Looking for 5 players to play as Korea (commercial and scientific)

All STD victory conditions enabled:

Standard Map

7 Random AI

Large Continents, Temperate, Normal conditions, 4 billion years

Here is the Start:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1start.JPG

Roster:

Hotrod0823
Rowain (after confirmation)
Unique Unit
Mystery13
Meldor
Borealis

Rounds will be 20 turns each then drop back to 10 turns.

New Variant: Ground troops may not attack without a bombardment attack first. This will include catapults, the Hwach'a , artillery and bombers.

Standard rules regarding 20 turns of peace, ROP rape, etc.

24 hours to post got it 48 hr to complete the turns.


Hotrod

Hot Rod: Can I jump in on this?
I've only been posting here (after a long time lurking) for a little while, but I have been more active over at Aployton (where I post as Robber Baron).
I am an experienced CivIII-er, and typically play Monarchy/Emporer level. But my micromanagement skills need refinement. (I need to get "Fanatical.")
By the way, for a sense of my strategic take on the Koreans, check out: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70497.

Sure this UU, your up 3rd okay??

I will check out your page at poly. I choose koreans for a change. I haven't seen any SG played with them , and I haven't played solo with them either. Your take on them should be very helpful.;).

Hotrod

Thanks! :cool:

Well hi there UU/RobberBaron!

I just saw your excellent post on Koreans at Apolyton, and have gotten into an interesting discussion on early deity strategies (a tangent to your article I'm afraid)

This game should be a good one. It's tempting for me actually, but I've been really wanting to play an aggressive Diety game with the Koreans, rather than Monarchy, and probably small rather than large.

I would encourage other lurkers to hop in!! There are some very solid players in this game, and I think it's going to be one where hotrod finds his desired 'mastery of Monarch' :)

I'll keep an eye on it anway... Good luck!
Charis

Thanks for the Encoragement. Played Monarch with Lee and in LK34 and it was over before it began. Want to see what a less aggressive civ can do in PTW. I am not sure, based on UU article, if this game will be a builder/space race type of game. We'll have to find out how the peaceful Koreans play out.

Hotrod

Just for the record, I have no problem playing a builder game. I figure with rigorous mm, any civ can launch a spaceship in almost any setting.

We'll have to see how it plays out!

Will start after we fill up the last slots

Hotrod

Hey Hotrod, count me in on this one.

I'm wondering if it's possible in your eyes, to add a bit of a variant to this one. There were a few really early games that focused on bombardment and taking cities with the UU. With the special cannon as our UU, what do you think about taking all cities with the help of that cannon? Just a thought/hope...I'll play either way.

If you need another player I will join.

Mystery and meldor you are both in. Sure any suggestions on variants is cool with me.

Once Rowain confirms I will play the first 20 and post. Between now and then add a variant flare to utilize the UU.

Hotrod

I just checked my PM's and Borealis would like to join as a sixth. If there are no objections I will be adding her as the last player.

Also, per Mystery's request cities may only be attacked by ground troups if a bombardment unit attacks first. That includes catapults the Hwach'a, artillery and bombers.

Any other request should be brought up now. I will start the game tomorrow night.

Hotrod

I have no problem with 6, and the bombardment rule sounds great...I guess we'll have to run for math...

I like the idea of a bombardment-oriented varient. It will, however, effectively make it impossible to take cities surrounded by rough terrain.

At leat until we get bombers :D!

It will be interesting for sure

Hotrod

Thanks for the spot :)

I'm in


Rowain

I'm looking forward to the Hot1 series! :)

Good luck!

-Griselda

Unique unit, there is nothing stopping you from building a road in enemy territory. Since you will have defensive units on the mountain, you may as well bring along some, er, siege engineers :)

:lol: - Looks like we are ready. I will play and post tonight

Hotrod

Jaxom, siege engineers, eh? Never tried that. Cool, a new tactic!
We could call them "Wang Sappers" -- sounds kind of kinky. ;)

Using sappers is a very strong technique, especially once rails come on line. You can use cav to capture a city, rail to and under your units, move defneders in and hurt units back to the nearest barracks. Combined with combet settlers it call roll an opposing civ in a few turns.

4000 BC (0): After realizing I screwed up and had accelerated production on (Hear Hommer voice in the the back ground) I restart the game with normal production and all the same settings. This is a new starting point. I move settler to the hills and will found Seoul next turn.

3950 BC (1): Found Seoul on the hill, it is on a river and on the coast. Start with a warrior. Begin researching Pottery at 90%.

3900 BC (2):

3850 BC (3):

3800 BC (4):

3750 BC (5):

3700 BC (6): Warrior completes start a barracks as a place holder for granary.

3650 BC (7): Warrior is heading NW away from the coastline.

3600 BC (8):

3550 BC (9):

3500 BC (10):

3450 BC (11): Culture expands.

3400 BC (12):

3350 BC (13):

3300 BC (14): Contact Mongols to the West. They have Pottery and Warrior code but won't offer any reasonable trades. Pottery is due next turn.

3250 BC (15): Learn Pottery start on Masonry. Change to Seoul to Granary.

3200 BC (16): More warrior movement.

3150 BC (17):

3100 BC (18):

3050 BC (19): See the outlines of a new Mongol city to the West.

3000 BC (20): Mongol warrior is heading toward Seoul, warrior heading back to the unattended capital. Due to grow to 3 in 3 turns, the warrior can serve as MP duty. Granary will finish in 2 turns.

Not much happened. Decided to research Masonry as a counter to the Mongols research.

Here is the Save:


http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_3000_BC.zip

Rowain: (up)
UU: - ON DECK
Mystery13
Meldor
Borealis
Hotrod

Originally posted by Charis in the RBD5 thread
- No city may be attacked on any round until artillery support has fired on the
town (catapult, cannon, artillery, radar artillery, cruise missile or any bombardment)
- The only exception is that Paratroopers do not require artillery support.
- Paratroopers are suggested to be made and used, and should pillage key supply
lines and special resources as a key part of their mission.
- Cities need artillery garrisons. For a captured city, one artillery unit must
remain as garrison. For a built city, an artillery unit should be produced or
imported (AFTER that city builds/gets an infantry defender)
- For cannon, artillery, radar art, a Musketman is required in the same square
to operate the equipment. (This goes for city garrison as well)
- Note that a Marine attacking a city after naval bombardment is another
option opened up nicely.

RBD5 - January 2002 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14518)

Now that was the early days :lol:. I haven't read the thread and don't intent to yet but any suggestions are welcome ;).

Any comments on Charis rules??

Hotrod

So, in all non-amphibious attacks, naval bombardment would not meet our conditions?

And, before catapults, we are not allowed to attack cities?

The world shall tremble before the mysterious dragon-fire of our Hwach'a! :evil:
(Or not.) :love:

The early days?!?! Now I feel old! :lol:
I had a real blast with that game - I had never used bombardment before that and learned its fearsome power!

If I'm allowed to comment on those rules...

- I wanted to see more paratrooper and marine action, but the game was in its last turns before they had an impact. Still... paratroopers landing in mountains behind enemy lines worked better than expected.
- We quickly dropped the city garrison rule. It got changed early-mid game to "must maintain one cat/cannon/artillery unit in the field for every town you have, or build more to reach this number immediately". We just didn't have the economy to BOTH have units sitting around unused at home and enough to romp around the map on offense
- The Musketeer requirement to fire the guns was a roleplaying element that let us have fun with the near useless French UU. Our stacks of doom were so powerful that Meers (as we called them) could take about any city

Your game's simpler rule of "must bombard a city somehow before attacking with troops" will be sufficient, I think.

If you guys have not seen this link, it's a MUST for fans of the Hwatch'a -- a short video clip of them in action! Quite a sight to see, I must say. Those puppies SHOULD get lethal bombardment :P The seungja looks cool too

Discussed at...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58092
Actual video link... :rocket:
http://chunghondang.com/movie/singijeon.mpg

Picture of Hwatch'a : http://apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1187387

Charis

Any bombardment was acceptable, as I recall. We did use catapults in our first war, which didn't occur until around the beginning of the middle ages. Also, the rules did change a bit over the course of the game, so I would suggest reading the whole thread. For instance, we found that having artillery required as garrison was pretty much silly -- we wound up tying up a whole bunch of gpt on units that basically couldn't be used, thus curtailing our ability to build an offensive force. We ultimately decided to change the rule to be "you must own at least as many artillery pieces as you have cities" but they didn't have to be garrisoned one per city. We did, however, keep the requirement that at least 1 Musketeer was needed in a stack to operate any ground-based artillery more advanced than catapults, as well as the requirement to bombard cities before attacking. I think we also kept a Musketeer around as ground crew for bombarding fighters and bombers.

I intended to have any bombardment unit work, I forgot things like ironclads, destroyers, battleships, missles or nukes and whatever else has a ranged attack. Personnally I think including them would be fine. It will help having "non-wheeled" units as part of the acceptable bombing teams.

Any bombing attack from any bombardment unit must occur before ground attacks.

Hotrod

@ UU: The specifics of the RBD5 game are not entirely applicable I just found that that game was played similiarly almost a year ago. I was unaware of that game when Mystery made the suggestion for a variant to stress the use of the Hwach'a. The additional requirements set forth by Charis in their game were specific to the French and that particular set of rules. I didn't intend that rule set to be the new set here.

Nice work Hotrod! That is exactly the game I was referring to, I just hadn't spent the time to go back and find it. That game was one of the many at the time that caused me to jump into the SG's.

I also agree with your all-encompassing rule as we definitely do not have the French variant at work here. Bombardment first, then capture. I really want to see the Korean artillery in action!

After the great hall had been framed and roofed, the tribe gathered at the ocean's edge. A feast had been prepared, to celebrate the founding of the village and offer sacrifices to the gods in thanks. Behind them, against the backdrop of the dark forests, the lodges they had built looked small and scattered.
Their young leader, Wang Kon, rose to speak.
Suddenly, a bright streak appeared in the night sky -- like a piece of fire, shooting across the firmament. The people murmered worriedly. Even Wang Kon seemed shaken, looking over to the circle of tribal eldars. One of them, a wizened old woman, rose.
"Do not be afraid," she said soothingly. "This is a great omen, from the dragons who rule the heavens. Your people will be mighty, Wang Kon. They shall rule the earth by raining fire and death on their enemies."


Hotrod:
I'm taking the liberty of attaching a partial screenshot, from your save:

Thanks Unique Unit. Hope the :smoke: hasn't started yet! :lol:

Hotrod

We might want to think about building an early wonder-city soon. Normally I avoid basing ancient era strategy on wonders. But for the Koreans, landing certain wonders (either by building them or capturing them) is necessary for triggering a Golden Age. Either Colossus (commercial) or the Great Library (scientific) or the Great Lighthouse (commercial) might be worthwhile (though perhaps only one of these, unless we want a despotic GA).
Just a thought. I'm open to different approaches.

We may learn the power of the internet!!! ;) I was thinking that colossus was an option when I moved to hill on the coast. I wouldn't stress that right off though, we may not have that much room to expand and the added requirements of using catapults will deter or at least slow any type of early war. I think that expansion is the key for now, hence the early granary. Lets see how it plays out.

Hotrod

20 turns till 2150BC

3000BC (0): Nothing to change :)

2950BC : Granary finished Settler orderedWarrior scouts north of Seoul and discovers Gems ; Lux to 10% to prevent riots.

2670BC (7): Meet India Ghandi has Warrior Code and Ceremonial we have nothing.

2630BC (8): Settler finished order Warrior; Lux to 0%;

2590BC (9): We get a skilled Warrior from a GH and see a lot of Dyes. Sent Warrior back to Seoul and switch Seoul to Settler.

2470BC (12): the Indian Warrior sleeps on the spot I want to Settle :mad:

2390BC (14): P'yongyang founded Warrior ordered; Science to 70% earns us 2 gpt :) Lux to 10%;

IT: Masonry learned start Mathe on minScience; Settler finished in Seoul next one ordered;

2350 (15): Masonry + Alphabet to Temujin for Wheel + CB + 6 gold; Masonry to Ghandi for Warrior Code and 1 gold; I decide to sent the Settler to the Dyes. Although this is far away if we get a monopol on them we will have big trading possibilities;

2270BC (17) A GH is deserted but next to it is a Barb camp;

2230BC (18): our Warrior misses some Artillery and therefore looses vs the Barb :(

2150 BC (20): End of my turns with an overview:


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT1-2150BC.jpg

and The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_2150_BC.zip)

Please settle our third city inmidst the Dyes the nextsettler can then fill the gap and our first ring.

Good Luck Unique :)

Rowain

Got it.

And just to weed out my own weed: on second thought, I think Great Lighthouse is expansionist, not commercial.

Hotrod
Rowain
Unique Unit <---- Up
Mystery13 (On Deck)
Meldor
Borealis

UU, the Great Lighthouse can trigger for both expansionist and commercial civs, according to the civilopedia. The following wonders can combine in various ways to get us a GA by the end of the Middle Ages:

Great Lighthouse and Great Library
Colossus and GL
Magellan's Voyage and GL
Magellan's Voyage and Newton's University
Smith's Trading Company and GL/NU

I rarely, if ever, get the Colossus on Monarch difficulty, as one of the industrious civs, usually Persia if they're around, builds it first. The GL is a chance if we get Literature first and could actually use it, as the PTW AI still neglects to research the tech at this level. (I assume/hope Emperor/Deity AI is smarter about this). Literature is also a good choice even if we go warmongering, as libraries are cheap, give culture, and boost our tech rate. Depending on how bloodthirsty we are, maybe we can pick it up as soon as we have the tech for a good attacking unit to accompany our catapults. :)

Just wondering... according to the F11 screen, who's our competition? Gandhi and Ghenghis have been mentioned, but there should be at least two more visible there.

Preturn: diplomatic rounds: India has nothing to offer, and no gold. Mongols have nothing either. Relations are polite.
I make one change, waking the warrior fortified in Seoul. We don’t need him for mp, and there’s a lot of scouting to be done.
Of course, barbs may come calling. Weed before I even run my first turn? We’ll see. Warrior-scout is sent south, to map out the bottom of our peninsula.

Warrior-scout finds more bonus grasslands to the south. We can definitely squeeze a city in here, creating later overlap with Seoul, but also drawing in three bonus grasslands. It’s close by, lush and productive land.
Worker finishes mine, starts roading tile. Settler heads north, to the dyes.

Mongol scout forces north-bound settler to divert diagonally.

2030 BC: Seoul trains settler, set to warrior (more scouting, while the city replenishes sufficiently for another settler).
New settler sent south, towards the tip of our peninsula.

2070 BC: P'yongyang trains warrior, and grows to 2 pop. I start training a worker (and shift tiles to 1 grass, 1 forest). Warrior heads northeast, toward dyes and new city site.

1990 BC: Diplo check divulges that Mongols have discovered iron working. We can’t afford it – and the Indians have nothing they could trade for it anyway.

1950 BC: Northern settler founds Wonsan, among the dyes, on a jungle/dye tile. It will take awhile to grow, but at least has a forest/dye tile to work until more fertile land can be hacked out.
Doh! Barbs appear as the fog around Wonsan lifts. We’re going to get a visit. And I have no warriors at hand, and nothing I can spend our money on. :mad:

1910 BC: Wonsan is ransacked; we lose 23 gold.

1870 BC: Pusan founded, on the southern tip of the peninsula. Starts training a warrior. (What I really want down here at this point is a worker, but the city wouldn’t grow in time.)

1880 BC: P'yong worker emerges, set to roading plains tile to connect with our n/s artery. (I should have laid this road along the river, to be improving bonus river tiles. Now I see the weed :smoke: .)

1790 BC: Seoul trains warrior, starts on settler. Iron Working is still expensive; Indians are still poor (and without IW); no new contacts yet.

1725 BC: Whoops, I think I played an extra turn (assuming we were supposed to shift to 10 turn rounds, at this point). Sorry. :(


Suggestions: I settled our third city among the dyes, as advised. My feeling is that we should plant our next city along the floodplains at the foot of the gem mountains, to the northwest of P’yongyang.

We need to explore and (hopefully) make contacts beyond the Indians and Mongols. Push a warrior or two through the cultural-free corridors, before they close off.

I left a warrior on the road between Seoul and P’yong, where he would be within striking distance of either city in case barbs spring up down here. We might want to send him off scouting, and risk the barbs?

If iron working does come down from 2d civ price, it might be a good early buy. We have a fair amount of mountains nearby (another reason to get a city up on the floodplains).

Here's the game:

Here's our little corner of the world:

Borealis: To tell the truth, I never check the F11 screen in the early going of a game. I know it's there, and I guess checking up is not considered an exploit. But to me, it always felt kind of, well, exploit-ative.
(I don't mind if you check and tell us all, though.)
Nice to have the relevent wonder list here -- thanks!

Wow, this is going fast! I've got it and will have it back tomorrow.

FYI:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LAK-217.jpg


Please look at the red arrows.
You do *NOT* need to build wonders to trip a GA.

So, would a successful bombardment trigger the GA? Anybody tried it?

That anwser I don't know.
I have played Korea yet.

Edit : The editor has GA but not lethal bombing. The civ write up says it has leathal bombing :confused: Not sure what about the Hwach'a will give the GA? Guess we will find out :D.

Hotrod

Hotrod
Rowain
Unique Unit
Mystery <---- UP
Meldor (On Deck)
Borealis

The civ write-up, and suggestions here are WRONG

The Hwatcha will NEVER set off a GA, in a game w/o a mod.

The flag for can set GA means that if it kills an enemy unit it will setoff the GA. But the Hwatcha does **not** have lethal bombardment. If Lee's screenshot scrolled down that list just slightly it would show there is a flag for lethal bombard (one vs land and one vs sea actually), and it's NOT set for Hwatch'a.

To be definitive, I pushed my test Korea game wrecklessly to Metallurgy.

Hwatach'a destroyed improvements, destroyed buildings, hurt an enemy, but did *NOT* set off a Golden Age.

I hope that's clear now :p

Charis

Duplicate post

Well I now officially consider the Hwatcha this worst UU of the game.

Korea at higher levels will be almost impossible to trip a golden age. I think the ultimate deity challenge will be play this weak civ.

Preturn, not much to do at this point. I leave everything
as is.

IT Pusan builds a warrior, I switch to worker. Oh man, two civs
close by...we'd better hurry up and get math (23 turns).

(1)1700BC Fortified a warrior. Doing some exploring.

(2)1675BC Fortified another warrior...only Seoul uncovered.

IT Seoul builds a settler, I must use him as a buffer between
us and the Mongols...we are already almost out of room!

(3)1650BC not much

(4)1625BC Warrior in Wonsan sent to clean up barb activity.

(5)1600BC not much

(6)1575BC not much

IT Warrior built in Seoul covers last city. All cities set
to Temple, but these can obviously be changed to settlers
if possible.

(7)1550BC Namp'o formed.

(8)1525BC Barb camp fragged. I get Writing from India for
150 gold.

IT Our first palace expansion...we get a lawn.

(9)1550BC not much...I'll stop here to even out the turns.
Seoul could be rearranged for a settler in 4 if the next
leader so desires.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1500_bc.zip

Hotrod
Rowain
Unique Unit
Mystery
Meldor <-----
Borealis (On Deck)

1500 BC (Pre-turn)
We can get a settler in 4, but only by wasting shields. Even at max it still takes 15 turns for Math. Switch Seoul to a spear, we can then do a settler. The spear will do as much for happiness as the temple right now and give more defense. We have no bonus food anywhere that it will do us any good. We need to switch to Monarchy as soon as we can (assuming we will be aggressive). Change Wonsan to worker. We need all the improvements we can build.
(I) Spearman builds, palace expands.

1475 BC (1)
Movement.
(I) Warrior is attacked by barbs in jungle, but is unharmed.

1450 BC (2)
Exploring. Warrior finds barb camp in jungle.
(I) Warrior attacked by a second barb, must heal before hitting barb camp.

1425 BC (3)
Take out barb camp, second explorer finds a goodie hut.
(I) Namp'o finishes Warrior and starts worker. Wonsan finishes worker begins spear.

1400 BC (4)
Nada.

1375 BC (5)
Movement.
(I) Seoul completes the settler and starts a barracks.

1350 BC (6) Settler and spear start trip to river area by hills. Goodie Hut only give 50g. See a green border. I can finally get Iron working fro striaght cash but will wait for contact with third civ before paying up.
(I) gems are now on-line.

1325 BC (7)
New contact is the Japanese. Get Mysticism from Japan for 70g. Mysticism and 39g to Gandi for Iron Working. Horseback riding from Korea for 79g and 1gpt. Sell it to Gandi for 89g. We are now all up to date on techs. The only iron can reach is in a mountain north of the jungle. We need to get a settler up there or take the city that is placed there. There is a second deposit between the other three civs.
(I) Horses are now hooked up.

1300-1275 BC (8-9)
Movement.
(I) Namp'o completes its worker and starts a barracks.

1250 BC (10)
Movement.

Hot1 1250 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1250_bc.ZIP)

[EDIT] Fixed errant ')' that got in link.....

Hotrod (on Deck)
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis < ---- Up Now

Link above is bad extra ) in the link:

Borealis try this one. http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1250_bc.ZIP

Have the game- I'll play tonight or tomorrow morning. :)

1250 BC (0) Inherited turn.
I check diplomacy and note that the Mongols and the Japanese now have communications with China. The price, at 87 gold, is too high right now, and in PTW, the AI will sell communications to each other- as soon as Mao gets Writing + enough cash, Japan or the Mongols will sell him contact with us. The F11 screen reveals that France and Persia are also out in the world somewhere, and for capital cities Kyoto>Delhi>Karakorum.

India and Mongolia both get their UUs in place of knights, and it looks like we're going to have to fight one of them for space soon. The Keshik archer needs iron, and costs 60 shields. The war elephant needs no resources, and costs 70 shields. Also, Gandhi is a greater cultural threat- unless Genghis is overtly aggressive and brings us to the war first, plan on taking out Gandhi first as the Mongols don't have iron yet. The war probably won't be in my turn, but I'm going to build us up in expectation for a war with Gandhi or Genghis. Before we go to war, we should consider building embassies, to possibly drag the other one in (only after making sure we can claim the territory first).

The iron up in the jungle has an Indian cultural border next to it- I'll send the next settler pair up there, but with cheap temples we'll probably have to take that city out, as the amount of jungle makes travel time to it nonnegligible.



1225 BC (1)
Send settler + spear pair to spot on river between Gandhi and Genghis. It will start a temple immediately when it arrives. Swap temples in P'yongyang and Pusan to barracks. We can afford the extra maintenance, and vet troops + lower cost mean that we get to start more troops/settler pairs that much earlier. If we desperately need temples later, we can build them, but right now we shouldn't build them unless we're planning against a possible flip.

1200 BC (2)
Movement.

Interturn: Our warrior scout to the south of Japan is attacked and killed by a barb while on a hill- bad luck with the RNG. :(

1175 BC (3)
Movement.

1150 BC (4)
Seoul and Pusan build barracks; start spears.

1125 BC (5)
Math research complete! I start 40 turn research on Literature- cheap libraries and possibly the GL depending on AI progress (probably not, but it's possible... I've done it before with the Koreans on Monarch). Cheju founded; starts temple.

The Mongols have Math, so I shop it around to Japan for Contact with China + 24 gold, a 123 gold value as Japan won't sell the contact for less than 99 gold. Mao has 3 gold in his treasury, lacks Math and Horseback Riding, but has one more city than we have. Gandhi has 42 gold and only four cities- he buys contact with China for the remainder of his treasury.

1100 BC (6)
Wonsan builds spear as the forest near it is cleared, and starts a worker.

1075 BC (7)
Seoul builds spear; starts settler. This has time to be changed by the next leader- I think we have maybe 2 more cities to claim before we start troop buildup, but if necessary we can get a sword in 4 turns instead. P'yongyang builds barracks, starts a spearman. For now, the spear fortifies in Seoul to help with MP and defense.

1050 BC (8)
Movement.

1025 BC (9)
Pusan builds spear; starts settler. If we decide to build the settler, it can probably build it exactly when it grows, with sufficient MM. For now, the spear fortifies there.

India has founded a city by the dyes north of Wonsan that will also effectively block any city built to grab the iron. Wonsan switches to temple. A Chinese warrior is finally sighted north of an Indian city- he and Gandhi know each other now.

1000 BC (10)
Movement.


Again, the settlers currently building can be swapped to swords if necessary. The military advisor says that we have an 'average' military as compared to India and China, and are 'weak' compared to Mongolia and Japan. All AI cities are probably defended with spears, with lots of random warriors wandering around (3 Indians in the north that I saw). We need more room, and we're going to have to go to war to get it. Plenty of cash will probably buy us embassies and a military alliance against whoever we do go to war with. We have one relatively weak civ, India, to our north, and one strong one, Mongolia, to our south. I would recommend against an alliance with Mongolia, unless he appears ready to join with Gandhi, as having him grab those Indian cities will only make him more powerful. Japan might be a good candidate for an ally, but they're also close to India. China probably isn't close enough to help militarily, but will make Gandhi worry about his northwestern border.

It'd be nice to take the iron and extra dyes up north, but it's not urgent as they need a cultural expansion and road through the jungle to claim them, while Seoul is built on an iron deposit. :goodjob:

Also, Mao has 53 gold, and no Math or Horseback Riding... someone should sell a tech to him soon, as India is cash-poor and has Horseback Riding.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1000_bc.zip

Borealis: I agree, we will need to go on the warpath soon, and Gandhi seems like the best target. (Nice to have iron under-Seoul/sole, too!) I think an early strike is warranted -- as soon as we can get a few sword (and 'pults, of course) on line. One advantage is proximity: the Indian heartland and capital look to be in the fog to our immediate northwest. It would be nice to hit them while they are still in rex mode. Let's start stoking some dragon-fire! :evil: [plasma]
Should we consider taking Pusan off of settler production, and switching to military build (our first catapult)?

edit: for smilie effect!

Will Grab the game tonight!

Hotrod < ----- Up now
Rowain (on deck)
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis

1000 BC (0): Looking around and seeing no real land to plunk down our settler I veto the settler in Seoul and change to swordmand without wasting shields. Decided to leave Pusan for now on settler, may need it to full the void once the attack on India commences. Change Namp'o from barracks to catapult, wasting 1 turn. A city without a barracks should be producing the catapults. Build embassy in Karakorum (Mongols) for 31 gold, they are building the Oracle, due in 48 turns. We may need an alliance soon. Build embassy with Japan for 47 gold, Oracle due in 20 turns. Build embassy in China for 57 gold, They are building a settler, due in six growth to 2 in 6, :confused: they haven't fixed that bug yet. Trade China HBR for 50 gold. Set research at 100% to get Lit in 10 turns, losing 5 gpt.

975 BC (1): Seoul builds swordsman, starts another. Namp'o builds catapult and starts another.

950 BC (2): Mongol's come asking for 28 gold, I refuse and they declare war :ack:, not what we wanted, no one will join an alliance. Pusan changed to spearman, due next turn. Seoul changed to archer due in 3 vs. 5 for the sword.

925 BC (3): Pusan builds spear starts archer. The troups are suffling, move a spear to help protect Namp'o, sending sword to join the cat in Namp'o will have a couple of archer to join the party soon. Build embassy in Delhi for 30 gold. Hope India will join the fight against the Mongols. We get a new partner in the war for the WM and 85 gold. Trade China math, WM and 9 gold for Map Making. With our newly signed agreement to India we are now in for a 20 turns war. Unless ofcourse India breaks the deal!!

900 BC (4): Archers approach Cheju to the West, troups congrigating in Namp'o for deployment, the swordsman arrives form the North next turn. Pyongyang builds spear start archer, set to maximize sheilds, due in 4 vs. 7. Cheju is changed to spearman.

875 BC (5): Cheju builds spear, start warrior. 3 archer approach, a team is assembling, a spear, a cat and a swordsman await the archer.

850 BC (6): 1 spear is killed in Cheju, the other may not last the attack of 4 archers :(.

825 BC (7): Cheju is burned to the ground :(, Seoul builds an archer starts swordsman. Pusan builds archer starts another. The stack of 1 spear, 1 sword, 1 archer and a catapult are heading west.

800 BC (8): Stack continues to move, a second crew of 2 archers and a cat are following.

775 BC (9): The troup attack and kill 3 archers, and moving on Ta-Tu.

750 BC (10): Learn Lit, start Code of Laws at min science, due in 40 with +16 gpt. Trade Lit to Japan for 65 gold and Code of Laws. Trade CoL to China for TM and 60 gold. Researching Currency but set slider at 0% (Rowain can decide). Can be changed to something else without a problem.

There is a stack ready to attack Ta-Tu, it is only a size 1 city without culture so it will be razed. war was not started on my terms but that is too bad for us. India is a Gracious friend now in our fight against the Mongols. Trading lit may have been a bad idea but with war going on I didn't think of even starting the GL.

Next time I will learn to give in to the demands :(. Know when to see "yah sure take all my money" It would have bought us some time to get some more infrastructure. I focused on troops. Didn't even consider wonders. With any luck this war will produce a leader.

Also of note there are 2 catapults in range of the city and another being built.

Good luck!

Hotrod

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_750_bc.zip

Hotrod, you won't have to worry about any of that silly diplomacy stuff in LK37. Just fight:hammer:

Very true!! :lol:

Got it

Rowain

Do I get it right we need to bombard even before we attack a Unit? Or is the Bombarement only needed for attacks on Cities?



Rowain

Only on cities. With every unit I think that would be too much.

Hotrod

Well I played before I posted the Question so I did only attack Units when I could bombard them but I doubt it makes much difference


750BC (0): Pusan to Horse. It makes 6 shields so it would build an Archer (at20shield) in 4 turns wasting 4 shields). A Horse needs one turn more without any waste and has the chance to retread.
Nanpo switched to Settler ; I want to resettle our lost site before India does it;
Seoul makes 9 shield working 2 unimproved grasslands although a mined one is available?
Change the worked tiles and Seoul makes now 10 shield which mean a Sword in 3 turns without any waste.
Then I check the preferences and I see. Governor is default for all Cities. Ungh :mad: Who uses a Governor?
If you let the AI decide what tiles should be worked you will end screwed. Don’t forget that’s the same AI that losses against a Human player even on Deity where it gets the tremendous advantages.

IT Seoul Sword->Sword;

730BC: Attack on Ta-Tu. Our catas fire but both miss; our Swordman attacks and dies :(
but then our Archers win and Ta-Tu is autorazed

IT: The archer which razed Ta-Tu is attacked. He kills a Warrior but dies versus an Archer.
Pusan Horse->Horse;

710BC: Movement towards Karakorum

IT: The Spear in the stack kills two Archers and is now elite;

690BC: Moving;

IT: Japans signs a Alliance with Mongols against us;
P’yangpo Spear->Cata;

670BC: moving;

IT: Settler-> Settler in Nanpo, we must expand;
Seoul gets a Scientist (not what I want but there is no time for a Temple now);

650BC: Attack on Karakorum: 1 arty hits, 2nd misses; Our Archers attack and win Karakorum is now a Korean province

IT: I watch with a smile on my face as an Mongolian Warrior kills an Indian Spear and enslaves the Settler the Spear was guarding;

630BC: Whip a Spear in Karakorum

IT: Spear in Karakorum Library started (cheapest culture building)

Pusan is now on 7 shields so instead of Horse we make a Cata next (could be a Archer too)
Seoul SM->SM;

Pyonyang starts a Settler after his Cata; Kyoto finished the Oracle

550BC: Hyangsun founded (on our old site) Starts Temple;



Afterthoughts: India and china would both give Philo for Literature but Mongols would give Philo for peace!. Our Alliance with India ends in 3 turns. I suggest keeping Lit for us and making peace with Mongols for their Philosophy. The Settlers now under production should go One to the ruins of Ta-Tu and one to the desert tile on the coast NE of the Hill between our Mainland and our Dyes city. It will secure our trading route to Dye-city and should get the Whales after a Borderexpansion


Good Luck Unique

Rowain






The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_550_bc.zip)

Got it. I should be able to play and post tonight.

I did not turn on the governors :(. That explains why I was shaking my head as to why the citizens kept changing the working tiles, I didn't even think to check for governors. Don't the cities get highlighted when governors are on?

Anyway, will mongols go for peace? Sorry about the confusion reguarding attacking units. Having to use cats to attack any unit would be too difficult. The extra restrictions will already have will be tough enough.

Hotrod

Hotrod
Rowain
Unique Unit <--- playing
Mystery (on deck)
Meldor
Borealis

Don't know about the Governors. I can only say that the 'Capital Governor is default for all cities'-preference was turned on.

Mongols would give Philo for peace right now so I guess as long as we don't lose suddenly a lot of Units they will do so in 3 turns too.

@Unique: don't forget to cancel the Alliance first before we make peace.

Rowain

If we cancel the Alliance with India vs. Mongols will they sign one against Japan? Will they sign one now? India could serve as a buffer zone vs. Japan and give us time to build more units and continue our growth.

Hotrod

I will look into a possible alliance against the Japanese. I am also weighing the idea, on the other hand, of taking on India while they are engaged to their north. They are hemming us in to our north and west, and this might be a good opportunity (pre-elephants) to whittle them down. Any reactions to this proposal? (I'll hold off playing for now, in case this is :smoke: and other players want to chime in.)
Btw, I don't know who activated the governor. I never use them, and understood they were an SG no-no.

Our original plan was to attack Ghandi and considering the land we have this is the best move now. If we need an alliance against Japan I would suggest Mao since he is a Neighbour to Japan. I would rather see us allying with Mongols against India to get their land.

We must build a strong land now. Couse all 4 Civs that started on our Continent get their UU with Chivalry.

I propose to try to take as much as possible during Ancient Age and start to build a strong defense and Economy withthe beginning of Middle-Age. Lying low while all those Keshiks, Samurais, Riders and Elephants run around but ready to explode when Cavalry comes up.

Rowain

If china will go for it, :cool:! A military buildup for attack on India is still in the cards provided Japan stays away. Will the Mongols give peace to India after we cancel the alliance? Maybe Rowain is right and we could keep the Mongols in war with India and attack them ourselves, using our new friends the Mongols :lol:.

I agree about taking what we can in the Ancient times and letting the "knight UUs" kill each other while we wait for Metalurgy and Military Tradition to take them out with our UU and cavs.

If we can eliminate India before chivalry that would be a plus.

Any thoughts on wonder building?

Hotrod

Hm wonder-building.

Thing is we are very thin on infrastructure now. Our capital lacks a temple, we need a lot more workers, Marketplaces will soon be available, Libraries needed and so on. I would say if we get a Leader the Great Lib would be nice if not let us built up some infrastructure first before using our few shields on Wonders.

Two stacks of ~5 Swords,1 Cat,2 Spear should be enough to hurt India big time and give us the land we need.

Rowain

We are slowly growing populous and powerful, and have taught the Mongols a lesson.

Interturn: Why have we irrigated riverbanks? Is this the auto-worker at work?
Pop-rush temple at Wonson? Yes. Maximum efficiency how, and growth is stunted anyway, until we improve land. (I think it may have been :smoke: -- my :smoke: -- settling up here so early.
Our reg warrior takes Mongol elite warrior down to one hp ... then dies.

Seoul builds sword, set to sword.

Japan is building GL! So they have lit, too.

530 bc (1) : Military travels to western front.

(i) Mongol archers approach outskirts of Karakorum.

510 bc (2) Patroling horse kills reg Mongol warrior. Military movements.

(i) Japan wants to parlay. Peace for (our) tribute of 180 gold? "Not a chance."
Pusan trains spear, begins sword.

490 bc (3) Elite archer takes out Mongol archer.

(i) Alliance with Indians vs Mongols expires. Indians remain at war, however.
Seoul finishes sword, starts temple. (Subject to change.)
Nampo trains settler, starts worker.
English build Pyramids, in York.
Several Japanese warriors emerge from fog in north, approaching Wonsan.

470 bc (4) Mongols will no longer give philo for peace! We have some military built up and in place. Let's cause them some pain and see if they grow more reasonable.
China has construction. Price for alliance against Japanese is lit, WM, 320. Sounds expensive, and seems unnecessary. Will trade construction for lit, wm, 270 gold. Sounds expensive.
India will ally against Japanese, and give us philo, for lit, 240. This is tempting. It might keep the Indians occupied, softening them up for us later .... :evil: After reflection, I decline.
Horse kills Mongol archer; elite archer kills Mongol archer. Wonson worker taken off jungle clearing (aargh. But we don't have the military up here to defend him).

(i) Chinese start Great Wall. English complete Colossus, at York.

450 bc (5) Regular warrior emerges from Wonson to defeat reg Japanese warrior.
Troop movements. I'm putting together a stack on the western front to move against Almarikh.

430 (6) Stack attacks Almarikh. Pult misses. Sword defeats spear. Archer defeats spear. Wounded elite Mongol warrior remains in city. I move more forces up for next round.

410 (7) Almarikh razed. Mongols will give philo, all his gold (12), for peace. But not his maps? Okay, philo, 5 gold, wm for peace. Done.
Our continent (assuming that spit on the nw corner is not an isthmus) is a good size: with us, the Mongols, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Indians. There is some choice territory well to the nw, unclaimed, between India, China and the Japanese.
Gandhi has nothing to offer for lit. (Well, 1 gold. No thanks.) Chinese will sell construction for lit, wm, 260 gold. Too steep, and the tech can't be brokered because the other civs are too poor.

(i) Forbidden Palace message pops up.
Pusan revolts. Doh! :smoke: , sorry. They get a scientist.

390 bc (8) Japanese warrior, archer approach outskirts of Hyangsong. (Diverted from Wonson? I left Hyang undefended for a turn, not as an exploit, but to finish off Almirkh.)
Seoul finishes sword, set to temple (veto this if you want, but we now face no credible threats and it might be a good time to slip in a little building).

370 bc (9) zzz

390 bc (10) Mongol sword moves into our territory near Karakorum. Grr. Are they looking for round 2? Or just taking a short cut to their war with India?
Sword kills Japanese warrior. inch'on founded, on coast.

I check for brokering opportunities. India has currency, Construction. Currency can be had for 250, and China doesn't have it? I take the plunge: currency from India for 250 gold; construction from China for currency, wm, 50 gold. Mongols have both already?!?

Peace from Japan would cost us 100. I leave this question to our next leader.
Mongols and Indians still seem to be at war, in a desultory way. Some Japanese forces are approaching P'yong (which I had stripped of its spear), but I have moved some forces into the area for reinforcement.
I left the garrison in Karakorum unmoved, in case we wanted to strike against the Mongols (violating the peace). Even if Genghis does commit a dastardly strike, however, we have strong defenses in place.

Good luck to our next leader!

Wow, Pyramids and the Colossus within three turns in the same city??? That must be a great leader happening on at least one of those.

BTW, I got it.

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery <---- Playing
Meldor (on deck)
Borealis

Nice round UU and Rowain! Putting a hurtin on the Mongols :goodjob:

Hotrod

Sorry, folks. I'm having problems posting the save game. I will try tomorrow morning from work.

Reading over my post, I see I forgot to mention that the first time Seoul started a temple, I switched over to sword part way through. That's why it has no temple yet.

edit: some other items that escaped my official report:
1) We found Ulsan on the ruins of Ta-Tu.
2) We are about to begin researching polytheism. Switching before the turn begins will not waste any research.
3) Most currently set builds are non-military. Change any or all if they seem inappropriate. We are at war, but under no serious military threat. Of course, we may want to begin a buildup for war against India in the near future.

nope it was not your weed to settle Wosan , It was my Idea and I still think it was necessary. It may not be very productive right now but it is a long term investment

Rowain

Save game is here: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_350_bc.zip

edit: you may have to add .sav to the name of the file once you've unzipped it. Sorry, I'm still getting the hang of this download system.

For a screenshot of our empire:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_350_bc.jpg

edit: rats, the link is busted. There is a jpeg in the uploads3 folder, though.

Actually, the picture is at

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_350_bc.JPG

(the upload folder is case sensitive and you have to be wary of it.) You can also just show the image by

putting the link inside [ IMG ] and [ /IMG ] tags (without the spaces, of course. If you use the "post reply" instead of the "quick reply", the IMG button does this automagically for you, if you want.

Then you can actually see the picture, a la....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_350_bc.JPG

HTH,
Arathorn

Thanks, Arathorn!

What is our relationship with India now? Was the alliance cancelled before we made peace with the Mongols? If we are building up to attack India soon anyway it may not matter much right now but may effect how the other civs treat us when we look for alliances against India later.

Hotrod

The alliance was cancelled before we made peace with the Mongols. (Actually, Gandhi wasn't interested in extending it -- though he continued to wage his own war with the Mongols. :crazyeyes: )

Cool :cool:, is he still gracious, I doubt it? Little does he know :satan: !

Hotrod

With the link now here I'll try to have it back tonight...as long as my dsl returns to working condition.

I apologize, I did not get to the game last night, but I will have it back after work tonight.

If Mystery finishes before Sunday, I need to swap with Bory as I will be on the road all day Sat.

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery13 <---- Playing
Meldor (Swapped ?)
Borealis (On Deck)

Provided Mystery reports before saturday ;)

Preturn, I change Pyongyang from settler to temple...no, I'll let the
settler complete to see if we can fill that open spot where a city
used to be. It's a longshot though, as we won't get the settler
there for 12 turns. I do change Pusan to temple, as we have an
entertainer hired there. We can get Polytheism in 11 at -4gpt.
Most AI civs seem to go Republic first. Does anyone think we can
buy that for less than 1000g at 2nd, 3rd or 4th prices? I say we run for Monarchy now (Republic is 25 turns at -4gpt!!!).

IT Our sword repels an archer and goes elite.

(1)330BC A string of 6 Japanese units are coming South from India? Otherwise, lot's of worker and military movement.

IT Indians and Mongols still at play. More Japanese move into the
area through India.

(2)310BC not much...

IT China allies with India against the Mongols...hmmm

(3)290BC Paring down the Japanese attackers. Sending units to
take a Japanese town or two. I don't think it's the right time
to get between India, Mongolia and China.

IT Oops, China and Japan ally against us! Japan also declares war on the Mongols...looks like it's open season.

(4)270BC Japan now wants 80 gold for peace...not yet. Not much
otherwise...Japanese units making no progress against us from the North. Japanese empire starting to get quite big.

IT Seoul builds a temple, I switch to library trying to shave a few
turns off the run to Monarchy.

(5)250BC Moving troops...warring with Japan is not really in our best interests, but switching to a war with India would probably be worse. I try for an alliance with the Indians against the Japanese but we don't have enough to sway them...we're on our own.

(6)230BC not much

IT India settles the city spot that we we're trying to get...then,
the bad news...they ally with Japan against us. Ok, now we'll go
take the new city and a few other Indian cities.

(7)210BC Attacking the Japanese units, we get a leader for our new Great Library in Seoul!

(8)190BC not much

(9)170BC Pult shots against newly formed Hyderabad...1 in 4.
Elite sword and elite archer finish the job.
Units near Wonson finish off the remaining Japanese forces.
The price for peace went from 120g last turn to 60g this turn
but I still won't pay!

IT We've left the ancient age behind with the arrival of Polytheism.
We build the Great Library, and the Japanese build the Great Wall in the same turn. Lucky timing. I go for Engineering but turn science down to 10%.

(10)150BC Main city demolition force has turned North toward
central India. Will try to come to peace with Japan again.
Cleaning up some Indian forces in the area, we get another great
leader (I don't think I've ever had two come up in an SG).
A Japanese spearman mad it through my lines near Ulsan. It may
be going to the Mongolian mine deposit South of us because we have
no luxuries or resources to pillage in the area. I've actually
turned science all the way off...no point wasting money on science
for a while. The Great Leader is in Pyongyang. With nothing major on the great wonder board, now is the time for a great Army. I don't think we have a good spot for the Forbidden Palace just yet, but maybe our next leader will feel differently.

Lots of war going on, everyone except the Mongols is against
us. Try for peace with Japan and China, then try to barter
Polytheism. We could still get the Great Lighthouse if you move
the leader to a coastal city. Lots of options for the next King.
We are still in despotism as we shut off research after Polytheism. Might still be wise to research Monarchy, as the civs
we know are warring too much to research.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_150_bc.zip

2 leaders?! Woot!
Careful about using the leader to rush the Lighthouse -- I assume that in combination with the Great Library it would trigger our Golden Age.
Maybe if we research Monarchy, revolt, then rush the Library [edit: Lighthouse] and GA? That's a lot of turns to hold a leader, I realize, and we might lose our chance at the Lighthouse. But, aside from holding the leader, it doesn't entail much in the way of resource costs that we wouldn't be spending anyway (since I would argue we should research monarchy even with the GL).
Then, as a monarchy in GA, we could wage war pretty effectively and carve out some room for ourselves -- something we need to do before all those chivalry UUs the AIs will have are roaming around looking for trouble.
The Army option, on the other hand, means devoting a high shield city (Seoul?) to a major build (Heroic Epic) -- something that might be a strain given the number of enemies we now face and the small number of cities we now have.

2 leaders :goodjob: !

I think perhaps an army is the best bet right now. We may want to wait on the Golden Age for now and hope to get Smiths and have a GA when our UU is available. We need to take take it to the Indians now and try to get a reasonable spot for the FP. Once we hit Monarchy we can start putting some gold into rushing projects, something I have found is the greatest benefit of a commercial civ. Other comments??

Roster:

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery13
Meldor (on deck)
Borealis <---- up now

Got it. I'll play later tonight, or early tomorrow. Researching Monarchy seems like our best bet at the moment, as well as using the leader to create an army. Taking out the Indians before they get the chance to build War Elephants is a must, as we can't stop their production by pillaging their resources. I'll have to look at the game when I get it to determine which Indian cities have sufficient culture to survive our attack, but in case I get another leader, what do people think would be a good choice for a FP location?

I can't say without looking at the map. Will check it out later and give my 2 cents.

Hotrod

I don't think the FP spot is available yet. If we are going to take out India, our FP location probably will come to us.
We have quite a few elite units, so we should probably use the leader right away. I agree with UU though, that we probably can't afford to build the Heroic Epic right away.
The consensus is to go for Monarchy now even with the GL. Therefore, science must be turned back on right away. I think that is the proper move since the other known civs are not researching very fast.

Looking at the map I have to agree with Mystery. No site yet. After India losses a couple cities a site should be come available, maybe then we will have a leader to rush the FP either in or near Bombay. One thing I didn't think about was the possibilty of holding the leader until feudalism and snagging the SunZu away from the 3 militaristic civs on our continent :cooool:. I think the heroic epic is worth it but like UU and Mystery pointed out it is not going to come for a while. Following Monarchy we could rush some libraries and push toward Metallurgy then really make the others pay ;).

Hotrod

If we go for the army, let's build a sword army. Our main assault stacks are going to advance slowly anyway (ferrying our bombardment units).

An alternative way to play this is to rush the Lighthouse and try to maximize the early Golden Age -- preferrably by hitting India hard and starting FP production somewhere in her heartland (and meanwhile using our extra income to buy peace from other civs).

I would say, though, that landing one of our wonder requirements (a science wonder) takes some of the pressure off of our complicated GA question.

Too bad Colossus is located off-continent: capturing it, then building another wonder of any kind, would also trigger the GA.

The added benifit of the GL would mean possibly earlier contact with the other continent and improving our output from the Great Library. I could see it go either way. The best would be another leader to rush the FP well inside India ;). The other civs will all be in a GA after the dawn of Chivalry. Having ours now would mean taking India out rather quickly and using the GA to build a large force to destroy their core cities if not all of there territory.

I leave it up to Borealis.

Hotrod

Borealis: We are coming up on 48 hours. :scan: Will you be able to post before the holidays?

Realizing that the holidays will require a good deal of juggling it seems that a longer deadline will be required or a lot of swapping but if someone wants more time or a swap just post the request or give an indication of when the game will be posted. We moved rather well through the first cycle and I would like to see that pace continue best we can through the next week, week and a half.

Thanks

Hotrod

Any word from Borealis??? If she doesn't post tonight Meldor feel free to grab the game tomorrow and complete by Thursday evening or so. Then Borealis will be up again, back to the regular rotation.

Hotrod

Just a quick reply from either Borealis or Meldor to say what the status of the game is. A little info is better than speculation ;).

OK, got it.

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery13
Meldor <----- Playing now
Borealis (on deck ??)

150 BC (Pre-turn)
No way we are going to make progress with the current state of affairs. We can not take on all three of the big dogs at one time. Japan is in the middle so.....Japan gets 60g for peace. We then trade Japan Monotheism for their WM, 60g, RoP and alliances against both China and India. We change several temple builds to libraries. Change one to a cat so we can atttack cities in more than one place at a time.

The precise records for the time from 130 BC to 10 BC have been lost. We do know that two Indian cities were auto-razed and Pyongsong was founded by the lake. It will have wheat and flood plains. This will finally give us the settler factory we have lacked. Another settler is building that will hopefully get the other two wheat and we can build workers as well. We have Republic from the GL. Persia finished the Colossus.

10 BC
The troops are healing and heading for both Delphi and Bombay. A settler is on the way to replace the city razed at the Ivory.
(I) Nada

10 AD
The first troops with the cats arrive outside the two cities, bombardment begins next turn.

30 AD
More troops arriving.

50 AD
Delhi holds by a 1 HP spear and an archer. Bombay falls and is ours.

The settler/spear is headed for the spot on the hill beyond Pyongsong that will get the two other wheat. The settler near the Ivory is in position to settle next turn, giving it a bonus wheat after expansion.

Hot1 50 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_50_ad.zip)

Nice round Meldor :goodjob:! One question, what did you decide to do with the Great Leader??

Hotrod (on deck)
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis (24 hrs for got it)

Looking at the save, we built an army. It seems to be unblooded yet, though -- as the Heroic Epic is not yet a build option.

Sorry for the slip on that one. Yes, an army was built and the one archer that had already generated a GL was added to it. I was planning on adding the sword that had also generated a GL before I put it into battle.

If Borealis doesn't respond tonight I will grab the game and play 10 tonight.

Hot 1 from 50AD : Diplo check war with India will continue for at least 10 more turns. India will give up a city for peace now we'll see after we take Delhi.

IB: China and Mongols sign a peace treaty. India counter attack kills an elite archer by Delhi :( and promoted there unhurt archer to elite.

70 AD (1): Seoul builds spearman starts horseman. All units retreated south from Delhi waiting on reinforcements to attack with ground units, retreat for now, losing the elite archer hurt. Found Taejon near the ivory. Mongols have furs for trade but want monotheism and dyes.

90 AD (2): Bombay is rioting. Pyongyang builds spear starts another. Take the elite archer that left the city of Delhi. Moving swords and spear to the front lines. Continue migration of the settler to the North West.

110 AD (3): Forces are in postion to take Delhi next turn. settler movement continues, road to ivory continues. Spear arrives in Bombay, it is being starved :satan:. Furs are still too expensive. China will accept peace right now but we still have the alliance with Japan, China is loaded 800 + gold.

130 AD (4): Seoul builds horsey starts settler. 2 swords kill 2 reg spears at Delhi after 4 cats missed. Take the city. Army will get a sword added next turn.

IBTW: Mongols and china sign alliance against Japan. Mongols declare on Japan.

150 AD (5): Pusan builds galley starts library. Inch'on builds library starts catapult to take Lahore. Pizzi's Honor is now in the army with the Elite archer.

170 AD (6): Lots of troop movement. Spear arrives at Taejon. Army and cats are forming up a stack to go for Madras the new capital. The elites are healing in Delhi. Settler/spear pair arrives at the next city site, on the river with a possibility of 3 floodplain wheat.

190 AD (7): Seoul builds a settler starts a marketplace. Pyongyang builds a spear starts another. Ulsan builds barracks starts spearman. Found Paegam.

210 AD (8): Hysangsan builds barracks starts spear. Moving troops toward Calcutta and Madras. Settler/spear pair in galley to go around Lahore jungle city.

230 AD (9): Begin attack on Madras, kill 2 of the 3 spears but fail to take the city, lose 1 sword, 2 horses severly wounded, army has first victory but took damage. Destroyed Calcutta and captured 5 workers.

250 AD (10): Took Madras and 3 workers with the army. Started Library. Capital jumped to Lahore! :D.

India will give up Jaipur for Peace leaving only Lahore as his only city. If we take the peace deal we get to keep Jaipur and not raze it. we have to cancel the alliance we have with Japan first. He is now gracious but I don't know if he will be happy if we make peace with India. China will also talk but will not part with Monarchy. We are still a despotism and no new techs came from the great library :(. We may need to research Monarchy on our own and turn the slider back on. Who knows how far up the tree the other civs are.

If we accept peace now we may be able to go to republic and build up some more infrastructer and build up our forces for when the Hwach'a arrives. No one has chivalry yet and now is the time to make peace I think and go for republic, build the FP (or at least get a site), build the Heroic Epic.

Hotrod
Rowain <--- up now
UU (on Deck)
Mystery13
Meldor
Borealis(???)


Here is the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_250_ad.zip

Got it

perhaps i will need time till Sunday


Rowain

No problem ;) Thanks for the notice ahead of time

Sorry about the lack of posting- I haven't been able to get online for most of this week. The phone line (our only net connection) died a few hours after I posted the "got it" response, and with ill family members I haven't been able to access the internet until late this afternoon when the phone company finally fixed our street's outage- I guess all the repair workers were on vacation. :(

I'm willing to slip back into the rotation in this next run-through, after Meldor, to help keep things in order.

On the subject of the game, do we have anything to gift Japan with to make them temporarily happy with alliance-breaking? I agree with hotrod in that we need a retrenching period, to add pikes to our cities before the samurai/keshik warriors/elephants/riders arrive. How are we doing on the trade net/terrain improvements? Once everyone stops warring, the tech pace will pick up, and the GL should allow us to make some cash, either by 40-turn or tech selling, so buildings are rushable. We need at least a few more workers to make our new Indian cities productive, especially since non-industrious 'captives' work very, very slowly. We can always cash-rush improvements if necessary, especially marketplaces that will pay for themselves.

Welcome back Borealis! :D.

We shall see how this plays out. Rowain has the game and I am interested to see if the wars continued or peace rung throughout the land. Taking India was key, settling on a FP should be a priority now.

Hotrod

Sorry only a Summary this time:

We are still at war with China and India. India has only Lahore left which will need a bit more time cause we need roads through the Jungle for our Cats but I autorazed Jaipur and a new founded city. I tried to capture a Chinese Settler but our Horse retreated.

Our southern Galley sunken by a Barbarian attack. No new techs from GL and nobody has any new techs on our Continent. The good News no Wonders have been finished so perhaps the other Civs aren't that peacefully either.

Although I stayed at war I starte some Infra-projects.

Suggestions: Kill India; take the Chinese settler (or the town he will found) and then make peace and let us build Granaries, Markets, Libs, Temples .

FP perhaps in Bombay or Madras but other possibilities are still open.


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_350_ad.zip)

Rowain

Hotrod
Rowain
UU <------ Up now
Mystery13 (on Deck)
Meldor
Borealis

Recommend starting the FP soon. A leader rush would be a bonus. :lol:

Got it. Will play tonight.

A new warlord ascends to power over the Dragon Children, Unit Kon. His first measure is to tour the cities of his empire. He finds his people slowly growing and spreading across the land. Korean catapults have come to be feared across the breadth of the known world, but our military is thin and extended. Above all, our people need roads, infrastructure, libraries, markets, courthouses – the threads that will knit the Dragon Children together.

Pre-turn: Perhaps the library at Paegam could be rushed. It would cost 2 citizens, but this loss would quickly be restored by the fertile riverbanks nearby. We need to extend our cultural boundaries here, to encompass the iron (and deprive the Japanese of this source, at least). With no possibilities for forestry in this hot, flat landscape, we whip the library.

360 ad: Paegam finishes library, set to worker. Galleys begin circling coastline to eastern shores. With the Great Library, I think we should try several suicide galley gambits, to broaden our contacts and increase the Library’s yield.

Various troop movements.

370 ad: Kaesong founded, starts library. A barbarian camp emerges from the fog.

(int) China and Japan sign peace treaty. China founds city on the northern coast, along the rim our future FP first ring. We will have to stay at war long enough to wheel cats into place and raze it. (War moves slowly, with the bombardment varient.)

380 ad: movement. Road being carved through jungle to Lahore (under heavy guard) to lay siege to the Indian capital.

Pyongsong trains settler, set to courthouse. Taejon finishes library, begins marketplace.

390: movement. Barb camp pops a barb horse. Suicide galley # 1 ventures into the mists of the Eastern Seas (“Here be Dragons”). Pusan finishes granary, begins training sword.

Galley sinks.

410: Korean horse attacks barb horse, looses. Aargh! I ‘ve left one of our cats exposed.

Barbarian riders overrun catapult; the heathens burn the mysterious contraption. (Major weed here. Sorry. :( )

Karak finishes barracks, begins training sword. (We need southern defenses; sooner or later the Mongols are going to attack again.)

430 ad: Road to Lahore finally finishes. Our cats wheel to the edge of the enemy city.

440 ad: Cats fire on Lahore. Sword and horse take out two spear defenders. The city is ours, and the Indians have been utterly vanquished.
After some internal debate, I decide to hold onto the city. The placement is less than ideal (1 tile from coast). But with dyes in the area, other civs will try to plant here. We can always abandon and relocate once we have secured a stronger cultural border up here in the northern territories. City begins training worker, for jungle clearing.

Second suicide galley crosses Ocean of Mists. Sights pink border!

Pyongsong market finishes; city begins training horsemen. (I am trying to mix a few military builds in with the cultural program.) Pusan finishes sword, begins marketplace.

Galley survives the fearsome storms of the Eastern Seas! The Dragon smiles on his children: we establish contact with the French! [dance]
They are in communication with the English, Persians. They are behind in tech; have not yet discovered polytheism. (Since my turn ends upon initial contact, I will leave any bargaining to the next leader.)

Concluding observations:
I have not yet managed to start on the Forbidden Palace (and of course, got no leaders.) It might be worth staying at war with the Chinese in hopes of fishing a leader out of the conflict to rush the FP. I have begun a courthouse build in Madras (where we have lumberjack forests) in case we have to build it brick by brick.

Only the Chinese have monarchy. They wanted monotheism for peace (not likely, Mao).

The game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_450_ad.zip

Here's a snapshot of the mysterious pink people beyond the Eastern Seas.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_French_contact.JPG

Well done the French are no more and the Library should start giving us tech in bunches. :goodjob:!

I would recommend not trading for contacts just yet. In PTW the AI like to trade contacts much more frequently than "vanilla" CivIII. I am not sure about continuing war with China. If they pull in the Mongol's or Japan we may never see peace. IMO I think we should take that lone Chinese city then make peace and switch to Republic or try to get Monarchy from China and build the FP from Scratch.

Another option is to move on the Mongols and secure the southern part of the continent. We can't fight on both fronts and taking the war to China is a difficult task, given the distance to there cities.

Just my two cents! It is ultimately up to Mystery ;).

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery <---- up now
Meldor (on deck)
Borealis

got it

Actually, war with the Mongols might be a good idea. They are isolated and small: we should be able to seal off other fronts and take them out.
Otherwise, they will be a thorn on our southern flank, and a real threat if we get embroiled in serious warfare against either the Chinese or the Japanese.

I agree with UU about the Mongol-war and with not trading our contacts.

Rowain

If we can take the Mongols now is the time before they get Chivalry and their UU. If the War is brought to them we need to make peace with China and try to pry Monarchy from them or hopefully the GL.

Hotrod

Note that the Mongols do need iron for their UU. Depending on how many iron sources they have, and how far they are within their borders, we might be able to pull off a 'paralyzing strike' at first, and follow up later. The main problem will be keeping Japan and China out of it.

As far as I recall (can't open the game up now), the Mongols did have an iron source, which a century or so ago they hadn't yet hooked up, but probably have by now. They also have horses within reach, but not yet encompassed within cultural borders (again, if I'm remembering right).
Both resources, btw, are near our own borders, and would be easily pillaged.

I'll have my turns finished tonight

Preturn I change nothing, though I'm not too keen on 1 spt courthouses. Looking over our map, I think we should build an FP on former Indian lands and move our Captital in toward Mongolian lands. Then, courthouses may make more sense. Right now, we're building courthouses in an area that will have an FP close by. Could be a lot of wasted turns. I think the combo of an Ulsan palace and a Bombay FP would work very well.

Actually, Ulsan is building a courthouse now. It
would finish an FP in 23 turns. Then we could use a leader to rush the palace in Bombay (yes, I'm switching places because the palace would take 89 turns in Ulsan while the FP is 172 turns away in Bombay).
Advantage, we get an FP in only 23 turns, and it is far enough away from Seoul to be effective.
Disadvantage, former Indian lands still far away from either site.

I'd like a few responses back before I take on this plan.

Here is a picture of our lands. An FP in Ulsan would bring Mongolia
into play (when we get it:)). Bombay may be too close for a new
palace, but we can decide on that when we get a leader. Any thoughts?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Korea_450AD.jpg

Intriguing plan, Mystery. I like the idea of an Ulsan FP. What about a palace in Madras, rather than Bombay? Since we're commercial, that string of cities between the two axes should be quite productive, and moving the palace radius north draws in some quite fertile territory to the northwest.

Ulsan will work! We should see an immediate benift even without moving the palace. I would only be concerned about moving the palace by hand to Madras or Bombay. Also, Seoul and the cities around Seoul will most likely need a courthouse to help corruption. I don't have a feel for how much will be lost to corruption once the palace is moved. In addition, we will be losing our wonderplace holder for what could be, without a leader of course, a long time to come. We still need another wonder to get our GA. I think structuring our wonder building to get Smith's, or any others that may come our way.

Hotrod

I agree with Ulsan and a leader rushed palace in Bombay(Madras)


Rowain

Ok, I'll switch Ulsan to FP and have it back tonight. Later, we can use a leader to move the palace. We can build a courthouse in Seoul and other current core cities just before we swap the palace site and they should remain very productive.

Ok, consensus says to swap Ulsan to the FP. Due to the upcoming, close proximity FP, I change Pyongsong off courthouse to library. I change Hyangsan from courthouse to marketplace for the same reason.

IT France gets pissy with our unit in their territory. Fine. Also,
damn, Namp'o riots on me before my first turn. I thought I checked everyone, but I guess I missed this one.

(1)460AD Lots of movement. First, I'll take a Chinese city and see
if the price for Monarchy comes down. Second, I'll start sending
other military units toward Mongolia in preparation for WAR.

IT England wants to swap territory maps. I see no problem with this. Wow! They are huge.

(2)470AD I trade territory maps with France. As a throw in to the
trade, we get contact with the Persians for 100 gold. We then trade territory maps with Persia. From what I can see, France, England and Persia can only get to our continent via suicide galley run.

IT We finally get Monarchy from the Great Library! I'll go for
a change immediately. We have 6 cities riot (I don't know how to
use "scroll ahead", but we only have four turns of anarchy left.

(3)480AD Not much happens, though we are ready to take the Chinese city of Paoting in the next turn or two.

(4)490AD We don't take Paoting yet...next turn.

(5)500AD We almost lose an elite Swordsman (from a mountain), fighting a vet archer...but we don't and instead we get a great leader. Our Army destroys Paoting. We immediately go for a peace deal (and we get their world map). We have a settler in the area, so we'll resettle up here and then decide what to do with the leader. As a final bonus, our vet horse goes elite removing a barb threat from the area.

(6)510AD I decide to build the Hanging Gardens in Madras. Here are my reasons. First, it's way too early to move the palace here, as the core cities must keep producing at high levels for the war in Mongolia. Second, we are already having happiness problems, even with three lux's, and Hanging Gardens gives us an extra content citizen. Third, it's not obsolete until Steam Power.

IT We come out of anarchy. I didn't know that we had Republic
available as well. It didn't come on my turns, so I guess someone
decided not to switch to it. I think it's the best, so I'll try
it first. Hanging Gardens will help a lot and we can still easily
war with Mongolia under Republic.

(7)520AD As I'd hoped, 0% lux works as only Namp'o must keep an entertainer, and it will have a Marketplace in 3 to solve that problem. I rush a settler in Manp'o, as there is room for two cities where Paoting used to be and I don't want the Chinese to beat us there.

(8)530AD Actually, there is room for 3 cities up here, so I rush
another settler out of Madras.

(9)540AD moving settlers to claim the last space to the North.

IT Paegam riots on me...I don't understand this, as the city screen
shows 2 happy faces, 1 content face and 2 unhappy faces, along with a scientist. Every city I've ever mm'd in this game won't riot if
happy greater than or equal to unhappy???

(10)550AD Ok, three settlers are one square from their intended
locations. I have a horse on one site. I have a sword on another
site. And the third settler should go to either the empty grassland
square to the Northwest, or the hill directly West. I like the grass
square better, but I don't control the outcome.

The FP is in 11 turns. Our current core cities should start building
courthouses in preparation for the palace switch. I'm thinking that we'll pop another leader in the Mongolian war and we'll want to switch then.

We don't have much military left...in fact, our defenses are quite
pathetic...but what we do have is heading South. I have not switched science back on, as we had already invested 30 turns into Engineering, and, of course, we have the Great Library to cover tech for us still.

Finally, I just checked and communications between our "friends" has not yet been sold. Hopefully, we can keep this to ourselves until the GL expires and use the knowledge for tech. Also, we are not currently researching at all due to our scientist in Paegam being reassigned to entertainment. Have fun!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_550_ad.zip

some comments:

Happyness: The switch from Scientist to Entertainer is unnecessarry; If you have as much happy as unhappy faces the city stays content. The unhappiness is checkedd first so perhaps when the game checked for riots Paegam had more unhappyness but after all things were calculated it has enough happyness to stay content. So please switch it back and let our research towards the glorious Hwacha continue.

Scroll Ahead: When the first city riots you select 'Zoom to city' and in the city-screen you have two arrows left and right from the city-name. With these Arrows you can scroll through all Cities and adjust happiness.

Contacts: The AI never uses Suicide-galeys. So Persia with the Great Lighthouse is the only civ that can (perhaps) reach our continent and sell communications.

Good Luck Meldor :)

Rowain

Good Round Mystery :goodjob:

Hotrod
Rowain
Unique Unit
Mystery
Meldor <----- Up Now
Borealis (on Deck)

I see it, but it will be Sunday before I can play it. If Borealis can/wants to jump in there before that she is more than welcome to do so.

If Borealis can grab and play before then great but check back to see if she got it. If she hasn't posted her turns before Sunday lets go with the regular rotation.

Hotrod

Rowain, thanks for the scroll ahead tip...are we allowed to use it in our game?

Also, your happiness explanation is exactly my knowledge as well. However, the city DID riot under those conditions. That is why I was so frustrated.

From what I can see, I don't believe the Lighthouse will get them across. I cannot confirm that, though, since there is still a bit of fog out there.

I had the same thought re the Persians: I don't think the Lighthouse gives them enough extra movement to establish contact. (Although their might be an island in the fog there.) Let's maintain isolation as long as possible. (Eventually one of the civs on our continent might declare war if we refuse to trade contact. Worth a war, in many cases.)

Mystery: on the scroll ahead, IIRC is it an exploit if you use it to USE tiles in 2 or more overlapping cities to allow the "bonus" grass from one city to be used to get an improvement wonder exectera then zoom to that city change the tiles that are worked then "scroll ahead" to use that same tile in an overlapping city to get a bonus in a second city that hasn't been checked for production yet. To manage happiness I think it is something entirely different. If you zoom to Seoul after the civil disorder pop up you know you will have other cities in riot mode then managing there happiness with enteratainers, taxman, and scientist IMHO are not exploits just saving you the pain of seeing every single city pop up.

Hotrod

q Mystery: Here is the rule-set according Scroll-ahead from the Realms beyond Civ - Epics which are something like the standard rules for many Succession games (and for my soloplay too)

INTERFACE EXPLOITS

"Free Wealth": If you set a city to wealth, you get the benefit of the cash it generates before the game goes through the city production rotation. Thus, if you zoom a city earlier in the queue, and "scroll ahead" to the wealth city, you can get double production on a given turn by assigning a project to the city after the wealth has already been tabulated, as the wealth benefit registers before the city's actual production turn comes up. All use of scroll ahead to get "free wealth" is prohibited.

"Shared Tile": You can use "scroll ahead" after a particular city has registered use of a tile in the production queue between turns, to reach a city that shares that tile but has not taken its turn yet, to "work a tile" on the same turn by more than one city. Any deliberate use of scroll ahead to share tiles is prohibited.

"Instant Military": You can use "scroll ahead" after the AI's movement phase has completed, but before the turn ends, during the between phase, which opens the possibility of being able to react to the AI move in an exploitive way, allowing you to play underdefended and rush Instant Military any time you need it. Two actions are still allowed. Action One: Scrolling ahead to repair tile arrangements screwed up by the invasion of military units (to override the pathetic auto-governor's poor choices) is still allowed. Action Two: scrolling ahead to make use of technology discovered on that turn is still allowed, regardless of what the AI's are doing. All other scroll ahead action in response to AI moves between turns is now prohibited.

"Free Healing": Normally, if a unit moves, it is not supposed to heal at the end of that turn. However, when the game is saved and loaded, the "has moved" flag is not maintained. It is redetermined from movement remaining. If a damaged unit can make it to a barracks city without using any movement -- via rails and "sailing port to port" -- and you save and then load the game, it will heal at the end of that turn. Saving and reloading to deliberately gain free healing is prohibited.

"The Big Picture": On any turn after discovering new tech, you can click "What's the Big Picture", and from there get to any of the operational menus with the Function keys. This opens all manner of between-turn access, even before you get into the production queue, with a number of loopholes and exploits opened up. ALL use of clicking "The Big Picture" between turns to gain deliberate access to menus is now prohibited. Any use of scroll ahead for legitimate purposes must come through zooming during the production cycle.

As far as I know it is allowed to use scroll ahead for Happiness-problems.

As mentioned this are the rules for RB-games so an Succession-game Leader can allow what ever he wants.


According Happyness Your undestanding is correct but as I said I think the City had more Unhappiness(for whatever reason) during the checking phase. When I switched the Entertainer to Scientist and hit nextturn the city stayed in order.


Rowain

Thanks Rowain. I guess something must have happened that I missed. I made sure the scientist was set properly when I changed to Republic. At that time, the city screen showed 2 happy, 1 content, 2 unhappy and 1 scientist. I let it go. The next turn it rioted. I zoomed on the city to see why, and it was still in the same form. Therefore, I assumed the city would continue to riot if not changed. Nothing happened between turns, no lux deals or anything else that could affect happiness and the city obviously did not grow. It simply went into disorder and I still don't know why. If the city is ok now then I guess I'll forget about it.

And from now on I'll use scroll ahead to prevent disorder when changing governments mid-turn.

Don't worry the city-happiness is sometimes very strange. I have cities continually going into WLKD and out from it without any changes. Perhaps this has to do with Lux-tax and floatpoint numbers.


Rowain

I didn't see Borealis post, so I have it.

[EDIT] Delete///statement was incorrect

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor <---- playing
Borealis (on deck)

550 AD (Pre-turn)
If we are going to assualt the Mongols we need a bigger army. We also have a bunch of cash. I give Japan WM, Monarchy, and 654g for Feudalism. I then sell it off to everyone else to get their world maps and cash. We upgrade all of the swords and spears we can to MDI and pikes, respectively. We still have over 1200g left, and I need places to build military. I rush an MDI in Karakorum, a library in Pyongsong, a market in Hyangsan, a temple in Pyongyang, a harbor in Inch'on and a library in Bombay. We still have over 600g left and an income of 110gpt. I also set the entertainer in Namp'o to a scientist to get Engineering in 10 turns. Namp'o is building a temple which will be complete 1 turn before the city grows again, which will keep it from rioting. The Mongols have 5 swords and 2 archers in our territory near Karakorum. As they are at war with Japan, I will allow them to wander off to Japan while we build up our resources. It also looks like the Japanese and Mongols have destroyed enough cities, that if we rush a settler or two, we can vulture in on some new cities. We notice that Paegam is rioting, we set the entertainer there to a tax collecter. Now, after all of that we will have 10 boring turns preparing to take out the Mongols.
(I) We watch the Mongols kill off a Japanese spear, and then the Japanese counter -attack takes out two swords at the cost of one archer. Two more Mongol archer enter our territory. Karakorum completes an MDI and starts another. Bombay completes its Library and starts a temple. Pyongyang finishes its Temple and starts an MDI. Pyongsong completes a Library and starts a settler (we need to get them more shields). Hyangsan raises a Market and starts an MDI. Inch'on is done with the Harbor and starts a Market. The Mongols starts Sun Tzu's.

560 AD (1)
Do some more upgrades. Move troops in the direction of the Mongols. After much thought I change the HE build in the Seoul to Sun Tzu's. I don't think I will be in battle during my turns, and I can build HE in the FP city as soon as it is done. Rush the Library in Kaesong.
(I) The Mongols kill off two Japanese archers and then the Japanese kill off one Mongol sword, but he take an archer with him. A chinese settler/spear pair appear near our new city site (to be built next turn). Wwill find joy in watching them turn around and leave.Kaesong completes its Library and starts a Temple.

570 AD (2)
Change the taxman in Paegam to an entertainer as it just grew and needs a smige more happiness now. Have to add a taxman at Taejon as it just grew. Chonju, Sariwon, and Suwon and all founded in former Chinese lands and they all start a Library. Rush the settler at Pyongsong. Change product at Paegam to a settler and rush it as well.
(I) The Japanese trade two more archers for a sword. The Chinese settler/pear is still moving in our direction. Now just where might he be headed? Maybe he is headed for future goodies in the jungle, we will watch him. Pyongsong and Paegam finish settlers and start pikes. The Chinese start Sun Tzu's. The Mongols are also sending a sword and two archers in a strange direct, not at the Japanese.

580 AD (3)
We divert so troops to gather near the wandring Mongols. We will ask them to leave as soon as we have the troops to take them out.
(I) Japan kills off one Mongol archer. Lahore builds a worker and starts a Library.

590 AD (4)
Now that there are some MDI near, the mini-mongol SoD turns to the north. Hurry the pike in both Pyongsong and Paegam. Ask the Mongols to leave, they refuse and declare war! We kill off a Sword and two archers, leaving two archers still in our territory. One of those gets bombarded by two cats and is down to 1 HP. We steal a worker from the Mongols and head for the first city.
(I) One archer pillages. Pyongsang builds an MDI and starts another. Pyongsang builds its Pike and start a settler. Same for Paegam. The Mongols send an archer out to get the worker back. The 1 HP archer heads for home. The Mongols have to pull back all of their workers and didn't even get to finish connecting up the iron, too bad.

600 AD (5)
We kill the pillaging archer. The archer after the worker gets nailed by a cat and then whacked by an MDI.
(I) The Mongols try to kill an MDI with archer and we get an elite MDI.

610 AD (6)
Rush the Libraries in Lahore and Manp'o to get the borders up and get the jungle covered. Hopefully this will stop the Chinese settler headed that way. Ask the Japanese archer to leave (we don't want them getting to the Mongol cities before we do. I rush the MDI at Karakorum. Haeju is built on a hill with a river and lots of mountains. It starts building a Libary.
(I) The Japanese SoD of ten archers moves back into our territory. We will let them move one more turn before asking them to leave again. Karakorum completes an MDI and starts another. Manp'o completes a Library and starts a worker. Pusan finishes its Market and begins a Pike. Namp'o completes its temple and starts a catapult. Lahore builds its Library and starts a worker. Hyangsan trains an MDI and starts a Pike.

620 AD (7)
We kill off two more Mongol archers and move in on Ulaanbaatar to stop any possible Mongol iron. Japanese settler beat us to nice spot on coast by one turn. We will have to build on hill. Taegu is built, it will have lots of shields near and be close to FP. It starts a Library. Ask the Japanese to leave and once more they comply. By building the city before asking them to leave, that moved them an extra 5 squares away from the Mongols. I am hoping that the Mongols will beg peace from the Japanese before they get mad enough to declare war on us. Put the scientist a Namp'o to work and change the taxman at Taejon to a sceintist.
(I) The Japanese now have 11 archers a spear and a cat in their SoD.

630 AD (8)
Movement and rest. Two cats and an MDI arrive outside of Ulaanbaatar.
(I) Nada.

640 AD (9)
Bombard Ulaanbaatar to see how many defenders are there but the second cat fails. We wait one more turn before attacking.
(I) We learn Engineering and start Invention at 1 scientist. I would crank up science but I leave that for the next person to decide. p'yongyang build an MDI and starts another. Namp'o finishes a cat and starts a harbor.

650 AD (10)
We bombard Ulaanbaatar and then take it with 2 MDI. We get three free workers and start in on a Library. Ask China to move the settler/spear and they agree, but it doesn't move. Both Lahore and Manp'o had border expansions last turn so we will see if they turn back. There is still five squares they can settle on and we will see if they turn or not. If they don't, you can almost bet there is going to be rubber there within the radius of the new city. If we push a temple in both cities we can probably make any new chinese city flip.

Hot1 650 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_650_ad.zip)

Excellent ! :goodjob:

Hotrod (on deck)
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis <---- up now 24 hrs for got it

The Mongols are on the ropes. Just as an FYI engineering will bring in a lot of gold from England and Japan. England has Theology but they are the only ones and we should get it from the GL soonish. The Mongols will not see their UU this game, they need only horses but they have none to use :lol:, with the MDI online and our cats rolling we should move through them pretty quickly, there is no jungle to take our first :lol:. Once the FP is online all the Mongols cities should be pretty productive.

Hotrod

Got it. I'll probably play and post Monday night.

:scan: - Will give Borealis until tomorrow before we move on.

I was hopping to get it tonight .

Hotrod

Hotrod, go ahead... I had an unexpected sticky situation come up, and I haven't been able to play my turns. I thought I would get a chance to play, but real life interfered yet again. :( I should be able to swap turns with you as it will be resolved tomorrow morning.

NP - Thanks for the heads up

I got it - Borealis on deck

My how things have changed :)

650 AD (0): Only thing I changed was to put Souel on Max food to grow in 3, SunZu in 24 :( from 18 before, hoping the extra citizen will pay off.

660 AD (1): Pusan builds pike starts another. FP completes in Ulsan :D. Japans Archer SoD is continuing toward the Mongol's. Perparing the units for a rush on the Mongol capital soon.

670 aD (2): Persia will most likely contact Japans soon. Hyangsan builds MI starts another. Taejon builds market starts cat.

680 AD (3): Continue moving pikes toward the south. And preping the MI for attack. The Japanese SOD was inching closer to Mongol lands, I ask him to leave he does but is now Cautious. With over 1200 gold to our name I look for infrastructure to rush. Hurry courthouse at Bombay. Hurry Aqueduct at Ulsan, it will grow very well and become very productive, with a temple and a market it will reach size 10 in no time.

690 aD (4): Bombay completes the courthouse, starts on Marketplace. Pyongsong completed a settler, starts marketplace, moving settler to the Western front. Ulsan builds aqueduct starts market.Paegam builds settler starts another.

Quick diplocheck finds that Persia has learned Engineering, decide to trade engineering to England for 14gpt and 17 gold and her map. Trade Engineering to Japan for 400 gold and his map. Spend some more gold on rushes in the north.

700 AD (5): Madras builds library starts pike. Kaesong builds temple starts marketplace. Suwon builds library starts walls. P'yongyang builds MI starts Heroic Epic. The attack begins - only a reg spear protecting the capital. Catipult were 0/4 :(. Take the capital of Kazan losing 1 elite MI to a reg spear :(. 3 resistors.

710 aD (6): MOving on Darhan.

720 AD (7): Take Darhan easily. with an extra elite, take a shot at a lone archer and get a great leader Onjo - this is a big question what to do with him. Turn research on Invention and Leo's in 4, costing 74 gold per turn, but I think worth it. We will get Leo's (via hero rush), and SunZu on a hand build. It will be a powerful combination.
Positioning remaing troops to move on Erdent and Tabriz.

730 aD (8): Postion to attack Eredent next turn, rush courthouse at Madras.

740 AD (9): Erdent falls will take Tabriz next turn. I let the Japan SoD keep on coming!! There wont be any Mongols left by the time they arrive.

750 AD (10): Tabriz falls and we have furs online our 4th lux. Invention next turn! The hero is in Ulsan ready to rush leo's. SunZu is 8 turns away at the Capital.

Mongols have 3 cities remaining 1 more will fall next turn the other two to follow shortly.

Along the way rushed various infrastructure. We also pulled Theology from the GL.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_750_ad.zip

I had purposely set Seoul to max shields to take turns off of the build of Sun Tzu's. Unless you have a lot of extra food, I have found it doesn't pay to try for one more pop point on a wonder build. (If one or two more citizens is all you will get, especially if it takes you out of WLTKD). When I first switched it was 35 turns at max food or 26 turns at max shields. As you can see, at the end of your turn it was a wash, as we still had 8 turns to go on Sun Tzu's.

Yep, noticed that too. It made no difference at all! We weren't even close to a WLTKD however. Cities that are smaller and building wonders I have seen cut the time to build down by growing faster or even adding workers. If anything the extra growth only added a couple gold. Clearly it wasn't worth it in this case.

Couple things: I didn't move the leader too rush a palace in Madras of Bombay. The original core cities need some courthouses first and Souel is on SunZu for 8 more turns. Leo's at this point will be a good wonder to get, coupled with Sun and our healthy economy, upgrades to muskets will be a breeze.

Hotrod (just finished)
Rowain (On deck)
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis <--- up now after the swap

Good crushing of Mongols :)

Question: Has any one started Sun-Tzu?

if so i would rush Sun-Tzu with the Leader and swap Seoul to Leo

Good Luck Borealis

Rowain

Yes they have but we were ahead because of the HE prebuild. If there is any question we have the gold to investigate the other cities just to make sure.

Another option is rushing Sistene's, completing Sun at Seoul and building Leo's at another already heavy sheild city. I believe I started at the HE again and have a few turns into it.

With luck we can kill the cascade by taking the only 2 wonders currently available and getting a jump on Leo's, possibly using a palace of HE pre-build to grab Bach's.

Hotrod

I agree that adding workers in can be a big boost to a wonder build. Unfortunately, we don't have enough workers to let us do too much of that. Because of our poor food start, we are way behind in the amount of workers I would like to see us have. Hopefully, now that we have taken over the more fruitful Indian lands, we can boost our worker numbers.

[Edit] What happened with the Chinese settler/spear pair?

Got it. :) I'll check back before I play them to double-check on the consensus on what to rush with the leader... right now it looks like rushing a wonder instead of a palace. Assuming we're safe building Sun Tzu's, should we rush Sistine or Leo's?

Leo's will give us good upgrade opportunities, but can be done without for lack of cash. Sistine will help us in overall happiness once our cities grow enough to need cathedrals. The question is: how much warmongering do we want to do? If we're planning on overrunning the continent, Leo's is a better choice to save us $$$ in the meantime, but Sistine would be more valuable for a SS launch.

If we decide to go for war: Japan and China are getting their dangerous UUs with Chivalry, and attacking them would mean either rushing for Knights before they get them or waiting until Military Tradition for cavalry. Given that many civs appear to have Monotheism and Feudalism, it's likely to pop from the GL soon, probably before Education. If we're continuing the war, we need

If we decide to go for peace, at least for the next few turns: We need workers and enough infrastructure to afford a cathedral and university in every city close enough to our FP/future palace site to be profitable. We should have at least 1 & 1/2 workers for every city, if not 2, until they are all developed, and then drop the rate to 1/city by merging them into cities. With that swath of jungle, we might want more. I'll post a count of workers, and how much we should probably have, when I play my turn, hopefully later tonight.

I don't think we need to get knights yet. Continue moving towards cavs and hwach'a before we take the war to the others. How well will the UU's fair against our newly traded muskets??

We have taken the Indians and Mongols using swords, cats and MI. Knights movement bonuses may not help us move through the jungle or Mountains to the NW. We can't really strike too far ahead because we need the cats to come along. I found the MI to be pretty effective, when I played vanilla I really miss them.

My vote: take out the Mongols and peacefully man all our cities "vulnerable" cities on the boarder with 2-3 muskets and prep our forces for cavalry and MI to move with our Hwach'a. We need to plan to get Smith's, with the number of markets. With the number of home grown lux we have now, cathedrals may not even be necessary until we get hospitals, lessening the benifit of Sistene's.

We could do with a few hundred years of peace, slowly build infrastructure and military for a big push after the UU of Japan and China become obsolete.

Hotrod, I like your idea overall. Does that mean that Borealis should get courthouses in the current core cities and rush the palace up in Madras or Bombay near the end of 10 turns? It sounds like we have a headstart on Sun Tzu and Leo, and Sistine will not be as valuable to us in the short run. We could let Japan or China build it and then take it from them later.

Nice turn, Hotrod, particularly getting the great leader. :D I'm tempted to vote for Sistines, myself. A more powerful wonder, IMO, since if pressed we would be able to afford critical upgrades. Still, Leo's would be nice, so I certainly wouldn't complain if we go that way. :p
As for the prospect of a knights war vs. golden aged ai's, it looks manageable on this map to me, given the likelihood of allying with either China or Japan and isolating the third power (which should be feasible, given our healthy treasury). Also agree we should make Smiths a high priority. (Among other considerations: it will trigger our golden age, since we already have a scientific wonder.)

edit: should have added: I do feel we should rush a wonder. The palace move does not seem critical to me yet, and can wait if necessary.

Also, remember that Japan has to have only iron for its UU. It currently has only one source that is in a border town and easily taken. If we are going to hit the Japanese, it would be better to do it sooner, and cut off the iron, than later, after they have built a bunch of Sammies.

[EDIT] or much later, after the Sammies are obsolete.....

Per Sirian "what can wait should wait" the palace move although better in the long run will be costly at the start. The move will improve more cities but smaller cities with less infrastructure, and will cost the original core cities initially without courthouses. I think the palace move is a good plan, not one that I normally do, however. It can wait until the Japanesse and China are destroyed.

When to take Japan - Maybe soon - if that is the case rush Leo's. Get Guns, upgrade and go get em.

Hotrod

Pre-turn ruminations: Diplomatic check reveals tech parity with Japan and that they haven’t hooked their iron up yet. They also have no cash to rush pikes/samurai with yet. Elizabeth has Chivalry, but no one else does. Everyone except Joanie is at tech parity, with her needing Engin and Feudalism, but having nothing to trade us for them- given spears against knights, she’s probably going to perish soon. Japan has 2 iron sources within practical reach, one needing a road to a mountain, and the other needing a colony as it is not within even the size 2 city radius of two cities in between them, so it will take them a while to catch up. They have a decent tech rate, and a nice swath of land to pick off if we can make it productive- the future palace move possibly a bit west of what we thought. Keeping China out of it will be tricky, but that’s for the next leader. I’m going to think that war is the best option for now, and rush Leo’s instead of Sistine. Real preparations for battle will happen after cleanup of the Mongol nation is complete. That, and getting rid of the massive stacks of Japanese units in our territory… if we could somehow get rid of them ahead of time :devil: that would take away all their offensive power.

750 AD (0) Inherited turn. Sariwhon swapped to pike, due in 12, from library as it has no defense. It would be ridiculous to lose a city to a lone warrior invading from a galley because it wasn’t defended. Lahore I leave alone, as it would take an absurdly long time to build a pike and it needs workers to clear out the jungle. We need a road to Haeju to upgrade its spear to a pike. I recommend we build another pike in another city, maybe P’yongsong, and send it there for defense as our outer cities will take the most in the counterattack. Suwon and Choju swapped to Pikes from walls (this can probably be changed by the next leader on their first turn if there turns out to be a reason.)

Sun Tzu status: I buy an updated WM from Japan for 5 gold, revealing no serious challengers for Seoul’s production due in 8 turns. The WM also reveals that Shimonoseki, the city with iron on its radius, also lacks a connection to the city net as well as the iron.

760 AD (1) We discover Invention and start research at Gunpowder at 6 turns and +15gpt for muskets/saltpeter. WLTK in Pusan. Inch’on builds marketplace and starts courthouse. Ulsan builds marketplace and Onjo rushes Leo’s.

Cats do 1 damage at Hovd and it is captured with wounds but no losses. It is too corrupt to build anything, so I set it to a worker factory and send the wandering pike near Kazan to it.

770 AD (2) Nam’po keeps building pikes. Ulsan starts Sistine, to grab it or get a prebuild for another wonder. With the FP there, it’ll keep its high production rate even if we move the palace, and is already the second-highest productive city after Seoul.
Spearman rushed in Suwon as upgrading it will be cheaper, and it frees up the horse there. Diplo check: No one has Invention, and no one has anything worthwhile to trade for it.
780 AD (3) Pusan builds Aqueduct; starts Courthouse. Suwon starts Walls. China starts Sistine in Tientsin, a tiny size 4 city that hasn’t expanded its boundaries recently. Our cat is 0/1 in bombing Choybalsan, but we capture it before the opportunistic Japanese single archer landing (galley) takes it.

790 AD (4) Hyangsan keeps building MI. Palace expansion! A forest, the rest of the middle portion of the palace, and the left wing are erected to the glory of the Korean empire. Catapults are 0/3 at Baruun-Urt, the last city of the Mongols, and I summon a MI from Hoyd.

800 AD (5) Japan’s SOD heads for their borders, away from former Mongol territory.
Bombay completes its marketplace, and starts building pikes. Japan starts Sistine in Kyoto, which might be a major challenger if it grows fast enough. Baruun-Urt falls, with no losses, and the Mongol hordes breathe their last.

810 AD (6) Delhi builds marketplace, starts pike. It will have a barracks by the time it builds (Sun Tzu in 2). Taejon builds temple, starts pike.

820 AD (7) We discover Gunpowder; start Chemistry at 6 turns for -8 gpt. Lahore keeps building workers. We have three sources of saltpepper in the north, with one already hooked up to the trade network (Chonju) and two waiting for roads (Sariwon, Delhi).

830 AD (8) Chivalry pops from the Great Library. Seoul builds Sun Tzu; starts Courthouse. WLTK day in . P’yongsong builds marketplace, starts courthouse. Japan, China, Persia, and England switch Sun Tzu builds to Sistine. Everyone except Joanie has Chivalry, including Japan, but no one else has Gunpowder yet. All the healthy MI are moving to our border near Japan in preparation for a strike there, though the Japan SOD is taking its time moving out of our territory. Mass upgrade of Spears to Muskets for 440 gold. Mass upgrade of Pikes to Muskets for 450 gold. This should encourage Japan to move its SOD away from our borders long enough for our MI to get up there. We’ll make the money back fairly quickly if necessary, but we’re better prepared for a counterattack now, and there will be one. The Japanese have saltpeter, but not hooked up, near Karachi- that city should be next after Shimonoseki.

840 AD (9) Karakorum builds marketplace, starts musket. Hyangsan keeps building MI. Paegam builds temple and starts marketplace.

850 AD (10) Namp’o builds courthouse, starts Palace prebuild for the next wonder we get. Ulanbataar builds temple, starts marketplace. The musket in Kazan moves south to cover our flanks and discourage AI single warrior landings.

France is in serious trouble and I think our peace with them is an additional reason why the rest of the world is annoyed/furious with us. That, and us being the power/tech leader. We have the tech lead, and no one has Education yet. With the speed Chivalry was passed around, we have to assume that the AI will sell it for near-nothing as none of the other AIs besides England really had anything at the time. Chemistry is due in 3 turns at 3 gpt. Our military advisor now says that we have a ‘strong’ military as compared to Japan and an ‘average’ military as compared to China. We may have to buy Mao off to avoid him ganging up on us, or else heavily reinforce along his border. Sariwan and Lahore should be the next priority cities for muskets, as we need to have a garrison in each city for tactical and preventative reasons. Also, we should send a musket/MI pair to the iron source on the western side of Japanese territory to fortify/deny it there.

850 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_850_ad.sav)

Nicely done getting rid of the Mongols :D

One question though: When did the rest of the world make contact? Did we initiate it or did the Persian ships finally hit Japan?

Hotrod
Rowain <---- up now
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis

Got it

Rowain

PS: If possible please zip the save ;)

IIRC - Borealis mention in the GOTM forum that her zip program killed almost all her save games. She may be reluctant to use it again. I too have had problems with zip programs, tried the one built into XP and that started to work some of the time. Tried WinZip but got annoyed by the register me now reminders, finally settled on a free program Enzip - so far so good.

Hotrod

Persia did send a galley, and has several more lurking about- one near where Mongolia used to be. Xerxes seems to be getting restless about being trapped on his island. He'll probably colonize the few tundra islands left uninhabited first, but he might decide to help Liz carve up Joanie. Garrisons for our coastal towns are important to avoid him, or someone else, deciding to opportunistically take our city- with most of the world furious with us for destroying the Mongols, we'd have to bribe a great deal to stop them from declaring on us. With Education coming soon, we'll need help in tech to keep up until we get Smith's and an improved cash flow.

Sorry about the unzipped save- I did have problems with a zip program and I'll have another zip program soon. I hope the rest of you have better luck with the GOTM.

I didn't know that zip makes problems but I do know that in some Games problems occured when the unzipped save was uploaded.

But this time it worked so..

At the beginning I check and see that only France need s Iron. Since our WM is outdated. After making sure that we have a safe tradingline (= not through Japanese-teritorry) I sell MAo Dyes for WM+16 gold. He has 2 Irons connected Japan o but they have an active deal running so I guess Mao sells Toku Iron. During the next Upkeep phase. Japan declares War on Mao. :crazyeye: He attacks the one who provided him with Iron :crazyeye:

So I decide the time is ripe to teach Toku a lesson. Since his Archerstacks are near some underdefended Cities and nothing increases WW more then lossing cities I decide to wait till we are safe. So War was declared in 920 AD . His Archers are no problem for MDI and the City of Toyama is soon under Siege. Sadly it inhabits a reg Spear from Hell who killed 2 elites but then the City is ours and thats it for these ten turns. Else build some Infra .

Concerning Tech: We are the techleader and 5 turns from Mil.Trad. England and Mao lack Chemistry and PErsia lacks Gunpowder. France is soon dead. Education has not been developed.

I build 1 new City on the eastcoast as a fishing-village and to claim the tiles.

I would rush the Palace in Madras (if we get a Leader that is) but we are doing fine with the current situation too.

The Game (http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_950_ad.zip)

Good Luck UU (yes we have now our UU :) )

Rowain

Hotrod
Rowain
UU <------ up now
Mystery (on deck)
Meldor
Borealis

Take it to the Japanese!!! Rowian have you seen any Sammies?? How is the Hwach'as?

Got it. I will play tomorrow morning.
The rising Koreans will never consent to servitude within Japan's "Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere"! Our hwach'a will fill the skies with terrible fire, smiting our enemies!

@ Hotrod

No have not seen any Samies nor any Pikes I guess the Iron deal was not long enough to build many Samies. Perhaps those he had are now in China or dead.

Have not used the Hwach'a since I got Toyama just in the last turn and had no chance to upgrade those Cats. The on Hwach'a we already have is on the road north.

Rowain

PS:Out of curiosity Did you start the Game with Culture-link On?

I don't recall - If I did it was purely by accident. My first attempt had the darn double production on :blush:. Leaving Cultural link on as well may not be out of the question. It sure looks like it was on :mutant:. Very few games have it on these day - Lets just consider it another variant ;)

Hotrod

No need to be ashamed. I didn't intend to critisize you :)

I was just curious if this is the way culture link works

Rowain

NO harm Rowain - Didn't take it as a criticism. This is the first SG I have setup and so far I think it is moving very smothly with a clear shot at victory. I want the experience to be fun for all and maybe just maybe I will start another SG in the future. Right now I have my hands full with Lk37, Sirians Inf game and trying to keep Lk33 going. (I hate to see games die ;))

I enjoy playing with everyone who is participating and I think there has been some very good discussion. That is one thing I have grown to enjoy the most :D.

Hotrod

Originally posted by hotrod0823
I think it is moving very smothly with a clear shot at victory. I want the experience to be fun for all

It is fun and we will win :)

Hotrod0823
and maybe just maybe I will start another SG in the future. Right now I have my hands full with Lk37, Sirians Inf game and trying to keep Lk33 going.

With your Gamelist you really have your Hands full :lol:
2 AW at the same time could be really timeconsuming. Additionally Both are now in the Hot Phase and the Epic-season has started too. (BTW thats the Reason I had to pass on Sirian Infantry-game and on LK38 simple No Time :( )


Rowain

For my turn report, I will stick to major events.
Pre-turn survey: we are ranked no. 1 on the powergraph, England 2d, China 3d.
Our army is large, but almost entirely on foot (only 1 horseman, no knights) -- which will be an issue since (I predict) a major confrontation looms with China/riders.
Our forces are also concentrated on along our eastern border, arrayed in southern and central strongpoints. No surprise there. Still, I think we will need to begin to concentrate some defensive/military potential north (as the Japan war allows), to deter Chinese aggression and prepare for possible a possible Sino-Korean conflict.
Many of our cities are concentrating on cultural/infrastructure builds, which is okay for now. Except that military tradition is due in 5 turns. I switch a few cities to knights, since it seems a shame not to take advantage of a modest round of inexpensive Leo-funded upgrading. A few military units that don't look immediately vital in other sectors are dispatched north.
I consider allying with China -- but reject the notion: Japan already seems weak, and we don't want to strengthen Mao's hand.

Alrighty, locked and loaded .....

Japan fields a few longbows.

Education comes in after 960 ad -- so the Great Library has petered out.

970 ad: Karachi besieged. Our first Hwach'a strike misses, but we take the city handily. I do lose an elite Med. Inf, though. Got overeager and attacked a longbow on a hill across a river.

Catapults upgraded, btw.

As defenses garrison in northern coastal cities, several Chinese galleys that had been skirting the coast turn around and head east. Hmmm.... was Mao going to strike there?

990 we uncover the secrets of military tradition, direct our science funding to the mysteries of banking. Smith's should be a priority. Do we have a pre-build? I would suggest bending Ulsan to this purpose. It's building Sistine's now, can be switched to palace if some other civ finishes the Chapel (now distinctly possible, given the post Sun's cascade).
Several knights upgrade to cavalry.

1000 a team heading for Shimonoseki to sabatoge iron discovers the Chinese have taken the city! :mad: Still, no iron for Toku. Chinese riders have taken the field, though.

Inter-turn: France requests alliance vs. England. Sure. NOT.

I start a few temple builds around this point. Happiness is becoming a problem in our larger cities, and I imagine we will want cathedrals eventually.

With the Chinese apparently overriding the Japanese to the north, and moving much more quickly to new targets (our hwach'a movement is hampered by mountains and slow road-building), I shift our main military thrust south, targetting Edo. At least our hwach'a can thread through a mountain pass down here. Still, by the time our bombardment forces reach the city, Chinese riders are already attacking there! :eek:

The Japanese spear defenders hold long enough for me to lay seige, though. On the outskirts of the city in 1040 ad, an elite med inf takes out a longbow and Syngman Rhee emerges from the battle! [party]

Edo holds, just barely, in 1050! I play one extra turn, and the city falls in 1060.

The save:
Hot1 1060 ad (http://civfanatics.com/uploads3/Hot1_1060_ad.zip)

Some concluding suggestions: I think the Chinese are going to hit us soon. We have beefed up a bit in our northern sector, and have several emergency cavalry counterstrike units available up there.
I did not raise Edo. It has 5 resistors -- so the next leader can abandon it if it seems likely to flip. Still, it is not closely pressed culturally, and is some distance from the Japanese capital.
The Japanese are collapsing. Still, I don't think we want to make peace with them, because then the Chinese will roll right through. We need to keep as much territory out of Mao's hands as possible.
As far as our new leader is concerned, I leave it to the next player. My preference would be to hold off on the palace move for now. We will get economics in just a few turns, and if we rush Smith's, we not only get a very valuable wonder, but we also launch our golden age -- perfect timing for building up a major conflict with China. Normally I hate holding onto leaders, and I would hate to miss out on the Chapel (which might happen if an off-continent civ builds it, rather than China), but we have an entire continent in our grasp, IMO. War with the Chinese will not be easy, but with superior tech (cavalry) and golden age production, it should be decisive.

Sorry, let me try again with the download link:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_1060_ad.zip

War with Japan ! It helps that he can't build Sammy!!! :D! I am not surprised on the number of horseman/knights we have used with the bombardment requirement fast units cannot strike cities but can be utilized to attack units coming at us. Knights longevity is usually not too long anyway but no sense wasting the Leo / SunZu wonders. Cavs are the leader by far for this era and will be a must for war with China.

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery <---- up now
Meldor (on deck)
Borealis

Here's a little window on our world:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_1060_ad

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_1060_ad.JPG

couldn't see your pic so I found it, your jpg - was uploaded as JPG. I have had that happen to me many times.

Thanks, Hotrod! I'm still getting the hang of this.

The more I reflect on our situation, the more strongly I become convinced we want to:
a) get econ and rush Smith's Trading Company;
b) trigger our golden age;
c) take advantage of the booste in production to challenge the Chinese as soon as we can amass imposing forces.

Right now they are trailing badly on tech -- I believe they still lack Chemistry (although I can't remember if I checked as I passed off the game). We want to hit them with cavalry, and thereby negate their riders -- and strike before they get cavalry. (They have horses, of course; they also have salt).

Also, we want to hit before they manage to strike any useful alliances. Right now, with the state of sea travel being what it is, we have no need to fear involvement by any powers off-shore. Not even Persia has managed yet to plant a beachhead on our continent.

got it

Preturn, a few switches. Delhi to temple as military that takes longer than 10 turns at this point seems a waste of time. Kaesong is on a 14 turn run to Musketman, but there is nothing good to switch it to at this time. Chonju will take 60 turns to a courthouse, but Bombay will have the Palace long before that. I change to Temple. War weariness appears to have hit, as no less than 10 cities will riot next turn. I drop science to 50% and raise lux to 10%. We lose a turn on economics, but only one entertainer necessary to prevent city rioting at no gpt loss.

IT China builds the Sistine Chapel in New Beijing!!! Hmmm, I wonder who got a leader.

(1)1070AD I wake a settler in Kazan and send it toward Japan. I
chicken out...Edo only has a barracks remaining from Japanese rule. Why risk the flip when we have two unused settlers in the area? I abandon the city and resettle it. We switch Ulsan to the military academy with only a 14 shield loss. The leader will be saved for Smith's.

IT Karakorum builds Temple, switches to musket. Seoul builds university switches to musket. Bombay builds temple, switches to bank. We build the Military Academy in Ulsan and change to Temple.

(2)1080AD Economics drops from 4 to 2 turns...interesting, I diplo
check with everyone and no one has it. I guess we're just better
learners this year:)

IT Inch'on builds aqueduct, switches to Temple. Some military completes with more military on order.

(3)1090ADMany Chinese troops fill the territory around our Edo replacement city. I believe they are on the way to some Japanese territories...if not, they will take the city as I am pushing on toward Osaka. I rush the cav in Namp'o so we can build Smith's there next turn.

IT The Chinese take Osaka and burn it down! This works for us as we have a settler already waiting and we take no military losses to get the spot. We get Econ and swap to Astronomy.

(4)1100AD My first Hwach'a shot...fails. Despite the failed shot, our elite MDI take Fukushima without loss. Wow, our cav could sure use some faster artillery support. What a slowdown! (but I asked for it!).

IT We get Smith's. Next leader will swap the palace location. And, we get our Golden Age. We have enough military to eliminate Japan, so I will focus on getting core cities up to Banks and Universities.

(5)1110AD Just some positioning of our artillery for next turn's
assault.

IT Dammit, Paegam riots on me even with the increased luxury of the GA. This city gave me troubles earlier as well.

(6)1120AD My second Hwach'a shot, into Nagasaki, hits. We take
Nagasaki, but I lose a Musket thinking it was a longbow. What a
dummy. Hwach'a shots in to Matsuyama go 1 for 3...and Matsuyama is ours.

IT England eliminates France. China razes Satsuma. The Persians
beat us to Astronomy!

(7)1130AD I can back off science to 10% for a nice one turn economy of 479. Not much else this turn since China is getting to Japan before we are.

IT OOPS...they sign a peace treaty. We get Astronomy and go for
Physics in 4 at 142gpt.

(8)1140AD Ok, Japan is left with 3 cities.

IT We lose a horse to a longbow.

(9)1150AD We won't get there on my turn, but I am massing for the run on Kyoto. Next leader should have easy time dispatching the Japanese. The key will be how we deal with the Chinese.

IT Some infrastucture projects already completing under the GA. Am currently building all infrastructure.

(10)1160AD Ok, we have a settler going up the former Japanese coast. Looks like we may be racing against the Chinese to get a city up there. I think we should settle at least 1, if not 2, squares up the coast from the former Japanese settlement. Get the free jungle clear. GA will last about 14 more turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_1160_ad.zip

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor < ----- up now
Borealis (on deck)

Haven't checked out the save yet but sounds good so far!! :)

Would be conserned about China though :(.

[EDIT] Got it.

1160 AD (Pre-turn)
There is room on the English land mass to get in a colony, if we aren't too late. Switch three cities to a Caravel, Musketman, and settler. Rush all three. Change one city in the south to a caravel as well, as the Japanese have a fourth city on a cold island down there.
(I) Two Japanese archers attempt to kill two of our Cav and they both fail. The Chinese units are parading back to their lands with their new slaves trailing behind them.

1170 AD (1)
Make deal with Mao to send him dyes for 40g and 12 gpt. I would sell him gems, but he does have enough money or income. No bombard units at Kyoto until next turn, so the rest of the troops wait. Have to turn Lux up to 30% and set entertainers in some of the more corrupt cities so that we don't have a mass of uprisings.
(I) All's quite. We start on Magnetism in four. Start a bunch of Unis.

1180 AD (2)
Make another deal with Mao for gems at 35g and 15 gpt. Movement to get ready for the assualt on Kyoto.
(I) Nada

1190 AD (3)
Kyoto is ours along with the Great Wall. I just wish we had some cities that had wall and could still use them. Oh well. It generates culture. I make peace with Japan, taking the samll city on the island and all of their meager treasury. I didn't think it worth it right now to pursue the last two cities as it would have taken almost 10 turns to get the Hwa in place. War Weariness is to high to waste the production during our GA. Taegwon is founded on the river one square up from where it was originally. The river trumped the free jungle clear. Rush the Uni in Madras. Get to frop the lux tax to 10% and fire all entertainers except those in 4 cities.

1200 AD (4)
War weariness drops again, so I get to fire all entertainers except 1 in Kyoto. Start Palace build in Madras (167 turns) but it needs a lot of shield improvement. It will be a long time before it builds. May wait until we are throughthe GA and can generate a leader. Rush the temple in Kyoto, I want to get those spices on-line. I would sell Mao saltpeter, as he has some in his territory, but he doesn't have enough cash.
(I) We get Mag and start ToG, due in 4.

1230 AD (5-7)
Quite, except the stinking Persians settle on my toehold spot one turn before I get there. I will go aheaad and squeeze one in anyway. Rush the Library in Kyoto. We should get the spices on-line next turn.

1240 AD (8)
Get spices on-line. Lux tax to 0% and no more entertainers.

1250 AD (9)
To'Hold built on the other land mass. We will need to rush a Library and Temple here. The age of traging begins. Send Furs and Dyes to England for Navigation, WM and 174g. We also send her wines for gems and 428g. This will get us to WLTKD in Madras. Gems and dyes with 410g to Persia for Silks.
(I) ToG discovered, steam is started, due in 4 turns.

1255 AD (10)
We are rocking. With WW gone and the new luxes coming in WLT(Meldor)D breaks out all across the land.

Our GA is perfect. If we can get Steam in 4 and Industrialization in 4, we will be on our way. We are at least two techs ahead of everyone else, we slhould be able to build all of the wonders from here on out. Cop's is due in 11.

Hot1 1255 AD Saved game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_1255_ad.zip)

[EDIT] Corrected the date of the last turn.

For those interested:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1255.JPG

Hotrod (on Deck)
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis <---- up now

Kyoto is ours along with the Great Wall. I just wish we had some cities that had wall and could still use them. Oh well. It generates culture.

Uhm bothtime No. IIRC Great Wall expires with Metallurgie and captured Wonders don't generate culture.

So I hope Kyoto is starved and won't flip. Anyway we rock :)

If we can get Newton too the AI won't have a chance to close the Science gap.


So its time to consider how we win the Game. Space or Military?

Rowain

Got it.

I think culture is also on the table with cheap Universities and all that gold to rush cultural buildings.

Looks like if we take china within the next 20-30 turns we should have the entire continent, rails, Hoover and Sufferage. We can easily bring it to England. Domination may only require us to take Persia. I don't have nor do I use Mapstat so I am not sure how much territory we have right now or how much we gain by taking china.

England is clearly our closest rival in territory, power, and culture but they are behind in tech, they still lack Physics, MT, Nationalism and soon Steam. Our goal I think should still be to grab the continent and see how we stack up against England at that point. Our GA is well timed!! :goodjob: all!

I think our goal right now should be to build up or military in our core cities (move them to the front lines near china), get our rails on line, and continue building infrastructure in our smaller cities to increase our culture and research potential.

We are in great postion for any victory we choose.

Hotrod

My thoughts.....

We need to keep checking with China and sell them saltpeter before they get theirs hooked up. We need to get the second spice source hooked up so we can sell it to them as well (or maybe England). Let them finance our infrastructure.

At this pint in the game we are betteroff focusing on tech and build infrastructure vs, building up military. Once we have rails and factories in place the military build up will be easy. We can still build cav in those cities that run out of things to build, but I would not place it on a priority, unless China gets more threatening.

We have treaties in place to keep us from attacking China for the next 18 or so turns. During that time we can rush factories and be ready to wipe them off the face of the map. Currently the bombard units we have are too slow and too limited in range to fight a war effectively in a short period of time. Short wars are essential for us if we are to stay a republic. If I had continued the war with Japan, we would have been better switching back to Monarchy, and we would have lost a lot of the benefit of our GA.

We could use a lot more workers! There are still big cities in need of improvements. I pulled a lot of our slave labor away from the colonies and back to the core to get our main cities up to standard. If a city get to a point where it has nothing to build that is urgent, peal a worker or tow off of it. These workers built now will more than repay the effort when we start laying rails. This is where we accelerate our economy and leave the others in the dust. At the end of our GA - ToE push, we should go from being 2-3 techs ahead to being 7-8 techs ahead. Then we can chose which way we want to finish it off.

Summary - Tech, Infrastructure, Workers, Rails. Military will come as a natural extension to these things.

Very much agree, infrastructure is the key. With rails coming soon moving our Hwach'a will be considerably easier. Once our factories complete the core will be pushing out cavs quickly making us ready for the inevitable war with China. 18 turns of infrastructure building will make war that much easier.

Hotrod

I'll fall in line with Meldor and others: we should concentrate on industrializing our cities and building out our railnet now.
I had originally thought we might want a quicker strike at China. But 1) we have already built up a strong technology lead (I was surprised -- hadn't expected this 'til a bit later); and 2) our military campaigns tend to take a long time to develop (because of the bombardment requirement). For these reasons, and because our overall strategic situation seems so comfortable, we should make the next campaign rail-driven.
As for what kind of victory we should be targetting, it seems we have our choice. I'd favor a space launch, I guess -- just because I have more experience with military conquest, and it seems more mechanical.
We will have to see how things develop, of course. I'm open to possibilities.

I agree with meldor.
And as it is I would say we kiss the Move Palace- idea good Bye.

Looking at our Income now and our tech pace I no longer think that we will profite from moving the Palace away from our most productive and most trade-rich Cities.


Rowain

We certainly don't have to move the palace to win the game...but in its current location it is really only benefiting 3 or 4 cities. If we move it to Madras, all of the fertile Indian lands come into play. Probably a moot point now, but if we had a great leader with nothing better to do the palace move would help.

I don't think we want to build any wonders in Madras as we have a few other cities that can build wonders much quicker. By starting the palace now by hand there we are locking ourselves into a palace move all beit an expensive one. The other thing is losing a prebuild for Hover, ToE and Sufferage. With the tech lead and the soon to be killed by Cap's and Newton's all of those can be built by hand in our core cities with little or no opposition.

Rails only makes us stronger, we will grow faster allowing more workers and citizens. We may not even need hospitals but they can't hurt. At what point do we get Stock exchanges? Those should be a high priority in the core cities they are free and allow Wall Street for a little extra income ;).

Hotrod

The palace build in Madras is not so far along that it can't be switched to something else and a palace prebuild for something else started elsewhere. However, I think we are far enough along that we don't need the pre-builds anymore. We should be able to build US, ToE and Hoovers without them. This is of course in a city that has the required shields and factiries and possibly a coal plant in place temporarily.

I have for the most part given up on wall street, except in SP games. In most SGs, by the time the Stockmarkets are built and WS is completed, the 50gpt for the interest is not going to effect the outcome of the game. By then, most economies are generating 400-1000gpt by themselves, depending on map size.
IIRC, our income was 300+gpt. However, that is in the GA and will drop when we are out. Not that WS isn't good, it just doesn't have the same priority as getting ToE and Hoover's.
As for the type of victory....
Diplomatic - to me this is less than tasty...just pay them off or declare war on England, buy the alliances before they do, and then ask for the vote. Too much of an escape hatch feeling to me.
Space Race - Is an ok ending, it probably ranks with Domination. Not as tasty as Conquest but not as wimpy as Diplo.
Conquest - My favorite....of course, it can get boring in the late stages.
Histograph - Never.....

@ Mystery13: We have a good FP and a well developed Core Moving the palace would mean we corrupt this core and get perhaps Cities without many pop and which need a lot Buildings done first to get ahead of our current state.

This is just something to consider. I haven't looked at the game lately so I don't know how developed our maybe new core is. If there are many well developed and Pop-rich cities around Madras it is better to move it if not not.


As for Victories: I wouldn't take Diplo.
And I doubt we get Culture fast enough to prevent this game from becoming very boring.

For Military: With our bombard restriction we can't move that fast through enemy-territory as we would without it so it can be abit slow but perhaps it is the most interesting way now as the
Space-race won't be a race. With our Economic-power we can perhaps launch before the AI is in Modern :D


Rowain

Pre-turn: The consensus seems to be to not bother moving the palace, and I agree- grabbing Hoover and ToE would seal our win, and moving it would endanger that. I hurry the Library in To'Hold as I'd like to get it producing another defender and a harbor in case the AI decides to evict it from the continent.

As for the future win possibilities, a cultural win would require military action at this point, as England is almost at culture parity with us right now. We'd have to conduct a successful sea invasion to reduce her culture to pull it off, so we might as well just go for the long-term SS launch/rail-based campaign and not go straight for cultural buildings.

Lahore is swapped to a rifle and hurried; a Persian caravel was recently sighted nearby and Xerxes is exactly the type to think one city easy pickings if it's undefended, never mind the counterattack. If we're going to wait for a rail net, we need to not leave gaping holes like these to trigger a war in the meantime. The AI is silly about situations like this. A Musket is also sent to protect Ulsan, our FP city, which is currently undefended. Losing that would royally screw us over, so Namp'o sends its extra musket over to help. Again, we can't leave cities undefended, especially coastal ones.

(1) Seoul Colosseum->Magellan's Voyage Lahore Rifleman-> Courthouse Taejon University->Courthouse To'Hold Library->Harbor. Persia starts Magellan's, but will take forever to complete it in its present location. Seoul starts it both as a cascade killer and as an aid to future conquest if we decide to go that route. Ulsan will probably finish Copernicus in time to build Newton's before any of the AI get it, and stacking those two wonders is usually better. If the next leader disagrees, Seoul can be swapped to Newton.

Lahore is swapped to a rifle and hurried; a Persian caravel is nearby and Xerxes is exactly the type to think one city easy pickings if it's undefended, never mind the counterattack. If we're going to wait for a rail net, we need to not leave gaping holes like these to trigger a war in the meantime. The AI is silly about situations like this.

Madras swapped to bank as we've decided to put off the palace move for a while and there are many higher-producing shield cities that would do better for Universal Suffrage.

Also, a Persian Caravel shows up 1 turn away from possibly landing troops next to Lahore. It's a good thing I rushed that rifleman.

(2) Interturn: Xerxes lands troops next to Toe-Hold. Evidently he thinks we're weak, or some such nonsense... this is why we can't leave cities undefended. The Persian caravel near Lahore notes the rifle in the city and backs off.

Hyangsan University->Cathedral. Mass upgrade of Muskets to rifles for 760 gold- we probably want this war over quickly, and we need the AI to perceive us as strong. To'Hold hurries a rifle in case Liz decides to join the festivities there. I tell the 2 longbowmen and horseman near To'Hold to get out.... and Xerxes declares war. I do not buy any AI into the war, as Liz and Mao are too powerful already to risk them grabbing the Persian continent.

(3) Interturn: Xerxes loses a longbow and a horse against our now elite musket.

Pyongsong Courthouse->Cathedral. Namp'o Colosseum-> Paegam University->Colosseum. Kaesong Courthouse->University. To'Hold Rifle->Barracks.

The new rifle at To'Hold kills the Persian longbow, earning promotion to vet status.

Slider MM gets us 494 gold and SP next turn. Golden Ages are nice.

(4) Interturn: Persians land knight + longbow pair on mountain near To'Hold.

SP discovered; research started on Industrialization at +145 gpt in 4 turns. The Hanging Gardens are obsolete. Kazan Courthouse->Cathedral. P'yongyang University->Cathedral. Ulaanbaatar Temple->Courthouse. Darhan Aqueduct->Cathedral. Erdenet Temple->Market.

The trade advisor says that "[she]'s not even supposed to be here today", and shows that we have 1 coal source. A scan of the map reveals another near Lahore and another near Kaesong. Persia appears to lack coal, but the other AI has it.

(5) Interturn: GA ends. :( Bombay Cathedral->Colosseum. Inch'on Bank->University. Even with the GA ending we have Industrial in 4 turns with +50 gpt.

(6) Karakorum Cathedral->Palace prebuild for Universal. Fukushima Temple->Marketplace.

(7) Taegu Courthouse->Market. The English start Magellan's. Diplocheck reveals that everyone has Navigation, and lacks ToG, MT, and Magnetism. Liz sells me Printing Press for 225 gold.

(8) China trades WM with us. He is furious.
Hoyd Temple->Market. Taejon Courthouse->Cathedral.

(9) Industrialization researched. Research started on Medicine at 5 turns at 49 gpt- 4 turn research means a loss of 33 gpt and the next leader can probably tweak for it if necessary. Delhi Bank->Cathedral. Nam'po Cavalry->Factory. Once a city has a cathedral, from now on we need to build factories. Several Colo-building cities are swapped to factories.

(10) Pusan Cathedral->Factory. Persia will now talk to us. Diplo check reveals that the AI now has MT, but not Democracy- I should have held off buying PP until a possible peace deal. I'm going to leave the choice of peace now or peace later to the next leader. Medicine has dropped to 3 turns cost.



1305 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1305_ad.sav)

Persia Attackes us :lol:, the bombardment wrinkle will require us to do a few things to take the war to them. We need a couple frigites to aid in bombing their coastal cities. If we get Magellen's attacking Persia will not be as tough, there GL is done with Magnetism so their extra ship movement will be no longer possible.

Borealis well done spotting trouble from Persia :goodjob: losing a coastal city because we failed to get defenders there could've given Persia a head start against us. I realize they wouldn't have held the city long but a loss of a cities is still not good :(. Don't think Democracy is in the cards for us right now, did you try to sell PP to the rest, if not I will see what the rest will give us for it. Another thing : did losing the HG cause us to turn up the lux or is our luxuries able to make everyone still happy. I just wonder how long we can hold out before the WW kicks in it was no time at all when we were at war with Japan.

Hotrod (got it ) <---- currently playing
Rowain (on Deck)
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis

I will check to see if anyone has any other comments before I play tonight.

Liz sells me Printing Press for 225 gold

:eek: for what ? why? what did you want PP for? and why spending it to the biggest AI there?

Please don't buy unnecessary techs and especially not from our biggest Opponent. This spending will allow England to increase its Science and so they will close the gap sooner now.

We don't need any Democracy. At our size we have a very good chance to draw at least 7 turns of Anarchy to switch to a nearly useless Goverment from which we would need to revolt again when some stupid AI declares War on us.



Anyway good job at defending our Cities :)

Rowain

The only benifit of getting the PP is to sell it as far as I can tell. Not sure if Borealis bought it for that reason or not. If we haven't sold it yet I will try to get all I can for it. I agree Democracy is out of the question.

Hotrod

@Hotrod:

WW comes with losses and when you are the Agressor. When the AI declares War the people are more happy in the beginning of the War. If we don't lose many Units and if we don't lose any Cities WW would take a long time to kick in.

Anyway I would suggest taking peace now and wait for Bombers and Tanks to teach them a lesson.

Rowain

I doubt we will get anything for peace right away. I will have to check out the state of our army and see if I can do anything at all on the offensive. I don't think I will be able to and peace will most likely be the best option.

Hotrod

It does sound as though peace with honor, but not necessarily with tribute, would be best for us. We can repay Xerxes for his impudence later -- when we are done industrializing, and when we have many more types of bombardment units at our disposal. Prolonging this war at this point in time sounds fruitless. We are not yet in position to wrest serious territory from Persia. And more to the point, we want to concentrate on preparations for the coming Sino-Korean conflict. Coping with war weariness might slow those preparations.

I know buying PP was a bad move, as I stated later on- we might have managed to get it from Xerxes later. My apologies for the :smoke:. The only benefit is that Liz is now polite and probably unlikely to ally with Xerxes against us.

Also, how long do we have before our lux deals run out? Most of them, as I remember, are with Mao, who is Furious with us...

The main problem with Persia is that Xerxes doesn't have much to give us for peace. It might be worth getting, in any case, when we go to war with Mao to avoid double WW, but as it's going he can't take any of our cities. If we decide to take the war to him, we'll need a navy, which Magellan's will help with- but we should have most of the resources in the game by now with the sheer amount of good land we own. Also, the AI is not that far away from the Industrial Age, which means Persian rifles by the time we get there- we could handle it, but we're probably better off saving those units for Mao.

Only played 9 to even out the turns to 1350 AD

Hot 1 from 1305 -

1305 AD (0): Scoping out the situation and decide to focus on Factories in the core cities and culture on our boarders. Change P'yongyang from Cathedral to Factory. Change Taejon to factory. Change Hyansan to factory. Change Pyongsong to bank. Change Delhi to courthouse. Hurry temple at Tokch'on for 100 gold. Hurry temple at Ch'ongfu for 172 gold. MM Ulsan to get Cop's in 3 instead of 4. Offer X-man peace and we get his 39 gold. Being that I just made peace with Persia why not prepare to finally take out Japan, move our units to take Japan in 3 turns after the peace runs out.

1310 AD (1): Tokch'on builds temple starts courthouse. Ch'ongfu builds temple starts courthouse.

1315 AD (2): Tabriz completes marketplace start unversity. Working on the railroad. Medicine due next turn.

1320 AD (3): Learn Medicine start electricity. Ulsan builds Cop's starts Newton's due in 20. China Cascades to Magellan's :(. So do the Persians. Declare on Japan.

1325 AD (4): Kyoto understanably riots, Kazan builds cathedral starts factory. Pyongsong builds bank starts factory. Karachi builds courthouse starts temple. Take the 2 spears out at Nagoya and produce a leader :D , sending him home, don't know what to rush but will decide soon.

1330 AD (5): X-man wants a MPP, ROP and 1 gpt. Not right now sorry :). Madras builds bank starts worker. Ulaanbaatar builds courthouse starts university. Kaesong builds university starts Rifleman. Move Hwach'a in position to attack the last Japanese city next turn. Leader is heading to the core cities.

1335 AD (6): Easily take the Japan capital. England looks threatening on the other continent. Hurry walls at To-hold. Not sure what to think about that :hmm:. Will rush Newton's next turn, that will free Ulsan to get another wonder later and will kill the cascade after Magellen's completes at Seoul in 6 turns.

IBTW: England declares after spending last turn within our boarders, 3 knights attack and retreat. We lose our wines :(.

1340 AD (7): Madras builds worker starts rifle. Wonsan courthouse starts rifle. I decide to hurry Newtons in Ulsan. Walls complete at To'Hold, start barracks again. Trade China ToG for Democracy, 38 gpt, 90 gold and WM. Trade X-Man ToG and dyes for silks. Up Research to 100% to get Electricty next turn -94 gold.

IBTW: After a valiant fight the musket and Rifle at To'Hold fall to the English :(. They will pay for that soon enough.

1345 AD (8): Learn Electricity start Scientific Method Due in 4 at 70% and +107 gold :D. Newton's completes start factory. Rush Factories at Pyongyang and Hysangsan for 300 total.

1350 AD (9): P'yongyang build factory starts rifle. Hysangson builds factory starts rifle. Paegum builds factory starts cavalry. Trade Persia Gems for 12 gpt, and 40 gold. Scinetific method in due in 3 at 60% and +209gpt.

Decide to end here to even up the turns. The rail net is started but not with any real focus, just started building towards the core. Japan is no more, china has accitive cavalry and riders but none entered our lands. Persia is now Annoyed but willing to pay for trades, so is China for that matter. England really wanted that lone city and sent everything to get it, about 15 knights and MI. We are soo far ahead in tech we can get all the Wonders Easily. Took Newtons with the leader because Magellen's is in the bag with 3 turns remaining, Sufferage is started but not critical and completing Newtons and Cop's in the same city of Ulsan makes that city a science powerhouse at 76 beaker at 60%. It will also free that city up for Hoover or ToE.

Good luck to Rowain.

Here is the Save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1350_ad.zip



Hotrod
Rowain <---- up now
UU (on Deck)
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis

Outstanding turn, Hotrod! The Japanese are no more! Our civilization is already dominant, and positioned for whatever path we choose to take. If this were a solo game, my attention would already be starting to drift.
Looking back over our history, I'm trying to decide when and where, exactly, we surged past rival AI civs. As recently as our previous war with Japan, China seemed like a serious contender. Now they exist at our sufferance, awaiting almost certain conquest.

It was strange. I was looking over our existing deals (love the new detail screen) and noticed that Peace was up with Japan in 3 turns and I had an idle stack ready to strike. Taking the last 2 cities with zero loses, spears don't hold up well to cavs and Hwach'a :lol:. I was a bit taken a back by Englands aggressive move on our lone city on the other continent but not really surprised. We still are not ready to move on the other land mass. We need ships, ironclads and many more troops !!!

China on the other hand will be a tought nut to crack but with our railnet started, not even close to anything usable yet, moving on China will be swift. We have such a tech lead that we can sell our obosolete techs to Persia or China at 2nd civ prices and uses that money to fund our research. We are already at 4 turns per tech with a large gold per turn income. Meldor was not kidding when he said we can get all the wonders without prebuilds. The AI is that far behind :D. I rushed Newton's with the leader, traded ToG for 2nd civ gold to China. After Magellen's completes the cascade is dead, no other civ is anywhere close to getting to Industrialization.

The question is do we take it to England, or make peace soonish and build up to take the continent, or peacefully build our space ship and launch.

Based on our variant, we almost have to make peace with England and attack China. China has been pissed with us for years. I could see us boating a huge stack of troops and artillery over to England only to have Mao declare on us! The "speed" of
artillery based warfare forces our hand here.

Space launch would be unusual for an SG, most end in Dom or for those against the wall diplo.

I think making peace with England even if we have to give up some tech may be the best bet. We WILL have to fight China one way or another, not to win by domination, we would need more then their territory for that but because Mao will eventually grow tired of sitting around and will attack us, he is still furious and has been since the dark ages.

I think England just saw a weak city and took it, enmass. Bringing war to england is huge undertaking. I say make peace, build up for war with China and persue a space victory. It may be in our best interest to pull the AI up to the MId Industrial age to "help" our space race. It isn't necessary but may speed up our launch.

Lets go for space - as Meldor said it is a rare occurence and from the looks of things shouldn't be too far in our future.

Hotrod

Got it

Rowain

@UU : From the looks of things we really took off after the Great Library ended ~900 AD, we were able to conserve so much cash that cash rushing libraries was very easy and gave us a head start on all tech from that point on. A few well timed leaders and an excellent timed Golden Age and we were off and running. We were at parity after the GL was up but way ahead in cash. These civ traits really have payed off, literally. I checked back and saw that virtually every turn we have cashed rushed something, that I think has been the difference. Not to mention the excellent skill everyone has shown in taking the military actions necessary to sieze territory, first India, then Mongols, then Japan, next China. I think our very balanced approach to war, peace, miltary buildup and infrastructure building has "catapulted" us past the AI to a point where we can run the game anyway we choose from here on out.

Hotrod

Space it shall be;

1350AD (IT): Cancel the Lux deal with Mao and sell hiom Medicine for all he can pay (111 gpt); Then I sell him Dyes for Alliance vs England.

Throughout my turns I build Workers, Rifles and Infrastructure. I rushed Factory and (via Worker) a CoalPlant in Ulsan and started ToE there;

We got Magellan and China via cascade Shakespeare;

Later I sold Games to Mao for Free Artistery, Medicine to X-Man for 90 gpt; Persia got Steam as their free tech and not Nationalism;

We learned Sanitation after SciMeth and started Rep Parts then;

In two turns we will know where the Rubber is and have then time enough to learn Corporation with StockMarkets and Wall Street( 4turns at our current tech rate); ToE is due in 8 (=2 turns at 0 science and ~500 gpt) Suffrage in 14;

Neither China nor Persia have Industrial or Electricity now;

At the end a english Caravel and a Galleon showed up near Pusan Isent some Units there and moved to the High ground;

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/1400AD.jpg

and The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1400_ad.zip)

Comments + Thoughts:: I allied with China because we don't need their landsd (except when they get a Resource we need for our ship) and I like it when the AI 's are at war with each other ( no deals between them). With Artillery and Infantry we can make our land immune against any AI-attack;

Please after Atomic-Electronics start to learn Radio and Steel before Refining; The longer Oil is connected the sooner it will move. Radio will give us Civil Defense and Radar-Towers. We have this Game in the bag. In approximatly 100 turns our Ship will fly and leave those little AI back.


Good Luck UU :)

Rowain

PS: My first PtW game was with Korea and Space-win and Monarch. the random map turned out to give me an Island alone and I fought just 5 turns of War in the whole Game (Spain got crazy and landed some MDI next my tanks:crazyeye: ) and didn't ever attack a City

Very nice ! I like pulling china into war with England it will keep them both occupied :goodjob:. Are we going to take Shakespeare's too ?? Just because we can??

Other thoughts: We can continue to sell our tech to Persia and China and use their gold to support our research all the while allowing them (England and China) duke it out on the high seas while we pursue our agenda to fly into space ;). Any opportunity to get Persia into the war against England??

Hotrod
Rowain
UU <----- up now
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis

Got it.

Interesting idea, allying with China (rather than simply taking our continent). I'll stay with it -- should be fun play a strategy I wouldn't have tried if this were a solo game.

@ Hotrod: China cascaded from Magellan and finished Shakespeare 4 turns later.

Persia would have been willing to declare vs England but I feared that they are too weak and would be easy prey for them but perhaps it is better as it would decrease Englands trade-possibilities. I tried for an Embargo but got 'They would never accept such a deal'

Rowain

No great loss, shakespeare is a good wonder if we were looking for culture, not much else.

On bringing Persia into the war you make a good point. It is better to keep them stronger and use them to help our cash flow. It they are at war England may wipe them out too easily.

Hotrod

Try getting an RoP with them and then asking for the trade embargo.

Sorry, folks, I have to un-got it. I haven't gotten to this yet, and now RL issues are getting intense. Don't foresee having time for civ until middle of next week.
Rats. :(

Ok UU thanks for the heads up

Hotrod
Rowain
UU <--- skipped
Mystery (up now)
Meldor (on deck)
Borealis

UU let me know if you want to get dropped in another spot

got it

Preturn, I change Kyoto from Market to Courthouse. Markets will do no good in a totally corrupt city.

IT English land a knight/cav SOD...I have no idea what is available
to combat this force. I saw at least 7 units.
I'm not big on hospitals this early. The pollution effects seem to
be extreme and we need all of our workers for the railroad. Therefore, size 12 cities finished with other infrastructure will commence building Riflemen or Cav. However, I do not change the current hospital builds.

(1)1405AD An English knight takes out our cav, us on a mountain,
without a scratch. I manage to take out 4 of 7 and wound 2 others. We lost an MDI and a Cav. We will also lose a Hwach'a and that will really piss off the Korean nation.

IT China backstabs us already and signs a peace treaty with England. Somehow, I knew it. Now we must watch out for them signing an alliance against us! Luckily, it doesn't happen and they move their 20 odd troops out of our territory.

(2)1410AD Ridiculous...the English apparently sent over special
service troops disguised as Cav because one wounded regular cav just took out an MDI, a Rifle and a Cav before it died!!! But,
the landing party is gone. TOE is in 6, so after Rubber I go for
Corp in 4 followed by two turns of zero science.

(3)1415AD Odd, we seem to be clearing jungle that no city will
ever use??? I think I'll put a stop to this. Nothing else doing...
just going all out infra and rail building.

(4)1420AD I rush walls in two cities along Chinese borders that
cannot expand to size 7 anytime soon. I do not trust the Chinese. Good news from the Navy. One English galleon that took part in the recent landing has been destroyed.

(5)1425AD Wow, an English caravel defeats a vet ironclad. The
English are REALLY tough I guess. We do, however, eliminate the
other landing ship.

IT We get Corp...set for Atomic Theory at zero science for 1002 gpt.

(6)1430AD English ship near Suo did not drop off military. If they
do, we likely lose the city because rushing a Guerilla there costs
252 gold and I don't want to pay it for this piece of Tundra.

(7)1435AD I use our 2 turn wealth to upgrade everyone to Guerilla or Infantry for about 750 gold. Also, the English ship was a Frigate. It bombarded Suo and moved on.

IT We get TOE and switch to Radio. 6 turns at +129gpt. Ulsan
changes to Hoover due in 18. Also, Palace expansion and the English are building Bach's.

(8)1440AD I decide to end the war with England. With peace, we
can get Music Theory for 350 gold. We've got 4000 and I don't want to waste the research on Music Theory, but I would like Bach's for our large, space loving land. Therefore, I spend the money and switch gears. Karakorum will build Hoover in 6. Ulsan will build Bach in 14. I'll start hopefully worthless Universal somewhere else.

IT Damn Persian's want Industry to keep our dye deal going. 400 gold wouldn't do it so I say the heck with you. Persians are also building Bach's.

(9)1445AD This is a good time to report that the core railnet is
complete. Almost done taking it to Japan. Just one city left
to finish in Mongolia.

(10)1450AD Slow turn. What military we have is building up in
Inch'on. No particular reason, other than our boats are there as
well and I was beginning to look at an upcoming English invasion.

China bailed out early on us, though, so I decided to end the
English invasion idea. I still think China will eventually attack
our former Japanese holdings. We are, however, safe from that in
most cities as we have Infantry. I am building cav in a few cities,
but that was just for defensive purposes should China get cocky. Make sure to send some Infantry to old Japan as those cities are still being defended by Cav, MDI, etc.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1450_ad.zip

Good move on making peace! After China bailed we have no reason to move on England. After we get Bombers and Carriers maybe but for now it would be a huge undertaking. I really wouldn't mind if China got taken out soonish, not because we need there land but they have been asking for it the entire 5400 years of our civilization :D :hammer:. I don't think we need to prepare for war but if the opportunities present themselve to teach Mao a lesson so be it ;).

Out of curiosity how are we in Culture with all these wonders, cheap libraries and universities we must be getting up there. Is Culture a possibilty too??

Anyway:

Hotrod
Rowain
UU ( Out until next week??) Please reconfirm when you are available
Mystery
Meldor <----- up now
Borealis (on deck)

I won't do the usual turn by turn summary here as these were basically 10 very boring building turns.

I made several 2-1 lux deals with England. Traded lux with Persia. Same with China. All one big happy family.

Hoover's Dam finished.
JS Bach's is due in 1.
Intellegence Agency is due in 7.
Wall Street is due in 7 as well.

Pulled most workers back from the outlaying lands to improve and rail all squares in the core.

If you see any workers move by themselves, they are on rail-to commands to hook up the last city.

Hot1 1500 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1500_ad.zip)

Wow Meldor the swift :)

And a good turn too :goodjob:


Nobody has Industrialization now so we get Suffrage too

We have now 27500 culture; England is impressed by our Culture and Persia and China are admirers of it :)

Good Luck Borealis


Rowain

Hotrod
Rowain
UU
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis <---- up now

Got it.

Oops, I forgot that US wasn't completed before Hoover's/ I guess I am used to it being completed already. Sorry.

Borealis can switch the Intellegence Agency or Wall Street to US and restart one of those small wonders.

US would have been completed first, but I swapped it to Hoover's to get our production going...this because we planned a space race win and would probably shun war unless we are declared upon...therefore, US not as useful as Hoover/Bach.

Highlights of 1500-1550 AD:

1500 AD (Inherited Turn). We do indeed have Universal Suffrage building, due in 11 turns. No one else should be able to grab it, and it's farther ahead than the cities currently building Wall Street and the Intelligence Agency. All cities currently garrisoned, and the AI without Industrialization or Electricity.

(IT): Persia pops up, and we renegotiate the Gems deal from 12 gpt to 20 gpt.

1505 AD: Ulsan builds Bach's.

1510 AD: Steel discovered; Refining started. We can get Communism from the AIs if we really need it. The English start Universal Suffrage. All the AIs have Industrialization now.

1530 AD: Refining discovered; start Combustion. Seoul builds Intelligence Agency; starts Battlefield Medicine. We have 3 oil sources- two in Mongolian tundra, and one near Bombay. China has 1 oil near Tatung in their northern tundra, England has oil near Poitiers (peninsula near the Korean/Chinese island) and Dover, a city on their northern coast. X-man has three sources, one near Arbela (tundra on main island), and the other two on his 2-3 city tundra islands.

(IT): English want MPP and ROP. I politely refuse, and she signs one with Persia instead.

1535 AD: Wall Street built.

No one has Scientific Method, Espionage, or the Corporation. Combustion is due in one turn, as it couldn't be grabbed faster than 5 turns without putting us below 1K. We need to stay above 1K gold to gain the maxiumum benefit from Wall Street.

Cities with nothing to do are building Infantry- I'd feel happier with 2 defensive units in every city, or at least in every border/coastal city, as the AI may be contemplating a move on us sometime soon. We still need Communism in case of extended war, and can probably trade tech/cash/lux for it when the time comes. Also, note that England and Persia had an MPP as of 1530 AD.

As China appears to be the most probable civ to attack us, there is a spy there as of 1550 AD, planted without detection. Don't try planting in England for a few more turns, at least not until the end of the ten turns... I don't know if there's a formula to that effect, but every time I've tried to plant two spies in a row in a Civ game it's failed and unnecessarily angered the AI. We should, if possible, plant before the AI gets Espionage to increase the chances of successful plants.

Sorry about the unzipped save- I should be getting a new, safer, zip program soon.


1550 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1550_ad.sav)

I've got it.

One small nit but with 3 oil may not be an issue, we may not even use tanks in this game
RowainPlease after Atomic-Electronics start to learn Radio and Steel before Refining; The longer Oil is connected the sooner it will move. Radio will give us Civil Defense and Radar-Towers. We have this Game in the bag. In approximatly 100 turns our Ship will fly and leave those little AI back.

Not a huge deal IMO but a good point to be aware of if getting oil is a problem in SG games.

At the beginning of my turn, we had Radio and Steel, and couldn't research anything but Communism or Refining. Since all 3 of the AI players have it, and unless we go to war, it's useless. Might as well shave a few turns off the launch, and increase our tech lead on the AI. If we want it ourselves, we can either trade for it or spend 4 turns researching it later.

Right now we're at a 5-6 turn/tech, with 4 if we run at a loss for a while. If we feel like going faster, we're going to have to gift techs to the AI, as we need to keep about 1K gold in the treasury.
Cultural victory would probably require taking out England's core, as they have about 2/3 to 3/4 of our cultural power presently. We're at about 25K culture, so getting to 100K would probably take as long if not longer than a spaceship win. The shortest win would be diplomatic (gifting luxuries & tech to X-man and Mao), but as some players don't seem to want that Space is our best bet.

You don't even really need to gift them techs. Just build the UN. The turn before it is due Declare war on England. Bribe Mao and X-man to jion us and then declare UN vote. Presto, we win by default. This is why I think it is a cheap win. Good for a win after you get bored with the game. However, whomever is playing at the time the UN vote comes up has the right to make that choice. I will not complain if we win that way. I just thought that a space win would be more unique.

[EDIT] for dyslexic fingers.

Yep see that now my bad :blush: I missed the Radio and was surprised to see it when I opened the game. We are so far ahead selling techs to the AI will only help us. I think Mao is in big trouble once we get Bombers :hammer:.

Hotrod

Hot 1 from 1550 AD

1550 AD (0): Cash rush multiple Banks on the front lines, what front lines you say :humm:, upgrade all Hwach'a to artillery, the added range will help speed any attacks. Upgrade MI to Guerrillas as well. Still have 1500 some odd gold. Cancel dyes deal with China.
Trade x-man Scientific Method for Communism, 100 gold and 58 gpt.

INBTN: Lizzy cancels our gems/dyes for wines deal. Trade her dyes and Scientific method for wines.

1555 AD (1): Learn Combustion start on Flight, want those bombers. Start a few more infantry to move to the front lines. Complete Sufferage - Just in time :satan:, waiting on those bombers to let the cavs out. Begin forming up 3 attack SODs at Ch'ongfu, Kagoshima, and Chonju.

INBTN: Reup the incence deals with Lizzy for dyes, gems, and furs.

1560 AD (2): China is showing a bit of force outside our Western Territories. Continue to shuffle units, will have bombers soon enough.

1565 AD (3): More units etc.

1570 AD (4): Persia wants to trade silks for dye and 59gpt, instead he gets corporation and dyes, we get silks, and 18gpt.

1575 aD (5): Battle field medicine completes start infantry.

1580 AD (6): Learn Flight, start a few Bombers. Start on Mass Production due in 4 turns.

1585 AD (7): With Mass production due in only 3 turns. With Tank due in about 7 decide to hold off on finally teaching Mao a lesson he is up to 50 infantry. Not to say that there are many bombers in the works right now.

1590 AD (8): Not much to speak of more units more buildings etc. etc.

1595 AD (9): First of the Bombers are built and rebased to the front lines, mass production next turn. Sell Lizzy Atomic Theory for 110 gpt. :lol:. FYI - China will give us 108 gpt. But then what fun will the Tanks be :lol:.

1600 AD (10): Continue to move bombers to the front lines, some airports in the works, police stations, university and others. Just bidding time until the tanks come rolling out, or not. It is up to Rowain but with bombers the variant requirement should not hold up the tanks.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1600_ad.zip

Very uneventful round, spent some gold, made some gold, sold some tech continued the lux deals. Almost all cities are WLTKDs. Getting new tech in 4 turns. Way ahead of everyone but they will pay for tech and allow us to continue to research heavily without a loss of gpt. We are currently pulling in 206 gpt from just England and Persia.

Many units ready to roll out on the front lines. We can easily win without fighting anymore but if we take on China it may make the run to the finish a bit more fun! With only 11 techs needed for spaceship launch I don't suspect I will see the game again.

Hotrod
Rowain<--- up now
UU (on Deck)
Mystery
Meldor
Borealis

Hm If the group wants to go for War I'll prepare for it. Just some comments:

a) Don't get to excided or we may trigger Domination before we get off the Planet (if we attack England)

b) Hotrod I would guess it's still 70 zo 80 turns till we take off so you would get it again (if not for Domination).

c)Borealis: We still need Communism in case of extended war

Sorry no; First we have several Luxes and Bach so happiness ain't a big problem. Second never ever change to Communism. Take Monarchy if needed but never Communism.
On Deity it is the Goal of the Player to force the AI into Communism cause then he knows he has won. The simple reason is you can't cashrush in Communism and so every time you rush a tank or building you cripple your Civilisation. As good as the firaxians got the AI you can still use a rule of dumb: If you see the AI doing something a lot don't do it. ;)

In LK 36(Deity) we took India out in just 10 turns capturing ~14000 gold from his cities; If he had been in Monarchy instead of Communism Ghandhi could have used this Money to rush tanks, Inf, Arty etc;Consider this even in a 1 shield city you can rush a tank from scratch (via worker) for just 440 gold (80 for Worker and 360 then for tank) but you need at least 5[!] Pop-points to rush it under Commi; Again in LK 36 we build 6-7 tanks a turn by rushing it try to do this under Communism and your Civ is dead even before an Enemy-Unit appears.


d)We have done so well till now and can win any way we want so I hope we can agree to not use the UN-Vote


Rowain

War is just another option. I left you will plenty of bombers, and tanks 5-6 turns away. Mao may be foolish enough to attack us. I agree UN is not the way to win this game. I did grab communism, not for the gov't but only for the Police Stations. I only think take out Mao and stop because he has been a pest all game long.

Hotrod

@Hotrod I have no problems with you purchasing Communism. I was a bit startled by the comment we need Comm for war because this sounded like a prefered Goverment change to Communism instead of Monarchy


What I need to know before I play tonight is if we shall go to war with China or sail as peacefully as possible to Victory. Meaning shall I sign any deals with Mao (binding us for 20 turns) or not.


Rowain

I refrained from any new deals just to leave the option to attack open. Without tanks our cavs would not be effective against his infantry so I held off. I would take it too him soon and calim the continent and then peacefully launch.

If anyone else has ideas post them now.

We might as well take out China, IMO. As our spaceship begins to come together, Mao will probably attack us anyway. Better to fight the war on our terms than on his.

IT: We are in very good shape

Only think to do is to hunt down those weird workerstack of 3.5 or 2.5 Workers. I tried to combine all our Workers to stacks of 3 or 6 Workers (foreign Worker count as 0.5). 'cause 3 Workers build a Railroad in one turn on plains and 6 clear a Pollution on plains. (double for Forest and Hills; triple for Mountains).

IBT: Xerxes won't pay 20 gpt anylonger so he doesn't get any Gems anymore;

1605AD: Science down MT still in 3 but now we earn 424 gold instead of 256;
Building Units and Infra;

During the next turns this happened:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/England.jpg

Since I suspected them as soon as I saw these Galley/Man'o'war pair sailing I had improved our defences.
Sadly I could not ask them to leave or declare so they got the first shot and killed an Infantry but that was all the damage they did. the next turn they are gone

We learn MT and get Rocketry as our free tech. I set research to Computers since we are so far ahead that no one will research Fission and build Un before us. The english attack ends our Deals and so we not only lose 110 gpt income but also 2 Luxes which causes several WLTKD to end


Since we are at war I plant a Spy in London; and decide to attack near Marseilles. The bombarment of the English shore triggers their MPP with Persia. So we are now at war with Persia and England. I sell China Gems for Alliance vs Persia (and only againstPersia) and plant a Spy in Persepolis (uhm they are not really ready to fight against tanks )

1640 Our troops (Inf,Arty and tanks) land near Marseille;

1645 attack Marseille: Our Arty does a wonderful job and reduce all defenders to 1 hp; then our tanks attack: the first attacks wins get promoted attacks a second time and We have a Leader :) Computers are ready next turn so I send him home to rush SETI; The other tanks raze Marseille; I found Ro's Landing on top of the Rubber (the place where I landed the troops) build an Airfield with one of the english slaves. So far so good but then I order a more bold then well thought move (as I sometimes do). I decide to try for Rheims too and attack it after the last Arty fires it shot at it. Sadly there are a bit too many defenders. The city holds and the english Counter razes Ro's landing and kills 5 artilleries;Although they lost nearly all their Cav on this attack it is still a big harm as nothing increases WW more then losing a City. The Airfield holds and is still well infested and during 1650AD I killed nearly all their Units there.

At last I rush commercial docks in Seoul as our Leader arrives and can rush SETI next turn;

I started our Research on Fission to prevent an AI building the UN but since no Beakers are invested this could easily be changed.

An upgrade of all our Inf would take 1400 gold. So if you like you can wake one of the fortifieds and use Shift+U for that.

Good Luck UU :)

Rowain

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot1_1650_ad.zip)


PS: I only signed an alliance vs Persia so we can make Peace with England when ever we want.

As long as it doesn't slow down our tech rate too much, war with Mao would be fine with me. He does have a city on an island, so wiping him off the continent won't mean making the other AI Furious with us for eliminating another civ, but it will get rid of those pesky Riders running around everywhere.

Got it. I should be able to squeeze in a round tonight -- at least five turns (then I'll pass it off).
Treacherous English! Just as we'd resolved to play peacefully, too. Will we be forced to leave our world a smoking ruin, as we blaze into the stars?

That threw a wrench in things ;). Makes the next few round more interesting thats for sure :). And here I thought we were in for an easy ride into space with a little China battle to spice things up.

Good luck UU

Hotrod
Rowain
UU <---- playing
Mystery ( on Deck)
Meldor
Borealis

I played 8 turns – about all I can squeeze in right now without holding up our progress. We continue to enjoy a healthy technological lead, and have hit back hard at the English.

Highlights and headlines: The English have thrown numerous units against our tanks, infantry and mech inf. Several dozen gallant medieval infantry and longbows, followed by waves of cavalry, have thrown themselves against our steel. A few tanks fell to cavalry, but this remains an easily containable conflict. I razed Rheims (getting our 5 artillery back) and Avignon -- after raining bombardment on each, of course – from land (artillery), sea (ironclads and a battleship) and the sky (based several bombers on the airfield over there, after it became clear we would be able to hold the peninsula handily). Our land forces now hold the mountain heights overlooking Paris, and have commenced bombing it down to size.
Meanwhile, I have upgraded our infantry to mech inf, built a few more airports, and trained stationed some tanks in our cities bordering China (in case Mao gets dangerous ambitions).
I tried to avoid getting sucked into wholesale military buildup, though. Most of our larger cities now have research labs, and some have police stations. I also peeled two settlers off mid-sized 2d ring cities, to re-settle the peninsula on the English continent. (One city has already been founded; the other settler is enroute.)
No improvements were rushed (didn’t seem necessary), though I did rush SETI in Seoul with the leader (thanks Rowain).
No new leaders.
England will pay for peace: 20+ gpt. This might be adviseable, as soon as we get a second city built on the continent. War weariness reared itself in many cities in 1665, necessitating a 10% lux tax. And we want to stay focused, of course, on research for the space ship. Which means sooner or later we want to get back to selling techs overseas again, I assume.
We now have imposing military forces stationed on the English continent. Certainly enough to hold the peninsula against anything Liz can throw at us for awhile.
Fission is due next turn. Ulsan is building an army, and can of course be switched to the UN.
I set a few workers on pollution cleanup detail (shift-P style). I think everything’s un-automated now.

Suggestions: We can make peace with England, and see whether China will tolerate (peaceful) Korean hegemony. Or else be pre-emptive, make peace with England, and tool up a massive military strike to claim our continent from the Chinese. If that’s the plan, we probably want to strike sooner rather than later.
England has been essentially de-fanged. A few cavalry appear each round. Nothing worth worrying about.
If we embark on major territorial expansion overseas we risk getting a domination victory.


The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_1680_ad.zip)

Here's a window on the English Front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot1_English_Front.JPG

Thinking things over, it might be worth staying at war with England for another round of turns and trimming that orange landmass down. Particularly if Persia were to take advantage and expand on this continent a bit, balancing out the AI's on the powergraph.
On the other hand, this line of thinking may be too Machiavellian. I realize overly-intricate geopolitics rarely unfold according to plan, in CivIII.