Hey everyone, here is an Open Succession Game (OSG) for anyone to play. Below is a short explanation of OSG games.

Open Succession Game (OSG):

An open succession doesn’t have a fixed number of players. After one player posts a game file, the next player in the succession will be the first person to post and say he is playing. OSGs are faster games because the player has a short period of time to play his turn (4h since the person said he was playing, this period gets higher as the late game is a bit slow). That way, every time you get to the forums, there’s a good possibility that you'll find an OSG in which you can play. Another attribute of OSGs is the fact that they hardly stall.

General OSG Guidelines:
- Open (anyone can play).
- 20 turns.
- Complete turns within 24 hours and post outline of important events.
- Upload save game in your post (email may be too slow re: gathering emails for who is playing next, but if it works it works).

*Be sure to post saying your next, then download the game.

Set-up:

Map (standard) --- "Imperialism" map from Civ3.com (all advance strategic resources are located on a large landmass covered by hundreds upon hundreds of barbarians)
Civs --- Random (8)
General settings --- standard.
Difficulty --- Regent
Civ --- Persia
Victory Conditions --- All Activated.
OSG Goal --- Space Race

My turns:

4000 BC - Moved settler south one tile.

3950 BC - Established Persepolis.

3750 BC - Barbarian ransacked capital.

3700 BC - Warrior built.

3100 BC - Settler built

3050 BC - Game Saved.

I'm sending the settler/warrior south to build next township. Persepolis is unguarded but a spearman will be completed in a few turns. Just looking at expansion for now. Tech-line set for literature (Great Library).

Persia Pic (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/persia.jpg)

Save Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,3050BC-SAV.zip)

Another link for the save game.

Uh oh- just downloaded the OSG (wife is in bed, dogs are outside, and I have a whole case of Diet Coke to myself....)

Then I realized- this newbie has no idea how to upload the thing when I'm done with it! If someone could just tell me that I'd be off and running.

Thanks!

Oh wait- there it is. OK- I'm the idiot. Sorry.

Ok- here's what I did:

3050 BC: switched Science to Iron Working as goal- these are the Persians, after all, and Immortals just ROCK.

2900 BC: Settler has moved south to the coast, Pasargadae built.

2670 BC: Our Warrior has earned his keep by killing off some barbarians and taking their wallets and valuables.

2470 BC: Same Warrior, drunk from previous victory, disturbs another barbarian encampment southeast of the first one and gets his butt kicked.

2230 BC: Persepolis had built another Settler- this one I would think should go northeast to expand towards the apparent isthmus the Warrior found. This would allow defense from the north easily if there be other peoples up there.

What I'm thinking is simple, I guess- the best thing the Persians have going is the ability to expand rapidly in the early stages, and build a really strong offensive unit early on. I would want Iron Working ASAP, then spend some time pumping out cities till we can build a real army.

Anyway, here's the game.....

This turn was all about expansion, laying the groundwork for future wonders, and trading with the northerly Babylonians.

1950: Susa founded, further east than ideal, but the site is a guaranteed super-city. A temple prebuild is started, to keep unhappiness under control while growing well past size 6.

1870: Arbela founded, and starts work on the Colossus. I don't think we'll need a temple first, but that's debatable.

1790: Antioch founded and starts work on a granary. This should be our future capital, because Persepolis is too far west. The granary will allow it to grow fast enough to "catch" the palace jump, once we let the original Persepolis disappear with a last settler build. To make sure the palace goes here and not to Susa, it's probably worth building a temple first.

1675: Contact with Babylon results in a trade of the alphabet plus 18 gold for ceremonial burial and warrior code.

1650: Iron working is researched, and we have an iron resource within our borders. Research begins on writing. We shouldn't need the Great Library, as we can outresearch the AI and would waste the free tech entering the Middle Ages, but as a scientific civ, it's worth reaching literature and building cheap libraries asap.

1575: Trade Babylon iron working for pottery, mysticism plus 5 gold.

Pasargadae is now building a barracks, to be vfollowed by immortals, but it could switch roles with Arbela.

The cities built with future Persepolis workers may be best off building workers, barracks, and immortals.

Workers could clear forest around Antioch, and improve the two proposed wonder cities.

Because Persia is buried at the bottom of the globe, we will have to pay for communications once we research writing. On the other hand, our lands have terrain whose variety is ideal, and three different luxuries as well. Once our Immortals expand north into Babylon, we should have all the territory we need to achieve our stated OSG goal: winning the space race.

Remember, advance strategic resources will have to be secured from another landmass, filled w/ barbarians.

Also, I downloaded the save to look around, but I couldn't opoen it - corrupt. I wonder if I should start up in OS X for now on.

Heh, I remember this problem people have been having. I spent a couple minutes looking into it. I don't know what causes it (my guess would be the programs used to zip and unzip the file don't do it quite right) but I do know how to fix it. Start ResEdit (can be obtained from here (http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/dl-redirect.pl/ResEdit213.sit.hqx?path=ev/utilities&file=ResEdit213.sit.hqx)) and "Get File/Folder Info" on the .SAV file. Enter "GAMs" (without quotes, of course) into the "type" field and "Civ3" (again without quotes) into the "creator" field. These are almost certainly case sensitive, but I have not checked. Close the window and save changes. At any rate, once you do this, the file will have the normal savegame icon and will be recognized by Civ3.

Thanks Beamup! :goodjob: Another great example of a mac user going the extra mile! ;)

Oh, I didn't realize this was the imperialism map. In that case, we probably want to build the Lighthouse ahead of the Colossus. And all the more reaon to centralize the capital, since the FP will be built on the big continent. (That said, it would be interesting to win this game WITHOUT colonizing the other conrtinent!)

By the way, Dojoboy, were you able to open my game now? Or Tao's? I wonder why I could open dcaint's zip, but mine can't be opened.

Antone who would like me to email them a .sit file which they can then unstuff, email me at (material@gte.net).

OK, I'll take the next turn. My thoughts:

- Lighthouse would be quite useful, yes. My pick for second-priority wonder is the Pyramids.

- A more productive government will be preferable before we start the war with Babylon. Our GA will be much more useful then.

- My priorities will be further expansion and a buildup of Immortals. Research priority will be Map Making (we want to start colonizing the center ASAP) followed by Literature (won't be building many libraries during the military buildup anyway).

1550 (preturn) - Warrior in Antioch unfortified and sent off to northeast, production in Antioch switched to replacement Warrior. We shouldn't stop exploring. Pasargadae switches to producing a Spearman instead of a Barracks, a Worker will follow.

1500 - Negotiations with Babylon reveal that their army is bigger, but we have more cities (5 to 4)

1475 - Antioch builds Warrior, starts Worker. We need more Workers very badly.

1450 - Antioch connected to road network. Road to Iron begun.

1425 - Nothing of note.

1400 - Babylon founds Ellipi at the isthmus. Their borders cut us off in that direction, we are not yet ready for war. We now have only a couple more sites available for expansion. Writing has been discovered somewhere in the world. Warrior fortified at the border, another sent to join him - we want to keep an eye on them so Settlers can be blocked at the border.

1375 - Nothing of note.

1350 - Pasargadae and Antioch build Workers, switch to Barracks.

1325 - Settler built. Sent over to the north of Antioch to fill in that gap. The site will have substantial overlap with a couple Babylonian cities, but it'll just be coast tiles. We'll want two more cities over by Susa and Arbela.

1300 - Nothing of note.

1275 - The Worker by Arbela goes crazy and starts heading off east without orders. Reload - he does it again. Reload and move him manually. (I believe the reload is justified here because this behavior is clearly a bug.)

1250 - Nothing of note.

1225 - Writing developed, next target is Map Making (24 turns). Embassy established with Babylon. They will not sign an RoP unless we pay them. They have no communications with anyone else. Tarsus founded, starts Spearman.

1200 - Nothing of note.

1175 - Nothing of note.

1150 - Babylon starts building the Pyramids. There's little point racing them for it, we should simply capture it. Susa can build the Oracle instead. Spearman exploring near Arbela finds a tiny isthmus connecting to the east, despite the fact that it looked like a dead end! He has to turn around to become MP in Arbela, but one of the Warriors on the border is dispatched to explore further.

1125 - Susa starts the Oracle.

1100 - Nothing of note.

1075 - Babylon sends a Warrior south out of Ellipi. The Warrior and Spearman on the border will get in his way as much as possible. This is probably just a scouting/mapping probe.

1050 - Nothing of note.

1025 - Pasargadae builds Barracks, starts Immortals. Game saved.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,_1025_BC.SAV.zip)

Not much really going on right now. There's a Babylonian Warrior inside Susa's borders (they just expanded). We could order him out or sign an RoP for cash, I'm more inclined to let it pass. We need more Immortals to start the war - maybe Susa should be switched to Immortals from the Oracle to produce a faster military buildup. Babylon's no match for our tech, and Bowmen can't stand up to Immortals, but we still want to hit hard and fast. Hopefully we can eliminate them entirely, since they don't have too many cities yet. Exploration to the east should continue (Warrior en route) but Babylon should be the priority IMO. We'll be getting Map Making fairly soon - we should trade maps with Babylon immediately so we can tell what we're dealing with as far as the war goes.

Cool! Beamup, could you post a pic. I'm out of town and on my Mom's PC. :( Txurce, I will not be able to try and fix tao's save until Christmas night, late. So, hopefully I'll get started on my turns sometime Thursday.

Good turn, Beamup. Thinking about this game, it occurred to me that we may be prevented from reaching the other hemisphere until our ships can cross deep water, which isn't until late in the Middle Ages. By then, the Lighthouse will have lost its value. I think it still may be worth going for, so as to make contact faster with the other civs... but again, the odds are that we'll be last in this regard, given our starting position. My other thought about this scenario's conditions is that by the time we reach the other continent, barbarians will be so primitive as to barely be a nuisance.

Originally posted by dojoboy
Cool! Beamup, could you post a pic. I'm out of town and on my Mom's PC. :(

*shrug* Sure. Not much to post a pic of, but here it is. *EDIT - ugh, that doesn't look very good. Unfortunately it's the best I can do getting it below 100K.*

Originally posted by Txurce
Good turn, Beamup. Thinking about this game, it occurred to me that we may be prevented from reaching the other hemisphere until our ships can cross deep water, which isn't until late in the Middle Ages. By then, the Lighthouse will have lost its value. I think it still may be worth going for, so as to make contact faster with the other civs... but again, the odds are that we'll be last in this regard, given our starting position. My other thought about this scenario's conditions is that by the time we reach the other continent, barbarians will be so primitive as to barely be a nuisance.

My thinking with respect to the Lighthouse is that we don't yet know what it will take to get there. It's quite possible the Lighthouse would let a Galley get there. Since the description doesn't make it clear what "advanced" resources are (e.g. would saltpeter count?), we don't really know whether we'd be intended to get there with Astronomy (or GL) or with Navigation/Magnestism. Even if not, we still need to know how the world stands and what it looks like. In other words, the GL will be useful regardless. And since the barbs are supposed to be an important factor according to the description, I doubt we'd need Navigation/Magnetism - as you say, that would make the barbs irrelevant.

As far as contact goes, I'd point out that the Babs have no contact with anyone else either. Because of that, and since designed maps usually try to balance the starting positions, my guess is that we're probably not in as bad of a location as it might look like. Again, we don't KNOW anything and need to find out. Also, we need to make contact anyway, even if it isn't easy.

So I still support the Lighthouse (as well as getting some Galleys out ASAP to start exploring). Once we actually have Map Making, though, we can get the Bab map and we'll know substantially more about the world. So the decision can certainly be left till then.

Beamup, I think going for the Lighthouse will be useful as well. And it would be great if this wonder played into this scenario's central theme.

I think our starting postion is actually really good. My point was that because we are at the bottom of the map, and with the only path north being through Babylon, I predict that most or all of the other civs will discover each other first.

Well, I guess if no one has kept the game going since 1025 bc then I will give a crack at this succession game (first one). Regency is my level anyway, I win on it but so far lost on my first Monarch game (no iron). If for some reason I don't upload the file right or no one can open it (OS 9.2) then someone else can take over from 1025 bc.

I played my twenty, I upload the file, so how do I get it here?!!!
It is in the upload3 folder titled "Xerxes, 570 BC.SAV".

Originally posted by n8mac
I played my twenty, I upload the file, so how do I get it here?!!!
It is in the upload3 folder titled "Xerxes, 570 BC.SAV".

First, thanks for taking part in the OSG! :goodjob:

Second, uploading can be confusing. What you need to do after uploading a file. BTW, game files need to be zipped, your's came through as page of "gibberish" when I tried to look at it. I went to the "uploads3" page and found the game. When uploading, use the [http//:] feature above the text box when poating a reply. You'll first type in whatever name you want to show up in your post to represent the download, like "n8mac's save file." Then you hit okay and you'll be given a another window to type in the web address for the file, be sure the file name is correct.


Below link not operational, n8mac, if you would, upload it again as a zipped file. If you have problems, just email me [btherr1@bellsouth.net] the file and I'll zip it and upload it for you.

n8mac's save file (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,_570_BC.SAV)

Thats funny, I was replying in that blank box below all the messages. I just realized that there was a post reply button, now I know how to do the options. Im new to forums but not to civ, so here goes my turns...

1000 - 2 wonders in a civ this small bothered me so I moved the Oracle to Arbela and stopped the Colossus. I have a history of loosing wonder races to the computer, frustrating.

925 - Pasargadae starts immortals.

875 - Antioch starts immortals.

850 - Tarsus builds worker. Gordium is our newest city to the east.

800 - Pasargadae builds immortals.

750 - Discovered map making [dance] . Make a tech goal of Monarchy. Persepolis starts galley after building immortal.

730 - Susa builds settler, starts immortal. I traded my world map and 9 gold for Babylon territory map, cities are tied at 7.

690 - Pasargadae builds immortals.

670 - Babylon asked for tribute, I said I don't think so, and they said ok no problemo, sir. Antioch builds immortals.

650 - Athens (greek) builds Colossus (I told you so). Bactra is founded.

630 - Persepolis builds galley.

590 - Pasargadae builds immortals. I traded Babylon 115 gold for the wheel as we didn't have any tech they didn't.

570 - Susa builds immortals.

Notes...
For whoever takes the game now, 6 immortals and 2 warriors stand at the foot of Babylon. 3 more immortals will be built in 2 turns. A settler is being built for a city in the far east. Either two small cities or one large city can fit there. Babylon should fall easily since their cities are small. After taking out their first city, I would head for that city northeast because it contains their iron, then I would rush Nineveh before it flips Tarsus. I set it up so that we can switch to Monarchy after defeating Babylon and maybe starting the hanging gardens. Also, the forbidden palace is available.

Xerxes, 570.sav.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/xerxes, 570 bc.sav.zip)

n8mac, go back and check your link. I beleive there is an error. I went and downloaded your save from the uploads 3 page, went fine - just need to correct the link.

I've played on the Imperialism map plenty of times, and I know a lot about what you need to be successful in this map. But I don't know if you guys want a lot of info, a little info, or no info at all if you want to figure it out by yourselves. I will try to download the sav. file, but since I'm stuck with a OS 9, I can only run Civ III v.1.16f. I don't think my version will be able to read the file. Not the end of the world, since I can still give you valuable info on the map. I hope everybody had a nice christmas or kwanza, and a happy new year in 11 hours and 49 minutes EST.

Originally posted by elpadrino87
I've played on the Imperialism map plenty of times, and I know a lot about what you need to be successful in this map. But I don't know if you guys want a lot of info, a little info, or no info at all if you want to figure it out by yourselves. I will try to download the sav. file, but since I'm stuck with a OS 9, I can only run Civ III v.1.16f. I don't think my version will be able to read the file. Not the end of the world, since I can still give you valuable info on the map. I hope everybody had a nice christmas or kwanza, and a happy new year in 11 hours and 49 minutes EST.

I thought about providing some information on the Imperialism map, but refrained because I felt it would make the players decisions to easy - rather than discovery and chance.

I'm using 1.21g under classic 9x OS. Why would you be unable to? I highly recommend it, 1.21g is a better version ogf the game.

Happy New Year! [party] [dance] :band: :beer: (Champaigne in beer mugs!)

Saved Game = Xerxes, 570 BC.SAV



Xerxes,570BC-SAV.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,570BC-SAV.zip)

OK, we seem to have stalled a bit - it's been two days since the last post, and it doesn't seem anyone's taking the next turn. I would, but since I took the next-to-last turn, someone else should probably play this one. Anybody?

I'll jump back in if need be..... I just thought I should let everyone else have a crack at it. Is it acceptable OSG behavior to take a second turn at this point?

If nobody has picked up the ball by tomorrow night I'll take it.

Since there've been 3 turns since your last one, I think you're fine to take another. IMO you should let at least 2 other people play between your turns, and you shouldn't "hog" the turns, but other than that it's OK to take multiple turns.

OK- well, don't stall the game on my account. If someone has not picked it up by 9:00PM EST Friday, 1/3, I'll take another turn. If someone wants to get in before that, feel free- I'll just take another turn later!

OK- I'm in for another round at 0034 1/5/03

Well, here it is- at least I got to fulfil my penchant for swordplay!

550BC- Sent workers north to complete roads to Babylon to prepare for the inevitable struggle ahead. Our Galley got ambushed by barbarians, and sank them with minor damage.

530BC- Persepolis/Tarsus/Susa built their Immortals. Kept them at it- we'll probably need them. Sent those Immortals north to mass on the border with Babylon. Our Galley got ambushed AGAIN- sank 'em again. Pesky pirates.

510BC- Our Galley found the Romans, so we traded maps. They offered Philosophy + 10G for contact with Babylon- that was a no-brainer- we took it.

490BC- Pasargadae built Settler- sent him east to colonize that isthmus area east of Bactra. My opinion is that one big city there would be a better idea.

470BC- Our Galley found Egypt. Traded maps, then traded them contact with Babylon for Horseback Riding. Kind of useless, but free tech is free tech. We then gave them Polytheism for contact with Greece + Mathematics + 40G. Cleopatra wants 100G for Code of Laws- no way. Then called up the Greeks- gave them contact with Babylon + Polytheism for Code of Laws + Contact with China. Traded maps with Mao, but he won't make a good offer for any tech.

450BC- Bactra builds its worker- switched them to Spearman.

410BC- Pasargadae/Susa complete Immortals, switched them to Spearmen for defense plus Settler escort. There are now 11 Immortals massed at Babylon's gates.

390BC- Cleopatra rang up and offered contact with Japan for 40G plus the map she already had- took that deal. Traded Tokugawa our map for cantact with India- he won't give up his map. Traded maps with Gandhi.

Whoops- Ellipi's culture expanded and our Immortals are in the way....:eek: Of course you know, this means WAR.

Our Warrior east of Ellipi took out their Warrior- GA!
Moved all the Immortals twords Ellipi, moved the Warrior east to cover their backs from Akkad/Ashur.

370BC- Took Ellipi, no casualties. They had Bowmen defending, so stay on offensive cuz they stink. Moved 2 Immortals towards Ashur-good city site there. Everyone else heads for Babylon.

350BC- Ashur destroyed:( but we got 2 slaves out of it.

330BC- Babs has 2 Warriors coming from Akkad-our guys fell back to lure them in. Susa completed a Spearman-sent him to Ellipi. Antioch built Immortals, switched them to Settler to replace Ashur. Our Settler founded Sidon.

290BC- Their Warriors fell for it-walked right into ours. Scratch 2 Warriors for them.

270BC- Gordium builds a Galley to explore the east. Switched them to Temple se we can expand our border to grab some good squares.

250BC- Delhi completed the Oracle. Switched us to Lighthouse. I'm open to suggestion on this one.
Our boys destroyed Lagash, lost a Warrior doing it. Our Immortals took Ur. The city placement sucks but I didn't raze it since our Settlers are far away and I didn't want the rep hit. One Immortal made Elite. One Immortal destroyed Eridu.

Traded maps with Mao.

200BC- Uruk destroyed, got 1 slave. Romans land where Eridu used to be:cry: Immortals will try to push them around a bit, but this really sucks.

190 BC- discovered Monarchy- opted not to switch just yet, till the war is done. Set tech goal for Literature- I'm open to suggestion on that one too. We captured Nineveh but lost 2 Immortals doing it- that Bowman was dug in deep!

150BC- Babylon falls! Got one slave, lost one Immortal. Hammurabi says he will give all gold plus maps not to kill him- I will let the next player decide on this- we are a long way from their last city, and they managed to drop a Bowman next to Ur, which only has one unfortified Spearman at the moment. Probably better to take the deal and start building cities and culture again.

Comments are welcome........

By the way- still trying to ZIP this file tight enough to upload it. Can't get it below 162K with ZipIt- suggestions? How do you do it?

Originally posted by dcaint

By the way- still trying to ZIP this file tight enough to upload it. Can't get it below 162K with ZipIt- suggestions? How do you do it?

You might wanna try using the Easy File Upload. scroll down to the bottom of the screen, and click "Upload File." Use that to upload your file, and then link it up. The limit is 3000k i believe.

btw, I might be interested in this, if I happen to have time tomorrow. Gotta finish up a book, luckily, have only 4 chapters left.

Got it-

It's at http://www/civfanatics/uploads3/Xerxes,_150_BC.zip

dcaint,

Your file came up not found. Your file was uploaded fine though. I think you should hyperlink the file using the 'http://' option and follow the next two windows that pop up. The option is right below the 'B I U SIZE FONT COLOR' line. Remember, the next time you have a problem with the forums ask postmaster dojoboy.:D

who's next?

Originally posted by dcaint
Got it-

It's at http://www/civfanatics/uploads3/Xerxes,_150_BC.zip

I think the problem here is the web address is wrong.

Test:

It's at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,_150_BC.zip

My bad- that's what I get for posting at 3AM. Sorry about that.

So who's next?

I just had a look at the game, and maybe you profit from the following points (hopefully):
You have 2 settlers and build 4 more. Do you have any idea, where to found 6 more cities? I doubt it.
Sidon is - excuse me - iditiotically placed. It now forever misses one whale and one fish resource. It should have been on the northern tile of the peninsula. A second city could have been founded on the southeast edge of the peninsula.
The last 20 turns, you failed to exploit the furs; unexcusable.
Arbela should have a specialist to trigger wltkd and reduce corruption. Why are the 3 tiles north of it improved, while they cannot be worked? Lots of wasted worker turns.
Building the road on the mountain south of Ur is a great waste. It could be built on the plains in 1/3 the time!
Niniveh has an entertainer, but should work the whale; very very bad. Furthermore, it should build temple instead of spear to get at the fish and 2 bonus graslands.
I suggest all of you to make usage of the great info on civfanatics website. Reading and understanding some of the good players' succession games will also help you a lot. At least it did for me.

Originally posted by tao
I just had a look at the game, and maybe you profit from the following points (hopefully):
You have 2 settlers and build 4 more. Do you have any idea, where to found 6 more cities? I doubt it.
Sidon is - excuse me - iditiotically placed. It now forever misses one whale and one fish resource. It should have been on the northern tile of the peninsula. A second city could have been founded on the southeast edge of the peninsula.
The last 20 turns, you failed to exploit the furs; unexcusable.
Arbela should have a specialist to trigger wltkd and reduce corruption. Why are the 3 tiles north of it improved, while they cannot be worked? Lots of wasted worker turns.
Building the road on the mountain south of Ur is a great waste. It could be built on the plains in 1/3 the time!
Niniveh has an entertainer, but should work the whale; very very bad. Furthermore, it should build temple instead of spear to get at the fish and 2 bonus graslands.
I suggest all of you to make usage of the great info on civfanatics website. Reading and understanding some of the good players' succession games will also help you a lot. At least it did for me.

tao strikes again! ;) :goodjob: Again tao, I ask you to start an OSG to purport the magic of micromanagement. Of course, you could just make guest appearances here as well. I also would like to recommend a username change for you --- from tao to "Master tao" ;) ! Your not by chance in charge of Germany's financial affairs, are you?:D

Originally posted by dojoboy Again tao, I ask you to start an OSG to purport the magic of micromanagement. Of course, you could just make guest appearances here as well. Thanks, but I'm mostly lazy. RBE (http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/) has all the information you want; you just have to dig thru it. I prefer short guest appearances. :)
Your not by chance in charge of Germany's financial affairs, are you?You seem not to be aware of the pity status of Germany's financials. :(

PS: Always remember: There is a life beyond Civ III!

PPS: Do we really need the default bold tags in the quotes? I consider them bad taste.

Tao-
I agree with most everything you said. No sense picking everything apart here though......

Maybe you should take a turn and fix all my mistakes.

dcaint is right, some people play at a faster rate (like me) and don't pay attention to every detail. I personally like to rush through the city building stages until I come into contact with multiple civs. If I miss a few things and put myself behind the A.I. a step all the better. I get a bigger kick out of the game working my way up from a tech behind and a city short instead of starting out on top.

Apparently Tao's strong point is micromanagement of cities, but not all civ players are the same. My strong point is war; who to ally with, when to change from normalcy, and what government to go with. Everyone plays differently. Tips are good but no one is wrong for not following them. If you want something done right (or your way) you have to do it yourself. This is an OSG so play your twenty Tao!

Regarding my post and your comments, I would like to elaborate a little bit on my motivation.

Succession games are (at least it would be my motivation) a way to improve your playing skills by exposing your moves to the community visiting these forums. Therefore, as a participant, you should take a little time and explain your strategic goals and move tactics. This helps others to either learn or have a basis for better criticism.

This game looks like an easy win, and I don't think I will learn much in participating, therefore I will not. If the players are interested in comments, I will give them as my time allows. But please tell me, whether you are interested or not.

Now let me give some of my thinking on djb3 (of course, these are my thoughts and I know, that there are many better Civ III players, who may not agree with my opinions). Research strategy: You started going for GLib, then switched goal to monarchism. Now you again research literature with 80%.
Take a moment and look at the reseach map; you will see, that GLib will do us no good. It expires with education, which is just 4 techs away (the AIs have construction and currency, we will get a free one at the start of the middle ages). It is debatable, whether we want to continue 80% on literature, or set research to 0% immediately. Personally, I would just trade for the techs.
Wonder strategy: GLib will do us no good (see above). GLight is good, because we have to get to the resource continent. We should designate a super science city to get Copernicus, Newton's, SETI. Antioch and Pasargadae both are premium wonder cities: close to the capital, hence little corruption. And the palace can be used as a pre-build, because they are not the capital. In consequence, both should not build settlers, but concentrate on infrastructure immediately.
Forbidden Palace: I suppose, it will be on the resource continent.
Regarding the foreign relations, I would do as follows: Peace with Babylon immediately; bleed them for everything they have, including Samara. With a warrior and a worker, Samara is secure until marines arrive.
At an appropriate time (when Rome, Egypt are at war), capture Ravenna and El-Amarna.
Trade for construction, currency and most of AIs money.
Establish embassies to see, whether it is still feasable to aim for the Pyramids or HGardens.
Build a harbour to prepare for resource trades.
Suggestions for next turn player (but you may decide oherwise, of course): Spend the rest of the Golden Age in despotism and hope, that the AIs research republic until you revolt.
Buildup infrastructure to prepare for settling the new continent. Prepare ships and some horsemen for fast exploration.
Our immortals are strong enough to defend our continent for now. If we build some units, maybe 2 or 3 horsemen for fast blocking actions.
Connect the newly conquered cities. In the future, pay attention that road building on plains/hills/mountains requires 1/2/3 in effort.
Look thru all city displays (start with the capital, use right arrow to go to next) and adjust citizens for max productivity resp. growth.
Good luck!

PS: I welcome everybody to comment on our djb-2: "A Maritime History of Russia" (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38798) succession game!

So did the game stall, or what? Don't quit now, it was just getting interesting!

Why don't you play a turn? You don't have to worry about making mistakes - the game is already full of them. People commenting on your move should heighten your learning curve.

I am at work right now and have to go to my water aerobics class tonight, so it might take me longer than 24 hours to play 20 turns? If that is acceptable let me know and I will try to figure out how to download the game when I get home this evening. Or maybe Tao could email it to me if he's amenable to the risk of me messing up your game.. is it permissible here to give out my email address?? Heike. Thanks for the invite!

Heike- I wouldn't worry about Tao. He seems content with the role of armchair despot in this game. If MY first turns didn't get anyone P.O.'d I highly doubt anything you could do would frost anybody!

The link to the game is on the previous page of this thread. Just click it to download- if it downloads to any other place than your Civ3:Saves folder you'll have to drag it in there.

Whenever you can start play, just post that you're taking the next turns and download the file. Then email one of us when you're done and we'll walk you through uploading your save back to the website (and yes, Dojo, I'll get the address right this time.)

Feel free to email me directly by clicking on the "email" link in this reply, if you need to.

Now, about that water aerobics thing......

As invited by n8mac and tao, here is my take at the next 20 moves from 150 BC - thanks to tao & dojoboy for their comments (see also 'New Player Questions' thread).

Before completing 150 BC traded Construction (Persians), Currency (Romans), World Map (WM) + 160 gold (Greece),150 g (Egyptians), WM + 7 g (Japanese), WM + 10 g (Indians) and made peace with Babylon. Reset some city production. We now have all the techs and most of the gold ! Set science to Feudalism (Pikeman). Trade Literature when AI gets it and build libraries.

130 BC M1
Arbella builds Gt Lighthouse. Set Pasargadae to Hanging Gardens and set Arbella to build galley. Re-org N troops. Set workers to building roads in N. Start process of disbanding Ur and move to coast.

110 BC M2
Move settler up to Akkad to crowd Babylon & block coast. Position galley (in SW) for move W. Dito Galley in NW.

90 BC M3
Found Tyre near Akkad. Use as springboad for later attack on Akkad. Galley (SW) sails W (we take a risk on loss)

70 BC M4
Blockade N coast against Egyptians. Prepare to take El-Amarna if forced to attack - Strategy is to have unshared occupation of this island.

50 BC M5
Continue developing resources around Pasargadae.

30 BC M6
Disband Ur and found Sardis. Found Samaria.
Success ! Found land in SW. Attached by barbarian Galley. NW Galley sails W. SE Galley positioned.

10 BC M7
NE galley lost (can't win them all). SE Galley attacks Barbarian Galley. SE Galley sails E.

10 AD M8
Continue exploration of resource continent. Continue last of road building.

30 AD M9
Golden Age ends. SE galley founders. Grrrr.

50 AD M10
Looe last Galley to barbarians. Egyptians land S of Persepolis. Move troops to capture. Move troops next to El-Amarna.

70 AD M11
Destroy new city and capture El Amarna. Only Babelonians & Ravena to deal with.

90 AD M12
Nothing special

110 AD M13
Egyptians beat us to Hanging Gardens. Not unexpected conserve resources by switching to Art of War or Sistine Chapel (with next science advance).

110 AD M14
Nothing Special

130 AD M15
Trade for Literature (Greeks). Was I too slow or did AI trade among themselves? Establish embassies with Rome & Greece. build up troops near Akkad.

150 AD M16
Make peace with Egypt (should have done sooner). Upgrade to Pikemen.

170 AD M17
Indians finnish Gt Wall. Enter Babylonian territory around Akkad.

190 AD M18
Attack Akkad.

210 AD M19
Greeks declare war (too far away to matter). Destroy Akkad.

230 AD M20
16 cities covering most of our 'island'. Score 328 (highest). Ahead in techs, adequate troops. Researching Theology since long term research goal is Caravel / Navigation to reach Resource Continent (RC). This path will also make AIs Oracle & Gt Library obsolete.

Future - Trade Chivalry (Knight) for mobility in occupation of RC ? Trade Republic and switch to up productivity once Sistine Chapel built ? Perhaps risk more Galley trips to do early exploration and locate best landing sites ? Its your call.

Game uploaded as Xeres, 230 AD.SAV.ZIP (note typo) in /upload3 page.

duplicate deleted

Congratulations MacBaldrick on taking the initiative. Let me give you some fast comments:

In your peace deal with Babylon, you missed to demand (and get) Samarra, which is a pity. The 2 tile island is impregnable with a warrior plus worker "defense" until amphibious war/marines become available aeons from now.

You did not keep the peace treaty with Babylon for 20 turns. You did not even mention to properly declare war. This annoyed all civs against Persia without necessity. In consequence, the AIs will be much less willing to trade in the future.

You did not follow my advice ;) to establish embassies immediately with the money you got in the pre-turn trades. Otherwise, you would have known about the imminent finishing of HGardens and GWall. (I always take notes on shields acuumulated and shpt capability of AI capitals, once I get the info.)

Exploring the seas was a heroic effort, but quite useless. We will search resources on the new continent, but those are not yet visible because we lack the required techs. :( .

IMHO, Persia now needs to build infrastructure: markets, harbours, etc. to prepare its economy for the future.

Regarding corruption, there is the option to now build the Forbidden Palace. This would require us to get a Great Leader later to move our Palace to the new continent. But I'm not at all sure, that this is the right way.:confused:

I would prepare to have 3-5 caravels with settlers, workers, units ready to send out, once navigation or magnetism is researched..

IMHO we should switch to monarchy real soon, work on our happiness and then go directly to democracy.

Most recent save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xeres,_230_AD.SAV.zip)

I would argue that going through anarchy to become a monarchy, and then staying in that government until democracy is researched - then undergoing a second round of anarchy - isn't nearly as productive as going directly from despotism to republic, and staying there.

On the other hand, I couldn't agree more that there is no point to exploring the new hemisphere until you are ready to colonize, and that point won't come until you find a resource there that you don't have at home.

Originally posted by Txurce
I would argue that going through anarchy to become a monarchy, and then staying in that government until democracy is researched - then undergoing a second round of anarchy - isn't nearly as productive as going directly from despotism to republic, and staying there.
I fully agree. But what, if it takes the AIs 10, 20, ... turns to research republic? Is it your experience, that this will not happen?

Originally posted by tao

I fully agree. But what, if it takes the AIs 10, 20, ... turns to research republic? Is it your experience, that this will not happen?

That's what happened to me when I tried it that way! They all had gone for like feudalism, chivalry, engineering, and I don't remember what, but I was up to like 15 or 20 turns past the end of the GA and still none of the AI civs had republic for me to buy. It got very frustrating because corruption and waste were so high that only the cities closest to the capital were producing anything even with courthouses.

What do you think of the strategy of going straight for monarchy when the game first starts and switching very early when you are still relatively small and the anarchy doesn't hurt you so much?

There have been games where I've waited longer than I wanted for the AI to research republic, but then I only blame myself for trusting them to do my work. Generally, if no one has researched republic by the time I'm ready for it, then I do it myself. If I'm the first, I reap the benefits of trading it. And if someone beats me to it, there's no big downside.

Keep in mind that my goal in every game is to win by my chosen victory condition (and with whatever predetermined limitations, like city number) as soon as possible. As a result, if playing on monarch, I usually do my own research, and reach the top of the heap fairly early in the Middle Ages. Waiting for the AI might be a more efficient strategy - I'm not sure - but it only hinders my goals. On emperor level, the AI is more likely to have researched republic when you want it, and there's more reason to let them do the research work, so it's less of an issue. And on deity, of course, you don't need to worry about waiting for the AI - figuring out how to hang on at the tail-end of the tech race is the real issue!

Republic can be researched about as quickly as monarchy, so I skip monarchy unless I'm either a religious civ, or planning to win by domination. The only caveat to switching to republic straight from despotism is that if you don't have enough temples and marketplaces in place, you won't be able to reap its benefits.

I took a look at the 150bc game and here is what I would have done...

Stay at war with Babylon because they took Ur over next turn anyway and it is now a size 1. Now you can raze the city and build a new one where you want. Kept 2 settlers in production (already had one settler unit). Would have attacked and razed Akkad and saved that galley to take over last Bab city on island (take over). Then used 3 settlers to fill in the gaps and plan on a cultural take over of the Roman and Egyptian cities and kept other civs happy (big meani). After war would have changed right to monarchy (bad corruption) and then built temples and libraries. Plus I would have changed the pathetic lighthouse to hanging gardens (aw, aren't they beautiful!). Then make Democracy and Caravel number one on the tech goal list. I would save all that bloody war for that tempting island.
That's my 2 cents.

heikeott, did you or someone else want to take a stab at this interesting game of events? If not than I have a few ideas for the next 20. I will give it a day and see.:mischief:

Thanks for the comment Tao.

Yes I missed the trick of demanding Sammara and establishing embassies with everyone. What do you do if the great wonder is not being built in the capital ?

In an earier run through this game (where I tried to move the capital) a got two galleys to the resource continent and one survived the barbarian galleys to explore. While it would reveal no resources yet I consider it would help it I could identify in advance a few good spots to build cities, on smaller island to avoid mass attack by barbarians or controlling choke points. The down side I found is I could no longer trade maps - no point in giving away you 'edge'.

In regard to n8mac's comments

Is there any strategy value to holding Samarra other than wiping out the Babelonians ? One more city will push us towards the corruption limits and cities at the extremes are already suffering (better government will help of course) and we need some cities on the new continent.

In fact do we need to consider (later on) abandoning some 'home' cities to avoid corruption problems on the new continent or will the forbidden palace take care of this ? The key resources may be spread about so a good central location will be key I imagine.

Great lighthouse is acheivable and will again give an edge in the first rush to the resource continent. Since I'm at work I can't check if the tech for ocean crossing invalidates the Gt Lhs ? in which case forget the Gt Lhs - unless you think my early high-risk crossing with galleys (they have no other use exploration wise and we don't want to invade the other islands do we) will give an edge. Get trade going first though I think.

Heikeott - Go for it !

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
What do you do if the great wonder is not being built in the capital ? Most wonder builds were in the capitals. Otherwise, you have to make an educated guess, based on terrain surrounding the cities, number of citizens, etc.

In an earier run through this game (where I tried to move the capital) a got two galleys to the resource continent and one survived the barbarian galleys to explore. While it would reveal no resources yet I consider it would help it I could identify in advance a few good spots to build cities, on smaller island to avoid mass attack by barbarians or controlling choke points.I would aim for establishing a city on the main land, stuffed by both defensive and offensive units. Let the barbarians come to promote most of your units to elite status. Once the other civs arrive, start a nice little war and fish for a Great Leader to build your Forbidden Palace. Succeed, and own the New World. :D

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
In regard to n8mac's comments

Is there any strategy value to holding Samarra other than wiping out the Babelonians ? One more city will push us towards the corruption limits and cities at the extremes are already suffering (better government will help of course) and we need some cities on the new continent. I would not overvalue the corruption increase. The nice point on Samarra is, that the AIs cannot conquer it. You build it up to at least size 6 (wltkd) and produce some culture and lots of bombardment units and ships. Beautiful to control this part of the see. And since you have plenty of time and need not hurry any improvement, it will give a surplus also.
In fact do we need to consider (later on) abandoning some 'home' cities to avoid corruption problems on the new continent or will the forbidden palace take care of this ? The key resources may be spread about so a good central location will be key I imagine.
Forbidden Palace will take care. Abandoning cities on the other continent will not really help, because the distance part of corruption is too big. And we want it mostly for the resources; our homeland cities will be strong in production.

PS: In discussing this game, my anticipation for progress in my own ongoing emperor version is rising. :)

Hi everybody!

A few days ago I downloaded the saved game at 150 BC and have played it a few different ways. This last run I tried it MY way - that is to say, I ignored most of the good advice I've received here, pretended the old despot had just died of jungle rot or something, and proceeded to re-organize Persia to MY liking.

So, to make a long story relatively short, I did what was necessary to remove everyone except me from what *I* considered to be my territory, even though it meant wars with 2 or 3 civs who tried to gain a foothold the minute I destroyed a city. (They DO cheat, don't they??) I brokered techs, went to republic as soon as I could, and aimed my research straight at magnetism while building a solid infrastructure (temple, library, marketplace, bank, university, granary, etc.)

I moved my capital to Ellipi and set Persepolis up to build wonders, but later Susa got a Coal Plant and took over as the top building city. I missed several wonders but got Bach's and Newton's, then missed Smith's and had to build Wall St. instead. Got TOE and the freebies which I did NOT broker and got ahead of the AI's on the refining/steel/combustion track, and bought what I'd missed (printing press, military tradition, etc.)

In the meantime I built galleons and sent them to the southernmost portion of the resource continent. Got there ahead of the CPs, they were still playing with caravels. Built 3 towns and waiting 60+ turns for FP to be built when Egypt tried to plant a city in on me. Declared war and destroyed their little town, unexpectedly got a leader in the process. YES!! Got the FP! Yeehaw! Made peace with Egypt, no prob after a couple of tries, throw 'em a lux and they're happy.

Now am ahead of ALL the CPs in tech at least by one, and ahead of some by 3 or 4 techs. Susa can build faster than any of their citites, and Persepolis is a good science city if not a great one. I have resources coming out of my ears. I'm thinking I'm all set to win and maybe I'm not so bad at this after all, heck I never even played a game at Regent level before...

They're fighting their little wars, which I politely ignore, but they keep getting madder and madder at me because I won't enter any alliances or MPPs. Finally I agree to join Greece (supposedly the victim of an unprovoked attack and my best tech trading partner) in an alliance against India. No big deal I figure since Indian territory is relatively far from me and India is the furthest behind in tech. Greece and India make peace but I am left at war with India. I'm temporarily ignoring that situation, figuring Gandhi will come around and ask me for peace pretty soon ...

Mind you, I've had railroad for some time, so a few turns earlier when Egypt dropped a rifleman in near a city that had just contributed an infantry to the New World and had only an immortal defending it while a new infantry was being built, I wasn't worried. I have infantry and railroads! Unpark an infantry unit and send it around by railroad to the threatened city, then attack the intruder! Hmm. I was a bit puzzled when it took FOUR infantry units to kill the rifleman even though I was fighting out of MY size 12 city and he was in my territory, but I blew it off as an anomaly.

Now back to the present ... out of nowhere, over in the "New World", an Indian frigate shows up and starts bombarding my FP city. It destroys my temple! Hey! Now I am MAD - and I remember that earlier just for intimidation purposes I had build a battleship that's floating around somewhere trying to impress the CPs, and I have a couple of destroyers in production... no peace for India, I am going to make them SO sorry ...

Suddenly, I am in serious trouble. My infantry are having trouble with Indian spearmen, for crying out loud, and Indian FRIGATES and IRONCLADS are sinking my battleships and destroyers? Excuse me, what is wrong with this picture???? I realize at regent level the AI might get some combat advantages, but this is ridiculous. A battleship is the biggest and baddest "boat" you can get, isn't it?? If his Ironclads can sink my veteran battleships every darn tootin' time, I don't want to think about what will happen when HE has modern vessels. And nearly every time *I* try bombardment I get a message that says "artillery bombardment has failed" or something like that, but every time HE does it I lose an improvement or have a unit seriously damaged. Is it possible to win this or should I try to make peace and re-think my strategy? How do you beat the AI at this level if they have such huge combat bonuses that a seriously inferior unit can beat my best? Some of you warmongers out there, HELP!! :cry:

Originally posted by n8mac
Stay at war with Babylon because they took Ur over next turn anyway and it is now a size 1.

I did that too, and also took Samarra by conquest, but Samarra flipped later even though it had temple and library. Too close to Egypt's capital maybe? So in MY game, Samarra ended up being worthless because it flipped. :p

And I also established embassies with everyone, but it didn't help me a whole lot, I don't think. Most of them ended up being FURIOUS with me anyway after I was done kicking everyone off of my turf.

heikeott, did you or someone else want to take a stab at this interesting game of events? If not than I have a few ideas for the next 20. I will give it a day and see.:mischief:

As you will see if you read my previous post, I've played way ahead on my own "version" of the game, and not sure I could pick it up at where the SG is at and play it fairly now - a matter of knowing too much? :rolleyes:

And speaking of cheating, the AIs really do cheat, don't they?? At the northern tip of the southernmost island in the New World, there are three or 4 tiles of jungle that form sort of an isthmus...
I was protecting most of the land in the area fairly well either with boundaries or units, but neglected those jungle tiles because I perceived them as worthless. Imagine my surprise when Rome came along and founded a town there.. until I completed replaceable parts the next turn and saw a rubber resource pop up right there. Now, how did he know that? Rome is 2 or 3 techs behind me and certainly does NOT have RP yet!

I also notice that they are hesitant about setting foot on the new lands while the barbarians are there, but the minute I get the barbarians cleared out so that I can bring my settlers in, they start dropping off 1 settler with 1 defensive unit anywhere that I don't happen to be covering at the moment. Now, since I'm refusing to trade maps while in my expansion phase and their units were nowhere around until the sudden swoop-in and drop off, how the heck did they know exactly when I finally got all the $#%* barbarians killed off?? NO FAIR!! :mad:

Originally posted by heikeott


Mind you, I've had railroad for some time, so a few turns earlier when Egypt dropped a rifleman in near a city that had just contributed an infantry to the New World and had only an immortal defending it while a new infantry was being built, I wasn't worried. I have infantry and railroads! Unpark an infantry unit and send it around by railroad to the threatened city, then attack the intruder! Hmm. I was a bit puzzled when it took FOUR infantry units to kill the rifleman even though I was fighting out of MY size 12 city and he was in my territory, but I blew it off as an anomaly.

City bonuses are only for defense, not offense. What type of terrain was the rifleman on ... grassland, hill, or mountain? Hills and mountains will give the rifleman defense bonuses. Also, remember, an infantry has an attack value of 6 v. a rifleman's defense value of 6 - when you throw in "random seed," its possible for this to happen. Picture an elite soldier going up against 4 grunts who happen to have a slightly newer gun.

It sounds like you might be entering conflicts under prepared, picking fights because another civ established a city near you might be hasty. If you've got an FP near it, it might very well flip in the near future. Concerning your battleships and destroyers, are they at full strength and getting destryed by frigates and ironclads? Or, are they wounded, then getting beat?

Greece dragged me into war with India via an alliance which I didn't take too seriously (just placating Greece) but then India shows up with naval units and starts bombarding me! So I go after his Ironclads and Frigates in neutral waters (ocean, etc.) with freshly built veteran destroyers and battleships, and my units are getting sunk every time! You should have seen my face change.. from anticipation and satisfaction when my big, mean, green battleship caught up with his ironclad, to shock when the one little ironclad, all by itself, SUNK my battleship!! Then the turn after that a frigate ran across my newly built destroyer that was headed out to protect the FP city, and the frigate sunk my destroyer! :cry:

Heikeott, the AI "cheating" is limited to an awareness of future resources and available space to settle, regardless of their maps or line-of-sight.

My name is Heike Ott.

On an international forum, the user id "heike" is fairly likely to be taken, as it is a not terribly uncommon name in Germany.

So to be unique I set my user id to my first and last name run together, heikeott..

But I would sure appreciate it if you-all would call me Heike, which is my name and how I sign my posts when I remember.

A silly little thing, I know, but it bugs me. I guess it was a mistake to not set my userid to something I would like to be called, but I thought it was just for logging in, I didn't realize it would become my "name" here!

Thanks,
Heike
:rant:

Originally posted by Txurce
the AI "cheating" is limited to an awareness of future resources and available space to settle, regardless of their maps or line-of-sight.

Maybe so, but this is ridiculous. Something is wrong. Maybe my game is not working right??? I just lost a veteran TANK to a rifleman!!!!!!

Surely that is outside the bounds of what's normal or possible?

Heike

Originally posted by heikeott

Surely that is outside the bounds of what's normal or possible?

Yes, it's pretty normal, and definately possible. There are stories of Spearmen defeating Tanks, and although rare, anything is possible, basically. Riflemen, therefore, have a pretty good chance of defeating a tank. There's a combat calc somewhere around here, I'll include the link as soon as I find it...

EDIT: Ahh, yes, here it is.

Click here for the online version of the combat calc. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html)

Heike, the odds of your rolling snake-eyes or boxcars with dice is 1:36, and yet people roll them all the time. I don't know what the odds are of a rifleman beating a tank, but I assume you see my point. It's a matter of odds, not cheating or unfairness.

Remember Sgt. York! ;)

Thank you all for your advice and links. III does not quite work the way II did, does it? Seems like in II superior units could wipe out huge numbers of inferior ones, but perhaps that had something to do with the II method of battle (in that if you destroyed one unit in a square, you destroyed them all). In II I avoided putting more than one unit in the same square, but I now I see where the "stack" strategy is coming from and I suppose that is what I need to change to also.

It is much harder to go out and destroy the world than it is to defend, isn't it? I am noticing that when I fortify and let THEM attack ME, the results are more as I expected. Of course to me that is frustrating and annoying because in the meantime they are running around pillaging my improvements and keeping my workers from working. I want to go out and kick their collective you-know-whats and make them sorry they ever messed with me (after they've started it, of course!), but that is not so easy to do. :(

In the meantime the Chinese have destroyed the Greeks and I pulled Japan and Egypt into alliances with me by giving them gold. After a few years of world war, so to speak, during which time nobody really had the time and resources to just pick on me like they'd been doing, peace was achieved all around. I've lost a couple of cities and have new ones much too close to me for comfort, but maybe they will flip later on as my FP is out that direction. I worry about China which is now quite large - one of the AI's may get enough territory to win by domination. I could still win either by S/R, points, or culture.

Do you care to hear the outcome or would you rather I shut up and keep my games to myself?

Heike

250 - Switched to monarchy, reorganized troops and cities. Changed Pasargadae to Great Library.

290 - Made peace w/Babylon.

320 - Greece declared war w/Egypt. Persepolis builds library. Moved troops to mountain in the northwest (11 immortals, 2 horseman).

330 - Traded world maps w/India. Traded Territory maps with most other civs along the way.

350 - Persepolis builds settler.

380 - Built new city - Hamadan to the southwest.

410 - Discovered theology, started printing press. Ellipi built courthouse, starts palace.

420 - Susa builds courthouse, starts Sistine Chapel. Built embassy w/Egypt.

430 - Greece and Egypt sign peace treaty.

Notes:
I went ahead 3 turns and we do build Great Library. We have a tech dilema. Our goal is to reach the resource island which requires either navigation or magnetism. To get to those we need to research education which in turn obseletes the Great Library. I put research on printing press to give the Great Library a chance to work. Then we can research education to get to both democracy and navigation. Printing press is required to get to democracy anyway.

To many other civs are building Sun Tzu so I wouldn't bother with it (F7 wonder view). Susa should get Sistine Chapel since we started first. Another option in the tech is to research invention which allows for Leonardo's shop.

All the workers around Samaria are intended to irrigate to the east.

I started the palace in Ellipi since it is in the middle but it is corrupted and will take a while. Is this a good long term move? Tao? Dojoboy?

Persia 440 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,_440_AD.SAV.zip)

If I remeber correctly, I advised against building GLib. Now we experience first hand, that it is nearly obsolete by the time we get it.

Stating that we get Sistine "because we started it first" is a somewhat optimistic view. Other civs will cascade from Sun Tzu to Sistine. Did we start Sistine, before they started Sun Tzu? Did we check/guess/analyze the probable production power of the competing cities? Would it be better to let GLib go and aim at either Sun Tzu(?) or Sistine?

I have to agree with Tao, not only does the GL not last long, in this game we are ahead so will get little from it.

I would switch science to Education and push the sistine chapel as hard as possible, i.e. build in most productive city, feed in extra workers if happiness permits. We might even get to Education before another AI Civ gets Theology (takes two Civs for GL to work) - need to check the numbers.

Tao, I don't know how to estimate the AIs state of research. Can/Should we trade Theology around all the AIs as soon as the GL is build rather than wait for GL builder to grab it and sell it on ? If we check the Ai with the GL every turn to see when the grab Theology do we have the opportunity to trade before that AI ?

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
Tao, I don't know how to estimate the AIs state of research.Regrettably, neither do I.
Can/Should we trade Theology around all the AIs as soon as the GL is build rather than wait for GL builder to grab it and sell it on ?Depends. If we can cash a lot, yes. If we have a large tech lead, and the AIs don't want to shell out significant money, I would not.If we check the Ai with the GL every turn to see when the grab Theology do we have the opportunity to trade before that AI ? I would suppose the GLib AI to trade techs it acquires to many (not all) other AIs the same turn; i.e. we loose trade opportunities.

Regarding your comment if we check the Ai with the GL every turn let me tell you that by checking each civ each turn and trading maps, the human player[list=a] knows what is going on in the world
can usually net some gold from map trading
improves diplomatic relations
[/list=a] OTOH, you may regard it as too tedious for your gameplay .....

If you follow Tao's worthwhile advice to contact each civ every turn, then it's pretty easy to estimate the leading AI research rate. Just keep track of when they discover something, and then when they discover the next one. Since the AI often trades a tech around before you even know it's been researched, it's usually hard to know precisely what each civ's research rate is. But what's important is the leading rate. One additional benefit of tracking the AI's research rate like this is that it takes some of the guesswork out of deciding when to research an unpopular branch, and all of the guesswork as to when you're better off buying tech rather than researching it yourself.

I'm in for the next 20 turns; play and post soon.

Preturn - micromanaged for wltkd; Map tax = 41 gold; everyone is furious w/ us.

450 AD - Altered some mines for irrigation; Map tax = 7 gold.

460 AD - ZZZ

470 AD - Pasargadae b GL; Arbela b courthouse

480 AD - Republic & Engineering dained thru GL; Persian people revolt.

490 AD - Gain chivalry thru GL; trade theology to Egypt (wm, 20 gpt, & 70 gold) and to India (15 gpt & 50 gold).

500 AD - ZZZ

510 AD - ZZZ

520 AD - Persian Republic established; change Ellipi to Forbidden Palace (less time and better balance, no need to build the FP on the larger landmass where we'll likely have fewer cities - this continent is our best production source); rush harbor in Nineveh to establish trade deals.

530 AD - Nineveh b harbor; Sidon b pikeman; established embassy w/ India; trade gems & incense to Greece for wine.

540 AD - ZZZ

550 AD - Map tax = 1 gold.

560 AD - Antioch b library.

570 AD - ZZZ

580 AD - Trade dye to India for 8 gpt.

590 AD - Researched Printing Press, set to invention.

600 AD - Bactra b temple.

610 AD - Pasargadae b aqueduct; Gordium b courthouse; Samaria b courthouse.

620 AD - Rush temple in Tyre.

630 AD - Gain Invention thru GL, set to gunpowder; El-Armana b temple; Tyre b temple.

640 AD - Sardis b temple; Trads set up w/ Egypt (Gems for 4 gpt, incense for 4 gpt, and furs for 5 gpt; Map tax = 1 gold.

Summary: Everyone is still annoyed to furious w/ us. We must've really broken some deals early on - not helpful now. Sliders set at 9.0.1, earning 131 gpt. We need to rush temples, marketplaces, and granaries ASAP! The FP is 7 turns away from completion in Ellipi. We are currently building Sistine Chapel, but likely will not get it (can switch to ST or LW). Some tech trade deals will expire soon w/ Egypt and India.

Save file. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/djb-3,640AD.SAV.zip)

Preface: I start worrying that whenever I make my comments, this stops the game. ;) Please don't shy away, but accept my compliments for taking the initiative for (hopefully) better play in the future.

On dojoboy's turn: The issue of GLib has been discussed before. I know dojoboy likes it and it was his right to build it.

Building courthouses in Arbela and Gordium was IMHO a waste of money. With the FP coming up, they are not necessary. It would have been much much better to spend the shields on aqueduct/marketplace.

I don't see a strategy in our research effort. Why did we build the library in Antioch before the marketplace, if we do only minimum research? Bad.

And now, let the criticism really start! ;) Dojoboy, I know you know better. Let's assume you just wanted to give me the opportunity to rant and the others the opportunity to learn. City management is abysmal. :spank:

Stop everybody. Dont't read on. Look thru all the cities and think about what's worth improving. Think again. Write it down.

Now compare your notes on what I say. Maybe you found some of the points, maybe all, may even more. :yeah:

Persepolis has a scientist. Bad. Your capital can afford some unhappiness without adopting corruption.

Sardis will want to grow in 8 turns, but needs 50 turns for aqueduct. Hire an entertainer, start wltkd, boost productivity by reducing corruption.

Pasargadae builds a temple. Very bad. Build market instead.

Nineveh produces 15 food. Bad. Don't work fish, work mine and build aqueduct in 7 instead of 9 turns. Very bad: we don't need an entertainer. Make him a scientist (instead of the Persepolis guy.)

Susa will never get a wonder, because it will grow into unhappiness. It needs a market first.

Arbela has an unneeded entertainer. Bad. Let him collect taxes.

Ellipi: see Arbela.

Tarsus: see Arbela

Hamadan: I would rearrange the mine from Pasargadae to Hamadan. Pasargadae will build temple in 3 instead of 2 turns, but Hamadan will finish in 6 instead of 12 turns.

El-Amarna: I would build market before granary to keep wltkd once we grow to size 6+. Granary iafterwards is a good idea, because we are on a river and have a very good food situation.

Gordium: see Arbela.

Bactra: working fish is useless; create taxman for wltkd.

Tyre is pop 6, has no aqueduct but builds granary??? very very bad. It also needs an entertainer.

Babylon: Very bad. Make entertainer into taxman. Work mined tile to build aqueduct 1 turn faster.

520 AD :change Ellipi to Forbidden Palace (less time and better balance, no need to build the FP on the larger landmass where we'll likely have fewer cities What makes you assume this? We should try to be the first to mass-invade the new continent. We know about its importance, the AI doesn't. We could build a city in the middle of it and use a Great Leader to rush a palace. Then we can grow a completely new power center, which might well rival our old core.

I disagree about the need for a major power center on the new continent. All you need from there are resources - not cities. Expanding there is much more difficult, because it's farther away. It's much more efficient to wait and see what you need there, and then take it. An FP on the old continent will pay immediate dividends.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tao
On dojoboy's turn: The issue of GLib has been discussed before. I know dojoboy likes it and it was his right to build it.

If you remember, the GL was 2-3 turns from completion. I could've switched to Sun Tzu's, but we're heading for space; free techs helped and allowed us to drop research reates for an increase of gpt. I agree, the GL came a little late, but I believe the best decision, when I picked up the game, was to finish it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tao
And now, let the criticism really start! ;) Dojoboy, I know you know better. Let's assume you just wanted to give me the opportunity to rant and the others the opportunity to learn. City management is abysmal. :spank:


That's my boy! ;) Hey, one SG w/ you doesn't make me a taoist over night. Many of the infrastructures built on my turns were near completion, so I kept them (may not be a good reason, but just the same). The scientist was in Persepolis to keep our tech rate moving 1 "beaker" / turn. Understand, I inherited much.

Earlier you guys were urging me to take a shot - I hope you won't regret it!

640AD -- micromanaged production & city moods.
650AD -- Arbela and Tarsus completes aqueducts, start marketplaces. Advised Romans are building Leo's. Pliny completes history; most powerful listed as follows: 1 Persians, 2 Greeks, 3 Romans, 4 Indians, 5 Chinese, 6 Japanese, 7 Egyptians, 8 Babylonians. Sent a few immortals from the stack of doom to lounge on the hill overlooking Ravenna.
660AD -- Forest near Antioch harvested. Persepolis finishes Cathedral, set to Leo's - I always try to get that one. Pasarg. completes temple starts marketplace. Advised Indians are building Leo's.
670AD -- Several cities expand. Advised Elephantine has completed Sun Tzu's. Everybody & their brother now building Sistine & Leo's.
680AD -- traded Cleo Education for Printing Press, straight up. Then sold PP to everyone who didn't have it. :D
690AD -- Babylon finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace.
700AD -- Antioch completes marketplace, starts granary. Hamadan completes temple, starts aqueduct.
710AD -- Ellipi completes FP, starts marketplace rather than aqueduct because needs happiness adjustment before further growth.
720AD -- Nineveh completes aqueduct, starts marketplace.
730AD -- bought gunpowder from India for 380 gold (best deal), sold or traded to everyone who didn't have it. Discovered saltpeter in desert N of Arbela. Start researching banking as AI usually doesn't IMO.
740AD -- Egypt wants to trade WMs - I agree. Pasarg. completes marketplace, begins harbor. Ellipi expands. El-Amarna finishes granary, starts marketplace.
750AD -- Several cities expand. Samaria builds marketplace, starts aqueduct. Citizens expand palace. Advised Delhi completed Sistine. :eek: Susa would finish Leo's in 20 turns as opposed to 27 for Persep, so switch Susa to Leo and build University in Persepolis. Micromanage citizen moods in several cities.
760AD -- Persepolis completes Univ, make 1 unhappy worker a scientist for WLTKD. Start colosseum. Gordium builds marketplace and they are all happy now - start aqueduct. Checked in with all civs & traded or gave map. No new techs.
770AD -- Have to renegotiate with Greece for wines. Gave gems + incense + 20g. Arbela completes marketplace, begins granary. Antioch finishes granary, starts colosseum. Advised Athens completes Leo. :( :o :mad: :eek: Checked in with all civs but no new techs & nothing to switch to. Set Susa to build Cathedral.
780AD -- Sidon builds temple, still pretty corrupt so start courthouse.
790AD -- Susa builds cathedral, adjust production to food & start granary. Tarsus finishes marketplace, about to run out of land tiles to work so start harbor. Bactra builds marketplace, starts aqueduct. Road to saltpeter completed.
800AD -- busy, busy, busy...
810AD -- Japan trades WM. Sardis completes aqueduct, starts marketplace. Pasarg. builds harbor, starts granary. Ellipi builds marketplace, begins aqueduct.
820AD -- Traded or sold WM to all civs. Nobody's polite yet, what did we DO?? Noticed that Babs need horses but no trade route yet. India has Chemistry will sell for 1460g - that's a bit steep isn't it? will wait...
830AD -- Babylon completes marketplace, still corruption starts courthouse. Arbela finishes granary starts musketman.
840AD -- Persepolis completes colosseum, starts musketman. Susa finishes granary, starts marketplace. El-Amarna builds marketplace, starts courthouse.
Game Saved.

I didn't do anything really critical, except miss getting Leo, but I think that was already missed when I picked up the game. I think maybe I managed not to make any big mistakes that will hurt anyone down the road, and I did my part to try to improve the other civs' attitudes towards us and keep the techs traded up.

Heike
Umm.. will upload file, even after zip too big to attach. Don't know how to link to it? will upload as Xerxes 840AD.sav.zip.

Heike, look here to upload files larger than 100kb. How is your husband doing? Hope well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41653

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Xerxes,_840_AD.SAV.zip)

Well, I did that, but I still am having trouble making a link to it. There is nowhere to click on the whole thing, only one part or the other. Anyway, it IS there in the uploads3 folder called Xerxes, 840 AD.SAV.zip.

Heike

I don't understand what you mean. The link, you made, worked for me.

The download of Heike's file was possible, but I couldn't open the file after downloading with Mozilla, definitely the browser of choice for CFC, because you can open all the different topics in tabs .:cool:
Regrettably ;) the file could be opened, when IE :satan: was used for downloading. :confused:
Best to use .sit or .zip.:goodjob:

Okay, I'm scratching my head. Maybe I should translate that back to German and see if it reads any better?? :lol:

I DID zip it, sorry I don't have Mozilla. Once I have zipped the file, it shouldn't matter what application I use to upload it? It's all the same file! I don't usually use IE, but last night I couldn't get Safari, or Netscape, or Omniweb to download the file last night, so I still had IE open when I went to upload the save.

So are you saying you could, or could not, open the save? Do you need me to email it to you after I get home this evening?

PS Mozilla is not the only browser that has tabbing! Surely Safari will have it before long in one of the updates, although I am not sure why you think it's so necessary.

Edited: forgot which thread I was in & had to fix file references.

So, are we stalled again, or are you all so horrified by my 20 turns that you are "speechless" ??? :hmm:

Tao, Dojo, no comments??? I've been waiting for the :spank: ...

I'll give it a go over the weekend.

Thoughts - I have had a look at the resource continent (+ several smaller islands) by turning off the fogofwar feature. Is this regarded as cheating in an essentially training OSG ? ;)

It doesn't show the hidden resources but I can guess oil in the dessert and rubber in the jungles. Where is aluminum & uranium generally found ? The second tip off is when the AI builds a city in a seemingly ?stupid? location - will placing a city nearby and load in culture to achieve a flip work or do we wait for an opportunity to conquer with local forces kept near (in city with road towards target).

It will take a sizable armada to grab many of the best locations - we should start producing / holding settlers in 'factory' cities (or calculate when to switch production in lots of cities) and calculate how many galleons we need. Do we need more harbour cities ? Workers we have but more can be used to accelerate pop growth and build roads to resources and link cities in main landmass.

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
I have had a look at the resource continent (+ several smaller islands) by turning off the fogofwar feature. Is this regarded as cheating in an essentially training OSG ? ;)



Cheating? Yes, I would say so, but not punishable by death. ;) As long as you don't give it away, I think its fine - for yourself. I don't see OSG's as trainers, but that's not to say learning doesn't take place.

Only doing what the AIs seem to do.;) - it was the idea behind risking an early crossing with Galleys to get an early look - 2nd thoughts not a bad idea but leave it to < 20 turns before magnetism so you don't have to stop trading maps.

Anyway if I complete the next round tonight it will be up to someone else to find good city locations over the next 20 turns - so no mega advantage. The Caravels (min 2) will hopefully be in place at the edge of the ocean NE, NW, SE & SW when Magnetism is researched so we should get there first (even with the Caravel's 3 tiles / turn - we lose Gt L :( rather than wait for Galleons.

I found six sites with min. five resources each so it is worth looking very carefully. However they are not surprisingly spead out so a strategy to use them would have to be sea trade based (rush harbours), push out 1 / 2 cities to grab land and act as a buffer zone to the each core city. After you deal with the barbarian hordes of course. :D

Building a single large colony is not so advantageous without the FP.

There are two logical approaches toward garnering needed resources on the new hemisphere: settle as much of it as possible, or wait until the resources you need are visible, then take them. The second approach is much, much easier. You're either there ahead of the AI, or you capture their obviously isolated resource cities.

Originally posted by heikeott
Tao, Dojo, no comments???
You ask it, you get it. :) I was busy doing GOTM9.

On a global scale, I miss a clear mission statement at both the begin and end of your turn: What did you want to accomplish? What road do you want the next player to follow?

When do we want to start researching? This clearly should influence, whether we build libraries/universities or not(yet).

You have accumulated a large amount of cash. (What's the female equivalent of a Dagobert? ;) ) Could you give a reason, why you didn't establish embassies with all civs? Why you didn't trade for the "missing techs"?

Where are the designated cities (and pre-builds) for Copernicus', Magellan's, Newton's?

We know about the importance of getting to the other continent. Do we have a plan when/where to build/upgrade ships (harbours!) and expedition force (settlers, defenders, attackers)?

Do we have a plan, how to settle the continent? Txurce gave two possibilities. I played the map on emperor and did it like this: build beachhead, let barbs promote units to elite, build city in central strategic location, make war to AI(s), generate leader, build FP (we would have to move our Palace; prepare for it!), and the new continent became a power center, allowing me an easy conquest victory. :goodjob: :D

Now let me raise some details:

All cities stalled at size 6 should hurry aqueduct. I would have hurried also some granaries.

Persepolis; we research at 10%, therefore researcher is wasted. Note that the capital can easily bear some unhappines without negative effects.

Sardis: market should have been before aqueduct.

Susa: next player should mm to coincide pop growth with market

Arbela; do we need the musket? what for? or should we build cathedral?

I would distribute the unit stack near Samaria to 2-3 locations to faster extinguish possible invadors.

Antioch: why do we build colosseum and not cathedral? maybe we should irrigate mined grassland and mine mountain?

Sidon needs wltkd, not courthouse.

Ellipi has FP, and therefore market was NOT needed before aqueduct. Why did't you hurry the aqueduct?

Tarsus: I would build cathedral first. Location is not very good for harbour.

Hamadan has plenty of food. I would mine the irrigation.

El-Amarna is 5 tiles from FP; I question the value of a courthouse.

Gordium: mm for more shields, less food. Better: hurry aqueduct.

Never give maps for free, always ask for exchange.

840 AD to 1030 AD

Well here is my take on the preparation for invasion. Hope you don't think its too long.

Tried to practice some of the tips being offered (plus those in War Acadamy) but will be far from perfect. Long term Strategy is to place min. six caravels (Settler + Worker + Musketman / Knight) at points nearest to six key sites on resource continent & islands. As soon as trade for Magnetism move Caravels across ocean (slower due to loss of Gt Lighthouse) and start search for good city sites with multi-resources. Repeat in second wave to lesser sites with upgraded Galleons with knights / musketmen / workers - with Frigates to defend. Build up resource rich sites (trade with rushed harbour), add 1/2 outlying cities and await arrival of later resources to be grabbed from other Civs. Note odd locations of AI cities, e.g. dessert / jungle - sure sign of future oil / rubber resources. This will take several 20 turn sessions.

840 AD - Switch Persep. to harbour (for fast production of ships) and emphasis resources over food as getting near 12 limit. Switch Antioch to University (don?t need happiness as city is at 6 pop with WLTK - use as unit factory). Switch Tyre to Cathedral (get happiness + WLTK to increase production then develop). Switch El-Amorna to Library to improve culture (corruption not bad so Courthouse not urgent). Unstack immortals from mountaintop and move to border with Revenna and locations for later pickup by ships. Move one horsemen to cover tiles outside our borders (stop landings) and to city with baracks for future upgrade to knights / cavalry.

850 AD - Reallocate workers.

860 AD - Pasarg. builds Granary - set for Library. Antioch gets University, set for Knight . Tarsus builds Harbour - set for settler (to build up colonists). Samaria produced Aquaduct, set for Library. Upgrade units in Antioch & Susa (Horse > Knight, Pike > Musketman) - continue to recycle units thought barracks cities.
Trade India WM + 480 g for Astronomy. Trade Astronomy to Japan for WM + 20 gold & trade Babylon Engineering for 1gpt + 20 g .

870 AD - Continue unit upgrades.

880 AD - Neveha produces Marketplace, set to Caravel, El Amarna produces Library, set to Cathedral - create entertainer to keep WLTK going. Trade terratory maps with Japanese & Indians for a few gold - keep them happy. Others want 550 g for Chemistry - wait. Palace improved by happy populace.

890 AD - Persep produces Harbour, set Caravel. Pasag. produces Library, set to Caravel. Ellipi producesa Aquaduct, set to Granary. Gordium produces Aquaduct, set to Caravel. Samaria produces Library, set to Barracks for upgrade in N of continent. AIs pursuing JS Bach.
Trade Furs to Greece for 8 gpt.

900 AD - Move Galley to Tarsus for upgrade.

910 AD - Ellipi produces Granary, set to Cathedral. Hamadam produces Aquaduct, set to Cathedral. Load Settler + musketman on Caravel. in Tarsus. Hurry Caravel in Gordium (need more shipping in East).

920 AD - Rome tries to trade Music Theory for Astronomy, offer 300 gold - accepted - Aghhh Mistake. Babylon produces Courthouse, set to Cathedral. Persep produces Caravel, set to Caravel (need min of six). Pasarg. builds Caravel , set to Settler. Susa produces Marketplace, set to Settler. Antioch produces Knight, set to Knight. Gordium produces (rushed) Caravel, set to Caravel. Bacrta produces Aquaduct, set to Settler. Palace improved again !

Increase science to get Banking in 4 turns. Buy Banking from Greeks for WM + 8 gold ! Switch science to Economics to get John Smith?s (saves money).

930 AD - T10 - Neneveh completes Caravel, set to Caravel. Load up Caravels and sail to jump off points.

940 AD - Persep builds Caravel, set to Settler. Sardis produces Marketplace, set to Courthouse, Pasgar. builds Settler, set to Cathedral. Bacra builds Settler, set to Harbour. Continue loading Caravels.

950 AD - Tarsus produces Worker, set to Caravel, Gordium produces Caravel, set to Caravel. Samaria produces Settler, set to Bank.

960 AD - Confrontation with Egypt on the high seas, entered their territory - trade WMs. Persep. produces Settler, set to Bank. Continue loading up Caravels and pre-positioning them.

970 AD - Nineveh builds Caravel (rushed), set to Cathedral. Arbela builds Cathedral, set to Musketman. Antioch builds Knight, set to Knight.

980 AD - Several WLTKs end. Trade furs with Babylon for 30g. Major Civ?s unwilling to trade other luxuries.

990 AD - Discover Economics, go for Democracy. Sell Economics to India for Chemistry + 120G + WM. Buy Physics from Greece for Economics + 230g + WM. Buy Metalurgy from Egypt for Economics + 260 g + WM. Sell Economics to China for 60g + 1 gpt. Buy Magnetism from Japan for Economics + 530g + WM. Sell Magnetism to Egypt for 320g.

Set Science to 10% and Luxury to 20 %. Switch Persepolis to Adam Smith?s with micromanagement (MM) to generate max. resources (22). Rush Galleons in Tarsus, Gordium and Sidon. (MM for gold/food not resources - 1 turn only).

1000 AD - Move Caravels towards Resource Continent.

1010 AD - Galleons produced, Tarsus set to Frigate, Sidon to Settler, Gordium to Frigate. Load Galleons. MM El Armarna for food (1 turn from Cath). Trade Dyes to Japan for 1 gpt.

1020 AD - El-Almarma builds Cathedral, set to Bank. Start exploring new lands - initial landing may have to be on hill / mountain to deal with bards. before founding city ? Not my problem.

1030 AD - Further exploration.

File uploaded as Xerxes 1030 AD.SAV.ZIP

Future Science Strategy - Stay with Democracy or go for Theory of Gravity to get to Industrial Ages ? I think we buy ToG and switch to democracy after oil / rubber appear and are secured (may need war) then go for growth - wealth with Democracy.

Create and push settlers into Persepolis to shorten time to Adam Smith, a must have with our peaceful / trading (harbours in new cities) strategy ? No trading of maps from now till AIs have explored themselves. Rebuild home military.

Mistakes - among the many should have pre-built for Adam Smiths.

ENJOY

On a global scale, I miss a clear mission statement at both the begin and end of your turn: What did you want to accomplish? What road do you want the next player to follow?

I was building infrastructure. Unless we wanted to go to war imminently, not much else we could do. We are nowhere near the required techs to head for the other continent.

When do we want to start researching? This clearly should influence, whether we build libraries/universities or not(yet).
Don't ask ME. I would have been doing research from the beginning, but it was my understanding that that isn't practical at this level because you can't beat the AI, so we were buying and trading for tech. THAT's why I didn't build any libraries!! Why build libraries if we aren't researching?

You have accumulated a large amount of cash. Could you give a reason, why you didn't establish embassies with all civs? Why you didn't trade for the "missing techs"?
The cash is because science spending was set so low. What was I supposed to do with the money? I thought we were going to buy tech with it. I did buy whatever was available when I could, but the only tech anyone had for sale that I didn't get was Chemistry, and I stated that I didn't get it because it was too expensive (I thought). It was near the end of my 20 and I didn't think much would be lost if someone decided to get it 2 or 3 turns later... Oh, and as regards the embassies, I didn't realize that we didn't have them. I didn't meet any new civs, so I assumed we already HAD embassies since we were in communication with everyone. Guess I should have checked - my oversight.

Where are the designated cities (and pre-builds) for Copernicus', Magellan's, Newton's?
HUH? Why would we build those when we aren't doing our own research? And how can you pre-build when there's nothing to build?

We know about the importance of getting to the other continent. Do we have a plan when/where to build/upgrade ships (harbours!) and expedition force (settlers, defenders, attackers)?

We have harbors and I added a few. We can't build any ships that will get us there until Magnetism, and that didn't appear to be anytime soon. Is there some advantage to building caravels or galleys and upgrading them over waiting to build galleons?

All cities stalled at size 6 should hurry aqueduct. I would have hurried also some granaries.
If we spend all our gold hurrying stuff, what are we going to use to buy tech with? With Chemistry selling for over 1400g, I think we will need some gold to buy tech!

Persepolis; we research at 10%, therefore researcher is wasted. Note that the capital can easily bear some unhappines without negative effects.
Earlier you (or somebody) was talking about the importance of keeping the cities in WTLKD when possible. That's what I was trying to do.

Sardis: market should have been before aqueduct. Why?

Ellipi has FP, and therefore market was NOT needed before aqueduct. Why did't you hurry the aqueduct? What are you using markets for? I thought they increase commerce (gold).
What does having FP have to do with not needing a market?

Tarsus: I would build cathedral first. Location is not very good for harbour. Tarsus is running out of land tiles to produce FOOD on, so it will not be able to grow any more unless it has a harbor to make the coast tiles produce 2 food.

I would appreciate knowing the reasoning behind some of your comments. You are welcome to email or PM them to me so everyone else is not bored. You seem to be contradicting yourself quite a bit so I must not be understanding you correctly. In one place you say WLTKD is needed and another you criticize a specialist that was keeping WLTKD going. ?? Some places you say I should have hurried aqueduct and another you say I should have built marketplace before aqueduct. I do not mean to argue, but I am very confused and would like to understand so I can learn from it.

Heike

Heike, nothing is more important to winning in Civ3 than researching as quickly as possible. In the end, everything you do - from building libraries to conquering cities to irrigating your own - is all about producing more beakers. The different play levels only make you approach research in different ways; at deity level, for example, the best way to research is to set the slider at zero, and then buy or extort all the techs from the AI.

At regent level you are even with the AI, so you can easily out-research it. You should spend your money on what is most needed. Rushing a library or aqueduct speeds up you research. As for prebuilds, you can always use the palace, as well as universities, etc.

The advantage to upgrading ships as opposed to building them is that the former is faster.

Of course, most of these points pale in comparison to the wasted effort going into the large-scale settling of the second hemisphere.

Heike, let me expand a little more on my comments. I post it, because maybe others are interested also and just don't ask.

When I commented, I commented on the current situation, part of which resulted from earlier turns.

The really bad boy was MacBaldrick not keeping the peace treaty with Babylon. :spank: Therefore, we still can't do gpt tech deals with the AIs.

On regemt level, given the size of Persia, we would well be able to competitively reserach. It just would not be cost effective. It's cheaper to buy the techs, but we have to invest the money that once we start researching, we are not on par, but superior with our research capability.

Therefore we need a super science city, as I said in my post of January 10.

No wonders were being build (F7), hence it's a great time to think about and start pre-builds.

On research: I start research full speed with steam power trying to be the 1st to see coal. Afterwards gunning for ToE and Hoover. From then on, I am usually tech leader. But I always have a super science city (see above).

Saving money is good, but within reason. After your last turn, astronomy plus chemistry was available for 940g. I would have bought it.

Since power comes from size, I would have hurried granaries for faster growth, and also because of this needed markets and aqueducts. Having cash of 1000-1500 should be enough.

I would have build some aqueducts earlier, because not having them limits growth at size 6 and thus future power.

In Ellipi, I thought you built market for happiness/wltkd. And that is not necessary, because the FP also prevents corruption (as does the Palace).

The harbours I would have place to the far East and West of our continent. I would have built galleys/caravels, because it is important to set sail fast and upgrades only need 1 turn and we have the cash to do it.

Tao, it may or may not be true that buying techs on regent level is more "cost-effective" in terms of saving gold. But even if it were true, it doesn't mean that it's the best way to play.

On regent level, any player who grasps the fundamentals of the game can out-research the AI. This player could easily take the lead on a research branch the AI is not researching, and trade for the techs the AI did research. This alone makes accurate "cost-effectiveness" comparisons impossible to make.

Even more importantly, the player who has the tech lead is in control of the game, able to build powerful new units like knights and cavalry first, and gain immeasurable benefit as a result. The same is true for building banks and universities sooner, with their compounding effect on the research rate.

Finally, there's the ultimate reason: you will win the game faster if you do your own research, because due to human focus and opportunistic trading, you will reach your end tech faster than the AI ever will.

The situation is different on emperor, because of the large AI bonuses, but even there, many emperor players take over their own research at the start of the middle ages. Deity is tougher still, and most players research selectively until early in the industrial era. But I have never read a respectable strategy that advocates sitting in the back seat and buying techs from the AI until the industrial age, playing at regent level.

You may want to consider all this in improving your own game play.

Hey, remember me?

I originally started the Grt. lib. and later found we got 3 or 4 tech from it. It was a plan to boost us into a tech lead and keep us there. We could be the first to get magnetism thus first to get to the island. Space ship is our goal, isn't it?

Plus changing the Palace to Forbidden Palace is only a temporary fix. Later on when the new continent will need to defend itself, it will be hard relying on dad miles away. Having a palace and forbidden palace is like having to civs working together. Loose one stride, gain two.

n8mac

Can a great leader be used to complete a palace on the new continent ? If so we can have our cake (Palace + FP on 'home' continent during Middle Ages) and eat it :D (switch to one in each continent) once we have some new cities to take advantage and a gt leader of course.

I hope my strategy of pre-positioning and using Caravels to cross ocean rather than wait for Galleons will give us that head start without the magnetism tech lead. The next 20 turns will reveal how fast the other AIs follow us to the continent.

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
Can a great leader be used to complete a palace on the new continent ? Yes.

I was interested in trying out an interesting game like this, but (1) i don't know if its too late to sign up and (2) i couldnt find the latest save file anywhere...

let me know :-D

Yes Senecasax we are still playing the game. The latest round is available in /uploads3 as Xerxes 1030 BC.SAV.ZIP. We have several caravels with settlers / workers and military off the coast of the resources 'continent' and its several islands.

We need to explore for the best locations for cities (I had a peek with FogofWar off - yes it is cheating but so do the AIs) which have access to multiple resources, they are there to be found. That's the next players task plus trashing the barbarians, creating a few Gt leaders (to give palace etc in new continent) and preparing to grab the as yet unrevealed resources (coal / oil / rubber etc.).

Anyone want to have the good next or should Senecasax take a turn.

I recommend you have a go anyway to see what you would do and compare with posted moves plus the 'experts' commentaries.

Learn and Enjoy :D

Lets see what i can come up with. I've read through the game so far. Maybe i can help..?

1030 AD
Traded Wines to Greeks for Incense, Gems , and 90 Gold. Made sure to remove World Map from deal! 3 happy faces to each city with a marketplace :-D
This allows me to eliminate all entertainers (replaced 3 with taxmen), increasing production and still maintaining WLTKD.
Discovered El-Armana was working the Iron Mountain & Forest? When the Mined hills produce more trade and gold & food?

1040 AD
Set Ellipi to pre-build for magellan's or wall street.
5 new WLKD's. Saw A Japanese Galley at top left corner of map :-(.
Southeastern exploration reveals an Ivory & some saltpeter.
Trade 600 gold for Democracy from India. Not sure about a revolution right now, very little corruption in most cities. Will think on this. Traded democracy to egypt and china for GPT deals.
Began research on ToG - 7 turns, with +24 gold/t. We'll hit nationalism for free, and trade for (hopefully) more Gpt deals. Buying techs the whole game doesn't seem like a good strategy for us...
Picked up knight (him and musket will die by themselves. There's SOO many barbs on this map.

1050 AD
Troops landed on hill on southeast continent. (jungle around (rubber)?) 2 musketman and a knight. other ships moving in to land next turn. settlement planned in next 2-4 turns, depending on native resistance.
Yep. Japanese are exploring - they went along the top with the galley.
Traded Democracy to Greeks for more gold & gpt. Also got their map, looks like they've been exploring east as well.

1060 AD
Tyre builds Cathedral, set to marketplace. (not sure why it wasn't told to build marketplace first anyway, but i didn't want to waste shields).
Sidon gets the settler (told to go to tarsus which is making galleon), i set to produce musketman. Need more defensive units against the barbarians. Susa builds bank, set to pre-build for wall street, newtons, or universal sufferage - 40 turn palace. Will need to start a pre-build for ToE later.
4 turns till ToG.

1070AD
More units landed on southeastern continent. I'll start the base there, and grow it to other islands. Nothing new with the AI. (i make it policy to contact them every turn).
3 turns till ToG

1080AD
Land on hill on southwestern continent (knight, 2 muskets, 2 immortals). mountains here (urainum)? Additional units landed on southern continent. Sending ships back across ocean to pick up new units.
Traded 200 gold to Gandhi for Navigation. Soon we will gain the tech lead.
Magellan's started in Ellipi (25 turns) @ 14/shields / t
2 turns till ToG.


1090 AD
ToG 1 turn, rate reduced to 50%, +74 g/t.
Northeastern ship sunk by 2 lucky barbarian galleys :-(.
Nortwestern is still exploring. We need more units to land in the north.
India has founded a city on the northwestern continent - wheat, ivory, cow, and whale, and iron in radius. (don't ask me how the AI gets away with it not dying to barbarians as soon as their 1 defense unit - 1 settler combo lands!).
Founded Ergili - irrigated grassland (shield goes to waste). Begin construction of harbor.


1100 AD
Traded ToG to india for 48 Gpt plus all their gold. Didn't trade nationalism. Susa starts newton's, 23 turns. if the wonders cascade, we should be able to get to industrialization soon for universal sufferage. 10 turns to steam power. Found excellent site on southwest continent for city. Sent galleons there ( 6 turns to get there ). Units surviving just fine. Landed musket and knight on mountain on tip of northwest continent.

1110 AD
Egypt gets ToG, traded nationalism to Egypt for 21 gpt and 84 gold. 7 turns to steam power and positive cash flow.

1120 AD
Trade Nationalism to India for free artistry, gold & WM. Trade free artistry to everyone else for gold and WM's. Begin a few university & library builds to improve science rate.

1130 AD
Not much going on. Ransacked some barbarian villages for 75 gold :-).

1140 AD
Continued fighting barbarians. Nearly cleared both continents.

1150 AD
Obtained some riflemen via upgrades, preparing to load onto galleon with a settler.
Next turn, will gain access to silks and ivory. Need to build harbors and roads to connect. Greece, who was 2 techs behind last turn with nothing (0 gold etc), magically caught up in tech this turn.

1160 AD
Egypt declares war on the greeks. Did greece steal their tech? Then how? Founded 3 new cities, 2 on SE continent, 1 on SW. Pulled the knight & musket on NW continent out. Sending them around to explore.

1170 AD
Source of Iron near perseopils is exhausted :-(.
Egypt has Military Tradition. Waiting until i get steam power, then we'll see about a trade. And again, greece astonishes us with it as well.
Build another city on SE continent.

1180 AD
Steam power discovered. Coal on our continent, as well as on the far away continent. Begin railroads on main continent. Trade steam power to various civs for over 110 G/t. Industrialization 7 turns away.

1190 AD
Science rate set at 100% with a positive cash flow of +33 g/t. Mostly Maintained WLKD as well, soon will hook up luxuries and gain even more happy peeps. AI is sending me 212 gold per turn. Please keep these agreements, as maybe our reputuation we get better?
Industrialization 5 turns away.

1200 AD
China founds a city o