RBP5 - Defiant Nationalists of Japan (Succession game)

A 'Defiant' civ takes "no guff!", never giving in to tribute demands or paying for peace
The Nationalist in Civilization has a supreme view of itself as a nation, putting its own
interests first above all others, shuns globalism, and has a keen view of independence.

The proposed "Defiant Nationalist" rules are:
* No giving in to tribute, ever. That includes never paying for peace.
* May never sign mutual protection pacts, military alliance, right of passage, or embargo
* Any troops in your land must be told to leave immediately
* No capturing of foreign cities or demanding cities in tribute (flips/propaganda are ok)
* No qualms about dastardly actions in the best interest of our nation
(e.g., steal tech, military blockades, wars of aggression, neutral pillaging...)
* If an AI razes one of your cities, it must be eliminated (timeframe up to you)
* Foreign workers may never be added to your cities.
* Nationalism should be learned ASAP upon entering Industrial era
* Every city size 7+ at this time, and subsequent cities reaching size 7 for first time,
MUST draft a unit for defense of that city. (So eventually, a conscript in every 'city')

Other comments to set the spirit of the game...

- International reputation is simply not a high priority, although treaties are not
broken for simply monetary gain. Under the rules described though, I can't see
getting in situations where you would have to cancel a treaty early,
since you have no RoP, no alliances, tell troops to leave rather than openly
declare, and have 20 turns to 'prepare' for required action. The above list of
rules is longer than I like, but I hope the "spirit" of the game is quite clear.
- If a city you found is captured, you should not rest until that city is recovered
Peace before that occurs is an option, but do not forsake the city - work to get it back!
- Be careful about AI expanding their borders 'onto' your units. If the expansion is into
your territory this is certainly 'guff' and you would refuse, taking the annexation
of your space as an act of war. Alas, the international community will see it as a sneak
attack. There is precedence for not caring what others say about sneak attacks!
- Any govt form is allowed, but if the people start whining about weariness, take no
guff from them either! Strike down the insurrection and change to become an
Emperor (Monarchy) or an Ultranationalist Government (Communism)
- Refusing tribute and having no alliances is going to make for a MAJOR challenge -
expect at least one "dogpile" on us, which won't be pretty :)

Game details for RBP5:
- Difficulty: Deity
- Civ: Japan, led by Emperor Meiji
- Map: Standard, medium pangaea, random attributes, restless barbarians. No respawn.
- Foes: Mostly random, with a few foes traditional to Meiji era
- Victory conditions for player: cultural, space, domination, conquest.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-StartMap.jpg

With starting tile right on a river, with game and several bonus grasslands nearby,
and nice combo of forests, grass and hills, this looks like a pretty decent start.

Comments on civ choice. I wanted a military civ, preferably a fast UU, but
one that comes fairly early, and is sturdy. On Emperor diff I probably like
Rome as the Legionaries will do well, and last quite a while, but on Deity,
you're rather likely to see things fly into early Middle Ages, and you need
something that is useful throughout that era. Combine these, add in religious
trait for cheap temples and culture to keep foes nicer, and Japan is a great
choice. Plus, they have a historical nationalistic bent that fits well. So
much so I looked for an alternate, later era leader, and Meiji seemed appropriate.
Emperor Meiji toppled the Tokugawa shogunate and led Japan through unparalleled
modernization and growth, with a strong underlying nationalistic fervor.

Acknowledgements: Thanks to Iteen and ukrneal for their ideals on a Defiant
game and a nationalism-focused game. These, along with some ideas and playtesting
of my own led to this variant. Thanks also to cpp1 and others who helped shape the
rules for this game. I hope it works well!

Roster:
Arathorn
Architect
cpp1
Charis
Semi-open slot (Urugharakh will fill if needed; deity experience is a must)

First player should take up to 40 turns, second player 20, then 10 after that.
(This is a schedule I normally use for peaceful games. If we go to war real early
be prepared to adjust) We, uniquely, start out with wheel and horse knowledge.
Finding out where iron is seems important, as it's needed for our UU (and swords).

Save File RBP5-Japan-bc4000.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Japan-bc4000.zip)

Be careful, and have fun :)
Charis

PS - I generated the map to be able to check for a 'dud' by playing through
a few turns. It turns out the first map seems fine, so I quickly stopped and
we'll go with that. (Nevertheless, I'll go last in the order and make no early
comments!)

Interesting variant, but far too tough for me. Perhaps in the future. BTW Charis... I've seen some claim that the step from regent to monarch is the hardest. How about the step from monarch to emperor as I feel I'm ready for that pretty soon?

Good luck on the game. I'll be watching. I have a feel it'll be...hmmm.... interesting :)

Umm...Charis? Is there an order inherent in that roster list? It looks alphabetical (or close enough)...you're not listed last, and I'm a bit confused. Do you want me to take the first slot?

@Harlequin: I'm not Charis, but I found the step from Emperor to Deity to be the hardest. I don' t think the Monarch->Emperor jump is very hard (but I'm a bit biased, as I jumped from Regeant to Emperor, back in the early days....)

Arathorn

Arathorn the order was as intended, go ahead and start :P
I'm going last because I played a few turns to verify non-dud start.

Chances of remaining 3 being alphabetical... 1 in 6, not so bad.

Two general comments based on the game rules. First you have a good idea from experience about 'when' we'll get our first tribute demand. The difference here from other deity games is that we'll tell them to shove and and we'll be in a war. The second important difference is that when they march through our lands there will be no "DeityROP(TM)". We'll tell them to take a hike. They might, or... they might not. Each player will have to consider the 'shape' of our territory, and whether we invite other civs to wander all over it, or can we (should we?) present a bounded non-convex surface. Oops, that's using Arathorn's language - I mean: we should consider the implications of founding a city that makes our borders "jut out" in a region where the AI will naturally walk through it to get to the other side. Finally, although we won't start with immediate war, we really don't get to 'pick' the timing of it, and if we try a farmer's gambit the game will be over in the blink of an eye. It will need a careful balance of expansion (for power and for resources) and military preparedness.

I can't much comment on the Regent-Monarch transition, but from the stats it doesn't seem like it really should be that bad. I also think Emp->Deity was definitely hardest. Monarch to Emp is really tough because of the very quick unhappiness, but I think going up to Emperor the game feels like it's moderately "harder" with each step up. But Deity feels like it's a totally new game. (And it is) Other steps leave you yelling "Ouch!!", but that last step leaves you crying "Mommy!!". If you go to a strategy forum and see what lower difficulty strats are being suggested, they tend to work across the board up to Emperor (with Emp itself seeing a few strats not work 'so well'). But very few of the strats or tips given for non-deity carry over to deity.

If you're thinking about stepping up from Monarch to Emperor, go for it! When not done prematurely that's a very fun and satisfying step up. There's a LOT of games in these forums now that describe tough Monarch and Emperor games, including when the LK series and the RB series made that transition, so you can probably see a lot of comments there on what's different.

Good luck :p
Charis

want to play but... must not overcommit, must not...

want to play but... must not overcommit, must not...

You're a smarter man than I, Gothmog!! :lol:

Hmm... in the interest of having another person curse my challenges... what if you and Urugharakh alternated turns, as you both are interested but rightfully concerned about committment?!??! Time required would be 1/2 of an SG.

:yeah:

Charis
(PS don't construe that as pressure of any kind, I truly don't want to see anyone (else) getting burned out on civ right now!)

It's really not an issue of getting burned out. Due to my currently hectic RL I just can't get enough! I'm in two SG's right now and I don't want to slow either down, nor this one. I'm sure you'll get lots of interest for that last spot. But if you don't by next week I'll see what I can do about overcommiting myself.

This should be a good read, can't wait until you guys start it.

I'm not sure if I'll get to this one tonight or not. I've got Menagerie to finish up first, but health is starting to creep back into the younger one's system, so there's a chance I'll be human enough to get to this one, too, tonight. If not tonight, almost assuredly tomorrow night. (And here I was hoping to squeeze in an RBP3 turn, those are MY kinda odds, there.)

Arathorn

Another Charis SG... now if there was an emperor one.. I'd probably join. I've been in a couple of Sulla's monarchy succession games almost a year ago.

Arathorn, I have a feeling RBP3 will still be there when you're free - the situation is dire and folks are a bit tentative about picking it up. And it does sound up your alley :)

Chieftess, I'll have a slot for you next Emperor game. After this deity warmongering trio I'm almost certain to want to chill out somewhat for the next SG!

Thank you to lurkers and well wishers, it's nice to know when there are readers. I'll try to add more "story" from time to time as a result :p

Charis

At long last, the people of Meiji begin their striving to become a strong people, a people filled with a sense of duty, a sense of self, and a sense of pride in their nation.

In 4000 BC, lo those long years ago, the first settler of the Japanese people formed Kyoto, a beacom of what the nations should understand to be the first of many cities from people who take no guff.

After a mere 500 years, an exploring Japanese warrior met a warrior from another band, a band calling themselves Babylonians, only a short walk to the north. These people are quite reasonable, giving up a work crew and 10 gold, merely for knowledge of how to build circular objects.

A mere 200 years later, the people of Mao were met, also ignorant of the ways of a circle. They give up knowledge of pointy sticks, food storage (which we'd nearly figured out ourselves), a worker, and 4 gold for such knowledge. Had our sages known such people were so near, we could have waited before trading with Hammurabi. Alas, foresight is never as clear as hindsight.

Later that year, Pottery and 42 gold found its way to the Babylonian people for the secrets of training warriors, both in general, and with weapons that can travel a distance. This code will surely be useful to such a proud people.

3000 BC saw the clearing of the forest near the game. This sped the completion of a granary and gave one high-food square so that our people may grow strong.

By 2470 BC, the Japanese people had expanded to a second city, in the north, near a herd of wild horses. This city was built on a hill for defense, guarded by a brave, proud warrior. The barbarians in the area thought little of his skill, attacking and killing him, raping 57 gold from the Japanese people. For such a proud people, we do not fight against barbarians well, as with that battle, we have now lost two units to barbs, having down a total of 1 hp damage against them.

We also order out a Chinese warrior, who stepped into our area. Granted, he killed a barbarian who would've pillaged us more, but such incursions are not to be tolerated. Mao, surprisingly, agreed, when he had a warrior next to an undefended city, and could easily have destroyed our fledgling nation.

2390 was a year of trades, where Meiji sent out a number of emissaries bearing gifts of gold, to minimize our treasury so that sacking barbarians would not get much. 25 gold and a promise of another 100 over the next 20 turns convinced the Babylonians to teach us their mystical ways of worship. This knowledge, one gold and another 20 over the next few hundred years convinced Mao to teach us the art of castle building, as well as anything else our newly masons guild can devise. Hence, the barbs only got one gold from the sack of our cities.

In 2310, Meiji I was finally growing old. A settler was due from Kyoto soon, and may head west to garner some incense from the hills there. Kyoto requires very special care, as 4+2+4=10, as does 3+3+4, but always 4 food should be achieved the last turn before growth, to maximize the governor's shields upon growth. 9+11=20, so that many units can be formed between settlers. I recommend a warrior (with 3 extra food), then a spear/archer, before starting the next settler.

VERY soon, however, we will need to stop expanding and start creating units, as war is on the horizon. Kyoto has a barracks to prepare for such eventuality.

Save at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-2150bc.zip

Arathorn

PS No map as we don't have map-making yet! :p That, and I forgot to print one. :o

Our glorious nation!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-2150bc.jpg

2110BC(0) - I am proud. Proud to be a Japanese citizen. Proud to be the leader of our great Japanese Nation. Proud to lead us to glory! Kyoto is indeed a micromanager's paradise and I will do my best to follow the wise words of Arathorn.

IT: The chinese already found near the incense. Bastards. I'm going to cultural push them.

2070BC(1) - We enact revenge upon the barbarians and find 25 of our stolen gold.

IT: Babs start the Oracle.

2030BC(2) - We meet the Americans.

1990BC(3) - We found Tokyo two squares from the Chengdu. I defy the chinese agression on rightful Japanese lands.

1950BC(4) - ...

1910BC(5) - The russians and babs are at war.

IT: The babs demand 20g tribute and I tell them to stuff it. They declare war!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5defybabs.jpg

A warrior defends against a bowmen.

1870BC(6) - I see no less than 5 Bowmen moving towards our borders. I veto temple in Osaka for a barracks.

1830BC(7) - Trying to regroup forces and defend our cities while archers build.

1790BC(8) - Edo is founded south of Kyoto

1750BC(9) - Barracks complete in Osaka.

IT: We are sold contact to Korea and they offer to sell us contact to the egyptians. I swing alphabet, iron working, horseback riding for contact with the chinese, russians, and babs.. Probably the only chance I would have had to sell them.

1725BC(10) - We have Iron in our borders just north of Osaka in the mountains.

1700BC(11) - There are 3 bowmen in sight of our lands. We have 2 archers, 2 spearman and 2 warriors around close to these bowmen. I obtain writing from the russians for Contact with Americans, Horseback riding, Contact with Egyptians and 1g. I trade writing to the Egyptians for 79g.

1675BC(12) - Our archer defeats a bowmen.

IT: Our archer beats a bowmen an promotes to an elite (2hp left). The other bowmen retreat at the sight of our glorious troops! (probably because of pressure from the russians)

1650BC(13) - I'm building another settler in Kyoto.

1625BC(14) - Babs are retreating.

1600BC(15) - We produce a settler in Kyoto. I'm going to leave it to the next leader to decide where to found. My suggestion would be to found agressively towards babylon. We need to take advantage of their weakened position against the russians and gain some land. The babs will not accept peace without tribute. I suggest we get a few more archers and go take UR from them. Remember, we can't pay for peace.

1600BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp51600bc.zip)

Here's a very rough dotmap. No priority because of the war. Be agressive.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5dotmap.jpg

Got it, but won't be able to finish until tomorrow night.

Sheesh, sure didn't take long for the AI to give us guff.
Someone forgot to tell them that...

... we don't take no guff!!! :hammer:

Nice start Arathorn. The wheel monopoly never hurts, eh?

> We also order out a Chinese warrior, who stepped into our
> area. Granted, he killed a barbarian who would've pillaged us
> more, but such incursions are not to be tolerated. Mao,
> surprisingly, agreed, when he had a warrior next to an
> undefended city, and could easily have destroyed our fledgling nation.

:eek: Phew! :P

> VERY soon, however, we will need to stop expanding and start
> creating units, as war is on the horizon. Kyoto has a barracks
> to prepare for such eventuality.

Prophetic!

Architect, also a nice set of turns.

> The chinese already found near the incense. Bastards. I'm
> going to cultural push them.

That's it! No guff!!

> The russians and babs are at war.
Looks like the Russians take no guff either.

> IT: The babs demand 20g tribute and I tell them to stuff it. They
> declare war!

Hammy seems to be a gruff buffoon!

> I see no less than 5 Bowmen moving towards our borders. I
> veto temple in Osaka for a barracks.

:eek:

>We have Iron in our borders just north of Osaka in the mountains.

TRULY good news!

> The other bowmen retreat at the sight of our glorious troops!
> (probably because of pressure from the russians)

YAHOO! Who says you have to cave-in on deity!?

> We produce a settler in Kyoto. I'm going to leave it to the next
> leader to decide where to found. My suggestion would be to
> found agressively towards babylon. We need to take
> advantage of their weakened position against the russians and
> gain some land.

That sounds good, but... either this settler or next should almost SURELY go after the iron. Besides the extremely good reason of making swords (reason in itself), it might deny someone, and in this particular game, there's a really key reason... giving no destination spots to anyone that cross through our land. See if someone now where to walk east through our land to head for the iron, it would get us into a ill-timed second war. Any land we grab really must not jut out like a finger (to be chopped off) and if we can hug the coast and grow as a blob, it will help.

Let me give another example - see those two squares in our territory which are NW of Tokyo? They jut out. Just a tiny bit actually, but anyone going NE from Chengu will cross our squares, and risk a war. At a point where we have extra units, we'll want to plant them on spots like these to discourage incursions. Likewise when we found the red dot east of Osaka, when we have a few troops to spare, position them at the corner where troops would naturally end up cutting across our land. (These 'small points' are suggested after seeing this a lot in my France no-guff game.)

The problem with the red dot NW of Osaka is that it *REALLY* juts out. Other civs will walk over our land like it's a public highway. It would almost surely lead to an extra war, perhaps at a time like when we have a SOD two squares from UR. I would be prone to settle less aggressively with respect to our nations' border shape, and go a little more densely, and more to the east first. I would probably move the red dot due east of Kyoto one square west (3 steps from capital), then found on the hill next to the iron east of that. The red dot east of Osaka looks good. I also like the red dot near China south of Tokyo. These suggestions sum to 8 cities in a region which doesn't invite trouble. We'll get a ton of trouble from 'tributes' which we can't do much about, but we CAN try to reduce our trouble from war declarations after "get out!"

Anyway, that's my 2c, use your judgement, and as Architect said, be aggressive :D
Charis

(PS I'm commenting now since you've gotten well past my quick starting test, and know as much as I did. The civ 'shape' suggestions and what trouble we're due for are purely based on my France game, and not on this game specifically or on early deity war.)

The iron is already in our borders and just needs to be hooked up. Charis, do a dotmap of what you said and throw mine out. I really didn't spend enough time on it, hence my term "Rough".

Oh, THAT Iron! Didn't see it in the first map, I was referring to the one near eastern coast. Shortage of Iron for AI sounds like a good thing!

I was more advocating watching our boundary shape than picking on the roughmap :P But ok, here's a picture of what I'm talking about...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Dotmap-1600BC.jpg

Red dots (A, B, C, D, E, in no major order of preference) are possible city sites. B and D are moderately tight, but nothing ICS like. E is stretching it, a small fill-in half-city. A is important because it can seal our borders. B is important as it secures a second Iron, deny's one, and keeps an AI from sending a settler pair into our territory to claim it. Likewise D and the horse it sits on. I think we'll want "8" rather than "7" cities in this overall region. 'C' can go where shown, or as the arrow shows it, on top of a hill for better defense. The other sites are likely higher priority in that settling near 'C' doesn't force an immediate war, although when we're ready (or when china shows guff, we can capture whatever is settled near there)

The BLUE SQUARES on the map, (some labeled X, Y, Z) are important to put troops on when we can afford that, to avoid the AI waltzing through our land, risking a war. The Green dots are lower priority, for a more full seal off, after the blue, if and when we can spare the units.

As shown, this core region constitutes a square with two edges on the water. Guarding the 'corners' of the other sides makes it a region no one will want to 'pass through' to get somewhere else. Leave B or D unsettled for long and we'll see many tresspassers.
Settling up north would see exactly what is shown now - a Pink warrior tromping all over it - but then it would be our land and require a boot.

We'll need to cause Babylon more pain to get SOME payment for peace, so killing more troops or razing (not capturing) Ur would do that nicely (even pillaging would do). Founding or capturing up there is an option, but we would probably want to place units on every square to prevent trespassing.

Good luck!
Charis

Summary: The Defiant Nationals are still pursuing glorious war with
the Babs. We have 2 more cities, a map of the known world, 3 more
techs, and 1 more worker. We killed 4 Bab bowman, and lost a warrior
and an archer.

Preturn: I change lux tax from 30% to 20%. Also mm Kyoto to get warrior
in 1 turn with +2 food. Would like to unload some gold to get and trade
Math but everything we have is "doubtful". Decide to send settler to
city dot A, which will become Satsuma. This seals our borders and gives
a base to attack that Bab city just N, which turns out to be Akkad. I
think this is a better target than Ur because it combines city building
with attacking.

Goals:
Hook up horses
Settle more cities
Attack Babs and try to get peace
Get map of the world

1575BC: Decide to unload some gold to reduce tribute likelihood. Choose
to buy Math from Korea because they're cheapest and not near us.
Buy Math from Korea for 180g
Sell Math to Russia for 48g (all they have)
Sell Math to America for 38g (all they have)

Set research to Lit at 10% (40 turns)
Set lux to 10%
Road to Osaka finishes, move worker to start road to future Satsuma at
city dot A. Bab bowman comes into view NE of Osaka.

(I) Another Bab bowman shows up beside the earlier one.

1550BC: Change lux to 30% for Keyoto growth. Elite archer fires on 1st Bab
bowman that showed up. Initially loses, but comes back and survives with
1hp left. He is covered by 2 spear and settler heading for city dot A.

(I) Other Bab bowman attacks covering spear and loses. Barb shows up near
Osaka from Mts SE of Osaka.

1525BC: Babs got Poly, but no one else has it. Babs require 40g for peace.
Move spear and settler to city site A. Wounded spear and elite archer
retreat to Osaka. 2 archers head toward city A to put pressure on Akkad.

(I) Americans building Oracle. Barb dies on warrior protecting our worker.

1500BC: Too bad we're at war with the Babs. On regular deity, I'd make peace
now for 40g, trade Math for Poly, sell Poly around, and finish up by buying
that Bab worker in their capital.

Founded Satsuma on city dot A.

(I) Mongols (who no one has contact with) finished the Colossus. Bab
bowman enters Akkad after leaving last turn.

1475BC: Sending archers to Satsuma. Now Babs want 120g for peace, they
must be more confident for some reason. Boy, our workers are slow. Maybe
that's because we have ONE native worker and 2 bought workers.

(I) Chinese are building Oracle. Babs complete Oracle. Babs killed our
archer in Mts between Satsuma and Akkad. They also lost a bowman attacking
2nd archer in those Mts. Koreans building Pyramids.

1450BC:

Korea has Map Making
Babs have Map Making and Poly
China has Map Making and Poly

I give 156g and 8gpt to China for Poly
I sell Poly to Egypt for 109g
I sell Poly, WM, 99g to Korea for WM and Map Making
Pass around WM for 70g and all WMs (except Bab)

Net result is 236g for Poly and Map Making and all WMs

Babs want 80g for peace on the peace check.

Settler and spear heading city spot D, on top of horses.
Sending archers to Satsuma in Akkad battle.

(I) Bab bowman move near Satsuma. China building Great Lighthouse.

1425BC: Move 2 archers into Satsuma. Move settler and spear into city
spot D. Russia, China, and Korea showed up with Code of Laws. Egypt is
behind Map Making, everyone else is equal to us. Buy Russian worker
for WM, 2gpt and 82g. Sounds expensive but 2gpt is just 2 roads built,
and we're in dire need of workers. Also, better to spend gold than
have to refuse tribute. Change Edo from barracks to harbor. This will
let us trade with all civs except Mongols and help Edo grow. Its shield
production is pretty low for troops, although that will improve with
more terrain improvements and citizens.

(I) Korea building Great Lighthouse. Babs stick a stack of 3 bowman
outside of Satsuma and 1 more showing behind Akkad. I know there's
at least 2 more in Akkad besides the showing spear.

1400BC: Sell WM around for 5g. Attack stack of 3 bowman because that's
as good as it gets for our archers. Elite archers attacks vet bowman
and wins with 2hp left. Vet archer attack reg bowman and wins with 3hp
left and goes elite. Leave last bowman because I can't cover adequately.
Now "close to a deal" for peace with Babs.

Osaka building a archer and finally finishing temple.
Kagoshima found a spot D and starts on harbor.
Tokyo whips temple
Sell WM around again for 4g.

(I) Lost warrior to bowman at Satsuma. Too bad because my other spear
was just one move away from guarding Satsuma.

1375BC: New archer from Kyoto to Osaka. Osaka warrior to Satsuma. Worker
finishes road to Satsuma and works on hooking up horses near Osaka. We
need horses to stop the covering problems in attacking bowman in open.
Sell Wm for 4g.

(I) Babs start moving toward Osaka because Satsuma must be judged too tough.

1350BC:

Russia is up Code of Laws, 119g
America is even, 9g
Korea is up Code of Laws, 226g
Egypt is even, 1g
Bab is even, 82g
China is up Code of Laws, 255g

We sell WM around for 4g. We have one exploring warrior who is heading for
a large southern continent connected to our continent. He should continue
to explore and update our WM so we can sell it.

I move another archer to Satsuma. Next leader can decide whether to assault
Akkad, or move some back to Osaka. Move spear to N of Kyoto for either defence
of Mts around Osaka or to escort new settler being trained.

Comments:

We need move 2 units to take out Babs without having to worry about covering.

Worker and harbor at Edo should finish at same time to allow trading. All civs
we know about are connected by coastal tiles.

Was close to finishing Bab war (and would have stopped it under regular Deity)
but we're still at war.

Our bought workers are SLOW

Did not have any tribute demands while playing.

Sold WM around each turn after initial trade. Can make 4-5g per turn.

After horses, out ONE native worker should probably hook up iron.

Satsuma temple can be whipped in 4 turns.

Save Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-1350bc.zip)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-1350bc.jpg

A group of Japanese army vets were sitting around the local watering hole shooting the breeeze.

"Why the last leader decided to train horses before mining iron, I'll never know. What we need
are some big old two-handed swords to put the fear of the Meiji into the Babs. They'll
probably run at the very sight and give us a city or two."

"I know, first our last leader mumbled something about logistics to Satsuma and then something
about combined arms fighting with horses, spears, and catapults. Maybe it'll work and maybe it
won't. All I know is that my bow hasn't failed me yet and I hear that swords are better still.
What is all this gibberish about logistics, attrition rates, and combined arms fighting anyway?"

Their seargent, who has been around the block a time or two, decides maybe his men should hear
something, in case any of them get promoted to higher command. "Well boys, logistics is how fast
you can get your troops and equipment to the battle front. It's whoever gets there quickest
with the most that generally wins, regardless of using archers or swords."

"Now attrition rates are how many Babs are killed compared to how many heroic Japanese are killed.
As a famous general once said, your job isn't to die for your country, it's to get the Bab to
die for his country. I have to hand it to the Babs, they have tough bowman. What we need is
an edge in attack, and our spears and archers, as proud as I am of them, don't quite do it."

"Well seargent, that's what I've been saying. What we need are some huge iron-pumping swordsmen
to let the Babs know what's what."

"That's one way, but let's look at what spears, horses, and cats give you. Spears are your
defence for cities, mountains tops, and other strategic points. Horses give a fast attacking
force that can concentrate on any point quickly and retreat if needed. Cats can fire when
the Babs move next to you and again when they attack. The point is, there's alot of
flexibility and choices and generals like that."

This is an interesting game and it looks like you have an open slot. I will join in if nobody else shows up by the 5th player turn.

That's Charis' call. Speaking of Charis, you're up, dude! It's been 36 hours...the hordes are awaiting knowledge of the future of Japan and are getting restless.

Arathorn

:eek: Oops, but 'Charis' doesn't come in alphabetical order after 'cpp' !

:lol:

Got it, pardon the delay. Jaxom that sounds good - glad to have you on board. You're on deck after me. We'll keep Urugharakh fresh for a later game, he was on the border of too much and burnout. (If anyone is wondering about the (P)OW game, that will start after Feb 3, so we have a bit of staggering in the starts)

cpp good turn, and a nice discussion between the seargeant and his men :D

Thanks,
Charis

Special thanks to Jaxom for taking over from me. I really don't feel like playing Civ3 now.

To the rest: In case you are interested, I can post a short - well probably not so short - summary of my AW game. I intended in some time ago, but was not sure where to place it. I can do it in the RBE section or in the RBCiv Forum or open a new thread, whatever you prefer and of course only in case there is enough interest in the community. Best place would be probably at the start of the upcoming deity always war SG.

A fine job to cpp in settling, fighting, and trading! :goodjob:

State of the Nation: We're at war with the arrogant Babylons. Cpp sought to found 'A',
seal borders, attack Akkad, hook up horses, get map. Most of these were accomplished,
but the Babylonian war drags on. We would like peace, and to buy Code of Laws and sell
it to them, America and Egypt. Interesting choice for us - move to assault Akkad or
move back to Osaka. As cpp noted, horses would be a nice addition.

[0] 1350BC - Tokyo whips its barracks. Kagoshima switches to temple, to be whipped.
Kyoto adjusted to get settler in 2 instead of 3 turns. I see the elite archers
in Satsuma facing the bowman and Meijichari's mouth waters! He attacks, and wins.
Then vs just a spearman, our mountain archer attacks the city of Akkad. He wins
and promotes, but one more spear left (at least). Hammy will now take peace for
free but won't give anything. That's not good enough for Meijichari, who vows
more pain for the Babylons.

The Meiji feels aggressive. Kagoshima's spear moves up to the barbarian. And the
almost healed archer moves up out of Satsuma. We want to get the city before they
can reinforce it.

[1] 1325BC - Tokyo starts a spear. The mountain archer attacks the city and kills a
spear. Shoot, another one. Let's get the walking reinforcements on the way in.
The elite archer shoots at the bowman and... loses. The other archer kills him,
leaving a warrior. Our other archer moves to cover and to get next to Akkad.
Finally the barb camp is cleared, for 25g. A warrior from Osaka moves east in
case we need more beef.

Map is sold around, and tech situation is as it has been. Catherine is gracious??
Have we pleasured her in some way?! Hammy will now pay 20g for tribute.
"NOT good enough!!" screams the defiant one!

(IBT) The spear who moved up to cover the archers is slain by a bowman out of Akkad,
but their warrior dies promoting our archer. The Russians start the Pyramids, and
on that very turn, Thebes completes it. :lol: Koreans switch over to Lighthouse.

[2] 1300BC - Osaka starts a spear (and thinks someone has to do a worker soon)
The specific tactics are a tough call, with our archers hurt, and a 1hp bowman
suspected under the spear. Our mountain archer has just one target and goes first.
A tense battle sees him redline, then defeat the spear! Now that 1hp bowman is
showing!! A bold move aimed at pain maximization is chosen next. Our vet spear
is the one to try to finish him. One swing, boom, we're promoted to elite and the
city is autorazed (it would have been nice to be able to capture it). Now our
rather hurt archers can back up and heal.

Our settler is up, and has three choices. Eastern iron hill (B), to the west in
the Jungle (C), or up just PAST where Akkad was, on the inland lake, catching
fish, and if we win culture, the wheat at Ashur. That's my top choice until
I look at the culture. Babs are rockin'. Then the Meiji figures that anyone else
who settles that area again will lose their city to us, saving us a settler :P

He decides to "fill in" our backspace, and use wars when people challenge us to
expand into their borders. Plus 'A' is much easier to defend than 'Akkad' area.

Map sold around, and Cathy is now annoyed?? Was it my comment on her pleasure?!
Peace now or let the bowmen attack an elite spear. Come get some Hammy!!

(IBT) They do NOT attack, but shift toward Osaka, out of range of my attacks now.
Bwaaack-bwaaack-bagggaaaak!! cluck the cowardly arrow slingers.

[3] 1275BC - The new temple's expansion at Tokyo puts HUGE pressure on Chengdu of
China! They only have *six* of their own tiles under control. That's like 15
Japanese foreign national(ists) subverting the city! Our horse is connected, and
Osaka swaps to horse. Next connection, iron.

China and Korea now have Philosophy (and COL), while Russia and America only have COL
and Egypt has neither and lacks Map Making. Hrmm... the Babs have BOTH new techs,
meaning they were the ones to research Philosophy. "Philosophy of getting your butt
kicked when you pick on the wrong civ!" :hammer:

He will give Philosophy OR CoL, 'almost' both. How almost? 60g.

[4] 1250BC - As more bowmen move into view, and with no good attacks in sight,
it's a good time for peace, as we can broker Philo. We let Hammy live, giving us
tribute worthy of Japan's honor. He'll offer either Uruk or Lagash, but not
both. No thanks, undefensible and fully corrupt. We'll take TECH baby!
Philosophy and WM+1g (all he has). Hrmm? He'll toss in Uruk as a complete freebie?
Well if you INSIST, ok! (Note later - if an alarm is going off, you're right)
I just hope that dinky city doesn't lead us to another war! (But with horses and soon
Iron online, we fear no one!) At least now we have a free scientist.

Hrmm... Abe and Cathy seem really close to Philo, not offering much at all.
Abe gives us the better price, and we pay 4gpt+13g with Philosophy for Code of Laws.
We can go after Republic next if we so choose. Looking over the tech situation,
and the *empty* city of Uruk, I fear there will surely be a tribute demand before
long. And them capturing Uruk will make it that much harder to bring them to 'pay'
for peace. I note we have no embassies. Let's form some cheap ones. China and
Russia qualify. China has iron, a temple, working on settler, 2 lux, 11spt, 2 spears.
Moscow working on temple, has horses, 3 spears, 7spt. (I remember JUST in time,
NO ROP! :nono: We don't want spies in our capitals!)

Looking at the map - is China going to take all that subcontinent to themselves?
Satsuma's temple is whipped.

[5] 1225 BC - Settler done, Kyoto slips a temple into the queue. Edo's harbor is done,
we start a temple then galley. Satsuma starts a worker. The new settler heads to
the jungle near Japan.

[6] 1200 BC - China now has construction. So does Egypt, and Korea (who has several hundred
less gold)

[7] 1175 BC - Pisces Hill Station is founded on the coastal hill next to iron. (This gives
the maybe-we-should Forbidden Palace msg midturn)

[8] 1150 BC - Kagoshima's temple is whipped. Nagoya is founded in the jungle,
pressuring Nanking.

Hey, remember on the dot map those blue squares pointed out as points where the
AI would like walk through? Hammy's bow does just that. We lightly remind him this
is the sovereign territory of mighty Japan and that he must leave. He shoots an
arrow at our envoy. He does not know the envoy is a follower of Bushido. He dives
and rolls, nocks and arrow, and himself shoots back, slaying the bowman!

Babylon declares war! Come get some!!! :hammer:
(I'm glad Jaxom has joined, he's now in the all-too-familiar position of following
Charis who hair-triggered a war!)

The spear in Pisces Hill leaves his post, much like a goalie in hockey. Reg warriors
do a shuffle to cover it and Kagoshima. Vet warriors are in Kyoto and Tokyo ready
for upgrades in 5 or less turns when Iron hooked up. (Hmm, we need cash for that)

(IBT) Problem. Uruk is toast. A bowman moves toward it. I plan to *give* it away to
whoever has not given us guff (and where it will be uselessly corrupt) before
the Babs can capture it. For now, it's a nice distraction to pull his troops AWAY :lol:

[9] 1125 BC - Kyoto finishes temple, starts a spear, but can be swapped.
WM sold around, no change in techs.

(IBT) Lol, THREE Bab units converge next to our undefended ghost town, Uruk.

[10] 1100 BC - Osaka finishes our first horseman.
Charismeiji ponders his nation's laws on cities and abandonment and gifting, and finds
that... he has made a big mistake! :eek: The charter of his government prohibits
accepting of cities in tribute. :blush: Fortunately the city has not grown or
built anything. Now the people are set free, to wander the countryside yet again,
free from Babylonian despotism, and free from the meddling of Charismeiji into
affairs he has no business meddling in!

The scandal rocks the Japanese seat of government, and Charismeiji is tossed out
on his ear. The people demand a new leader, NOW!
The ex-Meiji apologizes, hides his face, and backs down. :ack:

To our next leader, Jaxomeiji,
- There's a horse and archer unmoved and fortified in/near Osaka
- Maps were sold around this turn, no new techs
- Good luck restoring the confidence of the people in their government
- The Kyoto and/or Edo tiles may need some adjustment, currently set for spear next turn
- Pisces food is too slow to whip temple when we want, might kick out a warrior first
- Note Babylon has no horses, but one nearby near Babylon. If we can keep denying that
it would be good. They have iron but not hooked up, at Ellipi.

Save File 1100BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Japan-1100BC.zip)

Roster: (10 turns each)
Arathorn << on deck
Architect
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom << up

Charismeiji, from exile

PS I think I may have inadvertently not issued a get out order to the Bab troops on the turn peace was declared. Thinking about it later, that would be unnecessarily silly. They hadn't gotten to move yet, and when they did, took immediate steps out of our land. It's not against the spirit of the law to let them leave by a direct route. If they linger or 'cut across' our territory instead of getting out, a 'get out!' warning would however be required)

(PPS to Urugharakh - I would love to hear about the AW game. In the RBE discussion section would work just fine. So would RBCiv forum. If a new thread it would have to be in the "Stories and Tales" section, or Chieftess will shift it there ;) The RBE discussion one seems best as it contains other discussion of AW topics)

Charis: Thanks for your kind comments on the sergeant discussion and on my turn. Awesome battle for Akkad, sounds like a real nail biter. I think you are slightly more aggressive on combat than I tend to be.

I thought hard about taking the 5hp elite archer from Satsuma and attacking that Bab bowman on grass next to Satsuma. I decided it was a little too risky because if they defeated the covering spear, they would easily get the elite archer also.

However, to satisfy my curiosity, I tried that attack after saving the game and posting my turn. The elite archer won and produced a GL Tojo! I'm still kicking myself for not doing that as a last attack, and hoping that you would try that attack yourself as the first thing on the pre-turn. Que sera, sera.

Jaxomeiji answers the call for duty.

Jaxomeiji ponders about Meijichari reign. Ah, so we can accept a city in tribute as long as we abandon it on the same turn? In that case, Jaxomeiji sets aside a special budget for a "cleanup" squad. :p Pisces Hill switches to a warrior to train the first member of the squad. Jaxomeiji notices the lack of workers and makes plan to improve the situation.


1075 BC Kyoto's new spearman is sent to Osaka and another one begins training.

"Hey you the worker, build a road there. What did you say? Salamazi! A foreigner! Salamazi, who brought this spy here? Arrest this worker and take him to the capitol, pronto!"

IT: Babylon settles a village by the horse, we will have to destroy this ugly sight. 3 bowman appear near Osaka.

1050 BC Our scout enters a hut and finds a skilled warrior.

IT: China begins the Great Library.

1025 BC 2 spies are sent to China to acquire contact with the Mongol. Genghis is backward, I show him polytheism to get his 28 golds and world map. The new world map is traded around for 80 golds. A couple of warriors are equipped with shiny new swords. Kyoto finishes a spearman and trains a real worker.

IT: The bowmen move toward Tokyo.

1000 BC Satsuma completes a good Japanese worker and trains another one. Tokyo completes a spearman and trains a horseman. Korea has no horses and they want some. They offer 160 golds and Literature to gain access to our horses. China also want some of our horses but I prefer they have none, so I make the deal with Wang Kon and 3 more warriors receive their new swords. I set research to Republic at minimum. An elite archer takes out a regular bowman near Tokyo, taking 2 damage.

"Sir! We have found another spy in our workers, he is from China."
"Salamazi! Send him to the American, pronto!"
"But Sir, we paid good money to bring him over here."
"I don't care, those foreigners are slackers on the job and they are all spies! Salamazi! If you find any more, just ship them to America!"

IT: 2 bowmen impales themselves on the new spearman in Tokyo, promoting him to elite. Korea completes the Great Lighthouse.

975 BC Osaka completes a spearman and trains a horseman. Hammurabi is ready to talk, he wants a worker? Salamazi! Get lost! This is a good Japanese worker! Sensei, send our troops to raze Kish, pronto! A regular swordsman dies to a fortified bowman near Tokyo but the next swordsman wins and promotes to veteran.

IT: 4 bowmen run away in fear and take cover in nearby Kish, Salamazi! Come out and fight, pronto!

950 BC An archer, the hero of Osaka, shoots at a spear near Osaka and Salamazi! We get the Great Library! :beer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_bc0850_tojo1.jpg

IT: Our brave swordsman in the open kills 2 bowmen attacking from Kish and almost kills the 3rd one before falling, he shall be avenged pronto!

925 BC The Great Library of Satsuma is now open. China cascades to the Great Wall and completes it. Pisces Hill completes the first Cleaner and begins a temple.

IT: Babylon wants to talk peace, but have only 25 golds to offer, Salamazi! come and get us! Hammurabi sends 3 bowmen on the heroes of Kish but they all bite the dust, promoting a spearman to elite. :jump:

900 BC Construction came out of the GL, Kyoto completes a settler and begins a spearman. Troops walk on Eridu. Our scout dispatch a barbarian camp under the nose of a Chinese archer. :)

IT: A defending sword dispatch a bowmen near Eridu

875 BC The temple of Nagoya is pop-rushed. A horseman is pop-rushed in Tokyo.

IT: Hammurabi sent a settler pair to die at the same spot Kish was.

850 BC Monarchy shows up, troops are healing, Hammurabi would give Elipi for peace, his iron city.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_bc0850_map.jpg

There is a settler on the way to claim the area near the horse, I suggest placing the city on the green dot or directly on the horse. It would be best to raze Eridu before making peace, there is a cleaner ready in Pisces Hill if you take any cities for peace. :) China is becoming quite the monster, we should go break their cities as soon as we have Samurai.

On this note, Jaxomeiji retires mumbling something about the darn lazy foreigners.

Here is the save at the end of 850 BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_meiji_bc0850.zip)

Well that certainly was a fine turn! :hammer:

After cpp's curiousity check, it was clear we deserved Tojo - I'm glad he put on an appearance here, and was a man dedicated to science. Although, wow, we're doing well with tech if all that pops out is construction!

Things are going better than expected. That speaks well of the preparation of our leaders for war, as we have balanced culture (many temples), military and barracks, and expansion (with a solid and nicely shaped core). The problem comes when a strong foe makes a demand at an awkward time and declares war, and we're not allowed to take peace until we get something for it. That's the time of thing that could turn a solid game into a total loss in fairly short order, so don't get overconfident!! Picture a dogpile against us, and remember we can't get allies!

Strategic thought... if for some reason we do end up at constant war with Babylon, we should probably continue to deny iron and horses, but raze-resettle from *right to left*, putting our new cities against the east coast and growing out from there - to avoid having a half-dozen foes smell blood and trample across our lands with large SOD's to reach Babylon's eastern-most holdings. Looking at the map, a city we settle on the site of the ruins of Babylon itself would make for a nice FP :P

Regarding foreign workers, there was a prohibition against them in the first draft, but that was removed in the rules posted in the start of this thread. So at this point, the expulsion of "lazy workers" is not required, but certainly your actions fit your leader quite well :P Charismeiji certainly can't bark at anyone for rules confusion :lol: In fact, sheeeesh, thank goodness Akkad was autorazed. We can't capture foreign towns. Now that's going to mean many lazy workers later on. If you remember the French Lambs among Wolves epic, you see what impact that had, even for an industrious civ.

I suppose sending lazy workers to America, an industrious civ, will certainly help them to become better workers :P

There are two items then I would like feedback from the other players...

- Implement a no lazy worker cuz they're spies rule?
- Would you prefer to be able to take and immediately abandon cities in tribute?

With razing only, no capture, the first one would be somewhat painful. (Not to mention, in a recent game I had over 500 captured workers from razing every city on the planet. Imagine Abe with 500 lazy-but-industrious workers :P )

As far as tribute, I think we would 'prefer' to take gold or tech first, but if the other civ can't pay, surely this is an appropriate form of punishment for giving us guff (this was what happened with Uruk, I didn't want the city, but after they paid all they could in tech and cash, they would still give it up)

I'm fine with keeping things as they are, or by popular demand making either of these adjustments now that you have a feel for the game. It's part which fits the theme best, and how much pain do you want? :P

Arathorn << UP
Architect << on deck
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom

PS Ok, maybe it's too early in the morning, but in what sense is a warrior a 'cleaner' and would he actually do anything? :crazyeye:

PPS@Jaxom If you were clear on the rules (no foreign nationals added to the city, not that we couldn't use them) but were doing some national-self-flagellation to atone for the era of Charismeiji that's fine, but try to mention such things in a 'P.S.' at least :P

Rules

I'm fine with having slave (foreign) workers around, I even bought one on my turn. But they should never be added to one of our cities. However, if others feel that we should only have native workers, that's fine with me.

On the cities, I'm slightly against demanding cities in tribute, even with abandoning them later that turn. This keeps the general principal of never having a city with a foreigner in it, even for a partial turn.

Strategy

I notice we're doing min research into Republic, costing 3gpt. This is probably not needed since we have the GL.

Also, are we going to let China have the whole southern continent? My feeling is that we should end the war with the Babs (they're ready for peace) and direct our energy at containing China. At least to get a base on the southern continent before they claim the whole thing. We are actually about even with China in culture so we should be able to compete with them down there.

Here is Japan at 850BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-850bc.jpg

If we're razing every city, and we're not allowing foreign nationals in our cities (good moves, themewise, as far as I'm concerned), I think we have to let those foreignors do something. Slaving away at shovels outside of cities is about all they're good for, and I think we should be allowed to let them keep doing that as long as they like. :)

As far as cities go, I'm completely neutral, but I would like some kind of consensus/decision before I play tonight.... I guess I have an extremely weak vote for allowing cities as tribute, if they have nothing else to give...and abandoning them, under the "Even nationalists are willing to supervise the dismantling on an enemy city" precept.

Boy, China looks like a 500-pound gorilla in the making. Samurai vs. riders? Could ... be ... exciting.

It looks, though, like our expansion (8 cities) is pretty close to even with everyone BUT China. That's good.

Arathorn

I thought cities gained in peace deals came full of native citizens or is that flipped cities? Can't keep it straight...

If peace deal cities are fully native then IMO, then doesn't that count as razing one of our cities which triggers the eliminate that civ rule?

Architect: You're right, I just tried it out and cities taken in tribute for peace have their citizens converted to your nationality.

So I have to retract my earlier position and say that we should be able to take cities in tribute and even keep them since they are now Japanese citizens. This can be the "naturalized citizen" rule. But, no naturalized citizen can be president of our republic or democracy :) .

Also I just realized we have Monarchy and are religious so we can say goodbye to Despotism. I think Tokyo has been whipped 2 times now, once for its temple and once for its barracks so be careful of that. Since we're low on pop anyway, it might be more efficient to rush improvements by gold rather than pop anyway from now on.

Testing testing one two one two

Edit: Sorry about this, I had trouble posting and I tried a smaller message.

@Cpp1: Monarchy will cost us more money than despotism for very little gain in growth and shields per turn. We will get the republic in no more than 34 turns, I think we better stick to Despotism until we have the Republic. Also, I prefer to make my own luck than to depend on the AI, hence the 10% research on Republic. This way we know for certain when we will have the Republic. I would prefer a single scientist but every city we have make good use of their population and all are contributing to the war effort.

@Charis: I am very clear on the rule and I understand we can have foreign workers. I had a few reasons to get rid of them. First, it fits the theme very well and no matter what is decided, be warned that Jaxommeiji will be quite rude to foreign spies. :) On the other hand, Jaxomeiji has less problems with captured workers as they are less likely to be spies. In PTW, there are many ways to use workers and I'll be using foreigners whenever I feel the need for an outpost or a radar tower. Now America was not my favourite choice for a taker but it was a Chinese worker and China was the only other civ that could pay for it. For some reason, civs from the other continent didn't give me the option to offer the worker, it's the first time I notice that.

Another reason was the opportunity to get contact with the Mongol, whom were not known by everybody. I know Korea would have put us in contact with Mongolia eventually, but the sooner you get contact, the more trading opportunities you get.

Finally, I never ever buy workers from the AI, the game is easy enough as it is. A 100 golds is still too low a price for a worker at the early stage of the game, they are worth way more than that. With the theme of this SG, it felt natural to give them back. However, I gave a Russian and Babylonian worker to China and a Chinese worker to America. Let them handle the spies! ;)

About taking a city as a tribute I have mixed feelings. Either way will be fine, with a slight preference for accepting only cities on our border. My reference to this in my report was mostly a tought Jaxomeiji had about Meijicharis' action. However, if we do accept cities in peace talks to abandon them, we will need "cleaners" to, hmm, dispose of the population.
:die:

However, if the population is indeed Japanese, then we don't need cleaners, but Jaxomeiji distrusts these "pseudo-nationals". :P

Strategy wise, so what if China gets all of the southern continent, as long as we get all of Babylon. Look at the small border we would have with China once we own Babylonia. We should press on Babylon, their Golden Age is over and as long as they don't have iron, we have an advantage on them. If i remember correctly, there were no ressources worth taking now in that sub-continent, settling there only to deny China would give us defensive problems and those cities would be hopelessly corrupt. A FP in Babylon and we will have a very strong core, more than enough to get any win but domination.

@Jaxom - the giving back of workers was a fun and in-character twist :P I just wanted to make sure about the rule, and to point out that if any one player is going to consistently boot all foreign workers that we would either want to make that a rule or in any case make sure everyone was heading in the same direction. (And regarding cleaners... oh THAT kind of cleaner!)

As was stated, a country in tribute becomes 'native' to you. That's what the *game* mechanics say. Theme-wise, Uruk or similar cities have zero to do with the great nation of Japan, and to think foreigners across the planet would be seen by the nationalistic people as normal citizens is crazy talk :P

Let me summarize feedback so far...
* City for tribute?
- Mixed feelings, slight preference for accepting only those on our border
- If they are 'our' citizens we can't in good faith abandon them
- They're ok as 'naturalized citizens', they just can't be president :P
- No disagreement on no adding them to our cities
- Neutral, slight preference for 'ok' as we 'supervise the dismantling of an enemy war machine'
- Slightly against (but that comment may have been before catching that they become naturalized)
- If a civ ends up dying but with a one tile island city, we're going to kick ourselves

I want to keep the theme but not tie our hands, so let me state it like this...

"Cities offered as a concession for peace are an unusual case, and the immigration officials led by the current leader must decide their fate according to the good of the nation, but their status must be declared at the time of the transfer. A city that is declared guilty of war crimes must be immediately dismantled (improvements sold, city abandoned), as a lesson to the opposing civ. A city that yearns to be under control (often with borders connecting to us) may be granted statehood, which may not be revoked."

* Workers, keep, use?
- Sending them back was strategic for a good trade, and to avoid 'early purchase' of workers as semi-exploitative
- Using forced labor with those captured from civs were at war with makes total sense (in fact, if nothing else, make sure you use them and don't let them escape while at war with that civ)

Let's try this:

"Foreign nationals are viewed with suspicion, and may never be added into our cities. They should not be bought, but if captured during war should be kept as prisoners of war and put to use in labor camps. The leader at the time of the end of the war may decide whether they should be deported to a location where someone will pay their way, or kept as unskilled labor"

These two rules are longer but basically both boil down to "keep the theme of Nationalists and do what you think is best" :D

With regard to China
- Can we let China take that whole southern continent?
- Who cares as long as we get all of Babylon!?
- Samurai vs Riders, yum!

I like the idea very much of pressing on vs Babylon, a GA-less, iron-less, horse-less, gassed foe which makes an ideal FP location *AND* a contiguous ocean-bounded empire for us!! If we take a few cities or a 'chunk' of China it will be undefendable and surely plastered with tresspassers. Plus... will China be smart enough to put an FP down south? If not it will an ultracorrupt mess. It's nice that the AI's will be fighting over junk land out of the path of US!

While it's not a rule that we can't have wars of aggression, we really don't see it as our purpose to interfere in the affairs of others. (It's easy enough to goad them though :P ) We certainly don't allow them to interfere in ours! If China doesn't declare war on us, my own preference would be to continue war with Babylon while we are still winning it, while it makes sense to do so, and while we have no more pressing matter to deal with.

With regard to Govt
It all comes down to how we want to rush over the next 10-34 turns. The cost will be about equal, although I think as a relig civ there would be a slight advantage to Monarchy. If we have more poprushing to do, hang tight til Republic. If not, Monarchy is good for now.

Thanks for the feedback, this is good discussion, and I hope the results of 'put yourself in their shoes and do what they would see as best for the proud nation' works for you. (Jaxom certainly has the role playing thing down :cool: ) Just remember to be defiant!

Charis

P.S. I'll toss out one more semi-random thought, currently disallowed in this game. In my "no guff" game, if a civ acknowledged our greatness and power by offering to *pay* for an alliance, AND if it was in my country's own best interest, I would take such an alliance, and when they would no longer pay, or when I no longer wanted it, break the alliance. In this situation only I chose not to demand that the 'ally' get out while he was heading to fight our common foe. That's not on the table here, but I wanted to mention it as an alternate rule that fits well with an "intelligent self-serving nationalist" as opposed to a "rabid defiant nationalist" :P

Alright. I'll press the war with Babylon, until Tokyo flips to China, which will be enough incentive for me to declare war on Mao, in our own best interests.

Hopefully, we can push north along the east coast to discourage traipsers across our land.

As far as govt. goes, I'll take a close look at the situation and decide, probably primarily based on troop count.

Arathorn

About Monarchy.

I have to disagree with Charis about monarchy at this point. Look at the number of tiles that would produce more under monarchy, I count one, maybe two. We have 4 workers, 5 next turn, so if all workers mine a hill 6 tiles will benefit from monarchy, in 12 turns. Monarchy doesn't improve commerce, so we will still make only 10gpt above our expenses. Oh wait, we will loose 16 free support, which will most likely eat up all of our gpt. Now we might expect to obtain money from the AI but what will we sell them? We are not researching, we will not broker until the GL expires and have no extra luxury to trade. China would pay well for our horses but it might be better to deny them horses as long as possible. So we will not gain much money from the AI in the next 30 turns and would not be able to cash-rush anyway. So I am against monarchy on the "technical" viewpoint. If someone proclaims himself King in a fun role-playing way, I will applaud him even if Jaxomeiji disapprouve. :)

About foreign workers.

My actions were not meant to complicate the rules. It felt right to do them so I did. I can think of a few role-playing ways to acquire foreign workers and "mark" them so that Jaxomeiji has to tolerate them. However, if the role-playing stuff bother too many players, I'll just follow the rules as stated.

Samurai VS Riders, yum yum! I hope the AIs get to chivalry before education!

P.S.: It is very likely that either China or Korea will research the Republic in the next 15 turns and both have enough cash to buy it from the other, so I don't think it will take 34 turns to get the Republic. The question will be, will we have enough markplaces to make it worth the switch.

The Ara-Meiji came to power in 850 AD to a nation in the midst of war with Babylon. Most of the notes of the scribes of the time were lost, so only a reconstruction of events can be made.

A number of minor skirmishes with Babylon occurred early in the realm of the Ara-Meiji. Hammurabi's people also refounded Shuruppak on the ruins of an old city.

About 825 BC, the scribes in the Great Library found the secrets of the Republic, perhaps brought there from the Koreans and the Chinese. This prompted a revolt in 800 BC, leaving the people confused about a new process of "voting." A short period of anarchy ensued, during which time the world's best priests assured the people that all would be well, to trust in the spirit of their ancestors, and to vote as instructed. So, it came to pass that the Ara-Meiji family was elected to lead the Japanese Republic.

The sky started falling shortly thereafter....in 775 BC.....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/mao_demands.jpg

In 750 BC, then, peace was made with Babylon, getting their maps, all 12 gold they had available, and the city of Shuruppak, which was made fully Japanese by decree of the Ara-Meiji.

The war with China is not going particularly well. We razed Chengdu by Tokyo, killing two spears and an archer at the cost of one swordsman. Our SW city, Nagoya, was caught protected by a single spearman and fell to ~15 Chinese swordsmen in 670 BC.

670 BC was a problem for another reason. After years of wandering our homeland, a Babylonian bowman finally refused to leave. An emissary to Babylon was dispatched, with firm orders to no longer accept vague promises from Hammurabi about ordering his units out. He had to move them immediately or go to war. That emissary never returned, but Shuruppak is now surrounded by Babylonian swordsmen (yes, they have iron).

650 BC was not even complete, when the people of Japan, feeling their power, deposed the Ara-Meiji family, with a special election. The Ara-Meiji were ousted, with many units still unmoved.

The next leader finds the keys of power (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-650ad.zip) along with some notes.

"Oh, boy, this is getting ugly."
"Probably the best we can do is hold the Edo, Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka, Satsuma line."
"Babylon will almost assuredly raze Shuruppak soon, meaning we will have to eliminate them at some point."
"I wonder if moving that archer by Chengdu had anything to do with the tribute demand from Mao. No time to find out now."
"Or maybe it was anarchy."
"With a few more turns of growth, Kyoto can hit 15 spt, which means a sword/horse every other turn, which we will need."
"What does SNAFUBAR mean?"
"Maybe staying in despotism would've been better, as losing cities will surely raise war weariness quickly."
"Hmm...I don't think we've checked happiness in 650 yet...maybe that's why we were deposed early."
"I don't want to die."
"I expect a couple swords on the hill by Nagoya soon and another ~10 headed for Edo/Kyoto in the next 2-3 turns."
"Please don't attack the Chinese archer on a hill across a river. PLEASE!"
"It was kinda freaky how our trade routes to the western continent would come and go every turn."
"Boy, those barbs in the south knew how to fight..."
"Good luck -- cause you are gonna need it."

Arathorn

:eek:

Wow! That was just about as bad as things could possibly have gotten! Tis the nature of the variant, not anything bad on Arathorn's part. Sluggish bowmen and arrogant Mao. Why on earth does the AI get so bent out of shape when asked to leave anyway?? I hope it's not as simple (and as stupid) as

if (my_power > your_power) and (you_boot_me) then DeclareWar()

Things were just looking too good, weren't they? If Mao was a little calmer, they probably would be. Alas, this is going to be a snowball that may just bring us more pain than we've ever seen. As we lose cities and become more tribute-bait, we could end up at war with everyone (especially since no alliances). We can't pay for peace either, so there's no backing down, we'll need to actively counterattack. Then even if we bring them to peace, if say CHINA takes a detour and walks all over our land, we'll get booted back into war.

Just wanted to amplify the gravity of the situation :nuke:
Of course it's far from over. Right???

Arathorn
Architect << UP
cpp1 << on deck
Charis
Jaxom

Boy Architect, do you have your work cut out for you! Good luck!!
Charis

The Japanese world in 650BC. From Arathorn's notes, I'd say we're in deep dodo here. A couple of comments:

I wonder if our big treasury had something to do with the tribute request from the Chinese. Usually its nice to have a lot of gold stored up, but in this game I'm beginning to wonder.

Normally when being attacked on Deity you'd either hold out for 6-7 turns and sue for peace, or sign up allies to distract them. Here neither is possible because we can't pay anything for peace and we can't sign up allies (by our variant rules).

I think our best hope is that other civs realize that China is exposing its other end to them and they jump into the mix.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-650bc.jpg

I got it. I'm up in two games now so give me a few to get them both done. Hopefully tonight.

650BC(0) - Not much to change. I spend 32 gold to get a horseman from Kyoto next turn.

IT: Babs raze Shurappak to the ground. They must die now. We get currency from the GL.

630BC(1) - Shuffling troops around.

610BC(2) - We attack some units and manage to kill a bowman and an archer without losing anything but two horsemen goto 1 hp. I rush 2 swordsman this turn and we are down to 8 gold with 3 swordsman due next turn. China has 3 swordsman poised to enter our lands and babs have 4 troops - 2 bowman, 1 swordsman, and 1 spearman. I veto barracks in kagoshima for a spearman.

590BC(3) - We lose 3 swordsman attacking a single swordsman in the jungle. The chinese will talk to us but want something for peace so we press on.

IT: We lose a spearman and swordsman to the chinese.

570BC(4) - There are now 9 offensive units attacking from china and 10 from babylon. I attack with a swordsman into plains and lose to a bowman. I attack with an archer against a bowman in the plains and lose. I finally win one but damage our swordsman down to 1hp. 2 horseman lose against a bowman in the open field.

IT: Our war happiness disappears and kyoto goes into disorder.

550BC(5) - There is nothing to do at this point. My men have executed me for poor leadership.

With no way to make peace without concessions we will never get ahead of the game. Plus, my RNG luck isn't helping.

550BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-meiji-550bc.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5byebye.jpg

Perhaps this defiant nationalism works better when you are on an island?

Got it :confused:

I am guessing that Architect is handing it off after 5 turns. I'll play either 5 or 15 turns, depending on how things go, to even things up (assuming we last that long).

I haven't looked at the situation yet, but from the report and the screenshot, this looks like the worst situation I have ever seen in an SG game. We're in intensive care with the ventilator pumping away in this game.

:help:

cpp hopped in there quick. I saw the report and didn't want to subject anyone else to that torture, so I was going to do the captain with his ship thing. I should have posted here first but didn't think it would take more than a few minutes :P

You got da got, do what you can if anything, but Architect's assessment is correct, don't worry about the results.

Charis

I am reminded of playing Epic 12. Hey, you win some, and... :arrow:

:lol: ;)

The barron may be right. This could be too many hogtying vectors for a pangaea. Fewer neighbors might give you a better shot at avoiding early annihilation. This concept might be hard enough to manage on Emperor, even, on a Pangaea.


- Sirian

I kind of enjoy playing these type of situations where every move has to be carefully thought out,
and even then cities can be lost on a bad streak of luck.

I've looked at the situation and it's really bad. We have 2 warriors, 3 archers, 6 spear,
and 3 sword (total 14). And its not like the're all in one stack ready to fight together, they're
all scattered among our 7 cities. There are 11 bab troops and 14 Chinese troops attacking and
those are just the ones I can see.

I call all the generals together for a briefing.

All right men, I want to lay out our strategy. There are 3 operations we are going to undertake.

"First is Operation Gold. We are going to lay our hands on every gold piece in the known world,
except for the Babs and the Chinese, who won't donate anything. We need this gold to train troops.
Our diplomats our going to handle this end of things."

"Next is Operation Pillage." The generals wake up, this is something they can understand. Pillage
enemy fields and mines to weaken them. However some look puzzled, knowing we don't even have the
troops to defend our home cities. One asks, "Sire, which troops are going out to pillage, and
where do they pillage", thinking these troops will be lucky just to get to where they can pillage.
"It doesn't matter, just pick a troop that's not busy at the moment. As to where, after carefully
studying the map, I think the tile due N of Kyoto will do nicely."

A gasp echoes around the room. "But sire, that is pillaging our own tile." Yes it is, we are
going put 3 workers and a troop of something on the tile and pillage and re-road it every turn.
Some generals mutter about goverment work programs in the middle of a crisis, and maybe they
should just execute the current leader on the spot and get it over with.

After some time the room calms down and Operation River Bank is introduced. "Where ever the
enemy can attack across the river, we will put troops on our side of the river and fortify there.
There is to be no attacking of enemy troops unless we have a clear advantage, let them impale
themselves on our spears and swords." The generals smiled since this is the one Operation that
makes sense to them.

The President was last heard discussing Operation Wall with his aids, an initiative to get every
frontline city with either walls, or up to size 7 or higher.

Good Luck cpp1!

JMB

PS - could you explain why you want to pillage the tile to the N of Kyoto to me? (for luring enemy troops?)

Good luck, cpp1. I hope you can hold on for a while. Charis, I know you're the captain, but we're all on this ship. If it gets to you and you get through your turns, pass it on. I'll keep firing shots, too, as long as I can draw breath. NO SURRENDER! I say we play it out the bitterest end.

Arathorn

P.S. Pillaging to cut off iron so we can build a warrior/turn? ???

You got it Arathorn. Its kind of a gimmick, but by pillaging and re-roading each turn, we can build a warrior a turn in Kyoto and a warrior every 2 turns in Edo. They then require 40g to upgrade to swords, which is why we need every penny. That's more efficient than normal rushing.

This situation reminds me of the story of the king and a convicted thief on death row. The king, being very fond of his horse, says to the thief, "If you can make my horse talk in one year, I'll set you free, otherwise I'll execute you". The thief says "I accept your offer." Later, when asked whether he thought he could make the horse talk, he said "Of course not, but in a year many things can happen. I could die, the king could die, the horse could die, or the horse might even learn to talk."

It looks hopeless, but we will never surrender, and who knows, what might happen. I probably will post tomorrow morning because I want to move carefully.

The Lurkers are 100% behind you guys !

Sirian is reminded of Epic 12 , I am reminded of RBE2 and the many times that game was threatened and looked hopeless... ;)

HOLD ON STRONG !
:slay:

Summary:

This is probably the hairiest 5 turns I have ever played. After my
preturn, the Babs made a determined attack on Osaka and killed 2 spear.
We had only 1 sword left there, and he had only 1hp. If Osaka goes,
we lose our iron, our link to Satsuma (with the Great library), and
the game. So I would say this game was hanging by 1hp.

They also killed 1 archer and 1 sword in an across-the-river attack,
without losing anything. Altogether, thats 4 of 14 troops (28%) killed
on the first between turns action. That's not 28% of an attacking stack
or a cities defenders, that's 28% of our entire military gone in 2 AI
attacks in the first between turns action.

Lux is at 40% due to WW. I think it might be prudent to change into
Monarchy (I don't think Despotism will support Kyoto and Edo) when
you get a chance (hehe).

I have just made peace with the Babs (470BC). I regard this as a temporary
cease fire to build up our strength before we destroy them. They razed
one of our cities (Shurr???) so we have no choice. They should start
moving out of our territory (I hope!).

Militarily, we're at the edge of disaster. "Thin" doesn't begin to
describe our defences. The only reason we're still here is because
we have iron to upgrade, the GL for tech, and are scraping together
every cent we can beg, borrow, or steal for upgrades.

The Chinese are still coming hot and heavy for Edo. The sword down there
can be upgraded next turn. Be careful on attacks, we just don't have
many units to lose.

Operation Pillage turned out to be a bust. Early I had NO troops to pillage
with. Later the timing didn't work out and after Feudalism came along it
was too expensive. Better to have Kyoto and Edo build real troops and save
the money for upgrades of existing troops.

I would urge any leaders to found cities on hills where ever possible. The
combo of hills and walls is powerful.

Preturn 550BC:

I look at the diplo situation.

Russia: even tech, 2g, wants iron (no way), at war with America
America: -mono, 6g, can only pay 6g and WM for mono, at war with Russia.
Korea: even tech, 13g, wants horses (yeah!), can pay WM + 13g + 7gpt
Mongols: -Curr, -Constr, -Republic, 1g, can only pay 1g + WM
Egypt: -mono, 16g, will pay 16g + WM for mono
Bab: refuse to talk
China: even tech, 85g, doubtful on peace

I make the following dubious trades, most I wouldn't normally do but
we need every cent.

Mono to America for 6g + WM
WM to Russia for 2g + WM
Horses to Korea for WM + 7gpt + 13g
(not needed for samurai and we have an extra)
WM to Mongols for WM + 1g
WM to Egypt for WM + 5g
Mono to Egypt for 11g

That's it, everyone is cleaned out of gold except Babs and China.
We end up with 74g and 24gpt after boosting lux to 20% for Kyoto.

Settler in Tokyo moves out while the moving is good, going to Edo.
(Tokyo could fall next turn).

Switch from spear in 6 at Tokyo to walls in 1.
Switch from sword in 6 at Osaka to walls in 1.
Switch from barrack in 4 at Satsuma to walls in 1.

Move 1hp vet sword and 4hp elite archer into Osaka from iron Mt for healing + defense.

Move elite spear from Osaka onto iron Mt. If that iron is
taken we are dead.

Move 2 spear from Kyoto to Osaka. Have to hold the city for iron
and for the link to Satsuma where the Great Library is.

Move warrior from Kagoshima to Kyoto for upgrade next turn.
Move warrior from Pisces to Kagoshima for upgrade later.

Galley peeks into Nanking and Nagoya. Reg spear guarding both.
At least there's no vet swords in there coming my way.

Edo and Pisces are left unguarded this turn.

(I)

We lose 2 spear in Osaka. We also lose 1 sword and 1 archer
south of Kyoto in an across the river attack. Did not win a single
battle. Bad RNG luck.

China building Sun Tzu.
Tokyo, Osaka, and Satsuma build walls.
Pisces build sword.

530BC:

We're down to 10 troops now. 1 warrior, 1 archer, 4 spear, 4 sword.
Can you believe fighting the world superpower and another civ on Deity
with only 10 troops?

Now there is a 1hp vet sword guarding Osaka, alone, facing 4 swords and 3 bowman.

Upgrade a warrior in Kyoto.
Sword at Pisces moves toward Kyoto.
Warrior at Kagoshima moves into Kyoto.
Operation Pillage is on hold, no extra troop to pillage with!
Vet sword from Kyoto kills China sword south of Kyoto. The only battle won so far.
Settler moves next to Edo, will merge into Edo next turn.
Vet spear moves from iron Mt to Osaka, leaving just elite spear to guard Mt.
Elite spear moves from Satsuma to Osaka, leaving nothing at Satsuma.
Move elite archer from Tokyo towards Kyoto.

Sell WM around for 5g

I send 2 workers off to Pisces to start mining iron in case we lose iron Mt.
Galley peeks in again, still no vet swords at Nagoya or Nanking.

(I)

Kill 3 Babs at Osaka and it holds.
Kill 1 Chinese at Tokyo, but next one captures Tokyo.
We master feudalism.
Babs start Sun Tzu.
Bab spear pillages our horses near Osaka.

510BC:

Sell WM around for 1g
"Close to a deal" for peace with Babs
China is insulted by peace deal.

I merge settler into Edo, now size 7.
Upgrade 2 spear in Osaka to pikes.
Upgrade sword in Kyoto to MDI.

(I)

America and Russia signed a peace treaty.
China and Babs moved around but no attacks.
Edo builds pike.
Kyoto builds MDI.

490BC:

MM Kyoto and Edo so Kyoto is at 15spt and Edo at 10spt.
This gets a pike in 2 turns at Kyoto and 3 turns at Edo.

I send a pike and MDI from Osaka to Satsuma. Satsuma is currently
undefended and there's a spear and sword right next to it. My pike
and MDI wave at the Babs as they pass by on the road.

The spear on iron MT comes in for an upgrade, the pike at Osaka takes
up iron Mt duties. The northern army consists of 3 pikes and 1 MDI
and is responsible for irom Mt, Osaka, and Satsuma.

If I can get 12g more, I can upgrade the spear and a sword this turn.
Pass around the WM for 4g.
Sell Feudalism to Egypt for 15g + WM
I upgrade the spear at Osaka to a pike and an elite sword in Kyoto to MDI.

A reg MDI from Kyoto attacks the Bab spear that pillaged the horses and
barely wins with 1hp left.

(I)
No attacks by Babs or China.
Russia, Egypt, and Korea are building Sun Tzu.

470BC:

Our vet MDI from Satsuma attacked a Bab spear + sword stack and won with
no losses, promoting to elite.

I decide to move the workers from the forest so they won't be captured
by the archer across the river. They should move back ASAP and complete
a road there so troops can make it from Kyoto to Edo in one turn.

I check the rules on peace. The Babs have razed Shurr??? a city Arathorn
got, so can we make peace with them. I decide its OK, as long as we regard
it as a temporary cease fire, to build up strength to destroy the Babs.

I make peace with the Babs and we exchange WMs as part of the deal. I sell
his WM to America for 1g, that's all anyone will pay. Every cent counts.

Comments:

I sent workers to hook up the iron at Pisces as a backup source. There's
another worker at Satsuma doing general improvement.

There is a stack of workers near Edo trying to road a forest that will let
troops get from Kyoto to Edo in 1 turn. They were chased off last turn, but
try to get them back ASAP to complete that road.

The Chinese messed up my MM of Edo so it only produced 8 shields last turn.
I've got it back to 10spt but you never know where the Chinese are going next.
The MDI just outside of Kyoto is a reinforment for Edo. It can't make it all
the way to Edo in 1 turn, so I just moved it far enough, in case it have to go
back to Kyoto for some reason.

Our galley is doing nothing in particular. It's cruising along our southern coast
in case China tries an amphibious invasion.

Save File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-470bc.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-470bc.jpg

Well, while we might be on the very doorstep of death itself, that went MUCH better than expected. We still have iron and the Great Library -- **really** good job cpp!! :goodjob:

I'm glad the pillaging failed. Iron is our key. We need to inflict enough pain for China to give free peace, *period*. If we lose two warriors to one archer, he'll want more for peace, not less.

I'll do what I can here, but it's still dire. We're gonna be defiant as long as we draw breath!! The religious people of Japan are now praying for Chivalry and *Samurai*

'got it'
Charis

PS the 'going down with the ship' comment was based on how it looked from the screenshot and earlier comments. When I saw we had Feudalism, could yet build walls, and that there was a small chance Samurai could appear soon, I realized there might be an outside, very outside, chance here.

Charismeiji, back from exile, feels a personal pain at what he has done
to his people, and vows to bring victory against the dogs of China.
The thing that is MOST sad in his sight is the loss of Tokyo. They will
be avenged. On the plus side, Kyoto and Edo are full sized cities and well
defended. (Er... scratch that, Kyoto has a single warrior) Can he kill enough
units to bring pain to China?!

[0] 470 BC - At Osaka, work the mountains instead of horse for quicker pike.
Hmm, the units around Edo now are not their best. Let's cause some pain.
Elite archer vs sword... We redline, but....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Hirohito-470BC.jpg

HIROHITO!!!! Come to save us!!!
(btw, LOL, this is payback for me 'missing' Tojo earlier this game :lol: )

And right now we have just enough cities to make an army. Ack! A Samurai army
would win the day, but we won't have 3 spare Samurai for who knows how long.
Pike goes out to cover the archer. Pike from Osaka runs to Kyoto, Pike from
Satsuma runs to Osaka, where we will run back and trade with MDI next turn :P


(IBT) Their archer does not attack, but pillages. The other swords move SE towards
Edo.

[1] 450 BC - The Babs stepped up to the hill next to Tokyo, they're not going to
attack the Chinese there, are they?? World maps sold around.

Tough call on the leader. SunTzu would be extremely sweet, but if the city falls or
we lose the game, senseless. An army would be nice, albeit of limited value with the
units we could throw in there. Let's see what's coming at us- two archers and a
warrior immediately, then 3 archers and 2 swords, then 3 sword, archer, warr.
At or coming to Edo we have 1 sword, 1 MDI, 1 pike, 1 archer. One or two more pikes
could come from Kyoto. This round we need to attack the 1-def units before they
are covered. That precludes making an army just yet.

Two MDI's attack the weak defenders and win. Then sword vs the last archer, we
win and promote. Archer retreats to city, and two pikes cover the sword in forest.

That's all for now. China is now at 'doubt' level, not insulted! That's still not
'close', in fact over 200g worth away.

(IBT) They make no attacks, not wanting to tangle with two pikes in the forest.

[2] 430 BC - Ok, next to Edo are two swords, three archers. One step back are
(gulp) 7 swords, 2 archers, 1 warr. We need to inflict PAIN!

MDI lays down the smack on a Chinese sword, promoting to elite.
Sadly, we don't have enough fresh offensive units to do more. We heal up, bracing
for the upcoming onslaught. With one shield short of a pike due to the AI movement,
we swap Edo to MDI and mm to make it due next turn.

(IBT) Three chinese units attack. I'm sitting here chanting "Hold! Hold! HOLD!!"
Our pike wins, promoting to elite. Second pike wins, then newly promoted one...
wins vs an archer! YES!! (China still won't come to peace)

[3] 410 BC - The problem is... even more units move up, and our defenders are all hurt.
Next door, 7 Swords, 3 arch, 1 warr next to our city, and a step back,
here come the MDI. Just one though, with an archer and warr. Charismeiji ponders...
We could attack with four, getting a little more hurt, fortify against the ten
attackers, or make an army of MDI (which can only attack once per round).
Charismeiji decides that to dish out the most pain, with few units, he can't fill one.

We build army but not to fill it, to allow a chance for another leader. SunTzu would
just look idiotic if we lose the game/city now, and SO close to Samurai, I will wait
until a Samurai, or true desperation, to fill it. MDI beats sword, promotes.
Elite MDI and archer both beat swords. Tough call...
China is still talking tough (9gpt away from free)

(IBT) In the field we win 1, lose 2. Held off *5* at Edo, lost two.
Korea demands tribute. HA!!!! We spit in his face. He declares war. We're very, very
glad he's on another continent. (This is probably due to our 'pulled goalie' defense.

[4] 390 BC - Our Cleaning Squad, now an MDI, beats down their single injured MDI.
On offense, we lose our archer, but wipe out a stack of three swords.
China hangs tight, but now just 7gpt from free peace.

China has Chivalry!!? If someone else gets it quickly, that means Samurai.
If *NOT* we'll face riders and it's ALL OVER.

(IBT) We trade an MDI in the field. Then his galley attacks our and we win.

WE MASTER CHIVALRY!!!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Chivarly-390BC.jpg

Now I seldom show a picture just for a new tech, but I yelled a cheer out loud
on seeing this arrive! :D

[5] 370 BC - I am REALLY sorry to have upgraded Cleaning squad now. No money to rush
a Samurai. Hey, there's only FOUR Chineese units near us now. We outnumber and outgun
them! Darn flat broke AI can't pay for this new tech either. Hosemen upgrade to
Samurai, I wish we had one or two around.

We lose to an unfortified warrior and promote him?? Ouch! Then we kill that warr and
one other, with MDI. Next we try a new kind of pressure on China. We move up
next to their city! Nagoya now has a pike and sword upon it.

(IBT) Ouch, we lose two.

[6] 350BC - Counterattacking their hurt guys, we win two, and have more units next to
Nagoya. One more archer killed. Two promotions to elite this round.

(IBT) Two archers attack us, losing both, and we promote on one.

[7] 330 BC - We are withing *20g* of peace with China! Elite sword wins. Elite MDI
goes against Nagoya and...

The city is once again OURS! [dance]

China will give all their treasury (60g) for peace. But not Tokyo!

This a matter for our NEXT leader to decide. Peace now, build up a Samurai
army (literally), or keep going and retake Tokyo before peace?? Both options
have strong advantages, look over the map carefully. We may not even have enough
to keep Nagoya. If it were to fall again... (shudder) it would take a LOT to
make China accept peace again, plus Riders can't be far away. My vote would be peace
(cease fire), with an aim toward shoring up defenses, Samurai army, then new limited
war when China presses or otherwise, to retake Tokyo.

Keep in mind we have *3* empty cities, and war with Korea. Theres a Chinese
galley that might swim past Edo next turn. Our galley is healing this round.
The empty army sleeps in Edo, awaiting a Samurai! (Others may have chose differently
on making the army, and since I didn't get another leader I can't refute it, but
that was a REALLY tough call under the worse battle conditions. We'll just have to
go out and take SunTzu someday :P )

Osaka's iron needs a pike ASAP. I truly couldn't spare one for that this round.
Osaka is working odd tiles this turn to get the pike out now. Edo wishes it could
work forests, but the commerce loss would make it unhappy. The Babylon troops have
been ignored, frankly. They sat a turn or two, then started to make genuine efforts
to leave our territory. It looks like they are heading west in large numbers, perhaps
for a war against China. If they show no guff, I would leave them alone, (I don't
want to be the suicidal assinine defiant nationalists :P ) especially if they end
up fighting China. Have no doubt though, their razing of Japanese city WILL mean
they must all die! We need to get our undefended cities covered asap too, or face
yet another tribute demand.

The decision on whether to drop out of Republic will depend on the peace decision.

I'm passing off now, with victory over China accomplished.
We're still in REALLY deep peril! Imagine a Babylon tribute demand now.

Save File RBP5 330BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP5-Meiji-330_BC.zip)

Good luck!!
Charismeiji (back from Exile baby!!!!)

3 cheers for da man! I knew Charismeiji was the perfect man for this hairy situation! I think Jaxomeiji is up, consider this my got it. If I am mistaken, then ignore the got it.

Great turn Charis! :) Way to go!

We're still alive and kicking, if only barely. So far I've been at war the entire time for my 2 turns. It'll be interesting to see how many turns of peace we actually get in this game.

I remember from LOTR2 that we had empty armies hanging around also, because we couldn't afford to lose the attacks by putting units in armies. It'll probably be a while before we can fill an army with samurai.

I was also exhausted after playing last night and this morning. There is a lot of tension and constant critical decisions that have to be made. When Feudalism was discovered, that gave me a critical edge in combat, as long as I had the money for upgrades.

Peace with China seems desirable for several reasons. One is we can remove war weariness and possibly lower our lux tax. Also, it'd be nice to not be at war with China in case Babylon decides to re-declare war. I think an empty Osaka must be pretty tempting to Babylon.

I'm surprised Korea declared war. We had an ongoing deal with them where we gave horses and they gave 7 gpt, which it looks like they broke.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I like peace now. Having just ONE front, to put all our units at, has helped us immensely (after peace with Babs). Trying to defend Nagoya AND move on Tokyo would split troops we don't have.

As you noted, Feudalism was what has kept us alive here. Which means the Great Library has hands down been the best thing to happen to us (oh mighty Tojo!) We REALLY have to make sure Satsuma doesn't fall. Out of desperation, yes, I pulled its goalie, but that needs to be reversed asap.

Empty cities are like a "DEMAND TRIBUTE FROM ME!!!" sign hanging up in the window. In retrospect, I wonder if our gained city of Shuruppuk (which comes empty) was what set China off to think he should demand tribute. I have almost no doubt it's the empty cities that goaded Korea.

Also, it's been several turns since the Korean conflict started. If one of the upcoming turn they land a boat next to Pisces or another city, we'll not only have no way to stop them, but what we'll have to do to inflict enough pain will be brutal! If we can defend them, and smack down the 2 to 4 units that land, that pain enough will work for peace!

Charis

PS To those wondering if (or convinced) I was off my rocker, the reason behind this game was that I *DID* play 'no guff' (idential to this game unti nationalism arrives, where we pick up extra rules.) On Emperor diff, middle of a pangaea as FRANCE, surrounded by all military civs. I *destroyed* them, and won by domination. It was an extremely fun game, and I thought that on deity, in a corner, with a FAR better civ, it was playable. I still think it is. We got lulled a bit into thinking we were doing better than we were, pressing against the Babs. My huge focus in the emp game was to start with a very few number of cities, but have them all with barracks and plenty of defenders. I settled no cities really past my core 5. I made the cap and ring of 4 strong, got some guff, got into war, and gained territory not by settling but by capturing. (Not allowed here) I wish I remember now if I was Draconian about foreigners in my land, or loose. To be honest, it was probably loose. If they move a single unit through the outskirts, I kept on eye on him. If he sent a settler pair through, or a larger force, I did however tell him to get lost.

Glorious! Simply Glorious! We lurkers watching this game with interest bow down before the superior strength of the Meiji Emperors! :worshp:

With both this game and RBE6 looking up, we just may get through this crop of succession games without a loss. Even the insane Koreans game is still alive and kicking - but of course there's also plenty of time still to go in all these games. ;) At the very least, the competition to see which succession game will be the first one to lose is once again up for grabs! :crazyeye:

Jaxomeiji lets out a sigh at the sight of our nation. Gone is the dream of a peaceful retreat in Ellipi. A short discussion with Mao reveals that he would pay us 60 golds and 2gpt to stop the onslaught of Chinese troops. I accept, taking note that Tokyo will have to be liberated in the near future. Satsuma, home of the Great Library, is trying to build a barracks. Behind the walls, a regular pikeman will be much more useful in deterring hostile attempts. Iron is sold to Russia for 28 golds to help them mount a proper defense in case China decides to turn their way. We don't want to see China absorb Russia (shudder). This cash, along with the Chinese peace settlement, allows to rush a pike in Pisces and in Kagoshima so that we will have no more empty cities on the next turn.



310 BC Osaka pikeman -> pikeman, Pisces pikeman -> catapult, Kagoshima pikeman -> catapult.

290 BC Our first Samurai hits the field. Kyoto begins another one.

270 BC ...
250 BC ...

230 BC Osaka pikeman -> pikeman.

210 BC Engineering and Theology comes out of the GL. Pisces catapult -> harbor, Kagoshima catapult -> catapult, Edo samurai -> samurai, Satsuma catapult -> catapult.

190 BC Kyoto samurai -> samurai. Wang Kong is willing to talk but he wants 140 golds for peace. I wonder how we will bring that price down without going to Korea. Genghis requests Feudalism and receives the finger, he vows to destroy us.

170 BC ...
150 BC Osaka samurai -> samurai
130 BC ...



Jaxomeiji leaves the nation with 3 samurai adn 3 catapults on the fields, and 2 more of each to come out soon. Furthermore, all cities now have at least one defender, so does both mountains near Osaka. We need more workers, but whatever happens now, at least we have the basic strength to defen ourselves.

Here is the save at the end of 130 BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5_meiji_bc0130.zip)

It's *SO* nice to see a turn where the following words were not used:

dire... hopeless... handcuffed... lose... disemboweled...

:goodjob:

I got real scared on your post for a minute, selling the iron. I thought you meant our ONLY iron, which would not serve the Samurai greater cause :P Having two is nice, iron sells VERY well even late in the game.

Bummer on the psuedo-war tributes. I hope they come over, let us bop 2 units on the head and call for peace. Even better if they send a slow weak stream and let us fish for leaders! :p

As far as Korea is concerned, they have TWO cities in 'South China'. Pyongsong and Taejon. Our galley could reach the shore down there in 3 turns (1 in Chinese waters), and Samurai attacking in on the third round after that. It's not like we have two samurai to spare on a wild goose chase right now. But if the war drags waaaaay on, that's one way to end it.

By all means get (probably) two Samurai in that army and use it to get a victory so we can build the Heroic Epic asap, as soon as we see a foe land. The only real downside to long ongoing wars is if/when they bring in an allly or trade embargo. Besides that, the other civ is locked in war mode and ignores infrastructure to their own detriment.

A thought, although it could be more weedy than anything else - we could settle a city west of Tokyo, say RIGHT next to those horses up two and over one from Nagoya! It would deny their horses and put huge cultural pressure on Tokyo. The flip side is dual: China actually has a tad more culture than we do, and the aggressive settlement might get us into a war where we could not well defend that city. Just a thought....

Arathorn << UP
Architect << On deck
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom

Good luck to our next leader (Arathorn)
Charis

Jaxom: I love hearing about those samurai and catapults! Wish I'd had some of those during my last turn.

Charis: I have a question on Tokyo. I'm pretty sure it has grown since I lost it, which means it has Chinese citizens in it. Should we raze it because of foreign nationals, or do we keep it (assuming we capture it)?

If we do have to raze it, I would vote for planting a new city on the middle incense mountain. When we go after the Babs, we want to have a defensive line against the Chinese and that would be a good anchor point. Also, its only 1 turn travel from Kyoto.

I see this and "got it"...hopefully tonight but no promises. RL has been tough lately.

Arathorn

There is really no doubt that "Tokyo" is a Japanese city, and always will be. It will have foreigners in it, which we won't be able to remove by starving without hurting our own people. Also, Tokyo DID and still does have Japanese culture in it due to our temple there. The temple disappears, but the culture does not, when it it captured.

The nice thing is... when you capture or recapture a city, over time the foreign element is 'assimilated'. I don't know the rate and I've never noticed it, but that saves face for us here. The other non-starving option we have would be to crank workers continutally from the city (running no growth) until there were no more foreigners there. If we do that, remember that the native laborers come off first, and the foreigners after that, until you're left with one native worker.

Good luck Arathorn,
Charis

Just now read through the whole harrying weekend of turns. Great work everybody! Hanging on by a thread is still hanging on.

Shuruppak was NOT undefended when China made his demands of me. Actually, China demanded before I made peace with Babylon, so it wasn't even our city. We had forces right next to the city and it had 2 spear defenders the turn we made peace with Babylon.

Mongols and Koreans, huh? OK. Hopefully, I can get a bit of infrastructure (marketplaces, anyone?) done, so that we don't fall to desperately behind. 6 cities ain't much, so we have to maximize their output.

Arathorn

Not really, but not too bad. Korea managed to land 3 transports worth of troops at various times. I'd been tracking them in, though, so they all immediately died.

The first boatload led to a promoted samurai and our Golden Age. OK, so only 6 cities isn't the best, but any boost we can at this point is appreciated. The second boatload saw....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-fujiwara.jpg

Fujiwara was immediately moved to Kyoto, where he inspired the building of a grand workshop -- the better to improve our troops with in the future. Invention, you see, had recently been found in the Great Library, making such an achievement possible. Sun Tzu's War Academy had, unfortunately, already been completed by the evil Chinese and was no longer an option. Massive cascade to Sistine ensued both times.

Education also came out of the library, one turn before Gunpowder was shopped, so we're down a tech already.

Income went from ~30 to ~140 gpt. This is due in a large part to the Golden Age, but a few well-placed marketplaces didn't hurt matters at all. For some inexplicable reason, the Arameiji family did not load any samurai into the army to get a victory to at least give the option of building the Heroic Epic, should another GL appear.

The Koreans are up to "doubtful" for peace, but all 3 visible galleys are empty.

China declared war on Russia fairly early in my turns (I think I only played 9, but 50AD seemed a logical place to stop). That might make them ripe for a small attack.

Pros:
- Get spices and excess ivory again (two cities)
- Should get paid for peace
- Most of their offensive troops will be sent against Russia, probably
- Add cities to our core area for greater production

Cons:
- Might show us as weak and get more tribute demands
- Would make getting free or better peace from Korea/Mongols harder
- Might get us smacked down

I visualize possibly retaking Tokyo and razing their spice city, planting our own.

One could make a similar argument for an attack against the Babylonians, but they're not at war with anyone else and have less immediately-available goods to gain. Of course, they did raise our city of Shurruppak and have to be destroyed at some point.....

Good luck, Architect! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-50ad.zip)

Arathorn

Edit There seems to be a problem with the upload server right now. I'll try again soon with the picture and the savefile and then go to another approach if it doesn't work fairly soon.

So, well, I got the picture to upload, but apparently my floppy has a bad sector or something, because I can't access the zip file with the save at all. I'll put that up this afternoon/evening, once I get home to my PC where I have it saved.

Arathorn

OK. It should be uploaded to

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbp5-50ad.zip

which was the earlier address, too, I think (not checked). Everything's ready to go now.

Arathorn

I got it.