View Full Version : C2C: My Ideas, Suggestions and Concepts


Praetyre
Apr 02, 2011, 05:02 AM
On suggestion, I've decided to post all my current and future non-technical/critical ideas in this thread, both to help keep discussion focused on more pressing matters in these threads and to provide a place where these ideas can be discussed, debated and preserved for easier reading, should anyone find them of value.

I have seperated out the various ideas I have had over time for incorporation into the Caveman to Cosmos mod into spoilered sections, so as to avoid the "wall of text" syndrome so prevalent with suggestion posts and threads. I will not be simply reposting these earlier ideas of mine, but refining them for easier reading and greater context. My first contribution to C2C was the tweaking of leaderheads to incorporate the new religions and optimize for historically accurate civics preferences, as well as adding a huge amount of new Great People for those longer and/or more modern games.


New/Revised Game Speeds:
While the intent and scope of the C2C mod is not to provide a historical simulator with civilization-specific goals, such as Rhye's, I still find it immersive and enjoyable, even on a cosmetic level, to have a pace of technological and societal development congruent on some level with that of actual human history. This is complicated, naturally, by the difference in research costs effected not only by different game speeds, but different map sizes. Thus far, my testing has been done with a special edit of the Eternity game speed on Gigantic maps, an edit which reduces the "construction factor" to 100 (meaning buildings are built as fast as they are on Standard difficulty) and the "research factor to 175" (the happy medium between the excessive speed I found in 100 and the stagnation of 250).

I personally prefer, possessing as I do a rather potent computer system and the ability to put up with longer turn times in exchange for higher quality and deeper content, to play on Gigantic maps, and am in the process of devising a new preset Giant Earth Map scenario with my preferred game options, that will account for the new Prehistoric starting era. I realize this is not to everyone's taste, so in the event I ever incorporate this speed in the mod, I would have it as a new, specially labelled speed nothing it's intended usage, and ideally, have it as an easily deactivable modular component.

The chief reason for the alteration in building speeds is both because of the influence buildings play in scientific and civilizational development speeds, and because of the default building speeds were designed under a system featuring far, far less buildings than C2C's 1200+. The fundamental dynamics of buildings and what functions they fulfill have been radically altered, specialized and diversified under this new game model, and so a revision of these rules is probably a good place to start in the area of game speed alteration.

Leaving aside those issues for a moment, my speed plan works on a fundamental assumptions that may or may not be correct as of this time of writing, but which the equalization of tech tree costs will no doubt aid in and which my own playtesting seems to confirm, though having only autoplayed as far as 1000 turns as Polynesia, "results may vary".

This assumption is, simply put, that each era, under the conditions that I have set, will take roughly around 500 years. This time was chosen not just based on my playtesting, but because it simultaneously lives up to Marathon claim of each era being as long as a full game, and divides neatly the 9 different era's into Eternity's total of 4500 turns. From this, I calculating what, roughly, in real life the various technological "eras" of C2C would chronologically have corresponded do, coming to these figures:

Prehistoric Era (12,000-3000 BC)
18 years per turn

Ancient Era (3000-500 BC)
5 years per turn

Classical Era (500 BC/AD)
2 years per turn

Medieval Era (500-1400)
22 months per turn

Renaissance Era (1400-1800)
10 months per turn

Industrial Era (1800-1950)
4 months per turn

Modern Era (1950-2050)
2 months per turn

Transhuman Era (2050-2200)
4 months per turn

Galactic Era (2200-3000)
19 months per turn

While initial flaws regarding a 2166 endgame (me being unaware you could have one "interval" slower in months elapsed than the previous nor that you could go back from months to years) have been worked out, one flaw still gnaws: The extreme brevity of the Napoleonic and both World Wars. Under this system, the Napoleonic Wars would last a mere 36 turns, WWI 13 and WWII 18. While it is principally the province of scenarios and mods in their own right (such as The Road to War or asioasioasio's WWII 1939, or even entirely different games like the superb Hearts of Iron series) to give such detailed focus to specific eras, this remains the biggest flaw in my plan.

You could say I should "slow down" the clock in those specific eras, but this designation is quite arbitrary. Why should the clock be slowed down if, say, this era is a time of peace or stagnation? Why should the clock not be slowed down if something of a similar scope and scale happens in, say, 1850 or 1970? The only viable solution I could see to these issues was to abandon my previous restriction of 500 turns per era for something a bit more flexible, one that added a new (interval defined) "era" between the Renaissance and the Industrial era, and slowed down the late industrial/modern era to account for the incredible increase in pace that life, technology and warfare have taken during these eras.

Ultimately, when designing such eras, we must balance the need for intricate strategy that allows things like wars of such a scope to occur with the need for proper pacing and atmospheric consistency. Ideally, one could slow down intervals during times of war, but that is beyond the scope, as far as I know, of what the game speed settings can do, and the attentions of the programming people are better focused on non-cosmetic matters.

Taking inspiration from the flawed but impressively ambitious Empire Earth game, one that I understand has been previously touted by Hydromancerx as a possible inspiration for C2C (I'd recognise the "Caveman" side of the menu any day of the Holocene!), I have created a secondary, more tentative proposal for consideration.

Note that unless otherwise noted, each era still lasts 500 turns:

Neolithic (12,000-5000 BC)
14 years per turn

Copper Age (5000-2000 BC)
6 years per turn

Bronze Age (2000-500 BC)
3 years per turn

Iron Age (500 BC/AD)
2 years per turn

Middle Ages (500-1400)
22 months per turn

Renaissance (1400-1700)
7 months per turn

Imperial Age (1700-1800)
2 months per turn

Industrial Age (1800-1900)
2 months per turn

Atomic Age (1900-2050)
1800 Turns
1 months per turn

Transhuman Era (2050-2200)
4 months per turn

Galactic Era (2200-3000)
19 months per turn

This stretches the total turns to 6800, a bit of a pickle for Mastery-lovers like me, but allows a greater delineation of such periods as that of Sumer, Ancient Egypt, the Age of Discovery and both the Ancient Near East and Greece. Meanwhile, the Napoleonic Wars stretch to a more reasonable 72 turns, WWI to 53 and WWII 73. Plenty of time, especially taking into account increased unit speeds, for all the manouevres, schemes and gambits you could ask for.


Culture Specific Religions Module/Game Option:I wish to emphasise that I would never advocate making any of what I'm proposing here mandatory. It will likely be the most controversial of all of my suggestions, and I understand that many people would not want to use it in their games. It woudl solely be an option for people who want it, much like Revolutions or Barbarian Civs.

My idea is to create:
A: Unresearchable starting techs, based on the ethnic citystyle of a civilization (So, for example, the Mongols would start with Mongol culture, the Romans with European culture, the Americans with Anglo-American culture, the Malinese, Zulu, Ethiopians with African culture, etc.). These technologies would be as follows:
African Culture (Starting tech for Ethiopians, Malinese and Zulu)
Asian Culture (Starting tech for Chinese and Koreans)
Crescent Culture (Starting tech for Assyrians, Babylonians, Israelis and Sumerians)
European Culture (Starting tech for Dutch, English, French and Germans)
Mesoamerican Culture (Starting tech for Aztec, Inca, Maya, Olmec)
Self Explantory Ones:
American Culture
Arab Culture
Egyptian Culture
Greco-Roman Culture
Indian Culture
Japanese Culture
Mongolian Culture
Norse Culture
B: Special projects with a cost of 1 :hammers: which serve no purpose except founding a new religion. These projects would require, as prerequities, both the technology that originally founded that religion AND a specific "cultural" tech from above. These projects would be as follows:
Andeanism (requires Astronomy and Mesoamerican Culture)
Asatru (requires Norse Culture and Ship Building)
Baha'i (requires Crescent Culture and Steam Power)
Buddhism (requires Indian Culture and Meditation)
Christianity (requires Crescent Culture and Theology.)
Confucianism (requires Asian Culture and Code of Laws)
Druidism (requires Druid Culture and Naturopathy)
Hellenism (requires Athletics and Greco-Roman Culture)
Hinduism (requires Indian Culture and Polytheism)
Islam (requires Arab Culture and Education.)
Judaism (requires Crescent Culture and Monotheism)
Kemetism (requires Egyptian Culture and StarGazing)
Mesopotamism (requires Caste System and Crescent Culture)
Mormonism (requires American Culture and Representative Democracy)
Naghualism (requires Mesoamerican Culture and Sacrifice Cult)
Ngaiism (requires African Culture and Livestock Domestication)
Shinto (requires Japanese Culture and Mathematics)
Taoism (requires Asian Culture and Philosophy)
Tengriism (requires Mongolian Culture and Horseback Riding)
Voodoo (requires African Culture and Fundamentalism)
Yoruba (requires African Culture and Music)
Zoroastrianism (requires Crescent Culture and Dualism)

In addition to this, some religions, in a Manhattan Project like manner, would enable others to be built (with the proper technologies first, as usual):
Buddhism->Shinto
Christianity->Mormonism
Judaism->Christianity->Islam->Baha'i


Addendum Regarding Religions:Just a quick little note, actually: I was wondering whether some of the excellent ideas from abbamouse's Realistic Religions mod could possibly be incorporated into C2C, with his permission, of course. It was one of the first Civ IV mods I ever played, and while it no longer works with Warlords and BtS, the main ideas behind it are very interesting and very sound. One of my personal favorites was the reduction of Christianity's spread rate to increase missionary activity and the various modelings of dietary restrictions. Only real issue I can see in implementation is the way he has the food penalties (giving :yuck: and :mad: for particular resources for temple and cathedral buildings to counteract these resources bonuses), since A. There are a lot of buildings i.e. the supermarket, nightclub, grocery etc. that will still outweight these penalties and B. The issue of the "fake" resources that require a combination of resources in city vicinity. Guess those would again be a programmers issue. I see some of his ideas have been incorporated already (religions now give different bonuses, missionaries are renamed) so I figured I might as well put it forward.

Great Person Only Techs:Okay, this time I will quote a post, since it's fairly recent and fairly summative:I like the idea of the GP-only techs and wonders.. for the techs, you could do something like what Hydromancerx was suggesting for RoM's Civ V edition, with these "special" techs representing lost or alternate paths for history. For instance:

Prehistoric: Megafauna Domestication (Both potent and alternate history)
Ancient: Ancient Computing (The Antikythera mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism) writ large: Big boosts to science output and the speed and power of all naval vessels right up to the atomic age. Also greatly speeds up calculation and computer-based technologies like Mathematics, Architecture, Computers, Radar etc.)
Classical: Greek Fire (Enables a new Fire Galley unit, ala Age of Empires, and a new Fire Tower building for the ultimate in pre-gunpowder defense.)
Medieval: Lost Relics (Enables the "discovery" of special items like the Ark of the Covenant, Shroud of Turin, etc. that act as world wonders with enormous benefits for particular religions. Would need at least one wonder for each religion of that time)
Renaissance: Da Vinci Tech (For lack of a better word. Early glider technology and aircraft in the Renaissance)
Industrial: Supertech (For lack of a better word, again. Think something like the early-Dreadnought that is this monstrosity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster).
Modern: Ultraefficient Motor (Something akin to those urban legends about suppressed 200 MPG carburetors. A benefit akin to early Fusion or SMAC's Clean Reactors, with virtually no upkeep costs for engine-based units and greatly increased speed. Downside, of course, is that it would probably reduce the value of fossil fuels...)
Transhuman: Sapient AI (The potential for a global "robot rebellion", with a new faction, ala Planetfall's way of handling the SMAX factions, popping up and seceding from mankind, taking all the robotic units with it.).
Space: Time Travel (Dunno. Always difficult to use as a device without seeming contrived. Maybe some world wonder that enables you to recover any units lost in battle 10% of the time at the base the wonder is in?)



Civic Specific/Great Person Only Buildings:
There are a couple of very minor revisions to three wonders that would restrict them to particular civics. These should all be very self explanatory, but feel free to ask for my reasoning if you wish:
Central Bank: Corporatist, Green, Guilds, Mercantile, Planned, Regulated, Slavery
Universal Healthcare: Subsidized, Socialized
Women's Suffrage: Democracy, Federal, Republic

Under any other civic, these wonders will neither be able to be build nor have any effect.

Per Thunderbrd's proposal for boosting the power of non-Prophet :gp:, I have come up with a list of wonders that, based on historical criteria, should be restricted to the following categories of :gp:.
:culture:Great Artist:culture:
Carhenge
J.S. Bach's Cathedral
Phidias Statue Workshop
Plato's Academy
Rock N Roll
The Sistine Chapel
The Statue of Liberty
:health:Great Doctor:health:
Cure for Cancer
Hippocratic Oath
:hammers:Great Engineer:hammers:
Akshardam
Archimede's Workshop
Brandenburg Gate
Leaning Tower of Pisa
Leonardo's Workshop
Mausoleum of Maussallos
Sultan Qaboos Grand Mosque
The Eiffel Tower
World Trade Center
:strength:Great General:strength:
King Richard's Crusade
Sun Tzu's Art of War
:gold:Great Merchant:gold:
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Bolshoi
Magellan's Voyage
Marco Polo's Embassy
World News Network
:science:Great Scientist:science:
Copernicus Observatory
Edison's Workshop
Einstein's Laboratory
Isaac Newton's College

In addition, I have listed (national) wonders that should be buildable, but not restricted to solely being built by this type of :gp:
:culture:Great Artist:culture:
Amusement Park
Globe Theatre
Heroic Epic
Modern Art Theatre
Movie Studio
Mt. Rushmore
National Epic
National TV Station
:health:Great Doctor:health:
Medical Clinic
Red Cross
Research Hospital
:strength:Great General:strength:
West Point
:gold:Great Merchant:gold:
Amusement Park
Chemical Plant
Fertilizer Plant
Ironworks
National Courier System
National Mint
National TV Station
Recording Studio
Replicator Plant
Rubber Plant
Travel Agency
Treasury
:science:Great Scientist:science:
Computer Center
Deep Space Research Institute
Mind Storage
Nanite Lab
Nano Research Department
National Science Foundation
National Weather Service
Oxford University
Radio Telescope
Replicator Plant
Space Laboratory
Supercollider
:espionage:Great Spy:espionage:
Homeland Security Department
Propaganda Net
Radio Telescope

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 02, 2011, 04:03 PM
I am not a fan of historical limiting games but it should be possible to implement an option to enable your suggested religion changes. It may even be possible to choose your culture when you get the "Cultural Identity" tech for a half way option.

As to GP techs branches, it is possible to restrict a tech by making it require a building. Make that building only buildable by a GP and "bob's your uncle". I wanted to do that with the Mega Fauna tech so that the AI did not waste time researching it.

Hydromancerx
Apr 02, 2011, 05:28 PM
A couple things ...

1. Megafauna Domestication was suppose to be the "Golden Age" tech of the prehistoric era. I have no problem with it being only assessable via Great People.

2. No culture on Earth is made from just one group. Throughout history different groups a have merged into different socialites or splintered off. Also as time goes on the nations evolve and grow different from the ones they once were. I would like to somehow simulate this process beyond the revolutions elements.

One part i plan to do is the whole minor civ element where you can build "embassies" to "fake" civilizations. These add-on to your civlization's culture by adding new units, buildings and/or promotions. Note each embassy is just a wonder so it can be taken over by other civs if they take over your city.

However i would like to try to go beyond even that. One where each civilization starts out more generic and overtime it gets formed into a distinct and unique civilization. I think this can be done with a combo of the civilization wonders and the traits mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=416391).

By having dynamic traits that adjust as you plan the game it will help you form the type of civilization you want it to be. Then if you add in techs that require specific buildings then you can have even civ specific tech paths.

The down side is that you will have to give up the current pre-set civs and leaders. Each civ would not have a unique building or unit. However though proper research, wonder buildings and a little luck you could recreate the civ the way they are now, but most likely you will end up with a completely unique civilization.

This would also mean we can do away with the super huge add-on civilization packs. This would not be optional since it would basically overhaul the entire system. So if we are going to do this we better be sure we want to do it.

Hydromancerx
Apr 02, 2011, 06:25 PM
Culture Specific Religions Module/Game Option:I wish to emphasise that I would never advocate making any of what I'm proposing here mandatory. It will likely be the most controversial of all of my suggestions, and I understand that many people would not want to use it in their games. It woudl solely be an option for people who want it, much like Revolutions or Barbarian Civs.

My idea is to create:
A: Unresearchable starting techs, based on the ethnic citystyle of a civilization (So, for example, the Mongols would start with Mongol culture, the Romans with European culture, the Americans with Anglo-American culture, the Malinese, Zulu, Ethiopians with African culture, etc.). These technologies would be as follows:
African Culture (Starting tech for Ethiopians, Malinese and Zulu)
Asian Culture (Starting tech for Chinese and Koreans)
Crescent Culture (Starting tech for Assyrians, Babylonians, Israelis and Sumerians)
European Culture (Starting tech for Dutch, English, French and Germans)
Mesoamerican Culture (Starting tech for Aztec, Inca, Maya, Olmec)
Self Explantory Ones:
American Culture
Arab Culture
Egyptian Culture
Greco-Roman Culture
Indian Culture
Japanese Culture
Mongolian Culture
Norse Culture
B: Special projects with a cost of 1 :hammers: which serve no purpose except founding a new religion. These projects would require, as prerequities, both the technology that originally founded that religion AND a specific "cultural" tech from above. These projects would be as follows:
Andeanism (requires Astronomy and Mesoamerican Culture)
Asatru (requires Norse Culture and Ship Building)
Baha'i (requires Crescent Culture and Steam Power)
Buddhism (requires Indian Culture and Meditation)
Christianity (requires Crescent Culture and Theology.)
Confucianism (requires Asian Culture and Code of Laws)
Druidism (requires Druid Culture and Naturopathy)
Hellenism (requires Athletics and Greco-Roman Culture)
Hinduism (requires Indian Culture and Polytheism)
Islam (requires Arab Culture and Education.)
Judaism (requires Crescent Culture and Monotheism)
Kemetism (requires Egyptian Culture and StarGazing)
Mesopotamism (requires Caste System and Crescent Culture)
Mormonism (requires American Culture and Representative Democracy)
Naghualism (requires Mesoamerican Culture and Sacrifice Cult)
Ngaiism (requires African Culture and Livestock Domestication)
Shinto (requires Japanese Culture and Mathematics)
Taoism (requires Asian Culture and Philosophy)
Tengriism (requires Mongolian Culture and Horseback Riding)
Voodoo (requires African Culture and Fundamentalism)
Yoruba (requires African Culture and Music)
Zoroastrianism (requires Crescent Culture and Dualism)

In addition to this, some religions, in a Manhattan Project like manner, would enable others to be built (with the proper technologies first, as usual):
Buddhism->Shinto
Christianity->Mormonism
Judaism->Christianity->Islam->Baha'i


Addendum Regarding Religions:Just a quick little note, actually: I was wondering whether some of the excellent ideas from abbamouse's Realistic Religions mod could possibly be incorporated into C2C, with his permission, of course. It was one of the first Civ IV mods I ever played, and while it no longer works with Warlords and BtS, the main ideas behind it are very interesting and very sound. One of my personal favorites was the reduction of Christianity's spread rate to increase missionary activity and the various modelings of dietary restrictions. Only real issue I can see in implementation is the way he has the food penalties (giving :yuck: and :mad: for particular resources for temple and cathedral buildings to counteract these resources bonuses), since A. There are a lot of buildings i.e. the supermarket, nightclub, grocery etc. that will still outweight these penalties and B. The issue of the "fake" resources that require a combination of resources in city vicinity. Guess those would again be a programmers issue. I see some of his ideas have been incorporated already (religions now give different bonuses, missionaries are renamed) so I figured I might as well put it forward.


I would also suggest we base a system on human migration. Based upon which cultures you pick would ultimately result in what type of civilization you become. This would both be the first migrations out of Africa as well as chance for later migrations via the colonial era or even ones into space.

I have no idea how such as system would work but I guess that's why we are having this discussion.

EDIT: Here is the world religions timeline (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=278176&d=1294466940) too that i posted before along with the orginal post.

Ok so strategyonly and I have been working on making room for additional techs by separating each column with spaces. While RoM and AND had a lot of techs there were some ares that were left out. This post is ment to brainstorm for each area. Please chime in if you have ideas or comments about this subject.

* = Already in the Game

Religion Techs
- Shamanism (Req Personal Adornment AND Tribalism AND Petroglphs)*
- Tengriism (Req Horseback Riding AND Shamanism)

- Druidism (Req Naturopathy AND Mysticism)
- Yoruba (Req Folk Dance AND Mysticism)

- Hinduism (Req Sedentary Lifestyle AND Polytheism)
- Kemetism (Req Stargazing AND Polytheism)
- Mesopotamism (Req Pottery AND Polytheism)
- Asatru (Req Ship Building AND Polytheism)
- Hellenism (Req Athletics AND Polytheism)

- Naghualism (Req Sacrifice Cult AND Calendar AND Polytheism)
- Andeanism (Req Construction AND Polytheism)

- Jainism (Req Meditation AND Hinduism)
- Buddhism (Req Meditation AND Hinduism)
- Confucianism (Req Meditation AND Code of Laws)
- Taoism (Req Meditation AND Philosophy)
- Shintoism (Req Ancestor Worship AND Polytheism)

- Sikhism (Req Hinduism AND Monotheism AND Clockworks)

- Ngaiism (Req Livestock Domestication AND Dualism)
- Zoroastrianism (Req Duelism AND Monotheism)

- Judaism (Req Mesopotamism AND Monotheism)
- Islam (Req Education AND Monotheism)
- Christianity (Req Theology AND Judaism)
- Voodoo (Req Yoruba AND Christianity AND Fundamentalism)
- Mormon (Req Representative Democracy AND Christianity)
- Bahá'í (Req Steam Power AND Islam AND Christianity AND Buddhism)

- Scientology (Req Globalization)

Arg ok I have been looking over all this stuff all day. I will post the other subjects later. So here is just the religious techs. I tried to pick the most logical. Here is also a time line for the techs I found on the web.

There is also some room for other religious related techs too I think.

I don't think this would work exactly this way but the core idea is the same.

Praetyre
Apr 02, 2011, 08:57 PM
Interesting.. I'm not sure how easy it would be to give you a free tech on cultural identity, but restrict it to a narrow range of techs. Plus, citystyles still wouldn't change, so even if you had the French using Mongol culture, their cities wouldn't be full of yurts and tents.

I quite like the idea regardng "embassy" wonders, partially because it reminds me of the fantastic Europa Barbarorum mod for Rome: Total War. There was a complex system of empire establishment where your society could, based on the buildings it built and the dates, go from nomadic to sedentary, go through specific reforms for particular cultures (the various Parthian and Roman ones, for instance) and, when conquering a foreign city, gradually establish it as going from a simple provisional government, to a fiefdom, to a vassal, to an ally etc.

For these "Embassy" buildings, I'd advise taking a leaf from the "fake resources" and adding cultural units based on the surrounding terrain. A Mongol Embassy, for instance, would require tundra, horses and desert in the city vicinity, while a Spanish Embassy would require desert, plains and ocean.

I am personally a strong skeptic of the single-origin hypothesis, but nonetheless, I do like the overall idea of developing cultures, though I'd organize it along slightly different lines meself, and require some cultures to have "crosses" between others to develop (Southeast Asia would require both East Asia and India, for instance, while on the other hand, I don't see why Central America would need North America to develop). My own custom scenario relied on the future BarbCiv and Revolutions to simulate divergence and migration, but your model intrigues me. Partly, this is because I ended up picking my (19) starting factions based on more general cultural groupings, the Spanish representing Iberians, the Zulu representing southern Africans, the Malinese west Africans, the Sumer eastern Semitic peoples, the Arabs not only themselves but desert peoples like the Berbers, etc...

Of course, that was based on a start date of 12,000 BC. Since we seem to have gotten the whole errors caused by Civ4GameSpeed.xml out of the way, there's no reason we couldn't have an earlier start date if we wanted, particularily, as thunderbrd recently remarked to me, given the "discovery dates" of our technologies. Taking a few for sample:

Language: There's a lot of debate about this, and some evidence it predates modern man himself, but since this mod deals with modern man, 100,000 BC is the earliest we can affix (though the whole Toba disaster complicates things). It also depends on what we really call "language". Since this tech enables the national language wonder, it's probably a lot more advanced and distinct than the stuff tens of thousands of years ago.
Weaving: Wiki says it may have been known in the Paleolithic, but that's a term as broad as Austrolipithecus to 10,000 BC. Ah, the joy of ambiguity...
Basketry: It's linked to weaving, but earliest evidence places it at 8000 BC.
Prehistoric Art: 60,000 BC or so. The Lascaux Cave Paintings certainly predate 12,000 BC.
Spear Making: At least 400,000 BC. However, again, that's pre "wise wise man", so the 100,000 BC clause applies.
Fire Making: Ditto.
Cooking: Anywhere from 2,300,000 BC to 10,000 BC, though most researchers say from 40,000 down, which fits pretty well for us.
Hunting: Even chimpanzees have hunting troops, so like Language, it seems to come down to definition.
Canine Domestication: Around 15,000 BC. So, seems to fit.

As you can see, there are things that manage to map out pretty well, anthropologically speaking, and others that are ambigiously dated or defined. Since the Prehistoric Era is one of the first things most players will see of the mod, and one of it's biggest "draws" (haven't heard of any other big mod doing it, while Final Frontier and the like take you into the space age...) I think a second look at the Prehistoric era, might be good, if for no other reason than I find it weird how Stone Throwers are almost immediately rendered obsolete by Slingers, which kind of kills the whole prehistoric, hunter-gatherer atmosphere.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 02, 2011, 09:32 PM
For these "Embassy" buildings, I'd advise taking a leaf from the "fake resources" and adding cultural units based on the surrounding terrain. A Mongol Embassy, for instance, would require tundra, horses and desert in the city vicinity, while a Spanish Embassy would require desert, plains and ocean.

As we have seen recently, building a building with terrain limits works but having a unit build it in a city will ignore terrain requirements.

Praetyre
Apr 02, 2011, 09:49 PM
I wouldn't suggest having the Embassies buildable by :gp:, if that's what you mean. I'd have them as just plain old World Wonders, that Great Engineers can hurry along if they like, but that no Great Person can build themselves.

Hydromancerx
Apr 03, 2011, 12:21 AM
Interesting.. I'm not sure how easy it would be to give you a free tech on cultural identity, but restrict it to a narrow range of techs. Plus, citystyles still wouldn't change, so even if you had the French using Mongol culture, their cities wouldn't be full of yurts and tents.

Well you could link it like this. Each civ could start out with its own unique cultural tech. Then upon getting cultural identity different techs could open up based on the first tech you had. For instance lets say the civ you picked was from Asia. They would get like an Asia based starting tech. Then upon cultural identity you could then open up specific civilizations wonders to choose from such as Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Whomever own the Embassy would then get that culture for that city.

Using some dependency chains I also think you could have one as your "major" culture. For instance Chinese Embassy + Palace could open up a 3rd wonder that gives the Unique building to every city you own.

Note this would only work if you had on limited wonders since unlimited wonders would mean you could make unlimited major cultures. In addition there would also be an exploit of getting say getting a whole bunch of embassy wonders in one city. However that would use up your wonder slots and I suppose would balance out since you would not be able to make all the other cool wonders that depend upon the palace such as the treasury.

I quite like the idea regardng "embassy" wonders, partially because it reminds me of the fantastic Europa Barbarorum mod for Rome: Total War. There was a complex system of empire establishment where your society could, based on the buildings it built and the dates, go from nomadic to sedentary, go through specific reforms for particular cultures (the various Parthian and Roman ones, for instance) and, when conquering a foreign city, gradually establish it as going from a simple provisional government, to a fiefdom, to a vassal, to an ally etc.

Well remember we can link buildings (and wonders) to civics and even religions. I could see specific "embassy" wonders that only become available if you have the right civics or combination of civics as well as religion or both! Honestly it would only be limited by the amount of effort we put into it since buildings are super easy to make.

For these "Embassy" buildings, I'd advise taking a leaf from the "fake resources" and adding cultural units based on the surrounding terrain. A Mongol Embassy, for instance, would require tundra, horses and desert in the city vicinity, while a Spanish Embassy would require desert, plains and ocean.

I believe we had a topic on this before. Let see if I can find a quote. Here we go ....

Thanks. Happy Holidays to you too! :newyear:

I also still have my gears turning on what to do with the "City State (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9872870&postcount=7)" idea for Civ4. I would use a similar combo resource method where if you have 2 of the right resources in your city vicinity then you can research a wonder to build an embassy with a "City State" civilization. In doing so you gain access to their special buildings, units and promotions.

Tech Level
Ancient = Obsidian
Classical = Copper
Medieval = Iron
Renaissance = Sulphur
Industrial = Coal
Modern = Oil
Trans-Human = Uranium

Here is an idea example on how it could work ...

Apache Embassy
Req Resources: Sulphur AND Horses
Req Terrain: Desert

Special Units
- Apache Cavalry (Replaces Calvary)

Building
- Apache Cactus (+1 Food from Desert tiles)

Promotions
- Apache Raiders (200% More Gold from Pillaging)
- Apache Endurance (Cavalry get +1 Movement)

Obviously this kind of stuff should be adjusted but it would give a new level of game play if you could pick up new cultures into yours.

It would not have to be those specifically but you get the idea. We could also link them to city vicinity buildings so for instance maybe a bonus building like "Salmon Nets" (Fish + Prime Timber) and "Blueberries" (Wine + Coffee) should allow for the Nootka Embassy.

I am personally a strong skeptic of the single-origin hypothesis, but nonetheless, I do like the overall idea of developing cultures, though I'd organize it along slightly different lines meself, and require some cultures to have "crosses" between others to develop (Southeast Asia would require both East Asia and India, for instance, while on the other hand, I don't see why Central America would need North America to develop). My own custom scenario relied on the future BarbCiv and Revolutions to simulate divergence and migration, but your model intrigues me. Partly, this is because I ended up picking my (19) starting factions based on more general cultural groupings, the Spanish representing Iberians, the Zulu representing southern Africans, the Malinese west Africans, the Sumer eastern Semitic peoples, the Arabs not only themselves but desert peoples like the Berbers, etc...

Well i think we have to think in a wide range of cultures over time. For instance for the Americas they could all come from the "Clovis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture)" culture and then radiate out into other paleo-indian groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Indians). That's not to say we cannot have new cultural radiation based upon the random map you are on.

Of course, that was based on a start date of 12,000 BC. Since we seem to have gotten the whole errors caused by Civ4GameSpeed.xml out of the way, there's no reason we couldn't have an earlier start date if we wanted, particularily, as thunderbrd recently remarked to me, given the "discovery dates" of our technologies. Taking a few for sample:

Honestly i could care less about the actual date as long as we have enough "turns" then that's fine.

On a side note we could also have say a "Neanderthal Embassy" for early game where it could give you the "Neanderthal" units that were shown before. Perhaps even the embassy could go obsolete by sedentary lifestyle too.

Language: There's a lot of debate about this, and some evidence it predates modern man himself, but since this mod deals with modern man, 100,000 BC is the earliest we can affix (though the whole Toba disaster complicates things). It also depends on what we really call "language". Since this tech enables the national language wonder, it's probably a lot more advanced and distinct than the stuff tens of thousands of years ago.
Weaving: Wiki says it may have been known in the Paleolithic, but that's a term as broad as Austrolipithecus to 10,000 BC. Ah, the joy of ambiguity...
Basketry: It's linked to weaving, but earliest evidence places it at 8000 BC.
Prehistoric Art: 60,000 BC or so. The Lascaux Cave Paintings certainly predate 12,000 BC.
Spear Making: At least 400,000 BC. However, again, that's pre "wise wise man", so the 100,000 BC clause applies.
Fire Making: Ditto.
Cooking: Anywhere from 2,300,000 BC to 10,000 BC, though most researchers say from 40,000 down, which fits pretty well for us.
Hunting: Even chimpanzees have hunting troops, so like Language, it seems to come down to definition.
Canine Domestication: Around 15,000 BC. So, seems to fit.

The prehistoric techs were gone over and over. And while not perfect they are at a balance of game functionality and historical accuracy. Neither of which are perfect but they do at least make sense most of the time. For instance its hard to deal with techs that apes and hominids already had such as scavenging, tool making, etc. Thus those were done more as a logical progression of what tech fits with what than accuracy. Remember we also have to work with the rule s of the game and its elements. If we could have an ape Spore-like creature level that comes before the game I would but we don't really have that. I mean sure we could have say a starter unit that wanders around without a city an would have to reveal goody huts to get techs but that would not be fun since you would almost certainly die most of the time from wild animals.

As you can see, there are things that manage to map out pretty well, anthropologically speaking, and others that are ambigiously dated or defined. Since the Prehistoric Era is one of the first things most players will see of the mod, and one of it's biggest "draws" (haven't heard of any other big mod doing it, while Final Frontier and the like take you into the space age...) I think a second look at the Prehistoric era, might be good, if for no other reason than I find it weird how Stone Throwers are almost immediately rendered obsolete by Slingers, which kind of kills the whole prehistoric, hunter-gatherer atmosphere.

Where would you move the slinger too? Note if you play on "snail" speed the rock throwers are around for awhile even when bee-lining to "weaving". Note that the rock throwers were put in AFTER the slingers were already in place. So unit dynamics could still change.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 03, 2011, 01:38 AM
You do know that there is a tag in the Building XML which says you can't build this building in a city with any of a list of buildings, don't you? So you could say building Embassy X can't be built in a city with Embassy A, B or C.

Hydromancerx
Apr 03, 2011, 04:13 AM
You do know that there is a tag in the Building XML which says you can't build this building in a city with any of a list of buildings, don't you? So you could say building Embassy X can't be built in a city with Embassy A, B or C.

Oh i totally forgot!! BTW is there a limit to that? Because if we are making like tons of new embassy wonders I don't want to be maxing out at a 5 building block limit.

I will have to look at the Sports mod, I know it has some examples because Afforess made those buildings/wonders.

Hydromancerx
Apr 03, 2011, 04:09 PM
If we are going to try an embassy system with the main civs we will need to know what we currently have for the Unique Units and Unique Buildings. I think thy should be updated anyways so its good we are going over them ...


American Empire
Unit: Navy SEAL (Marine)
Buildings: Mall (Grocer), Victory Garden (Community Garden) [The mall seems lame since there can be malls in other places. This should probbly be made a building for any civ.]

Arabian Empire
Unit: Mamaluke (Knight)
Building: Madrassa (Library)

Assyrian Empire
Unit: Battering Ram (Catapult) [We already have rams, they need a new unit]
Building: Ekal Masharti (Barracks)

Aztec Empire
Unit: Jaguar (Light Swordsman)
Building: Sacrificial Alter (Courthouse) [Don't we already have this? They need a better building.]

Babylonian Empire
Unit: Bowman (Archer) [This is a lame named unit. Something should be redone.]
Building: Garden (Coliseum) [A garden, really? This seems like it should be better.]

Byzantine Empire
Unit: Cataphract (Knight)
Building: Hippodome (Theater) [This seems like other empires should have a Hippodrome like the Romans or Greeks]

Celtic Empire
Unit: Gaelic Warrior (Light Swordsman)
Building: Dun (Walls)

Chinese Empire
Unit: Chukonu (Crossbow)
Building: Pavilion (Theater)

Dutch Empire
Unit: East Indiaman (Galleon)
Building: Dike (Levee)

Egyptian Empire
Unit: War Chariot (Chariot)
Building: Obelisk (Monument)

English Empire
Unit: Redcoat (Rifleman)
Buildings: Stock Exchange (Bank), Victory Garden (Community Garden) [The stock exchange seems like it should be a building for every empire.]

Ethiopian Empire
Unit: Oromo Warrior (Musketman)
Building: Stele (Monument)

French Empire
Unit: Musketeer (Musketman)
Building: Salon (Observatory) [Why is this replacing the observatory?]

German Empire
Unit: Panzer (Tank)
Building: Assembly Plant (Factory)[This should be avilable to all empires.]

Greek Empire
Unit: Phalanx (Axeman)
Building: Odeon (Coliseum)

Hittite Empire
Unit: Hittite Chariot (Chariot)
Building: Iron Forge (Forge) [This should be something else.]

Holy Roman Empire
Unit: Landshnecht (Pikeman)
Building: Ratheus (Courthouse)

Incan Empire
Unit: Quechua (Clubman)
Building: Terrace (Granary) [This should be allow for all empires.]

Indian Empire
Unit: Fast Worker (Worker)
Building: Mausoleum (Jail) [Why is this replacing the jail?]

Iroquois Empire
Unit: Mohawk Archer (Lonbowman)
Building: Longhouse (Courthouse)

Japanese Empire
Unit: Samurai (Maceman)
Building: Shale Plant (Coal Plant) [This should be allow for all empires.]

Khmer Empire
Unit: Batista Elephant (War Elephant) [This should require "Ancient Ballistics" and be its own unit.]
Building: Baray (Aqueduct)

Korean Empire
Unit: Hwacha (Catapult)
Building: Sewon (University)

Malinese Empire
Unit: Skirmisher (Archer) [This should be for all empires.]
Building: Mint (Forge) [This should be for all empires.]

Mayan Empire
Unit: Holkan (Spearman)
Building: Ball Court (Coliseum) [This should be available for the Aztecs and other Mezo-American empires]

Mongolian Empire
Unit: Keshik (Horse Archer)
Building: Ger (Stables)

Native American Empire [This empire should probably be taken out and replaced by individual tribes.]
Unit: Dog Soldier (Axeman)
Building: Totem Pole (Monument)

Ottoman Empire
Unit: Janissary (Musketman)
Building: Hammam (Aqueduct) [Why is the replacing the aqueduct?]

Persian Empire
Unit: Immortal (Chariot) [Why is the replacing the chariot?]
Building: Apothecary (Grocer) [We already have a building like this.]

Portuguese Empire
Unit: Carrak (Caravel)
Building: Fetoria (Customs Office)

Roman Empire
Unit: Praetorian (Light Swordsman)
Building: Forum (Market) [Why is this replacing the market? This should be linked to a civic or something.]

Russian Empire
Unit: Corssack (Calvary)
Building: Research Institute (Laboratory) [This should be available for all empires.]

Siamese Empire
Unit: Battle Elephant (War Elephant)
Building: Ho Trai (Library)

Spanish Empire
Unit: Conquistador (Cuirassier)
Building: Citadel (Castle)

Sumerian Empire
Unit: Vulture (Axeman)
Building: Ziggurat (Courthouse)

Viking Empire
Unit: Berserker (Maceman)
Building: Trading Post [This should be available for all empires. Maybe replace this with a "Funeral Pyre" unique building.]

Zulu Empire
Unit: Impi (Spearman)
Building: Ikhanda (Barracks)


Overall I think we should have some overall of units especially if its regional. For instance Asian empires using similar units native to Asia or the same kind of boats that are non-European.

I also think under the new system all unique units and buildings should either be either stand alone (not replacing buildings) or if they do replace something it should make sense why.

Making such as system should hopefully allow for more customability to make your empire unique and different from any of the current standard empires.

Praetyre
Apr 05, 2011, 03:36 AM
How about turtle boats for the Koreans, ala AOE II: The Conquerors? Galleys with massively boosted defense, basically. And while Prehistoric techs being off the table doesn't bother me, one things does: Bronze is way, way too close to iron in the tech tree. It's like one tech apart at most. There was an 1500 year gap between em, and they were pivotal in ushering in the Ancient and Classical eras, respectively. I'd actually be in favour of making it one "tier" ahead of the big three of Slavery, Livestock Domestication and Megalith construction. That, or we need a new Chalcolithic era, though that would be a pain in the arse to implement...

Not to mention monarchy. It's been around since, what 2000 BC? (assuming you discount legendary Chinese/Japanese/Sumerian genealogies...) and yet it's placed around the founding of Christianity. Seems a bit off, somehow. Classical and Ancient both need reworks, imo, as to balance their lengths with the rather lengthy Prehistoric era.

Praetyre
Apr 14, 2011, 07:43 AM
Sorry to double post, but there's been quite a few updates over the last week and it's been made a bit more prominent with whatsallthisnow's idea to split the Renaissance into the Colonial Era. After extensive testing and tweaking on my other project (a GEM with what came down to be 4 starting civs with preset starting positions, plus my personally preferred game options), I've decided to merge my game speed and, currently, tech cost edits with this project as a sore of modmod/scenario hybrid. No reason to give a damn about historical progress if you're playing on a random map, after all, and dates are just cosmetic niceties. Also, there's the whole complex interplay of map sizes and difficulty settings, one which I'd rather not tackle till I've got a fair degree of modding experience under my belt.

Still, my overall goal to equalize era times has continued, albeit along the looser, more Empire Earth esque lines I mentioned as a possibility earlier. Following my successful experimentation with switching in and out of months in the AD years and having one "increment" have fewer turns per month than the other, I've come up with a much more cogent, though also much more lengthy, set of turns. The Prehistoric era required truncation, but otherwise, my predictions regarding each era lasting 500 turns seem to have panned out reasonably well. I've now, due to the basic fact it's far easier to divide 600 turns into 12 month years, increased the average era time to 600. However, this is by no means uniform, as you will see under my new dating plan:

The Prehistoric Era
Prehistoric is a teensy bit longer than 650 turns, but that's largely due to it being longer and the fact that BC can't work in months. It's also longer in real terms and a big draw for many people to the mod, so I'm ok with giving it a little extra emphasis.

Paleolithic (50,000-12,000 BC)
400 turns
1140 months per turn
95 years per turn

As you can see, I've moved back the start date. Principally for a more "natural" feel and partly so I have an excuse to discount American civs without seeming like some Old World colonialist. This was also a motivation for me to merge it with my scenario project, as I didn't want to impose my 50,000 BC starting date for all scenarios. I'd have moved it back even earlier, but the whole Toba thing gives that a kick in the pants, and some of the early techs predate Homo sapiens sapiens anyway, so it'd be kinda pointless.

Neolithic (12,000-6000 BC)
250 turns
288 months per turn
24 years per turn

Originally, this went to 4000 BC. The reasons for the change will be explained under Ancient's heading.

The Ancient Era

Upon giving this era a closer look over, I'm firmly convinced it should be renamed the Copper or Chacolithic era. The technologies here are *not* the kind of developments I associate with bronze age civilizations (writing, for instance, was invented in 3400 BC by the Sumerians, and the era's new end date coincides nicely with both Judaism and bronze working being invented around 2000 BC. I also think bronze and iron working are far, far too close to each other (there's a 1400 year gap between em. Might as well have feudalism leading to computers), but that's more of a matter for the folks with far greater talent than mine in this field.

Copper Age (6000-2000 BC)
250 turns
192 months per turn
16 years per turn

I deliberately chose to shorten this era, both to compensate for the increased length of the Classical era and because, frankly, not a lot of interest really happened during this period. It's not a draw or particularily interesting in it's own right like Prehistoric, and the actual breadth of change in society is more gradual and mundane than the grand tales of Egypt and Babylon.

The Classical Era

My most critical mistake was assuming this era was intended to be a reference to what most historians term classical antiquity, an era lasting roughly from the time of ancient Greece's height (800-400 BC) to the so called "dark" ages. Due to the whole mess-up with the ancient era above, it's being lengthened, and so should really be considered somewhat of two eras in and of themselves.

Bronze Age (2000-500 BC)
500 turns
36 months per turn
3 years per turn

Fairly lengthy, but then, we are covering everything from Egypt to Homer, and I'd really like to live up to Marathon's promise of "each era as long as a full game" in more than artifically lengthening building and tech times to absurd and unrealistic degrees (especially with the absolutely colossal number of buildings in this mod).

Iron Age (500 BC/AD)
500 turns
24 months per turn
2 years per turn

Ditto. I err a bit on the side of mathematical neatness with this era, since it's really more of a representation of the Roman era, but hey, let's not be too Eurocentric. China and India were hitting some major strides during this period, too, and they form half of my starting scenario ensemble.

The Medieval Era

Business as usual. Not tested anything at this era and beyond, partly because of the fact the Industrial era keeps crashing on me. It's not the Industrialism crash, since that's quite late in the era. I recall a crash from Bahai when discovering Steam Power, but maybe it's just those damn Mormons. (Incidentally, on a totally random note, I'd pay to see their rather boring "Elder" unit changed into two guys on bicycles. Maybe we could organize a match between em and the Nicole Kidman lookalike advertising Scientology.)

Dark Ages (500-1000)
300 turns
20 months per turn

And here we enter into the heady days of months. I hope this is enough time to cover the Byzantine period, Norman and Viking invasions, rise of Islam and the beginning of the Crusades.

Middle Ages (1000-1400)
300 turns
16 months per turn

I went with 1400, since most sources I'm reading tell me it started for 1300 in Italy, but 1400 for the rest of Europe. Fits with Printing Press and arquebuisers, anyway. And from what I hear, late Medieval period is the worst for slowdowns, so it'll feel a lot longer anyway.

The Renaissance Era

Standard length. A bit lopsided year wise, but you'll see why.

Renaissance (1400-1700)
300 turns
12 months per turn
1 year per turn

Dead easy. The age of discovery, wooden ships, iron men, pirates and the Taj Mahal.

Imperial Age (1700-1800)
300 turns
4 months per turn

A kind of Empire Earth derived arbitrary time period to give more equal airing to the Enlightenment and the various wars of independence (be they of the Yankee Doodle Dandy or Mariachi flavor).

The Industrial Era

This is a bit of a strange one, since it seems to cover everything from the days of railroads and steam ships to the era of the Red and Brown Menaces.

Industrial Age (1800-1900)
600 turns
2 months per turn

No brainer. Principle developments here were technological and social, but that's the beauty of Revolutions and Civics. There's also a couple of wars in Darkest Africa and, of course that Corsican. Also, a couple more rebellions in the Americas (north and south in both senses).

Pre-Atomic Age (1900-1950)
600 turns
1 month per turn

Another vaguely defined era lifted from EE. This 600 turn regimen is proving damn convenient. Not only does it allow be to cover everything from the twilight of the Victorian age to the Cold War, it allows me to neatly increase all tech costs by a simple 2.4 regimen, rather than the more complex X+(X/5) regimen I used for the 600 turns eras. WWI lasts around 48 turns and it's sequel exactly 73, for those interested. Even on a Gigantic map, with the speed and technology of modern units, plus the infrastructure you'll have built up my then, you could march from Gibraltar to Moscow in no time.

The Modern Era

Originally, this one stretched all the way to 2050, but a further look at the techs (UAV's and Space Tourism) at the end of Modern and the fact Cloning and Biofuels usher in the Transhuman era, led me to shift it back. Cuts back total turns, anyway.

Atomic Age (1950-2000)
600 Turns
1 months per turn

I'd have used Modern Age, but that would have been redundant, and inconsistent with the EE-derived name of the previous era.

The Transhuman Era

The heady days of clone armies, piconanogigatomisteamomatic-superexpafragiliciousexpialadocius technologies and, for some reason that escapes me, giant military robots. And China. Don't forget China.

Transhuman Era (2000-2050)
600 turns
1 months per turn

I'll be damn surprised if we have Organic Cities by 2050, but some folks keep going on about some technological thingamadoodah that's going to send our :science: sky high in 2030, and I'd rather not have to split this into the Age of Gore and the Age of Repaid Debts.

The Galactic Era

Galactic Era (2050-3000)
600 turns
19 months per turn

Obviously, anything beyond this point is more or less completely arbitrary, but 3000 ha a nice ring to it, and the Futurama-lover in me says go with it. I might double it when the era is actually in the game as more than some placeholders, but we'll teleport across that solar system when we come to it.

Now onto the scenario: It currently consists of just an edited version of the GEM- 28 civs no presets map we have, which is marked as being for ROM 2.7. Not encountered any problems with it thus far, other than some long turn times around the 900 mark (which I understand is chiefly determined by the number of players and cities, and isn't as bad once you pass Medieval, plus there's one less player to calculate since the slow times came for me while turning my civ over to AI control for testing) and it seems to work well enough. It'll only really get into swing when BarbCiv gets back (Barbarian cities seem to be popping up in the right places, like in the Americas, Europe and Southeast Asia), and I sometimes think Revolutions isn't tough enough, since in my tests as Sumer Egypt's expanding all the way down into the Congo.

The current gameplan starts with 4 civs:
China (Qin Shi Huang)
Egypt (Hatshepsut)
India (Asoka)
Sumer (Gilgamesh)

These civs were, of course, the first to develop, and the only ones really around by 2000 BC. I'm letting the other ones branch off as new barbarian civs and split off via revolutions, which brings me to my next, more complex point:

Is there some way to set it so that within a particular range of tiles, BarbCivs that emerge there will always be Civ X? So, for instance, any BarbCiv in the British Isles will become England (or the Celts, if you set it to have multiple possibilities). And in a similar vein, for certain revolutions to be, for lack of a better word, culturally linked? Like, England spawns America first, then Celts, then Zulu, then Ethiopia, then Mali, then it goes random again, China spawns Khmer, Siam, Mongolia, Japan Korea, Sumer spawns Assyria, Babylon, Israel, Arabia, and so on? Not a top priority for developers, of course, but I can see it working on a similar basis that Rise from Erebus does with faction starting in particular climates.

Of course, it's all a moot point till BarbCiv gets fixed, but might as well put it out there as a possible addition.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2011, 04:07 PM
Great job Praetyre! This is looking really nice. Especially the spoiler section.

As for the bottom scenario part, what about the Americas and Oceania? There were people there by 2000 BC, just not at the height of civilization yet. Are you just going to represent them as barbarians?

Praetyre
Apr 14, 2011, 10:45 PM
Interesting you should bring that up. I actually have 3 different versions of the scenario, Ultralite being the one I use for playtesting, and based on the 2000 BC criteria.

It's not based on human habitation per se, but an organized civilization. Info at this time is fairly scant, but Sumer's been a united kingdom since, what, 2900 BC, if you discount their myths about rulers who reigned for thousands of years? Egypt's Old Kingdom starts around 2686 BC. India has the Indus Valley civilization at 3300 BC and it comes to fruition at 2600 BC. China's Xia dynasty begins around 2070 BC. Other than that, the only other civilizations I can find are ones that aren't represented in C2C, and I'm not holding my breath expecting them to be, like the Minoans, Elamites, Kassites or the Nubians, or civilizations that originate from Central Asia and hadn't migrated into the area by either start date, such as the Hittites.

Lite being based on a 1500 BC criteria, and thus including:
Chinese- Qin Shi Huang
Egypt- Hatshepsut
Greece- Leonidas
India- Asoka
Korea- Wang Kon
Olmec- Po Ngbe
Persia- Cyrus
Sumer-Gilgamesh

The last of my current scenarios is one that I don't give any special designation beyond PraetyrEarth, but has some more unusual criteria. In an effort to give equal representation to the various people and cultures of the world (good Freud, this sounds like some UNESCO pamphlet...), and to avoid scenarios like my aforementioned Egypt-conquers-the-Congo, "civilizations" represent ethnic groups and cultures rather than specific nations, which flows a bit better with the Prehistoric starting date. Thus, we have:

The Celts, led by Brennus, representing... the Celts!
The Chinese, led by Qin Shi Huang, representing... the Chinese!
The Egyptians, led by Hatshepsut, representing... the Egyptians!
The Ethiopians, led by Zara Yaqob, representing... the first of our broader groups, the East Africans! Might as well give them credit for being the cradle of the human race...
The Greeks, led by Leonidas, representi- representing? THIS IS THE MEDITERRANEAN!
The Indians, led by Asoka, representing South Asians (don't blame me. There's no "Punjab" civilization and Nepal and Sri Lanka have all the odds of Tannu Tuva.)
The Japanese, led by the incredibly evil looking Jingu (seriously, she looks like's she's about to give an impromptu disembowlment and serving your innards up ginsu style), representing... the Japanese! In one scenario, they established a massive empire with indirect vassals as far as the Vikings, but I guess the "Co-Prosperity Sphere" just started off a little early.
The Koreans, led by Wang Kon, representing... the Koreans! Ah, the joys of hyper-monoethnicity...
The Malinese, led by Sundiata Keita (who looks like the son, not the great great etc. grandpappy of Mansa Musa), representing West Africans. And some of the Congo, assuming the Zulus don't snatch it first.
The Olmecs, led by Po Ngbe, representing Mesoamerican peoples. There are some strange fringe theories about Olmec origins, but I'm picking them here because they were more or less the precursor civilization for all other Mesoamerican peoples.
The Russians, led by Ivan IV, representing Slavic peoples. If these were the Paradox Interactive forums, I'd be dead before I finished typing this, but hopefully the Polish lobby won't blame me for their absence, though I may become an honorary tovarisch for those who swing more towards a Pax Россия approach.
The Sumerians, led by Gilgamesh, representing Eastern Semitic peoples. Be you Akkadian, Assyrian, Elamite, Hebrew, Phoenician or plain old Sumerian, there's something for everyone here.
The Vikings, led by Ragnar, representing Nordic peoples. Rather funny to see a Swedish king among their leaders, but whatchagonadoo.

Only omissions, chiefly for balance and speed reasons, were the Aborigines (never really had a civilization in the way we'd think of it), Arabs (who didn't really develop until the 6th century), Persians (they'd have too much time to expand beyond their means, and consequently cramp the style of the Sumerians and Egyptians) and the Polynesians (never really unified). I also originally had the Chinook as the earliest (Pacific Northwest, after all) Native American tribe, but cut them for speed reasons. I've seen barbarian cities pop up in the right places in the Americas anyway, so they'll be a BarbCiv holdover.

Lastly, the only other issue that came up for me is that Korea kept conquering China, but that's why I've switched to the 4 civ model. Easier on balance (ho ho ho) and my turn times. Never had a a crash with any of them though, which is good.

Another, totally unrelated idea that came to me recently, regarding :gp:- in the same vein as the Great Farmer unit being able to plant various agricultural resources, how about beefing up Great Artists by giving them them the self-consuming ability to add either a single Hit Movie, Hit Single or Hit Musical resource to the city they're in? Always seemed a bit odd these resources remained fairly static and that only recently you can really get a proper movie distribution dynamic in via the Red Curtains corporation. While Hollywood certainly produces the lions share of modern Western cinema, it's not like France, Hong Kong, India, Japan or even Nigeria haven't made their fair share of contributions to international cinema. That, and the Great Artist unit feels a bit useless at times, since his "culture bomb" ability is just a supersized version of the one you get with easily producable (wait a minute...) Celebrities.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 15, 2011, 03:07 PM
Addendum Regarding Religions:[SPOILER]Just a quick little note, actually: I was wondering whether some of the excellent ideas from abbamouse's Realistic Religions mod could possibly be incorporated into C2C, with his permission, of course. It was one of the first Civ IV mods I ever played, and while it no longer works with Warlords and BtS, the main ideas behind it are very interesting and very sound. One of my personal favorites was the reduction of Christianity's spread rate to increase missionary activity and the various modelings of dietary restrictions. Only real issue I can see in implementation is the way he has the food penalties (giving :yuck: and :mad: for particular resources for temple and cathedral buildings to counteract these resources bonuses), since A. There are a lot of buildings i.e. the supermarket, nightclub, grocery etc. that will still outweight these penalties and B. The issue of the "fake" resources that require a combination of resources in city vicinity. Guess those would again be a programmers issue. I see some of his ideas have been incorporated already (religions now give different bonuses, missionaries are renamed) so I figured I might as well put it forward.

As you can see with the Mormon religion currently in C2C the use of :yuck:/:mad: does not work well since you can't control what resources you get. To me if reduces the fun of getting a religion. Also, why would it have the same effect in a city in which 1% of the population are of that religion as in one where 100% are of that religion.

I think the way that each religion has special wonders if it is your state religion, is good. I also have no problem with a wonder from a previous state religion still being active under a new state religion. Although I think it should be less effective.

I am currently working on the religions, though very slowly. To adjust the temple, monastery and cathedral buildings to have a varied effect depending on if they are of the state religion or not.

So far I have only done a first pass on the Druid religion. Splitting the food bonus from the temple and monastery and making it a vicinity upgrade, ie to get the bonus you need the resource in the vicinity of the city. The monastery food upgrades also require Druidism as the state religion.

Praetyre
Apr 17, 2011, 12:03 AM
Good point.. is there any way to make it so having a particular state :religion: outright disables the usage of a particular resource? Maybe not an XML thing, but it would pretty much circumvent the whole issue of supermarket bonuses and so on, and makes sense with what you're saying about tiny minorities (there's Hindus here in Auckland, yet most Aucklanders don't mind McDonalds) exerting undue influence with buildings. Reminds me of the new religion system (specifically, the fact religions are assigned to citizens in a cities population) in the upcoming D.U.C.K.S. mod for Civ V.

Chief reason for these penalties isn't to make religion annoying, as much as it is to make it a bit easier to model some of the historical trends and reasons behind it (Islam and Judaism aren't that popular in Europe, where pig farms are a big part of the economy, while it's not so much a concern in the Middle East) as well as to grant, much as Abbamouse's original mod did, religions more uniqueness, personality and flavour, rather than just being a series of generic culture bonuses (though I noted some are getting more distinct positives, like Scientology principally being a :gold: maker).

Also, on another minor, off topic note (no pun intended), but one that will no doubt be far easier to implement, how about music for the Prehistoric era? Bizarre a source as it seems, there's a couple of tracks from the greatly underrated Gex: Enter the Gecko PS1 platformer game that would seem to fit the era quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQPVCBvH818
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0ZhxGdAUM

Though, the soundtrack of (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goBGBb41piI) Populous fits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC0h7DcVifg&feature=related) so well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGG9RGgIxgY&feature=related) I'm at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okGM9LB6wDo&feature=related) a loss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWm59RYtSEU&feature=related) for words (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IzLoK2s9KA&feature=related).

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 17, 2011, 12:20 AM
I prefer Sirocco's Civilisation Part I myself.

Edit Druid and Shaman are about food. Asartu (or whatever Norse) is about fighting. While Egypt-Myth is about knowledge, the wonders at least.

Dietary restrictions for the religions eg pork are often more to do with health and climate. Pork goes off faster in warm climates, and the parasites in pork transfer to humans if it is not cooked properly.

VineFynn
Apr 21, 2011, 02:15 AM
Post moved from main C2C thread, see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288570&page=89) for some previous debates/trivia on suggestion matter
Anything that is already included just ignore. These are simply suggestions that you could include in the game, that probably won't be implemented anyway.

Fixes/Minor/Infrastructural Changes:

1. I have a problem with the automatic turns system which means that I can only fully automate my turns, instead of being allowed to simply idle for the set period of turns as well.
2. Rename the bonus resource "oil products" to "petro-chemicals" and possibly add hydrogen as a "virtual" resource (similar the synthetic rubber and the like, expect without quantity), one which is simply aquired if you have a coastal city in the modern age. It can be used for the fusion reactor, fusion bombs, clean private and public transport, all sorts of things. However, without immediate explanation of acquisition, it might cause over complications.
3. While running BtS 3.19 with current (15-4-2011) C2C, I occassionally (at least once a turn) get a message mentioning something like this: cannot find emun tag for CIVICOPTION_FUTURE It doesn't crash the game, but is very annoying (Could it be a code leak from base RoM with the future category of civics?):confused:
EDIT: I don't get this anymore, but I'll keep it just in case.
4. I also have a problem with the space ship button while in a space race. Whenever I click on it, there is no popup or window, it simply gives me an error window saying something about a nuke manager (I wouldn't be surprised if it was). I'll see if I can attach a screenshot.
EDIT: I still can't access it, but no error window pops up now.
5. When you are in the Galactic Era, your era is shown as Galactic Era Era on the clock.
6. I suggest that you add Power Lines to the list of buildings with production speed increased by Public Works

Suggestions:

1. The requirement that a coastal city is owned to build a fusion reactor (or as mentioned earlier having hydrogen), as pure fusion requires hydrogen, and H2O is water, etc (At least the requirement of two/three ground water pumps).
2. Could you add an unit/age bias for the turn automation AI? If you're in the Future era, you don't want to have your AI building bowmen when you only have time to build marines and tanks in your tight schedule for war.
3. I'd like to see the AI start actually building up a pre-war arsenal of nukes and bioweapons, and have oppressed nations and vassals do that sort of thing in a WW2 sort of scenario. It would be great.
4. A-bomber planes could be replaced by MOAB bombers later in the transhuman era as ICBMs become more readily avaliable. MOAB bombers are high damage moderate movement planes capable of delivering multiple high damage strikes in a single turn, with the added bonus of being reusable. Essentially they are more efficient than A-bombers.
5. Stealth bombers/supersonic planes are half as likely to have their attack neutralized/decreased by air defenses than other planes.
6. Rename the "Treasury" national wonder the "[Federal] Reserve". You could use the treasure resource as an instant gold store bonus or if you are a dirty capitalist you could be able to convert the gold bonus to production points.
7. The addition of a pure fusion bomb that emits no fallout but actually destroys the city in the way that razing does and anything in the eight adjacent tiles. Same requirements as a fusion reactor.

I will now present you with a system of prerequisties you could use for several of the wonders that would organise and clean up the national wonders section of the city build menu. It would probably be incredibly tiresome to do this, and might restrict the players freedom. It's completely up to you.

Banks
Bank -> "[Federal] Reserve Bank" -> "Central Bank" + 3 banks -> Wall Street + International Monetary Fund + 5 Banks -> World Bank
Factories | = separated
Cement Mill/Brewery| Chemical -> Biofuel/Fertilizer/Rubber Plants| Aluminium Factory -> Filling Factory
Laboratories
2 Laboratories/Observatories/Reseach Institutes -> Space Laboratory + Radio Telescope -> Deep Space Research Institute
Epics
Heroic Epic -> National Epic

You get the picture.

EDIT: i've also attached some revised civilopedia xmls. place the xmls in Assets/XML/Text. I have no problems with it. Here is the link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=288455&d=1303803939) You could also consider adding the AND LH Pack at this link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=381219)

If you do look at this, just have a think about it. It's all in good will.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 21, 2011, 02:47 AM
I will now present you with a system of prerequisties you could use for several of the wonders that would organise and clean up the national wonders section of the city build menu. It would probably be incredibly tiresome to do this, and might restrict the players freedom. It's completely up to you.

Banks
Bank -> "[Federal] Reserve Bank" -> "Central Bank" + 3 banks -> Wall Street + International Monetary Fund + 5 Banks -> World Bank
Factories | = separated
Cement Mill/Brewery| Chemical -> Biofuel/Fertilizer/Rubber Plants| Aluminium Factory -> Filling Factory
Laboratories
2 Laboratories/Observatories/Reseach Institutes -> Space Laboratory + Radio Telescope -> Deep Space Research Institute
Epics
Heroic Epic -> National Epic

You get the picture.

If you do look at this, just have a think about it. It's all in good will.

You could do these yourself. They are just XML changes and so are the easiest to release as a mod to a mod.

Step 1. Create a folder in the Assets/Modules folder with your name. Define that folder to the MLF file in the Modules folder as described in the thread Tutorial - Adding Entries to MLF file (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329056).

Step 2. Copy the building schema file from the XML/Buildings folder.

Step 3. Create your mod building infos file. I usually copy the whole thing from the XML/Buildings folder and delete the buildings I am not interested in.

Step 4. Just make your changes for each building. Since C2C uses the WoC standard for XML you only need to include those bits you are changing from the original file. So that the only tags you will need for these changes are the

BuildingClass
Type
PrereqBuildingClasses
BuildingClassNeededs


The first identify the building. BuildingClassNeededs indicates if the building required must be in the city or not. PrereqBuildingClasses is used to say how many of each prerequisite building must be present in your nation.


<PrereqBuildingClasses>
<PrereqBuildingClass>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_XXXX</BuildingClassType>
<iNumBuildingNeeded>2</iNumBuildingNeeded>
</PrereqBuildingClass>
</PrereqBuildingClasses>
<BuildingClassNeededs>
<BuildingClassNeeded>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_XXXX</BuildingClassType>
<bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
</BuildingClassNeeded>
</BuildingClassNeededs>


There is usually a limit of 5 different buildings mentioned in the lists.

Note. Still have to add the bit about not allowing a building to be in the same city as another but have to go now.

Thunderbrd
Apr 28, 2011, 11:13 AM
I've been trying to get through reading this thread for days now.

It covers too much in one thread, while so many of these ideas deserve their own!

But, to touch on a few points.

Praetyre, your timeline is fantastic! Absolutely a brilliant piece of work!

Hydro, not so sure about this embassy concept. I mean, in some ways I like it, but in others, shouldn't embassies be limited to the civilizations you know? But then that kinda goes against what it appears your trying to do, which is a nice concept for reworking UUs and UBs.

I would propose an alternative, which is to melt down the UU and UB system entirely. Remove the whole concept of it mattering what 'civilization' you pick. Make it just a name. Keep some open slots unfilled for UUs and UBs.

Then, take every UU and UB we have and really analize what it is about that civilization that gave that civilization access to this unique thing. Then make a very complex chain of requirements for each UU and UB that determines whether we may add one to our limited list of selected UUs and UBs.

These should not be easy to qualify for, most out of reach of any choices, relying more on some random factors in the map generation, such as: if capital city has two sources of iron and produces more than X starting experience, then that nation may select Praetyres to fill one of its UU slots.

This might be a bit more complicated from a programming angle, but I think it could be done.

Embassies, could then become a way to establish a link to another nearby civilization and adopt one of their selected UUs or UBs.

This way, we never have the same civilizations represented twice. Gone is our limited concept of playing those civilizations that developed on earth thanks to earths unique features, replaced by the completely unique civilizations that will rise on our new worlds.

I also disagree that having a starting wandering camp is a bad idea. I think its absolutely necessary to a good model of the starting eras. If we make it so that the camp itself is rather tough, and if every time it moves it collects the resources from the tile it just moved onto (rather than limiting it to what it can get from 'goody huts') and make it so that it can use gathered production to 'purchase' units and upgrades (proxy buildings that are parallels to the ones you would build in that era and when the camp finally becomes a settlement those buildings are granted immediately to the city) and gold funnels directly into research, than we should have a very realistic Paleolithic and Neolithic era. If anyone has ever played the Barbarians mod that came stock with Warlords, you will know what I mean. I think it could all be done in python as well.

I'm sure there's more to comment on given so many discussions here at once, but I'll leave these for consideration for now.

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2011, 03:23 PM
@Thunderbrd

Please re-post any Embassy stuff here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419773).

Don't want to clutter his thread too much.

Praetyre
Jul 11, 2011, 02:16 AM
Sorry to dig up an old thread like this, but better that than deprive folks of a single, up-to-date source on my meager predilections.

A particular issue has arisen, dealing both with gameplay and my own personal PraetyrEarth scenario project. While every other era is stellar in both breadth, pacing and historical accuracy (my only real complaint would be that there ought to be more "chokepoint" technologies to prevent bizarre situations like a civilization that has Lasers but not Algebra), the Ancient era has always proven somewhat of a quandary in both of the aforementioned respects. It's always been the shortest of all the eras in my speed-era-year gameplan, and figures, much like the tree itself, as an awkward mix of the Chalcolithic with a tiny bit of Sumeria and Egypt at the end. While the two ends of the era are chronologically sound (leading from Neolithic advances into those specifically related to the promotion of a Sedentary Lifestyle, and with Monotheism and (formerly) Bronze Working sitting squarely around 2000 BC. There's extremely few civilizations to speak of at this time and all rolls sort of quietly about in a sort of equivalent of Age of Empires Tool Age (I'd probably die of ecstasy if tha game's soundtrack makes it into the Ancient Era).

The problem though, comes with the blending. The Ancient Era is really two eras, much as the Industrial era is really the Victorian era blended with the first half of the 20th century. But unlike the 19th century and it's unparalleledly bloody political fallout, these two eras are at best an awkward union, and at worst the historical/game design equivalent of two rivalrous siblings feuding over positions in a bunk bed. Matters get even worse when we factor in the colossal chasm between some of the Classical era technologies (Alphabets, currency (which should appear practically immediate next to trade), insurance, and monarchy predates Abraham by well over a millenium, and Code of Laws and Construction (what does this do that Shelter Building and Masonry don't already?) are as far apart from Buddhism as the stirrup is from the steam engine.

While I understand that C2C is not meant to be a Rhye's style historical simulator, this has practical implications for gameplay as well. A player is going to find his bronze-based military obsolete almost immediately with the current structuring of that technology versus it's iron successor. The entire Ancient Era currently feels more like a chore, a dull recess between the primal novelty of the Prehistoric and the sword-and-sandals charm of the Classical. This is not intended as an insult or a meaningless whine against this otherwise magnificent mod, but as a bridge to constructive criticism and reform, especially now that most of the tech tree eras have been filled out, which gets us down to revision, redrafting and testing.

Thus, I propose some food for thought in the form of these suggestions:

Writing and Bronze Working should be the chokepoint technology leading into the Ancient Era, not Slavery, Livestock Domestication and Mysticism. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, but those who don't record it have not begun it. Both should sit around x23 in the chart.
Ancestor Worship, Copper Working, Mining, Pottery and Stargazing should all be moved back to the Prehistoric. Ancestor Worship and Pottery should succeed Ceremonial Burial, while Stargazing should probably follow Shamanism, though I wouldn't be averse to it preceding it, either. Copper Working should follow Metal Casting, which should follow Mining, which in turn should follow Sedentary Lifestyle. Obsidian Weapons should correspondingly be moved back to succeed Warfare.
The Wheel should replace Pottery in it's current position in the tech tree. Trade should immediately follow it.
Aristocracy, Monarchy, Military Training and Priesthood should require Caste System. Code of Laws should immediately succeed Writing and Monarchy, in turn.
Alphabet should immediate succeed Writing.
Currency should immediately succeed Trade.
Iron Working and Philosophy should be the key techs to enter the Classical age. Democracy should still follow Philosophy, but for obvious reasons would sit at x30 rather than x32.


These are just some ideas that jump to mind. Feel free to critique, suggest, discuss etc. if you want.

Hydromancerx
Jul 11, 2011, 03:45 AM
@Praetyre

One major problem i see is your goal of "historical accuracy". Which history and by whom? European history played out much differently than say Asian history or even the Americas. Chronologically the Americas were way behind in tech level by the time the Europeans came around. Likewise some civilizations never developed key technology such as the Americas lacking Horses and the Wheel or Hawaii lacking metal for a Copper Age.

I then you throw in the fact the player can play any way they want. They can be land locked and forget about sea techs for quite a long time. Thus rather than what happened on Earth we should think "what sort of techs would you need to get this particular tech"?

As for your specific suggestions ...

1. The Ancient Era chokepoint is suppose to be Sedentary Lifestyle. Note that that meant things like Animal Husbandry and Megalith Construction. Going backwards that also ment that to make megaliths you would need a huge workforce which worked well to include slavery. Which is whys its there. Alternatively i wanted Megafauna Domestication to be the (Slavery OR Megafauna Domestication) for Megalith Construction, however SO said it would not work. Note that the Ancient Era has become more of Late Stone Age, Copper Age and Bronze Age all rolled into 1.

2. Prehistoric Era is already so huge and you want to move more techs back? Also why would Copper Working come after Metal Casting? What metal would they be casting if not copper?

At any rate here is the tech tree (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&output=html). We went over this tons of times when making these eras. I don't really want to have to re-do them all again.

A diagram o flow chart would be nice if you are serous on wanting to redo things.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jul 11, 2011, 04:53 AM
@Praetyre I agree that there are some flaws in the tech tree as it stands and would like to make some changes also. I also agree that the Prehistoric -> Ancient -> Classical era spread and boundaries aren't quite right.

There has been confusion as to what each era represents. Or at least I have been confused so have not spoken up. I assumed that

Prehistoric = Wood, Stone and composite tools
Ancient = Copper and Bronze tools
Classic = Iron age +


@Praetyre

One major problem i see is your goal of "historical accuracy". Which history and by whom? European history played out much differently than say Asian history or even the Americas. Chronologically the Americas were way behind in tech level by the time the Europeans came around. Likewise some civilizations never developed key technology such as the Americas lacking Horses and the Wheel or Hawaii lacking metal for a Copper Age.

I then you throw in the fact the player can play any way they want. They can be land locked and forget about sea techs for quite a long time. Thus rather than what happened on Earth we should think "what sort of techs would you need to get this particular tech"?

As for your specific suggestions ...

1. The Ancient Era chokepoint is suppose to be Sedentary Lifestyle. Note that that meant things like Animal Husbandry and Megalith Construction. Going backwards that also ment that to make megaliths you would need a huge workforce which worked well to include slavery. Which is whys its there. Alternatively i wanted Megafauna Domestication to be the (Slavery OR Megafauna Domestication) for Megalith Construction, however SO said it would not work. Note that the Ancient Era has become more of Late Stone Age, Copper Age and Bronze Age all rolled into 1.

2. Prehistoric Era is already so huge and you want to move more techs back? Also why would Copper Working come after Metal Casting? What metal would they be casting if not copper?

At any rate here is the tech tree (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&output=html). We went over this tons of times when making these eras. I don't really want to have to re-do them all again.

A diagram o flow chart would be nice if you are serous on wanting to redo things.

2. Gold.

Btw, Since the AI doesn't know where resources are, I thing the revele for copper should come well before "Copper Working". Same for the other resources.

Praetyre
Jul 11, 2011, 05:21 AM
My assumption was that Prehistoric represents the Paleolithic and Neolithic (12,000 or 50,000 in my particular scenario BC-6000 BC), the Ancient the Chacolithic and Bronze Ages (6000-500 BC, the age of Mesopotamia and other Semitic civilizations like the Assyrians, Akkadians, Israelites et. al, Egypt, the Olmecs and Xia/Shang dynasty China) and the Classical age the Iron Age (500 BC/AD, "Classical Antiquity", with Hellenes in Europe, Persians and Alexandrian satrapies in the Middle East, Zhou through Southern and Northern dynasty China and most pre-Inca Mesoamerican peoples).

As for crowding the Prehistoric era- I agree to an extent with such a criticism, but I think the best solution to it is twofold- to decrease the cost of the Prehistoric era technologies to make that era last proportionately with the others while increasing costs to lengthen eras like the Classical, and making sure growth rates are kept in good proportion (for instance, the recent Disease thread has some good suggestions which could allow for possibilities like the Justinian plague or the Spanish influenza epidemic to throw the player a sort of reverse-Golden Age curve. Also, some new technologies could be in order for the Ancient and Classical eras, like I mentioned. To some extent, the same applies to the Medieval era too, but given the relative scarcity of written records from that time and the constant barbarian invasions, it's understandable that era would seem somewhat scant.

The point regarding different technologies is also taken, but these civilizations were much more recent in formation and development than the European ones. Had the Olmecs continued throughout the Iron Age, I have no doubt they could have developed a civilization to rival Rome or the European powers that would eventually colonise that area of the world. The Hawaiians, being restricted to a few islands in the Pacific and having only existed as a unified political entity for a brief period during the very early Industrial era, seem an unlikely candidate, metal or otherwise, for any sort of globe-spanning kingdom. In C2C terms, these would be Barbarian Civs that would have started at the Ancient era and stagnated due to diseases (in the case of the Olmec) and lack of population space (in the case of the Hawaiians). China did experience a long period of technological stasis under the Ming Dynasty, but this was due to a deliberate Confucian policy of avoiding potentially unstabilising factors emerging in the political field, rather than the scientific ineptitude of the Chinese people. Otherwise, European and Asian technological developments are not dissimlar, though with the "barbarian" tribes of Europe managing to use their resources (and pillaging a truckload of scientific knowledge from the Romans, no doubt, as the Romans did with the Greeks) to catch up with the ancient "Oriental despotisms". It's all a matter of what resources you have and how late you enter the party.

VineFynn
Jul 12, 2011, 11:47 PM
I would like to say that the whole months and even weeks each turn was achieved in WW2 1939 mod for Civ 4 bts.
Just saying.

Praetyre
Jul 13, 2011, 02:53 AM
Indeed it was, and I'm sure it would be easy to put it into C2C but outside of these specialized scenarios, there's no era that calls for it. Assuming you have been building up properly, there's no reason that 600 turns couldn't have as many events, wars, developments etc. as the real 1900-1950 or 1950-2000 periods did. Especially with the speeds your units will be moving with all the intercity infrastructure and airlift technologies you should have built up by that point.

VineFynn
Jul 13, 2011, 03:23 AM
Indeed it was, and I'm sure it would be easy to put it into C2C but outside of these specialized scenarios, there's no era that calls for it. Assuming you have been building up properly, there's no reason that 600 turns couldn't have as many events, wars, developments etc. as the real 1900-1950 or 1950-2000 periods did. Especially with the speeds your units will be moving with all the intercity infrastructure and airlift technologies you should have built up by that point.

Well, yes, I was just saying that with your Revised game speeds the months per turn system was implemented, and I was saying a place you could get the system from incase you didn't know how.
Not that I doubted you ;)

Praetyre
Jul 13, 2011, 05:53 AM
As far as I know, C2C has always worked on a months per turn basis, or at least as long as I've been using it (since about version 9, I think). In any case, the game speeds have been further revised since last posting, seeing as they are part of a private project of mine I probably won't release barring big public demand for it. The overall number of turns, particularily in the Classical era, has been increased by about 30-40%, though depending on where things go with the Ancient era I may transfer some turns from Classical to Ancient rather than having Ancient at a piddling 500 like it is now.

strategyonly
Jul 16, 2011, 03:38 AM
UPDATE Version 14 is out as of 3:15 am, a brand new way to play the game.

strategyonly
Aug 03, 2011, 04:31 AM
UPDATED 2 Aug 11, 4:15 a.m.

Some of the changes include, almost ALL new terrain, water, coastal waves, etc.

Lots of tweaks to the dll, to IMPROVE turn times, and especially the way the AI NOW works, really bug change on that, need info on the way they are working now.

Brand new way of Culture for each and every civ, has there own way of working the situation were they are placed on a map, with the resources that they have in vicinity.

Added Australia to the core mod as an Oceania Culture.

HALF the size of the old mod, which also means again better turn times.

This is only 1/8 of what "we" have done from version 14 to 15

Hydromancerx
Jun 13, 2012, 05:17 PM
Great Person Only Techs:Okay, this time I will quote a post, since it's fairly recent and fairly summative:


Civic Specific/Great Person Only Buildings:
There are a couple of very minor revisions to three wonders that would restrict them to particular civics. These should all be very self explanatory, but feel free to ask for my reasoning if you wish:
Central Bank: Corporatist, Green, Guilds, Mercantile, Planned, Regulated, Slavery
Universal Healthcare: Subsidized, Socialized
Women's Suffrage: Democracy, Federal, Republic

Under any other civic, these wonders will neither be able to be build nor have any effect.

Per Thunderbrd's proposal for boosting the power of non-Prophet :gp:, I have come up with a list of wonders that, based on historical criteria, should be restricted to the following categories of :gp:.
:culture:Great Artist:culture:
Carhenge
J.S. Bach's Cathedral
Phidias Statue Workshop
Plato's Academy
Rock N Roll
The Sistine Chapel
The Statue of Liberty
:health:Great Doctor:health:
Cure for Cancer
Hippocratic Oath
:hammers:Great Engineer:hammers:
Akshardam
Archimede's Workshop
Brandenburg Gate
Leaning Tower of Pisa
Leonardo's Workshop
Mausoleum of Maussallos
Sultan Qaboos Grand Mosque
The Eiffel Tower
World Trade Center
:strength:Great General:strength:
King Richard's Crusade
Sun Tzu's Art of War
:gold:Great Merchant:gold:
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Bolshoi
Magellan's Voyage
Marco Polo's Embassy
World News Network
:science:Great Scientist:science:
Copernicus Observatory
Edison's Workshop
Einstein's Laboratory
Isaac Newton's College

In addition, I have listed (national) wonders that should be buildable, but not restricted to solely being built by this type of :gp:
:culture:Great Artist:culture:
Amusement Park
Globe Theatre
Heroic Epic
Modern Art Theatre
Movie Studio
Mt. Rushmore
National Epic
National TV Station
:health:Great Doctor:health:
Medical Clinic
Red Cross
Research Hospital
:strength:Great General:strength:
West Point
:gold:Great Merchant:gold:
Amusement Park
Chemical Plant
Fertilizer Plant
Ironworks
National Courier System
National Mint
National TV Station
Recording Studio
Replicator Plant
Rubber Plant
Travel Agency
Treasury
:science:Great Scientist:science:
Computer Center
Deep Space Research Institute
Mind Storage
Nanite Lab
Nano Research Department
National Science Foundation
National Weather Service
Oxford University
Radio Telescope
Replicator Plant
Space Laboratory
Supercollider
:espionage:Great Spy:espionage:
Homeland Security Department
Propaganda Net
Radio Telescope


I think that perhaps the GP should be able to make them but not be limited to them. Such as the Heroic Epic can be both built and made by a GP.