RBP3 - Living by Faith (OPEN SG, Arabs Emp) [Archive]

Sirian

Dec 16, 2002, 07:29 AM

Regarding Civ leader names... I'm from both camps. It was a bit of a shock to play CFGOTM14 and have "Hammurabi of the Babs" cluttering my save folder. :lol: As far as that goes, for me the immersion has long since worn off. I can still get immersed into a game, or play it clinically, but either way the leader names are irrelevant to me now because I've had enough turns at the game with the default names that they are just as meaningless to me now as "ABC123". I can only play as "Bismarck of the Germans" so many times before I think, "Yeah yeah, get on with it". So I'm in complete agreement with Carbon: for tourney games, there are only plusses (in my view) to using the leader name as a game label.

There is another way, though. I also use nicknames, or alternate names. I've run a Marie Antionette at the head of France, for example, and the RBE games I ran were led by "X-man" and "Monty", making them stand out in the save game folder (filled as it is) as much as a clinical label would have. You do the same, as there has only been one game led by "D'Artagnon". :shotgun:

I'm sorry to hear that the convention is a pet peeve of yours, Charis. The mysteries of Mr. C, eh? What I don't quite grok is how that one little bit would shock you out of immersion, while dozens of other (to me, equally) absurd things in the game would not. Oh, for example, transmuting a nearly finished "palace prebuild" magically into Magellan's Voyage, or buying your way to a unanimous vote to become ruler of the world by giving away a couple of techs. Since you see past those artificial tidbits, I'd think you could get past a useful-if-antiseptic game labeling device, but... perhaps not. Whatever works for you.

I read through the thread from the start and felt... a little upset after wrapping my brain around the first rule set to find they had been replaced by several other rule sets in succession. (I'm notably short-tempered with things that create useless work for me lately, and I was left wondering why I had to read through now-obsolete rule sets to get to the real thing). If I may make a suggestion, cut all the extraneous iterations from the thread. If that doesn't appeal, then post the current (final?) rule set in the first post and earmark the others as "optional background info". If the intent is to relieve brain cramp, it will only work if folks know not to cramp themselves with the now-obsolete info.

As for "you expected KISS from Charis" :lol: ;) :hammer:

The irony is, "Sirian Length" in terms of rules tends to be pretty trim. Functional symmetry. (The Epics rules swelled in reaction to need to close down problems, not out of any desire on my part to extrapolate). But pick up the rules for Ember, and they barely fill a paragraph. Then compare to AMZ rules. Of course, Sulla wouldn't know about those items yet.

I do tend to prattle on, don't I? :) But there are many ways to be wordy, and I am champion of fewer of them than the cultural myths and good-natured teasings would indicate.

- Sirian

Charis

Dec 16, 2002, 08:23 AM

Shoot, you're just a TAD early reading the thread -- I fully intend to put the final rules up in post 1 and make what was there 'background' that didn't get in the way. Sorry 8-\ It also highlights my own breaking of a rule - I prefer to float game rules in a 'ideas' thread, then post the final ones and the first save and avoid the clutter. I imagine some readers will be lost when the first turn doesn't show up til page 3 :rolleyes:

I like the nickname idea for the leader names myself, and yes, D'Artagnon came to mind, and I recall it being both helpful for role playing AND to find the save files!

I probably overspoke it too, not a pet peeve, but the 'first' time I saw it I did almost choke. I'm almost used to it now actually, and it had NO adverse impact in epic 19, for example. But then again, I wasn't Joanie at all, I was Napoleon! Not to mention, last week I was stung by playing two Celt games at once and overwrote the wrong game file.

I was amused by the "Sirian length" comment!! I think you're the ONLY one who would smack me down in a length contest! I had what was for me a "tiny" post over at Apolyton, where I'm pretty much unknown, and the folks had a cow - "Holy ***** that was a loooong post!". I'm thinking, oh my, I didn't even get warmed up! :lol:

Thanks for the input, and pardon the extra work - it'll be fixed at save post tomorrow. And in the first post I'll have a "fast foward" link to the game start. Phew, we're still one page.

Charis

Cartouche Bee

Dec 16, 2002, 02:17 PM

I just copied those existing rules cause it looks like an interesting challenge and didn't what to lose access to them.

I kind of like culture victories and this looks doable on emperor. Deity would be a stretch I think. :)

The new set of open SG rules sound fun too! :)

Skyfish

Dec 16, 2002, 03:23 PM

I really do love those Sirian - Charis dialogs, they really are an integral part of Civ3 in the forums !

from Charis :
I imagine some readers will be lost when the first turn doesn't show up til page 3

Remember your Minoan Bull SG ?
I think it was more like 10 pages before the game even begun !

You are so different and yet manage to keep on the edge of respect so that no hard feelings are ever shared...but some times it seems like its just, just , just...

Keep us entertained please !

Sirian

Dec 16, 2002, 07:08 PM

Hard feelings? Nah. None show because there are none. We are at opposite poles in how we craft game situations, but you know they say opposites attract. :lol:

Charis likes cooking up these elaborate stews with loads of ingredients and many spices. I mostly stick to simpler recipes and just cook more of them. I can get elaborate in terms of scoring options, but tend to limit the actual gameplay rules for a scenario. Because he's juggling more ingredients, it sometimes takes him longer to find the right balance -- and with a game like civ3, he can't go through as many iterations as quickly as in other games. So I may get impatient and gripe a little, wanting a refined stew when he's still sorting out his recipe, and he may gripe a little if my soups fail to hit all the flavor buds he's itching to have stimulated. Sometimes we just need to run off to our separate kitchens and cook what we want without worrying about the other guy, but there are also times when either of us cooks up a fine dish that should not be missed.

Now whether that makes ANY sense to anybody besides Charis, I have no idea. :lol:

I might a jump in for a turn or two here, if I hit a famine period with all my other commitments.

- Sirian

Carbon_Copy

Dec 17, 2002, 02:21 AM

One thing I just thought of that might discourage revolution back and forth between Communism is the fact that you generate no culture in anarchy, in addition to no gold and no shields. So if our rounds of whipping don't save at least two turns on the culture victory (once to flip to Communism, once to flip back to Monarchy or whatever we're at), we're better off not doing it. Now, I imagine we can get at least two turns' closer to 100k from our first few rounds like that, but the closer we get the less benefit there is to doing that (we wouldn't want to lose 2 turns' worth of culture to anarchy to rush temples that would only shave 1 turn off the victory date, not to mention the lost gold, beakers, and shields).

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 01:31 PM

Here is the original background material and ruleset, which feedback suggested was too complicated for an "Open" SG :)

It's preserved here in case anyone is interested - the actual game starts in the next post. (I was really hoping this would be the close of pg 1, but someone snuck in an extra post :P )

Charis
--------

"Living by Faith" :jesus: - A PtW, Arab, Large Map, Emperor game seeking 100K Culture win

Abu Bakr, a expansionist religious zealot, is out to domainate the world, but
under the banner of culture, empowered by the devout faith of the civilization. :love2:

Variant rules center around three main areas - land, military and culture

[ Note in EDIT - Rules have been modified! Final rules will be here in the first post very shortly, once we 'start' the game, along with a link to the start! ]

* The Holy Land and city placement :cooool:
- The 12 cities closest to the Palace and the 12 closest to the Forbidden Palace
constitute the "Holy Land". There are different rules and priorities that apply:
* Inside the Holy Land...
- No non-cultural bldgs may be made when there is a cultural choice available
- Spacing must be 3 tiles or greater between towns
* Outside the Holy Land...
- No non-cultural bldgs besides an aqueduct (ie no hospitals, mktplace, courthouse...)
(Exceptions: a harbor or airport for islands, and see below for barracks)
- Fully corrupt cities should irrigate fully and use taxmen to support themselves
- Workers and settlers may be built in between cultural projects. The most common
build order will probably be temple-worker-library-settler.
- The first thing built in ANY new city must be a temple. This is to show their
great devotion to the merciful one, who must always come first.
- Razing of a city in the Holy Land city will result in a jihad, and the total
elimination of the insolent foe who would do such a thing!
- Medina, home of the Ansars, is a special city - this Holy City is the only
training ground for troops, for national defense. It should make an early barracks.
Any type of mil unit may be made in Medina, at any time. Horsemen are common early on.
* Crusades and Military :rant:
- Our 'opening' will be a massive farmer's gambit, with zero military other than
those produced by Medina (which must come after it's temple of course)
- No early wars of aggression against a civ who has never declared war on us
- The period of chivalry is one in which the pride of the Arab military is
trained, the Ansar warrior. From this point on, Arabs will deny tribute demaands.
- With the advent of Chivalry, Holy Land cities may produce Ansars in times of
peace when they have no cultural building available to build.
- The first war that starts (or is progress) at the time Chivalry is learned
becomes the First Crusade.
- During wartime, *ANY* city may build barracks and/or *ANY* kind of troops
- The Crusade cannot end before the capture of a capital or wonder, although
it should not dally on without reason as a loophole to build more troops
- If a civ has previously declared war on our civ, or is currently at war, they
will be the target of this Crusade. If we've stayed out of war, the Holy Land
cities may start to build/amass an Ansar horde and declare on the biggest
'threat' (military or cultural threat)
- A Crusade ends when we're at peace with all civs
- Should other civs show arrogance or be a threat, there may well be additional
crusades, especially as our Ansars learn to fire rifles as true Cavalry.
To get 100K culture we'll want to spread our glorious faith all over!
(Whether that's as a cultural borg or with military might, is yet to be seen!)
* The Forbidden Palace and Culture :borg:
- It's expected to have a very large number of cities, each with all the cultural
buildings they can make, but without spending CASH to rush them. This means they
will need food, and lots of it, both for the purpose of a govt swap-pop rush,
and to take as many workers off the field to be taxmen, to pay for these buildings.
- As the 24 cities in the Holy Land will be the only productive one, the Forbidden
Palace and its placement are crucial! Use the scouts and expansionists traits
wisely to get an early feel of what our long-term territory and Holy Land will look
like, and choose an FP spot which minimizes overlap of the 'rings' with the Palace!
You'll see by city number twelve if we have room to build it ourselves or whether
a currently foreign city is best suited. (Raze such a site unless it has a wonder)
** No intentional starving! Instead, introduce the foreigners to our culture
by letting them participate in a glorious pious project after the Crusade.
Our own people too, should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the advancement
of our faith and culture (e.g. govt swap and use pop-rushing for culture bldgs)
Usually... cities should be captured not razed, but judgement should be used for this
** Our religious buildings and our faith shall be sufficient for our happiness!
The so-called lux slider is not used! It is to be set permanently to 10%,
to represent a tithe of offerings given back to our provider. The blessing
of giving will no doubt bring some happiness to many cities.
We prefer the terms mosque, ampitheatres, and joyful-giver,
to what the westerners call cathedral, colloseum, and taxmen!

Do those rules sound too much? I hope not - the bottom line is:
- The rules about cultural bldgs are all to help us focus on the 100K condition
- The rules about the military give us the power to knock down a civ > 1/2 our culture
- Plan on several post-crusade govt swaps to Communism or Despotism to poprush
(I'm not sure if I have *ever* had a 100K win, and certainly not on Emperor,
so input from others who have would be helpful!)

Format: *OPEN* Succession game - Anyone can post got it, and within 12 hrs of that
must post their new save file. For the *first* round, folks expressing interest
in response to this post will get put in a definite order, and the game will become
fully after this first round. There should be opportunity in the game for many
types of players, expansionists, warmongers, builders, and role-players :p

If you have any questions or comments, or want a reserved spot in the first round, please
respond. The game will start on Dec 16/17, after the close of RBCiv Epics 19 and 20.
(It may take some folks until this time to read the above rules!! :lol: )

:hammer:
Charis

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 01:33 PM

RBP3 - "Living by Faith" :jesus: - A PtW, Arab, Large Map, Emperor game seeking 100K Culture win

Abu Bakr, a expansionist religious zealot, is out to domainate the world, but
under the banner of culture, empowered by the devout faith of the civilization. :love2:

Civilization: Arabia Difficulty: Emperor
Foes: 11 total (8 Religious Japanese, Indians, Aztecs, Iro, Egypt, Bablyon, Spain, Celts,
plus 3 non-lambs: Persia, China and Scandinavia)
Map: Large 60% Continents (high land), other conditions rnd
Barbarians: Roaming (lowest setting where they still exist as wanderers)
Victory condition: All enabled, but we must win by 100K Culture
Other: Turned off AI respawn, kept culture flip and preserve rnd seed

Variant Rules

- The first build in EVERY city must be a temple (Temple rule)
- No non-cultural bldg can be started if there is a cultural choice
available in that city (Culture rule)
- Luxury slider permanently set to 10% (Tithe rule)
- No razing or intentional starving (Mercy rule)
- Until Chivalry we may not build military other than at Medina,
except when at war (Farmer gambit)
- We must declare war or be at war upon making our first Ansar when Chivalry is reached.
That war cannot end until capture of a capital or wonder (Crusade rule)
- If any AI razes one of our core cities, we will never make peace with that AI and must
eliminate them ASAP (Jihad rule)
- Mecca may provide teachers of the law - warriors for military police duty (MP rule)

Here's the starting position:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-StartingPosition.jpg

[0] 4000 BC - Near cow, lake, two BG. We'll move one square NW to get on the
coast and still have access to fresh water and cattle.

[1] 3950 BC - Our scout finds not one, not two, not three, but FOUR cows at
a site to the SE! Wowza, have we found a good "Medina spot" or what?!

Mecca is founded, and we dutifully start on a temple, and demand tithing from
all in our civilization. (Lux slider set *permanently* to 10%)

With no warriors or settlers, we hit the goody hut, and get... Bronze Working.
Praise be! This enables a GA-firing Colossus, if we sought that early (boo).
Of more value would be Oracle.

[2] 3900 BC - We're looking to be in a Florida like penninsula, or (hopefully not)
on an island. Over the next few turns our scout follows along the eastern shore
to see.

[7] 3650 BC - Another goody hut seen, and with no military, we fearlessly pop it
(actually, expansionsists don't get barbs from huts anyway). In any case...
a Settler!! Excellent!! It's so far from home, and our Medina needs to be
in a good production spot, it's a tough call whether to found near where we
are, or head back to the cows. The scout takes his second step to see if any
bonuses in sight, and we see a river just North. With river, plains, hills,
and a lot less distance to walk, Medina shall be founded not far from the goody
hut. (It might even be FP someday?) We can use the cow spot as a settler factory
rather than a troop factory anyway, especially since it's not on a river.

[8] 3600 BC - Scout moves further and sees a wheat, confirming our choice!
We'll pick the spot that puts it in outer tiles but keeps the hills, since
our temple will expand to hit the wheat soon enough.

[11] 3450 BC - Nothing but shore, finds our scout. Mecca expands and sees either
an island or a jutty to the NW.

[NOTE! The first round was played WITHOUT the MP rule, which was added because
it would really just get too ugly without any MP]
With Mecca now size 2 we see the first effect of our variant rules. With no MP
or lux past 10%, the people of Mecca are unhappy. No wonder!! Their glorious
temple is not yet complete! We teach the joys of giving and have one worker rest from
his labors and spend time learning about this wonderful creation, contemplating
the subject of Mysticism.

[15] 3250 BC - Our first temple is complete, and we start the first of several settlers.
Our worker prepares the cow area already.

[17] 3150 BC - Masonry from our next hut. Granary... not bad choice after temple.

[22] 2900 BC - Our settler is done at Mecca. The cow site is SO lush I can't delay
it for a granary, but we can start one now.

Alas, our scout confirms it... we're ALONE on an island. The merciful one has
chosen to protect us from harm, so that we would rely on him and not on
military might! This should mean unhindered expansion and temple building.

[23] 2850 BC - Damascus, o fertile Damascus, is founded.
Next turn Medina finishes it temple and starts a much-needed worker. Those troops
we thought we would need aren't as critical.

[28] 2630 BC - Damascus is booming, and requests the honor of helping to research
Mysticism, to keep the people happy while the temple is under construction.

[29] 2590 BC - Medina worker complete, and it starts it calling as training center,
beginning a barracks. We adjust Mecca to make sure granary done before growth.

[40] 2150 BC - Mysticism is due next turn, Mecca settler due in 4, Damascus in
6. Both may need a taxman on last round, the latter may prefer granary swap,
or even go for Oracle. The problem is, with NO luxuries on our island, and 10%,
we're unhappy at far too small size. Medina will need to crank warriors just for
MP purposes VERY soon. [again, with MP rule, Mecca can do this too] Damascus may
have gotten too much irrigation given it's fixed at size 6, may need to mine over
one at some point. The scout is finishing his 'second loop' to try to de-fog a
few squares here and there.

Roster: None, it's open! Anyone can post "got it", and within 12 hrs, play and
post their new save file, taking 10 turns. (For the next turn only, take 20)
Griselda, Carbon and Zed pre-signed up and no one should grab it a second time before
they've got it at least once :P

Save files for 2150 BC and 4000BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-2150BC-and4000BC.zip)

The game is open... have at it! :hammer:
Charis

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 01:35 PM

Some initial thoughts after the first turn...

One idea given our isolation is to put Damascus on palace placeholder
for literature and Great Library. What tech to pick next is up to our next
leader as well - Map Making, head to Literature, or head to Monarchy. (Since we
can't adjust slider, forget Republic anytime this millenium)

The other thing that comes to mind is FP. By the game's original concept,
it has to be in the "Holy Land", ie on our starting island. Although most
of those ideas have been dropped, I definitely still want a largely populated
homeland with FP present there. Medina sure looks to be in a great spot. It
also has a designated role as troop producer. We do have an interesting option,
however - put Medina on Palace placeholder for FP, have Damascus crank out
settlers and Mecca crank out MP warriors (or later, chariots/horses). Getting
one more city going on a wonder would be nice too, but probably too optimistic.
If we put Medina on early FP placeholder, we'll want to found some of the cities
PAST it, to keep corruption low in Medina itself.

Below is a possible dotmap with two distinctive features -
- Spacing is a tight 3-tile layout, only city 20 would be 2-tiles
- That leaves us four cities to fill up a small island, or else we may end
up considering this island itself as "The Holy Land" (simpler, and fits 'role')
- The order is relative, but the odd numbering show is for a reason - if we found
the spots FAR away, past Medina first, after the 12th is built it can self-build
the FP. What I'm not sure is, although it would not be ultracorrupt, would it
still be SO low in shields that self-building FP won't work. Keep in mind too that
for every city closer than Medina, that will increase its corruption and troop
making ability, even if it doesn't go for FP. Going this route, it might even
be good to forsake all for this goal - swap off barracks to palace placeholder,
and when the 12th city is build, switchover to FP.
(Looking for another spot, none is nearly as good as Medina)
- I hope some other civ is near, or it will be not only slow getting to Chivalry,
but a REAL challenge to capture a capital or wonder in our first crusade!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-ArabDotmap.jpg

BTW, another reason the MP rule was added was that I really hadn't counted
on having *NO* luxuries whatsoever available in our starting spot 8-\

Charis

Zed-F

Dec 17, 2002, 02:59 PM

That's quite a dense build! What was your objective, to try to fit as close to 24 cities as possible, to try to get all cities 12 worked tiles, or something else? That will leave each of our cities short on shields, but will give us lots of cash. I would suggest to eliminate city 20 and move 18 one tile NW, I think we're a bit too close to ICS for comfort there. Especially with all that desert not providing any food, we need to ensure all our cities have enough food-producing tiles available to grow to a respectable size. Anyway, our starting island is sufficient for the holy land. I don't think it's likely we'll ever have to invoke the Jihad rule now... :)

Growth-wise, what do we need? We have to keep all our cities at or below size 6 or we'll never be able to keep them happy without specialists (thus slowing their growth), at least until harbours are built and the AI starts being able to trade us lux. However, Medina is on a river; moreover we need it to be building MP even to keep size 6 cities. A really early FP might be possible at 200 shields before we have too many cities getting large enough to need lots of MP, but I don't think we can afford a big wonder there or unhappiness will get out of control and stunt our growth too much. A couple regular MP warriors and then Palace/Oracle prebuild for FP would be better. Something that naturally caps at 6 due to lack of fresh water might be a better candidate for a long wonder build. At least if we keep Mecca and Damascus on settler duty (with Mecca also on MP) then we can be pretty much guaranteed to grab our island before the AIs come to grab a piece, so if we waste one or two cities' production on wonders and can't get them we won't miss the production that much. If we do go for wonders, Pyramids and Great Library strike me as way better than Oracle, especially with our enforced delay on starting granaries until after temples+libraries (if possible) are complete. I would rate our chances at Pyramids as dubious but Great Library (with Palace prebuild) as quite possible if the cascade breaks our way.

In hindsight, Mysticism probably wasn't what we wanted to research. We need literature quickly so we can get early libraries going, but we need mapmaking first for contacts/luxuries and to be able to build harbours in coastal villages before they are forced to build a library. In many cases, harbours would rate more highly than granaries.

falsfire

Dec 17, 2002, 03:20 PM

In my experience, the game always starts each civ within reasonable reach to a luxury. On island settings like this, the "nearest lux" might be on a small island a couple tiles across the water from somewhere near the capitol, I wouldn't be surprised if you find there's a very nearby island, inhabited or not, with your luxury on it.

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 03:58 PM

Very good comments Zed, tnx!

> That's quite a dense build! What was your objective, to try to
> fit as close to 24 cities as possible, to try to get all cities 1
> 2 worked tiles, or something else? ... I would suggest to
> eliminate city 20 and move 18 one tile NW, I think we're a bit
> too close to ICS for comfort there.

The goal was to get as close to 24 cities as possible in our Holy Land... er... island, without having any with a spacing of 2. Elimiating C20 would be fine. [EDIT] Also, in my mind, 3 spacing is "dense", 2 is "ICS". Or as T-Hawk put it: "no pairs of cities at 6-tiles or more of overlap(which is a 3/0 or 3/1 distance on the grid) except to fill in along a coastline. That gives each city right around 12 tiles, which is optimal."

I think there's a bit too much aversion to 'ICS' - first of all that 'I' stands for "Infinite" and we're only talking about our core :P
I'm figuring that very early temples in cities built asap in the core is the best start - we don't need huge shield production.

> Especially with all that desert not providing any food, we need
> to ensure all our cities have enough food-producing tiles
> available to grow to a respectable size.

Abu-Charis says "It is the matter of the heart that is important not the size. A city of size one can have a temple and be faithful!"
(Ok, actually, not enough concern given about desert - we don't want our people to be without food)

> Anyway, our starting island is sufficient for the holy land. I don't
> think it's likely we'll ever have to invoke the Jihad rule now...
Hehe, yes, if so we're doing something wrong.

I think you're probably right in that we can't afford a wonder city given our other needs. Warr-pair then prebuild for Medina seems fine too.

As you point out, a foreigner settling in the Holy Land would be most distasteful.

> In hindsight, Mysticism probably wasn't what we wanted to
> research. We need literature quickly so we can get early
> libraries going, but we need mapmaking first for
> contacts/luxuries and to be able to build harbours in coastal

Abu-Charis eschews your heathen-like comment decrying glorious Mysticism and the wonder of double-force temples in our temple-rich land! What need have we for mapmaking and learning the ways of the evil world?!?!

[ Zed, your comment was a kind way of saying that "Mysticism sucks!", and you're right of course! You'll see similar such role-inspired semi-weed as the game progresses, although I'll try to keep it not TOO detrimental :D ]

falsfire, wow, I hope you're right! Another island with space for 4-6 cities would be a great boon, and would relieve the need for overcramping our starting island. That just highlights the already obvious need for mapmaking asap!

Does anyone have any idea how many culture-focused cities we'll need to hit 100K before the AI launches, on Emperor, large map?
Knowing whether that number is 16 or 48 would have a huge impact on the game plan. (The Great Library with its high culture value would help a lot, in any case)

Charis (with help from Abu-Charis :jesus: )

Arathorn

Dec 17, 2002, 04:12 PM

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27108

might give some helpful clues on city numbers. I know they did it, but I missed half the details, as I was way busy during the heart of the game and haven't read it carefully.

My experience with 100K culture is that the culture of wonders is way overrated vis-a-vis shield cost and that early temples/libraries/cathedrals/colosseums/universities are much more important. But, I've not done 100K in a LONG time, so that's partly experience but mostly "just theory" speaking.

Arathorn

ToddMarshall

Dec 17, 2002, 08:26 PM

@falsefire

While your lux comments were right on the money concerning Vanila Civ3, I'm finding more variety on that front in ptw. In vanila, the only time you wouldn't start with a lux as far as i could see was on tiny 20% land pelagos as far as i could see. Aparently it couldn't fit all the lux in on those sometimes. In fact, I once generated a map with no lux anywhere on the entire planet (8 horses/iron, 4 of the other strategic resourses was all there was period).

In fact, on standard size maps, i NEVER saw one where the lux/civ stat locations was not exacty the same

The other day in an SP ptw game I had this situation. I shared an island and one lux with Rome, Egypt had an island to themselves with one lux. China started on an island alone with no lux. The other 4 civs had 5 lux on their island they shared. The eighth lux, gems, was on a very big, 95% jungle island about as far away from chinas no lux island as possible. This was on a standard 40% land map no less.

It generally does start you with a lux, but its not nearly as reliable about that as vanilla was.

Cartouche Bee

Dec 17, 2002, 09:06 PM

OK, I'll pick it up and follow the build plan to move this forward.

Cartouche Bee

Dec 17, 2002, 10:20 PM

2110 Mysticism discovered, Alphabet started, science raised to 80%.
2070 Scout on to lookout duty to watch for barbs
2030 Mecca worker set to scientist to save disorder.
1990 Mecca produces settler and will build warrior under the MP rule. This settler will proceed to build spot 6. [speed rule :)]
1950
1910 Damascus builds settler starts another. Settler heads for build spot 4. science 90%
1870 Mecca builds warrior, starts another. Baghdad founded start temple.
1830 Najran founded start temple. Medina switches to palace, The Medina gambit commences ( dislike coastal palaces and we know we need a good center for military later). Has to wait for MP from Mecca.
1790
1750
1725
1700
1675
1650 Settler on route to spot 5. science down to 70
1625
1600
1575 Discover alphabet on to writing. Mecca starts another settler.
1550
1525
1500

Pretty basic except for the Medina gambit, two settlers about to come on line, writing still 20 turns away, working on connecting roads.

Abu Bakr of the Arabs, 1500 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-1500BC.zip)

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 11:21 PM

Good to see it moving, tnx CB for picking that up.

The Caliph, as also advised by holy zed, affirms the wisdom of movement toward libraries, where we can gather to read and study the wisdom of the ages, and to use writing to preserve our glorious culture! It is good that the holy cows of Damascus can both provide new settlers and provide income for a hefty research budget.

"Caliph Abu-C is somewhat puzzled by talk of gambits. One surely does not mean the movement of our Palace itself from the holiest of all cities, Mecca??! The very pilgrimage (Haj) site for all the faithful! This is... strictly forbidden!!! In fact, only a Forbidden Palace could be built in the city founded by the settler-granted-by-fate, Medina! If this was the gambit spoken of, having a second center of government to reduce corruption, this seems a wise albeit unusual course of action. Surely we will found 12 cities by the time Medina has assembled the brick and mortar needed to put together such a wonder."

I've been taking a close look at TH2 SG, the only other 100K one I've seen, also fortunately on Emperor. They were using a more restrictive ruleset - we have the advantage of a Crusade to aide our goals. The bottom line is that a solid 20-24 cities very focused on culture should be enough to reach 100K by about 1940 AD. The problem they faced was a civ with more than half their culture and they had to accumulate 200K (!) to win - with about 80 cities, many founded or taken early enough to be useful culturally. This should give us both incentive to have some nice combat with the Ansars, as well as not let us get TOO worried about having enough time or cities to win - there's slack to 'play around' some :P Later in the game I'll post more technical details and some charts on culture progress based on this analysis.

Charis

PS - This post almost started with "Technical problem - I can't seem to load the save file you posted" - until I realized I was trying to open it under vanilla Civ3 :P

Cartouche Bee

Dec 17, 2002, 11:44 PM

Fear not Caliph Abu-C this construction at Medina will never reach the magnificence of our palace at Mecca. But it should serve well to deliver your guidance to all the surrounding lands and aid the spread of holiness far and wide.

Without the MP rule though this building at Medina would not have been practical at all.

My last deity 100K culture win had about 60 cities, not more than 20 cities in the main core, so I doubt this will be much of a problem. ;)

Zed-F

Dec 18, 2002, 09:03 AM

Quick question, what was Medina doing until 1830? Building MP for itself, building the barracks, or something else?

Cartouche Bee

Dec 18, 2002, 09:24 AM

Zed-F, when I picked up the game it was already building barracks. It would have completed those barracks next turn (1790BC). Perhaps getting a leg up on the Forbidden Palace was pretty weedy but corruption will be a major problem even before the FP is completed. If we had not been alone and fairly secure for at least a while I doubt if I would have gone down this path. Hope it's not a break from the intended rules, at least it's a culture building. :) Probably by the time it builds the FP it may have to build a library (if we have literature by then) before it can produce a barracks so it will have it's work cut out for it.

Zed-F

Dec 18, 2002, 02:40 PM

No, I was a proponent of the early FP as well if you take a look at the discussions, and that's perfectly fine under our rules. It sounds like at the start of your turn it was building a barracks, but when the barracks was almost complete you swapped to Palace? I was thinking of a swap to 2 regular warriors for MP at Medina at the outset and then start the FP, still skipping the barracks. This would have provided the MP to allow Medina to grow for a bit while building the FP, while still getting a quick start on the FP, and with less MP-production stress on Mecca. However, I don't know how many shields Medina had built up before your turn started, so maybe that wouldn't have been a prudent move. Anyway, it's water under the bridge now. :) As things stand, I would just let the FP complete, and hope that Mecca can keep up the pace with MPs for Medina as well as everywhere else.

Side note: how embarassing for Medina though that Mecca will have to provide them with MPs, when they are the military focus city! They're going to have a tough time living that one down anytime soon... :)

Cartouche Bee

Dec 18, 2002, 02:46 PM

Nope, didn't build barracks, not warriors either :(, just switched and saved all the shields for the FP. It was a long wait for that first warrior from Mecca to get there but I had made the mistake already. Mecca was pumping warriors every 2 turns (so got six) and Mecca's natural sheild production went over 5, I changed over to settler.

Zed-F

Dec 18, 2002, 02:53 PM

Ok, no problem, I didn't read your post correctly to begin with, and looks like you replied before my edit came in. :)

Charis

Dec 18, 2002, 02:57 PM

I'll have to check the save later, but it sure sounded like he swapped OFF barracks, as Zed hoped. [ JUST before submitting I now see CB has answered - no rax. That was definintely the smart move! If it's building the FP it won't be making troops and a rax would just delay the FP for several turns for no reason - good job ]

The fact that the Medina settler was a "gift from above" (aka goody hut) makes it somewhat special, and a from-the-start shot at Forbidden Palace is both nicely in character and something I can't say I've ever tried. Rather than a bonus settler doubling the growth rate of a civ (it's usual impact) - in our game the effect will be a free quasi-early FP. It would probably make sense as soon as we can spare a worker to start it improving/mining tiles around Medina.

But yes, it is quite ironic that Mecca will supply our barracks-less military town with MP units :lol:

BTW, I read in another thread where a city hit +10 food surplus and 8 shields per turn, and since it grew every turn, it pulled in one more worker to make it really 10 spt. That's a worker *EVERY* turn! omg, what a worker factory! I wonder with all those cows if Damascus can hit this golden number?? Forget granaries elsewhere when you can send workers to join the city. Our pop score would be very nice indeed :P

Not looking at the map so silly question, but... any chance of Baghdad taking a shot at a wonder? (Getting two of the three GLib, GLthouse, Oracle would be a miracle, but quite a boon. I know though, that's crazy talk)

Charis

JaxomCA

Dec 18, 2002, 06:16 PM

Charis, I don't think the 10 food/10 shields number can come before railroad. You may have a 5 food/5 shields situation in your sacred cow city, giving you a worker every 2 turns.

This is an interesting SG, I guess I will be followingit closely. :)

Charis

Dec 18, 2002, 09:23 PM

I just looked at Damascus and it's *9* surplus food at size 4, and that's using a tile mined instead of irrigated and we're in *despotism* :eek: Four grass cows!

Let me see... let's look at post-despotism numbers - use one irrigated and three mined cows, one mined hill, one mined BG, that's for a size 6 city, will give +10 food, 13 shields. Kick it down to size 5 for a size 5->6 cycle and drop that BG, and it's
+10 food, 11 shields, or 10 after corruption.

I think we have us a MEGA worker factory, once it's done with settler production and we're out of despotism. Cool! :cool:

Zed, Carbon, Griselda, jump on in if you have time here, else someone else go right ahead and help settle our lovely holy island :P We're just avoiding folks going twice until those who showed definite interest got to play once.

Charis

Griselda

Dec 19, 2002, 01:03 AM

I've been pretty surprised at how much of my free time has evaporated this week. :( I'm not going to have time to play until this weekend, so I'm hoping some other lemmings might jump in in the mean time.

I know I'll be off work for at least two weeks after this one, then I can do more jumping. :)

-Griselda

ToddMarshall

Dec 19, 2002, 04:39 AM

I'll try to take a shot at this one tomorrow night. I know I won't have time for the Korean Diety game then, but I think I can squeeze some turns in then if somone else isnt playing it. That doesn't mean wait on me, heh, anyone feel free to take it of course.

Zed-F

Dec 19, 2002, 08:34 AM

I tried taking a turn this morning, but for some reason my Civ3 PTW CD is not working, so I'm going to have to skip out on playing this one for now at least. :( We'll see if I get an opportunity to try and take another turn if/when I get the problem resolved.

Griselda

Dec 20, 2002, 07:24 PM

I came home to find the house surprisingly quiet. :) I'm going to start now, and should have a report up by some time tonight.

-Griselda

Griselda

Dec 21, 2002, 12:51 AM

(0) 1500 BC - Everything looks great :)
BT- Mecca completes settler, starts warrior. Damascus completes settler and starts granary.

(1) 1475 BC - Settlers move off to spots 7 and 8. Medina worker heads south to connect the road. There's an extra warrior that Medina doesn't need right now, that will head to the coastal hill for a lookout (look! water!). He'll join one of the settlers for MP duty. Mecca gets to use the mined grass tile (aargh, dense builds means lots of tile swapping, doesn't it?).
BT- Baghdad temple -> worker

That's when I got to thinking, does the "cultural rule" apply to wonders? Do we want it to? That is, can a city build a non-cultural building if there's a wonder available? That would fit with the rules as written, but in reality could mean a ton of wasted shileds unless the AI have been only trading :smoke: Anyway, for now I tried to play it out kind of in the "spirit" of that one, but haven't put enough shields to anything to commit.

Anyway, Nayran completes worker, starts Oracle. If nothing else, this could be swapped to an early library.

(2) 1450 BC
BT- Mecca war -> war

(3) 1425 BC - Tile swap between Mecca and Baghdad. New warriors will be headed to the NE for MP duty. It's a long enough walk that I don't want to wait until I need them to start sending them.

(4) 1400 BC - Kufah founded @5. I spent way too long trying to decide between the wheat and the game tile, and ended up starting on the wheat. This would have been the right choice in any other game, but with the Tithe rule I should have started in the game forest. Anyway, I swapped it once it grew and I realized the mistake.

BT - Mecca war -> settler
Baghdad worker -> granary

(5) 1325 BC
(6) 1300 BC - Najran worker moves to Damascus. Mecca is size 6 and needs a scientist until the settler is done.

(7) 1275 BC The ancient age equivalent of the twin cities. Two settlers set out on the same date, one from Mecca and one from Damascus. They spent many long years in travel, and finally founded "Basca" (@7) and "Khurasan" (@8), once again on they very same year. This was widely seen as a good omen, inspiring the people to begin construction on twin temples. Damascus now needs a scientist.

(8) 1250 BC
BT - Mecca settler -> settler

(9) 1225 BC - Kufah grows and immediately hires a scientist, oops!

(10) 1200 BC -

State of the Holy Land-
There's only one settler, who is on the way to site 9. Mecca has another settler in the works, and Damascus will be able to crank when its granary is complete, in 2. Damascus is set to grow again in 1, but with +7 food the box will at least be a good way towards a refill when the granary is full. Some workers over by Mecca and Damascus are building roads over plain tiles, they are on the way to bg tiles to work.
Baghdad and Najran are on very veto-able projects. Barracks are of course right out, and they can't make MP units anyway! I thought it may be good to grab a granary in Baghdad while there's no cultural option, and the Oracle seemed so fitting for the Civ that I couldn't help but start it somewhere. Najran has higher corruption than Baghdad, but more shield tiles available. Of course, it could be swapped out to a library or something as the tech comes in.

Writing is due in 4 with a small deficit. We still haven't met any of the faith-less heathens.

The 10% tithe rule definitely changes things more than I'd have expected! I hope I didn't let the cities grow too much on my turn (how often do you hear that in the ancient age?)

Enjoy! :)

-Griselda

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-gris-1200bc.zip

Charis

Dec 21, 2002, 09:29 AM

That was a good turn Griselda. :p

In general, no, you do NOT have to start a great wonder to satisfy the culture rule. That would end us up too much like the AI, trying to build Hoover Dam in a spot with 3 shields per turn. In this specific case, we don't lose TOO much having Najran going for the Oracle, and it's quite "fitting". There are also two other wonders to swap to if it gets finished by someone else early.

If we do keep in on a wonder, the next leader might consider letting Najran have the mined-cow and mined-BG squares. That would give it almost twice as many shields. When it hits size 4-5 it will pull a very nice 8-10 shields. Also, if you can road and mine the gold hills, working that tile would be high squares AND due to the high commerce cause an extra smiley face in the city.

Medina is doing great on its FP production - it looks like it will be ready just about the time our 12th city is founded!

And yes, the tithe rule will be tougher and more important than one might think, especially when it comes to war time, or if we make the mistake of importing and getting used to a bunch of luxuries, then see them dry up.

Game is free... come lead our holy people to greater glory!

Charis

Cartouche Bee

Dec 21, 2002, 10:54 AM

Since we are on an island and Medina will obviously not help with any navy, what is the ruling on these military units. Is Mecca our only source on navy in the ancient times and pre war times? Whatever the guidance, how about adding to that guidance "No naval units unless the city has a harbor"?

Griselda

Dec 21, 2002, 12:49 PM

I wasn't suggesting having wonders going in all the 3spt cities, but I was thinking that if they were being built in a good city or 2 that they then wouldn't be options for our little cities ;)

I think that we have enough restrictions that we shouldn't force ourselves into lost causes, but we should maybe make the "in character" ones a priority when realistic.

-Griselda

Charis

Dec 21, 2002, 12:57 PM

Vessels are merely vessels for our holy warriors. Things made out of wood and pitch and lines. There is no restriction on making these (beyond the expected - don't build one first if it delays a cultural bldg improvement)

We must take our faith to the world!

Abu-Charis

Architect

Dec 21, 2002, 03:04 PM

I got it

Architect

Dec 21, 2002, 04:24 PM

1200BC(0) - The holy land... what's so holy about this land. It is far from a holy and just place with its restless citizens and lazy workers. I will do much during my rule to make this land a "holy" one through the rigid application of the bambo cane. I veto the production of the granary in Baghdad and build another worker instead. I also switch our second scientist to a taxmen with Writing still due in 4 turns and only -3 per turn now.

1175BC(1) - Baghdad Worker -> Granary. Our worker from baghdad journeys to medina to help improve the many plains around our future winter place of worship. The decision to build the oracle in Najran is troubling. I think one of the heathen nations will complete a similar wonder before we do. I may move the Oracle to Mecca and put all effort into building this great temple honoring our holy land.

1150BC(2) - Our granary completes in Damascas. The holy land will soon be graced with hordes of settlers! My advisor's bring me anchient texts from the great Abu-Charis which contradict my plan of building the oracle in Mecca. If we do this they say I won't be able to build our cane wielding warriors to "protect" the populace from immoral thoughts. I order the reorganization of our workers in Najran to speed the building of the Oracle. 92 turns now. This is still not good enough. I will continue to ponder this problem...

1125BC(3) - Mecca produces another settlers and begins a "cane" Warrior. Our worker reaches medina and begins a great irrigation project to bring rich fertile lands to our coastal cities.

1100BC(4) - Our holy scientists discover writing and promptly write down the rules of law for our holy land. We must find a way to spread our message to others and begin research into map making. Anjar is founded where Abu-Charis decreed in the ancient "dotmap" (number 9). A temple is ordered. I drop our scientific research to 50% for Map Making in 29 turns a -1. Anything higher we cannot afford. Najran grows and now we complete the oracle in 68 turns.

1075BC(5) - Mecca completes a cane warrior and starts another. I declare we need gold as additional tribute so a mine is ordered on our gold producing hill near Najran.

1050BC(6) - Our temple in Kufah completes and I order a worker.

1025BC(7) - Mecca completes a warrior and I order another. OH THE SHAME - the Heathen Iroqouis complete a great monument to their gods before us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3oracle.jpg

I order our master architect beheaded for his incompetence. I switch Najran to the Colossus.

1000BC(8) - Damascus completes another settler and I order up another one. Still angry over losing the Oracle I whip a temple in Khurasan as homage to our god.

975BC(9) - Our temple in Khurasan completes and I order a worker. Mecca completes a warrior and starts a settler.

950BC(10) - Our worker completes in Kufah and I start another. I'm going to undo one of the irrigated cows as we need shields in Damascus more than food now. Next leader should continue building temples settlers, workers and "cane" warriors. Irrigation of the land around Medina will be critical once the FP comes on line. The more prepared we are when that happens the better boost we will get from it.

Here is the great holy land as of 950BC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3950bc.jpg

Here is the save:

950BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-arabs-950bc.zip)

Unique Unit

Dec 21, 2002, 04:57 PM

Be warned, holy ones, that Colossus will trip a golden age for your people. (And pray, pardon an interruption from this most humble of lurkers.)
:jesus:

Charis

Dec 21, 2002, 10:32 PM

Surely the heathen are both bold and industrious to complete so great a project as the Oracle! Fortunately, besides Colossus we have Pyramids and before TOO long, Great Lighthouse.

But if the heathen get even busier still, there is an out. We have two settlers in the field I think, and one more about to come out. Have the latter head to the city site the closest number of turns away, to found the 12th city. The FP can be built the turn that is founded - I think we're probably real close to the shields already, and Narjan will have the Palace open to change too (if other GW's get built) If open wonder choices are built and we've not settled our 12, the shields would be lost.

If things are nicer, as I hope, we'll reach Map Making and can snag the Lighthouse before then. It'll depend on whether someone's capital is on the coast.

Good luck to our next pious leader...
Charis

hotrod0823

Dec 22, 2002, 05:04 PM

Unless a more worthy leader steps forward a shall continue this crusade for cultural dominance beginning this evening.

I will check tonight if a more qualified leader emerges from the darkness to grab the staff and continue before I complete my turns at the helm.

(In other words if someone has a problems with me playing 10 turns please let me know)

Hotrod

Charis

Dec 22, 2002, 06:35 PM

There is no more worthy leader than the one who cares for the good of his people....

Rule wisely, rod of heat! Consult the star map of dots or choose your own path, but found our 12th of cities with rapidity, that we may grow in grace and truth!

Abu-Charis

hotrod0823

Dec 22, 2002, 06:41 PM

We welcome the vote of confidence. The round has begun and may the path to cultural domination come easily! ;) Report will come later tonight

Hotrod

hotrod0823

Dec 22, 2002, 08:51 PM

And so it Continues: The Holy land is very close to the glory of the FP.

950 BC (0): The citizens are reorganized in Mecca and Demascus to grow and build settlers each in 4 at Mecca and a new settler from Damascus in 4 as well.

925 BC (1): Damasscus grows to 6 and requires the aid of wizard to keep the peace, settlers shall leave the city the next time it grows. Maps in 16 with +0 gold.

900 BC (2): Found Fustat at site 10 to the NW, begin our temple as required by our faith.

875 BC (3): The city to the East is to be founded soon, only 1 more site and we shall realize our dream of a vast land free from corruption.

850 BC (4): Mecca releases a group to settle within the holy lands, and begins a warrior to help control the masses. Damascus too creates a group of followers to spread the word, and starts another. Found Aden to the East, begin the temple. Production must be slowed in Kufah, too much shields.

825 BC (5): Production on the settlers continues at Kufah. The 2 settlers head to the North and toward greatness.

800 BC (6): The warrior leaves the capital in search of new citizens to "protect". Our settlers arrive at site 13 next turn, the glory of the the FP shall be realized in due time.

775 BC (7): The play at Kufah is a bust, the tireless workers completed a mine and pushed production ever closer. The 12th city will become a reality next turn.

INBT: The horror the infidels of Spain have completed the Colossus, humm is there anything to change to????

750 BC (8): Found Yamamma at site 13, start temple. Change the great project at Medina to the Forbidden Palace and swap the Colossus of Najran to the Pyramids. The gods have wished well upon us ;).

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/medina.JPG

730 BC (9): More warrior leave from Mecca to keep the peace, a group of villagers begin. Medina completes the Forbidden Palace :D, starts barracks. Khurasan releases a worker and begins a granary. Basra builds the temple and starts a worker.

710 BC (10): Damassucus builds a settler and starts another. Egypt completes the Pyramids, Najran is changed to Palace. Japan completes the Great Wall. Found Muscat to the NW of Medina.

The lands have been well settled but many sites still remain. Our first boats will be available in 4 turns, then it is on to Lit and the culture of the library.

Good luck to the next leader.

Hotrod

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3_710BC.zip

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-710BC.JPG

Charis

Dec 23, 2002, 02:12 AM

Great blessings upon our nation and thanks above for providential timing! Those wonders did go quick, as the heathen did lick them up, but our most wonderful Palace in Medina was complete in time to save Najran, as well as bless the people of the eastern part of our lands.

The rod of heat has led welll... who will be next, and teach
us how to read the scriptures?!?!? Mayhaps meet another civilization? :king:

Abu-Charis

PS Wow, hand-built FP in 730BC on a large map, that's a record for me.

PPS We'll actually need a wonder tech before the Palace would finish at Najran, or it will be a very expensive library :P
(EDIT - in response to Hotrod below, GL or GL, tough call! I wish I knew what the rest of the map was like! Library is probably more useful, but more likely to go before we get the tech. Lighthouse could be uber on the right map, or useless on the wrong one - more thoughts on this would be helpful)

PPPS I just looked at our island picture again, and it seems like the 'dry hot weather' version of Cuba!

hotrod0823

Dec 23, 2002, 06:52 AM

The Great Lighthouse will be available in 4 turns. And after that the Great Library. If they do not go before that :eek:.

Hotrod

ToddMarshall

Dec 24, 2002, 05:26 AM

I got it. Will post in an hour or so. :)

ToddMarshall

Dec 24, 2002, 08:10 AM

[0] Not a whole lot to say here. Most of the build orders/tiles worked are pretty much on auto pilot because of the scenareo or the lack of any tile improvments available.

Things of note.

1) The capital is cranking an evil 9spt at size 5. We will want to fix that to 10 this turn if possible by mining that irrigated BG.

2) We need more workers!!! I'm going to set up a worker factory at our cow city after it finishes the settler. I'm also going to found the cities slightly out of order, skiping 14 for now. I assume we agree to axe city 20? That should just leave 14 and 19 to be founded.

3) With the inability to touch the slider, I assume Monarchy would be better for this sceneareo? Maybe T-Hawk or one of the better number crunchers can give us the rundown of whats better being stuck at 10%. IT just seem's like we'll have an awful lot of clowns arround with 10% tithe and no lux/MP.

4) We are OBVIOUSLY way behind in tech as the Great Wall has allreday been produced. We have a SCARY choice of which wonder to choose. What if we are on an island that can't reach anyone before Navigation *shudder*
No build orders are changed.

[1] Baghdad Grainery -> Settler (Should only need one more settler started other than this to fill in the Holy land, and site 19 is so deset laden 4-5 turns delay on it should be no biggie)
Kufah Settler -> Grainery (Harbor Placeholder Perhaps)

[2] Spacebar Turn ZZZZZZZ

[3] Mecca Settler -> Settler (The last one we need)
Barsa Worker -> Grainery (Library Prebuild)
Slider Adjusted so we get 16gold as Map Making comes in.

[4] Map Comes in, Research Started on Lit at 12 turns with a 1gpt clearance.
Narjan swaps from Palace, to Lighthouse..... Hope there is still a wonder available 26 turns from now.....
Damascus Settler -> Worker I see this city can crank one of these every 2 turns without even needing the 4th cow, and should probably do this now... NO WAIT, DOH. I don't see ANYWHERE else that would be able to complete a Harbor before Literature... If I don't build one here, NOW, we wont't have one until AFTER Libraries. The settler factory is going to have to wait for a few turns...
Mansura founded at spot 17, starts temple (duh)

[5] Medina Baracks -> Worker (the 6th pop point isnt doing us any good)

Continue micromanaging the heck out of the overlap tiles around Mecca/Damascus/Narjan to keep them all growing/building at the best available rate. It's funny to see all 3 of them working tiles closer to everywhere else than home :lol: Lighhouse now due in 19.

[6] Anjar Temple -> Worker

[7] Medina Worker -> Warrior
Bukhara founded at site 16
Aleppo founded at the adjusted site 18

The 2nd hill near Narjan is now mined, puting an end to the swap everyone arround every turn fun :) The Harbor will complete the same turn Lit comes in, so assuming we arent FORCED to use Scroll ahead to swap lo library, we will have one finished so that no matter what, when Navigation comes around we will have a trade route with anyone we have found. It's kind of bad that our only Harbor is in our worker factory city, but at least there IS going to be one. There is no further benifit to MMing the wonder because the extra sheild is lost to corruption, and the Capital will grow just as it completes the settler. Wheee, that was a micro managing headache now put to rest.

[8] Mecca Settler -> Galley
Fez founded at site 15

[9] Medina Warrior -> Warrior

[10] Muscat Temple -> Grainery

Notes:

We are now losing 2gpt on research. I check and we can go down a notch and still get Lit in 5 and we will make 4gpt instead.

We have a settler near Aleppo that should be sent along to fill in the last costal spot near Fez, and a Settler which will complete in Baghdad next turn to fill in the final gap. Our first Galley will complete in the Capital in 4 turns, our Harbor will complete in cow town in 5, the same turn Literature comes in. The Lighthouse is due in 14 if we decide to take that rather than go for the Library.

I messed up one thing, letting Mansura borrow the Game forest 1 turn too long, so it will grow to size 2 one turn before the temple completes. Next player will want to watch this to make sure it doesn't riot at the end of his next turn.

Pretty basic and straightforward turn with few critical decisions to be made. The next couple of leaders will have far more important choices to make than I did, such as research stratagey, and wether to keep on the Lighthouse, or go for the Library, risking the Lighthouse being swallowed via cascade.

As soon as our harbor finises in cow town, we should set it up as our worker factory, and, perhaps even make a settler out of it first to send out on a galley.

To whomever follows me, good luck.

Save file can be found at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-510BC.sav

JMB

Dec 26, 2002, 07:35 PM

Got it.

0 - everything looks good. Medina completes warrior, begins spearman (it is making 7 spt). Bagdad completes settler, begins harbor (library prebuild). Anjar completes worker, begins harbor. Aden completes temple, begins worker.

1 - with our current map, I really don't see a need/reason to settle position 19 (it will only help us reclaim 1 desert tile). Instead, I send our settler towards the capital to board our soon to be completed galley.

2 - Nothing much. Mecca completes galley, begins another. Yamama completes temple, begins worker.

3 - Nothing much. Medina completes spearman, begins another.

4 - We see land to the W of Kufah. We should be able to get there (safely) next turn. We learn Literature, begin researching Mathematics. Damascus completes harbor, begins settler. Fustat completes temple, begins library. Switch Najaran to the GL, due in 22 turns! Switch most of our harbor and granary prebuilds to libraries.

5 - We found Shiraz to the N, NW of Manura. We begin building a temple. Aden produces a worker, begins a library.

6 - We found Merw and a the friendly Numidian tribe gave us their map of our region. Begin a temple (does the temple have to come before a worker? If not, the next leader might want to consider building a worker first to help speed up growth. Alternatively, one could send a worker from from the Holy Land...). Change Medina from Library to a spearman as we could still use more MP. Mecca produces another Galley, begins a Library. Medina completes spearman and begins another. Kufah riots (Grrr... I must have missed it when I was scanning through the F1 screen. I hire a tax collector.)

7 - Nothing much. It appears that we might be alone on our newly discovered island as well. Hopefully we'll be able to reach another island if that is the case. Yamama completes a worker, and begins another.

8 - We have to MM Mansura this round to prevent rioting. I take the game tile from Kufah to prevent starvation. We hire another tax collector in Mecca to prevent rioting (is there a particular reason we can't raise the lux slider beyond 10% (I understand that if we lowered it, we would no longer be contributing our tithe :nono:, but if more of our economy was being used to teach about Allah's benevolance, it could increase the happiness of our citizens... :)) Damascus produces a settler, begins another. Mansura completes its temple, begins a worker.

9 - I set a couple of workers outside of Yamama to chop the forest there. The next leader should pay attention to when they will be finished so that we can be sure that Baghdad gets the shields instead of Yamama or Bukhara (swap Baghdad to using that forested tile on the turn that the workers will finish chopping down the forest).

10 - Note to next leader, do not use our warrior on our western island to pop the goody hut until we get several more troops over there. We don't want to have barbs harassing Merw. Speaking of which, we should probably send the warrior back to Merw soon in case some barbs show up on the northern part of that island. I hire an entertainer (is this allowed, or are we only allowed taxmen?) in Damascus to prevent rioting. I have switched the tiles around between Mecca and Damascus. If the next leader wants to practice their MMing, you could swap the one cow tile between the two cities. This would allow Damascus to collect 6 food one turn and 4 the next (growth in 2. Otherwise, Damascus is collecting 6 food (growth in 2, wasting two food) or 4 food (growth in 3, wasted food = 2 (if Mecca keeps the cow tile))).

There is a settler and a warrior in the galley outside of Kufah. They should be able to make it to our western lands next turn. I considered swapping Mecca from a library (to a galley), but that would waste about 6 shields next turn. The next leader can decide what they would like to do (it might be a good idea to switch as we really do need more galleys to explore...) If we are able to produce galleys out of any city :confused:, Fastat could produce one in 4 turns and Anjar in 6. These are probably the best locations because few shields will be wasted, and if we were to produce a galley out of Mecca, it would take at least 4-6 turns to get it to these locations so that we can start some serious exploration...

Also, I completely forgot about whipping temples... [pimp] The next leader might want to consider doing that in Merw as soon as it has accumulated 10 shields towards its temple (it should be size 2 by then; in 6 turns). I also forgot to do something with our scout... :smoke: He is currently en route to the Mecca area (or wherever the next ship will be built...) to hop on the next ship built.

Math is due in 3 turns (-2 gpt, 112 gold in our coffers). Choosing to research Mathematics was very weedy, but, I thought that perhaps we might have contacted someone by now... We really need to 1) get contact with the other civilizations soon, or 2) get the Great Library, so we can catch up on ancient era techs quickly and cheaply... I don't think we need to worry too much about losing the Great Lighthouse (should we desire to get it; if so, we should might want to begin building it...) because I don't think any of the AIs have Map Making (going on the assumption that there are no barb galleys unless at least one AI has Map Making. Is this assumption correct?).

Interestingly, we are first in terms of population and land area! (from the F11 screen) However, we are 8th in terms of literacy, suggesting that other civilizations may be competing with us for the Great Library...

At this point, I can't really think of anything else... The file can be found at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-310BC.zip

JMB

Zed-F

Dec 27, 2002, 12:00 AM

A couple points about the rules:
- The first build in EVERY city must be a temple (Temple rule)
so the island town must build a temple before worker
- No non-cultural bldg can be started if there is a cultural choice
available in that city (Culture rule) so we should not be swapping away from Library to other non-critical things (like galleys or MP...) -- remember, you're going for 100k victory, you need lots of early culture
- Luxury slider permanently set to 10% (Tithe rule) -- part of the point of this scenario is to see how well we can manage things with only limited lux tax (everyone knows how to manage happiness with unrestricted lux tax, let's learn something new) -- besides, we don't want our people to grow soft and coddled with too much lux now do we?

Someone want to post an updated map?

Charis

Dec 27, 2002, 01:30 AM

Oh great merciful bounty from heaven!! The cleric JMB has found the land spoken of by the prophets of old! It is "Prophet's Isle," lost island of the Holy Lands! No wonder we could not comfortably fit 24 glorious cities on our mainland - there is room for 5 on the Prophet's Isle! This new land should be treated in all respects as part of the Holy Land, settle there with tremendous haste! Let the people whip themselves into a zealous frenzy with great projects like Temples, Libraries and Ambitheatres!

A joyous day for our nation, blessings to JMB. And our thanks to the cleric Zed who has rightly divided the truth! Our tithe is indeed fixed for all time, and the approved method for helping the people is through "Offering Collectors", "Scholars" and "Revival Speakers" who heathen refer to as taxmen, and entertainers. The people must not be 'coddled'! Also true, do not switch off a cultural building. And who knows, maybe we have been guided into the choice of Mathematics (on the surface quite inferior to studies in theism of course!).

Minor tips... work forest tile in Aleppo to speed temple finish, Medina should do Library in spite of need for more MP, likewise slip one in at Damascus (but settling Prophet's Isle is a sufficient reason to wait a short bit), whip the Library in Basra and similar towns, when down to 20 shields left. Finally, let "Yamama" learn how to read :D

Theocracy, er... Monarchy, sounds much better than western forms of representative government!

Here are pictures of our entire Holy Land...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-HL310BC.jpg

Note - the one unworked tile - it will be the future home of "Voice of Arabia" a great radio transmitter (whatever that is!) to bring the words of hope to people of all lands, and to strengthen the resolve and defense of those in its radius. It shall be "the voice of one calling in the desert!"

And a close up of our Prophet's Isle - be sure we get a total of 24 cities between the two. Some thoughts on locations are shown (and please take as suggestions, not prophecy :P )

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Island310BC.jpg

Who now will lead what may be the most important era of our nation, the rapid settling of Prophet's Isle?!

Abu-Charis

ToddMarshall

Dec 27, 2002, 08:06 AM

Look at that map closely. There is a coastal tile peeking out from under the fog above Fustat. Kursan finishs its library in 4. If we can't switch to galley now, then get a galley our from there as soon as the library finishes even if we have to whip it! (I dont suppose given we KNOW there is an island there we could invoke a spreading the word of Abu-C doctrine and make an exception in this one case :(. No? Didnt think so :( )

Skim a worker off Medina before going on to the library, the 6th guy is a specialist anyway and we are dying for workers to irrigate all those plains tiles!

Mathematics?? hmmmm. OK, thats diffrent.... I was rather hoping for Polytheisim then a 1 scientist run at Monarchy (we know we are way behind in tech and we need money to start buying them eventually, especailly as we may not get around to ever building many markets.

One thought. The library could turn out to be a curse if we get it. What happens if we pop chivalry from it almost immediately. We will have to immediately decalre war on somone, possibly without even knowledge as to where they are :(.

Honestly, I really wish we'd gone poly, because i sort of suspect that Hanging Gardens might be a better wonder given our happiness situation anyhow and it seems very likely to me that we will find SOMONE up there on that other island. (It would be really surprising to me if we didn't at least).

Charis

Dec 27, 2002, 12:45 PM

The Abu sent for his scribes and teachers of the law to discern how to respond in the face of both Prophet's Isle and this new land where it is suspected there will be those who need to hear the word...

> - No non-cultural bldg can be started if there is a cultural choice
> available in that city (Culture rule)

So careful is the crafting of the ancient laws! Only a non-cultural building is disallowed, not critical ships that will carry the word (and later our Ansar Warriors) out to far away lands. If our next leader has a vision to build a galley before library, he may do so. (Just don't 'crank' them and ignore the library)

Praise be the merciful as well as the keen eyes of Marshall for discovering this great new opportunity. Just do NOT neglect the founding of the Prophet's Isle - it's the first priority for settling and building culture - although a beachhead on the island above could help. Looking at the map it seems that
three or four galleys could blockade our lands from invasion. Too many ships to do now, but something to keep in mind.

Best wishes to our next leader!
Abu Charis

Sirian

Dec 27, 2002, 02:00 PM

Profits Isle?!? WOOHOO! [party] Yes, I, Abu-alFerengi, will step up immediately to secure our acquisition of Profits Isle! :crazyeye: :lol:

- Sirian

ToddMarshall

Dec 27, 2002, 05:30 PM

Maniac sends Abu-alFerengi a vision to build the galley and hopes he takes heed ;). Btw, what did you have to pay the editor to come up with what seems to be virtually the perfect map for this scenareo?

I think we should eventually get arround to building that 19th city anyway (after the islands). 18 + 5 = 23. Didn't the ancient writings say we would have 24 cities in the holy land?

Sirian

Dec 27, 2002, 06:05 PM

Word to the Wise: Never question the validity of the Ancient Writings! :whipped:

IT 310BC: Abu-alFerengi, a wise man rising up through the ranks of the new mathematicians and learned men, is swept into power of the mosque at Najran when he throws an absolute fit over the construction of the great library. "No, no, no! You idiots! We don't want to gather the learned works of the infidels! We want to carry our holy wisdom to them so that they may join us in our enlightenment!" After making an example of some who would blaspheme the great Him in this manner, the great project was redirected to make a gloriously grand tower reaching up to the very skies, to invite His Light to shine down and guide the way for our brave sailors and missionaries embarking for distant lands. "This is how we shall become inspired to heights of greater worthiness!" So it was written.

Missionaries (settlers) ordered up in Baghdad and Anjar, while ships directed to be built at Fustat.

290BC: NOOOOO!!! The vile Persians have constructed a Lighthouse! Abu-alFerengi sinks into a deep depression, muttering about "Now it will be eons before we can conduct safe trade within the Holy Land, across the sea to Profits Isle." Reluctantly, the Great Library project is resumed. Spearmen (from Medina, of course) redeploy to Khurasan, where the population is growing rapidly.

270BC: Missionaries land on Profits Isle.

250BC: Mathematics discovered. Abu-alFerengi is pleased that there is now a system in place to explain the concepts he has understood all his life. His vision now is that this new system of numbers be put in place to improve trade. He orders the wisemen to pursue the mysteries of trade, markets, and currency. One day, Profits Isle shall be the envy of all mankind, a land so holy that pilgrims will trek there from all over the world.

230BC: The holy city of Balkh is founded on Profits Isle. Galleys are completed at Fustat. Temple completed at Aleppo. Damascus starts library. Khurasan library completed, starts harbor. Spears sent to guard the holiest city of Mecca. Medina starts library, due in ten (with help from one lumberjack).

210BC: Library at Kufah, starts harbor. Our unarmed missionaries have located a tribe called the Cherokee.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-210bc.jpg

190BC: Apparently, the Cherokee are a minor tribe. Our missionaries report them unreceptive to The Word. However, we have also encountered a people called Aztecs, and they have introduced us to four other civilizations. Our missionaries are unbelievably excited!

Um... hmm, this is odd. ALL of these civilizations possess major bodies of knowledge that we lack. How can this be?

Abu-alFerengi mortgages our entire economy for the next twenty cycles, obtaining contacts with all other civs (we're LAST to the trading table), and a complete world map. An embassy was established with one of our closer neighbors, the Spanish, who seem receptive to the Word and have good relations with us. (They are the ones who sold us most of our map information, too). India is also polite and receptive, fellow brothers in peace. The rest... we'll have to see about the rest. Lots of dour faces out there. China, also somewhat backward like ourselves, was willing to trade us some knowledge for our now extensive maps. There are unclaimed jungle lands between Azteca and Spain. Holy lands, perhaps? Perhaps. (I suppose we need a prophet of the likes of Abu-Charis to determine these things).

Oh, by the way, there are about a thousand civs building a "great library". I tried, but there is no way to speed our ETA. That may be a very pricey regular library here shortly.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-190bc.jpg

170BC: Damascus and Khurasan swapped to settlers. Merw completes temple. Mecca completes library, starts barracks.

150BC: A minor tribe has taught us horseback riding! Unfortunately, our missionaries are not having as much luck with the Cherokee. Meanwhile, the holy city of Mosul has been founded.

130BC: Our missionaries were slaughtered by the vile Cherokee! This has become a holy site. We must defeat the wicked Cherokee and build a great mosque in the jungle in honor of these fallen martyrs!

The holy city of Aydab has been founded. We have established an embassy with the friendly Chinese people. This warrior race seems receptive to the Word.

70BC: The HOLY city of Missionary Mosque has been formed on the site where our peaceful missionaries were martyred. The evil Cherokee were so awed by our holiness that they have dispersed their settlement! We have established an embassy with mighty Egypt, second in glory only to our own.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-70bc.jpg

50BC: Barracks completed in Mecca. The Cherokee riders have fled from the holy site of Missionary Mosque without a fight. Surely they understand the grave sins they have committed.

10BC: Our warriors chase down the cowardly Cherokee and put an end to their reign of terror. The holy city of Suhar has been founded, completing our two dozen holy land sites. Profits Isle stands completely settled now, every inch of its land contained within our borders, as foreseen by the great teacher Abu-Charis.

10AD: Disaster! The Aztecs have completed their Great Library with only one turn due on ours. The Iro's immediately took out the Gardens on the cascade. How painful is this? ONE TURN! All is not yet lost, though. We now have enough cities to increase the cost of a palace to 600 shields. We have another 25 turns in which to buy ourselves up to Sistine Chapel technology. Oh, and perhaps this is meant to be, as He has granted our prayers and already boosted our knowledge, thanks to the friendly Cuman tribe!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-10ad.jpg

Also, map brokering brings in some revenues, which allow us to purchase currency from India. We now have only three techs we need for Sistine: Polytheism, Construction, and Theology. Feudalism and SunTzu is another alternative.

The city of Taif has been founded. This is our first non-holy city. We beat the Celts to the area by half a turn. Also, we have an iron deposit in the holy land.

30AD: Our wounded spears are running interference (politely engaging the Celts in religious dialogues) near Taif, while our own settlers head deeper into the jungle.

50AD: Our settlers' escorts fight off some hostile Mayans. The age of Abu-alFerengi comes to an end. We are flat broke, with eight more turns of payments on most of our deals. With luck, we can manage to build something out of that mass of shields we have stored up. Remember, Missionary Mosque is holy ground! The rest of the holy land is contained in the homeland and Profits Isle. I did what I could to further the great cause. The good news, of course, is that our culture is naturally so impressive, the whole world stands in awe!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-50ad.jpg

So why are there no lux on our home continent? Did Charis edit the map? :) Oh, and never question the ancient writings! :whipped: :lol:

RBP3 - 50AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-arabs-50ad.zip)

- Sirian

ToddMarshall

Dec 27, 2002, 08:46 PM

Nice turn and fabulous luck on the Palace going to 25 more turns just in time! If we can manage to get to Sistine in time, that could be the absolute BEST thing that happened!!! Unfortunately, the cascade didn't die for us :(. Several people are now working on Sun Tsu's :(.

One nit though. Hopefully you didn't pay too much for those contacts... Most likely you'd have gotten nearly all of them free from the Aztecs trading contact with you to everyone with 30 gold or more :(. In ptw, i like to buy one, thus killing the monopoly on you and making them trade contact with you like wildfire on the next 1-2 AI turns.

Actually 2 nits! You played more than 10 turns :p, but I'm guessing that as you had a profound mission to accomplish Abu-C may forgive the profit seeking feringi.

Charis

Dec 27, 2002, 10:00 PM

Most glorious progress!! We have moved from a backward people to the forefront of culture and knowledge, the Abu-alFenengi was most wise and cunning!

As always, current events and circumstances move us to re-evaluation our interpretations. (Of course this is no doubt whatsoever in the value and truthfulness of the ancient writings, but as imperfect beings we must look carefully at ourselves and how we interpret)

The words did seem to speak of Holy Lands all to ourselves and unfettered by foreign influence, and the mainland and Prophets Isle fit that description. What we do not know is.... have we grieved ourselves by not founding on the non-overlapped desert tile, the future home of the Voice of Arabia?? Surely that site though it knows no city bounds is part of our Holy Land!? And yet... the blood spilt by our FIRST martyrs cannot ever be forgotten...

Until it is made clear otherwise then, here shall be our sign --
If the cultural border of Missionary Mosque integrate with that of the mainland, it is TRULY part of our Holy Land, with all privileges and rights thereof. If it is razed or captured before locking borders, it will be the event that marks the start of our Crusade, but it will also be a sign we have forsaken the voice of him in the desert. Fate will soon make this clear, as Fustat and the Mosque both near completion of religious cultural institutions.

Although the missing of the library by a mere one turn is galling (in act, the Abu's draw did drop on hearing this!), it is also clearly a sign that coming by such knowledge by infidel would be heinously wrong and would taint such knowledge. It is truly a blessing in disguise! All the more so if we can build the great Mosque of Al-Sistine! Abu-alFerengi was wise to be the first to see this.

> He orders the wisemen to pursue the mysteries of trade,
> markets, and currency. One day, Profits Isle shall be the envy
> of all mankind, a land so holy that pilgrims will trek there from
> all over the world.

Although his spelling is MOST unusual! :lol:
It is good that some among the holy men do not neglect the realm of trade and good stewardship.

> There are unclaimed jungle lands between Azteca and Spain.
> Holy lands, perhaps? Perhaps. (I suppose we need a prophet
> of the likes of Abu-Charis to determine these things).

There is a sense in which all land where we exert influence is holy, of course, but our homelands and 'given lands' have a special nature and character. We will spread the word and extent our boundaries, but the taint of being originally surrounded or founded by infidels puts all that land in a different category. Some have gone so far as to call these 'other' areas "Crusade Lands"
Their 'proper' term is "Expansion Cities", of which Taif is the first.

Speaking of crusade... the menacing encroachment on our Missionary Mosque by the Aztecs, and their stealing away the Great Library, have led some in the court to view them as potential enemies which will see our first crusade. The situation
may dictate otherwise, but early impressions suggest that the lands currently inhabited by the mean green machine would do FAR better to be very densely populated with Arabian temples and mosques and libraries.

Oh, and never question the ancient writings!

Well said!

Who then will lead us in this great era?? Seeking the al-Sistine mosque, seeing whether the Holy city of "Missionary Mosque" can fuse borders with Fustat, and bringing us to the verge of Chivalry, these are exciting times!!

On the extra turns, he was following a common convention (though not mentioned here) - a 40-20-15 sequence before we shift into 10-turn mode, especially when REX'ing. We should shift into 10-turn modes here, but if there something dire that needs 1 to 5 more turns, go ahead in this game.

Abu-Charis

PS -
> So why are there no lux on our home continent? Did Charis
> edit the map?
...
> Btw, what did you have to pay the editor to come up with what
> seems to be virtually the perfect map for this scenareo?

Surely there is lack of faith here!! :lol:
Actually, no editing. No removal of lux. In fact... I was somewhat dismayed to see no lux, and none even on the island. Also, I missed seeing the currents north and thought we might be stuck. What I did was generate several maps and go for several turns, not so much for a 'good' start but as one that 'fit' the theme, and that had enough space for 24 cities. This was one of the first maps I generated, and the island was a surprise - I was expecting and hoping to be part of a continent, but when it seemed enough to hold 20-ish cities, it became a 'go'. Prophets Isle is a surprise too, as I hadn't gone that far. The Aztec land belt is somewhat ideal too as far as semi-contiguous expansion with room for many cities. Feel free to pack them in nearly ICS, 2 and 3 steps, outside the Holy Land. If we expand and denselyl fill all the way to the chokepoint to the west, that will probably be all the cities we need in the game, and the way the rest carry out will be for fun and RPG, there will not be a need to build 80-100 cities. Pack 32-40 cities in the Aztec area and we're "Golden".
(Of course, wanting to spread the word we won't stop there, but it will be ad lib not out of necessity)

PPS I agree fully with Marshall on contacts in PtW. Buying a first one to get out of monopoly is critical, but I've never seen further contacts wait more than a VERY short while once you do that.

PPPS Sistine would indeed be better than sliced bread in this game! Do anything (legal) needed to help snag it!!

Sirian

Dec 27, 2002, 11:14 PM

All the civs that could pay for the contact had already done so. I paid for the other half, then brokered our world map to every civ on the planet and started playing map broker. Besides pulling in all the territory maps this way, I probably also netted another 200g or more, ultimately paying us back for what the rest of the world map initially cost us. I would have gotten even more out of the trading, except I expected the great library to come in for us. When it did not, I sure was glad I bought all the cheapest techs, and we got two pricier techs out of huts.

My math was also off. Not sure why I was thinking we were scientific. We'll also need Monotheism, so we're four techs short of Sistine, three short of SunTzu. As for the math on my turn, I wanted to complete my mission of finishing the holy lands (the inherited turn was an odd date, so I straightened it out by going long, instead of playing short), as well as the fact that I had to stick around to avenge the martyred missionaries. (Uh... man in the desert? Was I supposed to leave him there? THAT was the missionary who got martyred on the foreign soil). That was such a heinous occurance, it had to be corrected. So anyway, if the "last holy city" was tied to the "man in the desert", then that's precisely what happened, as Missionary Mosque is built on the very tile where he perished.

I'm glad Abu-Charis found my results... palatable. :love: Now, I can't wait for the cha-ching from Profits Isle! :D

- Sirian

Charis

Dec 27, 2002, 11:43 PM

The man in the desert founded Missionary Mosque??!

That was no less than Al-Henna, one of the most outward looking clerics the nation has ever seen! :worshp:

Surely he went up North to share the word, and to collect the dyes there for special 'henna' craftsmanship! Rare indeed are the dyes and great is their value! Surely it will bring much happiness (and much-needed happiness!) to the people back home!

Let us hope we can live in peace with our new Aztec neighbors...
:slay:

For if they, or anyone, lays a finger on the glorious site founded by Al-Henna...
:saiyan:

Abu Charis

ToddMarshall

Dec 28, 2002, 01:04 AM

As you play around more and more in ptw, you WILL see I was right about lux not being so evenly distributed as it was in vanilla. There it was a virtual given outside of the tinyest maps where sometimes it couldn't fit the lux in that you would start with one. And on regular sized maps with 8 civs, you allways in my experience had an exact 1:1 ratio between # of civs on landmass and # of lux there.

In fact, i used to count lux as I went exploring heh. I'd say hmmmmm, ive seen 5 lux and only 4 civs on this landmass, so where is the 5th most likely to be hiding and rushed exploration that direction on occasion. Maybe this is one reason why lux isnt really dependibly evenly distributed now.....

I had annother "continents" map the other day on standard size world. I had to practically ICS my island to get 9 cities in, had no lux, and by the time i poped mapmaking, found India accross a one tile gap on an "island" 5 times the size of mine with...... no lux either :(. Turns out the other 6 civs were supercontinented with all 8 lux on their continent :(.

Sirian

Dec 30, 2002, 08:31 AM

The up side to Open SG's is that they can move very quickly, when folks are juiced. The down side is that they can move slowly without a scheduled player for the hotseat. I know it's the Christian holidays and all, but Ramadan is over! We should break our fast! From whence shall emerge our next leader in this exciting time of advancement?

Abu alFerengi

JMB

Dec 31, 2002, 08:01 PM

I was wondering the same thing... I am interested in this game, but think it is a little early for me to pick it up again as I just played right before you (Sirian).

Perhaps some of the people who helped start the game would like to grab it in the near future so that the game doesn't get buried...

JMB

Griselda

Dec 31, 2002, 10:50 PM

So it was written, in the days of old:

"Griselda, Carbon and Zed pre-signed up and no one should grab it a second time before they've got it at least once"

I've followed the lead of prophet Abu-Charis here. He has not directly led the people for a second time, so I had assumed that nobody else should, either.

An advantage is that there have been lots of players participating, but some more momentum might be helpful. Perhaps it is time for some "creative reinterpretation" of the ancient texts? ;)

-Griselda

Charis

Dec 31, 2002, 11:22 PM

It is a glorious New Year in the glorious Holy Lands of Arabia!!

:band:

Thus endeth the 'first round'. It's now open to all without restriction. Come lead us to glory, and have a good New Years' Day!

Abu Charis (who's finishing up another SG game on New Years)

Skyfish

Jan 01, 2003, 09:40 AM

Got it !

Ben-Skyfish the Ignorant will hopefully not destroy everything the great Al Ferengi piously built...

Skyfish

Jan 01, 2003, 02:38 PM

Coming after the Great Al-Sirian-Ferengi was a pleasure, everything was right on tracks, nothing special to do.

50ad : set one taxman (in Mecca) to scientist in order to have min science on Construction.
70ad: Aztecs building Sun Tzu ! Some lone stupid Viking founded a city where Al-Ferengi indicated a preferred site (:-( The Great One will be mad...
Oh no ! What are we to do now ? No-one to help poor Ben-Skyfish...we Will just make sure we grab some dyes then...as we are short of those Luxuries that make us so happy..
Hama founded. Khurasan rather pay more tithes than have riots on their hands. Also the pious people of Aydab rather sacrifice one of them rather than be without a place of worship. What a devoted and faithful people the land of Arabia has !
90ad : Some worker movements, nothing special. The learned followers of Mansura also execute some of their bad seeds instead of missing out on the great knowledge a Library can bring.
110ad: Muscat builds barracks, switch to Soukh. Hama is threatened by Barbarians : one warrior and one Horseman. Hopefully a Spanish archer will help our Land of Faith get
rid of them.
130ad : Mansura completes a Library and starts a Courthouse as the people feel Mecca is too far and there is too much crime around the village.
The Barbarian warrior is killed by our Spanish archer friend, long live the Iberians !
150ad : The great people of Arabia praise their Imams : they start to build Abu Bakr's Palace ! The Barbatrian Horseman flees towards a Spanish city.
No civilization wishes to trade knowledge with us. They certainly fear our huge and beautiful culture, hahaha.
170ad: The Barbarian horseman is killed by a Celt spearman. Hama is safe ! Praise Allah !
190ad : Kufah completes a Harbor, and switches to Soukh. Aden completes a Library, switching to Harbor. Bakh builds a holy worker. Yamana gets boost in production from the hard labour of our Forest people.
Suhar sacrifices some of its people for a Mosque.
210ad : Our long time hatred ennemy, The Persians, are building Sun Tzu's war academy. Few or our Workers are busy bringing water to our Holy desert Sahara and the western part of the Holy Land.
This year some of our previous deals end. Let's see what we can get... Construction is available at 13gpt + all our treasury (40)+ WM. After much indecision, we go for Polytheism
at 7 gpt + 33g from India. Remembered Abu Charis advice on Theocracy...Republic is not available (neither Monarchy), also could not get both Contruction and Polytheism.
Baghdad need ssome attention as we'll get some unrest soon. Our followers there seem to fear some "bowls of fire falling from the Sky", our messenger could not be clearer...
230ad : The Celts and Japan are also starting to build this Sun Tzu academy. Two Workers are sent to Prophets island by galley.
250ad : All is calm and quiet in the Holy Land...before the storm ?

For my humble descendant :
- left some Soukhs as pre-builds for possible Settlers if Abu-Charis or Al-Ferengi feel we must go on with a peacecful landgrab. My feeling was that the only land left is bad jungle,
and since we have our Holy Land of 24 cities, we will follow expansion by Crusades (Chivalry is just round the corner...)
- Techs : we need to get Theology in 15 turns in order to get Sistine's Great Mosque, so we need to buy techs ASAP : I guess 13 gpt is OK for Construction but Republic & Monarchy will also be really expensive..
We need expert advice on this.

It was a great honour and pleasure to Lead the Holy people of Arabia as Ben-Skyfish the Ignorant and hope the Land is not too much worse off.

Yours piously,

Ben-Skyfish

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_250_AD.SAV

Sirian

Jan 01, 2003, 05:03 PM

My advice would be to forget republic completely (representative govts need to use that lux slider a lot) and skip monarchy until we have Sistine secured. Might go to democracy after monarchy, once nav tech opens up sea lanes for us to import enough goods to overcome the three lost MP's, at least. Also good to get going on those cathedrals right away, and especially to build them AHEAD of libraries in all towns without a library completed, as we get same culture at same cost but more benefit. I don't know how much of our own research we'll be doing -- might be worth it sometimes if we have libraries and unis but no banks -- but once we get to where we can buy one tech and trade it for one or two more, we'll be in good shape.

Cartouche Bee

Jan 03, 2003, 10:41 AM

OK, no takers yet so I got it.

I'll try for a little more color commentary in the write up. ;)

Cartouche Bee

Jan 04, 2003, 07:38 PM

I'm a little later than I hoped posting back but a couple of kids birthday parties and such were of great cultural importance.

It is with heavy heart that I see we have fallen prey to the infidels. My scribes inform me that they chiseled us out of 60% of our income. They have led us into the trap of following their desires and our people must be educated to behave with their faith more in mind during their daily life. We will send informal emissaries to enhance our friendly feeling to those that we wish to convert to our way of life. This period of negotiated peace will allow us to conduct affairs with more focus on our primary goals.

We pay Spain 18GPT for right of passage? Peace is renegotiated and they give 117 gold and right of passage free.
We give China peace, 155 gold and 1GPT for construction.
After the round of negotiation we have 118 gold and making 41GPT.

Although I could pay about 30 gold per turn to get monotheism and then be strapped to complete theology in time to save the current palace production at Najran, I decide to increase science to 70% which would allow me to get monotheism in 9 turns or less and then buy theology giving me about 3 or 4 turns to spare to complete Sistine. The risk is great but our determination for the cause is greater. If we lose the race to Sistine we do have a chance to get Sun Tzu as a fall back.

I review the build orders of the cities to ensure the focus of this monumental endeavor.
Basara, building a granary but it cannot grow until our under lying mood is improved. Changed to coliseum, prebuild for cathedral?
Baghdad, harbor changed to coliseum, prebuild for cathedral?
Aden, harbor changed to coliseum, prebuild for cathedral?
Khurasan, harbor changed to coliseum, prebuild for cathedral?

260AD - Mecca reverts to military police production

Destruction of assets for the cause! Over spending with us being so far behind in techs will not help us catch up.
Baghdad, Damascus - granary
Muscat - Barracks

270AD - Egypt builds Sun Tzu - There is no cascade to Sistine that is good and bad, hope it's available in time.

280AD - workers are prepared for the journey to Missionary Mosque.

290AD - selling world map provides enough cash to up the research rate to 80%, 4 more turns!

310AD- Mosul size 2 goes to disorder, caught me off guard. :(

330AD - Monotheism is finally discovered. No one has Theology! Minimal science on engineering commences.

340AD- Egypt starts Sistine chapel! We buy Theology from China for 100 and 28 GPT. Najran changed to Sistine chapel.

It's pretty standard turns to Sistine, so completed the task.

390AD Sistine has been completed.

The infidels are extremely crafty, in the end they have cornered me into a 28 GPT deal but I'm hoping that it will pay off by greatly enhancing our ability to acheive our goals. We already have 8 cathedrals completed and many more on the way.

The future path has become more focused and if we can complete some coliseums before we get education we will perhaps be able to afford to fund the universities in larger cities once they have aqueducts. Of course coliseums in the works will be good fodder for Great Wonders. Although we have had little success in religious conversions and some scribes are heard to be teaching more aggressively effective means of delivering the message to the infidels.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_390_AD.SAV

Charis

Jan 04, 2003, 08:00 PM

The Imam Cartouche has led us to glory!! The magnificent Mosque of al-Sistine is truly a beacon of light and hope in a dark and dreary land!

The people can now worship in great joy: :worshp:

Good job switching the harbors to colloseums. **ALL** cities
should, with Construction, be working on colloseums with all imaginable haste - even more so now with Mosques (Cathedrals). Perhaps some people will sacrifice themselves for these glorious projecs. After as much 'sacrifice' as the people can stand, we should likely head to Monarchy. Although allowing the people to be frenetic up all the way to Democracy would be 'different'.

The humble Abu Charis would be pleased to oversee the next set of turns. ("got it") Some leader soon will have the great privilege of leading our first crusade. (If someone doesn't "prepare" for that first it will be an ugly crusade :P )

Your Servant,
Abu Charis

Charis

Jan 05, 2003, 02:22 AM

Abu Charis returned from his time in the mountains, seeking direction from
the merciful one. On his return, he found out with great joy of the
teaching of Theology and the construction of the glorious al-Sistine Mosque!

He took the reigns for ten seasons, to help guide the people.

On review of the Holy Land and colonies, he saw the following...
- The Holy Land was secure and full of peace. The only disturbing thing was that
the cultural borders of the Holy Land did not yet lock with Missionary Mosque
(they had with glorious Prophets' Isle)
- In fact, Missionary Mosque is in trouble, with no harbor possible until it has
built library, colloseum, cathedral (and probably university!!), at 1 spt!
- The economy was in decent shape (for despotism), with four marketplaces
- Militarily, actually average compared to Aztecs, with 49 of 104 allowed units
- Er.. the Aztecs are dead last! Surely they are MOST in need of hearing of our faith!!
* Glorious Arabia is second in world ranking!!! Praise be!! (Dominant culture too)
- We have nine cathedrals and ten libraries among our 26 cities
- We're first in land area (must check RoP status), last in income and... approval?
- Prophets' Isle is wildly unprotected. This is inviting the heathen to err!

The Abu thinks over the choice of Engineering as a research path. It made no sense
to him. Running 40turns for a tech everyone already has instead of one that no one
has or that is expensive. Still, he had faith there was a reason for this oddness.
Then it struck him. Workers could then plant forests and chop them down to build
glorious projects in the most corrupt cities! So we do want Engineering, definitely,
as well as Education and at some point, head to Chivalry. Can we somehow get together
the cash to buy all these good techs? We must get off the scientist on Engr, however,
and we try this instead...

Why on earth does Japan deals say peace treaty due to expire in 6? Skyfish?
Aztecs too? Was there a war or extortion or something? 14 turns ago?
Who else? Oh my, Iroquois too, and Spain, and China, and Persia, and Celts. ???

It's easier to say who's NOT got peace treatly timespan - Egypt and India, that's it!

Tech-wise, all civs seem at complete parity, with Repub, Monarchy, Feudalism, Engr.
The Abu decides on research. Printing Press in 40! It's required for Democracy,
and most likely to see us come in first. If nothing else, it's double the cost of
Engr, which we can cheaply buy when needed. I would pick Education but expect most
AI to have that, and probably quite soon. (Cartouche, in your rush to get Theology,
you didn't pay monopoly second civ price for it did you? It was sure to circulate to
almost all civs and become MUCH cheaper over the next few turns! Or if you did,
how did the brokering go? The purchase of it was a great move, but the timing?)

* Get to Music Theory quickly and have a prebuild, as Bach's would be AMAZINGLY
helpful for us this game! *

[0] 390 AD - Some minor changes, things are looking quite good
- Kufah from mktplace to cathedral
- Switch Engineering to Printing Press

[1] 400 AD - Kufah's mosque is whipped by a devoted citizen!
This turn, as last, Abu-C the itinerant goes door-to-door to all nations' leaders,
selling his map (and giving words of faith and hope). Netting a bonus +11gpt.
That's like 50% increase to our income :P It also keeps us abreast of new technology.

When to get Monarchy? It's quite needed, but also pricey. Abu hopes to get in early
on some new tech and use it to broker and pick up Monarchy rather than pay cash.

[2] 410 AD - The sound of many forest trees crashing rings in this turn.
Hama is hit by disease. Sad... those missionaries lead such rough lives!

Fustat's border expands, as if reaching out for Missionary Mosque! *SO* close now!

[3] 420 AD - Vikings are building "Leo", whoever that is! Seven civs are doing so.
Mecca's grand cathedral completes, and to make the people of Prophet's Isle
happy, it starts an MP or two.

[4] 430 AD - Jungle clearing at Missionary Mosque reveals a BG tile, praise be!
Workers want to convert another cattle from irrigation to mining.
Fustats' mosque is whipped.

[5] 440 AD - Merw's mosque double whipped, so energetic are its citizens!
Medina mms to get 10spt, it and Mecca try to get Colloseum done quick to
produce direly needed horses. Shiraz' mosque is also whipped.

[6] 450 AD - Time for... peace renegotiations? It was Peace (1 turn) last time,
now almost all are plain 'peace' with no conditions or time limits. The Aztecs
are currently paying 5gpt for peace, so we'll not bring it up (they will no doubt)
The Spanish have RoP tied in with the peace deal. Xerces is paying 2pt, we're paying
China 1gpt?

First lets disconnect peace from RoP. Isabella will pay 70gold for peace?? Or
even better, will discount Monarchy 120g off its normal price?? Wow, ok,
we'll buy Monarchy for 130g+12gpt. No wait, make that 90g by us throwing the
RoP back in! :) And she's polite after that gouging?? Culture rocks!

Persia was giving 2gpt for peace, now politely gives us a free worker and WM?
Aztecs were giving 5gpt for peace, now give 3gpt+38g+WM?! Uh, ok.
We were paying China 1gpt for peace, now he pays us WM+40?

Abu is confused. The nations are literally throwing their tribute to us,
a nation with less-than-cardboard-cutouts for military? Rather than horde
our gold, lets get some more embassies, especially with annoyed countries.
Persia - Persepolis is on wealth (!) making 11spt. 3 pike garrison.
Japan - Kyoto making settler, 9spt, 4 pikes. It has the Great wall, rax, mkt, coloss.
Aztecs - Teno has rax, temple and Great Lib, making Knight at 7gpt, 4 pikes.
Celts - Entremont has 11spt, 5pike, 1 MDI, 1 Knight garrison (eep)

Persia is now polite, would pay its whole 14g for ROP. We give Toku ROP for WM+6g.
We give ROP for just WM to the broke Aztecs, to move them from cautious to polite.
We make a near even ROP with Celts to make them polite too. Our new WM goes around for 80g!

Before all this mess, we were 313g+12gpt, now one tech and four embassies later, 168g-3gpt.
No reason not to revolt to Monarchy immediately... hmmm... the sacrifice of the people.
Most obvious and effective whips have been done by now. It's time for the people
to learn to sacrifice more of their time and money, not their sweat! Revolt!

Doing so the people are quite neutral except in Najran and Muscat.

[7] 460 AD - Treasury now 132g+8gpt, and our productivity is up, good deal.
There's also opportunity now for an extra MP in cities that need it.

Selling the WM is helping not just the economy - I catch Egypt showing up just
now with Education. Also India, Spain, Celts, China. Can we afford it, to broker?
Not even close! 8-| Shoot, in a normal game this is precisely how we would
reach parity. Instead, we're just backward here, with lack of strong income.

(IBT) China asks for an ROP to strengthen ties. Can't get more, so ok. Now polite.

[8] 470 AD - Quiet turn.

[9] 480 AD - Taif expands! This pulls in the Dyes which Vitoria of spain poached.
Speaking of which, a longbow just stepped out of that city. 8-\

[10] 490 AD - Two cultural expansion on Prophet's Isle, and the people want to
expand the palace. BTW, we have 50 of 54 allowed units, so the support allotment
for Monarchy is just right for our current size worker force (but low for our
desired Ansar army!)

(IBT) It seems the Spanish archers are going past us somewhere west. The Aztecs
request an alliance vs Iro, but we decline. (They would 'almost' give Feudalism, btw!)

[11, to even out the years] 500 AD - Glorious Baghdad is our first city with 'all 4'
temple, library, cathedral, colosseum. It starts aqueduct (may be univ. prebuild?)

We're now at 203g+1gpt, still no way to buy Education.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-500AD-StatusMap.jpg

To next leader... enjoy your new Monarchy government!
- The Iro and Aztecs are the two low-end dogs fighting. Keep an
eye on them come crusade time, and see if Aztec paying us a tech for alliance
makes sense someday when we don't have 9 undefended cities (cough!!)
The top dogs are Egypt, who is expanding, and next is India. If those two fight,
would be a good thing.

- The high cost of new tech may mean after Education we'll need to research
Music Theory ourselves to have a shot at Bach.
- We have MAJOR issues with being wholy undefended, and have zero horsemen
to upgrade into glorious Ansars
- Our bigger issue is tech backwardness, and economic sluggishness

Who will help us rise from this morass?

Save File 500AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-500AD.zip)

Abu Charis heads back to the mountains to contemplate...

Cartouche Bee

Jan 05, 2003, 03:22 AM

Abu Charis,

Those peace treaties that renewed in 6 turns were because I took 14 turns. I had required funds for research projects. :) No peace treaty with India? probably cause they had nothing to offer when I made the rounds. ;) Egypt is too strong, looking at the power chart (almost have to measure pixels for that one but they seem to be leading the tech race also), to hope for negotiated peace that they would pay for.

The 1gpt that China was paying us was the remnant for the 1 GPT that I was paying them for construction.

Egypt has started the Sistine Chapel and I bought Theology from China (our less dominant friend) so I don't think that I paid a too premium of a price, didn't seem much more than feudalism but I could have held off a bit but opted to get the pain of the deal over ASAP. :)

Sirian

Jan 05, 2003, 05:01 AM

Abu Charis complains of economic sluggishness? Abu alFerengi emerges from his retreat on Profits Isle. :wavey:

(got it)

Sirian

Jan 05, 2003, 10:10 AM

"Why is this called Profits Isle, oh wise one?"

Abu alFerengi grunted. "Never you mind that, now."

"But... aside from the expansion colonies deep in the jungle, this is the most corrupt place in all of Arabia!"

alFerengi glared at the youngster. "You speak with the tongue of an infidel: ignorant and foolish. Profits Isle pays its taxes. We also get a lot less support from the mainland than anywhere else in Arabia. That we pay less taxes to the mainland is not corruption. The unpaid portion is reserved for "local uses" under, ah, erm, my personal supervision."

"Your... personal supervision?"

"Did Abu Charis send you out here to fetch me to rescue the holy land from economic stagnation?"

"Yes, wise one."

"Then why are you holding up the financial redemption ordained from on high with all these foolish infidel-minded interrogations of your elders?" Abu alFerengi did not wait for a response this time. "Go on! Get your haughty self back in that ship and sail me safely to the mainland." He growled and mumbled something about "cutting in on my action" and "violations of the rules of acquisition". Another glare silenced the young man's next question, though, and off they went.

"So..." said Abu alFerengi to the gathering of Imams. "You're telling me there's no mosque yet in Missionary Mosque? And you don't understand why Abu Charis yet remains ambiguous about officially recognizing the true holy state of that hallowed ground where our peaceful missionaries were martyred?" He glared around at the whole lot of them. "Fine, fine, fine. If none of you knows how to set foot outside Mecca any more these days, I will go up there myself and show you how to get a mosque built."

When alFerengi arrived in the jungle, he heard a long list of excuses. "You're fired," he told the project leader. He told that to the next four men in line, and finally somebody figured out that you don't say, "No" to the alFerengi on matters of important business. ... The mosque got built. Very quickly. Like... not there, then... there it was. Abu alFerengi appointed the successful foreman to be governor of Missionary Mosque. "Now here's the deal. And don't even think about double crossing me, do you understand? That would not be, erm, a pious thing to do. Now what you do is withhold a portion of your revenues off the books. You keep those for "local uses", see, and send me my cut -- erm, ah, your donations to your brothers from Profits Isle, who came up here and helped you out when nobody else cared -- and I'll see that it is all covered up -- erm, ah, appropriately recorded in the holy ledgers as approved financial policy. Anybody gets too nosy -- erm, uh, that is, if they try to muscle in on our, ah, arrangement here, you point out their infidel ways and make perfectly clear that everything arranged here was conducted by me, on behalf of higher profits for all, especially, ah, erm... I mean to say, you tell them you are following the Sacred Rules, under my guidance, on behalf of Abu Charis himself, who will be greatly pleased to see some damned income finally being... erm, ah, I mean, Abu Charis directed these proceedings. Understand?"

"Of course we want to buy Persia's maps!" growled alFerengi. They've cornered the market on exploration! Uh... erm, I mean, ah, we can muscle in on their profit... I mean to say, our brothers from Persia, who are somewhat akin to us and have been known to listen attentively to readings of the Rules of Acqui... erm, to the Sacred Texts... Oh confound it." Abu alFerengi took a deap breath and started over. "Persia is rumored to have heard about lands of which we know nothing. The sooner we get this information from them, the sooner the latinum will start rolling in. Huh? What's latinum? Oh. Erm, that's ah, Profits Isle coinage. Excuse me. I, ah, meant to say that we can't send our business tycoons, erm, ah, I mean our missionaries... We can't send them to these new lands if we don't have maps to get there. Now go close the deal!"

"Why Persia? They had stolen our patent for the Lighthouse idea, of course. Built theirs just before we could finish ours. Ah, but that was His Will, direct divine intervention. So that we would instead build the alSistine Mosque, which turns out to be the best scam... er... I misspoke. The, ah, Great Mosque is the inspiration for greed everywhere across Arabia!" "What? No I didn't say greed. I said creed. Creed, you infidel! Our sacred creed! You really ought to have your ears examined. If you had ears anything like mine, your profits would be... erm, I mean you'd be able to hear better when the call of the money... uh... I said funny. FUNNY. When the call of the funny, ah, feeling of His Attention cast upon you... Oh, let me start over here." alFerengi drew a deep breath. "The Mosque is a more holy site than a Lighthouse could ever have been! DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Why be travelling salesmen when you can open the biggest clearance warehouse... erm, that is, you don't send Abu to the mountain when the mountain will come to Abu. Oh never mind, you don't have the ears to understand me anyway. Do I need to speak with Abu Charis about why I spent my time trying to teach high finance... erm, ah, the holy ways of peace... Is that right? Hmm. What was I saying?"

"No, no, you've got this ledger all screwed up. If you could keep track of your inventory... erm, ah... never mind. Just follow these directions I've written out for you here, and our caravan guards... erm, I mean our holy warriors... will make it out to Profits Isle in time to watch over my... oh, just do it, you infidel, and stop questioning your elders so much."

"Yes, I want you to arrance a meeting with Ghandi. He's the easiest mark out of all of those rubes. Ah... I mean, he's our best customer. Er... no. I mean to say that his people are the biggest suckers... DAMMIT. Just arrange the meeting. All right? And you let me worry about the presentation."

"Well, of course I closed the deal. YOU SEE THESE EARS?"

"Yes, yes, I cornered the rest of the market. They were lining up to buy from us. Abu Charis will be so pleased, he'll just "chuckle at alFerengi's odd pronunciations and speaking mannerisms" and let me go home with all this latinum I've... ah, erm, I mean to say, this was such a good deal for Arabia, picking up five techs for the price of one, that I've earned a bigger cut. You hire the specialist, you pay the latinum. Rule of Acquistion Number... huh? What was I saying? No, I wasn't say that at all. Something is wrong with your ears, lad. I made a holy trek to the bargaining table and... ah, our sale pitch was so strong that none of them could keep their wallets closed!" *cough* "I mean, they were attentive to our piety and the Hand of Him has guided us to the big money! Ah... I said FUNNY! The, ah, funny feeling we all get when He walks through and sprinkles peace and love upon all true believers and also those who do business with the holy ones."

"WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MY HARBOR?" alFerengi demanded.

The tall young man said, "O Wise One, we are turning this into a university."

"No, you're not."

The young man stared. "But... it is the will of Abu Charis. It is the edict of the sacred writings."

"No, it's not." alFerengi glared. "You idiot. You're going to hold classes out on this pier? Where will the fishing boats dock? Oh? We don't need any fishing boats? THEN WHERE ARE MY PROFITS GOING TO COME FROM? Uh... I mean, if the customer don't eat, they can't pay me... I, um... No. I didn't say that. What I said, if you had the ears to hear anything, is that you're so wet behind the ears I could open a water bottling plant from what drips out of there and retire to Profits Isle for all eternity! You infidel. You unbeliever."

"But.. Wise One? I don't understand."

"No of course you dont. That's because you haven't actually studied the ancient writings like you claim to have." alFerengi whipped out a scroll from somewhere, so quickly that nobody even saw where he pulled it from. "Aha! Right here, see. What is that word?"

"Wise One, that word is 'start'."

"Excellent. At least you have eyes that work. Now... do you see the word 'finish' there?"

"Um... no, sir."

"Neither did I. So... on WHOSE AUTHORITY ARE YOU MAKING THIS ARREST? Uh... I mean... by what verses from the sacred texts do you presume to cut in on my action here? That verse says, "No non-cultural bldg can be started if there is a cultural choice
available in that city (Culture rule)." Now what does it say, lad?

"Wise One, it says none may be started now. We could be building a university here."

"And where does it say 'no non-cultural building may be finished if it was legally started earlier? Are we supposed to scrap all this progress, this excellent harbor into a waterside circus of a so-called university instead'? I'm not seeing that command in the texts, here. Are you?"

"No, Holy One."

"Then get your fat behind out of my way and leave my harbor alone. Get out. Out out out. Go... away. Leave. We don't serve your kind here. Paying customers only. Out out out with you!"

Abu alFerengi balances his books.

* Dividend yields increased from the tithe, thanks to improved volume. Profits are up!

* Hostile takeover of six technological sectors. We have upgraded our machinery!

* Corporate Mission Statement (ancient writings) strictly followed. All risk of having the books audited has been avoided.

* Missionary Mosque deal is about to be closed. Only the final signing of the contract remains, should take no longer than another forty years.

* Profits are WAY UP on Profits Isle. So much so, that my cut doesn't even eat up half... erm, no I didn't write that. What I meant to write was... oh forget it. The latinum is rolling in! Grease a few palms to hush up the witnesses if you have to.

* Persia settled two missionaries on islands to our south. We now have the maps and navigational tools to get there, and our own missionaries are almost done training.

* How we are supposed to "prepare" for the upcoming hostile takeover and merger of a rival corporation (the "holy crusade") when corporate accounting refuses to budget me any barracks nor allow me to train soldiers outside the two palace towns, I have NO IDEA. (Let someone else get fired over that one! My ass has been covered. Er... Um... I mean to write that I, alFerengi, have done all I can to spread The Word across the world, and now I must rest again for a while and live it up at home on all this latinum I've... ah... gathered.)

* Came in with a pathetic profit rate of 1gpt. Improved on this 1,900% AND made technological acquisitions! :jump: At one point, prior to closing the tech deals, we had 80gpt income!

"So what was the big secret? HUH? Are you crazy? Me cut you in on my business secrets? Well, I'm retiring anyway, so why not. Just, erm, slip me a few latinum scripts... ah, there we go."

"Yes, you see, it's all in the power of the Huge Cash Cow that is the alSistine Mosque. Our sacred texts are so enlightening that now that we have mosques in almost all of the holy cities, our people are so well informed about The Truth of our holy texts that they live this wisdom every day. Thus, they are all happy or content with their lot in this life, knowing He will welcome them home to paradise in the next life. Thus... we don't have to pay our troops to suppress unrest. There is no unrest! Our people are so fuzzy-wuzzy warm in His Truth that they are all working like dogs... uh, I mean... they are all so productive that our whole economy has spiked up in a huge bull rush... erm, ah... um... I mean that the alSistine Mosque is so holy, our people do not have to be bullied and squeezed, they behave like good customers all on their own now, and the cash registers just keep on ringing! Uh... what's a cash register? A Most Holy Vessel, that is what it is. I, uh... I'm talking about our holy Truth here!"

So it was that Abu alFerengi once again answered the call of Abu Charis to lead Arabia to ever greater piety, to renew the expansion of our enlightened civilization. "Ah... Erm, yes, that's right. Wow, I said that right? Uh... yes, of course I did! I speak only of the holy way of life."

RBP3 Arabs - 650AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-arabs-650ad.zip)

- Sirian

Sirian

Jan 05, 2003, 10:20 AM

Apparently the latest wholesale copy of Persia's maps has made its way into your possession. Make sure you charge full retail price upon selling this state of the art information to all the other civs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-650ad.jpg

Griselda

Jan 05, 2003, 02:35 PM

Abu-Gris, the meek and pious, will take her turn to lead the people. (got it)

The position is somewhat intimidating because she is not so wise to the evils of the world as al-Ferengi, and knows not of these "mergers" of which he speaks.

After studying the Holy texts, she sees that we have overlooked something. Our people are now so pious that they no longer need MP to control their thoughts, so Abu-Gris wonders what Mecca is up to. Military crisis or no, Mecca has no business building troops right now! Off with their heads!

-Griselda (maybe have time to finish up this afternoon, or maybe a late night, but I'm starting on it now)

Sirian

Jan 05, 2003, 07:17 PM

Surely every city needs teachers of the law? Even if they aren't needed for actual law enforcement, the people still to be taught by men trained and versed in the full piety of the law. No?

Abu Charis directed defenses to be erected in all our towns, and there were still one or two in need of defenders. He also somewhat vaguely urged us to "prepare" for the coming holy war. I admit there is ambiguity there. Is the law more about MP, which is no longer necessary (but then when was it ever "necessary", prior to a city displaying riotous behavior??) Or is the law about teachers? And just what constitutes "need" for these teachers? Should holiest of holies Mecca NOT be defended by a newly trained unit of pikes or even musketmen? Then to dispatch an older unit out to Profits Isle so as to have teachers in every city? Hmm. The issue has been decided already for this round, but we may need more insight from Abu Charis to sort out future policy. Just what does that law mean while we are under government that makes no use of MP to "police" (suppress dissent among) our own?

All hail the Wise and Meek One, Abu-Gris Bin Ory-gonn. :worshp:

- Sirian

Charis

Jan 05, 2003, 07:31 PM

"Of teaching and wisdom and modeling of truth there can be no over abundance..."

Astutely noted by al-Ferengi, it's about teaching of the laws, making sure the city can grow without commotion or rioting. There is also the fact that the heathen view a town with no MP as a town that the civilization does not care about and wants plundered.

MP units are allowed up to the full limit of the government, whether they are making a citizen happy at the time or not, with at least one teacher of the law allowed even in representative governments. (Switching to such a govt doesn't mean you have to get rid of the existing MP, but if you already had more than one per city, Mecca would have to stop producing them).

A military advisor of the Abu says the following as well...
'What we're following here is a psuedo-farmer's gambit, a builder's gambit as it were, where almost 100% of the society is producing buildings not troops, even past the point of what is normally considered wise. We're pushing the envelope to see how much the AI will put up with despite our weakness. The negotiated peace treaties where they pay us is amazing - the question is whether that will backfire when Knights start to run over warriors and spears when we don't even have Feudalism much less Chivalry. Abu Charis sought to continue this gambit, although his words about preparing for the upcoming holy war reflect my thoughts, that this would be a far 'wiser' course to pursue. Regardless, if we don't have defenders on Prophets' Isle really soon, we're going to get into an ugly, nasty, jihad situation'

Having a teacher of the law in every city is a very good thing.

Abu Charis

Griselda

Jan 05, 2003, 11:59 PM

It's been a long time since I've played a round here, and with the Epic season reopening I didn't want it to seem like I'd abandoned the game. Since the second round began, every single time I've been available, someone else has "got it". I've been very much here and willing to play, but it hasn't worked out.

Today I woke up feeling like I hadn't slept at all, although I'm really not sure why. I've had a couple of weeks off from work, and I've slept plenty. Anyway, I knew I had *some* free time this afternoon, and the game was available for the first time, so I grabbed it.

Now, I'm thinking I was too impulsive. I played about halfway through this afternoon, but I wish I'd waited for others' feedback before I did. I feel like I've been in a sleepy daze all day. I stayed up long enough to get the Epic 21 stuff taken care of, but I'm going to be asleep withing minutes of posting this.

I'm wondering if it's possible to "un-got it", and just let someone else take this round. I don't think I've learned a shred of information from my partial round that won't be revealed by whoever plays the "official" turn.

Then, I can grab it when I'm actually prepared to handle it. Hopefully, such a time will present itself shortly.

Does that sound reasonable?

Oh, I believe that if you're going by the numbers, at the start of this round there are already enough units to cover every city, although that does leave a lot of cities with "warrior only" coverage. Would the MP rule still apply?

-Griselda

Charis

Jan 06, 2003, 01:20 AM

First, don't feel shy about grabbing the game, you or anyone!! The idea behind it is to see the game move along more quickly than a regular game. It was meant as a 'holiday' game to see us through to January. It went so slow that holidays are over and the game is still young.

Un-gots are in general not a good idea, but that's more to not let people unhappy with the way things turn out to bail. That's not the case here, but it's why un-gots are bad if you've played any at all. I would go ahead and finish your turn, but it's up to you. If it's lack of sleep or just a bad time though, please don't feel pressured to finish it.

As far as MP... *every* city should have some kind of defender (aka teacher of the law). That goes for any govt. In Monarchy, you're allowed 3 units per city, so that's how many we can have before Mecca would have to stop. I think we're a mile and half away from that, and hope it can crank some horses (aka proto-Ansars) when it gets a chance.

Nighty night! :)
Charis

Griselda

Jan 06, 2003, 11:58 AM

Yeah, I wasn't trying to erase any bad luck (as a matter of fact there was one good luck thing that might not have happened if someone else took it), but I know I wasn't as aware as I should have been.

We're no Monarchy, now, Charis! Abu Ferengi must have changed it when he saw the possible increase of profits on the new balance sheet.

As it is, let's just say that Mecca has taken a little "time out" to build something to inspire the people. ;) We could still use some clarification on the MP rule in representative governments, though!

I have a job interview this afternoon, so I'll finish it up when I have a chance today.

-Griselda

Charis

Jan 06, 2003, 12:53 PM

Such incredible guidance from he-who-has-large-ears-to-hear! The donations are up, the people are happy, Prophets' Isle is more productive! May the merciful be praised! Clearly anyone capable of doing such good for the empire must be a holy man, carefully doing his best to spread the faith. I am aghast at various ill-worded and totally unproven charges against the holy alFerengi! Any who would bring such unsubstantiated charges against such a pious man will themselves be sent as missionaries to the jungle! I shall ask alFerengi himself to carefully audit the books, to make sure there has been no tampering! :hammer:

> "Wise One, that word is 'start'."
Definite prove that alFerengi has carefully read AND understood the ancient texts. Our laws were written to give us exactly this kind of flexibility.

The Abu is sorry for any confusion in interpretatin of the Teachers of the Law rule, let's try again:

Mecca can train a new teacher of the law (military unit) as long as the total number of such units (raw count, or adjust the number reported by the military advisor al-F3 account for workers) is...
... less than one per city (each city must have a teacher), *OR*
... less than the allowed supported number for that govt *OR*
... less than the MP per city times number of cities (e.g. 3 per city under Monarchy)

To put it in the converse, Mecca may train a teacher when there are not enough teachers for every city (max(1,MP allowed), or when our nation is allowed more supported units for that government type.

Abu-Charis

PS by Charis
- Great write-up Sirian!! was lol on the rules of acquisition and the latinum. I'm wondering how you'll work dabu girls into this, however, or are they entertainers?
- Good luck on the interview Gris!
- If you meant we're out of Monarchy and into republic, and doing ok with just 10% slider, nice job alFerengi! It's nice that we can switch quickly if needed anyway.

Zed-F

Jan 06, 2003, 01:13 PM

I guess the fuzzy area concerns the MP rule, can warriors be built out of Mecca when there are no MP benefits to be had? I'd guess that the way to answer this question would be to examine the reason the rule was added in the first place:

We might consider adding 'Mecca' to the military producer list, depending on the situation, purely for MP reasons.

and, more recently,

MP units are allowed up to the full limit of the government, whether they are making a citizen happy at the time or not, with at least one teacher of the law allowed even in representative governments. (Switching to such a govt doesn't mean you have to get rid of the existing MP, but if you already had more than one per city, Mecca would have to stop producing them).

This latter quote supports the previous stated intention of the MP rule (i.e. explicitly for Mecca to provide MP to keep people content.) Any more than that would violate the principle of the farmer/builder gambit Charis mentioned, though one could argue that it was invalidated in large measure anyway the moment we got an island start. :) Teachers of the law should only be constructed at Mecca if we need more MP to keep the populace mindful of their place as ordained in the scriptures. Thus, if the populace is content enough with their religious improvements and luxury resources that a representative government is supportable, then no new teachers of the law are required from Mecca. Military units can (and should) still be produced at Medina to provide some meager amount of deterrence from the greed of the infidels, and to prepare the way for a great Crusade. Since Chivalry will probably arrive soon enough anyway, it seems likely at this point that no new military will be built from Mecca from now until the advent of this blessed event, unless for some reason we drop back to Monarchy. Once we arrive at Chivalry, of course, any city may build military units.

(And yes, the rule about no military other than at Medina is very much in conflict with the idea of preparing some units so there will be something with which to actually fight this Crusade that we are mandated to undertake, but that's another story entirely...)

As an aside, I think the definition of "teachers of the law" has shifted over time. Originally it referred to a warrior built at Mecca specifically for MP duty, but now Abu Charis seems to be referring to any military unit as a teacher of the law.

EDIT: I guess I should have hit post sooner, Abu Charis beat me to the punch! :)

Charis

Jan 06, 2003, 01:42 PM

Still the people try to wrap their minds around the ancient writings with respect to the ancient texts on teachers of the law / enforcers of the law.

Intent - encourage a big farmers gambit as we sprawl out into more cities with no regard for military other than a small set of cheap units for MP detail to encourage the people to be happy.
Actuality - indeed, very well. In fact we're well past the REX phase and STILL have no less than 33% of our empire totally undefended, not even a cardboard cutout.

Intent - Medina be our troop producer, pre-readying troops for defense and for upgrade to Ansars.
Actuality - Very interesting turn of events, Medina goes for a mega-early hand-built FP. We're beyond lightweight.

Intent - If attacked early all cities can produce troops, and this spike in units would help us militarily.
Actuality - No attacks, in fact they PAY us for peace?!

Intent - A prebuilt horse army from Medina plus the first war declaration itself and cities switching over to Ansars would fuel our crusade
Actuality - We'll hit chivalry and declare war with a total of 2 Ansars, and a quarter of our cities with no defense, and the others using warriors to defend against knights.

As far as a 'teacher' being a warrior from Mecca, vs 'any military unit' I haven't made a big distinction because almost all units have come from Mecca.

I'm still not clear on Gris' comment, but if we're in Republic now we have our quota of mil units, they're just doubled up in some cities, and the whole discussion is MOOT! :lol:
If we're in (or go to) Monarchy we can have 3 per city whether currently 'needed' or not, as we expect the cities to grow.

It's probably clear I'm trying to react dynamically to a situation veyr much unexpected (island start, no lux at home, they fear our cutouts and have not attacked, odd Medina situation), and interpret (or re-interpret) rules to make sense alongside the other Crusade rule.

We'll have nothing but holy books to wave at them in the 'upcoming' war! But I sense here a desire to sleep in the bed we've made for ourselves, and not change the rules to make it easier. If so... we're ready to sleep on that bed of nails!

It seems we should shutdown Mecca from MP production, as we have enough teachers for our current republic. Re-distribute units from towns with 2 to try to get a defender in each. Medina better start cranking troops and QUICKLY. What we DO have leeway in is when we actually pick up Chivalry. If we continue along the path of Education and Music Theory we'll have Universities and Bach's and probably the earliest 100K victory I've ever seen, with totally minimal war. (The Ansar's role is quite diminished here, the cultural aspect is stressed). Plan B would be to get Feudalism and Chivalry asap, start a crusade against the most pitiful excuse for a civ we can find, and start cranking out holy warriors from every city imaginable. This will set us back a few hundred years on universties, but our Ansars will see some good action. If Medina were to have workers added to it or see 15spt, cranking out a horse every 2 turns, we could choose a hybrid path, relying on Mediina to be our troop supplier for the upcoming crusade while most cities work on culture buildings. That's closest to original intent, although it seems we'll have far too few units to be effective.

I'm ok with any of these paths, really, and don't want to dictate what path we choose. If I'm leaning too far one way in rule interpretation, too dynamic vs too rigid, continue to let me know :P The Mecca-MP rule was a last minute addition to the soup which has not been written clear enough from the start. It's a flavor I can take back to the kitchen, or ask patrons to use salt or pepper to season to taste though :P (ie, not a key ingredient)

Clear as mud (and moot if in Republic, or if Mecca is on a wonder)
Charis

PS Lol, Zed posted his 'edit' while I was typing this and I missed that - I thought his comments were after reading my post :lol:

Cartouche Bee

Jan 06, 2003, 01:59 PM

I'm not too sure about the confusion on the MP front but hopefully it has been sorted out. I hooked up the iron on my turn to kind of force any Military production to Horsemen (our natural path before UU) ;) but I suppose pikemen or swordsmen are OK. I also had hoped for a way to build at least one harbor on each land mass to link our empire but our solid commitment to culture will prevail. :)

[Edit:] And I'm still smarting from not switching from Engineering to Printing Press after getting Theology. Guess I won't miss that move again, especially on a map like this, 4 or 5 turns can be the difference between getting a tech first or last. :cry:

Charis

Jan 06, 2003, 02:15 PM

Cartouche,

It is with heavy heart that I see we have fallen prey to the infidels. My scribes inform me that they chiseled us out of 60% of our income. They have led us into the trap of following their desires and our people must be educated to behave with their faith more in mind during their daily life. We will send informal emissaries to enhance our friendly feeling to those that we wish to convert to our way of life. This period of negotiated peace will allow us to conduct affairs with more focus on our primary goals.

Wow, that was so cryptic I had no idea that what you actually did was to renegotiate peace with *nine* foes, while we had one third of our cities without a single defender. To borrow a phrase i don't use often... you got big brass ones!! (Hmmm, wait, are you female?) I'm not sure what is more surprising, that you did that, or that the AI will actually pay our pacificst loving nation for peace? That's just not something I've added to my arsenal - do you have any tips on when/how, and what effect that has on later AI relations?? (It was especially daring in that if they would not give peace for free but demanding something, you would be obliged to pay, as we can't yet declare war on anyone)

I'm also curious on the mechanics of it -- peace with something else on the table seems to result in the AI coming to you and asking to extend the treaty, and you get no option to change the terms. If there's nothing else on the table, it seems to revert to a normal ongoing peace treaty, not just another 20 turns. (That happened with many of the civs in our game here) I suppose that means that when a peace treaty ends you need to catch it and renegotiate on your turn, not let them come to you.

I think the situation has dictated our path on the MP thing, Mecca is out of that business.

:p
Charis

Cartouche Bee

Jan 06, 2003, 02:47 PM

Charis.

The peace negotiation is just part of my regular arsenal and is perhaps exploitive (my emissaries are very skilled in this tactic now). If you go to the graphical power charts and you have a higher power rating (I've actually measured the width of the power bars with a ruler at times) than the AI you will negotiate with, you will be able to get peace and they will pay you for that peace (world maps, gold GPT, techs, Alliances, ...) the amount depends on what they can afford and just how much stronger they perceive you. When the 20 turns of peace ends it does continue as normal peace that could be broken at anytime and that's is when you need to decide if you want another 20 term pact or leave the peace free and easy. :) This type of peace treaty favors those that have a builder/domination style and can keep a foe with a stronger military at bay when things get dicey (aka. GOTM14).

So I can't say it takes balls cause that's just the way it works. ;) We maybe could have got Sistine without it but it sure would have been with a lot more sacrifice than I was willing to administer.

Zed-F

Jan 06, 2003, 03:13 PM

I'd rather lie on a bed of 1000 little closely-spaced nails than on one really big sharp pointy one... :lol:

My suspicion is we will need to do the following when we get to Chivalry:
- Declare war on some unsuspecting civ with a capital or wonder city we have a chance of reaching via boat, or via ROP with a continental power
- Enlist ALL the other civs to help in our war against the infidel, to prevent them from being brought in against us and expanding the conflict (and thereby the scope of the Crusade,) and also to distract the infidel civ from mounting any sort of effective attack against our holy lands (having bigger fish to fry...)
- Build up a strike team of Ansars (say, 3-4 caravels worth, with a couple spare defensive ships) to go after one singular target city (which may change if our allies' attacks are successful) and end the war quickly!
- Get most cities back on culture ASAP after a single round of Ansars and keep on truckin' (err, caravaning) for 100k...

We are not truly ready for war and it would literally take centuries for us to take war to the enemy on any kind of significant scale. A precision strike we might be able to manage, however, so that seems to be the best route to take for the first Crusade. We must be careful, however, to ensure that our strike force is prepared quickly enough that the infidel civ does not perish entirely at our allies' hands before our glorious Ansars enter the fray. To this end, I would recommend we pursue Chivalry sooner rather than later. This will let us initiate the first Crusade when the other civs still lack the knockout power to take down an enemy civ quickly, and will ensure that our Ansars have the best possible chance of being able to do enough damage to capture a city and end the first Crusade. Once we get to the Industrial Era, our Ansars (upgraded to Cavalry) will be able to mount a more effective second Crusade, if desired, against an infidel whose culture level more closely rivals our own. Getting Chivalry sooner will also help us better prepare our military for the possibility of an eventual second Crusade, once all cultural buildings are complete in our major centers.

Incidentally, about swapping to Republic, it's there in Abu al-Ferengi's report, if you look closely enough. It's cryptically worded, as per al-Ferengi's wont, but you'll notice in his last paragraph that he mentioned stopping paying for troops to suppress unrest, that the people were so content with the al-Sistine Mosque that no such troops were needed.

Sirian

Jan 06, 2003, 04:30 PM

Also, the "Persian Map" posted by alFerengi says "Republic" down in the corner. And yes, I know I was the one to suggest that Republic would be a deep hole into which we would sink and not recover from, but I was mistaken. I did run Monarchy through most of my round. Perhaps I should give a clearer turn summary?

* IT MM action saw our income rise from 1gpt to 8gpt before I did anything else. Call it some RBD SG7 turnip squeezing. Mainly how did it was moving tiles to coastal waters where no net food or shields were lost. Other tile swaps inland accounted for one or two.

* I bought a cathedral at Missionary Mosque on my fourth or fifth turn, after a lot of map brokering with Persia's Lighthouse exploration and selling their map info to the world eked out a few pennies, plus the price dropped a little. This bankrupted our reserves, but it increased the cpt from 2 to 5, and we had about 30 culture there at the time, meaning another fifteen turns for the city to hit 100 and become culturally contiguous with the mainland. By the end of my round, there were only four turns left on this process, so it was inevitable by that point. Missionary Mosque IS OFFICIALLY Holy Land, come four turns into Gris's turn.

* We floundered economically for the middle part of my round. I had gotten our income to inch up, and I was pulling in a net of about 10 to 20 g per turn from dilligently buying Persian maps and selling them around. Some turns netted as much as 40g when Persia first sailed south of our continent to find the islands down there. Despite this, our hard-won income surpluses were disappearing as all kinds of new colesseums were being built, at an upkeep cost of 2gpt EACH. When your income is 6gpt and three colesseums wipe it ALL out, and you are sitting there with about 30g in the bank, all from map leeching off the lighthouse civ, well... I took a closer look at the government.

* Mecca and Medina were both on colesseum when I started. Mecca then produced several spears for MP, while we were still under Monarchy, and Medina also trained spears. The spears from Medina were shuffled to our major towns and their warriors were moved to the minor towns, putting units in ALL cities on the mainland. We are NO LONGER undefended. As of the end of my round, I had sent a spear over to Missionary Mosque, put spears in all the towns around Mecca, shifted two warriors over to Profits Isle, leaving only one town in our whole empire undefended, that being whichever town on Profits Isle Gris did not send a warrior (likely the far western one). There was one spare warrior sitting at the south of our homeland, and a settler due next turn out of Najran, both to board ship and sail south with Astronomy now on hand, for us to grab what looks like the last "expansion opportunity" down south.

* Along about turn nine (of fifteen), it dawned on me that with cathedrals built in EVERY town on our homeland, plus rushed one in Missionary Mosque, plus Sistine bonus, plus towns on Profits Isle all working on theirs, that any town with a cathedral could get to size six with no MP help. All our larger towns also had colessems done. I figured out that we could sustain Republic after all and I finally made the switch. To my delight, the added gold saw two or even three lux from the tithe in our core, also the bad news is that importing lux from the AI's will be very pricey compared to our current budget. Then in just five turns left, I started harbors or aqueducts in all towns (except Medina) with all the current cultural buildings, THEN I bought Education. Mecca completed its harbor shortly before the end of my round, so the pike it was training when Gris took over is the only post-Republic mil unit being trained there, and apparently after all Gris was right in the first place to veto it, as Charis has finally clarified that under Republic that unit should not have been being trained, because I had already been max attentive to military my round and we had more units than we had cities, if barely.

* On the next-to-last turn, I bought Astronomy @8th from India (all techs from India, as AI pricing depends on aggression settings and on commercial trait, thus Ghandi and Joanie are always-always the best deal around, if you are Polite or better -- China, being low aggression, and now Spain, are also good trading partners, while Otto, Shaka and Monty are lousy miserly SOBs) and brokered that to the civs who did not have it yet, picking up four techs and a lux and a net of some spare change of cash too. Chivalry was available but I took gunpowder as the last tech instead. It was... a better deal, coin for coin, and being alFerengi, ah, erm... I was inspired to choose to postpone the great crusade so I could line my own pockets with latinum. What? No, I didn't say that, of course. Something must be wrong with your ears.

- Sirian

Sirian

Jan 06, 2003, 04:42 PM

If the ancient writings require only that we take ONE CITY to fulfill our crusade obligations, then we could quickly invade and take over Persia's new island colonies to our south and make peace with them before their ships even reach our shores. This in a fit of rage over how they reached these lands by poaching our Lighthouse idea, these being lands so near the holy soil and so far from Persia. That is if Abu Charis wants to do it that way, and Gris doesn't commit us to another path on her round.

If we are required to take a capital city and/or a great wonder in this crusade, then the only logical target would be Tenochtitlan.

If we are required to do something between these two extremes, fighting over jungle colonies seems the best bet.

Whatever we do, we MUST protect and defend Missionary Mosque or we'll be in jihad frenzy with somebody until we have wiped them from the face of the earth. Thus, yes, I was training a few pikes. A couple dozen catapults and muskets would be nice, but we should start with at least a couple. We might also want to rushbuy its library, col, and uni, so we can then rushbuy walls, barracks, and harbor, and hook up our own dyes. Our first call to arms once we declare war needs to be training volunteers to travel to the mainland to defend Missionary Mosque. And of course Zed is right, the biggest danger with the crusade is that the AI we target will buy an ally, and that ally will buy two allies, and they will buy two allies, and so on, and so on, and so on. :eek: So we might also give consideration to targeting not the closest civ, but the poorest and most beleaguered and hated.

Um... anyway, those are somebody else's problems. I fixed the economy. I came, I saw, I profited. Now time to sit back and let the royalties roll in while some other, erm, holy leader deals with today's problems.

- Sirian

Charis

Jan 06, 2003, 05:52 PM

The Abu Charis is not the quickest of wits, as he's off in the mountains too much meditating :P I missed the purchase of Education and Astro, so that 'English' report clarified much! (It was also quite instructive) I was chuckling too much at the first report to catch that making universities meant we had Education (duh). Also quite glad to see we're not all undefended either. Truly a great turn :hammer:

Cartouche, tnx for clarifying. That's interesting to find out - about the power relationship determining the price of peace. I'll have to try that out more extensively soon, or come up with a game that makes good use of it.

As far as a city capture, yes, it's definitely a capital OR a wonder. It's a crusade afterall, not just a pseudo-war outing. The people long to share their faith in a significant way. Teno, or Lighthouse would be good targets. Check F7 for the location of other wonders.

Charis

Griselda

Jan 06, 2003, 08:19 PM

Abu Ferengi truly oversaw the empire to such a degree that the sleepy Abu Gris could play the round almost in her sleep! She does send word that she does not expect her future leadership to be under similar circumstances. (btw, got the job, and found out it started today :eek: )

(0) 650 AD The people of Mecca believe that knowledge is the true key to power. They abandon their militaristic ways, for the time being, in order to construct a university. The suit of armor that they had been working on will be used to adorn the Dean's office.

BT - Montezuma would like us to extend our peace contract for free. Abu Gris agrees, although she has been told of some of the Aztecs' horrendous jungle rituals, and feels that they may need to be shown the wrongness of their ways when the new contract expires. :hammer:

Najran settler -> colosseum
Kufah colosseum -> university
Mansura colosseum -> university
The Chinese start Copernicus.

(1) 660 AD - Abu Gris failed to realize that our wiseman have learned to travel safely by sea, and mistakenly guided the settler northwards, laving the warrior and the galley fortified in the South for the time being. The settler would later be redirected to the South, almost 10 seasons late. The second settler journeyed to Missionary Mosque, where Abu Gris feels some gaps may appear that facilitate settlement.
BT - The northern continent has connected their dyes.
Medina pike -> horseman
I was thinking, when we do get Chivalry, we don't have to declare war until we produce an Ansar. So, any horses we make now can be upgraded on the same turn, rather than letting the war drag on while we produce a few a a time, or produce non-vets in other cities. So, although we are still lightly defended, I think the time has come to make some horsemen.
Yamama settler -> colosseum (se settler note, above)

(2) 670 AD misc.
(3) 680 AD - Two Musketmen are upgraded, and a few troops shuffled. One Musket is now in Mecca, the other in Fustat. Khurasan got a spearman, and its warrior was sent inland.
BT - Aden colosseum -> university
Missionary Mosque locks borders with the mainland, and there was much rejoicing [party]

(4) 690 AD - Cancel ROP with Persia, Celts, and Aztecs, as they have nothing to offer in return. Renegotiate ROP with China for their 26 gold.
BT - Medina horse -> horse
Spanish have Music Theory, and start Bach's.

(5) 700 AD - If we do want to go for Bach's, Damascus is the best spt town that has the most sheilds in its box at the moment. It may still not be enough. I'm waiting to see what we can get for printing press.
BT - Fustat library -> university
Fez colosseum -> university
Vikings, Celts, Babs, and Egyptians start Bach's (d'oh!).
Spanish start Smith's, and take a dyes tile away from our Northern settlement.

I told you the Aztecs just don't know how to live! Atzcapotzalco flips to us! Their people yearn to be with us, and who wouldn't?
(6) 710 AD - Atz is size two, and will starve or riot. I'm going to let it riot this turn, and then the people can choose to starve themselves when they want me to stop the riot. I move a worker towards the city to get it connected, and a mainland worker towards a galley to help out.

Yes, the huge amount of wonder starts should have led me to believe that a trading fiasco has just taken place. Sleepy Gris will notice in a little while.

BT - Set taxman in Atz when it riots. Egypt completes Leo's. Indians and Japan cascade to Copernicus. Aztecs, Vikings, Persians, and Celts cascade to Bach's. Spanish complete Smith's, and start Bach's and Magellan's. Isabella may be our biggest cultural rival, maybe we should show her the light as well? :hammer:
(7) 720 AD - All the AI's must have had different research paths. Needless to say, we've lost printing press, and everyone else now has it as well as a bunch of stuff. Of course, Bach's now looks to be right out of the question.

We don't have enough cash and gpt available to buy any tech. The only possible deal right now would be to trade our only saltpeter to the Celts for Chemistry, which we could sell to Japan and Scandanavia, who at least have banking. Other than that, though, I'm not sure what we'd buy from them, and we may need that saltpeter before 20 turns are up!

Sleepy Gris signs off, and awake Gris checks in. I'm thinking now that we may want to save our cash to upgrade the horses and to buy alliances, even if that leaves us behind in tech for a while. Short term "pointy stick" research may be helpful. :hammer:

I swap Fez, Shiraz, and Mansura to a harbor. I also unload the warrior on Prophet's Isle. When he arrives in the far west town, all our cities will have a unit.

BT- Medina horse -> horse
Khurasan harbor -> uno
Aztcapotzalco starves to one.
Iroquois, Indua, and Egypt start Bach's.

(8) 730 AD - Settler arrives in the north, and fortifies at Missionary Mosque. There is a patch of jungle to the west that just may fit a city.

I try the Persian map trick, and barely break even. Nobody cares about up to date Persian map information anymore.

BT - Bukhara colosseus -> university

(9) 740 AD - War arrives in Suhar, the last undefended town.

BT - Muscat colosseum -> uni
Merw -> library -> uni
Celts complete Bach's.

(10) 750 AD - Our galley finally heads south.

-Griselda
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-750ad.zip

Cartouche Bee

Jan 09, 2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Griselda

(9) 740 AD - War arrives in Suhar, the last undefended town.

I'm hoping that is really

(9) 740 AD - Warrior arrives in Suhar, the last undefended town.

Anyway, 3 days and no bites, so I got it, suffer! :)

Cartouche Bee

Jan 10, 2003, 09:09 AM

The ancient writings are consulted for guidance in the ways to proceed in these troubled times.

* Outside the Holy Land...
- Fully corrupt cities should irrigate fully and use taxmen to support themselves

Taif revert to settler and Hama revert to worker since they are both size 1 and cannot yet support cathedrals. The worker outside Taif is called down from the hills to work on the jungle clearing project so that the lands may be irrigated.

The galley far south is recalled so that the settler can pursue a choice of land that at least has a chance to be irrigated.

Although the Aztecs may seem like a likely target for the crusades, it has come to a point where unless they start the war with us we need to look at Egypt(military) or India(culture) as being the likely targets for a crusade, according to the guidance of the ancient writings. This in mind, chivalry, may be left unresearched until war actually starts.

3 harbor productions are reverted to cultural buildings. <sigh>

Merw starts a worker for relocation to Medina.

Maps are traded across the boards.

Sign 20 turn peace with Celts.

Warrior at Medina upgraded to MI. Warrior at Mecca to travel to Medina for training. Military upgrades will be performed at Medina.

Minor changes in city workers to make better use of existing resources.

The plan for these 10 turns will to hold the fort and fortify the position around Missionary Mosque.

Standard cultural builds will be maintained. Medina will focus more on protective measures and counterstrike capabilities.

Workers, will be added to Holy cities to increase income. Cities will be culled for workers when possible for relocation and to aid in the settling of new lands.

760AD By the ancient writings.
790AD Get Printing Press. Minimalist Research of Banking. We are making 61 GPT now. Any techs that we wish to buy just drain us (Banking 35 GPT or Physics 50GPT) and provide little for the cause. I save cash flow to allow us more flexibility for the future. I establish an embassy with Babylon to provide a future ally against the Aztecs.

810AD Egypt declares war on the Japanese.

820AD
China gives me Banking for peace, 185 gold and 23 GPT. Leaves us making 79 gold per turn. Switch research to Democracy

830AD
Spanish offer us Music Theory for 11 gold! Take my piano theory test, yes useless but you never know. Iroquois declare war on Egypt.
Babs give us Chemistry for peace and 36GPT. Still making 54 GPT.

840AD Mecca and Damascus are building banks.

850AD Found the settler fortified in Missionary Mosque on my last turn. So now there are two settlers with Musketmen heading for the Aztec front. Persia gives us Metallurgy for peace,ROP, 39 GPT. Leaves us making 45 GPT.

Were up to 5 musketmen and 5 MI. India and Celts (others?) are into the Industrial Age.

Culture 14,656, going up 281 per turn at this point. So less than 300 turns to 100K at this rate. Any culture buildings that we build from here on in will probably not get a chance to double culture output before the end of the game.

Recap: 5 techs completed, gross income increased 15% overall (about 65 GPT). Midevil military units increased 300%. 1 new embassy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_850_AD.SAV

Charis

Jan 10, 2003, 07:11 PM

The nerdy horned-rim glasses assistant of Abu Charis, aka
al-Excellus, put collated the statistics for our glorious cities and came up with the following projection:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Culture100KProjection850AD.jpg

To be more specific... when do we reach 100K culture?

With the 27 cities we currently have, if we do *NOTHING* else
... 1904 AD

With these 27, finishing up the five cultural basic buildings by 1500AD
... 1844 AD

Kicking these buildings out faster, by 1200AD:
... 1816 AD

And by some economic miracle by 1000 AD (just 15 turns away):
... 1806 AD

If we take 1500AD as date for five bldgs in current cities, what
if we add six more cities completing theirs in 1500 also?
... 1820AD

If a monstrous crusade took on top of those six, 20 more cities,
all bldg all basic cultural bldgs by 1500 AD (quite a stretch!)
... 1772 AD

Of course, reaching 100K alone isn't sufficient, we'll need to beat the next closest civ by a factor of two. (This makes Egypt and India rivals of sorts) Cartouche Bee correctly notes that new buildings will NOT see the 1000 year doubling, but there are so many buildings yet to be made that getting them done in the next few centuries will still have a big impact! (One odd thing in doing these calculations, btw, the 'Total culture' of the civ given at the top of F5 does NOT equal the sum of the culture of each of the cities! Also the cities values do not equal the pure equation values, because during years of anarachy or revolt, no culture accrues for the city that turn. What MIGHT happen is that the civ gets those points while the cities do not? Off by 365 on the civ total count, off by around 379 in the revolt-anarchy turns)

On the projection shown in the image, wrapping up basic buildings by 1500AD, what percent of 100K comes from each building type?

Temples...... 26% (due mostly to their age)
Libraries...... 23%
Cathedrals.. 24%
University.... 12% (low because of how late they're built)
Colosseum.. 11% (more than expected)
Wonders..... 4% (Palace, FP, Sistine) (less than expected)

A most excellent job by the greats Imams Griseldda and Cartouche! Much knowledge, continued cultural emphasis, and a military far, FAR better than seen by Abu-C! Now we must just get those corrupt convert cities to be self-sustaining with their collections!

Such interesting times we live in! Will the rest of the millenium be a time of great peace and prosperity or will it see the rise of Ansars?!

al-Excellus, for Abu Charis

PS Got it, although it might be a short turn.

Charis

Jan 10, 2003, 11:02 PM

The humble Abu Charis is dancing with glee at the merging of the cultural boundaries between the Holy Land of Missionary Mosque and the mainland of Arabia!! [dance]

He goes off to the mountains to celebrate, and an aide, Charislatinum, is left in charge for the week.

He notes, our military is weak compared to all but Aztecs and Babylon (avg).

No 'outstanding' choices for vulnerable wonders to capture, and for
capitals, Madrid and Tenochitlan are closest and not far from coast.
Our culture opponents are Egypt and India, both very far away. No one
has given a smoking gun reason to declare a crusade against them, from
a religious standpoint. China, Babylon and Persia are protected for next
almost 20 yrs, and Celts for 10. Our 'power' is greater than all but Egypt
and Persia.

Techwise... we're backward?!?! How can this be in a land so full of
libraries and universities?! We're ninth in literacy?!

Biggest tech list is Chivalry, Democracy, Economics, Nav, Physics, Mil Tradition.
Egypt, Iro, Spain, Celts have all these. Persia lacks only Democracy.
Japan is somewhat backward with Chiv, Econ, Nav, MilTrad.
Smallest is Babylon who lack Metallurgy but have Chivalry and Econ. Aztecs have
these two and Metallurgy. Vikings have Chiv, Econ and Nav.

We can't afford Democracy, although shifting commerce and playing with the
peace treaty might get it from Iro. It could be traded for all other techs,
Physics, Chivalry, Econ, Navigation. But it would leave a huge financial deficit.

Speaking of finances, some from the al-Ferengi camp point out that the people
are very unhappy about seeing only 4 marketplaces (and no banks) now that
we've learned banking. For a Republic no less! Surely this should get some attention!?

The peaceful builder, Imam Charilatinum, fills the gap of power!
He has watched all the other great leaders, and takes cues from each,
starting off his reign with peace 'discussions'. His reign will be a short
one however, for he prefers not being so visible in operations!

[0] No changes to make (!!?), he likes the build orders quite a bit. Lots of universities,
marketplaces where cultural buildings done, and banks when markets are built.
(Taif's settler I don't much like, might consider a shift to library)

No peace treaty is set with Aztecs in case the next leader has other plans.
We build embassy with Iro, then sell RoP for 2gpt. We renegotiate with Spain,
first our RoP then the peace treaty, for a cash 'donation' of about 50g.

(IBT) Japan wants to renegotiate our Ivory purchase. It costs 13gpt more now.
India and Spain start Shakespeare's.

[1] 860 AD - Worker added into Baghdad, increases our income by 4gpt.

(IBT) Spain and Egypt ally vs Japan. And now here's something interesting...

Egypt demands tribute!?? :eek:
World Map and 26 gold!

That's over a tithe! Can holy Arabia give more to Cleo the arrogant than to the merciful one????

NO!!! Dare you think Arabia will cave in to this gross extortion?! Let there
be nothing left of your vile little country should you dare tresspass on the
Holy Land!!! :hammer:

What does she do??? The smart move, she backs down! Charislatinum had learned from
the Abu that you just have to 'do the right thing', and if fate chooses a hard
and tough course for you, so be it - it is the will of the merciful one! This would
have ended much debate over who the crusade would be against! Alas, we're still at peace.
(There was a vision of a very quiet short turn becoming bedlam!)

[2] 870 AD - Basra starts a marketplace, while ya mama starts a university.
Hama starts a cathedral, as will other small towns. They'll have the option, post-
completion to run wealth and a taxman, to pay for it until they grow bigger.
If this continual population drain continues, they will never build anything
that requires maintenance! Taif swaps off settler for same reason. Besides, there
is a missionary settler sitting in Missionary Mosque waiting for his marching orders.

(IBT) Celts start Shakespeare, as do China next turn.

[3] 880 AD - Tabuk is founded in a forsaken little spot in the hills,
stuck at low size for a long time to come, nevertheless it brings a message
of encouragement and hope to its Aztec neighbors.
We note Persia has not only picked up Physics, it's in the Industrial era?

(IBT) The Iro want an alliance vs the Egyptians? Tempting! But not yet Hiawatha...
(Er, they would give Chivalry for free - keep that in mind :P )

[4] 890 AD - zzzzz. (IBT) zzzzz...

[5] 900 AD - Baghdad did some mm to complete its Marketplace early.

There is a settler who was going to head to the spot two squares NW of where he
is now (near Tabuk). That's NE of a mountain, in a jungle on the river.
With a temple it will apply a lot of pressure to The surrounding Viking
and Spanish towns. Or... use him for something else :P
A worker near Taif is heading to the mountains to mine it, since Missionary Mosque
is actually using that tile for shields, unimproved.

Save file 900AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-900AD.zip)

(Having looked at the save file so much I thought I should play it, but then didn't want to get too far or keep someone from making a bolder move toward a campaign. Just wanted a few quiet turns slipped in, then almost got more than bargained for with Cleo. I still think building until a war decides who our foe will be is best, since we need a ton of marketplaces and banks, and a harbor up on Missionary Isle, before we get locked into combat. Really... after culture buildings and bank are done, we can war the whole rest of the game if we so choose, but until then the economy continues to suffer)

Good luck,
Charislatinum

Sirian

Jan 11, 2003, 01:33 AM

Word has reached Abu alFerengi that aides to Abu Charis have been describing the economy as "suffering".

"That sounds like the perfect opportunity to line our pockets... ah, erm, to find our dockets is what I said there. Now don't go deaf on me! What's a docket? Ah... well, those are summaries, you see. Summaries about our, ah, oh never mind. Just get me to the mainland safely, you blubblering infidel-sympathizer."

(got it)

Sirian

Jan 11, 2003, 03:43 AM

* We now have a musket in every city over size 6.

* Purchased Physics @11th, traded it and a few gpt to Aztecs for Navigation and Economics @last. This should open the way for a two-for-one deal with somebody (Scandinavia or Aztecs) on the last two mandatory techs in the middle ages, in at most five turns when some of our deals start to expire. Running out of chances, though, just two civs left with us in obsolete land.

* We now have an 8-pack of horsemen at Medina.

* I spent a total of about 100g to various civs to bring our world map up to date, recouped at least twice that, probably more, in brokering map versions between the civs. (Actually have one civ paying us in gpt, as they were almost as far behind in maps as we were).

* Bought an Embassy with India, paid them very minor change for Right of Passage and MUTUAL PROTECTION. (Yeah, Cleo. Come get some).

* Wandered the jungles, blockaded by AI units, finally found a place to settle on the last two unclaimed tiles. It ain't much, folks, but it's there.

* Bought the last embassy, with Scandinavia, and recouped almost all the cost in the first RoP.

* Built one caravel and sent it and a galley on fogbusting mission, to earn a few dozen g on map sales. Still can't train any military, but ships are allowed, so I started beefing up our fleet a tad. I also built a barracks or two in there somewhere.

* Um... marked time. (This is the questest ten turns I've had in an SG in a long time. My hands were pretty much tied by ongoing deals and by large buildings being built in small towns).

RBP3 - 1000AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-arabs-1000ad.zip)

- Sirian

Skyfish

Jan 11, 2003, 05:33 AM

Ben Skyfish The Ignorant finally recovers from the (unjustified, he might add):whipped: he got from Abu Charis next time around and, as the prophets were wrong in prediciting the end of the world in 1000AD, he will see if he can help getting to the apocalypse just a bit sooner :(

Got it !

Skyfish

Jan 12, 2003, 06:53 AM

Ben Skyfish had a lot of problem choosing a strategy for his short reign. Most income was tied up in Tech deals and the techs offered were not so important, most of all every civ (except Aztecs who were broke) had those techs which prevented any brokering. By the time we could do a 2-1 deal with Aztec or Scandinavia they already had those techs...

Tech situation :
- Chivalry : needs to be kept for Crusade.
- Mil Trad : useless (negates the effect of our Ansars ? not if we disconnect Salpeter...)
- Democracy : unaffordable and useless
- Magnetism and TOG : nice but would cost all our treasury + all gpt. Is it really worth it ?

My decision is then to build up our income in order to able a massive (hum,hum...) Horsemen to Ansar upgrade in just one turn.
Quite some buildings were finished and switched to MPs and Banks, following Abu Charis' suggestion to grow our income.

1000ad : nothing to change
1010ad : Egypt building Mag voyage, changing a few cities to Banks.
1020ad : Wild round of Map trading.
1030ad : Round of Map trading.
1040ad : India and Persia sign an MPP. Aztecs ask for exchange of TM and we refuse, they start amassing Knights at our border...
Deals are off and more gpt comes in.
1050ad : Round of Map trading.
1060ad : Shakespeare build by Indian, Celts build Newton
1070ad: Round of Map trading.
1080ad : Aztecs declare war on Egypt ??
1090ad : wild round of Map trading.
1100ad : Spain finishes Magellan.

We have 13 Horsemen, 1223G and getting 141gpt.

Tabuk is losing Cultural battle but Cath could be bought for 264g.

Tenochtilan has a Great Wonder and is a capital plus our Latinum Trading Outpost makes it very rapidly reachable by our Ansars.
The Aztecs should definitely be the victims of our cursade, let's show those jungle babykillers who's the better Believer !

My idea would be to buy a Barrack in Missionary Mosque, transport all our 13 horsemen there and in a single round buy Chivalry (available for cheap), declare war vs Aztecs and upgrade the 13 riders of Death to Ansars.
Switch all orders to Muskets in the new found land and blitz Tenochtilan after the first wave of Aztecs attacks(already embedded in a war vs Egytp). Capture and then sue for peace, get as much Techs as possible to get us in the Industrial Age asap where almost everyone else already is...
Of course that is the outline but the main issue remains that there is no real devensive preparation possible since we can not build defensive troops : there will be a few turns with very lightly defended cities and we could lose some (some could get automatically razed ???)

I believe the :worshp: Great Abu Charis :worshp: should come down from his Mountain right now and lead our Magnificient Jihad !
Becaues very soon riflemen will make hamburgers of our pious Ansars...

Even though it was totally uneventful, it was extremely hard to play these turns as the number of options was so limited and still some drastic choice was necessary. Could have gone on the way of buying into Techs but it felt like a vicious circle of being always bankrupt and thus not able to wage war, we can not delay any further as our Ansars will be totally outdated soon plus we have the luck of having the weakest Civ right on our doorstep...

Hope I did not weed too much and feel free to :whipped: me all you can, it is an honour for a good muslim to get punished for wrong doing. :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-_Arabs_-1100ad.SAV

Charis

Jan 12, 2003, 02:55 PM

The people cheer for the excellent job of Ben Skyfish in leading the people!! He and alFerengi have done a great job at improving the economy of the great nation of Arabia!! :goodjob:

- Updated projections: We would reach 100K in...
1864 AD if we never built another culture building,
1822 AD if we finished all needed buildings by 1500AD
1802 AD if we do this in exising cities PLUS six more
So an medium aggressive path would have us 100K in 1810AD, which is 155 turns from now
I looked at other games for comparison, and this will likely see us around 1810 near the end of the Industrial era (slower if game is warlike, faster if very peaceful).

And yet... in 1100AD, we have a problem.... a huge problem...

Not only may one to four other civs be near 50% of our culture in the 1800's, in fact... India has ALREADY crossed that mark! :eek:

We can *NOT* coast to a peaceful cultural win!! :hammer:

- Look at numbers of turns stuck in treaties
Aztecs-7, Japan-15, India-7, Persia-15, Babs-13, Celts-6, China-12, Vikings-10. Only Egypt, Iroquois and Spain are unencumbered.

Strengths
- Our economy is looking great, thanks to recent leaders focusing on this
- Our military is not hopeless, and outnumbers the Aztecs (who, however, have cavalry)
- We're just 5 bldgs away from hitting the 75% mark for civ-wide cultural building completion

Weaknesses
- Prophets Isle would be in *grave* danger if war broke out. 5 warriors defending
five cities! And almost no spare defenders to shift over. If the timing of war
is decided by someone else, they will see Cavalry trios land on our shore there!
- Cranking workers up north has to stop or they'll never be able to build, OR support
any cultural buildings up there!

Threats
- Pagans at Tabuk have been quite defiant towards our culture and are exerting
enormous pressure against our missionaries there!
- The Hindus of India mock our culture! They've gone (see Culture graph) from a puny
insignificant people around 0BC to our MAIN THREAT in 1100AD, as they have just
gained MORE THAN 50% of our culture!!?! If we do not arrest their growth rate,
specifically by capturing at least a half-dozen cities, we will need to wipe out
their civ later.
- The Egyptians are coming close to seeing 50% of our culture too. They cannot be
allowed to continue cultural pursuits.
- Although never specified, leaving the Middle Ages *without* having taken
Chivalry doesn't feel quite right here...

Opportunities
- We're in an interesting MPP chain, us with India (gasp), who is MPP with Persia, who
is MPP with Japan.
- Tenochitlan is both a wonder city and capital, and a clear top choice for crusade
- Winning with an Ansar will set off our Golden Age!
- Upgrade cost: Horse to Ansar: 60, Ansar to Cav: 40.
- Fez could swap to Barracks this turn (for upgrading) with no loss of shields (As for the otherwise good thought that Missionary Mosque should buy a barracks, it would need to finish University and Colloseum first, and Harbor is a huge need too - perhaps these buildings should be rushed in this vital Holy Land city!!?)
The two galleys nearby should upgrade to Caravels, and probably one more built.

Proposals being tossed about by men after their prayer meetings...
- Prepare for an almost immediate attack on the Aztecs, limited war of three cities
including Teno, return to infrastructure building after that, and expect some
large scale tank campaigns against cultural leaders down the line.
- Be passive and peaceful people, let fate decide who shall feel the wrath of
our first crusade, and ignore Chivalry until then. Trust the merciful one to
somehow stop the cultural expansion of our foes.
- Recognize that no large-scale campaign can happen without a large increase in giving
by the people! Use the blessed peace to finish cultural buildings and get on to
banks and harbors for trading, and may our latinum grow as well as our great culture!
- Take immediate drastic measures by a crusade against Aztecs *AND* a war vs Egypt,
dragging in India, Persia and Japan via the MPP chain, and allying with Babylons,
and Iro (who will give us Chivalry for free if we ally). We would focus on Aztecs
and let our allies do most of work vs Egypt. After Egypt crumbles, maneuver to make
India the next target of a dogpile.
(The means and goal would be Chivalry and Mil Tradition now,
and aim for ToG and Magnetism for peace)
- Democracy is due in 12, on the turn it completes, revolt, and shift into *Despotism*
for a turn, whip projects like madmen, and immediately revolt again, to Democracy.
This could get harbors on both lands off the mainland and finish several buildings quickly
- What they DON'T want is people being paralyzed into inaction, hands tied by long
ongoing deals, and looong projects queued up in small cities.

Such a fateful decision is really too big for any one leader, and this
requires discussion amonst the Imam, Abu and other leaders!

What say ye, people of Arabia?!
Charistrategist, junior advisor of the Abu

JMB

Jan 12, 2003, 03:06 PM

I've got it, but will wait for a bit longer (ie, more input regarding our future course of action) before playing...

EDIT: Is there anything against razing cities? ie, if we take Teo, do we have to keep it? (if we do, it'll probably be much harder to press the attack on to Teno)

Charis - Immediate attack... I figure that it'll probably take most (if not all) of the next 10 turns to ship our troops over and get them into position. Is this what you consider "immediate"?

After looking at the map and units, I think our Crusade should be against both Egypt and the Aztecs.

Charis

Jan 12, 2003, 04:41 PM

As the Merciful One is merciful, so shall we be...

> - No razing or intentional starving (Mercy rule)

'Immediate' is a relative term. It means letting workers take
cover, getting a few defenders in position, getting Chivalry,
upgrading all horse to Ansar, declaring, getting them on a boat, shifting them over, before we can even get them to a city.

I'm leaning toward Egypt and Aztecs, but there are certainly dangers to that :P I hope others get the chance to chime in.

Charis

Sirian

Jan 12, 2003, 05:08 PM

Message from Abu alFerengi:

"Sorry, the Abu is unavailable for comment at this time. He is locked away in holy prayer vigils with a number of sisters from the Order of the Dabu Girls. We regret any inconvience this may have caused you."

JMB

Jan 12, 2003, 07:41 PM

I was thinking about ferrying our troops over first, rushing the uni and coll in Missionary Mosque so we can build a barracks there (and a harbor), and then upgrading our troops (the 12 or so we currently have; it'll probably take 4-5 turns to get most of our troops over there) once they are on the other continent.

About the razing... I really need to study the ancient texts more often. Such an unfaithful disciple, I am. May Allah forgive my slothful ways... :)

hotrod0823

Jan 12, 2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Skyfish

Tabuk is losing Cultural battle but Cath could be bought for 264g.

IIRC: Paying for prayer is not an option. Killing a few slaves to honor the Mighty Despot ...errr I mean the God. Is!! to rush the cathedral of :worshp: would require a government swap then :whipped:.

Edit: Okay maybe it is an option to cash rush, checked the variant rules and the govn't swap was just given as an option to rush improvements not a requirement. NOT using cash would still be within the grand theme of the game IMHO

This game is about to get really interesting!!! :satan: :hammer: Good luck to all who take on the holy crusades.

Hotrod

Edit2: Or as CB pointed out maybe I didn't dream it up :lol:

Originally posted by Abu Charis

Our own people too, should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the advancement

Cartouche Bee

Jan 12, 2003, 08:38 PM

Well we can't cash rush cultural buildings, otherwise we could have done that long ago.

Anyway, the horsy wars may turn out to be a myth cause many civs are already in the industrial age and putting up small amounts of horses of any kind against fortified riflemen in cities is a poor form of assault. We probably should have stopped producing horses awhile back but we can use them to trigger a GA. If we have completed 'most' of the cultural buildings in the Holy Land we could produce a fair army in short order if a war starts.

Taking out the Aztecs may be away to get by the required war when discovering chivalry but that will not help to win the cultural war. Even gaining that land and building a few more temples will not speed the win in a meaningful way.

From the ancient writings.
- If a civ has previously declared war on our civ, or is currently at war, they will be the target of this Crusade. If we've stayed out of war, the Holy Land cities may start to build/amass an Ansar horde and declare on the biggest 'threat' (military or cultural threat)

We should complete banks and then start to produce vet. military and artillery. We should focus on ways to take out the Indians and Egyptian. Don't bother getting Military Tradition (until after our Golden Age) cause we lose our chance at the military Golden Age. When we decide to go to war in a more modern way we can buy chivalry and use the Ansars to pick off weak targets.

We have a good pace on culture let's not try and rush the win too much, it takes time. ;)

Sirian

Jan 12, 2003, 10:43 PM

You may have missed it in the various patch transformations (easy to do) but the game now continues to give you the option to build your UU, if you have not had your military golden age yet. I believe you're right about the upgrade, though: our current horses would upgrade to cavs, not to Ansars. We could still train new Ansars, though, for sure, so that would not be the end of a military golden age possibility. At worst, an inconvenience.

As for how to resolve the, erm, "competing interests" inherent in the ancient texts... I'm sticking to the Dabu Girls.

- Sirian

Cartouche Bee

Jan 12, 2003, 11:55 PM

That detail may make a big difference when we finally get into a war, which eases my mind about the circumstances to trigger a GA. Thanks!

Griselda

Jan 13, 2003, 12:55 AM

OK, that's not usually my style at all, so let me explain myself.

Looking at the proposals cited by Charistrategist, I like the first (immediate Aztec attack) and the "drastic" proposal myself.

The MPP chain and option to ally is sooo tempting, although it does seem like we'd be getting in far over our heads if the AI's don't do their fair share. The main drawback, though, is the possibility that India might swallow Egypt and become unstoppable. We'd also be risking the possibility of longterm jihad if we let Egypt come and trigger the MPP's.

I personally have major issues with Spain, simply because they *still* have the gall to claim that dyes tile at Vitoria. I assert that their claim to that tile is an affront to the superiority of all things Arabian. However, a crusade against Spain would have to include an assault on at lease one of their core cities, and that's not even close to realistic. But, they're on my "list."

A crusade now-ish would end the farmer's gambit rule, and allow us to better prepare for future crusades. I'd be happy to see a short Crusade against the Aztecs, or the "extreme" Crusade if that's the will of the people. Just as long as Isabella gets hers sometime before the end of time. :hammer:

-Griselda

Skyfish

Jan 13, 2003, 05:48 AM

I agree with FatimaGris to an extent I vote for a combination of 1 and 5 from Abu's proposals.
We need a very quick strike vs Aztec, some kind of defensive military build up during that Crusade in order not too be a tempting target in Indus Age, and after that a bit of Despotism to remind our people of the Wrath of Allah.
However Ben Skyfish is personally in love with Isabella (like AlFerengi I think...), also she is overly dominant on the waves, her Navy would absolutely anihilate us in no time. That is not the case with the Greenies.
I have a bad feeling about the MPP trigger and war vs Egypt...
That MPP with India is problematic though as it would be nice to ally Egypt and let them annoy India for us...
We will need a tank strike at one point whatever solution we go for, I feel.

Charis

Jan 13, 2003, 07:54 AM

The Imams and Abus have spoken much wisdom....

- Even total victory against Aztecs would not be 'enough'
- The actions against India and Egypt are important, but longer term
- Careful reading of the ancient texts show that a benefit of avoiding war up to the point of learning Chivalry is the ability to crank Ansars between the point of learning it and declaration
- Cultural bldgs 'can' be rushed when there is a clear and present need for them, but the preferred rushing technique later on if we captured/found many towns will be railroad+irrigation+poprush
- Missionary Mosque is crucial to our plans

And so, we seem to have a verdict...

The first Crusade shall be against the Aztecs!! :hammer:
Their cultural pressure and their lack of acceptance of the faith (no flips!), and their stealing of the Great Library, has brought this upon their own heads!

- Missionary Mosque shall get whatever economic assistance is needed to finish its remaining buildings and build a holy barracks and harbor
- Consider the value of allying with someone like Iro who will give Chivalry or some tech for an alliance. If that route, get the rax in MM and upgrade all horses on the turn we ally and enter war. If not Chivalry from them, but elsewhere, we can switch production in Holy Land to Ansars and get a force of one or two dozen asap, ship them into position, and then declare
- The declaration of crusade must be honorable! (After any existing deal is over, and with no units inside their territory!)
- A caution in that if we get Chivalry before declaring against Aztecs and then have war declared on us, the ancient texts overrule our plans and our crusade will be against the aggressor civ!
- During the war, Prophets Isle and many places will crank defensive troops, for this is much needed. Note barracks can be built during war, even if other cultural buildings are not all done!
Also, during war, non-barracks cities make good cannon sites
- The two goals of the Crusade are the capture of the Aztec capital and the kickoff of our Golden Age. If we can do that, perhaps take 1-2 other cities, build up some defense and get some barracks, we can take peace and start to plan for the next crusade against a bigger fish (likely a Cav campaign)
- Note we cannot intentional starve down a city (but with lux stuck at 10% it might happen unintentionally), nor can we raze one! This is where the govt-swap and whip-down will help us out the most. :D

General JMB is in charge of the preparations for this holy crusade! Depending on his choices it might see the start of the conflict, or it may setup the next leader. May his judgement and faith be true!! :hammer:

Abu Charis

PS EDIT - Fast forward response to Cartouche - the Crusade rule says we must declare on the turn we get our first Ansar warrior(s), not when we get Chivalry - for the Holy Ansars must lead that charge! A leader with good timing could have several ansars popping out along with the upgraded ones together, to make the start as strong as possible. Not a huge difference, but it might help.

Cartouche Bee

Jan 13, 2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Charis

- Consider the value of allying with someone like Iro who will give Chivalry or some tech for an alliance. If that route, get the rax in MM and upgrade all horses on the turn we ally and enter war. If not Chivalry from them, but elsewhere, we can switch production in Holy Land to Ansars and get a force of one or two dozen asap, ship them into position, and then declare

I thought we had to be at war by the end of the turn that we get Chivalry. So the stock up of Ansars and then declaring war won't work. Just trying to keep on the same page. :)

Sirian

Jan 13, 2003, 10:08 AM

"We must declare war or be at war upon making our first Ansar" - so sayeth the Holy Writings.

The trigger isn't tied to the tech, as I read it, but to the unit. Once we have an actual Ansar unit, complete, either rolling out of production or upgraded, then if we're not already at war, it would have to start then.

So I believe Carthouche is right, there is no "build up Ansars, then start the crusade".

That may be why it was suggested to rush the cultural buildings at M Mosque? And then harbor and barracks? So that we have all these horse, and the units are in place prior to upgrading them en masse?

Surely that seems prudent, but it's also somewhat pushing the letter of the rule rather vigorously. So sayeth alFerengi. Who's running this crusade anyway? "How am I supposed to, erm, "oversee" all the military payrolls, ah, for pious reasons in pursuit of Holy Profit-- What? No no, I said the Holy Prophet! You withered-ear infidel-sucking blood leech. Erm... where was I? Oh. Oh, yes. In pursuit of Holy Profits. Yes yes. How will the latinum start flowing if all the tightwad, conservative, careful and unholy secularist generals are in charge of this thing??? Is this a HOLY CRUSADE OR WHAT? Where's the, erm, religious fervor? That's what fills my pockets, you know. All those orders for weapons, coffins, flags, uniforms... What? Ah... see. SEE! That is just what I mean. Infidel questions, infidel beliefs. You dare to suggest that Holy Fervor on the part of our warriors would lead to anything less than the fulfillment of Most Holy Profits??? You believe the generals know better than the ancient writings? That is just what's wrong with this country these days. The children don't have the ears for this, I'm telling you. Running all scared, as if it might be His Will that we should be defeated in battle by those who do not revere His Name. Scheming and mucking about like wretches before the mighty so-called gods of Egypt. Bah."

- Sirian

Cartouche Bee

Jan 13, 2003, 12:50 PM

Ahhh,

- We must declare war or be at war upon making our first Ansar when Chivalry is reached.
That war cannot end until capture of a capital or wonder (Crusade rule)

I had interpreted 'making' as setting production 'to' rather than the act of 'completing' the production.

Now it ties together and means that our declaration can have an immediate bite. The sun now sets on the infidels.

JMB

Jan 14, 2003, 01:02 AM

Ok, here we go...

0 - Dial up Ragnar, Isabella, and Hiawatha asking for donations (so their citizens can pass quickly and peacefully through our lands on their pilgramages to the most holiest of cities - Mecca). Ragnar offers 10 gpt. Isabella, 100 gold. And Hiawatha 118 gold and 5 gpt. The Chinese were allowed to continue traveling through our lands unhindered for 1 gpt and their WM. These contributions will provide the finances to rush a university in Missionary Mosque (396 gp). We begin ferrying troops over to Missionary Mosque.

Interesting, I've never seen a forest with a wheat... :)

Sometime in the early thirties, we rush a colosseum in Missionary Mosque (436 gp). Wow! the Indians are already building Universal Sufferage.

Big oops... I wasn't paying too much attention to the map, and it appears that someone else (Egypt) has already razed Tenotchilan (sp?). Spain and Egypt sign a military alliance versus the Aztecs and the Spanish begin Universal Sufferage. The Egyptians take Teotihuacan.

Barracks were rushed in MM for 140 gold, so that perhaps we can get in on the action before Egypt eliminates the Aztecs. Of course, I had fogotten about our peace treaty with the Aztecs (5 more turns); I guess I shouldn't have rushed the barracks. Next, I consider using some of our horsemen to form a blockade against the Egyptians. Our horsemen make the journey to Tabuk, but are too late. The Egyptians have taken the two Aztec cities closest to our borders.

Alas, our crusade against the Aztecs was not to be. The Aztecs are down to one size 4 city. Having seen the copious quantities of cavalry the Egyptians own, I seriously doubt the Aztecs will survive another turn. In light of this, I decide to trade them 136 gpt for Chivalry, Military Tradition, and Magnetism. Sure enough, the Egyptians destroy the Aztecs. (If people consider my above actions exploitative, I can replay this turn). The death of the Aztecs did not affect our reputation...

Grrr... Currently, we have peace treaties with the Iroquois, Celts, Spain and the Scandanavians (13 turns), Persia (8 turns), Babylon (6 turns), China (5 turns), and India, Japan, and Egypt (0 turns; straight up peace treaties). Egypt is WAY too strong for us to take on at present. According to the guidance of our Holy Texts, our first Crusade must continue until we have captured a wonder containing city or the capital of another civilization. The main problem is, I do not know who should be the target of our first Crusade and will wait to the guidance of more learned men (and women :)) than I.

(BTW, we have Chivalry, but no Ansar warriors (yet). I switched Medina from an Ansar warrior (due in 2 turns) to a University. This can be vetoed, should the learned ones feel we should commence our First Crusade within the next two decades)

Upon informing the wisemen of the current situation, JMB retires for the evening, with prayers and supplications to Allah for guidance in these most turbulent and confusing times... Having received a vision from Allah early on in his life, JMB knows that he has yet three decades to continue to shape the Holy Lands before his death. (EDIT: In the short interval between being awake and asleep, a vision of surprising clarity and force comes to JMB. In it, he realizes the error of his ways (cash rushing buildings) and the great wisdom of al-Ferengi who indicated that such a course of action, while not violating the Ancient Texts, would surely vex Allah...)

The save file can be found at: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3Arabs1170AD.zip

JMB

Skyfish

Jan 14, 2003, 03:14 AM

Indeed we have sinned my brothers and sister.
Allah has not been kind to us.

Sirian

Jan 14, 2003, 05:58 AM

The infidel Egyptians would not DARE to tread upon holy ground. We would lead a coalition against them, from which their civilization would be reduced to ashes.

They have RAZED Tenochtitlan? :lol: Now that's just too funny. If ever there was a clearer sign from above about whom we should target with holy wrath, I've not heard of it. If we had been there sooner, our poor misguided brethren the Aztecs would still be alive, and living good lives under the guidance of Arabic wisdom and justice and mercy. The great Satan Cleopatra must be our target! And as foreseen by Abu alFerengi, the Hindus should be our allies in this crusade.

- Sirian

Charis

Jan 14, 2003, 04:24 PM

> I seriously doubt the Aztecs will survive another turn. In light of
> this, I decide to trade them 136 gpt for Chivalry, Military
> Tradition, and Magnetism. Sure enough, the Egyptians destroy
> the Aztecs. (If people consider my above actions exploitative, I
> can replay this turn). The death of the Aztecs did not affect our
> reputation...

:eek: Oh my! I almost hopped in and started a big :nono:
then thought, to be safe, I would check the savefile and see.

There's no discernable effect on our reputation or credit??

When did this change occur?? I could have sworn that if you bought 'hard goods' for gpt and the opposing civ died out, you were considered a cheat, and could no longer get gpt credit. (Not to be confused with being a liar, who makes peace and breaks an alliance)

I could buy tech for either 1400g or 70gpt, the AI was just as ready to deal. Likewise a world map for about 20 g or 1gpt, just fine. Anyone know how this is handled in PTW?

This has been considered a phony trade, and a no-no. It carried an in-game punishment of the AI no longer giving you credit.
Most of us at one time have done it, or didn't know the implication (I remember doing this myself in RBD3 and thinking it rather clever, until I saw I ruined our trading ability!)

Thing is, for dying civs, I've never considered it as bad in any sense of the word as in doing something like making a tech for gpt deal then going to war next turn to break the deal. If *I* were the small country about to go under, I would gladly give tech for gpt and hope I could survive. If they've changed the mechanics in PtW for civ-death, we'll need to reconsider the honor or exploitativeness of this 'trick'. In any case, it's a done deal and we don't replay to get around such things - we'll make the best of it.

For this game, from a 'role' sense, I find it most natural to think of this as something questionable and flog ourselves for trying to extract tech from a dying civ rather than save them or share the faith :P So Abu-Charis might sound more upset than Charis does in upcoming posts :lol: (So don't take it wrong, it's not a problem!) Teno razed?? oh-MY-my! (Hey, get some settlers over there, hurry!)

Were you planning to go 3 more turns? Or are you done at 1170? I would be interested in picking it up when you say done or post a 1200 save. If someone else wants to hop in though I will defer, things are going to hit the fan when Abu gets back in power :P (Charislatinum thinks it's a great idea to ally with the Hindus, while Abu-C would tear his clothes if he even heard such a thing spoken!)

On a more strategic note... sheesh, now what? As far as a new 'target' capital or wonder? We can't come to peace from the first crusade until we have such a city captured! Thebes is the only Egyptian target, and that's far away. And expect six-eight rifles when we get there. Other civs have not deserved the wrath of a crusade, though. With Teno gone, things are a mess!

:crazyeye:
Charis

JMB

Jan 14, 2003, 08:59 PM

Charis, like you, I usually consider the tech for gpt deal sort of a last lifeline for a dying civ (perhaps they might be able to hold out another round (it has occasionally helped me...)). I don't think that they've completely changed the reputation rules for PTW. I can't seem to recall a time when making gpt for tech deals (to a dying civ; patch 1.29f) that the player was punished. The unfair reputation stains seemed only to occur when the player was supplying the dying civ with a luxury or a resource.

From 1170 to 1200 AD... Having tossed and turned the entire night (a guilty conscience from arranging the uncharitable tech for gpt deal with the Aztecs and my inability to save the Aztecs (by a blockade around their cities)), self-flaggelation seems the appropriate course of action. After 100 lashings, and countless prayers for forgiveness, I read the letters sent from the wisemen of Arabia and decide on the most appropriate course of action (i.e., let the next leader decide... :)).

Fustat changed from a coloseum to a settler (due next turn) to try to snag some of the lands around Teno. We are the least technologically advanced civilization. With our current income at 224 gpt, I decide to make a few deals. Magnetism at last from the Iroquois for 52 gpt and our WM. Our wm and 101 gpt to China for Medicine. Steam Power from Japan for our WM, Medicine, and 23 gpt. We are up both Steam and Medicine on the Scandanavians but Ragnar refuses to part with Nationalism for Steam, Medicine, and 47 gpt (our remaining income). Renegotiate our ROP with Brennus for 25 gp. MM switched from a harbor to a courthouse, but this can be vetoed if desired. Looking at the maps of our Holy Lands, we realize that the black geological formations outside of Medina are coal, and our workers begin constructing railroads to permit our populace to travel through the Holy Land more easily.

Disease strikes Latinum Trading Outpost, reducing it's population back to 1000. The Iroquois, Celts, Chinese, and Persians all begin Sufferage. Barracks are constructed in a few size 12 Holy Land cities in preparation for our eventual Crusade...

During the last decade of my reign, nothing much happens. Workers are currently being skimmed off of size 12 Holy LAnd cities to aid with railroad construction. Basra will produce a granary in 3 turns, but as it has already maxed out it's population, it could be switched to something else. There is a Settler and a Horseman outside the Egyptian city of Xochicalco. The next leader can decide where to settle (to the ne of the ruins? There really isn't anywhere in that region where we can settle without engaging in cultural wars with Egypt...). The workers on Profits Isle are fortified because we still don't have a harbor over there. However, we might be able to build one in Merw sometime soon (I forgot to check). Ragnar is still lacking Medicine and Steam Power (he is the only one). Unfortunately, he still isn't willint to part with Nationalism for a reasonable price. Keep an eye on him in case he comes into some money...

Who should we take on in our First Crusade? I have no clue. We could try to take out the Spanish or the Scandanavians (they have another coal source just outside of Hareid) as they are pressuring some of our cities in the north. Unfortunately, we are currently locked into peace treaties with them. We might be able to get Ragnar to declare on us if we try to steal Nationalism (or something else. I can't remember for sure, but I think he might be annoyed with us...)

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3Arabs1200AD.zip

JMB

Architect

Jan 14, 2003, 09:01 PM

Don't be so sure about it not affecting your reputation in PTW. I actually tried this recently in a private game I'm playing as the Ottomans. The very turn before a civ was about to die, I made a tech for gpt trade. After they died, I seemed to suffer no ill consequences but later in that same game I had some deals go up in smoke with the Aztecs when they died and now no one will trade me GPT for tech anymore. Really pissed me off and pretty much ruined the game. Off course, now I've resulted to using espionage as its much better then GPT anyway.

I'm wondering if the deal is only consumated from the reputation side of things if a payment is made. Since the Aztecs were eliminate before our next turn, they never could come collect on the payment so the game never had a chance to determine the deal was broken. Could be a bug.

Is espionage ok in this game btw? Doesn't seem "holy" to me.

Architect

Jan 14, 2003, 10:08 PM

Sorry about double posting but I hate it when people edit posts and add lots of extra stuff:

After I read JMB's reply I went back and tested a few things about deals and rep and I found out some pretty interesting things I didn't realize.

Did you know that you can run a totally negative cash flow and only lose one building and one worker a turn? I was running -400 on my treasury and maxing science and luxuries for 4 turn techs without gpt deals being broken or my reputation being affected. I got a popup saying that a worker was disbanded and then it would pick ONE random building in ONE town to disband. So after 4 turns I had researched invention for 4 workers, 2 granaries, a temple, and a marketplace. I could move my treasury to max gold, go make gpt deals and then drop my treasure back to 4 turn techs with no other impact I can see to my rep or infrastructure. Does anyone else think that this technique is exploitive??? You are "punished" by the loss of a random building and a worker, but that's it. I always thought in past versions it would disband all the buildings you had until you paid up. Maybe this change was put in to lessen the blow to the AI? Or has it always been this way and I just never bothered to check?

I also verified that if I broke a luxury deal by pillaging my own resources I could no longer do gpt for tech deals. I tried a deal with only other luxuries and resources and that made no difference. I also tried breaking the deal before a turn expired and that made no difference either.

So the moral of the story seems to be that you can make gpt deals and never fear them being broken either by a civ dying or you being unable to pay and your rep is unaffected. I don't know what happens when you have no more units or buildings.

I wish one of the better equipped analyzer types would really run through the gambit on these issues.

Now, back to spreading the faith...

Sirian

Jan 14, 2003, 10:23 PM

If you have resources or lux going to a civ when they die out, your rep is stained. If you have a trade embargo against a civ who dies out, your rep is stained. (No kidding). Having gpt payments going to a civ when they die out brings no rep hit.

Now... how soon are we attacking Egypt??? :lol:

- Sirian

Charis

Jan 14, 2003, 11:07 PM

What do me by 'stained'? I know in general, but on the 1170AD save file, there is no visible impact whatsoever. We can still give gpt deals, even large ones (ie magnetism for about 70gpt), and get the normal ~20 gold valuation for 1gpt.

We saw this odd behaviour to a small degree in RBP3. It seemed that with some civs (not sure which or why) we lost gpt rights, while with others we did not. Then it seemed our gpt valuation dropped, so the 'nicer' civs would trade gpt for us, but only at around 10 or so gold value for 1 gpt.

In a recent game I saw a civ die out just one turn AFTER I finished a deal with them that involved me paying them some piddly amount of gpt. I was curious and reloaded a few turns back, took an action that would help their foe, and saw them die with the deal in place. My rep was blackened - no one would take any gpt from me for anything of value. For the tiny amount of gold at stake, 19 turns into the deal, I would have been sickened to see the game ruined if things had turned out slightly different for the dying civ!

The self-flaggelation was I *hope* just in story, not in reality. Don't sweat it - the action was not meant to be dastardly, and we're still trying to figure out the exact implications. It will probably end up on the 'dastardly' list if someone else wipes them out and an exploit if you wipe them out :P

Architect, as for your huge deficit and lose one small building, yes that's an exploit. It goes back several versions at least, created a big stir at CivFanatics for a while, and is considered exploitative cheese to do it on purpose.

As far as espionage is concerned in this game, I would probably steer clear of it unless vs a nation under "Jihad" status :P (It's not mentioned or disallowed by the rules however). For most of the RBP games I try to address uncovered things by "would it make sense for this civ to actually carry out this action?" Trying to save Aztecs sounds ok, stealing would be a big no-no, punishable by chopping off one's hand!

Egypt... no peace until Thebes... :eek: And yet... take a look
at the F4 faces. There is only ONE ugly mug that stands out and says "I'm your enemy! Let's go Bakr Boy, me and you, right here right now!" I wondered about naked Salamanca as the easiest pickings for a semi-sneak attack vs a capital. Then I looked at Hiawatha's face on F4... he seems to genuinely be our friend, and receptive to the faith! A crusade vs him would just be wrong.

I got caught up on other stuff tonight, and will be busy tomorrow night, so I won't be taking it anytime right away. Perhaps there is a clever tactician waiting in the wings for glory?!

Charis

JMB

Jan 15, 2003, 01:03 AM

Charis,

I used an elastic band on my wrist... :) The flagellation was just role-playing, the tossing and turning wasn't completely (I woke up at about 4.30 am thinking a bit about the game (and that it was already 6 am) and then promptly went back to sleep... :))

Have fun taking on Egypt! (they really need to be taken down a few notches soon... They have the Pyramids and Sun Tzu (not to mention Leo's and probably a couple of others...), which, as several players have noted, tends to result in that civ dominating most of the others...)

JMB

Charis

Jan 17, 2003, 07:44 PM

Abu Charis returned from the mountain and found that all
the generals were busy praying and preparing for holy month,
and so no one was found to address the issue of the crusade (or, as Charislatinum suggested, they all had more sense than that!!) So did the Abu take the reigns of power, and he spoke of taking 'decisive action'

:eek:

"got it"
Abu Charis

PS Here's a harbinger of events to come...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-FirstFlipHareid1200AD.jpg

Our first 'converts'!! :hammer:

Charis

Jan 18, 2003, 12:18 AM

Abu Charis started his reign looking over the empire, and looking
over his options.

His people were in the Industial Age. They had shared their faith with NO ONE,
and one civilization has gone to its grave not hearing the message. This was
a travesty that could continue to longer. We were due to learn a new form of
govt in 2 turns. We're mid-peace for >10 turns with EVERYONE except Egypt,
and Babylon and Persia for a few more turns. There are SIX Egypt cav within
striking range of Latinum outpost, two near Tabuk. To upgrade our 15 horse would
take 900g. We're in MPP with India. NO harbors, no barracks on Prophets' Isle,
although Merw was not far off.

There was also quite some disparity in techs between nations, meaning perhaps
a brokering opportunity.

Tech list: EVERYONE has Democracy and expensive Nationalism.
Japan, Babylon and Vikings have nothing more than this. (Vikings lack a few even)
Celts also have Industrialization. Iroquois and China have these plus Sanitation.
Egypt, India, and Persia have all these and also Electricity

Elec seems out of range. Persia will sell Sanitation for 655g+35gpt. India 510g+35gpt.

[0] Clearly al-Ferengi was not our predecessor. Before doing anything our WM was
sold around bringing over 100g to our coffers!

We consider buying Sanitation, but it's Electricity we want. The former probably
won't be valuable enough to get us anything, while Electricity would pick up all
unknown techs. So we hold off a bit on trading.

What we do however, is to prepare Ansars for...

... a CRUSADE!! :hammer:

A fair amount of cities, mid-project, can make one in 4-8 turns. The Abu expects
two turns needed to 'have a serious talk with the people, and so sets a date...
1275AD, ten turns hence, we shall embark upon a Holy Crusade! The foe shall be
Egypt the wicked unless some other shall raise their hand and say "Nay, smack ME
down, oh wise Abu! Bring US to our deaths!!!!" Cities in that range are adjusted
to finish in precisely 8 turns. Those doing it too fast are reviewing in subsequent
turns, so they will complete in that same year.

This turn, Kufah, Fez and Hama all answer the call!
Najran switches to barracks, then starts Ansar. Same for Anjar.

The following nations join an embargo against the vile wretch Cleoputra:
India, Spain, Babylon, Iroquois, and Persia.

(IBT) Spain and Celts join an MPP. (Good, if we ally with one...) The huge
Egyptian cav stack runs west, out of view.

The people of Hareid are SO overjoyed that the Abu is preparing for a holy crusade
sends them into paroxysms of pleasure, and they overthrow their oppressors, yearning
to join us! We accept. (Too bad for the Vikings...)

[1] 1210 AD - Najran, Anjar and Muscat start Ansars. (Spain and China now have Elect)

Iro still don't have Electricity, so can we get it now? Spain wants... too much.
They will pay about 700gold for our coal if we wanted to do without for 20 turns?
Speaking of Coal... Hareid has some!! We can probably get that hooked up before end
of 20 and restore our supply! We'll need one more turn to 'space out' workers instead
of having them work in groups, to take advantage of this opportunity.

[2] 1220 AD - Democracy arrives, so we revolt... and immediately are asked for a new
government. We clearly choose De...

...spotism???? The Abu falls for a day of prayer, fasting, and SPANKING!

:wallbash: :spank:

The people are lashed, told to repent of their sins, shamed for their faithlessness,
and told to get their current projects finished and *NOW*!
The list of those sacrificed toward projects -

Muscat(1) toward a barracks for the crusade. Mansura(2) for a harbor towards the Isle.
Fez(2) for a granary to store food for the upcoming famine, Atzcat(1) towards Cathedral,
Balkh(3) for a Colosseum, Mosul(3) towards Colosseum, Aydab(3) for a Colosseum.
Missionary Mosque begs "Let us too, be whipped, and set an example of faith for the
people!!!" Three missionaries zealously die in the construction of a glorious harbor
which will connect this Holy City with the rest of the Holy Land! : sniff :
Taif is encouraged by this braveness, and hurls three missionaries to complete a
colosseum! Hama is double whipped to complete a cathedral. Tabuk does not escape
the zealous party, contribuing one toward a cathedral. The Latinum outpost is somehow
spared, as it's size was only one. Of course the Latinum lovers there express DEEP
regret that they too could not sacrifice for the faith! Even the mainland joins in,
Basra losing one for a granary. Suhar(1) towards Library. Fustat(1) towards Colosseum.

Shihr is founded, which means "Site of old Tenocity razed by evil witch"

With the cleansing of souls complete, and a new site founded, we again revolt...

(IBT) China wants to sell us Free Artistry for 10g. Uh, ok, sure.

[3] 1230 AD - And we become a democracy. We can definitely use the double speed
workers with the railroading coming up.

(Charislatinum surveys the carnage and low morale throughout the civilization as
a result of the religious fervor. He hopes they won't have to do THAT again
unless we've got a new bumper crop of 30 ex-Egyptian cities to whip cathedrals in!
He counts the casualties at 27 (!) and the war hasn't even begun yet!)

The people are reminded that the crusade is due in 8 seasons, 1275AD.
Mecca answers the call, starts an Ansar! So does Missionary Mosque!

While the Abu is out preaching, Charislatinum comes in to the office to carry out
his bookkeeping tasks. While he's there, he authorizes the rushing, in cash, of the
colosseum on Profits isle so that a harbor may be rushed their next to bring more
latinu... er... faith, to the people! He also notes the tech situation and does this:

He sells our ONLY coal to Spain in a deal along with 1346g and 50gpt for Electricity,
giving an MPP which saved 40g (and will be useful soon!) (To do this he had to temporarily
cook the boo... er... shift accounts receivables... to make it seem like we had that much
income) The Iro and Celts lack Electricity but have Sanitation. He trades Electricity
to Iro for Sanitation, 30gpt and 46g, plus MPP. Then Elect to Celts for Industrialization
and some change. Then these new techs to Vikings for Nationalism and Wines. These to
Babylon for Communism and MPP. He then goes back and readjusts Accounts Payable, and...
Voila!! We have virtually no debt! So we gained FIVE techs for about 1k. And got some MPP.

He also notes, *VERY* sadly, that Egypt, India, Persia and Spain all have Replaceable Parts!!
The Abu is going to go ballistic, something about lack of faith... At least he won't
ask why we're now working on hospitals and factories!! :P

(IBT) Ack, our MPP with India expires, and they will NOT renew?! Egads, they're
not bucking to be the target of an MPP-enhanced crusade are they?! Several AI start Suffrage.

[4] 1240 AD - Egypt now has Corporation too. So does India? Is Cleo bedding G-man??
Spain has it too? Oh my, a three-way?

All Ansars in production are adjusted to be due in exactly 6 turns.

(IBT) India's ROP expires, and they won't renew unless they pay. G-man... easy boy!

[5] 1250 AD - Our ivory purchase with Japan expires, for which we paid 22gpt.
Now we let him have Sanitation for the Ivory. Sheesh, to MPP it will take
Industrialization too. Still, it's worth it to see the vile cur squirm!

[6] 1255 AD - We connect the coal outside Harreid, and our railroading continues!

[7] 1260 AD - Damascus, Allepo and Muscat hear the call and start Ansars!
I didn't notice before, but Hiawatha is in the Coporation-RepParts bed too?!

(IBT) Get this... Cleo the vile cur of the night, demands tribute of Holy Arabia!!!

World map and 36g??? It may as well be a request for a million dollars and a night of pleaseure with al-Ferengi's wife!!

We rant and rave and declare she will march on our towns and we shall see them
commit suicide at our gates!!

Over 36 gold and the url to mapquest... she declares war!!

:ripper: * C R U S A D E * :rocket:

Bring it on!! Your hundreds of cavalry shall fall dead at the feet of our
Ansars! (Once we have them!)

A yellow Cavalry attacks our horse defender at Shihr, former site of Teno! (gulp) and...

Japan declares war on Egypt!!
Babylon declares war on Egypt!! :hammer:
Iroquois declare war on Egypt!!
Spain declares war on Egypt!! :hammer:

Shihr is the sacrificial lamb. Surely once we found another city there we will claim
it as a shrine to the Aztec people and the martyrs of Shihr!!
That's the ONLY attack. The one or two cav near us run *AWAY*! They fear our horsemen!!!
May the merciful one be praised!

[8] 1265 AD - First thing we do is see about the other world powers. India can actually
be bought for alliance, for about 250g. Babylon will pay *us*. (We do that immediately)
Persia can be bought too, for 170g. China wants a ton more, and is too far away anyway.
If we get India, her entire continent will be against her. That should be enough!
He's bought for 13gpt. (It's almost shameful to ally with such a man)

Whatever Ansars were slowed for a synchronous release are now sped up again.
Prophet's Isle is nervous and vulnerable, with just warrior defenders. Their harbor
is due in Merw in 5, after which they can build Ansars, or draft Rifles.

Draft Rifles. What a grand idea! The people will surely THRILL at the chance to give
their sons and daughters to aid the crusade!! (Too bad, just one tech away from Replaceable
Parts, so we go light on the draft for now) Our income drops just below zero, but
Charislatinum goes door-to-door selling maps to make up the difference.

In Missionary Mosque, we have a sacred Ordination ceremony, as we upgrade our first
Holy Ansar Warrior!!

(IBT) Persia and Celts sign MPP. (Hmm, are Celts still MPP with Spain? Will Egypt
attack Spain? If so this will go nicely) Uh, not SO good. Celts and Egypt ally
vs Iroquois. Shoot. This next one figures too: Egypt and Vikings ally vs Japan.

Ha!! There was an MPP. Celts DO declare war on Egypt! Wow is this ugly!
Vikings declared against Celts, so we may be dragged in at some point with
Persia, Vikings, or BOTH, if they bring real attacks to the Iro or Japan!

[9] 1270 AD - At end of last turn we saw the Egyptian city of Texcoco, in the middle
of land outside Tabuk, all by itself. So we sent three MDI into the jungle to
attack their lone cav defender. Midturn three cav flew out of nowhere to slay them.
But... the faith of Abu prevailed!!! That ONE Ansar we ordained last turn...
likewise flew, down the rails from the Mosque to Tabuk, and attacked the arrogant
cav... and won!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-GoldenAge1270AD.jpg

GOLDEN AGE for ARABIA!!! :hammer:

I'm going to stop right now, as my goal was to get us up the point of a crusade
and get it started, with an Ansar in place to start off the Golden Age. Having done
then things now shift to Cavalry production, and having a plan that you can see through
for 11 turns (one extra, even up the year :P ). There's also the 'factory' option,
and the 'hospital' option, as we've started war at an AWKWARD time for building.

I've sold the WM all around this turn already. There are a few ships around, and a few
of the conscript rifles near them if you want to send some to Prophets' Isle or to
the war zone.

Remember, there can be NO peace with Egypt until we capture one of their wonders
or the capital (presently Thebes, but that might change with five foes against her)

With the Golden Age our income skyrockets from -4 to +210 gpt!

Save File 1270AD Arabs (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-1270AD.zip)

Carefully look over the situation and have a plan before doing much here :D
Good luck!

Griselda

Jan 18, 2003, 12:39 AM

The team of Abu Charis and Charislatinum have ruled well indeed! :hammer: :goodjob: :hammer:

:worshp:

-Griselda

Skyfish

Jan 18, 2003, 04:13 AM

:worshp:
A masterful set of moves...Beautiful !
Long live AbuCharisLatinum !
:worshp:

I say the Glorious Land of Faith requires AlFerenghi's leadership to lead us to attack.

Sirian

Jan 18, 2003, 06:49 AM

"We're sorry. The number you have dialed, 1-800-P-R-O-F-I-T-S, is not in service. Please check the listing and dial again."

Skyfish

Jan 18, 2003, 12:13 PM

DAMN I hate those 0800 numbers !
I guess Ben Skyfish we'll have to do this himself then....got it :(

Skyfish

Jan 20, 2003, 01:46 PM

Well, faithful people, I have been out of computer for the last 2 days as I had to travel for personal reasons and I was only able to manage 5 turns and no nice report.

The situation is the following : even with Cavs, Egypt has at least 2 Infantry in every city and I just do not see how we can advance much further without Tanks. I have to be honest here and this is quite frankly "out of my ball game here", I just dont' see how I can do it, sorry !

I have played 5 turns and gained 2 cities from Egypt, extending our foothold on Missionary Mosque land. But what should we do now ? Go on losing loads of Cavs to fortified Infantry knowing Thebes is like 5 or 6 cities from here or should we use our Golden Age to amass some cash to get us to Tanks ASAP ?
I believe in the latter but I do not want to take the decison myself so I leave it open to debate beteen ourselves.
At the moment we spend 200 g/turn on upgrading our Horsemen to Cavs as we can not produce enough Cavs/turn to have a big offensive. But is that money well spent ? :confused:

Very short report :

1270ad : switching to barracks in Tabuk, Latinum to rifleman Atzacapo to Cav.
IBT : Ragnor wants ROP, we sell him for 67g, Babs want ROP but dont'want to pay, OK....
Persia & Egypt ally vs Japan & India. Our musket defeats a cav. in Tabuk.
We get a Palace Extension.
1275AD : moving forces. prod switch to mil units. Miss. Mosque has 15 horseman -> 100g to upgrade to cav. we can afford 2 /turn : let's prepare the offensive.
IBT : Bab & Persia ally vs Japan, peace with Scandinavia, ROP with China for 1gpt, Scandinavia & Persia ally vs India. Not good !
Peace with Spain, Peace with Iro. Babs attack Japan, MPP with Japan activated. Persia & Egypt sign alliance vs us.
China & Egypt alliance vs Celts. What a mess !
We lose one musketman in Tabuk but had reinforcements.
1280ad : we kill one cav with one of our upgraded cav.
Alliance with Spain, Celts and Iros vs Egypt
IBT Spain declares war vs Chinese, Persia vs Chinese, Iros declares vs Persians, Celts & Spain declare vs Persians
One of our musketman defends vs a cav 'til last hp in Tabuk. Yeeha !
1285ad : SoD assembled near Texcoco, Ansars & cavs, we take the city get an Elite Ansar, the MDI in Latinum
trading Outpost kills a Persian spear.
SoD moves towards Teotihuacan
IBT : trade embargos vs us from China & Egypt, Kyoto builds universal suff.
1290ad : nasty persian galleon & ironclad lurking towards us, profit's isle ???? SoD successful in taking Teotihuacan
vs 2 infantries, lose 2 cavs & 2 ansars. Ansar takes out a Persian Archer menacing Latinum Trading Outpost.

What are we pious believers to do ?
Oh Enlighten us please Allah !

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_1290_AD.SAV

Sirian

Jan 20, 2003, 05:01 PM

Glorious victory reports from the front! Allah be praised.

Charis

Jan 21, 2003, 07:44 AM

Cleo... nay, ClEVIL, is truly a vile and wretched cur, and any of her dogs that are on her leash had best fear the wrath of our great nation!

Speaking of great evil, something ate the file upload and banished it to the void! Skyfish, please re-upload and/or edit the link. (The problem showed up for many people and is said to be fixed now)

Who is bold enough to face the odds in front of us?? (When the link is up I'll download and look at the game and comment, but as I had it just 20yrs ago I won't be taking this one)

Abu Charis

PS Thanks much for the words (icons) of encouragement :P Yet both Abu Charis and Charis himself humbly request that the worshp icon never be used of him - the goodjob icon is much preferred!!!!!! Thanks!

Sirian

Jan 21, 2003, 07:49 AM

:worshp: No worship smilie for Charis! :worshp: Yes, Holy Abu! We understand! :worshp:

Charis --> :wallbash: :crazyeye: :rolleyes:

alFerengi --> ;) :lol:

Charis

Jan 21, 2003, 08:01 AM

:rolleyes:

I **knew**, as I was hitting submit reply, that I would get that reponse from *SOMEONE*. Little did I know however, who, or that it would be within about 90 secs of my post.

:rotfl:

I should have known al-Ferengi would find such amusing :P

:spank:

Charis

Skyfish

Jan 21, 2003, 08:13 AM

Sorry we have sinned Holy Abu !
No more stupid worships or the wrath of Allah will descend on Charis the Fearsome.

We'll re-up-load in about 2 hours when I am home.

Skyfish

Jan 21, 2003, 11:04 AM

Hope this works :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-_Arabs,_1290_AD.zip

Come on guys have a go it's an OPEN SG you know !

Sirian

Jan 22, 2003, 07:37 AM

We hunger for more news from the front! HOW GOES THE WAR??? Surely somebody can bring us this information. Who is it going to be?

Architect

Jan 22, 2003, 09:37 PM

I really want to answer the call here, but I'm thinking we are going to not be very effective offensively right now. I would much rather see us build up our forces for the next 15 turns, milking our golden age for as much money and sheilds as possible and then do a massive attack. Trying to trickle attack calvary in against riflemen and infantry defenders while in a represtative governement is a great way to piss our people off. My suggestion would be to be defensive at this point (keep the crusade on but just don't attack) and build up our forces.

Any thoughts on this direction?

Charis

Jan 22, 2003, 10:23 PM

A preliminary non-detailed look at the map and comments suggested that your course of action is most prudent, Imam Architect. It would be one matter if we just had to take a city or two then peace, but we are at WAR all the way until we take their capital or a wonder city. Letting the people build defenses, *especially* on Prophet's Isle and near the front, seems a good course of action.

Go for it! Let our Golden Age propel us to victory!

Abu Charis

Architect

Jan 22, 2003, 11:02 PM

Got it. I'm going to even out the turns too so I'll play more than 10 finishing out our golden age and getting us ready for the real war. Not like we are just busting out with players....

Architect

Jan 23, 2003, 03:11 PM

Post-turn pre-turn analysis: I decided not to focus on building up troops and instead focus on building our infrastructure. We had so many holes in our core cities everytime I went to build another military unit I had to choose a building instead. Now most of our core cities are on their way to 12 and we managed to take 5 cities in the process. Our attack on the core of egypt is going to have to come from tanks. I played as many turns as I did to even up the year, see my TOE jump complete, and complete the railnets. Hope I didn't step outside my bounds.

1290AD(0) - I survey the scene for violations of the ancient texts and find many. I can see no justification for building riflemen in cities that have cultural options so I veto many. I notice the angry Eyptians in Teotihuacan will starve to death this turn and there is nothing I can do about it without plunging the city into disorder causing more deaths. So sad they will die but Allah wills it... I notice our reputation is tarnished now as we cannot trade techs for any amount of gpt. This must have occured when all the MPPs triggered. We are sorely lacking in workers in the holy land. So many work the worthless jungles. I will be shipping some back to work the homeland. The power of rails will surely bring glory to allah and our core cities. I switch Merw from rifleman to barracks so we can upgrade our defenders on profits isle. I move our Scientist to Teotihaucan as Fez is a good core city that needs to grow. I switch our core cities to factories to try and get some real production improvement.

IT: persion ironclad and Galleon menace our shore near mecca. Do they dare establish a beachhead on the holy land?

1295AD(1) - Resistances end in former Aztec cities taken from the egyptians. Teotihaucan is so angry still they will not work at all without causing disorder. I place all six citizens to collect tax for Allah. I trade horses to our Heathen friends the Iroqouis for 20gpt. Many civs now have SciMeth.

(Architect gets out of character for the remainder of his turn)

1300AD(2) - I'm going to peel some workers off to get our railnet up faster.

IT: Persians land a horseman and immortal on the holy land.

1305AD(3) - We repulse the persian invaders. Workers arrive at the holy land.

IT: Our MPP forces us to declare war on scandinavia as they attack spain and we lose wines in the process. This could be bad for unrest...

1310AD(4) - The unrest is minimal but the deals that got cancelled due to our auto-Mpp put is to 383gpt from 220gpt. Ouch for the vikings.

1315AD(5) - Railnet is coming along better now.

IT: Spanish navy sinks some persians.

1320AD(6) - More build-up.

1325AD(7) - We capture sardis from the persians. I'm build 4 coal plants in our biggest cities.

IT: We renew our embargos against egypt.

1330AD(8) - The resistance in Sardis ends and it takes 4 entertainers to make one citizen content. The build-up continues along with infrastructure improvements.

1335AD(9) - More build-up. I am moving on Edfu to try and get a fur resource. Some MPPs are

about to expire.

IT: the celts sign an embargo against us.

1340AD(10) - We take Edfu killing two infantry and only losing 1 calvary and we now have a 3rd coal resource to be hooked up.

IT: China signs a MPP with spain, declares on the egyptians and ends their embargo against us. Our MPP with spain ends and they won't renew. Iroquois want way to much to renew theirs.

1345AD(11) - We trade coal to spain for 48gpt. I trade dyes to india for 29gpt.

1350AD(12) - Three coal plants complete. I just notice that japan, vikings, persia, and babylon will take gpt deals in a peace treaty for tech, wow.... I trade 109gpt for RP with vikings. I then trade RP and 150gold to bab for espionage. Then I trade espionage , rp to to babylon for the corporation and 4 babylonian workers. We have no rubber hooked up but do have one resource near Tabuk. I get scimethod from persia for 171gold and 69gpt. No one has started TOE. I then trade Scimethod to Japan for Ivory, 190 and WM. We are 8 turns from TOE in Damascus and 11 turns from palace (Hoover) in Medina.

1355AD(13) - Ah the speed of RP workers. I trade Iron to Persia for 468gold, 14gpt and WM. I trade horses for 15gpt to the vikings.

1360AD(14) - We finally attack and capture Kahun with minimal loses. Our railnet is complete and now I'm optimizing our tiles for production. 5 turns to TOE.

IT: Ghandi wants to extend our alliance against the egyptians and will give us 140g.

1365AD(15) - Our first stock exchange completes in Bagdhad and I start the Intelligence agency. We know own furs.

1370AD(16) - Our golden age is about to end.

1375AD(17) - Our golden age ends. We are at 165gpt. We are now 5 turns from TOE and 7 from our hoover prebuild. Next turn I attack Calixtlahuaca.

1380AD(18) - We take Calix losing 3 calvary to 2 infantry. We take Ergil losing 1 cav to 2 cav. Those 4 cav loses jump WW to 35%.

1385AD(19) - Moving forces around and scouting the egyptian forces.

1390AD(20) -

1395AD(21) - TOE next turn and my reign is over.

1400AD(22) - TOE Hoover Warp initiated with completion of Hoover in 2 turns. 40 turns to radio. How long until the AI starts to do that? There are a bunch of cavs and 5 artillery outside Xochicalco. It has 2 infantry defenders. I wouldn't attack that city until the infantry are down to 1hp. To many more calvary deaths and you'll need to drop down to republic/monarcy.

I leave up to the next leader how to broker AT and Electronics. There are numerous civs that will enter in MPP with us. We are currently bound by only military alliances against egypt. It is to our benefit to sign them until we complete our crusade. There are also numerous civs that will go into an alliance vs. Egypt with us. This is also for the next leader to decide. I would continue building up infrastructure until we get wall street and then focus on artillery until tanks now. Keeping our democracy isn't that important but it has our income upto 208 with a net of 40 going to other civs.

Don't forget to sell the coal plants once hoover completes.

Oh.. err.. umm.. (Architect gets back into character) Praise be to allah.

1400AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-arabs-1400ad.zip)

Charis

Jan 23, 2003, 06:44 PM

Praise be to the Merciful one for the General Imam Architect!

> most of our core cities are on their way to 12, we managed to
> take 5 cities in the process... I played as many turns as I did to
> even up the year, see my TOE jump complete, and complete
> the railnets. Hope I didn't step outside my bounds.

Infrastructure, conquest, rails, and ToE leading to Hoover???!

The people of Arabia have no problem with that! :hammer:

Of course, there is a legalistic acolyte who points out that playing 12 instead of 10 is rounding off the years, playing 22 is technically referred to ask "sticking it to the heathen!" He is reminded that other imams had their phone busy, were up on a mountain, or lacked faith in the merciful one, so for this open SG, all is well. Tnx.

> I survey the scene for violations of the ancient texts and find
> many. I can see no justification for building riflemen in cities
> that have cultural options so I veto many.

Violations of the ancient texts?!?!??! :eek:
That is punishable by... DEATH! :cringe:

The Abu is summoned down from his mountaintop prayer session.
He looks at the ancient texts...

- Until Chivalry we may not build military other than at Medina,
except when at war
-- No problem, we're at war.
- No non-cultural bldg can be started if there is a cultural choice
available in that city
-- "No non-cultural **BUILDING**..."
Holy troops being built out of every city is most meet and right,
and there is no law against such. No one needs die today...

Of course, wishing to pursue more culture instead of troops is a more enlightened view, full of faith and trust in above rather than on the power of your might, so this too is good.

While he is down in Mecca, he notes with raised eyebrow a statue.

"Charislatinum, what is that?"

"What Abu? Oh that? It's a statue of ancestral primates alongwide with modern sapiens. You know... ToE"

"Theory of... ?"

"Evolution, of course, Abu!" said Charislatinum.

:saiyan:

The Holy Abu popped a blood vessel leading to his brain. He's at intensive care at the Mecca hospital. Err... no wait, there is yet no hospital at Mecca??? We need a hospital and soon!!

Once again a power vacuum fills the state house in Mecca, who will step up and lead the crusade? Will it be a great general? Will it be a savvy trader? A great doctor? Modernist? A teacher of the law? The fate of Arabia hangs in the balance!

Nurses' aide to Abu Charis

[ ToE is not against the rules at all, but somewhere along the line someone commented it would be quite funny if we ended up getting the ToE. Abu is mortified, while Latinum thinks that there are profits to be had by brokering the techs gained. Don't be surprised if after the crusade the nation experiences a time of repentence :lol: Excellent job, Architect ]

Sirian

Jan 27, 2003, 06:47 PM

NEWS... There is great hunger from the populace about news from the front. Why are we not hearing how goes the war? What about economic reports? Abu alFerengi seeks information on the latest indicators! How can he line his... erm, uh, how can he meditate on the proper course of financial... uh, of the holy path of our civilization, without any NEWS?

- Sirian

JMB

Jan 28, 2003, 12:14 AM

Due to lack of time, this report will not be written in character...

Wow, the game certainly has changed in the past 200 years...

0 - Spain and India already have AT, so it is time to broker... AT to Scandanavia for Refining and 64 gpt. AT to China for Steel, 503, and spices. Refining to the Celts for their wm, 30 gold and 23 gpt. As Hoover will complete in two turns, I sell Electronics to India for an Alliance versus Egypt, Combustion (@ 3rd) and 2848 gold. We are now at tech parity with India. Combustion to Scandanavia for 236 gold and 133 gpt. We currently have 4092 gold in the bank and are making 429 gpt. Instead of waiting 40 turns for Radio (probably the smartest thing to do...) I decide to begin researching. Radio in 18 turns (+38 gpt). The Indians begin Hoover.

1 - Nothing much. We don't yet attempt to take Xochicalco. The Chinese want an alliance versus the Babylonians and a rop. We decline. We complete Hoover, begin hospital. An egyptian cavalryman takes out our conscript rifleman. Another tries to dislodge our cavalryman outside Xoch, but dies.

2 - Their cavalryman defeats our veteran, but we finally take it out with another cavalryman. Scandanavia and India sign a peace treaty.

3 - Not really sure what happened... I guess nothing important... :)

4 - Because the egyptians have Sun Tzu, it is really hard to get their infantrymen in Xoch down to 1 hp. I might try to take them down next turn... Babylon and Persia sign a peace treaty. The egyptians want an audience. Disease strikes Hareid.

5 - Not much.

6 - We take Xoch.

7 - Not much. Persia and Scandanavia sign a peace treaty. The Iroquois destroy the Babylonians.

8 - We take Tlat and 3 workers. Electronics to China for wm and 103 gpt.

9 - 1 infantryman forces two of our cavalry to retreat, but the third defeats him. The next cavalryman takes Tlax. Spain and Persia sign a peace treaty. Renegotiate coal deal with Spain (we gain 15 gpt). Reneg dyes deal with India for an additional 11 gpt.

10 - Japan terminates our Ivory deal. I'll leave it to ther next leader to decide whether or not to renew it (after all, it looks like we could poach some of their lands...). We also just got some silks online outside Tlax, so we shouldn't be having any unhappiness problems...

There are two settlers outside of Ergili (under the cav/artillery stack). Feel free to use them to poach some of the lands to our W (they have yet to move and there is quite a bit of good land...).

I had forgotten to sell our coal plants, but think I have gotten every one of them now (I can't believe that they are only worth 20 gold...).

The two ironclads are being sent to Shiraz to be upgraded (if they can be. I guess I should have checked...). The transport outside of Fes is being sent to Profits isle to ferry troops/workers if so desired.

The next leader might want to consider rushing the temples in our newly gained cities (but I don't think this is in the spirit of the Holy writ...)

Techwise, only the Celts and Scandinavians have anything to offer ('latinum... Nobody has any techs which might indicate that the Indians are also researching Radio...). I'll leave it up to the next leader to decide what he/she wants to do.

I didn't spend much time MMing things this round (wanting to get the game moving again and not having too much time...), so if the next leader is so inclined, I am sure there are several things that can be fixed.

Here is the file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3Arabs1450AD.zip

May Allah be with our next leader!

JMB

Sirian

Jan 29, 2003, 12:10 AM

After years of calling 1-800-P-R-O-F-I-T-S in attempting to reach alFerengi for consultation, it seems that somebody finally paid a large enough bribe to be given the actual phone number of the Abu, instead of his call screening office.

"What's that? No, I didn't say bribe, you idiot. Clean that wax out of your ears, already, why don't you."

"Now, let's see here. Yes yes, red ink. Arms deals. Loot and Pillage. Erm... transaction fees. Yes. Mmm hmm. Ah."

Got it.

- Sirian

Sirian

Jan 29, 2003, 04:02 AM

"WHAT? We're paying 109gpt to the Vikings for peace? Lobes of a Rigellian Dormouse, I tell you. DOR. MOUSE."

IT: Swap eligible towns without a factory over to factory. That will take a while, but backed by Hoover, when done it means double shields. That's got to be good, right?

Early: Gather our cavs and artillery, drag along settlers and a couple of infantry guards, advance on Egypt. Swap Mecca to BatMed.

Middle: Capture two more Egyptian cities (one former Bab) and all the dyes. Lost a couple cav in the attack, but them's the breaks.

Weariness reached oppressive levels, beyond our ability to sustain.

"What? Protesters? Infidel freeloaders is more like it. UNbelievers. What does that say right there? In the ancient texts? 'Holy Crusade!' So am I to understand that these fools are protesting the Holy Crusade? Infidels. Too much secularism in Arabia today. No more elections, no more referendums. I am declaring Martial Law!"

Govt changed to Monarchy. Temples all across Azteca have been mysteriously completed. There might have been an inquiry into the books, but then Abu alFerengi took charge and personally audited them and reported finding no irregularities. Some Imams have declared the mysterious temple completions an act of Allah.

There are rumors that alFerengi has been spending huge amounts of the treasury on developing a network of spies and personal contacts. These reports are clearly false, as his reign ends with the treasury twice as full as when he came to power, and surely not even the Profit Himself can generate that much cash while also acquiring new technologies from the Spanish and Indians. Surely.

alFerengi has overseen the construction of a great trading center, called "Ferengenar Council of Investment", located on Wall Street in Medina, that is generating massive dividends and profit-sharing for all the wealthiest... erm, most holy uh... the most pious tithers in Arabia.

The Abu is rumored to own a controlling interest in all the new factories going up in the smaller cities along the coast. There was one reporter investigating these allegations, but he seems to have disappeared. We presume he found nothing, and in his shame at doubting the Abu, has cast himself into the sea, perhaps wearing new fashion footwear made of state of the art material called "concrete".

Construction of our nation's first airport continues at Medina. Our armed forces have been bolstered, with sound defensive garrisons in all relevant locations. Artillery batteries now patrol the mainland, should any enemy vessels attempt to land. Most notable is increased military garrison on Profits Isle. (The Abu grew weary of endless federal promises to send troops, and took the matter into his own hands).

All of our soldiers have been outfitted with new equipment. Where the Abu got the money to pay for this, remains unclear.

Some alliances expired, some new ones were forged. Some trade deals here and there have been initatied, renewed, or renegotiated.

Construction of commercial docks is underway in some cities. The Abu said something about "lobes" and "huge profits", but would not answer any reporters' questions. The reporters did not push too hard for answers, either, apparently uninterested in trying on new fashion footwear.

Abu alFerengi has retired, excercising Golden Parachute options worth, reportedly, billions. We understand that most reporters consider these reports "refuted" and that nobody is investigating. Surely that means industry watchdogs have it all under control.

You have been listening to Radio alJazeera, on the Holy Man in the Desert's broadcast network. Stay tuned for The Rest of the Story.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-aljazeera.jpg

RBP3 - 1500AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-1500ad.zip)

- Sirian

Charis

Jan 29, 2003, 08:25 AM

Charislatinum turns the dial on a mysterious new device he has never seen - one emiiting sounds in the perfect holy dialect...

Radio alJazeera, on the Holy Man in the Desert

:worshp: (Radio??! Think of the profits from advertising!!!!!)

Abu Charis enters the room, only to see Charislatinum drooling on the floor bowing. The young Imam gets a :whipping: but explains he was merely facing Mecca and giving thanks, nothing more.

When he presses the man for the reason for giving thanks, he learns that the great and holy desert site which was to have been settled on our mainland was the birthplace of the visionary who founded... Missionary Mosque!! This was foretold looooong ago by the prophets!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-HL310BC.jpg

Abu Charis weeps with joy at this wondrous event!! :cry:

The Abu asks Charislatinum, his trusted auditor, to check into rumors (surely false) of misdeeds on Prophets Island. Abu is outrageously upset about accusations against a man who is turning out to be a pillar of the faith and holy beyond all compare... Abu al Ferengi! When he confirms the righteousness of the holy Abu with the large lobes, there shall be a new law against slander regarding the lobed one - :whipping:
Latinum says "Sure thing, I'll take a flight right over!"

Construction of our nation's first airport continues at Medina
:eek:

We're still in the first crusade and we have airports, airplanes, flights to Prophets Isle and the "Voice of Arabia" transmitting??? Abu Charis nearly has a coronary, and wonders what odd manner of time warp progresses while he is up on the mountain. "I thought we were fighting this crusade with Ansars?? This is glorious news!!" (Charislatinum mutters something like 'well if you got your h&ly aR$e off the mountain more often...' but thankfully he is not heard!!)

It is truly said that our most recent leader has stood on the shoulders of giants, Abu's and Imams - JMB, Architect, Skyfish, Cartouche Bee, Marshall, Griselda, and the Rod of Heat! The Merciful has carefully placed each one in a chain leading to this roller coaster rush through the Industrial era, each one with a mission which was carried out with excellence!

Let us now press on and win this crusade, to share the faith of our people with others! :love2:

A day of celebration is ordered across the land... :band:
Abu Charis

JMB

Jan 29, 2003, 11:05 AM

alFerengi,

It looks like the 109 gpt to the Vikings deal was initiated by Architect for a couple of techs or something else (checking the file I started with, there were 10 turns left on the deal...). When I read your comment I was worried that somehow I had done that (misclick) or that I had missed it when picking up the game and being out over 1000 latinum because of my lack of attention...

Has the "Voice of Arabia" inspired Abu Charis to take the helm yet?

JMB

Cartouche Bee

Jan 30, 2003, 10:59 AM

Well, I normally wait for days to pick up but Allah had a word with me last night so 'I got it'. ;)

Anyway, Allah was a bit concerned with how long the second crusade was taking. I questioned the reference to the second crusade and was appropriately debriefed. The first crusade was against the Aztecs, just cause we did not have to raise a finger to accomplish the feat was actually a major point of the debriefing. However, due to our ignorance, the crusade against the Egyptian should proceed but with more deliberate actions towards ending the this training crusade and get on with the primary goal, of administering the faith globally.

Cartouche Bee

Jan 31, 2003, 09:22 AM

Sign on India for 20 more turns of peace and Alliance against Egypt. [If we can eliminate Egypt quicker than 20 turns, to bad for us.]
Japan firms up peace also.
Spain comes on board and declares war on Egypt.
Persia joins alliance.

A number of factories are cash rushed to the production boost going.

The city of Sana'a is founded to begin the siege on Avaris.
Able to take first shots with artillery at Egypt and reduce the population by 3.

Cash rush 2 settlers on mainland to aid in securing territories as required for the advance.
Cash rushing cultural buildings will be avoided to continue representing the labor of faith.

1 - 1505
Iroquois sign peace with Egypt. :mad:
We establish radar on the Egyptian front lines.
We continue to bombard Avaris. City is down to size 7 and best defender only has two hit points left. Rather than strike a size 7 city on a hill I decide to hold back for another round of bombardment.
2 - 1510
We continue to bombard Avaris.
Shihr and Bayt Ras are founded to provide a more secure link to the Egyptian front.
3 - 1515
We continue to bombard Avaris.
Pretty quite, first bomber arrives over on the mainland at Athribis airfield.
4 - 1520
We continue to bombard Avaris.
5 - 1525
We continue to bombard Avaris. We have to take it this turn else Japan will pick up the slack and do it for us. The deed is done.
6 - 1530
Egypt is down to 9 cities, 2 are already size 1 form other civs bombardments. We keep pressing units up to the front.
7 - 1535
'New Mecca' is founded ! El-Armna falls easily.
8 - 1540
The Japanese lose about 8 units attacking Pi-Ramesses. We join the seige and blast away.
9 - 1545
The Japanese lose about 7 more units and raze Pi-Ramesses. Our sights turn to Elephantine.
10 - 1550
India has Amphibious Warfare. They only want 6900 for it, I have the cash, I think not, I doubt our war will require marines for now. ;) I've not sold any techs to the other civs cause I'm in no rush to speed the tech tree along at this time. Iroquois join Celts in alliance against Egypt. :lol: Spain gives us 61 GPT for coal, we really only have to take out India after Egypt to win because the world has sunk to global communism. India offers 42 GPT for dyes and I think it will take us that long to mount a real sustained attack against them so I take it.

I ask Spain to remove their forces from our territory, just to keep them honest.

New Medina founded to base up against Elephantine. Our allies are all around and feeding off Egypt's plight. Elephantine falls at the expense of one of our elite cavs, can't get Great Leaders without trying.

Our military is about half what India has, we need to take out 50% of their cities or more to allow our culture to overtake theirs by a 2 to 1 margin. We currently hold a 1 3/4 to 1 1/8 margin (tape measure to screen method). I'd estimate their culture at about 37000 to our 57800.

I've left alot of cities building military units, Medina is building bombers, not one of my weapons of choice but until we can build tanks it has to be something. Egypt is down to 6 cities.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_1550_AD.SAV

Sirian

Jan 31, 2003, 02:21 PM

General C Bee, glorious Holy Crusader! Welcome news of successes from the front! Soon the evil witch from Thebes will be removed from power, making the world safe for Islam.

(Abu alFerengi acknowledges receipt of kickbacks from the factory contracts. Always a pleasure doing business with you!)

"What? What secret communique? Kickbacks? Don't be absurd, man. If you believe every piece of propaganda planted by Egytian spies, you'd be bringing our nation's holiest men up on charges every other day, while EvilPatra continues to deceive the faithful."

- Sirian

Cartouche Bee

Jan 31, 2003, 02:53 PM

Must have missed the 'kick backs' while watching for the 'kick butts'. All I know was that the military contracts were coming in on time for a change and it was directly related to the new factories. :hammer:

Sorry about kitty cornering those cities over to Elephantine, it wasn't necessary but I was trying to meet my temple starting quota. :o

Skyfish

Feb 03, 2003, 03:59 AM

The Nation of Islam looks "real good" and Ben Skyfish is happy to "got it" and follow the giant footsteps of General C.Bee !

Skyfish

Feb 04, 2003, 07:24 AM

As Ben Skyfish the Ignorant arrives in Mecca to head the Kingdom of Charis Arabia to the next stage of our Holy Crusade, two nagging questions prevent him from sleeping.
He convenes his council of Imams and as usual begins without any introduction :
"Ok about this (w)holy crusade stuff that we can't stop 'til we get a wonder or whatever: what happens if our allies, and nonetheless future ennemies the elephant-loving Indians or the damned Japs, capture or RAZE Thebes ?
What should then happen with our crusade, oh Great Imams ?

Secondly, in the overly optimistic option that we actually can capture Thebes : will the Crusade end immediately meaning all build orders will have to be changed back IMMEDIATELY to cultural buildings or will the Council of the Chariah allow those military units currently in prod to be finished ?

What is your answers oh great Imams ?:confused: :confused:

Charis

Feb 04, 2003, 07:53 AM

The holy writings specify that we must proceed with our Holy Crusade until we capture a capital or wonder. If Thebes is razed the capital will be moved. Our target city would shift, but not our overall objective. If an opposing civ should see fit to raze a Great Wonder of the world... should their fate be any less brutal than the fate of the Egyptians who razed the Aztecs capital and wonder(s) ?! :hammer:

The prohibition against building military outside Medina was pre-Crusade / pre-Ansar. With the increasing number of enemies, it was foreseen that we would not necessarily further war. Remember to make producing culture a **high** priority, but do what needs to be done for the good of the nation and to spread the faith! :goodjob:

Abu Charis

Sirian

Feb 04, 2003, 09:46 AM

Grand Nagus Abu alFerengi, the Most Holy Profit, notes that if we meet our obligations to the ancient writings, that we can research ahead into glorious Profit Counters, called computers, which will, erm, allow us to keep better track of the tithes. They will also allow us access to yet more cultural buildings to be building, after which a fat load of commercial docks to better fund our research labs may be in order. WE NEED COMMERCIAL DOCKS TO BRING IN THE TOURISTS! Uh... Erm, I said pilgrims. The pilgrims coming to Mecca, with their fat wallets and ah... erm... in search of communion with the Most Holy Profit.

Soon our advertising... erm, I said culture. CULTURE! Have your ears examined, I think they may have a large wax blockage. Soon our culture will have 100% brand name recognition... What? No, no, that's Profits Isle nomenclature for... oh, never mind. Look it up for yourself in the Holy Ledgers. What? You infidel! Now what was I saying? Oh, yes. Soon our, ah, culture will be so strong, that our market share will... huh? That's only an analogy, my boy, don't read too much into a few words. Soon our sales force... erm, I said missionaries. Soon our missionaries will have penetrated the market so successfully, that we'll have controlling interest in all the worldwide governments and can form a true monopoly by absorbing all these other corporations. Erm, no, I uh... You're confusing two things I said into one idea, lad. I'm talking about our Holy Message, straight from on high, handed down by THE Profit. All of the other, ah... churches where, um, the Profit is worshipped... will simply turn into branch offices.

Oh never mind. Your lobes are too small for this sort of business strategizing. Just be true to the Holy Profit and do as you're told, and the Holy Word will finally spread to every corner of the earth, and all nations will come to see the wisdom of The Profit.

- Sirian

Skyfish

Feb 04, 2003, 03:46 PM

Something very strange happened in the game tonight, I have no time to give detailed report now but I will post tomorrow (wednesday) my turn report.

Our advance in Egypt was quite successful, our allies Japan, Iros and Indians were also making great progress, too much actually and we CAPTURED THEBES :D (with Leo and Pyramids) JUST before the Indians (it was sooo close), we did not pause and rushed for Alexandria a few tiles away with Sun Tzu's Great Wonder in it (I thought AlFerenghi would have liked to have it ;) ).
The final showdown comes at the door of Alexandria but Indians and Japs have one turn advance on us. It is Egypt's last city. The Indians throw everything they have at them but fail, next come the Japanese and with just 2 conscript riflemen left in the battered city, they win and DESTROY the Egyptians :goodjob:

Well turns out no :( it's all wrong, when it gets to our turn : the Indians and Spanish are at war with us :eek: :mad: :cry:
There was no advisor screen saying they declared war, nothing. :confused:
I went back to the previous move (I had saved just before hitting spacebar/enter) and look at Diplo, we have an Alliance (and ROP) with both to destroy the Egyptians but nothing else really. I just can not find what caused this. It's very late and I am tired so I need the Imams help with this.
What happened ?
Once again, and in a very short span of time, Ben Skyfish the Ignorant needs the Great Imams help.

Here is the save on the turn just before Egypt is destroyed and the world turns on us (just press spacebar) :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_1585_AD.zip

Cartouche Bee

Feb 04, 2003, 04:36 PM

You are getting blamed for breaking the Alliance. Since they had nothing to do with breaking the alliance they have pinned the blame on you. [Program bug actually]. Just saves us having to declare war. I think we should treat it as a misunderstanding and allow Spain peace ASAP. But get as may as possible on board against India and take it to them. They have most likely caused this misunderstanding and should be punished appropriately.

You're only 5 turns into your set! What took you so long. ;) :worshp:

Sirian

Feb 04, 2003, 06:05 PM

Actually... it wouldn't have mattered who finished off Egypt.

Sign on India for 20 more turns of peace and Alliance against Egypt. - [i]Cartouche Bee

:smoke:

There was no need, or use, for combining these two deals. The peace could have been renegotiated separately. Instead, by combining a forced peace renegotiation with an alliance, if the alliance ends suddenly for any reason, the whole deal is cancelled, including the peace treaty! That automatically puts us in a state of war.

We're at war with these civs (with the stain on us) because Cartouche set it up that way.

For the pennies involved, the peace deals should have been skipped. Just like squeezing money out of RoP agreements, at a certain point the risks exceed the rewards and it's not worth having your reputation held hostage for 20 turns just to bring in another 20g, when your income is 300gpt or more. Back when we were racing for Sistine and needed every coin we could scrape up, all those aggressive peace renegotiations got us over the hump and brought huge rewards. Now the rewards are negligible.

We're at war of our own making.

Since we would have needed to declare vs India soon anyway, it's not all bad. Might have been nice to have a chance to shore up our position first, though. Also, no telling how Abu Charis may react to these developments. We, uh, could end up in an all new crusade here. :) Better hope the Abu is unavailable in prayer :worshp: and that Charislatinum is the one to answer the phone! :lol:

- Sirian

Charis

Feb 04, 2003, 06:25 PM

:lol:

"Mecca 911 dispatch, how may I place your call?"

"An emergency, we're in a (multiple) state of war? One moment please, let me see who is available to take your call..."

What fun things you get to experience and learn in a succession game. I was wondering how we got into war, and without looking at the game it didn't occur to me that we would have a breakable deal tied in to peace.

While I think Sirian's assessment of the utility of mixing the two deals together is correct, I like CB's assessment of the state of affairs...

> I think we should treat it as a misunderstanding and allow
> Spain peace ASAP. But get as may as possible on board against
> India and take it to them. They have most likely caused this
> misunderstanding and should be punished appropriately.

I'll say "got it", but better take my Infantry2 turn first. Then I can ponder who it shall be who will answer the phone!

Charisecretary at the Mecca 911 Dispatch

Cartouche Bee

Feb 04, 2003, 07:05 PM

OK, I'll 100% accept that it was weed tying those two deals together. It's a bad habit grouping deals together but was not made to force us into this situation. I played to learn some new wizardry and this is not the first new trick I picked up this game. :o

Skyfish

Feb 05, 2003, 02:11 AM

Ben Skyfish is happy with the answers of General CB and Nagi Sirian but he was willing to prolongate his rule of Arabia for 25 more years.
Abu Charis seems to be very mad and angry at his disciple and pushes him off the throne and takes power :(

Putting the save file was just to allow Imams to assess the situation, not to hand over but hey I should have been clearer about this.

Well the situation is not that good as we outstreched ourselves to get Thebes and Spain has TANKS (monopoly) ! So we better be watch out believers. If they ally vs us and give india tanks we can say goodbye to Thebes (and Leos' and Pyramids...:cry: ).

There were loads of projects I had started and wanted to see to completion but it really dont' matter...serious.
I used the great pile of cash CB left me to build more than 20 temples and libraries, 6 universites, 5 cathedrals in our newfound land :D .
I also started 10 commercial docks (that will be ready in about 5 turns) to... get Latinum....hum spread the faith I mean Oh great Nagi AlFerengi :)

Skyfish

Feb 05, 2003, 06:15 AM

Jus wanted to add that I woke up yesterday in the middle of the night :eek: (well actually a lil' one year old had more to do with it than Abu Charis) and it suddenly dawned on me : Bang ! The General's peace/alliance deal ! (I love getting those flashes)
Jumped to the computer but there were already responses to help the stupid Ben Skyfish awake from his stupor...:(
As said I was quite tired because at the start of my reign (yes I took a loooong time CB;) ) I checked if we could manage to avoid Egypt's destruction before our deal came off, was confident I could do it, but Egypt's demise was pretty fast as they had 3 AIs vs them with literally hundreds of infantries trampling their dirty soil.
Then it was a sprint towards Thebes to secure the END OF OUR HOLY CRUSADE !..and because we secured Thebes the AIs got one turn advance on me to take Alexandria...:mad:
Was also happy the Japs get Suntzu and not India. We should get them on our side to go and destroy the Indians.
Anyway it was a great set of turns and I had loads of fun.
I must say it's thanks to the great offensive by CB who presented me Thebes on a silver platter.:goodjob:

Beware AbuCharis (we don't need CharisLatinum today !), we are weak in Egypt and ...all my commercial docks will probably need to get vetoed to airlift tons of infs and cavs. :cry: :cry:

Charis

Feb 05, 2003, 07:40 AM

If you're not done, by all means finish up :p
Consdier getting any and every alliance vs India. With their culture they can stand a full 20 turns of beating. Tougher call on Spain, you might not want to lock yourself into 20 turns, or you may need someone else to draw the fire of the tanks.

(And if a civ who just declared war on us has a monopoly on tanks... I would take a second look at those docks :P )

"When you sleep, SLEEP! When you play, Play!" :hammer:
Charis

Cartouche Bee

Feb 05, 2003, 09:20 AM

Skyfish, I looked at the game, I think we can recover the situation, and we did win the crusade. [I was a bit surprised at at quickly Egypt crumpled, but that is not excuse.]

From my point of view, perhaps a simplified view, I would be fairly kind to Spain, just take those two cities that are close to us away if possible (taking their ports away) and then grant them peace (they should talk in 5 turns or so, I'd hope). Don't take any 20 year terms against Spain.

Get Japan, a real power house to in an Alliance against India, the cost is steep but that's war. The Iroquois will pony up a MPP which they already have with India. Go defense, let India trigger the MPP and pit the Iriquois at India also.

Drop all the naval production in favor of land based units cause that is where the action is going to be. I'd stick pretty close to military production at least until Spain sees the light.

Skyfish

Feb 06, 2003, 07:34 AM

Thanks Charis, those turns turned out to be quite uneventful but it was just for the principle of making my 10 turns ;)

1585 : just press enter.
ibt : we lose wines which we had just bought last turn from Spain, Celts want MPP but can't pay, no thx, China wants dyes and can can pay 29gpt, OK.
1590 : Japan agrees to MPP for Flight, India & Spain already have it, and they are quite behind in techs so I give it to them.
Iros accept MPP for 5gpt. I get defense units in Latinum trading outpost under threat from Spain.
ibt : rognor wants to beat up the chinese, no thx, we stay defense and MPPs trigger.
1595: I made Offensive stacks going towards Spanish cities near MMosque, I also landed a transport of Infs and artys, staying defensive in Thebes but bomb away a lot of Indians who then get finished by the Japs.
Spanish bomb our coal ressources near Missionary, Production sabotage in MMosque.

I just worked on logisitics for you Charis and kept all options open with deals, I set the slider at 90% towards Tanks (6 turns) as I do not know if we can get from a deal as only our ennemies have it. Please veto if weed.

We lack both offensive and defensive units and I concentrated on getting those Spanish cities on our continent in order to get them to agree to peace ASAP.

On the Indian front I just made sure we keep our wonder and line of logisitics to the front. The Japs are whipping the Indians for us so that's pretty nice.

So who's gonna pick up the call ? :confused:
Charislatinum or Abu Charis ? :confused:

suspense.... :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_1600_AD.zip

Charis

Feb 06, 2003, 08:07 AM

Good job finishing up your turn. Did you say...

Spanish bomb our coal ressources near Missionary Mosque, Production sabotage in the Holy city of the Mosque

:eek:

The Abu himself will answer the call, hearing this news. There were reports that he was carrying a "large can of..." something, which he intended to share with the Spanish!

A press release notes the following...

To the faithful scattered throughout Arabia. Investigation of wrongdoing against our
Imams has cleared the name of yet another great son of Arabia, Cartouche Bee.
Scrutiny of the matter places full blame for the incident with the infidel Isabella of Spain.
The warmongress ignored the *clear* intent of our verbal negotions by taking the
destruction of Egypt - not even by our hands mind you - as an invitation to spread lies
and ruin the reputation of Holy Arabia. Her evil actions continue unfettered, as she has
set her face against the holiest of cities, Missionary Mosque. The Faithful in this area are
urged to repel the evil daughter of a camel from our lands in former Aztec territory.
The people of Japan, known for their honor and Code of Bushido, have freely joined this
righteous cause, and in recognitiion of our friendship we have taught them how to fly.
They too recognize the threat by the grey infidels to the far North.

May we be guided by the merciful one in this dark hour...

The people are reminded about the penalty for false accusations against elders... :whipped:

Charislatinum knows that when the excrement impinges upon whirling blades, it's a good time to head over to Profits... er... Prophet's island to cook... I mean, check... the books over there!

:hammer:

Does Spain have any idea how close they are to a Jihad???

Charis

PS Our rep must be way down deep in the toilet. Not only did we break the peace deal when Egypt went down, but if we were buying wines at the time too, ouch. We must build a "new reputation"

Skyfish

Feb 06, 2003, 08:11 AM

Well they bombed it but only reduced it from RR to road, so there is no disconnection, sorry for the lack of precision...;)

Sirian

Feb 06, 2003, 08:14 AM

Attacking Missionary Mosque?!? :eek: :nono: :saiyan:

She Chose Unwisely (TM) :lol:

Sirian

Feb 06, 2003, 08:21 AM

The female dog Isabella is most fortunate that the merciful hand of Abu Charis rises against her. If alFerengi were taking a turn at the head of the Caliphate, he would drum up-- erm, that is to say, uncover! He would uncover evidence of her personal association with lice and other vermin, her unclean habit of licking salt from the bellies of slugs, and her direct blasphemous and god-hating treachery against the site of the Holy Martyrs. He would surely kick off an enormous jihad against her. Huh? No, of course it wouldn't have anything to do with sagging sales at his arms factories. What are you suggesting here?

- Sirian

Charis

Feb 09, 2003, 02:11 AM

Just a quick update, I'm 8 of 10 turns into my turn, and heading to sleep a few hours past when I should have :P
LOTS of carnage going on here :hammer:

(RL hasn't been too kind, Mrs C just broke her ankle on Thurs and it's been beyond hectic here. As if I didn't already know, I can confirm I would not trade jobs with a mom of 4 under 4 :eek: )

Charisleepy

Skyfish

Feb 09, 2003, 03:15 PM

Can you repeat that please ?
4 under 4 !
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Sheesh ! that's me thinkin I got it hard with 2 under 2 !
:(

I'll never complain again...

Sirian

Feb 11, 2003, 04:52 AM

Been a long two turns. :) I guess the situation with Mrs. C has given Charis higher priorities and more responsibility to manage. He was at "in-up-to-his-eyeballs" feasting BEFORE the injury crisis, so I imagine the avalanche snowed him so far under it will be the spring thaw before we find his body. :lol:

Well, OK, I hope it isn't that dramatic. :)

alFerengi tried to get some news back from the front, but even his personal network of spies... erm, that is to say, pious. PIOUS! (Dormouse-lobed infidel!) His network of pious clerics, not even they have been able to discern any news from the battlefields.

- Sirian

Skyfish

Feb 11, 2003, 05:03 AM

Please Abu C. just take your time handling RL !
We are all pious devotees and "patience is the mother of all virtues", those are Mohammed's own words (serious).
I can only tip my hat to Mrs C for handling 4 small babies/kids PLUS Mr C's annoying addiction to computer games !!

Charis

Feb 11, 2003, 07:59 AM

Nod, procrastination got me. The feast was a light one in the sense of I had exactly enough free time planned to do what needed to be done, then BOOM (literally, for her), just about three full days and nights went poof. On top of that was her birthday in there (So "no honey, I don't want to watch that movie with you tonight, I was hoping to slaughter some Indians" was NOT an option). Add to that a project at work I've been working on for months had a dog and pony show on Monday. So, more of a 'RL' feast.

> I can only tip my hat to Mrs C for handling 4 small babies/kids
> PLUS Mr C's annoying addiction to computer games !!

Me too, she's great!! Actually, we coined the phrase '4 under 4' about a year ago. The oldest is now 4, and turns 5 within the month. But we went from 0 to those 4 within a 9 month period which raised some eyebrows. They're needy but adorable kids -- I think Mrs C has a 'frequent flyer' card at her pediatrician's office.

I should hit those turns tonight :P I was going to upload after 5 turns but thought that was too lame, besides how much longer could 5 turns take, I thought. (The plate is lighter now that War Paint and qsc16, both going well and 2/3 finished, have slipped off the plate and made a mess on the floor) I should join procrastinator's anonymous. Maybe next week... :p

Charis

Charis

Feb 11, 2003, 08:51 PM

Charistatistician al Excel notes that with all the new cities and temples we have,
even if we build *no more* cultural buildings, we would be due to break 100K in
the year 1796, just 53 turns from now (fifth player AFTER Abu Charis). We are likely
looking at the culture histogram to have Spain and Celts beat, but not India, so
frankly speaking... we win we've shared the faith so well with India that they
are gone. This speaks towards a massive military push to end it. But he is but
a mere scribe... the Abu now comes down off the mountain.

Abu Charis is looking a whole lot more modern. He's sporting a suit, but with a
Fez hat, and is carrying a "big stick." He says the stick was broken off a building
destroyed in the Spanish assault on Missionary Mosque. He now likes to speak softly,
but carry this big stick. (It's quite a large stick, I might add). On his initial
survey of the situation, he sees that the people's attention to holy writ has been
flagging. Clearly they are spending too much time speaking in dark alleys and accusing
our pious leaders. Suhar is the ONLY Holy Land city lacking a basic cultural bldg, the
colosseum. It is rushed immediately. New Damascus and Thebes have violated the temple
rule, and the people are whipped. :eek:

Then, worse news... "Abu, the people have stopped paying tithes!!"

:saiyan:

Abu is flabbergasted that such a thing could happen!!! Someone must have disobeyed
a direct order from our nations holy treasurers and auditors!! Charislatinum incriminates,
er... investitages, and pins it on... er... finds the culprit, and has him
beaten severely :whipped: The Abu prophecizes, "The people are too much in love of money
in these modern times, and in this reign we will fix that problem, draining our treasury
to nothing, so that we may rely on the merciful one and not mammon!!"
(Charislatinum's response? :vomit: ) Disease would soon strike at Latinum Trading
Outlet, almost as an omen.

We also decide that the Celts should be fighting Spain, and not get pulled in
as an ally for evil Isabella. They'll do so for Electronics. Speaking of Tech,
Isabella the proud made far too much use of her tongue in espousing her superiority
with the knowledge of Tanks. Charislatinum, en route to Profits... Prophets Isle,
plies a Spaniard with wine, er... whines about Spanish pliers... and learns such
knowledge at fully half-price at what it would take to research it ourselves. We're
now fully in the modern age, and we start Ecology, the one most likely to be neglected
by our foes. If Fission shows up, we'll want to obtain it quickly to avoid a UN disaster.

[0] 1600 - Several build orders are changed, for a more offensive military focus.
There seems to be a stack outside of Vitoria that hasn't attacked yet, so it's
bombarded. At Asturias we have some artillery, inf, and cav, and it is here where
we see the first 'big stick' broken out. An elite cavalry unit carries the big stick,
personally exhorted into battle by the mighty Abu, and his words of faith lead to...

A Great Leader! Uthman, also known as "Abu Charis' Whipped One"!

(IBT) Persia and Celts come to peace. We renew Spice purchase from Celts.
A Spanish destroyer tries to shoot one of our roads, bringing the wrath (ok the MPP)
of Brennus down upon the head of Isabellum. When India does similarly, they are
at war with the Celts too.

The Iro, surrounding Asturias, easily capture the Spanish city.

[1] 1605 - Missionary Mosque fittingly creates our first Tank. Mecca and a few others
join the rally and airlift several over immediately. After Vitoria is pounded by
artillery, our valiant tanks ride in. The MM tank wins and promotes, then two
are short of faith and shamefully fail. The Abu exhorts the next one, and it wins,
destroying three bombers caught in port. The city is now ours (Rax, Granary, Harbor)

By Buto in India we bomber destroy a Radio Tower (RT) guarded by an infantry on a hill.

Uthman reaches Missionary Mosque, and in commemoration, builds an Army!

(IBT) One of our airport strips JUST fends off an Indian tank.
The Japanese SEEM to be pulling out of India? No, they're still at war.

[2] 1610 - Spain is out of Arabaztecia, essentially gone from our continent. While
We won't press the war with her any more, our MPP's and her vile actions will
prevent any peace from occuring anytime soon. Plus no more culture building for
her would be a good thing. Our main focus is now on India. Our army has it's first
win, and to our dismay, it is seen that the zeal and sleeplessness of Uthman has
but one reg tank inside. It should promote, but that's just plain weed...

MM starts the Heroic Epic, and Medina starts the Military Academy,
both highly appropriate!

(IBT) A good sized stack from Spain landed next to Sardis, 8 mixed inf and cav.
China declares war on evil Isabella (could Mao have been inspired by Abu?!)

[3] 1615 - Much fighting. We slaughter Spain's landing force, and on the Indian front
take Eridu.

(IBT) The Indian counter? Just one tank attack at Eridu. They're nearly gassed.
Japan otoh, oh my, two dozen attacks on the Indians. Unfortunately, mostly cav and
inf vs inf.

[4] 1620 - The road to the front line in India is somewhat sparse, so some settlers
are ordered up. Giza is captured from the Indians, aqueduct intact. New Karachi is
autorazed. Busiris is captured although it eats one of our elite tanks.

(IBT) The Rampaging Chinese have destroyed the Vikings. The Indians mount NO
counterattack other than some bombardment. Shurrupuk of Japan flips to us, yearning
to live as people of faith!! :hammer:

[5] 1625 - New Baghdad and New Najran are founded. Hieraconpolis is captured (it seems
the Indians have an appetite for elite tanks. Fortunately, they're not hard to get)

(IBT) Spain and India ally vs Persia, as evil Isabella shows her true colors.
We're told we should build the Iron Works??? Where? New Baghdad? Ah... Too bad
it's a fully corrupt town.

[6] 1630 - Buto is captured from India. (IBT) Zilch... except...

Spain lands a transport of troops on Arabian Holy Land!!!

That's it... the Imams convene at Mecca and Abu Charis declares there shall be
no PEACE with Spain for 40 years! Until Isabella has felt the full wrath of the
Arabian people and grovels before the very feet of our prophets, acknowledging
the error of her ways, and her deceitful villainy!! :hammer:

[7] 1635 - Alexandria is captured, and with it, Sun Tzu! This is a great boon
all across our 'expansion lands', for the continent is quite large!
Not far away we found a new frontline city on some Ruins, called "Spread the Word"

One kill short of seeing no Arab blood spilt on Holy Land, we wipe out the Spanish
infidels but lose one Crusader in the battle.

(IBT) A lot of action. The Indians take a potshot at Buto and kill one defender,
and they land a pair of units off Ergili in our backline. The Iroquois have sent
considerable units into the war, but their cav are mowed down by Indian tanks.
In Medina we finish our glorious Military Academy.

[8] 1640 - The Indian landing party is knocked out. Lisht is bombarded then captured.
Samarra is captured, again losing an elite tank (vs a 2hp inf)

(IBT) Spain and Iro come to peace. Then, lol, "Spain declares war on the Iroquois!"

[9] 1645 - Mendes is converted from a size 7 Radio tower protected Indian city to a
size 3 town of Arabia, through artillery barrages and tank attacks.

(IBT) India and China come to peace. The Iroquois and Japanese are more hindrance
then help now vs China. They send token efforts to the front, *but* clog the railways
and cut off some of our lines. 8-| Almost no India movement at ALL (gassssss)

[10] 1650 - Abydos is redlined and captured. (Tnx mostly to all the bombers in
'Share the Faith') Just behind Abydos was a lone India infantry. Our elite tank
is hungry and goes fishing... Success!

Mu'awiya!! A great and holy leader for our nation! :hammer:
He awaits a command from our next leader.

Ganges is so close to Abydos we press the attack, and it just takes two tanks
to capture the city. The good news - we're now 'in sight' of 'real' cities!
Calcutta and Dacca are next in line, and Delhi is now just one row behind that!
Razing their core cities will do what we need done for cutting their culture.

Right in our expansion land, near MM, there is a Spanish city of Asturias??!
Have I been too asleep to see it, has the Spanish green been too close to the
Celtic Green?? Or did they get it as a peace concession? In any case, it just
has one reg inf defender, so three cav capture the city (one lost). The natives
are Iroquois however.

The reign of Abu Charis now ends. India has been knocked down from 29 or 30
cities to just 19. Spain has been tossed off our continent and relegated to
global insignificance, and her treachery has been exposed.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-UpdatedMap-1650AD.jpg

- I've been pushing extremely aggressively in India, but we're *way* short on garrison
units. I don't think there's any front line city with more than a single defender,
and on back row that might not even be infantry. We might do some 'light' drafting
out of cities size 8 to 12 to help out somewhat.
- You can trade Radio for Amphib war to Celts if you wish (China just now got Radio)
- Heroic Epic due in Missionary Mosque next turn :P
- If when our MPP run out anyone makes peace with Spain, you probably want to
take Ningpo as a concession, as it's one of three cities on their South island
- Several mainland cities were working on airports, as these are done and they start
cranking out infantry and tanks we'll be much better off for units for the front.
- Fustat is working on a transport due the same turn the Army from Medina is due
* The treasury has been reduced to zero gold to squelch the people's dependency on
material goods, in punishment for lack of tithing. At +288gpt income, we can build
back up to 1K quickly.
* Choose a task for Mu'awiya. Rush Iron Works for something symbolic but worthless,
or make an Army to fill with tanks. I don't think there's a wonder coming up
any time soon. (There are two settlers in Share-the-Faith as well)
* We will reach 100K Culture in 43 turns or less! But India has about 60% of our culture,
so basically we shall be victorious when India is wiped out. Spain and Celts are at
about 40-45% and should not catch us in that time frame. We can stay in war with
Spain to keep her mind off culture for the next 40 years unless there's pressing
need to make peace (and she grovels sufficiently)
*** Press the attack vs India! If they get computers and Mech Inf, the game will drag on

Save File 1650 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-1650AD.zip)

Peace be upon you, people of Faith,
Abu Charis

Sirian

Feb 12, 2003, 07:05 AM

Before and After? What? "I'm not only the president of the company, I'm also a client"? :lol:

Am I to understand that "the treasury has been drained" as direct punishment for someone HALTING THE SACRED TITHE? All those corrupted funds stolen from the mosques! Sacrilege!

On the other hand, if we no longer have a treasury, that sounds like a nation crying out for leadership to generate Most Holy Profits! :D

Yeah... the Grand Nagus can turn the economy around.

(Got it).

- Sirian

Charis

Feb 12, 2003, 07:14 AM

What happened to the treasury of Arabia is unclear. The Abu sees the disappearance of our mammon as divine punishment for the neglect of proper tithes, and trusts that the prayers and concern of the Grand Nagus, along with repentence, can turn around the ugly situation. Charislatinum, who seen driving a Rolls Royc... er, a Roller derby used car, in Profits... Prophets' Isle, confirms he looked into the mysterious drain, and has verified that no misdeeds have occurred, and that as a mysterious blessing, the people were able to finish many temples and a few airports in record time, in payment... er, repentence for our actions.

Charislatinum :rolleyes:

(PS to whoever let the slider slip, no biggie, please don't about the Abu's reaction and response ;) )

(PPS @Sirian - I got half-way through Infantry last night before dozing off, and did take a skip on "another" game :P I'll finish up that one tonight)

Cartouche Bee

Feb 12, 2003, 12:21 PM

After seeing that 'after' picture, I was wondering if we need to widen the roads for all those tanks or are we still without rails to the front lines? ;) Such is the treadmill of war; forward, reconsolidate and forward again.

I have it on good authority that the Indians are a stubborn people and a little flippy when it comes to culture. :) Using artillery to persuade them out into the fields to live off the land usually helps keep them focused and the tithes rolling in. It's unfortunate that the 'Fission Trust Fund' had a meltdown but sacrifices in Crusades are inevitable. Once the Indians are fully converted, a return to democracy would fill the coffers with a renewed zeal. :) I suspect that that the 'Rolls' will be refurbished pronto, with a new model. :)

Skyfish

Feb 12, 2003, 02:08 PM

After a good :whipped: from Abu Charis, the pious devotees felt the need to investigate the "tithes" incident by recollecting the events that occured back in time.
The Great Coran was consulted and the following scriptures quoted :
...and kept all options open with deals, I set the slider at 90% towards Tanks (6 turns) as I do not know if we can get from a deal as only our ennemies have it. Please veto if weed.

It seems an unforeseen incident occured while the Big Wheel of Science was moved a few notches. The self designed 'automatic brake' in charge of stopping the Great Wheel must have malfunctionned as it was programmed to stop at 90% and thus keep the Tithes at 10%, like the scriptures confirm :confused: :confused: :confused:
The Chief Engineer was duly executed in front of the populace in order to teach a good lesson and prevent such mechanical accidents in the future.

Sirian

Feb 12, 2003, 05:17 PM

A picture's worth a thousand words:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-1700ad.jpg

Sirian

Feb 12, 2003, 05:26 PM

We shall be victorious when India is wiped out. - Charis

Does that mean we have sit parked on the doorstep of the last Indian city for the next 33 turns :eek: and only THEN are we allowed to attack? Because that's what it would take to make your holy vision come true. :lol: ;)

Actually, I made an error here, just as I did in LK38, by not keeping track of my settler supply and costing myself a whole turn for not having one on hand when I needed it. By rights, India should already be gone. Oh well, someone else can have the final glory.

All MPP's have expired. Peace reigns with Spain and China (China allied vs us at the start of my round).

Barring AI leaders taking drugs, we should have a peaceful end to our quest, in which we can spread the word far and wide.

So sayeth the Grand Nagus, Abu alFerengi the Peacemaker. ("We'll bring you peace, one way or the other.")

:hammer: :lol:

RBP3 - 1700AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp3-arabs-1700ad.zip)

- Sirian

PS: Oh by the way, those two ruins were the doings of the Japanese army, of course. Our Merciful Forces brought only liberation and enlightenment to the foes once we had overcome their resistance to the holy word.

Cartouche Bee

Feb 12, 2003, 05:44 PM

Looks like the "auto-pilot" tech has been discovered. All that and money in the bank.
:goodjob: :jump: :worshp:

Charis

Feb 12, 2003, 06:14 PM

That very phrase came to mind when I saw the map, then I saw your 'omgwhttz'

:rotfl:

Now *that* is sticking it to them!!

"Absolute and indisputable proof of the valor and holiness of the Grand Nagus -- let all who would accuse this great leader taste the sting of a whip on their tailbone!" says Abu Charis :hammer:

I knew they were gassed, and I opened up a path not far from Delhi, but that exceeds expectations, well done!

The comment on being victorious when India falls thought it might take more than one player turn to do so :P Whoever is up when the peace treaty expires should remove the grey blight from the map. Victory predicted in 33 turns or less, auto-pilot indeed! :lol:
It's too bad that to gain a 100K victory on Emperor it's virtually required to go wipe out another civ (unless map conditions are quite unusual) - we couldn't have pursued culture any harder than with our ruleset.

At this point, just watch out for an AI getting the UN!

:goodjob:
Charis

PS Thanks, al Skyfish, for uncovering the mystery and 'taking care of' the problem with the careless Chief Engineer!! No doubt he was bribed by the villainous Indians. That does explain why the sliders were at 9.0.0, not 10.0.0. :D

Sullla

Feb 12, 2003, 08:42 PM

OMGWHTTZ - I love it! :D

Let this be a lesson as to why no one should mess around with Charis and Sirian. India goes from leading world power to OCC status in just 20 turns. If domination was your goal, you could probably trigger that before winning 100K culture. :p

Cartouche Bee

Feb 13, 2003, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by Charis

It's too bad that to gain a 100K victory on Emperor it's virtually required to go wipe out another civ (unless map conditions are quite unusual) - we couldn't have pursued culture any harder than with our ruleset.

I think that if the no cash rushing of culture buildings would have been 'relaxed' earlier in the game that the Indians would not have had to been taken out to make this culture win work. Yet, if the no cash rushing of culture buildings would have held up to the end of the game the game might have lasted a bit longer but I doubt that any of the remaining civs had the real strength to make a space race much of a real concern either.

Great map Charis, don't think it could have been crafted much better to support the special rules, except for maybe the luxuries. ;)

Sirian

Feb 13, 2003, 11:58 AM

AFAIK, there never was a restriction on cash-rushing anything. It is not listed in the rules on the front page. I rushed a cathedral at MM early on or it never would have got going. The main reason I didn't rush more is we were always broke! We barely got to Sistine and then we were heavy on maintenance and never had the dough back when it most mattered.

If we had been allowed to rush some key courthouses, we could have sped up our culture at some sites. AFAIK, Charis's intent here was NOT focused on fastest possible culture, since the variant rules stood in the way of that in many instances. :p

- Sirian

Cartouche Bee

Feb 13, 2003, 12:08 PM

I guess the first page never got updated so I was playing under the rules on page 2.:o

* The Forbidden Palace and Culture
- It's expected to have a very large number of cities, each with all the cultural
buildings they can make, but without spending CASH to rush them. This means they
will need food, and lots of it, both for the purpose of a govt swap-pop rush,
and to take as many workers off the field to be taxmen, to pay for these buildings.

I agree, we were never too flush with cash anyway, it was a fun run!

Cartouche Bee

Feb 13, 2003, 12:16 PM

I can't even follow the correct rules. :lol:

I liked the original ones better. :)

Charis

Feb 13, 2003, 01:37 PM

Yada yada yada... :p

Sorry about the confusion on this one, mea culpa. Cash rushing was allowed, just 'discouraged'. It was crucial for MM as Sirian suggested, and yes, we never were exactly flush on cash. :lol:

The other SG going for emperor 100K was TH2 by T-hawk. They had no variant restrictions iirc, but had to get to over *200K* culture before they doubled another civ, and they had swarms of cities trying to 'pull ahead'. It took many many turns past the 100k mark to finish it. If they had been as warmongerish as the Grand Nagus, it could have been just 20 turns :P

Oh, btw, thanks for the 'nice map' comment, but that was pure rng. I really didn't envision us on a continent of our own, as it made moot the whole farmer's gambit idea, but we had enough land (and Prophet's Isle, woo!) for the map to work out extremely well. It was also interesting to see a FP hand-built *so* early.

Let's wrap this up -- our players here should jump in there and grab it one last time.

Thanks,
Charis

Cartouche Bee

Feb 13, 2003, 01:42 PM

I'll commit to grabbing one of the last rounds but not this one cause I've already promised wifey some time the next couple days. ;)

Sirian

Feb 13, 2003, 02:03 PM

Warmongerish? Hmmph. I thought I had a reputation as an avid builder. :p

Actually, it's more like a Defensive Focus reputation. In Descent, they called me the ultimate Tunnel Rat. I hate to lose, so I didn't take many unmeasured risks. I was widely hated for playing "mind games", minimizing my exposure to enemy fire instead of challenging opponents in straight up dog fights. Of course, some made the mistake of believing that meant I couldn't dogfight well, but I kind of enjoyed that reputation. There was enormous entertainment obtained in the depth of silence pursuant to flipping the dial on my flight AggressoMeter from "careful" to "relentless" and shoving my ship and heavy weapons fire into their face nonstop for ten minutes. Those who broke and ran never got to whine (with credibility) ever again, and I savored the shocked quietude perhaps a little too much. :satan: :whipped: :lol: Always a good plan to have an ace in the hole. :)

OK OK, maybe I am a teensy little bit warmongerish after all. :p

- Sirian

Skyfish

Feb 14, 2003, 05:37 AM

@Charis : Sorry can only play on Sunday so I'll grab it on Saturday night if no-one has done it before...

Cartouche Bee

Feb 14, 2003, 11:18 AM

OK, "I got it.", I'll have it back in time for Skyfish. ;)

Skyfish

Feb 15, 2003, 11:40 AM

Poor Ms Bee :(
Not even on Valentine's day can she keep her Cartouche from Civ3 away ;)

Cartouche Bee

Feb 15, 2003, 07:11 PM

@Skyfish Oh no no no!! I was a good boy for Valentines.

PT - Reassign all home land cities to infrastructure. Load a transport to move workers to the home land.

1705 - India has been eliminated. Some artillery are ordered to be used to add shine to mosques. Worker production will be phased out to wealth. Workers are added back to homeland cities. Upgrade galleon to be ready for transporting workers to Profit Island. New government ordered.

1710 - Change to democracy gets us back over 650 GPT.

1715 - Continue restructure to settle unclaimed land, build mosques and relocate workers to holy cities.

1720 - Ditto

1725 - Ditto

IBT - Japan demands Motorized Transport - I think not! They declare war!

1730 - They move 2 stacks of units into the jungle to cut us off from New Kufah, not worried about that. They move another major stack towards Busiris, we obliterate all 35 units. Take out a few other single unit counter attacks. General Hind, goes back to headquarters with the news of the Japanese treachery on the front, with the battle smoke still settling they decide to wait a while before committing to forming another army. Since we were stronger than Japan before the battles I'm sure that Japan being about 40 units lighter now should be rethinking their last move. Claim Kish to better secure the narrows back to the Holy land. Since we have moved units from the interior to the front lines, the ROP with the Iroquois has been repealed.

1735 - The only Japanese counter attacks come from bombing runs on resources from Heliopilis and Memphis. So they become the focus of our counter attacks, to reclaim more of our rightful realm of influence.

1740 - We claim the ancient cities of Babylon and Ur. Japan has some forces but they are caught now retreating back though the jungle, that plan over there seemed to have failed solely on poor planning.

1745 - Keeping the pressure on the Japs.

1750 - OK, the Japs are ready to talk but they have another SOD of 27 units in my sights, the purging of the SOD produce the GL Ziyad Ibn Abihi, he will stick around for the next Abu at missionary Mosque. Japan sees the light and we let them off the hook, I think we lighten them of about 90 units in this war but our spy informs us that they still have 70 infantry left . :) Our spies have a good line on everybody at this point.

We are making more than 1000 GPT now from building up cities and trimming non-military unit expenses. I've left a leader and also two empty armies.

1750AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP3-Arabs-1750AD.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arabs1750AD.JPG

JMB

Feb 15, 2003, 09:17 PM

Nice turn Cartouche Bee.

JMB

Charis

Feb 15, 2003, 09:17 PM

Yowsa, look at that sea of pink!!!! Surely the faith is being spread to the very corners of the earth! :hammer:

Abu Cartouche has done well in not caving in to the demands of the infidel Japanese. The lesson he has taught them will not soon be forgotten...

May the Skyfish calm down the people and warm their hearts!

Charis

Skyfish

Feb 16, 2003, 01:47 AM

Wow CB ! nice turn !

Ben Skyfish the Heartwarmer has gotten it.

He will let Ziyad Ibn Abihi rule for 20 years.

Skyfish

Feb 16, 2003, 11:23 AM

Iraq : The Sunni-Shia Controversy.

The most critical problem that faced the young Islamic community revolved around the rightful successor to the office of caliph. Uthman, the third caliph, had encountered opposition during and after his election to the caliphate. Ali ibn Abu Talib, the Prophet Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law (by virtue of his marrying the Prophet's only surviving child, Fatima), had been the other contender.

Ali's pietism was disquieting to certain vested-interest groups, who perceived the more conservative Uthman as more likely to continue the policies of the previous caliph, Umar. Discontent increased, as did Ali's formal opposition to Uthman based on religious grounds. Ali claimed that innovations had been introduced that were not consonant with Quranic directives. Economics was the key factor for most of the members of the opposition, but this, too, acquired religious overtones.

As a result of the rapid military expansion of the Islamic movement, financial troubles beset Uthman. Many beduins had offered themselves for military service in Iraq and in Egypt. Their abstemious and hard life contrasted with the leisured life of Arabs in the Hijaz (the western part of the Arabian Peninsula), who were enjoying the benefits of conquest. When these volunteer soldiers questioned the allocation of lands and the distribution of revenues and pensions, they found a ready spokesman in Ali.

Groups of malcontents eventually left Iraq and Egypt to seek redress at Medina in the Hijaz. Uthman promised reforms, but on their return journey the rebels intercepted a message to the governor of Egypt commanding that they be punished. In response, the rebels besieged Uthman in his home in Medina, eventually slaying him. Uthman's slayer was a Muslim and a son of the first caliph, Abu Bakr. The Muslim world was shaken. Ali, who had not taken part in the siege, was chosen caliph.

Two opponents of Ali enlisted Aisha, a widow of the Prophet Muhammad, to join them in accusing Ali and demanding retribution for Uthman's death. When the three went to Iraq to seek support for their cause, Ali's forces engaged theirs near Basra. Aisha's two companions were killed, and Ali was clearly victorious. Muawiyah, a kinsman of Uthman and the governor of Syria, then refused to recognize Ali, and he demanded the right to avenge his relative's death. In what was perhaps the most important battle fought between Muslims, Ali's forces met Muawiyah's at the Plain of Siffin near the largest bend of the Euphrates River. Muawiyah's forces, seeing that they were losing, proposed arbitration. Accordingly, two arbitrators were chosen to decide whether Uthman's death had been deserved. Such a decision would give his slayer status as an executioner rather than as a murderer and would remove the claims of Uthman's relatives. When the arbitrators decided against Ali, he protested that the verdict was not in accordance with sharia (Islamic law) and declared his intention to resume the battle.

Ali's decision, however, came too late for the more extreme of his followers. Citing the Quranic injunction to fight rebels until they obey, these followers insisted that Ali was morally wrong to submit to arbitration. In doing so, they claimed, he bowed to the judgment of men--as opposed to the judgment of God that would have been revealed by the outcome of the battle. These dissenters, known as Kharajites (from the verb kharaja--to go out), withdrew from battle, an action that had far-reaching political effects on the Islamic community in the centuries ahead. Before resuming his dispute with Muawiyah, Ali appealed to the Kharajites; when they rejected the appeal, he massacred many of them. Furious at his treatment of pious Muslims, most of Ali's forces deserted him. He was forced to return to Al Kufah--about 150 kilometers south of Baghdad--and to await developments within the Islamic community.

A number of Islamic leaders met at Adruh in present-day Jordan, and the same two arbitrators from Siffin devised a solution to the succession problem. At last it was announced that neither Ali nor Muawiyah should be caliph; Abd Allah, a son of Umar, was proposed. The meeting terminated in confusion, however, and no final decision was reached. Both Ali and Muawiyah bided their time in their separate governorships: Muawiyah, who had been declared caliph by some of his supporters, in newly conquered Egypt, and Ali, in Iraq. Muawiyah fomented discontent among those only partially committed to Ali. While praying in a mosque at Al Kufah, Ali was murdered by a Kharajite in 661. The ambitious Muawiyah induced Ali's eldest son, Hasan, to renounce his claim to the caliphate. Hasan died shortly thereafter, probably of consumption, but the Shias (see Glossary) later claimed that he had been poisoned and dubbed him "Lord of All Martyrs." Ali's unnatural death ensured the future of the Shia movement--Ali's followers returned to his cause--and quickened its momentum. With the single exception of the Prophet Muhammad, no man has had a greater impact on Islamic history. The Shia declaration of faith is: "There is no God but God; Muhammad is his Prophet and Ali is the Saint of God."

Subsequently, Muawiyah was declared caliph. Thus began the Umayyad Dynasty, which had its capital at Damascus. Yazid I, Muawiyah's son and his successor in 680, was unable to contain the opposition that his strong father had vigorously quelled. Husayn, Ali's second son, refused to pay homage and fled to Mecca, where he was asked to lead the Shias--mostly Iraqis--in a revolt against Yazid I. Ubayd Allah, governor of Al Kufah, discovered the plot and sent detachments to dissuade him. At Karbala, in Iraq, Husayn's band of 200 men and women refused to surrender and finally were cut down by a force of perhaps 4,000 Umayyad troops. Yazid I received Husayn's head, and Husayn's death on the tenth of Muharram (October 10, 680) continues to be observed as a day of mourning for all Shias. Ali's burial place at An Najaf, about 130 kilometers south of Baghdad, and Husayn's at Karbala, about 80 kilometers southwest of Baghdad, are holy places of pilgrimage for Shias, many of whom feel that a pilgrimage to both sites is equal to a pilgrimage to Mecca (see Religious Life , ch. 2).

The importance of these events in the history of Islam cannot be overemphasized. They created the greatest of the Islamic schisms, between the party of Ali (the Shiat Ali, known in the West as Shias or Shiites) and the upholders of Muawiyah (the Ahl as Sunna, the People of the Sunna--those who follow Muhammad's custom and example) or the Sunnis (see Glossary). The Sunnis believe they are the followers of orthodoxy. The ascendancy of the Umayyads and the events at Karbala, in contrast, led to a Shia Islam which, although similar to Sunni Islam in its basic tenets, maintains important doctrinal differences that have had pervasive effects on the Shia world view. Most notably, Shias have viewed themselves as the opposition in Islam, the opponents of privilege and power. They believe that after the death of Ali and the ascension of the "usurper" Umayyads to the caliphate, Islam took the wrong path; therefore, obedience to existing temporal authority is not obligatory. Furthermore, in sacrificing his own life for a just cause, Husayn became the archetypal role model who inspired generations of Shias to fight for social equality and for economic justice.

During his caliphate, Ali had made Al Kufah his capital. The transfer of power to Syria and to its capital at Damascus aroused envy among Iraqis. The desire to regain preeminence prompted numerous rebellions in Iraq against Umayyad rule. Consequently, only men of unusual ability were sent to be governors of Al Basrah and Al Kufah. One of the most able was Ziyad ibn Abihi, who was initially governor of Al Basrah and later also of Al Kufah. Ziyad divided the residents of Al Kufah into four groups (not based on tribal affiliation) and appointed a leader for each one. He also sent 50,000 beduins to Khorasan (in northeastern Iran), the easternmost province of the empire, which was within the jurisdiction of Al Basrah and Al Kufah.

The Iraqis once again became restive when rival claimants for the Umayyad caliphate waged civil war between 687 and 692. Ibn Yasuf ath Thaqafi al Hajjaj was sent as provincial governor to restore order in Iraq in 694. He pacified Iraq and encouraged both agriculture and education.
___________________________________________
After this historic interlude, back to the game...

It's on "auto-pilot" as the General CB says, left with a perfect world I just concentrated on building loads of culture.
Early :
Gems traded with china.
China declares on Celts
Middle : china has got Computers but no deal.
We hit 90039 culture points and make aro. 840 per turn, not much time left...
Spanish finish Fission and build the UN...
Late : we lose our Spy in Beijing. No consequence. Seville building UN, prod of 67, due in 12 turns.
We discover Ecology (last turn), trade it (+800g) to China for Fission and Computers (nice tufer) : switch around some some build orders to Research Lab.
We are at almost 95K culture...

The great Leader Abihi is still in Medina waiting for the orders of the new Abu, the Abu that will lead us to certain and glorious victory. He could help our pious people to build the United Nations ! :D
I find it most fitting that an Iraki should build this prestigeous institution. I have to greatly restrict myself not to make some (too overt) peaceful political comment having played this fitting variant at such opportune time. :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Abu_Bakr_of_the_Arabs,_1770_AD.zip

It was such an honour to play such a beautiful game with such glorious company. Thanks to the Abu, the Nagus and the General (and all the others of course) !

ps : if you want more info about what I have written about the Sunnite and Shiite, you can PM me...