View Full Version : War and Peace- A City-State Diplomacy Mod


Gazebo
Oct 09, 2010, 11:02 AM
New Version (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392543)

Hey everyone!

I've been working on a new mod to address an issue with city-states that I find very 'gamey.' The idea that you can simply 'gift' gold to a city-state to become their friend (and ally) no matter the distance or time seems very unrealistic and, more than anything else, breaks the connection between influence and geography. In light of this, the 'War and Peace' mod adds the following new design elements:

1.) Messengers: A new diplomatic unit unlocked via Writing technology. Can travel to city-states to go on 'trade missions' to gain 40 influence (and 5 Gold, for your troubles). Uses Scout model and icon (it is classified as a non-combat unit). Has a movement speed of '3.'

2.)Diplomats: A more advanced diplomatic unit unlocked via the Printing Press. Can travel to city-states to go on 'trade missions' to gain 40 influence (and 10 Gold, for your troubles). Uses Scout model and icon (it is classified as a non-combat unit). Advantage over Messenger is its movement speed of '4.'

3.) Forums: A new building unlocked via Mathematics. Can be built in all cities. Grants +1 Gold for every 5 Citizens in a city and speeds production of Messengers and Diplomats by 20%. Uses Bazaar graphic.

4.) Foreign Office. A new National Wonder. Boosts Diplomat production speed by 50%. Does not require a Forum. Unlocked via the Printing Press. Uses Courthouse graphic.

Design Goal: The idea behind this mod is to make the proximity of City-States more central (especially early on) to an empire's influence. No longer will you be able to ally with a city-state halfway across the world (unless you send a diplomat over there, which can be risky!). Furthermore, diplomatic victories now require players to invest time in building influence-related units, so you cannot save up your gold, build the UN and then buy off all the votes– you have to maintain good relations with your city-state friends by sending diplomats and messengers to them over a longer period of time.

Also, this mod adds in a few war-related units (thus the 'War' in War and Peace):

1.) Supply Wagons: Unlocked via Chivalry. Receive 'Medic' Promotion for free. Can be used like a Great General to speed up heals in the field (esp. enemy territory). Uses Great Scientist graphic.

2.) Medic: Unlocked via Biology. Replaces Supply Wagon. Receives 'Medic II' Promotion (a new promotion I created, giving +2 to heal) for free. Can be used like a Great General to speed up heals in the field (esp. enemy territory). Uses Great Scientist graphic.

Bonus: I have also changed Suleiman's trait from 'Barbary Corsair's (lame) to Caravanserai, which grants +4 Gold per trade route connected to your capital. It is quite good (but still balanced) and makes larger empires more likely (since you have more gold to spend on happiness buildings). Much better than his old trait!

Notes: I have not been able to remove the Gift Gold option for City-States because I'm not sure the AI knows how to use Messengers and Diplomats (yet). So, for now, use the honor system– avoid using the Gift Gold option if you are using this mod, as it will break realism and the Messengers/Diplomats will become OP.

Requests: If anyone has any interest in helping me make unit graphics for the Diplomatic and Medical units, I would greatly appreciate it. Even just a new unit icon (dove for diplomat, cross for medic) would be enough to distinguish them on the battlefield.

Thanks, and please look for my Mod in the mod directory in Civ V!
-Gazebo

Version 3.0: Updated thread title to better reflect the mod's intentions. Also updated unit build icons to differentiate them from the Scout/Great Scientist build icons.

Drake L. Dragon
Oct 09, 2010, 11:21 PM
I am interested! I proposed the same here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=377917). I do, however, have some suggestions.

(1) Maybe this approach to diplomacy shouldn't merely encompass city-states but all diplomacy. Diplomacy units could be made a requirement for all interactions with nations.
(2) Certain diplomatic units could have better reception than others. In application, an archer could become a diplomatic unit, but the proceedings would obviously be very hostile or not even received at all. (Units should have to ask beforehand for permission to enter into the capital.)
(3) A "Realistic" game speed would be necessary for the application of this mod. Even in the Marathon game speed, diplomats did not take 20 years in the ancient era to reach a nation right next to you. Therefore, there must be drastically longer gameplay to make this mod realistic.
(4) If proposal three is applied, then War and Peace must expand into other areas of gameplay as well, such as new technology and social policies, so that such longer game play would be balanced and even playable.
(5) A graphics team would be nice, because I know many people who find adopted graphics from other units or leaders incredibly a turn off, in that doing so gives a rather sub-par sentiment to the mod.

Best of luck!

War Chicken
Oct 10, 2010, 08:19 AM
Hello Gazebo! What format and dimension do you need the unit icons in?
I'm not good at modelling, but building some icons is nearly zero effort.

Just PM me with the Info, and I'll make them for you.

Also could you please upload a version of your mod here, since my (and the one of many others) mod browser doesn't work as it should.

Gazebo
Oct 10, 2010, 10:52 AM
Hey guys! Thanks for the feedback. I will post a version of the mod later today, I'm busy trying to add unique models for the units (using pieces from the settler and scout units) and I've made some rudimentary icons.

One thing that might be helpful War Chicken would be unit icons for the Supply Wagon and the Medic– right now I'm just using the Promotion_Atlas for the Medic icon, but that doesn't work for the flag or unit icon. Something simple is fine. I'm using the graphic model for the Great Scientist (as he has a wagon!) for both– eventually I might colorize it white to make it look like a medical van.

One thing I'm having problems with (and I posted this elsewhere) is that any time I try to add a new unit model it defaults to spearmen. Its really bizarre.

Gazebo
Oct 10, 2010, 10:56 AM
I am interested! I proposed the same here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=377917). I do, however, have some suggestions.

(1) Maybe this approach to diplomacy shouldn't merely encompass city-states but all diplomacy. Diplomacy units could be made a requirement for all interactions with nations.
(2) Certain diplomatic units could have better reception than others. In application, an archer could become a diplomatic unit, but the proceedings would obviously be very hostile or not even received at all. (Units should have to ask beforehand for permission to enter into the capital.)
(3) A "Realistic" game speed would be necessary for the application of this mod. Even in the Marathon game speed, diplomats did not take 20 years in the ancient era to reach a nation right next to you. Therefore, there must be drastically longer gameplay to make this mod realistic.
(4) If proposal three is applied, then War and Peace must expand into other areas of gameplay as well, such as new technology and social policies, so that such longer game play would be balanced and even playable.
(5) A graphics team would be nice, because I know many people who find adopted graphics from other units or leaders incredibly a turn off, in that doing so gives a rather sub-par sentiment to the mod.

Best of luck!


I agree, though since the entire game is an abstraction, I don't think its too much of a stretch to have a diplomat march across the map for 20yrs. I can always boost the movement speed of diplomats (esp. near late-game) so that it takes less time for them to make contact (thus simulating the speed of diplomacy).

As far as working with actual civs (as opposed to city-states), there's not really a way to do it yet because of our lack of source code- hopefully soon!

-G

War Chicken
Oct 10, 2010, 01:18 PM
As promised, two simple icons, quickly made by me.
I'll see if I can do better with that supply Icon tomorrow evening.

Gazebo
Oct 10, 2010, 01:55 PM
Looks good– I'll try it out in a little bit.

danknerd
Oct 10, 2010, 02:27 PM
[like many long took lurker, but wanted to actually post on this thread]

Gazebo this has lots of promise, especially if the AI can be trained to do the same thing and remove the gold aspect (or least until messenger/diplomat contact has been made and still then gold should have less influence if kept in my opinion)

I also think that messengers/diplomats should either be non-attackable or invisible (like subs) since they are citizens and not military units. But if they remained attackable and attack on such a unit should have SEVERE diplomatic relations with all civs like dropping a nuke on a city, because you are killing civilians. On the other hand they could be captured like workers and held for ransom or something similar too. Though all things would require teaching the AI, so it definitely would most likely be a large project.

Anyways... keep up the good work, I plan on try this mod once I complete another mod I am testing on this site.

Gazebo
Oct 10, 2010, 02:40 PM
Thanks for the support– I'm currently battling the unit creator but, once that's done, I hope to have actual unique units.

The way it works now, the diplomats and messengers are civilians (like workers) and thus can be captured. I have yet to set a tag to make them 'capture-able' though that will happen in the next version.

What's cool about this is the risk involved in sending your diplomat across the world to another city-state. A rival might see your diplomat in his land and capture it, starting a war but keeping influence out 'his' city-state. Or Barbarians might capture your diplomat en route to a distant, isolated city-state. It makes diplomacy feel more real.

I might add a super-fast-moving unit once 'radio' or computers is discovered, that way it simulates the 'rapid, near-instant' communication of the modern age. I dunno– we'll see!!

darkedone02
Oct 10, 2010, 04:25 PM
I always wish that there was some mod out there that actually make the city states join my empire... like in Civilization 4 when the city has revolted and asked to join our empire or disband the city.

Bonci
Oct 10, 2010, 04:32 PM
maybe a tech (like mass media) could unlock the ability to bribe city states?

another idea could be to have a sort of "propagandist unit" that could gain a lot of influence using some culture points...

Stalker0
Oct 13, 2010, 12:14 PM
I like the concept of this mod I'll try it out!

1) Patronage should be updated with your ideas. So the 25% bonus to gifts of gold should also apply to your diplomats...or build speed increases or something.

2) I always thought the idea of spending culture was more appropriate than gold to get city state influence, so that's an idea if you want to incorporate it.

Gazebo
Oct 13, 2010, 01:00 PM
I like the concept of this mod I'll try it out!

1) Patronage should be updated with your ideas. So the 25% bonus to gifts of gold should also apply to your diplomats...or build speed increases or something.

2) I always thought the idea of spending culture was more appropriate than gold to get city state influence, so that's an idea if you want to incorporate it.

The first one is a planned update. I'm going to remove the 'base 20 influence' perk and replace it with something better. The 'base 20' makes no sense. Why would a city-state be 'slightly-less-neutral-towards-you-because-of-a-policy' Lame.

The second is tricky because if I tinker with the culture system, it could throw EVERYTHING out of whack. I'd rather not (yet) mess with that. First, let's revamp the diplomatic victory, then we can work on other things!

The best things about this mod (I play-tested it last night for a few hours) are the following:

1.) City-state location is now critical– its no longer a viable gameplay option to befriend all cultural/maritime city-states regardless of distance. Now, you can only (safely and logistically) befriend the nearest city-states. If you want to befriend a distant one, you've got to either a.) conquer your way there b.) risk a diplomat by sending it through foreign territory or c.) escort it across the continent (also risky)

Last night I had two diplomats headed across Alexander's empire and, when he DOW'd me, both were captured. Thankfully (for now) he didn't know how to use them, so, when I conquered his capital, I got them back!!

Don't worry– the AI will understand the power of the diplomat soon. Very soon.

2.) Producing Forums, Diplomats, Foreign Offices etc. consumes precious hammers, thus making the decision to 'go for a diplo victory' a conscious and involved decision. No longer can you build the UN, bribe the C-Ss and then win!

3.) Having excess gold is fun! I found myself buying buildings and units as well as land, something I could rarely do in Vanilla CiV.

Gazebo
Oct 13, 2010, 01:02 PM
Moderator: possible to merge this thread with the other 'War and Peace' thread? I don't want to clog the Modpacks forum.
Thanks
Gazebo

War Chicken
Oct 16, 2010, 04:50 AM
First a big thanks for crediting me - I was surprised - you really didn't need to credit me so prominently for drawing 2 little Icons.

Then I finally was able to test the mod, and it plays really good. Not being able to stuff the city states with money is a very good thing and causes the need to play more strategic.

I've found one drawback, tho. Maybe it was just coincidence, but in my game the AI-Civilizations were very aggressive towards the citystates. By the time I entered the renaissance, I had recieved at least 8 Messages of conquered city states.

I'll have a look if that repeats on another setting - In the last one I was devellopping very isolated on my own small continent. I'll let you know.

Gazebo
Oct 16, 2010, 12:27 PM
First a big thanks for crediting me - I was surprised - you really didn't need to credit me so prominently for drawing 2 little Icons.

Then I finally was able to test the mod, and it plays really good. Not being able to stuff the city states with money is a very good thing and causes the need to play more strategic.

I've found one drawback, tho. Maybe it was just coincidence, but in my game the AI-Civilizations were very aggressive towards the citystates. By the time I entered the renaissance, I had recieved at least 8 Messages of conquered city states.

I'll have a look if that repeats on another setting - In the last one I was devellopping very isolated on my own small continent. I'll let you know.

I give credit where credit is due– you helped, and I appreciate it.

As far as the aggression is concerned, I have noticed this as well– I believe it is related to the perceived strength of the city-states. I will be upping production and gold for City-States to compensate even more for the lower income (they were using gifts of gold to buy units– without that money, their armies are much weaker). I will buff this and let you know what I discover.
I'll also be lowering (slightly) the cost for diplomatic units to make it less taxing on your economy (and the AIs).
-G

Thanks for testing!

thebignobody
Oct 16, 2010, 12:53 PM
*lurker comment :p*

This looks very awesome :goodjob:

Maybe if you could stack a diplomat with a military unit. you could ask the creator of the 'Legions' mod to help you out with the coding involved.

Gazebo
Oct 16, 2010, 01:04 PM
You can stack military and diplomatic units just like settlers and workers. In fact, the AI has been trained to do this to keep them from getting captured (otherwise the AI would send them right past a barb camp and they would keep getting captured over and over...was pretty funny).

Gazebo
Oct 16, 2010, 01:05 PM
I give credit where credit is due– you helped, and I appreciate it.

As far as the aggression is concerned, I have noticed this as well– I believe it is related to the perceived strength of the city-states. I will be upping production and gold for City-States to compensate even more for the lower income (they were using gifts of gold to buy units– without that money, their armies are much weaker). I will buff this and let you know what I discover.
I'll also be lowering (slightly) the cost for diplomatic units to make it less taxing on your economy (and the AIs).
-G

Thanks for testing!

Found out the problem- I had actually made it 3x HARDER for city-states to grow/produce/gain gold than for normal civs. Have reversed the numbers and now they are pumping out military units like no tomorrow! Will have to tone it down.

Look for 3.5 in an hour or so.

G



Closed due to request of the thread starter. Watch out for the next iteration ;). The_J
Edit: Next iteration is here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392543)