View Full Version : Stopping or controlling growth


Rub'Rum
Sep 24, 2010, 06:41 AM
Do you stop or control growth of your cities? Do you decide "okay this one must not go beyond 6 citizens", or do you try to achieve maximum pop in all cities?

One of the least fun parts of Civ 4, for me, was making sure that each city didn't become unhappy the next turn. So I had an alarm to tell me when a city was about to grow, and I had to manually go and look if it was about to go unhappy, then decide to avoid growth, and half the time I forgot to re-allow growth again... I hated this.

In Civ 5, now I only have one big number, but that doesn't change the fact that in theory, I have to decide which cities to stop growing. Or maybe you guys just rely on the penalty applied at low levels of unhappiness? What I mean is that once you hit -1 or -2 unhappiness, the only penalty is to make growth 1/4th of the normal speed. That is a kind of auto-control on growth... But is it desirable to accept -1 to -2 unhappiness? It certainly makes further expansion more painful.

If that's the case, then I still have to select some cities to mark as "avoid growth", and I'm not sure how to choose them. And of course, I will still forget to uncheck these boxes later because my short term memory is horrible.

goodolarchie
Sep 24, 2010, 06:45 AM
Global happiness pretty much killed strategically stymieing your growth to avoid unhappiness, because there's no hard cap on it per-city. If you reach a point where one more population is going to turn your civ unhappy, plan ahead better next time. There are so many ways of dogpiling up your global :), and population is everything in this game, so by all means do NOT avoid growth!

belengthy
Sep 24, 2010, 07:03 AM
I don't see how you have to decide. If you happen to reach a point where don't want to loose anymore happiness, then turn off growth in all cities. When it spikes back up, turn it back on. If you really want to micromanage, you would maybe stop all but one or two cities when you get close to the limit you set for yourself. Just make sure you take a peak at your happiness every turn or two.

As far as working as an unhappy Civ, haven't tried it. I like Golden Ages too much.

Rub'Rum
Sep 24, 2010, 07:04 AM
I don't see how you have to decide. If you happen to reach a point where don't want to loose anymore happiness, then turn off growth in all cities. When it spikes back up, turn it back on. If you really want to micromanage, you would maybe stop all but one or two cities when you get close to the limit you set for yourself. Just make sure you take a peak at your happiness every turn or two.

As far as working as an unhappy Civ, haven't tried it. I like Golden Ages too much.

This is kind of what I've been doing. Consequently, I long for that one button that would stop growth in ALL cities instead of shifting through my 15 cities every time.

belengthy
Sep 24, 2010, 07:07 AM
This is kind of what I've been doing. Consequently, I long for that one button that would stop growth in ALL cities instead of shifting through my 15 cities every time.

Good point. Since they made happiness Global, there really should a be a Stop All Growth toggle somewhere.

Monsterzuma
Sep 24, 2010, 07:13 AM
Isn't the only thing unhappiness does that it halts growth? Halting growth to avoid... halting growth... is kind of pointless.

belengthy
Sep 24, 2010, 07:23 AM
Isn't the only thing unhappiness does that it halts growth? Halting growth to avoid... halting growth... is kind of pointless.

If that's all there was to it, then yes.

There's also the fact that excess happiness goes into a pool for a Golden Age. I would imagine going negative would take away from that pool (haven't seen it myself to verify), but either way I want that pool to fill up. Plus, if for some reason you can't find a way to solve the problem, your army begins to take the hit.

vtaenz
Sep 24, 2010, 07:27 AM
I don't see how you have to decide. If you happen to reach a point where don't want to loose anymore happiness, then turn off growth in all cities. When it spikes back up, turn it back on. If you really want to micromanage, you would maybe stop all but one or two cities when you get close to the limit you set for yourself. Just make sure you take a peak at your happiness every turn or two.

As far as working as an unhappy Civ, haven't tried it. I like Golden Ages too much.

I distinctly recall in one of the interviews that the devs said they were trying to get away from the city micromanagement. It seems like it's even more critical now than it was before since you absolutely have to maximize growth to a certain threshold and then shut down growth so as not to exceed it.

BaronVonCP
Sep 24, 2010, 07:32 AM
Is it really too much micro to set your cities to not have a food surplus? Work mines and trading posts instead of farms and/or run specialists rather than checking the 'avoid growth' box. Its quite a waste of your workforce to just be throwing the food they make into the ocean.


As someone else mentioned, short periods of unhappiness aren't the end of the world. However, golden ages are very powerful (especially when you are working mines and trading posts) so I would make it a goal to stay as happy as possible.

belengthy
Sep 24, 2010, 08:59 AM
Is it really too much micro to set your cities to not have a food surplus? Work mines and trading posts instead of farms and/or run specialists rather than checking the 'avoid growth' box. Its quite a waste of your workforce to just be throwing the food they make into the ocean.

The 'Avoid Growth' toggle does exactly what you suggest: it reassigns citizens to other tiles or as specialists.

JWideman
Sep 24, 2010, 09:58 AM
Unhappiness seems to be self-limiting. However, there IS a stage beyond mere unhappiness that cripples your entire civ AND military.

helemaalnicks
Sep 24, 2010, 10:50 AM
im still waiting for the game to hit my doormat, but this is my 2 cts anyway:

You have global happiness, which is disturbed by EVERY city and EVERY poppoint...

Then obviously, you'll need to stop growth in cities that don't have the basic infra up yet. First, you need a library, then you can grow a city beyond the necessary amount of pop needed to build that library. In the meantime, you better grow your capital and other more developed cities instead, since if they get 1 pop, they probably still have landtiles left (unless the city surpassed the 18 pop level, which is unlikely), and/or have beaker multipliers/goldmultipliers/hammermultipliers up, that make extra citizens much more usefull then an extra citizen in a newer city. So basically, the cities that have the best infra, can grow infinite, and the cities that are new, and have worse infra, don't get the growth untill they build the buildings needed to get it to work.

Obviously, an infra can be lib/uni, OR market/bank, but also HE/bar/mil ac. You obviously don't need all infra in every city, but for a city to grow, it needs at least 1 basic infra.

EDIT: apparantly, each city can use 3 rings, which is a total of 36(!!!) landtiles now. This means that limiting growth to 2-3 cities in the early stage is probably best, other cities are mainly usefull for rescource grabbing, and don't need any infrastructure of population. Correct me if i'm wrong.

tinstaafl
Sep 24, 2010, 11:04 AM
This is kind of what I've been doing. Consequently, I long for that one button that would stop growth in ALL cities instead of shifting through my 15 cities every time.

Ironically, while this wouldn't have made sense in civ4, it would have required exactly 3 mouseclicks.

Celevin
Sep 24, 2010, 11:11 AM
Halting growth is basically needed to play Darius well... I think he's one of the harder ones to take full advantage of his UA.

Kuthar
Sep 24, 2010, 03:04 PM
im still waiting for the game to hit my doormat, but this is my 2 cts anyway:

You have global happiness, which is disturbed by EVERY city and EVERY poppoint...

Then obviously, you'll need to stop growth in cities that don't have the basic infra up yet. First, you need a library, then you can grow a city beyond the necessary amount of pop needed to build that library. In the meantime, you better grow your capital and other more developed cities instead, since if they get 1 pop, they probably still have landtiles left (unless the city surpassed the 18 pop level, which is unlikely), and/or have beaker multipliers/goldmultipliers/hammermultipliers up, that make extra citizens much more usefull then an extra citizen in a newer city. So basically, the cities that have the best infra, can grow infinite, and the cities that are new, and have worse infra, don't get the growth untill they build the buildings needed to get it to work.

Obviously, an infra can be lib/uni, OR market/bank, but also HE/bar/mil ac. You obviously don't need all infra in every city, but for a city to grow, it needs at least 1 basic infra.

EDIT: apparantly, each city can use 3 rings, which is a total of 36(!!!) landtiles now. This means that limiting growth to 2-3 cities in the early stage is probably best, other cities are mainly usefull for rescource grabbing, and don't need any infrastructure of population. Correct me if i'm wrong.


Well a city begins to grow more slowly as it gets bigger, so if you only ever have, say, one city, then its going to take a really long time to get a citizen to work a new tile after awhile. Whereas with a new city you can get up to 3-4 tiles pretty quickly.

Feyd Rautha
Sep 24, 2010, 03:08 PM
FYI, "avoid growth" doesn't stop growth like in Civ V. It merely assigns civilians to non food tiles if possible. You can still grow with that box checked.

Syiss_
Sep 24, 2010, 05:56 PM
Because of global happiness, avoiding growth in certain cities is more important than in Civ IV. You only get so much happiness, and its important to use that happiness towards getting enough population in cities where you can get some multipliers. For instance in a production city, you need to have enough citizens to work the farms and any mines or other production tiles, plus engineer specialists if you want. However, its also very important to grab as many happiness resources as possible, and that can be done just as easily with a 1 pop city as a 6 pop city. Granted, more cities adds unhappiness too, but if you focus your population into cities with good tiles and multipliers, you will get more out of your total happiness.

Rub'Rum
Sep 24, 2010, 06:44 PM
Isn't the only thing unhappiness does that it halts growth? Halting growth to avoid... halting growth... is kind of pointless.

That's what I was wondering, I mean, did people rely on the self-limiting growth that arrives due to the unhappiness penalty? Apparently not, reading other people's comments. It's always good to have spare happiness to grow or expand.

However, there is more than just growth reduction... I accidentally got to -10 unhappiness in my first game and my production was also greatly diminished.

Is it really too much micro to set your cities to not have a food surplus? Work mines and trading posts instead of farms and/or run specialists rather than checking the 'avoid growth' box. Its quite a waste of your workforce to just be throwing the food they make into the ocean.

For me, it kind of is. I never micro-ed like that, I always used the "focus" buttons. I rarely choose my own tiles. I was never interested in Deity or immortal level in Civ 4 because of that reason. I played Prince and.. what's the next one, Monarch? Anyway, as it as been pointed out, using the focus buttons kind of do what you are describing.

s0nny80y
Jul 25, 2013, 11:45 AM
Avoiding growth gives room for early settlements to grow, something I just realized after trying to avoid a domination run for the first time. What also helps is buying buildings for these frontier cities while the taller cities focus on wealth.

livsbrand
Jul 25, 2013, 11:59 AM
In BNW you lose production and combat strength for every point of unhappiness. I like it. I personally micro every citizen (except in puppets), at least until the game is already won.

Falconiano
Jul 25, 2013, 12:51 PM
Is this in BNW?
Because in BNW you have shameful amounts of extra smiles, stopping growth is pure blasphemy there.

Let's just say, in the early turns you should not over-grow your non-capital cities because you still have to improve luxies (and you don't have SPs that generate :c5happy:) but from the moment you start NC you should also be starting mass growing.

Undefeatable
Jul 25, 2013, 09:59 PM
FYI, "avoid growth" doesn't stop growth like in Civ V. It merely assigns civilians to non food tiles if possible. You can still grow with that box checked.

Actually, it does. When a city that has "avoid growth" checked is about to hit the next pop level, it stops growing just one turn before that level. When you forget to uncheck that button after long periods of time, it stunts that city's output a lot.

In my first game as the Celts, I founded a city in an Earth map between the Tigris and Euphrates. My happiness took a hit, so I decided to hit the avoid growth button at pop 10. I forgot to uncheck that button for the rest of the game, and so what could've been my strongest city was left to obscurity as all my other settlements prospered. For most of the game I was trying to figure out what was wrong. :mischief:

Syailendra
Jul 26, 2013, 12:33 AM
In BNW you lose production and combat strength for every point of unhappiness.

really? Well this is good info, needs to put more attention to those smilies.

Zeigy
Jul 29, 2013, 02:52 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how effectively to use avoid growth. All the posts here from 2010 are outdated advice in BNW.

If I want to have a sprawling empire with many cities I have to keep population down to keep citizens happy. I actually don't use avoid growth, instead I actually remove citizens from food until the city is stagnated and put them as specialists or I put the citizens on tiles with lower food output but higher hammer or gold output. It's like a little mini game you get to play on the city screen.

Superwide
Jul 29, 2013, 03:26 PM
This reminds me of starving cities just to get happiness back.

Fluffball
Jul 29, 2013, 05:26 PM
FYI, "avoid growth" doesn't stop growth like in Civ V. It merely assigns civilians to non food tiles if possible. You can still grow with that box checked.

It allows your city to accumulate food to the point of actual citizen growth then no more. So you can't actually grow a new citizen with it ticked.

When shutting down a city because of lack of happiness i often turn it on to ensure i don't accidentally grow while leaving my citizens in growth mode and only when the food bar is full.i.e. the city will grow next turn will i then adjust the tiles to produce less or zero food.

When you get some extra happiness rolling in you can then grow all the cities you did that with instantly in a single turn.

dadam88
Jul 29, 2013, 06:32 PM
In reply to "Oh its so hard to micromanage my cities".

Learn and love the "end" button. Its a hotkey to switch to next city, really easy to stop growth or turn to all science. I can halt growth or set to production in my 15 cities in....what....15 seconds?

DrZ
Jul 30, 2013, 03:18 AM
In BNW you lose production and combat strength for every point of unhappiness. I like it. I personally micro every citizen (except in puppets), at least until the game is already won.

Yes, this, so basically if you are unhappy you have more than just 1/4 growth:
1. Production penalty for 1% for each unhappy, so you loose hammers
2. -1 point towards golden ages for each unhappy point
3. penalty in combat, but i am not sure how much for each point of unhappy

I would also add that over 10 unhappy you can't build settlers and over 20 barbs start to pop up and you need a few units to deal with those instead of having them fighting on the front line. Also ideology pressure will add a lot of unhappy so if you know you will be pressured you should keep a 'pool' of happiness to deal with that pressure.

Superwide
Jul 30, 2013, 07:39 PM
Yes, this, so basically if you are unhappy you have more than just 1/4 growth:
1. Production penalty for 1% for each unhappy, so you loose hammers
2. -1 point towards golden ages for each unhappy point
3. penalty in combat, but i am not sure how much for each point of unhappy

I would also add that over 10 unhappy you can't build settlers and over 20 barbs start to pop up and you need a few units to deal with those instead of having them fighting on the front line. Also ideology pressure will add a lot of unhappy so if you know you will be pressured you should keep a 'pool' of happiness to deal with that pressure.

Actually i've had rebels spawn after a few turns of below -10 happiness.

Kaigen
Jul 30, 2013, 10:56 PM
Actually i've had rebels spawn after a few turns of below -10 happiness.I once had rebels spawn because I started a single turn at -10 happiness due to an expiring trade deal. Tanks in point of fact. If you don't want to see rebels, maintain enough of a buffer that your trade deals can get cancelled and you're still above the -10 mark.

DrZ
Jul 31, 2013, 01:46 AM
Actually i've had rebels spawn after a few turns of below -10 happiness.

Hmm, this might be something that changed in BNW? I had no barbs spawn until 20 unhappy ever. Look at this thread for a really good understanding of unhappyness, although it's for vanilla, it's good: Complete Guide to Happiness (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=436022).

Chiatroll
Jul 31, 2013, 04:00 AM
This reminds me of starving cities just to get happiness back.
Yeah. Slavery building things to slow down growth on a high food city was fun in civ 4.

The combat pen is 2% per frowny face.

Calouste
Jul 31, 2013, 02:30 PM
Buy a hill tile, mine it, and the situation will solve itself.

drifter238
Jul 31, 2013, 05:48 PM
With food caravans now in the mix - my general growth strategy is to make the capital (with NC) as big as possible/practical as quickly as I can. This usually involves capping growth in other cities once they start growing beyond 6. I'll let them grow bigger than that if they have tiles with meaningful improvements, but otherwise I prefer to max out pop where I have the most science multipliers/specialist buildings.

IMO - the 'avoid growth' box is pretty helpful for avoiding micromanagement, as it still lets you work decent tiles, but just doesn't ever build a new citizen.

SicklyAlbatross
Jul 31, 2013, 08:30 PM
With food caravans now in the mix - my general growth strategy is to make the capital (with NC) as big as possible/practical as quickly as I can. This usually involves capping growth in other cities once they start growing beyond 6. I'll let them grow bigger than that if they have tiles with meaningful improvements, but otherwise I prefer to max out pop where I have the most science multipliers/specialist buildings.

Is that without religion? If I'm stacking local happiness boosts then it can quite easily go beyond 6 with shrines, temples, coliseums, zoos, etc. Or do you think it's not worth the maintenance on the buildings?

s0nny80y
Jul 31, 2013, 09:52 PM
If one were solely intent on world dom from the get go, I like to stop growth as soon as I research a spammable melee unit plus typically four basic archers.

Try the Zulu for this all or nothing approach.

More importantly, raze non-CS non-capitals and annex capitals and city-states when possible simply in order to manually stop growth. Tech will fall behind but it doesn't matter as long as you keep up the blitz...

...Zulus and opening Honor for the melee production bonus is the best way to make up for the lack of worked tiles due to unavailable citizens (in hindsight, I wish I captured my first worker instead of building one oh well).

Gulch
Aug 02, 2013, 07:34 AM
If you reach a point where one more population is going to turn your civ unhappy....

How can I check for this? When I open a city I don't see any way to see how much happiness it's generating.
(I have vanilla version by the way)

Horseshoe_Hermi
Aug 02, 2013, 09:08 AM
It's bad if your largest city isn't as large as someone else's, because then you don't have turbo hammer availability. And thus, for a given quantity of unhappiness to spread around, you might prefer to concentrate height in one city just to keep pace, leaving other cities smaller.

Avoiding growth does cost you exactly what it says, though. You're giving up the rapid increase in pop which is increase in science and, of course, the productivity of the particular cities you are "forsaking".