RBP2 Variant Succession Game

Civ: Korea Difficulty: Deity
Foes: Japan, China, Mongols, India, Russia
Map: Small, 60% water Pangaea, 5 billion, temperate, Sedentary barbarians

Suggested reading - RobberBaron's Wang Kong thread on Korea ideas...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70497

Scientific and Commercial, not bad for a peaceful builder game.
But we're not playing that. We're out for blood! A very KEY concern
is the need for a GA to set off the golden age! The scientific choices
are Great Library, ToE, Newton ; Commercial include: Lighthouse, Colossus,
UN, Magellans, and Smiths. The age at which we would 'like' to be at the
height of our power is late Middle Ages, with our UU at Metallurgy.
It needs saltpeter, not iron.

You start out with the Alphabet and Bronze Working. Nice ones.
- Can try for Colossus asap
- One tech from spearmen
- Alphabet is on path to literature and GL
(Note Math needs Alphabet but also Masonry, and doesn't head to literature)

I ran a good half-dozen quick openings to see how effective various plans might
be, bee-line Great Library, build Colossus, and warrior rush!
- On a small pangaea I couldn't get even CLOSE to the Great Library
- Unless I had a coastal capital and forsook all expansion, I couldn't get Colossus
- I never really did see a 'super food' start, so I'm not saying the above are
impossible, just highly unlikely under normal conditions. But I didn't want
an artifically good start here.
- I had a very fun test game where I whacked three Indian workers with a warrior,
extremely early. The counterattack was brutal. His "starting" units were enough
to wipe me out twice!

Seems the best chance for early wonders here is a leader! 8-\

So after those test games, I conclude on the following scenario for this game:

* Koreans mindset is quite territorial, in a gang-like world where turf and
rumbles are everything.
* All the bullies in the neighborhood have picked on Wang Kon enough, calling
him a sissy moneygrubbing bookworm. He's had enough, and now insists on
being called Wang Kong! :hammer:
* Deny the first tribute, and prepare for the worst in the opening moves.
(This is just a foretaste of the "Defiant" nationalist game!) After this,
you're free to pay/deny/request tribute as makes sense.
* Catapults *MUST* play a role in the ancient era war. Plan to make many of them,
have them on-hand for defense as well as offense, and have two dozen by Metallurgy.
* If the tech pace can be slowed, the duration where Hwatch'a are effective will be longer
* Prepare for an offensive war after getting a Hwatch'a SOD.
* Given the oddness of the game and upcoming holidays, this will NOT be a strict
10-turn game. I went 2-3 times as far as a typical SG opening, because I basically
had to see the ancient era war through. Others should play anywhere from 10 turns
to enough to 'make a statement'. 20-30 turns are fine for the next turns. Once we
hit Metallurgy we'll do a round of 10 turns each just so that ALL get a chance to
use these in battle.
* Given the abysmal hope of building our way to a Golden Age anytime before Internet,
give the strongest possible consideration to CAPTURING one sci and one commercial
wonder, then building anything - that will give us a GA. That would mean GL or Newton,
AND either Lighthouse, Colossus, Smith or Magellan. This/these would very likely be
determined Hwatch'a based assaults.

Here's the starting position of the first one generated after our tests were done...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-4000BC-StartingLocation.jpg

More coming next post... Roster is partly TBA...
Charis

Strategically, the plan was to build up four cities ASAP, and some barracks,
then use spears and cats with just a sprinkling of archers, for our first war.
The dreaded "Catapult rush" !! :hammer: That'll work on deity, right??
(If you think Charis has 'lost it', you might be right!)

4000BC - A decent start, and I wanted to take whatever I got unless it was awful.
The wine has bonus food, on a hill, we're on a river, two BG, and some hills and
grass. Should have the choice of running high food or high production. Seoul founded.
We want to get Math asap, but start research on Writing, since it's a second lvl tech
with some trade potential. Masonry should be easy to get on trade. Builds will focus
on settlers, not granary, a few warrior scouts, then barracks.

3200BC - After one warrior, our first settler is produced. We will follow along the
river, about three spots away each, give or take some if bonus terrain. First one
will hit dyes. Always nice to have lux to trade for tech, on diety.

3050 BC - Pyongyang founded. Goes right for barracks. Gettin' ready to RUMBLE!

2470BC - Recently our second warr met a Russian scout, nothing affordable to trade.
Up north, first barb hut was... empty. In fact, this area looks like the future
home of "North Korea". With no barbarians (except from huts) I send the
unescorted settler further along the river.

2270 BC - There he spots two silks, on a coast with river - Wonsan is founded (warr)
Seoul pops out its third settler and starts its rax. Pyongyang is working on our
first vet spear. Over last few turns, Japan, Mongols and India all introduce themselves.
We have nothing to trade them, but our bank account grows. We get pottery from a hut,
far better than a kick in the teeth. We're behind about 5 techs.

2070 BC - Our fourth city is founded, Pusan. It starts a barracks!
BTW, in PTW, I'm exploring a lot less, because contacts will come to YOU.
Writing is finished, we trade it for Masonry, and start to research Mathematics (for cats)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-2070BC-Korea.jpg

1910 BC - We get math and sell it around, netting Iron Working, Wheel, Warrior Code,
Horseback Riding, Map Making, Mysticiam and Ceremonial Burial! Sweeeetness! Tech parity!
(This after contact with China) We start Literature at 40, in case they neglect that
path. We also get a few territory maps and start to see what's going on in the world.
(It was good to get contact with all civs before buying any tech, with cash saved up)
We have iron close, but Pyongyang will need to expand first. One problem... no horses!

So... will the fighting start soon? :rolleyes:

(continued)
Charis

1725 BC - And so it begins... Russia demands tribute. When last I looked I had a
warrior near his worker, a spear next to his scout, Russia was miles away, and
with all this effort building barracks, we're just in NO MOOD TO CAVE IN CATHY!!

I tell her to blow it out her rear, and she declares war!

Her doomed scout in the NW of land won't like this. I consider trying to pull Mongols in,
but we can't afford an embassy. Their worker ran away, but we kill a warrior out
west, but ours is lost next turn. The scout makes a wrong turn and is killed.
(Speaking of horses, there actually are some way up in North Korea)

1550 BC - Things are very quiet as we build up. Russia is going to take quite
a while to get over here. I note that hey, there is a FOUR tile wide choke spot
that separates the whole of Korea from the rest of the world. I'll set up my
defenses there, on the two mountains. At this point our military is 5 spear,
1 cat, 1 warrior and 1 worker holding up a cardboard cutout.

1400 BC - We're just setting up our 4-man defense when the Mongols settle a
town RIGHT next to the line, which will force us to retreat. Gah!!!
Or will it? Teju demands I leave *immediately* or declare war.

GET READY TO RUMBLE!! The proud Koreans refuse to leave. (I don't know how this
effects rep, but not too bad I think.) Next turn we defeat their silly puny little
conscript warrior defendse and RAZE it! :hammer:

1325 BC - We're engaging Russians now, killing a horse and archer. We score our first
glorious artillery hit, helping us to sustain no losses. No sign of Mongols yet.
We've added 2 archers, another cat, and 2 spear to our army since last time.
Things continue going well over the next two turns, as we're much smarter on terrain,
when to attack, and when to back up. Plus... we have catapult support!!

1225 BC - Seoul has switched to a settler, due next turn, to try to found a city up
at our choke point. The others are making a spear and two cats. Things are going well
still, although the Russia units are numerous and... er... what's that coming?
A Mongol horde??? Sword, Archer and 4 Warriors?? Fighting two civs at once?
Who got us into this mess??? :eek:

1200 BC - We kill the sword, archer and one warrior, losing an archer.
We have to start retreating a little before the Russian advance.

Ow!! We get some nice kills, but lose some in the process, and have several near
death and overexposed. Our army is now 8 spear, 1 archer, 2 cats.

1175 BC - Mongols are sliding *past* our front line defense and are going to
head for the cities. We've razed a city of theirs and killed about 3-4 troops,
will they take peace? Yes! In fact they'll 'almost' give a nice tech, and with
6gpt we snag the pricey 'construction'. Will Russia take peace? No? With Mongols
now at war, I can risk going after an Russian archer with a spear, and we win!
Now she'll give peace for free. We buy three techs, Code of Laws, Philosophy,
and Polytheism, for 12gpt and 153g - wanted to shed excess gold so we're not a
tribute threat again :P Peace again! Our glorious catapults have prevailed!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-1325-1175BC-Korea.jpg

We knocked the Mongols from 2nd down to 4th place in score, checked Russia's
fierce expansion, and made a name for ourselves. China has settled a city right
near us and since they're *so* far away, are an excellent subject for expulsion.
(If so, let it grow to size 2 or more, to be a keeper :P )

Don't neglect that we've pulled two rapid expansionists out of settler mode,
and this effect will be a longterm one. Oracle, Pyramids and Colossus are done,
and most are on Great Library.

Plus points - we're *AHEAD* of some civs on tech - China lacks construction and
Polytheism (they do have lit, but we'll research it in 13 ourselves, hold off)
The Mongols lack Polytheism! India and Russia have Currency and is in Middle Ages.
Japan has Currency.

* Get Currency ASAP, and since we're "scientific" (couldn't tell could you?!)
we'll get a free tech and vault ahead. (For about 20 turns, then they'll be at
Magnetism, deity being what it is!) If China gets Currency for example, they'll
trade it for construction.

Minus points - we have just four cities and no granaries. Do we even have a temple? One worker (bah!) It's EXPANSION time!
I fully expect a *swarm* of settlers to roll east soon. If we can set up a
mil blockade it would slow the others down a ton.

Next leader - our settler is 'active' - he can slide west, then found a city where
the catapult is now sitting, a choke spot on the coast. The Mongols have a settler
THERE on the slagheap spot - so I would wager they will re-found there. Chances
are... it has a resource? We'll surely want to capture it 'someday'.

On small Map OCN is 14, so we need seven cities for FP. It would be nice but not
required, to have our FP up in "North Korea."

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom
? was Gothmog interested - is he still after seeing how nuts this one is?
? Anyone else who shows no fear at Deity Korean warmongery ?
Meldor - this one seems up your alley?!

Jaxom - take a couple of days and as many turns as feels approriate for you
to 'make a mark' on the game :) We'll see by then if there is other
interest. I would bet you see us getting into Middle Ages and taking a very
brief lead in tech, doing a solid job of expanding, buildup our pitiful
infrastructure, and probably see us into a new government. Maybe even look closely
at North Korea and found a city at what would make a good spot geographically.
(Or maybe given my slow start that would take a couple of millenia to do)

Save file 1175BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-Koreans-1175_BC.zip)

Good luck!
Charis

CAPTURING one sci and one commercial wonder

HUH?


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LAK-221.jpg

What a start, you ARE itching for a rumble! Expect the turns done by Tuesday night at most. If that is too many days, let me know and I'll pass for now (struggling to complete Epic 20 by Sunday).

LK: Since version 1.29f, capturing wonders can trigger your GA when you build any wonder, if you have captured wonders with your civ traits.

> What a start, you ARE itching for a rumble! Expect the turns
> done by Tuesday night at most.

No problem on Tues Jaxom! I like to keep a "don't interfere with the Epics timetable" policy! Also, sorry about the extra long first turn, but I really did want to rumble, and couldn't with certain expect reasonable people to either build catapults on deity or to have a mid-ancient era war with the TWO game superpowers with the military we had. You got ya work cut out for ya!!! :lol:

Lee - to clarify - the game checks to see if wonders should kick off a GA everytime you *build* one, and it includes all you have. So if you capture ones with the traits you need, it won't check it them, but notice it when you build one of your own. On a different map setting then, building the Great Library, capturing Colossus, gives you a non-wasted nicely timed GA if you can build something like Sistine or Bach's.

It would be just awesome if in this game we could capture for a GA. Otherwise, literally, we won't see one til Internet. Although... ToE for science would do it if we could snag Smith's or Magellan's. If we get a leader who can rush Smith's for example, that would be great too.

Charis

Thanks for the plug, Charis! I'll be following this one with keen interest. (I'd ask to join you here, but I'm still mastering the monarchy/emporer level, and refining my micro-management skills. Deity: shudder.)

Charis,

Is this the "semi" open game idea? If it is then I will be happy to join. If not then I must pass, as I have already committed to my limit on the number of games I am playing. I joined HOT1 a couple of days before you put this up.

The 'open' SG is the Arabia game, RBP3. This one isn't grab-the-game, but we'll be playing with more turns per player turn, and accordingly more time to do your turns and reply. There aren't strict limits on either due to the holidays and the nature of the game, but each person on the roster should take it on a day or two where they have time to play it carefully and well, and play enough turns to make their mark. (I know there's certain risk leaving it like that)

Often a lot of time in SG is analyzing the situation when you get a game, and by the time you're into it and have a good solid plan in mind, it's time to turn the game over. I'm hoping here to take 'less' player time overall due to lack of context-switching, but them them hold the reigns a little longer to not only have a plan, but carry it out.

Meldor, if you think you could fit that in, 2-4 day turnaround time with probably double or triple the turn length, I think you would like it. But if not, I've been there and don't want you overloaded :P

Charis

Charis, I'm willing to play LAST if you want me. I have beaten diety before, though I can't prove it other than by pasting a high score thing (and we all know how much "proof" those are). I usually don't play Diety anymore simply because of the ammount of thought time involved, but for an SG I think I can handle some 20 or so turns of deep though now and then heh. Warmongery usually isn't my strong point, but I've been doing a bit more of it lately and doing pretty well.

You got a firsthand look at my play in RBP1, so I'll let you make the call. Either way wont hurt my feelings :)

Ok, you talked me into it! Actually, looking at things, I should be finished with LK35 and QSC-c1 soon. This should open up enough time for something as I don't think Lee will start another WM before the new year. As long as you don't mind a longer reporting time during the holidays. I will be on my father-in-laws PC over that time.

Marshall, you did a great job in RBP1, and I liked the depth of your analysis and fine execution. The other game of yours I've seen was one of the epics, which was very well played. So welcome aboard the Asian Rumble! :hammer:

Meldor, excellent - glad the timing works ok.

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom
Meldor and Marshall -- whoever can grab first after Jaxom's turn
should do so

With the extra #turns, this should be enough people, so that it's not a milllenium between player rounds :P

Realizing now just how precarious a positon we're going to be in this game, I think we're either going to have a stunning win or the RB's first deity defeat! :p

Charis

I'm out for a couple days, let meldor take it. I dont even mind waiting and going after you in round 2 again if it comes to that. I'll be pretty busy over the holiday weeks. Besides, somone has to be the peace monger in the group and he should probably go after the guy who simultaneously gets us into war with 2 diety AI's when we have nothing but cardboard cutouts =P.

I'm kind of immagining a split personality at work in this Wang Kon/Kong guy. Peacful builder one minute, crazed warmonger the next. If only he knew why he liked catapults so much...... Maybe some day he'll get it. Lets hope we live long enough for him to find out :lol:

BTW, are we sure we cant set off a GA with our UU? It says in the civlopedia that it can actually take off that last HP and kill a unit unlike other bombardment units. I'd assumed thats how it could trigger a GA. I've not played a game with the Korean's yet so I have no firsthand knowledge.

EDIT
OK, I lied. It does NOT say that in the civlopedia..... I was sure I'd read that somewhere, but perhaps that was incorrect information :(

It's true and verified that Hwatch'a can NOT set off GA in a game that's not a mod. They do NOT have lethal bombardment. I ran a test to be sure - they bombard-pillage tiles, destroyed barracks, and hurt enemies, but with no GA. Also, if you fire on a unit with 1hp, it targets the improvements under him instead, as with normal artillery.

This factor will be huge in our game. It means we either get no GA until the modern age with the Internet, or that we must do something like capture the Great Library and the Lighthouse, then build any wonder, to get our GA.

Too bad...
Charis

Well I guess I missed the (turtle) boat on this one. My castle came under siege and I was buisy fighting off elf warriors, typical RL stuff. Haven't been able to get online until today (back at work). Looks like a nice start and a fun game, I'll have to start a similar SP game.

PS - I thought the Hwatch'a had lethal bombardment too, not sure where that rumor started.

The great Korean leader, King Kong, has entrusted me, Prince Ipal, to expand our empire. I burn a candle to our great god, Zilla, and proceed to evaluate the state of the nation.


Preturn: Lots of unhappy faces on the foreign front but that is to be expected after King Kong makes the diplo rounds. Buying updated maps for chump change, then selling the new map for bigger chumps, allow me to purchase Literature from China for 19 golds. No point waiting 13 turns for so little golds. Besides, I need the scientist to be productive and get a settler out of Pyongyang. I set research to the Republic but we are too poor to do any research anyway. Having done these deeds, I am ready to move forward in time. I plan to settle enough cities for our FP and then leave the next leader take over.


IT: Russia completes the Great Wall.

1150 BC Namp'o is settled on a hill, 3 tiles from the capitol. Genghis settles a city on the burned down spot, it does have a resource, there is a fur in that tile.

1125 BC Oh great, China discovered the Republic and traded it for Currency and Construction.

1100 BC ...
1075 BC ...
1050 BC ...

IT: China build the Great Lighthouse. Russia begins Sun Tzu. India settles in north Korea.

1025 BC Seoul and Pyongyang both produce settlers and begin spears.

1000 BC ...
975 BC ...

950 BC Pusan and Wonsan spit out workers, start on catapults. Cheju is founded on the North side of the choke. A Russian settler pair and a Japanese settler pair both shout nasty things before turning around. :p

925 BC Hyangsan is founded to claim two whales and two spices.

IT: Russia builds the Great Library.

900 BC ...
875 BC ...
850 BC ...
825 BC ...
800 BC ...
775 BC ...

750 BC The Library of Namp'o is pop-rushed.

730 BC ...

710 BC Ulsan is founded in the middle of the jungle north of Seoul.

670 BC The peace treaties are finally over. Making 17gpt now. I buy Currency from Gandhi for 7gpt and 84 golds. We enter the middle ages and get Monotheism for free. Of course they all have it, as well as feudalism and engineering.

650 BC ...

IT: Japan gets Sun Tzu, India gets Hanging Gardens, Russia cascade to Leonardo.

630 BC ...
610 BC ...
590 BC 2 more settlers are sent on their way.

570 BC ...
550 BC Inch'on settled about an inch from India. :)

530 BC Pyongsong settled on the river SE of Seoul. This concludes the land grab. Most cities are within 3 tiles of another, I hope this is not considered ICS. There is still some room to expand, but with 10 cities, I say let the AI settle North Korea for us and lets concentrate on getting that jungle cleared and marketplaces running.


Korea in 550 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp2_530bc.jpg

Namp'o should get its temple rushed as soon as possible. Cheju should do the same after getting a worker out. The libraries for the new cities should also be rushed ASAP.

Here is the save at the end of 530 BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp2_530bc.sav)

With these thoughts, the Prince Ipal leaves the throne for another leader to make his mark.


P.S.: I think they thought a Hwach'a with leathal bombardment would be unbalancing. Personnaly, I would have made it lethal, but disallowed the upgrade from catapults.

It seems it is time for the next in line to take control of the Korean people....the youngest scion of the family, He'sa, takes the reins of power.

The joy of the people is such that the spilll into the streets screaming at the top of their lungs...He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon.....It will be seen if they know their new leader or not.

Seems like a nice turn there Jaxom, and no more bloodshed. (Gosh, this isn't going to be QSC1 is it?!)

Too bad on the late middle age entrance - I'm not sure if we had the cash to buy in sooner, but in test games, it was crucial for a sci civ on deity to get to the next age before everyone had all the 'tier one' techs there. For example, on a Korean deity test I slid all sliders down, moved workers to 'gold' tiles, and went into hock to buy currency, made Middle Ages, was able to get both Engr and Feud, and enough gpt that I could move the workers and sliders back where they were and not be negative income. It helped there that no one else had Mono, of course. So there's some luck involved. That'll be something to keep in mind as we end middle, and industrial ages.

As far as FP - did you get the people's message? I'm pretty sure it's 12 cities on a large map? So Meldor, see if that's a build option, otherwise found two more cities ASAP.

I concur with your strategy though, apart from two more, if needed, go into heavy builder mode for the core. If and when Mongols, China, or purple acts up, we'll at least have one city to instantly take and cause them pain, looking at thier settlements so far. Of course don't neglect catapult production :hammer:

Good luck He'sa Kon!
Charis

EDIT - to respond to Jaxom below
- Duh, small map. I'm thinking Arab game, you're right.
- Yes, the gpt was for tech. In fact, a solid 3 techs,
Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Polytheism

This is a small map, I got the FP message after settling Hyangsan, that was the 7th city. There was no cash available before the turn I said bought it. I wished you had not put a GPT deal on the peace treaty so I could get out of it. But you proabably did it to buy some tech, right? :hmm: too lazy to go read back your turn report. :)

I'm 99% sure I know where I read the letal bombardment bit with the UU. I believe it was in the printed manual where it said it had lethat bombardment. Howerver, I can't find mine to confirm that. I mucked about in the editor looking for a bombardment can kill flag associated with units but couldnt find one either. Aparently the lethal bombardment aspect was changed sometime after the manual that came with the XP was printed. Not surprising really as the UU's from the shiped vanila game didnt match the ones originally posted at civ3.com :lol:

As He'sa comes to power, he feels the peoples love. They shout in the streets, He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon..... He does wonder why guards have to drag some of them off, but it doesn't worry him too much. He surveys the land he has stolen.....er, inhereted. All we have is one archer? That is the some total of our lffensive forces? How is He'sa supposed to steal....er, incorporate any more lands? We have things that throw big rocks, that we like, but no men of steal? No, gaints on horseback. Our enemies....er, friends, probably have knights in nice shiny armour by now. We must have more than rock throwers to even hope to defend our empire. A quick check of the treasury shows that we don't even have enough money to steal,...er buy a tech. No one will sale us anything. If we could buy Monarchy, we could probably sell that to get at least Republic for it. He'sa likes being a despot but has heard that Monarchs can steal....er generate more taxes. He likes this. We also need horses, there is a spot of horses to the north. We might be able to get a settler there before a others. We will try. We will need 2 movement units to try and hold off invaders if we can. We set to work.

Some say that He'sa didn't even get past the door before money started disapearing from the treasury, but other rumors said that the nasty Russian wretch, forced pooor He'sa to send her 21 gold and a map of our lands, or she was going to break our peace treaaty and take what she wanted. Rumors abound that the Indians are building a thing called a Chapel. We will have to go steal....er, look at it when it is finished. Wonsan finished a cat and started a worker. We need to get wither the FP up or courthouses or both.

We move the new cat towards Inch'on as we need more protection on that border.
Whip library in Hyangsan. Seoul begins to build a settler.

450 BC The Indians begin building Leo's.
430 BC The Chinese begin Sistine's as well.
290 BC The Russians begin Cop's
170 BC The Japanese start Sistines.
150 The Russians begin JS Bach's
130 BC Get town built near the horse's. Buy Theology from Gandhi for 14gpt and WM. Get Monarchy from Gingus for Theology and 1gpt. The Chinese start Cop's
110 BC the Indians begin JS Bach's.
70 BC Gandhi actually tries to extort money. Sure, declare war and cancel our 14gpt deal. He doesn't.
10 AD Sistine is built, everyone cascades to Smith's!!!!

The troops burst into the room and grabed He'sa. Dragging him off to the lowest dungeons. Accused of gross theft of treasury funds. He'sa could not understand. As they passed by the windows, the poeple were still shouting He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon......

Having come into power, and wanting to get more offensive troops, He'sa Kon did a bad job. He built more cats but nary an archer. Knights are unning around so I started to hook up the iron. We need something with a litee more bite. I did more building. Our Treasury is now gaining 14gpt in spite of having 15gpt going out. Once we have enough money for 8 turns of payments we need to switch government. It was more of a builders turn, but we needed it. Started with only one city with more than 1 pop. We are in better shape now.


10 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp2_10AD.zip)

Hey that histogram doesn't look TOO bad at all (except for culture, eep!)

A couple of thoughts, most of which are due to being in Deity taking a variant approach, rather than any missed opportunities...

- Good turn, good number of workers, defenses seem appropriate, and good job settling up near only horse source.
- We have a good amount of cats too
- Nice defensive line to the west - get a dozen Hwatch'a and a few defenders on each mountaintop there and watch the AI carnage! (But boo, they couldn't give Hwatch'a ZOC?)
- Still in Despotism? Ah yes, debt load... but soon out
- Two archers, vs muskets? Ah yes, no iron or horses.
- Peaceful game, NO one at war, India in democracy?? Hold on to
your seat belts, if no change it's going to be a blitz tech pace
- If we aren't able to buy into Industrial Era until after everyone has Nationalism, we'll have missed our best chance in the whole game to catch up (via the "Slingshot" of sci civs) This must be a top goal - marketplaces more so than library here, except the latter helps to address our low low culture
- OMG the AI is pathetic at building roads - we don't have road to anyone's capital. In fact, we need some roadwork to the west, including getting roads up the mountain perches!
** We can sell an excess silk to Mongols once we hook up a road
to Erdenet. It might even be worth a "get out!" by sending a worker to do it ourselves
- I hope we have saltpeter for our Hwatch'a or the ugliness compounds
- Galley in Cheju? Will we be able to do anything at all with that before Magnetism?
- If we're not attacked in the next 32 rounds before Feudalism kicks in, the AI is being nice :P
- In fact... all the land is grabbed??? The AI's are about to burst,
expect someone to get into a big war. Hope that we're just observers :P What's kind of nice there is that every AI is almost surrounded by every other. Russia is in particular vulnerable to a dogpile / multi-front war. Maybe someday *we* will buy such a dogpile. For now... if cash-on-hand gets too high build more embassies
- In other words, our turns are going well, as well as can be hoped really, but the some total on this map is going to make this an exciting midgame

Marshall, good luck!! (cough, you'll need it)
Charis

PS And no, we're not skipping you, plan when you get a chance :p

A couple of thoughts......

1) I hooked up both spices. With four luxes and one spare we will need to trade away as much of these as we can for tech and any money we can get to buy tech. If you don trade them, you get more money from a civ that has several luxes already and markets.

2) I started a harbor to try and get some deals with the other end of the world. I would rather make those at the other end (China, America) stronger than those close to us. The AI tends to do worse at amphib invasion.

3) I got money extorted by both the Mongols and the Russians, Those I gave in and paid. The Chinese and the Indians tried as well, I turned them away. We had a gpt deal with India, so they were unlikely to declare war. I tired to see how much it would be to have either the Mongols or the Russians help us attack the other, but neither could be bought. Now that our income is building up, it might be possible to get something going in that direction, which might trim them down and allow us to get in a city or two.

I "got it" though it will be the 27th before i can play most likely... Wait or not is your decision. I'm agreeable to either.

Ok. I'm, ummmmmm, looking at it now. Have been for a while actually. Right now, I have NO idea what direction to go, which is unusual for me, as I usually have either one clear idea or multiple competing ones, but right now, im in blank stare mode :(.

So far I only have 2 conclusions. I don't like the way things are going, and I have no idea what to do about it. :lol: Any other tips from anyone at this point would be helpful/appreciated. I'm not waiting arround for them per se, but if you got any, throw them out heh.

I wouldn't build the galley in Cheju, a galley will be of zero help now. The harbor in Wonsan would help, but a marketplace would help more. And I wouldn't build archers either, many of our core cities are already flip risk, each of our cities should have at least 2 defenders, some already need 3 or 4 to suppress flip risk. The jungles have to be cleared so we need more workers. Priority should be given to clearing around Pyongyang, our 2nd best city. We probably should revolt to monarchy, I don't see how we will get to the republic anytime soon. Actually, I would change the minimum research to republic to make sure we eventually get it. The way the tech pace is going, I doubt our Hwach'a will be of any use, but you should have one city on catapult duty.

Idon't know what else to say, except that this being deity, if we don't improve our commerce drastically, we will never catch up.

Your comments seem right on to me. Feudalisim can't wait 30 more turns, they are liable to be at Electricity by then....... The only thing that CAN wait, to me, is an optional tech, so The Republic it is. We can revolt to Monarchy in 3 turns or so, and I intend to do so. I had allready pretty much decided that on my own anyhow.

Also agree on the Archers. I've allways hated archers anyhow, and they are even worse now that MDI is a better upgrade than Longbows. Iron will be hooked up on my turn, so hopefully we'll at least have access to MDI by then....... Unfortunately, it will take ages to get horses up for knights. I'm thinking of making some warriors simply for flip suppression and possible future upgrade.

If war doesn't break out soon, it looks hopeless to me. Dieity tech pace on a small map is a killer if they all go to Democracy and stay in it. It's much harder to keep up than on a large map where there are twice the AI, and so twice the chance to make catchup trades down the line. I'd LIKE to be able to get a war started on somone in North Korea, preferably the Russians since they have 3 cities up there, all smallish and unexpanded, but, we have ONE archer and spearmen..... Spearmen and cats vs fortified pikes/muskets isnt very good odds :lol:

I guess the problem is, I "think" I can catch us up in tech, at least to a large degree, THINK, but it would be pretty much at the expense of military, which is supposed to be the foccus of the scenareo.

PS: The more I think about it, the more I think Russia needs trimming. They are the other scientific civ, and our biggest threat to the Nationalisim tech whore hope. I'm not sure when I'll be done, because it seems to me that if we don't make progress durring my watch, we are hosed, so I'm going to take my time and think very hard on each turn.

Hey Marshall, good luck! It is a critical juncture, but don't take that bad, the whole bloody game feels like that! I don't think I've felt so behind the 8-ball, even on deity, than in here. So take your time, be bold, but don't feel too bad if we end up in even hotter waters.

I'm seeing more and more than on these higher diff games where you're struggling, that often an event that pushes you into action you didn't think you were quite ready for works out fine. It's due in no small degree to the AI's difficulty in waging war against human tacticians. Our early 'double war' with Russians and Mongols showed that. On paper, there's no way we should have lived. But in practice, we not only held out, we made them pay tech for peace! And even at the treaty signing, there were still much stronger than us. "Work" war well, have an objective, know when to push, and when to stop.

Along those lines I rather like the use of the phrase 'trimming' for the Russians. I let some air out of their sails earlier, and now it's time to trim their fat.

I agreed with all of Jaxom's comments. I'll also re-iterate that if we "do nothing" to the point where our free new-era tech is not a slingshot, we're toast. Keep that as a focus for *EACH* era advancement in the game. It's a must to get there while you can broker your new tech to a few other civs and get near-parity.

Needing flip suppression for our own core cities?? See now that's just plain ugly, a bad sign :P

Good luck, and take your time.
Charis

I'm still here. Had a death in the family and 2 job interviews pop up while in 30 minutes time the other day, so, I havent finished shoveling the dirt on top of us yet :(. I'll have the grave situation finished and posted by tomorrow.

Ouch Marshall!!!

Sorry to hear of your loss, and a particularly stressful holiday season. :sad:

I sure hope the New Year goes better for you! :hammer:

Charis

PS np on the Korean game, take your time

I'm alive. I know you were probably starting to wonder..... Cpu went dead on me. I'll get to the game in the next 24-48 if nothing else goes wrong. I think I must have accadentally found a way into the twilight zone or something lately.

> I'm alive. I know you were probably starting to wonder..... Cpu went dead on me.

OW!!! :eek:

You did read my mind, I was starting to wonder if there had been more ill-fated events (not in-game events, but RL)

I hope you're able to get that taken care of! 8-\

I look forward to the turn results, although I've been majorly busy with some other games and so have been fine with the wait.

Take care,
Charis

Did this one disappear?

Thanks for the bump Meldor, sorry about being slow to jump in here. I was wanting to give Marshall plenty of time in case the smackdown that RL was laying on him was the big issue, but since his last comment was:

Cpu went dead on me. I'll get to the game in the next 24-48 if nothing else goes wrong.

I have to at this point assume that something else has gone wrong. Time to issue a skip here. There's no frustration or anger in that, just need to keep it moving. If Marshall reports back in with a fixed CPU on a later set of turns he can get back in, but for now it looks like the 'active' roster/order is: Charis, Jaxom, Meldor.
Besides, this game was experience I was counting on having going into the deity warmonger trio now starting!

That means I'm up ( :eek: ). I recall after Meldor's turn - "Hmm, we're in decent shape, he did well, but NOW WHAT?! I'm glad it's not my turn!" :lol:

It'll take me a while to get re-acquainted, come up with a plan and execute, so don't expect anything tonight :P

Charis

PS - I hope all is well with you and your family Marshall. "RL" has taken its toll on several folks recently.

PPS The number of views suggests we have quite a few lurkers!? Hi! :hammer: There should be some good action coming up, leading to glorious bloodthirsty victory or the first "lost" deity SG! Stay tuned :goodjob:

First lost deity SG and I get to be a part of it! :love:
Thanks, especially after I got left out of the regent game. I know I am not the only one feeling snubbed on that one, looking at the lurker counts. :D :) :love:

The bloodthirsty leader Charis Kon surveyed the land and liked what he saw from the reign of Meldor, except of course, that his nation was at peace. He took careful stock of the situation, and made these decrees...

The people are lax and fat!! Charis Kon decrees a period of whipping over the next five years.

He expects the people to have a hissy fit about this, and vows to institute government reform (well, appointing himself king) at the end of the fifth season.

A total and utter lack of military units will not deter him!!! His very first decree as King will be... declaration of War! :hammer:
He knows who, but they do not.

(*After* reviewing his plans, he 'scrolls back' and sees the comments of Jaxom on this very turn, and finds that he came to identical conclusions. That's either very good for Charis, or very bad for Jaxom and the Korean people! :lol: )

Stay tuned... plans have an awkward way of falling apart when one meets the enemy...
Charis Kon

(PS eep, snubbed??? By no means! Sirian and I have wanted to hook up again for a 2-player SG for a loooong time, as the Cubans were so fun and it was disappointing to see my vacation disrupt the Environmentalists. He knows I love to see games where big handcuffs are in place, and with some Epics waiting the patch, this was a good time for him to start one)

-- EDIT - Prologue to next post, which went over the 15000 character limit

Here lies the tale of Charis Kon, bloodthirsty leader of the Korean people... a tale of two cities... of two wars...

It's 10AD and looking at the last turn log... the AI's have already
finished Bach's and started on Copernicus a few hundred years ago! :eek:
Pre-game one of the biggest hopes was to hang not TOO far behind toward
end of middle ages and to use Nationalist slingshot to catch up the rest,
then take it to them pre-Replaceable Parts with our glorious Hwatch'a.
That's going to be a major struggle at this point, let's take a closer look...
First thing of note, the save marked 10AD is actually 30AD :P

[0] 30AD - Eleven cities, cool! More than I thought. Russia, Japan and Mongols
have stakes in our backyard. We have a solid defensive line blocking off
access, excellent! (Well, as solid as spears can be. Our workers are very
active, chopping jungles. The biggest problem is that we're still in Despotism,
due to outgoing gpt payments. We're not religious, and lack Republic, so it
looks like a Monarchy->Democracy pathway for us. With no wonders, we're talking
"Internet" GA :P

Lots of changes to make in the queue, nothing weedy though.
- Ulsan with no barracks changes from archer to cat
- Inch'on with 60% corruption, library->courthouse
- Taejon, needing border expansion not happiness, temple->library
- Seoul, realizing age of archers is over, archer -> library
- Wonsan, at 80% corruption but not ultracorrupt, harbor->Courthouse
- Cheju, needing no ships but at our front cultural border, galley->temple
- The other builds, a mix of mktplace, library and courthouse, looks good

Hmm, still in despotism, any last rushing to do? Perhaps Inch'on in 4,
maybe Pyongsong in 5, Taejon in 4, Wonson immediately, Cheju in 5, Hyangson
a double whip now or once in 5, Ulsan in 1. That's 64% of our cities, maybe it's
lucky we have a few more turns in Depsotism - the jungle means for now very
small cities already stuck at zero growth.

Major whipping over next 5 turns then a revolt, decrees Charis Kon!! :hammer:

Oops, not 3 but 4 civs with stakes in our homeland. China has a tiny
city Tatung, on the corner of our island. This strikes me as a very
weak and vulnerable spot. China is infinitely far away by land, although
not far by sea. If we could take that city and kill any landing troops,
we could likely demand peace in about 10 turns and get something (plus a
city). I can barely look at the title "Warmongering Koreans" and take the
total builder path that cries out given our situation. If we coordinate all
our catapults there, it just MIGHT work?? There's no ongoing deals with them,
excellent. The only real downside... if they pull in an ally, MAJOR trouble.

Our iron should be hooked up in 9 turns, quicker if I send another worker.
It will take that long to array the forces. Hmmm, we should also time it that
we're coming off a revolt into Monarchy by then!

Prepare for WAR with China, decrees Charis Kon!! :hammer:
Declaration shall be expected the turn our revolt is due to finish!
The war is hoped to last 10 years. Follow that up with a few years to consolidate,
and that will do for a decent reign, to retire (for the time) in peace.
That's the PLAN - will a horde of Chinese *RIDERS* have other thoughts?!??!

[0] 30AD - Here we go. Whip Wonson twice. From 53 now 20 turns to courthouse.
Hrmm... *zero* extra spears, now that is a problem. Cheju and Seoul must each build one.

[1] 50 AD - Chinese start Bach's too. Short on happiness are they? They're clueless.
(His advisors remind him he plans to go to war against a superpower with 1 spear
and 1 archer free, and beg to know who truly is the clueless one here??)

Ulsan, hometown of this advisor, is whipped!

[2] 70 AD - The mighty churning of cats on the move... drown out the screams
of the :whipped: at Cheju!

[3] 90 AD - (IBT) Shanghai of China finishes Bach's?? Leader rush?? Russia and India
switch over toward Smiths.

[4] 110 AD - A Chinese archer comes out to stand on the VERY HILL we plan to take
for our assault. It is if he were waving a red flag saying "Kill ME, kill me FIRST,
oh bloodlusting Charis Kon!"

Inch'on is whipped, twice, in punishment for its great corruption. Courthouse due next turn!
Taejon gets a whip 20s towards it Library, now due in 10. Pyongsong feels neglected,
and takes a whipping for a temple due next turn.

[5] 130 AD - Iron now online, thanks to a swarm of workers who ran over to finish road.
An extra pair of silks are online, any takers? His advisor snickers, sire, we have
NO harbors! Charis Kon calls for his whip! Hyangson gets a brutal whipping for failing to
build a harbor. Cheju is about to be whipped, but it points to its 4spt output, and
the rod is spared. Courthouse due in 13 to help its 50% corruption.

The whip is forceably removed from the hands of Charis Kon, and the people revolt!
We draw... 7 turns. (Oh come on, be nice!! 8-| )

Charis Kon is enraged by this twist of fate, and decides to take it out on the
Chinese archer, as he will be totally unbothered by the worries of managing
domestic affairs for the next 7 turns!?


"These Koreans are pathetic, we should just send some riders in and wipe them out.
It would probably only take about 5. They have less than one defender per city,
and only one archer in the whole nation! What a joke... Do they think they are going
to throw stones at us and beat us?!", said Chinese Lt. Yuan, of the Tatung regiment.

"Yuan, what is that awful noise?" asked Li, his comrade in the barracks, as they
were playing Chinese Checkers.

They looked out their windows just a a great boulder came crashing through, killing
both men. A column of Korean catapults as far as the eye could see were cresting the
hill! Sgt. Xouching the Archer was helpless against the onslaught. He could see almost
no troops, just a lone spearmen and some cocky looking crossbowman. Something was
going down, and Xouching felt this day would be his last on the earth...


We declare war on China! Two shots knock the archer down to 1hp, and our archer
kills him with no dmg. We see Tatung is defended by 10 musket! j/k. A spear. Phew!

(IBT) Moscow completes Copernicus! :eek:

[6] 150 AD - Hrmm... three spears (at least), as we hurt them and destroy their
library. We kill one spear and bring up yet more cats.

[7] 170 AD - Must get the city before reinforcements arrive. We hurt them again,
and kill one spear. One left.

[8] 190 AD - With the withering combined arms assault of the Koreans, Tatung cannot stand!!

(Well, if you can call 6 cats, 1 archer and 2 spears 'combined arms') If only the
Chinese had used vet defenders...

(IBT) China completes Sistine at Nanking. (Wonder if I can demand Nanking as tribute?!)

[9] 210 AD - Our intrepid spear-slaying archer heals. (He never did promote)

(IBT) Kiev of Russia completes Smith's off the cascade. Magellan's next?
Aye, Bombay, right away. The cascade is dead, dead, dead. Shakespeare and Newton's left.

[10] 230 AD - zzz, all is peace and quiet.

[11] 250 AD - Ermm... remember I mentioned "Riders"? Here come *one*, from the west,
towards our Maginot line. :eek:
Anarchy ends next turn! Charis Kon barely noticed, as he was... quite preoccupied.

(IBT) The rider charges forward, a vet, and our spear is heard to say... "We're doomed!"
But right before impact, a volley of bricks is fired from our defensive catapult!
The rider doesn't even hurt our spear, then runs away redlined??? Woo!

[12] 260 AD - We're now a Monarchy! Er... no hard feelings, eh, Mao??
You're a Monarchy, we're a monarchy, let's just be happy together! Er, huh,
you're a Democracy? Good point. Well we could be one too if you would share that
knowledge with us!! No, eh? Hrm... Must we send more bricks upon your head??
(Darn rider is out of reach, actually) Let's talk, what will you pay us to call of
our dogs of war and spare your army of riders from the wrath of our catapults
(and ONE archer, who is hurt)?? You'll pay US 6gpt? Not bad. But how about a discount
on a tech instead? We really do want to get to Metallurgy! Engineering for 16gpt+15g,
which is a 6-7gpt discount? Charis Kon is about to kick the diplomat out of his
office and tell him no way, but his advisor pointed out that even with brick
bombardment, spears attacking 3-defense Riders were a losing proposition.

Charis Kon takes the concession of a nice discount for peace. His third war victory!
:hammer:

That makes for three furious nations, and the other two (India and Japan) annoyed.

Charis Kon looks over at that *ONE* Indian city in our territory, and has
"those thoughts" again. His advisor rolls his eyes, and prepares orders for the
redeployment of the catapults!

While he's at it, the domestic advisor takes a close look at all cities and their
production, now that we're in Monarchy. Our income is now 10gpt, not the greatest,
but that's with the new 16gpt cost and the old one of similar amount about to expire.
Building our economy is our greatest need by far, thinks the domestic advisor.

[13] 270 AD - Namp'o says enough delays, let's get a harbor! One due there in 12.

[14] 280 AD - Russians start Shakespeare's Theater.
[15] 290 AD - Just 'spear' defender(s) at Chittagong. Charis Kon smells blood!!
The catapults churn along!
[16] 300 AD - Churn, churn, workers create a road to lead the assault.
[17] 310 AD - Quiet turn, until midturn...

Mongols demand tribute! (TM+23g)

In doing so, Temujin waves a flag "Please lend me 23g for the privelege of
being *NEXT* to be kicked out of your territory, mighty Charis Kon!!"

With regard to war, WE will pick the timing, oh ye with face which turns the
stomachs of the fleas of a thousand camels! You may have the gold, for NOW.
But you *ARE* next!

[19] 330 AD - Russians have started Newton's. They're almost into the next era.
The road to Chittagong is ready. The sword has arrived. (Yes, THE sword, our
nations only sword, joining our nation's only archer. Together, our entire offensive
force!!) Naturally then...

We declare war on India!! :hammer:
(We are the *Warmongering* Koreans, after all, not the-Korean-who-bake-cookies!)

[20] 340 AD - The shelling starts, but is insufficient - an unhurt defender on top.
(IBT) An Indian galley LEAVES the city.
[21] 350 AD - The shelling continues, and with the sword now in place, we can go
He beats the top spear, and our archer beats the bottom one.

Chittagong is ours!!

[dance]

Feudalism is due in 11 - can we last that long, then go after Invention in peace??
(IBT) The galley returns and drops off a single 1-defense longbow??! :lol:

[22] 360 AD - We dispatch the longbow with our heroic archer.
(IBT) Cathy is jealous of Temujin. She wants 27g for tribute. While Charis Kon
seeks to eviscerate the envoy, our nervous domestic advisor, Chariscaredoutofwits,
writes her a check, and puts her name after Temujin's on "The List". Kon's list.
A list you do NOT want to be on!! Their longbow and horse outside our Northmost
city both retreat.

[23] 370 AD - IBT-Moscow completed Shakespeare's, China started Newton's.
[26] 400 AD - Out of the VERY same patch of fog that gave me a heart attack when
the Rider came zooming out, so now does the domestic advisor's heart LEAP on
seeing several JUMBO's from India charge out of the darkness!! :eek:
(Just three, still, that equals our entire offensive force)

Charis Kon picks up the phone. "Gandhiji, you ready to pay for peace??? Fully
one half our great nations' offensive units are ready to carve up your precious
jumbos!!" "You are?... Your whole treasury??? Well... smart man!!"

He calls in his negotiator, as Kon can't fathom how they cave in so easily!
He's even wearing a new Industrial Era hat!

India will give 106g, or a discount of Education for 21gpt. From other civs,
like Mongols or Japan they want more like 24gpt AND Silks. (Ah yes, that reminds
me, our harbor is now online!! We have TWO lux to sell!!!!)

The only question is - would waiting 6 turns for Feudalism be a disaster, or could
we extract another pound of flesh out of Gandhi?! Time out to look at the lux...
China wants BOTH and would give Republic almost straight up for them. Mongols
need silk but are broke. Japan needs spices, and lacks dyes which we have and are
using. Those two are almost worth Republic to them. Russia has no need of 'our stinking
luxuries'. India needs spices, and lacks both Wines and Dyes which we have. Hmmm....

You know what that suggests? With us a small civ, with small cities, we can sell our
only instances of lux and compensate if needed with slider or clowns, and pick up
a few more tech. Looking at Seoul we could sell one of our dyes with no adjustment
necessary, and by our slider, it would cost entertainers or 15gpt to move slider.

It's not Republic we want (Democracy soon enough), but let's look into Education
and Printing Press. To Mongols, Silks and Wines and just 3gpt+6g for Education.
If they go to war with us, it will hurt them. To China, our Spices and Silks and 8gpt
for Banking. Later an option for Japan to get our only Dyes and Spice, but already
we need to set slider to 10% and run one clown until a few more MP are made.

Back to the India issue... peace now or hold for 6 turns.
Right now the only decent deal is Printing Press for 150g. I'm not impressed Gandhi!

[27] 410 AD - Houston... Gandhi has sent three new "negotiators" do discuss terms
of peace. Guys on horseback with rifles. Cavalry. Vs Spears. Suddenly those peace
terms don't look so bad anymore.

Still, let's take our last licks. Sword vs Jumbo. 3 vs 3. But vet vs reg. We redline
but win. But now... it's clear we can't last 5 more turns vs cav. They will chew us up,
spit us out, and ride past us toward Seoul. The Maginot line needs an upgrade.
Sadly, it's time for peace. Still - one where Gandhi is paying for it, not me!

He'll pay about 120g, but I don't want gold that can be extorted, I want tech.
Since we want Democracy, Printing Press is more than just optional. He'll discount
it to 6gpt+38g. Asking price from Japan is 7gpt+239g. Ok, that's a good discount!

I'm curious, if we sold him our only spices, what would he give? Music Theory, Horses
and 7g. Horses??? We don't have horses??? Oh my goodness, THAT was why we founded
Taejon waaaaaay up north - it's the only supply of horses on our subcontinent.
I swap it's build to worker to be followed by harbor.

What else would he give? 26gpt for spice and dyes, or 13gpt for one. If I give both
dyes and 166g he'll give us Astronomy! Not bad! But... let's save that money for
Invention. Astronomy is not on the path to Metallurgy! (Looking around, Japan lacks
Democracy and Econ. They're the only laggers on tech, I hope they can continue so I
have a trading partner)

[28] 430 AD - Uh oh, the Mongols are up to something. A sword who a turn earlier stepped
into my land out of the city in our area, just moved forward AGAIN, and a caravel
is heading for the city. I'm going to swing a few extra troops and of course some cats
over there and to the Maginot line. If they can only wait about 4 more turns and I'll
have Pikes instead of spears. Remember, they're getting two lux from me and some small
cash. Do they know they're on "the list" ??

(IBT) He took a step BACK! Could I have flooded his target with troops? Seoul now is
looking kind of buff! Oh I know, our 'uber-archer' is seen coming up, in the distance!
440 IBT - The carvel went PAST the city, which still just has a spear defender!

[30] 450 AD - (IBT) Shanghai completed Newton's! Next up isn't til Suffrage.
Crud, the Mongol city just expanded borders. My perch on the mountain is now theirs.

[31] 460 AD - Finally, we research Feudalism and start Democracy.
Seoul starts our first Medieval Infantry (MDI) ! Just one will add about 50% to
our civ's offensive punch!!

We trade our only Dyes to India, with 10gpt+74g for Invention.
That leaves us still with Spices, which with our treasury isn't quite enough yet for
Gunpowder. We could sell him those Spices for 172g+8gpt, but our corrupt cities would
see unrecoverable happiness (with NO lux for our own people.) So we'll pass on that.
With the dye sale we must move the slider to 10% at a cost of 6gpt.
We burn some cash to upgrade a few pikes for the front lines (4).

We're just THREE techs from Metallurgy!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-460AD-Map.jpg

At this stage, it looks like peace for 15-20 years, and Wang Kon has not slept
in ages. It's also a time at the start of a tech research if the next leader has
other thoughts, and a time where pikes just upgraded need to migrate to the front
cities and Maginot line, to swap with spears there. So he will lay down the reigns of
power. He has won two (small) wars with an offensive force of one archer and one sword,
brought us halfway to our Hwatch'a, and brought two lux online via harbors which will
enable purchase of 2-3 new tech when current deals expire. The only problem of course,
is that the AI has progressed as well, some in or near Industrial Age. Our next leader
can choose between economic buildup or go for war vs Mongols or even Japan. Seeing as
we're totally strapped for cash, the former plan looks attractive even to the
bloodthirsty Kon. He should takes turns as he sees fit, likely in the 25-40 range, and
perhaps to get us to Metallurgy.

RBP2 Save Game 460AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-Koreans-460AD.zip)

Charis
Jaxom <-- UP
Meldor <-- On deck
(Marshall) <-- Captured by the Russians, but we'll see him free someday!!

Good luck!
Charis Kon

:worshp: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! :worshp:

It's really getting interesting, and somewhat scary :P

All of the FOUR wars to-date have been highly opportunistic, and their success almost completely due to that fact that the AI could not pull reinforcements to the battle scene within 10 turns. In other words, for a limited war, *LOCAL* concentration of forces, ie units within 10 turns of the battlefront, is what matters. That's why going after China which seemed suicidal, worked just fine. 6 cats + 2 spears + 1 archer and a sword or two if needed, vs 3 spears and 1 archer in the open. Same thing for India, where we had more firepower and they had less. That's also why I caved to tribute demands, we would have been sorely lacking where it counted.

The choice of next steps and targets, and timing, is an interesting one.

I think several civs are in the Industrial age, and Cathy may already have Nationalism, and definitely Cossacks. Japan is NOT there, and I forget if Mongols are.

We could try...
A) Peace until metallurgy, then take out North Korean foes
B) Prep for attack soon with Japan, target not one but their THREE cities in North Korea, and get a more significant peace treaty after capturing them. We could probably get two tech from such a slaughter. It would have the mixed blessing of putting Japan almost out of the game, make them trading partners sooner but for a shorter duration. It has the benefit too of giving us a free path to Russia in North Korea which would be our next target.
C) Prep for attack soon with Russia (!) This has several advantages: First they're the main power and could use some definite pruning. Second, their cities are still under size 6, lacking defensive bonus and ability to draft a rifle, so there's a narrow window where their defenders suck and would die to cats+swords. Third, we lock up the horses up North. We would also get probably two techs from a good beating up there, and would be very setup to hit Japan next for control of all of North Korea, and a tech or two. We would need to get an ROP with Japan to attack Russia. The big, BIG downside, is that Russia would be able to reach our "Maginot" line with COSSACKS before then 10 turns were up. At least we have Pikes now, not spears, but they will still die. The attack spot, btw, is always the desert spot between the mountains. They've not once attacked us on the mountains. Going this route we should build fortresses on this weak spot.
D) Prep for attack on Mongols, capturing their SE city near our capital, and seeking (?) to remove that nasty city that impinges on our 'line' defense and (gasp) which puts cultural pressure on Namp'o! (Imagine the horror of that flipping? In fact, we should get some more defenders there)

Ongoing treaties and lux deals might well decide on course A anyway. If so, sorry for tieing hands BUT catching up in tech is absoutely vital, and selling the lux is the best way to do that right now. If we can't sell Nationalism to anyone when we reach Industrial era we will have missed our key 'slingshot' and are in for a major uphill climb.

Whichever route, or fate of Nationalism, what is likely to happen in early industrial era post-Steam but pre-Replaceable parts, is that we will get a railnet going, a strong Rifle-based western 'line' with Hwatch'a support, and the ability with Cav and Hwatch'a to take control of all of North Korea in short order. With that done, a FP built up and two productive cores, we're in good shape. The advent of artillery then brings us to a phase where we cannot be beaten by any attack and can build like maniacs in our solid double core, preparing for the age of tanks. A slow tech pace between Rep Parts and Tanks would be nice :P

The people look to Dragon Jaxom to lead them to power, whatever his path! :hammer:

Charis

I looked at the map and had the same sthoughts as you did in 2).
I think we could do a quick strike against Japan, get at least two of their cities and get the other one and tech for peace. This will allow us to build a larger force to hit the 3 russian cities up there. If we can get a large enough force to take the 3 russian cities within the first 2-3 turns, before their Cossacks have time to really get warmed up, we could even get them to back down. I was suprised to see the AI cave with only taking 1 city, but I usually play on larger maps and I should have taken that into account. Then we could turn our glorious forces on the Mongols before we settle down and wait factories to kick in. Hitting Japan first would also have the bonus of opening up a land route to our horses.
So I vote for 2,3 & 4..........

Might I humbly suggest that when you go to war with Russia (or Mongolia, if Temujin sets the pace), that you ally with the other. There's no proviso against that in this game, that I can see. And having those two fight each other HAS to be good for you, no?

Can you imagine those two allying against you, though? YIKES!

Good luck and have fun!
Arathorn

> Might I humbly suggest that when you go to war with Russia
> (or Mongolia, if Temujin sets the pace), that you ally with the other.

> Can you imagine those two allying against you, though? YIKES!

Imagine it?? Well, yes!! See above under "We might be the first succession game to LOSE!"

:lol:

That would of course be brutal. We're lucky no one has allied against us yet. I wonder if it's part of the AI to look at strength and see if it needs an ally, or if they'll do that at the drop of a hat. If the AI compares full mil strength it wouldn't suggest "We better ally!" For the strat I've used with local superiority and limited war, an ally REALLY screws you! Both are now more prone to stay at war for at least 20, and you have no way of inflicting pain upon the ally. When it's large forces come up to your gates, it's time to beg.

Seeing a big Russia-Mongol slugfest would be great!
Hmmm... does that mean we should maybe spring for an embassy or two?? Charis Kon the Dragon has not been a great one on the Diplomatic front, with 4 civs furious and 3 annoyed, all due to his plotting.

As an aside, I read through the early half of the thread and noted that the Mongol war came about when I was on a mountain that became his territory, he told me to get out and I refused? Does the AI see this the same as a 'sneak attack' ? There has been no effect on our ability to use gpt, with any civ. It might impact a possible alliance, however. All other declarations were honorable.

Charis

Originally posted by Charis
........For the strat I've used with local superiority and limited war, an ally REALLY screws you! Both are now more prone to stay at war for at least 20, and you have no way of inflicting pain upon the ally. When it's large forces come up to your gates, it's time to beg.
........
Charis

IMO, this is exactly why it worked. Limited repsonse from those at the other end of the landmass. If we hit Russia or Mongolia, we had better be prepared to do damage within the first few turns and get peace quickly. Making an alliance at this point would be counterproductive. The AI is still going to target the weakest city, and unfortunately that would be us!
When we get to the point that we can do serious damage to on or the other (not just a few cities) then we can make an alliance with the other to cut down both of their armies.
Right now, I think we should concentrate on claim the rest of our territory in small managable bites. We can't afford a 20 turn war.

Got it. I'll finish up epic 21 before taking a look at it, so don't expect it before Monday.

Preturn: The Prince Epal looks at the state of the nation and shake his head. We have too few workers and those are happily chopping away in the jungle while we have cleared tiles begging to bring in more commerce. The economy is in a pitiful state and we are at least one era behind in technology. This is not a nation ready for war, I have to turn things around quickly. The core cities are changed to banks or marketplace. Micromanaging most cities recovers 6 gpt on the 7 gpt deficit. Here we go.


470 AD Japan offers their WM for 80 golds, we are so far behind in mapping? Geez, what was going on before my shift? China renegociates peace for free, injecting 13gpt more in the economy.

480 AD Some spears are upgraded to pikes, shuffles on the Maginot line.

490 AD ...
500 AD ...
510 AD ...
520 AD ...
530 AD :eek: Disease strikes Seoul.
540 AD ...

550 AD Not much happening, long builds. Pusan and Wonsan spit out workers. Russia is moving troops near our border, looks like Catherine wants a piece of Korea.

560 AD ...
570 AD ...

580 AD The first bank is built in Pyongyang.

590 AD ...
600 AD Spices+53g+7gpt yields gunpowder from India. Silks+last spices+50g+4gpt and we learn Chinese chemistry. We have 2 saltpeters but none connected.

610 AD ...
620 AD ...
630 AD ...
640 AD ...
650 AD ...
660 AD Our last dyes+17gpt is enough to convince Gandhi to teach us how to work the metal, our Hwach'a are available! Gandhi also improve our knowleged of the stars for the small price of 14gpt+our last wines. Sorry for making those deals on my last turn, but I felt they were important enough to make.



The Prince Epal looks at the state of the nation and nods. During his tenure, income was tripled thanks to the many roads, banks and marketplaces built. The scientific community is singing his praise for he acquired knowledge about 5 new technology. The city mayors can't thank him enough for increasing the public work force by 33%. He thinks to himself "This is all good and well. With democracy coming around soon and the strong support of the business, scientific and municipal communities, it will be a simple matter to overthrow the King Kong. Hey I might even be able to convince He'sa Kong to put the King to trial for crime against the nation! Hmmm, I have to tell my secretary to send my regards to He'sa, with a pouch of a few hundred golds."

Here is the save at the end of 660 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp2_ad660.zip)

Charis the Dragon Kong hears but one line...

"[Our powerful might] convinces Gandhi to teach us how to work the metal, our Hwach'a are available! " :rocket:

:hammer:

He is pleased over the tripling of income, it will allow us to mass upgrade to Hwatch'a and enable us to fight one, two, or three glorious wars!!! This is after all "Asian Rumble!" :hammer:

Charis, his lowly assistant, was thought to be heard to mutter "Thank goodness SOMEONE is finally fixing the economy and building some workers instead of just rock-flingers!! (Hmmm, wait, isn't triple a deficit of 6gpt, an 18gpt deficit?) It sounds like Prince Epal was just what the country needed!! :goodjob: "

The Generals of the Dragon defend him, saying that pointy stick research garnered four techs, and that it was purely the period of anarchy that led to such chaos and war (for why else would any sane person carry out a war against a superior foe during anarchy?!), and that the benevolent Dragon led the people from cruel Despotic rule (well, his) to a efficient (well, autocratic) Monarchy, and realized the power of foreign trade via a harbor.

The people of Korea all look forward to the reign of Hes'a Kon, who will have a tough task (choice between??) getting to Industrial era in time to broker our free tech (crucial!), booting
Japan and Russia out of North Korea, building up the economy, and moving us toward (into?) a new era! :egypt:

Good luck!
Charis

I see it but will get LK39 out of the way first. This one will require much thought and contemplation by He'sa before he steps up.

After slipping out of his San Quentin vacation home, He'sa Kon once more talks his way into power in the glorious empire known as Korea. He looks over the map an determines that he wants to take over those 3 nice Japanese cites to the north. However, great Kon that he is, even he knows that he will not be able to talk pikes into defending against spears in the open.

He also knows that we must get to the next age in a hurry or we will be left behind for good. Everyone else is sporting Cavalry and we have......Swordsmen! Maybe the Japanese haven't upgraded the spears in the north yet. He sets to planning.

First we order that the workers will road the defensive line and put in fortresses. This will upgrade our defenses from paper cutouts to paper cutouts in clay pots. As improvements complete he orders a round of mustket building to switch from paper to cardboard.

Next we start building horsemen and Hwatch'a. He'sa had conned,..er, talked some people into moving into the far north, isolated from the rest to raise horses. This was now paying off. Next He'sa talked the Indians into giving him Chivalry for some spices and gold. This allowed He'sa to start building a few Knights.

He'sa noticed that everyone had Nationalism, and fearing an MPP that could be a death knell for Korea, he saved enough cash to get embassies in every capital that was lacking. This would also allow him to call for help if he needed to. He noted that things like factories were building.

He'sa finally got enough forces to attack the Japanese....2 Cats, 2 Hwatch'a, 2 Swords, 2 Horsemen, and 3 Knights and 2 muskets. War has declared and we advance.

Japanese Cav arrive on Russian rails!!!! The defenses hold but He'sa calls the Mongols and talks them into helping kill about 7 or so Cav that will be able to attack this turn. We then watch as he kills off all of them.

The knights and horsemen moved towards the second Japanese city and the rest moved for the closest one. When we arrived at the before we got to the closest town a spear stepped out to go pillage. We pulled next to and and found....rilfes! The cats and Hwatch'a fired doing 1HP of damage on the rifle. One sword attacked and took the rifle down to 1HP before dying. The second sword took out a spear, leaving the 1hp rifle. Not wanting to watch it heal, we attack with a musket and win! I raze the city and bring up a settler.

Meanwhile the knights and horses attack the next town. All but one retreats and we kill one rifle with out losing a unit. Everyone retreats to heal. The troops from the other city arrive and once healed all reach the hilltop. The bombardment was a rousing success, unfortunately it took out the temple, 1 pop point and only 1 hp on the remaining rifle. A knight attacks and takes it out, again we raze the city. All of the units converge on the last Japanese city and we raze it as well.

Japan will now talk to us, but we have 2 turns remaining on our alliance with the Mongols. We start moving the offensive units towards our main area with thoughts of maybe going after another city. The Japanese have other thoughts. They land two Cav next to a city with only a single spear. The units in the North can not reach the area for 3 more turns. We then do the Curly Shuffle and get 3 defenders in the city. However with a move of three they can reach a second city as well. It only has one spear and I can only get one more there. They Japanese Cav attack the second city and the first spear kills a Cav! The city is saved even though the second cav takes out the second spear. We move in re-enforcements and watch the injured Cav. Unfortunately the Japanese land 6 more Cav. The wind whistles through our defense's and He'sa discovers the comfort of Depends(TM). He hastely calls up the Mongols and cancels the alliance.

He then calls the Japanese and they agree not to totally destroy us, give us Physics, Republic, Military Tradition, and Economics for all our gold and a bunch more per turn (64gpt). Concidering the fact that He'sa couldn't talk anyone into giving us just Physics for ~68gpt, he thought it pretty good. The people were yelling He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon, even in the Japanese capital. Rumors that the Japnese ruler was later beheaded for this foolishness are totally unfounded.

The Japanese Cav then turned to the nearby Mongol city and were last seen attacking it.

Upon returning to the Korean Capital he could hear the people again cheering his name. However, upon entering the palace, his cousin Charis Kon had sieze power yet again. As He'sa was being taken back to his vacation home he could still hear the people yelling....He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon........

Notes: I razed and replaced all three Japanese cities to the north. It's just us and the Russians now. If we hurry we can get good odds with Cav against Infantry. Russia completed ToE, China finished US. Both quickly, and they finished off the Indians between the two of them. No word of Hoover's even starting. The FP is building in In'Chon. I thought it should have been built ages ago, but it is going on now and can either complete of be a pre-build. I did build a lot of infrastructure as well and we have banks coming. I killed off A cav, a spear and 5 rifles while losing only 1 spear and 1 sword, I have therefore left you with the greatest Army the Koreans have eveer Fielded, 1 MDI, 2 Horsemen, 3 Swords, 4 Knights and one Cav building. Don't spend them all in one place.

Also I have not adjusted the lux slider for the lack of war. Good luck.

RPB2 1100 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp2_ad1100.zip)

Oh yes, and we aquired 7 new Japanese slaves.

Here are pictures of the new "Line of Defiance"

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RPB2Pic1.JPG

And the new north:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RPB2Pic2.JPG

I would suggest getting some Cav asap and hitting the Mongols. The Russians have Infantry, and the Mongols aren't there yet. Maybe we can get the techs to go industrial!

Good turn He'sa Kon, you did receive some bags with shiny round things inside, right?

It is amazing how much we (excluding the person writing this) have accomplish with so little offensive power. Is this a deity game? It must be, considering how backward we are.

I say we take all those mounted warriors and send them screaming on Russia cities! (Just kidding)

Meldor wrote: If we hit Russia or Mongolia, we had better be prepared to do damage within the first few turns and get peace quickly.

A good plan, but you have it backward. The thing is to get into war and let the enemy troops come dying into our land where we choose the battle site. When the enemy is ready to talk peace, then you send all you have on whatever objective was desired and make peace before the enemy can turn around.

Wowsa He'sa!!!

That was nail-biting reading!

> He looks over the map an determines that he wants to take
> over those 3 nice Japanese cites to the north.

:hammer:

Swords vs Cav. That's even.

> First we order that the workers will road the defensive line and
> put in fortresses. This will upgrade our defenses from paper
> cutouts to paper cutouts in clay pots.

I LOVE the new pictures of the defensive line. Can you believe the mongol city near it has not expanded its borders?! It's just sad that our foes have cav, and if we fall off a mountain, and enemy infantry will take it up.

> Next we start building horsemen and Hwatch'a.

Charis Kon, from exile, is jealous of those who wield the glorious dragon fire cannon! He vows to return soon to power!

> He'sa noticed that everyone had Nationalism, and fearing an
> MPP that could be a death knell for Korea

:eek:

Doh!!! They're just going too FAST! That's our third slingshot we missed out on, and it might be much worse news than we think.
Actually, with ToE gone, we've missed our fourth. There's just one left, and it's a smaller shot.

> He'sa finally got enough forces to attack the Japanese....
> 2 Cats, 2 Hwatch'a, 2 Swords, 2 Horsemen, and 3 Knights and
> 2 muskets. War has declared and we advance.

To Charis Kon this seems like enough firepower to wipe out every foe on the planet, a veritable legion of rumbling power! (Of course, he has no concept of rifles or cossacks or infantry)

> Japanese Cav arrive on Russian rails!!!! The defenses hold but
> He'sa calls the Mongols and talks them into helping kill about 7

oh MY! The nail biting went into hyperdrive here! Rails???!!
But, but... we're just at Chivalry!

> The knights and horsemen moved towards the second city
> We pulled next to and and found....rifles!
:cry:

> Japan will now talk to us, but we have 2 turns remaining on our
> alliance with the Mongols.
> They land two Cav next to a city with only a single spear.

What an amazing defensive dance! Good job!
We're lucky that it took them 18 turns to get there. Imagine if that happened on turn 3, and again on 8 and 13? That's my fear about alliances.

> He then calls the Japanese and they agree not to totally
> destroy us, give us Physics, Republic, Military Tradition, and
> Economics for all our gold and a bunch more per turn (64gpt).
> Concidering the fact that He'sa couldn't talk anyone into giving
> us just Physics for ~68gpt, he thought it pretty good.

Glad you checked on Physics. Drats!! Those are good techs, but mostly optional, and we're short two (?) techs to the next age and nationalism.

> Upon returning to the Korean Capital he could hear the people
> again cheering his name. However, upon entering the palace,
> his cousin Charis Kon had sieze power yet again.

:naughty:

He just had to get his hands on Hwatch'a, and besides, we now have Mil Tradition :hammer:

> It's just us and the Russians now. If we hurry we can get good
> odds with Cav against Infantry. Russia completed ToE, China
> finished US. Both quickly, and they finished off the Indians
> between the two of them.

:eek:

They rolled over and eliminated two foes much more powerful than we? Eep!

> I have therefore left you with the greatest Army the Koreans
> have eveer Fielded, 1 MDI, 2 Horsemen, 3 Swords, 4 Knights
> and one Cav building. Don't spend them all in one place.

That indeed *dwarves* any army Charis Kon has fielded, by a factor of about four! Look out Moscow!

>Jaxom:: It is amazing how much we (excluding the person
> writing this) have accomplish with so little offensive power. Is
> this a deity game? It must be, considering how backward we are.

That's truly been the theme of this game. I feel like the guy who beats national champion ping pong players using an ordinary clipboard instead of a paddle!

But I must say, I don't ever recall being *this* far behind in tech in deity at this stage in the game (at least with a Sci civ). And if I did I can assure you I had no thoughts of offensive war.

We could honker down and relax if only those Russian cities in North Korea were ours. The game is at least a moral victory if we can unite the two Koreas, even if... we follow the ways of Inida this game :P

I look back in the thread start for victory conditions and our parameters --
> "Koreans mindset is quite territorial, in a gang-like world where
> turf and rumbles are everything."
i.e... if and when "our" territory, North and South Korea right up
to our carved-in-stone borderline to the west, we'll have our turf. No victory could really be considered without booting Russia.

Our only hope left for a Golden Age (oh ya, maybe that's why I don't remember being this far behind) seems to be the Internet, unless we get wildly lucky capturing wonders.

I'm surprised that there was no listed victory condition! Dare we even think about such a thing? Or would the folly and arrogance of doing so lead to immediate destruction? Our paths over the rest of the epoch look a little different for conquest vs space race.

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Meldor wrote: If we hit Russia or Mongolia, we had better be
> prepared to do damage within the first few turns and get
> peace quickly.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jaxom replied:
> A good plan, but you have it backward. The thing is to get into
> war and let the enemy troops come dying into our land where
> we choose the battle site. When the enemy is ready to talk
> peace, then you send all you have on whatever objective was
> desired and make peace before the enemy can turn around.

In EVERY war to date, if we did not take peace on the turn we did, we would have seen brutal carnage upon our cities. The thought of being locked in scares me. The thought of a Mongol vs Russia war is of course thrilling (unless.... omg.... someone wins??)

If our next war is Russia, with them in our North core, I don't see waiting around absorbing damage from cavs as a great option. Vs Mongols, we have a greater chance of holding the line, then when they're gassed or distracted, raze the border town.

While we've had juicy, ripe, low-hanging fruit to pick for offensive targets, we have done well with these short wars. It would be almost unthinkable to rush forward with as little, outside our borders and supply line, and expect to win. Only interior targets can go the quick route. And unfortunately, with their rails and cav, they will be ready to attack on turn 1 of a war, not turn 11.

Actually, victory condition is important. If space race, would we ever choose to go to war with Mongols? If they expand into "our" borders, they will get a 'screw you' to an order to move and we'll have war, but otherwise, Russia is our only "must" fight. But if going for conquest, everyone must die.

Frankly... we **really** need two things before our next war can be considered: Rifles, and Rails. With a rail network anyone landing behind us gets squashed like a bug. Without it, we could lose two cities in one turn when a pair of cav ships land. Without rifles, we just can't hold the line vs cav. We'll need many more than we have now to hold the line anyway :P

Looking at the map, holy cow, Russia's cities are like size *22* in our core??? That's about 16 drafted infantry to beat down. It's going to be ugly!! If we have rifles covering a stack of about three dozen Hwatch'a, there's a chance. But with the army we have now... ouch.

So - my current thought is that the exiled one might see his first peaceful reign (unless provoked of course, or unless an opportunity arises like Russia and Mongols going to war!) A building era getting us rails and rifles, with an eye toward a campaign against the 3 russian cities, or whatever future leaders desire.

Feedback on these thoughts, and especially on victory condition, would be helpful!

Charis

Originally posted by Charis
Glad you checked on Physics. Drats!! Those are good techs, but mostly optional, and we're short two (?) techs to the next age and nationalism.

I wanted to get Physics before the end of the war, I was prepared to even go longer at war until the Japanese landed. If I could have gotten Physics first, I might have gotten us into the next age, but time was not with me.

I was shocked at how far we were behind. The only thing I can see that really hurt was the start in the middle of all that jungle. Most of it is gone now, but the extra worker turns and lack of usable tiles may have hurt. Also, I was suprised to see the FP hadn't been built. That may have hurt just as bad. But, I have been in worse games and managed to find a way. As long as the AIs don't smell blood or we don't chum the waters too bad, we may yet see it through.

Originally posted by Charis
They rolled over and eliminated two foes much more powerful than we? Eep!
Yes, ToE and US happened so fast they had to be leader built. I got the message that they were being built and then two turns later they finished. Russia, must have gone after Infantry inswtead of the Hoovers path, so there is a remote chance in warmer places we could smell the tech before it completes.

Originally posted by Charis
But I must say, I don't ever recall being *this* far behind in tech in deity at this stage in the game (at least with a Sci civ). And if I did I can assure you I had no thoughts of offensive war.

I have been, unfortunately all of the victory options are enabled so we will have to raze the city that builds the UN and any capital that dares come close to building the ship.

Originally posted by Charis
We could honker down and relax if only those Russian cities in North Korea were ours. The game is at least a moral victory if we can unite the two Koreas, even if... we follow the ways of Inida this game :P
Will the Clan of the Dragon consider anything short of conquest or at least domination?

Originally posted by Charis
If our next war is Russia, with them in our North core, I don't see waiting around absorbing damage from cavs as a great option. Vs Mongols, we have a greater chance of holding the line, then when they're gassed or distracted, raze the border town.
I think the Mongols are the next target. You might even want to wake up the troops and go after the city inside our lands before the Japnese get it. The Mongols are behind in tech. They do not have Infantry yet and this may be the only none painfull use of our Cav we get. Hopefully, the odd gods of the RnG will continue to smile upon us. I can not believe the run of luck we have had in our wars. Going two Cav verses two spears with a single spear left with 1 HP is how close we came to losing one core city.

We could get two quick cities form the Mongols (assuming we get the one before Japan, they are obviously not doing well against Japan as the Japanese had 7 extra Cav to send on a long bost trip to get at us. I did see a Mongol Cav army run by, but it only had one Cav in it.

Originally posted by Charis
Frankly... we **really** need two things before our next war can be considered: Rifles, and Rails. With a rail network anyone landing behind us gets squashed like a bug. Without it, we could lose two cities in one turn when a pair of cav ships land. Without rifles, we just can't hold the line vs cav. We'll need many more than we have now to hold the line anyway :P


Is the Charis Kon the Dragon talking here, he who whipped two mighty Civs with sticks and string? The fortresses will make the Muskets rifle wanta-bes anyway, and if Japan keeps them busy at the other end we may be able to hold those two cities and maybe a third long enough to make him call uncle.

Then we can get rifles and rails for the fight we are going to have with Russia.

Originally posted by Charis
So - my current thought is that the exiled one might see his first peaceful reign (unless provoked of course, or unless an opportunity arises like Russia and Mongols going to war!) A building era getting us rails and rifles, with an eye toward a campaign against the 3 russian cities, or whatever future leaders desire.

The only way we can hope to maybe get Hoovers is to get the Mongols to give us the last two techs for the next age. With the freebie, and max science we might be able to time snagging Hoovers IF we can get Russia and China fighting amongst themselves. I don't know how we can do it without getting into it ourselves.

Let Charis Kon lead us against the Mongol hoard and bring us into the new age! There is yet time for bold men to lead us. Remember the Dragon Clan motto!

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Seeing how successful were the previous wars of opportunities, I have to agree with Meldor. Now is the time to take it to Genghis and reclaim the mountain that is rightfully ours. Destroy the Mongol city near the line and put a city SE of the mountain, that will make the line unbreakable if we can get to infantry before Russia rolls overs us.

As for victory, it would be fitting to "steal" a diplomatic victory and if the vote proves inconclusive, run away in a space ship. If we get a leader, he should be saved until we can build the UN. Another option is to make a race between conquest, promoted by the Kong clan, and the space ship, promoted by the Prince Epal.

Oh MY! You two are *definitely* the right ones to be playing this game with. I find my jaw dropping that Charis Kon, master of the David vs Goliath school of warfare, is being told by all other players to 'be more aggressive' :hammer:

The Kon bows to your unmitigated bloodthirstiness. If the people want the Dragon, Charis Kon cannot say no!

:ar15:

It's a fascinating idea by Jaxom to keep all the victory conditions open with different 'thematic proponents'. Hes'a Kon mentioned conquest as most fitting. Charis Kon basically wants all other civs to 'bow', and cry Uncle. Diplomatic and Domination both fit his king of the hill mentality. Prince Epal proposes a lucrative space launch. If we don't go at cross-odds with each other, it will be interesting to see which ends up being the path of victory (cough, sputter, if there is a victory) That is, I won't play "passive" just to get Diplomacy, and will continue to press opportunistic or on-going wars. The Mongol encroachment of our line certainly is not crying Uncle, nor are Russian cities.

The mother-of-all best scenarios runs something like we fight Mongols and catch them infantry-less, with their pants down, and Russia sees their weakness and attacks THEM. We get peace-tributed into the next age, Russia and Mongols stalemate and while Russia is still busy we turn right around and boot her out of North Korea, gaining a leader to rush our FP there. The whole world dogpiles on Russia while we have a breather to build up our new core and catch up on tech, and build Hoover!! (I can dream can't I?!)

Charis

hey! He'sa Kon, what happened to democracy? When I gave back the game, it was 20 turns away, now we research magnetism and still don't have democracy? Something smells fishy here!

I am guilty of applying the veto stamp to that :hammer:

Charis Kon left the keys to the cabinet, it was secured in, where He'sa Kon could get at them (not withstanding the titanium safe they were in, nor the vault that held the safe). If he didn't want me to look he wouldn't have left it there, right?

The veto was based on the fact that we wouldn't be able to revolt to democracy anytime soon, and the chance to recude the price of Physics was needed. Unfortunately, I took this path 3 turns too late for us to get it and get Mag and ToG. I thought it would be made up by getting democracy out of the settlement but it was not to be so. In hindsight it may have been weed, but in foresight, it look like genius. If I had only had a couple more turns to make the Japanese sweat. If Charis Kon can bring the Mongrel Dogs to the table we should be able to pick up Demo in the deal.

One more note I see that got left out of my summary: I think we may have taken a rep hit when India was taken out. I think we still had an ongoing deal with them at the time of their demise. I didn't think too look until it was too late, and after they died our gpt went up. Unfortunately there was nothing we could have done to stop them from devouring India. This may have also contributed to my not being able to get a deal for physics prior to peace with Japan. It couldn't have been a big hit though as Japan di except gpt in peace.

[EDIT] Correct lousy grammer....

The Dragon Kon snarls at the research toward a representative government!! It it were not for the bad effect on the people, he would return to an autocracy! :hammer:

His advisors were also subjected to rants about 'useless optional techs, get me to the next age!!' but they didn't understand what he meant. All in all, his griping is not found to be factually based, but wondering how he will fair in a fifth paper cutout 'dragon war'??

Regarding our rep... the Dragon not cares one whit about what the dogs who will someday bow before him think about him. (He does however, care if it loses ability to buy with gpt, which may be brutal). He sees nothing wrong with our behaviour when India is too weak and puny to defend itself, and would do the same. In fact, I think is M.O. would be to walk right up on 'our' mountain and refuse to leave when told to go. We've been hit with a minimum of two such refusals-to-leave. They must be treated as not as bad as sneak attacks, because I really haven't noticed any ill effects to our rep from that. The major downside is that the enemy gets first strike. If it makes more tactical sense to honorably declare, to get first strike, he will do that instead.

I have two other games I'm behind on and need to finish asap, so there's a possibility of a short delay before my turn here. But believe me, it's not forgotten! :P

Charis Kon

How did switching from democracy reduce the price on Physics? The single scientist research on democracy was not taking any gpt away and research cost more than the golds to pay for it. Definately weed. I will take this as a conspiracy by the Kon clan to keep the people from voting for a true leader, namely Prince Epal. Now that we have the Republic, there is no point in getting democracy, but we should revolt during Charis turn, hopefully he can write this in character. :)

BTW, I want my gold bags back. ;)

The lone scientist was the one I put to work of physics. You do get partial credit for how far you are along in research when you go to buy a tech. Worst case, if I could have gtten it researched in time (my bad) it would have gotten us inot the next age. I would have taken ToE and Mag (and maybe Mil Tr) for the peace instead of picking up the deadends. If you had started on Physics on your turn, then we most likely would have been in the new age. If we if we get those techs from the mongrels and they still don't have nationalism by that time, we can sell it to them or maybe swap it for another tech.

The only weed I see in the switch to Physics is the fact that I missed it by not switching early enough. Hooefully it won't cost us the game.

When my turn started, we could research democracy, gunpowder or astronomy so democracy was the only reasonable choice. You could set research on physics only because of the 2 techs I acquired on my last turn. Partial credit is obtained by how many beakers you have accumulated, not how many turns left. A single scientist run on physics for 39 turns will only cut about 30 golds from the price of physics. On deity, a single gold buys more than one beaker, even at last civ price so plain research is not efficient unless you want to avoid giving the AI more golds.

In any case, I prefer the Republic and would have trade for it if we were not so far behind. There is no way we can win if we stay in monarchy, we need the increase cash flow and we need it now.

Just a bump...

I'm exhausted from the Defiant Nationalist game. It was BRUTAL, took all afternoon, but... we're still in it!? It's encouraging for this game, which has got promoted out of 'most dire SG on the planet' to second. :P

'still got it, will get to it sometime this weekend'
Charis

A short set of turns, not so much for time (I renewed my energy since the last post :P),
but because things moved quickly (you'll see). :p

Charis Kon, the Dragon, knew no end to his delight that our civilization had
unleashed the FURY of the Hwatch'a! Despite his age, and thoughts that he needed
to calm down some, the people actually refused, begging him to continue to push
hard to raise our nation to even greater heights!

The pundits had debated several issues in recent days. We should get the techs to
bring us to a new era... we should get cav and hit the Mongols... we should switch
to Republic...

Let's take a look. Oh MY look at that Russian empire!! Sheesh! Like a chihuahua! What
does our offense look like? 4 Knight, 2 horse, 1 MDI, 9 cats and just 2 Hwatch'a. (cough)
Inch'on is empty.

[0] 1100 AD - Before anything else, I shuffle units to get a defender in Inch'on.
Well any thoughts of Russia right now are right OUT! Let's see about the
Mongols... The Japanese cav may take that city next turn! Two knights are shifted over
to that area. Seoul swaps from Univ to cav. We won't be doing any of own research until
the Modern Era. Tatung, size 3 with income 2, is building a marketplace? Switch to Hwatch'a.
Namp'o from Univ to cav. Cheju to Hwatch'a. Pyongsong to Hwatch'a. (The *GLORY* that is
the uniqueness of the Dragon Cannon shall NOT be denied!!) Manp'o to Library for culture.

(IBT) Indeed, before we could even get there, Tsetserleg of the Mongols falls to Japan.
So much for the 'easy punch' on Mongols. Then the Russians start Hoover. 8-|

[1] 1110 AD - Charis Kon the Dragon is beside himself. So far behind, in need of true
growth, and no good war option. So he goes about creating one. What's the *one*
easy city now in our territory. Who has 1hp units in our land? What would they do
if we *COMMANDED* them to leave? Do they care they owe us 67gpt for peace??!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-JapanWar-1110ad.jpg

In one swift move, the Dragon Kon increases our national income tenfold!
We take out the hurt field cavs first, then beat two in the city while our
cavs turn red. The city yet stands.

(IBT) Nuthin! Cool! The Chinese start Hoover, so I hope they and Russia go at it!

[2] 1120 AD - The day that Charis Kon has waited for all his life arrives!! His fingers
caress the Hwatch'a as it fires for the first time on a real enemy!
SCORE!!!! It destroys the barracks at Tsetserleg! Our first cav from Namp'o arrives
on the scene, rdy to attack next turn. Our knights town to heal. No attacks this turn.
The inadvertent rep hit vs India might kill us, btw. I think we have enough gpt but
not enough cash for Theory of Grav. China disdains our credit. (IBT) Nada.

[3] 1130 AD - Now several Hwatch'a are onhand to unleash their fury on Tsetserleg!
While they miss the defenders run for cover, and our elite knight attacks.
No leader (I dearly want one for FP), but there was just one cav defender left,
and we capture the city. The Mongols are evicted from our core, and we didn't even
have to fight them! We set up a 'killing zone' next to the city, to encourage
more Japanese to land there and fight.

As a bonus, having war declared ON us is like an extra luxury for the people as
far as happiness!! Such is life under the realm of Dragon Kon.

The people go back and check the records regarding govt changes, and find something
most unusual. The only swap we've had so far was under the reign of Charis Kon, who
in fact prosecuted a war during the ensuing Anarchy! "Production be damned!" he
cried, "I have more than enough units!"

Wouldn't ya know it... the Dragon feels it's time for martial law, Anarchy ensues!
Five turns, says the advisor. (Btw, the big gold payments to Japan kept a revolt from
even being considered. Now we're a flat +0 gpt for the anarchy. Was +101 with Monarchy)

[4] 1140 AD - We fortify, shining our defiant eyes to the nation of the Rising Sun.
[5] 1150 AD - Two Japanese ships seen sailing from the East.
[6] 1160 AD - Watching...
(IBT) The ships reverse course and land ONE cav next to Tatung?
Pyongyang hit with disease. Bah, we're cutting down its LAST jungle, too.
[7] 1170 AD - We hurl a stream of rocks on its head, then attack with an elite Knight,
easily defeating him. I hope they don't go way up north for a landing.
(IBT) Hmmm, they do head northward. Better follow them with our knights.

[8] 1180AD - We're now a Republic. Income was +101, what is it now? +164gpt!
At present we need 0% lux! That means our MP really was doing nothing. Great call
on Republic! (unless end of war makes the people too unhappy :P )
Actually, 20% lux here is the breakeven point, same income as Monarchy would be.
We have a settler headed up north, btw.

With their ships moving away, I'm not sure how much more pain we'll give them. Will
they talk? Yes! Charis the Dragon Kon is crafty. He knows that at the peace table
leaders will consider gpt deals when they would'nt otherwise! The crafty dragon
snags ToG and Magnetism for WM+64gpt, rocketing us into the MODERN AGE!
We can stay happy without lux slider, using just one extra specialist. Unfortunately
for Chittagong, that means 1 spt instead of 2, as it works towards its courthouse.

We got Nationalism, quite useful. Let's see what the other civs have...
*ALL* have Steam, Medicine and the govts Democracy and Communism. Nationalism indeed,
but no slingshot. Our scientist goes on Democracy, as it's one we can easily let go
40 and not need. We'll want to buy Steam and others as soon as we can afford.

Pike to Rifle is 100g, too much for now. I upgrade 4-5 muskets to rifles for our
front line, however.

[9] 1190 and [10] 1200 - A few more upgrades and consolidation.

There is a settler up North. He can settle one square NE (where I intended), or
one square North (more overlap but interesting in that it forms a 'canal' site).
Or it not safe, bring him home :P There's actually a jungle spot not far from Seoul
that would be low corruption, and is unused land. Perhaps 4 tiles due NW of Seoul.
The other ones near are can be considered too. Near there are 3 workers, have them
work according to any decision on a new first ring city. I took a few cities off military
back onto econ, but change anything you like.

These set of turns were short, but hey, I did what I set out to do!! Got us into the
industrial era, rifles on our front line, Mongols out of our core, and we're in Republic
with very nice income.

Good luck to our next leader!! The biggest fear would be a sneak attack by Russia.
They could quite literally capture 5-6 cities on their FIRST turn!! If anything could
be done about that, it would be a boon.

One discussion point - our Forbidden Palace. I know we want "one", but really, Inch'on
is poor spot. We've waited til 1200AD. If you plan a quiet industrial era, Inch'on will
work, but I'm hopeful for a leader to rush the palace. With Russia gone, Paegam is
extrememly central to a second core in North Korea. Of course, "with Russia gone" might
not happen in our lifetime. Just a thought -- if it ends up hand built in Inch'on,
that's fine.

Options are wide open for our next leader. Best case scenario would be Japan landing and
we tell them to get lost, they declare, giving us about 70gpt and a chance for more tech
and a ldr :P Oh my, I just saw something. China will MPP for silks and spices, period!!!
Any action against Russia should include this!!! (We must of course, defeat Russia
someday, so that they release Marshall!)

RBP2 Save Game 1200AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP2-Koreans-1200AD.zip)

Charis
Jaxom <-- UP
Meldor <-- On deck

Good luck!
Charis 'the Dragon' Kon

I still think it is possible to hit Mongolia while they are still distracted by Japan. If we can grab one or two cities quickly, we can bring them to their knees and the table. This could get us more tech which we need badly.

China complete Hoover and your researching Magnetism??

OUCH! Talk about hurting for tech

I forgot the Mongols are at war with Japan, that's a very good point!

It would be super to remove that blight of a city from our front line, that's for sure. And if we could smack them enough to earn a 1/2 tech tribute, and buy 1.5 more, we could at least start laying down rails.

Not done with Hoover, just starting. Still, sheeeeeeesh. I've NEVER been this far behind at THIS stage of the game. The thing is... we're not catching up 8-( Russia is, iirc, still Democracy, which means they're discovering new techs at double-triple the rate we can obtain them by any means. They were first to electronics, and before we know it, telltale radio towers may show up :eek:

A short run at Mongols would work. If you plan a longer one, MPP with China for distraction purposes is an option. Then on turn 19 of the MPP, declare war on Russia :P (If our back cities are defended by then)

Jaxom lives in interesting times. Remember we're still in "make your mark" mode for the turns. The fact mine was 10 doesn't mean you guys are limited to 10.

Charis

got it

Our biggest threat now is the UN, I see no way, short of conquest :hammer: of keeping one of the AIs from the UN. That will also mean that we won't be one of the top two and won't even be in the voting. We need to encourage a Chinese/Japanese vs. Mongrel/Russian lock up. That way we can abstain and the vote will be a tie.

Charis Kon, did you get the boat finished to find out just how big the other land mass was?

The Prince Epal picks up the scepter of power once again and i