The2 - Prophet of Peace (Monarch) [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Physicist

Dec 15, 2002, 10:45 AM

2230BC (0)

To make myself familiar with the game, I meet all the advisors and visit our huge amount of cities ;) . Our military is weak (2 Jags only, both exploring). Guys, we are running a true Farmers Gambit here, with the only difference that you usually want to have a bonus food tile in your capitols city radius for that. I will try to build some Jags soon, for MP & defence.

We are moderately advanced, researching Poly at 10% sci, due in 39 turns. The AIs will discover Poly before we do, so I consider switching to Alphabet (no, we might want to have that one before) or Math (the AI often discover Math late, so we might be able to trade it around). However, as Poly is more expensive than Math, I decide to continue our research on Polytheism.

Teno needs a Granary urgently. With some MM, I could poprush the Granary in 4 turns, would drop to size 2 with one unhappy citizen, however. 10 turns to grow with 3 spt, then. Or we could build it, due in 8 turns, size 3 and 5 spt, but growth in 20 turns as only 2 tiles are improved (unless the growth in the building turn already activates the Granary, then 10 turns to grow). That in mind, I decide to go the poprush way. I hope it is not a :smoke: move, as Teno will have to builds some Jags before a settler, then. But, we can need those, too. Thus: MM Teno to growth in 4 turns, Granary in 11 turns.

So, most important question, what to do with our (undefended) setter. Possible locations:
* SW of Ur in order to grab Incense & Horse (but will be next to Babylon and surrounded by Bab cities)
* NE of Teo (near the Horse)
* SE or Teo, N of Babylon: High potential, but will be quite corrupt in despotism
* Some jungle locations (spices), but we need cities with some production.

I consider this problem a long time and decide to go the conservative way: NE of Teo; we will have Horses and a quite productive city, and we need both.

Diplo: Mao has Iron Working, but is not willing to trade.

(Interturn) Oh no. A Bab warrior appears two tiles from Teo & our settler.

2190BC (1)

No way to build a Jag out of Teo. A possible third shield is "corrupted away", so 3 turns to Jag. We should connect Teno&Teo in order to lower corrution. I could change Teno from Granary to Jag, but we would loose 22 shields. I decide to gamble and continue building Granary. If the Babs decide to attack, this game will become *extremely* interesting. Diplo: Hammi is annoyed.

(I) Bab warrior moves to Mountain S of Teo, they are on our territory.

2150BC (2)

I do NOT ask Hammi to leave or declare war...
(I) Whoo, Bab warrior leaves our territory !

2110BC (3)

zzz
(I) A Bab and a Chinese warrior move within two tiles from Tenochtitlan. However, I can bring one of our exploring scouts there. Teno. grows. Hammi builds Ashur near the horses SW of Ur. We would not have reached that spot in time.

2070BC (4)

We rush the granary in Teno; lux to 10%

2030BC (5)

Order Jag in Teno; with some MM, we will get it in 3 turns w/o wasting shields
One Jag returns home; forify in Teno, lux to 0%

(I) Babs start The Oracle in Babylon

1990BC (6)

We found Tlate... whatever, order Jag. After long evaluation I decide to move it in a position where it can work thebonus game immediately and the fish after border expansion. I have to admit that it sits on a bonus grassland (waste!). I will propose a dotmap to explain my reasons.

Hami is willing to trade Iron W. for 9gpt & 113g (). I decline; would leave us broke. Mao is broke, btw.

1950BC (7)

MM Teno to build Jag next turn

1910BC (8)

Teo did grow, lux 20%

(I) Babs found Ellipi at the killer spot with the 2 cows and 2 games N of Babylon

1870BC (9)

zzz

1830 (10)

lux 0% as Jag arrives in Teo.

Suggestion to the next player:

* IMPORTANT: Tenochtitlan is working a forest tile this turn in order to complete the Jag. Make sure to MM that to the mined grassland next turn, otherwise Tenos growth is to slow. The Jag is supposed to go to Teo as Teo's Jag is supposed to protect the settler. (Just an idea). Teno will go into disorder if you remove MP or if it grows to size 3.
* Settler in Teo next turn. :)
* Teno needs to grow to make the granary "start working".
* I would suppose to build a second worker soon, perhaps in Tlat which completes it's Jag this turn. We especially need to improve the grasslands around our capitol to allow it to grow to decent size. Generally, we will need many workers as our next cities will be jungle cities...
* You might consider sending one Jag through Bab land in order to explore and find other nations. I could not do that as too many enemy warrior were "visiting" our unprotected cities.
*Teo will need a temple in the near future in order to grab the incence before Ur does.

Good luck to you, zenga! :)

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/The2-1830bc.zip

EDIT: Some typos and misleading formulations.

Physicist

Dec 15, 2002, 11:17 AM

Looking at the screenshot, a dotmap doesn't seem to make sense. Only lousy city locations ... :( Will be a nice piece of work to win that one. :)

Btw, feel free to criticize (sp?) my moves!

Here's our struggling civ:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/The2-1830bc.jpg

Skyfish

Dec 15, 2002, 12:49 PM

Oooops, good luck on that one guys !
Real horrible starting position I call this.

How about getting rid of the Babs ASAP to get some breathing room ? They will declare war on you very soon anyway...
Of course without Iron, it's gonna be a hard one though.

Physicist

Dec 15, 2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Skyfish
How about getting rid of the Babs ASAP to get some breathing room ? They will declare war on you very soon anyway...
Of course without Iron, it's gonna be a hard one though.

"Getting rid of the Babs asap"? That doesn't sound very peaceful, does it? ;)

Yea, the danger of a war with Babylon is present. That's one reason why I started building some military.

We do not yet know whether we have Iron or not; there are some mountains/hills within reach of our cities. Maybe I should have bought IW from the Babs, but it was quite expensive. Mao didn't have it and was *completely* broke all the time. We would have paid full 2nd civ prices, and I hate to be bankrupt. Also, I founded Tlat... before buying IW was possible (which was in the same turn, but I usually check diplomathy in teh end if the turn :smoke: ). We will see what zenga decides on that point.

Even without iron a Jag rush can be devasting... :rocket:

Btw, it is interesting to see that although we are short of everything (cities, workers, military) compared to the Babs, we are doing quite good in comparison to the Chinese. They are behind us in the power graph and "compared to them we have an average military".

There *is* someone who does worse than we do. :D

Skyfish

Dec 15, 2002, 03:08 PM

"Getting rid of the Babs asap"? That doesn't sound very peaceful, does it?

I have carefully reread the opening of the game by Theos and he does not really mention a "peaceful game", just a win by UN which of course implies a no-warmonger game...but that should not prevent you from some early house cleaning or am I wrong ?

What I have found out in my different UN victories is that early wars have almost no influence on the possibility of winning Diplo.
ESPECIALLY in the BCs before any civs are actively in contact with each other.

For example in GOTM13 I achieved a Diplo victory even though I killed every single civ on the starting continent and close island(Russia, Persia, Egypt, Rome, China and Zulu). I actually was in "Almost Always War" until 1500AD and then started trading like mad with every other civ and got a unanimous victory.
Just to say don't be scared to get some breathing room it is much needed in your game seeing that map.

A Jag rush is a good idea even though you have few cities and your GA will be triggered in Despotism with just 3 or 4 cities.

Also these are Babs : those Bowmen are real good units (defense + attack).

I don't want to give any advice here : you guys are in charge !
I hope you don't mind if I comment from the sidelines. If so please tell me to put a sock on it.
;)

zenga

Dec 15, 2002, 03:10 PM

Got it!

I'm going to have a good look before I start playing this one - as soon as I saw the first screenshot I felt a feeling of dread when I saw all of that jungle.:eek:

One thing for sure is we need workers, and lots of them.

I'm going to have a look at the save now and will post again before playing so if anyone wants to chip in with ideas feel free. One thing that struck me from Physicist's post is that if Teno will riot at size 3 is to pop out a quick worker from there while the whipping is still felt ( for another 14 turns).

Another possibility for dealing with the jungle is to have a tight build for cities there at the moment, using the settlers as jungle clearers. Later on a couple of these could be abandoned.

In a regular game I think the first thing most of us would look to do is take out the Babs and settle in their good lands. With defensive warring only we may have to wait a little longer than usual. In any case, I think a leaning toward military building is advisable so we are in a position to take advantage when the Bowmen come-a-calling. This will also include building some of our cheap barracks soon.

More later.

zenga

@skyfish: there is no declaring war or use of exploits in war, but you are right about this not having to be a peaceful game. With the Babs this close it is inevitable (hopefully!) that they will start something. When they do we will show them the benefits of our peaceable ways, backed by our mighty warriors!;)

theos

Dec 15, 2002, 03:28 PM

The rules simply say *no declaring war*. If we can incite the Babylonians to declare war on us, then they are fair game.

Yes, I admit I cheated a bit (and thus why I pushed myself to the end of the roster). I made sure to have a look around our starting location after the startup to make sure that we had a plentiful 'jungle' location (filled with hidden temples to our Aztec prophet of peace).

Remember that all those jungly bits are all grassland (some bonus grassland) and so will be very productive once cleared. Don't be afraid to settle there - and let's start getting some workers to clear out the jungle.

Although the Babylonians have nice lands, we should get the lion's share of the land, especially with our super-strong city of Teotihucan.

I look forward to my turn. Good luck Zenga.

Physicist

Dec 15, 2002, 04:04 PM

@skyfish: the "peaceful" comment was meant as a joke, playing at the thread's title. That's why I added a ;) smiley. Early war is not only possible but an important option.

@zenga: Concerning Teno feeling the whip: I am still not sure whether whipping was :smoke: or not. Usually I try to avoid whipping my core cities. In this game, I wanted the granary asap, and enemy warriors were wandering around, so I wanted to start building Jags soon. Maybe I should have waited for a normal completion of the granary (and built a worker afterwards to trigger the granary, see below). Probably :smoke: , sorry for that.

Question to the team concerning the granary: When you look at the file, you will see that the granary does not work yet; as far as I know, Teno has to grow once in order to "start" it. I do not know what will happen if we build a worker in the turn we are growing. Does anyone know? Do we have to wait for Teno's growth? Or should we build a worker now to trigger the granary, dropping our capitol to size 1 :( (not really an option in my eyes)?

Nevertheless, an interesting game. :)

zenga

Dec 15, 2002, 07:56 PM

OK, i just played my turns (12 to take us to 1500BC) and here's the report:

1830BC(0)

Everthing seems to be OK, leave it as I find it and hit Enter.

1790BC(1)

Teno builds jag and starts a spear for city defence. Leave forest tile worked for now to get him quicker.
Teo builds settler, starts jag. MM for shields to get him in 3, will switch back to irr cow next turn.
Tlat builds jag, start barracks for now - may change. Jag sent towards Teo.
Worker starts last section of road to Teo. Send jag in Teo to scout in S and hopefully get a peek at the other side of the Babs lands. Jag built in Teno will escort the settler who I've decided will settle on the spice NE of Teno. Jag in N will try and get a look at some more of the land around China.
Babyon now has Horseback Riding too. Can get it for 133g and 3gpt. Considering his army is larger than ours at present this may a good deal. It gives us horsemen if a temple is built in Tlat and keeps him off our backs for 20 turns allowing time for more military build up. I take the deal, and Hammur goes from annoyed to just cautious.

1750BC(2)

MM Teo back to irr cow. Jag in N heads into Chinese lands.

1725BC(3)

Get a warning from Mao about intruding into his lands but after checking with the military advisor (we are strong compared to him, plus there is all that jungle between us) decide to press on and climb a hill near Beijing. I'll say one thing: if we thought our position was bad, his is worse! It must have been all jungle around him, just as well his workers are super fast! Even so, the N coast is sighted, right next to Beijing (his only city) leaving only a southern expansion into the jungle possible before boats.
I wonder if our southern scout will find much more land there? I've got a sneaking suspicion that it may be only our 3 civs on this continent.
In diplomacy I would have traded HR to Mao but he has no gold to go along with his no horses!:lol: Hammur is back to being annoyed already.:(

1700BC(4)

Teo build jag and starts a temple in the hope of snagging the incense near there before the Babs. Realistically, this will be our first lux online since the spices will take a while. The temple will be whipped asap (3 turns when it reaches size 3 again). I consider whipping a temple in Tlat also (for the horses). Will give it a couple of turns to see how things develop, it could be better to just settle another city near the horses fairly soon.
Worker heads back towards Teno for some more mining.
Mao backs down so I decide to fully explore his expansive lands (:rolleyes: ) - will be done in 2 turns!

1675BC(5)

Mao finally plucks up the courage to ask to leave again and, being a peaceful nation, we comply. The scout never quite made it to the N coast in the hope of spying more lands across the sea.
Hammur gets shirty and demands 20g. We give in to his demand as his military is still stronger than ours - his time will come.
The southern scout runs into a Bab warrior before he can cross their lands and so retreats into unclaimed land (taking no chances). Will try again next turn.

1650BC(6)

The borders of Ur expand inter turn and take the incense.:mad: It also leaves our southern scout in Babylonian territory.:mad: :mad: Luckily he can cross their border to the south after the warrior moves and does so.
Teno builds a spear defender and starts a worker. MM for worker in 3, switch for growth next turn - 2 garrison will allow it to avoid disorder now.
Texacoco founded on spice near coast, start spear - may change. A top priority could be to squeeze another city in just S of Teo (near the game) to stop any more Bab culture pressure. It would also avoid having quite a lot of wasted tiles in the area.

1625BC(7)

Scout in S reaches coast, next turn he will see better but it does look like we are on this rock until Map Making. How he gets back through Hammur's land is another matter.
Teno MM for growth next turn, worker in 2.
Teo grows to size 3 and temple is whipped. MM for growth and work both irrigated cows.

1600BC(8)

Teo temple complete, start settler. MM to mined cow for same growth and more shields.
S scout continues on along coast.

1575BC(9)

Teno builds worker and starts a jag to allow it's population to increase for now. The worker heads into the jungle for clearing to Texacoco. More workers are urgently needed for Tlat.
Scout in S reaches the end of the world and looks over the edge.
:crazyeye:

1550BC(10)

Tlat barracks are complete and a vetern jag is ordered up. MM for completion in 4 (2 turns on forest, 2 on grassland).
MM Teno for growth, jag still in 2.

1525BC(11)

Teo grows to size 3 again and it will grow again in 3 turns, settler due in 5.
Worker 1 finishes mine and starts to road.

1500BC(12)

Teno build jag and starts another. Jag heads for Teo and MP duty there.
Teo borders expand but don't take incense, another city is definitely needed down there.
China finally build a second city, at the spices N of Texacoco.
MM Tlat back to grass for growth.

State of the Empire for the next leader:

Military - several new warriors and a barracks in Tlat. We're still strong compared with China and weak up against the Babs. There is a Bab warrior just NW of Teno. Our southern scout is now in Hammur's lands after their capital expanded again. It will take him 3 turns to leave and I've left him unmoved for this turn in case you think it better to disband him. We are not ready for war yet but he may get through as Hammur is only cautious at the moment.

Diplomacy - China now has Iron Working. They will trade for HR + 30g, a pretty good deal considering they have no horses. I've left the deal on the table for you to decide.

Treasury - 66g, +8gpt.

Research - Polytheism in 17 at 10% science.

To all:

It may be best to agree on a dot map for any future cities soon. On reflection, the spice jungle was perhaps not the best site I could have chosen (possible weed). I reckon a couple of more cities are needed near Teo, one S near the game and perhaps one on the plains to the SW - this may allow us to cut off Nineveh from the rest of the Babylonian cities if we are quick.

I'll post a map with possible city sites in another post for comments.

Here's the save

the2 1500bc save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1500BC.zip)

Good luck theos!

zenga

Dec 15, 2002, 08:32 PM

Here's the latest map with some comments on possible city sites.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1500bc-dotmapcrop.jpg

White dot (smudge!) - will include horse within our cultural boundaries without needing a temple first.

Yellow dot - sited near game, decent growth and use of unused tiles. Also squeezes the Babs in a little.

Blue dot - decent growth and shields, cuts off the corridoor between Ur and Nineveh.

Orange dot - if settled quickly in conjunction with blue dot will cut off Nineveh from the rest of the Babs cities. Would probably need a quick temple.

Purple dot - although surrounded by jungle, this site snags fish straight away. Could be a good city for producing workers.

I've not included any other sites further N for the moment as I feel we need at least 1 or 2 more cities that will grow quickly. It was for this reason I never whipped a temple in Tlat to get the horses, it's growing slowly as it is.
If I had to choose just one of these, I'd probably go for blue dot first and check the situation again then. Of course, if (when) theos takes the deal for IW that could also change things.

@Physicist: granary was definitely a good move IMO.

@theos: whip effects in Teno wear off in 2 turns and in Teo in 15.

zenga

P.S. I don't think we'll have to worry about a source of rubber!:lol:

Physicist

Dec 16, 2002, 04:59 AM

Home alone with Hami and Mao! Oh, well ... :(

Some ideas/suggestions for discussion:

Concerning city placement/dotmap:

*We might want to move white dot 1 tile NW; It will still bring horse and cow into our territory (or does anyone think I am wrong on that one?), but will be closer to our capitol, thus less corruption. This city will have some non-jungle tiles, even one cow, so it will be quite productive. Highest priority IMHO. No temple needed in Tlat, I agree.
EDIT: By moving white dot 1 NW, we would also grab a coast tile that would be wasted otherwise.

*We should be extremely careful with settling yellow, blue & orange dot. The AI will not settle there (not enough space for a decent city in AI's eyes). If WE settle there, we will push back his cultural burders, and Hammi will react on that agressive settling strategy with a sneak attack for sure. So we should not settle there before our preparations for war are finished. I would suppose to settle white and purple dot first, perhaps before purple dot even a city SE of the inland lake near Shanghai, grapping the spice (you can never have too many of those). If we settle there, the AI *might* ignore purple dot due to the proximity to "Great Spicelake" and our might capitol ;) Tenochtitlan.

Generally, I guess that Hammi will attack us soon in any case. He ran out of space for peaceful expansion, so he will turn to aggressive expansion.

Buying IW in order to know about iron resources sounds like a good idea; it will not get cheaper in the near future. Keep in mind, even with Iron online, we will be able to build Jags (and eventually upgrade them to some mighty, yet unknown kind of warrior) if we have not had our Golden Age yet.

I would suppose to make Teno and Tlat our military training camps (so: 'rax in Teno), Teo (obviously) out settler factory; white dot maybe an addtional military camps. We need more (vet) troups ASAP. As soon as all land is settled, Teno can produce workers to clear the jungle. We should use our current workers to improve the land around Teno, Teo and Tlat, as they are our only productive cities for a certain time. Lets build settlers and troups now and neglect our infrastructure (no temples). We must prepare for bringing Aztec Peace to Babylon! :D

For long term strategy, we should bring the Peace of the Prophet to our whole continent, not only the Aztec colonies called Babylon :) . I am sure Mao will be stupid enough to attack as one time in the future. Furthermore, as you have probably realized, our scouts have discovered a foreign coast west of Azteca. We do not know whether it is fertile land or not, but it does not seem to be colonized. If we ever discover a possibility to cross the mighty sea, we might want to send a settler there.

This game will be a tough ride (probably equivalent to a more standard Emperor game, or even more...), but I am sure that we can hold out against a "five cities AI" even with three cities only. Let's turn the tide in favor of Aztec Peace!

zenga

Dec 16, 2002, 06:07 AM

The white dot site will definitely take the horses, but I agree a quick check with the settler, making sure horses fall in our borders, and the site 1 square NW is better.:goodjob:

You are also right about the blue, yellow and orange spots. They would be seen by the AI as agressive settling. The question is, how long before the Babs start getting nasty? On the power histograph chart we have clawed back a bit compared to the Babs and with a few more quick military units could easily see a shift in army strengths. This could be assessed in between settling near white dot and the next settler built. Remember, the city of Babylon is building the Oracle, so we know at least 1 city (their largest) that isn't producing Bowmen.

I would also agree about a 'rax in Teno and producing military from there with workers in between when at size 4.

Physicist

Dec 16, 2002, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by zenga
You are also right about the blue, yellow and orange spots. They would be seen by the AI as agressive settling. The question is, how long before the Babs start getting nasty? On the power histograph chart we have clawed back a bit compared to the Babs and with a few more quick military units could easily see a shift in army strengths. This could be assessed in between settling near white dot and the next settler built.

I have a bad feeling about Hammi. He has no space to settle. (Remember, how fast he went from cautious to annoyed after the horse trade. EDIT: This is nonsense. zenga wrote he is still cautious. What am I smoking? :) ) He want's to dominate this little jungle world, and we are definitely in his way. Even if he does not declare war during theos' turns, he will start to send settler/spear pairs through our land in order to claim some of our jungle. That's another reason to crank out some more Jags. They are ideal units to bock AI setters.

Or do you think I am too pessimistic concerning the Babs?

Remember, the city of Babylon is building the Oracle, so we know at least 1 city (their largest) that isn't producing Bowmen.

Yep, great that he wastes his production on that one.

EDIT:
Looking at the screenshot again I realize that Teo is under remarkable cultural pressue (two of it's city tiles are Bab territory). We should consider increasing the MP in there; Teo should not flip under any circumstances. I personally would even prefer moving one of Teno's defenders to Teo, eventually increasing the lux rate to 10% to keep Teno out of disorder when it grows. I do not use the formula for flip chances (as there are parameters in it that you usually do not know exactly), but I would feel better with 2 or even 3 defenders in Teo. Btw, Teo is our most exposed city in case of a Bab attack. It should not look like an easy pick!

Erik Mesoy

Dec 16, 2002, 09:59 AM

Dont worry that much about culture flips there. Without the whole gigantic formula, the chance for Teotihuacan to flip is [(babs culture/your culture) minus 1] in the current situation, so probably about 0.10%.
And as for not worrying about rubber, dont worry about coal either. Coal appears in hills, mountains and jungle.

Physicist

Dec 16, 2002, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Erik Mesoy
Dont worry that much about culture flips there. Without the whole gigantic formula, the chance for Teotihuacan to flip is [(babs culture/your culture) minus 1] in the current situation, so probably about 0.10%.

Now I got curious (the scientist in me awakes!)

From the FAQ thread:

P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D

where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreignors, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals

Now reorganizing this gives the required garrison as:
G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)

F=0, T=2
Cc=1 (probably? what exactly is local culture accumulated culture in that city?)
H=1, Cte/Cty = 1 (approx)
I asume D=1 as distance to both capitols is similar.

Then we get as needed Garrison G = 2.

(However, I do not understand the step from the "P=..." formula to the "G=..." formula, where P and D disappear. EDIT: Sometimes I am really too stupid. Of course P=0 is asumed. Blame on me :spank: )

Furthermore, D=1 is probably wrong, as in the "P=..." formula we get
P = 1 (!) for G=1
P = 0 for G=2

Especially 100% flip chance with 1 MP seems to be wrong. But I am not sure if flip chance is 0.1 % only, as you stated, Erik. Or am I doing something wrong here?

Nevertheless, a second garrison would not hurt, if only to protect the city in case of an Bab attack. :)

Charis

Dec 16, 2002, 11:31 AM

The faq is either misleading or being misread.

D should be split into two factors, but instead some folks insist on it being some nebulous number from 500-8000.

'D' in the formula = 2000 * Distance ratio
where the distance ratio is capped to be between 4:1 to 1:4
For 1:1 ratio, it looks like the flip chance is about 0.05% for a garrison of 1, tiny.

I didn't check the rest of your math, just wanted to point out what 'D' is.

Good luck!
Charis

zenga

Dec 16, 2002, 12:00 PM

@Physicist:

Although Babylon is normally strong in culture (they certainly will be if they build the Oracle) I don't think there is any risk of a flip in the near future for 2 reasons.

Number 1 - a temple was whipped in Teo during my turns. This was primarily done in the hope of getting the incense but there were other reasons, including happiness issues (for it growing to size 4 or 5 easily - better for producing settlers) and generally increasing our culture in the areas near Babylonian lands.

Number 2 - the second MP for the city is only 1 square away and will arrive next turn!;)

Teo does need a bigger garrison since it's frontline city , preferably some spears or swords, but I think we can soon start cranking military from Teno (maybe after the 'rax) and Tlat.

Physicist

Dec 16, 2002, 02:01 PM

@Charis: Thanks for clearing that. I didn't find a definition of "D" in the FAQ, but I have to admit that I did not look closely and may have overlooked it. The result I obtained for 1 MP made clear that something was wrong with my assumption. :)

@zenga: Thanks for "info number 2" especially. I was at work and could not check the save file; on the screenshot I overlooked that detail. Otherwise I would not have repeated that point permanently :) .
'So, acknowledging Lord Zenga's wise preparations, Physicist steps back behind the High Council and answers, together with the advisors: "I concur, your excellency!"' ;)

theos

Dec 16, 2002, 04:27 PM

Hmmm, quite a bit of discussion about something I personally don't ever worry about much. Culture flips only ever seem to happen to me from city conquests. Rather safe than sorry, I suppose - a culture flip is not a pretext for war, after all.

Anyway, I've now got the save - was hoping to play my turn today but it'll have to wait for tomorrow. Its looking pretty interesting right now, and I can't guarantee I'll get it right.

theos

Dec 17, 2002, 03:54 AM

The Great Expansion under the rule of High Priest Theos I

(0) 1500 BC
We need more cities and more workers ASAP. So I change some build orders: Tlatelolco, our eastern city, swaps to worker; and Tenochtitlan, our capital, swaps to settler. I plan to simple pay appeasement to Babylon rather than concentrate on defences. A bit of a risk, I'm sure.

(1) 1475 BC
Trade with China: We give Horseback Riding+30g for Iron Working. There are 3 iron on this island of ours. Ur (Babylon) has one; Technotitlan, our capital, has another; and one near the Chinese is yet unclaimed.

(3) 1425 BC
Teotihucan (settler factory) trains a settler that heads off for the last free iron and spices.

(6) 1350 BC
The Chinese have beaten us to the last iron and spices. Our settler is redirected to a risky Babylonian settlement.

(7) 1325 BC
Tenochtitlan (capital) trains a settler and starts a Barracks.

(8) 1300 BC
Our new settler also moves in the direction of the Babylonians for an aggressive settlement. We complete the road to connect the iron.

(10) 1250 BC
Teotihucan trains a settler that heads off for an agressive settlement near China.

(12) 1200 BC
Found Tlaxcala near the horses past Babylonian territory. It starts a temple to resist cultural pressure.

(13) 1175 BC
Found Calixlahuaca by the game adjacent to Babylonian territory. It also begins constructing a temple.

(16) 1100 BC
Discover Polytheism (from 10% sci).

(17) 1075 BC
Trade with Babylon: Polytheism for Writing+85g. Start researching Map Making as we need to get off this island quickly. Taxes to 2.8.0 for tech in 18 at +1gpt. Found Xochicalco adjacent to spices that are in Chinese territory. This brings them into our territory, but will take time to hook up with all the jungle around us. The new city starts a temple to resist cultural pressure. Barracks at Tenochtitlan completed and starts building our armies of swordsmen. Teotihucan trains yet another settler. Babylon completes the Oracle.

(18) 1050 BC
Our new settler heads for our eastern horses. Our workers are working hard at clearing jungle in an attempt to connect up the spices reasonably soon.

(20) 1000 BC
Found Tlacopan by the eastern horses.

We now have 8 cities (China has 4, Babylon has 6). We have 9 jaguar warriors (upgradable to swordsmen if desired), 2 spearmen and 5 workers. Our military is still weak compared to Babylon but it's strong compared to China. We need more workers and I think we can fit in 2-3 more cities fairly comfortably, always with the notion that we might have to abandon these cities later, but for now being able to produce lots more workers and military units will be essential. What worries me the most is that this map is a Pangea. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the other 5 civilizations are all on one large continent elsewhere. We need to find them soon else I'm sure we'll be left behind in the tech race.

theos

Dec 17, 2002, 03:57 AM

Prophet's Isle...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1000bc_Prophet::s_Isle.jpg

theos

Dec 17, 2002, 03:59 AM

Next up is jmansell02, with Zarth on deck. Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1000bc.zip

jmansell02

Dec 17, 2002, 12:17 PM

OK, got it. Let me see what I can do in a few turn for this empire that thinks there are temples in the jungle. They're ma... Oh wait a minute. I see them. OK empire's not to bad. It could be better.

jmansell02

jmansell02

Dec 17, 2002, 12:35 PM

I can't get the thing to work. When I open the .sav it claims that it isn't a valid save. Could theos: (a) try and download and play it himself and (b) put another one up please?;)

jmansell02

Physicist

Dec 17, 2002, 01:14 PM

JMansell: I don't think the file is corrupt. I have downloaded the .zip, extracted it and opened it without any problems. Of course, I did not try to play.

Maybe there is a problem with the extraction? What software (version!) do you use for extraction (I am using WinZip 8.1)?

EDIT: Check your e-mail!

jmansell02

Dec 17, 2002, 02:43 PM

Physicist: Thanks but its still not working. :(

My version of WinZip (8.0) has worked fine in the past. It must be my PC. I will try using one of my other ones. :D I shoud have the game done pretty soon, if not tommorrow then the following day. Do not worry, Be HAPPY :D :D :D.

P.S.: In case anyone is interested jmansell02 is my first initial and sirname + the year. Since this will be out of date by 2003 I have been trying to come up with a new and more imaginative name! i would appreciate any suggestions (so long as they are not something like "Iams Tupid".)

jmansell02

Skyfish

Dec 17, 2002, 03:36 PM

How about :

F1Rider :D

:D :D :D :D

theos

Dec 18, 2002, 01:53 AM

I checked and the download was fine and extraction okay. As a piece of advice for first time SGers, always download your own zip to make sure it uploaded correctly and then test to see if it extracts properly. 10 seconds effort that can help to stop a game from stalling.

I don't want this game to be bogged down over a save game issue. jmansell02, if you're still having trouble with this save game, we should probably pass it on to Zarth and shuffle you in the roster. Please let as know as soon as you can.

jmansell02

Dec 18, 2002, 01:56 AM

It's OK I've got it working now. I forgot to install patch 1.29f on this PC. I should have the game finished and sent to Zarth by about 4pm GMT. Sorry about that!

P.S. F1rider?!?

jmansell02

jmansell02

Dec 18, 2002, 07:25 AM

OK done. The file is at: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-550BC.zip .

Here is my report on the empire:

1000BC (0) – Apparently our people want to build the forbidden palace, maybe we should!

925BC (3) – The babs start building the colossus.

900BC (4) – Swordsman completed in capital. I start on a temple to increase cultural pressure on babs. Teotihucan completes settler. I start on a granary as: (a) I want Teotihucan to grow quite large so it can spit out workers by the thousands and (b) so it can use all of the cattle and the forest. Also I think we need a larger culture as your amount of culture affects negotiations. I decide to send the settler to the city location NW of the capital because it gets the fish in its 9-tile radius and applies cultural pressure to the Chinese’s only resource. I send the swordsman to calix… to resist cultural pressure.

850BC (6) – Taleteloco finishes a swordsman and starts a temple (pre-build for a galley. The babs offer MM for 170gp but since were getting it in 6 turns I decline. The babs then seem to like me refusing things because they establish an embassy in our capital.

825BC (7) - I whip a temple in Talaxcala because I am worried about flips. I decide to go against my previous plan and change Teotihucan to a settler that will be finished on the turn we get MM.

750BC (10) - Atzcapotzalco founded. Starts a temple.

730BC (11) - A Chinese archer starts heading towards Xochicalco from the spices NE of Shanghai I assume the worst because I can’t see anywhere else they could be heading so I rush a Jag warrior in X town. MM is discovered and research on Literature is started. I want to get libraries on the go ASAP.

710BC (12) - The capital completes a temple. It starts a worker to be completed in 2 turns. Also the Chinese archer has fortified but another warrior has moved into sight. Is this a prelude to an attack? Galley to be finished in Taletoloco next turn.

690BC (13) – We now have an average military in comparison with the Babs.

670BC (14) – I agree a RoP with the Babs in order to get a galley through their territory they give us their WM and 28gp as well. I decided to play safe and get the RoP because if we do get into a war with Chinese (both warrior and archer have moved into striking distance of X town) we may want the Babs on our side. Hammurabi is now Polite.

650BC (15) – A Bab galley passesTlaxcala.

610BC (17) – The Bab galley returns having deposited cargo (probably a settler) on the western Isle. A road is finished to Texcoco.

590BC (18) – The Babs beat us to literature by 4 turns. They start the Great Library.

570BC (19) – I spot a southern isle and re-direct my galley.

550BC (20) – Settler deposited on southern isle.

We really need to build our culture. The babs are racing into the lead. Literature is due in 2 turns. Good luck Zarth

Physicist

Dec 18, 2002, 11:30 AM

925BC (3) The babs start building the colossus.

Hami blocks another city with wonder building :rolleyes:? That's too good to be true! Gentlemen, if he ever declares war on us, he will be Jag-food :D

@JMansell02: :goodjob: on the RoP, it will lower the risk of a too early Babylonian attack on us.

EDIT: An idea (for discussion): We might want to turn off research after Literature. We are currently researching at 1st/2nd prices ('Jungle-Mao' is not really pushing tech speed :rolleyes: ) which is very expensive. Soon our galleys will reach the continent where (probably) all the other civs are located (as Theos suggested in his report). I would guess that we will be way behind in tech compared to them. However, having meet the other civs, we will be able to catch up by buying at 7th/8th civ prices, which is much cheaper. So I would suggest to save some money now and buy cheap in the future (at least that's what I usually do)! What is your opinion?

Skyfish

Dec 18, 2002, 03:33 PM

Very good suggestion.

Zarth

Dec 18, 2002, 03:54 PM

Got it!

I don't know if we can build the great library, but if we build that wonder we wouldn't have to research at all.

zenga

Dec 18, 2002, 06:58 PM

Zarth, as far as I understand it, the Great Library is extremely helpful but not essential for this strategy. The most important thing is to gain contact with the 4 civs on the other continent which will push down tech prices, making them affordable through trading with our saved up gold. The other benefit is when it comes to upgrading and rushing in Republic, you have a nice wad of gold.

This obviously depends on gaining contacts which we will hopefully make soon. The only problem I could see arising is if the other landmass is not reachable by a standard 3-move galley.

This map is Standard/Pangea:lol: /80% water. It is possible we may need the GLH! In any case, we should know fairly quickly if we get 2 or 3 galleys out exploring.

Edit: checked map size.

Physicist

Dec 19, 2002, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by zenga
Zarth, as far as I understand it, the Great Library is extremely helpful but not essential for this strategy. The most important thing is to gain contact with the 4 civs on the other continent which will push down tech prices, making them affordable through trading with our saved up gold. The other benefit is when it comes to upgrading and rushing in Republic, you have a nice wad of gold.

I second. Although the Great Library is one of my favorite wonders, I would not go for it here for two reasons.

*Due to our, well, interesting starting location we still seem to lack some basic stuff (I did not check the save, but I guess we could need some more military&workers :) , also markets are around the corner)

*Without TGL we will rely on trading to get techs. This will improve the relations to the other civ on the long term, and that's exactly what we need in order to achieve a diplo victory. With that in mind, I would tend to completely turn off research and rely on trading techs at last civ prices until we reach the industrial age. That would save us a lot of money & shields (no libs and unis, building cheap cathedrals for culture) in the (important) first half of the game. Opinions?

Zarth

Dec 19, 2002, 06:31 AM

0 550BC
I fire the entertainer in Tlacopan and I hurry the temple in Atzcapotzalco.

1. 530BC
Tlatelolco finishes galley, start galley

2. 510BC
we discover literature, start code of laws. science to 0%
I hurry the temple in Xochicalco, this city is under extreme cultural pressure.

3. 490BC
I trade with the babs, they give worldmap, we give them territory map + 15gold.
I trade with china, they giveus worldmap, we give them territory map
The babs have a city on the SW island.

5. 450BC
Tzintzuntzen founded on the south island. Temple hurried in Texcoco.

7. 410BC
The Japanese finish The Pyramids.

8. 390BC
The Chinese and the Babylonians are building The GL.
Malinalco founded, start harbor.
Tula founded, start spear

10. 350BC
Babylon finishes The Great Library!

14 270BC
I renegotiate our ROP with the Babs. They give ROP+incense. We give ROP+spices+19gold. This means we will be giving our only spices source away, but we will connect another source next turn.

15 250BC
Tamuin founded, start worker.

18 .190BC
The Chinese have an archer in our territory nearAtzcapotzalco. I establish an embassy and sign a ROP agreement with them. I hope this prevents them from attacking us.

19 170BC
The Chinese declare war on us!!!! They kill the jag warriors in Atzcapotzalco and capture the city. I switch a few cities to swordsmen..

20 150BC
I hurry swordsmen in Tenochtitlan and Xochicalco.

Zarth

Dec 19, 2002, 06:35 AM

I was quite unprepared for the war with the Chinese. I hope the next player is able to keep the chinese from capturing more of our cities. After that we should be able to destroy them.
Also remember that the Babs and the Chinese are not aware of the existence of the island to the South and the one NE. Do not trade world maps with them!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-150bc.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-150bc.zip

jmansell02

Dec 19, 2002, 07:50 AM

I wouldn't woory too much about this war affecting our relations with the rest of the world. If we sign the Babs into an alliance it will stregthen our relationship and also stop the Chinese getting them on their side. I don't think we could cope with a war on two fronts. Look what happened to Nazi Germany when they declared war on Russia. (And before anyone says anything: I know they would have succeed had it not been for the winter.) Anyway back to Civ 3. The Babs might start producing more bowmen but they still have 2 cities tied up in wonder construction. Also we should be able to wipe out the Chinese before the Bab bowmen get there to start a golden age if we time it right. Tens of Bab bowmen wondering through our territory isn't a good thing but I'd much rather have that than fighting both the Chinese and Babs. What do the rest of you think?

Oops. They only have one city tie up with a wonder. The GL was finished. How did he finish it so quickly?

jmansell02

theos

Dec 19, 2002, 01:19 PM

Physicist up now, Zenga on deck.

Interesting situation we've got now. Those Chinese must be punished for their warmongering ways. And we can get a bit of breathing space. Surely with our superior setup we should easily deal with the Chinese. Good luck Physicist.

On the subject of research - I personally think that if the opportunity arises, we will want to nab the Library, but we can't count on it. I fear that with our poor starting lands, we may be just too far behind the other 5 to trade to catch up. Well, maybe someone with better trading skills than I could...

Physicist

Dec 19, 2002, 05:11 PM

Got it. Real life issues keep me quite busy this week, but I will play either tomorrow (friday) night or early saturday.

jmansell02

Dec 20, 2002, 03:52 AM

I thought the Chiese might invade but I thought they would attack Xochicalo. Phychist: I hope you read my post on the advantages of signing a alliance with the babs. If we don't I am worried things will go horribly pear-shaped and the babs will declare war on us!:eek:

jmansell02

Zarth

Dec 20, 2002, 04:16 AM

I completely agree with jmansell02. Sign that alliance with the babylonians before the Chinese do!

Physicist

Dec 20, 2002, 04:18 AM

I am currently at work and still quite busy, but there is time for a short post:

@JMansell: Yes, I remember your post concerning alliance with Babylon, and I agree with you. We must avoid war on two fronts. I will reread the last reports / post before playing.

The question was not if Mao would attack but when and where (Xochi... or Atzcapo...). Imagine you were in his situation: Lousy jungle start, way behind in tech, territory & military, and then your religious neighbour starts settling two tiles from two of your cities, immediately applying cultural pressure at the inner 8 tiles (!) of your cities. And you are militaristic. What would you do in that situation? ;)

@Zarth: Two questions: Did Mao have IW & MM before declaring war? With how many and what troops did he attack (one archer only, or additional warriors (there is a warrior now in our former town), did you see swords)? Do you remember that?

To all: "Don't fear the times to come. Warlord Physicist will punish the Chinese swine for betraying us!" :D

Back to work now, more later.

Skyfish

Dec 20, 2002, 06:07 AM

Talk about ROP rape ! Sheesh !
hang in there guys !

Zarth

Dec 20, 2002, 06:58 AM

I saw warriors and archers only. I don't think he has swords.

Physicist

Dec 20, 2002, 06:12 PM

I have played 6 turns. It took me 2 1/2 h, including a nearly 1h preparation phase. As I have already made two :smoke: , I think I should have some sleep (it's 1 pm local time now). Please give me the chance to finish my 10 turns on saturday. I will definitely post my report before 12 am (GMT). This will still be within my 48 h. Nevertheless, please excuse the delay.

The good news: my report will be titled "The Empire Strikes Back" :D

Physicist

Dec 20, 2002, 08:40 PM

"THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK"

My report 150BC - 50AD:

STATUS:

* Fast expansion so far, but we must improve homeland defense.

* Five cities are completely undefended, Texcoco and four of our five island colonies. As I do not know if Mao has MM or not, I will try to bring defenders there ASAP.

* We have five undefended settlers, one of them threatened by two barbarian warriors. No way to save that one.

* Military: 9 jags, 3 spears and 2 sword :(

* Diplo: Hami has Monarchy & CoL, but is unwilling to trade Monarchy. He would trade CoL for about 350g & WM, but I decline. No need to buy CoL right now @ 2nd. RoP for 15 more turns.
Alliance against the Chinese costs WM, 13gpt (all our gpt) and 450g (leaving us with 74g).

150 BC (O)

Hard times need hard decisions: I will have to spend some of our money ... Prepare Jag -> sword upgrade.

Tlat (w/ rax) is building galley -> spear
Tlacopan (w/o rax is building sword) -> Jag
Calix: Jag (instead of worker)
Tlaxcala (city surrounded by Bab cities) builds settler @ 1spt since 22turns (obviously). This city needs spears and walls and a worker, not a settler -> galley (needed to transport settler);
Texcoco: sword -> Jag

(I) We loose the settler on western island to barbs.
Babs start Hanging Gardens

130BC (1)

Settler will not found between Tlaxcala and Teo. We don't want Hami attacking us due to agressive settling. Move settler to Tlax for shipping to Fur's Island.

Upgraded 1 vet Jag to sword.

(I) Orleans completes Colossus

110 BC (2)

Chinese sword near our former city Atzcapotzalco.
Teayo founded on Large Eastern Isle

90 BC (3)

(I) Calixtla.. builds walls

70 BC (4)

The Battle for Canton: we loose 1 sword, Mao Canton & his only Iron :D No more Chinese swords!

We found Cempoala on Large Eastern Isle

50 BC (5)

We kill one Chinese sword near Atzcapo
We found Chalco on Large Eastern Island
Hami has Philosophy. WE MUST FIND OTHER CIVS!

30 BC (6)

Mao is willing to talk. Has CoL, but is broke.

(I) The russians have been destroyed (!)

10 BC (7)

We retake Atzcapo, no losses and our first elite sword
We found Tlalmanalco on Fur's Island

10 AD (8)

Hami has Math

30 AD (9)

50 AD (10)

Battle for Nanking: 2 swords vet -> elite, 1 sword lost, Nanking autorazed (4 slaves)

SUMMARY & SUGGESTIONS:

TO THE NEXT PLAYER:

The cities captured from Mao have been whipped (by Mao) and are unhappy, therefor the tax collectors. One might be changed into a lone scientist (see below).

Concerning Hami: We have NO alliance with Hami and RoP will expire soon. I would suppose that if we avoid further aggressive settlements and trade with him in a way that we give gpt or luxuries, we might not go for us. BTW, soon we will be in a position to defend aginst Hami, perhaps we already are in that situation.

We should improve the defense of our colonies (islands), they are a easy pick. The good thing: Hami does not know about the islands yet; we should not trade WM before the islands are settled.

Two of the swords near the ruins of Nanking are fortified for protection, do not forget them when you move on :)

TO THE TEAM:

Mao, being reduced to two cities, is not a problem any more, however, we have one GREAT problem: 'pelago map. We must meet other civs for any price, otherwise we will fall back too much behind in tech.

What we definitely should do: Start suicide galleys in order to find then other civs. Best guess would be west of Western Island; please someone check the file; maybe there is coast and I was too tired to see. From hindsight, definitely a :smoke: move by me: I had a galley there but decided to push back the fog north of the island.
Maybe the galley W of Atzcapo could go there (would reach the point in 8 turns) (maybe we should simply ignore the Chinese galley next to our galley there, it is no harm).

What we *might* do: We are really lacking a modern government. Three ideas for discussion:
* start min sci research on Monarchy (due in 40 turns)
* start 70% res. on Monarchi (-2gpt), due in 20 turns
* Buy CoL and Philosophy from HAmi (will keep him polite & friendly) and then start min sci on Republic

Sorry that the 0% sci approach works that bad, but I would not have expected such a pelago-like pangea map. (but we should not panik, we are still in a decent position will all that land! )

Sorry for typos and bad English etc, it's quite late now. Screenies to follow tomorrow.

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-50AD.zip

EDIT: Here are the screenshot:

Military advisor 150 BC (left) and 50 AD (right):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-150bc-50ad-F3.jpg

The battleground at 50 BC:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-50ad-map.jpg

jmansell02

Dec 21, 2002, 03:51 AM

I think we should get into Republic ASAP. I am really worried about our culture or lack of it. We are an uncultured people.

I am playing a game of my own which has the same settings as this game. It too is supposedly a pangea but has turned out to be a continental! I dont mean a island just off the mainland, I mean a propper continental map! I built up an enourmous culture at the beggining and increased the size of my empire to become the largest in the world through Culture Flips. Culture also helps in negotations. There is no way we will get flips now, the babs are too powerful in that area. However I am worrid about how powerful the babs are becoming. In republic we will be able to buy libraries and cathedrals as well as geting the lower corruption benifits. I wouldn't worry about war weariness, the Chinese war should be over by the time we revolt!

@ Physisict: In your first of the two pot you said it was 1pm local time. Don't you mean 1am as no-one I know goes to sleep after lunch.

@ The team: I am worrying about a oil source. In my game there was only one in the whole world and where it was was the only eligable location on the planet. We should try to grab a oil or tundra location ASAP! We want to be able to build tanks, battleships and bombers in case we get into a late unavoidable war.

JMansell02

zenga

Dec 21, 2002, 06:34 AM

Got it!

Just want to say that I had a sneak peek at the 50BC save yesterday and pretty much agreed with your analysis Physicist. We desperately need more troops, especially with those cities on the islands having little or no garrisons.

:goodjob: with the Chinese war! Hopefully, they won't be much trouble from now on.

Once again people, I am going to have a look at this for a while before playing so if anyone wants to chip in with suggestions - do so now! I'll probably play half today and half tomorrow morning (GMT).

As far as Governments go, I'll have a quick look to see if we can get Phil and COL soon for a reasonable price, but if not probably a lone scientist set on Monarchy could be the best bet. If Hammur has both Phil and COL already, it is odds on he is going for Republic himself - we may be able to arrange a trade if we can get Monarchy first.

Ok, enough prattle, I better go look at the save first!:p

Physicist

Dec 21, 2002, 10:27 AM

The sceenshots are online, see my previous post.

@jmansell: it was 1 am of course :) . Concerning the game: I would not worry about culture too much at the moment. Bab are culture kings, we can not beat them there. Additionally, there is a good chance that we will take some of his cities in the future, ending the pressure on our cities. We definitely have no chance to flip one of his cites, and having in mind the pelago map, we will never flip other AI cities. I agree with your "better trades with better culture" arguement, however.

@zenga: you could buy Phil & Col together for about all our cash. If you intend to go that way, try to give at least some gpt (5-10) to Hami, this will reduce the chance of a sneak attack (or we will make a good deal if he attacks). We would be pinned down to 20 more turns of peace with him, however.

Question to the team: what are our plans with Hami?

@zenga again: 40 turns min on Monarchy only means that we would not have to buy it later. Buying Col & Phil would waste a lot of money on (quite) useless techs, leaving us unable to deal for Republic.
My plan was to start 1 or 2 suicide galley west from Western Island. In 10 turns, we will know if there are civs over there or not. If yes, deal like cray ;) , if not, research Monarchy asap (neg. gpt) or buy it from Hami, if he is willing to trade it (I would prefer the latter, meaning us being Monarchy in 10 ~ turns, but in that case you would have to save money now. I used up about 300g for upgrades :( ). We could trade for Col & Phil later, these are not crucial at the moment. Just an idea.
BTW, Monarchy might not be worse than Republic as we do not have too many luxes connected (but we could handle that) and might want to go to war with Hami. On the long term, Repulic is a must of course.

Good luck to you, zenga!

EDIT: I checked the file again. Damn! :smoke: There IS land NW of Western Island. When you lock at the about 5 tiles long, strait borderline of the fog NW of the W tip of the island, one can guess that some of the sea tiles there have a bright NW edge. Coast. Major :smoke: . Could someone check if I am right, please?

Physicist

Dec 21, 2002, 01:49 PM

No comments on the possible island W of Western Island yet. Feel free to post any comments ("Physicist, you idiot, every blind man would have seen that coast" ;) ).

Originally posted by jmansell02
@ The team: I am worrying about a oil source. In my game there was only one in the whole world and where it was was the only eligable location on the planet. We should try to grab a oil or tundra location ASAP! We want to be able to build tanks, battleships and bombers in case we get into a late unavoidable war.
JMansell: I agree with your analysis, but I am not worried about oil for the following reasons:
* most of the other AIs will have the same problem
* in the industrial age, we should have many trading partners and, thus, might be able to buy oil once or twice
* as we will not go for agressive wars, especially that close to the UN, we will either not need oil or we will be able to handle any situation by buying oil and concentration build orders on tanks, battleships etc for 20 turns
* all the currently visible tundra tiles are on Fur's Island, which will (hopefully) be ours in ~ 12 turns (two cities settled, one settler in production) :)

Originally posted by Skyfish
Talk about ROP rape ! Sheesh !
hang in there guys !
Skyfish: I don't seem to get your point here. Mao RoP-raped *us*, so the RoP is nonexistent, and we can battle the Chinese without rep-hit. Or was your comment supposed to be a joke? (Remember, I am German, and you know what is said about German humour ;) )

jmansell02

Dec 22, 2002, 12:40 PM

I have just bought Civ 3 PTW as it has recently come out in the UK. Does anyone know if this will affect my ability to play ordinary Civ 3?

JMansell02

theos

Dec 22, 2002, 01:05 PM

With PTW installed, I believe you can choose to play either vanilla (1.29f) or PTW from your startup menu. They are two separate executables.

jmansell02

Dec 22, 2002, 04:04 PM

Ah yes, so you can. Thanks Theos.

PTW is great. I have heard that the LAN multiplayer option is quite stable and I am lucky enough to have a LAN. Just one problem. I've got no-one to play with. And no I'm not Polyphemus, and no-one isn't my friend. Of course that is a double negative and so I do have a friend(s). So the question is: is no-one someone or someone no-one. So can I play multiplayer with my great friend no-one or is there no-one to play. I don't know whether you followed that, so I'll summarise it: I've only got a virtual friend to play Civ 3 with. Oh well, I could always play myself. Anyway back to the game!!!

May I point out that according to RBCiv rules suicide galleys are darstardly. Don't ask me why. Take that up with Charis and Sirian! So if we are playing under RBCiv rules this would probably not be allowed. But, since we are allowing darstardly actions then OK. For further details: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Also may I point out that if we are allowing darstardly there are loads of things we can do to benifit us and not affect our reputation. Again I refer you to: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Also to update you on the came that I am playing on the same settings as this one: I won easily. I went to war (they declared war on me!) at the end for fun but still won a diplo victory. I annialated everyone but the Egyptians who were apposing me in the UN. I had been alliad with the Americans against Cleo for about a thousand years so they voted for me. I used quite a few really darstardly actions but still won easily.

Im getting tired so I'll sign off now. Good luck to the next player :yawn:.

JMansell02

Physicist

Dec 23, 2002, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by jmansell02
May I point out that according to RBCiv rules suicide galleys are darstardly. Don't ask me why. Take that up with Charis and Sirian! So if we are playing under RBCiv rules this would probably not be allowed. But, since we are allowing darstardly actions then OK.

Originally posted by theos
Avoid exploits listed by RBCiv. Dastardly actions okay but likely to hurt our cause.

I don't think dastardly actions are forbidden. We wanted to avoid *exploits*. However, when I think about it, suicide galleys are some kind of exploit as the AI can not use them. :confused: I apologize if I made a proposal which was outside of the rules of this game. If we can not use suicide galley, we should discuss our strategy.

Originally posted by jmansell02
Also may I point out that if we are allowing darstardly there are loads of things we can do to benifit us and not affect our reputation.

If we agree that "dastardly" is allowed, please continue. :D

theos: How did you plan for the game to proceed over chrismas etc.? If it is if interest, I could inform you about my time schedule: I will not be able to play until Dec. 26th in the evening (not that I think I would be up during that time :) ). Afterwards, I will be able to play as usual.

:santa: Merry X-mas to all Players, Lurkers and CivFanatics from Physicist! [party] Live long and prosper! :cooool:

zenga

Dec 23, 2002, 04:18 AM

Well guys, this was definitely an eventful set of turns. Here's the deal...

50AD(0)

Have a quick look at the map, trying to find the lands W of Western Isle - due to fog cannot be certain if this is coast or sea, will need to explore the area carefully.
Whip harbour in Malinalco. Switch Calix to horseman.
Buy Phil + COL from Hammur for 380g. Switch research to get Republic in 40 with a lone scientist in Canton. Will look to buy tech from Babs since it's unsure if we will meet other civs soon. Don't want to fall too far behind in tech.

70AD(1)

Malinalco builds harbour, start worker. Tex builds spear, start spear. Tlax builds walls, start spear. Tula builds jag, start harbour.

90AD(2)

Teo builds sword, start spear.

110AD(3)

130AD(4)

Babs finish the GLH in Ellipi. Looks like we'll need some suicide galleys - or the capture of Ellipi.
Teno builds spear, start horse. Cempoala builds jag, start worker. Calix builds horse, start courthouse. Tlat builds spear, start courthouse.
Beijing taken with 2 elite sword, 1 resistor.

150AD(5)

Tzin on S fur isle builds settler, start worker. Teo builds spear, start courthouse. Xo builds spear, start spear.
Renegotiate ROP and incense deal with Hammur for ROP, spices + 65g.

170AD(6)

Babs build the Hanging Gardens in Nineveh.
Defeat 2 spear at Shanghai. galley sunk by Chinese near S fur isle.
Galley at W Isle braves the stormy seas and spies coastline.

190AD(7)

Tlal on S fur isle builds jag, start harbour.
Galley survives at sea and reaches a 2-tile island! Hope there's more land near.

210AD(8)

Lose horse at Shanghai. Elite sword defeats spear. Can't be too many more left.

230AD(9)

A Japanese city build the Great Wall - we are going to be miles behind in tech when we meet the other civs.
More great news. The Babs declared war on us! Just what we need right now. Bab warrior defeats spear at Teo, sword comes out and takes warrior. All courthouses switched to swords - no shields wasted.
2-tile island surrounded by sea. This is not looking great.

250AD(10)

Teo riots (weed), set clown. Bab sword takes our sword near Teo. Move jag to Teo from Calix. Rearrange troops in N to move sword from Canton S, spear arrives there next turn.
Elite sword loses to spear at Shanghai. There are at least 2 defenders there.
Huexotia founded on S fur isle, start spear.
1 galley at S isle left unmoved, Bab galley in the area.

So, we now have a 2 front war. I left it up to the next leader to decide whether to make peace with China yet. This is probably the best move, allowing us to concentrate on the war with Babylon.

Talk about ROP rape!:eek: That is one move the AI is not averse to using. In my book, that makes our suicide galley a fair move! Our galley only discovered a small island anyway!:(

Prime objectives in the war with the Babs have to be the capture of Ellipi (GLH) and Nineveh (Hanging Gardens). The immediate aim will probably have to be on the defence of the cities we have already have. So far we have not triggered a Golden Age but this may be unavoidable, and perhaps necessary, at the present time.

So, good luck Theos on your next set of turns. I'll post a screenshot in a short while and describe the situation in a bit more depth.

Here's the save.

The 2 - 250AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/The2-250AD.zip)

Up>>Theos
On deck>>jmansell02

Physicist

Dec 23, 2002, 06:10 AM

OK, we should not panic, neither concernig tech nor war. Can't look at the file now, but will tonight. If theos has not played then, I will post a comment (not that I think he can't handle the situation :) ).

Tech: It is no problem being 4-5 techs behind when we meet the other civs. Noone is in the middle ages yet (no barb uprising and noone started Sun Tzu's/Sistine).

War: Mao was already toast at the end of my turn. Without looking at the file, I do not know whether it is better to kill Mao first and then go for Hammur, or to concentrate on Hammur now and finish Mao (who is no threat any more w/ oIron&Horse; place 1-2 swords near Shangai and we are save) later. Whatever way theos chooses, I would suggest not to make peace with Mao right now.

That much for now; I will try to comment around 8 pm GMT.

theos

Dec 23, 2002, 08:58 AM

Ok, I've got it.

Interesting situation we've got now. If the war goes according to plan and we're able to control our whole island, things will be looking good for the future.

For RBCiv rules - we're only banning actions on their exploit list. Dastardly actions, such as suicide galleys are fine.

Re: Christmas holidays - if you're not going to be able to post/play for some time during the holiday period, please just post here beforehand and we'll skip you (or juggle you in the roster). I know it's a difficult time to play and we should be more lenient about time limits, but I don't want the game to stall during this period.

jmansell02

Dec 23, 2002, 10:06 AM

I'm fine to play anytime, even on Christmas Day (my birthday) I am doing absolutely noting. (as far as I know) Happy christmas to all!

JMansell02

zenga

Dec 23, 2002, 01:58 PM

As promised, here's the latest screenies...

The big picture

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-main.jpg

The new found land

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-isle.jpg

I included a close shot of this so you could get a feel for this area on the map. There are 2 patches of sea, one to the S and W, and one N of this island. No land reachable safely until we capture the GLH.:mad:

zenga

Dec 23, 2002, 02:14 PM

The Chinese front

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-china_front.jpg

On the Chinese front, Shanghai has at least 2 defenders. 2 sword are in position, 2 more are healing just inside our borders. The Chinese also have a galley outside Tlax - possibly containing a settler.

The Babylonian front

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-bab_front.jpg

Overall, the timing of the war with Babylon isn't perfect but does allow for some long term growth, particularly if we can capture the GLH. The next few turns will certainly be pretty hairy but as long as we can hold Teo we, hopefully, should be in good shape.

Here's a rundown of our main cities:

Tlax - only 1 Bowman in position to attack, walls may help.

Teo - Bab sword outside, 2 garrison so can't fall this turn.

Xo - spear due next turn, garrison can be moved S.

Tex - spear due next turn, garrison can be moved S.

Teno - can probably move 1 spear towards Teo.

Tlat - clown can be fired to gain extra shield, need to raise lux tax though.

Physicist

Dec 23, 2002, 03:20 PM

I have had a look into the file. Not much to add to my previous post; I am sure that Theos, whatever way he decides us to take, will lead the Aztec armies to a great victory that will be remembered for a long time. :)

In agreement with theos and zenga, I think this situation offers good opportunities for us. If we succeed in capturing all cities on our home continent, we would be in an excellent position for the game. Great Library & Great Lighthouse are exactly the wonders we need, and Oracle & Gardens would not hurt, either ;) . I would happlily loose Tula if we capture Babylon instead :D .

@theos: Just two hints:
* I was extremely successful by building Jags and the upgrading them to swords (that's much faster than building swords). Just don't trigger our Golden Age if you want to preserve that possibility. This way we will burn a lot of money, but capturing TGL & GLH is worth any sum as with these wonders we will not have to put any money into research for a long time and rebuild our funds.
* If you think that you can not keep Tlaxcala, simply sell the improvements (esp. the wall!) and let it be captured. We will be able to recapture it within 10-20 turns, I am sure. Or abandon it, we can rebuild it as soon as we control our home continent.

Good luck, theos!

Edit: typo

theos

Dec 24, 2002, 04:02 AM

Final Peace with the Chinese - and the Babylonians face our wrath

(0) 250 AD
Looking over our peaceful empire flung into the depravity of war, it seems we have too few troops to attack the Babylonians just yet. I resolve to build as many troops as possible, and then, when I feel we have sufficient numbers, assault the Babylonians, starting at Ellipi.

Fire entertainer in Teotihuacan - it doesn't need it. Change a couple of build orders for the Jag warrior to swordsman upgrade. Whip a swordsman out in Tlatelolco. Start moving troops to the front. Babylonian swordsman attacks Teotihuacan, and our Jaguar Warrior defeats him! We enter our Golden Age! Note that we can no longer build Jags. We get our first palace upgrade.

(1) 260 AD
Our attack on Shanghai fails. Defences (a single Jag) at Tlaxcala hold.

(2) 270 AD
Shanghai captured. Despite having no cities remaining, the Chinese are not dead, so presumably have an active settler. Defences at Tula, also just a single Jaguar warrior hold. Teotihuacan completes a barracks.

(3) 280 AD
Teotihuacan comes under heavy assault, but our defences are ready, and they are easily defeated.

(4) 290 AD
Chinese galley spotted near Nineveh.

(5) 300 AD
Luxury taxes raised to 10% to counter rioting. Settler pair destroyed, and slaves captured. After defeating a single hit point bowman on the mountain south of Teotihuacan, we finally manage to put some defenders to hold this important position. Our galley loses to the Chinese galley. Some more galleys start converging on it.

(6) 310 AD
Swordsmen march towards Ellipi, home of the Great Lighthouse.

(7) 320 AD
Babylonian ships are swarming all over iron-hill island now that they have the Lighthouse.

(8) 330 AD

(9) 340 AD
Assault on Ellipi begins. 2 Babylonian spearmen killed. A bowmen remains to defend. The Babylonians, seeing their foolish ways, ask for peace. Repentance for their wrongdoing is not enough. Warmongering nations must be purged from the planet. The war continues.

(10) 350 AD
Ellipi captured. The Great Lighthouse is now under our control. Galleys start moving out into the unknown. We sink the Chinese galley, and eliminate the Chinese, may they rest in peace. Swordsmen head to the mountain north-east of Ur.

Final comments
We got very lucky with our city defences. Our Jags did us proud, holding Teotihuacan, Tlaxcala and Tula even against superior power. The golden age in despotism is unfortunate, and is being wasted on troop production, but in the long run it's probably okay as this is going to give us sufficient troops to take out the Babylonians. If we can capture Ur, the Babylonians will be all but defeated as they will lose their source of iron. But beware of culture flips, as they unsurprisingly have a superior culture to us. Now that we have the Great Lighthouse, we need to find a crossing to, presumably, the other continet that has the other 4 civs on it. Assuming we capture the Great Library, we'll end up level in tech with them.

theos

Dec 24, 2002, 04:04 AM

A view of the battlefront with Babylon. If Ur is captured, the Babylonians lose their only source of iron.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-350ad_battlefront.jpg

theos

Dec 24, 2002, 04:07 AM

The save game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-350AD.zip

jmansell02 is up. Zarth on deck. Please post if you're unable to play in the holiday period so we can keep it moving.

zenga

Dec 24, 2002, 04:13 AM

:goodjob:

Well done theos! Good news on capturing Ellipi and the GLH, we're well in the game now. I agree with you about the GA in despotism but feel it was necessary to deal with the Babs who are always a danger early in the game. I we can take them out, or at least take the cities on the mainland, we should be in a very strong position.

jmansell02

Dec 24, 2002, 12:00 PM

I have it and am playing.

BIG news!!!

We have a great leader. We now have several options we could:

(a) Use him to build the FP somewhere.
(b) Use him to build a Swordsman army and start the Heroic Epic.
(c) Save him to rush a wonder.

Since this is such a big event I decided to consult the great leaders of the past (you guys!) as to what to do. Please cast your vote ((a), (b) or (c)) explain your decision ASAP (I want to get on with the game. I will be carrying on with the game 15:00GMT so get your opinion in by then. BTW the war is going fine... so far!

[phaser]
Us.....The babs realising that they have bitten off more than they can chew!

JMansell02

zenga

Dec 24, 2002, 01:33 PM

1500GMT? Have we missed casting our vote?:)

In any case, my vote would go to (b), the sword army for the following reasons:

(c) is a no go. All the ancient wonders are built, the next ones that will be useful to us are Sistine's and Leo's. That's a long time to hang around!

(a) would normally be the top choice but the shape of the landmasses so far are not particularly nice looking for an FP to gain full advantage. The best bet may be to build the FP by hand close by (maybe in Teo or Xo) and hope to relocate the palace later with another leader.

(b) is most immediately useful. We're still at war with the Babs and they have some big cities to take. An army would steamroller any defender. The down side is that unless you don't fill the army it will be stuck on this continent until bigger boats come along.

Whatever you decide (if you haven't already), good luck!:D

As regards to schedules, I'll be unable to play on Boxing Day and then will be clear until Hogmanay. To everybody, have a good Christmas and to jmansell, enjoy your birthday too!:beer:

jmansell02

Dec 24, 2002, 02:50 PM

Oh no, don't worry. I meant 1500GMT Xmas day. Keep the opinions coming in. Presonally, I don't know if we really need a army but I would go for option (b) simply because it will allow us to build the Heroic Epic and that will ensure more leaders in the future should any more wars call apon the Great armies of the massive Aztec Empire!!!

:ar15::nono:
The Babalonians regret telling off the Aztecs for invading China.

JMansell02

theos

Dec 25, 2002, 01:39 AM

What a nice Christmas present, jmansell02! With the amount of warring we're planning on doing, I don't see the Heroic Epic being useful. Creating an army will only have a very short-term benefit - the war with Babylon which we are likely to win anyway.

A Forbidden Palace is likely to give us the best lasting benefits. I'd build it in Ur (when captured) as it is pretty central and two rings away from Tenochtitlan. Possibly in the future, if we have lands on other continents, we could move the palace.

So my vote is for option a.

Zarth

Dec 25, 2002, 03:39 AM

I say option a too.

We don't want to make a lot of wars after we finish the babylonians and kicking the babs of our continent will be easy to do without that army.
The FP gives us the possibility to quickly rebuild the Babylonian cities after we capture them and we could turn these cities into highly productive core cities.

jmansell02

Dec 25, 2002, 06:27 AM

OK so the vote is down to Physicist. If we do build the FP where do you think we should buld it. WE could build it on the homeland or we could build it on another island to have 2 centres of production in the empire. Building it on the homeland would make the former Bab lands powerful but building it elsewhere would give us a 2nd base of ops should we be attacked on the mainland.

The vote is now between options (a) and (b). I will probably choose (a) should physicist fail to vote. Only 2h 47mins left to vote!!!

JMansell02

jmansell02

Dec 25, 2002, 09:40 AM

When I look at the map I can see several possible FP locations. We could: (a) place it in Teotihucan and immediatly get the benifits, (b) place it in Ur (Yes we do capture it easily) and turn former Babalonian territory into a corruption free zone, (c) place it Tula and hope to capture the Babs Western Isle, (d) In Chalco on the far NW isle or (e) In Tlalmanalco on the souther isle. Options (b) and (c) are in danger of being captured. I would go for (a) becuse we can always move our Palace from Tenochtitlan, should the need arise. Merry Xmas to all.

JMansell02

Physicist

Dec 25, 2002, 03:15 PM

Just returned home. Probably too late for the vote. Would have voted for FP, but anything is ok!

EDIT: I had great success in my last two games with an early FP (one of them built from scratch, in the second ring around the capitol, before 500 AD). Really pushed my development. No idea about the actual placement, choose whatever makes sense to you. I agree with theos & Zarth about little gain from an army / the Heroic Epic.

PS:
:goodjob: to theos and jmansell for progress in the war. Excellent performance, guys :D
:bday: to JMansell!

MORE EDIT: I had a closer look at the map. Ur looks like the best FP site to me. But probably the FP is already placed now (when I am writing that) :) . I am really looking forward to hearing about the progress of the Aztec armies, jmansell!

jmansell02

Dec 26, 2002, 05:22 AM

Well here is my report on the Goings on. I have made some mistakes but hopefully none too bad!

350AD (0) – I examine the situation. We are probably going to take the whole island and become the largest and most powerful civ in the world without a single dishonourable move! The Babs destroy an elite sword with a vet sword outside Ur in between turns and a Bab Galley turns up outside Far iron isle.

360AD (1) – The Bab galley is trapped by Far Iron Isle now without the GLH so I leave it there. A vet. Sword loses to a reg. Bowman near Ur. 8 full-strength swords are moved into striking distance of Ur. I put 2 swords on a boat to attack Uruk. If they build a harbour there then they can continue to build swordsmen and terrorise our cities.

370AD (2) - A Bab Galley has moved next to Talmanalco. Assuming the worst I rush a spearman.

THE ASSALT ON UR

Vet Swordsman loses to a vet Bowman taking off 2hp
Elite Swordsman wins against regular Spearman losing 2 hp
Elite Swordsman loses to regular spear taking off 2hp
Regular Swordsman loses to a vet Bowman taking off 0hp. Bowman upgrades.
Elite Swordsman wins against elite Bowman losing 4hp. GREAT LEADER.
Regular Swordsman wins against 1/4 vet spearman and upgrades. UR CAPTURED.
One Babylonian slave.

The Babs now can no longer build those infuriating Swordsmen but the Bowmen are still a danger. I decide to march straight for Babylon because I can gather a new army to take Nineveh from Tenochtitlan very soon. I send Ahuitzotl to Teotihuacan to build the FP.

380AD (3) – Bab swordsmen lands next to Talmanalco.

THE ASSALT ON URUK

Vet Swordsman wins against vet Spear losing 1 hp
Vet Swordsman wins against regular Bowman losing 0 hp. URUK CAPTURED
One Babylonian slave.

390AD (4) – Terrible News. Ellipi Flips back to the Babs. We lose control of the GLH. We lose three Galleys as a result of this. The Babylonians will pay for this atrocity. We lose Talmanalco to the Babs.

400AD (5) – The Babs land a settler pair SW of Beijing. We recapture Ellipi with one vet Swordsman.

410AD (6) – The Babs found Nippur SW of Beijing.

420AD (7) – The Babs once again control Ellipi. I may have to capture Babylon on the same turn as I recapture Ellipi. I recapture Ellipi anyway and move my troops in position to capture Babylon. I destroy Nippur with a vet Swordsman.

430AD (8) – I lose an elite Swordsman to a vet Bowman outside Babylon. I decide to call off the attack.

440AD (9) - ANOTHER GREAT LEADER. I decide to form a Swordsman army with this one. He came from a swordsman battle outside Nineveh where a elite Swordsman won vs a 1/4 vet Bowman.

460AD (11) – The Golden age ends. Babylon is still to well protected to attack.

470AD (12) – The Babs take Huexotla on the southern isle.

480AD (13) –

ASSALT ON NINEVEH

Swordsman army wins against vet Bowman losing 0hp.
Vet Swordsman wins against vet Bowman losing 2hp.
Vet Swordsman loses to regular Bowman taking off 0hp.
Vet Swordsman loses to regular Bowman taking off 2hp. Bowman upgrades.
Vet Swordsman wins against regular Bowman losing 2hp.
Elite 2/5 Swordsman loses to regular Bowman taking off 1hp.

Heroic epic started in capital.

490AD (14) –

ASSALT ON NINEVEH COTINUED

Swordsman army wins against vet Bowman losing 9hp. NINEVEH CAPTURED

OK well that’s me done. We STILL don’t have enough troops to take Babylon and I am worried about Uruk and Tinzintunstzen falling but apart from that we are in a strong position. The babs have only 9 cities remaining but we are still not safe. Ur or Ellipi could flip and those pesky Bowmen are SOOOO annoying. We also need to get more Galleys built and the Heroic Epic built ASAP. Good luck to the next player. Two pieces of advice: (a) CAPTURE THE ANNOYING CITY OF BABYLON!!!!! And (b) KILL’EM!!!!! I probably should have gone after another city before I tried to take Babylon but I didn't. The babs have hundreds of Bowmen inside beware. If I were them Iwould have attacked with their forces and marched to our capital!

@ the next player. Do not attemt to take Babylon with the current forces. You will fail

The file is at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-500AD.zip

JMansell02

Physicist

Dec 26, 2002, 06:32 AM

Captured two enemy cities and got two leaders, great performance! Bad luck on the flipping of Ellipi, but that's life. Of course the city Babylon will be heavily defended (6 bow/spear probably?) and we will need sufficient force (~10-12 swords) to take it, but I am optimistic that soon our home continent will be ours. Maybe, when my turns come, the Aztecs will already be able to rest their swords & axes? We will see.

Concerning the Heroic Epic: we will probably not finish it during the Babylonian war, so we will not gain from it now. What about delaying the Epic and using our capitol for troop production in order to kick the babs off our continent ASAP?

But now for something different. I would like to trigger a discussion about a strategic issue that might become important during my turns or during the reign of the my successor: Middle Age Wonders.
I asume that we will soon control our home continent (in 10 - 20 turns). Do we want to hunt down every last Babylonian on the other islands, or do we intend to stop warring at that point and start building infrastructure? I would suppose the latter (Hammi's vote is probably lost, but we could finish him off later in the game). If we decide to turn to more peaceful ways, we might consider a palace prebuild somewhere to get one or two of the early middle age wonders. I would probably be the one to start this project.
We should also think about what wonders we are interested in. Given our diplomatic approach, I would prefer one of the religious wonders (Sistine, Bach's) to the militaristic ones (Sun Tzu's, Leo's), among the miliaristic ones rating Leo's higher than Sun Tzu's as baracks are cheap for us and we will not need too many troop factories.
Generally, I would suggest that we try to get both religious wonders or Sistine & Leo's. If problems (= war) arise, at least Sistine (the effects of Bach's are limited to the continent it is built on, same as Sun Tzu's effects BTW). Later I would propose to go for Smith's, but this is not an issue yet. To get Sistine for sure, we will probably need a prebuild, as the civs on the other continent will soon reach the middle ages and start to build these wonders (iirc, the Great Wall was already started, so Construction has been discovered already).
EDIT: Or maybe we should go for Sistine only, considering our backward infrastructure (we will have to build markets, courts, lot's of aqueducts and cathedrals soon)?

Suggestions, comments?

zenga

Dec 26, 2002, 06:55 AM

On Wonders, I'd go for Sistine's first and then Leo's. The other two will have a limited effect with the land we have.

On Great Leaders, I guess everybody got their wish in the end!:D

theos

Dec 26, 2002, 12:02 PM

Okay, Zarth, you're up.

I agree that as a peaceful nation, we need to try and gain some of the non-military wonders during the Middle Ages. Definitely Sistine. Preferably Bach's and Smith's. We only need Copernicus's and Newton's if we're going to do our own research. I'd like these if possible as trading away techs near the end is a sure way to get the others gracious for the UN vote.

So, let's aim to get 3 wonders, avoiding Sun Tzu's and Leo's.

Zarth

Dec 26, 2002, 01:50 PM

got it!!

Skyfish

Dec 26, 2002, 04:24 PM

Just plugging in during feasty season to check progress...
You guys are doing a great job :goodjob:
Happy Birthday to JMansell :bday:
(btw don't change the nickname)

to answer very late to the Physicist : I meant the AI RoP raped US and that is surprising as the debate about RoP rape is that the AI does not normally do it and that is why it should not be done according to RBCiv rules !
Also the suicide galleys are dastardly but not an exploit, that means it can still be done but "in a reasonable manner".
:fish:
plugging out and see you soon.......

LKendter

Dec 26, 2002, 05:16 PM

The AI RoP rape is usually simply moving several units to *ONE* city, and then attacking despite the RoP. This is more a AI RoP sneak attack.

A true RoP rape, that is considered the exploit, is to move every troop you have next to multiple cities, all available workers, etc - then you declare war taking a huge chunk out of the AI due to the RoP.

jmansell02

Dec 28, 2002, 09:56 AM

How are you getting on Zarth. I'm sure you have something to talk about. C'mon. Please! I'm dying here not knowing what's going on!!!

:help: :help: :help:
me!

JMansell02

Zarth

Dec 28, 2002, 01:09 PM

I played the first 5 turns this morning. I am playing the last 5 now.

Zarth

Dec 28, 2002, 01:41 PM

0. 500AD
We destroy 3 bowman attacking us.

1. 510AD
we lose the swordsman on the SW island.

2. 520AD
we kill a bowman

3. 530AD
moving swords to babylon
we lose Uruk

4. 540AD

5. 550AD
We discover the Republic, start mathematics.
we capture babylon destroying 8 bowmen and losing 4 swordsmen. We also get 4 slaves.

6. 560AD
I move units into Babylon toheal and end the riot.

7. 570AD
we capture ashur killing 3 bowmen and losing nothing. I move more units into babylon.

8. 580AD
we kill a bowmen near Tzintzuntzen.
I destroy another bowmen

9. 590AD
I'm starving out all people in Babylonians in babylon. I'm moving troops to akkad .

10. 600AD
We lose 4 swordsmen while killing 4 bowmen in Akkad. Akkad is ours. The babs are of the continent.

I'm starving people out of Babylon and Akkad, I think we should keep on doing this to not let these cities riot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-600AD.zip

Physicist

Dec 28, 2002, 05:34 PM

Got it. Expect my report sunday afternoon/evening.

Physicist

Dec 29, 2002, 01:17 PM

The years 500 AD - 600 AD

STATUS:

Well, things have changed significantly during the last 40 turns. :goodjob: to the former leaders!
* We have complete control over our home continent and have strong military here.
* We also control the two eastern islands; all cities there produce 1 spt only; as a consequence, only some Jags there. I will take spears there from our home continent.
* We have one city on each of the two western islands, both with two spears for defence, but no offensive troops; the rest of the island is controlled by the Babylonians.

I decide that we need some more galley urgently, to bring toops to our colonies, and to find other civilizations.

I visit Hammi. He is willing to make peace and is "close to" giving Huexotla *and* Tlalmanalco ("his" two cities on Fur Island). Alternatively one of these cities and Math, or Monarchy (but no city in that case, AI values government techs very high). I decline for the moment as I would like to get complete control over Fur Island.

0. 600 AD (inherited turn)
Ellipi is currently building a library. Ellipi was a Babylonian core city, containing GLH, thus with high (Bab) culture. We have to build some Aztec culture there. Furthermore, the city is employing an entertainer! Thus, I change build order from lib to temple, due in 1 turn (no shields wasted).
Change several build orders from sword to spear, horse or galley as we have 25 swords already which will be obsolete soon. (Cities with build order changes: Xochicalco (horse), Canton (galley), Texcoco (spear), Tlaco (galley), Tlat (spear), Calix (horse), Teo (spear), Atzcapo (galley)).
Lux rate to 0% (only Ur is affected), some MM.
(I) Resistance ends in Babylon, rush temple & shuffle around some troops.

1. 610 AD
Starve Ashur, Akkad & Babylon (also during the next turns).
We kill a Bab sword at Tzintzuntzen (no losses).
Resistance at Ashur ends.

2. 620 AD
(I) Resistance in Akkad ends, city riots (unavoidable).
We defend against 2 bows at Tzintzuntzen (no losses).

3. 630 AD

4. 640 AD
With two of our galleys (4 elite swords on board) aproaching Huexotla, Hammi is willing to give us Huexotla & Tlalmanalco for peace (but nothing more). As I know that there is a vet Bab galley within striking distance of one of my galleys, ehm, no, 'as we are a peaceful nation', I accept. PEACE WITH BABYLON.
Buy one worker from Hami for 1 gpt & 1 g
With the thread of war ended, the Aztec people demands more rights. REVOLUTION, our civilization descends into Anarchy. Teno & Tzintzuntzen need enertainers to avoid riots.
(I) AZTECA IS DECLARED A REPUBLIC!

5. 650 AD
Checking the cities: we can handle Republic government with 10% lux (due to Teno) and two specialist (lone scientist!) in Tula & Tzintzuntzen. We need harbors there!
We rush harbor in Tzintzuntzen (feeling the whip badly), temple in Akkad & Ashur
(I) We complete the HEROIC EPIC in Teno

6. 660 AD

7. 670 AD
(I) Cempoala (on Far Eastern Island) riots. Not one of our most productive towns, nevertheless :smoke:

8. 680 AD
Rush harbor in Tula (wanted to do that earlier, but forgot it :( )

9. 890 AD
(I) We get a palace expansion.

10. 900 AD
I try a suicide galley run east of Far Eastern Island. No land :(

I reduced lux to 0% earlier when Teno built a settler. I forgot to note when.

GENERAL REMARK:
We pay more than 100 gpt for our troops. When Jags are replaced by spears, we might consider disbanding them.

COMMENTS TO THE NEXT PLAYER:
* There are three settlers. One is heading to the former Nanking location (where the sword is fortified), the other is intended to found a fishing village 4 tiles SE of Ashur, 3 tiles SW of Babylon or whereever you see fit. There is another fishing village location on the unclaimed tile between Akkad & Ellipi. The third settler has just reached iron island. I would suggest founding on the plains (where the settler stands now) and moving the spear onto the hill; then this island will be save until the arrival of marines as there is no location to land troops (AFAIK).
* Teno will need some irrigated grass if it is intended to work the hills and still grow. I myself realized that too late, but maybe you will remember it if you clear some more jungle.
* the galley SW of Tlaxa is taking 2 elite sword to Tula to improve protection against a possible Bab attack. Tula needs a worker urgently! The galley west of Tula is exploring (perhaps suicide run west of Western Island/Iron Island?).
* I did not rush too much as our income is quite low. Thus, there is enough cash left for you, zenga! ;)

Good luck! :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-700AD.zip

Physicist

Dec 29, 2002, 01:20 PM

The former Babylonian core and Fur Island, both Aztec now:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-600ad-east.jpg

Babylon today (Western Island) with Iron Island to the NW:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-600ad-west.jpg

zenga

Dec 29, 2002, 02:49 PM

Ok, got it. Will have a look tonight and play tomorrow.

@Physicist: a little gold left to spend?:lol: I think you're right about the galleys, we need to find the other civs soon.

zenga

Dec 30, 2002, 04:38 AM

The Hundred Year Reign of Zenga III

or, The Start of Our Cultural Push

700AD(0)

Switch production in Tamuin from harbour to temple with a loss of 9 shields, it is growing fine without a harbour and is already connected to the trade route.
Hurry walls at Tula and worker at Tlal on Fur isle.

710AD(1)

Found Tepet.. on Iron isle, start temple. Lots of spear complete, start building libraries in most cases - we'll need to research at some point and if we get contact soon they can be changed.
Suicide galley survives and travels onward, eventually spotting pink borders. France!
[dance]

Trade France (polite) contact with Babs + 395g for contact with Japan + TM.
Japan annoyed. Establish embassy. They have a cathedral in Kyoto, large garrison, 9spt.
Trade Japan contact with Babs + 128g for contact with Zulu + TM.
Zulu annoyed. Establish embassy. They are building a cathedral in Zimbabwe, large Impi garrison, 10spt.
Trade Zulu contact with Babs + 88g for contact with Germany + TM.
Germany polite. Establish embassy. They are building a worker in Berlin, spear and sword garrison, 13spt.
Go back and establish embassy with France. They are building a cathedral in Paris, small garrison (2 spear, 2 pike), 17spt (-1).

720AD(2)

Our wise men, researching the scrolls in the Great Library, discover many new advances. The nation rejoices as they learn the secrets of Mathematics, Currency, Monarchy, Construction, Monotheism, Feudalism and Chivalry. All over our great land cathedrals are being built.:)
The captains on our galleys are asked to seek a trade route through safe waters so we may trade our bountiful spices and incense.
The towns of Chiconautia (near Ashur) and Zitlaltepec (near Canton) are founded and both begin the construction of temples.

730AD(3)

The sages learn the discipline of Theology. The plans for a cathedral in our capital are revised and artisans begin crafting a Chapel at it's proposed site.;) The capital is on full production for no growth and the time of completion is in 'only' 370 years! The Japanese are attempting to build a similar structure at Izumo. Thanks to our pre-built foundations Zenga III is confident of prevailing with this undertaking.:)
Unfortunately, the Oracle is now obsolete.:( As a result, a 10% tax is set aside for entertainment.

740AD(4)

Major weed alert!:smoke: With all the recent good news effecting his thinking, one of our sea captains takes a wrong turn and looks to harbour in the ocean by mistake.

750AD(5)

Galley sinks.
Furs online. Lux tax is back down to zero.

760AD(6)

NW passage located near Beijing that reaches other civs.:)
No luxuries can be traded.:(
I must have misunderstood this sea trade rule. With the GLH we can reach sea on the other continent in 1 turn. All other civs have harbours. Why can't we trade? I'm going to have to look into this.

770AD(7)

The Japanese know Engineering, set scientist to research Printing Press.

780AD(8)

First cathedral complete. Several more due soon. Galleys explore.

790AD(9)

As above.

800AD(10)

Cathedral in Teo built, start aqueduct. This could be rushed and then Sun Tzu's started as a pre-build for JS Bach.

100 years have passed and Zenga III hands over power to:

theos>>up
jmansell02>>on deck

The2 - 800AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-800AD.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-800ad-smallmap.jpg

zenga

Dec 30, 2002, 04:48 AM

Our friends, the French and Germans

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-800ad-france.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-800ad-germany.jpg

Our soon to be friends, the Japanese and Zulu

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-800ad-japan.jpg

zenga

Dec 30, 2002, 05:35 AM

State of the Nation and some thoughts.

Diplomacy.

Germans and French polite. Japan and Zulu still annoyed. I've not traded any maps to them yet, this will probably keep them sweet and they can't get near us until Navigation or Magnetism.

Sistine's.

Just realised that a worker can be added ( maybe 2, you'll have to check) to increase production and still stay happy.

Military.

We're strong against everyone bar the Japanese, who we're only average compared to.

Galleys.

3 are exploring around the other continent. 2 are near our capital and were due to move N around Beijing, picking up troops on the way for the NE isles.

Research.

After cathedrals, it is probably important to get libraries all over. I've a feeling that Education won't be far off and it would at least give us the option of more research if we wish. This is the stage in the game that I would normally start to go from buying to researching tech. To get a decent income we probably need a few more workers on jungle clearing duties.

General.

As Physicist said earlier, some military can probably be disbanded to get more gpt - I never started this yet and probably wouldn't until the islands have spears in place. All islands have 1 harbour for trade (except Iron isle), the 2 NE islands are building 1 barracks on each for upgrading purposes and any future defence needed.

Two more cities can be founded near Tula.

It might be worthwhile to rush 1 or 2 courthouses (perhaps in Tula and in NE isle) to check their effectiveness.

That's all I can think of for now!:D

Good luck theos.:thumbsup:

Physicist

Dec 30, 2002, 08:15 AM

[dance] Contact finally! :goodjob:

The Japs control a nice amount of land. And they have a city named "Moscow". Probably the Russians are not in the best shape any more. EDIT: Stupid remark. I forgot that the Russians have already been destroyed. :(

@zenga concerning the trade route: IIRC, for a trade route it is necessary to find a complete path of (in our case) sea tiles. As soon as you have to cross a ocean tile, trade is not possible any more. This is the case here (if I have read the maps correctly).

Concerning maps: If we can get something from the AIs that is worth it, I would not hesitate trading our WM. They can not reach us anyway, so no harm IMHO

theos

Dec 30, 2002, 11:29 AM

Got it

Hooray for contacts! Good thing the Babs built the Great Library for us (so thoughtful of them ;) ) so we aren't behind in tech. We probably want Navigation/Magnetism as soon as possible to allow us to trade with them and boost our relations.

zenga

Dec 30, 2002, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Physicist
@zenga concerning the trade route: IIRC, for a trade route it is necessary to find a complete path of (in our case) sea tiles. As soon as you have to cross a ocean tile, trade is not possible any more. This is the case here (if I have read the maps correctly).

Concering maps: If we can get something from the AIs that is worth it, I would not hesitate trading our WM. They can not reach us anyway, so no harm IMHO.

You're right about the trade route. It's been quite a while since I've played on a map with no sea route. At least, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!:lol:

I did think about trading maps but figured it better to wait a while in case there were more islands to settle. There is no way the other civs can reach us until Nav/Mag anyway and it does make sense to help relations along before we can trade resources.

theos

Dec 31, 2002, 04:31 AM

Age of Research begins

(0) 800 AD
Change many city's build orders, starting workers (we need more workers), marketplaces and libraries as priorities. I buy maps for 24g and then sell maps for 141g.

(1) 810 AD
The Germans start building Sun Tzu's.

(2) 820 AD
Japanese start Leo's and complete Sun Tzu's in Osaka. French and Germans cascade to Sistine's.

(3) 830 AD
We learn Engineering and Education through the Great Library, rendering our Great Library obselete. We are continuing with single scientist research on Printing Press. The Japanese are Invention up on us.

(4) 840 AD
With a galley in Japanese waters, Tokugawa demands we withdraw. Rather than annoying him further, I offer a right of passage and he agrees and becomes polite.

(5) 850 AD
Zulus start Sistine's.

(6) 860 AD
(7) 870 AD
(8) 880 AD
(9) 890 AD
French start Leo's.

(10) 900 AD
The French, Japanese and Zulu have Invention and Printing Press. Rather than fall behind in tech, I buy Invention from the French for WM+535g and Printing Press from the Zulu for WM+305g. The Japanese are the only ones with Gunpowder. Research is too slow because of the huge drain of our army on the budget, so I disband 14 swordsmen, 2 horsemen, 5 jaguar warriors and 1 spearman. Taxes to 7.3.0 for Astronomy in 23 turns at +9gpt. Library construction begins in earnest. The people appreciate this new age of research, and build another level for our palace.

(11) 910 AD
(12) 920 AD
(13) 930 AD
Galley in French waters so agree to a right of passage and Joan returns to polite.

(14) 940 AD
Start sending galleys on suicide missions. 1 galley lost. Japanese start JS Bach's, so they have Music Theory.

(15) 950 AD
The Japanese also have Astronomy and the French are level with them. I buy Astronomy from the French for WM+550g. I sell Astronomy to the Zulu for Music Theory and chump change. Teotihuacan starts JS Bach's. Start research on Banking. Japanese start Copernicus's. Lose 2 galleys.

(16) 960 AD
The people, so please with the new technologies, build another level to our palace. Lose another galley.

(17) 970 AD
Taxes to 6.4.0 for Banking in 13 turns at +3gpt.

(18) 980 AD
A fourth level is added to our palace by our adoring people.

(19) 990 AD
(20) 1000 AD
Japan are up by Gunpowder and Banking, but are unwilling to trade us Banking. France and Zululand are up by Gunpowder on us. Babylon and Germany are languishing behind in the tech race.

Marketplaces and Libraries are being constructed across the Aztec nation, which should help us to pull level in research speed.

Sistine's Chapel due in 10 turns at Tenochtitlan and JS Bach's due in 33 turns at Teotihuacan. It may be better to grab Copernicus's there instead, but we may have to just settle for whatever we can get. Naturally, when Banking comes in, we need to start Banks for Wall Street as soon as possible.

Aside: In a previous post I assumed there were 4 civs remaining to be discovered. As it turns out there were 4 civs, but only because the Russians had been eliminated. I had not played ahead - it was simply me misreading my opening post as there being 7 total civs whereas in fact there were 7 opponents. Of course, there being 5 other civs potentially out there just made our quest for contact all the more urgent. Now Japan has all the land reserved for the Russians and has swallowed up a portion of Zululand as well, and is looking to be the leading powerhouse of the world.

theos

Dec 31, 2002, 04:37 AM

Next up: jmansell02
On deck: Zarth

The save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1000AD.zip

jmansell02

Dec 31, 2002, 02:18 PM

OK, Got it!

JMansell

jmansell02

Jan 02, 2003, 02:53 AM

I'm sorry but I'm afraid I've been really busy and I haven't had time to play. I'm going to be busy in the near future so, instead of keeping you all waiting you might as well skip my turn. So I will pass this save to Zarth. I will hopefully be able to play again on the next cycle. Also, I am sorry I wasn't able to tell you sooner. I hope you have fun. :( :( :(

JMansell

Zarth

Jan 02, 2003, 03:43 AM

got it!!

I'll report tomorrow as I have to play another succession game first and GOTM 14 to finish.

Zarth

Jan 04, 2003, 05:51 AM

0. 1000AD

1. 1010AD
Calixtlahuaca finishes library, start marketplace
Xochicalco finishes marketplace, start library.
Tlalmanalco finishes temple. start aquaduct.
We lose a galley in treacherous waters.

2. 1020AD
tlatelolco finishes aquaduct, start marketplace.

3. 1030AD
tlacopan finishes library, start marketplace
atzcapotzalco finishes marketplace, start cathedral

4. 1040AD
the japanese want territory map+44gold from us. We give it to them, because we don't want to wage wars anymore.
babylon finishes marketplace, start courthouse.
ur finishes library, start university
The French complete the sistine chapel in paris. I switch teotihuacan to copernicus's (completed in 15 turns) and tenochtitlan to bach's (6 turns)

5. 1050AD
huexotla temple => aquaduct

6. 1060AD
we sign a ROP with the japanese. They give us 10gold+1gpt+worldmap.
ellipi library => courthouse
tzintzuntzen barracks => aquaduct

7. 1070AD
we discover banking, start democracy.
texcoco library => marketplace.
i trade with everyone:

Zulu:
We give: ROP+banking+incense+spices+furs+worldmap
they give: ROP+navigation+silks+3gold++worldmap

Germany:
we: ROP+banking
they: ROP+dyes+worldmap

France:
we: spices+world map+148gold+incense
they:ivory

Japan:
we: spices+incense
they: wines+worldmap+10gold

Babylon
we: ROP
they: ROP+worldmap

8. 1080AD
almost all our cities celebrate We love the Prophet' day.

9. 1090AD

10 1100AD
we complete Bach's in Tenochtitlan, start library.

11. 1110AD
Shanghai courthouse => aquaduct
tepetlaoxtoc harbor => courthouse
the babylons are furious with us, so I decide to supply them with incense for 20 turns.

12. 1120AD
tlaxcala aquaduct => courthouse.
xochicalco library => bank
atzcapotzalco cathedral => bank
I switch Nineveh and Ur from universities to banks,.

13. 1130AD
Babylon courthouse => bank
Beijing marketplace => courthouse.
The Japanese complete Leo's in Izumo
The French complete copernicus's in Tours. Teotihuacan was 3 turns from completing copernicus's. I switch the city to a palace as a prebuild forSmith's.

14. 1140AD
We discover democracy, start economics. we switch to democracy immediately.

15. 1150AD
Nineveh bank => university
tlatelolco marketplace => bank
calixtlahuace marketplace => bank

16. 1160AD
tepexpan harbour => aquaduct

17. 1170AD
tenochtitlan marketplace => library.

18. 1180AD
tlacopan marketplace => bank
The japanese build shakespeare's in Kyoto.

19. 1190AD
we discover economics, start gunpowder.
I switch teotihuacan to smith's, will be completed in 7 turns.
I trade gunpowder from the germans, we give them navigation+spices+incense.
we are researching chemistry now.

20. 1200AD
ellipi courthouse => marketplace
chiconautla courthouse => aquaduct

chemistry can be traded for economics, but I think we should first finish Smith's before we trade economics with anyone.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1200AD.zip

Physicist

Jan 04, 2003, 07:29 AM

... and will try to play tonight.

jmansell02

Jan 04, 2003, 09:51 AM

I wouldn't worry about giving away Economics because all other wonders have been finished, killing any cascade. (I am assuming no one has reached TOE yet). I would convert the Palace city to Smith's, sell around Economics and start a pre-build for Newtons. The only reason not to give away Economics would be if you didn't think you could finish Smiths before someone got TOE. Alternatively you couldd start Smiths in a new city and with your headstart win the race oncce they discover it and save you Palace Pre-build for Newtons. I will leave the decision in the capable hands of our newest ruler, mighty President Physicist.

JMansell

Physicist

Jan 04, 2003, 02:58 PM

Unfortunately, I will not be able to finish my turns tonight (just have completed the inherited turn... ), but I will play tomorrow.

The 'economics' situation is complicated as Magellan's is currently being built by three AI cities. However, I have found a solution. We have traded economics AND will be able to comlete Smith's. Wait for my report. :D

I consider turning off research or at least reducing science funding. As some of you guys seem to like researching, I ask for your opinion :) . Here is an excerpt from my report, for you to understand my reasoning:

(preprint beginning)
"Additionally, I consider turning off research for some turns. We need the money, and we will not gain from a fast tech speed. Metallurgy/Milit. Trad. will not help us as we are behind in infrastructure. We lack the income to build cavalry or cannons at the moment. Theory of Gravity would be interesting for Newton's (although I personally do not like these scientific wonders), but is more than 15 turns away (Physics would be due in 9 turns at 50% sci) if *we* research it. We do not want to push the discovery of that tech before the Magellan's cascade has died, anyway, as we can not start a decent prebuild for Newton's before Wall Street. As soon as the next tech is discovered by the Japs, we should review this issue again."
(preprint ending)

Comments?

jmansell02

Jan 05, 2003, 02:58 AM

I would turn off research until the middle of the Industrial era. This should give us some money to rush some courthouses and should give us some tim to build universities and banks. Once Sci. Theory comes up it will be a mad dash to fission and we will need those universities.

JMansell

zenga

Jan 05, 2003, 04:19 AM

I'm definitely one player that likes to research!:) However, if it looks to you that the money would be better spent on infrastrucure and then buying techs, go for it. For now it is only necessary to keep up in tech, a good pre-build for ToE with universities in place should hopefully see us surge ahead. Forget any unnecessary tech, like Mil Trad, we can get them later cheap.

As for Newton's, if it's possible for us to get it, i think it would be worthwhile. As well as giving Sci a boost it has great culture (6?) and would increase our respect from the other civs, making it easier to spread the peaceful message of The Prophet.:D

theos

Jan 05, 2003, 01:53 PM

As far as the science situation goes, as I understand things, we just want to try and keep tech parity until Scientific Method, when hopefully a Theory of Evolution prebuild will give us the advantage we need for Hoover Dam and help with tech trading right until Modern Times and the UN. If we're ahead in tech at the time it will help if we can trade them away at the end for a friendship boost.

Notice of absence :wavey:

I need to let you all know that I'll be away travelling around South Africa and to the States for about the next 3 weeks. I don't know when I'll be able to check up on the forums but it'll be eratic at best. I will take my copy of civ3 with me (what else is there to do in Chicago in January but play civ3?), but I won't necessarily be able to take my turns when they come up. I would appreciate it if jmansell02 (being at the top of the roster) could manage the thread in my absence (i.e. make sure the game keeps moving). If my turn comes up, please wait 24 hours. If I don't post, just skip me - I'll understand.

jmansell02

Jan 05, 2003, 03:49 PM

I would be honoured to take up the slack while you are away. I will ensure that hold-ups are kept to a minimum and the game runs smoothly. I would also like to wish you a safe journey and happy time on behalf of the whole team.

I also have a favour to ask of all of you and anyone who should look at this message. It is not at all related to Civ 3 but...

One of my many interests is a sci-fi series called "Star Trek". Many of you will have heard of it. I am a crewmember aboard a virtual spaceship called the USS Russia (http://www.jedinights.com/sasquach/russia/) and I play a character through e-mail. All these virtual ships are members of a virtual task force (http://www.tf86.org/template.php?pageref=index) which is part of a virtual fleet called Bravo Fleet (www.bravofleet.com). My Task Force is holding a vote as to the people's favorite ship and my Commanding Officer and I would appreciate it very much if you could visit: http://www.tf86.org/phpvote/votes.php and vote for the USS Russia. You can vote once every 12 hours and we need every vote we can get!!! Thank you.

JMansell

Physicist

Jan 05, 2003, 03:51 PM

THE AZTEC TRADING COMPANY

Physicist's report on the years 1200 AD to 1275 AD.

STATUS OF THE EMPIRE:

* Concerning the discussion about trading economics & wonder race: the tech is worth more if the corresponding wonder has not been built yet. However, Zululand, Japan & France are building Magellan's, so it is potentially dangerous to sell economics. The wonder building cities: Isandhlwana (Zulu) is probably not making more than 7 spt. Hlobane (Japan) is similar. Chartres (France) is potentially dangerous; would be high potential, but is size 6 only and quite far away from Paris. I do not know when the AI started building the wonder in these cities. However, Magellan's is 400 shields and Smith's 600 shields. Even if one of these (weak) AI city completes Magellan's and the other two cascade to Smith's, they will not be able to finish it before us.
Considering these facts, I decide to trade around Economics.

* We are building banks already, so Wall Street will be an issue soon. We should raise our cash level above 1000g. However, we are gaining + 13 (!) gpt only @ 236 g cash. Furthermore, I would like to have some money to rush some courts/markets and to upgrade some spears (Tula!) to muskets.

MY TURNS:

1200 AD (0)

* Trades: Economics to ...
... Japan for Chemistry, 250g & 5 gpt
... Zululand for 22 gpt, 80g
... France & Germany for WM (will make them friendly and does not hurt us)

We have 566g now, making +40 gpt. Much better. Additionally, I decide to turn off research as stated in my previous post. Thus: sci 0%, +265 gpt

* Build orders and MM:
Fur Isle:
I veto the three aqueducts built on Fur Isle. These cities will celebrate WLTKD at size 6, but stop celebrating at size 7. At the corruption level we are facing here WLTKD makes the difference between 1spt and 3 spt (Tlalmanalco). Same with Tula (our stronghold on Western Island). Change aqueducts -> courthouses. Tzintzuntzen rushes courthouse (has barracks & harbor and can produce vet units on Fur Island). Tlatmanalco rushes Knight and changes immediately to courthouse, due in 4 turns.

Home Continent:
Nearly all of our coastal cities w/o harbor (except Beijing) on our home continent need a harbor urgently.
Tlacopan (not growing) changed to harbor instead of bank (first things first), some MM, grows again.
Tlatelolco & Ellipi: harbor instead of market/bank. Both cities are not currupt, so growth means more gold and more shields.
Chiconautla: harbor instead of aqueduct (no chance to grow, so no need for aqueduct now)
Teo: is making 3 additional food per turn at size 12, but no way to change that now.
Teno: lib to bank; Teno (your *capitol*) is stuck at size *seven* (7)! MM to 2 surplus food, growth in 5 turns, slightly reduced shield output at the moment, but will improove after growth.
Tlaxcala: MM for growth.

Eastern Islands:
We are building many aqueducts over there. We don't want these corrupt cities to grow now, as size probably does not help here, WLTKD & courthouse probably will. Thus we change aqueduct orders to courts (not in Ixta..., as we are close to finishing aqueduct here and don't want to waste shields).

Iron Isle: the city there is building courthouse. Change to temple. Culture is always good, and this city will nevertheless not be productive in the near future (due to distance to capitol and low shield). And we want to grap the two whales.

* Military:
We have no boats at all. If we want to reach our island colonies, we will have to swim :( .
Switch Tlaxcala from courthouse (only mildly corrupt) to caravel. I want to transport our elite swords from Fur Isle to Tula in case Hami decides to make trouble. We start moving some spears from the (quite save) eastern coast of Azteca to the western coast; they will replace the swords on Fur Isle.
There are lots of workers on our eastern island which are not needed there. We will transport them to our home contacts in order to clear jungle and improve the unimproved tiles our citizens are working on (as soon as boats are available).
Nearly all of our cities are protected by spears (speak 'one spear') only, although cavalry is only some two techs away. I will start to order some muskets/knight for homeland defense after the infrastructure builds. Sooner or later we might want to get rid of these Jags & reg spears.
We upgrade one of our vet spears in Tula to musket in order to deter a possible Babylonian attack.
Together with the courthouse rushes, we are down to 104 g now.

(Interturn) Japs start Smith's

(Sorry for the long report on the inherited turn, but I wanted to explain why I did do so many changes in the build orders.)

1210 AD (1)
Oh, that's fast. Tokugawa has Metallurgy. We could get it for WM, ~110 gpt & 370g, but we decline.
Teayo & Malinalco (citys on Near/Far Eastern Island closest to Azteca) rush courthouse.
(I) Hey, with court & WLTKD Malinalco is only 1/3 corrupt, that's quite good. We start market here (this is a fishing town that will never make more than 3 spt before rails, so we do not want to have barracks / unit production here).
Teayo ~ 1/2 of the shieds wasted with court & WLTKD, not bad. However, gpt is still completely corrupted (making 2 gpt). No need for market/lib here (at the moment). We start barracks as we want to have at least one barrack on each island.

1220 AD (2)
We rush courthouse in Tamuin (Near Eastern Island).
(I) Otto wants to exchange WM. We decline and offer TM for free.
Tamuin: 50% waste now (court & WLTKD). Barracks already there. Tamuin will not get more shields by growing (all shield tiles already worked), so we order market.
Zulu & Frensh start Smith's

1230 AD (3)
(I) Tlalmanco completes court, ~ 1/2 corruption. Start market (will need harbor before aqueduct).

1240 AD (4)
We trade around WM (wanted to do that earlier, but forgot). I find out that our WM is quite, well, worthless. We have to pay money (~10 g) for other WM. I decide to trade to find out what the others know.
Hami: pays 6 g & WM for WM
Joan: pays 1 g & WM for WM
Toku: gets 1 gpt & WM for WM
Shaka: pays 3 g for WM now (wanted 15 g for WM before the deal with Toku)
Toku: trade WM again for 5 g
Joan: " WM " for 9 g & Free Artistry (she has nothing else to give)
Otto (broke) is gifted an exchange of WM.
Summary: for 1 gpt we have busted some fog and gained 24 g !

1250 AD (5)
We renew the RoP with Japan for 1 gpt & 14g (Toku pays of course)
(I) Babylon wants to excange WM. As a peaceful nation we accept (doesn't hurt). we gain 1g.
WE COMPLETE ADAM SMITH'S TRADING COMPANY IN TEOTIHUACAN !
We are now making ~ 330 gpt, about 35 gpt are supplied by Smith's.

1255 AD (6)
We rush the Courthouse in Chalco (Far Eastern Island) for 72g.
(I) Court doesn't help much here. No expensive rushing of courts in the other cities on this Island.

1260 AD (7)
Shaka & Joan have learned Metallurgy, furthermore they & Toku know physics. We have to renew our trade / lux deals with Toku, Shaka & Otto.
We buy from ...
Shaka: RoP and Silks for Incense, Spice, Furs, 10gpt & 167 g
Otto: RoP & Dyes for Chemistry, 7 gpt & 13g
Joan: Physics for 20 gpt & 437g
Ivory for Incense, Spices, 10 gpt & 200g
Shaka: Metallurgy & Wines for Spices, Incense, 20gpt & 533g
Hami: RoP for RoP
Metallurgy has already been discovered by Toku.
We are down to 475g, paying 68 gpt to other civs at a net gain of 281 gpt. Not little money, but not much money, either. This will pin us down to low research a little bit for the next 20 turns. (Although we could still run 50% sci @ +23 gpt). :)
(I) Shaka wants to exchange WM, we trade TM instead.

1265 AD (8)
I decide to mine two of the irrigated cows near Teo in order to get 25 spt. Might help our wonder building city.
We rush a knight in Malinalco and switch to market, now due in 10 turns.
We disband one Jag.

1270 AD (9)
(I) Wall Street is available now.

1275 AD (10)
Mil. Trad. known by Shaka & Joan, too. I do not trade for it. The decision is up to zenga.

COMMENTS TO THE NEXT LEADER:

* We have RoP with all civs, active deals with all but Hami. Toku is tech leader, Joan & Shaka following at his heels. I would buy techs when these three have it, giving some gpt always (reduces the chance of the AI breaking the treaty). Otto is behind, but starts getting up (esp after our payments to him). Hami (furious) is hopeless behind. We have a RoP with him, but I fear a sneak attack by him, nevertheless. We have 4 elite swords and 1 knight (our only one) over there, protected by 1 musket & 2 spears (1 vet & 1 reg).
* I have ordered one cannon in Babylon for the protection of Tula. Our military is terribly outdated, but strong compared to anyone except Japan. We are WEAK (!!!) compared to Japan. No need to waste lot of money on upgrades (Japan is far away), but we really should build more muskets (disband the reg spears then) and some knights for each island; we do not want to look like an easy prey.
* I have started to build some granaries in our core as most of our cities are growing slowly. None has completes yet, so feel free to veto that.
* Do not rush courts at the moment. The cities on Far Eastern Island & Iron Island are hopelessly corrupt. It might even be better to order aqueducts there before courts, but I am not sure. Huexotla (Fur Isle) & Zitlaltepec (Azteca) need to grow to size six and get into WLTKD first, then rush the courts. The market in Malinalco is already "cash supported", let is complete without further rushing.
* No prebuild started for Newton's yet. Feel free to veto the market in Teo (still our most productive city), but we could need the market (raises income & happyness). I would start Newton's after the market. Keep in mind: Magellan's has NOT been build yet. If ToG is discovered before Magellan's is build, we should investigate some of the AI's wonder building cities.
* Please, allow Teno (our capitol) to grow to size 12, even if that would mean lower production for some turns. On the long run, this is the better way (we need two productive cities for ToE & Hoover).
* Remember to start building Wall Street :) . I did not start it as it just became available.
* Lots of fortified worker's near Teayo, one fortified worker near Malinalco, all waiting for shuttle to home continent. ;)

Good luck, zenga! :)

theos: Happy travelling! :) I hope you will be able to play your turns from time to time or at least comment on our progress.

PS: Maybe someone wants to play 15 turns to bring us back to "even" year numbers?

PPS: No screenshot this time, nothing has changed.

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1275ad.zip

zenga

Jan 05, 2003, 04:58 PM

Got it, I'll probably play tomorrow evening after another read through of Physicist's report.

Good luck on your travels theos!:cool:

zenga

Jan 06, 2003, 04:22 PM

The Dawn of a New Era :cool:

1275AD(0)

Having a quick look around and the one thing that sticks out to me is our culture rating v the Japanese. We are way behind here and need to catch up quick. To do this I intend to build some cathedrals, as well as libraries and universities in our productive towns. We'll need the research buildings soon enough. The best way to gain a Diplomatic Victory without wars is through culture and gifting heavily, especially techs. Newton's would help with both, the best site is in the capital with it having lots of river tiles around.

The other big question is military. Personally, I normally use the upgrade path extensively with only a few regular troops maybe not upgraded. I decide to start a gradual upgrade, keeping in mind that we are still buying tech at the moment and that we wish to have over 1k in gold when Wall Street is complete.

Build orders changed as follows:

Nineveh uni>Wall St
Teno musket>library
Chico market>aqueduct
Babylon cannon>granary
Tlat musket>library
Shanghai market>aqueduct

Tula spear upgraded. Pike and spear in Teno upgraded, just in case Bab galley on shore decides to unload troops.

Decide not to buy Mil Trad yet, we have only 1 knight that can be upgraded and need defenders and infrastructure before cavalry.

Chartres, Isan' and Hlobane (French, Zulu and Japanese cities building Magellan's) all look to be pulling in around 12spt before corruption. Looks like Teo may be our only hope of getting Newton's.

1280AD(1)

Teo market>Palace(pre-build)
Canton market>library
Akkad market>courthouse
Ixta aqueduct>court

Japan has Magnetism but wants too much, will wait until French and Zulu get it. Gift Germans Physics.

1285AD(2)

Babylon granary>cathedral
Xo bank>cathedral

Gift Babs Banking. Upgrade a couple of spears on NE isles.

1290AD(3)

Calix market>uni
Tlaco granary>caravel

Renew ROP with France for WM and 8g from them. Gift Babs Economics.
Switched Tula to cathedral from market to gain more local culture.

1295AD(4)

Beijing court>aqueduct
Teno library>cathedral
Plant some trees in the Palace gardens.:)

Tepet temple rushed.

1300AD(5)

Ur knight>knight
Tlat library>caravel
Tlax granary>court
Tepet temple>walls
Japanese are building Newton's in Tokyo. Check trade and buy it from France for WM, 400g + 25gpt. Hope French use gold to buy Magnetism. Switch Teo to Newton's (due in 12).

1305AD(6)

Atzca granary>musket
French start Newton's in Tours (too late Joanie!).

1310AD(7)

Shanghai aqueduct>library
Zulu start Newton's in Bapedi.
French build Magellan's. Let's see what happens to the cascade.

1315AD(8)

Ashur granary>court

Japanese and Zulu switch Newton's to Magellan cities. Investigate Hlobane (Japan), Newton's in 3.:( Switch production in Teo to bank, wasting just 15 shields (1 turn).

1320AD(9)

Japan declare war on the Zulu!:eek:

Babylon cathedral>barracks
Teno cathedral>university
Teo bank>library
Nineveh Wall St>cathedral
Tlacopan caravel>cannon
Malinalco market>aqueduct

Magnetism finally affordable, buy from French for WM, 490g + 20gpt.

1325AD(10)

Tula cathedral>aqueduct
Palace upgraded.:)

Zulu finish Newton's first, don't think they'll keep the city long though.

1330AD(11)

Babylon barracks>knight
Ur knight>university
Ellipi market>uni
Xo cathedral>musket

1335AD(12)

Babs sign alliance with Japan v Zulu.

Atzca musket>barracks

Japan has Nationalism. Gift Germany ToG and Magnetism to bring the price down...eh'm...to foster good will.;)

1340AD(13)

France and Japan sign MPP.

Teo library>uni
Tlat galleon>cannon
Teayo musket>musket

Nationalism still pricy, buy Mil Trad from Germans for Spices, Incense, WM, 120g + 20gpt.

1345AD(14)

Our people want to build the Military Academy, maybe we should!

Atzca barracks>musket
Chico aqueduct>library

Trade with Zulu, get Nationalism for Saltpeter, 570g + 150gpt. They only have 3 cities left and may not survive that long. Hope that doesn't hurt our rep.

1350AD(15)

Nineveh cathedral>uni
Tlaco cannon>cannon
Tepet walls>barracks

Start to upgrade to rifles on islands.

Diplomacy. Everybody bar Babylon polite.

Military. We're strong against everyone apart from the Japanese, who we're weak compared to. After the Japanese take out the Zulu we should probably sign MPP's with France and Germany to ensure that they survive long enough to vote for us.

Research. 0%. Libraries and universities being built. 100% research would give us Steam Power in 6, this should come down soon when uni's are built, in time for self-research.

Treasury. 2855g, +248gpt. Gives us breathing room for full research at a big loss until we can pull ahead and start selling techs. As soon as Japan gets it's next tech I'd go full-on research for the rest of the game here.

The2 - 1350AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1350AD.zip)

jmansell>>Up
Zarth>>On deck

Good luck jmansell!

jmansell02

Jan 07, 2003, 02:50 AM

OHH NOOOO!!!!!!
:eek: :eek: :eek:
If a Civ is conquered while you still have a deal with them your rep is destroyed! I refer you to one of Sullla's RBCiv Epics at http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/games.html. (I can't remember which one. We will just have to either hope it isn't too bad or sign a military alliance against the Zulu's which may not hurt us so badly. I think we should call for advice! CALLING ANYONE OUT THERE! HELP! If anyone has any opinions on what to do in this situation help would be appreciated! (It would be helpful if Charis or Sirian could drop by!)

Anyway. Theos asked that we wait 24 hrs before skipping him. I intend to do that.

JMansell

Physicist

Jan 07, 2003, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by jmansell02
If a Civ is conquered while you still have a deal with them your rep is destroyed! I refer you to one of Sullla's RBCiv Epics at http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/games.html. (I can't remember which one. We will just have to either hope it isn't too bad or sign a military alliance against the Zulu's which may not hurt us so badly. I think we should call for advice! CALLING ANYONE OUT THERE! HELP! If anyone has any opinions on what to do in this situation help would be appreciated! (It would be helpful if Charis or Sirian could drop by!)
Unfortunately, I am neither Charis nor Sirian, but here are my ideas:

1. No MPP with Zululand or war with Japan as long as there are active treaties with Japan! With the treaties expired, I see war with Japan as an option as their vote is probably lost for us in any way; they are our natural "counter candidate" in the election and will vote for themselves. But, remember our weak military... If we intend to go that way, we must build our miliotaty immediately.

2. We could gift the Zulus money to strengthen their position (for upgrades!), maybe even strategic resourses.

3. JMansell, you are probably referring to Sullla's deity game with the Romans. Sullla faced a similar problem and found an interesting solution.
To discribe Sullla's situation: he was playing a trader/builder game with incredibly weak Romans (not meant as offence to Sulla :) . He played with an earlier patch with much faster tech pace on the high levels. Way beyond *my* skill level). Thus, he urgently needed a "white vest" in order to get good trades from the AIs. Then one of his trading partners was extincted by an other AI. He decided that this is not the intended way the game should go, but a bug that would ruin his game. Thus, he reloaded and "forced" his trading partner into a declaration of war on him by perfoming a risky espionage mission (which failed as expected), resulting in a canceled treaty and no rep hit on him. I agree with Sullla's argumentation and would see that as an option for us, too.
However, two things to keep in mind:
(a) we lack the Intelligence Agency. Can we perform a diplomatic mission that might lead to a war. I have never tried that before (only some successful city investigations).
(b) we have "strong" military compared to the Zulus, Sullla's was weak. Would the Zulus declare war on us?

Another thought: I vaguely remember a thread where someone (IIRC one of the top players, but I might be wrong on that one) stated that the strength of the rep hit depends on the kind of treaty that is broken (e.g. resources or gpt). Does anyone know something about that? It might influence our stratgy.

zenga

Jan 07, 2003, 02:00 PM

:smoke:

I wondered as soon as I clicked on the deal if this would hurt our rep with the other civs. Too bad I never bought from France.:(

My thinking at the time (other than trying to get a decent price) was actually to help the Zulu out, while protecting our interests. Giving them Saltpeter allows them to build cavalry. Giving them gpt reduces any money that Japan can sack from cities.

From Physicist:
Another thought: I vaguely remember a thread where someone (IIRC one of the top players, but I might be wrong on that one) stated that the strength of the rep hit depends on the kind of treaty that is broken (e.g. resources or gpt). Does anyone know something about that? It might influence our stratgy.

Unfortunately, as stated above the deal was for both resources and gpt.

1. No MPP with Zululand or war with Japan as long as there are active treaties with Japan! With the treaties expired, I see war with Japan as an option as their vote is probably lost for us in any way; they are our natural "counter candidate" in the election and will vote for themselves. But, remember our weak military... If we intend to go that way, we must build our miliotaty immediately.

MPP with the Zulu won't do any good at this stage. It's not worth getting into the fight, especially as the French have an MPP with Japan.
MPP with Japan will break the deal anyway. The only possible benefit could be if MPP's were signed with France and, possibly Germany, at the same time. The fact we become 'partners in crime' could save too big a rep hit.

Japan will be the other candidate in an election. Signing MPP's with France and Germany is vital at some stage, a war at the time of voting against Japan would swing the vote.

2. We could gift the Zulus money to strengthen their position (for upgrades!), maybe even strategic resourses.

Already gave them Saltpeter, I'm pretty sure they have horses. We're already giving them 150gpt, I think they may have enough for upgrades!

3.(a) we lack the Intelligence Agency. Can we perform a diplomatic mission that might lead to a war. I have never tried that before (only some successful city investigations).

The only other option would be to steal a tech and the Zulu don't have any other tech to steal.

3.(b) we have "strong" military compared to the Zulus, Sullla's was weak. Would the Zulus declare war on us?

Don't think so.

There are many variables still at play here. First among them is that the Zulu may survive until the trade is complete. They have already had a war in the past, before we made contact, and survived that. Here's hoping!

Zarth

Jan 07, 2003, 03:08 PM

About keeping the Zulu alive:

Zimbabwe needs to stay in Zulu hands, for that is their only city with a harbor. They must not lose this city to the Japanese!

We could stack some of our units in a ring around Zimbabwe.

To do this we need to hurry a galleon in Beijing and fill it with 4 units the next turn. The two units in Zitlaltepec, the spear Beijing and the cavalry in Xochicalco can be units for this galley.
I think it will take the galleon about 5 turns to reach Zimbabwe. We could supply the Zulu with some extra money to stay alive.

When the galleon arrives at Zimbabwe, it is important to move to the South and SW tile of the city first. The Japanese would have to attack across the river from the other tiles, giving the defender extra defensive power.

We should also use the galleon to keep the over-sea traderoute from Zimbabwe open.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-zimbabwe.jpg

Also investigating Zimbabwe every turn to check how many units are left might be a good idea. If necessary we could give them money to be able to hurry their units.

Just my thoughts on this matter, but I think we should be able to pull this off.

Arathorn

Jan 07, 2003, 03:24 PM

Another option is to ship across a few troops, get a RoP with Zulu and surround one of their cities with "peace keeping" forces, to guarantee that they will survive.

As for the rep hit, it makes trading MUCH more difficult -- the AI views it as a malicious breaking of "per turn" deal (for whatever reason) and thus will greatly devalue any luxes/resources/gpt deals you offer them, especially for hard goods. You can still buy tech with cash and trade "per turn" deals for "per turn" goods (e.g. trading 3 luxes and gpt for one lux still works). You can also win a diplo victory even after being labeled a "liar and a cheat" by the AI.

Without seeing the Zulu situation, I can't say for sure, but if their military is weak compared to yours and yours is weak compared to Japan's.... Well, I don't see Shaka surviving very long, even propped up (unless you can somehow get him Replaceable Parts, as the AI just dies vs. infantry, even conscripts, before tanks).

There are other options, but most of them depend on having a number of ships ready to cross over to where the conflict is ASAP. How long will it take your forces to reach there?

Selling a dying civ saltpeter was definitely risky.

Arathorn

EDIT: See some of my ideas have already been posted. This was my original post, however.

zenga

Jan 07, 2003, 05:51 PM

A galley would take 5 turns (1 to build, 4 for the voyage) to reach Zimbabwe. I did think about this possibility earlier but forgot to put it down. It's probably worth a shot, although it relies on the Zulu still being there in 5 turns and also favourable troop placements on the tiles we wish to occupy. There is also 1 other galley in the Beijing area (2 tiles away) that could be used if the first gets there in time.

We still have an ROP agreement with Shaka, due for renewal in 2 turns.

Question: Does an ROP deal with a dead civ count as deal breaking?

Arathorn

Jan 08, 2003, 08:20 AM

To the best of my knowledge, a RoP deal with a dead civ has no effect on attitudes. A gpt deal has minimal effect. A lux deal has some impact. A resource deal is pretty major. *BUT* I'm far from certain on any of those!

Another option would be to MPP with England and Germany and Zululand to get a whole big gangbang going on Japan. With trouble on his backside, Tokugawa might not be able to finish off the Zulus in time. Triggering all the MPPs properly might be challenging, though.

Arathorn

jmansell02

Jan 08, 2003, 11:58 AM

I have the file and will begin playing to the best of my ability as soon as possible.

JMansell

jmansell02

Jan 10, 2003, 10:59 AM

I'm sorry I've been holding things up a bit. I've been *REALLY* busy as I've just gone back to school. (Yes that's right, School, I'm only, well, lets just say I'm under 18) I will try (Between the tonnes of homework!) to play tonight and write a quick report. I will try to minimise the damage caused to our rep. as much as possible. I don not think it is possible to get off this unscathed. The Civ 3 AI rarely declares war as a result of demands but there is always hope, I hope! :)

JMansell

PS: I have now stopped calling myself JMansell02 as I would be out of date. Does anyone know of a way to change a username!

zenga

Jan 10, 2003, 11:21 AM

@jmansell: don't sweat it, I've just started work again this week and am feeling the pain too! As regards the state of the game, I don't think the Zulu could be provoked into a war. The possibility Zarth put down, of using the ROP with them to try and shield Zimbabwe, is IMO worth a shot. Even if our rep is damaged badly the game is still winnable through MPP's with France and Germany and a war versus Japan (our likely rival for the vote).

Another thing to look for, if Japan defeats or ends the war with the Zulu soon, is the high probability that they will go for France or Germany next, considering those 2 civs have weak military too. We must ensure that both civs survive for the vote. At the moment Japan and France have an MPP.

Good luck!

As far as username's go, I think you have to PM Thunderfall and ask for it to be changed, stating your reason.

jmansell02

Jan 10, 2003, 03:46 PM

OK, been busy, but I can promise that whatever happens, the upload will be ready with a small report by 9am tomorrow morning. Zarth, expect to see it there. I am really sorry to keep you all waiting. So far I have managed to evaluate the situation and now I just have to play the turns. I reckon I will be able to save the Zulus before they are annialated by the Japs. Also, when I was checking the game out, I noticed an example of AI madness. The Zulu's have ties up one of their cities in building Magellans when they are about to be wiped off the face of the Earth. Shaka, why are you building a wonder for your "trustworthy" friend Toga? Absolute MADNESS!

JMansell

jmansell02

Jan 11, 2003, 01:45 AM

Here it is. I'm sorry but I only had time to play 5 turns.

I rush a galley in Zitlaltepec and Beijing

Inter-turn:

GOOD NEWS… no Zulu cities are captured.

1210AD

Beijing: Caravel > Courthouse

Ur: Bank > University

Ashur: Aqueduct > Granary

Zitlaltepec: Caravel > Courthouse

I move forces towards Beijing. Caravel sets off for Isandhlwana. Will have peacekeeping forces in place in 3 turns.

1220AD

Tenochtitlan: Library > Bank

Talcopan: Bank > Caravel

1230AD

SHAKA MAKES PEACE!!!

Wow, all that bother for nothing!!! The Zulus still have 5 cities. I will still position my forces around the Zulu’s because I don’t want to lose their vote to a Japanese onslaught so it is in our interests to protect the Zulus.

I now take a risk. I will trade away Economics in 2 turns and hope there is no cascade. This means I will have 2 turns of +246 income.

Talcopan: Caravel > Caravel.

Interturn:

Germany: Territory Map for Territory Map.

1240AD

A caravel picks up 2 workers from the near eastern isle.

1250 AD
Japanese: 39gp + 59 gpt for Economics.

Zululand: Chemistry and Free Artistry for Economics.

Japanese: ROP + 1 gpt + 10g for ROP

1255AD

Teotihucan: Smiths Trading Company > Palace (Pre-build for Newtons)

Ixtapaluca: Aqueduct > Granary

Teayo: Courthouse > Aqueduct

Chalco: Courthouse > Aqueduct

I’m sorry but that’s all I’ve got time for.

The upload is at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2_-_1255AD.zip

JMansell

zenga

Jan 11, 2003, 04:25 AM

:confused: Did you play from the correct save?

@jmansell, I got all excited when your report said Shaka made peace...until I noticed you said he had 5 cities and then looked at the dates closely! :p

I'm pretty sure you must have picked up the wrong save by mistake. I did wonder how we managed to build Smith's twice! Looking at your previous post too, where you said Shaka is building Magellan's (already built and possible cause of war), should have given me a clue. ;)

If you're struggling for time to play let us know. I reckon it's OK to miss a round now and again. :)

zenga

Zarth

Jan 11, 2003, 04:38 AM

It seems you did pick the wrong save. You should have taken the 1350AD save, which was posted by zenga. What should I do now? play from the 1350Ad save, or let jmansell play?

jmansell02

Jan 11, 2003, 05:31 AM

@ Zarth

You go ahead and play. I did think it was a bit wierd that Shaka and Toga seemed quite friendly! It was a bit of a mistake wasn't it. Have fun!

JMansell

Physicist

Jan 11, 2003, 09:39 AM

What a week! Actually, I am glad about the slow progress of the game as I would not have been able to play this week, working all day long (and one complete night) in the lab. But I am back now.

Arathorn: Thanks for the support! The possibility proposed by Zarth and you (RoP & peacekeeping force) is definitely the best solution.

Good luck, Zarth!

Zarth

Jan 12, 2003, 12:05 PM

0. 1350AD
I switch beijing to galleon and I swith all cities bulding military units to something else (mostly universities and courthouses)

France declared war on the Zulu!

1. 1355AD
I investigate zimbabwe, they have 4 rifles and 1 cavalry. building longbowman, complete in 2 turns.

2. 1360AD
3. 1365AD
I investigate zimbabwe. they have 4 rifles and 1 longbowman. building rifleman, complete in 2 turns

4. 1370AD
5. 1375AD
peacekeeping force around zimbabwe established!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-zimbabwepeaceforce.jpg

6. 1380AD
7. 1385AD
start steam power research at -416gpt. research will finished in 5 turns.

8. 1390AD
9. 1395AD
zululand and france have signed a peace treaty!
germany and japan have signed a military alliance against zululand

10, 1400AD
we now have a full peace force around zimbabwe, including boats water tiles

11. 1405AD
we discover steam power. start industrialization.
I start railroad construction where we can.
Our capital Tenochtitlan can be build Iron Works!!!!!!!!! we start building it immediately

12. 1410AD
13. 1415AD
14. 1420AD
Babylon and Japan have signed a mutual protection pact.
The Zulu have lost all cities except Zimbabwe.

15.1425AD
16. 1430AD
our workers are still bulding railroads.
iron works in 4 turns

17.1435AD
18. 1440AD
19. 1445AD
20. 1450AD
We discover industrialization
Iron works completed in Tenochtitlan.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1450AD.zip

zenga

Jan 12, 2003, 04:27 PM

:goodjob: Blessed are the peacekeepers! :D

Great play Zarth! I guess we have one vote we can count on at least. And the Iron Works too! :D

Did you make any progress on the MPP's with France and Germany?

Physicist>>Up
zenga>>On deck

Physicist

Jan 13, 2003, 09:06 AM

Question:
The RoP with Zululand expires in two turns. Shall I continue protecting Zimbabwe, or can I bring our forces home, then? If we intend to keep the Zulus alive, we will have to protect them forever.
I would let them die in two turns for the following reasons:
*Now there are 6 civs on the planet, so we need four votes to win the game. If the Zulus die, we would need tree votes from five civs. No difference IMHO, and we do not pin down forces for peacekeeping.
*Furthermore, we might annoy the other civs by permanently blocking their conquest forces (however, I am not sure about that).
* No rep. hit for us.
What is your opinion?

(Edit: Typo)

zenga

Jan 13, 2003, 11:59 AM

As things stand at the moment with 6 civs (and Japan as our rival):

We would need 3 votes. Zulu is 1 for us, Babylon 1 for Japan, France and Germany must both be persuaded.

With only 5 civs:

We would need 2 votes. Babylon for Japan, France and Germany undecided but enough to win a vote if sweetened up.

You're right Physicist, the Zulu vote is not vital, but it could be important if either the French or Germans abstain or vote how we don't expect (we don't know a lot about their relations with Japan). The most important decision IMO is to get MPP's pronto with both France and Germany, for helping relations and to ensure they last the game. Remember that the Japanese have already taken out Russia before we made contact and they look to be fairly aggressive in this game. A war that they instigate against us or a civ that we have an MPP with would probably guarantee us enough votes.

There is another factor here also, we are supposed to be Prophets of Peace! Can we turn our backs while our friends the Zulu are massacred?

As far as annoying other civs conquest plans, although the Germans have a military alliance with Japan, it will only be the Japanese that are truly thwarted and this may be to our advantage if we have the right alliances ourselves in place. Zarth mentioned that France had made peace with Shaka, do they still have an MPP with Japan - no actual fighting has taken place for a while so it is possible?

This is quite a difficult situation since there are so many variables at play. Without looking at Zarth's save I'd be tempted to leave the troops there and sign another ROP at the moment. Whether that's the best solution, I don't know for sure. It certainly isn't the easiest one.

I guess I better look at the save before I say any more!:D

Physicist

Jan 13, 2003, 01:58 PM

zenga: I agree on the MPP.

Do you know if we annoy the other civs if we permanetly block their troops? I had such a situation when I blocked a settler pair (I don't remember if it was my territory or neutral territory) for a longer time and the civ got more and more angry with me. It might be possible that I had completely trapped the AI's units, again I don't remember.

Concerning the votes: did I understand your post wrong, or is there a misunderstanding? Do we agree that one needs a majority of the votes to win the elections, thus 4 votes out of 6 or 3 votes out of 5, always including our own vote?

Will start playing soon. Without further comments from the team I will sign a new RoP and keep the peacekeeping force at its current position.

zenga

Jan 13, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Physicist
Do you know if we annoy the other civs if we permanetly block their troops? I had such a situation when I blocked a settler pair (I don't remember if it was my territory or neutral territory) for a longer time and the civ got more and more angry with me. It might be possible that I had completely trapped the AI's units, again I don't remember.

This is a situation I've not encountered before and can't give a definite answer. Maybe an experienced player reading can tell us? (It's at least given me a question for Civ3 Gen Discussions!)

The only civ I can see being too upset are the Japanese, with their conquest held up until Advanced Flight unless they decide to declare on us first. Another question is whether this could be considered an exploit if carried on indefinitely? Again, I'm not too sure, I've certainly never seen this mentioned anywhere. The peacekeeping role certainly fits in with the theme of the game.

Concerning the votes: did I understand your post wrong, or is there a misunderstanding? Do we agree that one needs a majority of the votes to win the elections, thus 4 votes out of 6 or 3 votes out of 5, always including our own vote?

Yes, we agree! A majority is required to win the vote. I was assuming that the participants in a vote would vote for themselves! :)

Physicist

Jan 13, 2003, 06:04 PM

Betrayed
or: The Wrong Decision

Physicist's report on the years 1450 AD to 1500 AD.

MY TURNS:

1450 AD (0)

We are a peaceful nation, aren't we?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1450AD-F3.jpg

However, I would like to have some offensive troops (2-3 cavalries) per island/continent to deter our opponents from war and react on possible naval landing of enemy troops (4-6 up-to-date enemy units landing on one of our colony islands could *really* cost us some nerves). If we get into MPP, we must prepare for at least limited military action.
We control a decent amount of workers (nearly 80, not counting slaves), which a good thing as our lands are still not completely developed. However, I don't think we will need much more of them.
Thus, I decide to change some of the "worker" build orders to cavalry.

Change several infrastructure build orders (mostly universities & banks) to factory.

No great wonder is currently been built by the AIs. Suffrage is already available to us. We will start a prebuild for ToE and Hoover soon.
Teno (our capitol) is again stuck (at size 11), MM for growth (growth in 8, factory still in 4 turns). Teno is the only decent city located at a river, thus our site for Hoover. With factory, coal plant and Iron Works it will produce more than 100 spt, thus being able to build ToE in 6 turns, Suffrage in 8 turns and Hoover in 10 turns. The AI cities will not be able to keep up with this powerhouse, so we might even build ToE & Hoover in Teno. However, we should try to get Suffrage, too, in order to break the cascade. Can we build all the three wonders in Teno?

Teo (home of our FP and Smith's) is at size 6; I stop worker production here and start a factory. This is the city that should build ToE or Suffrage! I will have a look at its growth; maybe we will have to join workers into Teo.

Diplomacy: Japan, Germany & France know Communism, Germany lacks Steam. There is a MPP between Japan & Babylon.
We sign MPP with Germany; additionally, we get Communism. We give Steam Power, Incence, Spices, 10 gpt & 290g. Otto goes from "polite" to "gracious".
We sign MPP MPP with France; we give 3 gpt & 7 g. Joan goes from "polite" to "gracious".
Science to 50% for some more gpt, Medicine due in 8 turns (7 turns before).
We renew RoP with Japan.

(I) France & Japan sign MPP
France starts Suffrage in Orleans (~11 spt w/o factory, no danger for Teno :) ).

1455 AD (1)

1460 AD (2)

Renew lux deal with France: for Ivory we give Incense, Spices, 17 gpt & 15g
Renew RoP with Germany: (Otto is unwilling to give anything for RoP this time, last time he gave 3 gpt)
Renew lux deal with Japan: For Wines we give Spices, Incense & 1gpt
Renew RoP with Zululand
Renew RoP with Babylon. We get 3 gpt.

Sci to 60% again, gaining one turn to discovery.

(I) France & Japan sign a military alliance against Zululand, France declares war on Zululand

1465 AD (3)

(I) Germany and Zululand sign a peace treaty! (However, the other AIs are still at war with poor Shaka).

1470 AD (4)

zzz

1475 AD (5)

Teno: rush Colloseum and switch back to Coeal Plant to get Coal Plant one turn earlier (due in 1).

1480 AD (6)

Sci back to 40%, Medicine due in 1 turn
Perfect Timing, Japan & France discover Espionage this turn :)

Suffrage started in Teno

(I) Zululand & Japan sign Peace treaty.
We discover Med, start Sanitation (due in 6 turns @ 60%sci)
The Japs start Suffrage in Kagoshima (no danger again)

1485 AD (7)

Beijing gets its first defender (ever?) :)
We trade Medicine to France for Espionage, Dyes, WM, 28 gpt & 170g
Medicine to Japan for 70g & WM (not willing to give gpt)
Medicine to Germany for WM
Medicine to Zululand for WM

They love us! (At least I thought that, until...)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1485AD-war.jpg

(I) The Japs declare war on us (we loose our supply of wines).
Argl, It happened the way I feared!
We loose our complete peacekeeping force (land units).
Intelligence Agency available.

1490 AD (8)

We have 14 more turns of RoP with Shaka, no other deals with him. We can not protect him anymore, but we have other problems, actually. We start building even more military. I really fear some troops landing on one of our colony islands... We have *really* weak military there.

Our ships retreat from the coast of Zululand

Renew RoP with France

(I) Shaka (remembered as "The Idiot" is moving Rifles out of his last city :rolleyes: )
We loose one galleon.

1490 AD (9)

(I) Shaka wants a alliance vs Babylon, we decline
France declares war on Japan (finally)
Germany declares war on Japan
Germany starts Suffrage
Babylon declares war on France

1500 AD (10)

COMMENTS TO THE NEXT LEADER:

The game is quite messed up right now, sorry for that.

* Keeping the peacekeeping forces after the time when our deals with the Zulus expired was :smoke: . Maybe even the MPP were :smoke: ; I normally don't sign MPPs and was tempted to try it here, but they might bring as into a war with Babylon, as:
* Probably we will auto-declare war on Babylon due to the MPP with France and Babylon's declaration of war on France
* Let Teno complete Suffrage, we should get it. I would propose to build both ToE AND Hoover in Teno. Another option would be to rush Coal Plant in Teo and build ToE there, but I think Teno could get both wonders as we will break the Suffrage Cascade before Sci Meth is descovered. And no city in the world is a match for Teno :)
* Attention: Japanese naval forces appeared near Zitlaltepec, some galleons among the frigates. I left the decision what troops to move there up to you, zenga. We must bring defenders from other cities. Our only offensive troops (four cavs) are locateded in the middle of Azteca, waiting for your orders. There is one Ironclad near Niniveh.

Good luck, zenga! You might need it...
The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1500AD.zip

zenga

Jan 13, 2003, 06:47 PM

Got it!

Posted by Physicist

The game is quite messed up right now, sorry for that.

* Keeping the peacekeeping forces after the time when our deals with the Zulus expired was weed. Maybe even the MPP were; I normally don't sign MPPs and was tempted to try it here, but they might bring as into a war with Babylon, as:
* Probably we will auto-declare war on Babylon due to the MPP with France and Babylon's declaration of war on France

I got a bit worried when I saw the title of your report, but IMO this is almost exactly what we wanted. Germany and France are now aligned directly against Japan and will not easily forget their enemies, or who their friends are! War against Babylon is inevitable, and justified! Their vote would be hard to get anyway...err, they always were a warlike people who would not adopt our peaceful ways!:lol:

The only down sides are the timing, a bit early, and the destruction of the peaceful Zulu nation. Shaka RIP. :(

The war with Japan won't be pretty, but with a build up of our Peace Corps, should be managable with good luck and planning. If, and when, we gain the upper hand we'll have to make sure and leave the Japanese in a fairly decent state to ensure they are still our opposition at the end. Immediate aims have to be securing our own lands and then aiding the French and Germans as necessary.

I'll not be playing until tomorrow evening if anybody wants to throw in some ideas.

zenga

Physicist

Jan 14, 2003, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by zenga
I got a bit worried when I saw the title of your report, but IMO this is almost exactly what we wanted. Germany and France are now aligned directly against Japan and will not easily forget their enemies, or who their friends are! War against Babylon is inevitable, and justified! Their vote would be hard to get anyway...err, they always were a warlike people who would not adopt our peaceful ways!:lol:

The only down sides are the timing, a bit early, and the destruction of the peaceful Zulu nation. Shaka RIP. :(

Well, I agree that the war matches our future plans, but the timing is terrible. Actually, I do not fear the Japanese invasion force on our home continent. Railnet is nearly complete there, so we can handle the situation by shuffling around defenders between the cities and by using the four cavs. More cavs will be finished soon, esp. as Teo has a factory now and is pumping our one unit per two turns. However, the invasion will pin down our troops to the home continent. Our colony islands are in bad shape (speaking about military). I am not sure if Tula (2 rifles, 1 sword) can hold against the first wave of the Bab military, and if the AI lands some troops on any of our islands, we will likely loose cities (one defender per city only). (I have already mentioned that in the beginning of my report.)
I intended to improve that situation by building cavs. If you have a look at the file, you will find one galleon on each side (W & E) of continent. They were intended to bring some cavs to the colonies. Now this will be difficult with the Japanese navy "floating around".

BTW, be aware of the Japanese navy. During my turns (before the war) a stack of one *dozen* :eek: Jap Frigates passed Iron Isle. They probably will show up at our coast in the near future, unless they turn and go for Germany/France.

Arathorn

Jan 14, 2003, 08:23 AM

the destruction of the peaceful Zulu nation

I don't think I've ever read those words without them dripping sarcasm before! :) :lol: :)

Another possible action to consider would be drafting in some of your island colonies. Not heavily, but a unit or two can make a difference, especially since you're so thin militarily.

Arathorn

Zarth

Jan 14, 2003, 12:55 PM

I suggest we put our science to 0% and hurry military units on the island which are so lightly defended.
I believe we are religious, so we could switch to communism to be able to draft extra units.

Physicist

Jan 14, 2003, 05:25 PM

Arathorn: Thanks again for the help. :) It's great to get support from outside the team.

I agree that we should be able to handle the situation with rushbuing and/or drafting units on our colony islands, as proposed by Arathorn and Zarth.

Zarth: Do you really think it is necessary to go to communism? We are able to draft in democracy/republic/monarchy, too, and are able to rushbuy, an advantage that I would prefer not to loose. Additionally, it's "wonder building time" now, and communism would weaken our strong cities.

zenga

Jan 14, 2003, 10:51 PM

Just time for a quick report, these turns took about 4 hours! :eek:

1500AD(0)

Have a good look around and upgrade a few muskets. Draft a rifle out of Atzca.
Reduce sci to 50%, Sanitation still in 3. Will possibly switch off research afterwards per Zarth's suggestion.

1505AD(1)

Pre-turn: Large fleet of Japanese frigates show up and start bombing iron mountain near Zitla.

Ur cannon>cannon
Teo rifle>cavalry
Nineveh ironclad>ironclad
Aztca rifle>cavalry

1510AD(2)

Pre-turn: Frigates continue bombardment. Two Jap galleys unload 8 cavalry on jungle near Zitla.:eek:
Babylon cavalry>cavalry
Ashur ironclad>ironclad
Tlat factory>cavalry

Manage to take out cavalry with troops from all over. :D Lose 1 cavalry, 1 rifle and 2 musket.

1515AD(3)

Pre-turn: yet more bombardment.

Sanitation researched, start Electricity with lone scientist at Tepet (Iron isle).
Trade with French. Sanitation for Corporation, WM + 325g.

Teo cavalry>Intelligence Agency
Calix cavalry>cavalry
Tula bank>cavalry
Chalco worker>worker

Take out 2 frigates with ironclads, 1 promotes to elite.

All muskets now upgraded. All but 4 spear upgraded, a lot were regulars but decided to do it now rather than later.

Babylon have an MPP with Japan but haven't declared war on
us? :confused:

1520AD(4)

Pre-turn: Classic stuff here! Shaka signs a military alliance WITH Japan against Germany! What a dolt! :lol:

Zulu declare war on Germany.

Lose an ironclad to a frigate after it took one out.

Complete Universal Suffrage in our capital! Start on Military Academy, Teno can crank out an army every 4 turns. :D

Ur cannon>cannon
Ellipi cavalry>cavalry
Texcoco cavalry>cavalry
Tlac ironclad>ironclad

1525AD(5)

Tlat cavalry>cavalry
Shanghai cathedral>barracks
Xo factory>cavalry
Tamuin aqueduct>rifle

Another galleon approaches, fortify on mountain near Zitla to avoid them landing there.

Trade Bismark Sanitation for 90g + 4gpt.

1530AD(6)

Pre-turn: more bombardment. 4 cav land near Zitla.

Nineveh ironclad>ironclad
Ixta worker>barracks
Cempoala worker>barracks
Tepexpan worker>barracks

Japanese cavalry defeated without loss but no promotions. Our elite ironclad loses to the vet ironclad escort which does promote.

Our continent is now clear of jungle.

1535AD(7)

Pre-turn: more bombardment (just as well we have so many workers!). Another galleon with escort is seen arriving from N.

Babylon cavalrt>cavalry
Ur cannon>cannon
Shanghai barracks>cavalry
Tlax factory>ironclad
Tzin aqueduct>rifle

1540AD(8)

France and Japan sign a peace treaty.

Japan approaches us and asks for a peace treaty. He'll also give us 120g, his economy must be starting to hurt, he has no techs we don't and lacks Sanitation. I decline the treaty for now since I don't want to hurt our rep with the Germans (ultra wary after last time!).

Pre-turn: galleon fleet turn sharp E, towards our islands there.

Teno completes the Military Academy, start army.
Tlat cavalry>cavalry
Canton university>barracks
Calix cavalry>cavalry
Tlac ironclad>ironclad
Atzca cavalry>rifle
Chalco worker>barracks

Move 8 cavalry toward NE islands in galleons. Lose an ironclad against fleet escort ironclad.

Rush barracks on largest NE isle, if we're going to rush troops they may as well be vet.

1545AD(9)

Pre-turn: Japan and Babylon sign a trade embargo against us! More bombardment.

Xo cavalry>cavalry
Malinalco rifle>barracks
Teayo rifle>rifle
Cempoala barracks>rifle
Huextola market>walls
Tepex barracks>rifle
Chico cathedral>cannon

Wondered how France made peace with Japan. I didn't realise our MPP had expired. I'm going to leave it one more turn to see if Germany makes peace when their MPP runs out. A combination of drafting and moving troops should see our islands safe.

1550AD(10)

Pre-turn: Lose another ironclad, 1 wins and promotes. Japanese turn back from islands back towards our mainland.

France and Zulu sign a peace treaty.

Ur cannon>cannon
Texcoco cavalry>cavalry
Canton barracks>cavalry
Tula cavalry>rifle
Tula sword>sword (cheap home guard)

German MPP over after this turn. Leave it up to the next leader whether to renew it now. Letting it expire will probably see a peace treaty between Germany and Japan soon. Japan IMO wants peace soon - they are in Communism. We aren't hurting too badly from the war, although we have lost a few ironclads. The Japanese fleet headed for the islands is just E of Beijing, half way between the first isle and the mainland. It will show up again next turn I think.

Once peace with Japan is established the MPP's with France and Germany could be renewed. France will renew now (along with Germany) if the next leader feels like staying at war for a while longer. Japan is not a threat at this point, they are too far away to get lots of troops over, especially if France and Germany nip at their heels back home. The area they seem to have a huge advantage is their navy, it must be quite large. So far, with a mainly defensive war we are coping OK and would continue to do so. I drafted sparingly, mostly on the 2 NE islands to occupy coastal tiles and prevent them landing.

We are still in Democracy at this stage, I didn't feel any need to change. Reduction of science spending has increased our treasury to well over 3k gold (it might be more), even with some rushing. Nobody has overtaken us in tech yet, Japan has Sanitation now though.

Here's the save.......

The2 -1550AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1550AD.zip)

theos>>(on tour :) )
jmansell>>Up
Zarth>>On deck

jmansell02

Jan 15, 2003, 01:26 AM

This time I will try to pick up the right save!!!

I was thinking about fortifying units around the coast of all the islands. This is not considered an exploit by RBCiv so long as they are military units. If we cover the top tip of the main island we can pick off the ships with iron clads as they go by. The frigates cannot kill units by bombardment so they are safe until they get marines. I will wait the 24 hours as theos requested and then try to find a time to play if anyone has any thoughts or suggestion as to what I could do next now is the time to make them heard.

JMansell

jmansell02

Jan 17, 2003, 02:48 PM

The empire is in a good state. I think we’re going to win this one! I intend to rush to Sci. Meth. And build TOE. I therefore put the research to 60% and we will have electricity in 8 turns. I also intend to build the navy and rule the waves. Interturn I renew a MPP with Germany to keep them happy.

1555AD (1) – I realise that by moving around my troops I can prevent the Japs from landing. I begin building fortresses all around the island to stop the Japs landing and so I can fire at passing units.

1560AD (2) – I renew a RoP with Bismarck and our lux deal with the French

1565AD (3) – I changed a few build orders from units to factories. BABS DECLARE WAR

1570AD (4) – Move some troops, the French have refining.

1575AD(5)– I change the capital to production of riflemen. The Zulu’s have captured Kish!!!

1580AD(6– I change a few build orders to Factories. The Babs have recaptured Kish.

1585AD(7)-I discover Electricity but Joan will not trade it for refining. I decide to wait because she wants 1170gp!!! I launch an assault of 2 cavalry on Samara for fun and, IT SUCEEDS!!!

1590AD (8) – widespread rioting in former Bab cities. I capture Uruk.

1595AD (9) –

1600AD (10)– French capture Kish

1605AD (11) – due to huge amounts of War Weariness I make peace with the Japs.

1610AD (12) – I capture Lagash and destroy the babs. I could have kept them alivebut their vote was lost anyway so I killed them.

1615AD (13) – I finish Sci. Meth. And start TOE. I also put sci. research down to 0%

1620AD (14) – I decide not to give away electricity as no one has anything worthwile to offer for it.

1625AD (15) – Joan has now discovered Electricity but she still wants ridiculous prices for Refining and Steel.

I’m sorry I only wrote a brief report but those turns took an AGE to play! Nothing much happened in all that time though. Some may question my decision to hold on to Electricity but in response, no one had anything more than 20 gpt to offer for it and so I could see no point. Also Refining and Steel cost a fortune. I see no need to buy them until we have Rep parts and radio.

Here is the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1625AD.zip

JMansell

Zarth

Jan 18, 2003, 05:23 AM

got it!!!

Zarth

Jan 18, 2003, 06:51 AM

0. 1625AD
I decide not to sign MPPs as the zulu are still at war with the Germans.
Also I will not continue any more troop building as our units are already taking 193 gpt.

1, 1630AD
I switch science to 60%. Atomic theory in 10 turns.

2. 1635AD
I sign an ROP with the Zulu, they give us 3 gpt.
I also disband a few military units.
science back to 0% as I discover we will complete theory of evolution next turn :smoke:

3. 1640AD
we complete theory of evolution. atomic theory and electronics discovered, start researching replacable parts @ 60%.

4. 1645AD
I sell electricity to the Germans for dyes+worldmap+56gold+19gpt
to the zulu for 32gold+silks+worldmap+4gpt+ROP
I switch all coal plants to something else.

5. 1650AD
6, 1655AD
start battlefield medicine in teotihuacan.

7. 1660AD
disbanding units and merging workers into cities.

8. 1665AD
I sign an ROP with the germans, they give us 1gpt+worldmap

9. 1670AD
we discover replacable parts, start radio.

10. 1675AD
we complete Hoover Dam in Tenochtitlan.

The French have refining and steel. we have atomic theory and replacable parts. I suggest we discover radio first, before buying refining and steel from the French. If we are lucky they will have traded these techs with some other civs.
About MPP's: The Germans are at war with the Zulu so I have not signed MPP's with those civs. but I think we can sign an MPP with the French, they are not at war with anyone.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1675AD.zip

Physicist

Jan 18, 2003, 01:04 PM

Got it!

Physicist

Jan 19, 2003, 02:44 PM

Physicist's report on the years 1675 AD to 1750 AD.

Probably my last turns in this game...

MY TURNS:

1675 AD (0) Inherited turn

Why are we building fortesses along our whole coast? We do not have the military to man them, so if enemy units land on our home continent, *they* will get a defense bonus. Or am I wrong here?

We (as usually ;) ) have an incredibly weak military. Two of our cities are undefended; we are lacking a navy.

Four of our cities are starving, but I can't do anything against it. Xochicalco is starving at size 12 and building a granary (?), I switch to infantry.
Niniveh on Galleon.
I veto the worker builds on Western Island; we have sleeping workers on our home continent.

On the positive side, everyone except Japan is polite towards us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1675ad-spies.jpg

We try to plant a spy in Kyoto for 85g AND SUCCEED.
We try to plant a spy in Paris for 114g AND FAIL.
We try to plant a spy in Berlin for 104 g AND SUCCEED.

To any possible lurkers: Have a look at that one (that's why I am talking about weak military) :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1675ad-f3.jpg

1680 AD (1)

In this and the following turns, we start building mainly Infantry in the core.
We upgrade our three Cannon to Artillery

1685 AD (2)

We start to transport workers from the eastern islands to the home continent and from the home continent to undeveloped (recently captured) former Babylon.

1690 AD (3)

We renew RoP with France

(I) Shaka wants a MPP, we decline.
We complete Battlefield Med. (I would not have built it as it would have been a nice prebuild for the UN in Teon (where we can not build the palace), but with Iron Works city Teno a prebuild is not crutial, and I would have wasted shields by changing the build order.)
Lot of Pollution; global warming turns one grassland into plains

1695 AD (4)

zzz (lot of moving around Infantry, reinforcing our colonies)

(I) The French have destroyed the Zulus :( (RIP Shaka)
ARGL! Several of our cities riot, WLTKDs end! I did check F1 before hitting return, and everthing was ok! That means: WE HAD A LUX DEAL WITH THE ZULUS! :eek:
I have another, this time very close look at the last report (obviously, I did not do that before) and check the last autosave file and, indeed, we had bought Silks from Shaka!
The only thing to say in my favor is that I would not have been able to bring a peacekeeping force to Zululand within four turns, even if I had recognized the danger and had tried to protect Shaka.
We will have to live with the rep hit and see what happens...

1700 AD (5)

Note that there is peace finally between all (remaining) civs on this planet.

More bad news: Joanie (and Toku) have researched Atomic Theory. Should have traded it to them earlier, but I had hoped for Toku or Otto discovering Steel or Refining, allowing for a "two-for-one deal". Bad luck.

I decide that we need a sixth luxury again, so I start trading:

Sell Electronics to France for Refining, 25 gpt & 140 g
Wines from Japan for Incense, Spices & 1gpt
Refining to Japan for WM, 66 gpt & 120g
MPP with Germany (Polite to Gracious)
MPP with France, we get 80 g
Finally, I decide to gift Refining to Bismarck; he is falling behind in tech considerably, but we don't want him become too backward as (1) he is worthless as a trading partner then and (2) Toku might decide to attack Otto and start a world war.

The diplomatic situation now:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1700ad-f4.jpg

Checking Resources: There are only two sources of oil on this beautiful planet, one in German territory, the other one -guess where- ON OUR HOME CONTINENT (in the desert near Ur)!

1705 AD (6)

Toku has Electronics
Sell Radio to France for Steel, WM, 53 gpt & 150g
Toku lacks Steel & Radio, but has only Silks to offer (he probably gave all his money to Joanie for Electronics), so I decline; I do not want to give to much "tech for per-turn-payment" to Toku as that might make a war against us look attractive to him.
I gift Replaceable Parts to Otto; he is the only one lacking it, and it will help him to defend his Oil

The Tech situation:
We are on one level with Joan, Toku is two techs behind, Otto four techs behind.
We start Combustion at 80% sci, due in 5 turns, +60 gpt (we get 164 gpt from the4 other civs...)

I remember that we are lacking a spy in Paris. I try to plant one for 114 gpt, but we fail again.

1710 AD (7)

(I) Toku offers RoP & MPP, but we have to pay 21 gpt. We decline and trade TM instead.

1720 AD (9)

Joanie knows Combustion! Damn, that girl *is* fast. Combustion due in 1 turn for us...

(I) we discover Combustion, start Mass Production

1725 AD (10)

Toku has discovered Steel, so I gift Steel to Otto

1740 AD (13)

Toku discovered Combustion

(I) We discover Mass Production, start Motor Transport

1745 AD (14)

We renew our Dyes buy with Germany for Combustion
Joanie has Flight!
We buy Flight for Mass Production, WM, 10gpt & 1040g

1750 AD (15)

Toku has Mass Production

COMMENTS TO THE NEXT LEADER:

* The rep hit is unlucky, but I don't think it will hurt us badly in the election. Everyone else has broken treaties, too. Otto is gracious, Joan is polite, and, well, Toku is furious, of course.
* Zenga, you will have the honour to start building the UN! In less than 20 turns, we will be able to hold the election. :)
* With 80% sci we are quite short of money. I would not upgrade rifles as many of our cities are able to crank out an infantry every second turn. I have started replacing rifles with infantry, disbanding the rifles in cities with infrastructure builds.
* Joanie is only one turn behind our research, unless she starts wasting beakers on optional techs.
* Most of the fortified naval units have movement points left
* We don't have a spy in Paris; I have tried to plant one two times and failed. However, the lacking spy does not really hurt us.

Good luck, zenga!

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1750ad.zip

zenga

Jan 19, 2003, 03:31 PM

Got it.

zenga

Jan 19, 2003, 08:29 PM

Japan's last hurrah! :D

1750AD(0)

Switch Teno from wealth production to airport. Plan to produce some quick bombers from here.

Teo switched to Palace for UN pre-build. Will save a turn or two and leave Teno producing military units in one turn.

Trade Germans Atom Theory for WM, 40g + 13gpt. Will possibly gift the Germans the necessary tech for them to enter the Modern Age at the same time as us, on the off chance that they gain Fission as their tech.

1752AD(1)

Lots of builds complete.

1754AD(2)

Gift Germans Electronics.

1756AD(3)

Renew ROP with Germans. Renew ivory deal with France.

Motorized Transport researched, start Fission at 100% (-262gpt, 6 turns). French now have Amphib Warfare. Don't trade yet.

Japanese galleon and ironclad heading our way, off NW coast of mainland. They must be up to something. Decide to trade tech for silks since it looks like they'll want war anyway. Get silks, WM, 60g + 2gpt for Radio.

Gift Germans Radio.

1758AD(4)

More of Japan's fleet show up on our N coast near Beijing. They're up to something definitely! Our new battleships head for intercept as well as our fully stocked carrier.

With war imminent, trade France MT for AmWar + 1200g. Gift Germans Mass Production.

1760AD(5)

Our first tank rolls off the production line in Teno, we'll need them.

The fortress factor on our coastline is taking a lot of watching. If the Japanese land infantry they could be difficult to dislodge. When I started building the fortresses it was only for coastal hills and mountains that would be defended anyway. The fact we will be blocking a landing force on our mainland will likely make Toku look to the NE islands, indeed one escorted galleon is already on it's way there.

Rush airports at Tamuin and Chalco in case islands need support.

Decide to ask Japanese to leave, knowing they will declare war. The reason for this was so we could get a first strike in with our bombers and artillery and hopefully stop their transports reaching the nearest NE isle. Japan's ironclads are bombed down to 1 HP each.

1762AD(6)

France and Germany declare war on Japan.

All islands have an airport.

Bombard invasion fleet and sink 2 ironclads and a frigate.

Trade France furs for 240g. Gift Germany spices. Both are gracious.

1764AD(7)

Sink another few ships.

1766AD(8)

Fission researched, start Computers.

Renew ROP with France.

Switch Teo to UN, due in 5.

Sink another couple of ironclads. Japan has quite a few marines now, but only 1 galleon left!

Trade Bismark Flight for 50g + 20gpt.

1768AD(9)

Start to bomb improvements on mainland Japan.

1770AD(10)

MPP's renewed with France and Germany.

The once mighty Japanese navy now consists of 1 galleon and 8 ironclads! :lol:

They have lots of infantry and marines but no transport for them. In the last 6 or 7 turns we have produced 16 tanks. I've kept building them but this can probably be stopped now.

UN is due in 4 turns. France and Germany are both gracious and we have tech to trade or gift as appropriate (Computers can be researched quicker if necessary). :)

theos>>(if you're able you can finish this game!)

otherwise...

jmansell>>Up (and the honour of being elected Secretary General! :D )

Can't access the file server just now, so I'll post the save later today.

zenga

Jan 20, 2003, 03:55 AM

Here's the save.

The2 - 1770AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1770AD.zip)

Good luck! ;)

Physicist

Jan 20, 2003, 04:18 AM

:nono: on Toku! (Although, I admit, I would have done the same in his situation :D )

:thumbsup: Zenga! Great performance in crippling the (once) mighty Japanese navy.

Maybe I should mention that I did not waste the production power of mighty Iron Works city Teno on Wealth. 15 of the many infantry you found in our cities at 1700 AD where "made in Teno". I switched to Wealth in 1750 AD (my last turn) as I had the feeling that we could reduce the production speed of military units (which was wrong, of course :( ). Your solution with the prebuild in Teo and unit production in powerhouse Teno showed to be the better one.

However, there is something I do not understand from your report. Maybe you could be as kind as to explaining it to me so that I can learn from your moves. :)

Originally posted by zenga
Decide to trade tech for silks since it looks like they'll want war anyway. Get silks, WM, 60g + 2gpt for Radio.

If I understand you correctly, you gave the tech for a (mainly) per turn paymant in exspectation of a declaration of war, which is equivalent to a gift as, when he declares war, he gets the full value of the tech and we get a small amount of the per-turn-payment only. Was it your intention to give Toku a gift in order to improve his opinion about our nation, or did I misunderstand your report?

@ Theos / JMansell (whoever plays the next turns): Good luck in the election! Lead peaceloving Azteca to victory! :)

jmansell02

Jan 20, 2003, 01:03 PM

I feel it would be appropriate for Theos to finish the came but I don't think he is going to be able to... THEOS.... CAN YOU HEAR ME???... WANNA PLAY?...

Anyway, on a more sensible note. I am REALLY busy at the moment. Tomorrow lunchtime at school I am meant to be, running in a Cross country meet, playing in an orchestra, singing in a chior, playing cricket, and seeing a teacher about a drama production, all at the same time!!! What madness! If theos doesn't pick it up, Zarth is free to win or, if he's gone then Physicist, you can have the honours.

JMansell

zenga

Jan 20, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Physicist
However, there is something I do not understand from your report. Maybe you could be as kind as to explaining it to me so that I can learn from your moves. :)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by zenga
Decide to trade tech for silks since it looks like they'll want war anyway. Get silks, WM, 60g + 2gpt for Radio.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I understand you correctly, you gave the tech for a (mainly) per turn paymant in exspectation of a declaration of war, which is equivalent to a gift as, when he declares war, he gets the full value of the tech and we get a small amount of the per-turn-payment only. Was it your intention to give Toku a gift in order to improve his opinion about our nation, or did I misunderstand your report?

Physicist, you read my intentions pretty well. I don't think there is much to learn from this trade, other than the 'way' I like to play the game.

I wouldn't ordinarily have offered such a deal. As you mentioned in your last turn report, a per-turn deal from Japan for tech would have been asking for them to declare war.

The situation that changed this was the sighting of an escorted galleon coming straight for our lands. The Japanese were going to declare war anyway. I made the deal for several reasons, most of them not tactical, but to play in the spirit of the game.

The main points I looked at were:

1. Even though Toku was furious with us (for a war he started!), and I knew he was on the warpath again, we still gave him a good deal. It was highly unlikely, if not impossible, that this would change his mind about war (see below), but was worth a shot. We gave him a chance to accept our peaceful ways, if he so chose! I know the AI doesn't think in this way, but I do! :p

2. Silks, even for 2 or 3 turns, was enough to give WLTKD in many cities for a while. Not enough to count significantly, but I want our people to be happy! :)

3. The lump sum in gold emptied their treasury. Again, although this can be a good tactic before a war, this probably had no impact since, without oil, they couldn't upgrade units.

4. The tech given to them, Radio, is virtually worthless for war. At this point, in a solo game, I probably would have gifted them Flight and Motorized Transportation too, to see if this changed their course, especially given their lack of oil. With the scarcity of oil resources, perhaps the only deal that may have placated them would have been trading them our oil, something that was too much even for me! :lol: If we hadn't had such a small army (or if we had more than 1 source of oil ourselves) I may even have tried that! :D

So, there you go, it was a whim. There was little point in the trade, in the sense that we improved our 'game' position. Toku's reputation was already shot and he would have declared war, no matter what we did. What we did was act honourably, even if Japan wouldn't.