RBP5 - Defiant Nationalists of Japan (Succession game)

A 'Defiant' civ takes "no guff!", never giving in to tribute demands or paying for peace
The Nationalist in Civilization has a supreme view of itself as a nation, putting its own
interests first above all others, shuns globalism, and has a keen view of independence.

The proposed "Defiant Nationalist" rules are:
* No giving in to tribute, ever. That includes never paying for peace.
* May never sign mutual protection pacts, military alliance, right of passage, or embargo
* Any troops in your land must be told to leave immediately
* No capturing of foreign cities or demanding cities in tribute (flips/propaganda are ok)
* No qualms about dastardly actions in the best interest of our nation
(e.g., steal tech, military blockades, wars of aggression, neutral pillaging...)
* If an AI razes one of your cities, it must be eliminated (timeframe up to you)
* Foreign workers may never be added to your cities.
* Nationalism should be learned ASAP upon entering Industrial era
* Every city size 7+ at this time, and subsequent cities reaching size 7 for first time,
MUST draft a unit for defense of that city. (So eventually, a conscript in every 'city')

Other comments to set the spirit of the game...

- International reputation is simply not a high priority, although treaties are not
broken for simply monetary gain. Under the rules described though, I can't see
getting in situations where you would have to cancel a treaty early,
since you have no RoP, no alliances, tell troops to leave rather than openly
declare, and have 20 turns to 'prepare' for required action. The above list of
rules is longer than I like, but I hope the "spirit" of the game is quite clear.
- If a city you found is captured, you should not rest until that city is recovered
Peace before that occurs is an option, but do not forsake the city - work to get it back!
- Be careful about AI expanding their borders 'onto' your units. If the expansion is into
your territory this is certainly 'guff' and you would refuse, taking the annexation
of your space as an act of war. Alas, the international community will see it as a sneak
attack. There is precedence for not caring what others say about sneak attacks!
- Any govt form is allowed, but if the people start whining about weariness, take no
guff from them either! Strike down the insurrection and change to become an
Emperor (Monarchy) or an Ultranationalist Government (Communism)
- Refusing tribute and having no alliances is going to make for a MAJOR challenge -
expect at least one "dogpile" on us, which won't be pretty :)

Game details for RBP5:
- Difficulty: Deity
- Civ: Japan, led by Emperor Meiji
- Map: Standard, medium pangaea, random attributes, restless barbarians. No respawn.
- Foes: Mostly random, with a few foes traditional to Meiji era
- Victory conditions for player: cultural, space, domination, conquest.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-StartMap.jpg

With starting tile right on a river, with game and several bonus grasslands nearby,
and nice combo of forests, grass and hills, this looks like a pretty decent start.

Comments on civ choice. I wanted a military civ, preferably a fast UU, but
one that comes fairly early, and is sturdy. On Emperor diff I probably like
Rome as the Legionaries will do well, and last quite a while, but on Deity,
you're rather likely to see things fly into early Middle Ages, and you need
something that is useful throughout that era. Combine these, add in religious
trait for cheap temples and culture to keep foes nicer, and Japan is a great
choice. Plus, they have a historical nationalistic bent that fits well. So
much so I looked for an alternate, later era leader, and Meiji seemed appropriate.
Emperor Meiji toppled the Tokugawa shogunate and led Japan through unparalleled
modernization and growth, with a strong underlying nationalistic fervor.

Acknowledgements: Thanks to Iteen and ukrneal for their ideals on a Defiant
game and a nationalism-focused game. These, along with some ideas and playtesting
of my own led to this variant. Thanks also to cpp1 and others who helped shape the
rules for this game. I hope it works well!

Roster:
Arathorn
Architect
cpp1
Charis
Semi-open slot (Urugharakh will fill if needed; deity experience is a must)

First player should take up to 40 turns, second player 20, then 10 after that.
(This is a schedule I normally use for peaceful games. If we go to war real early
be prepared to adjust) We, uniquely, start out with wheel and horse knowledge.
Finding out where iron is seems important, as it's needed for our UU (and swords).

Save File RBP5-Japan-bc4000.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Japan-bc4000.zip)

Be careful, and have fun :)
Charis

PS - I generated the map to be able to check for a 'dud' by playing through
a few turns. It turns out the first map seems fine, so I quickly stopped and
we'll go with that. (Nevertheless, I'll go last in the order and make no early
comments!)

Interesting variant, but far too tough for me. Perhaps in the future. BTW Charis... I've seen some claim that the step from regent to monarch is the hardest. How about the step from monarch to emperor as I feel I'm ready for that pretty soon?

Good luck on the game. I'll be watching. I have a feel it'll be...hmmm.... interesting :)

Umm...Charis? Is there an order inherent in that roster list? It looks alphabetical (or close enough)...you're not listed last, and I'm a bit confused. Do you want me to take the first slot?

@Harlequin: I'm not Charis, but I found the step from Emperor to Deity to be the hardest. I don' t think the Monarch->Emperor jump is very hard (but I'm a bit biased, as I jumped from Regeant to Emperor, back in the early days....)

Arathorn

Arathorn the order was as intended, go ahead and start :P
I'm going last because I played a few turns to verify non-dud start.

Chances of remaining 3 being alphabetical... 1 in 6, not so bad.

Two general comments based on the game rules. First you have a good idea from experience about 'when' we'll get our first tribute demand. The difference here from other deity games is that we'll tell them to shove and and we'll be in a war. The second important difference is that when they march through our lands there will be no "DeityROP(TM)". We'll tell them to take a hike. They might, or... they might not. Each player will have to consider the 'shape' of our territory, and whether we invite other civs to wander all over it, or can we (should we?) present a bounded non-convex surface. Oops, that's using Arathorn's language - I mean: we should consider the implications of founding a city that makes our borders "jut out" in a region where the AI will naturally walk through it to get to the other side. Finally, although we won't start with immediate war, we really don't get to 'pick' the timing of it, and if we try a farmer's gambit the game will be over in the blink of an eye. It will need a careful balance of expansion (for power and for resources) and military preparedness.

I can't much comment on the Regent-Monarch transition, but from the stats it doesn't seem like it really should be that bad. I also think Emp->Deity was definitely hardest. Monarch to Emp is really tough because of the very quick unhappiness, but I think going up to Emperor the game feels like it's moderately "harder" with each step up. But Deity feels like it's a totally new game. (And it is) Other steps leave you yelling "Ouch!!", but that last step leaves you crying "Mommy!!". If you go to a strategy forum and see what lower difficulty strats are being suggested, they tend to work across the board up to Emperor (with Emp itself seeing a few strats not work 'so well'). But very few of the strats or tips given for non-deity carry over to deity.

If you're thinking about stepping up from Monarch to Emperor, go for it! When not done prematurely that's a very fun and satisfying step up. There's a LOT of games in these forums now that describe tough Monarch and Emperor games, including when the LK series and the RB series made that transition, so you can probably see a lot of comments there on what's different.

Good luck :p
Charis

want to play but... must not overcommit, must not...

want to play but... must not overcommit, must not...

You're a smarter man than I, Gothmog!! :lol:

Hmm... in the interest of having another person curse my challenges... what if you and Urugharakh alternated turns, as you both are interested but rightfully concerned about committment?!??! Time required would be 1/2 of an SG.

:yeah:

Charis
(PS don't construe that as pressure of any kind, I truly don't want to see anyone (else) getting burned out on civ right now!)

It's really not an issue of getting burned out. Due to my currently hectic RL I just can't get enough! I'm in two SG's right now and I don't want to slow either down, nor this one. I'm sure you'll get lots of interest for that last spot. But if you don't by next week I'll see what I can do about overcommiting myself.

This should be a good read, can't wait until you guys start it.

I'm not sure if I'll get to this one tonight or not. I've got Menagerie to finish up first, but health is starting to creep back into the younger one's system, so there's a chance I'll be human enough to get to this one, too, tonight. If not tonight, almost assuredly tomorrow night. (And here I was hoping to squeeze in an RBP3 turn, those are MY kinda odds, there.)

Arathorn

Another Charis SG... now if there was an emperor one.. I'd probably join. I've been in a couple of Sulla's monarchy succession games almost a year ago.

Arathorn, I have a feeling RBP3 will still be there when you're free - the situation is dire and folks are a bit tentative about picking it up. And it does sound up your alley :)

Chieftess, I'll have a slot for you next Emperor game. After this deity warmongering trio I'm almost certain to want to chill out somewhat for the next SG!

Thank you to lurkers and well wishers, it's nice to know when there are readers. I'll try to add more "story" from time to time as a result :p

Charis

At long last, the people of Meiji begin their striving to become a strong people, a people filled with a sense of duty, a sense of self, and a sense of pride in their nation.

In 4000 BC, lo those long years ago, the first settler of the Japanese people formed Kyoto, a beacom of what the nations should understand to be the first of many cities from people who take no guff.

After a mere 500 years, an exploring Japanese warrior met a warrior from another band, a band calling themselves Babylonians, only a short walk to the north. These people are quite reasonable, giving up a work crew and 10 gold, merely for knowledge of how to build circular objects.

A mere 200 years later, the people of Mao were met, also ignorant of the ways of a circle. They give up knowledge of pointy sticks, food storage (which we'd nearly figured out ourselves), a worker, and 4 gold for such knowledge. Had our sages known such people were so near, we could have waited before trading with Hammurabi. Alas, foresight is never as clear as hindsight.

Later that year, Pottery and 42 gold found its way to the Babylonian people for the secrets of training warriors, both in general, and with weapons that can travel a distance. This code will surely be useful to such a proud people.

3000 BC saw the clearing of the forest near the game. This sped the completion of a granary and gave one high-food square so that our people may grow strong.

By 2470 BC, the Japanese people had expanded to a second city, in the north, near a herd of wild horses. This city was built on a hill for defense, guarded by a brave, proud warrior. The barbarians in the area thought little of his skill, attacking and killing him, raping 57 gold from the Japanese people. For such a proud people, we do not fight against barbarians well, as with that battle, we have now lost two units to barbs, having down a total of 1 hp damage against them.

We also order out a Chinese warrior, who stepped into our area. Granted, he killed a barbarian who would've pillaged us more, but such incursions are not to be tolerated. Mao, surprisingly, agreed, when he had a warrior next to an undefended city, and could easily have destroyed our fledgling nation.

2390 was a year of trades, where Meiji sent out a number of emissaries bearing gifts of gold, to minimize our treasury so that sacking barbarians would not get much. 25 gold and a promise of another 100 over the next 20 turns convinced the Babylonians to teach us their mystical ways of worship. This knowledge, one gold and another 20 over the next few hundred years convinced Mao to teach us the art of castle building, as well as anything else our newly masons guild can devise. Hence, the barbs only got one gold from the sack of our cities.

In 2310, Meiji I was finally growing old. A settler was due from Kyoto soon, and may head west to garner some incense from the hills there. Kyoto requires very special care, as 4+2+4=10, as does 3+3+4, but always 4 food should be achieved the last turn before growth, to maximize the governor's shields upon growth. 9+11=20, so that many units can be formed between settlers. I recommend a warrior (with 3 extra food), then a spear/archer, before starting the next settler.

VERY soon, however, we will need to stop expanding and start creating units, as war is on the horizon. Kyoto has a barracks to prepare for such eventuality.

Save at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-2150bc.zip

Arathorn

PS No map as we don't have map-making yet! :p That, and I forgot to print one. :o

Our glorious nation!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-2150bc.jpg

2110BC(0) - I am proud. Proud to be a Japanese citizen. Proud to be the leader of our great Japanese Nation. Proud to lead us to glory! Kyoto is indeed a micromanager's paradise and I will do my best to follow the wise words of Arathorn.

IT: The chinese already found near the incense. Bastards. I'm going to cultural push them.

2070BC(1) - We enact revenge upon the barbarians and find 25 of our stolen gold.

IT: Babs start the Oracle.

2030BC(2) - We meet the Americans.

1990BC(3) - We found Tokyo two squares from the Chengdu. I defy the chinese agression on rightful Japanese lands.

1950BC(4) - ...

1910BC(5) - The russians and babs are at war.

IT: The babs demand 20g tribute and I tell them to stuff it. They declare war!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5defybabs.jpg

A warrior defends against a bowmen.

1870BC(6) - I see no less than 5 Bowmen moving towards our borders. I veto temple in Osaka for a barracks.

1830BC(7) - Trying to regroup forces and defend our cities while archers build.

1790BC(8) - Edo is founded south of Kyoto

1750BC(9) - Barracks complete in Osaka.

IT: We are sold contact to Korea and they offer to sell us contact to the egyptians. I swing alphabet, iron working, horseback riding for contact with the chinese, russians, and babs.. Probably the only chance I would have had to sell them.

1725BC(10) - We have Iron in our borders just north of Osaka in the mountains.

1700BC(11) - There are 3 bowmen in sight of our lands. We have 2 archers, 2 spearman and 2 warriors around close to these bowmen. I obtain writing from the russians for Contact with Americans, Horseback riding, Contact with Egyptians and 1g. I trade writing to the Egyptians for 79g.

1675BC(12) - Our archer defeats a bowmen.

IT: Our archer beats a bowmen an promotes to an elite (2hp left). The other bowmen retreat at the sight of our glorious troops! (probably because of pressure from the russians)

1650BC(13) - I'm building another settler in Kyoto.

1625BC(14) - Babs are retreating.

1600BC(15) - We produce a settler in Kyoto. I'm going to leave it to the next leader to decide where to found. My suggestion would be to found agressively towards babylon. We need to take advantage of their weakened position against the russians and gain some land. The babs will not accept peace without tribute. I suggest we get a few more archers and go take UR from them. Remember, we can't pay for peace.

1600BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp51600bc.zip)

Here's a very rough dotmap. No priority because of the war. Be agressive.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5dotmap.jpg

Got it, but won't be able to finish until tomorrow night.

Sheesh, sure didn't take long for the AI to give us guff.
Someone forgot to tell them that...

... we don't take no guff!!! :hammer:

Nice start Arathorn. The wheel monopoly never hurts, eh?

> We also order out a Chinese warrior, who stepped into our
> area. Granted, he killed a barbarian who would've pillaged us
> more, but such incursions are not to be tolerated. Mao,
> surprisingly, agreed, when he had a warrior next to an
> undefended city, and could easily have destroyed our fledgling nation.

:eek: Phew! :P

> VERY soon, however, we will need to stop expanding and start
> creating units, as war is on the horizon. Kyoto has a barracks
> to prepare for such eventuality.

Prophetic!

Architect, also a nice set of turns.

> The chinese already found near the incense. Bastards. I'm
> going to cultural push them.

That's it! No guff!!

> The russians and babs are at war.
Looks like the Russians take no guff either.

> IT: The babs demand 20g tribute and I tell them to stuff it. They
> declare war!

Hammy seems to be a gruff buffoon!

> I see no less than 5 Bowmen moving towards our borders. I
> veto temple in Osaka for a barracks.

:eek:

>We have Iron in our borders just north of Osaka in the mountains.

TRULY good news!

> The other bowmen retreat at the sight of our glorious troops!
> (probably because of pressure from the russians)

YAHOO! Who says you have to cave-in on deity!?

> We produce a settler in Kyoto. I'm going to leave it to the next
> leader to decide where to found. My suggestion would be to
> found agressively towards babylon. We need to take
> advantage of their weakened position against the russians and
> gain some land.

That sounds good, but... either this settler or next should almost SURELY go after the iron. Besides the extremely good reason of making swords (reason in itself), it might deny someone, and in this particular game, there's a really key reason... giving no destination spots to anyone that cross through our land. See if someone now where to walk east through our land to head for the iron, it would get us into a ill-timed second war. Any land we grab really must not jut out like a finger (to be chopped off) and if we can hug the coast and grow as a blob, it will help.

Let me give another example - see those two squares in our territory which are NW of Tokyo? They jut out. Just a tiny bit actually, but anyone going NE from Chengu will cross our squares, and risk a war. At a point where we have extra units, we'll want to plant them on spots like these to discourage incursions. Likewise when we found the red dot east of Osaka, when we have a few troops to spare, position them at the corner where troops would naturally end up cutting across our land. (These 'small points' are suggested after seeing this a lot in my France no-guff game.)

The problem with the red dot NW of Osaka is that it *REALLY* juts out. Other civs will walk over our land like it's a public highway. It would almost surely lead to an extra war, perhaps at a time like when we have a SOD two squares from UR. I would be prone to settle less aggressively with respect to our nations' border shape, and go a little more densely, and more to the east first. I would probably move the red dot due east of Kyoto one square west (3 steps from capital), then found on the hill next to the iron east of that. The red dot east of Osaka looks good. I also like the red dot near China south of Tokyo. These suggestions sum to 8 cities in a region which doesn't invite trouble. We'll get a ton of trouble from 'tributes' which we can't do much about, but we CAN try to reduce our trouble from war declarations after "get out!"

Anyway, that's my 2c, use your judgement, and as Architect said, be aggressive :D
Charis

(PS I'm commenting now since you've gotten well past my quick starting test, and know as much as I did. The civ 'shape' suggestions and what trouble we're due for are purely based on my France game, and not on this game specifically or on early deity war.)

The iron is already in our borders and just needs to be hooked up. Charis, do a dotmap of what you said and throw mine out. I really didn't spend enough time on it, hence my term "Rough".

Oh, THAT Iron! Didn't see it in the first map, I was referring to the one near eastern coast. Shortage of Iron for AI sounds like a good thing!

I was more advocating watching our boundary shape than picking on the roughmap :P But ok, here's a picture of what I'm talking about...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Dotmap-1600BC.jpg

Red dots (A, B, C, D, E, in no major order of preference) are possible city sites. B and D are moderately tight, but nothing ICS like. E is stretching it, a small fill-in half-city. A is important because it can seal our borders. B is important as it secures a second Iron, deny's one, and keeps an AI from sending a settler pair into our territory to claim it. Likewise D and the horse it sits on. I think we'll want "8" rather than "7" cities in this overall region. 'C' can go where shown, or as the arrow shows it, on top of a hill for better defense. The other sites are likely higher priority in that settling near 'C' doesn't force an immediate war, although when we're ready (or when china shows guff, we can capture whatever is settled near there)

The BLUE SQUARES on the map, (some labeled X, Y, Z) are important to put troops on when we can afford that, to avoid the AI waltzing through our land, risking a war. The Green dots are lower priority, for a more full seal off, after the blue, if and when we can spare the units.

As shown, this core region constitutes a square with two edges on the water. Guarding the 'corners' of the other sides makes it a region no one will want to 'pass through' to get somewhere else. Leave B or D unsettled for long and we'll see many tresspassers.
Settling up north would see exactly what is shown now - a Pink warrior tromping all over it - but then it would be our land and require a boot.

We'll need to cause Babylon more pain to get SOME payment for peace, so killing more troops or razing (not capturing) Ur would do that nicely (even pillaging would do). Founding or capturing up there is an option, but we would probably want to place units on every square to prevent trespassing.

Good luck!
Charis

Summary: The Defiant Nationals are still pursuing glorious war with
the Babs. We have 2 more cities, a map of the known world, 3 more
techs, and 1 more worker. We killed 4 Bab bowman, and lost a warrior
and an archer.

Preturn: I change lux tax from 30% to 20%. Also mm Kyoto to get warrior
in 1 turn with +2 food. Would like to unload some gold to get and trade
Math but everything we have is "doubtful". Decide to send settler to
city dot A, which will become Satsuma. This seals our borders and gives
a base to attack that Bab city just N, which turns out to be Akkad. I
think this is a better target than Ur because it combines city building
with attacking.

Goals:
Hook up horses
Settle more cities
Attack Babs and try to get peace
Get map of the world

1575BC: Decide to unload some gold to reduce tribute likelihood. Choose
to buy Math from Korea because they're cheapest and not near us.
Buy Math from Korea for 180g
Sell Math to Russia for 48g (all they have)
Sell Math to America for 38g (all they have)

Set research to Lit at 10% (40 turns)
Set lux to 10%
Road to Osaka finishes, move worker to start road to future Satsuma at
city dot A. Bab bowman comes into view NE of Osaka.

(I) Another Bab bowman shows up beside the earlier one.

1550BC: Change lux to 30% for Keyoto growth. Elite archer fires on 1st Bab
bowman that showed up. Initially loses, but comes back and survives with
1hp left. He is covered by 2 spear and settler heading for city dot A.

(I) Other Bab bowman attacks covering spear and loses. Barb shows up near
Osaka from Mts SE of Osaka.

1525BC: Babs got Poly, but no one else has it. Babs require 40g for peace.
Move spear and settler to city site A. Wounded spear and elite archer
retreat to Osaka. 2 archers head toward city A to put pressure on Akkad.

(I) Americans building Oracle. Barb dies on warrior protecting our worker.

1500BC: Too bad we're at war with the Babs. On regular deity, I'd make peace
now for 40g, trade Math for Poly, sell Poly around, and finish up by buying
that Bab worker in their capital.

Founded Satsuma on city dot A.

(I) Mongols (who no one has contact with) finished the Colossus. Bab
bowman enters Akkad after leaving last turn.

1475BC: Sending archers to Satsuma. Now Babs want 120g for peace, they
must be more confident for some reason. Boy, our workers are slow. Maybe
that's because we have ONE native worker and 2 bought workers.

(I) Chinese are building Oracle. Babs complete Oracle. Babs killed our
archer in Mts between Satsuma and Akkad. They also lost a bowman attacking
2nd archer in those Mts. Koreans building Pyramids.

1450BC:

Korea has Map Making
Babs have Map Making and Poly
China has Map Making and Poly

I give 156g and 8gpt to China for Poly
I sell Poly to Egypt for 109g
I sell Poly, WM, 99g to Korea for WM and Map Making
Pass around WM for 70g and all WMs (except Bab)

Net result is 236g for Poly and Map Making and all WMs

Babs want 80g for peace on the peace check.

Settler and spear heading city spot D, on top of horses.
Sending archers to Satsuma in Akkad battle.

(I) Bab bowman move near Satsuma. China building Great Lighthouse.

1425BC: Move 2 archers into Satsuma. Move settler and spear into city
spot D. Russia, China, and Korea showed up with Code of Laws. Egypt is
behind Map Making, everyone else is equal to us. Buy Russian worker
for WM, 2gpt and 82g. Sounds expensive but 2gpt is just 2 roads built,
and we're in dire need of workers. Also, better to spend gold than
have to refuse tribute. Change Edo from barracks to harbor. This will
let us trade with all civs except Mongols and help Edo grow. Its shield
production is pretty low for troops, although that will improve with
more terrain improvements and citizens.

(I) Korea building Great Lighthouse. Babs stick a stack of 3 bowman
outside of Satsuma and 1 more showing behind Akkad. I know there's
at least 2 more in Akkad besides the showing spear.

1400BC: Sell WM around for 5g. Attack stack of 3 bowman because that's
as good as it gets for our archers. Elite archers attacks vet bowman
and wins with 2hp left. Vet archer attack reg bowman and wins with 3hp
left and goes elite. Leave last bowman because I can't cover adequately.
Now "close to a deal" for peace with Babs.

Osaka building a archer and finally finishing temple.
Kagoshima found a spot D and starts on harbor.
Tokyo whips temple
Sell WM around again for 4g.

(I) Lost warrior to bowman at Satsuma. Too bad because my other spear
was just one move away from guarding Satsuma.

1375BC: New archer from Kyoto to Osaka. Osaka warrior to Satsuma. Worker
finishes road to Satsuma and works on hooking up horses near Osaka. We
need horses to stop the covering problems in attacking bowman in open.
Sell Wm for 4g.

(I) Babs start moving toward Osaka because Satsuma must be judged too tough.

1350BC:

Russia is up Code of Laws, 119g
America is even, 9g
Korea is up Code of Laws, 226g
Egypt is even, 1g
Bab is even, 82g
China is up Code of Laws, 255g

We sell WM around for 4g. We have one exploring warrior who is heading for
a large southern continent connected to our continent. He should continue
to explore and update our WM so we can sell it.

I move another archer to Satsuma. Next leader can decide whether to assault
Akkad, or move some back to Osaka. Move spear to N of Kyoto for either defence
of Mts around Osaka or to escort new settler being trained.

Comments:

We need move 2 units to take out Babs without having to worry about covering.

Worker and harbor at Edo should finish at same time to allow trading. All civs
we know about are connected by coastal tiles.

Was close to finishing Bab war (and would have stopped it under regular Deity)
but we're still at war.

Our bought workers are SLOW

Did not have any tribute demands while playing.

Sold WM around each turn after initial trade. Can make 4-5g per turn.

After horses, out ONE native worker should probably hook up iron.

Satsuma temple can be whipped in 4 turns.

Save Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-1350bc.zip)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-1350bc.jpg

A group of Japanese army vets were sitting around the local watering hole shooting the breeeze.

"Why the last leader decided to train horses before mining iron, I'll never know. What we need
are some big old two-handed swords to put the fear of the Meiji into the Babs. They'll
probably run at the very sight and give us a city or two."

"I know, first our last leader mumbled something about logistics to Satsuma and then something
about combined arms fighting with horses, spears, and catapults. Maybe it'll work and maybe it
won't. All I know is that my bow hasn't failed me yet and I hear that swords are better still.
What is all this gibberish about logistics, attrition rates, and combined arms fighting anyway?"

Their seargent, who has been around the block a time or two, decides maybe his men should hear
something, in case any of them get promoted to higher command. "Well boys, logistics is how fast
you can get your troops and equipment to the battle front. It's whoever gets there quickest
with the most that generally wins, regardless of using archers or swords."

"Now attrition rates are how many Babs are killed compared to how many heroic Japanese are killed.
As a famous general once said, your job isn't to die for your country, it's to get the Bab to
die for his country. I have to hand it to the Babs, they have tough bowman. What we need is
an edge in attack, and our spears and archers, as proud as I am of them, don't quite do it."

"Well seargent, that's what I've been saying. What we need are some huge iron-pumping swordsmen
to let the Babs know what's what."

"That's one way, but let's look at what spears, horses, and cats give you. Spears are your
defence for cities, mountains tops, and other strategic points. Horses give a fast attacking
force that can concentrate on any point quickly and retreat if needed. Cats can fire when
the Babs move next to you and again when they attack. The point is, there's alot of
flexibility and choices and generals like that."

This is an interesting game and it looks like you have an open slot. I will join in if nobody else shows up by the 5th player turn.

That's Charis' call. Speaking of Charis, you're up, dude! It's been 36 hours...the hordes are awaiting knowledge of the future of Japan and are getting restless.

Arathorn

:eek: Oops, but 'Charis' doesn't come in alphabetical order after 'cpp' !

:lol:

Got it, pardon the delay. Jaxom that sounds good - glad to have you on board. You're on deck after me. We'll keep Urugharakh fresh for a later game, he was on the border of too much and burnout. (If anyone is wondering about the (P)OW game, that will start after Feb 3, so we have a bit of staggering in the starts)

cpp good turn, and a nice discussion between the seargeant and his men :D

Thanks,
Charis

Special thanks to Jaxom for taking over from me. I really don't feel like playing Civ3 now.

To the rest: In case you are interested, I can post a short - well probably not so short - summary of my AW game. I intended in some time ago, but was not sure where to place it. I can do it in the RBE section or in the RBCiv Forum or open a new thread, whatever you prefer and of course only in case there is enough interest in the community. Best place would be probably at the start of the upcoming deity always war SG.

A fine job to cpp in settling, fighting, and trading! :goodjob:

State of the Nation: We're at war with the arrogant Babylons. Cpp sought to found 'A',
seal borders, attack Akkad, hook up horses, get map. Most of these were accomplished,
but the Babylonian war drags on. We would like peace, and to buy Code of Laws and sell
it to them, America and Egypt. Interesting choice for us - move to assault Akkad or
move back to Osaka. As cpp noted, horses would be a nice addition.

[0] 1350BC - Tokyo whips its barracks. Kagoshima switches to temple, to be whipped.
Kyoto adjusted to get settler in 2 instead of 3 turns. I see the elite archers
in Satsuma facing the bowman and Meijichari's mouth waters! He attacks, and wins.
Then vs just a spearman, our mountain archer attacks the city of Akkad. He wins
and promotes, but one more spear left (at least). Hammy will now take peace for
free but won't give anything. That's not good enough for Meijichari, who vows
more pain for the Babylons.

The Meiji feels aggressive. Kagoshima's spear moves up to the barbarian. And the
almost healed archer moves up out of Satsuma. We want to get the city before they
can reinforce it.

[1] 1325BC - Tokyo starts a spear. The mountain archer attacks the city and kills a
spear. Shoot, another one. Let's get the walking reinforcements on the way in.
The elite archer shoots at the bowman and... loses. The other archer kills him,
leaving a warrior. Our other archer moves to cover and to get next to Akkad.
Finally the barb camp is cleared, for 25g. A warrior from Osaka moves east in
case we need more beef.

Map is sold around, and tech situation is as it has been. Catherine is gracious??
Have we pleasured her in some way?! Hammy will now pay 20g for tribute.
"NOT good enough!!" screams the defiant one!

(IBT) The spear who moved up to cover the archers is slain by a bowman out of Akkad,
but their warrior dies promoting our archer. The Russians start the Pyramids, and
on that very turn, Thebes completes it. :lol: Koreans switch over to Lighthouse.

[2] 1300BC - Osaka starts a spear (and thinks someone has to do a worker soon)
The specific tactics are a tough call, with our archers hurt, and a 1hp bowman
suspected under the spear. Our mountain archer has just one target and goes first.
A tense battle sees him redline, then defeat the spear! Now that 1hp bowman is
showing!! A bold move aimed at pain maximization is chosen next. Our vet spear
is the one to try to finish him. One swing, boom, we're promoted to elite and the
city is autorazed (it would have been nice to be able to capture it). Now our
rather hurt archers can back up and heal.

Our settler is up, and has three choices. Eastern iron hill (B), to the west in
the Jungle (C), or up just PAST where Akkad was, on the inland lake, catching
fish, and if we win culture, the wheat at Ashur. That's my top choice until
I look at the culture. Babs are rockin'. Then the Meiji figures that anyone else
who settles that area again will lose their city to us, saving us a settler :P

He decides to "fill in" our backspace, and use wars when people challenge us to
expand into their borders. Plus 'A' is much easier to defend than 'Akkad' area.

Map sold around, and Cathy is now annoyed?? Was it my comment on her pleasure?!
Peace now or let the bowmen attack an elite spear. Come get some Hammy!!

(IBT) They do NOT attack, but shift toward Osaka, out of range of my attacks now.
Bwaaack-bwaaack-bagggaaaak!! cluck the cowardly arrow slingers.

[3] 1275BC - The new temple's expansion at Tokyo puts HUGE pressure on Chengdu of
China! They only have *six* of their own tiles under control. That's like 15
Japanese foreign national(ists) subverting the city! Our horse is connected, and
Osaka swaps to horse. Next connection, iron.

China and Korea now have Philosophy (and COL), while Russia and America only have COL
and Egypt has neither and lacks Map Making. Hrmm... the Babs have BOTH new techs,
meaning they were the ones to research Philosophy. "Philosophy of getting your butt
kicked when you pick on the wrong civ!" :hammer:

He will give Philosophy OR CoL, 'almost' both. How almost? 60g.

[4] 1250BC - As more bowmen move into view, and with no good attacks in sight,
it's a good time for peace, as we can broker Philo. We let Hammy live, giving us
tribute worthy of Japan's honor. He'll offer either Uruk or Lagash, but not
both. No thanks, undefensible and fully corrupt. We'll take TECH baby!
Philosophy and WM+1g (all he has). Hrmm? He'll toss in Uruk as a complete freebie?
Well if you INSIST, ok! (Note later - if an alarm is going off, you're right)
I just hope that dinky city doesn't lead us to another war! (But with horses and soon
Iron online, we fear no one!) At least now we have a free scientist.

Hrmm... Abe and Cathy seem really close to Philo, not offering much at all.
Abe gives us the better price, and we pay 4gpt+13g with Philosophy for Code of Laws.
We can go after Republic next if we so choose. Looking over the tech situation,
and the *empty* city of Uruk, I fear there will surely be a tribute demand before
long. And them capturing Uruk will make it that much harder to bring them to 'pay'
for peace. I note we have no embassies. Let's form some cheap ones. China and
Russia qualify. China has iron, a temple, working on settler, 2 lux, 11spt, 2 spears.
Moscow working on temple, has horses, 3 spears, 7spt. (I remember JUST in time,
NO ROP! :nono: We don't want spies in our capitals!)

Looking at the map - is China going to take all that subcontinent to themselves?
Satsuma's temple is whipped.

[5] 1225 BC - Settler done, Kyoto slips a temple into the queue. Edo's harbor is done,
we start a temple then galley. Satsuma starts a worker. The new settler heads to
the jungle near Japan.

[6] 1200 BC - China now has construction. So does Egypt, and Korea (who has several hundred
less gold)

[7] 1175 BC - Pisces Hill Station is founded on the coastal hill next to iron. (This gives
the maybe-we-should Forbidden Palace msg midturn)

[8] 1150 BC - Kagoshima's temple is whipped. Nagoya is founded in the jungle,
pressuring Nanking.

Hey, remember on the dot map those blue squares pointed out as points where the
AI would like walk through? Hammy's bow does just that. We lightly remind him this
is the sovereign territory of mighty Japan and that he must leave. He shoots an
arrow at our envoy. He does not know the envoy is a follower of Bushido. He dives
and rolls, nocks and arrow, and himself shoots back, slaying the bowman!

Babylon declares war! Come get some!!! :hammer:
(I'm glad Jaxom has joined, he's now in the all-too-familiar position of following
Charis who hair-triggered a war!)

The spear in Pisces Hill leaves his post, much like a goalie in hockey. Reg warriors
do a shuffle to cover it and Kagoshima. Vet warriors are in Kyoto and Tokyo ready
for upgrades in 5 or less turns when Iron hooked up. (Hmm, we need cash for that)

(IBT) Problem. Uruk is toast. A bowman moves toward it. I plan to *give* it away to
whoever has not given us guff (and where it will be uselessly corrupt) before
the Babs can capture it. For now, it's a nice distraction to pull his troops AWAY :lol:

[9] 1125 BC - Kyoto finishes temple, starts a spear, but can be swapped.
WM sold around, no change in techs.

(IBT) Lol, THREE Bab units converge next to our undefended ghost town, Uruk.

[10] 1100 BC - Osaka finishes our first horseman.
Charismeiji ponders his nation's laws on cities and abandonment and gifting, and finds
that... he has made a big mistake! :eek: The charter of his government prohibits
accepting of cities in tribute. :blush: Fortunately the city has not grown or
built anything. Now the people are set free, to wander the countryside yet again,
free from Babylonian despotism, and free from the meddling of Charismeiji into
affairs he has no business meddling in!

The scandal rocks the Japanese seat of government, and Charismeiji is tossed out
on his ear. The people demand a new leader, NOW!
The ex-Meiji apologizes, hides his face, and backs down. :ack:

To our next leader, Jaxomeiji,
- There's a horse and archer unmoved and fortified in/near Osaka
- Maps were sold around this turn, no new techs
- Good luck restoring the confidence of the people in their government
- The Kyoto and/or Edo tiles may need some adjustment, currently set for spear next turn
- Pisces food is too slow to whip temple when we want, might kick out a warrior first
- Note Babylon has no horses, but one nearby near Babylon. If we can keep denying that
it would be good. They have iron but not hooked up, at Ellipi.

Save File 1100BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Japan-1100BC.zip)

Roster: (10 turns each)
Arathorn << on deck
Architect
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom << up

Charismeiji, from exile

PS I think I may have inadvertently not issued a get out order to the Bab troops on the turn peace was declared. Thinking about it later, that would be unnecessarily silly. They hadn't gotten to move yet, and when they did, took immediate steps out of our land. It's not against the spirit of the law to let them leave by a direct route. If they linger or 'cut across' our territory instead of getting out, a 'get out!' warning would however be required)

(PPS to Urugharakh - I would love to hear about the AW game. In the RBE discussion section would work just fine. So would RBCiv forum. If a new thread it would have to be in the "Stories and Tales" section, or Chieftess will shift it there ;) The RBE discussion one seems best as it contains other discussion of AW topics)

Charis: Thanks for your kind comments on the sergeant discussion and on my turn. Awesome battle for Akkad, sounds like a real nail biter. I think you are slightly more aggressive on combat than I tend to be.

I thought hard about taking the 5hp elite archer from Satsuma and attacking that Bab bowman on grass next to Satsuma. I decided it was a little too risky because if they defeated the covering spear, they would easily get the elite archer also.

However, to satisfy my curiosity, I tried that attack after saving the game and posting my turn. The elite archer won and produced a GL Tojo! I'm still kicking myself for not doing that as a last attack, and hoping that you would try that attack yourself as the first thing on the pre-turn. Que sera, sera.

Jaxomeiji answers the call for duty.

Jaxomeiji ponders about Meijichari reign. Ah, so we can accept a city in tribute as long as we abandon it on the same turn? In that case, Jaxomeiji sets aside a special budget for a "cleanup" squad. :p Pisces Hill switches to a warrior to train the first member of the squad. Jaxomeiji notices the lack of workers and makes plan to improve the situation.


1075 BC Kyoto's new spearman is sent to Osaka and another one begins training.

"Hey you the worker, build a road there. What did you say? Salamazi! A foreigner! Salamazi, who brought this spy here? Arrest this worker and take him to the capitol, pronto!"

IT: Babylon settles a village by the horse, we will have to destroy this ugly sight. 3 bowman appear near Osaka.

1050 BC Our scout enters a hut and finds a skilled warrior.

IT: China begins the Great Library.

1025 BC 2 spies are sent to China to acquire contact with the Mongol. Genghis is backward, I show him polytheism to get his 28 golds and world map. The new world map is traded around for 80 golds. A couple of warriors are equipped with shiny new swords. Kyoto finishes a spearman and trains a real worker.

IT: The bowmen move toward Tokyo.

1000 BC Satsuma completes a good Japanese worker and trains another one. Tokyo completes a spearman and trains a horseman. Korea has no horses and they want some. They offer 160 golds and Literature to gain access to our horses. China also want some of our horses but I prefer they have none, so I make the deal with Wang Kon and 3 more warriors receive their new swords. I set research to Republic at minimum. An elite archer takes out a regular bowman near Tokyo, taking 2 damage.

"Sir! We have found another spy in our workers, he is from China."
"Salamazi! Send him to the American, pronto!"
"But Sir, we paid good money to bring him over here."
"I don't care, those foreigners are slackers on the job and they are all spies! Salamazi! If you find any more, just ship them to America!"

IT: 2 bowmen impales themselves on the new spearman in Tokyo, promoting him to elite. Korea completes the Great Lighthouse.

975 BC Osaka completes a spearman and trains a horseman. Hammurabi is ready to talk, he wants a worker? Salamazi! Get lost! This is a good Japanese worker! Sensei, send our troops to raze Kish, pronto! A regular swordsman dies to a fortified bowman near Tokyo but the next swordsman wins and promotes to veteran.

IT: 4 bowmen run away in fear and take cover in nearby Kish, Salamazi! Come out and fight, pronto!

950 BC An archer, the hero of Osaka, shoots at a spear near Osaka and Salamazi! We get the Great Library! :beer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_bc0850_tojo1.jpg

IT: Our brave swordsman in the open kills 2 bowmen attacking from Kish and almost kills the 3rd one before falling, he shall be avenged pronto!

925 BC The Great Library of Satsuma is now open. China cascades to the Great Wall and completes it. Pisces Hill completes the first Cleaner and begins a temple.

IT: Babylon wants to talk peace, but have only 25 golds to offer, Salamazi! come and get us! Hammurabi sends 3 bowmen on the heroes of Kish but they all bite the dust, promoting a spearman to elite. :jump:

900 BC Construction came out of the GL, Kyoto completes a settler and begins a spearman. Troops walk on Eridu. Our scout dispatch a barbarian camp under the nose of a Chinese archer. :)

IT: A defending sword dispatch a bowmen near Eridu

875 BC The temple of Nagoya is pop-rushed. A horseman is pop-rushed in Tokyo.

IT: Hammurabi sent a settler pair to die at the same spot Kish was.

850 BC Monarchy shows up, troops are healing, Hammurabi would give Elipi for peace, his iron city.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_bc0850_map.jpg

There is a settler on the way to claim the area near the horse, I suggest placing the city on the green dot or directly on the horse. It would be best to raze Eridu before making peace, there is a cleaner ready in Pisces Hill if you take any cities for peace. :) China is becoming quite the monster, we should go break their cities as soon as we have Samurai.

On this note, Jaxomeiji retires mumbling something about the darn lazy foreigners.

Here is the save at the end of 850 BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_meiji_bc0850.zip)

Well that certainly was a fine turn! :hammer:

After cpp's curiousity check, it was clear we deserved Tojo - I'm glad he put on an appearance here, and was a man dedicated to science. Although, wow, we're doing well with tech if all that pops out is construction!

Things are going better than expected. That speaks well of the preparation of our leaders for war, as we have balanced culture (many temples), military and barracks, and expansion (with a solid and nicely shaped core). The problem comes when a strong foe makes a demand at an awkward time and declares war, and we're not allowed to take peace until we get something for it. That's the time of thing that could turn a solid game into a total loss in fairly short order, so don't get overconfident!! Picture a dogpile against us, and remember we can't get allies!

Strategic thought... if for some reason we do end up at constant war with Babylon, we should probably continue to deny iron and horses, but raze-resettle from *right to left*, putting our new cities against the east coast and growing out from there - to avoid having a half-dozen foes smell blood and trample across our lands with large SOD's to reach Babylon's eastern-most holdings. Looking at the map, a city we settle on the site of the ruins of Babylon itself would make for a nice FP :P

Regarding foreign workers, there was a prohibition against them in the first draft, but that was removed in the rules posted in the start of this thread. So at this point, the expulsion of "lazy workers" is not required, but certainly your actions fit your leader quite well :P Charismeiji certainly can't bark at anyone for rules confusion :lol: In fact, sheeeesh, thank goodness Akkad was autorazed. We can't capture foreign towns. Now that's going to mean many lazy workers later on. If you remember the French Lambs among Wolves epic, you see what impact that had, even for an industrious civ.

I suppose sending lazy workers to America, an industrious civ, will certainly help them to become better workers :P

There are two items then I would like feedback from the other players...

- Implement a no lazy worker cuz they're spies rule?
- Would you prefer to be able to take and immediately abandon cities in tribute?

With razing only, no capture, the first one would be somewhat painful. (Not to mention, in a recent game I had over 500 captured workers from razing every city on the planet. Imagine Abe with 500 lazy-but-industrious workers :P )

As far as tribute, I think we would 'prefer' to take gold or tech first, but if the other civ can't pay, surely this is an appropriate form of punishment for giving us guff (this was what happened with Uruk, I didn't want the city, but after they paid all they could in tech and cash, they would still give it up)

I'm fine with keeping things as they are, or by popular demand making either of these adjustments now that you have a feel for the game. It's part which fits the theme best, and how much pain do you want? :P

Arathorn << UP
Architect << on deck
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom

PS Ok, maybe it's too early in the morning, but in what sense is a warrior a 'cleaner' and would he actually do anything? :crazyeye:

PPS@Jaxom If you were clear on the rules (no foreign nationals added to the city, not that we couldn't use them) but were doing some national-self-flagellation to atone for the era of Charismeiji that's fine, but try to mention such things in a 'P.S.' at least :P

Rules

I'm fine with having slave (foreign) workers around, I even bought one on my turn. But they should never be added to one of our cities. However, if others feel that we should only have native workers, that's fine with me.

On the cities, I'm slightly against demanding cities in tribute, even with abandoning them later that turn. This keeps the general principal of never having a city with a foreigner in it, even for a partial turn.

Strategy

I notice we're doing min research into Republic, costing 3gpt. This is probably not needed since we have the GL.

Also, are we going to let China have the whole southern continent? My feeling is that we should end the war with the Babs (they're ready for peace) and direct our energy at containing China. At least to get a base on the southern continent before they claim the whole thing. We are actually about even with China in culture so we should be able to compete with them down there.

Here is Japan at 850BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-850bc.jpg

If we're razing every city, and we're not allowing foreign nationals in our cities (good moves, themewise, as far as I'm concerned), I think we have to let those foreignors do something. Slaving away at shovels outside of cities is about all they're good for, and I think we should be allowed to let them keep doing that as long as they like. :)

As far as cities go, I'm completely neutral, but I would like some kind of consensus/decision before I play tonight.... I guess I have an extremely weak vote for allowing cities as tribute, if they have nothing else to give...and abandoning them, under the "Even nationalists are willing to supervise the dismantling on an enemy city" precept.

Boy, China looks like a 500-pound gorilla in the making. Samurai vs. riders? Could ... be ... exciting.

It looks, though, like our expansion (8 cities) is pretty close to even with everyone BUT China. That's good.

Arathorn

I thought cities gained in peace deals came full of native citizens or is that flipped cities? Can't keep it straight...

If peace deal cities are fully native then IMO, then doesn't that count as razing one of our cities which triggers the eliminate that civ rule?

Architect: You're right, I just tried it out and cities taken in tribute for peace have their citizens converted to your nationality.

So I have to retract my earlier position and say that we should be able to take cities in tribute and even keep them since they are now Japanese citizens. This can be the "naturalized citizen" rule. But, no naturalized citizen can be president of our republic or democracy :) .

Also I just realized we have Monarchy and are religious so we can say goodbye to Despotism. I think Tokyo has been whipped 2 times now, once for its temple and once for its barracks so be careful of that. Since we're low on pop anyway, it might be more efficient to rush improvements by gold rather than pop anyway from now on.

Testing testing one two one two

Edit: Sorry about this, I had trouble posting and I tried a smaller message.

@Cpp1: Monarchy will cost us more money than despotism for very little gain in growth and shields per turn. We will get the republic in no more than 34 turns, I think we better stick to Despotism until we have the Republic. Also, I prefer to make my own luck than to depend on the AI, hence the 10% research on Republic. This way we know for certain when we will have the Republic. I would prefer a single scientist but every city we have make good use of their population and all are contributing to the war effort.

@Charis: I am very clear on the rule and I understand we can have foreign workers. I had a few reasons to get rid of them. First, it fits the theme very well and no matter what is decided, be warned that Jaxommeiji will be quite rude to foreign spies. :) On the other hand, Jaxomeiji has less problems with captured workers as they are less likely to be spies. In PTW, there are many ways to use workers and I'll be using foreigners whenever I feel the need for an outpost or a radar tower. Now America was not my favourite choice for a taker but it was a Chinese worker and China was the only other civ that could pay for it. For some reason, civs from the other continent didn't give me the option to offer the worker, it's the first time I notice that.

Another reason was the opportunity to get contact with the Mongol, whom were not known by everybody. I know Korea would have put us in contact with Mongolia eventually, but the sooner you get contact, the more trading opportunities you get.

Finally, I never ever buy workers from the AI, the game is easy enough as it is. A 100 golds is still too low a price for a worker at the early stage of the game, they are worth way more than that. With the theme of this SG, it felt natural to give them back. However, I gave a Russian and Babylonian worker to China and a Chinese worker to America. Let them handle the spies! ;)

About taking a city as a tribute I have mixed feelings. Either way will be fine, with a slight preference for accepting only cities on our border. My reference to this in my report was mostly a tought Jaxomeiji had about Meijicharis' action. However, if we do accept cities in peace talks to abandon them, we will need "cleaners" to, hmm, dispose of the population.
:die:

However, if the population is indeed Japanese, then we don't need cleaners, but Jaxomeiji distrusts these "pseudo-nationals". :P

Strategy wise, so what if China gets all of the southern continent, as long as we get all of Babylon. Look at the small border we would have with China once we own Babylonia. We should press on Babylon, their Golden Age is over and as long as they don't have iron, we have an advantage on them. If i remember correctly, there were no ressources worth taking now in that sub-continent, settling there only to deny China would give us defensive problems and those cities would be hopelessly corrupt. A FP in Babylon and we will have a very strong core, more than enough to get any win but domination.

@Jaxom - the giving back of workers was a fun and in-character twist :P I just wanted to make sure about the rule, and to point out that if any one player is going to consistently boot all foreign workers that we would either want to make that a rule or in any case make sure everyone was heading in the same direction. (And regarding cleaners... oh THAT kind of cleaner!)

As was stated, a country in tribute becomes 'native' to you. That's what the *game* mechanics say. Theme-wise, Uruk or similar cities have zero to do with the great nation of Japan, and to think foreigners across the planet would be seen by the nationalistic people as normal citizens is crazy talk :P

Let me summarize feedback so far...
* City for tribute?
- Mixed feelings, slight preference for accepting only those on our border
- If they are 'our' citizens we can't in good faith abandon them
- They're ok as 'naturalized citizens', they just can't be president :P
- No disagreement on no adding them to our cities
- Neutral, slight preference for 'ok' as we 'supervise the dismantling of an enemy war machine'
- Slightly against (but that comment may have been before catching that they become naturalized)
- If a civ ends up dying but with a one tile island city, we're going to kick ourselves

I want to keep the theme but not tie our hands, so let me state it like this...

"Cities offered as a concession for peace are an unusual case, and the immigration officials led by the current leader must decide their fate according to the good of the nation, but their status must be declared at the time of the transfer. A city that is declared guilty of war crimes must be immediately dismantled (improvements sold, city abandoned), as a lesson to the opposing civ. A city that yearns to be under control (often with borders connecting to us) may be granted statehood, which may not be revoked."

* Workers, keep, use?
- Sending them back was strategic for a good trade, and to avoid 'early purchase' of workers as semi-exploitative
- Using forced labor with those captured from civs were at war with makes total sense (in fact, if nothing else, make sure you use them and don't let them escape while at war with that civ)

Let's try this:

"Foreign nationals are viewed with suspicion, and may never be added into our cities. They should not be bought, but if captured during war should be kept as prisoners of war and put to use in labor camps. The leader at the time of the end of the war may decide whether they should be deported to a location where someone will pay their way, or kept as unskilled labor"

These two rules are longer but basically both boil down to "keep the theme of Nationalists and do what you think is best" :D

With regard to China
- Can we let China take that whole southern continent?
- Who cares as long as we get all of Babylon!?
- Samurai vs Riders, yum!

I like the idea very much of pressing on vs Babylon, a GA-less, iron-less, horse-less, gassed foe which makes an ideal FP location *AND* a contiguous ocean-bounded empire for us!! If we take a few cities or a 'chunk' of China it will be undefendable and surely plastered with tresspassers. Plus... will China be smart enough to put an FP down south? If not it will an ultracorrupt mess. It's nice that the AI's will be fighting over junk land out of the path of US!

While it's not a rule that we can't have wars of aggression, we really don't see it as our purpose to interfere in the affairs of others. (It's easy enough to goad them though :P ) We certainly don't allow them to interfere in ours! If China doesn't declare war on us, my own preference would be to continue war with Babylon while we are still winning it, while it makes sense to do so, and while we have no more pressing matter to deal with.

With regard to Govt
It all comes down to how we want to rush over the next 10-34 turns. The cost will be about equal, although I think as a relig civ there would be a slight advantage to Monarchy. If we have more poprushing to do, hang tight til Republic. If not, Monarchy is good for now.

Thanks for the feedback, this is good discussion, and I hope the results of 'put yourself in their shoes and do what they would see as best for the proud nation' works for you. (Jaxom certainly has the role playing thing down :cool: ) Just remember to be defiant!

Charis

P.S. I'll toss out one more semi-random thought, currently disallowed in this game. In my "no guff" game, if a civ acknowledged our greatness and power by offering to *pay* for an alliance, AND if it was in my country's own best interest, I would take such an alliance, and when they would no longer pay, or when I no longer wanted it, break the alliance. In this situation only I chose not to demand that the 'ally' get out while he was heading to fight our common foe. That's not on the table here, but I wanted to mention it as an alternate rule that fits well with an "intelligent self-serving nationalist" as opposed to a "rabid defiant nationalist" :P

Alright. I'll press the war with Babylon, until Tokyo flips to China, which will be enough incentive for me to declare war on Mao, in our own best interests.

Hopefully, we can push north along the east coast to discourage traipsers across our land.

As far as govt. goes, I'll take a close look at the situation and decide, probably primarily based on troop count.

Arathorn

About Monarchy.

I have to disagree with Charis about monarchy at this point. Look at the number of tiles that would produce more under monarchy, I count one, maybe two. We have 4 workers, 5 next turn, so if all workers mine a hill 6 tiles will benefit from monarchy, in 12 turns. Monarchy doesn't improve commerce, so we will still make only 10gpt above our expenses. Oh wait, we will loose 16 free support, which will most likely eat up all of our gpt. Now we might expect to obtain money from the AI but what will we sell them? We are not researching, we will not broker until the GL expires and have no extra luxury to trade. China would pay well for our horses but it might be better to deny them horses as long as possible. So we will not gain much money from the AI in the next 30 turns and would not be able to cash-rush anyway. So I am against monarchy on the "technical" viewpoint. If someone proclaims himself King in a fun role-playing way, I will applaud him even if Jaxomeiji disapprouve. :)

About foreign workers.

My actions were not meant to complicate the rules. It felt right to do them so I did. I can think of a few role-playing ways to acquire foreign workers and "mark" them so that Jaxomeiji has to tolerate them. However, if the role-playing stuff bother too many players, I'll just follow the rules as stated.

Samurai VS Riders, yum yum! I hope the AIs get to chivalry before education!

P.S.: It is very likely that either China or Korea will research the Republic in the next 15 turns and both have enough cash to buy it from the other, so I don't think it will take 34 turns to get the Republic. The question will be, will we have enough markplaces to make it worth the switch.

The Ara-Meiji came to power in 850 AD to a nation in the midst of war with Babylon. Most of the notes of the scribes of the time were lost, so only a reconstruction of events can be made.

A number of minor skirmishes with Babylon occurred early in the realm of the Ara-Meiji. Hammurabi's people also refounded Shuruppak on the ruins of an old city.

About 825 BC, the scribes in the Great Library found the secrets of the Republic, perhaps brought there from the Koreans and the Chinese. This prompted a revolt in 800 BC, leaving the people confused about a new process of "voting." A short period of anarchy ensued, during which time the world's best priests assured the people that all would be well, to trust in the spirit of their ancestors, and to vote as instructed. So, it came to pass that the Ara-Meiji family was elected to lead the Japanese Republic.

The sky started falling shortly thereafter....in 775 BC.....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/mao_demands.jpg

In 750 BC, then, peace was made with Babylon, getting their maps, all 12 gold they had available, and the city of Shuruppak, which was made fully Japanese by decree of the Ara-Meiji.

The war with China is not going particularly well. We razed Chengdu by Tokyo, killing two spears and an archer at the cost of one swordsman. Our SW city, Nagoya, was caught protected by a single spearman and fell to ~15 Chinese swordsmen in 670 BC.

670 BC was a problem for another reason. After years of wandering our homeland, a Babylonian bowman finally refused to leave. An emissary to Babylon was dispatched, with firm orders to no longer accept vague promises from Hammurabi about ordering his units out. He had to move them immediately or go to war. That emissary never returned, but Shuruppak is now surrounded by Babylonian swordsmen (yes, they have iron).

650 BC was not even complete, when the people of Japan, feeling their power, deposed the Ara-Meiji family, with a special election. The Ara-Meiji were ousted, with many units still unmoved.

The next leader finds the keys of power (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-650ad.zip) along with some notes.

"Oh, boy, this is getting ugly."
"Probably the best we can do is hold the Edo, Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka, Satsuma line."
"Babylon will almost assuredly raze Shuruppak soon, meaning we will have to eliminate them at some point."
"I wonder if moving that archer by Chengdu had anything to do with the tribute demand from Mao. No time to find out now."
"Or maybe it was anarchy."
"With a few more turns of growth, Kyoto can hit 15 spt, which means a sword/horse every other turn, which we will need."
"What does SNAFUBAR mean?"
"Maybe staying in despotism would've been better, as losing cities will surely raise war weariness quickly."
"Hmm...I don't think we've checked happiness in 650 yet...maybe that's why we were deposed early."
"I don't want to die."
"I expect a couple swords on the hill by Nagoya soon and another ~10 headed for Edo/Kyoto in the next 2-3 turns."
"Please don't attack the Chinese archer on a hill across a river. PLEASE!"
"It was kinda freaky how our trade routes to the western continent would come and go every turn."
"Boy, those barbs in the south knew how to fight..."
"Good luck -- cause you are gonna need it."

Arathorn

:eek:

Wow! That was just about as bad as things could possibly have gotten! Tis the nature of the variant, not anything bad on Arathorn's part. Sluggish bowmen and arrogant Mao. Why on earth does the AI get so bent out of shape when asked to leave anyway?? I hope it's not as simple (and as stupid) as

if (my_power > your_power) and (you_boot_me) then DeclareWar()

Things were just looking too good, weren't they? If Mao was a little calmer, they probably would be. Alas, this is going to be a snowball that may just bring us more pain than we've ever seen. As we lose cities and become more tribute-bait, we could end up at war with everyone (especially since no alliances). We can't pay for peace either, so there's no backing down, we'll need to actively counterattack. Then even if we bring them to peace, if say CHINA takes a detour and walks all over our land, we'll get booted back into war.

Just wanted to amplify the gravity of the situation :nuke:
Of course it's far from over. Right???

Arathorn
Architect << UP
cpp1 << on deck
Charis
Jaxom

Boy Architect, do you have your work cut out for you! Good luck!!
Charis

The Japanese world in 650BC. From Arathorn's notes, I'd say we're in deep dodo here. A couple of comments:

I wonder if our big treasury had something to do with the tribute request from the Chinese. Usually its nice to have a lot of gold stored up, but in this game I'm beginning to wonder.

Normally when being attacked on Deity you'd either hold out for 6-7 turns and sue for peace, or sign up allies to distract them. Here neither is possible because we can't pay anything for peace and we can't sign up allies (by our variant rules).

I think our best hope is that other civs realize that China is exposing its other end to them and they jump into the mix.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-650bc.jpg

I got it. I'm up in two games now so give me a few to get them both done. Hopefully tonight.

650BC(0) - Not much to change. I spend 32 gold to get a horseman from Kyoto next turn.

IT: Babs raze Shurappak to the ground. They must die now. We get currency from the GL.

630BC(1) - Shuffling troops around.

610BC(2) - We attack some units and manage to kill a bowman and an archer without losing anything but two horsemen goto 1 hp. I rush 2 swordsman this turn and we are down to 8 gold with 3 swordsman due next turn. China has 3 swordsman poised to enter our lands and babs have 4 troops - 2 bowman, 1 swordsman, and 1 spearman. I veto barracks in kagoshima for a spearman.

590BC(3) - We lose 3 swordsman attacking a single swordsman in the jungle. The chinese will talk to us but want something for peace so we press on.

IT: We lose a spearman and swordsman to the chinese.

570BC(4) - There are now 9 offensive units attacking from china and 10 from babylon. I attack with a swordsman into plains and lose to a bowman. I attack with an archer against a bowman in the plains and lose. I finally win one but damage our swordsman down to 1hp. 2 horseman lose against a bowman in the open field.

IT: Our war happiness disappears and kyoto goes into disorder.

550BC(5) - There is nothing to do at this point. My men have executed me for poor leadership.

With no way to make peace without concessions we will never get ahead of the game. Plus, my RNG luck isn't helping.

550BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-meiji-550bc.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5byebye.jpg

Perhaps this defiant nationalism works better when you are on an island?

Got it :confused:

I am guessing that Architect is handing it off after 5 turns. I'll play either 5 or 15 turns, depending on how things go, to even things up (assuming we last that long).

I haven't looked at the situation yet, but from the report and the screenshot, this looks like the worst situation I have ever seen in an SG game. We're in intensive care with the ventilator pumping away in this game.

:help:

cpp hopped in there quick. I saw the report and didn't want to subject anyone else to that torture, so I was going to do the captain with his ship thing. I should have posted here first but didn't think it would take more than a few minutes :P

You got da got, do what you can if anything, but Architect's assessment is correct, don't worry about the results.

Charis

I am reminded of playing Epic 12. Hey, you win some, and... :arrow:

:lol: ;)

The barron may be right. This could be too many hogtying vectors for a pangaea. Fewer neighbors might give you a better shot at avoiding early annihilation. This concept might be hard enough to manage on Emperor, even, on a Pangaea.


- Sirian

I kind of enjoy playing these type of situations where every move has to be carefully thought out,
and even then cities can be lost on a bad streak of luck.

I've looked at the situation and it's really bad. We have 2 warriors, 3 archers, 6 spear,
and 3 sword (total 14). And its not like the're all in one stack ready to fight together, they're
all scattered among our 7 cities. There are 11 bab troops and 14 Chinese troops attacking and
those are just the ones I can see.

I call all the generals together for a briefing.

All right men, I want to lay out our strategy. There are 3 operations we are going to undertake.

"First is Operation Gold. We are going to lay our hands on every gold piece in the known world,
except for the Babs and the Chinese, who won't donate anything. We need this gold to train troops.
Our diplomats our going to handle this end of things."

"Next is Operation Pillage." The generals wake up, this is something they can understand. Pillage
enemy fields and mines to weaken them. However some look puzzled, knowing we don't even have the
troops to defend our home cities. One asks, "Sire, which troops are going out to pillage, and
where do they pillage", thinking these troops will be lucky just to get to where they can pillage.
"It doesn't matter, just pick a troop that's not busy at the moment. As to where, after carefully
studying the map, I think the tile due N of Kyoto will do nicely."

A gasp echoes around the room. "But sire, that is pillaging our own tile." Yes it is, we are
going put 3 workers and a troop of something on the tile and pillage and re-road it every turn.
Some generals mutter about goverment work programs in the middle of a crisis, and maybe they
should just execute the current leader on the spot and get it over with.

After some time the room calms down and Operation River Bank is introduced. "Where ever the
enemy can attack across the river, we will put troops on our side of the river and fortify there.
There is to be no attacking of enemy troops unless we have a clear advantage, let them impale
themselves on our spears and swords." The generals smiled since this is the one Operation that
makes sense to them.

The President was last heard discussing Operation Wall with his aids, an initiative to get every
frontline city with either walls, or up to size 7 or higher.

Good Luck cpp1!

JMB

PS - could you explain why you want to pillage the tile to the N of Kyoto to me? (for luring enemy troops?)

Good luck, cpp1. I hope you can hold on for a while. Charis, I know you're the captain, but we're all on this ship. If it gets to you and you get through your turns, pass it on. I'll keep firing shots, too, as long as I can draw breath. NO SURRENDER! I say we play it out the bitterest end.

Arathorn

P.S. Pillaging to cut off iron so we can build a warrior/turn? ???

You got it Arathorn. Its kind of a gimmick, but by pillaging and re-roading each turn, we can build a warrior a turn in Kyoto and a warrior every 2 turns in Edo. They then require 40g to upgrade to swords, which is why we need every penny. That's more efficient than normal rushing.

This situation reminds me of the story of the king and a convicted thief on death row. The king, being very fond of his horse, says to the thief, "If you can make my horse talk in one year, I'll set you free, otherwise I'll execute you". The thief says "I accept your offer." Later, when asked whether he thought he could make the horse talk, he said "Of course not, but in a year many things can happen. I could die, the king could die, the horse could die, or the horse might even learn to talk."

It looks hopeless, but we will never surrender, and who knows, what might happen. I probably will post tomorrow morning because I want to move carefully.

The Lurkers are 100% behind you guys !

Sirian is reminded of Epic 12 , I am reminded of RBE2 and the many times that game was threatened and looked hopeless... ;)

HOLD ON STRONG !
:slay:

Summary:

This is probably the hairiest 5 turns I have ever played. After my
preturn, the Babs made a determined attack on Osaka and killed 2 spear.
We had only 1 sword left there, and he had only 1hp. If Osaka goes,
we lose our iron, our link to Satsuma (with the Great library), and
the game. So I would say this game was hanging by 1hp.

They also killed 1 archer and 1 sword in an across-the-river attack,
without losing anything. Altogether, thats 4 of 14 troops (28%) killed
on the first between turns action. That's not 28% of an attacking stack
or a cities defenders, that's 28% of our entire military gone in 2 AI
attacks in the first between turns action.

Lux is at 40% due to WW. I think it might be prudent to change into
Monarchy (I don't think Despotism will support Kyoto and Edo) when
you get a chance (hehe).

I have just made peace with the Babs (470BC). I regard this as a temporary
cease fire to build up our strength before we destroy them. They razed
one of our cities (Shurr???) so we have no choice. They should start
moving out of our territory (I hope!).

Militarily, we're at the edge of disaster. "Thin" doesn't begin to
describe our defences. The only reason we're still here is because
we have iron to upgrade, the GL for tech, and are scraping together
every cent we can beg, borrow, or steal for upgrades.

The Chinese are still coming hot and heavy for Edo. The sword down there
can be upgraded next turn. Be careful on attacks, we just don't have
many units to lose.

Operation Pillage turned out to be a bust. Early I had NO troops to pillage
with. Later the timing didn't work out and after Feudalism came along it
was too expensive. Better to have Kyoto and Edo build real troops and save
the money for upgrades of existing troops.

I would urge any leaders to found cities on hills where ever possible. The
combo of hills and walls is powerful.

Preturn 550BC:

I look at the diplo situation.

Russia: even tech, 2g, wants iron (no way), at war with America
America: -mono, 6g, can only pay 6g and WM for mono, at war with Russia.
Korea: even tech, 13g, wants horses (yeah!), can pay WM + 13g + 7gpt
Mongols: -Curr, -Constr, -Republic, 1g, can only pay 1g + WM
Egypt: -mono, 16g, will pay 16g + WM for mono
Bab: refuse to talk
China: even tech, 85g, doubtful on peace

I make the following dubious trades, most I wouldn't normally do but
we need every cent.

Mono to America for 6g + WM
WM to Russia for 2g + WM
Horses to Korea for WM + 7gpt + 13g
(not needed for samurai and we have an extra)
WM to Mongols for WM + 1g
WM to Egypt for WM + 5g
Mono to Egypt for 11g

That's it, everyone is cleaned out of gold except Babs and China.
We end up with 74g and 24gpt after boosting lux to 20% for Kyoto.

Settler in Tokyo moves out while the moving is good, going to Edo.
(Tokyo could fall next turn).

Switch from spear in 6 at Tokyo to walls in 1.
Switch from sword in 6 at Osaka to walls in 1.
Switch from barrack in 4 at Satsuma to walls in 1.

Move 1hp vet sword and 4hp elite archer into Osaka from iron Mt for healing + defense.

Move elite spear from Osaka onto iron Mt. If that iron is
taken we are dead.

Move 2 spear from Kyoto to Osaka. Have to hold the city for iron
and for the link to Satsuma where the Great Library is.

Move warrior from Kagoshima to Kyoto for upgrade next turn.
Move warrior from Pisces to Kagoshima for upgrade later.

Galley peeks into Nanking and Nagoya. Reg spear guarding both.
At least there's no vet swords in there coming my way.

Edo and Pisces are left unguarded this turn.

(I)

We lose 2 spear in Osaka. We also lose 1 sword and 1 archer
south of Kyoto in an across the river attack. Did not win a single
battle. Bad RNG luck.

China building Sun Tzu.
Tokyo, Osaka, and Satsuma build walls.
Pisces build sword.

530BC:

We're down to 10 troops now. 1 warrior, 1 archer, 4 spear, 4 sword.
Can you believe fighting the world superpower and another civ on Deity
with only 10 troops?

Now there is a 1hp vet sword guarding Osaka, alone, facing 4 swords and 3 bowman.

Upgrade a warrior in Kyoto.
Sword at Pisces moves toward Kyoto.
Warrior at Kagoshima moves into Kyoto.
Operation Pillage is on hold, no extra troop to pillage with!
Vet sword from Kyoto kills China sword south of Kyoto. The only battle won so far.
Settler moves next to Edo, will merge into Edo next turn.
Vet spear moves from iron Mt to Osaka, leaving just elite spear to guard Mt.
Elite spear moves from Satsuma to Osaka, leaving nothing at Satsuma.
Move elite archer from Tokyo towards Kyoto.

Sell WM around for 5g

I send 2 workers off to Pisces to start mining iron in case we lose iron Mt.
Galley peeks in again, still no vet swords at Nagoya or Nanking.

(I)

Kill 3 Babs at Osaka and it holds.
Kill 1 Chinese at Tokyo, but next one captures Tokyo.
We master feudalism.
Babs start Sun Tzu.
Bab spear pillages our horses near Osaka.

510BC:

Sell WM around for 1g
"Close to a deal" for peace with Babs
China is insulted by peace deal.

I merge settler into Edo, now size 7.
Upgrade 2 spear in Osaka to pikes.
Upgrade sword in Kyoto to MDI.

(I)

America and Russia signed a peace treaty.
China and Babs moved around but no attacks.
Edo builds pike.
Kyoto builds MDI.

490BC:

MM Kyoto and Edo so Kyoto is at 15spt and Edo at 10spt.
This gets a pike in 2 turns at Kyoto and 3 turns at Edo.

I send a pike and MDI from Osaka to Satsuma. Satsuma is currently
undefended and there's a spear and sword right next to it. My pike
and MDI wave at the Babs as they pass by on the road.

The spear on iron MT comes in for an upgrade, the pike at Osaka takes
up iron Mt duties. The northern army consists of 3 pikes and 1 MDI
and is responsible for irom Mt, Osaka, and Satsuma.

If I can get 12g more, I can upgrade the spear and a sword this turn.
Pass around the WM for 4g.
Sell Feudalism to Egypt for 15g + WM
I upgrade the spear at Osaka to a pike and an elite sword in Kyoto to MDI.

A reg MDI from Kyoto attacks the Bab spear that pillaged the horses and
barely wins with 1hp left.

(I)
No attacks by Babs or China.
Russia, Egypt, and Korea are building Sun Tzu.

470BC:

Our vet MDI from Satsuma attacked a Bab spear + sword stack and won with
no losses, promoting to elite.

I decide to move the workers from the forest so they won't be captured
by the archer across the river. They should move back ASAP and complete
a road there so troops can make it from Kyoto to Edo in one turn.

I check the rules on peace. The Babs have razed Shurr??? a city Arathorn
got, so can we make peace with them. I decide its OK, as long as we regard
it as a temporary cease fire, to build up strength to destroy the Babs.

I make peace with the Babs and we exchange WMs as part of the deal. I sell
his WM to America for 1g, that's all anyone will pay. Every cent counts.

Comments:

I sent workers to hook up the iron at Pisces as a backup source. There's
another worker at Satsuma doing general improvement.

There is a stack of workers near Edo trying to road a forest that will let
troops get from Kyoto to Edo in 1 turn. They were chased off last turn, but
try to get them back ASAP to complete that road.

The Chinese messed up my MM of Edo so it only produced 8 shields last turn.
I've got it back to 10spt but you never know where the Chinese are going next.
The MDI just outside of Kyoto is a reinforment for Edo. It can't make it all
the way to Edo in 1 turn, so I just moved it far enough, in case it have to go
back to Kyoto for some reason.

Our galley is doing nothing in particular. It's cruising along our southern coast
in case China tries an amphibious invasion.

Save File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-470bc.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-470bc.jpg

Well, while we might be on the very doorstep of death itself, that went MUCH better than expected. We still have iron and the Great Library -- **really** good job cpp!! :goodjob:

I'm glad the pillaging failed. Iron is our key. We need to inflict enough pain for China to give free peace, *period*. If we lose two warriors to one archer, he'll want more for peace, not less.

I'll do what I can here, but it's still dire. We're gonna be defiant as long as we draw breath!! The religious people of Japan are now praying for Chivalry and *Samurai*

'got it'
Charis

PS the 'going down with the ship' comment was based on how it looked from the screenshot and earlier comments. When I saw we had Feudalism, could yet build walls, and that there was a small chance Samurai could appear soon, I realized there might be an outside, very outside, chance here.

Charismeiji, back from exile, feels a personal pain at what he has done
to his people, and vows to bring victory against the dogs of China.
The thing that is MOST sad in his sight is the loss of Tokyo. They will
be avenged. On the plus side, Kyoto and Edo are full sized cities and well
defended. (Er... scratch that, Kyoto has a single warrior) Can he kill enough
units to bring pain to China?!

[0] 470 BC - At Osaka, work the mountains instead of horse for quicker pike.
Hmm, the units around Edo now are not their best. Let's cause some pain.
Elite archer vs sword... We redline, but....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Hirohito-470BC.jpg

HIROHITO!!!! Come to save us!!!
(btw, LOL, this is payback for me 'missing' Tojo earlier this game :lol: )

And right now we have just enough cities to make an army. Ack! A Samurai army
would win the day, but we won't have 3 spare Samurai for who knows how long.
Pike goes out to cover the archer. Pike from Osaka runs to Kyoto, Pike from
Satsuma runs to Osaka, where we will run back and trade with MDI next turn :P


(IBT) Their archer does not attack, but pillages. The other swords move SE towards
Edo.

[1] 450 BC - The Babs stepped up to the hill next to Tokyo, they're not going to
attack the Chinese there, are they?? World maps sold around.

Tough call on the leader. SunTzu would be extremely sweet, but if the city falls or
we lose the game, senseless. An army would be nice, albeit of limited value with the
units we could throw in there. Let's see what's coming at us- two archers and a
warrior immediately, then 3 archers and 2 swords, then 3 sword, archer, warr.
At or coming to Edo we have 1 sword, 1 MDI, 1 pike, 1 archer. One or two more pikes
could come from Kyoto. This round we need to attack the 1-def units before they
are covered. That precludes making an army just yet.

Two MDI's attack the weak defenders and win. Then sword vs the last archer, we
win and promote. Archer retreats to city, and two pikes cover the sword in forest.

That's all for now. China is now at 'doubt' level, not insulted! That's still not
'close', in fact over 200g worth away.

(IBT) They make no attacks, not wanting to tangle with two pikes in the forest.

[2] 430 BC - Ok, next to Edo are two swords, three archers. One step back are
(gulp) 7 swords, 2 archers, 1 warr. We need to inflict PAIN!

MDI lays down the smack on a Chinese sword, promoting to elite.
Sadly, we don't have enough fresh offensive units to do more. We heal up, bracing
for the upcoming onslaught. With one shield short of a pike due to the AI movement,
we swap Edo to MDI and mm to make it due next turn.

(IBT) Three chinese units attack. I'm sitting here chanting "Hold! Hold! HOLD!!"
Our pike wins, promoting to elite. Second pike wins, then newly promoted one...
wins vs an archer! YES!! (China still won't come to peace)

[3] 410 BC - The problem is... even more units move up, and our defenders are all hurt.
Next door, 7 Swords, 3 arch, 1 warr next to our city, and a step back,
here come the MDI. Just one though, with an archer and warr. Charismeiji ponders...
We could attack with four, getting a little more hurt, fortify against the ten
attackers, or make an army of MDI (which can only attack once per round).
Charismeiji decides that to dish out the most pain, with few units, he can't fill one.

We build army but not to fill it, to allow a chance for another leader. SunTzu would
just look idiotic if we lose the game/city now, and SO close to Samurai, I will wait
until a Samurai, or true desperation, to fill it. MDI beats sword, promotes.
Elite MDI and archer both beat swords. Tough call...
China is still talking tough (9gpt away from free)

(IBT) In the field we win 1, lose 2. Held off *5* at Edo, lost two.
Korea demands tribute. HA!!!! We spit in his face. He declares war. We're very, very
glad he's on another continent. (This is probably due to our 'pulled goalie' defense.

[4] 390 BC - Our Cleaning Squad, now an MDI, beats down their single injured MDI.
On offense, we lose our archer, but wipe out a stack of three swords.
China hangs tight, but now just 7gpt from free peace.

China has Chivalry!!? If someone else gets it quickly, that means Samurai.
If *NOT* we'll face riders and it's ALL OVER.

(IBT) We trade an MDI in the field. Then his galley attacks our and we win.

WE MASTER CHIVALRY!!!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Chivarly-390BC.jpg

Now I seldom show a picture just for a new tech, but I yelled a cheer out loud
on seeing this arrive! :D

[5] 370 BC - I am REALLY sorry to have upgraded Cleaning squad now. No money to rush
a Samurai. Hey, there's only FOUR Chineese units near us now. We outnumber and outgun
them! Darn flat broke AI can't pay for this new tech either. Hosemen upgrade to
Samurai, I wish we had one or two around.

We lose to an unfortified warrior and promote him?? Ouch! Then we kill that warr and
one other, with MDI. Next we try a new kind of pressure on China. We move up
next to their city! Nagoya now has a pike and sword upon it.

(IBT) Ouch, we lose two.

[6] 350BC - Counterattacking their hurt guys, we win two, and have more units next to
Nagoya. One more archer killed. Two promotions to elite this round.

(IBT) Two archers attack us, losing both, and we promote on one.

[7] 330 BC - We are withing *20g* of peace with China! Elite sword wins. Elite MDI
goes against Nagoya and...

The city is once again OURS! [dance]

China will give all their treasury (60g) for peace. But not Tokyo!

This a matter for our NEXT leader to decide. Peace now, build up a Samurai
army (literally), or keep going and retake Tokyo before peace?? Both options
have strong advantages, look over the map carefully. We may not even have enough
to keep Nagoya. If it were to fall again... (shudder) it would take a LOT to
make China accept peace again, plus Riders can't be far away. My vote would be peace
(cease fire), with an aim toward shoring up defenses, Samurai army, then new limited
war when China presses or otherwise, to retake Tokyo.

Keep in mind we have *3* empty cities, and war with Korea. Theres a Chinese
galley that might swim past Edo next turn. Our galley is healing this round.
The empty army sleeps in Edo, awaiting a Samurai! (Others may have chose differently
on making the army, and since I didn't get another leader I can't refute it, but
that was a REALLY tough call under the worse battle conditions. We'll just have to
go out and take SunTzu someday :P )

Osaka's iron needs a pike ASAP. I truly couldn't spare one for that this round.
Osaka is working odd tiles this turn to get the pike out now. Edo wishes it could
work forests, but the commerce loss would make it unhappy. The Babylon troops have
been ignored, frankly. They sat a turn or two, then started to make genuine efforts
to leave our territory. It looks like they are heading west in large numbers, perhaps
for a war against China. If they show no guff, I would leave them alone, (I don't
want to be the suicidal assinine defiant nationalists :P ) especially if they end
up fighting China. Have no doubt though, their razing of Japanese city WILL mean
they must all die! We need to get our undefended cities covered asap too, or face
yet another tribute demand.

The decision on whether to drop out of Republic will depend on the peace decision.

I'm passing off now, with victory over China accomplished.
We're still in REALLY deep peril! Imagine a Babylon tribute demand now.

Save File RBP5 330BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Meiji-330_BC.zip)

Good luck!!
Charismeiji (back from Exile baby!!!!)

3 cheers for da man! I knew Charismeiji was the perfect man for this hairy situation! I think Jaxomeiji is up, consider this my got it. If I am mistaken, then ignore the got it.

Great turn Charis! :) Way to go!

We're still alive and kicking, if only barely. So far I've been at war the entire time for my 2 turns. It'll be interesting to see how many turns of peace we actually get in this game.

I remember from LOTR2 that we had empty armies hanging around also, because we couldn't afford to lose the attacks by putting units in armies. It'll probably be a while before we can fill an army with samurai.

I was also exhausted after playing last night and this morning. There is a lot of tension and constant critical decisions that have to be made. When Feudalism was discovered, that gave me a critical edge in combat, as long as I had the money for upgrades.

Peace with China seems desirable for several reasons. One is we can remove war weariness and possibly lower our lux tax. Also, it'd be nice to not be at war with China in case Babylon decides to re-declare war. I think an empty Osaka must be pretty tempting to Babylon.

I'm surprised Korea declared war. We had an ongoing deal with them where we gave horses and they gave 7 gpt, which it looks like they broke.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I like peace now. Having just ONE front, to put all our units at, has helped us immensely (after peace with Babs). Trying to defend Nagoya AND move on Tokyo would split troops we don't have.

As you noted, Feudalism was what has kept us alive here. Which means the Great Library has hands down been the best thing to happen to us (oh mighty Tojo!) We REALLY have to make sure Satsuma doesn't fall. Out of desperation, yes, I pulled its goalie, but that needs to be reversed asap.

Empty cities are like a "DEMAND TRIBUTE FROM ME!!!" sign hanging up in the window. In retrospect, I wonder if our gained city of Shuruppuk (which comes empty) was what set China off to think he should demand tribute. I have almost no doubt it's the empty cities that goaded Korea.

Also, it's been several turns since the Korean conflict started. If one of the upcoming turn they land a boat next to Pisces or another city, we'll not only have no way to stop them, but what we'll have to do to inflict enough pain will be brutal! If we can defend them, and smack down the 2 to 4 units that land, that pain enough will work for peace!

Charis

PS To those wondering if (or convinced) I was off my rocker, the reason behind this game was that I *DID* play 'no guff' (idential to this game unti nationalism arrives, where we pick up extra rules.) On Emperor diff, middle of a pangaea as FRANCE, surrounded by all military civs. I *destroyed* them, and won by domination. It was an extremely fun game, and I thought that on deity, in a corner, with a FAR better civ, it was playable. I still think it is. We got lulled a bit into thinking we were doing better than we were, pressing against the Babs. My huge focus in the emp game was to start with a very few number of cities, but have them all with barracks and plenty of defenders. I settled no cities really past my core 5. I made the cap and ring of 4 strong, got some guff, got into war, and gained territory not by settling but by capturing. (Not allowed here) I wish I remember now if I was Draconian about foreigners in my land, or loose. To be honest, it was probably loose. If they move a single unit through the outskirts, I kept on eye on him. If he sent a settler pair through, or a larger force, I did however tell him to get lost.

Glorious! Simply Glorious! We lurkers watching this game with interest bow down before the superior strength of the Meiji Emperors! :worshp:

With both this game and RBE6 looking up, we just may get through this crop of succession games without a loss. Even the insane Koreans game is still alive and kicking - but of course there's also plenty of time still to go in all these games. ;) At the very least, the competition to see which succession game will be the first one to lose is once again up for grabs! :crazyeye:

Jaxomeiji lets out a sigh at the sight of our nation. Gone is the dream of a peaceful retreat in Ellipi. A short discussion with Mao reveals that he would pay us 60 golds and 2gpt to stop the onslaught of Chinese troops. I accept, taking note that Tokyo will have to be liberated in the near future. Satsuma, home of the Great Library, is trying to build a barracks. Behind the walls, a regular pikeman will be much more useful in deterring hostile attempts. Iron is sold to Russia for 28 golds to help them mount a proper defense in case China decides to turn their way. We don't want to see China absorb Russia (shudder). This cash, along with the Chinese peace settlement, allows to rush a pike in Pisces and in Kagoshima so that we will have no more empty cities on the next turn.



310 BC Osaka pikeman -> pikeman, Pisces pikeman -> catapult, Kagoshima pikeman -> catapult.

290 BC Our first Samurai hits the field. Kyoto begins another one.

270 BC ...
250 BC ...

230 BC Osaka pikeman -> pikeman.

210 BC Engineering and Theology comes out of the GL. Pisces catapult -> harbor, Kagoshima catapult -> catapult, Edo samurai -> samurai, Satsuma catapult -> catapult.

190 BC Kyoto samurai -> samurai. Wang Kong is willing to talk but he wants 140 golds for peace. I wonder how we will bring that price down without going to Korea. Genghis requests Feudalism and receives the finger, he vows to destroy us.

170 BC ...
150 BC Osaka samurai -> samurai
130 BC ...



Jaxomeiji leaves the nation with 3 samurai adn 3 catapults on the fields, and 2 more of each to come out soon. Furthermore, all cities now have at least one defender, so does both mountains near Osaka. We need more workers, but whatever happens now, at least we have the basic strength to defen ourselves.

Here is the save at the end of 130 BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_meiji_bc0130.zip)

It's *SO* nice to see a turn where the following words were not used:

dire... hopeless... handcuffed... lose... disemboweled...

:goodjob:

I got real scared on your post for a minute, selling the iron. I thought you meant our ONLY iron, which would not serve the Samurai greater cause :P Having two is nice, iron sells VERY well even late in the game.

Bummer on the psuedo-war tributes. I hope they come over, let us bop 2 units on the head and call for peace. Even better if they send a slow weak stream and let us fish for leaders! :p

As far as Korea is concerned, they have TWO cities in 'South China'. Pyongsong and Taejon. Our galley could reach the shore down there in 3 turns (1 in Chinese waters), and Samurai attacking in on the third round after that. It's not like we have two samurai to spare on a wild goose chase right now. But if the war drags waaaaay on, that's one way to end it.

By all means get (probably) two Samurai in that army and use it to get a victory so we can build the Heroic Epic asap, as soon as we see a foe land. The only real downside to long ongoing wars is if/when they bring in an allly or trade embargo. Besides that, the other civ is locked in war mode and ignores infrastructure to their own detriment.

A thought, although it could be more weedy than anything else - we could settle a city west of Tokyo, say RIGHT next to those horses up two and over one from Nagoya! It would deny their horses and put huge cultural pressure on Tokyo. The flip side is dual: China actually has a tad more culture than we do, and the aggressive settlement might get us into a war where we could not well defend that city. Just a thought....

Arathorn << UP
Architect << On deck
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom

Good luck to our next leader (Arathorn)
Charis

Jaxom: I love hearing about those samurai and catapults! Wish I'd had some of those during my last turn.

Charis: I have a question on Tokyo. I'm pretty sure it has grown since I lost it, which means it has Chinese citizens in it. Should we raze it because of foreign nationals, or do we keep it (assuming we capture it)?

If we do have to raze it, I would vote for planting a new city on the middle incense mountain. When we go after the Babs, we want to have a defensive line against the Chinese and that would be a good anchor point. Also, its only 1 turn travel from Kyoto.

I see this and "got it"...hopefully tonight but no promises. RL has been tough lately.

Arathorn

There is really no doubt that "Tokyo" is a Japanese city, and always will be. It will have foreigners in it, which we won't be able to remove by starving without hurting our own people. Also, Tokyo DID and still does have Japanese culture in it due to our temple there. The temple disappears, but the culture does not, when it it captured.

The nice thing is... when you capture or recapture a city, over time the foreign element is 'assimilated'. I don't know the rate and I've never noticed it, but that saves face for us here. The other non-starving option we have would be to crank workers continutally from the city (running no growth) until there were no more foreigners there. If we do that, remember that the native laborers come off first, and the foreigners after that, until you're left with one native worker.

Good luck Arathorn,
Charis

Just now read through the whole harrying weekend of turns. Great work everybody! Hanging on by a thread is still hanging on.

Shuruppak was NOT undefended when China made his demands of me. Actually, China demanded before I made peace with Babylon, so it wasn't even our city. We had forces right next to the city and it had 2 spear defenders the turn we made peace with Babylon.

Mongols and Koreans, huh? OK. Hopefully, I can get a bit of infrastructure (marketplaces, anyone?) done, so that we don't fall to desperately behind. 6 cities ain't much, so we have to maximize their output.

Arathorn

Not really, but not too bad. Korea managed to land 3 transports worth of troops at various times. I'd been tracking them in, though, so they all immediately died.

The first boatload led to a promoted samurai and our Golden Age. OK, so only 6 cities isn't the best, but any boost we can at this point is appreciated. The second boatload saw....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-fujiwara.jpg

Fujiwara was immediately moved to Kyoto, where he inspired the building of a grand workshop -- the better to improve our troops with in the future. Invention, you see, had recently been found in the Great Library, making such an achievement possible. Sun Tzu's War Academy had, unfortunately, already been completed by the evil Chinese and was no longer an option. Massive cascade to Sistine ensued both times.

Education also came out of the library, one turn before Gunpowder was shopped, so we're down a tech already.

Income went from ~30 to ~140 gpt. This is due in a large part to the Golden Age, but a few well-placed marketplaces didn't hurt matters at all. For some inexplicable reason, the Arameiji family did not load any samurai into the army to get a victory to at least give the option of building the Heroic Epic, should another GL appear.

The Koreans are up to "doubtful" for peace, but all 3 visible galleys are empty.

China declared war on Russia fairly early in my turns (I think I only played 9, but 50AD seemed a logical place to stop). That might make them ripe for a small attack.

Pros:
- Get spices and excess ivory again (two cities)
- Should get paid for peace
- Most of their offensive troops will be sent against Russia, probably
- Add cities to our core area for greater production

Cons:
- Might show us as weak and get more tribute demands
- Would make getting free or better peace from Korea/Mongols harder
- Might get us smacked down

I visualize possibly retaking Tokyo and razing their spice city, planting our own.

One could make a similar argument for an attack against the Babylonians, but they're not at war with anyone else and have less immediately-available goods to gain. Of course, they did raise our city of Shurruppak and have to be destroyed at some point.....

Good luck, Architect! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-50ad.zip)

Arathorn

Edit There seems to be a problem with the upload server right now. I'll try again soon with the picture and the savefile and then go to another approach if it doesn't work fairly soon.

So, well, I got the picture to upload, but apparently my floppy has a bad sector or something, because I can't access the zip file with the save at all. I'll put that up this afternoon/evening, once I get home to my PC where I have it saved.

Arathorn

OK. It should be uploaded to

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-50ad.zip

which was the earlier address, too, I think (not checked). Everything's ready to go now.

Arathorn

I got it.

I'm finally on it. Some bad sushi sent me realling for a couple of days.. (no kidding..)

50AD(0) - I shop our WM around for a bit of gold. I think I will attack china with the goal of taking Nanking and Toyko.

IT: China brings in America to fight Russia. Korean's complete sistene in Wonsan.

70AD(1) - Move some troops around and rush a few things to one turn completion. Our Iron is available for trade but no deals make sense at this time. We can renegotiate our peace deal with china but I'm going to wait.

IT: Babs appear to be mounting an attack again. China comes to renegotiate and I realize that because we were taking per turn gold payments no matter what I do we are going to have to take 20 more turns of peace. I have to get China to declare war on us or stain or reputation.

90AD(2) I load our Fuji's Fighting force into our Army.

IT: China enlists babylon to fight russia. Korea lands a MI and Swordsman.

110AD(3)...

IT: Let the dogpile begin. Korea enlists russia to attack us. Korea attacks and we lose a Samurai. China enlists egypt to fight russia.

130AD(4) Our counterattack against Korea leaves one more samurai dead. We have 2 turn Sams in Kyoto through a rushed worker.

IT: Our army is victories defending against the Koreans and we can build the Heroic Epic.

150AD(5) Some Korean spearman are approaching us from China's lands. Korean's are pretty far from peace.

170AD(6) I'm trying to build up 2 pikemen in every city as deterrance and so all Sams can be made available for the war on China. China has Astronomy.

190AD(7) I ask china to leave and they don't comply. Our Sam army is complete. I'm moving troops into position to attack china.

210AD(8) I demand china leave again and they don't comply.

230aD(9) I demand china leave again and they don't comply. If we declare war our rep is stained but I feel like I should. We can trade horses to Egypt but I think they might be gone by 20 turns. I leave that 2 the next leader to decide.

250AD(10) I demand china leave and again they don't comply.

I hope I wasn't supposed to declare war on the chinese. If I was, the effect will be the same now as it would have been 4 turns ago. The Korean's are about to land some more forces on our coast so the next leader my want to move some SAMS back from the Chinese front to attack them. Right now all our forces are poised to attack the two important border chinese cities.
Becareful trading resources to weak civs.

Good Luck.

250AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-250ad.zip)

Got it.

Summary:

The Chinese declared war on my first full turn after I ordered
their ships out of our territory. The war has been brutal at
times. Riders are very tough units, especially if they get
behind the front lines. We have captured Tokyo and held it
against a swarm of riders.

I am stopping after 7 turns because we have come to a crossroads
and I'll let Charis decide which way he wants to go. We can
make peace with the Chinese and get a 2 for 1 deal with
Banking and either Gunpowder or Astronomy, or we can continue'
the attack and try for Nanking and establish our own city down
there and control the spices.

I slightly favor taking Nanking, founding our own city down there,
and then getting peace. The Chinese are probably gassed out and
they haven't finished off the Russians yet. They have largely
retreated the last turn, I am not sure if they just ran out of
troops or they have urgent business elsewhere, but either way
it sounds like an opportunity. Just be wary of the Babs jumping
in. That caused a lot of worry during my turns.

(0) Preturn 250AD

I am very happy to see 2 pikes in every city. Great job Architect
on freeing up the samurai.

Veto barracks in Pisces and change to temple. It's already on the edge
of happiness. I'd like to go for walls, but there's a forest chop
due next turn and it will probably go to Pisces.

MM Kagoshima from +2 food and +9 spt to +1 food and +10 spt and
change from samurai to walls in 1. There's a Korean galley on the
way and I want to feel safe with the samurai away at the front.

Change Edo from samurai to pike. It can get to 10 spt.

Diplo check

Russia: refuse to talk, no threat with everyone except Mongols
at war with them, and they're down to 4 cities.
America: even tech, 2g, I give WM + 9g for their WM. Korea has
founded a new city on newly discovered land off their west
coast.
Korea: +Gunpowder, 4g, insulted by peace. We need to get peace with
them because they're our best 2 for 1 trading partner.
Mongols: -Theology, -Invention, 10g, doubtful for peace.
Egypt: -Invention, 21g, I give WM for their WM + 2g. Can only pay
19g for iron or horses. I decline, trade route is too risky
and they don't have enough gold.
Babylon: +Gunpowder, +Astronomy, 29g, we trade WMs.
China: +Gunpowder, +Astronomy, 744g, I trade WM + 1g for their WM.
We have a peace treaty with them for 11 more turns.

China is running away with this game so far. I don't think we can
wait 11 more turns to attack them because

1) Russia is falling fast and then their troops will turn around
head back in our direction.

2) China has Gunpowder and will probably upgrade its pikes to
muskets soon. So far Nanking is defended by a reg pike showing.
Can't see Tokyo bu probably the same there.

3) Tokyo is size 6 already and will probably get to 7 soon.
There's a big difference attacking pikes at size 6 and muskets at
size 7.

4) Time is against us here. China is growing faster than we are so
I think any delay is in their favor.

We can't attack both Tokyo and Nanking at the same time, because we
lack enough samurai attacks. I want to use samurai because they can
attack without having to spend a turn getting right next to the city.
I will send the cats and MDI back to defend the backline cities from
the Korean and Chinese galleys there (3 Chinese and 1 Korean galley
are visible). The samurai will gather in Kyoto this turn.

Next turn I will order the Chinese out and hope they declare war. If
they don't, I will declare war and attack Tokyo. The pikes and
all samurai will move in and hold the city.

Next turn the samurai will move out to the hill just E of Nagoya.
They will attack the following turn and then guard the settler and
the new city. Then I will try and hold on until I get peace with China.

I'm not sure how much our rep will suffer from declaring war with 10
turns left on the peace treaty. At least there's no per turn or other
goods traded on the peace deal.

From the nationalistic viewpoint, I'd rate getting Tokyo back as more
important than our international rep from what Charis said at the
beginning.

(I)

Russia down to 3 cities
Korean and Chinese galleys move around
Kyoto sam -> sam
Kago walls -> pike

(1) 260AD

Russia is doubtful for peace. Doesn't matter, they're going down fast.
Trade WM around for 9g
Demand that China move its ships or declare war. They declare war (yeah!).
Now we're at war with Russia, Mongolia, Korea, and China (feels like AW).

I'd like to get Gunpowder from the Babs to get some insurance from them
attacking us, but its 78gpt and there's no 2 for 1 opportunity so I pass.

Darn, Tokyo just grew to size 7. Well, its now or never for attacking so
here goes.

Samurai army loses 5hp but takes out vet pike.
Next sam retreats doing 0 damage.
Next sam wins, taking 2 hp damage and Tokyo is ours.
Tokyo has 4 resistors, 2 japanese citizens, order a temple.
That was easy, now comes the hard part. Hanging on to Tokyo.

Sam attacks Korean spear on hill next to Tokyo and wins, then goes into
Tokyo. I love these fast troops. I pickup 1 russian slave around Tokyo,
other one gets away due to lack of troops.

Move other troops around to prepare for Korea and Chinese landings.

(I)

Galleys move, no landings.
Resistance in Tokyo ended, I am starving it down.
Edo pike->pike
Nagoya granary->marketplace
Chinese reg MDI shows up just outside Tokyo.

(2) 270AD

I rush temple at Pisces
Wounded sam and sam army from attack move into Tokyo for healing.

Vet sam attacks MDI, does no damage, and retreats.
Another vet sam attacks MDI, and dies.
Finally 3rd sam goes out and kills it!
Boy, this war is going to be painful if it's all like this.

Sell WM around for 2g

(I)

New Chinese MDI takes out my pike on mt next to Tokyo
Chinese rider dies attacking army in Tokyo
Tokyo starved to size 6
Still no galley land

(3) 280AD

I hurry walls in Tokyo
Cat Bombards 3hp MDI on mt next to Tokyo, miss
Sam from Osaka attacks MDI on mt and wins, goes to elite
1st sam from Tokyo attacks nearby rider and dies.
2nd sam from Tokyo attacks another rider and wins
3rd same attacks rider and wins

Sell WM around for 2g

(I)

Chinese don't attack but instead move troops up.
6 riders and MDI on mt next to Tokyo
2 riders on hill next to Tokyo
1 longbow on another hill by Tokyo
pike and spear on grass next to Tokyo

Korea lands a sword along coast
We build 2 sams, pike, and a temple

(4) 290AD

Sell WM around for 2g
Hurry walls in Pisces

Now for the attacks.
Elite MDI attacks landed Korea elite sword and wins
Cat in Tokyo fires on rider on hill by Tokyo and misses
11/13 army in Tokyo attacks rider on hill, wins but now 8/13
Sam attacks 3/4 rider on hill and wins
Other sams attack killing longbow, spear, and pike.

The rather large stack of riders on the mt is still untouched

(I)

Chinese riders kill pike and sam on hill NE of Tokyo
They also kill sam and MDI on hill S of Tokyo
Chinese caravel shows up along with galleys


(5) 300AD

Trade WM around for 2g
There are 6 riders I want to kill and only 5 sams available
3 cats attack rider on hill NE of Tokyo, 2/3 hit.
Elite sam attacks that rider and wins
Another elite hits 1/4 rider in same stack and wins
Reg sam dies attacking 1/4 rider on hill
Vet sam kills another rider between Tokyo and Kyoto
I hurry sams in Osaka and Satsuma for about 400g

6 workers have to flee into Kyoto because of 2 riders in jungle
between Tokyo and Kyoto.

(I)

GA over, down to 85gpt
Super sam on hill kills 2 riders before dying to 3rd
Chinese retreat, either gasses or maybe regrouping for attack elsewhere
Chengdu and Nanking have muskets now

(6) 310AD

MM all cities after GA end
Elite sam attacks vet MDI next to Chengdu and wins
Move troops around

(I)

Rider kills sam on hill NE of Tokyo
Galleys and caravel sail round our coast

(7) 320AD

Elite sam kills the offending rider
Reg sams covers the wounded elite

Trade WM round for -1g

I decide to stop here and let Charis decide whether he want to continue
the war or stop. The chinese will take peace and even offer a discount
on Banking @2 price. You can then trade that to Babs for Gunpowder or
Astronomy. Other choice is continue war and attack Nanking. There is
a settler in Edo to replace Nanking as spice city.

Comments:

The chinese are probably gassed.
No sign of Russian or Mongolian troops
Korea landed one sword on the coast
China has not landed anything
Tokyo was never in danger of falling, but riders are tough

Save File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-320ad.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-320ad.jpg

Why are you starving Japanese citizens?

If you mean Tokyo, he isn't. When you starve a city, your own pop points go first. So starvation order (from what I heard) will be this:
Japanese citizien
Japanese citizien
Chinese citizien
Chinese citizien
Chinese citizien
Unstarvable Chinese citizien.

Jaxom: Unfortunately, when I captured Tokyo it was size 7 and there were 5 Chinese and 2 Japanese citizens. Four of the Chinese citizens were resistors during the first turn.

The Chinese were so unhappy that, down to about size 3, there was no choice in starving the city, they refused to work. They complained about aggression agains the mother country.

What I did not know was what Erik Mesoy pointed out, the Japanese citizens were starved first. After it got to about size 3 and I had a choice, I kept starving them because I want to get down to one Chinese citizen and then build up Japanese citizens.

It would be better to have no Chinese citizens in Tokyo, but I don't know how to do that, short of abandoning the city and founding a new one.

Charis...I know RL has you kinda swamped at the moment. Do you want to take skip this round? It's been a couple days....

Arathorn

Shoot! Guys, this is why I always try to put "<-- UP" and "<-- On Deck" when I submit a game. I had no idea I was up here too, sorry. Let me check out my situation tonight and see what's up. If I get hijacked for a movie I'll post a 'skip me' but otherwise hope to put in quite a few hours tonight :P

Tnx for the bump,
Charis

Ok, I'll take the skip. Just too much catch-up to do and I've delayed things enough here, let's keep the ball rolling. Sorry I didn't catch this earlier... Thanks.

Arathorn <<-- On deck
Architect
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom <<-- UP

:rolleyes:
Charis

got it

I know I'm not up (yet, quite), but there's no way I'm going to be able to put any kind of concentration into Civ3 for the next few days. Suffice it to say, I envy Charis with a wife with a bum ankle and "4 under 4" plus a year at this point. Hopefully, RL wil give me a break by the next time my spot in the rotation rolls around.

Arathorn

Preturn: Everything stay pretty much as it is except I don't like Tokyo with Chinese nationals in it, so a worker is rushed out and a settler is rushed in Kagoshima to replace Tokyo. The samurai army moves near to Chengdu as well as an elite MedInf. Our samurais can hit Chengdu from the mountain so they are moved there. Dyes are imported from America for 11 gpt. Our deal with Babylon is renewed to get us ivory for incense and 2 gpt. An embassy is opened in Babylon so that we know what they are up to. The city is defended by 4 pikeman and is currently building Copernicus at 12 spt, to be completed in 12 turns.



IT: Lincoln wants a gift, he is sent back empty-handed. China destroy Russia, good riddance but now we need a strong Babylon to keep the chinese in check. An elite rider kills a regular samurai but not before loosing 4 hp.

330 AD The battle of Chengdu leads to a visit from Tojo. He is used to build the Heroic Epic in Kyoto.

IT: A chinese rider kills Tojo and runs off in the fog. A chinese longbowman lands near Edo.

340 AD The longbowman is easily dispatch, our samurais move toward Nanking.

IT: Babylon begins Bach. A couple of riders destroy a couple of our pikes near Tokyo.

350 AD An elite samurai kills off a stray rider and Hirohito shows up. This changes my plans for Tokyo, music theory is bought from Korea for 400 golds and 15 gpt, which is a bargain compared to Babylon 400 golds and 25gpt, ending this useless war. Bach is rushed in Tokyo and the settler moves to replace Chengdu. Our samurais move on Nanking.

360 AD A bloody battle at Nanking leads to the destruction of the city and a new leader, Fujiwara. Peace is signed with China, getting us banking for 50 gpt. Banking is then traded to the American for Gunpowder. We have no saltpeter within 500 miles of our nation but there is one free saltpeter available on the southern sub-continent. Plans are made to send a settler pair over there as soon as possible. The city of Izumo is founded between Ashur and Satsuma. All core cities are changed to banks.

370 AD Fujiwara is used to rush a FP in the new city of Nagasaki, which replaces Chengdu. A settler is rushed to go claim the saltpeter. China, Babylon and Korea are up astronomy and chemistry, America is even, Egypt lacks banking.

IT: Temujin wants peace but he wants banking for it, so we are still at war. Korea declares war on Babylon.

380 AD ...

IT: China begins Newton's University.

390 AD Yokohama is founded in the middle of the spices.

400 AD ...
410 AD ...
420 AD Egypt has astronomy but not chemistry. Korea sell us chemistry for 42gpt and 420 golds and Egypt wants our iron with that to give us astronomy. Korea and China have physics and everybody else is at par except the backward Mongol.

430 AD ...
440 AD ...

IT: China and Korea begin building Magellan's Voyage.

450 AD ...


Pisces Hill can be micro-managed to get a worker out every 5 turns as it grows, while being our single scientist research center. I could not find a better place to get workers out and we need a lot more workers than what we have.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_saltpeter.jpg

This is the unclaimed saltpeter. There are 2 galley on the way, one with a pike settler, the other with a pike, samurai. You should put the city directly on the saltpeter or at worst on the yellow X.

Here is the save at the end of 450 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_meiji_ad0450.zip)

Here is the map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_view_ad0450.jpg

Great turn Jaxom! 3 leaders, 3 new cities, and 5 techs. Not bad for a game we almost gave up on. We've gone from "the captain going down with the ship" status up to "reasonable world power" status.

If we can get some peace here to build infrastructure things will look positively rosy. The main problem I see is the cultural battles we have with China and Babylon on the frontier cities. That could come back to bite us, so we have to push the culture there. Of course, getting the Heroic Epic and Bach doesn't hurt.


Arathorn <<-- Skip
Architect <<-- UP
cpp1 <<-- On deck
Charis
Jaxom

Wow Jaxom, great job! The only unease is when I look at China :eek:

We have an Epic and FP now? Yay! Just be *careful* all, about the possibility of Nagasaki, our FP city flipping. I know that Architect sure appreciates the pain of that. Rush that temple for starters, and keep a decent garrison if you can. We'll want two full rings around that puppy some day (that's a tall order right now) Ouch, we're seeing some pressure at Osaka too.

I like our 'shape', no sign of any wandering troops right now!

The turnaround here and in RBE6 Vikings is amazing. Although RBP2 is going to have to pull a rabbit *very* deep out of its pocket. This one could still get extremely ugly very quickly though, stay diligent!

Charis

Chinese culture is not too much above ours. Babylon is the danger culture-wise. I think we should hit China again when peace expire, to get rid of Tientsin and Shanghai.

Being militarist and with the Epic built, we will get enough leaders to replace the FP if need be, so I did not hesitate too long to put the FP in Nagasaki. It is quite central and will work well whether we go after China or Babylon. However, I think we need to concentrate on China or they will run away with the game. Only Babylon is in a position to do some damage to China, so we better help them keep up.

Sorry guys, I need a skip here. I'm out of town dealing with family illness so I won't be able to play until monday at the earliest.

I swear I just played this game, but its back to me again. Wow, I am actually playing without us being involved in any major wars, a new experience for me this game. Probably will post on Saturday am

Arathorn
Architect <<-- Skip
cpp1 <<-- UP
Charis <<-- On deck
Jaxom

Summary:

The Babs declared war in the 1st inbetween turns. We were ill-prepared
seeing as how the frontline cities were protected by single pikes, all the
samurai were at the Chinese border, and all the core cities were on long-term projects,
mostly banks. Also our economy was largely mortgaged with previous tech deals.

We lost Izumo immediately, and were in serious trouble in several other areas. The
end result was we were able to hold the line on the rest of the cities, get 2 GLs,
one used for a bank in Kagoshima, other used to build Smith's Trading Post in Kyoto.
Also continued infrastructure builds in most cities. Midwar through the war Shimonoseki
was founded on saltpeter hill in the southern continent and hooked up allowing judicious
upgrades from pike to muskets (gold was always in short supply). We also traded for 5
techs, although only Metallurgy and Physics were core ones, but Economics was needed
for Smith's and Navigation and Printing Press came along for little to no cost.

Report:

cpp-meiji at last fulfilled his dream of leading the glorious Japanese nation forward
into the treacherous world. The nation had just fought China and was at peace for the
first time since anyone could remember. He looked forward to spending his time counting
his gold, holding palace parties, and sneaking time with the dancing girls while the
Empress was away.

Shortly after taking power, in the middle of the night, his foreign advisor woke him up
and said the Babylonian ambassador had to see him immediately. He grumbled, turned over,
and went back to sleep. 10 minutes later, he was rudely awakened by the Bab ambassador and
told to pay 20g and his WM or the Babs would declare war. In no mood to take any guff, he
told the ambassador where to stick his gold and then promptly called for a meeting with
his advisors.

The situaion was grim. The frontline cities next to the Babs were mostly protected by a single
pike regiment. The real power, the samurai. were all still at the Chinese front. The Babs, by
cowardly declaring war in the middle of the night had already taken a city, Izumo, before the
Japanese troops could even move. All the core cities were building banks or other long-term
projects and no one could say when any more troops could be trained. The economy was already
strained by previous deals, so no expediting of troops was possible.

The American ambassador offered to supply Japan with saltpeter, but at an exorbitant cost. After
serious consideration cpp-meiji said no thanks, the Japanese would carry out the southern
continent plan, even though that would take 5-6 turns to supply saltpeter.

The fighting was thick and furious, but in the end the samurai were victorious and the Babs
sued for peace. One of the last battles was the proud samurai army against a new kind of rifleman
troop. The sam army barely won with 2/14 hp left and shortly after that peace was declared.

During the fighting 2 soldiers attained the highest honors. One founded a bank in Kagoshima, the
other persuaded Mr. Smith to set up shop in Kyoto. Many banks and other building were built, and
some new technology was discovered.

The near future brings some delicate negotiations with Korea and China about continuing peace and
learning some of the newer technologies being discovered. The great Japanese nation is at peace
again. We need more workers, more culture in border cities, and more infrastructure including
acqueducts. Good luck and take no guff.

(0) 450AD Pre-turn:

Diplo check

Russia: gone
America: even tech, 3g
Korea: +Navigation, +Physics, +Theory of Gravity, 36g
Mongolia: -Astronomy, 0g, willing to make peace straight up
Egypt: even tech, 7g, lost cities to America
Babylon: +Navigation, +Physics, 2g
China: +Navigation, +Physics, +Metallurgy, +Theory of Gravity, 88g

There are some trading opportunities but we don't have to gold or gpt
to swing them yet. We're a little gassed out economically. I make a
straight up peace deal with the Mongols. They don't have anything and
its time to end this worthless war.

I guess ending the war gave us a little unhappiness. I have to set lux to
10% to keep Kyoto happy. I switch it from samurai in 3 to cathedral in 3.
We're coming up to that time where the 1000 year bonus makes a difference.
I move 3 cats from Nagasaki to Tokyo. They don't help with flips and if
Nagasaki flips I don't want to lose them and the FP. Finally I move the
army to Yokohama and one sam from Yoko heading toward Nagasaki as flip
suppression moves.

I notice the Mongols have 3 vet galleys near one of our southern continent
galleys so I'm glad I made peace with them.

(I) Well, I knew it was too good to last. The Babs demanded WM + 20g. Of course
I refused. They declared war and took Izumo immediately. The pike there fought
bravely against the knight but died. Our defenses are a little thin, most cities
facing the Babs have one defender in them. Also our economy is mortgaged to the
hilt with previous tech deals so gold is going to be tight.

(1)460AD

I decide to wait for our own saltpeter to come online instead of buying it from
America for 16gpt. It would be faster to buy it but better long term to get our
own in about 5 turns as long as the war doesn't become desperate. All samurai are
ordered to the Bab front. The extra pikes along the coast are ordered to the Bab
front also. Our 6 Chinese workers, next to a Bab knight decide to retreat into Tokyo
even though their mine would be completed next turn.

Elite Sam kill vet Bab knight, covered by another elite sam

This war has come at a really bad time. We're low on offensive troops (4 sam, army,
3 MDI), low on gold (60g + 33gpt) and all cities are busy on banks, except Kyoto who
building a catherdral. Had to hire scientist in Kyoto for 2 turns to keep lux at 0%.
It doesn't affect the cathedral build time, but Kyoto is losing 1 fpt. Since its
size 12 already that doesn't matter now. Pisces scientist was fired.

(I) 10 more Bab knights come into view. One defeats our pike on iron mt near Osaka.
Another is Bab knight is defeated at the next door mt. A third is defeated at Nagasaki.

(2)470AD

Cats get a hit on Bab knight on iron mt, getting it down to 1/4 hp. Elite sam takes it
out without damage. Another elite sam takes out knight near Nagasaki, losing 3hp.

Change Nagasaki from temple to barracks in 2. Wounded are coming in and must be healed.

Sell WM around for 2g.

I send the samurai on the galley back to our mainland, he's needed here. The settler
and 2 pikes goto the saltpeter mountain.

(I)

Chinese complete Newton's at Beijing
Kyoto cathedral-sam
Tokyo temple-pike
Babs move knights around, no attacks, 9 knights visible

(3) 480AD

Sell WM around for 6g
Have to save 156g to rush harbor in Shimonoseki for saltpeter next turn.
I setup a knight trap around Tokyo, hope the Babs fall for it.

(I)

Bab knight dies attacking Satsuma
Another retreats attacking Nagasaki
Edo bank-sam
Satsuma bank-sam
There's a Bab longbow and 5 knights next to Nagasaki
There's 4 knights next to Tokyo

(4) 490AD

I hurry harbor in Shimonoseki for 156g, leaving us 6g, for the saltpeter
Cats get 1/3 hits on knights next to Tokyo
The sam army and 2 elite sams take out 3 knights next to Tokyo, last one get Tojo
Tojo is used to rush a bank in Kagoshima (saving Kago 26 turns)
We could get Magellan's by buying Navigation for 36gpt, but I need the money for upgrades.
An army is out of the question, can't spare the 3 units.

(I)
Babs move troops around, no attacks
Chinese move worker onto our land
Nagasaki barracks-temple
Kagoshima bank-pike
Shimonosecki harbor-walls
Babs have spear, MDI, bowman, 3 knights, 2 longbows, pike, a musket visible

(5) 500AD

Sell Wm around for 4g

China: +Econ, +Phys, +Nav, +Metal
Korea: +Phys, +Nav, +Metal
Mongol: +Phys, +Nav
Egypt: +Nav
America: even tech

The stars are lined up for a 4 for 1 tech deal. Heck, if I get a GL I could get
Smith's thrown in there also. Don't have enough leverage to get Metal though.

This turn we defeat 2 knights, 2 longbows, losing nobody
WW has moved up another step
Upgrade 2 pikes to muskets, finally.

(I)
Mongols are building Magellan's
More Babs move around, no attacks

(6) 510AD

Upgrade 3 more pikes to muskets
Heal up sams, no attacks

(I)
Kyoto sam-sam
Mongols are building Smith's, I want that

(7) 520AD

All 3 cats miss
The sam army defeats a longnow
An elite sam defeats a musket
Another elite sam defeats a pike and Hirohito appears

We need another luxury for WW
We need Economics to build Smiths
I want to do a 2 for 1 to get Metallurgy and Physics
Is all this possible on our ~80gpt budget?

America: +Metal, +Printing, +Nav
Korea: +Nav, +Phys, +Metal
Mongols: +Metal, +Phys, +Printing, +Econ, +Nav
Egypt: +Nav, +Phys
China: +Metal, +Phys, +Printing, +Econ, +Nav
Babs: refuse to talk

China wants 52gpt for Econ, and 13gpt for gems
Mongols want 36gpt+spice for Econ

I buy Econ from the Mongols for 36gpt+spice and rush Smith's in Kyoto
I cancel the deal with America where we got dyes for 11gpt
Instead I trade them Econ, WM, 38gpt for Metal and dyes
Then I trade Econ, Metal, Horses, and 5gpt to Egypt for Physics and Navigation
I buy gems from China for 13gpt
I trade Physics to America for Printing
We now have an income of 8gpt

However Smith's will come in next turn, and our 50gpt deal with China expires
in 4 turns, so we're not in too bad of shape.

I switch our lone scientist in Kyoto to Democracy

(I)

Darn, the Babs have moved a rifleman up
Kyoto finished Smiths, now on samurai
Osaka finished Bank, now on samurai

(8) 530AD

In battles we kill a rifle, 2 knights, MDI, bowman and lose a sam.
I make peace with the Babs, they give us 4gpt and WM
We're not going to get far against riflemen, and I'd rather be fighting China
China is the bigger threat in this game.

(I)

Babs start moving out

(9) 540AD

Everyone moves to healing cities. Every sam plus the army is wounded.
Sell WM around for 29g
Watching Egypt and America for a 2fer on Theory and Magnetism
Sell incense to Babs for 182g

(I)

Babs move out of our territory
Nagasaki temple-cathedral

(10) 550AD

Sams are healing.
There's a good deal with Korea on either Theory or Magnetism, but I'm still waiting for a 2fer.

A peace deal with Korea just expired where we are paying then 15gpt for peace (probably part of a tech deal earlier). I'll leave it to the next leader to renegotiate it in case Korea decides to declare war (highly unlikely I think , since they're at war
with the Babs now).

Also, a big peace deal with China expires next turn.

Save File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-550ad.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-550ad.jpg

Arathorn
Architect
cpp1
Charis <<-- UP
Jaxom <<-- On deck

Nice turn cpp!

"Got it"
Charis

That's one scary China! Still, you guys have done brilliantly to have survived the early wars relatively intact. I think that was the most dangerous phase. Good luck with the middle game.

- Sirian

There is a peculiar rosy scent in the air, as Cppsan brings home Smith's, our samurai
are fearless and strong, and things are far better than during Charismeiji's last
reign! And yet, there is a deep, dark cloud to the west, foretold by the prophet
Siriansan... China. The Babylonians rattled their sabers and are asking for a serious
whooping. (And yet... that would only serve China well) We await a trade with Korea for
Magnetism or ToG, hopefully a special. Peace deals with Korea and China are due. That
jungle is really killin' us as far as getting productive.

We have 11 cities, in a Republic. Military is weak against China, Korea, Mongols, and Babs,
avg vs America, strong vs Egypt.

[0] 550 AD - Build orders seem good. I swap Tokyo to Samurai, as its size doesn't warrant
a marketplace just yet, and we're too vulnerable to tribute demands right now. Likewise
Osaka holds off on Cathedral for a Samurai.

Korea's power is higher, so I let HIM come to the bargaining table, for free peace IBT.

[1] 560 - Yoko finishes temple starts barracks. The very prototype of our Mil/Rel civ!
America and Egypt now have ToG, time for that 'deal' we wanted. Korea now has Econ
but now PP. Er... we can't afford Magnetism? We'll need to wait one more turn as the
China 50gpt expires. (IBT) Peace for free with China.

[2] 570 - Phew, they still need the tech. The Incense deal to Korea for 10gpt expires, so
well sell PP+39gpt+Incense for Magnetism from Korea. Then Magnetism+PP to Egypt for
Theory of Gravity+WM and 1g (all she has). We're now in the Industrial Era. Only 5
turns into Democracy, not important for us, I was planning to switch to Nationalism.
Then of course I remember we're Nationalists! Of COURSE we switch to this VITAL
tech! We must proceed to get that ASAP. In this case, ASAP means 40 turns, since 50%
research is still 40 and runs big deficit. 8-\ America doesn't get Magnetism as they
can't pay. Perhaps they'll do us a favor and research Mil Tradition!?
China has Nationalism and Steam, Korea just Nationalism, Temujin just Steam.
At least we're in good shape as far as having trading partners.

(IBT) China and Babylon sign an MPP (ugh!!) And it gets *MUCH* worse!!
China THEN runs TWO stacks next to our cities!! Three next to Yokohama and
a longbow approaching Shimonoseki. Top civs show up with Mil Tradition now.

[3] 580 - We have no choice of course, military stack movement next to our city
requires a 'boot' order. Will China part with Mil Tradition? No. How about if we
change every single working citizen to maximize income? "Close??" Hrm... Egypt has
lower power, let's squeeze her. She doesn't squeeze much, giving 1gpt and 1g for a
renegotiated peace. Still 'close?!" We go through the kingdom again and come up with
4 more gpt off hidden river tiles. Now up to 73gpt instead of 40. "A deal!!" Woo!!
We purchase Military Tradition from China for WM+73gpt+261g.

NOW we tell China to beat it!! The reaction?? The Chinese declare war. (We were
in deep water economically if not) I go back and reset all workers to shields,
and have a tiny amount of cash for rushing. One problem with Mil Tradition (why on
earth didn't I rememeber this beforehand?) is that we can no longer make Samurai!
Charismeiji is so brilliant that he is stupid!!! We LIKED mobile defense 4 units.
Osaka was almost done with Samurai, now due for our first cav in 2.

Part of the awful timing is that we have about 15 workers mid-clearing of jungle.
Our hope is to weather the Chinese attack and NOT hit them in their own territory
which would bring in the Babs. Two cities near our border are about to finish aqueducts.
We're going to let them finish to get a size 7 bonus. Pisces however, swaps to cav.
After we re-swap citizen workers, we end up at +39gpt and a scientist.
Yokohama rushes its barracks, and Shimo its walls.

Now for military moves... our samurai army LEAPS up and runs toward the western front.
Samurai Tojo also heeds the call.

(IBT) Cleo hops in bed with Mao. Not a pretty sight. They ally vs Japan. 8-|
Fortunately she is irrelevant.

It's quite disheartening to see the Chinese movement this turn. "Riders on the Storm!"
Not many attack, but many move into position (with great celerity). One does win,
one loses, at Yakohama. At LEAST two dozen units moved into position. Then the saddest
sight of all... a Rider *ARMY*. It attacked Nagasaki, and our brave Musketman took out
about 8 or 9 hp before he died. The Samurai army vows vengeance!! :hammer:
The Mil Academy is recommended with our new tech. Not right now, we need UNITS.

[4] 590 - The Army of Tojo attacks the villainous Chinese Army. We defeat the inferior
Rider units, but take 5hp damage in doing so. Four riders are in range to bypass
Nagasaki, our stronghold, and hit Tokyo, so I shift some Samurai over there.
At Yokohama we lose an MDI but defeat a rifle and rider. At Nagasaki an elite sam
defeats a Rider. Hirohitosam defeats another. Tojosam and a few others upgrade to
cav (just 10g). We brace for the counterattack.

(IBT) At first it looks ok, they do NOT press on to Tokyo, although they would have
probably one, but the riders move back. Actually, they're all shifting now to
Yokohama. We hold off one rider, but then a cav and rider kill our elite pike and
musket defenders, and... Yokohama is razed - truly treacherous! There are no more attacks
but *16* units surround Nagasaki, a motley assortment of villains.

In other news, Babylon declared war on the Americans (due to MPP).

[5] 600 - We rush a musket in Edo and move the one there up to Nagoya. Two cav take out
two riders near Nagasaki. A cav retreats, then elite sam beats a rider. A good round,
but is it enough? If only they would talk now, they've taken a big bloody nose. But...
we've lost a city. Peace may be tough.

(IBT) Not bad... we had stationed a musket on our incense hill outside Tokyo.
THREE riders retreated from him. Sadly if that had been a samurai those 3 would be
dead. In less exciting news, more and more units are piling on next to Nagasaki.
11 on a mountain next to it, while ten units now have slid past Nagasaki to
head to less protected interior cities. The jungle is now our friend, slowing their
advance. Still, we must hold out a fair bit longer. In more sad news, we now see
two Chinese *cav* in our land.

[6] 610 - Cav takes out one of the hurt riders. MDI takes out another, exposed. Our
army takes out one of those new cavs, and one of our cavs hits the second. That
leaves one 1hp rider, and no one to cover him, so we press. Vet musket beats him,
promoting to elite. Pleeeeeeeze talk soon, we're kicking tush right now before they
hit our soft underbelly. Despite hvy losses, the AI strategy is sound, with a
"pinning" force at Nagasaki and a flank attack towards Nagoya. Finally, we pull
our goalies, shifting forces out of Pisces and Kagoshima. We need defense at
Nagoya, or the rear won't matter.

(IBT) Were you hoping for bad news? You got some. Treacherous Korea signs an alliance
against us. The worst part - *Egypt* dragged them in! :bashhead: Our income now +143.
Rider kills the exposed MDI, then out of the fog from Babylon a cav rides out and
kills that newly elite musket (ack!!)

At Nagoya two riders fly in, and kill our musket there. Now there is just one pike left!
Half of the large stack outside Nagasaki moves past, now seeing Tokyo as weak.
Several units go in a direction that might be Nagoya, or might be deeper to Pisces.

Here's a picture of the big hotzone around this time...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Meiji-HoldingOn640ad.jpg

[7] 620 - China still won't talk. Elite sam slays rider. Elite sam beats 1hp rider.
(Come on, where is a leader??) Cav beats pike, cav beats hurt musket, cav beats MDI.

(IBT) Cav runs up to Tokyo and attacks, redlining our musket, but the cannon hitting
in defense saved the day. A cav hits our cav outside Nagoya and wins, dropping to 1hp.
MDI loses to our musket, then MDI defeats a musket, finally MDI loses to a cav.
The Chinese troops stream PAST Nagoya and Nagasaki, heading deeper. To be clear,
this is NOT "puppet strings" but I genuinely need all defenders up front. By the time
they actually reach Pisces the war will be over, one way or the other :P The only
'surprise' danger would be a Korean boat landing next to empty Pisces.
In other news, Mongols finish Magellan's in Kazan, breaking a mini-cascade.

[8] 630 - China STILL won't talk... come on, come on!
Elite cav beats cav. Musket takes out 1hp cav at Nagoya, promoting to elite.
Cav retreats vs musket. Elite Sam goes for ldr vs hurt MDI in open. Wins, no ldr.

(IBT) The sam beats a cav, retreats to a longbow, then dies to a musket (ew!)
Chinese cav beats a musket. There are now 23 chinese units in a clump between our
three western cities.

[9] 640 - China won't talk. Our army goes nuts, killing a rifle AND a pike.
Elite sam avenges by slaying the longbow. Cav beats cav.

(IBT) We're sunk.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Meiji-Toast640ad.jpg

The *VILE* Chinese sign Babylon to an alliance against us. It's not enough they
had an MPP. It's not enough I carefully avoided triggering the MPP. Not enough
that Egypt and Korea joined the dogpile. Now Babylon stabs us in the back.
Cav beats cav outside Nagoya, cav beats musket inside Nagoya.

[10] 650 AD - No actions taken yet. Our next leader has a "Beyond Hopeless" position
that makes previous hopeless positions seem victorious. I have flat out beaten China
down, giving them about triple casualties. The city that fell at the very outset
may have set their pain tolerance so high that we'll never see them talk. If there is
any hope at all, it's that China pays for peace next turn, and Babylon is caught with
all units down in the war vs America in the south. Even then, we have *FOUR* empty
cities and two other powers in the axis of evil that will need to land, then take
a beating, before peace. What's more - war weariness just now kicked in. Our main
cities are all smoking. (They weren't unhappy last round) If our southern tiny
saltpeter city falls, btw, it's the end of muskets and cav.

I'm exceedingly disappointed. Not in the game, which has shown tremendous courage,
but that I got to the end of my 10 turns, not only alive but with the ground
flowing deep with Chinese blood, to have this pulled on us at the end. :cry:
I was hoping that they would have not allied but paid for peace this round, for
yet another chapter in the amazing Defiant saga of rabbit-out-of-a-hat victores :P
It's also rough that our chances of seeing Nationalism, just 33 turns away, are remote.

Save File RBP5 650AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Japan-650ad.zip)

Is good luck an understatement??
Charismeiji

Ouch! I was thinking you should have taken an MPP with Babylon, but I think this is off the table in this game, right?

Got it, I will try to do my best.

Yes, MPP is off the table, as are alliances and embargoes and RoP.

Us: "We don't need no stinkin' help from Baby-Lon!"
Voice of sanity: "Too many vectors!" :rolleyes:

I went back and counted, the tally so far in the war is --
Us-28 kills, China-10 kills. And one of our kills was a Rider army :P
Unfortunately the city count is: 1 to 0.

There is hope, as long as we draw breath...
Charis

2.8:1 is not a good enough kill ratio, Charis. There are times and places to attack and times to wait. I think you attacked too often, without sufficient covering force. I consider anything less than a 3:1 kill ratio a failure, or an indication of extreme lagging in tech (e.g. catapults and mounted warriors vs. cossacks/riflemen).

I saw too many "Attacked with an MDI and won" followed by "Our exposed MDI was killed by a ..." comments for my liking. Smart, careful attacks are critical...overstepping what we can safely defend is suicide.

Nice job on getting mil. trad. first, though. Really, cavalry are very nice (move 3 is important). Ideally, we could continue to build samurai, too, but the game's not set up for that.

And, ouchie! with Babylon attacking, too. That's gonna hurt.

Good luck, Jaxom!

Arathorn

All I can say is wow!! :eek:
Where there's life, there's hope.......but this looks pretty bleak. I look forward to reading how this turns out. If anyone can pull this out, it's the crew playing here. If you guys do somehow pull this out of the bag, it would make RBE2 pale in comparision.
Good luck!!
Matt

@Arathorn - while I prefer a 3:1 ratio as well, if it's a question of MDI attacks now and kills a cav, 4 on 3, or let the cav attack 6 on 2, I attack now and trade the unit. The goal was not to win the war, or even to 'do well', but just one thing - inflict enough pain to get China to pay for peace ASAP.

Is the minimum length for envoy-won't-talk 10 turns? If so I guess we have (at least) 3 more turns until China will talk. It would be nice not to lose another city in that span, but tough.
If China comes to peace it's conceivable, but still miraculous to hold of Babylon. If by the time they talk they won't pay for peace however...

There seems a way to 'hold out' defiantly for as long as we can. Preserve the Army at all costs and get it back to our capital, and make a stand. If it goes to that, they'll never pay for peace - any of the civs. It will become all-war against us, with our capital pillaged down to size 1 permanently. But... if they refuse to attack the army, they can't due any worse. (Well, until they make and use a big arty stack). With them permanently at war, there might be a tech slowing and a 20K shot :P

Jaxom will determine just how bad it is, and if this makes any sense - it basically hinges on the AI's reluctance to hit a fortified full hp army. If however the army gets hurt, they know they can do it and will definitely attack. Even surviving for 33 more turns for nationalism would be something positive to cling to for a moral victory :P In any case, good luck.

Charis

EDIT - Actually, there's a chance for peace that just struck me, but it's extreme. If you go for the army+all units to the capital, abandon all cities rather than let them get captured or razed.
:eek: :hammer: Is that defiant or what?! (It is allowed)
If costs were to cause disbanding or starving, we can go to anarchy or civil revolt. Size 7 bonus might be worth losing some city improvements, if it came down to that.

Why would we be seeing 6 on 2? Don't we have any musketmen? Attack 4 on 3.3 (on flat ground) with a sure defense of 2 on the counter-attack vs. defend 5.4 (fort. musket but should be higher with walls or city bonus) against 6 attack. Add in bombard defense (we do have cannons, right?) and I'll defend my territory until I can attack safely.

It only gets worse attacking cavs on hills, or across rivers. If we have walls or are city-size, the defense of a musket jumps to 7.4 and even an MDI would defend at 3.7, if it came to that.

Now, I don't know the exact situation, and maybe things wouldn't work out that way, but I do know that I've achieved even 4:1 kill ratios fairly frequently, even in the midst of being routed off the planet.

As for time to talk, it varies on a LOT of factors. The further behind in tech you are, the longer it will be before they acknowledge your envoy; the more hurting you put on the faster they will; the more allies they have, the longer they'll put you off. I don't see China coming to the table anytime soon.

We expected a dogpile at some point. This is the point. Can we pull it off? Jaxom's turns will probably be the most critical, but I can easily see a delicate stalemate still in existence in 10 turns for a pass-off (to me, eep!). Abandoning all but the capital essentially admits to capitulation and I would strongly argue against such a move. The AI *will* attack an army, even at full hp, so I'm not even sure doing so would delay things at all. The only real way is to fight really intelligently and hope a few things break our way.

One "time-buying" strategy is to ping their units with artillery but not attack. The AI will retreat its units to heal, but it seems to have a fairly set number of offensive units it "likes" to have and won't always build as many new units when old ones are being retreated for healing for return. It does make the eventual stacks larger, but it can buy you a bit of time (I used this quite successfully in a mano-a-mano deity game where I had horses and saltpeter as my only native resources). Stacks, too, give you the ability to attack without exposing yourself.

Arathorn

Charis: Here I was thinking you would have a quiet turn after the Bab war ended. China and Babs attacking together is back to the "dire...hopeless" stage.

The Babs came to the table after 7 turns, even after I lost Izumo and didn't take any of their cities. I think I lost 5 troops during the war and they probably lost about 20 but granted I was only facing knights vs. samurai while you have cavalry coming at you.

I just wanted to echo what Arathorn said. We played LOTR2 together and what I learned from that game is that you can get 4:1 or even 5:1 kill ratios by using terrain, artillery, and preserving your attackers if at all possible.

The defensive line that I fought on earlier this game, from Edo to Kyoto to Osaka to Satsuma is pretty strong because of the river and Osaka and Satsuma being on hills. Hopefully we can hold that line.

After a tough tour fighting the Chinese, with many friends and troops lost, the sergeant
gazed at what was left of his men. A new draft of men would come from Kyoto soon, but his
unit was sadly under-strength.

One private said "We should attack the Chinese whenever we get the chance. That will teach
them not to mess with the glorious Japanese nation." A corporal looked more thoughtful. He
had lost some good friends on the field, who killed a Chinese cavalry unit, but were then
killed in return by another Chinese cavalry unit. "No," he said "I think we should hole up
in the cities and wait for the Chinese to come to us. We have better defences in the cities
than out in the field." The sergeant cleared his throat, and they both looked at him.

"Well boys, I've been thinking about when to attack and when to defend. It all comes down
to two things (assuming you are full strength), your basic unit strength and your skill level.
What you do is multiply your unit strength by your skill level and compare that to the Chinese
unit strength times their skill level. If you have a 2:1 advantage or more, then attack,
otherwise wait."

"Huh?" said the private. The corporal just looked on with glazed eyes as if he hadn't heard
a thing.

"Let's take an example", said the sergeant, warming up to his subject. "Suppose we have a
veteran cavalry troop fighting a regular musket. Then you multiply the unit strength of the
cavalry (6) times the skill level (4) and compare that to the unit strength if a musket (4)
times the skill level of the musket (3), that is 24 compared to 12. Now defensive unit strengths
are always modified by terrain or man-made structures and you have to take these into account.
But, to keep it simple, lets assume the musket has a defense unit stregth of 4."

"Since it is a 2:1 advantage you should attack. Over time you will win 82% of those battles
for a 4:1 kill ratio. The 2:1 advantage in strength * skill gets converted to a 4:1 advantage
on the field. That's why it's important to only do favorable attacks. If your strength * skill
attack ratio drops to just 1.5:1 then that gets converted to a 2:1 kill ratio on the field, and a
1:1 attack ratio gets converted to a 1:1 kill ratio on the field, so you've got to keep it up
at 2:1."

"Sergeant, I regret to say I failed calculus at the academy, which is why I am not an officer
today. I just can't follow any of this higher math stuff" said the corporal. "Sergeant, I just
point my lance at whoever they tell me to and gallop like hell" said the private. "And besides,"
said the corporal, "what if it isn't 2:1, are you just going to let them waltz around and pillage
everything in sight while you are busy asking the intel guys "Is it 2:1?, is it 2:1?".

"That's where your artillery and defensive positions come in. Aim at units that have suffered
bombardment, or units wounded from attacking cities or other targets. Also some units you have
a 2:1 advantage on right off the bat.

Jaxomeiji enters the palace amidst the dying Chinese cries. A meeting with the generals reveals we have a total of 3 cannons, 4 cavalries, 1 samurai and a fearless samurai army. Our total defensive force is composed of 8 musketman and 3 pikeman. The Chinese still alive in the field are more numerous than this with no fewer than 29 various units in our national territory. The situation is bleak but the Japanese people have a good heart and a strong will, they vow to avenge the massacre of Yokohama.

Furthermore, the head diplomat advise us that our GPT reputation is stained, probably since the razing of Yokohama. Fortunatly, it only affects us receiving GPT for luxury, so we are able to import American furs for 10 GPT. Only the American and the Mongol will talk to us but the Americans will not buy our incense at any price and the Mongol will not sell us a tech at any price.

A galley is disbanded in Edo to complete a musketman on the next turn. Another musket is cash-rushed in Satsuma. The musketman being built in Nagasaki is converted into a cannon, loosing 1 shield in the process. Kyoto and Tokyo also switch to cannons without loosing shields.

Cannons fire away at a Chinese cavalry on a mountain near Tokyo, taking 2 hp off him. An elite cavalry charges a 1hp chinese cavalry and...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_leader3.jpg

Fujiwara considers the situation and decide the most good he can do is to climb on a horse and head back to the battle as a cavalry.



IT: Treacherous Babylon send rifles on our mountains near Nagasaki. They attack Tokyo and loose twice promoting our musketman to elite. Another cavalry attempts to take out our musket on the iron and retreats.

Chinese rifles take control of the high grounds near Osaka and Nagoya. A couple of Chinese cavalry press the attack on Tokyo but fall to our brave Tojo who gains a promotion for his effort. A reinforcement of 2 muskets and 1 samurai is destroyed on its way to Nagoya but not before taking down a MedInf, a longbow and 2 cavalries, all from China.

660 AD Our cannons fire away and hurt a cavalry and a rifleman near Tokyo. The rifleman is easily taken out as well as a badly wounded Babylon cavalry. Hirohito and Tojo both promote to elite after removing a musket and archer who were flanking Nagoya. Two Chinese workers are sacrificed to build outposts near Tokyo and Satsuma, we need better intel from Babylonia.

IT: A Babylon cavalry ignores all our workers and attempts to capture Satsuma. He dies to a valiant musketman who is left with a single hp. A chinese cavalry is repelled in Nagoya, also leaving a 1hp musketman. No other attacks follow but a big stack is moving on Kyoto.

670 AD Egypt is ready to talk, Cleopatra wants 7 GPT for peace. Come and get some Cleo! Mao still won't take my calls, hopefully he will on the next turn. A pair of longbowman are dispatched near Nagoya by Hirohito and Tojo. Tojo is in such great shape that...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_leader4.jpg

Tojo also jumps on a horse to join the battle. Our healed up samurai army leaves for China to do some pillaging.

IT: Mongolia signs a trade embargo against us with both Babylon and China. Babylon moves many rifleman through our land but there is no attacks. China launch a huge attack on Nagoya. Five cavalries are repelled but a lucky MedInf takes out one of our musketman. We also loose a regular musketman in Osaka to a chinese cavalry. Since Kyoto is now defended, the stack moves toward Osaka.

680 AD Our cavalries take out a chinese pikeman and 3 cavalries. A musketman is rushed in Osaka.

IT: Babylon cavalries show up, they kill our musketman on iron mountain. More chinese cavalries attack Nagoya. We kill two and repel one but we loose another musketman. An archer dies trying to take Osaka, the stack pillage and fortifies.

690 AD Still no answer from China, Mao really wants us dead. A chinese pikeman, MedInf and rifleman are taken out between Nagoya and Edo.

IT: We loose an elite musketman in Tokyo to a lucky Babylonian cavalry. Just by walking on them, Babylonian troops remove our outposts, not worth the trouble at all. More chinese cavalries attack Nagoya and are repelled but we loose another elite musketman. Many chinese cavalries are now flanking Nagasaki.

700 AD Dringgggg! Hello, Mao? Finally I get through to you. Man! What are you doing? You are killing us! Ok I razed one of yours, you razed one of mine, what about we call it even?


We now have 8 musketman, 2 pikeman and one wandering samurai army to defend ourselves. We have 6 cavalries and 5 cannons to deliver a message. I stop here because if I continue, I pay China for peace in order to protect Japanese civilians. Of course that would be against the rules of this game, but Jaxomeiji can't stand the bloodshed anymore. We have lost no ground to China, besides Yokohama which we gained on them earlier, so I think it still would be a Nationalist stand to make peace now, just not so defiant anymore. I moved 3 chinese workers to the capitol just for this occasion, China wants them along with 274 golds and 1 GPT for peace. We can still do a little damage before signing a peace treaty but not that much. No troops were moved on the last turn, so the next leader has many options before sitting at the table.

Babylon won't talk and Hammu's troops are in a position to hurt us. Korea and Egypt each want around 150 golds for peace, but they can't hurt us anytime soon.

Here is the save at the end of 700 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_ad0700.zip)

Jaxom, super job - dodging a bullet. (Alas, it's raining bullets out there!)

Two leaders, woo!!! I was hoping for one or two for a cav and/or rifle army. (What does 'jump on horse' mean? Did you make an army?)

Regarding the last comment on making peace with China...
I must agree with your logic, and having extremely proudly fought the Chinese to a draw, lack of peace will lead to enormous Japanese bloodshed by a two front war. Just bringing him to the table was quite a battle, given his desire to see us wiped out and the number of allies he has. I'm somewhat conflicted by the pain we're going through vs trying to abide the rules, and feeling responsible for that pain. I would prefer each leader play his hardest and abide by the spirit of the rules rather than see valiantry go down the tubes adhering to the letter. Suffice it to say that you would have gotten no :nono: from me if 'Jaxomeiji' thought it best for the Defiant Nationalists of Japan. Nor would I fault the next leader for doing so. Arathorn spoke of the game making it back to him in a delicate situation, and he's right! (I assume from the comment he'll be able to take it now, perhaps with a slight delay if he needs to get caught up on something). If he thinks it improper to take peace (stressing the 'defiant' aspect more), that's fine, but if he thinks it best to focus on Babylon and return vengence on China later...

Keep in mind a few things if the latter - see if China has any MPP still going on. I think there is one with Egypt but if we have no plan to hit them outside of our territory that won't matter. It would be horrific to dictate terms of peace then see the evil Chinese declare war again immediately. They have so many forces in our territory too, be sure to allow them sufficient time to withdraw and not be suicidal by forcing a boot out while we're still at war with other countries. With regard to Babylon, I wonder if an army on a hill next to one of their cities would entice them to pull their offensive units back?

If the former, I don't know what value the AI places on losing units when calculating a peace cost, but iirc from other games, once they get to the talking stage, each additional unit they lose is significant. Killing 10-15 more than are killed may in fact bring that number down to zero, unfortunately I'm not sure of the exact nature. Even pillaging might help, although I doubt we have units to spare to do that.

In summary, great job getting us to this point Jaxom, and to our next leader - act in character and do what you think is best and most appropriate for the Defiant Nationalists of Japan!

Good luck!
Charis

Jump on horse means I rushed a cavalry, yes, you have read it right :( We are so short on units, production capacity and cash that I couldn't see the use of an army at the time. If we do manage to buildup a little more units, than an army might be called for.

When our samurai army moved near a chinese city to pillage, China did not pull back any cavalries from the front and did not even send reinforcement to that city. However, China is many times stronger than Babylon, so maybe the army would have an effect on Hammurabi.

BTW, those 5 turns were nerve-recking, don't pick up the game if you are already stressed out :)

Jaxom: Congratulations! I am amazed that you have survived for 5 turns without losing any cities. I assumed that you meant the 2 GLs were turned into cavalry. When the pressure is intense you need units.

In the following screenshot at 700AD I see 17 Bab attackers and 16 Chinese attackers. We have exactly 2 pikes, 8 muskets, 6 cavalry, 3 samurai in an army, and 5 cannons. It is an unbelievably bad situation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-700ad.jpg

Well, the Ara-Meiji do not if the situation is truly hopeless or not, but you can expect us to NEVER cave to any demands for peace, even if it means the end of the Japanese people.

"What good is it to live, if you must live in shame? It is better to die, still a man, that to live as somebody's whipping boy. We will fight to the last man, woman, and child against the evils of the world. Peace on their terms? We utterly reject it!"

So went the most rousing portion of the Ara-Meiji's speech, on return to power. The last time the Ara-Meiji had been called upon, a kidney stone, stomach flus, and fevers prevented them from answering. Now, however, the Ara-Meiji stand ready to defend the honor of the people of Japan!!!

------------------
(out of character)

Ever try to care for two healthy children while losing all food/water out both ends? And getting calls from a distraught wife from the emergency room? Add in a mother-in-law who came to help and got sick, too, leaving me in charge of sick adults and kids, one of whom got up with a 103.7 temp the next day, and you have a recipe for misery. Did I mention my wife is still nursing and wasn't around a whole lot? UGH! But that was last week....

Not sure if I'll get to this tonight or tomorrow night, but I should be well under my 48 hours. And I'm not sure if I'll do 5 or 10; depends on how things go.

I will be following the defiant variant, even if it means losing. As far as I'm concerned, I signed on to be defiant, come win or loss. I, personally, would rather lose than change the rules mid-way through. I'm not sure how feasible a defiant nation on deity is ('pelago map might make it easier), but I do know that we won't find out unless we try. I also know that I've probably learned more from games I've lost than from those I've won. One of the points of this game, as I see it, is to find out how well one can fight deity opponents when under the gun. If we cave, we'll never know. Now, I don't really see a win anywhere here easily, but I do see the opportunity for a bunch of moral victories -- staying true to defiant, living to the last, learning how to play better nice time (if there is a next time), etc.

Now, it's very possible I'll pass off a game with only a couple cities still standing. Que sera sera. I know I/we can beat deity normally; can we beat it defiantly? Can I beat it with cost at 30%, even with super-jags? I am needing to stretch my limits to continue enjoying the game. Everybody's mileage may vary, of course.

Arathorn

P.S. Excellent job, Jaxom. I think the sam army in China is not a good idea, though. He'll be recalled post-haste for me.

P.P.S. An army of muskets makes a really nice defensive pillar, since you only very rarely lose any troops to an attack. Of course, more units are sometimes more important!

Arathorn,

Defiant is is :P I went back and forth mentally about making my last post. I very much thought you would respond just as you did. I wanted to leave the choice open in case the players consensus was that they were fed up with the rules. I would prefer to play defiantly and lose than to switch, but I didn't want to make everyone miserable. Architect's handoff post when the game went south for the first time sounded frustrated with the rules (perhaps there were just matter-of-fact about the gravity of the situation). Add in Jaxom's comment of "I stop here because if I continue, I pay China for peace in order to protect Japanese civilians." and the RL torture you're going through, I was feeling somewhat distraught -- not from the game situation but not wanting to burn my teammates. (You guys are all doing admirably well!)

Defiant to the end then - the people of Japan have spoken! :hammer:
Even if they slaughter every living creature at Satsuma, fry every fish in Pisces, and spread the entrails of Charismeiji over the blood-stained and scorched earth surrouning Nagoya!! :eek:

Charis

P.S. Ouch!! I do hope that you, your little ones and mother-in-law get better soon and the misery ends. My prayers are with you guys.

PPS No problem on the timing, don't rush yourself. And for all players a note - don't be dejected if the fall of cities happens on your watch, it's a rough situation. Then again it's definitely not hopeless. :cool:

I was never frustrated with the rules. I was frustrated with the RNG.. :)

I'm with Arathorn, let's lose this game if that's what it takes to stick to the rules.

I was never frustrated with the rules. I was frustrated with the RNG.. :hammer:

Ah, good!!
Charis

I would post this in the Korean thread, but since that game is long over, I thought I'd post it here where Charis and Jaxom would be sure to see it.

I had a heart attack a few hours after my last post in these forums some 6-7 weeks ago (in the middle of my turn in fact), and I just recently got back home. I'm sorry I made everyone wait so long without any word, but to be honest, my only thoughts at the time were staying alive.

Nedless to say, I won't exactly feel up to playing for a while, and I have a lot of things to catch up on as I start feeling up to it anyhow, but I'll be following the RB crew's games.

Never give up hope. I took a look at the save, and I think this game is still winable :).

Arathorn, I sent the army in China to relieve some of the pressure from Nagoya, it turns out Mao is not afraid of our army. The problem is, the communication line between Nagasaki and Nagoya is too long, the army would have taken more than a turn to move from one to the other. I realise now that I should have abandonned Nagasaki and use the army to make a six tile road between Nagoya and Tokyo. I believe we can still defend Osaka-Tokyo-Nagoya.

On the other hand, abandonning a city is a tactic I consider slightly exploitative, and totally against the Defiant spirit. If you are going to abandon cities to avoid having to pay for peace, you might as well pay by returning captured chinese citizens. If you manage to hold the line long enough to abandon Nagasaki by rushing workers out, then it follows the rules and fits quite well with the spirit.

By the way, there is no way we can win this game from this point, even if we abandon the rules. The moral victory would be to survive with our national territory intact. Abandonning all cities and turtle up in Kyoto would insure our survival, but I would not consider that a moral victory.

P.S. Tough luck on RL Arathorn, I hope everybody gets well quickly.

Edit: Ouch! Todd, I figured something was very wrong on your side when you left the game hanging, but I tought it was computer related. Get well and stay out of nerve-wreaking SGs :)

Todd, you will be in my prayers. I'm glad you are home, and relatively OK (as OK as one can be after a heart attack, I hope!). I wasn't part of the Korean game, but I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say that it's good that things like this weren't occupying your thoughts. Thanks for the news and good luck with everything!

I disagree with Jaxom, though, about the winnability of our situation. I am 95% confident that this game could be won by abandoning the defiant spirit. Peace with China and refound by the luxury. Stalemate Babylon. Use alliances to get the others fighting and use whatever means to catch up in tech -- we're barely down, you can really catch up a ton in either the IA or the Middle Ages, when you need to. Heck, I feel reasonably confident that even abandoning defiance for ~30 turns to get to artillery and rails (provided we have at least one of rubber and coal) would be enough to put us into safety.

We'll see how it turns out. Tokyo appears to me to be in the most danger, from the screenshot. Satsuma's gonna be brutally hard to defend, too. We'll see.

Arathorn

Eeeeep!!! Marshall, that's a rough one. I'm glad your ok and hope you can recuperate with a nice peaceful game like tiddliwinks ;)

For goodness sake don't follow this thread too closely, it could be dangerous to your health! :hammer:

I figured your disappearnce was a NotGoodThing, but didn't know what. Thanks for dropping in and saying hi :P

@Jaxom - there are many levels of relative victory and defeat here. Making it thus far alive is one. Reaching Nationalism and getting a draft is one. If we EVER get back to peace (ie all foes end up agreeing to peace for free) it will be one. Maintaining our national territorry is a good one. By some miracle recapturing any lost Japanese cities would be a major victory. Turtling and being alive when the game is over is one, but it's the smallest one short of dying now.

Abandonment by getting the workers out would be nice. I don't see abandonment as wholy opposite the intent. It's not defiant in the sense of 'you can't push us around', but it's very much defiant and nationalistic to go to your death rather than have a city be ruled by another nation. It would truly have to be a case of impossible defense of the city, not just bad odds. (Barracks gone, 1hp defender left, 4 cav next door, and the road coming in to the city pillaged so no reinforcments :P ) That said, Nagasaki would be one I would be least willing to abandon, as the home of our Forbidden Palace (iirc).

Aramejii will do his people proud, one way or the other.

Charis

Todd: I am so sorry to hear what happened to you. I hope you feel much better and my prayers go with you to get even better in the future. Only read this SG when you're feeling strong :) .

I'm glad that everyone is in favor of not changing the rules now. We should finish the way we started. It looks bleak now, but we all knew it could turn out this way when the game started.

On abandoning cities, if it helps the empire survive then I wouldn't object to it. There is something noble about a city sacrificing itself to uphold the Defiant National ideals (of course only when absolutely necessary). "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Better to live and die a Defiant Japanese then live under the thumb of the Chinese or Babs.

Edit: PS Charis: I wouldn't worry too much about the FP. With the amount of fighting and GLs we've been getting I think we could rebuild it pretty fast.

Edit Edit: Barron: Just shows that I haven't ever lost my FP before :sad:. That's really too bad because Nagasaki is one of our most vulnerable cities right now.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, cpp1, but the forbidden palace is not rebuildable. You get to build it once.

Well for a change this game, let me be the bearer of good news. You very certainly *can* rebuild a forbidden palace. For proof see RBE5. We lost our FP in 750 AD (due to a flip!!!), and rebuilt it (rushed it) around 1080AD in Entremont.

You can't have more than one obviously, but if you lose it, you can rebuild it.

oh no, now he'll need an "EDIT EDIT EDIT" !

Charis



EDIT - @Architect below - should be no problem. No one should miss out getting a 'chance' with our current situation!! :king:

It is very unlikely I will be able to play my turn this weekend. The earliest I can for sure play is next Wed. So hopefully I can just jump in a grab it then if that's ok with you guys.

Oops. I was under the impression it was a wonder (a small wonder) and you only get one bite at those, or am I wrong again?

The Arameiji came to power again in 700 AD. A multitude of forces were arrayed against them, but they were confident in the power and fortitude of the Japanese people. "Prevail we must, whether it be in a way the world understands or not!"

The opening salvoes were fine, with 2 Chinese cavalry falling, a Chinese MDI falling, and no initial Japanese casualties. Finding the cavalry fortified in Nagoya was, however, quite annoying. If you're going to fortify offensive troops (and I undersand why you did), please let the next person know.

In the years before 710 AD, however, things went quickly downhill. A 4-attack Babylonian rifleman attacked Tokyo across a river, into walls, killing a 8.55-defense 5 hp cavalry without taking a scratch (at very roughly, 7000:1 against). A 3 hp cav then attacks, not across a river, defeating our 3 hp cav, taking 2 damage (6 attack vs. 7.05 defense. Reasonably likely).

A Chinese cavalry dies to a Nagoya musket.

Then, the focus shifts to Nagasaki. A cav retreats. The second dies. The third razes Nagasaki. Of course, then our cities go into disorder from a HUGE increase in war weariness *and* the loss of Bach's cathedral (only one disorder (Kyoto, of course) but the need for entertainers crippled any production hopes).

In 710 AD, a large number of cannons fire, doing basically nothing. A Chinese galley is sunk, hopefully with troops aboard. A brave musketman attacks across a river and takes Tokyo from a hp cavalry. (Our 2 attack against 8.55 defense -- about a 1 in 5 chance to win with no scratch, but we took 1 hp. Reasonable.)

Our samurai army kills a cav in the open (who had 1 hp left) and makes it to Tokyo to help defend. A couple Chinese cavs by Nagoya are killed, with no losses on our side and all cavs "safely" behind walls.

Betwen turns, a Babylonian super-rifle (AGAIN) with a 4-attack value does 7 hp damage to our samurai army (defense 11.4), again attacking across a river. Odds say we do about 3 damage for each one we take, not losing 2 to each one we do. UGH! Still in Tokyo, an MDI attacks (not across the river), killing our musket there with, taking 1 hp damage (4 attack vs. 8.4 defense). Another rifle (not across a river) does the 1 hp necessary to kill off the sam army and we lose Tokyo again.

Nagoyo's musket retreats one cav (-1 hp) and kills a second (-2 hp). WW again sky-rockets and we get more disorder this turn (Kyoto still and now Osaka is rioting, too).

770 AD arrives with the news that our elite cavalry lost 4 hp to take the final hp from a Chinese cavalry in our grasslands. SIGH! Cannons fire and the Japanese people rise up in revolt (lux at 60% still wasn't enough to fight WW).

Friendly Lincoln appears between turns to renegotiate our dyes deal. Instead of giving him 38 gpt, we now give our WM and 11 gold. We're so small, luxes are CHEAP!

Satsuma retreats a Bab cav.

Nagoya musket retreats a cav taking no damage, then dies to the 2nd, doing 1 damage. An elite cav in Nagoya kills an attacking cav, losing 4 hp in the process. Second doesn't fair as well, doing only 1 damage before dying. Another Chinese cav comes and kills a 1 hp cav in Nagoya. A final cav retreats, after doing one damage to Kyoto's musket defender.

730 AD and things are looking grim. Nagoya's improvements are sold and everybody is shipped from there to Edo. Nagoya is then abandoned. Our elite cavs kill a cav and a knight in our territory, one retreating to our empty backlines, as a Bab ship appeared back there last turn.

Kyoto's brave musketman killed the first cav attacker (across a river) and promoted. The full-hp elite cav in Kyoto did 1 damage to the second attacking cav, and the musket did 0 to the third. YUCK! All across the river, of course. Not that it mattered. At least Satsuma's musket did well, killing an attacking cav.

By 740 AD, we had no units left to attack with. Cannons still fired, but it was hopeless. Peace was not an option, as no one was willing to acknowledge our superior position and pay us for it. "Their loss" vowed the Arameiji family. Both China and Babylon had to be eliminated for their heinous acts of razing Japanese cities.

The Babs took this turn off, leaving the attacking to the Chinese. Edo's musket lost 1 hp killing the first attacking cav, earning a promotion to elite. The second cav did no damage. The third cav did 2 damage and retreated. The fourthcav, however, successfully crossed the river (like all the other attackers) and captured Edo. A defending cav at Kago kills a vet attacker, only losing 2 hp in the process.

750 sees 5 proud, defiant Japanese cities refusing to kowtow to any other nation.

The Babs lessen their number by 1, losing one rifle killing Kagoshima's elite cav defender behind walls (no river this time). The Chinese take a second city (Osaka), at the cost of an elites cav and a vet cav, killing a vet musket, a regular musket, and a vet MDI. Osaka is razed, after an attack by 7 cavs total.

Pisces Hill Station, though, appears to be interesting. Who will win the race here?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-takeanumber.jpg

The Japanese's last successful attack was in 760 AD, when our galley sank the Egyptian galley near PHS.

Egypt responds by winning the race and capturing PHS.

Satsuma's musket forces one attacking cav to retreat, before succumbing to the second. Only Shimoneski, our proud saltpeter city in the south, remains.

The brave galley captain of 760 is not as lucky in 770. Apparently, galleons are much tougher foes than galleys. He did knock it down to 1 hp, though. "NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!" is heard echoing from Shimoneski, which I should've renamed Alamo.

I offer China a very generous peace deal, which he won't accept for some reason....
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-chinanoaccept.jpg

770's off-turn, however, sees only a vet longbow dying to a promoting pike in Shimo. Maybe we can hold them off!

Well, we did force two cavs to retreat and killed a third, but....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-defeat.jpg

A picture of deity expansion and why it's so hard so early...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-waybehind.jpg

Our final score is Meiji the Meek.

My final tally...
China, 20 casualties.
Babylon, 8 casualties.
Egypt, 1 casualty.
Japan, 18 casualties.

Stop the two demonic Babylonian riflemen attacks across rivers into Tokyo and I'll have better numbers there. Oh well... The PRNG giveth and the PRNG taketh away.

What's next?

Arathorn

Next time on an island. For sure.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Congrats from a lurker and devoted fan. It was a moral victory at least! You stuck to your guns....

It was an extremely brave effort, gentlemen. Congrats on fighting hard, and sticking to your guns despite extreme hardship. I think everyone got a chance to face extreme odds, and right until the end we held them off. (Sancho, tnx for de-lurking!)

If China thought they had an easy pushover, they were wrong. They got this instead: :wallbash:

That was a great screenshot of PSH, Arathorn :lol:
By any chance do you have the save file from the turn before the end, I want to get this in my game list. If not, it should be pretty easy to duplicate the loss :P

The game was interesting, certainly. If any thought it wouldn't be so bad, fooled ya! For those wanting this challenge but less pain, I would recommend doing it on Emperor, where it's 'fun'. For those thinking it TOO hard, remember this was a 'baby step' toward 'Always War'. And seeing how it went, I'm less certain the latter is doable outside of extreme conditions. That expansion graph Arathorn post is... sick.

Jaxom, you and I now share a mark of infamy. The only guys around who have lost *two* succesion games!! ;)
cpp1, sheesh, what an intro to the Realms Beyond SG's. You did a super job! I look forward to another game together!

I'll be starting a new SG this weekend btw, an offshoot of OW.
Charis

Well, we fought the good fight and stuck to our principles. As far as I know this is the first SG that has been defeated militarily. The combination of Deity, refusing all tribute demands, not paying for peace, and no MPPs, Alliances, ROPs, or Embargoes appears to be very difficult to pull off. It's feels like always war on Deity except we had occasional periods of peace.

During my 4 stints as meiji (35 game turns) I had 3 game turns of peace and 32 game turns of war. It was a rough game but I think we're finding the boundaries of what is possible.

Thanks Charis, Arathorn, Architect, and Jaxom for playing in a wonderful game :goodjob: and to all the lurkers (Todd - rest up and get well) for cheering us on :band: .

Edit: Charis: Thanks, I really enjoyed this game and look forward to playing again with you soon.

Great game guys! Sad to see you lost, but a valiant effort nonetheless. Another attempt on archipelago could work, perhaps with the Vikings. If you start on your own land mass, that'd be *much* easier, in fact, I'd be inclined to suggest more Deity restrictions. Maybe something about how if you settle on a virgin land mass, you consider the entire land mass 'yours' and will attack any civilization that attempts to settle on it as well.

-Sirp.

Well this was quite a challenge but I think we could beat this game and other games like it by playing a military style from the start.

I would suggest:

1. Build 4+ warriors in each city.
2. Build cities in an ICS like fashion no more than 2 apart.
3. Build troops to secure the homeland preventing the AI from entering our lands
4. Use Monarchy for better troops support with little or no infrastructure until the homeland is secure.

We would probably get way behind in tech but we could still catch up just much later in the game.

I'm interested in playing this style again or trying something similar but as challenging.

I think Architect is right, the stance needs to be more warlike. Consider it as like Always war but we can make deals, buy tech and extort tech when we win a war, but expect war is coming. (Rather than try to build with just a little extra military)

While your own land mass would be easier, it nearly ruins the Defiant nature of the game, imo. Putting an end to Deity-ROP(TM) is a key point here :p Both this game and always war have a wholly different flavor with your own island (that's not to say they wouldn't be fun or challenging)

Charis

Sorry about the final save. It can be found at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-finalsave.zip

It's a save from 770 sometime. I don't think it matters much, at that point, what you do....

Arathorn

Jaxom, you and I now share a mark of infamy. The only guys around who have lost *two* succesion games!!

Don't worry, you will be in good company soon enough (CG4).:blush:

What's that? Who're you calling orange, apple-breath?!