Currently is seems like this:

Spread state religion to a city you own by missionary: +1
(would it add if automatically spread?)
Bulid church : +1
Build monastery: +1
*no point added if built by the Pope.
Build cathedral: ?
Prosecute: +2

Spread non-state religion to a city you own by missionary: -1
Bulid non-state religion church : -1
Build non-state religion monastery: -1

Great Prophet become saint: +5

Say no to the crusade: return to 0

Anything left?

Currently is seems like this:

Spread state religion to a city you own by missionary: +1
(would it add if automatically spread?)


+1 for spread of state religion with or without a Missionary.


Bulid church : +1
Build monastery: +1
*no point added if built by the Pope.
Build cathedral: ?


+1 if you build any state religion building. Should work for gifts from the Pope too (it is a bug otherwise).


Prosecute: +2


It should be +1, to give you back the religion you lost due to the foreign religion in the city.


Spread non-state religion to a city you own by missionary: -1
Bulid non-state religion church : -1
Build non-state religion monastery: -1


-1 from spread of foreign religion and building foreign religion buildings.


Great Prophet become saint: +5


Correct.


Say no to the crusade: return to 0


Should be -X points. If you have less than X points to begin with, you go to 0.


Anything left?

State religion wonders like the Round Church and Dome of the Rock also give +1 faith.

Sorry, on second thought, here is how it works:

+1 from spread of state religion in your cities
-1 from spread of non-state religion

+1 from building Temple, Monastery or Cathedral

+1 from Pope building something in your cities

+1 from Prosecution (it was bugged for the Human)

-5 from refusing to join a Crusade (can't go below zero)

Wonders don't give faith, I will change that. I just wonder +1 or +2 per wonder.

+1 if you build any state religion building. Should work for gifts from the Pope too (it is a bug otherwise).

But it doesn't add when I build belfry/seminary/reliquary/church school/house of wisdom.

Check post #3. I wrote this code over a year ago and I forgot how it works. Sorry for the confusion.

yeah reliquaries, house of wisdom, those logically should give...
Cathedrals should be 4?

I think Great Prophets are really underpowered. Unless you get one pretty early to give tech, playing as France or something, they are almost useless. They only give 5 faith points which is ridiculously low. That means for protestants for example, techs are 2.5% less expensive. I think Great Prophets should be upgraded to 10 Faith Points

yeah reliquaries, house of wisdom, those logically should give...
Cathedrals should be 4?

I think Great Prophets are really underpowered. Unless you get one pretty early to give tech, playing as France or something, they are almost useless. They only give 5 faith points which is ridiculously low. That means for protestants for example, techs are 2.5% less expensive. I think Great Prophets should be upgraded to 10 Faith Points

They re very useful for Bulgaria. Last game that I played, I was late in getting the Dalmatian coast and didn't have enough cities. I needed 3 - 4 Saints, which was a god challenge.

I will change France's UHV to "Capture Jerusalem". This will make Saints useful for getting to lead the Crusade. Spain also benefits form defensive Crusades so Saints are useful too. Others can either get techs or settle.

+10 points is huge for Protestants, Orthodox and Muslims. (stability, growth, tech and colony building)

Yeah, agreed here
+10 points is too much for a great prophet
But we should raise the cathedrals to 3 points

And I was also thinking, that we should cap the faith points somewhere
SoI for example is capped at 100
That much faith points won't even happen in most games of RFCE... but still, a cap would be nice

Yeah, agreed here
+10 points is too much for a great prophet
But we should raise the cathedrals to 3 points

And I was also thinking, that we should cap the faith points somewhere
SoI for example is capped at 100
That much faith points won't even happen in most games of RFCE... but still, a cap would be nice

Bulgarian UHV is to get 50, which is about as much as you can get in a good game (the AI can never get that). Only Arabia can perhaps get more, has anyone seen that?

We practically have a "soft" cap, do we really need a "hard" cap?

With orthodoxy as a state religion, actually it is very easy to reach huge numbers. And actually I had about 150 with catholicism once!
IIRC there was even a thread a few months earlier: "200 faith points challenge"
I agree with you, that this won't happen in a "normal" game, so a cap is not that important of course
Maybe it's even fun to have challenges like that

But I would at least cap the bonuses from religious faith. And maybe even 100 faith points is too much for that cap
+10 diplo bonus, -50% unit cost, etc. still sounds too much...

With orthodoxy as a state religion, actually it is very easy to reach huge numbers. And actually I had about 150 with catholicism once!
IIRC there was even a thread a few months earlier: "200 faith points challenge"
I agree with you, that this won't happen in a "normal" game, so a cap is not that important of course
Maybe it's even fun to have challenges like that

But I would at least cap the bonuses from religious faith. And maybe even 100 faith points is too much for that cap
+10 diplo bonus, -50% unit cost, etc. still sounds too much...

It was me who started the "200 faith points challenge" and didn't done by myself. My French got 120, Norse collapsed at 100. Now the FP is capped at 60, this is good, limiting unrealistic game. Now I shall raise another challenge: Gain 60 FP as 4 religion with the same civ in one game.

Another question: if you change state religion, does FP always return to 0?

I think there should be a better algorithm: cities and religious buildings bring "base points", and various event/condition gets you +10%, -x% or +y, -z modifier. This way, in further version, we can add religious events that mess with your empire. Like:

Catholicism prosecutes scholar - 1.suffer research penalty and add faith points; 2. protect scholar and suffer FP and diplomatic loss.

It was me who started the "200 faith points challenge" and didn't done by myself. My French got 120, Norse collapsed at 100. Now the FP is capped at 60, this is good, limiting unrealistic game. Now I shall raise another challenge: Gain 60 FP as 4 religion with the same civ in one game.

Another question: if you change state religion, does FP always return to 0?

I think there should be a better algorithm: cities and religious buildings bring "base points", and various event/condition gets you +10%, -x% or +y, -z modifier. This way, in further version, we can add religious events that mess with your empire. Like:

Catholicism prosecutes scholar - 1.suffer research penalty and add faith points; 2. protect scholar and suffer FP and diplomatic loss.
I haz comment, since this is a historical mod lets stick to events that happened and give related effects

I was only waiting for you to step in with your Papist propaganda :D

I am against creating a limit of 60. I'd rather see 100.

A lot of civs have trouble reaching that high of a mark anyways, and arabia would quickly reach that max, so any Great Prophets they receive would be nearly useless

I agree with youtien, if we were to have a limit of 60 or something, we should revamp the system.

Also do obsoleted buildings give faith points still?

Faith is not lost when a building goes obsolete.

If we go to a cap of 100, we need to rebalance the bonuses, otherwise bonuses get too powerful.

We should agree on max increase of growth, max diplo gain, max stability boost and then adjust the per-point bonus to reach the max at 100. Then we can adjust the amount of Faith given by buildings/saints/wonders to make 100 reachable, but not easily.

We should agree on max increase of growth, max diplo gain, max stability boost and then adjust the per-point bonus to reach the max at 100. Then we can adjust the amount of Faith given by buildings/saints/wonders to make 100 reachable, but not easily.

I like this solution

A square root system suits more I think, like the law of diminishing marginal returns. That wouldn't only hurt large civs like Arabia without capping them, but also benefit smaller civs like Portugal and the Netherlands, who need some aid for their colonial goals anyway.

FP capped at 100, bonuses reduces, saints give 10FP, wonders and cathedrals give 6 and 4 FP respectively.

Portugal has their UP to help them with the colonies (they are supposed to stay Catholic anyway). Dutch will get a FP buff to offset their small size.

A square root system suits more I think, like the law of diminishing marginal returns. That wouldn't only hurt large civs like Arabia without capping them, but also benefit smaller civs like Portugal and the Netherlands, who need some aid for their colonial goals anyway.

I like this

How about the natural log of the faith points is the percent

3 FP is about 10% bonus (tech, wonders, whatnot)
7 is about 20%
20 is about 30%
55 is about 40%
150 is about 50%

not sure how small catholic nations will be compensated (venezia, austria, something else like that)

Lets see how this one works first. Log scale will wait for Beta 7.

I was only waiting for you to step in with your Papist propaganda :D

If he's talking about Galileo let me direct you to Plotinus's post
On Galileo, he was indeed his own worst enemy. It is important to remember that he was condemned not for his belief in heliocentrism but for his insistence that heliocentrism was literally true and could be proved to be literally true. Most people at the time regarded scientific theories as predictive models, not as literal truth (and indeed many scientists to day have the same view). It was Galileo's insistence that in fact his theory could be proved to be true - not to mention his ridiculous of the Pope in his published works - that landed him in hot water. Ironically, of course, Galileo's purported proof of heliocentrism - which revolved around the claim that the tides of the sea are caused by the water sloshing around as the earth wheels around the sun - was complete rubbish. What any of this has to do with the inquisition or the Albigensian crusade is, naturally, quite beyond me.

Uhhhh, lol. You are a real fanatic, aren't you? :mischief:

To put this into relation, Plotinus is a Catholic theologian.

To put this into relation, Plotinus is a Catholic theologian.

Plotinus isn't Catholic :confused:
LightSpectra is the Catholic theologian

One basically has to become militant in the US when there are people who genuinely believe Catholic use blood for wine, believe that Jesuits founded Islam and that the Vatican has a supercomputer in its basement which has a list of all the non-Catholics in the world for nefarious purposes...

Enough trolling. Unless you have something useful to report about the mod, go somewhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

So in Beta 6 the faith points are capped at 100, with +1 per spread, church and monastery, 4 per cathedral, 6 per religious wonder, 10 per saint?
We should definitely get this somewhere in the civilopedia...

10 points per saint can be a bit OP. I usually save my great prophets since catholic bonus is so weak and once i get protestantism I pop them at once.

The bonuses have also been reduced.
For example orthodoxy right now have a max +20 stability with 100 faith points
Not sure on the max amount of the protestant bonus, but it can easily be changed

So in Beta 6 the faith points are capped at 100, with +1 per spread, church and monastery, 4 per cathedral, 6 per religious wonder, 10 per saint?
We should definitely get this somewhere in the civilopedia...

I would want to try a logarithmic scale first. It is just that those points take some time to kick in.

Alternatively, we can count #points per city. That is, the more cities you have, the more faith you need to get the same benefit. A small Empire, but with all faith buildings in each city would get more benefit then a huge Empire with only half the cities converted.

What do you think?

Faith points per city sounds reasonable
But the thing is, that I love to collect more and more faith points in my game. And I think everyone does, it's a nice little plus thing in RFCE.
I cannot imagine getting rid of this

The logaritmic scale is also good, but after a certain number of faith points they will be pretty much useless. It won't be a real difference if you have 70 or 80 points...

So actually I like the linear scale the best. This is certainly a disadvantage for small civs, but we can balance this out by increasing the production or growth modifiers for them.

Doh, I'm such an idiot
Let's make both calculations, and 2 lines for this on the screen
Upper is the Total Faith Points (with no limit of course)
And a new one with Average Faith Points
The total faith points is just for eye candy, the bonus calculation would be based on the average faith points.

One more thing: we have to prevent small civs to easily get the max bonus just because they have so few cities, and luckily popped a great prophet (or to easily max bonuses out after a religion switch with GPs)

Average Faith per City (AFPC), Total Faith for Civ (TFFC)
If AFPC = 6 means that you get the maximum amount of bonus from faith, then we naturally have: min (1, AFPC/6) * max_bonus
To prevent the exploits with small civs, let's make it, that if your TFFC is below 20 you will only get TFFC/20 of your bonus
So, basically with min (1, TFFC/20) * min (1, AFPC/6) * max_bonus we would have a complete system.
Of course the consts 6 and 20 can be further balanced after a few test runs

EDIT: also make it that if faith points are below zero, than the bonus is 0

I think I prefer the logaritmic scale. As AbsintheRed pointed out people like to collect stuff, so the n = x / c figure would be less fun. Faith points get less and less important as typically not all buildings are constructed. A formula like n = x / (c * 0.5) would work, but that gives abasically the same results. as a logaritmic scale. The linear system has two flaws: there has to be a cap, and large empires get huge bonuses.

I propose the following formula: n = x * 0,9^c for each city. Perhaps starting with the 4th city.

EDIT: the n = x / c formula has another major problem, GPs would be far too powerful, unless they add relative value in stead of absolute value (like n = x * 1.2"gp" / c)

I think I prefer the logaritmic scale. As AbsintheRed pointed out people like to collect stuff, so the n = x / c figure would be less fun. Faith points get less and less important as typically not all buildings are constructed. A formula like n = x / (c * 0.5) would work, but that gives abasically the same results. as a logaritmic scale. The linear system has two flaws: there has to be a cap, and large empires get huge bonuses.

I propose the following formula: n = x * 0,9^c for each city. Perhaps starting with the 4th city.

EDIT: the n = x / c formula has another major problem, GPs would be far too powerful, unless they add relative value in stead of absolute value (like n = x * 1.2"gp" / c)

We calculate total FP, but the bonus is considered per city. This gives you intensives to build buildings in all of your cities even the newly conquered ones. We can make the Saint benefit be dependent on the Empire size, note that light-bulb beakers and Great Merchant missions already depend on the Empire size.

Players can still FP-wh0re with wonders and saints and get benefit (at the expense of production, culture bombs, light-bulbs, trade missions and corporations).

Wessel, did you even see my last post? We more or less posted the same time...

Anyway, my answer: I have to admit, I quickly fell in love with having both a total faith points and an average faith points counter :)
Still, having the calculations based on average points is much better for gameplay than a logarithmic scale. I don't want that anything built in one of my late cities basically worth 0.
Also, exponential calculations quickly run out of control. You really want to use 0.9^c?

EDIT: A formula like n = x / (c * 0.5) would work, but that gives abasically the same results. as a logaritmic scale.

And that's just totally wrong ,)

We can make the Saint benefit be dependent on the Empire size, note that light-bulb beakers and Great Merchant missions already depend on the Empire size.

Don't do this
I would hate to see tiny city states with a total faith points of 5 and still having maximum bonus from faith.
If a civ only has 1-2 cities, at least it should struggle for the extra wonders or saints to reach the max bonus

I prefer logaritmic scale. In the beginning when you need fewer faith points for bonus you have a real tradeoff to building units or buildings compared to religious resources. In the later game you can usually spam all kinds of wonders and religious buildings while still maintaining a huge army. Then the faith points count less.

Don't do this
I would hate to see tiny city states with a total faith points of 5 and still having maximum bonus from faith.
If a civ only has 1-2 cities, at least it should struggle for the extra wonders or saints to reach the max bonus

Funny you say this as the most pious civ in the mod is a one-city challenge :)

Ok I'm somewhat confused by the n = x / c system, what exactly do you mean by that? Also would that prevent a civ with 150 points from completely dominating? Also someone threw out its per city? That seems rather complicated to me.

I like the idea of an average system, but I think it would be best used just in the catholic in my opinion (for Holy Roman Emperor, getting incentives from the Vatican, crusades, etc). How could you have an average at 1200 as the Arabs if you're the only Muslim civ alive? Or do we count all as an average (in that case Arabs would have a CLEAR advantage due to their UP).

The catholics don't have a clear ability to be put into a logarithmic formula so I see the average system working well with catholicism (I'd prefer log for the rest). So if you were above the average, more benefits? Is that what you are trying to say?

The average faith points per city is meant only for your cities, not for all cities
So it is (your total faith points / number of your cities)
This way it works the same way for all nations and all religions

Funny you say this as the most pious civ in the mod is a one-city challenge :)

Lol, it is true, I forgot about Rome :)
But let's just stay with the playable civs ,)

Right I think I have to clarify my post. Note that I am not a mathematician, I couldn't find the formula I had in mind. So, here he goes again:

n = number of faith points that is used to calculate the bonus
x = total number of faith points generated by a city
c = number of cities.

My idea was, that each city givess the following number of faith points (n): n = x * 0,9^(c-1). So, the 4th city gives n = x * 0,9^3 = 73% of it's total generated number of faith points, the 5th city gives 66%, the 6th 59% and so on. Even the 21st city uses 14% of it's potential. I was a little ill and tired yesterday so please forgive me my strange ideas.:)

Wessel, did you even see my last post? We more or less posted the same time...

Anyway, my answer: I have to admit, I quickly fell in love with having both a total faith points and an average faith points counter :)
Still, having the calculations based on average points is much better for gameplay than a logarithmic scale. I don't want that anything built in one of my late cities basically worth 0.
Also, exponential calculations quickly run out of control. You really want to use 0.9^c?

I did, it reminded me of the role of GPs, but to be honest I did not understand that formula at all, so I thought it would be wise not to discuss it.:p I see your point about the uselessness of the buildings, but there is a small difference: in my system nothing happens when you construct a new city so it's the players choice to decide whether or not to build them, buildings become very cheap in the late game anyway, whereas in your system (again, if I read your formula in a correct manner, probably you have more knowledge on this topic than I do) you must build those buildings in order not to lower your AFPC.


EDIT:

And that's just totally wrong ,)

Yeah I know.

Right I think I have to clarify my post. Note that I am not a mathematician

Just on a side note, actually I am. At least I study applied mathematics ,)

I see your point about the uselessness of the buildings, but there is a small difference: in my system nothing happens when you construct a new city so it's the players choice to decide whether or not to build them, buildings become very cheap in the late game anyway, whereas in your system (again, if I read your formula in a correct manner, probably you have more knowledge on this topic than I do) you must build those buildings in order not to lower your AFPC.

This is exactly the difference between the 2 methods gameplay-wise.
Personally I want to see your faith points going down (on average of course), if you don't maintain your state religion in your new cities...
Also, what would happen in your method if you decide (after already gaining many faith points in your state religion) that you spread another religion in your cities and build those religious buildings too? Or just put another religion(s) in your new cities? The way you suggested it this has basically no impact on your faith points either, which is very bad for gameplay.

Religious buildings of other religions already count in a negative manner on the FP score, don't they? X would go down just like it does now.

I agree on your point that neglecting faith points should have negative effects. But I also think that somehow each city (once you have 20 FPs) should be able to contribute something to the applied number of FP... nevermind. Just realized that the min (1,TFFC / 20) part does exactly this. Okay, I'm convinced. You win.:)

Where do you look to find your faith points? And what do they actually do for you?

Under the religion panel.

In general you get better diplomacy with allies.
For Catholics, the pope likes you more, so more gold and free buildings. Kind of weak
For Othodox, decreased civic upkeep and increased stability (minimal)
For Islam, increased city growth and decreased unit costs
For Protestants, decreased wonder and colonial project costs and tech costs

Ah, no wonder protestant England was kicking my Portuguese Catholic ass near the end. Is there a list somewhere of more specifics regarding how many faith points = which bonuses?

Ah, looks like I was playing an out of date version (Alpha 11) I just got Beta9 and things are much clearer. I'd still love a list of bonuses.