Do you support the proposed plan stated in this informational post and would you make the changes needed to facilitate the plan?

Plan A
I've put together a plan for Military Production that will give us a good idea of how long this build up should take. I made this plan with the assumption that we would connect the Saltpeter immediately if not sooner. I based our border defense on the Musketman. I've based the offensive force as Knights.

By using 28% of our cities for strictly Military Production, we will (if we use the cities listed below...) dedicate 52% of our shields to the cause. At the end of 32 turns we will have 17 Muskets and 24 Knights.

First thing we have to do is make these changes during pre-turn:
Leningrado to Barracks
Nara to Barracks
Valhalla to Barracks
Tlaxcala to Knights
Octavinium to Knights
Tokyo to Temple (not part of the plan, just common sense.)

Then let everything run its present course, completing what is queued up. As the cities listed below complete their current task, switch them to the following queue:

Bremershaven--->musket, musket, musket, musket, musket,
.............................musket, knight, knight
Kyoto-------------->musket, musket, knight
Naerva------------> " " "
The Burrows-----> " " "
Kells---------------> " " "
Valhalla-----------> " " "
Bavaria-----------> " " "
Kuhkaff------------>knight, knight, knight
Nara----------------> " " "
Tlaxcala------------> " " "
Octavinium--------> " " "
New Falcon's N.--> " " "
Morgana-----------> " " "

We have 16 border towns. This plan will give us a musket in each of those and one to send with the front troops in the attack. This is with no upgrades, so the approximate 2600g we earn during this time would not be affected. But we must re-connect the Saltpeter immediately.

20 turns would be enough for a city with 6 shields to build a Colosseum. In 32 turns you could build a Temple in the same city. These 32 turns, again, would give us 17 Musketmen and 24 Knights. This should be enough power to take pretty much all of America OR begin our attack on Babylon. The quick surgical strike on the two Russian hamlets shouldn't even slow us up or put a dent in our current armor.

As a side note, some of the break points are:
14 turns.........9 muskets, 5 knights
22 turns........17 muskets, 10 knights
32 turns........17 muskets, 24 Knights


__________________

This plan is being polled for eventual enactment. Governors are encouraged to post their opinion of this plan below.

It appears to be too late to use this as a binding poll for the t/c tomorrow, but it it receives a favorable response, maybe the DP can utilize some of the directives if deemed appropriate.

This poll is Informational. It will run until approximately until 1830GMT tomorrow, Saturday, Jan. 4th.

A discussion thread can be found in this thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=40513)

YES because we are #1 on land mass and #12 on military service. this is not good. we need more military!

It makes sense, we must ensure the bulk of our military production is done on the frontier cities to ensure they can reach the fronts quickly if we go to war soon.

I agree to this great plan, but we don't have support to free military units. Unless we all agree to cutting down our gpt to like 50 gpt.

lets just build up our military and screw the internal problems the nations is having

According to the in game domestic report, which is the only thing that concerns me as domestic advisor, nearly all of our cities are GROWING SLOWLY. we dont need baracks and musket after musket, we need libraries, universities, marketplaces, courthouses, workers, roads, mines and later rails so we can transport this military buildup that we will get when each city is growing to its fullest potential.

I cannot support this plan, it doesn't leave room for cultural and other improvements.

Originally posted by FionnMcCumhall
lets just build up our military and screw the internal problems the nations is having

According to the in game domestic report, which is the only thing that concerns me as domestic advisor, nearly all of our cities are GROWING SLOWLY. we dont need baracks and musket after musket, we need libraries, universities, marketplaces, courthouses, workers, roads, mines and later rails so we can transport this military buildup that we will get when each city is growing to its fullest potential.

Ummm..., doesn't growing slowly have to do with food production? If you're lobbying for workers to build irrigation projects and roads and mines then by all means I support you - especially since that can be accomplished without restricting the growth of our military.

I don't like this plan.... We do not need more military.... Even if it is 28%. We need to use about all of are cities into building up are culture, treasury, and science. 5% for military would be fine by me and that 5% should be defender's only.

I dont like the plan. We have enough Military units to defend ourselves. We should consider on building Places of Culture and Learning.
Even Though I am a Militaristic player. I am also a Scientific and Industrious Player.

Nah!

Time for Plan B! ;)

No, I don't support this plan. There's far too many military units being produced, and no room for culture, growth (markets and banks), and WORKERS! The one thing that we need to HELP mobilize our troops is roads. We need more workers for that (also because of rails probably coming online this term).

OK, I'm back.

@CT - If it's workers you want, it doesn't make sense to produce them from your larger cities. Get them from your very small cities. The population loss is much less that way.

@Strider - Are you aware that 5% Military production would mean that we would have only two cities producing Military units?

@Plexus - With this plan 72% of our cities would be building Cultural and other improvements. You're making this personal. :)

@Fionn - donsig is right. The only thing that will help a slowly growing city is more food. Either your micro-management is off or you don't have enough irrigation.

Originally posted by Cyc
OK, I'm back.

@CT - If it's workers you want, it doesn't make sense to produce them from your larger cities. Get them from your very small cities. The population loss is much less that way.

@Strider - Are you aware that 5% Military production would mean that we would have only two cities producing Military units?

@Plexus - With this plan 72% of our cities would be building Cultural and other improvements. You're making this personal. :)

@Fionn - donsig is right. The only thing that will help a slowly growing city is more food. Either your micro-management is off or you don't have enough irrigation.

Yes.... I am fully aware of that.... Also it does not depend if we build workers from the large or small cities. The population loss is the exact same.... 1. It will never change.

Originally posted by Chieftess
Time for Plan B! ;)

No, I don't support this plan. There's far too many military units being produced, and no room for culture, growth (markets and banks), and WORKERS! The one thing that we need to HELP mobilize our troops is roads. We need more workers for that (also because of rails probably coming online this term).

Didn't you wisely point out how many foreign units are inside our borders? I'm not so sure we have enough defense to deal with a problem should it arise suddenly.

Plan A does not call for us to build only military units at the expense of city improvements and workers. It also does not call for the use of any gold by the military, It is a well thought out and balanced plan that can only benefit Fanatika greatly.

So far, we have done well to not get involved in any wars we didn't want since the bizarre declaration of war by the Persians. This is because of our military might. The AI constantly builds military units, and will catch up to us quickly if we do not do the same. We do not need all of our cities building military, but building improvements in all of them would be suicide.

A lot of things can benefite Fanatika greatly, building lots of workers gets infrastructure going at the cost of growth. Building military units is good for war and defense at the cost of infrastructure, growth, and progress. Building improvements benefits the nation through growth and progress, but is time consuming and expensive. Its all in how you weigh the benefits against the costs.

Originally posted by eyrei
So far, we have done well to not get involved in any wars we didn't want since the bizarre declaration of war by the Persians. This is because of our military might. The AI constantly builds military units, and will catch up to us quickly if we do not do the same. We do not need all of our cities building military, but building improvements in all of them would be suicide.

The AI also builds large amounts of culture and science improvements. Leading in techs help them greatly..... Leading in culture could make a war that are units can not fight.

With evenn 28% of are cities producing military units... It is still 28% that won't get any new improvements.

@Strider - As soon as our Governors and Domestic Leaders get our cities irrigated and growing and building the improvements that will allow them to grow in a healthy, happy manner, then these little cities (now grown large) can switch out with the Military producers. That way the Military producers, who have suffered to protect the little cities, can then build things like Cathedrals and Marketplaces. 72% of our cities will be building these improvements to finally get them equal to our proud Military producers. Can't you see that? Get them to grow, so they can relieve the larger cities. Target some of the smaller cities that have a lot of food (I've laid all this out in previous posts), such as Zorgonzolia, to build workers. Have them irrigate the plains. Get our little cities growing with the food they need and the improvements they need. Build our Military with our self-sufficient cities, that can catch up later.

Originally posted by Strider

With evenn 28% of are cities producing military units... It is still 28% that won't get any new improvements.

Plan A does not mean a city will get no improvements. The plan is for a fixed duration of 30 turns or so. During that period certian cities will be devoted to military production and in that regard they will get no improvements for the duration of the plan. Once the plan is complete we can reward these cities buy rushing some improvements. On the other hand, 72% of our cities will be building nothing but workers and improvements for 30 turns. Also since the plan calls for zero military spending there will be plenty of gold in the treasury to help our less productive cities get the improvements they need.

It is very sad that the debate over a good and sensible plan has been twisted and turned into a debate about total military production versus improving our cities!

i still dont see the merit in this proposal

Originally posted by donsig


Plan A does not mean a city will get no improvements. The plan is for a fixed duration of 30 turns or so. During that period certian cities will be devoted to military production and in that regard they will get no improvements for the duration of the plan. Once the plan is complete we can reward these cities buy rushing some improvements. On the other hand, 72% of our cities will be building nothing but workers and improvements for 30 turns. Also since the plan calls for zero military spending there will be plenty of gold in the treasury to help our less productive cities get the improvements they need.

It is very sad that the debate over a good and sensible plan has been twisted and turned into a debate about total military production versus improving our cities!

Do you know how long 30 turns are? That is 3 turn chats..... 3 turn chats that are wasted on useless units! 3 turn chats that can raise are treasury even more! Increase are culture! Make are people smarter... Put a library in about every town! If we set every city that down not have a library on one...
We can greatly increase are culture in that period!

I concur with this plan and have no problem with it. That is, if my opinion matters. ;)

30 turns is excessive to me.

Look at it this way:

28% for military production should hardly be enough to defend against a decated foe. They have the art of surprise... They can mass there units up in one area and take quite a few cities before are guys even get there. You are saying that if we have no military production than it will leave us even weaker against attack... well... consider this:

The AI has the element of surprise when it attacks. With the extra culture Plan A won't provide we can expand are bordors more. Allowing us to detect an attack easier.

Right now we have a badly developed road system. The workers we can Produce without Plan A can develop are road system more. Making us quicker to react against an attack.

Also the improvements we build without Plan A can increase are treasury. Allowing us to rush more units if the need arise's.

this plan only looks at the immediate future. We need a plan that looks to the far future where we can have our building period now and produce the necessary defensive units. If we can get marketplaces, banks and the stock exchange combined with a golden age we could turn out units and new improvemnts faster

i agree with strider we do need to expand our borders more and not by war like some think, it should be culturally. We could then detect attacks faster as strider said as well. A far seeing future plan is better than a immediate future plan

It is very sad that the debate over a good and sensible plan has been twisted and turned

At least there is a debate, would you like it better if everyone simply posted "Whatever" or "..."?

Originally posted by Strider

Do you know how long 30 turns are? That is 3 turn chats..... 3 turn chats that are wasted on useless units! 3 turn chats that can raise are treasury even more! Increase are culture! Make are people smarter... Put a library in about every town! If we set every city that down not have a library on one...
We can greatly increase are culture in that period!

Yes, I know how long 30 turns is. It is 30 turns. The units produced would not be useless. We would use them to strike Russia or America to increase our nation's productivity. We would gain production over and above that invested in the units. There is a good chance that these units could win another war for us and bring enemy technologies into our hands for free. There is the chance that a great leader would be produced that might just allow us to build a great wonder. We decided long ago on a strategy to build our wonders using great leaders. Without wars we will get no leaders and no culture producing wonders of our own.

As for the specifics of Plan A, Every city listed in the plan already has a library - except Bavaria which is working on one now. It would be completed under Plan A. There are 12 cities nvolved in Plan A and six of them already have temples. Two already have universities and three more will be built under the plan. Four markets will be built in plan cities under the plan.

For crying out loud has anyone read this plan? You all cry and whine like babies and like babies what you say makes no sense!

We cannot guarantee production in the result, with a couple bad battles for us and we may be in trouble. I would rather focus on marketplaces on the cities whihc lack them to set us up for democracy.

I do not remember anyone deciding that we are going to rely on a Great Leader (which happens to come very rarely) to increase are culture. Also productivity is only in ONE city. They are not combined into another city. So mainly it will help us by making us put more money into lux's hurting are cities shields during the war thus hurting us for a number of possibly useless cities that will do very little to help us. See no point in it.

Originally posted by Strider
I do not remember anyone deciding that we are going to rely on a Great Leader (which happens to come very rarely) to increase are culture. Also productivity is only in ONE city. They are not combined into another city. So mainly it will help us by making us put more money into lux's hurting are cities shields during the war thus hurting us for a number of possibly useless cities that will do very little to help us. See no point in it.

Here is one discussion that includes the wonder building using great leader strategy. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33225&pagenumber=1)

The poll resulting from that discussion. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35065)

I do not understand what you are saying about lux's. We can fight wars now with little worry of war weariness. We can even acquire a domestic source of silk if we go to war with Russia.

Russia owns a few cities near Kyoto which has our Forbidden Palace. Adding thwm to Fanatika would not be adding useless cities.

WE DONT NEED ANY MORE CITIES RIGHT NOW!

46 is enough right now!

Originally posted by FionnMcCumhall
WE DONT NEED ANY MORE CITIES RIGHT NOW!

Well that solved it.... I was worried about wasting a few notes posting against donsig. Rely on Fionn to come up with a one sentence come back. Oh well.

Luckily, I've missed the majority of the debate. Therefore, I will state I fully support 'Plan A' (though I admit a catchier name would have been cooler).

I hear the compliants, and agree our infastructure is suffering at the hands of our military. However, we have already chosen the path towards conquest, and as any expert Civ player would tell you, a change in strategy in the middle of a game would be devistating.

Also, Plan A enlists larger production cities for military production. We still have many smaller cities that can produce workers, libraries, universities, etc.

We MUST follow through with our plans to dominate the world. Vote YES for Plan A!

Originally posted by Octavian X
Luckily, I've missed the majority of the debate. Therefore, I will state I fully support 'Plan A' (though I admit a catchier name would have been cooler).

I hear the compliants, and agree our infastructure is suffering at the hands of our military. However, we have already chosen the path towards conquest, and as any expert Civ player would tell you, a change in strategy in the middle of a game would be devistating.

Also, Plan A enlists larger production cities for military production. We still have many smaller cities that can produce workers, libraries, universities, etc.

We MUST follow through with our plans to dominate the world. Vote YES for Plan A!

"It takes a smart person to know when to start, but an even smarter person to know when to stop." (heard that some where.... It's a revised addtion of an old quote)

Stopping would not hurt us at all!! Let the units in the current queue's to finish up.... Then move in banks, marketplace's, universities, libries! We could increase are treasury giving us enough gold to rush units if the need arise's. We need a time of peace. Vote yes to this plan is voting yes to using units, gold, and shields to take mere useless cities.

I support this plan. We are having all this talk about who to take out next, so we'll need some units to do that. It takes time to build those units aswell. Also, only one quarter (fine just over one quarter) of our cities will be building units. The rest can build workers and culture. I think it is a good idea.

These units are not useless. It is planning for the future. It is planning ahead to our next war. Also, units are never useless if you are surrounded by other countries. They can always be upgraded aswell.

I fully support this plan. We aren't playing on Chieften. If we don't stab someone in the back, they'll stab us in the back. We need these units. And our other cities will be producing workers and culture as stated above.

There shouldn't be a next war, much less units needed to have it. We've taken enough terrority.... Taking more would be useless. Wasting shields to build units that we throw into war and get killed all to take a few cities that will be useless to us. The American's will be useless to us.... Russia we can attack and get a good few cities, but not worth the effort.

We need a time of peace.... War does nothing but capture terrority. We have the terrority we need. So we have no more use of war.

Let it go Strider, we are wasting our breath by stateing the obvious. No amount of arguement is going to change people mind, im surprised we got 9 votes out of it but there again lies the problem. we will never change.

Once we have all governors in place, ill sit back and watch everything i am trying to work for go down in flames before i could even try to enact any internal policies. Cyc never consulted me on how i felt about this proposal, in fact no one did so we could come up with alternatives to this plan. We just vote for one without any other ideas in place. I shall still look over build queus to make sure we at least try to build improvemnts but the build period i want will never come.

This thread has become more of a shouting match than a discussion. Please refrain from targetting your posts at other people.

Quoting Zarn:
I concur with this plan and have no problem with it. That is, if my opinion matters.
__________________________________________

It's good to have you back, Zarn.

Originally posted by eyrei
This thread has become more of a shouting match than a discussion. Please refrain from targetting your posts at other people.

That's 2 times in one day I've been warned on the same thing! Amazing! Of course Shaitan had to warn himself and me for doing it. (Slightly funny seeing Shaitan mod himself)