Here is the set up ---

Greater Archipelago (standard map size)
Standard Settings
Random Civs
Monarch Level
Victory Options - ALL
Civ: Russia (expansionist / scientific)

Obviously, I've not set a goal. This would be up for discussion. I figure 3 to 4 players total, for a closed SG. Just post an affirmative reply if you're in and PM others your email address for future save-games. Any experience levels are welcome.

My 20 turns:

4000 BC - Moscow founded; set research-line for Literature (GL).

3550 BC - Spearman built.

3450 BC - Met France; bought Ceremonial Burial for Bronze Working & 17 gold.

3050 BC - Saved Game.

I didn't know whether to go for galleys or the Great Library. I figured the GL would be nice to have on an archipelago map. Its up for discussion. France is located within the mountainous region northeast of Moscow. I mostly explored during my 20 turns.

Foothold (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/foothold.jpg)

Well, I would have said, go for both the GLs! That's what I did with England in the current GOTM. You would kick off a GA by building the Lighthouse, I think, and that would probably get you the Library. Keep in mind that for the Library to work, you need contact with two other civs... ideally, civs that are atg the forefront in research. That means sailing. And if you sail far and wide enough, you can become a research broker without doing any research halfway into the Middle Ages. That could theoretically make Russia a very rich civ.

In terms of conditions: what about winning the space race with a set number of cities? It could be as many as twenty, but fifteen is a good challenge.

Originally posted by Txurce


In terms of conditions: what about winning the space race with a set number of cities? It could be as many as twenty, but fifteen is a good challenge.

That's a good idea. Could it be done w/ out a FP?

If we decide on 15 cities, an FP wouldn't help all that much, except for the distance factor. But we could further complicate things by having to build those cities on more than one land mass - say three, or more. The overall idea would be to create a relatively peaceful, small-is-better, maritime civ.

Originally posted by Txurce
But we could further complicate things by having to build those cities on more than one land mass - say three, or more. The overall idea would be to create a relatively peaceful, small-is-better, maritime civ.

Three or more islands would definitely force us to be diplomats. Our proximity to a number of civs would make every international confrontation hairy. I like it. So, we shoot for space w/ 15 cities (or less) on three (minimum) different islands. Now, does this mean we must capture the 15th city on an island if we can't expand to the goal peacefully? Or, is our aim a general benchmark?

Did you download the save? I'm assuming you did. I wonder who downloaded the other, and if they're interested in taking part?

I would say that 15 cities should be our maximum, but we could go with less. An example of this would be that we have 13 productive cities on three islands, and any further expansion would be distant enough to be mostly corrupt. The three-island minimum is what forces us to be diplomats, as you point out. Whether we are required to expand peacefully, or can war to spread out, is up to you.

A different way to create a similar diplomat scenario would be to place no limit on the number of islands on which we could build a city, but to limit the number of cities you can build on an island to five (or less).

Let me know what you'd like to do, and I'll start my turn. I tried to download the save, forgetting that my OS can't download yours. Want to email it to me?

2950: We build a second scout, since there are two directions worth exploring, and potential huts to pop.

2800: St. Petersburg founded on the coast by a lake, so it can grow large enough to build the Great Lighthouse wonder. It will build a worker to maximize its tiles, then start on a temple, so as to set up the wonder.

2430: We meet the Germans to the north, and trade pottery plus ceremonial burial for warrior code.

2310: We trade the Germans the aplhabet for a worker plus ten gold.

2110: We meet the English, who are even with us in tech. The Germans have iron working, and the French have masonry. We can wait for iron working until we build the Great Library, but masonry will allow us to prebuild a wonder, and should be acquired at some point.

Our new settler is headed for the forest square just south of the cattle. I thought that this site would make a good settler factory. My intent was to build temples in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, grow them with the help of designated workers, and build both the GLs. (Keep in mind that irrigating grassland doesn't help in despotism.) If we get lucky, we may have writing (and communications) before all of the local civs meet each other.

By the way, at some point we should decide which limitations we want to apply to this game. I suggested a couple of variations, but I'm fine with whatever.

Originally posted by Txurce

By the way, at some point we should decide which limitations we want to apply to this game. I suggested a couple of variations, but I'm fine with whatever.

Well, lets stick to the three-island minimum too meet "maritime" description. Let's not be too specific on # of cities per island, at the least three - maximum five.

Victory condition = S/R

Also, we can build the FP as long as its not on the original island? What do you think?

So it's a three-island minimum, 3-5 cities per island, and s/r win only? I think it's fine to build an FP, since it doesn't philsophically contradict our "maritime trader" approach. Keeping it off the main island is fine, since you probably wouldn't want to build it there anyway, given how few cities we'll have there.

Okay, we have our work cut out for us. Getting those wonders becomes very important. If we'll only have five cities on the home continent, the three that aren't working directly on the wonders should probably make sure that our little corner of the world is militarily secure, as well as possibly augmenting the population of the wonder cities by building workers that join those cities. Building temples in all is also probably a priority, as we'll want to boost our culture rating against the ever-increasing magnetic pull of our inevitably huge neighbors. What do you think?

Perfect! Now, what about a third player? This person should be next. Or, we can do it and allow someone to join later.

I'm fine waiting for a bit or with you continuing and letting a third join in at a later point. These early turns go pretty uneventfully, anyway.

Hey you crazy mac-guys, Txurce and I are searching for a third player in our SG. Simply download the SAV.zip and play 20 turns, posting all the highlights. Be sure to read up on our self-imposed parameters. Oh yeah, make sure you post that you're in before someone else does.

1st - Post saying, "I'm in!"
2nd - Download SAV.zip and play 20 turns
3rd - Post highlights and what you feel needs to be addressed in the next 20 turns.

Its a fun and learning experience - always. And, 20 turns every third/fourth day is no burden at all. ;)

djb-2 Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb2,2110BC-SAV.zip)

I'm in. Will play this evening (German time).

Originally posted by tao
I'm in. Will play this evening (German time).

Fantastic! :goodjob: Hey, check your PM folder (usercp), I sent you my email address in case we need to email saved games. The order of play is as follows:

dojoboy
txurce
tao

In our last game, we got into the habit of emailing the save to each player. This way, everyone can open it up and assess needs, offering their two cents worth.

Welcome aboard, tao!

Uh oh. I had a quick look at the game during lunch break and didn't like it at all:

Why oh why did you build 2 spearmen instead of 4 warriors? We now have no escort for our settler.

If we limit ourselves to 5 cities on this continent, then we definitely do NOT want to have overlaps. Therefore we can neither cover the cattle nor the gold hill with our next city. I suggest the river square east of the spices. Obviously, we need an escort. I will use the spearman from St. Petersburg and build a warrior there. Having 3 spices will allow us trading and therefore hopefully avoid wars, since we don't want to conquer our continent.

Since both Moscow and St. Petersburg have access to water, they can grow to size 12. Therefore we need granaries before temples!

Final (for now) thoughts:
- The worker building a mine in the middle of nowhere will stop immediately and start a road to our spice city.
- If we want 5 cities max, why do we need a "settler factory"?
- We need 2 units to block the isthmus northeast of Moscow to keep out unwanted settlers.

Really final thought:
If I just wanted to win, I would go for conquest of this continent. Big enough, 4 luxuries (at least), probably suitable terrain types for all strategic resources. But: let's do it the hard way!

Tao, I guess your post means you're joining the game, even though you "don't like the (situation) at all." Short of doing something really contrary to our stated goals, you're entitled to do whatever you like during your turn. However, I don't find your observations to be very polite, nor as "obvious" as you do. To illustrate the latter point, I'll offer a counter-argument to everything you intend to do.

I built a spearman in my turn to remain consistent with Dojoboy's start. I tend to go with warriors early myself, but lots of players prefer to start with spearmen. However, I never escort my settlers. Since I build my cities close to each other, it's never a long walk, and help is almost always nearby in case a barbarian comes along. And if it's not, I live with the consequences. In this particular game, there is no need to escort settlers, as there are no barbarian encampments to our north. The city can build its own unit.

Whether cities should overlap or not is a question that has no definitive consensus among the best civ players, but the leaning is definitely toward overlap. The reason is that for most of the game city populations are low enough that it's irrelevant, and the relative closeness makes the cities easier to connect by roads, and thus defend; even in the late game, it's not that big a deal. I agree that it could be beneficial in our late game, given our 5-city limit, but felt that it was more important to quickly build two wonder cities that could grow past size 6.

If we're devoting the first two cities to wonder-building, then the third city better be a factory - first for settlers, then for workers and units - hence building near the cattle. The spices will still be there for the next settler to cover, and we're not going to be trading any luxuries for another era, so there's no rush there.

The worker building a mine in the "middle of nowhere" is actually building a mine next to where I intended to build the third city.

This leads me to my next point: regardless of where the ideal site for the third city might be, the ground has been laid for it to be near the cattle - there is a settler en route, and a worker improving the terrain. To send the settler off in a different direction, and throw away the worker's work, will definitely cost us more potential benefit (especially at this early stage) than whatever we might get by having them both go elsewhere.

Just because our first two cities can grow to size 12 doesn't mean that building a granary first is the best move to achieve our goal: to build a wonder in each. There is no question that we need to build temples before starting the wonders, to ensure happiness at higher population levels. Can we afford to use up shields on granaries that would otherwise go to the wonders? Will the granaries make up for the shield loss by producing extra population in time to affect the wonder-building? I'm not sure.

(My own method for accelerating city growth in wonder cities when not trying to expand rapidly is to have a worker factory that fattens up the wonder cities. Keep in mind that our other three cities will have nothing to do for many turns except build temples and barracks, a certain number of units... and workers. I would have cities 4 and 5 focus on units, and city 3 on workers to grow the wonder cities. But as I said, this is very much my own style.)

Blocking the isthmus is a fine idea in theory, but given that we only need two more settlers to reach our five-city maximum, and rival cities encroaching are unlikely to prevent us from reaching that number, I question whether that is the best use of our limited production resources.

Originally posted by tao

Why oh why did you build 2 spearmen instead of 4 warriors? We now have no escort for our settler.


Like Txurce, I never build escorts for my settlers. Partly because I knowingly play on maps where barbs are sedentary, as they are on this map.

Also, unless, I build the Great Pyramid, granaries are one of the later structures I build, if I build them at all. Just offering this for dialogue, to understand how each person plays. And, yep, we are trying to do this the hard way. ;)

Preturn considerations (revisited after co-players posts):
I still prefer granaries before temples. I don't like unescorted settlers. I don't like city overlaps. I play this (my first succession game) to learn, especially by criticising and being criticized. Like very much to secure luxuries.

Therefore: Send Moscow spearman after settler; set Moscow to produce warrior, granary afterwards. Will let St. Petersburg on temple. Will redirect settler/worker to spice site.

2070 BC Bismark is willing to trade masonry for mysticism+8; wait, since we don't need it now.

2030 BC set Moscow worker to mine (why did we build road befor mine? imho we need shields more than commerce)
Liz offers writing for 140g or comm with France plus 30; not yet

1940 BC Moscow builds warrior starts granary; St.P worker starts mine. Liz now offers writing plus 10g for contact with France; masonry for 45g from France? not yet.

1870 BC trade contact with France to Bismark for iron working and writing; trade contact with England to France for masonry plus 18g; research literature. Note: iron is southeast of Moscow.

1790 BC Bismark has the wheel for 120g; no

1750 BC build Kiev, fortify spear

1600 BC England gets the wheel; offers for 55g; Bismark for 60g; no
1550 BC Germany builds pyramids in Berlin
1500 BC Moscow builds granary starts warrior (1 mp equals temple and takes only 2 turns)
1475 St.P builds temple starts Colossus as placeholder
1450 Moscow builds warrior starts pyramids as placeholder; literature due in 6 at -2gpt with 155g

saved game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-2_Catherine, 1450 BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-2_1450bc.jpg

Tao, good work trading the communications. Dojoboy, you now have our work cut out for you on two fronts.

First, Moscow is probably going to need a temple before it finishes the Great Library, as it will soon grow large enough to generate more unhappiness than two defenders (the despotism allotment) can suppress; the alternative is to be ready to hike the luxury slider way up. The downside to building a temple after the granary is that it will cause us to lose the GL. My sense is that raising the luxury slider and hoping it doesn't break us is the lesser of two evils. (Side question: when playing monarch, when does unhappiness kick in?)

Second, ouput from Kiev will be significantly later than planned, so we need to maximize production from it and the two cities it will spawn. These three are going to be our pumps for a credible military deterrent against the unfortunately neighboring Germans, as well as for workers, galleys, and settlers to sail on those galleys. If you choose not to rush settlers from Kiev, then at some point it may be worth having workers do what they can to raise the population there as quickly as possible - I can't tell from the map if that's even possible, though.

It's probably best to switch Kiew to settler from barracks. My reasoning was that going for GL we should set research to 0 allowing for lux. Hooking up spices will also help.

Agreed across the board. The one caveat regarding when to set research at zero is our need for mapmaking. We could theoretically wait until two other civs discover it and then get it for free with the Great Library, but if someone happens to beat us to the first wonder, we could be in trouble getting the second one as well.

Okay, I got the save and will play later tonight.

Originally posted by Txurce
Agreed across the board. The one caveat regarding when to set research at zero is our need for mapmaking. We could theoretically wait until two other civs discover it and then get it for free with the Great Library, but if someone happens to beat us to the first wonder, we could be in trouble getting the second one as well.

Two points on this:

1. GLight is build in St.P and cannot be build in Moscow because it requires a coastal city. We therefore could switch St.P to Palace, buy map making, switch back to GLight.

2. I suppose in between we will grow faster than our happiness permits. This will allow for a researcher specialist working on map making. In consequence: let's wait and not buy early.

Final notes:
When/if(?) we get both GLib(scientific) and GLight(expansionist), we will trigger our Golden Age. Do we want to stay in Despotism or waste I suppose 3 at most 4 cycles in anarchie?
Question: Is the GA bonus also affected by Despotism output cutting (-1 if >2)? I don't know. :confused:

Originally posted by tao


Question: Is the GA bonus also affected by Despotism output cutting (-1 if >2)? I don't know. :confused:

Do we have monarchy? If so, we should switch now. As small as we are, anarchy will not last long.

Originally posted by dojoboy


Do we have monarchy? If so, we should switch now. As small as we are, anarchy will not last long.

a) no monarchy
b) we don't want no anarchy in a wonder race

Switching St. Petersburg to a palace prebuild safeguards our wonder investment, but doesn't lower the risk of not being able to buy mapmaking in time, or acquire it in time via the Library. With bad luck, civ A beats civ B to the Oracle or the Pyramids, for example, and civ B immediately switches to the Lighthouse and completes it, all before we have a chance to acquire and build it ourselves. Researching it is the safe bet.

There probably won't be any decision to be made regarding what to do with the GA, because I suspect we won't have republic or monarchy during that stretch.

On a related topic, I advocate switching from despotism to republic at the appropriate time, bypassing monarchy altogether, and never leaving republic. I don't think the additional anarchy periods are worth the potential benefits in either case.

Well, we're getting bullied fairly regularly. Germany extorted literature from us!:mad: I reloaded (for kicks) just to see what they would do if I refused and they declared war - whew! Of course, Bismarck traded it around during the same turn. So, other than being in position to switch to the GL, we gained nothing from literature. As my turns were ending, England extorted territory map & 25 gold. Currently, we're researching map making (25 turns) w/ siders set at 3-5-2. We could probably go to 8-0-2 and purchase map making. Our current wonder builds are improving fairly well w/ added mines. Would roads increase production in despotism? If so, we need more workers. I did switch Kiev from barraks to settler. I had the settler heading towards the cattle northwest of Moscow. I figured being near Moscow would help production. Also, I have Kiev building a temple inorder to envelope the other two spices. We may be able to hook up Germany by roads for trade.

We've got to figure that one of the GWs (GP & Colossus) is going to get built first, which will mean another civ will switch their wonder pre-build to the GL. We've got to get really close before this happens.

Russia Map (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/russia.jpg)

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-2,950BC-SAV.zip)

Could you give a more detailed report please? Especially when did the other civs start their wonder production.
Originally posted by dojoboy
Well, we're getting bullied fairly regularly. Germany extorted literature from us!:mad: I reloaded (for kicks) just to see what they would do if I refused and they declared war - whew!
I am really disappointed to hear this. Is it possible, that you did not trade around enough? Just for fun, I played your turn quick and dirty without much thought and micromanagement during lunchtime and did a lot better. E.g. I traded maps with England and France, then sold WM to Germany for 22g. Afterwards I donated Bismark 1gpt and he even turned polite :goodjob:
Currently, we're researching map making (25 turns) w/ siders set at 3-5-2. We could probably go to 8-0-2 and purchase map making.
Just look at diplomacy: we can buy it now.
Would roads increase production in despotism?
Roads never increase production, only commerce.
Also, I have Kiev building a temple inorder to envelope the other two spices. We may be able to hook up Germany by roads for trade.
I would instead build barracks, then 1-2 units first.
We've got to figure that one of the GWs (GP & Colossus) is going to get built first, which will mean another civ will switch their wonder pre-build to the GL. We've got to get really close before this happens.
If you would have traded for map making, you would have seen that currently both finish at the same time. The question is, would we delay the faster city and gamble for both or nothing? :confused:

Finally: why didn't you mine the bonus graslands first? We are wasting shields!:spank:

Note to Txurce: We will very soon know our continent with some map trading. I suggest then to use the scouts for blocking the isthmus and prevent other civs' settlers access to "our" iron southeast of Moscow.

Originally posted by tao
Could you give a more detailed report please? Especially when did the other civs start their wonder production.

The other civs never began a GW during my turns, I'm assuming they are building at least one each.

Originally posted by tao
E.g. I traded maps with England and France, then sold WM to Germany for 22g. Afterwards I donated Bismark 1gpt and he even turned polite :goodjob:


I never have given gpt deals to make a civ polite. Interesting approach.

Originally posted by tao
Just look at diplomacy: we can buy it now.

Yes, I know we can buy it. But, I wanted to allow you guys input.

Originally posted by tao
Roads never increase production, only commerce.

Really, I just assumed since railroads do that roads might.

Originally posted by tao
I would instead build barracks, then 1-2 units first.

Either way, but my feeling is 1 - 2 units are not going to keep us from being bullied, and no one is going to attack us if we're smart.

Originally posted by tao
If you would have traded for map making, you would have seen that currently both finish at the same time. The question is, would we delay the faster city and gamble for both or nothing? :confused:

Do you mean Collossus & Great Lighthouse? Because the Great Library is probably the same as the Great Pyramid. I was not talking about any specific GW, but the fact that we risk losing one of the two GWs that we want from a wonder-switch by another civ, upon the completion of a GW. I believe we can get both the Great Lighthouse and the Great Library since their production requriements are not equal.

Originally posted by tao
Finally: why didn't you mine the bonus graslands first? We are wasting shields!:spank:

Does the bonus affect mines and crops (irrigation)? I understand it as a bonus for irrigated grasslands.

Easy with that paddle, tao! ;)

Originally posted by dojoboy
Really, I just assumed since railroads do that roads might. Does the bonus affect mines and crops (irrigation)? I understand it as a bonus for irrigated grasslands.


The bonus is +1 shield; roads are +1 commerce; railroads are +1 to irrigation or mines. Find this and much more in this excellent overview (http://www.civfanatics.net/files/civ3/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3).

Either way, but my feeling is 1 - 2 units are not going to keep us from being bullied, and no one is going to attack us if we're smart.
Being smart in my opinion means setting up some defense in Kiew, establishing embassies, and getting military alliances if Germany attacks us, which will probably happen sooner or later.

Originally posted by tao


The bonus is +1 shield; roads are +1 commerce; railroads are +1 to irrigation or mines. Find this and much more in this excellent overview (http://www.civfanatics.net/files/civ3/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3).

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out soon.

Originally posted by tao
Being smart in my opinion means setting up some defense in Kiew, establishing embassies, and getting military alliances if Germany attacks us, which will probably happen sooner or later.

Yes, relationships need to be made and defenses prepared. I totally agree and would make such arrangements. I was simply considering happiness in a city that is probably closer to Germany's capital than ours. In the early game, w/ turns moving quickly, we could get the temple built and then the barracks and units relatively soon. My perspective simply shows my approach in the early game. Either choice is fine w/ me.

Bismarck is notoriously aggressive, and unfortunately Kiev is isolated, under-defended, and on his border, so we will be knuckling under to German (and other) extortion attempts for a long time. In deciding not to sell literature - and I probably wouldn't have - the extortion attempt couldn't be avoided. Paying preventive tribute (gpt) doesn't always prevent extortion, by the way - I think it's more likely to prevent a sneak attack.

Kiev is going to be a satellite - and therefore a problem - for quite a while, if not the whole game. Although centered on a prime site, it was probably built a few tiles too far to the north, from the point of view of eventually joining borders. Although I think all of the adjoining spices are safe without an immediate temple, it may still be a good idea to build a temple there first, and at least defend this isolated city culturally. We certainly need barracks and more units, but they're not going to be built in time. I'll think about this choice, but regardless, would advise that we ship units from cities 4 and 5 north as soon as reasonably possible. (An alliance is the obvious move if we're attacked, but I don't see the point to building an embassy until that point.)

I agree that building our next city near the cattle is the best bet to generate units, settlers, and workers, as well as joining our borders as best we can. (I think our fifth city's location is pretty much dictated by the iron resource in the south - what about you guys?)

My plan is to mine more tiles around the two wonder cities - on the bonus squares, as Tao noted - and use the upcoming cattle city to build a warrior for St. Petersburg, a warrior for itself, and then a settler.

I think researching mapmaking was the safe choice, and in this case, I'm not sure whether it's worth throwing away the beakers already invested to buy the tech earlier. It won't be an issue if I can synchronize our two wonder cities to finish as close as possible on the same turn.

I was thinking of using the scouts to block the isthmus as well, and may even cut short their explorations. However, that will not stop the Germans. if they come with a settler, I guess our best bet is to use the fast scouts as mobile blockers, while we hustle our fifth settler to its destination.

One final comment: I'm sure more deals could have been struck during Dojoboy's turns, but it probably would have required going to the diplomacy screen every turn. That's pretty cumbersome, and most players don't do it. I applaud anyone who does, and have no problem with someone who doesn't.

950BC: The two workers not mining bonus squares were rerouted. Kiev was left building a temple for the time being.

Everyone else had mapmaking; the French agreed to sell it and a territory map for HBR, a world map, and 54 gold. By dropping our research to zero, we will ultimately come out ahead in gold. The TM allowed one scout to head straight home and act as a border guard.

875BC: The English start building the Great Library. Minsk is settled just north of the cattle. Its first two builds will be warriors - one for itself, and one for garrisoning St. Petersburg - followed by a settler.

800BC: The French start to build the Great Library.

750BC: The luxury rate is raised to 20% to keep Moscow from disorder.

590BC: The Germans start to build the Great Library.

570BC: St. Petersburg is maximized for its wonder, and its lone worker moves off to chop down a forest outside Minsk, to both speed its settler build and to build a connecting road.

550BC: The Germans demand and receive 27 gold in tribute.

530BC: The scout exploring the German jungle near Kiev encounters an Indian warrior and settler. To protect the potential spice holdings, the temple is rushed at a cost of two citizens, reducing Kiev's population from 5 to a healthy 3. The following series of trades are then completed:

India gives contact with China and Japan, 22 gold and a territory map for contact with Germany, literature and a world map.

China gives philosophy, mathematics and a world map for contact with Germany, literature and a world map.

Germany gives 50 gold and a territory map (all it has) for contact with Japan (which has no gold or techs).

England gives code of laws, 57 gold and a world map(all it has) for contact with Japan and a world map.

France gives 26 gold and a world map (all it has) for contact with Japan.

India gives polytheism, 22 gold and a world map (all it has) for contact with England and a world map.

China gives 63 gold and a world map (all it has) for contact with England and a world map.

This series of trades leave Russia even or ahead in tech, insurance in the unlikely case we lose out on the Great Library. We also have 538 gold, and a world map that reveals the location of the eighth civ (probably Rome).

510BC: Kiev completes its temple, and starts work on barracks. Coordinated mining leaves both wonders four turns from completion.

Summary: Russia is first in population and manufacturing, and last in size and GNP. Suggestions for what to do next, apart from building a city near the iron, include mining Kiev and Minsk; building galleys, settlers and units; making contact as soon as possible with the civ east of Tatung (see map); building a temple in Moscow; and maybe mining more of St. Petersburg while going for the Colossus there.

Bravo, Txurce!

Thanks, Dojoboy. This game is going to be tough, because much of the world has been explored. Our best hope is to use the Lighthouse to explore, and find a patch of ground somewhere to build a second cluster of cities.

Tao, e-mail me at (material@gte.net) so I can send you the game. I have no idea how to upload, locate and then list the game-save here.

I got the game and will play tonight.
:goodjob: for your trading!
:rant: about the way you handled Kiev; just look: 1 (one!) lousy shield per turn. I suppose you joined the worker before hurrying the temple? Or where is it gone? We need another worker here fast, even before building barracks.

Tao, to answer your question, I didn't join any workers to Kiev; there were no workers at Kiev when I began my turn. That even at pop. 5 it only has one shield reflects more on its placement than anything else. Moving on to your general point about this cursed city, I handled Kiev exactly as it should have been handled. My rationale:

Kiev remains undeveloped because our only priority during my turn was making sure we got both wonders. We had three workers total, and all three worked on mines for the wonder cities up until the very end, when one left to work on Minsk. This last worker could have gone to Kiev instead, but it's no more important than Minsk at this time, and much closer to reach - therefore, it was the more efficient use of this worker. Building a worker before the temple would have been a viable alternative, but I agreed with Dojoboy that building a temple as soon as possible made more sense, given its unfortunate isolation and nearness to the spices... and it certainly does now, given the culture-rich Indians' proximity. I don't know whether we're better off building a worker there now ahead of a barracks, or just sending an existing worker up there, now that the wonder mining is done - it's up to you. One can never have enough workers until the modern era, so I'm happy either way.

Preturn considerations:

We have to reduce the extortion costs. Therefore we have to establish embassies. We reduce out cash, thus less to extort. And also we improve our relations. (Embassies do this, trust me!)

Embassies tell me:
Paris; GLib due in 67 at 5 sh/t
London: GLib due in 40 at 7 sh/t
Delhi: Oracle due in 45 at 5 sh/t
Kyoto: Pyramids due in 64 at 6/t
Berlin: Pyramids due in 2 at 10sh/t

Sh*t! We are in big trouble. Germany will be the prime power for the foreseeable future. We have to keep them happy until we can kick their ass. (Hopefully we will be able to do so at some time to come!) Good: Berlin has worker to sell! Buy it for 28g and send it to Kiew.

We have to avoid war. We have to establish a tech lead to get top defensive power. And we have to be able to bribe others in case Germany attacks. We should try to get a city grabbing 2 or 3 silks or furs up north to have something to trade!

We have to switch to republic asap, trade techs we get from Glib foe gold, hurry improvements.

Moscow: who mined the tundra? Who irrigated the grasland (useless in despotism). Lots of worker turns wasted!

Kiew is on governor: very bad. Rearrange tiles, increase food from 7 to 9 per turn. We need to reach size 6 and kick into wltkd in order to reduce corruption.

Minsk is our only coastal city on open water. Therefore switch from settler to galley. We need ships. Settlers can be build after the wonders.

Start the trading round.
France: wm - wm
England wm - tm
Japan: wm . wm
India: wm - tm
Germany: wm-wm; everybody is polite.

490 bc India founds Hyderabad on coast near spice. Good! Our culture is much better (or will be, once the GLs kick in). And we can drag them into war with Germany. Trade some maps 1g surplus.

470 bc as expected, Berlin finishes pyramids; Beijing switches to GLib; Kyoto to Oracle; Edo starts GLib;

450 bc: Bismark extorts another 35g :cry:

430 bc: Moscow finishes Glib, produces settler; St.P finishes GLight produces spearman !Golden Age! :D
lux to 10%; culture of Kiew expands; and of London giving us horses.
Edo switches to Colossus, Paris, London and Beijing switch to Oracle
Trade maps; India and germany want 3g; buy from India and learn missing continent fully settled by Iroques. Don't buy contact yet.

410 bc GLib gives us construction; buy contact to Iroquese from Bismark for 98g. Trade math+tm to Iro for wm+42g (all they have)

390 bc Minsk builds galley starts temple, St.P builds spear starts Colossus; we outproduce Edo, all other wonder builds are not coastal; we will get it.

370 bc Moscow builds settler starts temple

350 bc Beijing finishes Oracle starts GWall; trade maps 14g surplus

330 bc Delhi, London switch to GWall; China builds Shantung between Kiew and Minsk; we will have to get it in a war! :sniper:
some trades; India built Chittagong on prospective colony site; bad
our galley stes sail toward silks; long journey won't finish in my turn

290 bc London builds GWall, Moscow build temple starts settler

270 bc some map trades, buy workers from Germany and France; shall build road towards iron

230 bc Moscow builds settler starts barracks

190 bc map trades 32 surplus, China has monarchy

150 bc GLib gives monarchy, Moscow builds barracks starts horseman
Iroques start Colossus in Cattaraugus; unload settler/spear haeding for hill next to 2 silks; switch St.P to Hanging Gardens; I firmly believe it to better than Colossus and because we have the pre-build, we will get it.
At the end of the turn (to keep the workers working!) I decide to switch governments; despotism is to bad. What a lucky surprise: only 1 turn :) ; adjust workforce in cities to prevent disorder;

130 bc long live the King; we are Monarchy; :king: map trading surplus 5

110 bc Beijing starts HGardens; Smolensk founded to grap rest of our territory

90 bc GLib gives currency; new aera; scientific gives us monotheism
Moscow builds horseman starts market; Kiew builds barracks starts warrior; entertainer created to get wltkd

Thus ends my reign. Everybody is polite to us, only Hia is cautious.
My suggestions: England has two workers on offer; buy them! Connect Smolensk; you may decide not to build temple but colony on iron(?). I personally would try to build another city in the north to corner the silk market. Since it is really far away, I would define it as "another continent". Build warriors. Upgrade to swordsman, once we have iron. Keep trading a lot. It really helps and hitting shift-d is no great effort.

saved game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb2_Catherine,90BC.SAV) (link now working)

PS: and I just installed MacOS X 10.2.3, a whopping 51 MB download :)

Good job, tao. Your propensity for micromanagement is new for me, which is good. I'll learn some things from you. I'll need to read over your post a couple times to formulate my ideas. BTW, your upload isn't working. Check it out, plus email me the save. Long Live Mother Russia! ;)

Scratch that, I got the email. :)

Tao, this was a very interesting and productive turn. You gave us a lot to ponder, and this game could be memorable. In response to your many moves and comments:

Establishing embassies makes sense for the reasons you stated, especially in light of our treasury. The gold we will save thanks to the Library should provide all the war chest we need to secure alliances.

The grassland in Moscow has been irrigated since the first turn - didn't you notice? Hint: the same guy who irrigated mined the tundra.

Someone was bound to build a city between Kiev and the rest of our civ; it's unfortunate, but I'm through beating that dead horse. The only way we could acquire Shantung would be by not building a city near the iron, since our continental limit is five (by the way, a continent is a continent, no matter how big). An iron colony is a big risk, as they're too easy to lose, unless our culture-rich borders expand far enough to cover the iron... a more radical alternative is to build a placeholder city there, which we could abandon after the borders spread far enough.

The Colossus is a classic wonder for a science city, which is exactly what we ought to have if our small civ is to win the space race. Would you explain why you think the Hanging Gardens is of more benefit to a small civ? Then Dojoboy can decide what he wants to build there on his turn.

I can see why the temptation to switch to monarchy during a GA was so strong, although I'm not sure it would have been worth it, with a normal anarchy period. I'm delighted that the anarchy was only one turn, making the upcoming switch to republic our only likely lull.

I strongly agree that we should buy those English workers , assuming they aren't gone by the time Dojoboy starts his turn - why didn't you buy them?

I not only agree that Kiev shouldn't have had a governor - I think we shouldn't use governors at all, unless we all agree, since their use is not always easy to detect.

I also agree that we should keep trading a lot. Even trading maps helps keep us popular, and possibly out of war.

(And I'll have the same OS as of tomorrow morning!)

Originally posted by Txurce
Tao, this was a very interesting and productive turn. You gave us a lot to ponder, and this game could be memorable.
It will be, because it is my first succession game. :)

Someone was bound to build a city between Kiev and the rest of our civ; it's unfortunate, but I'm through beating that dead horse.
Thank you, but the spices were too tempting.
The only way we could acquire Shantung would be by not building a city near the iron, since our continental limit is five (by the way, a continent is a continent, no matter how big). An iron colony is a big risk, as they're too easy to lose, unless our culture-rich borders expand far enough to cover the iron... a more radical alternative is to build a placeholder city there, which we could abandon after the borders spread far enough.
Alea iact est. I build the iron city, but am not sure on the temple. I pondered a long time on the city position, whether I should go on the coast. This one gives us 2 game plus the iron.
Our culture is getting really strong. Hopefully we can wait and then raze Shantung without leaving a gap. Continents in Civ 3 usually end at a small isthmus. I doubt very much, that e.g. Sun Tzu, Pyramids or Hoover would extend from Moscow to the spice area. This is our 2nd continent! :)
The Colossus is a classic wonder for a science city, which is exactly what we ought to have if our small civ is to win the space race. Would you explain why you think the Hanging Gardens is of more benefit to a small civ? Then Dojoboy can decide what he wants to build there on his turn.
Because it will give us lots of happiness and therefore we can grow St.P I'm not sure, but we might even get HGardens plus Colossus afterwards; competition is weak, but we have to calculate based on guessing competitors build rate. It can be done, if you try, dojoboy! (At least the calculation :) )
I can see why the temptation to switch to monarchy during a GA was so strong, although I'm not sure it would have been worth it, with a normal anarchy period. I'm delighted that the anarchy was only one turn, making the upcoming switch to republic our only likely lull.
For our small culture-strong civ 1-2 turns is normal; lukily it was only 1. Since we will go the peace way, we may even switch to democracy.

I strongly agree that we should buy those English workers , assuming they aren't gone by the time Dojoboy starts his turn - why didn't you buy them?
I wanted to give Dojoboy the decision, scince he has to put them to use. He can buy them pre-turn.


I not only agree that Kiev shouldn't have had a governor - I think we shouldn't use governors at all, unless we all agree, since their use is not always easy to detect.

I also agree that we should keep trading a lot. Even trading maps helps keep us popular, and possibly out of war.

(And I'll have the same OS as of tomorrow morning!)
Complete agreement. Thanks :)

From Tao: "Some more considerations for the next turn: we need to build a harbor soon in order not to miss any lux trading opportunity; worker currently connects 2nd spice. (You know, that it can be advantageous to trade our even our last lux resource to a stronger civ , which will give us one of its spares plus gpr?) We should send another worker to Kiew, because with wltkd we increase production and will want to build aquaeduct in foreseeable future. Silk town should build worker + harbor. Go get HGardens! Go buy the workers!"

Continuing the Colossus vs Gardens debate: happiness in St. Petersburg can be addressed very soon by building a cathedral (as well as a three-man garrison while we're still in monarchy). If we were to try to build both wonders in the same city, the Colossus should probaly come first, since other civs have been building it for a while, and it requires less shields than the Gardens.

At this point, our best bet for a second cluster of cities seems to be the mostly undiscovered island northwest of Japan. We should get some settlers up there as soon as possible. Does it make sense to recall the empty galley? Otherwise, we may end up missing our chance there. (The alternative to the peaceful settling of another continent, of course, is to go fight for foreign territory... which will be an adventure, given our small, if productive, core.)

I agree that we should build a trade-enhancing harbor soon, and focus our workers on building up Kiev... and Minsk as well. By the way, did you mean build an aqueduct in Kiev, or in Minsk? Wouldn’t the river by Kiev preclude the need for an aqueduct? I assumed that was part of the reason why you built it there.

Finally: I didn't know that anarchy could be less than four turns for a non-religious civ, regardless of size. That is a fact definitely worth knowing.

Originally posted by Txurce
From Tao: "Some more considerations for the next turn: we need to build a harbor soon in order not to miss any lux trading opportunity; worker currently connects 2nd spice. (You know, that it can be advantageous to trade our even our last lux resource to a stronger civ , which will give us one of its spares plus gpr?) We should send another worker to Kiew, because with wltkd we increase production and will want to build aquaeduct in foreseeable future. Silk town should build worker + harbor. Go get HGardens! Go buy the workers!"

Continuing the Colossus vs Gardens debate: happiness in St. Petersburg can be addressed very soon by building a cathedral (as well as a three-man garrison while we're still in monarchy). If we were to try to build both wonders in the same city, the Colossus should probaly come first, since other civs have been building it for a while, and it requires less shields than the Gardens.
I did some quick and dirty calculation: if Edo is not doing more than 4 sh/t, we can get both. But that is not sure without more detailed calculation. Sorry: no time now. Personally still in favor of HGardens. We want to be small in number of cities, but each should be as large and producrive (i.e. happy) as possible.
At this point, our best bet for a second cluster of cities seems to be the mostly undiscovered island northwest of Japan. We should get some settlers up there as soon as possible.
Look at my post. By Civ 3 standards, the silk area is another continent I am in strong favor of going there first to grab the silk. We might go for the island afterwards.
Does it make sense to recall the empty galley? Otherwise, we may end up missing our chance there. (The alternative to the peaceful settling of another continent, of course, is to go fight for foreign territory... which will be an adventure, given our small, if productive, core.)
The galley is on recall. But NEVER do gotos, always move turn by turn; if it is possible without losing movement, pass cities and look at defense to learn about competitors. Currently, I do not see us fit to conquer foreign territory.
I agree that we should build a trade-enhancing harbor soon, and focus our workers on building up Kiev... and Minsk as well. By the way, did you mean build an aqueduct in Kiev, or in Minsk? Wouldn’t the river by Kiev preclude the need for an aqueduct? I assumed that was part of the reason why you built it there.
Definitely we need a harbor. My mistake on the aquaeduct; it is not needed; sorry.

Originally posted by tao

I did some quick and dirty calculation: if Edo is not doing more than 4 sh/t, we can get both. But that is not sure without more detailed calculation. Sorry: no time now. Personally still in favor of HGardens. We want to be small in number of cities, but each should be as large and producrive (i.e. happy) as possible.

I feel as small as we're going to be, the HG will provide less in the long run than the Collossus. Since the S/R is our goal, I'm inclined to agree w/ Txurce here. Also, is the HG a continental wonder as well? If so, then only those original cities will be affected. Just thoughts. We can shoot for both.

Originally posted by tao
Look at my post. By Civ 3 standards, the silk area is another continent I am in strong favor of going there first to grab the silk. We might go for the island afterwards.

We need to decide this. Technically, its not an island which means we need to settle elsewhere, and fast.

Originally posted by tao
Definitely we need a harbor. My mistake on the aquaeduct; it is not needed; sorry.

I'm on it.

Yes, I am the one who built the grassland and mined in the tundra while in despotism. ;) Although I did waste turns here, there is a side benefit. Once we enter advanced governemnts, production is immediate, not having to wait for construction. Of course, the critical turns for early game were lost. :(

I do not know why Kiev was on governor, must be activated in the preferences, didn't catch it.

Preturn thoughts: I feel we really need to begin settling another island. Yes, this may mean sacrificing some important decisions at the moment, but we must meet the aims set up for the game. I'll purchase the workers from England - preturn. Also, will not Shatung flip to us in the future?

I'll be playing my turns late tonight. We're hosting a rather large wrestling tournament today and tomorrow.

Middle Age Wonder Strategy

Okay, let me try to set a wonder strategy:

We don't want Sun Tzu or Leo, because we do not have enough cities.
We don't want Bach's or Shakespeare, because we don't want to invest in non-essential techs.
We let go HGardens and go for Sistine in Moscow, because it has global effect and will keep our few big cities happy; probably we should switch market to cathedral.

We want a super science city in St.P. We do this by going for Colossus, Copernicus, and Newton.
After Colossus, we build (probably hurry partially, if we have the cash) a cathedral to keep the citizens happy. We need to push St.P to its limit by irrigating 2-3 grasland tiles (a job for the English workes) and afterwards mine the hills as necessary.
We will prebuild each time with palace, because the race will be tight when the ai's cascade thru Sun Tzu, etc.
We might be able to sqeeze in marketplace and/or university, if we have the cash to hurry them; marketplace only, if we get at least 3 lux by trading.

The ai cities currently are weak, compared to St.P and Moscow, because of our GA. We have to keep these two as top producing cities of the world. Only rival currently is Beijing, which looks very strong.

We have to keep track of ai wonder production (which, when, where).

Comments welcome.

Dojoboy, I obviously agree that we're better off going after the Colossus first, but also feel that following with the HG is a good idea. If we do this, you may want to further mine St. Petersburg as it grows in size.

This leads us to a Middle Ages wonder strategy. If St. Petersburg has the Colossus, then I would make the two science wonders priorities for this city, and prebuild there. I would also shoot for the Chapel, in St. Petersburg if possible, although this may bump into the HG build (I would take the Chapel over the HG, as it lasts for the duration). It's tempting to build the Chapel elsewhere, but if we do so, the prebuild should probably start now. The problem is that we only have five cities, one of which is not worth much yet, and we have so many priorities. If we miss the Chapel, then it's worth immediately researching music theory and going for the Cathedral. All of the other Middle Ages wonders won't help us much... maybe Smith's, much later, if we have shields to burn somewhere.

As Dojoboy notes, further expansion is our first priority at this point... ideally somewhere big enough to build a FP. As to where: I would guess that the silk area does count as part of our continent, as land units can reach it, and ships can't cross the isthmus. If I have time today, will test it by building a city there, and Sun Tzu back home. If I complete it in time, I will both post the results and e-mail you both.

I agree that galleys should always move manually and explore, and that we are a long way from being able to conquer significant land. However, this remains an expansion option for down the road, as we could build knights and ally with either China or India against the other, for example.

If Shantung flips, I think our rules would force us to abandon it, or another continental city.

If Dojoboy is playing late tonight, then I will play tomorrow morning, so that Tao can finish his next turn before he leaves on holiday. This means that there will be very limited time for consultation before I move. I will post my intent after studying Dojoboy's move, and will check for replies as long as possible, but if time is of the essence for Tao, then that will be my priority. Tao, if you can give me a rough deadline, it may allow me to wait and consult longer before having to finish my turn.

Originally posted by Txurce ]Dojoboy, I obviously agree that we're better off going after the Colossus first, but also feel that following with the HG is a good idea. If we do this, you may want to further mine St. Petersburg as it grows in size.
Colossus will finish in 2 turns. Regrettably as our GA ends, our production will go back to normal.

This leads us to a Middle Ages wonder strategy. If St. Petersburg has the Colossus, then I would make the two science wonders priorities for this city, and prebuild there. I would also shoot for the Chapel, in St. Petersburg if possible, although this may bump into the HG build (I would take the Chapel over the HG, as it lasts for the duration). It's tempting to build the Chapel elsewhere, but if we do so, the prebuild should probably start now.

See my previous post; probably we both wrote our comments concurrently.
If Shantung flips, I think our rules would force us to abandon it, or another continental city.
We could simply refuse the flip, :) which is what I suggest. If we are attacked by Germany, we should ally with China and India. As long as our defense in Kiew is stronger, Germany might go for Shantung or Hyderabad. Optimal sceanario: Germany captures, we recapture and donate to original owner. Germany captures again, this time razing it, and India/China will be really mad at them. :D

Tao, if you can give me a rough deadline, it may allow me to wait and consult longer before having to finish my turn.
If I get the game by 6pm German time on Saturday, I can play it with sufficient care. 8pm is drop dead line :)

Tao, oddly, when I looked at this thread earlier, only the title was visible for your Middle Ages strategy post; I assumed you were saying we should work on one. Now, of course, I can read the whole thing. Anyway, that explains my basically duplicating what you wrote. Clearly we are on the same track.

I like the idea of refusing a flip if Germany is still dangerous at the time; if Germany is ever neutralized, I would prefer to abandon Shantung, and join our borders.

Since Dojoboy is playing late tonight, I probably won't get a chance to play mine at the same time, although I will post a proposed strategy before going to bed. I will then need to complete the game between 9am and 11am tomorrow morning. I should be able to do this, but again, dialogue will likely be limited, so let's try to get comments in early my time.

Given your schedule, Tao, I will have to complete my turn

I tested to see if the spices are part of our continent by building Sun Tzu, and the city by the spices sprung a barracks.

Originally posted by Txurce
I tested to see if the spices are part of our continent by building Sun Tzu, and the city by the spices sprung a barracks.

:(

Okay, you guys gave me a great deal to think about. I hope my turns helped place us closer to the goal. I opted for Colossus then switched to HG. The AI have begun building Sun Tzu & HG. Everyone is polite toward us except Japan. They built a city (Yokohama) west of Moscow. Ever since, they've been annoyed. I even tried toa's approach w/ 1 gpt, but no luck. Germany became cautious toward us and again the 1 gpt failed. However, once Germany had a tech we didn't, Bismarck became polite again. Also, I often gave away world map to other civs for diplomacy considerations, these interactions are not noted in my outline. Well, let me outline my turns then I'll recap and offer considerations.

* Traded for English workers before my turns for wm & 50 g

70 BC - Minsk builds settler, begins galley; send galley to pick up settler/escort for northern island; bought German worker for 28 gold.

50 BC - Colossus built in St-P, begin HG; Kiev builds warrior, begin spearman (defenses).

[Japan builds Yokohama west of Moscow, becomes annoyed w/ us; GA ends; GL gives Republic]

30 BC - Revolution for Republic (not much in discussion on this topic, hedged our luck on the short anarchy, but wanted to increase production); give Germany 1 gpt to increase their attitude = no change, stays cautious.

10 BC to10 AD - Maintenance.

30 AD - Republic established (anarchy = 3 turns).

50 AD - Gave Japan 1 gpt, remains annoyed.

70 to 110 AD - Maintenance.

130 AD - Minsk builds galley (ferry second settler to other galley for at-sea transfer), begin harbor.

150 AD - Moscow builds marketplace, begins cathedral.

170 AD - Kiev builds spearman, begins marketplace; Odessa founded on northern island (nicknamed Odessa Island).

[Japan begins HG; Germany still cautious]

190 AD - Transfer settler near Hamburg, heading for Odessa Island.

[India DoW on China; England begins ST; China begins HG]

210 AD - Maintenance.

230 AD - GL gives Feudalsim.

250 AD - [England begins HG & India begins ST and HG]

260 AD - Gave wm to Germany, but was polite - probably because Germany has Theology and we do not.

[China begins ST; India reassigns HG]

270 AD - St. Petersburg falls into disorder (cathedral would've been nice).

[England reassigns ST; Germany begins ST]

280 AD - Rushed temple in Smolensk re: need border expansion to encompass iron.

[England & Germany sign Peace Treaty; England reassigns HG]

290 AD - Maintenance.

Summary: We still do not have a trade route (land or sea), but Minsk is 3 turns from completing harbor. We are 23 turns from HG in St. Petersburg, moving a worker to mine cuts the turns by 4; however, tis places the city in a food shortage = not woth it, few turns from growth. A granary would've been nice here now. Germany has Theology but is not building Sistine. We will probably get Theology from the GL soon, allowing us to switch from cathedral in Moscow. However, we probably should rush the cathedral now and start something for a switch once Theology is secured. I checked around for workers to buy at the end of my turns but currently none available. With India and China at war, they may have some in their capitals soon. Last thing, there is a settler in the galley off the northwest coast of Odessa Island. I was going to sail around to check out the southern portion. I thought I'd allow the next player to place the city. Well, I'll post this now and add more later. Good luck, Txurce! Tao, I think we'll get it to you in time.

Mainland (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/mainland.jpg)

Odessa Island (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/odessaisland.jpg)

Save Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-2,290AD-SAV.zip)

Originally posted by Txurce
I tested to see if the spices are part of our continent by building Sun Tzu, and the city by the spices sprung a barracks.

Bad. I remember a forum thread telling otherwise about "loosely connected" continents. Maybe it was fixed in a patch or is map-dependent. Thanks for the testing effort.

Some fast observations:
With all the cash, you should have rushed the harbor a long time ago and trade techs for luxury.
There is an unnecessary entertainer in Kiew: very bad. You should have mined before connecting the 3rd incense.
You should have hurried Smolensk's temple. The road to Smolesk should have gone thru the forrest, not over the hill. The worker building a road near Smolensk is very bad. We need a mine and road on the iron, then on the other hill.
The workers near St.P are useless, as long as St.P can't grow. They should have worked on Smolensk.
Minsk will fall in disorder next turn.

Txurce. I put my hope in you to play a great turn and make life easy for me. ;)

Originally posted by tao
Some fast observations:
With all the cash, you should have rushed the harbor a long time ago and trade techs for luxury.
There is an unnecessary entertainer in Kiew: very bad. You should have mined before connecting the 3rd incense.
You should have hurried Smolensk's temple. The road to Smolesk should have gone thru the forrest, not over the hill. The worker building a road near Smolensk is very bad. We need a mine and road on the iron, then on the other hill.
The workers near St.P are useless, as long as St.P can't grow. They should have worked on Smolensk.
Minsk will fall in disorder next turn.

Txurce. I put my hope in you to play a great turn and make life easy for me. ;)

Perhaps, I should have rushed those structures, but I generally do not think about turn-advantage constantly. In regards to roads through forrests, I need you to explain why. Simply saying "you should" doesn't help me understand your reasoning and makes it difficullt to consider how you think while I play my turns. There should be a road to the iron already. The workers are trying to link up the game near Smolensk. Tao, your knowledge of detail exceeds mine.

Originally posted by dojoboy
Simply saying "you should" doesn't help me understand your reasoning and makes it difficullt to consider how you think while I play my turns. There should be a road to the iron already. The workers are trying to link up the game near Smolensk. Tao, your knowledge of detail exceeds mine.
You are right, my post was too terse.
Smolensk has a bad food situation: 3 each from the game, 1 each from 2 hills, 2 from center. It is a production, not a growth citiy. Building roads adds commerce to worthless tundra: it remains worthless. Likewise, it is low priority to build road on game, since it does not increase shield.
The road thru forest would have delivered 1/2/2 f/s/c, road over hill only 1/1/2 AND this hill will never be in our productive city range, hence wasted.

Dojoboy, we are comfortably in republic, are primed to build a happiness wonder, and - most importantly, given how little territory is available - Odessa island promises to hold any where from three to five cities. (I think in this case we should squeeze in as many as possible.) Good work getting us here.

Here are our goals, as I see them:

Colonize Odessa island. Accomplishing this, followed by a FP, will give us a second industrial core, and a realistic shot at winning the game. (I wish we could have joined India in wiping out China, but their war came too soon.) I will rush a harbor in Minsk, then go back to building settlers here until the island is fully colonized.

Switch from the HG to the Chapel in St. Petersburg, if you both agree. The SC is more powerful, and I don't think we can afford to have two of our cities working on wonders at this point. Afterward, rush a granary, marketplace, and cathedral in St. Petersburg, preparing it for the race to build both science wonders.

Build barracks and horsemen, which will upgrade to knights as soon as chivalry is discovered. Our civ is small enough that several knights could defend most of it - especially if the only danger is from one location: the Germans. I think we're better off building a barracks in Smolensk before a spearman. (By the way, the road to Smolensk would have been built more quickly through the forest, especially if you chopped down the forest first.)

On the same note, I will divide our warriors between Odessa and Kiev. We don't need them to garrison anymore, and in Kiev they could be converted to swordsmen overnight if the Germans attack.

Raise the luxury rate, and get rid of the entertainers. We need to raise our population as quickly as possible.

The workers in St. Petersburg will switch to Minsk for the time being. Smolensk is also a priority; we can chop down its forests, and then develop the game once its borders expand.

Let me know what you think, and I'll start my turn tomorrow morning.

I just finished Christmas shopping and now have time to give you (just Txurce and dojoboy, or is anybody else reading this rapidly growing thread?) some more of my humble thinking. ;)

Preface: I started Civ 3, which was my first computer game at all, in September. In the 3 months hence, I clawed my way up from chieftain to emperor in about 2 dozen games. And I did not loose a single one of them. :D And I very much want to keep it at this. :D :D
By the way, the civfanatics site and the forums were an indispensable reference in this "achievement".

General comment: I do not like very much early wars, unless they are really necessary. I prefer to build a strong civ, being able to enter a war with utter confidence of success. I very much look to acquire luxury resources, because resource = happiness = growth = science = power = victory.

On djb2: I played partially into dojoboys turn, but with a completely different approach. I want happiness! I got Hgarden instead of Colossus, I spend all money on hurrying harbor in Minsk, cathedral in Moscow, temple and barracks in Smolensk. I traded techs for 3 luxuries. Everybody is polite towards me. My people are happy. I switched to republic with 1 turn of anarchy (yeah! happiness always helps). 3 markets are under construction, and I am very confident for this approach.
But of course, succession games mix different attitudes and maybe we come out ahead with another strategy also.

Txurce: your turn!

Originally posted by Txurce
Smolensk is also a priority; we can chop down its forests, and then develop the game once its borders expand.
Let me know what you think, and I'll start my turn tomorrow morning.I agree: Smolensk is a priority. I do not agree on chopping the forests, because
Tundra with forrest = 1/2/0
Tundra without forrest = 1/0/0
Tundra with road and mine = 1/1/1
Tundra with forest and road = 1/2/1
Therefore: if we have spare worker turns (not soom, I suppose) we can plant additional forrest and chop it to get 10 shields (works only once for each tile).

Switch from the HG to the Chapel in St. Petersburg, if you both agree. The SC is more powerful, and I don't think we can afford to have two of our cities working on wonders at this point. Afterward, rush a granary, marketplace, and cathedral in St. Petersburg, preparing it for the race to build both science wonders.
I would probably hurry the cathedral and start prebuild for Copernicus; maybe to early and we can put in market? Decide on the fly.
Moscow has a wasteful entertainer. Micromanage! I would like to go for HGarden in Moscow, but we will not get, I suppose.
Sun Tzu is a 600 shield wonder; its cascade will not effect HGarden, but Beijing is a top contender on HGarden and I worry, that it will finish first. I personally don't think St.P can finish Chapel plus Copernicus, because Sun Tzu cascade will kick in. Therefore I would go for Chapel in Moscow.

Tao, your learning curve is really impressive. At this point I win over half of my deity games (accepting every starting position), and haven't lost any game in 2002, but I lost every game I played until I reached monarch! Your approach is very sound, and played well, ought to keep your winning streak going. It can even work on deity, although most of the time an early war is required to expand at that level. (I did win one deity game with no ancient-era war, and barely any fighting at all.) But we'll leave discussion of the benefits of early fighting for another day, since I have a turn to play in a very limited amount of time.

I'll proceed as above, with the following adjustments, per your suggestions:

1. Go for SC in Moscow, which means further mining of its tiles.
2. Cathedral and maybe a market in St. Petersburg, then the Copernicus prebuild.
3. No Smolensk forests cut down unless we have workers to spare.

We won't be able to accomplish everything I outlined, of course, but let's see how fart we get.

290: Luxury tax raised to 20%, all entertainers put to work. Harbor rushed in Minsk. Cathedral rushed in Moscow. Switch St. Petersburg to cathedral. Adjust scouts.

300: Beijing builds HG. Disease in Kiev - we will soon start to cut down jungle. Moscow starts SC. Trade India spices for dyes and ivory, and Japan republic for incense, 21 gold, WM. Everyone else either has no trade route, or has nothing to offer. Luxuries set at zero.

310: Germans start SC.

320: Sevastopol founded on our island's western tip; there's room for two more cities.

330: Luxuries raised to 10% to keep Moscow celebrating.

340: St. Petersburg begins its wonder prebuild. Smolensk expands - it's now worth rushing a barracks and start to build horsemen.

350: Germany demands and receives 38 gold and WM.

380: A worker joins Moscow to speed the SC build.

390: Luxuries raised to 20% to keep both Moscow and St. Petersburg celebrating.

410: The Library gives us engineering.

420: Rush a settler in Minsk so galley can sail north with two settlers aboard.

430: Minsk starts a barracks. Defense is our third high priority.

450: The war between India and China ends. Tlibisi is founded on our island. The Library gives us education. We start to research astronomy at the only viable rate: 40 turns!

460: Japan starts to build the SC. Trade England education for chivalry, 3 gold and a WM.

470: Upgrade two horsemen to knights.

Summary:

We should have no problem getting Copernicus in St. Petersburg, but may need to trade for invention in order to keep the prebuild going. It's worth considering joining one of the slower workers to Moscow.

Our northernmost galley has two settlers. One can found a fourth and final city on our island. The other could colonize the available territory (near the iron?) on India and China's continent. I think the Chinese area of that continent is our best bet for the third expansion phase. Another alternative is to conquer the Iroquois island with three cities. We could also build a city on the island with one Indian city, but isolated settlements seem pointless.

Development of our island hinges on building the FP. I suggest that we rush what is needed - a temple and a courthouse? - then bite the bullet and start building it. I held off rushing anything there, so Tao could decide.

Our military will become effective as a defensive force some time during Tao's turn. We now have two knights, two more being built, and Minsk finishing its barracks. However, I suggest that Minsk focus on more settlers if needed, and workers as well, before starting a knight.

It may be a good idea to raise the luxury rate top 30%, now that Moscow is so big. We can afford it.

Our maps are up to date.

Good luck, Tao!

Originally posted by Txurce


Our northernmost galley has two settlers. One can found a fourth and final city on our island. The other could colonize the available territory (near the iron?) on India and China's continent. I think the Chinese area of that continent is our best bet for the third expansion phase. Another alternative is to conquer the Iroquois island with three cities. We could also build a city on the island with one Indian city, but isolated settlements seem pointless.



Txurce, sounds like a productive set of turns. Can you post a pic that includes the possible expansion sites. With our galleys (2 or 3?), we could land six knights and probably take the three Iroquois settlements (we should make care not to leave our core cities undefended in case of an Iroquois alliance). Settling near the Chinese may be the best bet, but it forces us to consider them in diplomacy. I like the idea of having two islands to ourselves, making defense much easier. At least on our mainland, we should be able to make alliances in case of war w/ any of our resident civs.

Dojoboy, I just switched to an iBook with OS 10.2.3, and while Civ3 runs faster than before, my old Graphic Converter software no longer works. I have been able to take pictures which appear on my desktop, and export them as jpg files, but have yet to figure out how to reduce them so one image... let alone multiple ones, as you sometimes post... can fit.

When I download GraphicConverter 4.5 for OSX, I get an .img file on my desktop, which I don't know how to open. I then downloaded a PDFshrink utility, but this .dmg file also sits on my desktop, without my knowing how to open it.

I'll keep trying to figure it out on my own (and maybe try to upload them to the server as well). As soon as I find a way to post pictures, I'll reply in detail.

Preturn considerations:

Wouldn't it have been better to hurry in between a market in St.P for happiness? I don't know. For settling, I prefer the Indian/China continent, because it is gives us much expansion room. We might even -- in the distant future -- move our FP to it. We can grab iron, horses and in the future ivory and dyes.

hit return

480 zzz

490 trade incense, wm 5g from Japan for spices; join worker to Moscow 20 turns to chapel
trade dyes, ivory wm from India for spices, wm 3gpt

500 create scientist in Kiew against unhappiness; set research to 0

510 hurry temple in Odessa, worker in Tblisi

520 Odessa builds temple, starts courthouse, Tblisi builds worker starts barracks, Sewastopol build spear, starts harbor

530 England start Chapel in Hastings; build Swerlowsk as 4th city on our island; hurry courthouse for 316 ouch

540 Odessa starts FP

550 zzz

560 Smolensk builds knight starts next, Iroques start Sun Tzu in Salamanca; found Yakutsk on India/China continent start pike

570, 580 zzz

590 Iro start Chapel in Grand River

600 zzz

610 hurry harbor in Sewastopol to get happiness and reduce corruption

620 Minsk builds knight starts market; Sewastopol finishes harbor starts worker; redistribute tiles between Sewastopol and Odessa; double FB built rate (now 2sh/t ;) ); switch Kiew knight to courthouse

630 Moscow's culture radius grows; good; hurry worker in Sewastopol

640 Sewastopol builds worker starts archer; England, Germany, India and China have invention; Chinese worker intrudes towards Kiew? to irrigate? I don't like it, but ask him to leave

650 Smolensk builds knight starts pike; Chinese worker moves on??? block water access with spear;
everybody but Iroques (and us) has invention; Bismark will trade for 50+15/t, Toku for 44+14/t; don't trade yet; Leo is not for us; instead hurry pike in Yakutsk and start temple next turn

660 uh oh we we are f***d. Berlin finishes Sun Tzu - there goes our pre-build; everybody switches to Leo; we have the following options:
a) trade for invention; start Leo; or
b) switch St.P to Forbidden Palace, then Palace; repeat if necessary
Research astronomy as fast as possible, which we can't afford; might as well stay at 1 scientist; should hurry library after Chapel and pray that it helps;
India sells invention for 38g+13gpt;
China offers invention, 64g, 2gpt for our only horses; we could switch Kiew, Minsk, Smolensk to knight and do this deal afterwards

I tend toward the China deal alternative but am open to suggestions; will sleep it over until tomorrow morning

Note 1: we must not irrigate towards Shantung; currently they cannot grow because of food 8
Note2 : I traded maps every turn, usually with a light (3-6 g) global surplus; in map trading, I rotated the starting civ, in order not to annoy anybody; whenever our galleys explored new tiles, most of the the other civs were willing to pay wm+1 or even 2 for wm.

Quick reply --- I like the deal w/ China as well. Especially since we have a vulnerable settlement near them, keep good relationship. We can't lose the prebuild. Nice note on Shatung. ;)

tao, can you post a pic of Odessa Island and the new settlement near China?

Tao, I think trading China for invention is our best alternative as well. Because it will cost us any new knight building for the next 20 turns, you may want to switch from a pikeman to a knight in Smolensk.

A moderate criticism: the location of Yakutsk on the Indian continent seems pointless. I would have built it in between the two Chinese cities, where it's not only much more productive, but also less likely to flip, and in the midst of two isolated cities we could attack pretty soon (four knights ought to do it, along with an alliance with India; I would upgrade the galleys to caravels first, and bring along a settler and a spearman).

Even if we don't declare war against the Chinese, I would still build a settler in Minsk once the market is finished, and found a city between the Chinese ones, before their borders expand and make it impossible.

On a lesser note, we have enough units in Kiev to completely bottle up the Chinese worker if he won't leave. In the meantime, he'll be irrigating for us!

And I agree that, despite the obvious limitations of five productive cities, two of which have been historically tied up building wonders, we need to start building libraries.

Dojoboy, below is a map that shows the relevant section of the Indian continent in 660. Yakutsk is to the north. As you can see, it would be very easy to take the two Chinese cities just below, if we had an alliance with India. The Indians would cut off any Chinese reinforcements, since they would have to pass by the Indian capital. The reality is that if we also signed an RoP with India, China would probably get reduced to vassal status, and we could get all five cities allowed to us on this continent, conquering three or four and maybe building one.

This could give us as many as 14 cities. It's worth considering, however, that we limit ourselves to 13, with the future intent of militarily cherrypicking a couple of coastal cities with either luxury or strategic resources.

You are right in noting the disadvantage of being having a fairly corrupt third of our smallish civ on the home continent of one of the leading civs. Fortunately, the Indians are pretty benign, and we would be starting as allies. The key would be to have airports built and ready for troop transfers once the modern era begins, and the Indians possibly turn belligerent.

Another advantageous place to expand is on the Iroquois' western coast, which is close enough to Moscow to not be totally corrupt. The problem here, of course, is that the Iroquois are big, and it's their home continent, so even an alliance wouldn't help us much.

The downside to taking either the Indians' or the Iroquois' small islands is that they would be totally corrupt, and total only three cities. It might not be worth the effort, even though both should be easy to take, and the capture of three cities would be enough to lead either civ to agree to peace.

Originally posted by Txurce
As you can see, it would be very easy to take the two Chinese cities just below, if we had an alliance with India. The Indians would cut off any Chinese reinforcements, since they would have to pass by the Indian capital. The reality is that if we also signed an RoP with India, China would probably get reduced to vassal status, and we could get all five cities allowed to us on this continent, conquering three or four and maybe building one.

This could give us as many as 14 cities. It's worth considering, however, that we limit ourselves to 13, with the future intent of militarily cherrypicking a couple of coastal cities with either luxury or strategic resources.



This sounds like the better option. What do you think tao? I wonder if tao could get a settler placed between the two Chinese cities? We're pretty close to meeting our pre-set conditions, which would then allow us to focus on science and defense. This, along with tao's penchant for diplomacy, we may very well win the s/r. :goodjob:

Txurce: I accept your critizism, because I did not even ponder the location you suggested. Thinking about it, I still might have chosen the northern one. I think, we should build/hurry a temple in Yakutsk and might even get the horses. And we are a looong way from Delhi and Beijing, reducing the chance of culture flip. Still: your suggested position is still available, and I suppose dojoboy will go for it. I would really hate a war with China, because Germany might go for us, if our homeland is too weak.

660 continued: I trade invention, 64g, 2gpt from China for horses. Switch Smolensk to knight before that. I trust on China to keep the deal; to prevent them from getting irrigation to Shatung, I block the other tile with a regular warrior.

670 France switches Chartres from Sun Tzu to Leo, England swithces Hastings from Chapel to Leo, London from Sun Tzu to Chapel; India switches Lahore to Leo, starts Chapel in Delhi
map trading round- pay 1g to Bismark, rake in 4g from others; India has horses to sell, but too expensive

680 map trading; +3g

Thus ends my turn; Moscow will finish Chapel should do library; scientist is working in Minsk; once the mines are build on our island, 1 worker should probably be joined to Odessa to bring it to size 6 and then we have to kick it into wltkd to speed our FP; I suggest library in Minsk after courthouse; we have to get navigation.
We have to keep our lux deals going!

Map trading every round is tedious, but keeps good relatiions and gives about 3-4 every turn. It would be great if you two do it also, since you have all the time for your turns. I will hit home on the 27th for a few hours only; not sure, whether I can play. Can do my round on the 29th.

I wish you and everybody else dropping by this threat a Merry Christmas! :santa:

saved game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-2_Catherine,_680AD.SAV)

tao

Tao, very solid turn, although some day I would like to know why the Yakutsk site has any value whatsoever. (I would accept the argument that no site on this continent has any value, period, although this would change slightly once we build the FP.)

I am also curious as to why we would need navigation. I don't think I've ever researched it in my life. For Magellan's? Galleons? Why not wait until someone else builds it? My strategy is always to go for the techs which are going to help me win via my chosen method. Since in this case it's the space race, I would beeline for the ToG, and then move on to steam power.

All of the suggestions for Odessa and Minsk make sense to me.

We could build one or two cities in the unclaimed territory south of Yakutsk, regardless of whether we go to war with China. One likely site is inland, on the river; the other a bit south of there, on the coast.

Now as to war: if we ally with India, the only threat is leaving ourselves exposed to a sneak attack from the historically treacherous Civ3 Bismarck. There are two ways to deal with this: one is to make sure we can defend ourselves; the other is to ally with Germany as well. If we do the latter, then we better raze Shantung before the Germans get there. That said, there is no pressing need to take those Chinese cities right away.

What do you think, Dojoboy? And just as importantly, do you have a working copy of Tao's save? I get printed gibberish when I try to open his save, even thoughwe have the same OS. And the file he emailed us seems to be corrupt (as was one of the two he emailed earlier). Let me know which one worked for you, if any, and any thoughts you may have as to why I'm having a problemwith it. Thanks.

Originally posted by Txurce
Tao, very solid turn, although some day I would like to know why the Yakutsk site has any value whatsoever. (I would accept the argument that no site on this continent has any value, period, although this would change slightly once we build the FP.)
I hoped for iron, horses, later ivory.
I am also curious as to why we would need navigation. I don't think I've ever researched it in my life. For Magellan's? Galleons? Why not wait until someone else builds it? My strategy is always to go for the techs which are going to help me win via my chosen method. Since in this case it's the space race, I would beeline for the ToG, and then move on to steam power.
So am I ;) I wanted to say astronomy, and I suppose the AIs go for gunpowder first. Otherwise I completely agree with your research goals.
What do you think, Dojoboy? And just as importantly, do you have a working copy of Tao's save? I get printed gibberish when I try to open his save, even thoughwe have the same OS. And the file he emailed us seems to be corrupt (as was one of the two he emailed earlier). Let me know which one worked for you, if any, and any thoughts you may have as to why I'm having a problemwith it. Thanks.
When I click with "save as" on the link, it works. I also pmed a stuffed copy to both of you. Hope it works!

I tried downloading directly from the uploads3 page, but I still received a page of "gibberish." :confused:

Well, I'm away from my mac Monday (23th) through Wednesday (25th). It looks like we're idle until the 29th, when we can work to get tao's save running.

Happy Holidays!!! :santa: :jesus: :santa:

Txurce, I will not be able to try and fix tao's save until Christmas night, late. So, hopefully I'll get started on my turns sometime Thursday.

I can't reproduce the problems you people have. I just downloaded the saved file on both my MacOS X 10.2.3 and my MacOS 9.2.2 machine and opened it without problems. Here is how I did it:

Downloading
with Mozilla ctrl-click on the link selecting "Save Link Target As..."
with IE ctrl-click on the link selecting "Download Link to Disk"

Decoding
for MacOS 9.x:
use the "More File Info CMM Plug-in" by Hide Itoh to set type and creator in one easy step to GAMs/Civ3

for MacOS X:
ctrl-click on the file and set "open with..." to Civilization III

This works for me all the times. :goodjob:

tao, I'm using IE and when I click your save game link, I get the below pic. Question: Is your uploaded save a .Sav or .Sav.zip? I believe only .Sav.zip will work through a download.

Pic of saved game after clicking tao's link. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/wierdsave.jpg)

tao, email me a non-zipped save.

I updated my previous post to include how to do it with IE. No problem! I just tried it, and it works. And it is a .sav file.

PS: On the 22nd, I mailed you both a .Sav and a .Sav.sit version.

It opened! Good work, tao! Downloading was never a problem. Opening it was, but it opened this time. I trashed your email on the 22nd once I placed the saves in my save folder. It was those two anyway that were "corrupt." Oh well, I'll read up on your turns and review Txurce's comments, and I'll play my turns tonight. :goodjob:

Russia pic (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/copernicus.jpg)

Save Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-2,880AD.SAV.zip)

I had to go back and review the latest comments on the game since our extended break. I tried to adhere to the feedback as much as possible, but some things occurred beyond my control. I did learn something this turn. I never realized you could trade your only resource. When you see a couple longbowmen, its because I thought we were seeing a bug referring knights. I checked around and noticed we were in a trade deal w/ China. They were getting our horses for 2 gpt. I canceled it so we could prepare an offensive. The reason why will be in the review of my turns. I think an opportunity for expansion is knocking on our door. Oh yeah, I traded/sold wm or gave wm every turn.

690 AD - Moscow builds SC, set to courthouse; Yakutsk flips to India and is accepted; Beijing builds LW; I switch St.P from Leonardo's to Palace.

700 AD - Kiev builds courthous, set to library; began using galley to explore uncharted waters for another island; China & France begin moving settler/escorts to our south.

710 AD - General Maintenance; set 2 Moscow workers to connecting gold; India cancels trade deal, renegotiate their two luxuries for our spice, wm, & 79 gold.

720 AD - General Maintenance.

730 AD - Smolensk builds knight, set to library; Sverdlovsk builds spearman, set to temple.

740 AD - Moscow builds courthouse, set to library; Minsk builds courthous, set to library; removed worker (made scientist) from St.P to slow down palace prebuild (instead of 1 turn before reaching astronomy, now 2 turns later).

750 AD - Kiev builds library, set to cathedral (SC); India decares war on China.

760 AD - Begin loading knights for possible offensive v. China; begin bringing galley on exploratory mission home.

770 AD - Moscow builds library, set to university.

780 AD - Smolensk builds library, set to longbowmen (here is where I noticed our inability to build knights - missed the mention of this trade deal and didn't notice it in the diplomacy screen).

790 AD - Minsk builds library, set to aqueduct; Japan begins Copernicus's Observatory (CO).

800 AD - England begins CO (offers astronomy for 480 gold - deny).

810 AD - Germany offers astronomy for 380 gold - deny.

820 AD - Smolensk builds longbowmen, set to same.

830 AD - China offers alliance v. India and RoP - deny; cancel horse deal to China for 2 gpt.

840 AD - France & Germany begins CO.

850 AD - Researched astronomy, palace in St.P switched to CO (scientist put back to work - 10 turns from completion).

860 AD - Moscow builds longbowman, set to knight; Smolensk builds longbowmen, set to marketplace.

870 AD - General Maintenance.

880 AD - India begins JS Bach's; purchase gunpowder from France for 249 gold; purchase banking from India for 265 gold.

Comments: Currently researching Chemistry; war between India & China continues. India has captured Tsingtao only. This ay be a great opportunity for us to secure our third location, especially since China is without iron & horses. We have two galleys at Minsk, a third would be nice. Knights could ferry over fairly quickly - should secure an alliance w/ Germany (but what to offer them). China certainly has nothing to offer Germany or anyone else. St.P is 7 turns from completing CO. We seem to be shaping up well in regards to scientific/economic infrastructure in our cities. FP is about 48 turns from completion. I never joined a worker in Odessa. We should probably rush-build the necessary facilities in St.P and then start another palace prebuild. I'll read your replies and offer opinions ASAP.

Txurce, you're up!

PS - May I start the GOTM8 now? ;)

You may start GOTM8 now. :)

Some comments:
The China deal was invention plus 64g plus 2gpt from China for our horses.

You have still room to improve your usage of workers. Connecting the gold was useless, since it is outside Moscow's range. You should have build a road to the mined mountain instead. Or instead building the mine on the square finishing next turn.

Very bad: Odessa needed our utmost priority for FP building. You should have done micromanagement and reassigning tiles between Odessa and Swerdlowsk. You should have mined the hill near Odessa.

Very good to trade maps each turn; everybody is polite with us.

And some hints on what I would do the next round, but I'm sure Txurce has his own agenda:

I would research at 0%, because with 7 other civs, there will always be brokering opportunities; but this is my personal preference.

After buillding cathedrals, I would go for 5 banks to prepare for Wallstreet.

Building a new city on the China continent will happen, I suppose.

We should get Anyang from China, because it would give us 2 incense!

Originally posted by tao

You have still room to improve your usage of workers.

Very true.

Originally posted by tao
Connecting the gold was useless, since it is outside Moscow's range. You should have build a road to the mined mountain instead. Or instead building the mine on the square finishing next turn.

I thought as long as it was within the cultural borders it would be effective. Is this not true?

Originally posted by tao
Very bad: Odessa needed our utmost priority for FP building. You should have done micromanagement and reassigning tiles between Odessa and Swerdlowsk. You should have mined the hill near Odessa.

Well, Odessa was only a couple turns from grwoth when i started up. I was using the workers to build roads through the forests. Mines around Odessa would've been a good choice.

Originally posted by dojoboy
I thought as long as it was within the cultural borders it would be effective. Is this not true?
No! No! No! If you look at the city display, you see a "cross" of 5x5, 3 tiles wide and these 21 tiles are the limits a city's worker can labour on.

Well, Odessa was only a couple turns from grwoth when i started up. I was using the workers to build roads through the forests. Mines around Odessa would've been a good choice.

Looking at Odessa again: 1 entertainer would kick wltkd and give a huge productivity boost by reducing corruption. Txurce: I know you know what to do.:king:

What about expansion? Do we join an alliance w/ India v. China and capture 2 to 3 cities?

Originally posted by tao

No! No! No! If you look at the city display, you see a "cross" of 5x5, 3 tiles wide and these 21 tiles are the limits a city's worker can labour on.


I can't find anything to confirm what you're saying. I know the gold is not within the city radius, but it is within the cultural borders. My rational is as follows: If a civ gains the benefit of a strategic resource outside of the city radius, but within its cultural borders, when connected by a road, should it not gain the benefit of a bonus resource under the same conditions. For example, if you build a colony on a resource (bonus, luxury, or strategic) outside of your cultural border, you gain access; however, once your cultural borders expand to include said colony, it disappears. I've found nothing to recommend otherwise. If you have, please point me there.

Originally posted by dojoboy
I can't find anything to confirm what you're saying. I know the gold is not within the city radius, but it is within the cultural borders. My rational is as follows: If a civ gains the benefit of a strategic resource outside of the city radius, but within its cultural borders, when connected by a road, should it not gain the benefit of a bonus resource under the same conditions. For example, if you build a colony on a resource (bonus, luxury, or strategic) outside of your cultural border, you gain access; however, once your cultural borders expand to include said colony, it disappears. I've found nothing to recommend otherwise. If you have, please point me there.It may not be a flashy approach, but how about reading the manual? :) In my issue, it's page 55. Not quite as clear is it described in the CIVILOPEDIA under game concepts/city radius. Trust me, it is definitive!

Page 55 mentions nothing about bonus resources, but the answer is under Game Concepts/Bonus Resources Civilopedia), and you're right. They must be within the city radius, not cultural borders. I'm on my way = :grad:

Having been away from the game so long, coming back to it reminded me of just what a challenge we set for ourselves. Dojoboy has continued to advance us in the right direction; our cities are developing in a nicely balnced manner, and we are ready for our first (and probably last) war of expansion. Micromanagement for both gold and relations couldn't make more sense, and I'll sell maps every turn as well. Now as to the main issues:

Expansion: I can't think of a better place to significantly increase our city number than the area around the two northern Chinese cities. The Indo-Chinese War may be a golden opportunity to attack China with impunity, but it may be one that we didn't exploit fast enough. I hope to upgrade the galleys to caravels, then sail six knights halfway across the world before India takes those cities. A third caravel may follow with a settler and defensive units. I agree that Anyang is an irresistible target, but will save it for after the taking of the two mainland Chinese cities, as it will still be there. I would recommend that we stay on the lookout for future opportunities like Anyang; this sort of acquisition is probably what our future expansion should focus on.

Research: The AI is doubtlessly focusing on chemistry, and will probably beat us to it, so our alternative would be to research economics or navigation, and then trade. Since we're not going to build the wonders that these optional techs make possible, keeping research at zero for now makes a lot of sense. Being a tech broker is made easier by trading maps every turn anyway! I'll re-evaluate once we build CO. Because maximizing a science city is one of our longterm priorities, I would ideally like to rush a library and a university, then start a palace prebuild for Newton as soon as CO is finished.

Odessa Island: Building the FP as soon as possible is a top priority, and I will employ both wltkd and our workers to speed the process.

Infrastructure: A 10% luxury rate should be good enough - with an entertainer, it keeps Odessa celebrating and everybody else in good shape. This should give us enough gold to buy (and then sell) techs. After cathedrals, banks sound good to me. Wall Street will help us a lot.

Let me know your thoughts on my general plans. I hope to make my moves in the afternoon of 2 January, but may not get done until the next day.

I couldn't resist the temptation to play dojoboys turn in an unofficial side track over Christmas, and the results are really astonishing. You can accomplish or loose a lot in 20 turns by managing your cities.

If you look at Odessa (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb2_880_odessa.jpg), Forbidden Palace will come up in 14 instead of 41 turns.

If you look at St.Petersburg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb2_880_stp.jpg), Copernicus is finished and marketplace startet, instead of 7 turns to go on Copernicus.

This highlights, that even while many players may not like to spend effort on micromangement and worker assignment, it really is the way to win games on higher levels.:goodjob:

Originally posted by Txurce
Let me know your thoughts on my general plans. I hope to make my moves in the afternoon of 2 January, but may not get done until the next day. I fully agree on your general plans. Since dojoboy did not do it, is there still time to found our own city between the 2 Chinese ones? It would give us a home base with iron, and a place to have barracks. We can then ship knights, upgrade to cavalry, sign ROP with India, and wait till optimum time to attack.

Originally posted by Txurce


Let me know your thoughts on my general plans. I hope to make my moves in the afternoon of 2 January, but may not get done until the next day.

Sounds good. Are you interested in the two northern Chinese cities because they would be easier to capture?

I intend to build a city near the "Chinese" iron, but believe we can't wait for cavalry, as I'd bet that the Indians would take these cities first. These cities make more sense to me than the ones to the south, because they are isolated from the bulk of the Chinese cities by the Indian capital, so they should be impossible to reinforce, or recapture. The ones to the south would put pressure on us to keep shipping more troops over, which could put a strain on our longterm development. The second, equally important reason to strike here (and build an optimally placed city) is to secure not just a second source of iron, but a single source of gunpowder as well.

Originally posted by Txurce
I intend to build a city near the "Chinese" iron, but believe we can't wait for cavalry, as I'd bet that the Indians would take these cities first. I wanted to say -- maybe I was not clear enough -- that by founding our city "now", we can establish a basis with barracks, allowing to ship knights and upgrade once cavalry becomes available.

890: India takes Hangchow, heightening concern that the northern Chinese territories will be gone before we get there. As a result, Smolensk switches from a market to a settler, and Minsk rushes its aqueduct, then builds a caravel. The two galleys are upgraded to caravels, and loaded with three knights each.

The luxury rate is lowered to a still-effective 20%. Odessa works an extra mined tile, and is in wltkd. St. Petersburg adjusts to more quickly reach size 12. Moscow adjusts to use the mined mountain, and stay even at size 12. The continental workers will only road mine tiles; the island workers will cut trees.

900: The two caravels sail west. Moscow starts a bank.

910: The caravels head toward the Anyang strait. These waters are Chinese territory, which means that when we attack China, our trade route with India will be cut. The consequences are disastrous, since we will not only lose luxuries, but ruin our reputation. Our war strategy is consequently adjusted: the priority becomes the acquisition of Chinese luxuries, with a minimizing of loss of trade.

920: Tlibisi finishes its barracks and starts a temple. The AI researches navigation; it now is a toss-up whether we were better off researching chemistry. The luxury deal with India expires; because of the upcoming conflict, we do not renew it yet. Instead, luxuries are raised to 50%, keeping Odessa in wltkd.

930: Kiev starts a bank. The third galley sails west with a settler, knight and pikeman. The longbowmen and a knight mass outside Shantung (south of Kiev). The six knights land... by the gates of Anyang. War is declared against China. The sea route with India is broken, as expected. (There is no benefit to allying with India.)

940: Shantung falls, and is abandoned rather than given as a gift to another AI. Three knights take Anyang; the other three sail north for Macao. Anyang's harbor allows the two linked incense tiles to be traded immediately, and re-establishes a sea route with India. Incense is traded to India for ivory, 49 gold, and 5 gpt (India has no other luxuries to trade). Spices are traded to India for 16 gpt and a wm. The luxury trade with Japan is now strictly for gold: spices for 58 gold and 8 gpt. We are now richer, but one luxury short of our peacetime status. Annoyingly, Odessa's wltkd requires that the luxury rate remain at 50%.

950: St. Petersburg builds CO, and starts a library.

960: The settler and pikeman are transfered to a different caravel, speeding their journey. Three knights sail for Tatung, on the Iroquois mainland. (Our best chance of not losing the captured Chinese cities to culture flips is to eliminate the Chinese; these knights have nothing better to do for the moment.)

970: Anyang is starved down. A temple is rushed there. The knights land outside Tatung.

980: The knights take Tatung. The AI researches the printing press. St. Petersburg finishes a library; there's no rush to start a palace prebuild, so it starts a market.

990: The settler and pikeman land near the Indo-Chinese border, where the destruction of a Chinese city has left two dyes just waiting to be claimed. Moscow finishes its bank, and starts to crank out pikemen, so every mainland city has one defensive unit. A settler is rushed in Tatung, to build that original priority: a city near the "Chinese" iron.

1000: Three knights land above Macao. Smolensk finishes a market. Since it can't grow past size 6 for now, it starts on a bank, so Wall St. can be started sooner. Vladivostok is founded on the Chinese mainland, claiming both dyes. (A quirk I don't get: Vladivostok is linked by road to India, which trades by sea with us, yet the dye is officially unconnected to Russia.) The AI finally researches chemistry.

1010: Macao is taken... unfortunately, it is destroyed in the process. This patch east of the Indian north is bare for now. The AI researches economics.

1020: The treasury gathers funds to finance the rushing of a harbor in Vladivostok.

1030: A RoP agreement is signed with India to get the two returning knights from Macao to Vladivostok faster, as Chinese longbowmen are approaching.

1040: Kaifeng, the city on the Russian tundra, is destroyed. A harbor is hurried in Vladivostok. England and the Iroquois are now annoyed at Russia; the trading of wm has continued; they probably view Russia as more of a threat now.

1050: The harbor is completed, allowing us to cut the luxury rate all the way to 20%. The second dye is traded to France, along with 11 gold and 5 gpt, for chemistry. The Iroquois then trade navigation, pp, wm, and 20 gold for chemistry. (The caravels haven't been upgraded to galleons, but now could be.) Moscow finishes its pikeman allotment, and switches to knights.

1060: Three knights land outside Canton on the Chinese mainland, leaving Anyang and Tatung without garrisons. Novgorod is founded on the "Chinese" iron. Although linked to India, it is officially unconnected. India prepares to build a new city in this region, leaving dubious room for a second Russian settlement there.

1070: A fourth knight lands outside Canton, but the first three take the city, and its ivory. This luxury is traded to France for 25 gold and 11