Prophet of Peace

With the successful completion and achievment of victory in The1, and combined with the fact that I'm still missing one victory type from my own hall of fame, I've decided to start a succession game with a totally different goal - a UN victory.

Even in the dense jungles of our Aztec tribe, the prophet came among us, preaching the path of peace that should be brought to all the nations of the Earth.

Civilization Aztecs
Size Standard
Opponents 7
Map 80%/Pangea/Wet/Warm/5bn
Barbarians Roaming
Level Monarch
Version Vanilla 1.29f, unmodded
Victory Conditions All enabled, but Diplomacy preferred
Extra Restrictions *May never declare war* Methods of getting our opponents to declare war on us, such as espionage, are allowed.
Exploits Avoid exploits listed by RBCiv. Dastardly actions okay but likely to hurt our cause.

All rounds are a maximum of 20 turns. 24 hours for got it and a further 48 hours to play.

Upload your zipped save games to the civfanatics server. If you need help using this feature you can PM me. Use the filename format the2-yyyybc.sav/zip.

Roster - max 5 players - game currently full
jmansell02
Zarth
Physicist
zenga
Theos

A sneak peek of the start...

Theos: Good luck having just started the Korea game I don't want to get too full but look forward to another game at some point. You may want to check out a game Mystery, Rowain and I played in September with a very similiar variant - NO attacking cities ever. It was interesting and we had a UN victory

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24681

Hotrod

I'd like a place. You probably don't know me so I'll give you a few details: I am mainly a Realms Beyond Civ player but I've been wanting to play a SG for a while. I'm an emperor player butMonarch isn't too easy. I live in the UK near London. Anything else you need to know just ask or e-mail me at john.mansell@icuc.co.uk.

I would like to know are we playing under whar I would normal rules (No RoP rapes or darstardly moves in general).

I should be able to easilly get everthing done within the deadlines. I don't mind what place I am in the order. I am willing to fit in with everyone else.

Just one request. If you do have some spare time: PLAY CIV 3!!!

JMansell02

Ah! I was looking for a new succession game, now that The1 has ended. You can count me in too.:)

If there is still a free place, I would like to join.

A few details about my person: I have never played a SG, but everyone has to start somewhere :) . I am not an unexperienced player (emperor level usually). Nevertheless, your game sounds like a challenge: starting without the industrious trait from a jungle location and trying to achieve a diplo victory with a militaristic civ *will* make this game interesting. Place me into the rooster wherever you see fit.

Same as JMansell02, I would like to know about exploits like RoP-Rape, RoP exploit, false treaties and the demand exploit (which I would like to avoid); however, I don't think these will be an option if we want to go for diplo victory. What about resource denial? (I would vote "no")

In your initial post you do not clearly state the number of turns we are intended to play. I would prefer to play 10 turns per player after two or three rounds as 20 turns will take a lot of time later in the game.

A last comment: I am German, so please excuse my imperfect use of the English language. :)

Wow, I would never have guessed you were German! Do most Germans use such good English? Also is your version of Civ 3 in German? I wonder if that will affect the rest of us.

Anyway, back to the game. The non-industrios civ will be a bit of a problem but it shouldn't matter too much. Milatristic is a bit of a waste since we probably won't get into many wars. ;) I usually find that UN is the easiest victory condition. The Religious trait should help the probable change from Republic to Democracy. Also we should have a large culture. Maybe we won't need to go to war if we get enough flips!

May I point out to Physicist: you will need to post your email!

__________
Just one request. If you do have some spare time: PLAY CIV 3!!!

JMansell02

Originally posted by jmansell02
QUOTE:
"Wow, I would never have guessed you were German!"

Thanks :) !

QUOTE:
"Do most Germans use such good English?"

At least most Germans that I know ...

QUOTE:
"Also is your version of Civ 3 in German? I wonder if that will affect the rest of us."

I am using the US version, patched to 1.29f. There should not appear any problems.

QUOTE:
"Anyway, back to the game. The non-industrios civ will be a bit of a problem but it shouldn't matter too much. Milatristic is a bit of a waste since we probably won't get into many wars. ;) I usually find that UN is the easiest victory condition. The Religious trait should help the probable change from Republic to Democracy. Also we should have a large culture. Maybe we won't need to go to war if we get enough flips!"

I agree with your analysis of the traits. However, I do not think diplomatic victory is the easiest victory condition; it usually seems to be quite risky in my eyes, or I win before the UN is built (makes this game quite interesting for me :) ). Furthermore, I do not hope for many flips. In my recent games (1.29f), I found it difficult to flip AI cities; probably the AI protects these cities with more troops than in previous patches... I thinks this was posted in some other threads / SGs, too.

QUOTE:
"May I point out to Physicist: you will need to post your email!"

No problem, I will pm my email address to all players if I am in; it is my email at work, so I would prefer not to post it. But could you tell me why I have to post my email (I am just curious)? This is not PBEM, so I thought the files would be transfered via the upload server (which I have not done before, actually).

EDIT: Sorry for the QUOTEs, I was not able to apply the format of the forum's quotes to my post. The post is now quite difficult to read :(

theos, if there's still a place left I'd like to join in. I've also not played in a true SG yet ( although I have played with one of your saves in QSC1) and this seems a good one for my play style - I'm not too hot at conquest anyway!

I pretty much agree with the other posts about the exploit situation, if we can't declare war it takes some of them off the table right away. I also agree with Physicist about switching to 10 turns ( maybe after 1 round of players).

To Physicist: I'm a Scot, so my English grammar is probably worse than yours!:lol:

Originally posted by zenga
[B
To Physicist: I'm a Scot, so my English grammar is probably worse than yours!:lol: [/B]

LOL! :rotfl:

Yeah, I suppose you don't need to release your e-mail physicist.

Thanks for the interest guys. Looks like we have a full roster. The following info will be updated in the first post for easy reference:

No using exploits (a la RBCiv) such as ROP rapes, false treaties, resource denial, etc. Dastardly actions are fine but we'll want to avoid hurting our reputation in order to get a diplomatic win.

Yes, I believe Diplomatic is the easiest victory condition, so I tried to make it a little more challenging. That's why the Aztecs, Monarch level (I'm a Regent player normally, though I do have a few Monarch wins now) and the 'no declaring war' limitation.

Small land and pangea should also make it trickier as wars should be more likely with the crowded space and proximity.

By maximum 20 turns, I really mean play as many as you have time for. Most prefer to only play 10 turns, which is fine. But assuming we're not in any wars and we don't have a large number of cities, I think you'll find some of us will be happy to play 20 turns. So, bottom line, play as many turns as you want, up to 20, each round.

To post your saves (and pics), please use the upload feature. If you need to, you can PM me for help using it.

Please zip your saves and use the following filename format:
the2-yyyybc.sav/zip where yyyy is the current year with bc or ad.

Anyway, the roster:
jmansell02
Zarth
Physicist
zenga
Theos

And the save for jmansell02: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-4000bc.zip

Good luck all :cool:

OK I've got it!

A question: How do you use the upload function?

Also, I think I will play 20 turns since it is the very beggining and not much is likely to happen. I should be finished soon. I will PM it to theos this time. Should be finished before the end of the day GMT.

4000BC- I move the worker onto the hill to get a better view of the surrounding area. I decide to move the settler onto the hill too because I don’t want to waste a valuable grassland by settling on it.

3950BC- Teno… T town founded, popping the hut. Village deserted. Worker starts to mine grasslands to get some production. T town starts building a Jag warrior to scout. Research on Pottery started at best possible speed.

3450BC- Jag warrior competed. Jag warrior sent to scout. Temple prebuild for granary started in T town. Pottery due in 2 turns. I notice a nice city location 3 cattle!

3350BC- Pottery finished. T town changes to granary. Mysticism started at 10% science. My Jag warrior notices a 4th cattle and a place I could settle to be on all 4 cattle, the river and

3300BC- I meet the babs. There is no trade available. They don’t want Warrior code and won’t give me Bronze Working.

3250BC- WOW!!! A 5th cattle in the radius of where I planned to put my 2nd city!

3100BC- Bab city founded snatching the incense. T town switched to settler production.

END

Not too good a start. T town just doesn't have enough production! I changed t town to a settler because we really need that 2nd city online to pump out settlers and workers. Well over to you Zarth as soon as I work out how to get it to him. HELP! I really don't understand all this PM etc. How do you get the zip file in???
:confused: :sad:

__________

JMansell02

You can use the File Upload System. The link is down on the right of every page.
After you upload the file you can find it here: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3

OK, thanks Zarth. The file has been uploaded. Its called: the2-3100bc.zip. Hope you enjoy playing (MAKE SURE YOU GET THAT 5 CATTLE LOCATION). Please remember: Diplomatic is one of the few victory conditions which you don't need many cities to win. It's better to have a few well developed cities than loads of undeveloped ones. I used to have a propensity to build far too many cities :(. Now I'm far more sensible. Good Luck all!

JMansell02

this is the link to the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-3100bc.zip

got it!

Theos, is this game full ?

In your first post you say "want 4 more" ? :confused:

Most of you guys' profile perfectly fit me : around Monarch :king: level, never played SG, not using "dastardly" tactics, no warmongers,etc...

Wow ! Would really like to play this game so if anyone falls out and you need a replacement please PM me !

Looks like I just missed this by a few hours DARN ! :(

I quite like trading with the AI and have achieved some early UN victories. :crazyeye:

Will follow your progress on this thread anyway.

Good luck to you all !

JMansell: Interesting decision to found Tenochtitlan on "Mount Teno".

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you do not waste resources by founding a city on a grassland. City on grassland gives 2 food & 1 shield, same as mined standard grassland. You only waste a shield by founding on a BONUS grassland.

On the long run (I mean after leaving despotism), you waste resources by placing a city on a hill, actually :) . City on hill gives 2 food & 1 shield, mined hill produces 1 food & 3 shield, so by founding Tenochtitlan we gained 1 food, but lost 2 shields. That's why I usually don't found any cites on mountains, if I can easily avoid it.

Nevertheless, in the given situation I do not think it was a weedy move to found on the hill as we gain an additional 2-food-tile right now, and we definitely need that one.

But now for something completely different: I hope this Bab warrior three tiles next to our (undefended) capitol is searching for mushrooms only ... ;)

What about posting a screenshot? It was not my turn, so I don't know if I should post one.

0. 3100BC
I switch reasearch to alphabet and increase science to 100%. It will take 23 turns.

3. 2950
Tenochtitilan finishes settler, start jag warrior.

5. 2850
we make contact with the chinese. I trade masonry for ceremonialburial+pottery+6gold

7 2750BC
teotihuacan founded, start settler

8. 2710
tenochtitlan finishes jag warrior, start settler

14.2470
switch tenochtitlan from settler to granary.

19.2270
we discover alphabet, start polytheism. science to 10 %
teotihuacan finishes settler, start settler
i trade alphabet with
china: mysticism+bronzeworking+26gold
(+6gold) with babylon: the wheel

20.2230
the babs found nineveh at the spot I was planning to build a city.

We need to build a lot more cities. I suggest we hurry the granary in our capital as soon as possible and keep on building settlers.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-2230bc.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-2230bc.zip

Got it. Will play today.

2230BC (0)

To make myself familiar with the game, I meet all the advisors and visit our huge amount of cities ;) . Our military is weak (2 Jags only, both exploring). Guys, we are running a true Farmers Gambit here, with the only difference that you usually want to have a bonus food tile in your capitols city radius for that. I will try to build some Jags soon, for MP & defence.

We are moderately advanced, researching Poly at 10% sci, due in 39 turns. The AIs will discover Poly before we do, so I consider switching to Alphabet (no, we might want to have that one before) or Math (the AI often discover Math late, so we might be able to trade it around). However, as Poly is more expensive than Math, I decide to continue our research on Polytheism.

Teno needs a Granary urgently. With some MM, I could poprush the Granary in 4 turns, would drop to size 2 with one unhappy citizen, however. 10 turns to grow with 3 spt, then. Or we could build it, due in 8 turns, size 3 and 5 spt, but growth in 20 turns as only 2 tiles are improved (unless the growth in the building turn already activates the Granary, then 10 turns to grow). That in mind, I decide to go the poprush way. I hope it is not a :smoke: move, as Teno will have to builds some Jags before a settler, then. But, we can need those, too. Thus: MM Teno to growth in 4 turns, Granary in 11 turns.

So, most important question, what to do with our (undefended) setter. Possible locations:
* SW of Ur in order to grab Incense & Horse (but will be next to Babylon and surrounded by Bab cities)
* NE of Teo (near the Horse)
* SE or Teo, N of Babylon: High potential, but will be quite corrupt in despotism
* Some jungle locations (spices), but we need cities with some production.

I consider this problem a long time and decide to go the conservative way: NE of Teo; we will have Horses and a quite productive city, and we need both.

Diplo: Mao has Iron Working, but is not willing to trade.

(Interturn) Oh no. A Bab warrior appears two tiles from Teo & our settler.

2190BC (1)

No way to build a Jag out of Teo. A possible third shield is "corrupted away", so 3 turns to Jag. We should connect Teno&Teo in order to lower corrution. I could change Teno from Granary to Jag, but we would loose 22 shields. I decide to gamble and continue building Granary. If the Babs decide to attack, this game will become *extremely* interesting. Diplo: Hammi is annoyed.

(I) Bab warrior moves to Mountain S of Teo, they are on our territory.

2150BC (2)

I do NOT ask Hammi to leave or declare war...
(I) Whoo, Bab warrior leaves our territory !

2110BC (3)

zzz
(I) A Bab and a Chinese warrior move within two tiles from Tenochtitlan. However, I can bring one of our exploring scouts there. Teno. grows. Hammi builds Ashur near the horses SW of Ur. We would not have reached that spot in time.

2070BC (4)

We rush the granary in Teno; lux to 10%

2030BC (5)

Order Jag in Teno; with some MM, we will get it in 3 turns w/o wasting shields
One Jag returns home; forify in Teno, lux to 0%

(I) Babs start The Oracle in Babylon

1990BC (6)

We found Tlate... whatever, order Jag. After long evaluation I decide to move it in a position where it can work thebonus game immediately and the fish after border expansion. I have to admit that it sits on a bonus grassland (waste!). I will propose a dotmap to explain my reasons.

Hami is willing to trade Iron W. for 9gpt & 113g (). I decline; would leave us broke. Mao is broke, btw.

1950BC (7)

MM Teno to build Jag next turn

1910BC (8)

Teo did grow, lux 20%

(I) Babs found Ellipi at the killer spot with the 2 cows and 2 games N of Babylon

1870BC (9)

zzz

1830 (10)

lux 0% as Jag arrives in Teo.

Suggestion to the next player:

* IMPORTANT: Tenochtitlan is working a forest tile this turn in order to complete the Jag. Make sure to MM that to the mined grassland next turn, otherwise Tenos growth is to slow. The Jag is supposed to go to Teo as Teo's Jag is supposed to protect the settler. (Just an idea). Teno will go into disorder if you remove MP or if it grows to size 3.
* Settler in Teo next turn. :)
* Teno needs to grow to make the granary "start working".
* I would suppose to build a second worker soon, perhaps in Tlat which completes it's Jag this turn. We especially need to improve the grasslands around our capitol to allow it to grow to decent size. Generally, we will need many workers as our next cities will be jungle cities...
* You might consider sending one Jag through Bab land in order to explore and find other nations. I could not do that as too many enemy warrior were "visiting" our unprotected cities.
*Teo will need a temple in the near future in order to grab the incence before Ur does.

Good luck to you, zenga! :)

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/The2-1830bc.zip

EDIT: Some typos and misleading formulations.

Looking at the screenshot, a dotmap doesn't seem to make sense. Only lousy city locations ... :( Will be a nice piece of work to win that one. :)

Btw, feel free to criticize (sp?) my moves!

Here's our struggling civ:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/The2-1830bc.jpg

Oooops, good luck on that one guys !
Real horrible starting position I call this.

How about getting rid of the Babs ASAP to get some breathing room ? They will declare war on you very soon anyway...
Of course without Iron, it's gonna be a hard one though.

Originally posted by Skyfish
How about getting rid of the Babs ASAP to get some breathing room ? They will declare war on you very soon anyway...
Of course without Iron, it's gonna be a hard one though.

"Getting rid of the Babs asap"? That doesn't sound very peaceful, does it? ;)

Yea, the danger of a war with Babylon is present. That's one reason why I started building some military.

We do not yet know whether we have Iron or not; there are some mountains/hills within reach of our cities. Maybe I should have bought IW from the Babs, but it was quite expensive. Mao didn't have it and was *completely* broke all the time. We would have paid full 2nd civ prices, and I hate to be bankrupt. Also, I founded Tlat... before buying IW was possible (which was in the same turn, but I usually check diplomathy in teh end if the turn :smoke: ). We will see what zenga decides on that point.

Even without iron a Jag rush can be devasting... :rocket:

Btw, it is interesting to see that although we are short of everything (cities, workers, military) compared to the Babs, we are doing quite good in comparison to the Chinese. They are behind us in the power graph and "compared to them we have an average military".

There *is* someone who does worse than we do. :D

"Getting rid of the Babs asap"? That doesn't sound very peaceful, does it?

I have carefully reread the opening of the game by Theos and he does not really mention a "peaceful game", just a win by UN which of course implies a no-warmonger game...but that should not prevent you from some early house cleaning or am I wrong ?

What I have found out in my different UN victories is that early wars have almost no influence on the possibility of winning Diplo.
ESPECIALLY in the BCs before any civs are actively in contact with each other.

For example in GOTM13 I achieved a Diplo victory even though I killed every single civ on the starting continent and close island(Russia, Persia, Egypt, Rome, China and Zulu). I actually was in "Almost Always War" until 1500AD and then started trading like mad with every other civ and got a unanimous victory.
Just to say don't be scared to get some breathing room it is much needed in your game seeing that map.

A Jag rush is a good idea even though you have few cities and your GA will be triggered in Despotism with just 3 or 4 cities.

Also these are Babs : those Bowmen are real good units (defense + attack).

I don't want to give any advice here : you guys are in charge !
I hope you don't mind if I comment from the sidelines. If so please tell me to put a sock on it.
;)

Got it!

I'm going to have a good look before I start playing this one - as soon as I saw the first screenshot I felt a feeling of dread when I saw all of that jungle.:eek:

One thing for sure is we need workers, and lots of them.

I'm going to have a look at the save now and will post again before playing so if anyone wants to chip in with ideas feel free. One thing that struck me from Physicist's post is that if Teno will riot at size 3 is to pop out a quick worker from there while the whipping is still felt ( for another 14 turns).

Another possibility for dealing with the jungle is to have a tight build for cities there at the moment, using the settlers as jungle clearers. Later on a couple of these could be abandoned.

In a regular game I think the first thing most of us would look to do is take out the Babs and settle in their good lands. With defensive warring only we may have to wait a little longer than usual. In any case, I think a leaning toward military building is advisable so we are in a position to take advantage when the Bowmen come-a-calling. This will also include building some of our cheap barracks soon.

More later.

zenga


@skyfish: there is no declaring war or use of exploits in war, but you are right about this not having to be a peaceful game. With the Babs this close it is inevitable (hopefully!) that they will start something. When they do we will show them the benefits of our peaceable ways, backed by our mighty warriors!;)

The rules simply say *no declaring war*. If we can incite the Babylonians to declare war on us, then they are fair game.

Yes, I admit I cheated a bit (and thus why I pushed myself to the end of the roster). I made sure to have a look around our starting location after the startup to make sure that we had a plentiful 'jungle' location (filled with hidden temples to our Aztec prophet of peace).

Remember that all those jungly bits are all grassland (some bonus grassland) and so will be very productive once cleared. Don't be afraid to settle there - and let's start getting some workers to clear out the jungle.

Although the Babylonians have nice lands, we should get the lion's share of the land, especially with our super-strong city of Teotihucan.

I look forward to my turn. Good luck Zenga.

@skyfish: the "peaceful" comment was meant as a joke, playing at the thread's title. That's why I added a ;) smiley. Early war is not only possible but an important option.

@zenga: Concerning Teno feeling the whip: I am still not sure whether whipping was :smoke: or not. Usually I try to avoid whipping my core cities. In this game, I wanted the granary asap, and enemy warriors were wandering around, so I wanted to start building Jags soon. Maybe I should have waited for a normal completion of the granary (and built a worker afterwards to trigger the granary, see below). Probably :smoke: , sorry for that.

Question to the team concerning the granary: When you look at the file, you will see that the granary does not work yet; as far as I know, Teno has to grow once in order to "start" it. I do not know what will happen if we build a worker in the turn we are growing. Does anyone know? Do we have to wait for Teno's growth? Or should we build a worker now to trigger the granary, dropping our capitol to size 1 :( (not really an option in my eyes)?

Nevertheless, an interesting game. :)

OK, i just played my turns (12 to take us to 1500BC) and here's the report:

1830BC(0)

Everthing seems to be OK, leave it as I find it and hit Enter.

1790BC(1)

Teno builds jag and starts a spear for city defence. Leave forest tile worked for now to get him quicker.
Teo builds settler, starts jag. MM for shields to get him in 3, will switch back to irr cow next turn.
Tlat builds jag, start barracks for now - may change. Jag sent towards Teo.
Worker starts last section of road to Teo. Send jag in Teo to scout in S and hopefully get a peek at the other side of the Babs lands. Jag built in Teno will escort the settler who I've decided will settle on the spice NE of Teno. Jag in N will try and get a look at some more of the land around China.
Babyon now has Horseback Riding too. Can get it for 133g and 3gpt. Considering his army is larger than ours at present this may a good deal. It gives us horsemen if a temple is built in Tlat and keeps him off our backs for 20 turns allowing time for more military build up. I take the deal, and Hammur goes from annoyed to just cautious.

1750BC(2)

MM Teo back to irr cow. Jag in N heads into Chinese lands.

1725BC(3)

Get a warning from Mao about intruding into his lands but after checking with the military advisor (we are strong compared to him, plus there is all that jungle between us) decide to press on and climb a hill near Beijing. I'll say one thing: if we thought our position was bad, his is worse! It must have been all jungle around him, just as well his workers are super fast! Even so, the N coast is sighted, right next to Beijing (his only city) leaving only a southern expansion into the jungle possible before boats.
I wonder if our southern scout will find much more land there? I've got a sneaking suspicion that it may be only our 3 civs on this continent.
In diplomacy I would have traded HR to Mao but he has no gold to go along with his no horses!:lol: Hammur is back to being annoyed already.:(

1700BC(4)

Teo build jag and starts a temple in the hope of snagging the incense near there before the Babs. Realistically, this will be our first lux online since the spices will take a while. The temple will be whipped asap (3 turns when it reaches size 3 again). I consider whipping a temple in Tlat also (for the horses). Will give it a couple of turns to see how things develop, it could be better to just settle another city near the horses fairly soon.
Worker heads back towards Teno for some more mining.
Mao backs down so I decide to fully explore his expansive lands (:rolleyes: ) - will be done in 2 turns!

1675BC(5)

Mao finally plucks up the courage to ask to leave again and, being a peaceful nation, we comply. The scout never quite made it to the N coast in the hope of spying more lands across the sea.
Hammur gets shirty and demands 20g. We give in to his demand as his military is still stronger than ours - his time will come.
The southern scout runs into a Bab warrior before he can cross their lands and so retreats into unclaimed land (taking no chances). Will try again next turn.

1650BC(6)

The borders of Ur expand inter turn and take the incense.:mad: It also leaves our southern scout in Babylonian territory.:mad: :mad: Luckily he can cross their border to the south after the warrior moves and does so.
Teno builds a spear defender and starts a worker. MM for worker in 3, switch for growth next turn - 2 garrison will allow it to avoid disorder now.
Texacoco founded on spice near coast, start spear - may change. A top priority could be to squeeze another city in just S of Teo (near the game) to stop any more Bab culture pressure. It would also avoid having quite a lot of wasted tiles in the area.

1625BC(7)

Scout in S reaches coast, next turn he will see better but it does look like we are on this rock until Map Making. How he gets back through Hammur's land is another matter.
Teno MM for growth next turn, worker in 2.
Teo grows to size 3 and temple is whipped. MM for growth and work both irrigated cows.

1600BC(8)

Teo temple complete, start settler. MM to mined cow for same growth and more shields.
S scout continues on along coast.

1575BC(9)

Teno builds worker and starts a jag to allow it's population to increase for now. The worker heads into the jungle for clearing to Texacoco. More workers are urgently needed for Tlat.
Scout in S reaches the end of the world and looks over the edge.
:crazyeye:

1550BC(10)

Tlat barracks are complete and a vetern jag is ordered up. MM for completion in 4 (2 turns on forest, 2 on grassland).
MM Teno for growth, jag still in 2.

1525BC(11)

Teo grows to size 3 again and it will grow again in 3 turns, settler due in 5.
Worker 1 finishes mine and starts to road.


1500BC(12)

Teno build jag and starts another. Jag heads for Teo and MP duty there.
Teo borders expand but don't take incense, another city is definitely needed down there.
China finally build a second city, at the spices N of Texacoco.
MM Tlat back to grass for growth.


State of the Empire for the next leader:

Military - several new warriors and a barracks in Tlat. We're still strong compared with China and weak up against the Babs. There is a Bab warrior just NW of Teno. Our southern scout is now in Hammur's lands after their capital expanded again. It will take him 3 turns to leave and I've left him unmoved for this turn in case you think it better to disband him. We are not ready for war yet but he may get through as Hammur is only cautious at the moment.

Diplomacy - China now has Iron Working. They will trade for HR + 30g, a pretty good deal considering they have no horses. I've left the deal on the table for you to decide.

Treasury - 66g, +8gpt.

Research - Polytheism in 17 at 10% science.


To all:


It may be best to agree on a dot map for any future cities soon. On reflection, the spice jungle was perhaps not the best site I could have chosen (possible weed). I reckon a couple of more cities are needed near Teo, one S near the game and perhaps one on the plains to the SW - this may allow us to cut off Nineveh from the rest of the Babylonian cities if we are quick.

I'll post a map with possible city sites in another post for comments.

Here's the save

the2 1500bc save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1500BC.zip)

Good luck theos!

Here's the latest map with some comments on possible city sites.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1500bc-dotmapcrop.jpg

White dot (smudge!) - will include horse within our cultural boundaries without needing a temple first.

Yellow dot - sited near game, decent growth and use of unused tiles. Also squeezes the Babs in a little.

Blue dot - decent growth and shields, cuts off the corridoor between Ur and Nineveh.

Orange dot - if settled quickly in conjunction with blue dot will cut off Nineveh from the rest of the Babs cities. Would probably need a quick temple.

Purple dot - although surrounded by jungle, this site snags fish straight away. Could be a good city for producing workers.


I've not included any other sites further N for the moment as I feel we need at least 1 or 2 more cities that will grow quickly. It was for this reason I never whipped a temple in Tlat to get the horses, it's growing slowly as it is.
If I had to choose just one of these, I'd probably go for blue dot first and check the situation again then. Of course, if (when) theos takes the deal for IW that could also change things.

@Physicist: granary was definitely a good move IMO.

@theos: whip effects in Teno wear off in 2 turns and in Teo in 15.


zenga

P.S. I don't think we'll have to worry about a source of rubber!:lol:

Home alone with Hami and Mao! Oh, well ... :(

Some ideas/suggestions for discussion:

Concerning city placement/dotmap:

*We might want to move white dot 1 tile NW; It will still bring horse and cow into our territory (or does anyone think I am wrong on that one?), but will be closer to our capitol, thus less corruption. This city will have some non-jungle tiles, even one cow, so it will be quite productive. Highest priority IMHO. No temple needed in Tlat, I agree.
EDIT: By moving white dot 1 NW, we would also grab a coast tile that would be wasted otherwise.

*We should be extremely careful with settling yellow, blue & orange dot. The AI will not settle there (not enough space for a decent city in AI's eyes). If WE settle there, we will push back his cultural burders, and Hammi will react on that agressive settling strategy with a sneak attack for sure. So we should not settle there before our preparations for war are finished. I would suppose to settle white and purple dot first, perhaps before purple dot even a city SE of the inland lake near Shanghai, grapping the spice (you can never have too many of those). If we settle there, the AI *might* ignore purple dot due to the proximity to "Great Spicelake" and our might capitol ;) Tenochtitlan.

Generally, I guess that Hammi will attack us soon in any case. He ran out of space for peaceful expansion, so he will turn to aggressive expansion.

Buying IW in order to know about iron resources sounds like a good idea; it will not get cheaper in the near future. Keep in mind, even with Iron online, we will be able to build Jags (and eventually upgrade them to some mighty, yet unknown kind of warrior) if we have not had our Golden Age yet.

I would suppose to make Teno and Tlat our military training camps (so: 'rax in Teno), Teo (obviously) out settler factory; white dot maybe an addtional military camps. We need more (vet) troups ASAP. As soon as all land is settled, Teno can produce workers to clear the jungle. We should use our current workers to improve the land around Teno, Teo and Tlat, as they are our only productive cities for a certain time. Lets build settlers and troups now and neglect our infrastructure (no temples). We must prepare for bringing Aztec Peace to Babylon! :D

For long term strategy, we should bring the Peace of the Prophet to our whole continent, not only the Aztec colonies called Babylon :) . I am sure Mao will be stupid enough to attack as one time in the future. Furthermore, as you have probably realized, our scouts have discovered a foreign coast west of Azteca. We do not know whether it is fertile land or not, but it does not seem to be colonized. If we ever discover a possibility to cross the mighty sea, we might want to send a settler there.

This game will be a tough ride (probably equivalent to a more standard Emperor game, or even more...), but I am sure that we can hold out against a "five cities AI" even with three cities only. Let's turn the tide in favor of Aztec Peace!

The white dot site will definitely take the horses, but I agree a quick check with the settler, making sure horses fall in our borders, and the site 1 square NW is better.:goodjob:

You are also right about the blue, yellow and orange spots. They would be seen by the AI as agressive settling. The question is, how long before the Babs start getting nasty? On the power histograph chart we have clawed back a bit compared to the Babs and with a few more quick military units could easily see a shift in army strengths. This could be assessed in between settling near white dot and the next settler built. Remember, the city of Babylon is building the Oracle, so we know at least 1 city (their largest) that isn't producing Bowmen.

I would also agree about a 'rax in Teno and producing military from there with workers in between when at size 4.

Originally posted by zenga
You are also right about the blue, yellow and orange spots. They would be seen by the AI as agressive settling. The question is, how long before the Babs start getting nasty? On the power histograph chart we have clawed back a bit compared to the Babs and with a few more quick military units could easily see a shift in army strengths. This could be assessed in between settling near white dot and the next settler built.

I have a bad feeling about Hammi. He has no space to settle. (Remember, how fast he went from cautious to annoyed after the horse trade. EDIT: This is nonsense. zenga wrote he is still cautious. What am I smoking? :) ) He want's to dominate this little jungle world, and we are definitely in his way. Even if he does not declare war during theos' turns, he will start to send settler/spear pairs through our land in order to claim some of our jungle. That's another reason to crank out some more Jags. They are ideal units to bock AI setters.

Or do you think I am too pessimistic concerning the Babs?

Remember, the city of Babylon is building the Oracle, so we know at least 1 city (their largest) that isn't producing Bowmen.

Yep, great that he wastes his production on that one.

EDIT:
Looking at the screenshot again I realize that Teo is under remarkable cultural pressue (two of it's city tiles are Bab territory). We should consider increasing the MP in there; Teo should not flip under any circumstances. I personally would even prefer moving one of Teno's defenders to Teo, eventually increasing the lux rate to 10% to keep Teno out of disorder when it grows. I do not use the formula for flip chances (as there are parameters in it that you usually do not know exactly), but I would feel better with 2 or even 3 defenders in Teo. Btw, Teo is our most exposed city in case of a Bab attack. It should not look like an easy pick!

Dont worry that much about culture flips there. Without the whole gigantic formula, the chance for Teotihuacan to flip is [(babs culture/your culture) minus 1] in the current situation, so probably about 0.10%.
And as for not worrying about rubber, dont worry about coal either. Coal appears in hills, mountains and jungle.

Originally posted by Erik Mesoy
Dont worry that much about culture flips there. Without the whole gigantic formula, the chance for Teotihuacan to flip is [(babs culture/your culture) minus 1] in the current situation, so probably about 0.10%.

Now I got curious (the scientist in me awakes!)

From the FAQ thread:


P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D

where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreignors, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals

Now reorganizing this gives the required garrison as:
G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)


F=0, T=2
Cc=1 (probably? what exactly is local culture accumulated culture in that city?)
H=1, Cte/Cty = 1 (approx)
I asume D=1 as distance to both capitols is similar.

Then we get as needed Garrison G = 2.

(However, I do not understand the step from the "P=..." formula to the "G=..." formula, where P and D disappear. EDIT: Sometimes I am really too stupid. Of course P=0 is asumed. Blame on me :spank: )

Furthermore, D=1 is probably wrong, as in the "P=..." formula we get
P = 1 (!) for G=1
P = 0 for G=2

Especially 100% flip chance with 1 MP seems to be wrong. But I am not sure if flip chance is 0.1 % only, as you stated, Erik. Or am I doing something wrong here?

Nevertheless, a second garrison would not hurt, if only to protect the city in case of an Bab attack. :)

The faq is either misleading or being misread.

D should be split into two factors, but instead some folks insist on it being some nebulous number from 500-8000.

'D' in the formula = 2000 * Distance ratio
where the distance ratio is capped to be between 4:1 to 1:4
For 1:1 ratio, it looks like the flip chance is about 0.05% for a garrison of 1, tiny.

I didn't check the rest of your math, just wanted to point out what 'D' is.

Good luck!
Charis

@Physicist:

Although Babylon is normally strong in culture (they certainly will be if they build the Oracle) I don't think there is any risk of a flip in the near future for 2 reasons.

Number 1 - a temple was whipped in Teo during my turns. This was primarily done in the hope of getting the incense but there were other reasons, including happiness issues (for it growing to size 4 or 5 easily - better for producing settlers) and generally increasing our culture in the areas near Babylonian lands.

Number 2 - the second MP for the city is only 1 square away and will arrive next turn!;)

Teo does need a bigger garrison since it's frontline city , preferably some spears or swords, but I think we can soon start cranking military from Teno (maybe after the 'rax) and Tlat.

@Charis: Thanks for clearing that. I didn't find a definition of "D" in the FAQ, but I have to admit that I did not look closely and may have overlooked it. The result I obtained for 1 MP made clear that something was wrong with my assumption. :)

@zenga: Thanks for "info number 2" especially. I was at work and could not check the save file; on the screenshot I overlooked that detail. Otherwise I would not have repeated that point permanently :) .
'So, acknowledging Lord Zenga's wise preparations, Physicist steps back behind the High Council and answers, together with the advisors: "I concur, your excellency!"' ;)

Hmmm, quite a bit of discussion about something I personally don't ever worry about much. Culture flips only ever seem to happen to me from city conquests. Rather safe than sorry, I suppose - a culture flip is not a pretext for war, after all.

Anyway, I've now got the save - was hoping to play my turn today but it'll have to wait for tomorrow. Its looking pretty interesting right now, and I can't guarantee I'll get it right.

The Great Expansion under the rule of High Priest Theos I

(0) 1500 BC
We need more cities and more workers ASAP. So I change some build orders: Tlatelolco, our eastern city, swaps to worker; and Tenochtitlan, our capital, swaps to settler. I plan to simple pay appeasement to Babylon rather than concentrate on defences. A bit of a risk, I'm sure.

(1) 1475 BC
Trade with China: We give Horseback Riding+30g for Iron Working. There are 3 iron on this island of ours. Ur (Babylon) has one; Technotitlan, our capital, has another; and one near the Chinese is yet unclaimed.

(3) 1425 BC
Teotihucan (settler factory) trains a settler that heads off for the last free iron and spices.

(6) 1350 BC
The Chinese have beaten us to the last iron and spices. Our settler is redirected to a risky Babylonian settlement.

(7) 1325 BC
Tenochtitlan (capital) trains a settler and starts a Barracks.

(8) 1300 BC
Our new settler also moves in the direction of the Babylonians for an aggressive settlement. We complete the road to connect the iron.

(10) 1250 BC
Teotihucan trains a settler that heads off for an agressive settlement near China.

(12) 1200 BC
Found Tlaxcala near the horses past Babylonian territory. It starts a temple to resist cultural pressure.

(13) 1175 BC
Found Calixlahuaca by the game adjacent to Babylonian territory. It also begins constructing a temple.

(16) 1100 BC
Discover Polytheism (from 10% sci).

(17) 1075 BC
Trade with Babylon: Polytheism for Writing+85g. Start researching Map Making as we need to get off this island quickly. Taxes to 2.8.0 for tech in 18 at +1gpt. Found Xochicalco adjacent to spices that are in Chinese territory. This brings them into our territory, but will take time to hook up with all the jungle around us. The new city starts a temple to resist cultural pressure. Barracks at Tenochtitlan completed and starts building our armies of swordsmen. Teotihucan trains yet another settler. Babylon completes the Oracle.

(18) 1050 BC
Our new settler heads for our eastern horses. Our workers are working hard at clearing jungle in an attempt to connect up the spices reasonably soon.

(20) 1000 BC
Found Tlacopan by the eastern horses.

We now have 8 cities (China has 4, Babylon has 6). We have 9 jaguar warriors (upgradable to swordsmen if desired), 2 spearmen and 5 workers. Our military is still weak compared to Babylon but it's strong compared to China. We need more workers and I think we can fit in 2-3 more cities fairly comfortably, always with the notion that we might have to abandon these cities later, but for now being able to produce lots more workers and military units will be essential. What worries me the most is that this map is a Pangea. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the other 5 civilizations are all on one large continent elsewhere. We need to find them soon else I'm sure we'll be left behind in the tech race.

Prophet's Isle...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1000bc_Prophet::s_Isle.jpg

Next up is jmansell02, with Zarth on deck. Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-1000bc.zip

OK, got it. Let me see what I can do in a few turn for this empire that thinks there are temples in the jungle. They're ma... Oh wait a minute. I see them. OK empire's not to bad. It could be better.

jmansell02

I can't get the thing to work. When I open the .sav it claims that it isn't a valid save. Could theos: (a) try and download and play it himself and (b) put another one up please?;)

jmansell02

JMansell: I don't think the file is corrupt. I have downloaded the .zip, extracted it and opened it without any problems. Of course, I did not try to play.

Maybe there is a problem with the extraction? What software (version!) do you use for extraction (I am using WinZip 8.1)?

EDIT: Check your e-mail!

Physicist: Thanks but its still not working. :(

My version of WinZip (8.0) has worked fine in the past. It must be my PC. I will try using one of my other ones. :D I shoud have the game done pretty soon, if not tommorrow then the following day. Do not worry, Be HAPPY :D :D :D.

P.S.: In case anyone is interested jmansell02 is my first initial and sirname + the year. Since this will be out of date by 2003 I have been trying to come up with a new and more imaginative name! i would appreciate any suggestions (so long as they are not something like "Iams Tupid".)

jmansell02

How about :

F1Rider :D

:D :D :D :D

I checked and the download was fine and extraction okay. As a piece of advice for first time SGers, always download your own zip to make sure it uploaded correctly and then test to see if it extracts properly. 10 seconds effort that can help to stop a game from stalling.

I don't want this game to be bogged down over a save game issue. jmansell02, if you're still having trouble with this save game, we should probably pass it on to Zarth and shuffle you in the roster. Please let as know as soon as you can.

It's OK I've got it working now. I forgot to install patch 1.29f on this PC. I should have the game finished and sent to Zarth by about 4pm GMT. Sorry about that!

P.S. F1rider?!?

jmansell02

OK done. The file is at: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-550BC.zip .

Here is my report on the empire:

1000BC (0) – Apparently our people want to build the forbidden palace, maybe we should!

925BC (3) – The babs start building the colossus.

900BC (4) – Swordsman completed in capital. I start on a temple to increase cultural pressure on babs. Teotihucan completes settler. I start on a granary as: (a) I want Teotihucan to grow quite large so it can spit out workers by the thousands and (b) so it can use all of the cattle and the forest. Also I think we need a larger culture as your amount of culture affects negotiations. I decide to send the settler to the city location NW of the capital because it gets the fish in its 9-tile radius and applies cultural pressure to the Chinese’s only resource. I send the swordsman to calix… to resist cultural pressure.

850BC (6) – Taleteloco finishes a swordsman and starts a temple (pre-build for a galley. The babs offer MM for 170gp but since were getting it in 6 turns I decline. The babs then seem to like me refusing things because they establish an embassy in our capital.

825BC (7) - I whip a temple in Talaxcala because I am worried about flips. I decide to go against my previous plan and change Teotihucan to a settler that will be finished on the turn we get MM.

750BC (10) - Atzcapotzalco founded. Starts a temple.

730BC (11) - A Chinese archer starts heading towards Xochicalco from the spices NE of Shanghai I assume the worst because I can’t see anywhere else they could be heading so I rush a Jag warrior in X town. MM is discovered and research on Literature is started. I want to get libraries on the go ASAP.

710BC (12) - The capital completes a temple. It starts a worker to be completed in 2 turns. Also the Chinese archer has fortified but another warrior has moved into sight. Is this a prelude to an attack? Galley to be finished in Taletoloco next turn.

690BC (13) – We now have an average military in comparison with the Babs.

670BC (14) – I agree a RoP with the Babs in order to get a galley through their territory they give us their WM and 28gp as well. I decided to play safe and get the RoP because if we do get into a war with Chinese (both warrior and archer have moved into striking distance of X town) we may want the Babs on our side. Hammurabi is now Polite.

650BC (15) – A Bab galley passesTlaxcala.

610BC (17) – The Bab galley returns having deposited cargo (probably a settler) on the western Isle. A road is finished to Texcoco.

590BC (18) – The Babs beat us to literature by 4 turns. They start the Great Library.

570BC (19) – I spot a southern isle and re-direct my galley.

550BC (20) – Settler deposited on southern isle.

We really need to build our culture. The babs are racing into the lead. Literature is due in 2 turns. Good luck Zarth

925BC (3) The babs start building the colossus.

Hami blocks another city with wonder building :rolleyes:? That's too good to be true! Gentlemen, if he ever declares war on us, he will be Jag-food :D

@JMansell02: :goodjob: on the RoP, it will lower the risk of a too early Babylonian attack on us.

EDIT: An idea (for discussion): We might want to turn off research after Literature. We are currently researching at 1st/2nd prices ('Jungle-Mao' is not really pushing tech speed :rolleyes: ) which is very expensive. Soon our galleys will reach the continent where (probably) all the other civs are located (as Theos suggested in his report). I would guess that we will be way behind in tech compared to them. However, having meet the other civs, we will be able to catch up by buying at 7th/8th civ prices, which is much cheaper. So I would suggest to save some money now and buy cheap in the future (at least that's what I usually do)! What is your opinion?

Very good suggestion.

Got it!

I don't know if we can build the great library, but if we build that wonder we wouldn't have to research at all.

Zarth, as far as I understand it, the Great Library is extremely helpful but not essential for this strategy. The most important thing is to gain contact with the 4 civs on the other continent which will push down tech prices, making them affordable through trading with our saved up gold. The other benefit is when it comes to upgrading and rushing in Republic, you have a nice wad of gold.

This obviously depends on gaining contacts which we will hopefully make soon. The only problem I could see arising is if the other landmass is not reachable by a standard 3-move galley.

This map is Standard/Pangea:lol: /80% water. It is possible we may need the GLH! In any case, we should know fairly quickly if we get 2 or 3 galleys out exploring.

Edit: checked map size.

Originally posted by zenga
Zarth, as far as I understand it, the Great Library is extremely helpful but not essential for this strategy. The most important thing is to gain contact with the 4 civs on the other continent which will push down tech prices, making them affordable through trading with our saved up gold. The other benefit is when it comes to upgrading and rushing in Republic, you have a nice wad of gold.

I second. Although the Great Library is one of my favorite wonders, I would not go for it here for two reasons.

*Due to our, well, interesting starting location we still seem to lack some basic stuff (I did not check the save, but I guess we could need some more military&workers :) , also markets are around the corner)

*Without TGL we will rely on trading to get techs. This will improve the relations to the other civ on the long term, and that's exactly what we need in order to achieve a diplo victory. With that in mind, I would tend to completely turn off research and rely on trading techs at last civ prices until we reach the industrial age. That would save us a lot of money & shields (no libs and unis, building cheap cathedrals for culture) in the (important) first half of the game. Opinions?

0 550BC
I fire the entertainer in Tlacopan and I hurry the temple in Atzcapotzalco.

1. 530BC
Tlatelolco finishes galley, start galley

2. 510BC
we discover literature, start code of laws. science to 0%
I hurry the temple in Xochicalco, this city is under extreme cultural pressure.

3. 490BC
I trade with the babs, they give worldmap, we give them territory map + 15gold.
I trade with china, they giveus worldmap, we give them territory map
The babs have a city on the SW island.

5. 450BC
Tzintzuntzen founded on the south island. Temple hurried in Texcoco.

7. 410BC
The Japanese finish The Pyramids.

8. 390BC
The Chinese and the Babylonians are building The GL.
Malinalco founded, start harbor.
Tula founded, start spear

10. 350BC
Babylon finishes The Great Library!

14 270BC
I renegotiate our ROP with the Babs. They give ROP+incense. We give ROP+spices+19gold. This means we will be giving our only spices source away, but we will connect another source next turn.

15 250BC
Tamuin founded, start worker.

18 .190BC
The Chinese have an archer in our territory nearAtzcapotzalco. I establish an embassy and sign a ROP agreement with them. I hope this prevents them from attacking us.

19 170BC
The Chinese declare war on us!!!! They kill the jag warriors in Atzcapotzalco and capture the city. I switch a few cities to swordsmen..

20 150BC
I hurry swordsmen in Tenochtitlan and Xochicalco.

I was quite unprepared for the war with the Chinese. I hope the next player is able to keep the chinese from capturing more of our cities. After that we should be able to destroy them.
Also remember that the Babs and the Chinese are not aware of the existence of the island to the South and the one NE. Do not trade world maps with them!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-150bc.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-150bc.zip

I wouldn't woory too much about this war affecting our relations with the rest of the world. If we sign the Babs into an alliance it will stregthen our relationship and also stop the Chinese getting them on their side. I don't think we could cope with a war on two fronts. Look what happened to Nazi Germany when they declared war on Russia. (And before anyone says anything: I know they would have succeed had it not been for the winter.) Anyway back to Civ 3. The Babs might start producing more bowmen but they still have 2 cities tied up in wonder construction. Also we should be able to wipe out the Chinese before the Bab bowmen get there to start a golden age if we time it right. Tens of Bab bowmen wondering through our territory isn't a good thing but I'd much rather have that than fighting both the Chinese and Babs. What do the rest of you think?

Oops. They only have one city tie up with a wonder. The GL was finished. How did he finish it so quickly?

jmansell02

Physicist up now, Zenga on deck.

Interesting situation we've got now. Those Chinese must be punished for their warmongering ways. And we can get a bit of breathing space. Surely with our superior setup we should easily deal with the Chinese. Good luck Physicist.

On the subject of research - I personally think that if the opportunity arises, we will want to nab the Library, but we can't count on it. I fear that with our poor starting lands, we may be just too far behind the other 5 to trade to catch up. Well, maybe someone with better trading skills than I could...

Got it. Real life issues keep me quite busy this week, but I will play either tomorrow (friday) night or early saturday.

I thought the Chiese might invade but I thought they would attack Xochicalo. Phychist: I hope you read my post on the advantages of signing a alliance with the babs. If we don't I am worried things will go horribly pear-shaped and the babs will declare war on us!:eek:

jmansell02

I completely agree with jmansell02. Sign that alliance with the babylonians before the Chinese do!

I am currently at work and still quite busy, but there is time for a short post:

@JMansell: Yes, I remember your post concerning alliance with Babylon, and I agree with you. We must avoid war on two fronts. I will reread the last reports / post before playing.

The question was not if Mao would attack but when and where (Xochi... or Atzcapo...). Imagine you were in his situation: Lousy jungle start, way behind in tech, territory & military, and then your religious neighbour starts settling two tiles from two of your cities, immediately applying cultural pressure at the inner 8 tiles (!) of your cities. And you are militaristic. What would you do in that situation? ;)

@Zarth: Two questions: Did Mao have IW & MM before declaring war? With how many and what troops did he attack (one archer only, or additional warriors (there is a warrior now in our former town), did you see swords)? Do you remember that?

To all: "Don't fear the times to come. Warlord Physicist will punish the Chinese swine for betraying us!" :D

Back to work now, more later.

Talk about ROP rape ! Sheesh !
hang in there guys !

I saw warriors and archers only. I don't think he has swords.

I have played 6 turns. It took me 2 1/2 h, including a nearly 1h preparation phase. As I have already made two :smoke: , I think I should have some sleep (it's 1 pm local time now). Please give me the chance to finish my 10 turns on saturday. I will definitely post my report before 12 am (GMT). This will still be within my 48 h. Nevertheless, please excuse the delay.

The good news: my report will be titled "The Empire Strikes Back" :D

"THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK"

My report 150BC - 50AD:

STATUS:

* Fast expansion so far, but we must improve homeland defense.

* Five cities are completely undefended, Texcoco and four of our five island colonies. As I do not know if Mao has MM or not, I will try to bring defenders there ASAP.

* We have five undefended settlers, one of them threatened by two barbarian warriors. No way to save that one.

* Military: 9 jags, 3 spears and 2 sword :(

* Diplo: Hami has Monarchy & CoL, but is unwilling to trade Monarchy. He would trade CoL for about 350g & WM, but I decline. No need to buy CoL right now @ 2nd. RoP for 15 more turns.
Alliance against the Chinese costs WM, 13gpt (all our gpt) and 450g (leaving us with 74g).

150 BC (O)

Hard times need hard decisions: I will have to spend some of our money ... Prepare Jag -> sword upgrade.

Tlat (w/ rax) is building galley -> spear
Tlacopan (w/o rax is building sword) -> Jag
Calix: Jag (instead of worker)
Tlaxcala (city surrounded by Bab cities) builds settler @ 1spt since 22turns (obviously). This city needs spears and walls and a worker, not a settler -> galley (needed to transport settler);
Texcoco: sword -> Jag

(I) We loose the settler on western island to barbs.
Babs start Hanging Gardens

130BC (1)

Settler will not found between Tlaxcala and Teo. We don't want Hami attacking us due to agressive settling. Move settler to Tlax for shipping to Fur's Island.

Upgraded 1 vet Jag to sword.

(I) Orleans completes Colossus

110 BC (2)

Chinese sword near our former city Atzcapotzalco.
Teayo founded on Large Eastern Isle

90 BC (3)

(I) Calixtla.. builds walls

70 BC (4)

The Battle for Canton: we loose 1 sword, Mao Canton & his only Iron :D No more Chinese swords!

We found Cempoala on Large Eastern Isle

50 BC (5)

We kill one Chinese sword near Atzcapo
We found Chalco on Large Eastern Island
Hami has Philosophy. WE MUST FIND OTHER CIVS!

30 BC (6)

Mao is willing to talk. Has CoL, but is broke.

(I) The russians have been destroyed (!)

10 BC (7)

We retake Atzcapo, no losses and our first elite sword
We found Tlalmanalco on Fur's Island

10 AD (8)

Hami has Math

30 AD (9)

50 AD (10)

Battle for Nanking: 2 swords vet -> elite, 1 sword lost, Nanking autorazed (4 slaves)


SUMMARY & SUGGESTIONS:

TO THE NEXT PLAYER:

The cities captured from Mao have been whipped (by Mao) and are unhappy, therefor the tax collectors. One might be changed into a lone scientist (see below).

Concerning Hami: We have NO alliance with Hami and RoP will expire soon. I would suppose that if we avoid further aggressive settlements and trade with him in a way that we give gpt or luxuries, we might not go for us. BTW, soon we will be in a position to defend aginst Hami, perhaps we already are in that situation.

We should improve the defense of our colonies (islands), they are a easy pick. The good thing: Hami does not know about the islands yet; we should not trade WM before the islands are settled.

Two of the swords near the ruins of Nanking are fortified for protection, do not forget them when you move on :)

TO THE TEAM:

Mao, being reduced to two cities, is not a problem any more, however, we have one GREAT problem: 'pelago map. We must meet other civs for any price, otherwise we will fall back too much behind in tech.

What we definitely should do: Start suicide galleys in order to find then other civs. Best guess would be west of Western Island; please someone check the file; maybe there is coast and I was too tired to see. From hindsight, definitely a :smoke: move by me: I had a galley there but decided to push back the fog north of the island.
Maybe the galley W of Atzcapo could go there (would reach the point in 8 turns) (maybe we should simply ignore the Chinese galley next to our galley there, it is no harm).

What we *might* do: We are really lacking a modern government. Three ideas for discussion:
* start min sci research on Monarchy (due in 40 turns)
* start 70% res. on Monarchi (-2gpt), due in 20 turns
* Buy CoL and Philosophy from HAmi (will keep him polite & friendly) and then start min sci on Republic

Sorry that the 0% sci approach works that bad, but I would not have expected such a pelago-like pangea map. (but we should not panik, we are still in a decent position will all that land! )

Sorry for typos and bad English etc, it's quite late now. Screenies to follow tomorrow.

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-50AD.zip

EDIT: Here are the screenshot:

Military advisor 150 BC (left) and 50 AD (right):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-150bc-50ad-F3.jpg

The battleground at 50 BC:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-50ad-map.jpg

I think we should get into Republic ASAP. I am really worried about our culture or lack of it. We are an uncultured people.

I am playing a game of my own which has the same settings as this game. It too is supposedly a pangea but has turned out to be a continental! I dont mean a island just off the mainland, I mean a propper continental map! I built up an enourmous culture at the beggining and increased the size of my empire to become the largest in the world through Culture Flips. Culture also helps in negotations. There is no way we will get flips now, the babs are too powerful in that area. However I am worrid about how powerful the babs are becoming. In republic we will be able to buy libraries and cathedrals as well as geting the lower corruption benifits. I wouldn't worry about war weariness, the Chinese war should be over by the time we revolt!

@ Physisict: In your first of the two pot you said it was 1pm local time. Don't you mean 1am as no-one I know goes to sleep after lunch.

@ The team: I am worrying about a oil source. In my game there was only one in the whole world and where it was was the only eligable location on the planet. We should try to grab a oil or tundra location ASAP! We want to be able to build tanks, battleships and bombers in case we get into a late unavoidable war.

JMansell02

Got it!

Just want to say that I had a sneak peek at the 50BC save yesterday and pretty much agreed with your analysis Physicist. We desperately need more troops, especially with those cities on the islands having little or no garrisons.

:goodjob: with the Chinese war! Hopefully, they won't be much trouble from now on.

Once again people, I am going to have a look at this for a while before playing so if anyone wants to chip in with suggestions - do so now! I'll probably play half today and half tomorrow morning (GMT).

As far as Governments go, I'll have a quick look to see if we can get Phil and COL soon for a reasonable price, but if not probably a lone scientist set on Monarchy could be the best bet. If Hammur has both Phil and COL already, it is odds on he is going for Republic himself - we may be able to arrange a trade if we can get Monarchy first.

Ok, enough prattle, I better go look at the save first!:p

The sceenshots are online, see my previous post.

@jmansell: it was 1 am of course :) . Concerning the game: I would not worry about culture too much at the moment. Bab are culture kings, we can not beat them there. Additionally, there is a good chance that we will take some of his cities in the future, ending the pressure on our cities. We definitely have no chance to flip one of his cites, and having in mind the pelago map, we will never flip other AI cities. I agree with your "better trades with better culture" arguement, however.

@zenga: you could buy Phil & Col together for about all our cash. If you intend to go that way, try to give at least some gpt (5-10) to Hami, this will reduce the chance of a sneak attack (or we will make a good deal if he attacks). We would be pinned down to 20 more turns of peace with him, however.

Question to the team: what are our plans with Hami?

@zenga again: 40 turns min on Monarchy only means that we would not have to buy it later. Buying Col & Phil would waste a lot of money on (quite) useless techs, leaving us unable to deal for Republic.
My plan was to start 1 or 2 suicide galley west from Western Island. In 10 turns, we will know if there are civs over there or not. If yes, deal like cray ;) , if not, research Monarchy asap (neg. gpt) or buy it from Hami, if he is willing to trade it (I would prefer the latter, meaning us being Monarchy in 10 ~ turns, but in that case you would have to save money now. I used up about 300g for upgrades :( ). We could trade for Col & Phil later, these are not crucial at the moment. Just an idea.
BTW, Monarchy might not be worse than Republic as we do not have too many luxes connected (but we could handle that) and might want to go to war with Hami. On the long term, Repulic is a must of course.

Good luck to you, zenga!

EDIT: I checked the file again. Damn! :smoke: There IS land NW of Western Island. When you lock at the about 5 tiles long, strait borderline of the fog NW of the W tip of the island, one can guess that some of the sea tiles there have a bright NW edge. Coast. Major :smoke: . Could someone check if I am right, please?

No comments on the possible island W of Western Island yet. Feel free to post any comments ("Physicist, you idiot, every blind man would have seen that coast" ;) ).

Originally posted by jmansell02
@ The team: I am worrying about a oil source. In my game there was only one in the whole world and where it was was the only eligable location on the planet. We should try to grab a oil or tundra location ASAP! We want to be able to build tanks, battleships and bombers in case we get into a late unavoidable war.
JMansell: I agree with your analysis, but I am not worried about oil for the following reasons:
* most of the other AIs will have the same problem
* in the industrial age, we should have many trading partners and, thus, might be able to buy oil once or twice
* as we will not go for agressive wars, especially that close to the UN, we will either not need oil or we will be able to handle any situation by buying oil and concentration build orders on tanks, battleships etc for 20 turns
* all the currently visible tundra tiles are on Fur's Island, which will (hopefully) be ours in ~ 12 turns (two cities settled, one settler in production) :)

Originally posted by Skyfish
Talk about ROP rape ! Sheesh !
hang in there guys !
Skyfish: I don't seem to get your point here. Mao RoP-raped *us*, so the RoP is nonexistent, and we can battle the Chinese without rep-hit. Or was your comment supposed to be a joke? (Remember, I am German, and you know what is said about German humour ;) )

I have just bought Civ 3 PTW as it has recently come out in the UK. Does anyone know if this will affect my ability to play ordinary Civ 3?

JMansell02

With PTW installed, I believe you can choose to play either vanilla (1.29f) or PTW from your startup menu. They are two separate executables.

Ah yes, so you can. Thanks Theos.

PTW is great. I have heard that the LAN multiplayer option is quite stable and I am lucky enough to have a LAN. Just one problem. I've got no-one to play with. And no I'm not Polyphemus, and no-one isn't my friend. Of course that is a double negative and so I do have a friend(s). So the question is: is no-one someone or someone no-one. So can I play multiplayer with my great friend no-one or is there no-one to play. I don't know whether you followed that, so I'll summarise it: I've only got a virtual friend to play Civ 3 with. Oh well, I could always play myself. Anyway back to the game!!!

May I point out that according to RBCiv rules suicide galleys are darstardly. Don't ask me why. Take that up with Charis and Sirian! So if we are playing under RBCiv rules this would probably not be allowed. But, since we are allowing darstardly actions then OK. For further details: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Also may I point out that if we are allowing darstardly there are loads of things we can do to benifit us and not affect our reputation. Again I refer you to: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Also to update you on the came that I am playing on the same settings as this one: I won easily. I went to war (they declared war on me!) at the end for fun but still won a diplo victory. I annialated everyone but the Egyptians who were apposing me in the UN. I had been alliad with the Americans against Cleo for about a thousand years so they voted for me. I used quite a few really darstardly actions but still won easily.

Im getting tired so I'll sign off now. Good luck to the next player :yawn:.

JMansell02

Originally posted by jmansell02
May I point out that according to RBCiv rules suicide galleys are darstardly. Don't ask me why. Take that up with Charis and Sirian! So if we are playing under RBCiv rules this would probably not be allowed. But, since we are allowing darstardly actions then OK.

Originally posted by theos
Avoid exploits listed by RBCiv. Dastardly actions okay but likely to hurt our cause.

I don't think dastardly actions are forbidden. We wanted to avoid *exploits*. However, when I think about it, suicide galleys are some kind of exploit as the AI can not use them. :confused: I apologize if I made a proposal which was outside of the rules of this game. If we can not use suicide galley, we should discuss our strategy.

Originally posted by jmansell02
Also may I point out that if we are allowing darstardly there are loads of things we can do to benifit us and not affect our reputation.

If we agree that "dastardly" is allowed, please continue. :D

theos: How did you plan for the game to proceed over chrismas etc.? If it is if interest, I could inform you about my time schedule: I will not be able to play until Dec. 26th in the evening (not that I think I would be up during that time :) ). Afterwards, I will be able to play as usual.

:santa: Merry X-mas to all Players, Lurkers and CivFanatics from Physicist! [party] Live long and prosper! :cooool:

Well guys, this was definitely an eventful set of turns. Here's the deal...

50AD(0)

Have a quick look at the map, trying to find the lands W of Western Isle - due to fog cannot be certain if this is coast or sea, will need to explore the area carefully.
Whip harbour in Malinalco. Switch Calix to horseman.
Buy Phil + COL from Hammur for 380g. Switch research to get Republic in 40 with a lone scientist in Canton. Will look to buy tech from Babs since it's unsure if we will meet other civs soon. Don't want to fall too far behind in tech.

70AD(1)

Malinalco builds harbour, start worker. Tex builds spear, start spear. Tlax builds walls, start spear. Tula builds jag, start harbour.

90AD(2)

Teo builds sword, start spear.

110AD(3)



130AD(4)

Babs finish the GLH in Ellipi. Looks like we'll need some suicide galleys - or the capture of Ellipi.
Teno builds spear, start horse. Cempoala builds jag, start worker. Calix builds horse, start courthouse. Tlat builds spear, start courthouse.
Beijing taken with 2 elite sword, 1 resistor.

150AD(5)

Tzin on S fur isle builds settler, start worker. Teo builds spear, start courthouse. Xo builds spear, start spear.
Renegotiate ROP and incense deal with Hammur for ROP, spices + 65g.

170AD(6)

Babs build the Hanging Gardens in Nineveh.
Defeat 2 spear at Shanghai. galley sunk by Chinese near S fur isle.
Galley at W Isle braves the stormy seas and spies coastline.

190AD(7)

Tlal on S fur isle builds jag, start harbour.
Galley survives at sea and reaches a 2-tile island! Hope there's more land near.

210AD(8)

Lose horse at Shanghai. Elite sword defeats spear. Can't be too many more left.

230AD(9)

A Japanese city build the Great Wall - we are going to be miles behind in tech when we meet the other civs.
More great news. The Babs declared war on us! Just what we need right now. Bab warrior defeats spear at Teo, sword comes out and takes warrior. All courthouses switched to swords - no shields wasted.
2-tile island surrounded by sea. This is not looking great.

250AD(10)

Teo riots (weed), set clown. Bab sword takes our sword near Teo. Move jag to Teo from Calix. Rearrange troops in N to move sword from Canton S, spear arrives there next turn.
Elite sword loses to spear at Shanghai. There are at least 2 defenders there.
Huexotia founded on S fur isle, start spear.
1 galley at S isle left unmoved, Bab galley in the area.

So, we now have a 2 front war. I left it up to the next leader to decide whether to make peace with China yet. This is probably the best move, allowing us to concentrate on the war with Babylon.

Talk about ROP rape!:eek: That is one move the AI is not averse to using. In my book, that makes our suicide galley a fair move! Our galley only discovered a small island anyway!:(

Prime objectives in the war with the Babs have to be the capture of Ellipi (GLH) and Nineveh (Hanging Gardens). The immediate aim will probably have to be on the defence of the cities we have already have. So far we have not triggered a Golden Age but this may be unavoidable, and perhaps necessary, at the present time.

So, good luck Theos on your next set of turns. I'll post a screenshot in a short while and describe the situation in a bit more depth.

Here's the save.

The 2 - 250AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/The2-250AD.zip)


Up>>Theos
On deck>>jmansell02

OK, we should not panic, neither concernig tech nor war. Can't look at the file now, but will tonight. If theos has not played then, I will post a comment (not that I think he can't handle the situation :) ).

Tech: It is no problem being 4-5 techs behind when we meet the other civs. Noone is in the middle ages yet (no barb uprising and noone started Sun Tzu's/Sistine).

War: Mao was already toast at the end of my turn. Without looking at the file, I do not know whether it is better to kill Mao first and then go for Hammur, or to concentrate on Hammur now and finish Mao (who is no threat any more w/ oIron&Horse; place 1-2 swords near Shangai and we are save) later. Whatever way theos chooses, I would suggest not to make peace with Mao right now.

That much for now; I will try to comment around 8 pm GMT.

Ok, I've got it.

Interesting situation we've got now. If the war goes according to plan and we're able to control our whole island, things will be looking good for the future.

For RBCiv rules - we're only banning actions on their exploit list. Dastardly actions, such as suicide galleys are fine.

Re: Christmas holidays - if you're not going to be able to post/play for some time during the holiday period, please just post here beforehand and we'll skip you (or juggle you in the roster). I know it's a difficult time to play and we should be more lenient about time limits, but I don't want the game to stall during this period.

I'm fine to play anytime, even on Christmas Day (my birthday) I am doing absolutely noting. (as far as I know) Happy christmas to all!

JMansell02

As promised, here's the latest screenies...

The big picture

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-main.jpg


The new found land

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-isle.jpg


I included a close shot of this so you could get a feel for this area on the map. There are 2 patches of sea, one to the S and W, and one N of this island. No land reachable safely until we capture the GLH.:mad:

The Chinese front

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-china_front.jpg

On the Chinese front, Shanghai has at least 2 defenders. 2 sword are in position, 2 more are healing just inside our borders. The Chinese also have a galley outside Tlax - possibly containing a settler.



The Babylonian front

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-250ad-bab_front.jpg

Overall, the timing of the war with Babylon isn't perfect but does allow for some long term growth, particularly if we can capture the GLH. The next few turns will certainly be pretty hairy but as long as we can hold Teo we, hopefully, should be in good shape.

Here's a rundown of our main cities:

Tlax - only 1 Bowman in position to attack, walls may help.

Teo - Bab sword outside, 2 garrison so can't fall this turn.

Xo - spear due next turn, garrison can be moved S.

Tex - spear due next turn, garrison can be moved S.

Teno - can probably move 1 spear towards Teo.

Tlat - clown can be fired to gain extra shield, need to raise lux tax though.

I have had a look into the file. Not much to add to my previous post; I am sure that Theos, whatever way he decides us to take, will lead the Aztec armies to a great victory that will be remembered for a long time. :)

In agreement with theos and zenga, I think this situation offers good opportunities for us. If we succeed in capturing all cities on our home continent, we would be in an excellent position for the game. Great Library & Great Lighthouse are exactly the wonders we need, and Oracle & Gardens would not hurt, either ;) . I would happlily loose Tula if we capture Babylon instead :D .

@theos: Just two hints:
* I was extremely successful by building Jags and the upgrading them to swords (that's much faster than building swords). Just don't trigger our Golden Age if you want to preserve that possibility. This way we will burn a lot of money, but capturing TGL & GLH is worth any sum as with these wonders we will not have to put any money into research for a long time and rebuild our funds.
* If you think that you can not keep Tlaxcala, simply sell the improvements (esp. the wall!) and let it be captured. We will be able to recapture it within 10-20 turns, I am sure. Or abandon it, we can rebuild it as soon as we control our home continent.

Good luck, theos!

Edit: typo

Final Peace with the Chinese - and the Babylonians face our wrath

(0) 250 AD
Looking over our peaceful empire flung into the depravity of war, it seems we have too few troops to attack the Babylonians just yet. I resolve to build as many troops as possible, and then, when I feel we have sufficient numbers, assault the Babylonians, starting at Ellipi.

Fire entertainer in Teotihuacan - it doesn't need it. Change a couple of build orders for the Jag warrior to swordsman upgrade. Whip a swordsman out in Tlatelolco. Start moving troops to the front. Babylonian swordsman attacks Teotihuacan, and our Jaguar Warrior defeats him! We enter our Golden Age! Note that we can no longer build Jags. We get our first palace upgrade.

(1) 260 AD
Our attack on Shanghai fails. Defences (a single Jag) at Tlaxcala hold.

(2) 270 AD
Shanghai captured. Despite having no cities remaining, the Chinese are not dead, so presumably have an active settler. Defences at Tula, also just a single Jaguar warrior hold. Teotihuacan completes a barracks.

(3) 280 AD
Teotihuacan comes under heavy assault, but our defences are ready, and they are easily defeated.

(4) 290 AD
Chinese galley spotted near Nineveh.

(5) 300 AD
Luxury taxes raised to 10% to counter rioting. Settler pair destroyed, and slaves captured. After defeating a single hit point bowman on the mountain south of Teotihuacan, we finally manage to put some defenders to hold this important position. Our galley loses to the Chinese galley. Some more galleys start converging on it.

(6) 310 AD
Swordsmen march towards Ellipi, home of the Great Lighthouse.

(7) 320 AD
Babylonian ships are swarming all over iron-hill island now that they have the Lighthouse.

(8) 330 AD

(9) 340 AD
Assault on Ellipi begins. 2 Babylonian spearmen killed. A bowmen remains to defend. The Babylonians, seeing their foolish ways, ask for peace. Repentance for their wrongdoing is not enough. Warmongering nations must be purged from the planet. The war continues.

(10) 350 AD
Ellipi captured. The Great Lighthouse is now under our control. Galleys start moving out into the unknown. We sink the Chinese galley, and eliminate the Chinese, may they rest in peace. Swordsmen head to the mountain north-east of Ur.

Final comments
We got very lucky with our city defences. Our Jags did us proud, holding Teotihuacan, Tlaxcala and Tula even against superior power. The golden age in despotism is unfortunate, and is being wasted on troop production, but in the long run it's probably okay as this is going to give us sufficient troops to take out the Babylonians. If we can capture Ur, the Babylonians will be all but defeated as they will lose their source of iron. But beware of culture flips, as they unsurprisingly have a superior culture to us. Now that we have the Great Lighthouse, we need to find a crossing to, presumably, the other continet that has the other 4 civs on it. Assuming we capture the Great Library, we'll end up level in tech with them.

A view of the battlefront with Babylon. If Ur is captured, the Babylonians lose their only source of iron.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-350ad_battlefront.jpg

The save game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-350AD.zip

jmansell02 is up. Zarth on deck. Please post if you're unable to play in the holiday period so we can keep it moving.

:goodjob:

Well done theos! Good news on capturing Ellipi and the GLH, we're well in the game now. I agree with you about the GA in despotism but feel it was necessary to deal with the Babs who are always a danger early in the game. I we can take them out, or at least take the cities on the mainland, we should be in a very strong position.

I have it and am playing.

BIG news!!!

We have a great leader. We now have several options we could:

(a) Use him to build the FP somewhere.
(b) Use him to build a Swordsman army and start the Heroic Epic.
(c) Save him to rush a wonder.

Since this is such a big event I decided to consult the great leaders of the past (you guys!) as to what to do. Please cast your vote ((a), (b) or (c)) explain your decision ASAP (I want to get on with the game. I will be carrying on with the game 15:00GMT so get your opinion in by then. BTW the war is going fine... so far!

[phaser]
Us.....The babs realising that they have bitten off more than they can chew!

JMansell02

1500GMT? Have we missed casting our vote?:)

In any case, my vote would go to (b), the sword army for the following reasons:

(c) is a no go. All the ancient wonders are built, the next ones that will be useful to us are Sistine's and Leo's. That's a long time to hang around!

(a) would normally be the top choice but the shape of the landmasses so far are not particularly nice looking for an FP to gain full advantage. The best bet may be to build the FP by hand close by (maybe in Teo or Xo) and hope to relocate the palace later with another leader.

(b) is most immediately useful. We're still at war with the Babs and they have some big cities to take. An army would steamroller any defender. The down side is that unless you don't fill the army it will be stuck on this continent until bigger boats come along.

Whatever you decide (if you haven't already), good luck!:D


As regards to schedules, I'll be unable to play on Boxing Day and then will be clear until Hogmanay. To everybody, have a good Christmas and to jmansell, enjoy your birthday too!:beer:

Oh no, don't worry. I meant 1500GMT Xmas day. Keep the opinions coming in. Presonally, I don't know if we really need a army but I would go for option (b) simply because it will allow us to build the Heroic Epic and that will ensure more leaders in the future should any more wars call apon the Great armies of the massive Aztec Empire!!!

:ar15::nono:
The Babalonians regret telling off the Aztecs for invading China.

JMansell02

What a nice Christmas present, jmansell02! With the amount of warring we're planning on doing, I don't see the Heroic Epic being useful. Creating an army will only have a very short-term benefit - the war with Babylon which we are likely to win anyway.

A Forbidden Palace is likely to give us the best lasting benefits. I'd build it in Ur (when captured) as it is pretty central and two rings away from Tenochtitlan. Possibly in the future, if we have lands on other continents, we could move the palace.

So my vote is for option a.

I say option a too.

We don't want to make a lot of wars after we finish the babylonians and kicking the babs of our continent will be easy to do without that army.
The FP gives us the possibility to quickly rebuild the Babylonian cities after we capture them and we could turn these cities into highly productive core cities.

OK so the vote is down to Physicist. If we do build the FP where do you think we should buld it. WE could build it on the homeland or we could build it on another island to have 2 centres of production in the empire. Building it on the homeland would make the former Bab lands powerful but building it elsewhere would give us a 2nd base of ops should we be attacked on the mainland.

The vote is now between options (a) and (b). I will probably choose (a) should physicist fail to vote. Only 2h 47mins left to vote!!!

JMansell02

When I look at the map I can see several possible FP locations. We could: (a) place it in Teotihucan and immediatly get the benifits, (b) place it in Ur (Yes we do capture it easily) and turn former Babalonian territory into a corruption free zone, (c) place it Tula and hope to capture the Babs Western Isle, (d) In Chalco on the far NW isle or (e) In Tlalmanalco on the souther isle. Options (b) and (c) are in danger of being captured. I would go for (a) becuse we can always move our Palace from Tenochtitlan, should the need arise. Merry Xmas to all.

JMansell02

Just returned home. Probably too late for the vote. Would have voted for FP, but anything is ok!

EDIT: I had great success in my last two games with an early FP (one of them built from scratch, in the second ring around the capitol, before 500 AD). Really pushed my development. No idea about the actual placement, choose whatever makes sense to you. I agree with theos & Zarth about little gain from an army / the Heroic Epic.

PS:
:goodjob: to theos and jmansell for progress in the war. Excellent performance, guys :D
:bday: to JMansell!

MORE EDIT: I had a closer look at the map. Ur looks like the best FP site to me. But probably the FP is already placed now (when I am writing that) :) . I am really looking forward to hearing about the progress of the Aztec armies, jmansell!

Well here is my report on the Goings on. I have made some mistakes but hopefully none too bad!

350AD (0) – I examine the situation. We are probably going to take the whole island and become the largest and most powerful civ in the world without a single dishonourable move! The Babs destroy an elite sword with a vet sword outside Ur in between turns and a Bab Galley turns up outside Far iron isle.

360AD (1) – The Bab galley is trapped by Far Iron Isle now without the GLH so I leave it there. A vet. Sword loses to a reg. Bowman near Ur. 8 full-strength swords are moved into striking distance of Ur. I put 2 swords on a boat to attack Uruk. If they build a harbour there then they can continue to build swordsmen and terrorise our cities.

370AD (2) - A Bab Galley has moved next to Talmanalco. Assuming the worst I rush a spearman.

THE ASSALT ON UR

Vet Swordsman loses to a vet Bowman taking off 2hp
Elite Swordsman wins against regular Spearman losing 2 hp
Elite Swordsman loses to regular spear taking off 2hp
Regular Swordsman loses to a vet Bowman taking off 0hp. Bowman upgrades.
Elite Swordsman wins against elite Bowman losing 4hp. GREAT LEADER.
Regular Swordsman wins against 1/4 vet spearman and upgrades. UR CAPTURED.
One Babylonian slave.

The Babs now can no longer build those infuriating Swordsmen but the Bowmen are still a danger. I decide to march straight for Babylon because I can gather a new army to take Nineveh from Tenochtitlan very soon. I send Ahuitzotl to Teotihuacan to build the FP.

380AD (3) – Bab swordsmen lands next to Talmanalco.

THE ASSALT ON URUK

Vet Swordsman wins against vet Spear losing 1 hp
Vet Swordsman wins against regular Bowman losing 0 hp. URUK CAPTURED
One Babylonian slave.

390AD (4) – Terrible News. Ellipi Flips back to the Babs. We lose control of the GLH. We lose three Galleys as a result of this. The Babylonians will pay for this atrocity. We lose Talmanalco to the Babs.

400AD (5) – The Babs land a settler pair SW of Beijing. We recapture Ellipi with one vet Swordsman.

410AD (6) – The Babs found Nippur SW of Beijing.

420AD (7) – The Babs once again control Ellipi. I may have to capture Babylon on the same turn as I recapture Ellipi. I recapture Ellipi anyway and move my troops in position to capture Babylon. I destroy Nippur with a vet Swordsman.

430AD (8) – I lose an elite Swordsman to a vet Bowman outside Babylon. I decide to call off the attack.

440AD (9) - ANOTHER GREAT LEADER. I decide to form a Swordsman army with this one. He came from a swordsman battle outside Nineveh where a elite Swordsman won vs a 1/4 vet Bowman.

460AD (11) – The Golden age ends. Babylon is still to well protected to attack.

470AD (12) – The Babs take Huexotla on the southern isle.

480AD (13) –

ASSALT ON NINEVEH

Swordsman army wins against vet Bowman losing 0hp.
Vet Swordsman wins against vet Bowman losing 2hp.
Vet Swordsman loses to regular Bowman taking off 0hp.
Vet Swordsman loses to regular Bowman taking off 2hp. Bowman upgrades.
Vet Swordsman wins against regular Bowman losing 2hp.
Elite 2/5 Swordsman loses to regular Bowman taking off 1hp.

Heroic epic started in capital.

490AD (14) –

ASSALT ON NINEVEH COTINUED

Swordsman army wins against vet Bowman losing 9hp. NINEVEH CAPTURED

OK well that’s me done. We STILL don’t have enough troops to take Babylon and I am worried about Uruk and Tinzintunstzen falling but apart from that we are in a strong position. The babs have only 9 cities remaining but we are still not safe. Ur or Ellipi could flip and those pesky Bowmen are SOOOO annoying. We also need to get more Galleys built and the Heroic Epic built ASAP. Good luck to the next player. Two pieces of advice: (a) CAPTURE THE ANNOYING CITY OF BABYLON!!!!! And (b) KILL’EM!!!!! I probably should have gone after another city before I tried to take Babylon but I didn't. The babs have hundreds of Bowmen inside beware. If I were them Iwould have attacked with their forces and marched to our capital!

@ the next player. Do not attemt to take Babylon with the current forces. You will fail

The file is at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-500AD.zip

JMansell02

Captured two enemy cities and got two leaders, great performance! Bad luck on the flipping of Ellipi, but that's life. Of course the city Babylon will be heavily defended (6 bow/spear probably?) and we will need sufficient force (~10-12 swords) to take it, but I am optimistic that soon our home continent will be ours. Maybe, when my turns come, the Aztecs will already be able to rest their swords & axes? We will see.

Concerning the Heroic Epic: we will probably not finish it during the Babylonian war, so we will not gain from it now. What about delaying the Epic and using our capitol for troop production in order to kick the babs off our continent ASAP?

But now for something different. I would like to trigger a discussion about a strategic issue that might become important during my turns or during the reign of the my successor: Middle Age Wonders.
I asume that we will soon control our home continent (in 10 - 20 turns). Do we want to hunt down every last Babylonian on the other islands, or do we intend to stop warring at that point and start building infrastructure? I would suppose the latter (Hammi's vote is probably lost, but we could finish him off later in the game). If we decide to turn to more peaceful ways, we might consider a palace prebuild somewhere to get one or two of the early middle age wonders. I would probably be the one to start this project.
We should also think about what wonders we are interested in. Given our diplomatic approach, I would prefer one of the religious wonders (Sistine, Bach's) to the militaristic ones (Sun Tzu's, Leo's), among the miliaristic ones rating Leo's higher than Sun Tzu's as baracks are cheap for us and we will not need too many troop factories.
Generally, I would suggest that we try to get both religious wonders or Sistine & Leo's. If problems (= war) arise, at least Sistine (the effects of Bach's are limited to the continent it is built on, same as Sun Tzu's effects BTW). Later I would propose to go for Smith's, but this is not an issue yet. To get Sistine for sure, we will probably need a prebuild, as the civs on the other continent will soon reach the middle ages and start to build these wonders (iirc, the Great Wall was already started, so Construction has been discovered already).
EDIT: Or maybe we should go for Sistine only, considering our backward infrastructure (we will have to build markets, courts, lot's of aqueducts and cathedrals soon)?

Suggestions, comments?

On Wonders, I'd go for Sistine's first and then Leo's. The other two will have a limited effect with the land we have.

On Great Leaders, I guess everybody got their wish in the end!:D

Okay, Zarth, you're up.

I agree that as a peaceful nation, we need to try and gain some of the non-military wonders during the Middle Ages. Definitely Sistine. Preferably Bach's and Smith's. We only need Copernicus's and Newton's if we're going to do our own research. I'd like these if possible as trading away techs near the end is a sure way to get the others gracious for the UN vote.

So, let's aim to get 3 wonders, avoiding Sun Tzu's and Leo's.

got it!!

Just plugging in during feasty season to check progress...
You guys are doing a great job :goodjob:
Happy Birthday to JMansell :bday:
(btw don't change the nickname)

to answer very late to the Physicist : I meant the AI RoP raped US and that is surprising as the debate about RoP rape is that the AI does not normally do it and that is why it should not be done according to RBCiv rules !
Also the suicide galleys are dastardly but not an exploit, that means it can still be done but "in a reasonable manner".
:fish:
plugging out and see you soon.......

The AI RoP rape is usually simply moving several units to *ONE* city, and then attacking despite the RoP. This is more a AI RoP sneak attack.

A true RoP rape, that is considered the exploit, is to move every troop you have next to multiple cities, all available workers, etc - then you declare war taking a huge chunk out of the AI due to the RoP.

How are you getting on Zarth. I'm sure you have something to talk about. C'mon. Please! I'm dying here not knowing what's going on!!!

:help: :help: :help:
me!

JMansell02

I played the first 5 turns this morning. I am playing the last 5 now.

0. 500AD
We destroy 3 bowman attacking us.

1. 510AD
we lose the swordsman on the SW island.

2. 520AD
we kill a bowman

3. 530AD
moving swords to babylon
we lose Uruk

4. 540AD

5. 550AD
We discover the Republic, start mathematics.
we capture babylon destroying 8 bowmen and losing 4 swordsmen. We also get 4 slaves.

6. 560AD
I move units into Babylon toheal and end the riot.

7. 570AD
we capture ashur killing 3 bowmen and losing nothing. I move more units into babylon.

8. 580AD
we kill a bowmen near Tzintzuntzen.
I destroy another bowmen

9. 590AD
I'm starving out all people in Babylonians in babylon. I'm moving troops to akkad .

10. 600AD
We lose 4 swordsmen while killing 4 bowmen in Akkad. Akkad is ours. The babs are of the continent.

I'm starving people out of Babylon and Akkad, I think we should keep on doing this to not let these cities riot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/the2-600AD.zip

Got it. Expect my report sunday afternoon/evening.

The years 500 AD - 600 AD

STATUS:

Well, things have changed significantly during the last 40 turns. :goodjob: to the former leaders!
* We have complete control over our home continent and have strong military here.
* We also control the two eastern islands; all cities there produce 1 spt only; as a consequence, only some Jags there. I will take spears there from our home continent.
* We have one city on each of the two western islands, both with two spears for defence, but no offensive troops; the rest of the island is controlled by the Babylonians.

I decide that we need some more galley urgently, to bring toops to our colonies, and to find other civilizations.

I visit Hammi. He is willing to make peace and is "close to" giving Huexotla *and* Tlalmanalco ("his" two cities on Fur Island). Alternatively one of these cities and Math, or Monarchy (but no city in that case, AI values government techs very high). I decline for the moment as I would like to get complete control over Fur Island.

0. 600 AD (inherited turn)
Ellipi is currently building a library. Ellipi was a Babylonian core city, containing GLH, thus with high (Bab) culture. We have to build some Aztec culture there. Furthermore, the city is employing an entertainer! Thus, I change build order from lib to temple, due in 1 turn (no shields wasted).
Change several build orders from sword to spear, horse or galley as we have 25 swords already which will be obsolete soon. (Cities with build order changes: Xochicalco (horse), Canton (galley), Texcoco (spear), Tlaco (galley), Tlat (spear), Calix (horse), Teo (spear), Atzcapo (galley)).
Lux rate to 0% (only Ur is affected), some MM.
(I) Resistance ends in Babylon, rush temple & shuffle around some troops.

1. 610 AD
Starve Ashur, Akkad & Babylon (also during the next turns).
We kill a Bab sword at Tz