View Full Version : Who Shot down the Red Baron


CivGeneral
Dec 11, 2002, 07:17 PM
Who clames the kill on Manfred Von Richthofen during World War I. He was shot down behind the British lines.

Here is a shorten version of the story from Who Killed The Red Baron (http://www.anzacs.net/who-killed-the-Red-Baron.htm)

The action caught the attention of Canadian Capt. Roy Brown, who led a flight of eight Sopwith Camels far above. Brown and his flight dived into the fray. Soon some Albatros Scouts joined in, as did a new group of Fokkers. Among them was an all-red Triplane.

Brown Wrote: "At 10:35 A. M. I observed two Albatross burst into flames and crash. Dived on large formation of fifteen to twenty Albatross scouts D. V.’s and Fokker triplanes, two of which got on my tail and I came out. "

Another young Canadian, Wilford May, was flying his first combat patrol. His friend Brown had told him to stay above any fight,should one develop. May did, but couldn't resist the temptation to join the battle. He quickly became overwhelmed in the tangle of 30 or more planes, and broke away, flying a dangerously straight line away from the fight. Richthofen, flying above the scrap, noticed and gave chase. May began evasive actions after the Baron's initial burst. He and the 'Baron' screamed along just above the ground, the Triplane steadily gaining.

. Brown knew that unless he distracted the Triplane pilot, his boyhood friend May was doomed. Diving at full speed, he swept in behind the Fokker and fired a burst before May and the Triplane disappeared behind a stand of trees.

To the many Australian ground troops there were now only two planes in the air. May pursued by the Baron. The gunners waited till May had flown by and fired at the Red Fokker. One of the soldiers known to have fired at the plane was Gunner 3801 Robert Buie, an oyster farmer from Brooklyn, New South Wales.

Case
Dec 11, 2002, 10:34 PM
Whoever shot him down, I know who stole the Red Barrons boots: the Australians - they're currently on display at the Australian War Memorial here in Canberra :D

gr8ful wes
Dec 12, 2002, 09:31 AM
Snoopy

napoleon526
Dec 12, 2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by gr8ful wes
Snoopy
Dammit! That's what I was going to say!

Seriously, I had always heard that he was finally taken down by AA fire. Wasn't there a Discovery channel special on this last week? I missed it...:(

Flatlander Fox
Dec 12, 2002, 12:31 PM
It's not totally proven, but there's been alot of evidence pointing that the gun crew shot him down as he pursued May.

anarchywrksbest
Dec 12, 2002, 12:38 PM
Biggles! Well he came close :p

puglover
Dec 21, 2002, 11:46 AM
The Discovery Channel has something on that. Watch it.


Their conculsion was an unknown, unphotographed machine gunner on the ground.

willemvanoranje
Dec 21, 2002, 12:23 PM
I'd very muhc like to see it, but we ain't got no damn discovery anymore :mad:

West German
Dec 22, 2002, 07:48 AM
There was a discovery channel story that concluded an Austrailian gunner took him down.

anarchywrksbest
Dec 22, 2002, 12:09 PM
If you are in the UK, turn to Channel 4 now!!! :D

"Dogfight: The Mystery of the Red Baron" is on. It may give you an idea.........

Illustrious
Dec 22, 2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by anarchywrksbest
If you are in the UK, turn to Channel 4 now!!! :D

"Dogfight: The Mystery of the Red Baron" is on. It may give you an idea.........

Nothing new in this documentary. Very thin analysis of old stuff, heavily padded with some general history of WWI fighter combat. No more than 8 minutes out of a 50 minute documentary actually deal with "the mystery...".

The usual thing with TV docs these days: completely fails to acknowledge previous research and dresses everything up as though they were breaking new ground.

Some pretty recreation footage, though (shame they had to fudge it on the Lanoe Hawker duel - couldn't get hold of a flying replica of a DH2 I suppose).

Dark Ascendant
Dec 22, 2002, 03:44 PM
My money's on the ground guns. After all, they put more bullets into the air than Capt. Brown.

Crazy Eddie
Dec 22, 2002, 04:57 PM
Channel 4 put their money on one Sergeant Cedric Popkin, from a British machine gun unit.
There's some interesting stuff here: (bottom of page)
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/heads/outtakes/index.html#baron

Navinist
Dec 23, 2002, 04:42 PM
Maybe I am confusing both wars, but I always thought it was Canada's Billy Bishop that shot down the Red Baron

newfangle
Dec 24, 2002, 11:32 AM
Either way he was shot down by colonist slime!

Case
Dec 24, 2002, 10:15 PM
Would that be the Colonial Slime who formed the most effective parts of the 'British' military, and who played an important role in training the American Army? :p

Gustav Weiner
Dec 26, 2002, 02:25 PM
Was it not a bullet that shoot Richthofen down?

Dark Ascendant
Dec 26, 2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Gustav Weiner
Was it not a bullet that shoot Richthofen down?

How insightful! :rolleyes:
Now tell us who fired the bullet. :)

Wildbore
Dec 27, 2002, 01:30 AM
The Canadian Pilot destroyed the Red Baron. Who would you believe... the Australian Gun crew made up of some novice soldiers, or an experienced Canadian pilot. hmm.... simple isn't it.

Illustrious
Dec 27, 2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Wildbore
The Canadian Pilot destroyed the Red Baron. Who would you believe... the Australian Gun crew made up of some novice soldiers, or an experienced Canadian pilot. hmm.... simple isn't it.

It's quite interesting that Brown was always extremely evasive about this once the war was over. His constant response to researchers seeking his reminiscences of the event was that there was no need for him to make any comment when there was an official history... Strongly suggestive that he didn't believe he really did it, but couldn't or wouldn't rock the boat.

The fact that wartime PR needed a "hero" figure to be seen to have shot down the dreaded Baron meant that the allied press and the allied high command heavily promoted the idea that Brown did it. He had no choice but to go along with this.

Since eye-witness and forensic evidence suggests he was not in a position to have fired the fatal bullet, it is not unreasonable to regard Brown's "kill" as an official myth.

Incidentally, where do you get the concept that the Australian gun crew were "novice soldiers"? The likelihood in 1918 is that a machine-gunner (especially one of sergeant rank) was at least as "experienced" as a pilot of captain rank. For a start they would have been doing the job for longer....