Proposed build queues:

There was not enough time scheduled between the end of the Saturday, Jan 4 chat and start of the Monday, Jan 7 chat to have a 24 hour discussion thread and a 48 hour poll hence this is a quick poll. Changing a build queue can be done via a quick poll per F.4.C.3.a.vi of the CoS. (http://www.civfanatics.net/~demogame/constitution_of_fanatika.htm#COS) According to F.4.B of the CoS (http://www.civfanatics.net/~demogame/constitution_of_fanatika.htm#COS) the quorum for the quick poll is 1/3 of the active census. According to the Judiciary (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=684483#post684483) the current active census is 30 making the quorum for this quick poll 10. Once the quorum is reached this poll will be valid and binding.

The purpose of this poll is to readjust our cities' build queues so that the building of city improvements and military units will be made more efficient. A poll is being used since some of our provinces may remain without governors for another turn chat.

This poll is starting on Sunday, January 5 at 5:47pm (GMT) and will remain open for one day so that the results of the poll will be known before the Monday, Jan. 7 chat.

Relevant discussion threads:

What preparations do we need for the next war? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40513)
Demographics - Domestic Department. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40713)
How about peace for a change? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40630)
A quick war against the Russians. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40612)
Info poll: What percentage of our production should we devote to our military? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40722)
Plan A: Accept or Denounce. II. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40686)

Proposed build queues (changes are in bold):

Kagoshima: temple (9), market (20) (29 turns)
Tarkingrad: worker (8), worker (10) (18 turns)
Valhalla: market (5), barracks (3), musket (7), musket (7), musket (7) (29 turns)
Tlaxcala: knight (10), knight (14), knight (14) (38 turns)
Octavinium: market (4), knight (8), knight (8), knight (8) (28 turns)
Tokyo: temple (5), university (15) (20 turns)
Dapperdan: harbor (18), university (50) (68 turns)
Nocsfiedera: worker (6), granary (60) (66 turns)
Bremershaven: knight (5), knight (5), musket (4), musket (4), musket (4), musket (4), musket (4), musket (4) (34 turns)
Kyoto: market (1), knight (7), musket (6), musket (6) (20 turns)
Naerva: [/b]musket (7), musket (7), musket (7)[/b] (21 turns)
Civanatoria: temple (16), aqueduct (34) (50 turns)
The Burrow: cathedral (13), musket (6), musket (6), musket (6) (31 turns)
Kells: barracks (3), musket (7), musket (7), musket (7) (24 turns)
Plexenburg: temple (9), aqueduct (17) (26 turns)
Bavaria: musket (7), musket (7), musket (7) (21 turns)
Pensacola: market (17), aqueduct (20) (37 turns)
Kukhaff: knight (6), knight (10), knight (10) (26 turns)
Nara: knight (8), knight (10), knight (10) (26 turns)
Zorgonzolia: market (74) (74 turns)
New Flacon?s Nest: knight (7), knight (12), knight (12) (31 turns)
Morgana: university (3), knight (10), knight (10), knight (10) (33 turns)

Notes: No other cities would need to have military units in their queues for the next 30 turns.

Please vote yes if you want these build queues implemented at the start of the Monday, Jan 7 turn chat.
Please vote no if you do not want these build build queues implemented at the start of the Monday, Jan 7 turn chat.
Please vote abtain if you cannot bring yourself to vote yes or no.

I am against taking power away from the govenors. They were elected to do this type of thing. The PEOPLE elected them, so stop taking away their power!

I am against this queue. The reason is simple, It relates to the Plan A idea that would hurt our infrastructure. I would agree with Goonie, The Govenors has the power to establish build queues (Unless the Domestic Department controlls certan cities ;) )

I dont understand why this poll has less votes than the re-vised plan A poll...

Don't worry about this anymore, donsig. It turns out that everything Fionn said in the negotiations was a lie. I gave him what he had asked for and worked with him on his "building", but now he is not only NOT supporting the plan he helped put together with the President and I, he is trashing that very plan. Let these great leaders do their own work and send Fanatika down in flames. We deserve it.

He is supporting it CYC. He cant help it if others vote against it.

donsig:
Octavinium only has 4 turns left of its Marketplace and I think it is wisest to construct it first - to gain more citizens and gold and production. Then I will gladly build some military units in it.

But Zorgonzolia on the other hand has 1 production. It is not ready for a market. It needs culture (which it has none of) and a courthouse for more production.

I am always ready to hear new ideas. And I would like to know why you think Zorgonzola should produce a Marketplace and not Octavinium?

Cheetah, Governor of Rhineland

I am against this poll on a couple of ground:

1. That's almost 40 units! 40gpt that we lose! It gives us 60gpt for treaties, and techs. Techs aren't getting any cheaper, and unless we have something to sell, we'll be paying in cash.

2. I see a couple of markets and an aquaduct, but we need more growth! True, we are going to get some gems hooked up, but I'd like to see more markets for more income, and acquaducts for 2 reasons:

a. Size 7+ cities give an additional 2 support. We have 9 cities (9 out of 49! 18% are cities. I would like that number to be at 50% or more before we start any wars. We only have ONE size 12 city. Other nations have on average about 4 size 12 cities, with many more cities than we do. They have a better war economy, so they can support more units.

b. Higher production and commerce. If we're stuck at size 6, we're wasting our production in the other 14 tiles within the city radius!

3. Like Goonie said, build queues are for governors to decide, granted with guidence from domestic and military,

4. If I read the laws correctly, wouldn't build queues fall into long term decisions, like alliences? (which is what quick polls shouldn't do)...

5. There's already a quick poll, which would be conflicting...

What in gods green earth do YOU think your doing donsig? Are you trying to go around me and the governors? I call for a judicial review of this poll and if we could id have you PI'd for going against the governors wishes who do not want plan a

It matters not whether I agree with the changes or not Donsig, it is not your job to decide on build queues.

Originally posted by Goonie
I am against taking power away from the govenors. They were elected to do this type of thing. The PEOPLE elected them, so stop taking away their power!

You are so right, we do elect governors to do this sort of thing only they haven't been doing it!

By posting this poll I take nothing away from the governors for they are free to post their own polls.

1. The governors HAVE been posting polls (it's just that not every province has a governor yet).

2. I bet you if the governors were to make a queue one unit off, you'll go on your usual antics about governors (and 40J) not listening to the polls... (of which this is so far defeated).

Originally posted by CivGeneral
I am against this queue. The reason is simple, It relates to the Plan A idea that would hurt our infrastructure. I would agree with Goonie, The Govenors has the power to establish build queues (Unless the Domestic Department controlls certan cities ;) )

According to our CoL:

A governor organizes the production (building queues) of the cities in a province.

Organizing means:

In the context of a leader's duties, this includes suggesting a plan, discussing it and passing instructions on to the Designated Player.

According to our consitution Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

We do not elect governors (or any leader) to make decisions for us. We elect them to carry out our wishes. Unfortunately many that get into office seem to forget this and set about doing things their own way rather than finding out what the citizen's want and then doing what it takes to implement the will of the people.

Originally posted by Cheetah
donsig:
Octavinium only has 4 turns left of its Marketplace and I think it is wisest to construct it first - to gain more citizens and gold and production. Then I will gladly build some military units in it.

But Zorgonzolia on the other hand has 1 production. It is not ready for a market. It needs culture (which it has none of) and a courthouse for more production.

I am always ready to hear new ideas. And I would like to know why you think Zorgonzola should produce a Marketplace and not Octavinium?

Cheetah, Governor of Rhineland

I do think Octavinium should finsih the market place - it is in the queue I proposed. Please note that in the proposed queues if the text is not in bold then that is what is already in the queue. My proposal for Octavinium is that it finsih the market and then produce 3 knights.

As for Zorgonzolia, it is a very large city that will grow to size 12 very fast. it already has unhappiness problems. It needs a market as soon as possible for help make it's citizens content. At size nine it currently produces one good shield per turn. We should dip into our treasury in th near future and rush the market there.

2 words

Informational Poll

Originally posted by Chieftess
1. That's almost 40 units! 40gpt that we lose! It gives us 60gpt for treaties, and techs. Techs aren't getting any cheaper, and unless we have something to sell, we'll be paying in cash.

You can continue to look at it that way Chieftess or you can try looking at this way: these queues give us 40 units with which to strike Russia and protect ourselves while doing so. From Russia we can gain more cites near our FP that will not only be productive but will help to support these 40 units. From Russia we can gain a domestic supply of silk to help keep our people happy. From Russia we could very well get techs at the peace table thus saving our gold to buy other things.

2. I see a couple of markets and an aquaduct, but we need more growth! True, we are going to get some gems hooked up, but I'd like to see more markets for more income, and acquaducts for 2 reasons:

a. Size 7+ cities give an additional 2 support. We have 9 cities (9 out of 49! 18% are cities. I would like that number to be at 50% or more before we start any wars. We only have ONE size 12 city. Other nations have on average about 4 size 12 cities, with many more cities than we do. They have a better war economy, so they can support more units.

b. Higher production and commerce. If we're stuck at size 6, we're wasting our production in the other 14 tiles within the city radius!

Please remember that these proposals do not include all our our cities! There are 27 cities not in the proposal that will not be making any military units whatever - they will be making markets and aqueducts - and libraries and temples and workers and universities.

We cannot wait until we have all our cities just right before our next war. We must strike Russia soon in order to take advantage of the situation presented to us. We must prepare for that war now!

3. Like Goonie said, build queues are for governors to decide, granted with guidence from domestic and military

No, Chieftess, build queues are not for governors (nor domestic nor military) to decide. It is up to the citizens to decide upon the build queues.

4. If I read the laws correctly, wouldn't build queues fall into long term decisions, like alliences? (which is what quick polls shouldn't do)...

Read 'em again Chieftess. I listed the appropriate sections of the CoS in the first post. Changing a build queue is given as a specific example of something a quick poll can be used for.

5. There's already a quick poll, which would be conflicting...

Then it would be up to the appropriate leader or the DP to resolve the conflicting polls.

Russia? Who said we were attacking Russia? Last I saw, popular opinion was for America, then Babylon. Russia was just an afterthought.

Originally posted by Chieftess
1. The governors HAVE been posting polls (it's just that not every province has a governor yet).

2. I bet you if the governors were to make a queue one unit off, you'll go on your usual antics about governors (and 40J) not listening to the polls... (of which this is so far defeated).

Where are the polls Cheiftess? Please give me some links because I've missed them all!

Antics? You call pointing out ignored polls antics?

It is clear that there is a strong faction for peace and a strong faction for war. What we should do is stop bickering and go our seperate ways. Those who want peace should play their demo game and those who want war should play their demo game. When it's all over the two sides can compare notes to see if either actually won the game.

Wow Donsig, there is a great idea :rolleyes: how about instead of splitting the game and alienating everyone, you agree that concessions MUST be made whether you like them or not. Those who you argue with make concessions whether they like them or not. Your rigid attitude to this does nothing but put up walls between you and those you argue against.

Originally posted by donsig

3. Like Goonie said, build queues are for governors to decide, granted with guidence from domestic and military

No, Chieftess, build queues are not for governors (nor domestic nor military) to decide. It is up to the citizens to decide upon the build queues.


Yet again you are wrong Donsig. Governors DO control the provincal build queues and do not have to do so according to the citizens. I point out:
A governor organizes the production (building queues) of the cities in a province. Legislative section. part C

I didnt see according to the will of the citizenry in the laws.

Your taking "will of the citizenry" way out of context. Not only that but it seems that your more content to attacking people than proposeing a way to work with one another.

Enough! This is ridiculous and unproductive, and the next person who accuses, insults or attacks someone is getting a 3 day vacation. THIS WILL NOT CONTINUE! You will also get a 3 day vacation for commenting on this warning, so don't. This is not aimed at any one person, but at everyone who has been doing this, and you know who you are.

Originally posted by donsig


Where are the polls Cheiftess? Please give me some links because I've missed them all!

Antics? You call pointing out ignored polls antics?

It is clear that there is a strong faction for peace and a strong faction for war. What we should do is stop bickering and go our seperate ways. Those who want peace should play their demo game and those who want war should play their demo game. When it's all over the two sides can compare notes to see if either actually won the game.

I meant discussions... :)

BTW, I think we should take a page (or quote) out of DG1, Term 3, pre-PI#6: "Let's put this thing down, and back away... Slowly...".

I really think this thread should be closed now...

I agree, lets close this thread before the whole thing get out of control :). I would like to recomend that the juditiary looks into this and close this thread.

Lets do what Danke said "Its a game. Demogame *game*. Fun and all that. Play nice" -Danke

Originally posted by Immortal
Wow Donsig, there is a great idea :rolleyes: how about instead of splitting the game and alienating everyone, you agree that concessions MUST be made whether you like them or not. Those who you argue with make concessions whether they like them or not. Your rigid attitude to this does nothing but put up walls between you and those you argue against.

I do agree that concessions and compromise are important. I do not see building no military units as a compromise. I apologize if my attitude seems rigid however I see many dangers ahead for Fanatika if we neglect our military now and go the way of peace. I do not think we will have peace. If we remain weak we will fall prey to someone's SoD. This kinda reminds me of that king in Two Towers - the one who didn't want to risk open war. If we try to hole up in our fortress who can we count on to come charging to our rescue when our defenses are breached?

Originally posted by FionnMcCumhall

Yet again you are wrong Donsig. Governors DO control the provincal build queues and do not have to do so according to the citizens. I point out:
A governor organizes the production (building queues) of the cities in a province. Legislative section. part C

I didnt see according to the will of the citizenry in the laws.

You quote the CoL but the CoL is subservient to our constitution which clearly states in article J that Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people is defined as Will of the People – A majority preference as determined by discussions and polls. Please note the lack of the word official, valid or binding in front of polls. please also note that the will of the people can be ascertained through discussion only. As I said before, we do not elect leaders to make decisions for us but to do our bidding. The trick of course is to determine the will of the people which can at times be a very difficult thing to do especially when the people are not of one mind. I certainly understand that we are currently at such a point in our history. I do not mind being in the minority and I am willing (as always) to go with the majority. Unfortunately, only one side in this very important debate is putting forward specific proposals for the citizens to vote on. The other faction has not yet presented a specific plan for the approval or disapproval of the citizens.

donsig:
Then we agree about Octavinium.
Zorgonzolia on the other hand, needs culture as I see it. To combat the unhappines I want to build a Temple for now, as it also gives culture and I fear this city may fall to a cultur-flip.

I am ready to discuss any changes to the build queues, but I would like that the polls could be seperated, as I agree to some of the queues that is proposed here. I disagree to others and has not had time yet to make up my mind about the rest.

Originally posted by Cheetah
donsig:
I am ready to discuss any changes to the build queues, but I would like that the polls could be seperated, as I agree to some of the queues that is proposed here. I disagree to others and has not had time yet to make up my mind about the rest.

I almost put a temple in that queue. The big point is that it is building a pikeman right now and the market or temple would be much better. The temple would be easier to rush.

Aother point to make here is that any of these build queues (should they win the support of the people) would still be subject to a legal over-ride vote should the President choose to make any changes.

10-10, but it's 1 hour after the poll should have closed. I don't know what the actually vote tally was. Even still, it's inconclusive.

I don't see any reason to close this poll until the next turn chat starts.

When I posted the poll I wanted it to close before the turn chat started so that the results would be known for the turn chat. therefore I set the poll to close in one day. Setting it to close in two days would have resulted in the poll being open during the turn chat.

The poll closed at 10-10-2. It reached quorum and is valid, official and binding as far as I can tell. Since the poll resulted in a tie it falls to the respective governors to break the tie regarding thier cities.

I think it is unfortunate that a citizen who has stepped forward to promote and idea is attacked, or even threatened with investigation.

Agree or disagree with the concept donsig put forth... all of that is good, but to indicate that somehow the citizens do not have the right to control their government is wrong in my opinion.

I believe that the constitution is quite clear. The leaders are responsible to the citizens. Not the other way around.

I applaud donsig for bringing forth the proposal, and hope that a free exchange of ideas will continue.

With gaining 13gpt (if it passes) from renegotiating peace deals, it is certainly my opinion that we can build a few more units then previously thought. Even if we do not use your build queues the additional units we can support should definitely be built.

Respective governors, eh?
I vote NO