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Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 01:26 AM
Economy Mod




DISCONTINUED. WILL NOT FUNCTION WITH THE CURRENT VERSION OF CIV5.




I have a few issues with the economy in vanilla civ5. Specifically, techs come far too fast compared to your unit and building production rate, certain resources are useless, and hills are absolutely required for a successful city; Not enough production without them.

With this mod, I seek to rectify those issues.


v5 Changelog:


Included the new version of Robk's Info Addict mod.
Fixed an interface issue that caused problems for users with high-res interfaces.
Reduced flatlands penalty to 10%, from 25%. (Testing this, likely to drop it altogether)


Comprehensive Changelog:


Many small UI tweaks

Clicking the GPT display brings up the Economy Screen.
Unit XP displayed as a string, rather than bar
Clock added, fully integrated into the bar
etc


Included Modcomps:

BuildQueue mod fixed

Purchasing items no longer affects the queue
Functionality changed:

Mouse click = Item is selected for production (overwriting any queue!) and production display closed. IE, behaves as though the queue was not active.
Shift-click = Item is added to the rear of the queue
Ctrl-click = Item is added to the front of the queue.


Queue is always enabled. Checkbox is invisible, production display only expands if queue size is greater than 1 (IE, you actually have something queued up after what is being built)
Basically, it works like the queue did in Civ4. It is always on, but you only have to mess with it if you choose; Very unobtrusive, simple to understand, and far better than the default implementation.


ArgentumStudio's Resource Info Panel included

Located in the InfoPane (where tech progress is shown, for those who don't know the terminology), this panel displays all resources you possess, how many you have, how many are used, and how many you gain/lose via trade. It may be sorted by name or amount possessed; Each section (Luxury, Strategic, or Bonus) may be individually collapsed.
A picture is worth a thousand words: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=267984&stc=1&d=1286693212


Csebal's Extended Plot Mouseover included

Massively upgrades plot mouseover text. Only way I can really phrase it. :lol:
Again, a picture is worth a thousand words: http://i51.tinypic.com/1zfo9qs.png


BlakeTheGreat's Great People Info Mod included.

Adds a display to the top panel detailing what your next specialist will be, what city it will be from, and what your progress to other specialists is.
And again, a picture: http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx229/innmate1436394/GPMeterSS.jpg


Thalassicus's Unofficial Patch included (mostly)

An assortment of small fixes, largely concerning text errors.
Left out: Wealth fix (already made my own), Ancient Ruins upgrade result change.


Xienwolf's FlagPromotions included

Adds a new Minimap Option which displays a unit's promotions below their flag icon; Very useful, particularly when you have a lot of them on a unit.
Sadly, only functions in standard view, not Strategic View. I'll have to get Xienwolf looking at that. ;)


Kael's ModList and No UnitFlag option included

New screen, the Mod List, which displays active mods for your game.
New minimap option which allows you to disable unit flags in standard view. Honestly, only included because it was in Xienwolf's mod. :lol:


Robk's Info Addict

This mod revives the graphs from civ4; It is quite detailed, a very nice addition indeed.
Screenshot: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=269345&d=1287464908




Gameplay changes

All tech costs increased by 50%.
All building costs decreased by 20%.
All unit costs decreased by 20%.
Wealth process bumped up to 30%, from 25.
Trading Camps are buildable on all resources.
Workshop Improvement added; +1 :hammers:, -1 :food:, +1 :hammers: with Steam Power, requires flatlands.
Flatlands now only provide a 10% defensive penalty, down from 25%.
Bonus resources now handled similarly to Strategic resources; This change affects Wheat, Cow, Sheep, Deer, Fish, and Banana.

Resources may have 2 or 4 instances per tile.
New buildings added which require these resources.

Bakery - +1 :food:, +20% :food: stored after growth, requires Wheat
Brewery - +3 :), -2 :hammers:, requires Wheat
Leatherworker - +1 :), grants the Leather Armor promotion to all Melee, Mounted, Recon, and Archer units, requires Cow

Leather Armor - +25% Defense


Weaver - +2 :culture: for any improved Sheep, Dye, Silk, or Cotton near the city. Requires at least one of these resources within range of the city. Requires Sheep.
Hunting Lodge - +1 :hammers: on Forest tiles near the city. Requires Deer.
Plantation House - +15% :gold: and :hammers:, 3 :gold: Maintenance Cost, -2 :culture:, requires Banana.

Culture penalty removed with the Freedom Social Policy
Originally intended to use unhappiness, for some ungodly reason however Firaxis chose to not allow buildings to grant unhappiness (Not just display, doesn't work at all; Tested it). Given that, I went with maintenance and culture.


Fishmonger - +20% :food:, 3 :gold: Maintenance Cost, requires Fish.

Original plan was to increase the food output of nearby farms; However, this is not possible. Can be done for features and resources, but not improvements. :wallbash:








Anything else that I forgot to list. :lol:

Issues


The new resource buildings have full pedias, but I did not have time to create icons for them. As a result, they all share the Granary icon.
At certain resolutions, the Strategic Resource display in the top panel will overlap the game turn; Not much I can do to fix this, aside from simply remove the strategic display. The functionality exists in a better way via the info pane now; Opinions on cutting the top bar display? I'd prefer not to, but with the overlap... May have to.

Compatibility


Economy mod is NOT compatible with the majority of UI mods.
Due to the way Lua mods function, they are not innately compatible with each other. However, there is a workaround; It simply requires that you have a 'Compatibility Mod' which includes the necessary line of xml for each lua mod. Economy Mod functions as that compatibility mod. ;) This does mean that I have to manually allow each and every lua mod it is compatible with; If I miss any, let me know and I will add it for the next patch.

Currently compatible with: ActiveCityDefense, TechDiffusion, TreeGrowth, Emigration
Important Note: To ensure compatibility, you must activate Economy Mod after all other mods!


If you have any specific compatibility questions, feel free to post them here and I will check the mod out as soon as I am able.

Recommended Mods


KillMePlease's Emigration mod
Opera's City States of the World mod
Opera's Venice: The Most Serene Republic mod
Afforess's Active City Defense
Afforess's Tech Diffusion
Bhruic's TreeGrowth

Credits


DireAussie's Improved Build Queue Mod
ArgentumStudio's Resource Info Panel
Csebal's Extended Plot Mouseover
BlakeTheGreat's Great People Info Mod
Thalassicus's Unofficial Patch
Xienwolf's FlagPromotions mod
Kael's Modlist and No Unitflag option
Black_Imperator, for helping with the Resource Building effects
Robk's Info Addict


Available now, via the in-game browser and here. ;)

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 01:38 AM
For any other modders out there: You may find this mod useful as an example of how to use SQL files to make modifications.

The first three items on my list would take ages to do in Civ4, or in Civ5 using xml. List every building, every unit, every tech, and modify costs? No thanks. :p

Fortunately, you no longer have to, thanks to the wonders of SQL. ;)

Here is the code I used to modify tech costs:
UPDATE Technologies SET 'Cost' = cost*1.5 WHERE Cost > 0;

That single line did it all. Set it to load to the database (same way you already use XML files!), and it will take care of it all. You can even get more complex and have it affect specific groups of techs, which you define; Whatever you want, basically. It is incredibly simple compared to the old method.

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 01:42 AM
Credits:


Magus424 - LuxuryResourceDisplay
DireAussie - BuildQueueMod
#Erebus Regulars - Giving me feedback :goodjob:
Kael - Without his mods, I would still be figuring things out. Hell, without FfH I would not be modding at all. :p
Firaxis - For creating a game, and then allowing us to butcher it. :lol:

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 01:42 AM
Claimed

Grey Fox
Sep 29, 2010, 01:52 AM
I've been meaning to do something similar to this, I will use this as base for my personal mod maybe help you tweak this if you agree to my changes. ;)

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 01:53 AM
I've been meaning to do something similar to this, I will use this as base for my personal mod maybe help you tweak this if you agree to my changes. ;)

Of course. ;)

I have quite a few changes planned.

attackfighter
Sep 29, 2010, 02:30 AM
I like the higher tech cost, I find the it increases too quickly in vanilla. I hate how the tech level never matches the date, and it's always a problem in every single civ game (srsly they need to start balancing it based on competant players, you could probably tech to the medieval age before 20AD off of a single city).

Thoughts:
changes might screw up the AI, ie the AI might make a ton of warriors at the start, due to the lowered cost, and end up dying from maintenance

unhappiness might be an issue since it takes longer to tech to happiness buildings, and the increased resource yields would mean a higher growth rate

this might be a huge buff to tech agreements

James009
Sep 29, 2010, 03:00 AM
Sweet! Thank you for releasing this. :)

Regarding the AI, I think they are smart enough to know when to stop building things and balance their budget. Remember FFH mod for Civ IV? Despite all the crazy changes they did the AI still did quite well with all of it.

JEELEN
Sep 29, 2010, 03:05 AM
:goodjob: Valkrionn!

Necro-
Sep 29, 2010, 05:06 AM
id like to see citizens give u gold, as a form of tax, making large cities more useful

Hybrisma
Sep 29, 2010, 07:50 AM
Will this work while playing on a custom map?

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 08:07 AM
Glad to see it's been received well.. Over 200 downloads in just a few hours. :goodjob:

I'm in class from 9am to 8:20pm today (all my courses are on the same day... Sucks, but only have class mondays and wednesdays) so there likely will not be a new version out today. Not unless I get bored in Java. :mischief:

I like the higher tech cost, I find the it increases too quickly in vanilla. I hate how the tech level never matches the date, and it's always a problem in every single civ game (srsly they need to start balancing it based on competant players, you could probably tech to the medieval age before 20AD off of a single city).

Thoughts:
changes might screw up the AI, ie the AI might make a ton of warriors at the start, due to the lowered cost, and end up dying from maintenance

unhappiness might be an issue since it takes longer to tech to happiness buildings, and the increased resource yields would mean a higher growth rate

this might be a huge buff to tech agreements

I agree, teching was way too fast. That was one of the first changes I made... But at first it was by hacking the gamespeed settings, not by using sql to change costs. :lol: MUCH easier this way.

I doubt it will hurt the AI much, and will likely be adding a few new processes; A weak one available at start as a hammer sink (if you don't want more maintenance, a 10% conversion to gold could actually be worth it), and a stronger one later in the game. Maybe attached to a policy.

Happiness may well become a factor; If so, I'll look into solutions. Just keep in mind that I typically prefer creative solutions, over just increasing what's already there; That's why the resource tweaks will be changed. :lol:

Sweet! Thank you for releasing this. :)

Regarding the AI, I think they are smart enough to know when to stop building things and balance their budget. Remember FFH mod for Civ IV? Despite all the crazy changes they did the AI still did quite well with all of it.

Pretty much. I didn't notice them do anything horrible in the game I played to test.

And honestly, I mainly released it so I could have something concrete to show when I make suggestions for how things should work. Rather than simply stating my opinion, now I can also point to a working version, which they can play and then decide if they like the change. :lol:

:goodjob: Valkrionn!

:goodjob:

id like to see citizens give u gold, as a form of tax, making large cities more useful

I have an idea for large cities, will have to see if it's possible yet.

Will this work while playing on a custom map?

I see no reason why it shouldn't. I don't remove anything, I only tweak stats and add new things.

Cormac1974
Sep 29, 2010, 08:30 AM
Hi,

How can I install it?
I copied to MODS dir, but the game can't see it.

Somebody can help me?

Thanks

orko_oskar
Sep 29, 2010, 08:41 AM
My main gripe is with the Great Scientists.
In my latest game I had one city (as india on dif 5) and thanks to Gscientists giving me a tech each I had coal revealed before I even had bronzeworking...
Is there a possible way to make them instead of a free tech giving you a certain amount of beakers, preferably dependant on age?

BTW, your changes looks good so far, will try them out.

Falk
Sep 29, 2010, 09:14 AM
Great job! The 20% production decrease is what I had in mind, too. Should work well! I must say that I also like all the other changes you've made even though I haven't playtested the mod yet.

The only thing I'm skeptical about is the tech cost increase - this might not work with smaller empires. Your mod allows for more and faster expansion which is great, but be careful not to make 3-5 city empires unplayable.

As for possible Happiness problems - my idea was to add more luxury ressources to the game (more different ones and more on the map) and slightly decrease the happiness bonus they give. Makes expanding your empire a more sensible option.

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 09:37 AM
Hi,

How can I install it?
I copied to MODS dir, but the game can't see it.

Somebody can help me?

Thanks

To install the file directly, it should go in My Games/Civilization5/MODS.

Assuming you have it there, what do you see when you go into the game? Is there an 'Install Mods' button in the bottom right of the modbrowser when you open it to the 'Installed Mods' page? If so, click it.

Failing that, you can extract the civ5mod file using 7zip.

My main gripe is with the Great Scientists.
In my latest game I had one city (as india on dif 5) and thanks to Gscientists giving me a tech each I had coal revealed before I even had bronzeworking...
Is there a possible way to make them instead of a free tech giving you a certain amount of beakers, preferably dependant on age?

BTW, your changes looks good so far, will try them out.

Possible, but not sure if I would do that. I have plans for GP tile improvements, though, assuming I can't convince the devs to use my idea for them. :lol:

Like I said, that's my main reason for making this mod; I'm one of the testers, so I wanted something concrete to show when I make suggestions.

Great job! The 20% production decrease is what I had in mind, too. Should work well! I must say that I also like all the other changes you've made even though I haven't playtested the mod yet.

The only thing I'm skeptical about is the tech cost increase - this might not work with smaller empires. Your mod allows for more and faster expansion which is great, but be careful not to make 3-5 city empires unplayable.

As for possible Happiness problems - my idea was to add more luxury ressources to the game (more different ones and more on the map) and slightly decrease the happiness bonus they give. Makes expanding your empire a more sensible option.

Well, IMO you can't simply reduce costs. Yes, production was too slow... But teching was also too fast, and you could skip ever building some units. By increasing the tech cost, that changes. If I have to tweak other things to make it work well, I have no problem doing so.

And I don't intend to add more resources unless I can get art, really. I WILL make bonus resources work differently, but that doesn't help happiness. :lol: We'll see.

Ekmek
Sep 29, 2010, 09:40 AM
I like it V,

Have you looked at reducing the cost of the stock exchange?

I think I'll use your as a base for some changes I want to make -

-like the watermill adding production to river tiles instead of food. I also want to move an
-engineer slot earlier in the game (not sure where yet)
- modifying the Great People TIs.
- I'd make the Workshop button for you bt I'm not a fan of the improvement :lol:

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 09:59 AM
I like it V,

Have you looked at reducing the cost of the stock exchange?

I think I'll use your as a base for some changes I want to make -

-like the watermill adding production to river tiles instead of food. I also want to move an
-engineer slot earlier in the game (not sure where yet)
- modifying the Great People TIs.
- I'd make the Workshop button for you bt I'm not a fan of the improvement :lol:

I haven't looked at reducing the cost of any specific building; I just modified ALL costs first, will tweak individual costs if the feedback says it's needed.

And feel free to use my changes. :goodjob:


Hmm... Interesting concept.
Yeah, it's needed. Don't have any early on.
You already know what I intend to try with them, seeing as I've suggested it on the forums. I'm guessing you're going to go the direct route instead?
Should do it anyway! :p


Honestly, I haven't quite decided if I'll keep the workshop improvement or not. I've discussed why I didn't go a purely specialist-focused route for flatland cities (In short: 3 :hammers: on an engineer is equal to a mined hill, meaning those cities which already HAVE production only gain from the change, as they can switch over and then earn GE points. An improvement requiring flatlands is something they won't use (need the farms). If I could have a building provide X hammers, and reduce that X for each hill in the radius, I would.), but I find the workshop uninteresting. I've always been a sucker for 'interesting' features. :lol:

If I had DLL access, there would BE interesting features. :p

Abremms
Sep 29, 2010, 10:04 AM
I like it, the pace of the game feels a lot better now. games are longer, and you get to spend more time actually using the units you build before upgrading them. and with the reduced production, it makes reinforcing a battered army before they break an actual possibility now. The AI puts up a bit more of a fight after the initial battle.

Necro-
Sep 29, 2010, 10:10 AM
Bonus (non-luxury, non-strategic) Resource yields buffed; Must build the improvement to gain this extra yield

i assume that means things like deers/etc.? in which case are you planning on buffing strategic/luxury resources like ice's mod?

Abremms
Sep 29, 2010, 10:50 AM
also, i just noticed that since you used SDK, this mod plays very nice with XML mods like my courthouse tweak, although i did have to adjust it to be more balanced with the additional 20% reduction. still, that is a very nice aspect of the modular modding system. :D

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:03 AM
I like it, the pace of the game feels a lot better now. games are longer, and you get to spend more time actually using the units you build before upgrading them. and with the reduced production, it makes reinforcing a battered army before they break an actual possibility now. The AI puts up a bit more of a fight after the initial battle.

That was exactly what I was going for. :goodjob:

Bonus (non-luxury, non-strategic) Resource yields buffed; Must build the improvement to gain this extra yield

i assume that means things like deers/etc.? in which case are you planning on buffing strategic/luxury resources like ice's mod?

Yes, just tile improvement resources. Cows, Sheep, Wheat, Fish, Bananas, Deer. Exact yields are as follows:


Resource - Improvement - Boost - Actual Yield
Cow - Pasture - +1 :food: - 1:food:, 1:hammers:
Sheep - Pasture - +1 :commerce: - 1:food:, 1:commerce:
Wheat - Farm - +2 :food: - 2:food: (Had no bonus by default! :crazyeye:)
Fish - Fishing Boats - +1 :commerce: - 3:commerce: (Water tiles suck)
Banana - Plantation - +1 :food: - 3:food: (So do jungles)
Deer - Camp - +1 :commerce: - 1:food:, 1:commerce:

I currently have no plans to buff other resources; They have valid uses, they do not need to make the tile as strong. With these 6, their only current affect is their yield, so they needed a boost.

also, i just noticed that since you used SDK, this mod plays very nice with XML mods like my courthouse tweak, although i did have to adjust it to be more balanced with the additional 20% reduction. still, that is a very nice aspect of the modular modding system. :D

Yep, will automatically adjust the costs of other mods, assuming they are activated first. :goodjob:

Cormac1974
Sep 29, 2010, 12:14 PM
To install the file directly, it should go in My Games/Civilization5/MODS.

Assuming you have it there, what do you see when you go into the game? Is there an 'Install Mods' button in the bottom right of the modbrowser when you open it to the 'Installed Mods' page? If so, click it.

Failing that, you can extract the civ5mod file using 7zip.
see.


Thanks a lot, it's work! Great! :crazyeye:

Quetz
Sep 29, 2010, 01:23 PM
excellent ideas. My main problem now is with the Great Scientist slingshotting to Civil Service (which, admittedly, I do almost every game since I usually play Persia and want the longer golden age wonder ^ ^)

Feyd Rautha
Sep 29, 2010, 01:42 PM
This pretty much matches what I was thinking of for a mod dealing with the economy. Is there any plan to add some military upkeep reductions so a player can field an army large enough to defend their empire without bankrupting themselves?

Also, with +50% build time is there any plan (as previous posters have mentioned) to alter the great scientist ability? I had a thought to make them worth 100 science x2 per age increment (x2 Classical, x4 Medieval, x6 Renaissance, etc.). Also, have the game turns been tweaked to allow for the increased tech time and science victories?

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 01:50 PM
excellent ideas. My main problem now is with the Great Scientist slingshotting to Civil Service (which, admittedly, I do almost every game since I usually play Persia and want the longer golden age wonder ^ ^)

I may have to modify that ability, we'll see. For now I'm going to focus on their tile improvements, though. ;)

This pretty much matches what I was thinking of for a mod dealing with the economy. Is there any plan to add some military upkeep reductions so a player can field an army large enough to defend their empire without bankrupting themselves?

Also, with +50% build time is there any plan (as previous posters have mentioned) to alter the great scientist ability? I had a thought to make them worth 100 science x2 per age increment (x2 Classical, x4 Medieval, x6 Renaissance, etc.). Also, have the game turns been tweaked to allow for the increased tech time and science victories?

Possible. I know I will be reducing maintenance of the defensive buildings, at the very least.

Game turns have not been tweaked, but they were off enough that I'm not sure they have to be.

Feyd Rautha
Sep 29, 2010, 02:04 PM
One thing I always thought to consider was setting a duration for upkeep on various things (defensive structures included) since most buildings eventually start to become tourist attractions and make money. Just look at old castles in Europe. Many aren't used as castles anymore (although they could serve in a pinch), but they are definite tourist traps. Other buildings pay for themselves in other ways. Watermills were businesses most of the time as are factories. A granary once it reached capacity was a profitable thing even since it allowed for excess grain to be sold as well.

There are a lot of options. Looking forward to the future of this mod though!

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 02:06 PM
One thing I always thought to consider was setting a duration for upkeep on various things (defensive structures included) since most buildings eventually start to become tourist attractions and make money. Just look at old castles in Europe. Many aren't used as castles anymore (although they could serve in a pinch), but they are definite tourist traps. Other buildings pay for themselves in other ways. Watermills were businesses most of the time as are factories. A granary once it reached capacity was a profitable thing even since it allowed for excess grain to be sold as well.

There are a lot of options. Looking forward to the future of this mod though!

Not a bad idea, but likely out of reach of what I can do without DLL access.

Right now I'm working on my Bonus Resource changes. :goodjob:

Horem
Sep 29, 2010, 02:10 PM
Hello Valkrionn

Very nice adjustments, something the game needed in my opinion (althou it doesnt prevent the determined player to adv to Medieval before 1000BC).

Have a small issue with it, the Build Ques seem to be locked in that state, cant change to just, point and click single build.(Uncheck the Show Build Que and nothing happens)
Read the comments here and nobody else seems to have mentioned this issue, maybe I installed it incorrectly? I installed it manualy not with the ingame UI (since its a bit buggy).

..\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Economy Mod

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit is my OS if that helps.

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 02:32 PM
Hello Valkrionn

Very nice adjustments, something the game needed in my opinion (althou it doesnt prevent the determined player to adv to Medieval before 1000BC).

Have a small issue with it, the Build Ques seem to be locked in that state, cant change to just, point and click single build.(Uncheck the Show Build Que and nothing happens)
Read the comments here and nobody else seems to have mentioned this issue, maybe I installed it incorrectly? I installed it manualy not with the ingame UI (since its a bit buggy).

..\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Economy Mod

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit is my OS if that helps.


That's actually intended; It's a hack, and without making it more complex I can't allow that to be disabled. I am planning to go in and allow you to toggle production, but as yet have not had time to do more than just include it... And IMO, the functionality was worth the tradeoff.

Horem
Sep 29, 2010, 02:38 PM
Oh. Thats a gad dam dirty shame. :(

darkedone02
Sep 29, 2010, 03:59 PM
I don't like this building queue, and wish to turn it off. I don't like it because if I purchase a unit, the production change as well.

I don't like building units and end up deleting them until I get currency or research conversion production. Can you add in an idle conversion production?

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 04:02 PM
I don't like this building queue, and wish to turn it off. I don't like it because if I purchase a unit, the production change as well.

I don't like building units and end up deleting them until I get currency or research conversion production. Can you add in an idle conversion production?

I'm going to be modifying the way the queue works; Either you will be able to turn it on and off (preferable), or a click will simply choose production and exit. Shift-click will append to the end of the queue. Ctrl-click will append to the front. Alt-click will wipe the queue and then place the item.

I'm planning to add idle conversions, yes. I've stated so already. ;)


Right now, I'm working on the bonus resource plans I have.

darkedone02
Sep 29, 2010, 04:28 PM
I'm going to be modifying the way the queue works; Either you will be able to turn it on and off (preferable), or a click will simply choose production and exit. Shift-click will append to the end of the queue. Ctrl-click will append to the front. Alt-click will wipe the queue and then place the item.

I'm planning to add idle conversions, yes. I've stated so already. ;)


Right now, I'm working on the bonus resource plans I have.

alrighty, i do need that Idle Conversion, i hate building useless units and overpopulating my lands with workers with this building queue.

I also wish there was a small mod that if you hold alt or ctrl, and press one of those purchase lands, you purchase all of the available land instead of just one. You can only do this if you have the money to afford it and also a warning message and money cost. This help speed up buying land as a whole instead of indiviually.

edit: I'm trying to find the other conversion's so I can see if I can get ahead and made an idle conversion myself and release it as a mod component so others can download it and spend less time doing it themselves. It's not in the building's which i've been looking at, so where is the conversion data?

magus424
Sep 29, 2010, 10:34 PM
Please remove my mod from yours, I did not give you permission to distribute it - I will be posting it to the mod hub myself as soon as I fix a few minor issues :)

I would've PMed, but I can't find the option anywhere - maybe I'm too new to be allowed that? :)

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:02 PM
Please remove my mod from yours, I did not give you permission to distribute it - I will be posting it to the mod hub myself as soon as I fix a few minor issues :)

I would've PMed, but I can't find the option anywhere - maybe I'm too new to be allowed that? :)

Alright, will do; I had asked in your thread a few days ago, got no response, went ahead and included it as a result.

In any case, something I've added pretty well demands that I write my own version anyway. :lol:

And yeah, need (IIRC) 10 posts and 10 days as a member to PM.

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:03 PM
alrighty, i do need that Idle Conversion, i hate building useless units and overpopulating my lands with workers with this building queue.

I also wish there was a small mod that if you hold alt or ctrl, and press one of those purchase lands, you purchase all of the available land instead of just one. You can only do this if you have the money to afford it and also a warning message and money cost. This help speed up buying land as a whole instead of indiviually.

edit: I'm trying to find the other conversion's so I can see if I can get ahead and made an idle conversion myself and release it as a mod component so others can download it and spend less time doing it themselves. It's not in the building's which i've been looking at, so where is the conversion data?

Sorry, didn't notice your edit. They aren't called conversions, but Processes; And they are located in Assets\Gameplay\XML\GameInfo\Civ5Processes.xml.

Afforess
Sep 29, 2010, 11:11 PM
Please remove my mod from yours, I did not give you permission to distribute it - I will be posting it to the mod hub myself as soon as I fix a few minor issues :)

I would've PMed, but I can't find the option anywhere - maybe I'm too new to be allowed that? :)

Oh God, are we taking this route now? I know people want credit for their mods and such, but I've played games where modders decided to lock down their mods. It's a total pain in the arse for users, and since I don't see a copyright on your mod, Magus424, Valkrionn did nothing wrong. In fact, he isn't even obligated to credit you.

Allowing mod sharing is part of what made Civ4 mods so great. Locking them down is only going to hurt the end user... unless that's secretly what you want all along. ;)

PS, nice job Valkrionn. Just started a game with v.1. Lots better than vanilla!

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:15 PM
Oh God, are we taking this route now? I know people want credit for their mods and such, but I've played games where modders decided to lock down their mods. It's a total pain in the arse for users, and since I don't see a copyright on your mod, Magus424, Valkrionn did nothing wrong. In fact, he isn't even obligated to credit you.

Allowing mod sharing is part of what made Civ4 mods so great. Locking them down is only going to hurt the end user... unless that's secretly what you want all along. ;)

PS, nice job Valkrionn. Just started a game with v.1. Lots better than vanilla!

Honestly, I thought pretty much exactly that ("Is this Oblivion now?" :lol:), but I don't really mind. I've been aggravated with people doing things like that before.

Of course, there is a significant difference between what I did (Asking permission, waiting a few days without response before acting, giving ample credit) and what others have done (No permission asked, no credit given, act as if it was your idea), but hey. :p

As I said, it's not really important. I was already planning on making a screen for it, as I need to display some other information (concerning bonus resources).

And glad to hear you like it! As I said, it's mostly something for me to point to when suggesting certain modifications to the devs, though. :p You should take a look at the SQL stuff... I was quite pleased to get that working so easily. :lol:

Afforess
Sep 29, 2010, 11:28 PM
Honestly, I thought pretty much exactly that ("Is this Oblivion now?" :lol:), but I don't really mind. I've been aggravated with people doing things like that before.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one completely put off by his behavior. I want to put a stop to this abhorrent mentality before other people start getting the same idea. Mods are for sharing. If you don't want me ripping you off, don't upload it to the internet.


Of course, there is a significant difference between what I did (Asking permission, waiting a few days without response before acting, giving ample credit) and what others have done (No permission asked, no credit given, act as if it was your idea), but hey. :p

It's irrelevant. He has no copyright notice, so his mod is public domain. Public domain works can be used by anyone, for anything, without credit. (Heck, you could have used his mod and sold it for $, and it would still be legal!) ;)


As I said, it's not really important. I was already planning on making a screen for it, as I need to display some other information (concerning bonus resources).

I'd love to help you out if you need it, even if it be simply alpha testing changes. ;) Without the Source Code, I'm kinda like a boat out of water, not exactly sure what to do. It's such a huge change from being able to mod whatever I wanted with Civ4... so I haven't done anything with Civ5 yet.


And glad to hear you like it! As I said, it's mostly something for me to point to when suggesting certain modifications to the devs, though. :p You should take a look at the SQL stuff... I was quite pleased to get that working so easily. :lol:

I looked at it. It's awesome that the XML data can be manipulated so easily. I hated having to modify 100 entries back for Civ4.

This might be out of the realm of your mod, but City Defenses really need to be addressed. If the actual values can't be made to deal more damage, then the initial city defenses needs to be much higher, and the defensive buildings need to be much more powerful.

Feyd Rautha
Sep 29, 2010, 11:35 PM
I tried to pick this up in the in-game browser, but I wound up with a blank screen after the "loading ring". Steam and Civ have all the permissions I can give them, but the mod browser just doesn't work... Anyone else encountered this?

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:36 PM
I'm glad I wasn't the only one completely put off by his behavior. I want to put a stop to this abhorrent mentality before other people start getting the same idea. Mods are for sharing. If you don't want me ripping you off, don't upload it to the internet.

Eh... Honestly, I see both sides of this argument, and that's why I always try to give credit where it's due. I'd usually rather just write my own code, honestly, so that I both fully understand it and will be able to fix any bugs. :lol:

I generally don't care when others take my work (and I made each change it's own file for just that reason; It's easy to steal), so long as I'm given credit. :lol:


It's irrelevant. He has no copyright notice, so his mod is public domain. Public domain works can be used by anyone, for anything, without credit. (Heck, you could have used his mod and sold it for $, and it would still be legal!) ;)

Legal, but not moral. Credit should be given where it is due. I'm fairly inflexible on that. :p


I'd love to help you out if you need it, even if it be simply alpha testing changes. ;) Without the Source Code, I'm kinda like a boat out of water, not exactly sure what to do. It's such a huge change from being able to mod whatever I wanted with Civ4... so I haven't done anything with Civ5 yet.

Sure, I'll let you know. Right now I'm playing with bonus resources (I've made them operate like strategic resources, and they'll have some new buildings which require them; Have to display that. Right now I have a clone of Magus's luxury display working fine for them, but I'm in the process of combining the two and making it an actual screen, not a simple display; Better, in the long run), but I have a rather large feature planned for the future, involving bringing back a certain mechanic from Civ4, in an entirely new way. :p


I looked at it. It's awesome that the XML data can be manipulated so easily. I hated having to modify 100 entries back for Civ4.

This might be out of the realm of your mod, but City Defenses really need to be addressed. If the actual values can't be made to deal more damage, then the initial city defenses needs to be much higher, and the defensive buildings need to be much more powerful.

Yeah. I almost listed every building and unit and then modified the costs. And that would have sucked. Doing it this way makes it work with other mods, as well. :D

I'm planning to reduce the maintenance of city defense buildings, so any changes I make to actual city stats will have to be after that modification. Don't want to go too far.

Afforess
Sep 29, 2010, 11:40 PM
Eh... Honestly, I see both sides of this argument, and that's why I always try to give credit where it's due. I'd usually rather just write my own code, honestly, so that I both fully understand it and will be able to fix any bugs. :lol:

I generally don't care when others take my work (and I made each change it's own file for just that reason; It's easy to steal), so long as I'm given credit. :lol:

I wasn't advising you not to give credit, just to be aware that Magus246 had no means of recourse should you ignore him. ;)



Sure, I'll let you know. Right now I'm playing with bonus resources (I've made them operate like strategic resources, and they'll have some new buildings which require them; Have to display that. Right now I have a clone of Magus's luxury display working fine for them, but I'm in the process of combining the two and making it an actual screen, not a simple display; Better, in the long run), but I have a rather large feature planned for the future, involving bringing back a certain mechanic from Civ4, in an entirely new way. :p

Operating like Strategic Resources? Okay - but that makes happiness even harder to satisfy, right?



Yeah. I almost listed every building and unit and then modified the costs. And that would have sucked. Doing it this way makes it work with other mods, as well. :D

I'm planning to reduce the maintenance of city defense buildings, so any changes I make to actual city stats will have to be after that modification. Don't want to go too far.

I understand why they cost maintenance for gameplay reasons, but in reality, the walls are just a pile of rocks, so it doesn't cost anything to keep around...

I guess I'd be a lot happier if cities could actually deal a non-trivial amount of damage. Sieges would be a lot more interesting then.

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:46 PM
@Feyd Rautha - Do you have steam installed to a non-default path, or have non-standard characters in that path? If either are true, you'll have to install manually until that is fixed.

I wasn't advising you not to give credit, just to be aware that Magus246 had no means of recourse should you ignore him. ;)

Operating like Strategic Resources? Okay - but that makes happiness even harder to satisfy, right?

I understand why they cost maintenance for gameplay reasons, but in reality, the walls are just a pile of rocks, so it doesn't cost anything to keep around...

I guess I'd be a lot happier if cities could actually deal a non-trivial amount of damage. Sieges would be a lot more interesting then.

Ah, you misinterpret me on the bonuses. Bonus resources, not Strategic or Luxury. Meaning Wheat, Cows, Sheep, Deer, Fish, and Banana specifically. Currently they do nothing other than affect the tile they're on, so they are A)Boring, and B)Not worth fighting over, unlike other resources.

Yeah... I'm still not sure how I feel about building maintenance in general. :lol: The defensive buildings will all go down a point, though. As it stands they aren't worth building.

And I'll see about the cities. My issue there is what happens when you have a city with an archer or catapult in it... Focus fire could take out a unit a turn. Had the AI pull that on me today, actually, WITHOUT buffing it. :lol:

Feyd Rautha
Sep 29, 2010, 11:49 PM
Could someone please list the default path? Danke.

Afforess
Sep 29, 2010, 11:49 PM
Ah, you misinterpret me on the bonuses. Bonus resources, not Strategic or Luxury. Meaning Wheat, Cows, Sheep, Deer, Fish, and Banana specifically. Currently they do nothing other than affect the tile they're on, so they are A)Boring, and B)Not worth fighting over, unlike other resources.

Ohhhh...

I see. Yes, ATM, I don't even consider Fish, or Wheat, or any of those in settling cities. I did feel that they were too weak.

And I'll see about the cities. My issue there is what happens when you have a city with an archer or catapult in it... Focus fire could take out a unit a turn. Had the AI pull that on me today, actually, WITHOUT buffing it. :lol:

I had a siege where I lost a unit a turn, but that's because the city had an archer, and another archer in the field, all firing on the same unit... Usually, the city alone only deals like 2 hp (at most)

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:51 PM
Default path for steam is: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam

Default path for civ5 is: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v

Valkrionn
Sep 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
Ohhhh...

I see. Yes, ATM, I don't even consider Fish, or Wheat, or any of those in settling cities. I did feel that they were too weak.

Very weak. I already buffed them yield-wise, but that bores me. So I'm trying something more interesting. :lol:

Would prefer if I could have them only ever link to the controlling (working) city, and then have buildings which grant +X or +Y% yield per instance of the resource, but that's not possible. Has to be empire-wide, until we get DLL access. Which means a modifier per resource is FAR too strong, so instead I'll have something else done.

Likely a decent effect, coupled with a boost to the resource. Example:


Granary2 (no name for a quick idea :p)

Granary must exist in city.
Requires 1 Wheat
Stores X% (20?) food on population growth

Very early access to that capability is a good thing.

Grants +1 commerce to nearby Wheat resources




I had a siege where I lost a unit a turn, but that's because the city had an archer, and another archer in the field, all firing on the same unit... Usually, the city alone only deals like 2 hp (at most)

That was precisely what was going on. The problem is just that it's easy to do that. Buffing the city makes it even easier, and harder to conquer.

Feyd Rautha
Sep 30, 2010, 12:14 AM
Default path for steam is: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam

Default path for civ5 is: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v

Those are my paths. It's not an install problem, it's a "browser" problem. I click the "Online" tab and it loads mods, but after a few seconds I get the "loading ring" and then the left index and center frame go blank.

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 12:24 AM
Ah. Hmm. IIRC, Opera had a problem where she couldn't view online mods correctly; I'll see if she had figured anything out and get back to you.

sresk
Sep 30, 2010, 12:30 AM
Hey guys I'm new to modding but been trolling for quite a while. Victoria2 and paradox games in general finally got me over the hump and starting to mod game files. Anywho been reading the forums and like the direction your taking with this mod. I think alot of the other resource re balance projects take things a little too far. So I was wondering if I can offer any sort of assistance and wanted to ask...How massive are you planning on making this thing?

On the city defense thing. I agree that as it stands cities are not quite strong enough. So for my own games I upped the range to 3 and increased the healing per turn to 2. I really think both of those things should have been done through tech some where deeper in the tree but I haven't quite gotten around to attaching bonuses to tech. I'm hoping the new mod tools (which I'm installing right now) make that alot easier.

On some of the less useful resources have you though of adding in an empire wide health pool similar to happiness? When its high decrease the cost to city growth, or give every city a granary like effect and carry over some portion of the food to the next growth level. When its low decrease growth or happiness (which in turn could decrease food production)

Thrax73
Sep 30, 2010, 12:37 AM
Fantastic mod!

I was wondering something? I notice all too often Civs can easy steamroll other Civs and it seems to me that city defense is not quite up to snuff. Now i have no idea how it works but I was thinking that it would not seem unreasonable for city defense structures to add damage to the city bombardment attack. Is this possible?

I ask because although it looks really cool, it typically takes an ancient level bombardment a few turns just to sink a barbarian galley. If defense structures like walls gave teeth to this weapon it might reduce the early game gobbling that leads to a snowball effect and very few surviving late game Civs.

Thanks again for the mod, really great addiction to the gameplay.

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 12:39 AM
So from what I've seen in the arguements between credit and mod sharing, I think that means that competition is not allowed in this part of the forums, it;s sharing and improving each other like some non-criminal freelancing.

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 12:42 AM
Hey guys I'm new to modding but been trolling for quite a while. Victoria2 and paradox games in general finally got me over the hump and starting to mod game files. Anywho been reading the forums and like the direction your taking with this mod. I think alot of the other resource re balance projects take things a little too far. So I was wondering if I can offer any sort of assistance and wanted to ask...How massive are you planning on making this thing?

On the city defense thing. I agree that as it stands cities are not quite strong enough. So for my own games I upped the range to 3 and increased the healing per turn to 2. I really think both of those things should have been done through tech some where deeper in the tree but I haven't quite gotten around to attaching bonuses to tech. I'm hoping the new mod tools (which I'm installing right now) make that alot easier.

On some of the less useful resources have you though of adding in an empire wide health pool similar to happiness? When its high decrease the cost to city growth, or give every city a granary like effect and carry over some portion of the food to the next growth level. When its low decrease growth or happiness (which in turn could decrease food production)

New modders are always welcome. :goodjob:

I have no plans to make this a large mod, honestly. As I've said, it's just something concrete I can point to when I make balance suggestions. I already run an extensive Civ4 mod, have one largescale modcomp planned for civ5, have a scenario planned, and have an eventual total conversion planned with the RifE team. :lol:

Oh, plus school. :crazyeye:


Your city changes are interesting. I'll have to play around with things later on, but I may end up doing something similar.

On health: Yes, but we can't yet. To do that well requires DLL work. I'd also probably keep it on a per-city level, just to differentiate it from happiness.

Fantastic mod!

I was wondering something? I notice all too often Civs can easy steamroll other Civs and it seems to me that city defense is not quite up to snuff. Now i have no idea how it works but I was thinking that it would not seem unreasonable for city defense structures to add damage to the city bombardment attack. Is this possible?

I ask because although it looks really cool, it typically takes an ancient level bombardment a few turns just to sink a barbarian galley. If defense structures like walls gave teeth to this weapon it might reduce the early game gobbling that leads to a snowball effect and very few surviving late game Civs.

Thanks again for the mod, really great addiction to the gameplay.

That should be possible, and is another thing I may do. :goodjob:

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 12:45 AM
So from what I've seen in the arguements between credit and mod sharing, I think that means that competition is not allowed in this part of the forums, it;s sharing and improving each other like some non-criminal freelancing.

What? Competition is always allowed.

All he was really saying is that mods are public domain. If you release it, others can do whatever they want to it.

The Civilization modding community is as excellent as it is because (generally speaking) people give credit when they borrow things; This would be the first time I've been asked to remove something, actually. And I have never asked that of others (though I HAVE asked to be listed in the credits!). The community here is pretty easy-going, in general.

Necro-
Sep 30, 2010, 01:28 AM
id really like to see defensive buildings maintentence cut completely, as someone said a wall doesnt have upkeep, and it'll make them useful! currently i don't think anyone builds them due to upkeep - maybe have the higher tech ones have some tech keep like castle - as castles have guards and the like!

also i'd like to see genreally useless buildings (granary? etc.) somehow made more useful, maybe something like them getting better the bigger your city or the like?

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 01:33 AM
What? Competition is always allowed.

All he was really saying is that mods are public domain. If you release it, others can do whatever they want to it.

The Civilization modding community is as excellent as it is because (generally speaking) people give credit when they borrow things; This would be the first time I've been asked to remove something, actually. And I have never asked that of others (though I HAVE asked to be listed in the credits!). The community here is pretty easy-going, in general.

ah, then I must be blind and not see much competition here. As I never see any fanboy's saying "Fall from Heaven 2 is way better then that piece of **** called Rise of Mankind" or something like that (just an example, not directly flaming anybody). As all the mod's that I've seen and play, I only see each and every mod is different. From Total Realism trying to add in realistic stuff, from Rise of Mankind extending the vinalla Civ 4 to a bigger, better game filled with so much content to make it look very good. To Keal making his Fall from Heaven 2, I've never seen any competition towards Fall from Heaven 2.

So I never seen anything that make the forum go round visibly besides friendly people trying to rise their mod to the height before the expansion comes or when a new civ games come's. That is how I see it and still see it now.

Anyway's, i'm busy trying to see if I can make this idle process for ya, then submit it to the forum and anyone can borrow it to make what use of it on their own mod's. thanks for showing me the link, now I just try to see what I could do with this. Any help will be appreciated as this be my first time modding something for any Civ game (not general tweaks, actually adding something to the game).

grzybek
Sep 30, 2010, 01:43 AM
From my point of view the game is too slow at the beginning. I thought about adjusting costs of military units so the civilization would be able to build each of them in 5 turns tops.

For Ancient Era it would all have to be cut -80%. For other eras the cut would need to be smaller as the city production is increasing. For Modern Era cutting would not be needed at all.


What would be the result of that - more wars, small wars, especially in the beginning. Now the units are to expensive to risk a war with 1 unit, and to get a reasonable amount of them I would need to wait 1000-2000 years (because I cannot focus on building units all the time).

Second problem that it solves is that usually I get Archery and Bronze Working even before I thing about building second unit so a "little moster" called Warrior is usually a single freak in my army (unless I find a ruin and it's gets free upgrade to Spearmen :) )

Styg
Sep 30, 2010, 02:20 AM
From my point of view the game is too slow at the beginning. I thought about adjusting costs of military units so the civilization would be able to build each of them in 5 turns tops.

For Ancient Era it would all have to be cut -80%. For other eras the cut would need to be smaller as the city production is increasing. For Modern Era cutting would not be needed at all.


What would be the result of that - more wars, small wars, especially in the beginning. Now the units are to expensive to risk a war with 1 unit, and to get a reasonable amount of them I would need to wait 1000-2000 years (because I cannot focus on building units all the time).

Second problem that it solves is that usually I get Archery and Bronze Working even before I thing about building second unit so a "little moster" called Warrior is usually a single freak in my army (unless I find a ruin and it's gets free upgrade to Spearmen :) )

I am sorry but i have to disagree with that. I played a whole day on huge map, with max number of civs and states on marathon.

I love the changes done here and you can actually have small wars all over without any problems. And gold is very easy to get - just buy few units.
----------

Here are some observation from last night testing: (i am still in early game !)
(i may be wrong ofc game is still new :) )

huge map
max number of civs
marathon
race: egypt

- It's not possible to rush all wonders with Egypt like in vanilla simply because teching is taking too long
- Great Pyramid is losing a bit on value because it's either not worth rushing to it because you must carefully plan what to tech or you simply don't feel the need for it since game is long.
- Cities can grow very fast and you usually must know when to stop growing them so they can catch up with tech. (in my case well and granary were wasted build time)
- More time spent in certain age gives you more time to micro units, and wage a lot of wars without any fear they will be obsolete that fast
- By the time you finish your first or second tech u will find yourself explored almost whole map (huge)
- Rune that gives free tech is very imbalanced here
- Larger empires will have much more advantage than smaller ones in terms of culture and science in later game.
- regular resources feel more important than in vanilla

I hope this helps :D

Tomice
Sep 30, 2010, 02:20 AM
Your mod looks very promising so far, I just wanted to suggest that you maybe shouldn't mix all these features.

Balance changes are one thing, new tile improvements another, and UI changes a third thing. I'd like try the balance changes soon, but I'm not sure if I want an iconless new improvement (does the AI use it right?) or the build queue change.

Or is it easy to split your mod for the user?

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 02:43 AM
alright, how can I apply the processes right? this is what i've done
<GameData>
- <Table name="Processes">
<Column name="ID" type="integer" primarykey="true" autoincrement="true" />
<Column name="Type" type="text" notnull="true" unique="true" />
<Column name="Description" type="text" />
<Column name="Help" type="text" />
<Column name="Strategy" type="text" />
<Column name="TechPrereq" type="text" reference="Technologies(Type)" />
<Column name="PortraitIndex" type="integer" default="-1" />
<Column name="IconAtlas" type="text" default="NULL" reference="IconTextureAtlases(Atlas)" />
</Table>
- <Table name="Process_ProductionYields">
<Column name="ProcessType" type="text" reference="Processes(Type)" />
<Column name="YieldType" type="text" reference="Yields(Type)" />
<Column name="Yield" type="integer" notnull="true" />
</Table>
- <Processes>
- <Row>
<ID>0</ID>
<Type>PROCESS_IDLE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE_HELP</Help>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<TechPrereq>TECH_AGRICULTURE</TechPrereq>
<IconAtlas>CITIZEN_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
<PortraitIndex>9</PortraitIndex>
</Row>
- <Row>
<ProcessType>PROCESS_WEALTH</ProcessType>
<YieldType>YIELD_GOLD</YieldType>
<Yield>5</Yield>
</Row>
</GameData>

This is the only file I made, I try looking up the modder's guide and it really did not give me any infomation on how to properly apply special things such as processes and other infomation. So I am having a hard time. Do i also need to add this into the technology tree? I've already listed it to be with Agriculture, but it did not appear? So what am I doing wrong?

What I am triyng to do is add a process called Idle that you automatically get at the start of the game, I don't know if I had to put it on a technology, but if I have to, I already set it to Technology. Now i am thinking that I might need art, and all i need is that same art file that is used for the UI "wake" icon art to add for processing in the list. How do I Make it appear in the list?

Necro-
Sep 30, 2010, 06:17 AM
well, it's simple enough to mix and match as usually theyre in their seperate files, so for example if you dont want say gold process being 25% then u can just delete the file

bobbyboy29
Sep 30, 2010, 07:11 AM
This is fantastic Valkrionn! Great to see it. May I make a few suggestions for changes which you may like to add. These are things that I think will help balance the game out a bit more:
1: In keeping with the communitywide thirst for more production I think that lumber mills and mines should get +1 production at some point. Mines at machinery or engineering and lumbermills at steam power. (love the inclusion of the workshop btw!)

2: On a similar vein you could make it so culture is equally (or at least a bit more than currently) likely to expand onto hills as it is onto flatland so we can actually build mines!

3: Trading posts yield increases from 2 to 3 gold at printing press (hopefully this will balance out the increased maintenance you will be paying due to having more buiildings in every city)

Hope you like my ideas, looking forward to giving your mod a go!

Necro-
Sep 30, 2010, 07:31 AM
im kinda vexxed at the build que mod, since i hate pressing back every time

Tomice
Sep 30, 2010, 07:39 AM
well, it's simple enough to mix and match as usually theyre in their seperate files, so for example if you dont want say gold process being 25% then u can just delete the file

How do I open the *.civ5mod file in modbuddy?

Necro-
Sep 30, 2010, 07:48 AM
open them with like winrar

Tomice
Sep 30, 2010, 08:11 AM
Thx for the info, I now realized those are simply 7zip archives! Thx also @ Dale for his tutorial ;)

magus424
Sep 30, 2010, 11:56 AM
Alright, will do; I had asked in your thread a few days ago, got no response, went ahead and included it as a result.

Ah, I see that now, I must've scrolled past it :)

Thanks for understanding :)

riddleofsteel
Sep 30, 2010, 12:08 PM
Any way to have the build list automatically close again? Also, what other mods is this one incompatible with? I'm still using Iceciro's mods.

Stalker0
Sep 30, 2010, 12:09 PM
Don't know if it was mentioned, but there is a global value that you can adjust to affects the costs of all buildings...and of all units. Its simpler than having to adjust them all with a find/replace or a sql statement.

For future mods that might be of use to you.

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 12:27 PM
id really like to see defensive buildings maintentence cut completely, as someone said a wall doesnt have upkeep, and it'll make them useful! currently i don't think anyone builds them due to upkeep - maybe have the higher tech ones have some tech keep like castle - as castles have guards and the like!

also i'd like to see genreally useless buildings (granary? etc.) somehow made more useful, maybe something like them getting better the bigger your city or the like?

I won't cut it completely, but I will reduce them.

And some of those buildings will get better. Part of the resource tweaks I'm making. ;)

ah, then I must be blind and not see much competition here. As I never see any fanboy's saying "Fall from Heaven 2 is way better then that piece of **** called Rise of Mankind" or something like that (just an example, not directly flaming anybody). As all the mod's that I've seen and play, I only see each and every mod is different. From Total Realism trying to add in realistic stuff, from Rise of Mankind extending the vinalla Civ 4 to a bigger, better game filled with so much content to make it look very good. To Keal making his Fall from Heaven 2, I've never seen any competition towards Fall from Heaven 2.

So I never seen anything that make the forum go round visibly besides friendly people trying to rise their mod to the height before the expansion comes or when a new civ games come's. That is how I see it and still see it now.

Anyway's, i'm busy trying to see if I can make this idle process for ya, then submit it to the forum and anyone can borrow it to make what use of it on their own mod's. thanks for showing me the link, now I just try to see what I could do with this. Any help will be appreciated as this be my first time modding something for any Civ game (not general tweaks, actually adding something to the game).

Eh... Different kind of competition. By nature, all mods compete for players, and most mod authors want as many players as they can.

Just because you don't see people slamming other mods doesn't mean they aren't competing. It's just a friendly competition. :lol:

From my point of view the game is too slow at the beginning. I thought about adjusting costs of military units so the civilization would be able to build each of them in 5 turns tops.

For Ancient Era it would all have to be cut -80%. For other eras the cut would need to be smaller as the city production is increasing. For Modern Era cutting would not be needed at all.


What would be the result of that - more wars, small wars, especially in the beginning. Now the units are to expensive to risk a war with 1 unit, and to get a reasonable amount of them I would need to wait 1000-2000 years (because I cannot focus on building units all the time).

Second problem that it solves is that usually I get Archery and Bronze Working even before I thing about building second unit so a "little moster" called Warrior is usually a single freak in my army (unless I find a ruin and it's gets free upgrade to Spearmen :) )

I would disagree with that. My test game, I had spearmen coming out at around 5 turns with the current changes. Doesn't need to go any weaker.

I am sorry but i have to disagree with that. I played a whole day on huge map, with max number of civs and states on marathon.

I love the changes done here and you can actually have small wars all over without any problems. And gold is very easy to get - just buy few units.
----------

Here are some observation from last night testing: (i am still in early game !)
(i may be wrong ofc game is still new :) )

huge map
max number of civs
marathon
race: egypt

- It's not possible to rush all wonders with Egypt like in vanilla simply because teching is taking too long
- Great Pyramid is losing a bit on value because it's either not worth rushing to it because you must carefully plan what to tech or you simply don't feel the need for it since game is long.
- Cities can grow very fast and you usually must know when to stop growing them so they can catch up with tech. (in my case well and granary were wasted build time)
- More time spent in certain age gives you more time to micro units, and wage a lot of wars without any fear they will be obsolete that fast
- By the time you finish your first or second tech u will find yourself explored almost whole map (huge)
- Rune that gives free tech is very imbalanced here
- Larger empires will have much more advantage than smaller ones in terms of culture and science in later game.
- regular resources feel more important than in vanilla

I hope this helps :D

I'll take a look at all this soone. ;)

Your mod looks very promising so far, I just wanted to suggest that you maybe shouldn't mix all these features.

Balance changes are one thing, new tile improvements another, and UI changes a third thing. I'd like try the balance changes soon, but I'm not sure if I want an iconless new improvement (does the AI use it right?) or the build queue change.

Or is it easy to split your mod for the user?

I don't want to flood the mod database with a bunch of little mods.

Splitting it isn't hard, I kept every change in it's own file (or folder, in the case of UI changes)

alright, how can I apply the processes right? this is what i've done
<GameData>
- <Table name="Processes">
<Column name="ID" type="integer" primarykey="true" autoincrement="true" />
<Column name="Type" type="text" notnull="true" unique="true" />
<Column name="Description" type="text" />
<Column name="Help" type="text" />
<Column name="Strategy" type="text" />
<Column name="TechPrereq" type="text" reference="Technologies(Type)" />
<Column name="PortraitIndex" type="integer" default="-1" />
<Column name="IconAtlas" type="text" default="NULL" reference="IconTextureAtlases(Atlas)" />
</Table>
- <Table name="Process_ProductionYields">
<Column name="ProcessType" type="text" reference="Processes(Type)" />
<Column name="YieldType" type="text" reference="Yields(Type)" />
<Column name="Yield" type="integer" notnull="true" />
</Table>
- <Processes>
- <Row>
<ID>0</ID>
<Type>PROCESS_IDLE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE_HELP</Help>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<TechPrereq>TECH_AGRICULTURE</TechPrereq>
<IconAtlas>CITIZEN_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
<PortraitIndex>9</PortraitIndex>
</Row>
- <Row>
<ProcessType>PROCESS_WEALTH</ProcessType>
<YieldType>YIELD_GOLD</YieldType>
<Yield>5</Yield>
</Row>
</GameData>

This is the only file I made, I try looking up the modder's guide and it really did not give me any infomation on how to properly apply special things such as processes and other infomation. So I am having a hard time. Do i also need to add this into the technology tree? I've already listed it to be with Agriculture, but it did not appear? So what am I doing wrong?

What I am triyng to do is add a process called Idle that you automatically get at the start of the game, I don't know if I had to put it on a technology, but if I have to, I already set it to Technology. Now i am thinking that I might need art, and all i need is that same art file that is used for the UI "wake" icon art to add for processing in the list. How do I Make it appear in the list?

Tech prereq has no default (can check the schema there, which btw should not be included in mod files. ;)), so what you did there works. Try something like this:
<GameData>
<Processes>
<Row>
<ID>0</ID>
<Type>PROCESS_IDLE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE_HELP</Help>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_PROCESS_IDLE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<TechPrereq>TECH_AGRICULTURE</TechPrereq>
<IconAtlas>CITIZEN_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
<PortraitIndex>9</PortraitIndex>
</Row>
<Row>
<ProcessType>PROCESS_IDLE</ProcessType>
<YieldType>YIELD_GOLD</YieldType>
<Yield>5</Yield>
</Row>
</GameData>

This is fantastic Valkrionn! Great to see it. May I make a few suggestions for changes which you may like to add. These are things that I think will help balance the game out a bit more:
1: In keeping with the communitywide thirst for more production I think that lumber mills and mines should get +1 production at some point. Mines at machinery or engineering and lumbermills at steam power. (love the inclusion of the workshop btw!)

2: On a similar vein you could make it so culture is equally (or at least a bit more than currently) likely to expand onto hills as it is onto flatland so we can actually build mines!

3: Trading posts yield increases from 2 to 3 gold at printing press (hopefully this will balance out the increased maintenance you will be paying due to having more buiildings in every city)

Hope you like my ideas, looking forward to giving your mod a go!

I'm not sure I want to buff mines (I've said before I hate the focus on hills; Or rather, the over-focus on them. Hills went from useful to required, which is bad IMO), but will be looking at production again. Specifically tech-improvements like you mentioned.

I doubt I can modify that, would take DLL.

That would go with the first one, will take a look.

With improvements, though, I have a plan involving GP that I want to try and get working first. Will definitely take Lua scripting, but we'll see. ;)

im kinda vexxed at the build que mod, since i hate pressing back every time

Same, I'm going to work on it soon.

Any way to have the build list automatically close again? Also, what other mods is this one incompatible with? I'm still using Iceciro's mods.

Should be compatible with any that do not modify certain interface files. Ice's would be compatible.

Don't know if it was mentioned, but there is a global value that you can adjust to affects the costs of all buildings...and of all units. Its simpler than having to adjust them all with a find/replace or a sql statement.

For future mods that might be of use to you.

I know, but I dislike changing things like that. In the same way, I could have just tweaked gamespeed settings.

I vastly prefer updating costs. By tweaking core values, I run far less risk of borking the AI, and keep it compatible with everything else.

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 12:28 PM
Trying to make an inde process that give you half of gold then the one on currency.

do I really need to copy and paste the whole table like I did to the top? the one's with the columns?

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 12:36 PM
Trying to make an inde process that give you half of gold then the one on currency.

do I really need to copy and paste the whole table like I did to the top? the one's with the columns?

No, the table is the schema. Do not include those in mod files. ;)

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 01:28 PM
Ok, I did previously deleted the tables, I did the same thing as you did when you posted that code, however it still did not appear in the game for some reason. What is do I need to do to get this idle process working?

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 01:31 PM
You are doing this from within modbuddy, correct? Well, assuming you are: You need to tell the game to load your xml. To do this, go to the modproperties (Right-click the project itself over in the table on the right, select properties), go to actions, and enter the following:

OnModActivated | UpdateDatabase | Your xml file here

For me, it would be:

OnModActivated | UpdateDatabase | XML/GameInfo/ImprovedWealth.xml

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 01:55 PM
You are doing this from within modbuddy, correct? Well, assuming you are: You need to tell the game to load your xml. To do this, go to the modproperties (Right-click the project itself over in the table on the right, select properties), go to actions, and enter the following:

OnModActivated | UpdateDatabase | Your xml file here

For me, it would be:

OnModActivated | UpdateDatabase | XML/GameInfo/ImprovedWealth.xml

So i did that, I put in:

OnModActivated | UpdateDatabase | Idle Process.xml

Also yes, i've did this whole thing on modbuddy, I've been following Kael's Modding guide and most of the modding is based on using this special program. So I used it to follow up on some of this, and try to find infomation on how to do processes, but he didn't add anything like that, just basic "how to do civilization, objects, and units" and how to published your mod into the game browser.

I've entered the info, and saved my build, yet it still somehow not appearing in the game.

edit:

Idle process.xml is my file name, but from your own, it sound like you added a pathfile for it.

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 02:09 PM
So i did that, I put in:

OnModActivated | UpdateDatabase | Idle Process.xml

Also yes, i've did this whole thing on modbuddy, I've been following Kael's Modding guide and most of the modding is based on using this special program. So I used it to follow up on some of this, and try to find infomation on how to do processes, but he didn't add anything like that, just basic "how to do civilization, objects, and units" and how to published your mod into the game browser.

I've entered the info, and saved my build, yet it still somehow not appearing in the game.

edit:

Idle process.xml is my file name, but from your own, it sound like you added a pathfile for it.

Did you go to Build -> Build Solution?

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 02:11 PM
I thinking that I should not add a space on files...

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 02:12 PM
Did you go to Build -> Build Solution?

yes, and Build Idle Process, I always click those after I changed my files.

edit:

I forgot to add a /processes in the end!

edit:

somehow it still not working... do I need to exit out of the modbuddy to make it work?

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 02:17 PM
*bad triple posting*

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 02:18 PM
If you're still having issues, you can pm me the project and I'll take a look at it. ;)

In other news: Here's an early version of the new resource display. Currently it only shows bonus resources, but it will be displaying luxuries and strategic resources soon. ;)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/resourcesdisplay.png

It's been built out of Kael's modlist (which I've incorporated as well, as new screens cannot be done modularly). Ultimately, it will display Luxuries, then Bonus resources, then Strategic resources, in that order. It will also show how many you gain/lose from trade, in the case of Luxuries and Strategic ones, and totals.

I may or may not make it only display those that you possess.

Opera
Sep 30, 2010, 02:39 PM
Make it an option right of the Close button ;)

skrewler
Sep 30, 2010, 05:35 PM
I seem to be having a problem with the build queue mod, I think. Anytime I gold purchase something the queue cleared and the unit I purchased is put into the build queue.

e.g. I'm building the pyramids natural wonder, I purchase a worker, worker shows up at the city, pyramids is gone from the queue, and another worker is being produced instead.

Just got the latest version off of the ModHub @ ~16:00 PST 9/30/2010

EDIT: Why are you incorporating other peoples mods into yours? Are the authors updating their mods through you or something?

isthmus
Sep 30, 2010, 07:50 PM
Liking the mod, had a few games on it so far (only up to about mid-renaissance for all of em), just leaving a few thoughts on how they played out...


LOTS better in terms of production vs tech advancement adjustments. I've actually been able to use my UUs before they obselete. The AI tends to fare a lot better with the extra units too - they can now produce to replace units they lose so easily due to their average combat tactics.
The increase in production makes a few of the key economy buildings much easier to obtain.. once I've got a few markets and libraries constructed the tech discovery speeds up considerably and gold maintainance becomes significantly less difficult to manage.
The (very) early game is a little boring due to basic tile improvements being too spread out over the first few techs. The slower tech speed means that workers can't do much for a while and once the initial scout&monument is done there's still a bit of waiting time before any improvement can take place. Improvements without techs would be highly useful here, even if resources aren't accessed until that tech is discovered.
I've never used the workshop improvement. Production is more important in civ5, sure.. but I will plan a city with available hills to be a production city and flatlands is reserved for pop growth and specialists. If all else fails I can rush-buy. Maybe it's the civ4 in me still telling me to make the most out of the food from grassland tiles...


Anyways, the new plans for the mod sound cool, will be keeping an eye on this one :scan:

charon2112
Sep 30, 2010, 08:36 PM
forgive this super-noob question, but in civ V I have downloaded and enabled this mod, but I don't see any difference when I mouse over a food resource. How can I tell if the mod is working as it should?

Thanks guys. :)

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
Liking the mod, had a few games on it so far (only up to about mid-renaissance for all of em), just leaving a few thoughts on how they played out...


LOTS better in terms of production vs tech advancement adjustments. I've actually been able to use my UUs before they obselete. The AI tends to fare a lot better with the extra units too - they can now produce to replace units they lose so easily due to their average combat tactics.
The increase in production makes a few of the key economy buildings much easier to obtain.. once I've got a few markets and libraries constructed the tech discovery speeds up considerably and gold maintainance becomes significantly less difficult to manage.
The (very) early game is a little boring due to basic tile improvements being too spread out over the first few techs. The slower tech speed means that workers can't do much for a while and once the initial scout&monument is done there's still a bit of waiting time before any improvement can take place. Improvements without techs would be highly useful here, even if resources aren't accessed until that tech is discovered.
I've never used the workshop improvement. Production is more important in civ5, sure.. but I will plan a city with available hills to be a production city and flatlands is reserved for pop growth and specialists. If all else fails I can rush-buy. Maybe it's the civ4 in me still telling me to make the most out of the food from grassland tiles...


Anyways, the new plans for the mod sound cool, will be keeping an eye on this one :scan:



Glad to hear the flow is better; I'm of that opinion as well. ;)
Hmm... I may have to take a look at that.
I agree, but I'm not sure what to do about it yet.
See, I refuse to use gold to buy things unless I absolutely have to. Gold for me is used to feed City States. :lol:


forgive this super-noob question, but in civ V I have downloaded and enabled this mod, but I don't see any difference when I mouse over a food resource. How can I tell if the mod is working as it should?

Thanks guys. :)

The food resource in and of itself won't give any more than in Civ5. You have to improve it first.

So Wheat will still just be 1:food:. But when you farm it, it will gain 1:food: from the farm and 2:food: because of the wheat, for a total of 4:food: (plus tile yields).

yanner39
Sep 30, 2010, 08:57 PM
So for those who have tried the Mod (which sounds great by the way), do you find that you are building more buildings? I mean, rarely do I ever build a Granary or a watermill because it takes forever. I would just as well spend gold on a couple of Maratimes city-states.

Also does the AI take advantage of these changes?

charon2112
Sep 30, 2010, 09:03 PM
The food resource in and of itself won't give any more than in Civ5. You have to improve it first.

So Wheat will still just be 1:food:. But when you farm it, it will gain 1:food: from the farm and 2:food: because of the wheat, for a total of 4:food: (plus tile yields).

Ah. thanks. :) will that show when I mouse over? ...or in the yield icon graphics? because--for instance--when I mouse over a cow, it just says +1 food when worked.

thanks for your work, BTW.

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 09:04 PM
It will show in the improvement display (as in, when a worker is on the tile, it will show +3 food for a farm, not 1), and will display on the tile itself after it's improved.

charon2112
Sep 30, 2010, 09:09 PM
It will show in the improvement display (as in, when a worker is on the tile, it will show +3 food for a farm, not 1), and will display on the tile itself after it's improved.

cool. thanks again.

darkedone02
Sep 30, 2010, 09:34 PM
did you get my pm Valkrionn?

GambleFish
Sep 30, 2010, 11:48 PM
Hey, Valk. Loved your work on RifE, this is looking really good to.

Just wanted to say, I know that you didn't make the queue mod, but there's a pretty annoying issue with it and purchasing units. People already said that if you purchase one, it will also go to the front of the queue. However, if you purchase a unit that needs a strategic resource, and you only have 1 of that resource available, it will go to the front of the queue and not get purchased. Is there some easy fix? I'm kinda dependent in my Songhai game for gold to buy troops, so having to train a swordsman or horseman manually every time one gets killed really slows me down.

Thanks and keep up the awesome work, I'm enjoying Civ V quite a bit more!

Valkrionn
Sep 30, 2010, 11:51 PM
did you get my pm Valkrionn?

Yes, but haven't had time to check it yet; Busy trying to figure out the UI. :lol;

Hey, Valk. Loved your work on RifE, this is looking really good to.

Just wanted to say, I know that you didn't make the queue mod, but there's a pretty annoying issue with it and purchasing units. People already said that if you purchase one, it will also go to the front of the queue. However, if you purchase a unit that needs a strategic resource, and you only have 1 of that resource available, it will go to the front of the queue and not get purchased. Is there some easy fix? I'm kinda dependent in my Songhai game for gold to buy troops, so having to train a swordsman or horseman manually every time one gets killed really slows me down.

Thanks and keep up the awesome work, I'm enjoying Civ V quite a bit more!

I was not aware of that particular issue (the one with the resources)... I will definitely be working on that aspect.

Dragonlord
Oct 01, 2010, 02:06 AM
Many thanx for this mod! I'm using it as my new standard, combined with Kaels Queen of the Iceni (for the large single unit graphics).

Production and research are now balanced much better, lots more fun than Vanilla!

The only issue I have is the annoying building queue, which you're already working on, I see. And I'm really looking forward to the new resource display. Will it also show which civ I'm trading a resource with and, even more important, who will trade a certain resource? This feature from Civ4 is what I'm missing most - as is now, I have to check each civ manually to find who will trade for my surplus resource... :mad:

guczy
Oct 01, 2010, 05:57 AM
First of all: i'm gonna love your mod, when the queue bug is fixed (TBH i dont even get what is special about that its just the basic queue (it seems to me) from CiV but enabled from the start and...wel...not working).

I've tried the other econ mods, the most i played with was the extra yields mod, and ive learnt a few things from that. First of all: King difficulty feels like immortal, especially if you dont go on a conquering spree right at the start, cause with extra food and gold + the AI cheats your enemies will be so friggin strong that you will be behind 15-20 techs by the industrial age. I have no problems whatsoever staying on top of the demographics in vanilla on king difficulty (uuntil one of the AI-s takes over a whole continent and has like 50-100 cities), but with just a little added gold (that mod gives 3G on TP-s) and food they take off. I've stopped most of my games around the renaissance, cause i was 10-12th in all areas every damn time.

What i want to say with this: do not increase food and gold yields any more in your mod, cause it will make the game friggin impossible on higher difficulties than prince. Especially that with the gazillion gold the AI-s amass they have research pacts left and right. But i think you are on the right track with your changes. (although i'm kidna getting the feeling that the only things that need a change from vanilla are resource yields and tech speed, both of which you seem to have nailed.

And pretty pls remove teh queue thingy until its fixed...i really wanna play your mod, but right now i just cant, it annoys me to tears :-)

Lebowski89
Oct 01, 2010, 06:13 AM
I have downloaded this mod but yeah, the broken queue thingo has stopped me from trying. Wish we could remove it.

Necro-
Oct 01, 2010, 06:44 AM
im not sure about the slower tech rate, even on standard speed it takes 100 turns to get into clsasical era, it's not a big problem later but early on when you dont have tech, for example i ended up making warriors, and selling them because i couldnt build anything else!

Ilikepie
Oct 01, 2010, 07:06 AM
Great job!

is it possible to get the source files to make changes myself?

Lettow-Vorbeck
Oct 01, 2010, 09:23 AM
Oh.

This mod is exactly (well, close enough) what I just requested in another thread. Awesome.

However, I thought technology rate is just fine in Vanilla version of the game. However, what I didn't like of, was the production speed of units and buildings.

With this mod the early game is just plainly boring. You can just sit around and click next turn as you wait that your workers can actually do something. This mod, I'm trying to be honest here, cures the production problem, but replaces it with a tech problem.

For my taste technology rate should be decreased back to its Vanilla form. Otherwise things look fairly good. But there are still a lot of players who enjoy fast games. Maybe some other mod is meant to please us. But anyway, great job here.

Keep up the good work.

Opera
Oct 01, 2010, 09:37 AM
I disagree with the tech rate, it was too fast in Vanilla. Couldn't even use new things that there was newer things already!

Valkrionn
Oct 01, 2010, 09:45 AM
Many thanx for this mod! I'm using it as my new standard, combined with Kaels Queen of the Iceni (for the large single unit graphics).

Production and research are now balanced much better, lots more fun than Vanilla!

The only issue I have is the annoying building queue, which you're already working on, I see. And I'm really looking forward to the new resource display. Will it also show which civ I'm trading a resource with and, even more important, who will trade a certain resource? This feature from Civ4 is what I'm missing most - as is now, I have to check each civ manually to find who will trade for my surplus resource... :mad:

Not initially. The first version will just show what resources you have, how many are traded, and how many you gained from trade. Once that is working, I'll work on other tweaks to it. ;)

Trying to figure out the damn tab interface. :p

First of all: i'm gonna love your mod, when the queue bug is fixed (TBH i dont even get what is special about that its just the basic queue (it seems to me) from CiV but enabled from the start and...wel...not working).

I've tried the other econ mods, the most i played with was the extra yields mod, and ive learnt a few things from that. First of all: King difficulty feels like immortal, especially if you dont go on a conquering spree right at the start, cause with extra food and gold + the AI cheats your enemies will be so friggin strong that you will be behind 15-20 techs by the industrial age. I have no problems whatsoever staying on top of the demographics in vanilla on king difficulty (uuntil one of the AI-s takes over a whole continent and has like 50-100 cities), but with just a little added gold (that mod gives 3G on TP-s) and food they take off. I've stopped most of my games around the renaissance, cause i was 10-12th in all areas every damn time.

What i want to say with this: do not increase food and gold yields any more in your mod, cause it will make the game friggin impossible on higher difficulties than prince. Especially that with the gazillion gold the AI-s amass they have research pacts left and right. But i think you are on the right track with your changes. (although i'm kidna getting the feeling that the only things that need a change from vanilla are resource yields and tech speed, both of which you seem to have nailed.

And pretty pls remove teh queue thingy until its fixed...i really wanna play your mod, but right now i just cant, it annoys me to tears :-)

Actually, it allows you to queue things at the front of the queue, via a shift click, or wipe the queue and place just the new item via a ctrl-click.

I have no plans to increase base yields. I dislike that approach.

And the tech-queue will be improved. ;)

I have downloaded this mod but yeah, the broken queue thingo has stopped me from trying. Wish we could remove it.

Sorry to hear that. As I said, next version will have it improved. :goodjob:

Great job!

is it possible to get the source files to make changes myself?

Sure! Go into your My Documents/My Games/Civ5/MODS/Economy Mod. All the source files come with the mod. ;)

Oh.

This mod is exactly (well, close enough) what I just requested in another thread. Awesome.

However, I thought technology rate is just fine in Vanilla version of the game. However, what I didn't like of, was the production speed of units and buildings.

With this mod the early game is just plainly boring. You can just sit around and click next turn as you wait that your workers can actually do something. This mod, I'm trying to be honest here, cures the production problem, but replaces it with a tech problem.

For my taste technology rate should be decreased back to its Vanilla form. Otherwise things look fairly good. But there are still a lot of players who enjoy fast games. Maybe some other mod is meant to please us. But anyway, great job here.

Keep up the good work.

That likely won't happen. I'll be adding things to improve that early game (which I do recognize), but will not reduce techs.

Let me explain my reasoning. I had no real issues with production as it was. At all. My issues were with techs; They were going by so fast that you could skip ever building some units! I hated that. :lol:

I can not just reduce reduce build speeds, as then you'd be flooded with units and have difficulty coordinating them. So I had to use a mix; Reduced costs, and increased tech costs. I may tweak the exact numbers a bit, but I will not reverse that change; It does exactly what I want, which is make each unit relevant, provide time for you to play each era fully. :p

Valkrionn
Oct 01, 2010, 09:46 AM
I disagree with the tech rate, it was too fast in Vanilla. Couldn't even use new things that there was newer things already!

Heh. You replied while I did, but yeah, pretty much my reason for it. ;)

tokala
Oct 01, 2010, 10:52 AM
It seems that road maintenance it set to 0 with this mod. Is it intended? And if it is, should probably be mentioned in the first post. Or did I miss it somewhere :confused:

Valkrionn
Oct 01, 2010, 11:03 AM
It was not intended, no. I had been testing something for someone else (decimal maintenance; Not possible), and neglected to remove it before uploading it. It's gone in v2. ;)

Russiophile
Oct 01, 2010, 12:45 PM
Valkrionn,

This mod looks great. However, you mentioned the cost of roads and how the limited number was a let down.
Me too. I like roads. Lot's of roads. Any chance you can tweak the cost of roads in your mod?

Many Thanks!

tokala
Oct 01, 2010, 12:57 PM
Valkrionn,

This mod looks great. However, you mentioned the cost of roads and how the limited number was a let down.
Me too. I like roads. Lot's of roads. Any chance you can tweak the cost of roads in your mod?

Many Thanks!

Isn't it an integral component of the Civ5 combat system that you DON'T have roads everywhere? A road network between the cities pays for itself, if you want more, you have to get the money for it from somewhere else. I like it :)
Minor point: it would devaluate the Iroquois unique fast wood movement, and they are weak/situational enough anyway.

Potential bug: Farmed floodplains wheat tile 6:food: even without civil service, RifE yields in Civ5 :mischief:

Valkrionn
Oct 01, 2010, 01:24 PM
No, roads are going back to default maintenance. I don't have a problem with them, I was just testing something that wasn't working for someone else.

On the floodplains: I know. Right now all those resources do is improve the tile, so it SHOULD have a strong effect. It will change when they have other benefits. ;)

Puer
Oct 01, 2010, 01:25 PM
Valkrionn,
Any chance you can tweak the cost of roads in your mod?

Many Thanks!

Until there is no v.2, just search ....\Docs\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Economy Mod (v 1)\XML\GameInfo\ImprovedWealth.xml

and edit this (those are default vanilla values, you can just copy-paste):
<Routes>
<Update>
<Set GoldMaintenance="1" />
<Where Type="ROUTE_ROAD" />
</Update>
<Update>
<Set GoldMaintenance="2" />
<Where Type="ROUTE_RAILROAD" />
</Update>
</Routes>
or just delete this update section from ImprovedWealth.xml ;)

Btw, thanks Valkrionn for great balance mod. I like it :king:

Abremms
Oct 01, 2010, 01:33 PM
Let me explain my reasoning. I had no real issues with production as it was. At all. My issues were with techs; They were going by so fast that you could skip ever building some units! I hated that. :lol:

I can not just reduce reduce build speeds, as then you'd be flooded with units and have difficulty coordinating them. So I had to use a mix; Reduced costs, and increased tech costs. I may tweak the exact numbers a bit, but I will not reverse that change; It does exactly what I want, which is make each unit relevant, provide time for you to play each era fully. :p

is it possible to set the tech progression on a curve, so it gets through the ancient era a bit quicker, thn slows down in the classic? maybe not the best idea... could be better to just add more stuff to do in the ancient era. either way, i think the tech rate works quite well for most of the game, but I have to agree that the first couple dozen turns can drag a bit.

Valkrionn
Oct 01, 2010, 03:16 PM
Until there is no v.2, just search ....\Docs\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Economy Mod (v 1)\XML\GameInfo\ImprovedWealth.xml

and edit this (those are default vanilla values, you can just copy-paste):
<Routes>
<Update>
<Set GoldMaintenance="1" />
<Where Type="ROUTE_ROAD" />
</Update>
<Update>
<Set GoldMaintenance="2" />
<Where Type="ROUTE_RAILROAD" />
</Update>
</Routes>or just delete this update section from ImprovedWealth.xml ;)

Btw, thanks Valkrionn for great balance mod. I like it :king:

That works, yeah. ;) Easier to just delete it though.

is it possible to set the tech progression on a curve, so it gets through the ancient era a bit quicker, thn slows down in the classic? maybe not the best idea... could be better to just add more stuff to do in the ancient era. either way, i think the tech rate works quite well for most of the game, but I have to agree that the first couple dozen turns can drag a bit.

Possible, but not via a flat modifier like I used. My tech adjustments took one line of sql. :lol:

Nicky21
Oct 01, 2010, 03:17 PM
Is it just me or have the turn times increased when using this mod? It als ads a short period when the game is completely unresponsive....

Necro-
Oct 01, 2010, 03:21 PM
yea as abremms said like the slower pace but its a bit too slow in ancient era, where ur kinda stuck 10-15 turns on standard speed to get a new structure, then another 14ish turns to get the next tech meanwhile your forced to just build warriors and then sell them as you can't do anything.

another idea if a curved approach si possible would be having the early non-military techs take shorter amount of time to get the game rolling, things like pottery, calender, the wheel being researched quite quickly so u can actually start developing ciites.

for example in my game i got maybe 8-10 techs by turn 100, and i hadn't even gotten to the classical era!

Puer
Oct 01, 2010, 04:10 PM
Necro- don't sell warriors, make war ;) Enjoy ancient wars! U can always build workers & settlers also if you are not into war...

Necro-
Oct 01, 2010, 04:39 PM
well i mean at this point im refering to pretty much all i have is warriors

and in this particular game i was making warriors every 2 turns.

as for settlers thats an idea, but the problem is overexpansion. the ait ends to overexpand i had 2 cities each ai next to me had 3-5.

now, as i said the slow rate is good, but imho it should only really be that slow after a certain tech...say starting classical or medieval era

skrewler
Oct 01, 2010, 04:56 PM
EDIT: Why are you incorporating other peoples mods into yours? Are the authors updating their mods through you or something?

Could you comment on this? I read through the whole thread and the author of the Luxury Resource view asked to remove it. Some people flamed him for it, I don't really think that's fair to the author. I agree with him.

It just doesn't make sense to incorporate other peoples mods into your economy mod. If you want the extra features, then download their mods separately. Will your project just continue to add people's mods that you think are useful?

If this was a collection of mods it might be a different story. If someone is maintaining a modpack that included your economy mod and some other ones that he's keeping up to date and done some testing/hacking to make sure everything is compatible, then I think that would be useful.

As it stands now, your mod includes another authors mod that contains bugs.

If you have some good reason for packaging these other mods with yours, I'd like to hear it.

Also wanted to tell you, thanks for your economy mod. I did a playthrough and it was a much more enjoyable experience.

Afforess
Oct 01, 2010, 05:00 PM
Could you comment on this? I read through the whole thread and the author of the Luxury Resource view asked to remove it. Some people flamed him for it, I don't really think that's fair to the author. I agree with him.

It just doesn't make sense to incorporate other peoples mods into your economy mod. If you want the extra features, then download their mods separately. Will your project just continue to add people's mods that you think are useful?

If this was a collection of mods it might be a different story. If someone is maintaining a modpack that included your economy mod and some other ones that he's keeping up to date and done some testing/hacking to make sure everything is compatible, then I think that would be useful.

As it stands now, your mod includes another authors mod that contains bugs.

If you have some good reason for packaging these other mods with yours, I'd like to hear it.

Also wanted to tell you, thanks for your economy mod. I did a playthrough and it was a much more enjoyable experience.

I believe Valkrionn stated that if he DIDN'T include the mod list into his mod, it would be incompatible. Some mods are incompatible with each other because of the files they modify, and the only way to reconcile this is to merge them manually and include them together.

Russiophile
Oct 01, 2010, 05:03 PM
Until there is no v.2, just search ....\Docs\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Economy Mod (v 1)\XML\GameInfo\ImprovedWealth.xml

and edit this (those are default vanilla values, you can just copy-paste):
<Routes>
<Update>
<Set GoldMaintenance="1" />
<Where Type="ROUTE_ROAD" />
</Update>
<Update>
<Set GoldMaintenance="2" />
<Where Type="ROUTE_RAILROAD" />
</Update>
</Routes>
or just delete this update section from ImprovedWealth.xml ;)

Btw, thanks Valkrionn for great balance mod. I like it :king:

Thanks guy!

Valkrionn
Oct 01, 2010, 05:15 PM
well i mean at this point im refering to pretty much all i have is warriors

and in this particular game i was making warriors every 2 turns.

as for settlers thats an idea, but the problem is overexpansion. the ait ends to overexpand i had 2 cities each ai next to me had 3-5.

now, as i said the slow rate is good, but imho it should only really be that slow after a certain tech...say starting classical or medieval era

I'm going to add more to do in the early game, and it is easily possible to check for the era of a tech, so I'll probably do that as well.

Could you comment on this? I read through the whole thread and the author of the Luxury Resource view asked to remove it. Some people flamed him for it, I don't really think that's fair to the author. I agree with him.

It just doesn't make sense to incorporate other peoples mods into your economy mod. If you want the extra features, then download their mods separately. Will your project just continue to add people's mods that you think are useful?

If this was a collection of mods it might be a different story. If someone is maintaining a modpack that included your economy mod and some other ones that he's keeping up to date and done some testing/hacking to make sure everything is compatible, then I think that would be useful.

As it stands now, your mod includes another authors mod that contains bugs.

If you have some good reason for packaging these other mods with yours, I'd like to hear it.

Also wanted to tell you, thanks for your economy mod. I did a playthrough and it was a much more enjoyable experience.

Mostly because it is a UI addition that I feel should be added to the main game in some form or another (If I can get these tabs working, that would be a better way to do it, however).

In the case of the buildqueue mod, it is a modification of existing files, and thus not modular. Meaning if in the future I do anything to those files, it is no longer compatible with my mod; Easier to include it, since I like it (granted, there are issues, and I will be working on those). The other one is actually modular, and yes, can be removed. I simply view UI additions as so core to the game that I'd like to include them where possible.

As I've said numerous times, I am not making this mod purely to release it. I am making this mod so I have a way to test the suggestions I've made to the devs (keep in mind, I was and still am one of the testers), and gauge the response to said changes. If I see an addition that I feel should be in the core game, I will merge it or add my own variant of it. That is simply the nature of this mod.

I believe Valkrionn stated that if he DIDN'T include the mod list into his mod, it would be incompatible. Some mods are incompatible with each other because of the files they modify, and the only way to reconcile this is to merge them manually and include them together.

Nah, that one was an addition and was entirely modular as a result. I just believe there should be some kind of resource display.

Necro-
Oct 01, 2010, 06:16 PM
i'd recommend adding a readme and stating which addon mods (eg luxury list) is included as-in (no changes) and which version, for example if you added say the luxury addon but had to change something it's not as easy to update as say if you just include it say v2 and a new version comes out it's simple enough to update it.

darkedone02
Oct 01, 2010, 07:43 PM
well at least my trainer help make me get unlimited gold so I don't have to worry about losing money when you got so much. In Vanilla, on continent, if you conquer the whole island, and try to build every single building, I get around -200 gold income. I have not conquer any of the cities states, instead I ally all of them, and I annex most of the capitol cities and raze the rest of the cities. I was still trying to colonize the whole continent.

Lebowski89
Oct 01, 2010, 09:04 PM
Well I tried it anyway and apart from the queue bug it's great. Thanks for this.

Metal_Head89
Oct 01, 2010, 10:04 PM
Awesome Mod! I got a bit sick of being in Industrial at 1200 - 1300. Now I'm right at the time ( or maybe 30 years early max) but it doesn't seem the AI progresses as fast with the techs as I do, I guess its time to curb the difficulty up :)

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 04:13 AM
i'd recommend adding a readme and stating which addon mods (eg luxury list) is included as-in (no changes) and which version, for example if you added say the luxury addon but had to change something it's not as easy to update as say if you just include it say v2 and a new version comes out it's simple enough to update it.

Planning to. ;)

Lebowski89
Oct 02, 2010, 05:54 AM
eh, went to load my savegame that has your mod enabled and I got my first run time error:( I really want to be able to continue this game as it is going great so far, and my production city has 6 silver mines next to it.

davidlee
Oct 02, 2010, 07:47 AM
Short idea: how about allowing two military units on city tiles with a castle?

oh, nice mod btw.

Afforess
Oct 02, 2010, 08:19 AM
Short idea: how about allowing two military units on city tiles with a castle?

oh, nice mod btw.

Not possible ATM, modders can't add things like that.

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 11:25 AM
Short idea: how about allowing two military units on city tiles with a castle?

oh, nice mod btw.

As Afforess said, not possible.

Well, maybe via scripting, but I don't know if the necessary function is exposed (nor would I do it that way if it was)

The Boz
Oct 02, 2010, 11:58 AM
That works, yeah. ;) Easier to just delete it though.



Possible, but not via a flat modifier like I used. My tech adjustments took one line of sql. :lol:

It's possible with five lines of SQL. Add a WHERE and the era argument to each line, and a different modifier, going from 1.1 and ending with 1.65 or something.

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 12:16 PM
It's possible with five lines of SQL. Add a WHERE and the era argument to each line, and a different modifier, going from 1.1 and ending with 1.65 or something.

I'm aware. I've even said so in a later post. Just not possible with a flat modifier on all techs, like I did. :p


All I had meant with that was that I did not change the balance between different techs; I adjusted them all together.

The Boz
Oct 02, 2010, 12:19 PM
Sorry, I only had time to read the first page. I now feel ridiculous.

Thormodr
Oct 02, 2010, 12:19 PM
This looks good. ^^

I'll try it after I complete my Arabian game. :)

sresk
Oct 02, 2010, 03:45 PM
another thing you may want to look at changing:

Flood plains to 3 food so they are not just normal plains

teejing
Oct 02, 2010, 05:53 PM
I hope you can include some of these changes :

-link culture penalty to the amount of military units instead of cities

-diplomatic votes occur every x turns, the player with the most votes gets 1 diplo point. y diplopoints needed for diplo victory.

- buff buildings, maybe some wonders

thx in advance

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 05:59 PM
I hope you can include some of these changes :

-link culture penalty to the amount of military units instead of cities

-diplomatic votes occur every x turns, the player with the most votes gets 1 diplo point. y diplopoints needed for diplo victory.

- buff buildings, maybe some wonders

thx in advance


Not going to happen, without DLL. Besides, I like the current implementation, thought I might modifiy it based on population.
Again, not without DLL.
Plan to look at them, but no specific plans yet.

teejing
Oct 02, 2010, 06:13 PM
Thx for the fast answer!

Oh well, to me it seems military victory is easier to achieve than the others. Are you considering making culture/diplo stronger?

Also i hate that a war monger can make diplo victory impossible by conquering the city states, can you do something about it?

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 06:24 PM
Thx for the fast answer!

Oh well, to me it seems military victory is easier to achieve than the others. Are you considering making culture/diplo stronger?

Also i hate that a war monger can make diplo victory impossible by conquering the city states, can you do something about it?

Heh. I've won equally well with either cultural or conquest. Never won a diplo victory, though.

And it's possible. I'm not sure how they are set up, so it depends on what is open to me without the DLL.

teejing
Oct 02, 2010, 06:34 PM
So honored to chat with the master,

well about the diplomatic victory ,i think that the number of votes you need are 1/2 of all city states. If more than 50% of city states get annexed, you have to become militaristic yourself to free them.

Ah and since i get the chance to talk to you, is it possible to effectively improve the ai now, or is the DLL needed for that too? AI goes to war in my games, 100%. They even pity my army 3 turns into the game...

edit: hopefully i can take your time and let you answer me my last question : Why does civ5 process everything just when i end my turn and not while i do my turn? can it be changed?

Thx in adcance and sorry i am using up all your time.

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 06:51 PM
So honored to chat with the master,

well about the diplomatic victory ,i think that the number of votes you need are 1/2 of all city states. If more than 50% of city states get annexed, you have to become militaristic yourself to free them.

Ah and since i get the chance to talk to you, is it possible to effectively improve the ai now, or is the DLL needed for that too? AI goes to war in my games, 100%. They even pity my army 3 turns into the game...

edit: hopefully i can take your time and let you answer me my last question : Why does civ5 process everything just when i end my turn and not while i do my turn? can it be changed?

Thx in adcance and sorry i am using up all your time.

Far from a master. :lol:


Yes, to win a diplo victory you often need to go to war to help your allies. However, that's actually fairly realistic.

AI likely needs DLL.

As in, units with standing orders don't move until after your turn? Not sure, but would take DLL to change.



Other news: Been working on some generic UI things. Here's one of them. :lol:

Rather than an xp bar, leaving you unaware of the stat, I reduced it to a standard text display. I personally far prefer it; I always have to mouse over the bar as it was. Had to move all the labels over a bit, to make sure there was room for the xp display, but looks good here. ;) Mousing over the display will show the unit's level.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/XPDisplay.png

teejing
Oct 02, 2010, 07:03 PM
I just cant stop asking, is it possible to deactivate movement animation just like the fight animations? Sadly i only got a 3,2ghz right now so the game becomes unbearable slow later on.

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 07:18 PM
I just cant stop asking, is it possible to deactivate movement animation just like the fight animations? Sadly i only got a 3,2ghz right now so the game becomes unbearable slow later on.

I'm not sure... I know there is an animation option in the Advanced start menu, but I think that's just combat.

I personally just play from the strategic view. I prefer it anyway. :lol:

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 10:36 PM
Alright people, have some questions for you all. :lol: Your answers determine how I implement a few things.

First: I've fixed the buildqueue mod. It now:


May be toggled on and off.
Does not come into effect in the "Choose Production" popup (meaning no more having to hit close every time the popup comes up)
Purchasing items no longer places them in the queue.


However... It annoys me to have to toggle it all the time. :lol: So, there are three options I see here; Which should I use?


Queue defaults to On, but may be disabled.
Queue is always on. Clicking an item places it in the queue and closes the dialog immediately (as it would if the queue was disabled), shift-clicking adds the item to the back of the queue (current standard), ctrl-clicking adds it to the front (current shift), alt-click clears the queue and then adds the item (Current ctrl)
Nothing. Leave it as it is and suck it up. :p

The first is simple. The second is nearly as simple, and while it prevents you from closing the queue, it otherwise has the same functionality.


Now for a second question: The "Choose your next tech" popup, should it open the side bar, or the tech screen? I'm open to either, think I slightly prefer the bar honestly, aside from the fact that it constantly resets the infopanel to the tech display.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 02, 2010, 10:58 PM
I say go with option 1. I sometimes like not having my queue up, but it is rare. As long as I can turn it off I'm golden.

Valkrionn
Oct 02, 2010, 11:05 PM
Yes, but with option two, it functions like in Civ4. You only get the queue functionality if you specifically choose to use it (via use of shift, ctrl, or alt clicks); A standard click just switches production. Meaning you can entirely ignore the queue functionality, aside from the expanded display in the city screen (If not for that one item, I honestly would not even ask. The civ4 method is unobtrusive and well done; I have no idea why it was changed).

Edit: Also, any opinion on the second question?

davidlee
Oct 03, 2010, 12:11 AM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=380955

there's a mod out already for game-wide 2upt play. Not saying this makes it easy / feasible, just thought I'd mention it ... (re: 2 units inside castles)

Valkrionn
Oct 03, 2010, 12:15 AM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=380955

there's a mod out already for game-wide 2upt play. Not saying this makes it easy / feasible, just thought I'd mention it ... (re: 2 units inside castles)

I'm aware there is a mod out (and likely played with it before any of you, by a few hours at least :p)... It involved changing a single line of xml.

However, that line is a constant, a global define. We have no control over specifics. For example, we can't have it apply to only civilian or military units, we can't have more units stack in cities, etc.

That mod exists because the capability was allowed for by the devs, not from any real code behind it. ;)

Lebowski89
Oct 03, 2010, 05:07 AM
I'm not sure... I know there is an animation option in the Advanced start menu, but I think that's just combat.

I personally just play from the strategic view. I prefer it anyway. :lol:

wow, I thought they added that as a joke:lol: I just have no idea what is going on when I switch to that view.

Anyway, I think the main problem with the build queue was not being able to buy units without disrupting what was being built. If you have fixed that than option 1 would be best imo.

davidlee
Oct 03, 2010, 05:28 AM
thanks for taking the time to explain.

My vote would be for #2 btw - my biggest annoyance with the default queue is how it takes 5 clicks + mouse movements to add something to the top or move the current item to the bottom. Poor UI design there.

Novem
Oct 03, 2010, 08:46 AM
I've used your Mod Valkirionn, I like it very much btw. :)

It would be nice to have the queue work as it did in Civ4 as it was easy to use. So I would vote for option 2.

darkedone02
Oct 03, 2010, 10:28 AM
I like option 2, I am already used to civ 5's default queue system, but I still like civ 4 better (and it's in-built world editor).

Valkrionn
Oct 03, 2010, 11:03 AM
Okay, going to go with option2. ;)

Any opinion on the tech popup?

Also, I got fed up with trying to get the damn tabs to work last night, decided to go with an infopane, and then just as I settle down to actually code the thing, someone else released a working version. :lol: As I've modified the TopPanel.lua file, the two mods will not work together separately... But he's given general permission for people to merge it, so this will be the resource pane used. Saves me a lot of time, for sure. :goodjob:

Can check it out here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9709601#post9709601

Elvince
Oct 03, 2010, 01:36 PM
just a word to say I really like your work so far, go with option 2 please :)
when are you planning to have the next version up?

cheers

Elvince

Ps: I find that reducing unit cost works pretty well with my AI tweak mod btw...

Valkrionn
Oct 03, 2010, 01:47 PM
just a word to say I really like your work so far, go with option 2 please :)
when are you planning to have the next version up?

cheers

Elvince

Ps: I find that reducing unit cost works pretty well with my AI tweak mod btw...

Hopefully sometime today; All that's really left is to remove some tweaks that I decided I didn't want (makes the top bar too cluttered at smaller resolutions), and then adding the new bonus resource buildings.

Right now, however, I have some calculus to be doing. Still in college. :lol:

dweebit
Oct 03, 2010, 02:44 PM
Love this mod. Just wanted to warn you guys though that it makes warring on higher difficulties really hard. I was playing an immortal game as Rome (I had whopping 8 irons in my territory!) and I started up a little border war with Russia (she had 4 irons). In our first skirmish, my goal was to take control of the far side of a mountain pass which joined our two empires. I wound up wiping out all of her swordsmen plus what was probably the majority of her auxiliaries while securing a small foothold on her side of the divide. However my own forces sustained heavy casualties while trying to be pooped out of the buttcrack of the mountain range so i decided I'd take 10 turns of peace to reinforce and heal. Turns out this was a horrible mistake. Within 5 turns, all 4 russian swordsmen were back on the field with a hefty stream of archers and spearmen coming to back them up. after maybe 30 more turns of trying desperately to thin Russia's ever expanding forces, I gave up. Presumably Caesar committed suicide in a bunker as the bits were being reset. Thats what I'd like to think.

Anyways, a combination of the AI "cheats" on higher difficulties and the decreased unit costs with this mod seems to snowball out of control. When russia had this sort of production out of her (fairly crappy looking) classical-age empire, god know what a medieval or later war would have been like.

Archwizard
Oct 03, 2010, 03:31 PM
For the new tech I strongly prefer the list on the left. If I want to see the whole tree I can click the button there.

Hystrix
Oct 03, 2010, 08:55 PM
I'd just like to say THANKS FOR THE MOD, it saved civ V for me. otherwise i think i'd be back on civ IV. ^_^

Kyoss
Oct 04, 2010, 03:36 AM
Heya Valkrionn,
i played a little with your mod and liked most of the changes you made. I'm not sure if i like the workshop yet, but its true most cities rely on mountains in the first period of the game for production.

I once had a city surrounded by nothing but grass & floodplains and the production was nil.

However i think your changes to the route-maintenance cost did reduce them to zero.

davidlee
Oct 04, 2010, 05:49 AM
I am strongly of the opinion that "select tech directly on tech tree" should be its own mod. It's small, self contained, orthogonal and has no obvious connection to the rest of the features bundled in the "economy mod".

Furthermore, people who don't want to run Economy Mod might want that behaviour.

It's rather nice how the Balance mods have been packaged separately and presented together in one thread - as the Economy Mod starts to tackle more disparate things (ie, as soon as you include anything I don't want included ;) I'd encourage consideration of the same strategy - but then, I'm sure you've already thought about it. Just sayin.

Franks
Oct 04, 2010, 07:29 AM
Anyways, a combination of the AI "cheats" on higher difficulties and the decreased unit costs with this mod seems to snowball out of control. When russia had this sort of production out of her (fairly crappy looking) classical-age empire, god know what a medieval or later war would have been like.

Immortal is intended to be hard. Actually I find Immortal and Diety the only challenging difficulties. In my current Immortal game as France, I'm in the industrial era controling all my continent (I conquered Iroquois, Japan (who conquered Egypt) and America without much problems. The war against Japan was really slow for the first 20-30 turns due to the full-strenght fighting Samurais. I think the key on higher diff is to be patient and bring reinforcements non-stop, eventually you'll progress. At the end of the war I had around 6 Cannons, 4 Knights and 16 Musketeers (Normal, Standard, Continents). Right now Russia controls the whole other continent and has an army about 3 times bigger than mine, so I plan to build a huge air/nuclear force and win by space.

Anyways, I love this mod, it makes the game more enjoyable, I play it without the workshop tho as in my last game the AI was spamming it everywhere and I didn't bother using it. Keep up the (very) good work, I really hope the devs will implement most of this in an official patch!

db0
Oct 04, 2010, 07:41 AM
Love this mod. Just wanted to warn you guys though that it makes warring on higher difficulties really hard. I was playing an immortal game as Rome (I had whopping 8 irons in my territory!) and I started up a little border war with Russia (she had 4 irons). In our first skirmish, my goal was to take control of the far side of a mountain pass which joined our two empires. I wound up wiping out all of her swordsmen plus what was probably the majority of her auxiliaries while securing a small foothold on her side of the divide. However my own forces sustained heavy casualties while trying to be pooped out of the buttcrack of the mountain range so i decided I'd take 10 turns of peace to reinforce and heal. Turns out this was a horrible mistake. Within 5 turns, all 4 russian swordsmen were back on the field with a hefty stream of archers and spearmen coming to back them up. after maybe 30 more turns of trying desperately to thin Russia's ever expanding forces, I gave up. Presumably Caesar committed suicide in a bunker as the bits were being reset. Thats what I'd like to think.

Anyways, a combination of the AI "cheats" on higher difficulties and the decreased unit costs with this mod seems to snowball out of control. When russia had this sort of production out of her (fairly crappy looking) classical-age empire, god know what a medieval or later war would have been like.


This mod actually makes the AI more challenging as it can recover from its losses and bring reinforcements before you manage to take all its cities (especially with the higher difficulty bonuses). All in all a great improvement.

I'll also like to mirror the idea that too many completely distinct modifications should be their own mod and keep things a bit modular.

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 08:03 AM
For the new tech I strongly prefer the list on the left. If I want to see the whole tree I can click the button there.

I agree, and have already removed that. :goodjob:

I'd just like to say THANKS FOR THE MOD, it saved civ V for me. otherwise i think i'd be back on civ IV. ^_^

Glad to hear you like it. ;)

Heya Valkrionn,
i played a little with your mod and liked most of the changes you made. I'm not sure if i like the workshop yet, but its true most cities rely on mountains in the first period of the game for production.

I once had a city surrounded by nothing but grass & floodplains and the production was nil.

However i think your changes to the route-maintenance cost did reduce them to zero.

Yeah, the workshop is a bit situational really, but can be useful if you have nothing else to rely on.

And the route maintenance did, yes, as it doesn't accept decimal values. I had not intended to have that in, was just a simple way to test for someone else which I then forgot to remove before releasing. :lol: It's been gone for the next version.

I am strongly of the opinion that "select tech directly on tech tree" should be its own mod. It's small, self contained, orthogonal and has no obvious connection to the rest of the features bundled in the "economy mod".

Furthermore, people who don't want to run Economy Mod might want that behaviour.

It's rather nice how the Balance mods have been packaged separately and presented together in one thread - as the Economy Mod starts to tackle more disparate things (ie, as soon as you include anything I don't want included ;) I'd encourage consideration of the same strategy - but then, I'm sure you've already thought about it. Just sayin.

Unfortunately, it does not work that way. If I do anything at all with the UI (And I will, as some features I want require it, and as I've said, this is more a showcase of changes I think should be made to the base game than anything else) I have to overwrite the entire file the change is made in. This means interface mods that affect the same thing are not compatible with one another, so I tend to include them.

For instance, I've added both a clock, and the ability to click your gold display to bring up the economic adviser. Sure, you could make each of those their own mod. But they would no longer function together; Both affect the top panel, with the way I implemented the clock (which I did because I think it looks far better).

WIth xml mods, however, if I see someone do something that I was going to do (and I'm satisfied with what they did), then I'll just recommend you use their mod. For instance, Afforess's Active City Defense mod. :goodjob:

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 08:07 AM
Immortal is intended to be hard. Actually I find Immortal and Diety the only challenging difficulties. In my current Immortal game as France, I'm in the industrial era controling all my continent (I conquered Iroquois, Japan (who conquered Egypt) and America without much problems. The war against Japan was really slow for the first 20-30 turns due to the full-strenght fighting Samurais. I think the key on higher diff is to be patient and bring reinforcements non-stop, eventually you'll progress. At the end of the war I had around 6 Cannons, 4 Knights and 16 Musketeers (Normal, Standard, Continents). Right now Russia controls the whole other continent and has an army about 3 times bigger than mine, so I plan to build a huge air/nuclear force and win by space.

Anyways, I love this mod, it makes the game more enjoyable, I play it without the workshop tho as in my last game the AI was spamming it everywhere and I didn't bother using it. Keep up the (very) good work, I really hope the devs will implement most of this in an official patch!

Glad to hear you're having fun with it. :goodjob:

This mod actually makes the AI more challenging as it can recover from its losses and bring reinforcements before you manage to take all its cities (especially with the higher difficulty bonuses). All in all a great improvement.

I'll also like to mirror the idea that too many completely distinct modifications should be their own mod and keep things a bit modular.

As I said, UI improvements generally won't function that way. As for the rest... I just don't like splitting it up. Floods the modbrowser too much IMO. I do, however, make sure that all my changes (xml, at least) are in their own files for both easy theft by other mods and easy removal for players.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 04, 2010, 09:16 AM
I was finally able to get some mods loaded and was wondering if Economy mod would combine properly with other mods. There is a "Better Sulieman" mod and a "less crappy buildings" mod that I like, but I don't want to load two contradictory things and make my PC explode!

What would be a good guide? Don't load two things that affect the same stats? (i.e. Don't load a mod that does a 10% building reduction and Economy mod?)

Thanks!

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 09:21 AM
I was finally able to get some mods loaded and was wondering if Economy mod would combine properly with other mods. There is a "Better Sulieman" mod and a "less crappy buildings" mod that I like, but I don't want to load two contradictory things and make my PC explode!

What would be a good guide? Don't load two things that affect the same stats? (i.e. Don't load a mod that does a 10% building reduction and Economy mod?)

Thanks!

As a rule of thumb, I'd only load one mod that reduces build costs (especially if both use SQL to do so, as mine and the Balance mod version do; They'll be multiplicative, not just additive :lol:), but otherwise it should be fine. UI additions are a bit questionable (depends on what files I've modified), but xml changes like Better Sulieman should be fine.

In fact, if I notice a mod I like I will recommend using it, rather than merging it and duplicating the code. It's only UI changes that I tend to merge or do myself, and that is due to their non-modularity.

Puer
Oct 04, 2010, 09:47 AM
UPDATE Technologies SET 'Cost' = cost*1.5 WHERE Cost > 0;

Valkrionn, why it's needed to add "WHERE Cost > 0" ?
To ignore some free tech or negative values? AFAIK there is no such in DB...

Grey Fox
Oct 04, 2010, 09:48 AM
Great People are -1 I believe.

Puer
Oct 04, 2010, 09:50 AM
Great People are -1 I believe.

Yes but Great People are in units table :)

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 09:55 AM
Valkrionn, why it's needed to add "WHERE Cost > 0" ?
To ignore some free tech or negative values? AFAIK there is no such in DB...

To be safe, is all. The initial reason was for units (Without that where, I was able to build GPs.... Fun, but certainly not what I intended. :p), yes, but I applied it to them all just to be sure I'm compatible with other mods.

Say someone adds a special new tech that you can't research; Maybe only certain civs start with it, or you earn it by completing certain actions, etc. Without that where, that mod would not function correctly with mine as the tech would be researchable by anyone, at a cost of 1 science.

Hope that makes sense. :goodjob:

Quetz
Oct 04, 2010, 10:04 AM
Any chance of merging this? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=387430

Mainly for the display of city-state allegiences... Though if lua mods can run together without problems, I guess it's not necessary (can they?)

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 10:12 AM
Any chance of merging this? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=387430

Mainly for the display of city-state allegiences... Though if lua mods can run together without problems, I guess it's not necessary (can they?)

Not too likely; Not sure if I want those changes. I could probably be talked into the City-State part, and the shift-mouseover to show city tiles. The rest I'm not too interested in.

And no, that mod will not work with this one, as both modify the same file (PlotHelpText, which formats the plot mouseover).

Rather, it won't work with v2 which should be ready soon.

Quetz
Oct 04, 2010, 10:18 AM
Display of how long till a starving city falls, city state allegiance display.. what's not to like?

Oh well :(

Puer
Oct 04, 2010, 10:31 AM
That's a beauty of modding - you can always start your own mod or tweak someones mod :)
Valkrionn, will be waiting your Economy Mod v2 - i like the way you are thinking..

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 10:48 AM
Display of how long till a starving city falls, city state allegiance display.. what's not to like?

Oh well :(

The starving display to me is utterly unnecessary and crowds the UI. You can already see your food bar; When that hits 0, you starve. Not hard, and doesn't warrant it's own display in the bar IMO.

The rest is marginal. I could take it or leave it. :p

That's a beauty of modding - you can always start your own mod or tweak someones mod :)
Valkrionn, will be waiting your Economy Mod v2 - i like the way you are thinking..

Exactly. ;)

All that's left for v2 is the bonus research buildings (and possibly remerging the Build Queue mod, with the tweaks I've already made of course [Purchasing doesn't hurt anything, functionality mirrors the Civ4 queue, queue is always on, checkbox is hidden, production list only expands if more than one item is in the queue (meaning those who ignore it and just select production each time have absolutely no change from default behavior)]).

XplorR
Oct 04, 2010, 11:10 AM
In fact, if I notice a mod I like I will recommend using it, rather than merging it and duplicating the code. It's only UI changes that I tend to merge or do myself, and that is due to their non-modularity.

Thank you in advance for any mods you may recommend, and thanks for the wonderful mod.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 04, 2010, 11:55 AM
I might have lost it in the shuffle, but are there plans to make Great Scientists (and research agreements) give a set number of research points instead of just a free tech? 1000 seems like a strong enough number for the investment and it makes even later game Academies more appealing.

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 12:05 PM
Not sure. Doubtful, honestly, as I have plans to improve GP improvements rather than nerf their abilities.

rikkia
Oct 04, 2010, 02:25 PM
Been playing with Economy mod and loving it thanks for your work Valkrionn.

Not had much exp with later ages as I always get bored early/mid game with my steamrolling to victory or blatant AI cheats.

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 02:29 PM
Been playing with Economy mod and loving it thanks for your work Valkrionn.

Not had much exp with later ages as I always get bored early/mid game with my steamrolling to victory or blatant AI cheats.

Glad to hear you're liking it. ;)



Sorry for the lack of a release people, calculus work getting in the way. Will be done tonight (at which point I will have to start studying for a cinema test), so I'll take some time then to finish the resource buildings.

Here are the basic ideas:


Wheat

Silo - Requires granary? Stores food

Cow

Leatherworker - Units built in city gain defensive promotion (Obsoletes), grants happy (leather usage)

Sheep

Textile Mill - flat commerce boost

Deer

Hunting Lodge - +production (and food?) from forests around the city

Banana

Plantation - +commerce and production, unhappiness, extra unhappiness with Equal Rights

Fish

Fishmonger - +food for farms (offal)

Need a better name. Anyone have a good name for an ancient fish processing plant? Won't pop into my head. Building represents the offal (guts) of the fish being collected and used as fertilizer, rather than discarded.

Ekmek
Oct 04, 2010, 02:40 PM
I lie it.

one thing i was thinking is that this game totally lacks coastal tile improvements. I'd like to see commercial fleet as a TI or a "natural port" as resource that adds gold to the water tile.

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 02:46 PM
I lie it.

one thing i was thinking is that this game totally lacks coastal tile improvements. I'd like to see commercial fleet as a TI or a "natural port" as resource that adds gold to the water tile.

I agree. I'd like to add one or two, as well as some melee vessels (I'm sorry, but only ranged combat for ships is not cutting it. Too much of a pain to guard your embarked units). Issue with the improvement is art, though.

rikkia
Oct 04, 2010, 03:01 PM
Wheat

Silo - Requires granary? Stores food

Cow

Leatherworker - Units built in city gain defensive promotion (Obsoletes), grants happy (leather usage)

Sheep

Textile Mill - flat commerce boost

Deer

Hunting Lodge - +production (and food?) from forests around the city

Banana

Plantation - +commerce and production, unhappiness, extra unhappiness with Equal Rights

Fish

Fishmonger - +food for farms (offal)

Need a better name. Anyone have a good name for an ancient fish processing plant? Won't pop into my head. Building represents the offal (guts) of the fish being collected and used as fertilizer, rather than discarded.




Wheat seems redundant a granary is by definition a silo. Could you possibly split it into 2 shorter build time buildings (both together possibly = to the Silo build time?) to make choice and specialization more important Eg...

Bakery +food/Stores Food
and/or (depending on wheat supplies)
Brewery +Happiness -Production due to drunkards

Fishery all I can think of is a Smokie but that's more of a preservative building than a processing one :(

teejing
Oct 04, 2010, 03:17 PM
I am not sure if you are interested in this, but as the game goes on, especially on higher maps/difficulty , every tile of the goddamn map is getting occupied by a unit. It also seems the ai goes crazy trying to move at all making for longer turn-loading-times.

So my question is: Is it possible to increase the cost and power of the military units as they become more modern?

I have no idea if to increase is gradually or exponential, but i would like to see it drasticc, like +100% cost/power per age ( there are 7, so future tech units would cost 700% more...)

Ofc i can see the huge balance challenge ( sounds more optimistic than problems ^^) between units and units and cities.
Additionally it could be seen as weird/wrong when a unit costs so much, also upgrade costs...

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 03:25 PM
Wheat seems redundant a granary is by definition a silo. Could you possibly split it into 2 shorter build time buildings (both together possibly = to the Silo build time?) to make choice and specialization more important Eg...

Bakery +food/Stores Food
and/or (depending on wheat supplies)
Brewery +Happiness -Production due to drunkards

Fishery all I can think of is a Smokie but that's more of a preservative building than a processing one :(

Yes, but the granary simply adds food, not food storage (as it did in civ4). :p

On the other hand, your idea is quite interesting... I like it. Most bonus resources have 2-3 instances on a plot (like strategic resources), though fish will likely only have one (that's a strong bonus, there.... ), so a single source of wheat could grant both buildings to the same city. Or one to two or three different cities. So wheat having multiple uses is quite interesting, and I think I'll go with it. :goodjob:

And yeah, I can think of several MODERN names for the fishing building, but no ancient ones, which I'd prefer in this case. :crazyeye:

I am not sure if you are interested in this, but as the game goes on, especially on higher maps/difficulty , every tile of the goddamn map is getting occupied by a unit. It also seems the ai goes crazy trying to move at all making for longer turn-loading-times.

So my question is: Is it possible to increase the cost and power of the military units as they become more modern?

I have no idea if to increase is gradually or exponential, but i would like to see it drasticc, like +100% cost/power per age ( there are 7, so future tech units would cost 700% more...)

Ofc i can see the huge balance challenge ( sounds more optimistic than problems ^^) between units and units and cities.
Additionally it could be seen as weird/wrong when a unit costs so much, also upgrade costs...

That would be an absolutely huge balance change. May be good, may be bad, but out of the scope of this mod; I'd like some of these changes to be picked up by the devs (and am recommending them to them), and a wholesale revision of that nature is out of the scope of what they would do.

MilkmanDan
Oct 04, 2010, 03:31 PM
if you're going to do a textile mill, seems should include cotton and silk.

definitely need to make coast more useful, extra food/gold to reflect the fact that 80-90% have lived near/on the coast for all (almost?) of civilized history.

would be cool if melee for ships was like an attempt at a boarding action (ramming for trireme) with the possibility of capture, either way.

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 04:14 PM
Cotton and Silk already provide happiness; Fitting as it would be, I have no intention of including them. They are valuable as is.

Ekmek
Oct 04, 2010, 05:22 PM
any thoughts on nerfing marble. just getting gives you a wonder boost civ wide probably should on be in the city with it in the radius.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 04, 2010, 06:46 PM
+78% wonder production as Egypt is sick, yo!

heinous_hat
Oct 04, 2010, 09:15 PM
Glad to hear you're liking it. ;)


Fishmonger - +food for farms (offal)

Need a better name. Anyone have a good name for an ancient fish processing plant? Won't pop into my head. Building represents the offal (guts) of the fish being collected and used as fertilizer, rather than discarded.



Thanks :) This has had me stumped for hours. I'm not sure there was an equivalent specific industry for fish fertilizer in the ancient world. I believe they just used animal manure, sewage etc. However, the Latin for 'keeper of fish ponds' (which is who might do such processing) is piscīnārius. A Cētārius is a fishmonger. Cētārium? Piscīnārium? (not sure that second one is legitimate). Anything ring a bell?

If you're talking about the Roman era specifically, the biggest and most profitable use for fish entrails, so it seems, was in making garum (fish paste/sauce) for the upper class. Definitely a luxury good. Don't know about the Greeks. The Egyptians fished on a much smaller scale, so it would seem unlikely they used fish bi-products for crops. I see some references to the Incans doing so though.

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 09:24 PM
Thanks :) This has had me stumped for hours. I'm not sure there was an equivalent specific industry for fish fertilizer in the ancient world. I believe they just used animal manure, sewage etc. However, the Latin for 'keeper of fish ponds' (which is who might do such processing) is piscīnārius. A Cētārius is a fishmonger. Cētārium? Piscīnārium? (not sure that second one is legitimate). Anything ring a bell?

If you're talking about the Roman era specifically, the biggest and most profitable use for fish entrails, so it seems, was in making garum (fish paste/sauce) for the upper class. Definitely a luxury good. Don't know about the Greeks. The Egyptians fished on a much smaller scale, so it would seem unlikely they used fish bi-products for crops. I see some references to the Incans doing so though.

Yeah, it was really a generic use for offal of all kinds, but many coastal populations made use of it. Common, if just in small amounts. I just like the effect, helps make fish strong (which it needs to be, with coastal tiles being underpar).

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 09:25 PM
any thoughts on nerfing marble. just getting gives you a wonder boost civ wide probably should on be in the city with it in the radius.

+78% wonder production as Egypt is sick, yo!

Neglected to answer these.

I'm not sure yet, I haven't had time to look at it. It's on my list though.

Ekmek
Oct 04, 2010, 09:39 PM
Thanks :) This has had me stumped for hours. I'm not sure there was an equivalent specific industry for fish fertilizer in the ancient world. I believe they just used animal manure, sewage etc. However, the Latin for 'keeper of fish ponds' (which is who might do such processing) is piscīnārius. A Cētārius is a fishmonger. Cētārium? Piscīnārium? (not sure that second one is legitimate). Anything ring a bell?

If you're talking about the Roman era specifically, the biggest and most profitable use for fish entrails, so it seems, was in making garum (fish paste/sauce) for the upper class. Definitely a luxury good. Don't know about the Greeks. The Egyptians fished on a much smaller scale, so it would seem unlikely they used fish bi-products for crops. I see some references to the Incans doing so though.

"fish market" or "seafood market" doesn't work?


On another note I had this thought on city specialization. maybe we should add a couple of buildings that specialize a river valley city or a coastal city or a mountain city. Either add some more special improvements that play to those traits (and maybe even get rid of some buildings). like i think the watermill should add production but maybe the coastal city gets more gold (basically make the lighthouse more like the colossus)_ and the hill city gets more defenses. dunno just a thought. probably should of recommended a long, long time ago.

heinous_hat
Oct 04, 2010, 10:05 PM
"fish market" or "seafood market" doesn't work?


I thought he was looking for an archaic term for a fish processing facility (effect on crop yields) and probably went overboard ;)




Plantation - +commerce and production, unhappiness, extra unhappiness with Equal Rights


Does this go for all plantations or just bananas? Either way. I much like that you're working in negative traits as these are missed. The game is way too bonus focused presently. The sacrifices you make are implicit to whatever you choose not to pursue..

Valkrionn
Oct 04, 2010, 10:18 PM
"fish market" or "seafood market" doesn't work?


On another note I had this thought on city specialization. maybe we should add a couple of buildings that specialize a river valley city or a coastal city or a mountain city. Either add some more special improvements that play to those traits (and maybe even get rid of some buildings). like i think the watermill should add production but maybe the coastal city gets more gold (basically make the lighthouse more like the colossus)_ and the hill city gets more defenses. dunno just a thought. probably should of recommended a long, long time ago.

Yeah, I was looking specifically for the processing facility, as the building will grant bonuses to farms.

More specialized buildings would be a good thing IMO.

I thought he was looking for an archaic term for a fish processing facility (effect on crop yields) and probably went overboard ;)




Does this go for all plantations or just bananas? Either way. I much like that you're working in negative traits as these are missed. The game is way too bonus focused presently. The sacrifices you make are implicit to whatever you choose not to pursue..

Not really, better than I was able to do. :goodjob:

And no, that's for a new building (and the name will likely change), only able to build it if you have bananas.

tokala
Oct 04, 2010, 11:06 PM
any thoughts on nerfing marble. just getting gives you a wonder boost civ wide probably should on be in the city with it in the radius.

Marble is giving the bonus only to the city that have it in its "BFC". Don't know what happens if multiple cities have access to a quarry, but it is definately not civwide.

kaltorak
Oct 05, 2010, 12:24 AM
Yesterday I started a game with this mod, and I must say it's very good.
-The game pace is much more fun.
-The improved resources make them really nice to get, instead of just meh.
-The buildings too, make you want to build them, not like before.

Here are some observations:

- 20% faster units is far too OP for just unlocking honor. I would lower it to 10% or put it at the bottom of the tree.
- Between the better yields and the reduction in building maintentance, I'm swimming in gold. I would lower the income or increase the maintenance on some buildings. Or maybe of units.
- Teching seems still pretty fast in my game. Is it really increased by 50%? Doesn't look that much. Maybe the better yields makes it faster.
- In vanilla it was already too easy to do early warfare to win the game (easier than later). Now with the fast unit production, before and even more after unlocking honor, anhilating the AIs at early warfare is even easier. I can't tell you what, but it would be nice to compensate the cheaper units with something that helps defense. At least early game.


Thanks for your work, the game looks much more fun now.

Evalis
Oct 05, 2010, 02:42 AM
Someone put out a mod that increased the hp and healing rate of cities. Perhaps you could try running that in conjunction with this mod. Reduced cost on walls with a maintenance of zero might help too (since early game units are actually cheaper).

kaltorak
Oct 05, 2010, 03:00 AM
Reduced cost on walls with a maintenance of zero might help too (since early game units are actually cheaper).

The problem is, the AI should be changed too to know that units are much faster now and it has to build walls. It's always the issue with balance changes, the AI has to be changed to take advantage of the new stuff. But the AI is anyway horrible on vanilla, so it's not that big issue.

A question, when we get new versions of this mod, do we have to download a new mod or can it be patched?

btw I can't see the new luxury resource window.

Shambles
Oct 05, 2010, 08:36 AM
At what gamespeed is this mod supposed to be played? Cause i've started an epic game and now i just entered the medival age...at 200 BC :rolleyes:

Puer
Oct 05, 2010, 08:53 AM
At what gamespeed is this mod supposed to be played? Cause i've started an epic game and now i just entered the medival age...at 200 BC :rolleyes:

Did you had fun?`:king:
I'm playing also with epic speed & I love it. Actually I tweaked tech cost points so the game is really slow and challenge - warrior power :)

kaltorak
Oct 05, 2010, 09:07 AM
I played it at standard and techs still seemed too fast. Probably increasing their cost is countered by increasing resource yields

db0
Oct 05, 2010, 09:10 AM
I played it at standard and techs still seemed too fast. Probably increasing their cost is countered by increasing resource yields

Tech is primarily population-related and this mod just doesn't increase your food input anywhere close to making up for th 50% higher cost in tech. It does increase how quickly you can build the science buildings of course, but until the medieval era, you have very little of those.

Valkrionn
Oct 05, 2010, 10:33 AM
Marble is giving the bonus only to the city that have it in its "BFC". Don't know what happens if multiple cities have access to a quarry, but it is definately not civwide.

If so, I'll leave it.

Yesterday I started a game with this mod, and I must say it's very good.
-The game pace is much more fun.
-The improved resources make them really nice to get, instead of just meh.
-The buildings too, make you want to build them, not like before.

Here are some observations:

- 20% faster units is far too OP for just unlocking honor. I would lower it to 10% or put it at the bottom of the tree.
- Between the better yields and the reduction in building maintentance, I'm swimming in gold. I would lower the income or increase the maintenance on some buildings. Or maybe of units.
- Teching seems still pretty fast in my game. Is it really increased by 50%? Doesn't look that much. Maybe the better yields makes it faster.
- In vanilla it was already too easy to do early warfare to win the game (easier than later). Now with the fast unit production, before and even more after unlocking honor, anhilating the AIs at early warfare is even easier. I can't tell you what, but it would be nice to compensate the cheaper units with something that helps defense. At least early game.


Thanks for your work, the game looks much more fun now.

Glad to see you're enjoying. :goodjob: Now for your points...


Whut? You must be running another mod with this, as Honor does not increase build speed. AFAIK, no policy affects unit build speed directly.
What better yields? The only thing I changed was bonus resource yields, by 2 at most. Also, what building maintenance reduction? Again, not something I did at all; Check what mods you have activated. :p
It is increased by 50%, yes.
Play with Afforess's ActiveCityDefense mod. He's made pretty much exactly the changes I would have. ;)


The problem is, the AI should be changed too to know that units are much faster now and it has to build walls. It's always the issue with balance changes, the AI has to be changed to take advantage of the new stuff. But the AI is anyway horrible on vanilla, so it's not that big issue.

A question, when we get new versions of this mod, do we have to download a new mod or can it be patched?

btw I can't see the new luxury resource window.

It will likely be a new download, the way the modbrowser is set up.

New luxury resource window? If you mean the one in the infopane, that's in the unreleased version. Otherwise, it's a mouseover in the top bar, but that one will be gone in v2.

At what gamespeed is this mod supposed to be played? Cause i've started an epic game and now i just entered the medival age...at 200 BC :rolleyes:

I actually play epic as well. I don't advance eras as fast as you did, though... Guessing you focused on one specific branch? :p

I played it at standard and techs still seemed too fast. Probably increasing their cost is countered by increasing resource yields

Not really. Science is purely from population. The only resource that would help is Wheat.

Tech is primarily population-related and this mod just doesn't increase your food input anywhere close to making up for th 50% higher cost in tech. It does increase how quickly you can build the science buildings of course, but until the medieval era, you have very little of those.

Exactly.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 05, 2010, 12:02 PM
Re: 200 BC Medieval

Dimes to dollars it was a great scientist. I know you aren't fond of altering their ability to get a free tech, Val, but it's far too strong. 50% of current tech is more than acceptable IMHO and nowhere near as overpowered. Same for research agreements.

As for population increases I think the maritime fix was needed.

Beatrix202
Oct 05, 2010, 01:30 PM
Re: 200 BC Medieval

Dimes to dollars it was a great scientist. I know you aren't fond of altering their ability to get a free tech, Val, but it's far too strong. 50% of current tech is more than acceptable IMHO and nowhere near as overpowered. Same for research agreements.

As for population increases I think the maritime fix was needed.

Agreed. My only Gripe with this mod is with the +50% tech cost the Great Scientist bulb value is through the roof. The only way I can see a Scientist used for anything else is Babylon rushing Writing and dropping an academy. I think GPP needs a overhaul in general but that's alot of work and things should be done 1 step at a time.

On a side note your mod is great. It brings more life to the game and really spices it up. I look forward to this mod update as much as a official patch :)

ArgentumStudios
Oct 05, 2010, 02:46 PM
Okay, going to go with option2. ;)

Any opinion on the tech popup?

Also, I got fed up with trying to get the damn tabs to work last night, decided to go with an infopane, and then just as I settle down to actually code the thing, someone else released a working version. :lol: As I've modified the TopPanel.lua file, the two mods will not work together separately... But he's given general permission for people to merge it, so this will be the resource pane used. Saves me a lot of time, for sure. :goodjob:

Can check it out here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9709601#post9709601

I'm glad my little mod suits your needs. Feel free to give any feedback on general improvements that you'd like to see. :) Great work so far!

Shiggs713
Oct 05, 2010, 03:19 PM
wow nice mod, looks great :)

I did a few little game speed changes for my Shiggs Earth mod, and pretty quickly had people asking me how to disable my changes so they could use yours :lol: pretty similar though, I only raised tech cost 33% and made unit and building creation 33% faster. Anyhow great looking mod, I will try it out soon.

Shambles
Oct 05, 2010, 05:13 PM
I actually play epic as well. I don't advance eras as fast as you did, though... Guessing you focused on one specific branch? :p


Not rly, no ;) But to be fair i played Babylon and built science buildings/wonders asap. Then again, i also wiped out two enemies till then (i'm playin on prince though, which is far too easy... :) )
btw: I always use great scientist for building an academy...

Feyd Rautha
Oct 05, 2010, 07:05 PM
How hard would it be to mod out the free tech until someone figures out a fix for the OP scientists? Would I be able to use Kael's guide to gump my way through it?

Thalassicus
Oct 05, 2010, 07:11 PM
No, roads are going back to default maintenance. I don't have a problem with them, I was just testing something that wasn't working for someone else.

You or the person you were helping have probably tried this already, but if not...

You could experiment with giving a free, invisible policy with the RouteGoldMaintenanceMod attribute altered. It would avoid the integer division issue by doing it after the multiplication by # roads, instead of before.

Valkrionn
Oct 05, 2010, 07:16 PM
How hard would it be to mod out the free tech until someone figures out a fix for the OP scientists? Would I be able to use Kael's guide to gump my way through it?

No idea, as I don't know how the abilities are set up yet. I haven't looked.

You or the person you were helping have probably tried this already, but if not...

Something I thought about is you could experiment with giving a free, invisible policy with the RouteGoldMaintenanceMod attribute. It would avoid the integer division issue by doing it after the multiplication by # roads, instead of before.

Well, if it was something I wanted I'd just add it to agriculture (free tech for everyone, afterall), but it's not a change I want. Was just testing it. ;)

Ekmek
Oct 05, 2010, 11:02 PM
I think we should add an engineer slot to the monument. it takes an engineer to build one, gets production in game for flatland cities, and if someone pops a great engineer it could lead to some real wonder races.

Also, I still dislke the workshop. maybe if you made pastures like farms but only can build on plains and grasslands you could have them add 1 hammer (simulating production from large animal labor). Or change the worthless tradepost to give +1 hammer inistead of gold and make that the workshop or call it the village. I'm thinking there are options other than adding a new TI.

Valkrionn
Oct 05, 2010, 11:08 PM
I think we should add an engineer slot to the monument. it takes an engineer to build one, gets production in game for flatland cities, and if someone pops a great engineer it could lead to some real wonder races.

Also, I still dislke the workshop. maybe if you made pastures like farms but only can build on plains and grasslands you could have them add 1 hammer (simulating production from large animal labor). Or change the worthless tradepost to give +1 hammer inistead of gold and make that the workshop or call it the village. I'm thinking there are options other than adding a new TI.

I may do the pasture thing. I've also been considering making the trading post upgrade; Could easily have it gain hammers as well as commerce. Either solution would allow me to remove the workshop.

While you're here: I know you're far better at art than I am. :lol: Any chance I could talk you into possibly making icons for the resource buildings I'm adding? They are:

Brewery
Bakery
Leatherworker
Textile Mill
Hunting Lodge
Plantation
Fishmonger (close enough)


Edit: Also, like the monument idea. ;)

kaltorak
Oct 06, 2010, 12:41 AM
You were right, the problems I listed on the last page were coming from another mod. I started new with only this mod active and it's more balanced.

Grey Fox
Oct 06, 2010, 06:53 AM
Playing with the mod now, gonna write down my opinions of the changes as I go, maybe add stuff I want to see.


The new interface for the build queue is forcing me an extra click EVERY time I add a new construction item. The old system only forced me extra clicks when I used the queue. ("City is ready for a new construction"- notification brings up the screen, then it doesn't close when I pick an item, I have to click the back button).
You realize there is a building called 'Workshop' as well right?
Pedia is very bad at showing how much a tile with a resource is improved by an improvement. It's so bad that it's not shown at all in fact.
For some reason when I purchased a warrior it added a warrior to the top of the build queue as well... o.O - wasted one turn on that instead of the wonder I was building. (Similar thing happened when I purchased a structure, the build queue disappeared)
Dunno if this is because of your mod or because I deleted my config.ini or cause of mods in general, but I am not getting any auto-saves.
Road maintenance has been removed? If so, you should probably change what the Trade Unions policy does...

Some ideas


Social Policy tweaks

Liberty>Collective Rule - Is boring, bring it up to 1 population added per city. Find other ways to limit how powerful this makes city spamming.
Make it a bit easier to get Social Policies? I love getting them, I'd just like them to come a bit more often. Just don't make it too easy to get cultural victory.
Maybe a bonus for finishing a social policy branch, for one thing it would give an incentive to finish one besides going for culture win

A little bit less resources per strategic resource, I find that it's a bit too easy to get a large number of resources, more than you are able to field in units usually.
Not sure I like that a few wonders go obsolete, I don't really see any need for that. Or is the Colossus considered so strong it needs to go obsolete?
Maybe cities could come with an innate +1 culture (is it possible to make it only local?, though the already +33% policy cost per city might be enough offset)

Well, that's it for now.

Derekhan2
Oct 06, 2010, 07:18 AM
Hi, don't know if it was mentionned before (though I read a lot of posts in this thread), but there is one thing I dislike about your mod, which apart from this I find great - and it's the fact that when you've built something in a city, there is no longer a reminder of what it is ! so unless you keep an eye on each & every city in your empire in order to know what they are about to build and in how much time, then all U know is that something has been built up in a city, but what was is ?? It's really a shame cause I love the way game is sped up in terms of production & slowed down in terms of science - which was I think a major drawback of the vanilla game - but this UI thing is really poisoning the experience.
I'm surprised no-one seemed to mention this in threads, so maybe it's because of another activated mod - which would seem very strange to me as the only 2 other mods that I activated are "maps" mods (Legendary Earth Mod & Yet Another Huge Earth Map mod).

kaltorak
Oct 06, 2010, 07:29 AM
I agree with the 2 posters above. I like the mod, but I don't like the change to open the queue by default. Or at least not how it is implemented. For example if I click something and I want to change it, I have to close the window, remove that from the queue, open teh window again, and add what I want.
If we could remove items from the queue with a rightclick, it would be better. From the queue where we add things, not from where we just see the queue.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 06, 2010, 08:04 AM
I don't see the queue problems from vanilla. You can move stuff up and down and you can hit the X to delete it. I like the ideas in this mod, but I'd like to have an option to unload the queue changes altogether.

Also, I think reducing policy costs could be done if you counterbalance it with requiring SIX policy trees to be complete instead of five.

Valkrionn
Oct 06, 2010, 08:47 AM
You were right, the problems I listed on the last page were coming from another mod. I started new with only this mod active and it's more balanced.

I thought so. :goodjob:

Playing with the mod now, gonna write down my opinions of the changes as I go, maybe add stuff I want to see.


The new interface for the build queue is forcing me an extra click EVERY time I add a new construction item. The old system only forced me extra clicks when I used the queue. ("City is ready for a new construction"- notification brings up the screen, then it doesn't close when I pick an item, I have to click the back button).
You realize there is a building called 'Workshop' as well right?
Pedia is very bad at showing how much a tile with a resource is improved by an improvement. It's so bad that it's not shown at all in fact.
For some reason when I purchased a warrior it added a warrior to the top of the build queue as well... o.O - wasted one turn on that instead of the wonder I was building. (Similar thing happened when I purchased a structure, the build queue disappeared)
Dunno if this is because of your mod or because I deleted my config.ini or cause of mods in general, but I am not getting any auto-saves.
Road maintenance has been removed? If so, you should probably change what the Trade Unions policy does...





Been fixed in v2, as I've said several times. :p The new mechanic should look much like that of Civ4:

Always on, build list only expands if more than one item is in it (as in, only takes up more space on the city screen if you actually queue something)
A standard mouse-click ignores the queue, functions as if it was off, and closes the build menu.
A shift-click adds the item to the back of the queue.
A ctrl-click adds the item to the front of the queue.
The build popup does not allow queueing.

Very aware of that fact, yes. ATM, I'm considering removing the improvement. When it was added, I was considering removing the building instead. :p
I know. Something that needs to be done... At the least, we could have it in the improvement page, displayed in the resource mouseover? As in, mouse over a resource in the "Can be built on" section.
Known, and fixed in v2. Was a logic error in the original author's code.
I know I am getting autosaves, so I'd think that would be on your end.
Accidental inclusion. Tested something for someone, neglected to remove it, will be gone in v2.



Some ideas


Social Policy tweaks

Liberty>Collective Rule - Is boring, bring it up to 1 population added per city. Find other ways to limit how powerful this makes city spamming.
Make it a bit easier to get Social Policies? I love getting them, I'd just like them to come a bit more often. Just don't make it too easy to get cultural victory.
Maybe a bonus for finishing a social policy branch, for one thing it would give an incentive to finish one besides going for culture win


A little bit less resources per strategic resource, I find that it's a bit too easy to get a large number of resources, more than you are able to field in units usually.
Not sure I like that a few wonders go obsolete, I don't really see any need for that. Or is the Colossus considered so strong it needs to go obsolete?
Maybe cities could come with an innate +1 culture (is it possible to make it only local?, though the already +33% policy cost per city might be enough offset)

Well, that's it for now.


Social Policies:

I rather agree.
Same, maybe increase the amount you need for cultural victory?
Would have to see how to do that. Maybe a free policy requiring all the others in the tree would work...

Not sure about that one, particularly for the later ones where you have buildings for them as well.
I don't like that either, personally. Wonders should remain useful.
Not sure about that.


Hi, don't know if it was mentionned before (though I read a lot of posts in this thread), but there is one thing I dislike about your mod, which apart from this I find great - and it's the fact that when you've built something in a city, there is no longer a reminder of what it is ! so unless you keep an eye on each & every city in your empire in order to know what they are about to build and in how much time, then all U know is that something has been built up in a city, but what was is ?? It's really a shame cause I love the way game is sped up in terms of production & slowed down in terms of science - which was I think a major drawback of the vanilla game - but this UI thing is really poisoning the experience.
I'm surprised no-one seemed to mention this in threads, so maybe it's because of another activated mod - which would seem very strange to me as the only 2 other mods that I activated are "maps" mods (Legendary Earth Mod & Yet Another Huge Earth Map mod).

I don't know of anything I'd done that would change that behavior. I'll check it out though.

I agree with the 2 posters above. I like the mod, but I don't like the change to open the queue by default. Or at least not how it is implemented. For example if I click something and I want to change it, I have to close the window, remove that from the queue, open teh window again, and add what I want.
If we could remove items from the queue with a rightclick, it would be better. From the queue where we add things, not from where we just see the queue.

The queue has been changed, like I said. ;)

I'll try to add a rightclick to remove items, but may not be able to.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 06, 2010, 09:10 AM
RE: More policies

One thing you could do is have every nation start with a free policy choice. Basically, it would be the principles upon which the society was founded. I would also remove the ability to skip a policy choice and make it a required choice. That would eliminate some of the more exploitative strategies where people are holding onto policy choices until the Medieval era in order to immediately cap out the patronage tree.

I'd also say you could lower the costs for later policies but require six paths for Utopia.

RE: Queue

Could you use the same functionality code to just add the "delete"/X button to each item so you can click that instead to delete items?

Grey Fox
Oct 06, 2010, 09:32 AM
Been fixed in v2, as I've said several times. :p

Yeah I am not gonna read 220 posts when I download a mod :P.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 06, 2010, 09:37 AM
Did he not edit the original? *checks* Oh... I guess not.

Valkrionn
Oct 06, 2010, 10:05 AM
RE: More policies

One thing you could do is have every nation start with a free policy choice. Basically, it would be the principles upon which the society was founded. I would also remove the ability to skip a policy choice and make it a required choice. That would eliminate some of the more exploitative strategies where people are holding onto policy choices until the Medieval era in order to immediately cap out the patronage tree.

I'd also say you could lower the costs for later policies but require six paths for Utopia.

RE: Queue

Could you use the same functionality code to just add the "delete"/X button to each item so you can click that instead to delete items?

Doubtful that I'd have people start with one; Get one fast enough as is when it starts. I also don't really like the idea of forcing people to use it; Yes, it could be considered an exploit. Or it could be considered a strategy, one which costs the use of early policies in return for later use of others. ;)

Lowered costs but six paths, on the other hand, could happen; I've considered it. Will HAVE to happen with a different mod I have planned (which will be compatible but not included with this one).

On the queue: Yes, that's what I'm planning to look at. Only said "I don't know" because I haven't checked yet. ;)

Yeah I am not gonna read 220 posts when I download a mod :P.

I wouldn't expect you to. But you've been in #erebus while I was talking about fixing it. And even replied to it. :lol:

Did he not edit the original? *checks* Oh... I guess not.

Not until I release, no.

Marquoz
Oct 06, 2010, 10:47 AM
Please release soon, Valk! I can't wait for your changes. Well, I suppose I can, but I don't want to.

Valkrionn
Oct 06, 2010, 11:36 AM
Please release soon, Valk! I can't wait for your changes. Well, I suppose I can, but I don't want to.

Hopefully tonight; Got floored by a bad cold (:):):):) Florida. Went from 70 to 40 in one day?!?) and have a test. After today though I have no class till Monday, so will be working on it tomorrow.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 06, 2010, 11:48 AM
I'm generally tech-savvy, but I have no mind for code. Thank you for your hard work on this and if you need a tester I'm more than willing (although I'm not that strong of a player).

Stalker0
Oct 06, 2010, 05:54 PM
Lowered costs but six paths, on the other hand, could happen; I've considered it..

Another option is to increase the cost of the utopia project. That gives you a lot more granular control than adding a 6th path.

darkedone02
Oct 07, 2010, 12:58 AM
has an update released? i wonder if mod browser actually allow the mod to auto-update mods. If so, I can't tell if the mod has recently updated.

PibbZ
Oct 07, 2010, 05:34 AM
I've been planning my own mod and started fiddeling around with some numbers (increased wealth efficiency, improved engineer specialist production and stuff like that). Good to see you decided to settle with the same numbers, my ideas cant be "too far off" when it comes to balance then :D
Great job!

TheDisco
Oct 07, 2010, 09:40 AM
I have a request as I like your mad mod skills and you seem to be one of the early and active modders here, and so I plan on using your balance changes as my base mod for now :goodjob:

My request is that when you release a new update could you also provide your suggested recommendations on:

1) Other mods to use with your mod. From what I gather so far your mod won't work with many of the other "balance" type mods which is fine since that makes sense. But I would like to perhaps add ActiveCityDefense mod as well as Emigration mod plus maybe some others, but I'd really like your opinion on what mods you think would fit well and won't have any conflicts

2) What game speed, size, and # civs/city-states are what you test with, as I want to ensure I'm not messing up the intended balance by playing an untested size/speed

Thanks and I can't wait unitl the cohesive modpacks start to appear! There are a lot of great modders out there like yourself (and MAJOR kudos to the RoM guys as well). :goodjob::goodjob:

Valkrionn
Oct 07, 2010, 10:52 AM
has an update released? i wonder if mod browser actually allow the mod to auto-update mods. If so, I can't tell if the mod has recently updated.

Not just yet... Sick as a dog atm. I'm going to try and get it out today.

I've been planning my own mod and started fiddeling around with some numbers (increased wealth efficiency, improved engineer specialist production and stuff like that). Good to see you decided to settle with the same numbers, my ideas cant be "too far off" when it comes to balance then :D
Great job!

:goodjob:

I have a request as I like your mad mod skills and you seem to be one of the early and active modders here, and so I plan on using your balance changes as my base mod for now :goodjob:

My request is that when you release a new update could you also provide your suggested recommendations on:

1) Other mods to use with your mod. From what I gather so far your mod won't work with many of the other "balance" type mods which is fine since that makes sense. But I would like to perhaps add ActiveCityDefense mod as well as Emigration mod plus maybe some others, but I'd really like your opinion on what mods you think would fit well and won't have any conflicts

2) What game speed, size, and # civs/city-states are what you test with, as I want to ensure I'm not messing up the intended balance by playing an untested size/speed

Thanks and I can't wait unitl the cohesive modpacks start to appear! There are a lot of great modders out there like yourself (and MAJOR kudos to the RoM guys as well). :goodjob::goodjob:

Sure, can answer now actually. ;)


I am definitely planning on doing so. The three I've noticed so far:

ActiveCityDefense
Emigration
TreeGrowth

I test with Normal, Duel, standard numbers, but that's just to make sure things are working in the game. :p When I actually play, I'm on Marathon, Huge, 4 extra civs on Terra. Really, any settings should work.

As soon as we get the DLL source, myself and the rest of the RifE team will be starting on Eden, a fantasy modpack (which will be entirely different from FfH; Breaking away for our own setting). ;)

al-rashid
Oct 07, 2010, 11:18 AM
just wondering what are the recommended settings for this mod, atm im on standard pace prince level huge map 20 civs and 25 civ states, research seems to be possibly easier/quicker than vanilla once you get going 70 turns in or so.

in general just finding the game really easy, and im not interested in playing higher difficulty modes really as ive heard it just gives the ai bonuses, i prefer to keep it a fairer playing field. im making about 80gpt researching 90 a turn no longer need to pump units out as already have tons, i no longer produce things out of necessity i could probably build everything available in my 9-10 cities, btw i havent taken over anywhere just expanded slowly with setlers got 2 city states.

on demographics im 1st on everything except approval playing as america btw. does this mod just give the player these changes or are they in effect for the ai as well?

Valkrionn
Oct 07, 2010, 12:20 PM
just wondering what are the recommended settings for this mod, atm im on standard pace prince level huge map 20 civs and 25 civ states, research seems to be possibly easier/quicker than vanilla once you get going 70 turns in or so.

in general just finding the game really easy, and im not interested in playing higher difficulty modes really as ive heard it just gives the ai bonuses, i prefer to keep it a fairer playing field. im making about 80gpt researching 90 a turn no longer need to pump units out as already have tons, i no longer produce things out of necessity i could probably build everything available in my 9-10 cities, btw i havent taken over anywhere just expanded slowly with setlers got 2 city states.

on demographics im 1st on everything except approval playing as america btw. does this mod just give the player these changes or are they in effect for the ai as well?

Absolutely everything done for the player affects the AI as well. You shouldn't really be finding it that much easier; I didn't really touch yields, aside from those of the bonus resources which will be losing what they gained. :p

TheDisco
Oct 07, 2010, 12:24 PM
just wondering what are the recommended settings for this mod, atm im on standard pace prince level huge map 20 civs and 25 civ states, research seems to be possibly easier/quicker than vanilla once you get going 70 turns in or so.

in general just finding the game really easy, and im not interested in playing higher difficulty modes really as ive heard it just gives the ai bonuses, i prefer to keep it a fairer playing field. im making about 80gpt researching 90 a turn no longer need to pump units out as already have tons, i no longer produce things out of necessity i could probably build everything available in my 9-10 cities, btw i havent taken over anywhere just expanded slowly with setlers got 2 city states.

on demographics im 1st on everything except approval playing as america btw. does this mod just give the player these changes or are they in effect for the ai as well?

I really would consider bumping up to King at least if you are having too easy of a time. It definately gives a little boost to the AI bonuses but you can still keep ahead even without any warmongering. I agree in principle as well that I'd like to play strictly on an even playing field but the AI just isn't there yet. Hopefully a good AI mod will come out that allows this at some point...

Abremms
Oct 07, 2010, 01:24 PM
I really would consider bumping up to King at least if you are having too easy of a time. It definately gives a little boost to the AI bonuses but you can still keep ahead even without any warmongering. I agree in principle as well that I'd like to play strictly on an even playing field but the AI just isn't there yet. Hopefully a good AI mod will come out that allows this at some point...

i agree, king seems to be a bit of a sweet spot. for me anyways, I'm not gauranteed wonders, i get beat to them often enough, but i can still get them enough to be worth trying. at prince, i always out-tech the AI by at least a tier, on emperor the AI always out-techs me. king seems to stay fairly equal in tech.

it would be nice to see the AI get maybe a little heavier combat bonuses, ot just better combat AI at king tho, that is still lacking. but between this Economy Mod, the Battle AI mod, and the simplified unit maintenance mod, the AI fields a pretty large army and doesn't use it THAT poorly.

Feyd Rautha
Oct 07, 2010, 04:09 PM
Wait what... simplified unit maintenance mod? Pls link... I'm one of the unlucky ones who still cannot use the mod browser (BTW is there any update on that)?

Tarquelne
Oct 07, 2010, 06:28 PM
Yeah, it was really a generic use for offal of all kinds, but many coastal populations made use of it. Common, if just in small amounts. I just like the effect, helps make fish strong (which it needs to be, with coastal tiles being underpar).

Perhaps make the fish thing Salt Ponds and/or Brine Wells? Preservation of Fish was a really big deal. I think you could justify a pretty big bonus. Maybe even an empire-wide one via a National Wonder type thing. (Or a per-city one based on a separate Fishmonger/market building then available in each city? Could you have them give bonus food only when you've got Fish? Could Fish be treated something like a Strategic resource and allow X buildings to be built per Fish? So many questions. Maybe I'll get the game.)

Anyhoo... Then give the extra farm yield effect to the Bakery? It think that's even easier to justify.

Leatherworker vs. Hunting Lodge:

I don't know what *you* get up to with leather goods, but I think a happy bonus would be more appropriate to the Hunting Lodge than the Leatherworker. The Lodge could give the populace access to a greater variety of foods, plus the fun of hunting for the rich and the fun of poaching for the poor. Outdoor fun for all, anyway. Picking mushrooms, say: There's a food treat for one and all. Plus it doesn't always have to be about gutting something.

Leatherworkers are instrumental in the production of lots of tools and protective garments - not only of the sort you seem to have in mind - and IMO could easily justify a production bonus.

EDIT:
Plantation-building name: With the inherent unhappiness you're evoking the slave-based "Plantation System" of the antebellum American south,yes? So how about "Plantation House" or "Plantation Mansion"?

I'd be a lot more enthused about the happiness hit - which seems like a good idea - if buildings could be destroyed. Or maybe just have Equal Rights destroy the Plantation building, or re-adjust the bonus/penalty? While it does make sense ER would cause more unhappiness with your Plantations, I think it makes even more sense that the Plantation is removed or the labor eased.

You could have a sharecropping Building that causes unhappiness and converts Farmed food to gold, or gives a gold bonus based on food. ("Company Store" is pretty good, but should have a relatively late tech-req? "Land Office"? "Owner's Manor"?)

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 01:30 PM
Perhaps make the fish thing Salt Ponds and/or Brine Wells? Preservation of Fish was a really big deal. I think you could justify a pretty big bonus. Maybe even an empire-wide one via a National Wonder type thing. (Or a per-city one based on a separate Fishmonger/market building then available in each city? Could you have them give bonus food only when you've got Fish? Could Fish be treated something like a Strategic resource and allow X buildings to be built per Fish? So many questions. Maybe I'll get the game.)

Anyhoo... Then give the extra farm yield effect to the Bakery? It think that's even easier to justify.

Don't have quite the capabilities of RifE or Wild Mana here yet. :p Can't really have a different bonus available in different cities.

Not only can fish (and other food resources) be treated as strategic resources, that is EXACTLY what I'm doing. Most will have 2-3 resources on a plot, IIRC (set it up a few days ago :p).

I may end up changing the fish bonus, in the process of implementing all the buildings now. Bakery is already in at 20% food stored and +1 :food:, with Brewery as +3 :) -2 :hammers:


Leatherworker vs. Hunting Lodge:

I don't know what *you* get up to with leather goods, but I think a happy bonus would be more appropriate to the Hunting Lodge than the Leatherworker. The Lodge could give the populace access to a greater variety of foods, plus the fun of hunting for the rich and the fun of poaching for the poor. Outdoor fun for all, anyway. Picking mushrooms, say: There's a food treat for one and all. Plus it doesn't always have to be about gutting something.

Leatherworkers are instrumental in the production of lots of tools and protective garments - not only of the sort you seem to have in mind - and IMO could easily justify a production bonus.

Actually, I was thinking luxury goods. Leather couches, boots, jackets, etc. Could just as easily be applied for work clothing as well, though, as you said, but I like having the hunting lodge make forests more productive. It's an effect that is otherwise not very evident, and more interesting IMO than just a flat production bonus (which I would have to do with the leatherworker, can't tie it to forests :p). So the happiness stays, as I have to have some kind of effect to make it not worthless later on, with the armor only applying to earlier units.


Plantation-building name: With the inherent unhappiness you're evoking the slave-based "Plantation System" of the antebellum American south,yes? So how about "Plantation House" or "Plantation Mansion"?

I'd be a lot more enthused about the happiness hit - which seems like a good idea - if buildings could be destroyed. Or maybe just have Equal Rights destroy the Plantation building, or re-adjust the bonus/penalty? While it does make sense ER would cause more unhappiness with your Plantations, I think it makes even more sense that the Plantation is removed or the labor eased.

You could have a sharecropping Building that causes unhappiness and converts Farmed food to gold, or gives a gold bonus based on food. ("Company Store" is pretty good, but should have a relatively late tech-req? "Land Office"? "Owner's Manor"?)

Yes, that was Black_Imperator's idea with that one (He helped me come up with many of the effects on #erebus). Plantation House works for a name, will use it. ;)

Hmm... Maybe instead of ER adding more unhappiness, I could have it remove the unhappiness from the building, but also reduce the yields?

One thing to keep in mind: All of these buildings are maintenance free. Aside from the requirement of needing the resource, of course. ;)


Edit: Also, the Sheep building is entirely changing; It will be much more awesome for some cities, less useful for others. ;)

Marquoz
Oct 08, 2010, 01:33 PM
Dang. I saw you posted, Valk, and was sure it was to say the new mod was uploaded. Grumble grumble grumble. And don't you dare say "it'll be out tonight or tomorrow" like you've done all week! ;)

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 01:37 PM
I'm working on it right now. ;)

Sorry, meant to do it yesterday but ended up going to a poker game. On the bright side, I won some money in the process, which will pay for liquor tonight, so worth it overall. :lol:

LDiCesare
Oct 08, 2010, 02:50 PM
Wealth Process buffed to 25% efficiency.
Although a good ideea, you're still off the mark.
If instead of building wealth you build a worker and then sell it back, you gain more than 30%. Depending on the unit, you can gain up to 40% (I think it's with the landsknecht), and I didn't check all units.
So Wealth should provide at least 40%. If you lowered unit production costs and their resale value didn't drop, then you must make wealth at least 50% to just come even with building units and then selling them back.
Of course, selling units requires some time, but I think the micromanagement abuse shouldn't be encouraged.

heinous_hat
Oct 08, 2010, 02:57 PM
I'm working on it right now. ;)

Sorry, meant to do it yesterday but ended up going to a poker game. On the bright side, I won some money in the process, which will pay for liquor tonight, so worth it overall. :lol:

Building the 'change jar' improvement will also help with this after 10-15 turns or so. Try the laundry room tile, since that's where it tends to accumulate :)

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 03:54 PM
Although a good ideea, you're still off the mark.
If instead of building wealth you build a worker and then sell it back, you gain more than 30%. Depending on the unit, you can gain up to 40% (I think it's with the landsknecht), and I didn't check all units.
So Wealth should provide at least 40%. If you lowered unit production costs and their resale value didn't drop, then you must make wealth at least 50% to just come even with building units and then selling them back.
Of course, selling units requires some time, but I think the micromanagement abuse shouldn't be encouraged.

I went with 25 for a couple of reasons. Partially to make it even with the science process, and partially for other reasons.

Resale value is a function of hammer cost, IIRC, so it drops automatically with hammer costs. Something I should check on however.

All that said, I agree that that exploit should be removed. I'm more of the opinion that the sell-back profits should be reduced, however, rather than buffing the process much more; Several of us have told the devs that the profits should be nerfed a bit, so we'll see. Until I hear an answer on that one way or the other, I won't make the change.

Building the 'change jar' improvement will also help with this after 10-15 turns or so. Try the laundry room tile, since that's where it tends to accumulate :)

:lol: I only have to buy a bit of beer. And provide use of my hookah (for shisha, nothing illegal people :p) of course. Others are bringing some real liquor.

Afforess
Oct 08, 2010, 04:05 PM
hookah

The State of Michigan, in it's infinite wisdom, already banned it for all uses.

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 04:17 PM
The State of Michigan, in it's infinite wisdom, already banned it for all uses.

....Seriously? It's for :):):):)ing tobacco, man.

Hell, I was pissed off enough when the democrats outlawed Clove cigarettes (Oh noooo they outlawed 'flavored' cigarettes. Yet the most ubiquitous variety, menthols, are naturally still legal. Can't outlaw the COMMON one, let's just outlaw the one that most people don't even know about so we can look like we're doing something! Yay!), I'd be much more pissed off if they outlawed a hookah.

Bad enough that the nearest good hookah bar is two hours away, at least if I own my own I can go down to the head shop and buy shisha and coals.

Afforess
Oct 08, 2010, 04:20 PM
....Seriously? It's for :):):):)ing tobacco, man.

Hell, I was pissed off enough when the democrats outlawed Clove cigarettes (Oh noooo they outlawed 'flavored' cigarettes. Yet the most ubiquitous variety, menthols, are naturally still legal. Can't outlaw the COMMON one, let's just outlaw the one that most people don't even know about so we can look like we're doing something! Yay!), I'd be much more pissed off if they outlawed a hookah.

Bad enough that the nearest good hookah bar is two hours away, at least if I own my own I can go down to the head shop and buy shisha and coals.

On the plus side, last year, the voters (the voters, not the government) legalized medical marijuana. All the cities are scrambling to create their own laws to ban it though.

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 04:26 PM
On the plus side, last year, the voters (the voters, not the government) legalized medical marijuana. All the cities are scrambling to create their own laws to ban it though.

Meh. Give it 5-10 years, and it'll be legal everywhere. About to be in California, and when other states see how much money they make taxing it.... Pot will become legal. :lol:

Opera
Oct 08, 2010, 04:28 PM
....Seriously? It's for :):):):)ing tobacco, man.I thought you were smoking it.

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 04:38 PM
I thought you were smoking it.

LOL

Wow, Opera. Just wow.

darkedone02
Oct 08, 2010, 04:48 PM
remind me of the water pipes/bong's in the jefferson mall...

Valkrionn
Oct 08, 2010, 05:46 PM
Just as an update: Buildings are in and working. I'll be tweaking costs/tech requirements tomorrow, and trying to make some icons for them.

As of now... I'm off to a party.

TheDisco
Oct 08, 2010, 06:27 PM
Although a good ideea, you're still off the mark.
If instead of building wealth you build a worker and then sell it back, you gain more than 30%. Depending on the unit, you can gain up to 40% (I think it's with the landsknecht), and I didn't check all units.
So Wealth should provide at least 40%. If you lowered unit production costs and their resale value didn't drop, then you must make wealth at least 50% to just come even with building units and then selling them back.
Of course, selling units requires some time, but I think the micromanagement abuse shouldn't be encouraged.

But selling back doesn't get you any bonuses like market, bank, stock exchange, etc. So the 25% conversion could really end up being more like 50% if it has the infrastructure. At least I think it would work that way I didn't actually look though...

PLUS, one thing I noticed is you get the unit cost applied for the unit you built in the turn you built it, which can have a big impact. I once was taking 2 turns to build a scout to sell it for 20g, but on the turn it showed up I got hit with an 8g unit cost which made my profit only 12g...