View Full Version : Babylonian Acoustics Policy Slingshot


lemmy101
Sep 24, 2010, 06:59 AM
Here's a strategy I have which can really give you a significant tech boost. I did it (quite ineffectually) in my first game and since then have been working on perfecting it.

(or have I just BROKEN THE GAME? :D)

------------------------------------------------------------

The strategy

Some of the cooler Social Policies come around when you hit the Renaissance, namely Freedom and Rationalism. If you're playing Babylonians then clearly science is the direction you should be focussing so completing the Rationalism branch early is a good thing. Freedom will also allow you to quickly get to the conditions to set up a Specialist Economy, namely the the ones that cut unhappiness and food consumed by specialists by half.

So the strategy is this. You start the game, and your main focuses are:

1) Consider saving up your unlocked Social Policies until you get to Renaissance, by right clicking 'Adopt Policy' when they are given to cancel the prompt to pick them. You can pick them later when you are ready by manually entering the policy screen. It is highly recommend you go for Calendar tech before anything else and try and get Stonehenge built. The increased culture will give you many more policies to pick after completing the strategy.

2) You beeline up the tech tree to Education, getting your free Great Scientist along the way through Writing. Build a library as soon as possible (after Stonehenge, if you build that) and then get some specialists working in there, so you can generate another Great Scientist (50% quicker than normal!). Save both these scientists, you'll need them soon. Get your specialists back out of your library for now to keep your city growing as much as possible. If you can't afford to generate the second scientist just one will do, but will slow down the process a little.

3) Research Philosophy, and then Theology. Once that is finished and you have your two Great Scientists you are ready to launch the slingshot! Use the Discover Tech ability of both your Scientists to get Education, then straight away Acoustics. This will push you into the Renaissance pretty damn early into the game. Of course your relatively low science output will mean that there is little point in continuing down here for a while, since the number of turns will be pretty damn high still, but the focus is purely to unlock those social policy branches then you are free to mop up any cheaper techs you neglected when beelining up here.

4) Spend all the policies you have available with your awesome new unlocked branches! Hurrah!

You can start unlocking the more advanced social policies more quickly, improving science and allowing better specialist super powers earlier in the game. Meanwhile you've been concentrating on Babylonia's strong point, science, unlocking libraries, universities and the National College along the way. Weeee!

It's quite scalable. You can take detours around other starting techs you need to get your civ off the ground, but obviously the quicker you get there the bigger the tech advantage you will get from it.

It will also work with any other civ, should you find it useful to do it. The only difference being the process of generating the Great Scientists will be a bit more expensive and take longer.

On Prince, Quick game, and building the following (in order):

Monument
Worker
Stonehenge
Library
Temple

I can get to Renaissance with 4 policies to choose and a 5th just around the corner by 800 BC However this was going for it 100% which may not always be possible depending on your surroundings. Either way you're going to be very vulnerable but this is to show its maximum potential.

How many policies you have obviously depending on factors like if you managed to build stonehenge. But here are some ideas on what you could unlock at this stage:

------------------------------------------------------------

Policy Spend Ideas:

Rationalism -> Secularism -> Free Thought -> Scientific Revolution

5 turn golden age
+2 science from specialists (each scientist specialist == academy)
+2 science from trade post
2 free technologies!

Make sure you save the last one for when you've got some expensive techs to take, since you need to take them there and then when you unlock the Scientific Revolution, perhaps research up to Astronomy which means you can take Navigation and Scientific Theory!! That gets you Public Schools, and only two techs away from the Industrial Era possibly as early as 800 BC if you went all out for it. How mental is that?

Freedom -> Civil Society -> Democracy

1/2 unhappiness from specialists
1/2 food consumption from specialists
50% extra generation of great people

Super super super fast and cheap Great Scientist generation, and double speed for all other Great People! Stick specialists in your library now and pump out Great Scientists like there's no tomorrow with much less impact on growth! Use each of these to pop techs or have yourself a ton of golden ages. Awesome.

Since this strat will work with other civs (albeit more slowly due to lacking the GS power) you could, for example, pick Greece or Siam and unlock a good chunk of Patronage (with the advantage you only have to progress to Medieval) or even go further and go straight for Order or Autocracy by making it up to Industrial (usually by popping up to Biology, or possibly Dynamite if you want to keep to the military side, though I expect this is the more expensive route)
------------------------------------------------------------

That is all.

I suspect this strategy will become less effective and need modifying as patches for balance come out. My suspicion the lack of having to take the policies when you get them is a bit OP perhaps, allowing you to avoid the less impressive early branches and stockpile a bunch for the later ones, along with Babylon being widely considered OP? We'll see how it goes! Until then, enjoy your bonkers science buildings in 800 BC madness. :D Hopefully me highlighting it will help the game balance after patches rather than ruin the game for anyone. ;)

Thanks to ottocrat for revealing that Social Policies can be taken at any time and not on the same turn you get them, which was news to me! And took away the limitation of avoiding culture buildings and increased the scope of this strategy quite a lot!

Lemmy

ottocrat
Sep 24, 2010, 07:21 AM
You might want to re-think how you are doing this:

When you accumulate enough culture for a social policy, you don't have to select one immediately. You can wait until you unlock the tree you want and then spend the culture.

This is what I do in most games. I save my policies until after I build the Great Library and then put them all into Patronage or Commerce. I typically go with Patronage but if you are on a map with lots of ocean (and few nearby city states), Commerce is better.

lemmy101
Sep 24, 2010, 07:24 AM
You can WHAT....? :D

Wow I had no idea you could do that. :|

Well if this is the case then I will work on version 2 of the strat, but I still think the benefits of early Renaissance policies is a great thing.

EDIT: Okay I've edited the strat. Thanks again ottocrat! :)

ottocrat
Sep 24, 2010, 07:36 AM
I completely agree with unlocking Rationalism for the Babylonians but don't intentionally limit your culture along the way. Encourage the culture and you'll be able to grab 3 or more policies in Rationalism the moment it unlocks.

I don't think there is one right plan to take (depends on your civ, depends on the map, etc...) but I can say that if you have many local city states, quickly filling out Patronage is awesome awesome awesome. I wiped out France in a game last night and my civ (India) has yet to build a military unit. I was gifted multiple catapults, horsemen, pikemen, archers etc... from my two allied, militaristic city states.

lemmy101
Sep 24, 2010, 07:38 AM
I completely agree with unlocking Rationalism for the Babylonians but don't intentionally limit your culture along the way. Encourage the culture and you'll be able to grab 3 or more policies in Rationalism the moment it unlocks.


For sure :D but of course if one was under the incorrect assumption that you HAD to take them when you got them, you can understand how the culture limiting would seem like a preferable thing.

Ahriman
Sep 24, 2010, 08:14 AM
You can WHAT....?

Wow I had no idea you could do that. :|

Me too. Nice. And you keep accumulating points for the next policy despite not selecting one now?

lemmy101
Sep 24, 2010, 08:16 AM
Me too. Nice. And you keep accumulating points for the next policy despite not selecting one now?

Yup check out the strategy now. You can just carve through about three or four of the Rationalism branch in one shot.

Ahriman
Sep 24, 2010, 08:22 AM
Wow, that seems like a design problem, considering how much weaker the early SP trees are than the later ones.

Actually the early trees seem unbalanced, there are a few very powerful effects that stay useful all game (oligarchy, Professional army) and a few very weak ones (landed elite, citizenship, collective rule).

Whereas later trees are just chock full of pwnage.

quill18
Sep 24, 2010, 09:43 AM
Wow, that seems like a design problem, considering how much weaker the early SP trees are than the later ones.

I guess the question is: How much are you giving up by running without any policies during the time it takes you to get up to ___________ age?

It does seem like the answer is "not much" if you really work your slingshot intelligently.

r_rolo1
Sep 24, 2010, 09:47 AM
Looks strong enough to be broken ... must try :D

P.S How about dropping the Oracle and/or the GL in the middle of this ? :devil: You are going to get the techs for those in the way ...

Martin Alvito
Sep 24, 2010, 10:56 AM
Yup, Babylon is OP. Just saying.

Doing this also boosts your defenses, which effectively is a passive hammer bonus, compensating you for a soft military. It also encourages the AI to get sucker punched by attacking cities it can't take. The AI seems to do a poor job of accounting for era disparities when determining whether or not it can conquer your cities. That can cost it a lot of hammers.

Oddly, you get the defense bonus whether or not you have military tech from that era. In principle, you could run up the tree to Penicillin without ever researching Mining, yet still have cities that put out damage as though they were garrisoned with modern rocket artillery. Either you should only get the defensive bonuses once you research something in the bottom half, or the bonuses should improve with each tech from that era you have.

You will probably get good results with your approach as described up to Immortal. On Deity, you just can't afford to run those specialists early, or you'll get behind in military and get dogpiled. You also have to get luxury techs quickly on Deity, which forces you off the optimal tech path.

But even on Deity you could simply save the first GS, build a Library once you have decent defenses, then proceed as you outlined. +2 science per Trading Post is effectively four pop points worth of research, and that will go a long way towards digging you out of the tech hole you end up in.

You'll need some serious culture to make this work. You can build Stonehenge on Deity, but doing so cripples your military and expansion. Unsure how best to solve that. Would require testing.

lemmy101
Sep 24, 2010, 11:01 AM
I'm not really sure it's Babylon that's OP as much as the great scientists tech popping generally. I've had pretty good results doing this with other civs, though obviously not as effective. but apart from only letting them pop a specific tech I'm not sure what they would do to nerf them.

SuperJay
Sep 24, 2010, 11:25 AM
Nice find! I stumbled across this same basic concept last night, figuring out the deferred social policy idea (purely by trial and error) and using Great Scientists to accelerate the age advancement and open up Renaissance early on. Not nearly as early as you could by pursuing this strat from day 1, but early enough. :) (I'm playing as the Romans, not Babylon, but Rome can give you a science advantage in cheaper Libraries and Universities in your cities.)

I did grab the Oracle and GL as early as possible, too - those free advances and social policies were key. Your policy spending ideas are right on, IMO. I actually went for Liberty in the early game just to help with expansion, but shifted gears a bit later on and am focusing on the Rationalism tree now. Will follow with Freedom, using the abilities you mentioned. :goodjob:

Martin Alvito
Sep 24, 2010, 12:18 PM
The GS tech pops aren't a problem in and of itself. That's symmetrical. All civs can do it. The AI is probably bad at maximizing the GS pops, but it gets so many production advantages that there need to be opportunities for skilled human decision-making to redress the balance.

The problem is that the free GS is coupled with a boost to GS production. That's an issue given the current tech tree. The opportunity cost to Babylon for popping the second GS is far too low compared to the value of early Rationalism. You expend the cost of the Library and 11 turns of 2 pop's production to do it. That's an investment of roughly a Warrior plus deferred growth, which is very minimal. Yet big Science early on lets you build an Ancient Era deterrent army (which you must build) using hammers, then efficiently throw gold at the problem of building a competitive military later. Compare the cost of rush buying modern units to the cost of building a weak early game unit, then upgrading it using gold.

Example: IIRC, a Chariot will upgrade to a Knight for 150 gold. The Chariot costs 270 to rush buy; the cheapest 6 strength rush buy option costs 200. The strength disparity is 3:1, and that understates the difference in value by a wide margin. A 6 Strength unit will die to just about anything by turn 75 on Deity, but the Knight can sustain multiple rounds of combat before perishing up into the early ADs.

This might tempt you to say that upgrades are too good. In a sense, I'd agree. It always makes sense to plan ahead and build badly outmoded units before you research the unit that removes them from the build queue. But you can only abuse this heavily if you have big early Science. Otherwise, you'll have to build appropriate units, rather than cheap outmoded ones, just to survive long enough to research the next tech.

If I wanted to nerf this, I'd either take away the opening GS, add another prereq to Acoustics, or nerf the percentage boost to GS production. 25% or 33% would be far more workable than 50%. The opportunity cost for building the second GS would then be several more turns of early production. That is very meaningful on Deity; the tolerances for having enough troops to deter AI aggression are not large.

Even if you take away Acoustics, using the extra GS for Civil Service would remain potent on a river start. You don't always start near a river, though, so that isn't such a problem.

But don't worry about your strategy getting nerfed in any patch in the near term. Babylon is making Firaxis and Take Two a lot of money right now. I bet that 80% of the people that bought digital deluxe would not have done so if the civ were balanced. That's $10 extra directly to the publisher, plus they're only paying online distribution costs rather than bricks and mortar, plus they don't have to produce and ship physical copies.

I commend the marketing department at Firaxis. It never ceases to amaze me how the concept of the patch (which led to digital content distribution) is simultaneously the best and worst development in the history of gaming.

iggymnrr
Sep 24, 2010, 12:25 PM
Interesting. I just finished a Babyon game with minimal attention to specialists and rationalism. Liberty and Order policies worked for me. I also posted on it. Techno Victory or something like that.

r_rolo1
Sep 24, 2010, 12:32 PM
Just tried it on King ( managed to get GL as well , but used it on CS, because my start has little food ) ...
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9913/civ5screen0002.jpg

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9503/civ5screen0003.jpg

This is really way too powerful ...

P.S As all of the CS near me are cultural I also banked almost 700 culture. How many SP does that give ? ;)

SuperJay
Sep 24, 2010, 01:31 PM
Interesting and thorough analysis, Martin. (If your SN is a reference to Clavell's Shogun, you win +5 additional Pepsi Points.)

Celevin
Sep 24, 2010, 01:35 PM
The real bonus is that city states give more benefits. In Ren, the maritime city states give +5/+3 food, and I don't even want to know how much cultural city states will benefit you that early.

This NEEDS to be patched. It's more than just the slingshotting, it's the spearhead to a new era just to get higher city state and other bonuses. It's breaking the game.

For ultimate cheesage for a fast cultural victory:
- Be Siam, and do the same thing (albeit a bit harder than Babylon - Ren is still possible).
- Choose the Patronage tree.
- Get the extra benefit from city states, extra benefit from Siam, which multiplies on Ren city state levels.

EDIT: Nevermind, just go for Freedom. Build Stonehenge with only 1 city with Babylon, then get double the culture from cities with wonders, and -25% cost on all future policies.

Dizzy75
Sep 24, 2010, 01:45 PM
Haha. Just from reading the Babylonians' unique trait, and what GSes could do, you could already tell they were overpowered. :) Marketing strategy, of course - just like any other game.

Combined with their fairly overpowered UU (8 ranged, 6 melee defense for just one starting tech and no strategic resources? Sign me up!), taking an early detour to pump out 1 or 2 bowmen can pay some pretty big dividends. They're capable of taking out barb encampments very quickly, and I've found them to be very nasty vs. enemy capitals in the early game. The extra gold you get can enable you to buy that first library, or additional workers, or a granary/watermill to free up another specialist, etc.

Martin Alvito
Sep 24, 2010, 01:51 PM
(If your SN is a reference to Clavell's Shogun, you win +5 additional Pepsi Points.)

+5 pts

asix79
Sep 24, 2010, 08:21 PM
It's a coincidence that I was trying to devise a similar strategy with Babylon tonight before coming across this thread. If lightbulbing techs was limited to certain areas, like it was in Civ 4, would that add some necessary balance? As it stands, every time you get a Great Scientist, you're given an Oracle from Civ 4 instantly.

iggymnrr
Sep 24, 2010, 08:32 PM
It's a coincidence that I was trying to devise a similar strategy with Babylon tonight before coming across this thread. If lightbulbing techs was limited to certain areas, like it was in Civ 4, would that add some necessary balance? As it stands, every time you get a Great Scientist, you're given an Oracle from Civ 4 instantly.
The GSs are powerful, no doubt. But having gotten to space by turn 350 as Babylon, while thinking that opening the rationalism branch was a mistake, I think something else is more powerful: city states and puppets. Particularly the food city state that can throw a ton of food at a gazillion puppets all at once. Thats a lot of beakers, no science enhanced trading posts required.

SeptimusOctopus
Sep 24, 2010, 09:33 PM
So if you have banked SP's then acquire more cities do you run the risk of losing social policies as their costs are increased?

At one point in a game today, I unlocked a social policy on a turn in which I was going to settle a city. I founded the city prior to selecting the policy, which caused me to basically miss out on the SP. Needless to say I felt kinda dumb.

Decaux
Sep 24, 2010, 11:21 PM
I'm having problems with actually getting Stonehenge on King, normal speed.
Sort of throws a wrench into the plan. I think Im going straight for it, trying a small map now.

r_rolo1
Sep 25, 2010, 05:26 AM
I never failed henge on king so far even with ramesses on the mix ... Do you have any decent prod tile in work range ( this because it is awfully expensive to pay it out at this stage ;) ) ?

Stormfather
Sep 25, 2010, 05:41 PM
I tried it with Marathon, Gandhi, Prince difficulty, and WOW.

I built Worker/Settler/Stonehenge/Library/Oracle in my capital and Great Library in my second city. My warrior was upgraded to a Spearman by a goody-hut, and I kidnapped another worker with him. Ignored $, focused on food and hammers, and hit the Renaissance in 1200 BC with three wonders and 5 policies ready to go. Focused on Freedom, getting the 2x culture in wonder cities, cheaper future civic cost, specialists eat half food, and + great person birth-rate. I'm currently building the Hagia Sofia to crank out even more great persons...

Again, wow. Excellent strategy!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5024537300_39827d7707_z.jpg

EDIT

And 60 years later, Songhai and England declared war on me. I have a spearman and 204 gold. :sad: I knew it was a mistake for India to trust England.


EDIT 2

Aack... they got me!

bhavv
Sep 25, 2010, 05:47 PM
I've been playing babylon, but been taking Piety and Patronage to try for culture wins.

i realised that trying for culture is hopeless unless you are playing as India, France, Aztec, Siam or Greece, and if playing Babylon you may as well use your advantage to go for science / rationalism and space race instead.

I'm going to try this tactic now, I wonder how long it will be before babylons UA is nerfed :p

Also, dont forget to build great library + oracle for the freebies and GS points, Porcelain tower too (+2 GS points and another GS), and maybe Kremlin too as it gives a GS point, and makes your UB much more powerful.

Also, build national epic + garden in your GS farm ASAP.

Theres also a wonder that gives +33% great person spawn rate, i usually build that in my second city along with angkor wat.

lemmy101
Sep 25, 2010, 05:48 PM
EDIT

And 60 years later, Songhai and England declared war on me. I have a spearman and 204 gold. :sad: I knew it was a mistake for India to trust England.

And so the weakness of going all out 100% is revealed. :D I think the trick here to make it actually useful in the field is to sacrifice a bit of the speed of executing it to make sure you do not leave other aspects of your empire completely lacking. Finding that balance is key.

Stormfather
Sep 25, 2010, 05:53 PM
And so the weakness of going all out 100% is revealed. :D I think the trick here to make it actually useful in the field is to sacrifice a bit of the speed of executing it to make sure you do not leave other aspects of your empire completely lacking. Finding that balance is key.

Exactly. :cool: Gandhi's sacrifice was not in vain.

bhavv
Sep 25, 2010, 05:53 PM
And so the weakness of going all out 100% is revealed. :D I think the trick here to make it actually useful in the field is to sacrifice a bit of the speed of executing it to make sure you do not leave other aspects of your empire completely lacking. Finding that balance is key.

With babylon though, you can keep any city defended from attack with just 2-3 bowmen.

With India, use War Elephants which are even cheaper, but get owned by spears and pikes.

King Jason
Sep 25, 2010, 06:13 PM
What's funny is that I was just coming here to do a Babylon OCC cultural write-up, which specifically detailed this sling-shot.. and here you are.

If you're playing Babylon, I can think of almost no reason not to embrace this slingshot. Personally, I spent my first 3 SPs on Tradition so I could ensure the construction of the wonders I wanted (turned out to be a smart idea since Egypt was in my game), but then I didn't purchase a single policy until freedom, netting myself the discount on SPs.

I lost interested in doing an actual write-up of the game, but the bullet-points

~Emphasize Science specialists (even if you're not Babylon, cause this will hugely contribute to your science rate), and be very mindful of their use. Emphasize technologies that offer buildings and wonders before military tech, as with siege weapons and tactical planning, along with the proper defensive procedures (semi-detailed below), you can fend off larger, slightly more advanced military forces. Eventually you'll reach a point where military techs are the only ones you can really research, and you'll catch up appropriately enough... in the end, by the time I got cannons, everyone else still had cannons too.

~Patronage is a wise investment in so many insane ways. For the culture win, it nets to more culture (cultural), it increases your growth (Maritime), and the last, beautiful piece of the puzzle... 40% (at least) to 60% of my military came from city-states (Militaristic), whether it was their gifted units or their military contribution as at the very least a distraction for my enemy. This point is important because in OOC you find yourself constructing very many buildings and wonders, so if you can shave any turns off of unit production, then great.

~Piety is another great branch, primarily to fuel a deficit spending. You might wonder how that translates.. Well, Golden ages. GAs in this game are godly, and I often found myself with a surplus of several hundred gold, but losing GPT when not in one. There's two ways I managed to never fall in the deficit and the first one involved golden ages because how I handled my Ages (I did use some specialists) allowed me to bring in so much income during the golden age, that I wouldn't hit zero gold before the next one.

~Great merchants... There came a time where I stopped emphasizing scientists, which sounds crazy as Babylon I'm sure, but less so with other civs. Anyway, I switched to Merchants because my gold was becoming a huge issue and what I would do is perform trade missions to my city-state allies. This provided both a huge boost to my gold, and even better, a huge boost in city-state rep. In fact, I think this is a strategy in itself ~ You're not paying city-states to be your allies with this method... Technically, you're getting paid to have them as allies.

~Defense: Patches of rough terrain are your friends. I was lucky enough to have a monster of a defensive position in my game. I had coast to my east, then a patch of hill that was an area 3 tiles west, and 3 tiles ne (so one big block of hill).. top it all off with a river surrounding this patch of mountain. Basically, with rough terrain everywhere, then everyone is reduced to movement... which means build tons of siege and watch your enemy get slaughtered. Especially since I took both Tradition and Order policies trees, giving me a total of 58%(?) combat bonus in my territory. I butchered anyone that came near me and I had a military 1/4th the size of everyone else at best. Not related to strategy really, but I even took the fight to my enemies from time to time, liberating city-states or razing their cities.

I think that's it. Oh ~ important piece of information: I did the OCC on King.

bhavv
Sep 25, 2010, 10:04 PM
I just tried this, and its great:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1280/civ5screen0007.png (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0007.png/)

I took Tradition and Aristocracy to help me spam my wonders, then didnt spend any more policies. I were just one turn away from completing Porcelain Tower when a research agreement finished and gave me acoustics.

I took Constitution > Free Speech first to reduce the spend on policies after that, and also took Civil Society > Democracy so Babylon can keep on working two Scientist specialists and grow better, and my future Great Scientists will take much less time.

I still need to build National Epic and a Garden, but had wonders to build first plus a monument, library and temple which are more important.

I have my second city building Hagia Sophia and will build a third after Porcelain Tower is finished.



Ok, this is just seriously broken and too powerful:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1743/civ5screen0009.png (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0009.png/)

o.O!!!!!

Xoatl_169
Sep 25, 2010, 10:32 PM
yeah i figured something like this out in my own game, Im way ahead of anyone of the comps.

bhavv
Sep 26, 2010, 12:14 AM
Ok, tbh this isnt actually good, or nice, its just WAAAAAAAY broken:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3839/civ5screen0012.png (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0012.png/)

Well, its nice for the human player against the AI, but I can see it now, Babylon will be banned from HoF game submissions, they are even more powerful than Inca were in Civ IV.

r_rolo1
Sep 26, 2010, 05:32 AM
The problem is that you can this without babylon ... it will only take some more turns to get the 2 GS to bulb Acoustics. But yes, babylon GS bonus + ability of bulbing anything with a GS is bound to cheesiness, no turn around that.

P.S People of HoF are already discussing kicking babylon out :D That is quite a feat if you think that the game is out in less than half month ;)

bhavv
Sep 26, 2010, 06:34 AM
Yea, you can do it without Babylon, but babylo still gets GS's twice as fast.

Plus they have bowmen for defence, and those things are crazy strong throughout the Ancient era.

I even had them standing up against Hoplites and Companion Cavalries in previous games with careful positioning and sniping. They still remain usable later on too and dont really need upgrading to crossbows, I could use them all the way to cannons, which I could actually get very fast with all those GS's.

I started a new game now increasing the difficulty to king, I still cant be bothered to play through full games, even though they give steam achievements too :(

bhavv
Sep 26, 2010, 07:12 AM
I made it in 335 BC this time on king difficulty:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9438/civ5screen0023.png (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0023.png/)

Before I used to waste the first two on Philosophy and Theology, picking up Civil Service with GLIB. Now I tech Philosophy while building GLIB using shift - enter after it completes, and now I'm teching Theology because bulbing Education + Acoustics first is much better.

Dizzy75
Sep 26, 2010, 07:42 AM
I tried it with Marathon, Gandhi, Prince difficulty, and WOW.

I built Worker/Settler/Stonehenge/Library/Oracle in my capital and Great Library in my second city. My warrior was upgraded to a Spearman by a goody-hut, and I kidnapped another worker with him. Ignored $, focused on food and hammers, and hit the Renaissance in 1200 BC with three wonders and 5 policies ready to go. Focused on Freedom, getting the 2x culture in wonder cities, cheaper future civic cost, specialists eat half food, and + great person birth-rate. I'm currently building the Hagia Sofia to crank out even more great persons...

Again, wow. Excellent strategy!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5024537300_39827d7707_z.jpg

EDIT

And 60 years later, Songhai and England declared war on me. I have a spearman and 204 gold. :sad: I knew it was a mistake for India to trust England.


EDIT 2

Aack... they got me!

Haha, 1400 culture by 1200 BC - that's crazy. Still, though, I guess no military = death?

r_rolo1
Sep 26, 2010, 07:50 AM
You have time to make some military if you don't aim for extra speed ... that or a detour to CS ( via GLib ) to allow upgrade warriors to pikes will give you something to rest on top of.

Sure , this also depends of the proximity with other civs and such. In my try I had my part of the continent linked by two land bridges to the rest of it ( forming a inside sea ) and I had a CS right on one of them. That obviously helped the AI of not thinking on going to my town ... that and my pikeman, probably :D

bhavv
Sep 26, 2010, 08:08 AM
I manage to make do with 2 - 4 bowmen at strategic points.

Enemy warriors / spearmen / archers, and even hoplites dont stand a chance against well placed bowmen.

Tibblers
Sep 26, 2010, 09:46 AM
Right after you complete the slingshot, you need to focus your attention on the military techs and produce a few units (or buy them outright) because the AI will hate you.

King Jason
Sep 26, 2010, 10:12 AM
random sidenote; two Civs broke off diplomatic relations because I was hogging so many wonders. Eventually, this led to war.

But yea, they actually contacted me and said something to the effect of; "You're greed in stockpiling wonders has blah blah blah we're canceling our pact of cooperation."

GrandPoohBah
Sep 26, 2010, 05:36 PM
Am I missing something? I can't seem to select Babylonians as a civ.

Am i missing a patch or something?

King Jason
Sep 26, 2010, 05:43 PM
Am I missing something? I can't seem to select Babylonians as a civ.

Am i missing a patch or something?

Babylon is exclusive to the Digital Deluxe edition from Steam or D2D.

tibbles
Sep 26, 2010, 11:21 PM
Can you elaborate more on the purpose of the slingshot and how to leverage it?

I just finished a game on King where I applied this (as Siam, don't own the deluxe), hit Accoustics in like 350bc. Not as good as detailed here, but pretty fast, right?

But I wasn't quite sure what to do next :P My military was still back at warriors, so that was behind. And all the other cool stuff from the later ages was still locked behind classical era prereqs. My city-state bonuses were nice, but I lacked the cashflow to ally with as many as I'd have liked...So all in all, I didn't feel like I gained much beyond being able to say I was 3 eras ahead.

edit: I did still win easily, just it felt kinda silly hitting Accoustics then going back to finish up worker techs and horseback riding for my uu.

CornPlanter
Sep 27, 2010, 02:44 AM
@ Tibbles

It's for unlocking a bunch of civics (however are they called in this game) very early. Like Rationalism tree. It gives you an edge. Game winning position immediately. I know some people reported fails due to AI DoWs and insufficient military but don't forget it's just a few days the game is out. Few more weeks and this strategy will be tailored from slingshot spearhead to a nuclear warhead to victory with no slightest possibility of failing.

And this is just one, or one of a few OP strategies discovered within the first few days. There will be more.

Then again, Firaxis didn't ever manage to win AP-diplomacy while testing Civ4BtS. And it turned out to be the most cheesy victory hands down. Maybe we have the same case here.

Makes me sad.

bhavv
Sep 27, 2010, 03:16 AM
The thing is with this slingshot, i'm really not bothered about Rationalism. I've tried it, and it is really inferior to Piety IMO.

I'd rather take Tradition / Piety / Patronage / Freedom / Commerce as my 5 social trees, and try for a culture win (still not managed yet, just got up to 1850 AD in an OCC and got attacked while I still only had a single warrior :x. I didnt have a very good start for OCC though, no marble and not much production).

fugazi
Sep 27, 2010, 03:52 AM
Rationalism seems to be more in favor of bigger empires, if you were to ask me. In my current game with France, I'm running two food cities and two gold cities:
-The food cities obviously support a large population (which increases beaker output) and specialists (which increases beaker and great people output).
-The gold cities allow me to stay alive, purchase city-state allies, upgrade/buy troops and to grab buildings such as a workshop.

It's a little past 1AD now and my 2nd city, Orleans, is pumping out 80 science a turn :| I'm sure it can be better, but for my 3rd game on Prince it's quite nice.

adam_grif
Sep 27, 2010, 04:00 AM
Duel sized Continents on Prince, works every time.

Once you start cranking out libraries in all your cities your great scientist rate is just stupid, I ended up winning the game by landing a single Mech Infantry next to his capital and taking it the next turn in the early 1700's.

Cyberian
Sep 27, 2010, 04:22 AM
Seems to be a very nice strategy.

Anybody has the guts to try it on deity? Could actually work with using some Bowmen to fend off those other civs.
Would really like to see if it worked. Got not enough time to try all those civs and strats that I want to.

MkLh
Sep 27, 2010, 08:59 AM
This can be done also without Babylon (which I as a boxed copy owner don't have), by getting Education from GL and bulbing Acoustic with just one GS. Tested only in King, may be risky/impossible in higher levels. Scientific Revolution is a policy to shoot for, since combined with your second scientists (with GL it comes quite fast even w/o Babylon) you can do a three tech bulb from Steel/Physics to Rifling, which may lead to extreme early Rifling if you time it right.

Dizzy75
Sep 27, 2010, 09:06 AM
Has anyone noticed that "Free Thought" is giving only +1 science per trading post, even though it says +2? I'll try to post screenshots tonight, if I remember.

[Edit] Seems to be confirmed: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=382904

I'm guessing it's either a bug or an undocumented nerf.

the_dong146
Sep 27, 2010, 02:05 PM
Well just pulled this off in King - quite easily actually. Got it by around 850BC - and subsequently completed both Oracle/GL. I actually popped Archery from a ruin - so that helped a lot with an early bowman running around decimating the barbarians and letting me buy workers. Even ended up with an extra GS that I immediately used to grab CS!

Unsurprisingly the neighbours weren't so fond of me in the end - but a quick shift to military build up soon took care of all my problems - and this is even with being completely ironless despite controlling a third of a Tiny Pangaea continent.

Later on used a GS/Scientific Revolution as mini-sling shot as MkLh mentioned above to grab Rifling early(ish) followed up with a Golden Age (the GS just kept giving) so that I could actually build them. Siam and England were not pleased to see 25 strength riflemen meeting their Pikes and Horsemen

Bottomline: This is broken

Dizzy75
Sep 27, 2010, 02:19 PM
With additional GSes after Rifling you can also bulb Chemistry -> Fertilizer -> Dynamite pretty early, though you might have to backfill some techs with regular science first. Artillery w/Rifles that early is game over. It also vaults you into the Industrial Age, so hello Autocracy!

tibbles
Sep 28, 2010, 12:05 AM
I've got the slingshot down pretty well, 875bc w/o Babylon my last try on King, no marble. I self researched thru Theocracy and bulbed and Great Libraried for Education and Accoustics.

Still working the leveraging bit :P I tried to go for quick Rifling, but misread the above to think I could bulb it straight from the slingshot, badly mistimed it with all the prereqs then got sidetracked, so I lost much of my headstart.

bhavv
Sep 28, 2010, 12:20 AM
I've got the slingshot down pretty well, 875bc w/o Babylon my last try on King, no marble. I self researched thru Theocracy and bulbed and Great Libraried for Education and Accoustics.


Thats a bad idea, its a waste not to use great library to pick up Civil Service. Going for the acoustics slingshot shouldnt be a reason to ignore Cicil Service at its expense.

tibbles
Sep 28, 2010, 01:52 AM
Doh, realizing that now, though it does take 1 less GS. I made a test game and reached Rifling in 350ad. Problem is w/o Civil Service I cant upgrade my 1 warrior all the way, 10 more turns to get the cash to buy a new one, or 12 turns to build one. Oh well.

bhavv
Sep 28, 2010, 02:15 AM
Doh, realizing that now, though it does take 1 less GS. I made a test game and reached Rifling in 350ad. Problem is w/o Civil Service I cant upgrade my 1 warrior all the way, 10 more turns to get the cash to buy a new one, or 12 turns to build one. Oh well.

You only need 2 GS's to do this, and thats easy peasy with Babylon.

You save your GS from writing, Build Glib while teching Philosophy (should already have trapping), pick up civil service after Philosophy is finished, then research Theology while running two Scientist specialists in your library. As soon as your first GS is born on top of your free one from writing, and Theology is complete, you use your two GS's to bulb Education and Acoustics.

Easy peasy. Dont bulb anything before Education, it isnt worth it. I have managed this with no problem at all several times on King difficulty and built Monument > Worker > Settler > Stonehenge > Great Library > Pyramids > Oracle. You shouldnt build anymore workers, settlers or units after that in Babylon, you devote it fully to churning out GS and GE wonders, the only building needed are Monument, Library, Temple, University, Garden, and National Epic, National College, and later on Hermitage and Ironworks plus other science buildings. You might also want to add Granary and Watermill to allow Babylon to run extra specialists, and a workshop, windmill, and factory to boost production and open up some engineer slots - Youre going to want to try and get as many GE's as you can as well as GS's. I put Chichen Itza, Ankgor Wat, and Sistine Chapel in my second city, and then I try to make a third city as a gold farm.

Overall it is very expensive, time consuming and difficult, but most definitely possible. In two OCC's at King difficulty, I even managed to put Chichen Itza and Sistine in Babylon too, you get enough tech lead to allow it and just try to get as much production and great engineers as possible. It will be much easier once the map editor is out to guarantee a flat tile riverside start with access to marble, lots of hills, and some gold / silver / gems resources to provide your gold. My current game had 4 gold resources around Babylon, but no marble, and my previous was a lame Jungle start with lots of dyes and spices, very little production and no marble, but I still managed really well.

The problem in both those games was one AI on my island gobbing up all the others and becoming super powerful, and then declaring on me with a mass army of rifles and cannons after 1800 AD, right when I'm nearing completion of an OCC culture win :(. First it was Oda, and then Elizabeth.

The policies I'm using are Tradition > Freedom > Patronage / Piety > Commerce. I take Aristocracy first, then save everything until acoustics. Then I unlock Freedom and take Free Speech and the one above it (+100% culture in wonder cities, -25% policy cost). After that I open up Piety and Patronage for the top two policies in each, and then Commerce for the Gold boost. After that I try to focus on completing those branches, but end up getting rofflestomped by whichever AI has swallowed up the whole continent.

the oob
Sep 28, 2010, 03:03 AM
In a multiplayer game I was just in, I was unable to use the Great Library to get chivalry, despite having it's only prerequisite (horseback riding). Is this due to a recent patch?

bhavv
Sep 28, 2010, 03:30 AM
In a multiplayer game I was just in, I was unable to use the Great Library to get chivalry, despite having it's only prerequisite (horseback riding). Is this due to a recent patch?

Chivalry has three pre reqs, horseback riding, civil service and currency. Look on the technology tree.

So if you want Chivalry asap, you still wan to take Civil Service with Glib.

bhavv
Sep 28, 2010, 03:41 AM
I got a nice high production start with marble and some food:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4571/civ5screen0029.png (http://img580.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0029.png/)

Its a standard game, not OCC at king difficulty, continents, epic speed if anyone wants to give it a go.

bhavv
Sep 28, 2010, 05:18 AM
Heres my current attempt, I expanded much more aggressively this time, building two settlers (one in the capital, then one in the second city), and rush buying another two to quickly fill in the brilliant city locations that I had. I have Civil Service and Acoustics at 750 BC.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5969/civ5screen0032.jpg (http://img534.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0032.jpg/)

I dont plan on building anymore cities, and hopefully his will be my first successful culture win. I'll need to rush buy a load of bowmen for defense next.

Elizabeth attacked with around 4 warriors, 2 spearmen, and 2 archers .....

I pwned them all with just two bowmen :king:

The AI is that stupid.

Siberic
Sep 28, 2010, 06:04 AM
If I am correct, adding Chivalry as prerequisite for Acoustics will pretty much disable this slingshot. Even with Babylon.

r_rolo1
Sep 28, 2010, 06:21 AM
If I am correct, adding Chivalry as prerequisite for Acoustics will pretty much disable this slingshot. Even with Babylon.
Or Physics ... it would even make more RL sense :D

Siberic
Sep 28, 2010, 07:38 AM
I got to thinking:

What if you do make this slingshot - apparently a number of ppl have managed to do it with ease.
You don't pick any SPs, just keep them in stock. Then, you sell all your cities to the AI (like described in another thread called "The best way to achieve cultural victory").

I wonder how many SPs would you acquire. Does anyone know the cost progress of SPs for just one city?

Celevin
Sep 28, 2010, 07:48 AM
The best way to remove this slingshot is to make a great scientist give you a flat amount of science that scales with era.

Secondly, to change eras so they happen when a certain amount of science is reached, and not on specific techs.

r_rolo1
Sep 28, 2010, 07:48 AM
Well, i can't say for sure, but i bought 6-7 SP in the atempt I posted results in page 1 ... with something like 700 culture banked ( nearby cultured CS grateful for taking barbs out ).

If pushed to limits IMHO this could give you pretty early culture wins. just conquer AI cities and puppet them ... you still get the culture from them, but your SP counter thinks that you only have your own cities :devil:

bhavv
Sep 28, 2010, 09:31 AM
Does this look like I'll get a culture win? I forgot to take more cities and make puppets, I captured London and spared Elizabeths other two cities because I dont like conquering people :(

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4559/civ5screen0037.png (http://img811.imageshack.us/i/civ5screen0037.png/)

Im at peace with everyone, but Rome is at permanent war with all city states which really doesnt help me out much as I have 4 of them allied.

tibbles
Sep 29, 2010, 11:44 AM
I hope I'm not the only one still interested in this thread, but a few more questions:

First and foremost, I'm still a little confused on the strength of this at high levels. The first page seems to be all people claiming it's broken good, but then the 2nd page kind of petered out or had examples of people getting DOWed before the slingshot kicked in. Is this viable at Immortal or Diety?

Second, what is the strength of Civil Service if you're slingshotting for Rifling? You recommended grabbing it along the way. I discovered the hard way you need CS to upgrade warrior>spear>pike>rifle, but when slingshotting I generally only have 1-2 warriors to upgrade and 1-2 farms. CS is a really expensive tech for what appears to be so-so immediate gains. Of course it is on the path to higher techs, but I'm going rifles, not culture.

I've got a lot more questions on leveraging this for culture, but I think most stem from not having a good grasp of how to culture win (pre2000ad :P) in general, so will save them until I read some other threads.

HuntingX
Sep 29, 2010, 11:53 AM
I've gotten acoustics at 1600 BC without really trying; you can definitely get it 1800 or even earlier if you pay attention, I think. But I think the whole tree is a waste; doesn't contribute anything at all, and immediately gets you killed by the rest of the world at higher difficulty levels.

tibbles
Sep 29, 2010, 12:02 PM
I don't have access to Babylon, so my best was like 900bc acoustics and 200ad rifling. But with work getting in the way I've yet to play a game higher than king to see if I could live to 200ad to leverage.

I'm curious if some of the first calls for massive OP were from Civ4 thinking where slingshotting lets you backfill in trades?

r_rolo1
Sep 29, 2010, 12:08 PM
Well, i continued my game on king and it was quite peaceful until Biz decided to attack me because i had gobbled one CS that he cared about. By that time I already had rifles... and he had a catapult at best. i finished the war with ease, as you can imagine ;)

Dizzy75
Sep 29, 2010, 12:12 PM
I think getting it that early (on normal speed?) definitely means sacrificing defense. I've been adjusting this a bit to make room for defense and some worker techs. It's still seemed quite powerful even if you wait until ~600BC to get to Renaissance.

tibbles
Sep 29, 2010, 12:16 PM
Yes, I play on normal. So I got rifles in 200 yet it took until like 900ad to win vs only 3 ais. I thought 2 movement base units would make my troops feel faster than in Civ4, but they don't. No preroading anywhere.

delra
Sep 29, 2010, 02:56 PM
Babylon is insanely good when you count all the wonder and policy bonuses you can possibly get to great person birth rate. You can launch one golden age after another - or take techs you'd have no dreams of taking for centuries.

800 AD I am gunning for Navigation already. Bottom part of the tree I am inventing myself, top part great scientists are handling.

With better walls and archers you don't need to tech much to defend yourself, just sit tight on 2-3 cities and use Rationalism and Freedom bonuses to boost your insanely good tech rate even more.

Oerdin
Sep 29, 2010, 05:02 PM
I just did this and it worked well though I wasn't disciplined enough to wait for two expensive techs before getting the two free techs in the rationalism tech tree (and it is a parallel tech tree; that's ). I also ended up getting three great scientists to do my sling shot but, once again, there were no expensive techs to grab so I really ended up wasting one great scientist.

In the end though this has great potential. The one draw back is that unit maintenance goes up very fast as you change ages so that you end up pay a lot of money for workers who are doing just basic upgrades. That's the only draw back I can see right off the bat though, honestly, I would get at least one scout at the beginning because the goodie huts/ruins are so valuable in Civ5 it seems more effective to get the free techs, free pops, free unit upgrades (I love those archers who keep their scout abilities especially Babylonian archers who are much better then regular archers) other then that this strategy is great and you can really sling shot yourself into a superior tech position.

Zenstrive
Sep 29, 2010, 06:39 PM
So this will not work with Arabia...it has no bonuses whatsoever if played as one city civ....It needs to be played like the Abbasid period of the Caliphate: expand everywhere with the camel archer and enrich self with luxuries :D

Martin Alvito
Sep 29, 2010, 07:30 PM
First and foremost, I'm still a little confused on the strength of this at high levels. The first page seems to be all people claiming it's broken good, but then the 2nd page kind of petered out or had examples of people getting DOWed before the slingshot kicked in. Is this viable at Immortal or Deity?

Works fine on Immortal. Spun it up on Deity and managed to dodge the early DOW this time. Ate a DOW at turn 70 but by then you're fine. I think I have a severe diplo exploit that will enable any builder strategy, but I want to run a few more tests before I post.

bhavv
Sep 30, 2010, 03:16 AM
Im doing it on king difficulty, and in most games I dont get DOWed until the end game when one civ has already conquered everyone else.

In my last game, I only had 4 full policy trees, and only one policy in my 5th at 1950 AD, so I gave up.