View Full Version : C2C - Maintenance Adjustments


Hydromancerx
Apr 25, 2011, 03:43 AM
This thread is involves an issue Thunderbrd pointed out in C2C. This thread is ment to work out the details so we can better balance maintenance. This mainly focuses on buildings but also possibly issues with guilds and corporations. Here are some past posts about the issue ...

I've been wanting to chime in on this subject for a while now. In fact, waaay back from when you did your Fire Brigades mod.

I do all I can to avoid building ANY building with an upkeep percentage increase. This is because the perception of these increases doesn't seem too bad when you initially get the ability to build these buildings. But as stated, when corporations begin to spread they become ultra lethal overnight. Its not so bad since you can destroy the buildings once corporations come around but that's a very time consuming and potentially buggy process, so its better to just not build them, graveyards, public pools, fire halls, etc... all of it. I avoid it all and try to solve happiness and unhealth problems through other means. Because if I don't, the upkeep will destroy my economy down the road. I mean, if you build just a Fire Brigade in every city it will literally cost you thousands of gold per round when corporations are fully spread.

This means that while the concept you're working under appears balanced at first, thanks to getting some gold bonus buildings to balance things out, in the long run, it doesn't.

The idea of upkeep does include bureaucracy at work but it also includes crime rate and the effect of chaos (thus why courthouses reduce % upkeep). The only way to go back to rebalancing these buildings is either to give us enough buildings that reduce upkeep percentage or to give them a flat rate gold upkeep. The latter seems a good suggestion considering that this will make them a bit more appropriate for the earlier game too. That would make for an easier way to balance them overall as you can put into play a roughly equivalent subtraction of gold to the additions of gold you've included. In the early stages, the percentage upkeep actually does very little and is not costing enough.

At the moment, I'm at the tail end of the rennaissance and I'm pulling over 3k gold per turn on 100% research on Deity level play (increased to this level gradually). Since corporations aren't in play yet, I have very little upkeep and a lot of buildings bringing in gold. Once I get corporations out there, if I'm not careful with what I choose to build, I'll drop down to about 80% research to stay in the positive. In simple BtS play, corporations, if done correctly, will give me a net profit.

I love a lot of the new buildings but this issue really needs addressing and reconsidering! It should not be better to avoid building water departments and fire brigades than it is to build them. At the moment, it is better not to build them and allow unhealth if needbe.

I like your idea of negative gold to represent "Taxes" instead of "maintenance". Would you mind tracking down all the maintenance buildings you think that should be changed so I know what to change? That would really help me fix things.


Sure... I'l have to go through the civopedia later tonight to identify them all. Another thought may be reflective of what you were originally intending... -Gold/population (so long as its not TOO drastic (like in measurements of .1 to 1 depending on the effectiveness of the building.). Or -% gold (not commerce and probably somewhere between 1-5% and balancable by other buildings). Either of thse would replicate the growing cost for expanding need without interfering with the corporation structure.

However, I'm not certain this couldn't lead to some xml errors but its worth a shot anyhow and possibly reparable by adjusting the data type of a given number or boil things down to a min 1 or 0 in the final equation before it causes problems... if I look up my c++ references I can figure out how to make a few simple changes that would allow this if errors are being generated.

Do you think i should go straight -gold like how farms give straight + gold or do you think it should be -% gold?

In addition how much maintenance should each building be adjusted? Should it be a straight conversion of maintenance value to gold value or should it be reduces or increased, and by how much?


As for the first question there, I was thinking -1 gold per +5% maintenance as it currently stands. Keep in mind this is reducing the base and thus going to have greater impact as you come to rely more and more on +% gold buildings. This would impose between -1 and -5 gold which would equate to a lot more than that when +% gold buildings are then impacted as the base reduces.

If you'd like to go with -% gold, then perhaps -2 or 3% per +5% maintenance as it currently stands. This would have to be watched carefully though as you would NOT want to go into less than 0% gold output. That'd likely be cause for an error and would mean you're getting no gold no matter how much you work the land etc... So moderate #s like 2 or 3% would keep things reasonable. That would make a +25% maintenance = between -10 and -15% gold. Some serious numbers indeed at that point.

These suggestions would place the costs somewhere in the realm I expect you intended. Could be you meant it to be even less. I tend to lean towards -% gold to reflect the city costing more to staff a larger infrastructure as it grows. It takes more firemen, stations, equipment and supplies to cover a size 50 city than a size 10. But then, the problem with this theory is that it is not parallelling the need as much as a price per population would.

On a price per population, I'd assign a straight -.1 gold per current 5% maintenance per population. Thus 1 gold per 10 population/5% current maintenance cost. That would make a +25% maintenance cost building cost 5 gold per 10 population. This seems reasonable given that we also have the capability to give some buildings the opposite benefit. Such a system would be more reflective of 'maintenance' that doesn't mess with corps.

Is this even possible to do? First setting a number in decimals? I thought they had to be whole numbers. In addition can you even do gold per population? If they can what code do I need to fill in to make it work?

Hmm... maybe we can't. Probably best to go with a straight percent mod then.

Ok, so I went through the civopedia last night and found the following buildings have a + to maintenance %. I don't think you'd want to remove it from ALL of them... perhaps we should just consider this % to be a reflection of crime rate... that might keep it in the right ball park. Under this consideration, there are other buildings that you may wish to ADD some maintenance % penalties.

In general, this list falls into 4 categories of buildings: Public Utilities, Leisure, Defense, and Beauracracy. IMO, Public Utilities should be converted to a % gold penalty. Leisure should remain maintenance if it would enhance the crime rate such as in the case of Saloons etc, and otherwise reflect a slight loss of production (-1 hammer, etc...). Defense should be a flat rate gold cost. Beauracracy, a percentage gold penalty (very slight) PLUS a reduced maintenance penalty (1/2 to 1/4 of what it currently stands at) to reflect abuses of the system.

Anyhow, that's how I would go about it myself... I could be totally off. There is one building on here that should have a REVERSE effect on maintenance, and that would be the Police Station.

So, without further comment, here are the buildings that currently increase maintenance costs:


Airfield
Aquarium
Arena
Ballroom
Battlebot Arena
Biofuel Power Plant
Biomass Power Plant
Booby Traps
Bus Station
Castle
Cistern
Citadel
City Council
City Gatehouse
Cruise Ship Port
Desalination Plant
Drama School
Fairgrounds
Farm Supply
Fencing Academy
Fighting Pit
Fire Brigade
Fire Dock
Fire Hangar
Fire Hydrants
Fire Station
Florist
Garbage Collection Agency
Geothermal Power Plant
Gladiatorial School
Graveyard
Greenhouse
Guild Hall
Hammam
High Tech Coal Power Plant
Ice Rink
Igloo
Insane Assylum
Jousting Tournament
Landmines
Major League Stadium
Manor
Mechanical Traps
Methane Power Plant
Metropolitan Administration
Microwave Power Plant
Minor League Stadium
Music School
Natural Gas Powerplant
Paved Roads
Personal Rapid Train
Petting Zoo
Pit Traps
Police Station
Power Lines
Public Pool
Public Transportation
Ranger Station
Recreation Center
Recycling Center
Reservoir
Retirement Home
Robotic Traps
Saloon
Security Center
Servant's Quarter
Sewer System
Ski Resort
Social Services
Solar Mirror Array
Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant
Solar Photovoltaic Roofs
Solar Power Satellite
Speedway
State Park
Super Coal Power Plant
Telephone Network
Throne Room
Tidal Farm
Town Hall
Town Watch
Town Well
Townclock
Vacation Resort
Village Hall
Waste Incinerator Power Plant
Water Pipes
Water Pumping Station
Water Raceway
Water Tower
Water Treatment Plant
Wave Farm
Weather Station
Welfare Office
Wind Farm
Wind Water Pump
Zero G Sports Arena
Zoo

That's 89 buildings that create increased maintenance... Its no wonder Corporations (and even guilds) cost so much!

As a side note, after some discussion yesterday, we feel that some of the buildings, such as the fire depts etc, could be made more useful (currently just a way to combat unhealth ever so slightly) by making them required for easy fixes to frequent disastrous events. Some of the events we have could take some tampering to adjust to this idea... forest fires for example... with a fire dept or such in the nearby city, the option to take care of it without cost could come up. This would be a neat way to make such buildings indespensable and be more reflective of the actual reason the real world finds them to be. I figure that concept might inspire even more buildings with similar purposes. (evacuation centers anyone?)

@Thunderbrd
Before I change anything you keep talking about maintenance representing "crime", but I thought revolutions (stability/instability) and espionage represented crime.


Espionage would represent international spying and stopping international crimes, even committing international crimes on a state level.

Revolutions would represent an anti-state sentiment... people being unhappy with their govt and what they wish to do about it.

But Maintenance was originally established as the way to measure internal crime rate, stemming from a new way to reinvent the old CivIII system of Crime Rate. Maintenance comes from tax evasion, theft, organized crime, skimming, scams, the spread of drug abuse etc... In short, it is the cost on society that is incurred from criminal behavior. Or at least that was what it was set to represent initially. Thus courthouses have always, since vanilla, reduced Maintenance. Why Shinto buildings, aka, a culture of honor, reduces maintenance. Why the farther you get from the capital, the more the public feels disconnected from a sense of national pride that may guide them into more pro-societal behavior. (Snake oil salesmen, gunfighters, and prostitutes primarily operated in the west US on the frontiers rather than closer to the root of the US civilization in the east)

The positive angle of crime is that it can be harnessed for the purpose of military intelligence as those who seek to spy on us, sneak through borders illegally, fugitives from other governments etc are often discovered and probed through normal law enforcement activities, thus why jails etc are giving us espionage as well.

In fact, with some of the techs you've proposed, perhaps just their discovery should increase maintenance % (drug trade for example). Police stations and the like would combat the naturally growing phenomenons of crime thus reducing maintenance that should continue to grow otherwise as a result of increasing human intelligence finding new ways to exploit societal structure.

This is the way I see it... not saying its the only way to view the game theory.

Oh... and I love the idea of the flammability mod... such percentages could plug in nicely with a random event process.

Oh, I always though "maintenance" was like repairing broken things. Keeping the various buildings from falling into decay. That's why places like parks need maintained in order to keep their lawns moved and shrubs trimmed. Or power plants which need need constant maintenance to keep them running.

Note when i say "maintenance" i no not mean the same "maintenance" that units have. That I assume is feeding, clothing, housing and training your units.

However i am still a bit confused on what "maintenance" really means. One sources says it is this ...

Maintenance: City costs maintenance. The further they are from the capital, the more gold they will cost per turn. If you expand too fast, especially early in the game, your gold per turn will plummet due to increasing maintenance costs. Expand slow, and you will be able to sustain each city you found.

This seems really vague of what it represents. Do you know or have a better explanation?

In addition what is representing "upkeep" of buildings then?

In a lot of ways, I think the Civ designers were a little vague on purpose, allowing it to be left to a number of interpretations.

However, in this particular case, where we are really becoming much more specific with realism and detail, and where we have so much greater 'reality resolution' as it were, we are finding some of the functions of the game are being disrupted as we outgrow some of the basic model.

In other words, so much maintenance destroys the profitability or even feasability of guilds and corporations. I'm sure the game designers intended maintenance to include upkeep... I think I read somewhere that it was BOTH crime and upkeep. In Vanilla, this vagueness was functional.

But I believe WE need to split up the two so that we can make the buildings have more purpose and meaning individually and so that we can maintain game balance.

Therefore, if we continue to consider maintenance a hemorrhage cost of crime and establish the alternative of -gold% / -flat rate gold cost/round to represent the cost of maintaining against natural decay or of staffing governmental employees, then we would find ourselves in both a more workable AND realistic environment.

Does anyone else agree/disagree?

Ok then that explains things a bit. So i was not totally wrong in interpreting "maintenance". However now I do not understand why corporations use the same "maintenance" if its crime.

I am all for establishing what stat represents what. Personally I wish there was a separate +/- "crime" stat that we could fill in separate from maintenance.

In addition if maintenance is representing "crime" should say schools and eduction help reduce crime?

Sure... sounds like a good interpretation.

Corp's use the same maintenance because they were an afterthought. Maintenance is a general drain on the income represented in a percentage though I don't know the full equation exactly. The reason maintenance impacts us so heavily when corporations get involved is because each city has to pay corporate dues which are 100% higher when maintenance in that city is 100%. Corporations are set to provide 10 gold or so for every city that has adopted the corporation (generated through the corporate headquarters) and if that city has most of the buildings built there that heavily impact +gold percentage, its very feasible to gain a profit (most corps will not cost more than 20 or so gold per city if maintenance is properly managed - this can become overwhelming though if you oversupply a corporation with its resources as the amount of dues paid goes up with extra resources...(on regular BTS))

Regardless, Corporations probably should well fit into the maintenance mold as being heavily impacted by it. This is because the most costly of all crimes involve white collar high level scheming to shuffle money in illegal ways to profit and the corporate system does breed this sort of abuse - the more powerful the corporation the more likely and costly the abuse. That said, if maintenance can be controlled by effective economic systems and law enforcement combined with genius money management in the seat of the corporate headquarters (wall street etc...), the impact and frequency of such crimes can be effectively managed. Governments making wise decisions about how to manage corporations SHOULD profit on corporations... not saying they always will even in a well balanced system as there are many factors involved there.


@Thunderbrd

How is this?

Public Utilities (-:gold:%)
- Biofuel Power Plant
- Biomass Power Plant
- Bus Station
- Cistern
- Desalination Plant
- Fire Brigade
- Fire Dock
- Fire Hangar
- Fire Hydrants
- Fire Station
- Garbage Collection Agency
- Geothermal Power Plant
- High Tech Coal Power Plant
- Methane Power Plant
- Microwave Power Plant
- Natural Gas Powerplant
- Paved Roads
- Personal Rapid Train
- Power Lines
- Public Transportation
- Recycling Center
- Reservoir
- Sewer System
- Solar Mirror Array
- Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant
- Solar Photovoltaic Roofs
- Solar Power Satellite
- Super Coal Power Plant
- Telephone Network
- Tidal Farm
- Town Well
- Waste Incinerator Power Plant
- Water Pipes
- Water Pumping Station
- Water Tower
- Water Treatment Plant
- Wave Farm
- Wind Farm
- Wind Water Pump

Leisure (- Maintenance %)
- Airfield
- Aquarium
- Arena
- Ballroom
- Battlebot Arena
- Cruise Ship Port
- Drama School
- Fairgrounds
- Fencing Academy
- Fighting Pit
- Gladiatorial School
- Graveyard
- Ice Rink
- Jousting Tournament
- Major League Stadium
- Minor League Stadium
- Music School
- Petting Zoo
- Public Pool
- Ranger Station
- Recreation Center
- Ski Resort
- Speedway
- State Park
- Vacation Resort
- Water Raceway
- Zero G Sports Arena
- Zoo

Defense (-:gold:)
- Booby Traps
- Castle
- Citadel
- City Gatehouse
- Landmines
- Mechanical Traps
- Pit Traps
- Police Station
- Robotic Traps
- Security Center
- Town Watch

Bureaucracy (-1/2 :gold: -1/2 Maintenance %)
- City Council
- Guild Hall
- Metropolitan Administration
- Social Services
- Town Hall
- Village Hall
- Welfare Office

? (Where should these go and should some of these have their cost taken out?)
- Farm Supply
- Florist
- Greenhouse
- Hammam
- Insane Assylum
- Manor
- Retirement Home
- Saloon
- Servant's Quarter
- Throne Room
- Townclock
- Weather Station

What do you think?



See Post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10262839&postcount=1317)

Ok, so I took liberties to adjust a bit and highlighted the suggested adustments (blue is a move from one category to another and green is a prev unmentioned building)

Hydromancerx
Apr 25, 2011, 03:44 AM
So what I need help with is actual stats for buildings so I know what to change them to.

Thunderbrd
Apr 25, 2011, 10:14 PM
hmm... Ok, then, proposals for some of them:

Public Utilities (-%)
- Biofuel Power Plant (-5% (note: I'm suggesting these without a thorough review of power plants and their various differences. These could be slightly adjusted to balance them out and make for some cause to build one over another. For example, you could make one type of plant cost a percentage or two higher but be more productive, or less poluting, while another costs less upkeep but doesn't have quite the impact or polutes more, etc... At the moment, without looking at them all on a spreadsheet, I'd suggest -5% as a baseline to consider for all of them.)
- Biomass Power Plant (-5%)
- Bus Station (-2%)
- Cistern (-1%)
- Desalination Plant (-5%)
- Fire Brigade (-4% (I'm not sure how to define the differences in many of these fire buildings. Perhaps some could be at less than 4% as they don't require as much staffing.)
- Fire Dock (-4%)
- Fire Hangar (-4%)
- Fire Hydrants (-1%)
- Fire Station (-4% (what I'm basing these considerations on...)
- Garbage Collection Agency (-4%)
- Geothermal Power Plant (-5%)
- Graveyard (-1%)
- High Tech Coal Power Plant (-5%)
- Methane Power Plant (-5%)
- Microwave Power Plant (-5%)
- Natural Gas Powerplant (-5%)
- Paved Roads (-4%)
- Personal Rapid Train (-4%)
- Power Lines (-3%)
- Public Transportation (-4%)
- Recycling Center (-3%)
- Reservoir (-2%)
- Sewer System (-3%)
- Solar Mirror Array (-5%)
- Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant (-5%)
- Solar Photovoltaic Roofs (-5%)
- Solar Power Satellite (-5%)
- Super Coal Power Plant (-5%)
- Telephone Network (-3%)
- Tidal Farm (-5%)
- Town Well (-1%)
- Waste Incinerator Power Plant (-5%)
- Water Pipes (-2%)
- Water Pumping Station (-2%)
- Water Tower (-2%)
- Water Treatment Plant (-3%)
- Wave Farm (-5%)
- Wind Farm (-5%)
- Wind Water Pump (-2%(I may be seriously misjudging what this building is for though)
- Retirement Home (-3%)
- Farm Supply (-3%)
- Greenhouse (-2%)
- Townclock (-1%)
- Weather Station (-2%)
Any public school building (-4%) should probably be included in this category, in short, anything that requires some staffing or consistent work to upkeep that builds in demand as the city grows...


Leisure (+ Maintenance % penalty)
- Aquarium (2%)
- Arena (10%)
- Ballroom (2%)
- Battlebot Arena (4%)
- Cruise Ship Port (4%)
- Drama School (2%)
- Fairgrounds (6%)
- Ice Rink (2%)
- Major League Stadium (8%)
- Minor League Stadium (4%)
- Music School (2%)
- Petting Zoo (1%)
- Public Pool (3%)
- Recreation Center (4%)
- Ski Resort (3%)
- Speedway (5%)
- Vacation Resort (10%)
- Water Raceway (4%)
- Zero G Sports Arena (10%)
- Zoo (2%)
- Theater (5%)
- Casino (25%)
- Saloon (25%)
- Brothel (25%)
I propose a Tavern (20%)
and an Inn (20%)
and a Motel (20%)
and a Hotel (10%)
and an RV Park (10%)
these are so high because they harbor the criminal element as well.
additionally:
Bandit buildings and anything crime centric (10-25%)

Probably more could apply here... I suggest adding anything that could feasibly increase the crime rate/societal slack to this list, such as even Bandit Camps and such.

Defense (-)
- Airfield -5
- Booby Traps -2
- Castle -4
- Citadel -4
- City Gatehouse -2
- Fencing Academy -2
- Fighting Pit -2
- Gladiatorial School -2
- Jousting Tournament -3
- Landmines -2
- Mechanical Traps -2
- Pit Traps -1
- Robotic Traps -3
- Security Center -4
- Town Watch -1
I'd include barracks (-3 to -5) and their ilk in this category... would make you think twice about including them in EVERY city! And the current method of AI determinations would harmonize for them nicely I think.

Bureaucracy (-1/2 -1/2 Maintenance %)(I would have beuraucratic buildings cost a % gold but reduce maintenance... see how that works! This would reflect the expanding need for staffing and upkeep but the effective reduction of crime/slack in society as they bring more order to the civilization.)
- City Council -3% gold, -6% Maintenance
- Guild Hall -2% gold, -10% Maintenance
- Metropolitan Administration - 5% gold, -10% Maintenance
- Social Services -5% gold, -20% Maintenance
- Town Hall -2% gold, -4% Maintenance
- Village Hall -1% gold, -2% Maintenance
- Welfare Office -3% gold, -12% Maintenance
- Ranger Station -2% gold, -8% Maintenance
- State Park -3% gold, +4% Maintenance (yes + as its also a liesure)
- Police Station -5% gold, -20% Maintenance
- Insane Assylum -3% gold, -15% Maintenance
- Manor -2% gold, -5% Maintenance
- Servant's Quarter (I'd probably consider this more like a military building as its to staff government paid help that wouldn't grow far beyond the basic demand of the leader.) thus -2 gold.
- Throne Room -1% gold, -5% Maintenance
-Jail -3% gold, -15% Maintenance
-Maximum Security Prison -5% gold, -25% Maintenance (-10% Maintenance in every other city)
-Courthouse -3% gold, -15% Maintenance
-Chief's Hut -1% gold, -4% Maintenance
Possibly some of the espionage agency style buildings should be included here as well. Though their impact would be something akin to -5% gold, -5% Maintenance (not so much as it tends to allow crime and liesure to operate under surveillance more often than not, so as to garner more info.)
etc...

Anyhow... that's the suggestions based on theory anyways. Operating under the basic premises of what these numbers represent, perhaps many more buidings should be placed under consideration as lying in one of these categories.

Hydromancerx
Apr 25, 2011, 11:59 PM
Oh i forgot to post my changes since this was first brought up.

Booby Traps, Landmines, Mechanical Traps, Pit Traps and Robotic Traps were set to 0 Maintenance so they would be more attractive to build.

Also the Chief's Hut was set to +1% Maintenance and -5% :gold:.

I think they were balanced unless you object to those adjustments.

Otherwise what you have so far looks good. Could you help out with the core buildings (ones not in my mods)?

Thunderbrd
Apr 26, 2011, 09:38 AM
The only one there that seems out of whack would be the chief's hut. It should reduce maintenance as its a governmental seat, but then cost some gold percentage as it takes some money to maintain its operations.

I'll take a look through the rest of the buildings later today perhaps.

Thunderbrd
Apr 27, 2011, 12:14 AM
I'll have to get to that tomorrow - been recruited for some other tasks tonight.

strategyonly
Apr 27, 2011, 05:55 AM
I'll have to get to that tomorrow - been recruited for some other tasks tonight.

RL? or C2C stuff? I am just noisy:think:

Thunderbrd
Apr 27, 2011, 08:56 AM
lol... RL stuff :(

Hydromancerx
May 28, 2011, 04:54 AM
@Thunderbrd

Do you have any time to re-visit this? It seem like its needed more than ever to counter act my new "Goods". As you said early game you end up with much too much gold, but then once guilds and corporations roll around the maintenance cost builds up to much with the other maintenance buildings in place.

If you can get the buildings you listed changed in a timely manner I would be happy to update my sub-mods too with your changes. At the moment all i would be focusing on is the Embassy folder which doesn't include this stuff. So it would be a good opportunity to edit my stuff without us conflicting with each other.

The details on what you change i will leave up to you. I can look them over after your done. I suspect any change will be a good step in the right direction. If its too much or too little we can adjust as we test it in future versions. Balance is just a matter of tweaking and testing I suspect.

Nightguard
May 28, 2011, 06:05 AM
Very interesting to see what you're doing here. I like that different types of buildings have different maintenance 'methods' in this system. Not only does it add a bit of variety, it's also pretty logical.

Are you mainly just looking at rebalancing the current maintenance adding buildings, or are you considering adding to the list? I have been thinking that most of the healthcare buildings should have some kind of maintenance cost added to them, particularly as you move towards the modern era healthcare buildings. While it's true that healthcare in the US is a multi-billion dollar industry, a lot of that money moves through non-profit entities that do not pay taxes to the government. In Canada and many European nations, the government pays for healthcare directly through their own budget, although I suppose that could be reflected better through civics than direct maintenance costs.

I suppose my thought process is partly real-life reflection, and partly game balance. These buildings can potentially add numerous Health to a city, and a monetary cost to balance that out would not seem unreasonable to me.

Thunderbrd
May 28, 2011, 08:42 PM
Yeah, I'm presently working on getting a full on evaluation done for ALL buildings, categorizing them into various sets and applying some basic conceptual adjustments based on those categories and comparisons to other buildings within said categories. If that makes any sense ;)

Hydromancerx
May 30, 2011, 07:45 PM
@Thunderbrd

If its ok with you I need to tweak and change some stuff in my files. So If you need to change anything in the Hydro folder let me know exactly what needs changing and I will go in and manually change it myself.

Thunderbrd
Jun 05, 2011, 01:55 AM
More importantly, update me on all changes so I can update my growing spreadsheet that covers all buildings. This is my first step in looking to do balance work across the whole system of buildings.

Hydromancerx
Jun 05, 2011, 03:26 AM
More importantly, update me on all changes so I can update my growing spreadsheet that covers all buildings. This is my first step in looking to do balance work across the whole system of buildings.

Well when did you last look at the buildings? Before or after the Unique buildings got merged?

As for the most recent stuff from me I just added some new "goods", which don't apply. However i did majorly change the market, bazaar, grocer, crafts hut and trading post. I also put back in features like in the power plants giving them the ability to produce power again.

So nothing is changed in code right? Just spreadsheet stuff? If so all my changes did not change maintenance (except I think the Mausoleum).

Could you post the spreadsheet so I can see where your at?

Thunderbrd
Jun 05, 2011, 04:07 AM
I'm somewhere in the C's still

All of the spreadsheet so far is based on the most recent release build. So there's probably a lot you've done. All I really need to do once I get it to that point is share it with you and get it updated, then I can work on assigning adjustments by looking at a bigger picture schema.

Hydromancerx
Jun 05, 2011, 04:54 AM
Is this for EVERY building or just for the ones you made a list of before?

Thunderbrd
Jun 05, 2011, 06:52 PM
Its for EVERY building so that all are taken into consideration! yeah... quite a task but doing this will help us to have the spreadsheet for future ease of many references and will make this particular process a lot cleaner.

Hydromancerx
Jun 05, 2011, 08:09 PM
Well hat's off to ya for attempting such an epic task. :hatsoff:

I am sure everyone will benefit from your work.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 05, 2011, 09:52 PM
Its for EVERY building so that all are taken into consideration! yeah... quite a task but doing this will help us to have the spreadsheet for future ease of many references and will make this particular process a lot cleaner.

Even all the stuff in my mods? Wow!

Thunderbrd
Jun 06, 2011, 01:19 AM
yep... ALL buildings.

Let me tell you, just reaching the end of the Cs has been quite a task already. But I've begun and I'm bullish about trying to complete data entry tasks once I've started them. Wasn't able to get to as much today as hoped but progress is what it is.

Koshling
Jun 07, 2011, 07:39 PM
yep... ALL buildings.

Let me tell you, just reaching the end of the Cs has been quite a task already. But I've begun and I'm bullish about trying to complete data entry tasks once I've started them. Wasn't able to get to as much today as hoped but progress is what it is.

What info are you gathering for each building? I think it would be pretty easy (like one afternoon) task for me to write a program to simply go through the XML and output a csv format for opening in a spreadsheet if you tell me what fields you want. Would that help? It would also mean it coils auto generate an updated spears set whenever buidings changed or were added...

Thunderbrd
Jun 09, 2011, 12:40 AM
whoah... yeah... that'd be ultra cool!

Ok, I'll send you a copy of my spreadsheet at some point tomorrow (I'm just about to head off to bed here.)

So let me get this straight, you're saying you can make this work in both directions? Like not only can we derive all buildings INTO a cvs file (I use excell) but can then turn it back around and update to the XML files FROM the cvs? Oh, dude, that would just be waaaaay too cool.

In such a case, it might be worthwhile then to consider all possible fields? (labeled in a bit more layman's terms than we see in the xml perhaps)

Do you have any idea how greatly such a tool would speed development???

Applying the same thinking to techs and units... the application of such a tool would be such a quantum leap it would be mind-boggling!

Hydromancerx
Jun 09, 2011, 02:05 AM
it might be useful if you guys posted the info online like i did for the tech tree (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&output=html).

Koshling
Jun 09, 2011, 06:18 AM
whoah... yeah... that'd be ultra cool!

Ok, I'll send you a copy of my spreadsheet at some point tomorrow (I'm just about to head off to bed here.)

So let me get this straight, you're saying you can make this work in both directions? Like not only can we derive all buildings INTO a cvs file (I use excell) but can then turn it back around and update to the XML files FROM the cvs? Oh, dude, that would just be waaaaay too cool.

In such a case, it might be worthwhile then to consider all possible fields? (labeled in a bit more layman's terms than we see in the xml perhaps)

Do you have any idea how greatly such a tool would speed development???

Applying the same thinking to techs and units... the application of such a tool would be such a quantum leap it would be mind-boggling!

No, sorry. I'm just saying we can derive the spreadsheet programatically from the XML, and as the XML changes simply rerun it to keep the spreadsheet up to date. Going the other way is probably possible too, but a MUCH bigger project.

Send the spreadsheet as you suggested so I can get an idea of what format you're after and I'll do the XML->CSV converter.

I'm afraid I embarked on something major (to be revealed!!) so it's now going to be next week before I get to this, but I expect it to take no more than a day once I do.

Hydromancerx
Jun 10, 2011, 08:55 PM
I think i found a solution to the gold problem. It works by using Gold, Instability and Stability.

Gold - Gold is produced by different buildings but as a counter for every :gold: it gives Local Instability. This would represent crime of trying to rob the gold producing building. Note this would not have a National Instability since its not a national issue. This is more like "crime".

Instability - Like said above Instability is driven by the amount of gold there to temp the thieves. The higher the gold the more the Local Instability will be. However to counter this you will have Stability.

Stability - Local Stability is made to counter Instability. It would be in forms such as a Police Station or Town Watch. These buildings would give a large amount of Stability since there would be so many Instability buildings around. However to counter the abundance of gold they would cost a whole lot to maintain. Thus having -:gold:. This would be your empires taxes at work to pay the police to keep the peace and keep your empire from rioting into revolutions.

This system of Gold to Instability to Stability should give a balance to the game since you int theory should have close to the same amount of instability as you have gold. Then add on the civics and other factors and it should allow much of your excess gold to be used for keeping the crime low.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: And i think to make it useful for the non-Revolution people We could have :espionage: in addition to local stability.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 10, 2011, 09:44 PM
I think i found a solution to the gold problem. It works by using Gold, Instability and Stability.

Gold - Gold is produced by different buildings but as a counter for every :gold: it gives Local Instability. This would represent crime of trying to rob the gold producing building. Note this would not have a National Instability since its not a national issue. This is more like "crime".

Instability - Like said above Instability is driven by the amount of gold there to temp the thieves. The higher the gold the more the Local Instability will be. However to counter this you will have Stability.

Stability - Local Stability is made to counter Instability. It would be in forms such as a Police Station or Town Watch. These buildings would give a large amount of Stability since there would be so many Instability buildings around. However to counter the abundance of gold they would cost a whole lot to maintain. Thus having -:gold:. This would be your empires taxes at work to pay the police to keep the peace and keep your empire from rioting into revolutions.

This system of Gold to Instability to Stability should give a balance to the game since you int theory should have close to the same amount of instability as you have gold. Then add on the civics and other factors and it should allow much of your excess gold to be used for keeping the crime low.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: And i think to make it useful for the non-Revolution people We could have :espionage: in addition to local stability.

Looks promising but I would not have it 1:1 but then I think they are different units anyway, so it may not matter.

Police are a fairly modern invention requiring "rule of law" to be generally agreed by the populace.

Hydromancerx
Jun 10, 2011, 09:50 PM
Looks promising but I would not have it 1:1 but then I think they are different units anyway, so it may not matter.

Police are a fairly modern invention requiring "rule of law" to be generally agreed by the populace.

Yeah the amount would need to be adjusted and tweaked as we play tested it.

Well early on there should not be to big of a problem since the empires are small. Also there can be other factors to keep order such as the chief's hut or military buildings.

Thunderbrd
Jun 11, 2011, 09:52 AM
Your concept of instability is what Maintenance is all about. Vanilla theory: The more cities, the harder it is to maintain stability. The farther your cities are from the capital, the harder it is to maintain staiblity. Build a courthouse to address crime, improve stability. Now, gold producing buildings don't generate instability in the vanilla system either because they are considered natural victims of what other factors exist rather than temptations, though I can see your point how by focusing money in certain locations, banks, markets, etc, you make it easier to create theft. Perhaps this should be given more consideration.

But equally, too, under such an improved system, we would be best to generate some more concepts to reflect how crime evolves and how law enforcement evolves. For example, in the modern information age, we see a vast decline in say, 'Bank Robberies' due to the fact that money becomes more digital, but an increase in 'ID theft' instead. So Police efforts must become as much a cyber-matter as a physical presence. There are many ways new crimes have been invented and many ways law enforcement has come to address them. (My father was a Forest Service Law enforcement officer for example. Mostly busted weed farms, dumpers, and timber thieves.) Such thoughts may inspire more building ideas.

But yeah, what you're saying about gold income (representing taxation), instability and stability is much what I was aiming for with the system in general, with Maintenance being the key metric expressing the dynamic of instability.

Now that that's understood, I think you're right that many military buildings would have a stabilizing factor. Thus while many 'bureocracy' category buildings require some gold support because they are state funded, they also reduce maintenance by increasing stability. This is likely how a building like the chief's hut will become.

Down the road we could further refine the system to even suggest that great instability may become an unhappiness issue as well (why work when you can steel what you want? Why work when if you do someone just takes what you earn? If the state cannot maintain its laws the citizens would find it both intollerable and be led towards revolt and insubordination would be rife - why not take advantage of the situation for what it is?)

I'm in conflict to see how leisure becomes an instability (thus increases maintenance.) I figure it gives cause for citizens to desire and the stronger the desire, the greater the motive for crime. Additionally, they become harbor regions for such criminal activities. But its also to reflect 'slack' and I was thinking a new metric of -% production may reflect that a bit better. So while they increase happiness and it'd be foolish not to have them, they take a slight toll on production (sorry man, I just had to call in sick (so he could go skiing))

Identifying buildings that increase or harbor crime is going to help a lot overall with the system and is one reason for taking a full look through at all buildings. Things like Mercenary Camps... instability en-masse and only supportable in early empires when size isn't taking a toll as well, yet valuable due to the military benefit (which is usually the tradeoff). Poison Merchant Buildings (black markets) should create instability (increased maintenance). but again offering a military benefit.

We could have a gallows building for an early way to address out of control maintenance (but at the cost of happiness among the citizenry). The line of thinking carries us to so many new concepts.

DRJ
Jun 11, 2011, 11:27 AM
I agree that too much gold is generated atm. I also like a bit harsher instability.

Some thoughts: if too much money is around it should cause to extreme inflation.
Like in reality: if money is printed in abundance, after a while it's nothing worth and people become unhappy (see FED).

Translated to civish:
A large gold surplus per turn (formula: at least a decent 15% of total GNP/turn) could lead to a surplus of unhappy people/city/turn.
As it is allready: the more unhappy people in cities = the more instability in empire.

The concept of the gambling hall is a good one, I think: it gives some money (+3:gold:) and also one :c5unhappy: face. So more cash buildings like banks and markets should give :gripe: ...

Like directing the player to keep an eye on cities (so they dont grow too large and become unhappy), he could be driven to watch his income level, too - as more economic growth that doesn't fit the spending will cause extreme inflation. So, instead of building every gold building, some other improvements might be wiser to build.
That way we also can prevent getting so large fund that buying large loads stuff while having a civic like coinage cant be exploited anymore (like buying all new buildings a tech grants everywhere, just after having researched - or buying a large defense army in a few turns)

Having a large gold reserve would now be a luxury that comes with a certain price: unhappiness and inflation/turn.

The question in my mind is if AI can possibly evaluate that having too much gold is counter-productive, or not needed, at least in the long term...

It would even grant a new strategy to exploit AI: You might gift gold to enemies, to make them more unstable. AI could be prevented from doing that by having a certain
cut for "donations" (like 1000 gold max/turn) Max/turn because the spender then had to keep more gold over some turns, to "donate" it and that may make his people more unstable at the same time too. So keeping it for donating 1000/for 10 turns would be a risk too...


Edit: The inflation process should be reformed not maintenance, I think!
More dynamic inflation instead of the linear one that also badly sabotages modern starts btw!!!


I want to play the future area on deity but its just not possible, cause as soon as inflation strikes avery few turns it can't be met by any growth...

Hydromancerx
Jun 11, 2011, 03:09 PM
@Thunderbrd

On a totally game point of view and no historically accurate; we have players who see buildings just based on their cost and stats. This is fine sometimes but other times very annoying of you want the game to play like real life would. For instance not building a building just because it has unhappy or unhealthy. Lets call these NIMBY (not in my backyard) buildings. While some of these can be optional (ex. Toxic Waste Dump, Federal Prison, Landfill), some of them should not be. We should try to work some of these building into the infer-structure of the game. Meaning you cannot get very far if you don't build them.

Case in point the Tannery. Many people do not want to build the tannery because of the unhealthiness it gives. However it makes Good (Leather) and thus is important to other buildings like a Cobbler or Sail Maker. Thus if one wants to make ships there is a good chance they need to make a Tannery. Likewise we want to have it where if they want gold there is going to be a downside of "crime" associated with it. Thus causing them to have to build crime fighting buildings. Because who needs to build an expensive Police Station if there is no "crime"?

Note the same logic works for say unhealthy buildings vs healthy buildings. At the moment they can just build any gold producing building with no consequences. No crime and no way to spend all that gold on buildings who help counter things (like the Police Station with crime).

I'm in conflict to see how leisure becomes an instability (thus increases maintenance.) I figure it gives cause for citizens to desire and the stronger the desire, the greater the motive for crime. Additionally, they become harbor regions for such criminal activities. But its also to reflect 'slack' and I was thinking a new metric of -% production may reflect that a bit better. So while they increase happiness and it'd be foolish not to have them, they take a slight toll on production (sorry man, I just had to call in sick (so he could go skiing))

Well here is a real life example, here in southern California we have a theme park called "Six Flags: Magic Mountain". This would definitely be considered a place of leisure. However gangs have come in and basically taken over the place. Thus having a high crime rate. The same could be seen for Las Vegas where it is/was a place of both leisure and crime. In short leisure should not be anti-crime but like you said anti-production. If people are having playing then they are not working. However leisure can still increase culture and even happiness.

The down side to leasure being anti-production is many people will not want to choose any leasure buildings. Thus we will have to make sure that production buildings (or at least some of them) make people unhappy (because they are working and not playing).

In short something like this for balance ...

High Crime (+:gold: -:espionage: -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (-:gold: +:espionage: +Local Instability)

Leisure (+:culture: :) -:hammers:) <-------> Work (-:culture: :mad: +:hammers:)

Or something like that since there are many other factors.

Thunderbrd
Jun 11, 2011, 11:38 PM
Players so nearsighted as to avoid building a building because of there being any detraction would fail to play effectively in this system, yes. There should almost always be tradeoffs and the skill comes in recognizing what you need to construct NOW.

Your breakdown of the leisure and crime is pretty much exactly what I have in mind myself. Its all about achieving a balance.

The question in my mind is if AI can possibly evaluate that having too much gold is counter-productive, or not needed, at least in the long term... This whole concept would be tough for the ai - and would take some additional programming to help them (at least illusionarily) 'see' a downside to having too much gold. I agree that inflation should adjust based on the excess you may be carrying. I've never isolated how inflation is calculated or where but creating a more dynamic inflation system could really help as you outlined. Its something to look at 'next' after working out some of the balance issues as far as we can with the current xml structure. The current inflation mechanism is vaguely expressed to players and is largely hidden in the dll somewhere - haven't gone looking yet to be honest but that's what I understand it to be - not much for the xml modders to work with to adjust it save for some new fields for civics.

Another thing I've been considering is some financial civic chains that could make a lot of difference to the whole system.

For example, if you subsidize farming operations, the state is throwing gold at generating food - we have no system in place for this. In other words, privatisation of various aspects of the economy vs state funded and run is a matter of preference for all nations and any decisions made there have their own imperfect set of strengths and weaknesses that can be taken into consideration, again, based on current need.

I suggest we may wish to consider such issues as we construct this new system. I want to put that out there before I get to a point where I'm going through this personally. We could generate a number of new XML fields for varying benefits/penalties for our buildings based on civic selections. Such thinking would add a terribly realistic dynamism to our structure.

As I go through the buildings, these are some of the thoughts that have come to mind. I have various categories of buildings emerging here and we have a lot of possible new ways for these buildings to adjust based on civic choices about how the state 'runs' that sort of category, like 'agricultural' as in the above example.

And something else I've noticed, and this is to Koshling as well, we REALLY need to deepen some of the programming structure for the Defensive buildings. Many of them are worthless by the time they are able to be built because their defenses only apply as if they were walls or castles (vs anything pre-high explosives) so we need a new XML field for a defense rating that doesn't get outdated. (Think arcologies and such modern - future defense buildings) There's some other places where thinking down this line must be established as well, and I've noticed some buildings add strength benefits to particular types of troops so I'm going to look to improve some of the more modern defenses using those xml methods already in place but vastly underused. I'll have some more pointed suggestions here for that soon too. I think this is one reason we're finding the future eras so overwhelmingly geared towards the attacker and cities becoming nearly indefendable after you progress far enough into the game.

Anyhow, getting this overview of buildings as I go is certainly inspiring some thoughts.

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2011, 12:36 AM
For example, if you subsidize farming operations, the state is throwing gold at generating food - we have no system in place for this. In other words, privatisation of various aspects of the economy vs state funded and run is a matter of preference for all nations and any decisions made there have their own imperfect set of strengths and weaknesses that can be taken into consideration, again, based on current need.


There is a Civic in Afforess' Rewritten Civics (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=0AXB3BRZXK9JSZGQ3d2todDdfMTA3ZjZjcGszZn c&revision=_latest) which deals with Agriculture. Perhaps it could be added in the future. It includes "Subsidized Agriculture" as one of its civics.


Agriculture Civic

None (Available at Start)
No Upkeep
25% Slower City Growth

Slash and Burn (Requires: Bronze Working)
Low Upkeep
+5% City Growth
+1 Unhealthy in all cities
-10% City Maintenance
-1 diplomacy with all other nations, "You destroy the environment!"

Agricultural Guilds (Requires: Guilds)
Medium Upkeep
+5% City Growth
-10% Espionage

Privatized Agriculture (Requires: Economics)
Low Upkeep
+10% City Growth
+10% Food from trade routes

Corporate Agriculture (Requires: Corporations)
Medium Upkeep
+15 City Growth
+25% Food from trade routes
+2 unhealthiness in all cities
+1 unhappiness in largest cities
-25% corporation costs

Subsidized Agriculture (Requires: Liberalism)
High Upkeep
+20% City Growth
+30% City Maintenance
+10% Distance costs
+10% Food from trade routes

State-Run Agriculture (Requires: Communism)
Astronomical Upkeep
+20% City Growth
+5% Food
+50% City Maintenance

Green Agriculture (Requires: Ecology)
High Upkeep
-10% City Growth
+3 Healthiness in all cities
+2 happiness in largest cities

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 12, 2011, 01:19 AM
Some recent research suggests that slash and burn actually increases soil fertility over time. Especially in jungles. It is because the charcol added to the soil traps neutrents reducing leaching

Thunderbrd
Jun 12, 2011, 02:40 AM
I suppose those would work. I wonder, though, using these as a good platform, if it would still help to add some various xml fields for the buildings that are dependant on various civics being adopted (that can replace the usual assets or at least modify them)

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2011, 04:33 AM
I suppose those would work. I wonder, though, using these as a good platform, if it would still help to add some various xml fields for the buildings that are dependant on various civics being adopted (that can replace the usual assets or at least modify them)

The exact stats can be adjusted. For isntance "Slash and Burn" Civic should probably be moved to "Slash and Burn" Tech.

Koshling
Jun 12, 2011, 10:26 AM
The exact stats can be adjusted. For isntance "Slash and Burn" Civic should probably be moved to "Slash and Burn" Tech.

I like the agriculture civic.

As for extra XML fields (and ai usage if needed) just let me know what you think you need (this applies to hydro and thunderbrd's requests)

Thunderbrd
Jun 12, 2011, 11:10 AM
I like the agriculture civic.

As for extra XML fields (and ai usage if needed) just let me know what you think you need (this applies to hydro and thunderbrd's requests)

Well... I'm not entirely sure what we HAVE here already. In short, what I'm looking for is a field group allowing you to:

a) define the civic under which the adjustment should be made
b) define any conditional +/- int OR +/- % on any commerce, and/or yield.
c) said field should adjust from the base value when under defined civic.

Thus, for example, via xml, I may be able to make a Farmhouse get an additional food but be at -2 gold when operating under the 'subsidized farming' civic.

Such an xml tool would have huge potential application. But before we start trying to put the field in, something tells me I heard one of you say at some point that we already had something along these lines - I'm just not sure how, where, to work that into the xml building infos.

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2011, 12:25 PM
Thus, for example, via xml, I may be able to make a Farmhouse get an additional food but be at -2 gold when operating under the 'subsidized farming' civic.


The Farmhouse building was taken out once the "Goods" system was put in place.

Thunderbrd
Jun 12, 2011, 03:35 PM
The Farmhouse building was taken out once the "Goods" system was put in place.

Ok... t'was just a random example anyhow

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2011, 06:15 PM
I'm somewhere in the C's still

All of the spreadsheet so far is based on the most recent release build. So there's probably a lot you've done. All I really need to do once I get it to that point is share it with you and get it updated, then I can work on assigning adjustments by looking at a bigger picture schema.

How is this coming? What letter are you at now? We should try to get this fixed soon since the abundant gold has broken revolutions and in turn the game in general.

JosEPh_II
Jun 12, 2011, 08:23 PM
since the abundant gold has broken revolutions and in turn the game in general.

Hasn't broken my game. In fact I'm in one of the toughest games I've had in a while. It's not the gold, it's how you play.

Never mind, I realize I'm spitting in the wind here. :p

JosEPh :/

Thunderbrd
Jun 13, 2011, 12:51 AM
How is this coming? What letter are you at now? We should try to get this fixed soon since the abundant gold has broken revolutions and in turn the game in general.

I await Koshling's assistance actually. I've gotten him the spreadsheet mainly just so he could have the format and he's said he'll be working on a tool to auto-derive the rest. Left to do this alone, it'd probably take about 3 months so his offer is exceedingly helpful.

Hydromancerx
Jun 21, 2011, 03:50 AM
High Crime (+:gold: -:espionage: -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (-:gold: +:espionage: +Local Instability)

Based on this the easiest thing to implement is the law enforcement buildings. There would be far fewer of these and of those you have they would suck a good portion of the excess gold away. Here is a list of possibly building to apply this to ...

- Chief's Hut
- Town Watch
- Dungeon
- Police Station
- Jail
- Maximum Security Prison
- Insane Asylum
- Intelligence Agency
- Security Bureau
- Security Center

Possibly New Buildings ...

- Stocks
- Gallows
- Guillotine
- Sheriff's Office
- Police Box

You guys have other ideas and/or suggestions on these types of buildings?

Thunderbrd
Jun 21, 2011, 10:17 AM
Funny you should mention Gallows as I had just thought of that myself last week when I was watching a movie. lol... creates unhappiness but goes a long ways towards controling maintenance.

Great thinking there. I also suggest we consider the other side of the coin. Perhaps a Thieve's Guild is in order during the middle ages? :) (and much much more...)

I'll be working to brainstorm more here with you once I've got what we have currently sorted out.

Hydromancerx
Jun 21, 2011, 03:31 PM
Good idea about the thieves guild. Aside from the wealthy building being a target for crime we would need a bunch of NIMBY buildings that would cause high crime if the player chose to use them. Some Crime ideas would be ...

- Bandit's Hideout
- Mercenary Camp
- Mercenary Stables
- Poacher's Camp
- Outlaw's Saloon (Re-Named Saloon)

Possible New Buildings ...

- Thieves Guild
- Smuggler's Shanty
- Pirate's Cove
- Rebel's Camp
- Mob Storefront
- Drug Lord's Mansion
- Chop Shop
- Terrorist's Compound

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 21, 2011, 03:59 PM
A long as "Pirate' Cove" give you a fee pirate every so often.

Hydromancerx
Jun 21, 2011, 04:27 PM
A long as "Pirate' Cove" give you a fee pirate every so often.

I was thinking maybe it allowed for pirate units like a pirate ship. A way to incorporate some of SO's Pirate civ stuff into the game.

Thunderbrd
Jun 21, 2011, 08:52 PM
We could also include a leaderhead trait into the mix, something that allows for greater criminality in the empire without it having such an impact. Something like Scoundrel: no maintenance penalty from buildings.

Then there's the equivalent opposite of Ethical: twice the maintenance penalty from buildings but also twice the maintenance bonus from buildings (a player who eliminates crime buildings from their empire would have a powerful benefit from this!)

Hydromancerx
Jun 22, 2011, 01:13 AM
That's a good idea Thunderbrd.

Hydromancerx
Jul 14, 2011, 03:00 PM
I await Koshling's assistance actually. I've gotten him the spreadsheet mainly just so he could have the format and he's said he'll be working on a tool to auto-derive the rest. Left to do this alone, it'd probably take about 3 months so his offer is exceedingly helpful.

Any update from Koshling for this?

Koshling
Jul 14, 2011, 04:07 PM
Any update from Koshling for this?

I thought I had addressed all the concerns with the tool and its with Thunderbrd.

Thunderbrd
Jul 14, 2011, 10:33 PM
I think everything is fine but I've had some enormous RL issues - so just... sigh... as usual... bear with me. I'm still working on it. Also thinking I may just want to wait for the next update again. But once I get on it I'll dedicate to completing it. I feel like I keep getting knocked back a step by each update. I'm just not fast enough to keep up because I have so many other things going on as well. But I do try. And I should have some good things happening soon.

strategyonly
Jul 16, 2011, 02:29 AM
UPDATE Version 14 is out as of 3:15 am, a brand new way to play the game.

Thunderbrd
Jul 18, 2011, 10:32 PM
cool... a little behind the curve here but downloading now so I can work on those adjustments from THIS version.

Bobisback
Jul 30, 2011, 01:02 PM
hey to make a point that ws made earlier, I really liked the idea of the gold per pop idea. someone mention that is not possible but currently in AND the hospital gives a .1 health per pop, could this code not be converted to the same idea with gold?

strategyonly
Aug 03, 2011, 03:33 AM
UPDATED 2 Aug 11, 4:15 a.m.

Some of the changes include, almost ALL new terrain, water, coastal waves, etc.

Lots of tweaks to the dll, to IMPROVE turn times, and especially the way the AI NOW works, really bug change on that, need info on the way they are working now.

Brand new way of Culture for each and every civ, has there own way of working the situation were they are placed on a map, with the resources that they have in vicinity.

Added Australia to the core mod as an Oceania Culture.

HALF the size of the old mod, which also means again better turn times.

This is only 1/8 of what "we" have done from version 14 to 15

Schwarzbart
Aug 08, 2011, 12:26 AM
Do I understand it right that v1.5 have already got this changes added? If so I will stop my v1.47 game and start a 1.51 one.

strategyonly
Aug 08, 2011, 12:47 AM
Do I understand it right that v1.5 have already got this changes added? If so I will stop my v1.47 game and start a 1.51 one.

Yes it has.

Koshling
Aug 13, 2011, 10:09 AM
Couple of buildings I noticed seem a bit out of kilter in the latest assets:

Fire Brigade - +15% maintenance for 1 happy, 1 healthy. Seems kinda steep, since mostly your cities are large at this stage of the game, so while the benefits are generally worth an extra population you can support, but 1 extra is far less than a 15% population increase, so in most cases it's a net negative to overall city productivity.

Farm Supply - +10% maintenance for 1 food. Rarely a good deal.

Hydromancerx
Aug 13, 2011, 04:27 PM
Couple of buildings I noticed seem a bit out of kilter in the latest assets:

Fire Brigade - +15% maintenance for 1 happy, 1 healthy. Seems kinda steep, since mostly your cities are large at this stage of the game, so while the benefits are generally worth an extra population you can support, but 1 extra is far less than a 15% population increase, so in most cases it's a net negative to overall city productivity.

Farm Supply - +10% maintenance for 1 food. Rarely a good deal.

You have to remember these are very old buildings from when Afforess made the Farming mod and Firestorm Mod for me. There was not as much health or food buildings as there are now.

All maintenance stuff will have to be re-looked at. Just too much to work on at the moment. Things like this and Sports mod need to be redone.

Koshling
Aug 14, 2011, 02:10 PM
You have to remember these are very old buildings from when Afforess made the Farming mod and Firestorm Mod for me. There was not as much health or food buildings as there are now.

All maintenance stuff will have to be re-looked at. Just too much to work on at the moment. Things like this and Sports mod need to be redone.

Actually these may well be fine. After I fixed the 'actuals' in the displayed text (see other thread) they look like I should have been building them all along!

Koshling
Aug 14, 2011, 04:36 PM
Steel mills are +15% to production (+another 10% with power), but replace forges which are +25%. Shouldn't a steel mill (even without power) be at least as productive as a classical forge?

Schwarzbart
Aug 14, 2011, 10:22 PM
Knight's Stable gives +3 Exp. to Mounted Units but Replace Stable and Ger acording to the pedia of 15.1.
The Problem with this is that Stable gives +2 Exp. then Riding School require Stable what gives a other +2 Exp., Speed + faster Training so to me the Knight's Stable looks like a very bad trade.
Then About Ger because it became a Culture building it maybe shouldn't become obsolent by building the Knigt's stable especial bedcause the Ger alone gives +4 Exp.
Maybe it would be bether to change the Knight Stable to just +1 Exp but make nothing Obsolent.

Hydromancerx
Aug 14, 2011, 10:33 PM
Knight's Stable gives +3 Exp. to Mounted Units but Replace Stable and Ger acording to the pedia of 15.1.
The Problem with this is that Stable gives +2 Exp. then Riding School require Stable what gives a other +2 Exp., Speed + faster Training so to me the Knight's Stable looks like a very bad trade.
Then About Ger because it became a Culture building it maybe shouldn't become obsolent by building the Knigt's stable especial bedcause the Ger alone gives +4 Exp.
Maybe it would be bether to change the Knight Stable to just +1 Exp but make nothing Obsolent.

I will have to fix it so the Riding School requires Stables OR Knight's Stables. As for the Ger, I think it goes obsolete long before the Knight's Stables appear.

Schwarzbart
Aug 14, 2011, 10:39 PM
At last in my 15.1 Game I managed to get to Knight Stable looong bevore Ger became Obsolent by City Planing or how the Tech is named.
(You need Mounted Archery for the Keshik and then Stirrup isn't to fare away anymore. The first need Archery the second Iron Working)

Hydromancerx
Aug 15, 2011, 12:29 AM
Ok you guys I fixed the Ger and Riding School and uploaded it to the SVN.

Lelouch
Aug 24, 2011, 10:07 AM
In one game I founded sids sushi and I the maintenance from to founding city which was my capital, my income went from 300 gold per turn to -1000 gold per turn. nowdays the only buildings/projects which I build and Increase maintenance are the nuke interception ones.
my suggestion would to put a cap on the maintenance of corporations and making sids sushi cost at least 70% less maintenance because I also had burgerworld and it only cost 50-60 gold per turn for each city.

Hydromancerx
Sep 26, 2011, 04:17 AM
So I am attempting to solve the over abundance of gold as well as the overrun maintenance problem. I am replacing maintenance with -:gold:. Here is the break down. Note some have already been uploaded to the SVN. I am using Sim City 4 maintenance values -100. For instance a jail in sim city coast $450 per month. When converting it to C2C it is now -45 :gold:.

Building = -:gold:

Power Plants
Power Lines = -1
DOE = -10
Coal = -10
High-Tech Coal = - 20
Oil = -15
Shale = -20
Natural Gas = -15
Methane = -15
Biomass = -15
Biofuel = -15
Waste Incinerator = -5
Nuclear = -40
Fission = -1000
Hydro = -20
3 Gorge Dam = -20
Geothermal = -20
Wind = -1
Wave = -1
Tidal = -1
Solar Mirror = -1
Solar Volt = -1
Solar Roof = -1
Solar Updraft = -100
Microwave = -50
Solar Satellite = -25

Water
DOW = -10
Town Well = -1
Artesian Well= -2
Water Pipes = -1
Irrigation Canals = -5
Aqueduct = -10
Bath House = -10
Cistern = -5
Reservoir = -5
Water Tower = -5
Hand Water Pump = -2
Wind Water Pump = -4
Water Pumping Station = -30
Desalination Plant = -60
Sewer System = -15
Water Treatment Plant = -30

Fire
Fire Hydrants = -5
Fire Brigade = -12
Fire Station = -24
Fire Dock = -24
Fire Hanger = -24

Law
Police Station = -25
Jail = -25
Prison = -30
Crucifiction Crosses = -5
Stocks = -10
Gallows = -15
Guillotine = -20
Electric Chair = -25
Lethal Injection = -30
Cryogenic Prison = -35
Chief's Hut = -5
Courthouse = -20
Local Courthouse = -20
District Courthouse = -25
Supreme Court = -30
Check Point = -10
Interrogation Building = -25
Reeducation Center = -25
Intelligence Agency = -25
Mind Control Center = -100
Scotland Yard = -25
Security Bureau = -25
Security Center = -25
Town Watch = -5
AI Surveillance = -35

Health
Insane Asylum =
More to come ...

4538'N-1347'E
Sep 26, 2011, 05:28 AM
So I am attempting to solve the over abundance of gold as well as the overrun maintenance problem. I am replacing maintenance with -:gold:. Here is the break down. Note some have already been uploaded to the SVN. I am using Sim City 4 maintenance values -100. For instance a jail in sim city coast $450 per month. When converting it to C2C it is now -45 :gold:.

Building = -:gold:

More to come ...

Just a suggestion: most of these buildings are modern buildings while the over abundance of gold is present throughout the game; and in modern era gold should be anyway more abundant than in the earlier eras because everything costs a lot more (units, buildings and so on)... so probably there will be something else to tweak as well in every era. :) So, waiting for "more to come"

Koshling
Sep 26, 2011, 06:25 AM
Just a suggestion: most of these buildings are modern buildings while the over abundance of gold is present throughout the game; and in modern era gold should be anyway more abundant than in the earlier eras because everything costs a lot more (units, buildings and so on)... so probably there will be something else to tweak as well in every era. :) So, waiting for "more to come"

I really don't think we should (for the most part) be solving this issue via building chnages. See my post on the gold thread, in support of Joseph's position.

Nevets_
Sep 26, 2011, 10:15 AM
I wouldn't base building costs on another game, I'd look at the current buildings we have that 'trade' one thing for another and try to balance it against them. For example: How much :gold: is a :) or :health: worth? Obviously in the early game not much, maybe 1 :gold: for both. The later game gold gets cheaper as you get +%:gold: buildings like grocers, banks, etc. and you have more :mad: and :yuck: buildings like airports and garrisons.

I would divide buildings into two categories:

Production buildings either extract/produce a raw resource (like a Cow Farm), or refine it into something usable (like a Dairy). They should produce :gold: from the sale of their goods, and maybe generate a little :) / :health: / :hammers: / etc. from increasing the local availability of them.

Service buildings make people's lives better, but require supplies and labor and don't return much, if any, profit. So these would cost :gold:, but provide :) and :health:, :espionage:, free XP for units, added city defense, etc. Free market civics would make these buildings less costly but less effective, socialist civics would make them more costly and more effective.

And the relative values would change as time goes on and people demand more :) :health: for less, which means you have to spend more :gold: supplying it.

Hydromancerx
Sep 26, 2011, 03:00 PM
@Nevets & Koshling

I am just using the Sim City model, like I always have. Industrial, Commercial and Residential buildings produce gold while Civic buildings like Hospitals, Police, Fire Stations, Power Plants, Water, Garbage, etc consume gold. It makes sense and has been well tested in Sim City games. The trick will be balancing it for C2C. But it should work.

Hydromancerx
Sep 27, 2011, 04:31 AM
So after some testing my -:gold: went too far. Now I can hardly keep my science slider up from 0%. So I think I need to reduce the amount of -:gold: all these buildings are giving. But by how much? What should determine how much negative gold a building has? Should it be opposite of its benefit (ex. +1:health: = -1 :gold:)? Should it be by the era its is in? Should just be a standard -1:gold:?

BlueGenie
Sep 27, 2011, 05:55 AM
Considering that it's per city a +:) or +:health: shouldn't cost too much. Wanting buildings to give +5:) in 10 cities would be a lot if each cost 5:gold: each, 250:gold: per turn. 1:gold: each would still be 50:gold: for 10 cities, and that's not counting costs for :health: increases. Keeping the maintenance increase would in my opinion be better as a bigger city then pays more for higher :) and :health:.

Maybe it'd be better and easier to change the way corporations and guilds work instead as most of the really high costs seem to come once they have been established. I'm not all that familiar with how they work so hard pressed to give suggestions. Reduced increase in maintenance perhaps, or have them cost a flat sum. Maybe even consider them privatized and not costing for the player and the civ itself though set them to not only give a bonus but also a penalty of some kind, depending on what corporation it is of course.

Anyway, that's my though.

Cheers

EldrinFal
Sep 27, 2011, 09:46 AM
Maybe it'd be better and easier to change the way corporations and guilds work instead as most of the really high costs seem to come once they have been established. I'm not all that familiar with how they work so hard pressed to give suggestions. Reduced increase in maintenance perhaps, or have them cost a flat sum. Maybe even consider them privatized and not costing for the player and the civ itself though set them to not only give a bonus but also a penalty of some kind, depending on what corporation it is of course.

Anyway, that's my though.

Cheers

Guilds and corps aren't the only issue. They certainly add to it, but :gold: is widely available even without them.

Nevets_
Sep 27, 2011, 11:17 AM
So after some testing my -:gold: went too far. Now I can hardly keep my science slider up from 0%. So I think I need to reduce the amount of -:gold: all these buildings are giving. But by how much? What should determine how much negative gold a building has? Should it be opposite of its benefit (ex. +1:health: = -1 :gold:)? Should it be by the era its is in? Should just be a standard -1:gold:?

Here's what I was thinking:

Prehistoric Era:
-1:gold: = +1 :) & +1 :health:
-1:gold: = +0.15:health: / person

Ancient Era:
-2:gold: = +1 :) & +2 :health:
-1:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Classical Era
-3:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-2:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Medieval Era:
-4:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-3:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Too many icons, continued in next post.

Koshling
Sep 27, 2011, 11:18 AM
Guilds and corps aren't the only issue. They certainly add to it, but :gold: is widely available even without them.

Guilds and corporations fix the gold issue and give you significant difficulty staying solvent in fact. They certainly don't add to the gold issue (at least not the corps I've had experience with - typically spreading a corporation in a city costs me about 100 gold per turn extra maintanence I have found at late industrial)

Nevets_
Sep 27, 2011, 11:18 AM
Renaissance Era:
-5:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-4:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Industrial Era:
-6:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-5:gold: = +0.10:health: / person
-10:gold: for dirty power

Modern Era:
-7:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-6:gold: = +0.10:health: / person
-20:gold: for clean power

This way the there is a gradual increase in costs. Players will want to build the early inexpensive buildings (representing basic needs like shelter, clean water, etc.) before the more later, more expensive ones (representing non-critical needs like entertainment, food variety, etc.)

If a building gives extra :culture: or :hammers: just bump the cost up 1 or 2 :gold:

Nevets_
Sep 27, 2011, 11:22 AM
Guilds and corporations fix the gold issue and give you significant difficulty staying solvent in fact. They certainly don't add to the gold issue (at least not the corps I've had experience with - typically spreading a corporation in a city costs me about 100 gold per turn extra maintanence I have found at late industrial)

The problem with corporations as a money sink is that the only useful ones are the :hammers: and :food: ones, the :science:, :culture:, and :gold: ones cost more way than they give you, you could get more just adjusting your sliders. And the :) and :health: ones are basically worthless since there are so many :) and :health: buildings already.

Koshling
Sep 27, 2011, 11:29 AM
The problem with corporations as a money sink is that the only useful ones are the :hammers: and :food: ones, the :science:, :culture:, and :gold: ones cost more way than they give you, you could get more just adjusting your sliders. And the :) and :health: ones are basically worthless since there are so many :) and :health: buildings already.

Agreed. I wsn't trying to argue they are/should be the solution to any putative gold issues, simply that as things stand they certainyl don' make them worse.

EldrinFal
Sep 27, 2011, 11:56 AM
Agreed. I wsn't trying to argue they are/should be the solution to any putative gold issues, simply that as things stand they certainyl don' make them worse.

I haven't used them much in C2C, but my understanding of them from Vanilla was that if you had the HQ in your city, but placed the Corporations themselves in your opponents cities, he could get the Food / Hammer bonus, but the HQ in your city would get :gold: from the presence of those branches in his cities. Is that not how it works anymore?

Koshling
Sep 27, 2011, 12:00 PM
I haven't used them much in C2C, but my understanding of them from Vanilla was that if you had the HQ in your city, but placed the Corporations themselves in your opponents cities, he could get the Food / Hammer bonus, but the HQ in your city would get :gold: from the presence of those branches in his cities. Is that not how it works anymore?

Yes, but the hammers/food bonus can be HUGE and you want it yourself. You don't buiold corporation for gold any more, you build them for the food/production.

EldrinFal
Sep 27, 2011, 12:07 PM
Yes, but the hammers/food bonus can be HUGE and you want it yourself. You don't buiold corporation for gold any more, you build them for the food/production.

But if the headquarters from them still make a monetary profit from each you have, and you have them all over your empire, and the HQ is located in your :gold: geared city with all the :gold: bonuses, high trade, Stock Markets, Wallstreet, and any other NW or WW you can get to boost :gold: in there... that would rake in a lot of extra :gold:

Or am I missing something?

Koshling
Sep 27, 2011, 12:16 PM
But if the headquarters from them still make a monetary profit from each you have, and you have them all over your empire, and the HQ is located in your :gold: geared city with all the :gold: bonuses, high trade, Stock Markets, Wallstreet, and any other NW or WW you can get to boost :gold: in there... that would rake in a lot of extra :gold:

Or am I missing something?

You're missing that each OTHER city you have them in (because you really want the food/production there which is very sigificant) has a HUGE maintenance cost. Literally cities were going from like 10-20 gold per turn to 150 or so as soon as the corp spreads to them. The headquarters only gives you 4/city before multipliers and 4 takes a lot of amplification to make up for -50 to -100. Almost certainly the corporation maintenance costs need looking at, but it's not totally unsustainable (just means you have to work at finnces at that point) due to the prevalence of gold until then.

Nevets_
Sep 27, 2011, 12:18 PM
Unfortunately you get something like 1 or 2 :gold: / city with that corporation, basically just like the vanilla religious shrines. Unfortunately the increased maintenance costs from having the corporation in just one of your cities is usually enough to wipe out any profit you might get from spreading your corp to other cities, not to mention the actual gold cost of building and using executives.

EldrinFal
Sep 27, 2011, 12:27 PM
You're missing that each OTHER city you have them in (because you really want the food/production there which is very sigificant) has a HUGE maintenance cost. Literally cities were going from like 10-20 gold per turn to 150 or so as soon as the corp spreads to them. The headquarters only gives you 4/city before multipliers and 4 takes a lot of amplification to make up for -50 to -100. Almost certainly the corporation maintenance costs need looking at, but it's not totally unsustainable (just means you have to work at finnces at that point) due to the prevalence of gold until then.

That is probably why I used to just setup branches in the AI's city, collect the gold at HQ, and not deal with the Maintenance (in stock BTS). So for my use of it then, it was just to get gold.

I guess in C2C it is a different story since gold is much more abundant.

Hydromancerx
Sep 27, 2011, 06:32 PM
Here's what I was thinking:

Prehistoric Era:
-1:gold: = +1 :) & +1 :health:
-1:gold: = +0.15:health: / person

Ancient Era:
-2:gold: = +1 :) & +2 :health:
-1:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Classical Era
-3:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-2:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Medieval Era:
-4:gold: = +2 :) & +2 :health:
-3:gold: = +0.10:health: / person

Too many icons, continued in next post.

I think I am going to first start out with a standard -1:gold: to all buildings that apply. If there is still to much excess gold then I will start making different builds cost more than -1:gold:. This seems like the safest method to finding balance.

EldrinFal
Sep 27, 2011, 06:42 PM
I think I am going to first start out with a standard -1:gold: to all buildings that apply. If there is still to much excess gold then I will start making different builds cost more than -1:gold:. This seems like the safest method to finding balance.

So how are -:gold: buildings affected when using Civics that change whether they are state or privately owned?

Hydromancerx
Sep 27, 2011, 06:49 PM
So how are -:gold: buildings affected when using Civics that change whether they are state or privately owned?

Nothing yet. Nor am I sure how to apply gold changes with civics. Just tying to get a base gold set up first. Then we can get all fancy with civics changing their cost.

Hydromancerx
Sep 27, 2011, 08:25 PM
So some surprising results. Having implemented -1:gold: for the power plants, water, law enforcement, fire, and education. And with those in mid game I balance at 85% science. I still have the garbage, health and transportation buildings to implement too. I wonder if just a -1:gold: will be enough to balance things out.

I mean what should be the balance goal of this? Is it to get gold under 100% science rate? If so I have already passed that.

Nevets_
Sep 27, 2011, 09:23 PM
Don't forget that not everyone builds every building, not every city needs every building. For example, Town Wells only get built in cities with no fresh water (and sometimes not even then since they are :health: neutral, so their real advantage is to allow nearby farming).

Plus some civics like Patrician give you lots of gold. I would look for a 'best case' scenario, where a player specializes in gold production, but still only break even when at 100% :science:. So if you build crime buildings but forgo justice ones, avoid :)/:health: buildings until necessary, etc. and still can only keep your head above water at 100% :science:, then a player with a more well-rounded strategy would need to keep 10-20% :gold:.

From my experience:
When you did just the water buildings at high -:gold: my late-medieval game at 10% :gold: slider went from +1000 to +500. With the next update and all the fire/law buildings it went down to +0, and with this low -:gold: change it's back to +800.

Maybe as a rule of thumb, Prehistoric / Ancient / Classical buildings cost -1:gold:, Medieval / Renaisance / Industrial buildings cost -2:gold:, Modern -> Future Era buildings cost -3:gold:. I think any higher -:gold: and the AI will avoid that building like the plague, I cant see it building a -10 :gold: / turn sewer even if it's a prereq for the good housing.

EldrinFal
Sep 27, 2011, 10:21 PM
Don't forget that not everyone builds every building, not every city needs every building. For example, Town Wells only get built in cities with no fresh water (and sometimes not even then since they are :health: neutral, so their real advantage is to allow nearby farming).

True on the first part. As for Wells, I build them because they are required for the Tower, which I believe is required for the Water Treatment facility which reduces food needed to grow a town. So sometimes you have to "suffer" through a low end building to get one later that has a benefit you want. I actually don't think Town Wells should cost any :gold: though. How much maintenance do they really require? Equal to the entire profit of a Deer Herd? Water Towers and Treatment for sure though.

Hydromancerx
Sep 27, 2011, 10:42 PM
From my experience:
When you did just the water buildings at high -:gold: my late-medieval game at 10% :gold: slider went from +1000 to +500. With the next update and all the fire/law buildings it went down to +0, and with this low -:gold: change it's back to +800.


Thank you for the feedback. Once I upload the rest (health, transportation, etc) let me know how that works. I suspect that the health buildings will have the biggest impact since they are rather important to keep your city from being unhealthy. Thus players will have to build some health buildings.

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 28, 2011, 02:53 AM
In my current game I have not had my science above 70% the whole game. With it down at 40% at one time. (rest is Tax) I think it is because I don't have any gold or silver.

Hydromancerx
Sep 28, 2011, 05:13 AM
In my current game I have not had my science above 70% the whole game. With it down at 40% at one time. (rest is Tax) I think it is because I don't have any gold or silver.

Is this with the new changes of -1:gold: for all the new "civic" buildings?

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 28, 2011, 07:07 AM
Is this with the new changes of -1:gold: for all the new "civic" buildings?

Yes, but I never got to them. The game had a graphic crash early medieval era.

Nevets_
Sep 28, 2011, 08:58 AM
I think it is because I don't have any gold or silver.

Jewelries are the first real :gold: multiplier building, not getting one can be a real disadvantage. I think it might be a good idea to make them a little more accessible, maybe adding copper (or even stone / obsidian to represent semi-precious stones like lapis lazuli or turquoise) to the list of things that let you build them?

Hydromancerx
Sep 28, 2011, 03:05 PM
Jewelries are the first real :gold: multiplier building, not getting one can be a real disadvantage. I think it might be a good idea to make them a little more accessible, maybe adding copper (or even stone / obsidian to represent semi-precious stones like lapis lazuli or turquoise) to the list of things that let you build them?

We have special buildings (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=298266&d=1313109388) that make those already.

Gems + Copper = Turquoise Mine

We don't appear to have Lapis Lazuli, but i can always add one.

Nevets_
Sep 28, 2011, 03:29 PM
That's all well and good, but with the rarity of gems and copper I doubt there are more than 1 or 2 spots on a giant map that you could found a city to build it. I was just saying the +10% :gold: +25% trade routes from a jewelry are a pretty big bonus, if players who can build them by the ancient age are rolling in money and players who can't are suffering with 70% :science:, maybe they should be easier to get. Jewelry can be made using bronze, copper, pewter, ivory, etc. Maybe you don't get the +2% :gold: from having a precious metal, but losing out on the other benefits seems kind of harsh.

Hydromancerx
Sep 28, 2011, 03:56 PM
@Nevets

That reminds me I need to set up the whole Jewelers crafting web. So many aspects of the game to do. Seems like I have too much on my plate. I will hopefully get to it eventually, since I did have a plan for it using the goods system and the "smithing" buildings. Basically the gem mines would make Good (Raw Gems) and then it would unlock a Gem Cutter which would make Good (Cut Gems). Meanwhile the smithing buildings like the Goldsmith or Silversmith would produce Good (Precious Metals) which along with Good (Cut Gems) would unlock the Jeweler's. In short ..

Fake Resource -> Processing -> Jeweler's

Koshling
Sep 28, 2011, 04:12 PM
@Nevets

That reminds me I need to set up the whole Jewelers crafting web. So many aspects of the game to do. Seems like I have too much on my plate. I will hopefully get to it eventually, since I did have a plan for it using the goods system and the "smithing" buildings. Basically the gem mines would make Good (Raw Gems) and then it would unlock a Gem Cutter which would make Good (Cut Gems). Meanwhile the smithing buildings like the Goldsmith or Silversmith would produce Good (Precious Metals) which along with Good (Cut Gems) would unlock the Jeweler's. In short ..

Fake Resource -> Processing -> Jeweler's

Doesn't that sequence mean you'd be out of luck if you didn't have gems? i.e. - there is no jewlery that doesn't involve gems, so just gold, or semi-precious stones etc. are not good enough ever?

JosEPh_II
Sep 28, 2011, 04:17 PM
What if you don't use Guilds or Corps? Especially if you've struggled to understand how to make them work properly? Will I be penalized for Not building them? Will my slider be down to 0, 0r 10% for research while the AI is romping away?

Guess I'll have to wait and see.
OT:
For right now I'm making major changes to my CivicsInfos xml file on all Gov't and many of the Power Civics to reduce WW and types of yeilds they should get. And to rearrange how I believe the Civics should behave as to their type. Ex. you'll have a hard time proving to me That Communism should have a +25% production bonus. Or that there wasn't/isn't a cost to maintain Military units from the population for it. Or that there wasn't food shortages. The Kremlin may have been rich but the country was poor. I've also lowered for the most part the Gold yields on those Civics.

JosEPh

Hydromancerx
Sep 28, 2011, 04:22 PM
Doesn't that sequence mean you'd be out of luck if you didn't have gems? i.e. - there is no jewlery that doesn't involve gems, so just gold, or semi-precious stones etc. are not good enough ever?

It depends upon what the bonus buildings make. I could make a set of bonus resources that do not require gems, such as stone + 2nd resource or obsidian + 2nd resource. I could also set it up so it would be an OR such as Good (Cut Gems) OR Good (Precious Metals). I could even throw in Good (Ivory) or other such non-mineral jewelery (up to 5 choices).

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 28, 2011, 04:27 PM
What if you don't use Guilds or Corps? Especially if you've struggled to understand how to make them work properly? Will I be penalized for Not building them? Will my slider be down to 0, 0r 10% for research while the AI is romping away?

JosEPh

I have Guilds turned off, always. Not that that is stopping it suggesting I build them - I must look into that, should be a simple bit of XML that has gone missing.

EldrinFal
Sep 28, 2011, 04:37 PM
What if you don't use Guilds or Corps? Especially if you've struggled to understand how to make them work properly? Will I be penalized for Not building them? Will my slider be down to 0, 0r 10% for research while the AI is romping away?

Guess I'll have to wait and see.
OT:
For right now I'm making major changes to my CivicsInfos xml file on all Gov't and many of the Power Civics to reduce WW and types of yeilds they should get. And to rearrange how I believe the Civics should behave as to their type. Ex. you'll have a hard time proving to me That Communism should have a +25% production bonus. Or that there wasn't/isn't a cost to maintain Military units from the population for it. Or that there wasn't food shortages. The Kremlin may have been rich but the country was poor. I've also lowered for the most part the Gold yields on those Civics.

JosEPh

I've been looking at restructuring the Civics entirely and if you think you have a firm grasp on politics, economics, govts, etc. I would be interested in getting your input.
I'm pretty picky about establishing a realistic model and it's sort of my "downfall" because it's taking me longer just to CONCEPTUALIZE and organize what I think Civics should be. I could probably use the help of someone with additional "life experience" ;)

Hydromancerx
Oct 08, 2011, 10:03 PM
More importantly, update me on all changes so I can update my growing spreadsheet that covers all buildings. This is my first step in looking to do balance work across the whole system of buildings.

Are you still working on this?

Thunderbrd
Oct 09, 2011, 03:40 AM
yeah... still on the plate to complete. You guys were changing things too quickly for me to get an edge in on it but I really just came to realize I didn't have as much time as I'd thought I would. I think I can find some more now for it. I still have the tool that Koshling built for me and I just gotta make sure I can get it running once I'm logged onto the SVN.

Hydromancerx
Oct 09, 2011, 04:30 AM
Sounds good. Such data should be helpful to balancing things. Right now its hit and miss.

EldrinFal
Oct 09, 2011, 01:20 PM
Seconded.