View Full Version : TSG13 After Action Report

leif erikson
May 30, 2011, 04:08 PM
Hi everyone and welcome to the TSG13 After Action Report thread. In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state victory date and score (preferably in the post title), as recorded in the Hall of Fame, and the most important: your path to glory!

Please use the Civ5 game submission page ( to submit your final, first play through, .Civ5Save file, saved AFTER the victory ceremony if you were not conquered (using the "Lemme play one more turn" feature.).

Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game. Some players like to replay the game, and although we will not record the results from a replay, you can still post your new experiences (please state if the game is a replay). The game will not be closed as such, but after two weeks, the results will be compiled, and will not necessarily be updated with reports coming in after the closing date.

May 31, 2011, 11:16 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-05-31
Reference number: 24305
Your name: Monthar
Game status: Diplomacy Loss
Game date: 1935AD
Turns played: 355
Base score: 469
Final score: 469
Time played: 4:03:00
Submitted save: TSG13_Lost_Diplo.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Monthar_C501301.Civ5Save

Most of my write-up is in the in progress thread, so I won't repeat it here. When I started up the game again, I played a few turns before Arabia took two of my four cities. He took the city with oil then the city with horses. This left me with my capital that was working aluminum and my city that was settled on the iron next the the mountain.

I still had some hope of building up to retake those cities, until I saw the UN go up.

May 31, 2011, 04:07 PM
Played the Legalism Abuse Strategy as posted here

Got 4 cities with Wats at turn 90. So far so good.
However, only got to the Apollo Program at turn 219.
Finished at turn 321.

I didn't made good use of the after Wat strategy, which is either making use of science by city states or chasing or chasing Democracy for extra Scientists.

However, fun game.

Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1901AD
Turns played: 321
Base score: 962
Final score: 1503
Time played: 3:13:00

May 31, 2011, 04:27 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-05-31
Reference number: 24307
Your name: StrideColossus
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1997AD
Turns played: 417
Base score: 757
Final score: 912
Time played: 7:25:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0417 AD-1997.Civ5Save
Renamed file: StrideColossus_C501301.Civ5Save

Way way from a good game but a win nevertheless, despite my attempts to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the end.

Didn't try any clever tactics and played 'old school' by building an empire rather than conquering one from someone else. Had to accept a humiliating peace deal with the Eqyptians that were racing away in order to complete the last bit of the spaceship (the bit I thought I'd already made!)

Was a good fun game, thanks.

Lots of tedious notes for those that enjoy reading others mistakes/thoughts:


Settle 1 NW for slightly better resources after checking nothing better with warrior.
Start with Mining for the gems, then Pottery and Writing, aiming for Great Library.
Build scout then worker which should dove-tail nicely with the techs.
After that Animal Husbandry for the numerous cows and Sailing for the pearls.

Scout heads west and finds ruins for a map, capital is on an inland sea.
Start GL in capital.
Meet Rome whose borders we could see via a map from ruins.
Also meet America.
Get Masonry from ruins, nice, handy for the marble we can see and all that marsh to the east.
Seems to be plenty of room at this point, only met 3 civs, perhaps we're on a continent?
Identify 4 good city spots and decide we go for expansion after the GL.
SP - Tradition, Liberty (considered Aristocracy), Collective Rule.

Decide will go for Wheels and Horseback Riding as there are horses E and W, rather than waiting for Bronze and Iron Working.
Scout takes out a half-dead brute in a camp near a yet unmet CS, can't return until we actually meet them though, keep it then.
Free settler heads to the horse spot to the E, realise later there are TWO horses there doh.

Complete GL, choose Philosophy.
Build another settler then Oracle.

First GA.

Found third city also on inland sea for marble and whales, and yet more cows.
Start BW and IW.
Capture another worker from a camp, nice.

Complete Oracle and choose Legalism to expand new cities, discount Piety cos we're aiming for a science victory.
2 x iron W of capital on outside coast, no more :(
Losing gold now, Trapping next for trading posts.
Consolidate then fourth city on iron.
Then maybe more cities east towards China, who has already established city on pinch-point to rest of the continent.
Citizenship for Representation later and maybe Meritocracy.

Meet Egypt and India but not sure where, guessing on other half of the continent.

Change plan and settle fourth city E for another gems and 3 x spices for trade.
Bee-line Chivalry for our unique unit.

Rome declares war, didn't see that coming, he was friendly.
We have 3 x warrior, a horse and 2 x archers.
He has roughly the same but also allied Venice.
Was building walls in eastern border cities anyway.
Get a GS to buld Chivalry.
Kill most of his units without loss and he offers straight peace.

Found fifth city for the iron.
We are second in score.
+14GPT +20CPT
Plan is markets and sell luxuries for city states.

Adopt Patronage.

Start Porcelain Tower in capital for another science wonder.
Finally connect iron, bit late now to be honest.

Bucharest first CS allied, good move cos Rome attacks again next turn.
CS does a good job but situation tricky in marble city, kill most of his units only losing one horse.

Meet Japan.
Rome offers straight peace again, accept.
Unhappy now, building colloseums in main cities.

Adopt Philanthropy, ally Seoul for incense and also borders Rome.
Ally Florence later, 3 x cultural CS.
+56GPT +61CPT

Complete Porcelain Tower, bulb Astronomy.
Start Wat in capital, almost complete in other cities.
Get a GS for Navigation.

Rome attacks AGAIN, Seoul kicks his arse.
Stat Oxford in capital.
Gathering cash for CS bribes and upgrades, then on offensive?
We have no catapults though and no more iron, hmmm.
Again he offers peace for G and GPT and we accept.
Adopt Rationalism later.
+77GPT +92CPT

Another GA.
Start Chemistry for cannons so we have some barrage.
Complete Oxford.
Realise Stockholm had x8 iron duh!
Adopt Trade Unions and get a measly +4GPT improvement WTF, am I missing something?

Washington declares on Rome and we move in, he notices troops and we admit we're NOT passing through.
Stupid Egyptian scout sitting on the most strategic point not doing anything - get out of the bloody way.
We attack along west coast of the inland sea, Rome attacks marble city.
Get GG who joins the fun.

Rome offers peace again - no dice.
Take Antium and puppet, naughty Rome not improved the x2 whales!
Cannons on the way for Rome itself.
Poor scout killed on auto-explore in the sea.
Kill a Roman GG who was sitting in the sea for some reason.
Start National College in capital, should almost certainly have built libraries earlier.
Adopt Secularism.
+167SCI +56GPT +114CPT

Rome falls.
Workers connecting two parts of the empire.
Aiming for Scientific Theory.
Get another GG which we use use for another GA.
Still in second place.

Take and puppet Cumae, Rome is out, ta ra.
Ally Singapore, now x6 CS allies, x4 cultural x2 maritime, would like Venice as well but they hate our guts.
America declares next turn FFS.
Only has minutemen and some old trash, wipe most of them out with a couple of losses.
Japan comes and tells us we're weak and is now hostile, denounces us next turn WTF!?
Complete Sci Theory - no coal. This was to prove a real problem later on.
America offers peace later and we accept, need to consolidate again.

Adopt Free Thought as we have a lot of trading posts now, workers converting farms in Roman lands.
Upgrade elephants to cavalry.
Heading for Rifling.

Japan attacks our ally Singapore, too far away / risky to help, he gives up later after losing several units.
Adopt Scholacism to help science.

Electricity comes in and we have x8 aluminium next to the capital already mined, nice.
Start Railroad so workers have something to do.
Struggling for happiness and can't make any deals, only Arabia friendly now, start Circus Maximus in capital.
Egypt enters Modern era!

Ally Venice (finally), hopefully they'll stop fighting their enemies Seoul as I'm tired of watching them slug it out.
Denounced by China - whoops, they were protecting Venice, tough.
Start Flight, focussing on defence now.

Egypt complete Manhattan eek!
Cultural Diplomacy improves our happiness from +1 to +11, should have done that MUCH earlier.
Another personality flip, Egypt was friendly and suddenly declares - what did I do?
Attacks the AI's favourite target - marble city.
CS help to decimate his cannons and infantry.
He asks for silly peace (all my cash and all my resources!), get lost.
On the contrary we are on the offensive for an Egyptian city on MY inland sea.
Take it a few turns later and puppet.
Enter Modern era a few turns later.
Won't accept peace though at any price, he really doesn't like us.

Another wave with a tank this time, just picking him off.

Adopt Meritocracy, mainly cos never tried it before.
Singapore finally falls awww.

Adopt Order.
Researching technologies for production/food/research bonuses but avoiding space ones, don't want to give game away.
We also have Globalisation soon and cultural victory as back-ups.
Stupidly lose a Frigate that was auto-exploring. That's twice now.
Use a GE for Christo Redentor.
+704SCI +56GPT +164CPT

Egypt completes Apollo, we are not even close!
Completed RR network and delete a few workers.
For reasons of OCD decide don't like long, expensive road along west of inland sea and start removing it, breaking trade routes!
Thought we had road on east side, we don't! Worker rushes over to patch things up.
Should probably have just built harbours.

Now the coal problem really kicks in: realise can't build nuclear plants or spaceship factory without a normal factory.
Solar plants only good in deserts, and hydro only on rivers, damn damn.
But still dither around without attempting to get coal.
Egypt builds SS cockpit!
+734SCI +66GPT +165CPT

Start Apollo.
Consider attacking America for more gold but would probably screw what relationships we have.
Arabia also completes Apollo.

Eventually complete a horrible deal with Arabia to get coal.
Start factory in main production city and will buy in capital shortly.
Egypt nukes the two Chinese cities close to us and takes their capital!
Move military to east as that's where the threat is going to come from.
GM gives us the cash to buy factory.
Two cities will build SS parts, switching other cities to gold focus / wealth.
Should probably have done this some time ago as we don't need all the CS we have.
No need for more culture, can't get that victory now I don't think.
Don't need the science bonus as we've almost researched everything we need.
Could have saved cash been using for bribes to buy factories and other production buildings.
Realise not flogged old buildings we don't need, start doing so now.
Use our GG for another GA.

India out.
Complete Apollo.
Enter Future era, start Nanotech for the last SS tech we need.
We have actually over-shot research, production of SS parts is way behind the techs, could have been much more optimal.
Attempt to defend Shanghai the pinch-point city but Egypt gets there first and takes it, damn.
Later we take it and put almost all military nearby, Mech Infantry, Artillery and Fighters.
After flogging buildings +162GPT.

Egypt nukes our easternmost city!

Complete cockpit, start booster 1 in capital, booster 2 in production city.
Dreading more nukes.

Start statis chamber in 2nd city, buy SS factory. Now synchronised nicely with capital.
Get a GE but they can't hurry SS parts, doh! USe him for GA.
Egypt nukes marble city.
Another 2 nukes in the next couple of turns.

ARGH realise we're missing a booster, idiot, another 7 turns to go.
And there's a UN vote coming up and we've let our CS allies lapse.
Save and have a think over a pint at this point: desparate times call for desparate measures.
We can't get reasonable peace from Egypt, and in any case he's decimated our military so anyone else could probably mash us even if we did.
But we do have a fair stash of cash, so we bribe as many of our old allies back into the fold.
This should prevent a UN loss, and not give the cash to Egypt.
Ask for peace, he accepts at all our resources and all cities except the capital, 2nd city and Rome.
We accept the humiliating war reparations - we have no choice.
UN vote in 1993 and we are joint first, no winner.
He can't attack and we complete the last SS part.

1997 (turn 417)
Science victory (just), score 757, HoF 912, rank: Hoover.
Not much point relating the demographics due to the peace deal.

Lessons Learnt:
- When at war, stop auto-exploring units.
- Can't return capture workers to civs/CS that you haven't met, which sometimes is handy.
- If you're missing strategic resources, alter the plan / find CS that have it, don't just idle along.
- For late-age games, sell obsolete/redundant buildings as soon as you no longer need them.
- Don't break trade routes!
- Don't over-shoot the mark like we did with science, when what we needed was production.

Jun 01, 2011, 09:40 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-01
Reference number: 24312
Your name: numaru7
Your email: -
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1949AD
Turns played: 370
Base score: 1409
Final score: 1930
Time played: 4:08:00
Submitted save: TSG13_Turn 369+1_space WIN.Civ5Save
Renamed file: numaru7_C501301.Civ5Save

Well, i never do good in the Gotm's so this time i decided i'm gonna be agressive. So i settled near the pearls/gems - which was a good decision. Then used the policy settler and 2 more to settle NE of the marble , then between the spices, cow and gems east of the capital, and the 4-th on the coast east of the third city near the cow 1 hex away from the river. I just did that to buy out hexes with the gems/cows/iron on the other side of the canal. It Annoyed Zetian to no end but she never declared war on me in this one.

In the meantime i build 6 warriors and an archer and what do you know...rome declares war...beat him to a pulp, refuse the first peace, then accept the second one for 1000 and take on of his cities, Antium, that was on the west of his capital and also had 6 iron in the first hexes. upgrade all the warriors and build some more swords to a max of 8. America declares war on rome then ME...again i take a second peace offering for 1000, return with no casualties and upgrade to swords.
I go back and attack a full screen of units -pikes actually - were he got those is a mystery to me and he just kept dishing them out...but with patience and 8 swords and 1 horseman i slowly decimated him . Took his only city for myself. This also gave me coal for afterwards.

Also, Venice was always an ally because of what i did for them, after and after i took out Rome too, i had the other CS's on my side too. Had to deal with lacking cult investments somehow.
I have 4 cities that i build, 2 puppets and Washington DC that i made into the bank - that sucker had +150 with a stock exchange in the end.

Avoided other wars because i was afraid of attacking over that canal, Japan and Arabia build some 4 cities around Washington though but...meh...who cares.

By the end some others succeeded to make some spaceship parts too, especially Arabia with 4, but everyone was warring everyone else so...that's prob why i could get away with it. Also in the end i had permanent golden ages and +350/turn with 9 allied CS's with the Patronage Branch all filled out. Other branches needed only 1 to be complete Tradition, Liberty, Freedom

All in all, i was swimming in money and i made just a few RA's but kept the pace in tech because of patronage+CS's , but i could have made a lot more RA's and i think i could have finished before 1900. I'm not good at anything but WAR, so i'm satisfied with myself.

Jun 01, 2011, 02:26 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-01
Reference number: 24315
Your name: Osner
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1902AD
Turns played: 322
Base score: 1376
Final score: 2150
Time played: 5:01:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0322 AD-1902.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Osner_C501301.Civ5Save

Nice game, popped Empire of the East achievement (38% unlocked at 328 hrs played) - did the insta-wat thing with my three cities, but not beelined directly to Universities. I researched other technologies in my usual way aimed at developing three cities. One next to gems between hills luxuries and one north to get whales and marble.

Did a lot of trading to pay for the favor of surrounding maritime and cultured city states. At some point Rome declared war, which it should not have done. I conquered one city in our first war and after ten minutes interbellum to modernise my army conquered and slaved them.

Had a tech lead during most of the game, making research agreement expensive at some point. USA declared war after signing a very expensive one with me. Still cannot understand that particular AI strategy. Slaved two of its cities and continued in peace to race through the technology tree build the space parts.

Jun 02, 2011, 07:52 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-02
Reference number: 24321
Your name: CapnBarcode
Your email: ...
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1934AD
Turns played: 354
Base score: 1713
Final score: 2447
Time played: 6:49:00
Submitted save: TSG13_Win_0354 AD-1934.Civ5Save
Renamed file: CapnBarcode_C501301.Civ5Save

I tried the legalism abuse strategy,setting my first city 1 NW of the start, cities to the east on the gems and near the marble/whales, and 1 city west at the base of the peninsula. Maybe not ideal siting -- it took me about 105 turns to get the wats, getting legalism the turn that I finished the last temple. That was about the last RA I was able to get, either due to lack of AI cash or the AI breaking agreements via DOW. Hit rocketry around turn 250, I think.

Policy-wise, I think I would've been better off taking scholasticism earlier. After finishing the policies needed for wats, with a spacer because the temples weren't finished when I had my first shot at legalism, I opened patronage and then moved over to grab all of rationalism before coming back up to scholasticism. When I finally got that policy, it bumped me from about 590 beakers to 850 beakers.

War-wise, Washington was never a problem, although he finally got annoying enough that I took him out near the end of the game (mech inf vs minutemen) just to stop losing deals. Usually every time he declared, my CS allies were enough to keep him contained. Aside from George... Rome's first DOW was during the run-up to wats, and I thought I was doomed, but despite having iron he only showed up with an archer and a few warriors, which I was able to run off with my existing forces. I rushed a pike just to be sure. Second time, I had longswords and elephants. Took his city at the north end of the inland sea, was preparing to take Rome, when China declared. Rome gave me his other city and lots of cash so that I could run back and gut China -- I took four cities including Beijing, selling the farthest one to Arabia since I wasn't prepared to defend it and the happiness penalty was crushing. After Arabia finished off India and China, Harun and I settled into a cold war around Beijing. Harun went hostile right as I was getting Rocketry, so I had to go back to get Rifling in order to upgrade my archers and pikemen to infantry. Cold war went hot when he stole the Chinese gold with a culture bomb and I went off on him. Probably shouldn't have done that, since I had a smaller military and had to spend way too many hammers and gold on my army, but they were mech inf so it worked out. I took 4 cities (one that I had sold him earlier) and he sued for peace. That was the end of my wars, other than the aforementioned gutting of Washington just to shut him up. :P

Jun 02, 2011, 07:33 PM
Finished it in 333 turns. Quickly expanded to 3 cities and went for scholasticism ASAP. I went liberty, collective rule, citizenship, worked my way to scholasticism, meritocracy, used legalism to get Wats, and then went down the left side of the rationalism tree. I was quite surprised at the rate I was getting policies. Must of been that most of my city states were cultural. Was at peace until mech infantry, when I decided to make a bunch and roll somebody over (everyone else was using muskets). Stayed with a core of 3 cities, but ended up not conquering much until the very end. Had to use my small army defensively against China and America, while only moving away from home to liberate a city state or two. At emperor level, I feel like it's more beneficial to use great engineers as manufacturies instead of using them to finish a wonder or something. I probably could have cut out several turns if I had done that with all of my great engineers. My cities had pretty poor production I feel, and settling down the GE would have helped a lot.
Basically all of my money was used to buy up as many city states as possible to take advantage of scholasticism. I did spend a large chunk of money buying factories when I started make ship parts though. since I always had minimal money, I signed very few RAs. I didn't manage the few RAs that I did sign very well either. One went to metallurgy when I wanted it to go to computers. That probably hurt me big time. Think I probably could have shaved off 20 or so turns if I did it again using the same strategy by signing more RAs and managing war better.

Jun 03, 2011, 10:19 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-03
Reference number: 24328
Your name: attaturk
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1730AD
Turns played: 256
Base score: 840
Final score: 1647
Time played: 2:57:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0256 AD-1730won.Civ5Save
Renamed file: attaturk_C501301.Civ5Save

Legalism abuse with 4 cities. All GS were saved until it was time to bulb rocketry.
patronage x 3 freedom x 3 order x 1

Jun 03, 2011, 10:50 AM
Quick question for the folks who tried "Legalism abuse with 4 cities". Where did you settle your cities?

I am in the process of writing up my game which was trying to execute this strat, but I couldn't find a good 4th city placement so ended up going with 3. The only possible site I saw for a 4th was in between Rome and America which would have greatly angered both and most likely have led to a war where I would not have been able to defend it.

PS: Very detailed report coming soon.

Jun 03, 2011, 01:16 PM
Ok, now this is more like it! An old-school Muaziz report...

I decided to play as abusive a game as I could. Not that I particularly think abuse is good or that it should even be part of the game, but honestly, I feel like I've missed out. A month ago, I didn't even know what RA blocking was. When I first read about it, I thought it might be situational useful. It turns out that it is probably the most imbalanced mechanic in the game and probably the one that most needs changing. I also think the whole way Research Agreements work isn't great either. Having a "deceptive" Friendly AI Declare War on you (with whom you have an RA) when you've done absolutely nothing that might remotely upset them is very upsetting to me because it feels so random. While I do believe that there should be some randomness in the game, crucial game mechanics (including early RAs) shouldn't be subject to things that are completely uncontrollable (I guess I could never sign RAs with deceptive AIs... sigh).

I decided to use Martin Alvito ('s Tearing Up the Tech Tree - Science Strategies for Deity Play ( as my play guide, specifically the section entitled "Legalism Abuse (Siam)". For those of you not familiar with what that is, here is what I wrote about it in the TSG13 Announcement ( thread.
Legalism (Tradition branch): Receive a free cultural building in your first four cities.

The trick is that Siam's special building (the Wat which replaces a University) is a culture building (giving +3c compared to a University which gives none).

So the idea behind this strategy is to build Monuments and Temples in all your cities (usually 3 or 4 if you can manage it) and learn Eduction (which unlocks the University/Wat) before you get Legalism. Then once you pick up the Legalism SP, presto... free Wats in all your cities.

Note that this strategy also requires managing your Workers, your culture, and your RAs very carefully. Martin's post linked above goes into a lot more detail.

So that was my game plan as I started the game...

Early Game
The obvious settle spot was 1NW to be on the coast next to the Pearls, have the Gems and Cows in the first ring, with a lot more Cows coming down the pike. As DaveMcW suggested in the Announcement thread, I moved the Warrior 2E to make sure there was nothing there that might make me reconsider... Nada. And so it began.

On turn 5, my Warrior gets an extra pop from the Ruins in the Marshes to the E. Given that the turn before, the city had just grown to size 2, that is a nice boost. At the start, the city has a 3f/1p/3g Gems tile, a 3f Cows tile, and a 2p Hills tile. That extra 2 production early on is quite the nice boost considering it is free (since under the happiness bonus).

Three turns later, my Scout (heading NW) discovers Pottery from the nearby Ruins. A real nice pickup considering I was researching AH and was going to research Pottery next on the way towards Writing.

Build order in the capital was: Scout, Monument, Worker, Settler. I built a Monument second since I had not found a Culture Ruins (which are amazing early game) and really wanted to be able to push out that Liberty Settler (via Collective Rule) early.

Early Techs were: AH, Pottery (from Ruins!), Writing (start selling Open Borders), Mining (wanted to start selling Gem luxuries), Philosophy (start Research Agreements), Masonry (since I settled Muang on the Marble I wanted to be able to start selling it as a Luxury), Sailing (to link up those Luxury Pearls), Calendar (to link up those Luxury spices), Trapping (pre-req for Civil Service), Optics (heading towards Astronomy).

At this point, I abused RAs and tech blocked everything I needed to trigger my two RAs: Civil Service and Theology.

In 2920 BC (turn 27), I founded Si Sat with the Settler from Collective Rule (Liberty SP tree).
In 2560 BC (turn 36), I founded Muang on the Marble with a hard built Settler from the capital. In hindsight, this was a great spot since the Marble gave the city an extra +2g and it would have taken a long time to Quarry it and probably not worth putting a Citizen to work the tile. Not only that, it would eventually give me access (after I buying the tile) to the second Whale which many AIs wanted. Also, my first city would eventually grab the Sheep and Spices to the south, so those were not lost.
RAs with Washington, and (a few turns later with) Gandhi, would yield Civil Service (turn 74) and Theology 5 turns later (turn 79) -- thanks to tech blocking (cheating whore that I am -- and I mean no disrespect to actual working ladies).

Education would pop one turn later (turn 80) courtesy of a Harun RA. So three relatively early RAs yielded the three crucial (and expensive at the time) techs to really jump-start this scientific frenzy.

I should mention that I paid Wu for her Open Borders once my scout was ready to explore the eastern landmass. I fairly quickly met all three civs there (India, Arabia, and Egypt). It would be a long time before I would met isolated Japan.

My next Social Policy did not come until turn 89 (I can only do so much math at a time). When it did come, I would acquire Legalism for 3 free Wats (one in all of my cities since they all had a Monument and Temple, and none had access to Wine or Incense for a Monastery).

Sadly, my two non-capital cities were still pathetically small so I could not work those Scientist Specialists to crank up my Research. After all, to even be able to accomplish this, I had to have both of these cities crank out Production to build both a Monument and a Temple (I didn't have the gold to purchase buildings at the time). The strat suggested that by the time you had your free Wats, you would immediately install 2 Specialists, but I couldn't see how that would be possible with the city resources available.

During this time, I had sold all my Luxuries and was in negative Happiness. Since I needed to crank out Production in my two smaller cities, I figured it did not matter if they only grew at 1/4th the rate since they had almost no surplus food anyway. After all, if I failed to build the requisite buildings before the next Social Policy, this entire strat would have been wasted. So I kept plowing away, with my beloved people mired with sadness and despair.

So it wasn't until after I got the free Wats that I started cranking up the growth and tried to Ally some CS Maratime economies (no point in doing it when your population is unhappy and growth is only 1/4th normal).

At the end of turn 91 (Ramsses deal on turn 61), an RA would yield Astronomy (I had researched Compass in the meantime) to enter the Renaissance Age. As it turns out, I completely forgot to maximize my RAs before entering a new age. Every "Age" difference requires a +100g penalty to sign an RA with any AI civ. Don't recall my gold situation at the time, but I was probably near broke anyway having spent most of my gold allying with City-States for Food and Culture (and Luxuries).

Two turns later, I would Great Library into Navigation (it being the most expensive tech I could take). So how did I get the Great Library on turn 93?!? Excellent question. Earlier on, my capital was actually building a Temple. And several turns before it was done I went into panic mode. I realized that if I completed it, it would throw off all my carefully planned math since I had not taken into account any extra Culture (which meant that a Social Policy would become available before my Temples were done in my other two cities). So a couple of turns before the Temple was set to complete (note that I already had Education), I decided to gamble on the Great Library. As we say in Poker, it had the best pot odds. And those odds miraculously paid out. You could say I was playing the EV on that hand. (Ture story: Ironically, earlier tonight, while playing actual Poker for money, I go all-in against my brother with KJ vs his K9. The flop comes 9xx. So my dominating hand is way behind on the flop. Turn and river come AA. So I win with running Aces to make AAKK with a J kicker to beat his 9 kicker now that his 9s give him a worthless three pair. I went on to win it.)

One thing I want to point out is that I deviated from the strat in that I did not found a 4th City (since Legalism gives you free Culture buildings in 4 cities). I simply could not find a good spot for a 4th city and was very concerned about being able to build a Monument and Temple without having to delay the free Wats for a long time. The only spot I could find that looked decent was south of Kuala Lumpur which had Sheep, Wheat and Cotton along the river. However, I was very concerned that this was smack in the middle between Washington and Caesar, and that my settling there would probably anger both and eventually lead to a war that would be hard for me to defend (since it's a ways from the capital) and could break my early crucial RAs. So I opted to go with just three cities.

Mid Game

Rome declares War in 580 AD (turn 139) while in the middle of an RA (argghhh). Sends (I you not) 2 Warriors to my city on the NE side of the lake (Muang), and 1 Warrior and and 1 Archer to my capital. My allied City-States give me the honor of butchering Caesar's forces on the way. It would be a very long time before I could make Peace since I didn't have any offense to counter with and force a favorable Peace deal.

I need to pay more attention to which leaders have a high "Deceptive" trait (how likely their stated attitude does not reflect their real attitude). This same scenario would happen again later with China (not with Warriors, but nearly as bad given the epoch).

Stonehenge... completed in 960 AD (turn 158)! I was actually tempted several times to build it earlier, but always had a decent alternative and was really worried I was going to start on it only to have another AI beat me to it. I don't think I've ever seen it built this late. I know that I've played many games (probably all Cultural) where I built it much, much earlier.

Ummm... Not really sure what really all happened around this stage of the game. Nothing all that eventful. I didn't take any interesting notes and it appears to be a fairly banal period. All that being said, I really feel that this is one of my weakest areas as a Civ player. So this is probably the time where I was building the wrong stuff and making poor decisions without realizing it. Also, reading other player's reports, this is the part of the game where people tend to gloss over the most and as such, I haven't been able how to learn it as well.

Harun is running at +135 gpt in 1000 AD (turn 160), and that number would increase to over +150 not longer afterward. As a reminder, Arabia's special Bazaar (replaces Market) gives them +1 extra Luxury resource from each improved luxury near the city (doesn't count if a city is founded on top of a Luxury). Arabia's "Trade Caravans" civ bonus also gives "+1 gold from each trade route, oil resources provide double quantity". I guess Harun was selling a LOT of resources to everyone all game. That would certainly explain why I eventually stagnated in my ability to pawn off City-State Luxuries.
This brings up another question I had about Luxuries. On the Diplomacy Overview [F4], you can see which Luxuries an AI Civ has for trade. It seems that if they only have 1 of something, they pretty much won't trade it (unless you give them just about everything you have). So I always assumed that if they had one, that meant that they were actively using it. But apparently, that is not the case. In fact, there is no way to know what resources a Civ already has access to unless you try to trade with them and see if they don't want it. If I recall, in Civ4, you knew ahead of time which resources you would be able to trade. It sucked picking up an extra Silk from a City-State only to find out that I would be stuck with it.

Ragusa (which I allied on turn 189) would not relinquish its Coal (or Oil not that I cared for it) until way too late, in 1635 AD (turn 237). I assume that Ragusa couldn't give it to me until it had discovered Scientific Theory (which reveals Coal)? Is there any way to know how far along a City-State is tech-wise? For other AIs, at least you get warnings when they enter a new Technological Age. This really delayed my ability to build Factories since there was no nearby Coal.
At this point, I had four RAs on their way and was just cruising. Nothing could possibly go wrong...

End Game

China declared war (turn 221) a couple turns before the RA ended. Wu lost half a dozen units in 3 turns, and then asked for Peace 6 turns later giving me everything she had (except cities). I thought that you had to wait 10 turns to make Peace after declaring War?

Remember that part about nothing possibly going wrong? I am not sure why I got attacked. I never did anything to harm my relations with China. Was my army too small? Was my incense not aromatic enough?

After researching Replaceable Parts and Electricity, I "bulb" Radio, Flight, Radar, and Rocketry to start building the Apollo Program. I do this with 3 Great Scientists and Oxford. By the way, can a GE rush Apollo? That was my plan, but due to poor planning, my GE wasn't ready in time.

Eventually, the other three RAs finish up and I am one short (including GSs) to reach Nanotechnology (which allows for the last SS Component). Arghhh. Damn you Wu Zetian!

In 1655 AD (turn 241) Harun declares War. At this point, I have 3 Gunships (2 Gifted and one insta-purchased upon DoW), a Mobile Artillery (Gifted), and a Mech Infantry (Gifted). I assume that City-States gift units based on *my* tech level on not *theirs*? It's weird because early on, sometimes I would get a Horseman, and sometimes I would get something much better. Harun had actually settled a small city just north of Sidney so he had a foothold near me. But his Rifles were no match for superior tech.

In 1700 AD (turn 250), I had both a Great Scientist and Great Engineer born in my capital on the same turn. While I did have enough GP points to get both, I was surprised that it worked this way. Normally, after each GP that is born, the cost of the next GP goes up by 100. So I would have expected that it randomly decides which is born first, then increments the total for the next GP by 100, then checks to see if the next one can pop (which it would not have). Instead I got both and the cost for next GP was (correctly) increased by 200. Didn't matter in this game since it was almost over, but curious if this is a bug or intended.

Rome is killed in 1605 AD (turn 251). Not really sure by who... maybe it was the Americans, or perhaps it was the Egyptians, then again it could have been the Chinese, or even the Arabs. All I know is that it wasn't me or Gandhi (with his one remaining puny city).

Space Victory achieved in 1725 AD (turn 255).

Final Thoughts
After this game was complete, I took a quick look back at previous GotM Science games. The only one I found was GotM TSG8 (as Alex) that DaveMcW won in 1505 AD (turn 211). I didn't look into the details of that game, but I would think that playing Siam with the "Legalism Abuse" would produce an even faster result.

That just makes me feel sad. I would have thought this "exploit" game would easily allow me to beat that, but alas. I did have some bad luck towards the end which easily cost me 10-15 turns, but was still way off a not-nearly-as-abusive game.

While I feel like I had a great start and a respectable game, it's clear to me that my mid-game is still far from optimal. I'll keep reading the reports until I figure out how I can improve in this crucial portion of the game.

A crucial mistake I made (other than not trusting those deceitful civs) was not having a good sense of how long the game would go and how many Social Policies I would end up getting. I thought that I would no longer need Techs by the time I could get Scientific Revolution (2 Free Techs) from the Rationalism tree. That cost me dearly when Wu Declared War (for no reason mind you and with no real army) and completely screwed my masterfully set plan. Note to self: always sign an extra RA to avoid this scenario. But even if Wu hadn't gotten all uppity, I am pretty sure I could have gotten an earlier win by switching to Rationalism after Scholasticism (City-State allies provide 33% of their science output) from the Patronage tree.

NOTE: I am planning on replaying this game with my same start until my first SP. From that point I will attempt to use my "normal" one-city NC build and slingshot to CS using the Great Library. That build does not expand until the NC complete (although I will sometimes build a Settler in the middle of the NC, but making sure not to settle before the NC completes).

Jun 03, 2011, 07:02 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-03
Your name: xerex
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1890AD
Turns played: 315
Base score: 1182
Final score: 1876
Time played: 4:39:00

I got National College in my capital before settling two more cities. I did not find a good spot to build a fourth. Built monuments, theater in each and got Education 10 turns before Legalism (bad timing?). I just built other stuffs before the free Wats.
In early game I privileged City States alliances instead of RA's, while in late game I did a max of RA's (those that costs 350g plus a 100g to convince the AI).
I did set up a fourth city straight East of the capital, close to China. That obviously angered her but the Gold and the Iron were too good. And with the 2-3 Maritime CS the city grew up real fast.
Social Policies: Tradition, Liberty, Patronage, Rationalism.
The Arabian Empire was taking Chinese cities so I moved my troops in order to get my share of the cake, but before I could even DoW China, I was being attacked by Harun Al Rachid. I retreated through the narrow sea, and attacked back later, with a few more units and properly upgraded. Took four cities and the Arabs sold the house. I had to refuse the cities gifted else it would have plunged me below -10 happy. I took the remaining lone capital city of China just to connect my empire.
Things went smoothly after that. I built the Oxford University at the wrong time, that is right after a string of RA's and could only get a cheap partialy researched tech. What a waste!
During Modern Times, both America and Egypt AI DoW me, but they had no plan. They lost each a few units, nothing alarming, but then they begged me for peace and offered luxuries, a few thousand golds and hundreds of gpt.

PS mods: My game crashed twice. Plus once I pressed F12 to try to take a snapshot (as per Steam) but the game loaded an old game of mine, so I had to take my autosave of the previous turn and replay.

PS 2: I think I played much more than 4:39:00 ...

Jun 04, 2011, 01:49 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-04
Reference number: 24337
Your name: Harbinger
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1959AD
Turns played: 379
Base score: 1130
Final score: 1506
Time played: 4:41:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0379 AD-1959.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Harbinger_C501301.Civ5Save

A win, but far from my best effort. Settled 4 city's and went with the Legalism 'abuse' strategy (although I did a poor job of timing it). Didn't build enough of a military, which kept the AI declaring war on me and not wanting to make peace even though he couldn't get organized enough to take a city and I would typically inflict casualties on him on the order of 5 units:1. Mental note for my next "peaceful" game: keep enough units around to convince the AI to stay away (or to at least make peace after I pulverize his army).

Jun 05, 2011, 04:35 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-05
Your name: ssjos
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1650AD
Turns played: 240
Base score: 629
Final score: 1310
Time played: 6:16:00

Legaism "abuse" strat, but after I had built NC. Executed successfully by turn 93 (4 Wat). Settled 2 cities to the east, one on gem and one two tiles south east of marble. One (somewhat useless) city settled on spice to west.

Tried to go heavy RA but i got early DoW from china, then Rome and then america so I had to defend my self. Took a rome city up by the whales.

Policys were 3 liberty (collective and citizen), 4 tradition (monarchy), 3 patronage (schoiatism) and 4 rationalism (tech revo). Was gonna get metiocracy as well but didnt have time because I had taken too many policys already.

Jun 05, 2011, 01:51 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-05
Reference number: 24344
Your name: Neuro
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1645AD
Turns played: 239
Base score: 717
Final score: 1525
Time played: 4:47:00

So, I had originally intended to play this game without using RAs or selling lux for cash or any of that stuff, but while I was playing I got so wrapped up in the game I was about 80 turns in and had already signed several RAs and sold all my luxes before I remembered. So I figured I'd go for broke on this one and abuse it all one last time.

I founded my capital 1NW like most people, and my warrior went NW as well. Found Bucharest, Florence, Rome, and America quickly, and grabbed 3 Ruins (Pottery, Map, Culture). After exploring that direction, the warrior returned home and cleared out a barb camp right nearby and found one last ruins which gave me a +1 pop. My first build was a scout which went east and got 1 ruins (upgrade), and found China, Venice, and Seoul. Once he discovered Seoul, the Archerscout discovered that the coast my capital was on was an enclosed, inland sea. I couldn't get past China, so I explored the coast and found Sydney, then brought the archer home to defend against barbs.

My initial plan was to build the NC then expand to 4 cities and take Legalism when I had my temples up. My initial build was Scout-Worker-(Library)-NC-Settler-Settler. My policies were Tradtion-Liberty-Collective Rule, then there was a pause due to city expansion after which I took Patronage down to Scholasticism. I built my second city to the east on the river with 4 spices and a gems around it, and my third on top of the marble NE of my capital, on the shore of the Inland sea. My last city was west of the capital, on the coast so I could build a work boat for my capital's fish, as well as build a trireme or caravel if I wanted.

I made two RAs early, with America and China. Rome was taking Honor policies, so I didn't trust him to not attack me, so I sold my gems to him and used the cash on the RAs with the nicer civs. All three civs were friendly to me, though once I founded my fourth city, both China and Rome showed "They feel you are expanding too quickly" feeling in their diplo, but it went away 20-30 turns later. I should mention that America and Rome declared war on each other about four times this game, so that might have kept Rome from declaring on me.

Once I got Optics, I sent the archerscout east to look for more civs, since I could now cross the long thin bay without paying China for Open Borders. I found Egypt, Gandhi, and Moneybags Arabia, who financed my empire for generations. I sold him and Gandhi all my luxuries and bought up CSs with the cash.

My four wats didn't come online until turn 103, but each city had at least 4 pop so I immediately staffed them with scientists. I signed RAs where I could, I think I did 8 in total. I blocked Fertilizer and Metallurgy, and then Railroad, which meant every other tech was one I needed, so it didn't matter where the RA went off. I used oxford and two free techs to get down to the Apollo Program, and then five more GSs (one from Porcelain Tower) to push down to Nanotech, then built the space program. I was horribly crippled on lack of coal till about 10 turns before the end, when Ragusa FINALLY was able to give me coal, and I should have finished Railroad sooner, but otherwise I played a decent game I think.

Overall this was a much more fun game than the last one, since there was more to do with more players to interact with. This was my first game in a long time where I never went to war with anyone, not even a CS. My mistakes were not doing Railroad sooner, and building the Great Library. With the way RAs are, it totally undermines the value of the GL, and I would have been better off building other things than spending 20 turns on a tech I could have gotten from a 200 gold RA.

I look forward to DaveMcW's 192 turn science win! =)

Jun 05, 2011, 02:57 PM
I did end up replaying this game to see if the super fast expand (which I used for my first game) was really better than a slower more developing the capital type of game. In this one, I would build NC before expanding (although my first Settler would be built in the middle of building NC, but timed not to settle until the turn after NC completes).

Long story short (read on for the unabridged version), I felt a lot more comfortable in the early game with this approach. I felt like my more developed capitol allowed for a lot more flexibility.

One thing I learned this game was that Washington is deceitful... sigh. I guess it's Abe that's honest. Looking at the Civ AI traits spreadsheet it really seems like the majority of AIs are deceitful which is a little lame.

Fortunately I saw America's attack coming since Florence was my Ally. It's bad that the AI sucks at using Archers properly. America's force of 3 Warriors, 3 Archers and a Great General was no match for my Warrior and Pikeman with the help of city defense. That's a little sad. I feel like the Barb AI is more intelligent than that.

In my original game, Education was learned on turn 80. In this game, it was turn 83 via the Great Library. In my original game, Wats were built (from the Legalism SP) on turn 89. In this game, it was on turn 97, mostly due to not great SP timing (the previous SP hit on turn 80).

Scientific Theory on turn 157, 4 turns later than in my first game. Without looking at all the details, it does tell me that both games were very close up until this point.

Build order: Scout, Warrior, Worker, Monument. So an additional Warrior which I felt was ok. At the very least, it kept my capital from being harassed as much by Barbs.

If I did build a 4th city, I thing the spot 2W of the Iron near the capital would have been ideal. Obviously, I didn't know there was Iron there at the time, but that's a fine city placement with access to 2 Cows, Fish, and Spices. It also provides a coastal city in the event that I don't found my second city on the coast (which I did do in both games), but on the river instead.

China Declares War on turn 166. And I lose yet another RA because of it. It's like deja-vu all over again! Many turns later, I had killed almost a dozen units and lost none (I was mostly Healing in friendly territory while getting attacked). However, I couldn't get Wu to negotiate Peace without me giving her a bunch of . WTF?!?... Finally, 30 turns later, Wu accepts a reasonable Peace deal forking over a little gold.

Can you not re-trade Luxuries? By that I mean that if you trade for a Luxury from an AI Civ or if a City-State (that you are allied with) gives you a Luxury, it doesn't appear that you can re-trade it. It appears that you can only trade Luxuries which you harvest directly.

Rocketry on 183 (5 GSs and Oxford a turn earlier). Start Apollo Program. In my first game, my Great Engineer was not ready in time to "hurry" it... Except that I learn this game that you can NOT use a GE on it <sigh>. I knew you couldn't in Civ4, but it was not clear that you couldn't in Civ5 since it is listed as a Wonder. I assume the same thing is true for the Manhattan project. Strangely enough, it does work to speed up the UN.

And here is where I surpassed my first game. Originally I did not start the Apollo Program until turn 199 (16 turns later). Some of that is probably due to RAs and the like though. One well timed RA can make a really big difference. I did notice in both games that there were often periods where the AI was just too broke to be able to sign an RA and no amount of trading gold for gpt was going to help (especially with the 25% loss rates the AIs offer it at).

All in all, I think both games were fairly similar. Although, I have to say, I really did prefer not trying to go "all-in" on a super-fast Legalism with 4 cities. I felt that in this game, my cities were a lot more well developed early on, and I was better positioned to deal with the unknown. In my first game, I really felt like I was living on the razor's edge.

I also got to Patronage a lot earlier (turn 80 rather than 101) due to not having to take as many techs in the Liberty and Tradition trees. Part of that was my decision to grab Tradition (+3c in the capital) first rather than start with Liberty for the really fast Settler. I feel like that worked out real well and gave me time to develop my cities.

Before turn 200, Harun is at 1500g with 193gpt. I honestly have no idea what he is doing. I know he has a lot of Cotton, but still...

Washington decides to Declare War... again. WTF?!? Thankfully he was so poor (after the last smackdown) that I had no deals with him, but seriously?? I do love how my Allies Florence and Bucharest did a great job of butchering his troops as he was trying to invade from the West of my capital. I also had to deal with some of his troops on the E side of the lake, but my Pike and Longswordsman held that push off fine by fortifying just behind the river (hence causing a penalty for attacking while crossing a river).

Apollo on turn 200 vs 218 for my original game. Built mostly while under Golden Age (after the 3rd turn) when a natural (Happiness related) GA happened.

In this game, I did have a lot of difficulty closing out the game due to the fact that everyone except Egypt and Arabia was broke towards the end of the game. That meant no extra RAs.

Going back on my earlier comment about Militaristic City-States gifting all kinds of units... Within one turn of one another (on turn 221) I get a Gunship (woohoo!) and a Musket (ummm, ok, I guess... thanks... a lot... I mean it... I don't know what I would have done without your generous... err... gift.)

I had some incomprehensible horrible play at the end of the game (I blame that stupid GE and all the alcohol... can't ever go wrong with that). Space Victory on turn 249 (6 turns that my first game) in what was probably the most botched end-game of all time. I used Meritocracy for a GE thinking it would speed along the Apollo Program. Then I had *another* GE spawn since I forgot to take the Specialists off once I realized my entire Engineering effort had been a huge waste of time.

Edit: After replaying my horribly botched ending, I managed to get a turn 237 win (12 turns better than my horrible ending prior). The real bottleneck in the end was not having any Coal until turn 229 when Ragusa finally had the tech to know what it was. Note that in my original game, I did not get Coal from Ragusa until turn 237. I wonder if it is based on the City-State tech-level or some composition of where everyone is at. The reason I am curious is because it popped as soon as Harun reached the Industrial Era. Although, Scientific Theory which reveals Coal is actually at the end of the Renaissance Era. Just curious if anyone knows exactly how this works.

My next mission... Replay the game yet again, but this time settling a 4th city to the W of the Capital, slightly W of where the Iron is. Hell, maybe even found a 5th city late game just to grab some darn coal.

Jun 05, 2011, 03:18 PM
Can you not re-trade Luxuries? By that I mean that if you trade for a Luxury from an AI Civ or if a City-State (that you are allied with) gives you a Luxury, it doesn't appear that you can re-trade it. It appears that you can only trade Luxuries which you harvest directly.

Rocketry on 183 (5 GSs and Oxford a turn earlier). Start Apollo Program. In my first game, my Great Engineer was not ready in time to "hurry" it... Except that I learn this game that you can NOT use a GE on it <sigh>. I knew you couldn't in Civ4, but it was not clear that you couldn't in Civ5 since it is listed as a Wonder. I assume the same thing is true for the Manhattan project. Strangely enough, it does work to speed up the UN.

You are correct; luxuries and resources obtained from trades or gifts cannot be re-traded. As for the Apollo Program, it's listed as a 'Project', which cannot be sped up or bought. This includes Apollo, Manhattan, Utopia, and all the Spaceship Components. They all must be hard-built.

I feel your pain on the lack of coal, I too was missing it for the longest time. I noticed that the instant Ragusa had coal, Egypt got it as well, so I suspect that two civs have to learn the tech before the CSs can access the resource.

Jun 05, 2011, 05:11 PM
Hi people, this is my first post in Civfanatics.

If I do something wrong or write something in English wrong please forgive me.

Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-05
Reference number: 24348
Your name: Derfel_82
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1928AD
Turns played: 349
Base score: 916
Final score: 1327
Time played: 3:41:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0349 AD-1929.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Derfel_82_C501301.Civ5Save

I use Legalism Abuse but without any RA.

Found my first city near the mountain in the cow and another 3 cites.

Jun 05, 2011, 05:19 PM
I feel your pain on the lack of coal, I too was missing it for the longest time. I noticed that the instant Ragusa had coal, Egypt got it as well, so I suspect that two civs have to learn the tech before the CSs can access the resource.

Ditto. Lack of coal really hampered my game, and a lot of others by the sounds of some of the reports.

And yes, seems that at least a couple of civs have the know the relevant tech before the CS can access it - seems to me this is the same for iron, aluminium, etc? Anyone confirm? Might be just anecdotal?

Jun 05, 2011, 09:57 PM
I feel your pain on the lack of coal, I too was missing it for the longest time. I noticed that the instant Ragusa had coal, Egypt got it as well, so I suspect that two civs have to learn the tech before the CSs can access the resource.
That would make some sense and it's been my observation that is how it works. I had noticed it in the past with CSs getting access to Plantations once it seemed 2 civs had it.

In this game, I wonder if signing more RAs than necessary to get the Spaceship techs would have helped to speed along the AI civs to allow Ragusa to give us the Coal earlier. I forget if I could have built a city on top of a Coal just to grab some. I will give that a shot as I am just underway in my 3rd replay (not counting end-game variations from the last one).

leif erikson
Jun 06, 2011, 05:48 AM
Hi people, this is my first post in Civfanatics.

Welcome to CivFanatics and GoTM. :wavey:

Congrats on your first GoTM victory. :beer:

Jun 06, 2011, 07:22 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-06
Reference number: 24350
Your name: Aaronius
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1890AD
Turns played: 315
Base score: 2171
Final score: 3446
Time played: 17:05:00

Please ignore the time played. I leave the game running while I do other things. I posted my first 89 turns in the game in progress thread so I'll put my remaining turns here.

Turn 90 – Found Egypt. RA and sold him some spicy excitement. Turn 88 the Theology Civil Service Education slingshot worked like a glove. One turn from new SP and my last city just finished the temple. Better late than never I guess. Wu had money for RA on turn 89 so we made it happen. Seoul now just friends, but mission accomplished.

Turn 100 – Hooked up my scientists in my Wats. Sold Ramesses more spice. Making libraries, researching Compass with 54science now. Gonna backfill after this starting with Wheel, even tho I could do Astronomy in 16 turns and the RA has 25 to go. One more RA with Caesar on turn 99.

Turn 110 – Decided to go with Meritocracy and to build the Hagia Sophia to boost my GS production. Going for Democracy next so they really pop. Maybe I should have built the Porcelin Tower instead, but I think that the HS will be better. Built all the way thru Metal Casting. Blocked Steel Engineering and Currency for next RA to finish and give Astronomy. Got first GS. I guess I’ll save him for Navigation.

Turn 120 – Still building libraries, dealing with happiness issues, starting on workshops, plans for NC and Ironworks in very near future. Have RAs with everybody but the remaining unmet player. I think he’s south of China. Gonna build or buy a Caravel soon after Astronomy hopefully. Found Arabs and signed another RA. Got my second GS.

Turn 130 – Found India south of China. One unmet player left and I still haven’t built a caravel. I may not now. Just need to peek under India…oh look, Stockholm and Hanoi! RA with Caesar gives me Banking. Biggest problem right now is my cities won’t grow and I can’t figure out how to get them going…

Turn 140 – Where is that last player (who just happens to be winning by score…grrr)? Hope I don’t need a boat.

Turn 150 - Just trying to get these cities healthy and growing. NatlCollege built, working on NatlEpic, building Workshops, Coliseums, planning for Ironworks. New RA with Egypt. Can’t find last unmet player. Sending a warrior to sea to try to find him… Well, I found him. Japan. Just swell.

Turn 160 – Picked up Civil Society, 35 turns until Democracy and I can’t afford any more CS allies other than Venice. Met Ragusa and Almaty.

Turn 170 – Met Dublin. Cash strapped and cities are growing slow, but still signing RAs. Not really using my Wats as I’m trying to grow my cities. I’m turtling Metallurgy with the intent of blocking it, and letting the RAs work the more expensive techs above.

Turn 180 – I’m into Industrial Era way early so I’m chilling on the RAs briefly until others catch up. Turtling Rifling while RAs do the rest. Planning to block Combustion. Upgrading my three warriors as I’m starting to feel the target on my back. Got the National Library, Epic, and Ironworks. Building Wall Street. Finally building a caravel…

Turn 190 – China looks like its about to attack me. 3 turns from Rifles w/ money in the bank. Should be interesting. China did attack with 5muskets and some CNKs and archers… The same turn I got rifles… The next turn Rome and Egypt DOW China w/o me having to pay. Its good to be loved and I should get at least one of China’s cities before this is over…

Turn 200 – China has sent 20 units against me and still had ten left over to battle Rome AND Venice on my NorthEast flank, all while fighting a rear-guard action against Egypt… It seems a bit unbelievable. After killing each other for a couple of turns Rome attacked me too. I had to pay Washington to attack Rome b/c it looked like he was eyeballing me as well. I used a great scientist to get Artillery and upgraded immediately so my one artillery and three riflemen are holding their own. One more artillery being built, Infantry should arrive any turn now, and then its off to take at least one chinese city. Who knows, I might even go on a rampage depending on the economic and happiness situation in the chinese cities…

Turn 210 – Still at war with China. Rome payed 66g for peace. Could be worse… took one city, about to take the second. The first city is unhappy and poor. I may have to sell it.

Turn 220 – China is no more. I thought they might have another city to the north of the capital, but nope. Now I’m at war with the Arabs b/c I had to steal his CS for the coal and he is attacking my dear friend Ghandi. I plan to make this tech advantage last and take as many cities as possible, economics and happiness permitting.

Turn 230 – Well, now Egypt attacked me. I wanted to kill him anyway but I wanted to punish the Arabs first. Oh well, no rest for the weary.

Turn 240 – Its all quality vs quantity. My upgraded rocket artillery and Infantry vs musketmen cannon and a few lesser units. Egypt must fall. Revealed world map with GS and Satellites. I have new RAs with Japan India and Arabia, we’ll see if they last. I’m rich now from some of these puppets and resources so I took Seoul and Singapore as new Allies to go with Venice and Ragusa. Things are looking good as long as nobody wins a cultural victory or nukes me…

Turn 250 – Working my way thru the Egyptian corpes. Going all the way to the capital then I’ll sue for peace…. After I took the capital he sued for peace offering all his cities but one and 1600g. I took it then sold the cities to the lesser players b/c the cities were garbage. Preparing to attack the Arabs after our last RA is completed…. Took Monarchy SP.

Turn 260 – The world has returned to peace. If Harun so much as raises an eyebrow he’s a dead man. Tokugawa has turned hostile, go figure. I’m ready if they want to get ugly, but I want the RAs I have with them to complete in the next ten turns. I also have RAs with with Washington and Ghandi that will mature in about 30. I think this along with another GS or two should get me over the finish line. I just hope my cities can crank some spaceship parts before things turn ugly…. Nevermind, everyone did a coordinated DOW on me. OUCH! This could get interesting…

Turn 270 – In order to get to space I am going to have to slaughter these idiots. I have to admit that was a well coordinated attack. Rome down, Arabs and Japs to go…

Turn 300 – Verdict is in on the Legalism Cheat. I’m in the future era with 68 techs, and Japan is in second with 51. Still haven’t gotten around to the Japanese continent yet. Took every capital and decent city on mine, except for Washington b/c he was too far in the wrong direction and his cities looked worthless. I’m 15 turns from the spaceship completion, at peace with everyone, allied with every CS I want to be, and if I want to attack Japan I’m almost ready. Not sure if its even worth it but I kinda want to liberate that CS he took. Just to show him who’s boss before I leave the planet and all…

Turn 315 – Blast off. I was able to take two of Japan’s cities and was preparing to take the capital after the waves of infantry dried up. All in all this was probably the strongest game I ever played. They Legalism Cheat forced me to micromanage in a way I hadn’t before. This game took a long time to play consequently. I really feel a deeper appreciation for the game now having employed such a strategy fairly effectively.

Things I loved about this game: Legalism Abuse with Siam. Got my Wats on turn 89, which seems good compared to some other players who tried it. Of course I didn't go for any wonders or NC beforehand. This strategy made me micromanage like never before. The midgame was painful b/c even tho I had Wats and beakers and four cities, I was dead last in population with four little cities that wouldn't grow, didn't make money, and weren't happy. Thank god for all those lux nearby. It took a long time to get those cities growing AND happy AND wealthy. Ironically, even tho I felt my cities lagging in this game, I would keep looking up and notice it was still sometime around the birth of christ, and I would realize how far ahead I was on techs!!!

Things I liked about the game: playing with Siam, relatively peaceful neighbors, no Alexander, Tokugawa stuck on an island, tons of spice to trade.

Things I didn't like about the game: these GOTM lately seem to be asking us to use a particular civ to achieve the hardest difficulty condition, or at least not the easiest. To me Siam is an ideal culture victory civ, one reason I love them (almost as much as Ghandi). Also, I think several of the AI civs were broken. Yes Harun was rich, but the money that the AIs had made no sense turn to turn, -250g one turn, +300g the next with 25gpt. It made no sense and I had to check diplo every turn to see who had what b/c it was utterly unpredictable and detached from reality.

Other Thoughts: The story of my early game was one of deep and abiding peace. I had RAs going with pretty much everyone almost thru the renaissance, which I financed thru lux sales. Only one CS ally until near the end. China ended up being the fool willing to DOW me first, but luckily for me I had decided to slow my space victory by taking the time to get to rifles. China attacked when I was three turns from riflemen....Big mistake.

That changed my game in a major way, b/c Rome and America DOWed me soon after, and it militarized me for the rest of the game. I mean if you have tech advantage why not use it, expecially since I had Japan kicking butt somewhere in a "far away land" and Egypt looking very menacing near my new chinese puppets.

I took China and Egypt then went back to peace. That could have been all the fighting but Japan orchestrated the most elegant sneak attack I've ever experienced. Every civ in the game except my friend Ghandi DOWed me simultaneously with Tokugawa declaring last and revealing his "master plan". Fortunately for me my tech advantage continued with artillery, then mech infantry, then rocket artillery which dovetails so nicely with a science strategy.

The only civ I didn't end up at least taking the capital was Washington. he was just too far out of the way. All those DOWs cost me about half a dozen unfinished RAs, which dramatically slowed my victory. Can't blame the AI for trying.

I also decided to use my GS as soon as I got them in most cases. I don't like keeping them around with their unit cost per turn. I wonder if someone more experienced is certain that this is bad strategy, since of course later techs are more expensive, and too much tech advantage makes RAs more expensive. One advantage I think of using GS early is you get to the techs that allow you to win wars with fewer units. I was not only able to defend with four land units, but take China and Egypt. I added a fifth and a sixth land unit later, and eventually built a four boat navy, but the critical victories all took place with three rifles (later infantry) and one artillery piece (later rocket artillery). If I had been stuck with longswords, I never would have survived the first attack by china and rome b/c they came with so many crossbows trebuchets and musketmen I would at least have lost my two eastern cities. One artillery makes all the difference tho.

Overall, I really enjoyed this game and am proud to have a score that is similar to some of the decent players.

Jun 07, 2011, 04:13 PM
Things I loved about this game: Legalism Abuse with Siam. Got my Wats on turn 89, which seems good compared to some other players who tried it. Of course I didn't go for any wonders or NC beforehand. This strategy made me micromanage like never before. ...

I beelined writing and rushed NC and still got my Wats by turn 93.

Still, I somehow doubt that it was the right choice of strategy. I spent alot of resources getting the 3 extra cities and the expansion triggered three AI to war me around turn 105-120.

Jun 07, 2011, 04:16 PM
..... I was horribly crippled on lack of coal till about 10 turns before the end, when Ragusa FINALLY was able to give me coal, and I should have finished Railroad sooner, but otherwise I played a decent game I think.....

There was a coal to the north west of the capital near the cultural city-states which I was able to settle in the end-game for coal access. Was this land occupied for you?

Anyhow, I guess my game was fullblown world war from turn 100 so maybe that slowed AI expansion.

Jun 07, 2011, 05:06 PM
There was a coal to the north west of the capital near the cultural city-states which I was able to settle in the end-game for coal access. Was this land occupied for you?

Anyhow, I guess my game was fullblown world war from turn 100 so maybe that slowed AI expansion.

America had settled Chicago up there. Had I known Ragusa would take so long to hook up the coal, I would have settled a city on top of some coal SOMEwhere, but each turn I kept thinking "Ragusa has to hook it up now, it's been forever". I mean, they'd already MINED the coal and everything!

Jun 08, 2011, 12:37 PM
Greetings everyone, this is my 1st post here!

Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-08
Reference number: 24357
Your name: Side89
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1977AD
Turns played: 397
Base score: 959
Final score: 1213
Time played: 3:59:00

I settled my Capital 1 tile NW so i could easily get to the pearls. I started off going for the NC start and going down the Liberty path, choosing Citizenship and Meritocracy, using the GE to rush the Great Library. I then settled 3 more cities right after my NC was complete - 1 city went West to grab Iron and to soak up the spices, another city went directly west to grab another gem and more spices, and my final city went NW of the capital to grab the marble and whales.

I then go tradition and decide to try the "Legalism wat trick" that I've read about, so i start building monuments / temples in all of my cities. All the while I am selling tons of spices and the extra gem for gold to fund RA's and to ally with several city states (Venice and Seoul to start out with). I research Education but I am no where near finished with the monuments / temples, so I finish building them in time for the next social policy to come up and I grab Legalism. To my surprise though, I get 4 free Opera Houses! My RA's popped acoustics before I could get the temples down and grab Legalism! DOH! :hammer2::hammer2: So I go full on production and hard build wats in every city but at least I'm getting lots of culture. I think by this point I opened up Patronage and was on my way to Scholasticism.

Around this time, Washington DOW's me for the first and only time in the game and I easily repel him and we make a fair peace treaty. A little later, China declares war on me but It doesn't last too long, as Egypt and Arabia are monster Civs now and both DOW on China and start taking her cities. Egypt then declares war on Arabia, China is conquered and I now share a border with Egypt. It is around this time I research Artillery and build them like crazy. Somewhere in this mess a GE is born and i decide to rush the Brandenburg Gate and get a free GG. After I build 1 artillery Egypt and Arabia both DOW me at around the same turn and send lots of units in my direction but most are out dated. There are a ton of them and I get scared so I actually throw down a Citadel and it helps me a lot. A GG is born during my defending so I send him up to battle.

At this point, I am fighting Arabia for the tech lead - I keep switching from rank 1-2 on the demographics screen. I still maintain good trading relationships with Japan, India, America and Rome. Japan is my best buddy and I bribe him to declare war on Egypt and Arabia. He wants something ridiculously low like 20 g, horses, and open borders for each war so I agree in hopes he annoys Egypt and Arabia. To my surprise he gets a foot hold on the Egyptian mainland and takes an Egyptian city but he decides to RAZE it.

When I research Rocketry I build the Apollo program and upgrade many of my artillery to rockets. I see no sign of Egypt's troops as he is battling Arabia to his south, so I decide to invade and I Puppet Shanghai with little resistance. I see Beijing has only 1 population and is shifting back and forth every few turns, green yellow green yellow. Arabia has the tech lead now and builds Apollo but I have the Apollo program up and have the 1st 3 pieces already done (SS booster?) When I'm finished with the 4th piece Arabia has built 3 and is right on my tail. I sadly do not have access to coal and have no factories, thus no spaceship factories, so I make many people unemployed in my capital and my next biggest production city and pump out the last 2 pieces and hope that I beat Arabia to it. Arabia builds his 4th piece while I am finishing up my last so I take the Victory. All in all though it was a rather fun/interesting game for me.

Also, My PC decided to crash twice during this game, but I was auto-saving every turn so I re-loaded from there. I know that I'm not supposed to replay any turns but I hope this is ok.

leif erikson
Jun 08, 2011, 08:18 PM
Greetings everyone, this is my 1st post here!

Welcome to Civ5 GoTM! :salute:

And congrats on your win. :thumbsup:

Jun 09, 2011, 12:20 AM
Science victory!

Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-09
Reference number: 24363
Your name: Tabarnak
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1735AD
Turns played: 257
Base score: 687
Final score: 1347
Time played: 4:36:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0257 AD-1735.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Tabarnak_C501301.Civ5Save

You can read evolution of the game here :

and here :

After turn 210 i went for the coal and i bought myself a factory in cap and hard built one in another city. Made peace with Washington. I got nanotech at tun 239 but still 2 last big parts to build and not yet finished with a cluster. I bought a spaceship factory to build last 2 parts in cap. I made some maths and i couldnt save a few turns with another city because i didd't have enough money to buy a solar plant(planted on marble) and/or a spaceship factory. It was smelling war around too.

Civs around were pretty nervous. I didn't have a big army, too busy at building parts. Finally got at war with Harun and Egypt some turns later. Wonderful how much damage you can do with only 1 cannon against 6 units... Just hurt most units as possible without killing them, they will retreat to heal. :king:

Do they burn tiles sometime? Only barbs have masterized this so far or what? Wars were pretty easy sincerely.

Except this lame situation, it was a pretty fun game. For a rusted guy(RA blocking, industrial-modern eras play turns), it wasn't that bad after all.

Jun 09, 2011, 01:41 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-09
Reference number: 24364
Your name: MacPlayerJay
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1872AD
Turns played: 306
Base score: 969
Final score: 1588
Time played: 3:59:00
Submitted save: tsg13.Civ5Save
Renamed file: MacPlayerJay_C501301.Civ5Save

Hi this is my first GOTM because the MAC version finally got the last patch. This was my first game since the patch and all I really noticed was that the AI likes to declare war more often, but still cannot actually fight a war.

I tried the WAT legalism thingy and also tried to play very peacefully and actually only took one city (a city-state) late in the game. I signed numerous RA's only to see the AI declare war when in friendly status. The first was Ceasar around turn 50, after I had a publicly declared friendship with him. America, China and Harun also did this later in the game.

I think in hindsight I should have taken Roman, American and Chinese cities then puppeted them. My tech rate was a little slow for most of the game, but by the end I was over 700 per turn with help from city states.

Money and happiness were never really a problem, but the AI never seemed to have enough money. I usually play immortal and am used to the AI having much more money.

I was shooting for a sub-300 turn win, but forgot I also needed nanotech and was 1 GS short, so It took me another 9 turns to research and 8 turns to build. Whoops.\!

Jun 09, 2011, 03:38 PM
Guess I was not the fastest in this one... :)

glad I made it though after all the struggle I reported in the progress section.
Topline: wanted to try legalism abuse. started off well, founding 2 new cities fast. built 3rd settler but rome declared war and it took me so long to take his cap which I wanted as 4th city. Also I took a second settler from a CS so I was in perma war with 3 CSs. I didnt know bout that.

cold war like conditions with Washington and Wu stopped me from discovering rest of world. bad trading, hardly RAs, didnt know a lot of CSs.

fell far behind and thought I would never recover. techwise also 1 age behind all others.

built banks, markets etc. to boost economy. then allied with 4 CSs (florence, bucharest, venice and kuala lumpur). schoaticism boosted science. I got better on track but Japan was the only friendly Civ towards me.

in the late phase of the match where I first ever micromanaged I erazed Washington. tried to get to artillery asap, built 4 of them and one by one puppeted his cities. I built all available happines buildings and in the end directly had to sell cities that I won to Arabia who had lots of cash, bought off all CSs and aimed at cultural victory. Kept him at 9 points during elections by declaring war. Ramses erazed Wu and then attacked my spices city east of Sukothai. This was the closest battle I ever fought, army stats at one point being Ramses 40,000 vs. me 2,400, several times reinforcement troops arrived just on time to defeat his unit that could have taken the city. he had just 1 or 2 units that could actually take the city, rest was artillery. I was able with my 3 artilleries to fight him off. He even nuked the city which was nice because it brought my happiness from -10 to around 0 thus making my units more powerful and my spaceship production faster. :D

Ramses was always ahead in tech but was in war with Arabia and China and me. Must have slowed him down. When I won he was missing 2 parts of the spaceship.

Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-09
Reference number: 24366
Your name: subber
Game date: 2009AD
Turns played: 429
Base score: 1132
Final score: 1331
Time played: 9:02:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0429 - 2009 n. Chr..Civ5Save
Renamed file: subber_C501301.Civ5Save

leif erikson
Jun 09, 2011, 03:45 PM
Hi this is my first GOTM because the MAC version finally got the last patch.
Welcome to Civ5 GoTM. :cheers:

And thankfully, the Mac version is now patched up to windows. Nice to see you in the game. Congrats on your win. :thumbsup:

Jun 09, 2011, 04:05 PM
He even nuked the city which was nice because it brought my happiness from -10 to around 0 thus making my units more powerful and my spaceship production faster. :D

Haha epic!

Jun 09, 2011, 04:07 PM
Thanks, subber. Your entry has allowed me to add a translation for the German Science victory to the submission script.

Welcome to a fellow Mac user, MacPlayJay. :wavey:

Jun 10, 2011, 02:50 AM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-10
Reference number: 24371
Your name: godotnut
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1850AD
Turns played: 295
Base score: 778
Final score: 1318
Time played: 13:54:00
Submitted save: finishRamkhamhaeng_0295 AD-1850.Civ5Save
Renamed file: godotnut_C501301.Civ5Save

Meh, not my best game. I used plentiful RAs (but not any serious blocking) and bulbed techs with all of my scientists this time to compare my results trying other approaches. Oddly, my result was almost exactly the same as an attempt with the same settings, except playing as the French and using very few RAs (and no blocking at all), while settling my first four or five scientists as academies.

Another difference in strats between these games is that with the French I went deep in rationalism pretty early and conquered several puppets for a larger empire but with fewer base cities. For this GOTM, instead, I went down the left half of the patronage tree before hitting rationalism and settled four cities early but didn't puppet any the entire game. Despite these differences, I finished only two turns difference between them, with the French edging Siam by a hair.

Conversations here would have led me to believe that I would have done better bulbing all of the scientists rather than settling the early ones and staying peaceful for more RAs. But that wasn't the case in my little comparison. Of course there are so many other variables that who knows, really, but I thought the comparison was interesting.

Jun 10, 2011, 03:44 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-10
Reference number: 24372
Your name: slugster
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1725AD
Turns played: 255
Base score: 1076
Final score: 2109
Time played: 15:36:00

I started by playing a few tests game to get a feel for the legalism trick, but didn't felt that it was a significant boost in a emperor level game. And as it seems everybody else would go for that route I thought (as Tabarnak) that it would be interesting to do something else to compare the results. So I choose to combine that with no RAs, which means that I would need to hard research a lot.

My initial strategy was to focus on culture and stay small. So NC first and then I settle my second city in the nice spice/river area to the east. The second city got a bit delayed because of two barbs blocking my way. I wanted to settle a third city, but was very indecisive. I wanted a spot with minimum 3 luxuries and water access, but it just didnt happen or the AI got to them first. Near turn 100 I finally decided for a spot on the other side of China, close to Egypt, where I could get a good city going with some Gold. But it was a little late and it never really caught up to my two first cities, which probably was the one decision that cost me the most. The other was being too slow on going on the offensive.

For SPs I went for Liberty first. I hoped for a culture ruin, but popped a tech (Pottery, very nice) and a +1 pop. And that was it. I somehow dodged a lot of ruins only to see the AI take them one turn before I could reach them. So instead I borrowed money from the AI to reach 250 gold at turn 18 and invest in Bucharest for +6 culture. It didnt last long since it was Hostile, but it did give me the worker SP and later (with another 250g) the free Great Person. Here I chose a Great Engineer to settle at my capital on a Cow for +4 production. I would have to build a lot of buildings and wonders, so those +4 helped a lot.

My SP path went to Patronage for the tech boost, and then to Freedom for the +50% great person growth. And finally I managed to get down the Rationalism tree to the 2 free techs. The boost from Patronage (and no gold spend on RAs) made it possible to ally with a lot of culture CSs, so all in all I got quite a few SPs. This combined with an early Hagia Sofia resulted in 10 GPs produced across my cities. 8 were scientist and 2 were engineers. One for a quick boost to my third city (which was a mistake, it came too late), and one to hurry Statue of Liberty for faster space part production (maybe a mistake as well, but it made it possible to focus on Research Lab at that point).

With no RAs I would focus on the science buildings and on boosting my population. The CS science bonus is nice (and vital in the mid-game), but in the end of the game, the bulk of my science will come from my own cities. So I prioritized early Aquaducts and also teched Fertilizer (though decided on this a little late). When I had teched Biology and Steam Power I used 3 GS to quickly get to Research Lab buildings (in a RA heavy game I would have used them to get to Apollo, but I needed the tech first). Along with the boost from SPs (both CS science and Specialist/Tradepost bonus) I had around 900 beakers. Not stellar, but enough to push at a decent speed.

I tried to stay peaceful, but signed no friendship deals. If just one AI decides to backstabs you it hurts like hell in the relationships with everybody else. So instead I kept a minimal force and waited for the first DOW. This game was strange though. All the AI were Friendly to me all the time (except a few Neutrals in the beginning) and then wham! some of the DOWed me. After the peace they were Friendly againg. I never saw Guarded or Hostile or anything else. So most of the wars were quite scary since I had no idea when or where it would be. And due to my silly city placement (on both sides of China) I had a fragmented empire and it took a looooong time to get units from one side to the other (I had to have Open Borders from China all the time).

To make matters worse Rome and Egypt DOWed me at the same time. But as others have noted, defending against the AI is quite easy. One ranged unit in the city and maybe a singly unit to mob up and you can defend against hordes. I did experience the AI pillage me once, but mostly they just dance around and cant decide what to. When Egypt DOWed me I was actually in a very vulnerable position with a GE only guarded by a warrior and Egypt had a horseman within range. So I instantly asked for peace and suprisingly he agreed if I gave him 300g. I decided that was worth saving my GE, so I said yes. But then the turn after he declared war again!!! I though the peace was 10 turn minumum???? Anyways, it still meant that I could settle the GE and avoid the loss, but I felt quite cheated.

I think i was in a war against either Rome, Egypt, Arabia or America for most of the game since turn 120 or so. All wars were started by the AI, which means that it is ok to attack back (no diplo hit) as long as you dont wipe them out. Normally I would have done that the first time, but with the double DOW from both Rome and Egypt I sent me on the defense instead. Later, when Rome DOWed me again (sigh) I decided to finally get some puppets and used 10-12 turns to build a small army of 2 cannons, 2 elephants and a LS (upgraded warrior). Luckily America decided to attack Rome as well and this meant that his units were cannonfodder while I positioned my cannons and took Rome and got Attrium(?) in the peace settlement. Those two cities gave me some more money, but not much science. It also happened quite late (turn 190ish). I think if I had focused more on military and used all the wars better and earlier I would have improved the end result. Hard to say.

All in all a very funny and different game. Oh, and as many others, I was also baffled by the non-coal from Ragusa. I ended up trading coal from Arabia around turn 220. At that point I had actually build a settler and was ready to settle besides the coal close to America/Rome.

Btw. the time spent is quite misleading since I often just leave the game and return after several hours. But I do use quite a few hours (I like to consider my options :-), so maybe its half of that time ..

Jun 10, 2011, 04:35 PM
I started by playing a few tests game to get a feel for the legalism trick, but didn't felt that it was a significant boost in a emperor level game. So I choose to combine that with no RAs, which means that I would need to hard research a lot.

To make matters worse Rome and Egypt DOWed me at the same time. But as others have noted, defending against the AI is quite easy. On ranged unit in the city and maybe a singly unit to mob up and you can defend against hordes. I did experience the AI pillage me once, but mostly they just dance around

Excellent game. With such restrictions, this is probably the best overall game played so far. AIs need to team up to actually have a little chance to do some damage to human players! Even that, like you said, they just ''dance'' around! :lol:

Your strategy make me think about how scholastisism can be really powerful when you can have access to a lot of CS soon enough. I bet you hard build universities, i probably would have better results if i just hard builded them and keep money for more RAs(didnt take the scho. route).

Again, well done.

Edit : What is unclear is the legalism trick. From games played so far, it's hard to tell which approach is the best. One thing is sure : the legalism trick doesnt seem to do a dominant effect. In fact it may cripple some other things along the way. Lack of rivers may partially explain this like MadDjinn and Airay already mentionned it.

Jun 10, 2011, 05:28 PM
Edit : What is unclear is the legalism trick. From games played so far, it's hard to tell which approach is the best. One thing is sure : the legalism trick doesnt seem to do a dominant effect. In fact it may cripple some other things along the way. Lack of rivers may partially explain this like MadDjinn and Airay already mentionned it.

It's a good trick, but not a massive overpowering ability. For starters, you really need 4 good cities to maximize it, but there really wasn't a great spot for a 4th (the two cities most people built were to the E for the Gems and Spices and on the Marble to the NE).

As several folks have pointed out, you also need decent production in at least the last two cities since you will need to crank out a Monument and a Temple pretty quickly. If the production isn't there, then you end up having to buy the Temple for 580g (which I had to do).

I feel that our position on this map really didn't lend itself very well to taking full advantage of Legalism for the free Wats. In a lot of ways, it felt like an "all-in" strat that was very susceptible to things going wrong (like an early AI war).

Jun 11, 2011, 03:40 AM
Your strategy make me think about how scholastisism can be really powerful when you can have access to a lot of CS soon enough. I bet you hard build universities, i probably would have better results if i just hard builded them and keep money for more RAs(didnt take the scho. route).

This strategy worked well because I had access to many cultural CSs early on (though most of them Hostile) and I also got two of them for "free" by clearing a barb camp - its really nice of them when they target the same camp :). For the wats I hardbuilded the one in my capital (with the settled GE I had a nice production, so I think it took 7 or 8 turns). My second city was not that developed so here I had saved up some money and simply purchased the wat. The third city arrived later and got a settled GE as well, but didnt have the pop to justify a purchase, so I just took 12 turns to build it.

I got Education at around turn 100 (after a small detour to Metalworking for the GE and workshops - this was a builder strategy), so my Wats arrived a little later than with legalism, but not much. And my cities had a much bigger population and were ready to take advantage of them. When I have tried the legalism trick in test games (ok, on some quite different maps) I could get the Wats around turn 85, but I felt i hurt the pop growth and city development quite a lot. In this game my two starting cities ended at (I think) 29 and 28 pop. And my second city ended up being able to build the last spaceship parts in 5 turns.

Jun 11, 2011, 10:36 AM
turn 200 I give up,

Harun just surpassed me in Tech, has 9 CS already allied, has 228 gpt and still 5 Luxuries free to trade, he will definitely win a Diplomatic win.

Since turn 150 he has more than 160 gpt!

I was hoping to outtech him, but should have gone for him earlier.

I just payed 1000 gold to take an ally from Harun for coal, to get my factories, but he just bought them back, he has over 2000 in cash as well.

I was not doing bad, with no RA's, 4 Wats at turn 100, SciThe at ~150. Have 5 GS's already lined up + Oxford & SciRev still + ~3 GS's to come, an early 300+ win I would have expected, I have only have ~10 techs still to discover myself.

Till now 1 war with America, went out ok, everyone is friendly now, or neutral. Biggest challenge was happiness.

Next time better, BTW, 1st time I see such a monster development of a Civ on this level

Jun 11, 2011, 12:09 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-11
Reference number: 24376
Your name: drubell
Game status: Science Wrong VC
Game date: 1914AD
Turns played: 335
Base score: 723
Final score: 1095
Time played: 9:24:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0335 AD-1915.Civ5Save

I don't know why it's telling me I got the "wrong VC." I clearly won by launching a spaceship in 1914 which was the designated VC. A lot of the time spent was writing a log as I was playing so other players can read it and determine how I could've easily improved my play.

I am by no means a good and experienced Civ player, and have no business being on Emperor level, but here’s the steps I made to take the decisions did. If anyone can provide some feedback to my choices, I’d appreciate it. This is actually my second game ever on Emperor, and never played Civ 4 much, so this was all very new to me except for what I know from playing Prince often.

There are links to screenshots so if you haven't completed the game don't look at them

I decided before starting the game that I was going to settle in place. The start looked interesting but without an obvious river site I knew that gold was going to be a large issue. So playing with the Legalism Wat trick would have been interesting but I didn’t want to risk a bad empire from the start. I want to make sure I can make get the gold from the fish without any complications; I would certainly grab the gems later.

Currency, I felt, was going to be a very important tech to help with my cash. I also needed a site for excess resources. I was also planning for a peaceful game without making a city where another civ would obviously go to war for the land. I just want to grow, grow, grow.

After turn 35, this journal is being written as I play.

I took my warrior west, where I found I was hugging coast. There was a barb camp very close to me unfortunately, but I did make sure to get my 30 gold from Bucharest. Rome came from the north, far north; he likely isn’t going to be a threat. I opened with Animal Husbandry to improve the cattle, then pottery/sailing seemed obvious. I sent my scout east to find a nice horse/spice/fish site, and I realize that the north end of my capital borders a lake, not an ocean! I am happy I settled where I did. I pop a culture hut early which I put into Tradition. My scout pops Archery, which wasn’t as interesting as Mining, but gives me the option of taking out the barbs with Archers.

At this time I’m interested in scouting the southeast end of this map (connect the gems and spices instead of the coastal horse/spice site?) and also see if the river in Bucharest flows to the south and I can make a nice commerce city there.


Since I realized it was just a big lake, I took my warrior back south. I found Rome’s border (and it was certain that I was not going to peacefully get any of those whales). The warrior pops a map hut and the land is good but unfortunately the river didn’t flow down there. It might be interesting after all to make it a commerce city but I’m not certain yet. I certainly don’t have any opposition for the west site at least.

On the other hand, the east land is VERY VERY good. The extra gem, 2 spices, fish, and two cattle makes the most obvious city site ever. If there was a river there too, I would’ve called it a hax city. I plan to settle where Wu’s scout is at the moment so I can make use of riverside farms for more growth and gold. I believe I take Legalism somewhere between these turns.


Not much exploration in general. I take a lot of time beating back barbs. I take the barb camp to the west on turn 35 and my scout takes the barb camps to the east (I’ll be sending that warrior back to the east and clear out my city site. Washington appears eventually from the west, so I assume he’s west of Bucharest; not a serious threat. The only threat I’m worried about so far is if Wu is close to the east and will get upset if I build to the east.

I take Mining to get the gems going, then Writing for Open Borders selling/NC. I take Landed Elite and currently I plan to get Monarchy next (the gold and happiness will be very welcome). I didn’t plan the turns perfectly though; when I finish producing my worker and work boat, I had 3 turns of “waiting” before I can tech Writing and get my library going. As you can see, I’m taking this opportunity to sink some hammers into another worker (will switch to Library as soon as soon as Writing techs).

Current plan is to focus on hammers to get the library running and then NC, and then get my settler out.


I get Writing and turn to Production focus and work on the Library. Sending the warrior back to heal in the capital and then clear out the east. I won some battles with my scout and so promoted him with Survivalism (in retrospect, not a great idea, but I really wanted my scout to clear out these camps).

At this point, I’m wishy-wishy on my Tech choices. I could go for Iron Working and see if any of the land I’m interested in has Iron, but that doesn’t really fit directly into my game plan. I could go directly for Currency as I planned, but Wheel isn’t going to help me immediately until I get the second city running and Mathematics is useless to me until I know if I have Iron for catapults. I don’t need to go to Civil Service right away because I’m not dealing with fresh water farms. The option to have the Pike would be the most interesting thing to me at the moment out of Civil Service. Optics would, on the other hand, benefit the fish I have right now with a Lighthouse, and also push me into the Classical Era.

So I take Optics, will do Iron Working in case I need defense, and then work toward Currency. That’s the plan, at least. It slows down my work to Education, but I feel that overall it will make for a stronger empire.

Turn 41, I take my scout north and find a wounded brute with a worker! I take it and am very happy about this circumstance. Washington also declares war on Caesar, which is awesome because it’s not me. Very good turn!

On Turn 45, I finish researching Optics, and as you can see I’m just now finishing escorting my new worker to the capital with my scout. My warrior is healed too, and my scout will look for Wu’s lands while my warrior will keep pressuring barbs in the east (lottts of barbs there geez) I will research Bronze Working at the very least before deciding whether or not to go directly for Currency.


Turn 48, Washington and Rome declare peace (waaat, already?) Washington got the better end of the deal I think since he is rich now. Wu has a LOT of very very pointy sticks I find out, so my plan is still to know just how far away she is before I consider settling east. I teched Bronze Working and will then move toward Currency. I believe this is the best tech move (and correct me if I am wrong.). With the free worker, I’m also much more willing to research Wheel earlier for the eventual trade route.

On Turn 49, I find Wu. She is east of me as I expected, but at this point I don’t know if that’s her capital (I just see the green border) so basically I don’t know where she plans to build her next city. This is really the only diplo threat I’m worried about at this time. As you can see, is connected by a small land bridge (can’t tell yet if there’s another way around). I sold her Open Borders and am not particularly pressed to buy it back yet, so I’ll deal with not knowing her lands yet.

By Turn 55, my capital’s resources are almost all improved. My settler is getting production focus and is almost done. I also get my next social policy, which I immediately put into Monarchy. I’m going to want to get to the Medieval Era before my next policy because I’m going to want Secularism I think, but only if I decide Bucharest is interesting to buy with my limited gold intake. It is a hostile city-state so I think it would be a waste of gold.

I see that fish/cattle/spice city at the east part of the map here that would get me a lot of gold but I am certain Wu would not like me settling there.


My settler finally finishes! The city site it suggests is interesting. Having a riverside city and culture-grabbing the luxuries. However, in my not-so-expert opinion, settling on the 2-food coast tile will still be better. That way I can work the fish, possibly go for Merchant Navy, I’ll be getting food and gold from working those luxuries asap, and I can culture grab the river-side farms any other time.

I also realize at this point that I haven’t teched Calendar yet. So I will make this quick change before finishing Currency. It’ll take some time to work those spices anyway, so I shouldn’t be too bad off. I’d like an opinion of whether or not it was wise for me to ignore the city site the game suggested and settle on the 2-food tile. Though I wouldn’t be settling on a resource, I think it’s the best way to culture-grab river-side farms later (much-later, unfortunately).

Also, my capital grabbed those pearls! So building a work boat there immediately after the College is now done.

Except at Turn 63, I realize I made a goof. I can’t get those pearls from this side. So what I plan instead is to settle where I planned to, buy the fish tile, and use that work boat to hook up the fish as soon as possible. I also bite the bullet and buy Open Borders with Wu to see where her city was. Beijing was right there as soon as I walked in! I am very grateful I didn’t get greedy and settle on the river. I think Wu is much less likely to declare from where I am. My other worker is beginning a road (since my pop is sufficient with my improvements), but since I couldn’t work those pearls after all, I’ll probably change my mind. My build order in the second city is library/lighthouse/market

I am considering settling my third city west after all. I don’t want Wu to declare on me because I don’t want to get in a war. She has a lot of units in her capital, and I will know very soon what she plans to do with them. I also realize my warrior was out of position. I’m taking him back to my capital, checking the west, and then maybe explore Rome a bit.

Somewhere in here Washington offers a DoF with me but I’m still fairly sure that Rome and Washington are going to declare again later and I don’t want to get involved in it.


Around turn 70, I realized that the units were for Gandhi! Gandhi was at war with her, had a very high score and had a city near her capital. She is bombarding it heavily, so I am glad for this. However, this gave me not many options for my next city even though I was definitely going to pump it out immediately. In the following screenshot, there is a potential site with marble and whales, as well as the ability to make the work boat for my capital’s pearls, but it’s filled with desert and marsh to clean out, and also doesn’t have much in the way of hammer tiles to get a lot of production out of the city. It’s a tentative site for now, but I do think I have the room and resources for 4 cities.

I finish Currency, and so I believe I will work toward Iron Working -> Masonry -> Construction and then really crank out the Science techs and get to Education immediately. After I get my third settler moving I will likely go for the Great Library in my capital to help bulb me there.

71- Wu declares peace after taking Gandhi’s city
74- Caesar declares on Washington (good thing I didn’t take that DoF with Washington)

I also meet Egypt at this time.


Iron is revealed. It is now clear that I will definitely be taking the west city site (only 2 iron, but the east area is also only 2 iron. Only iron on my little lake area. On Turn 76 my settler suggests that I take the marble/whales city and I think as long as I limit its growth I can’t complain with it. So I’m going to settle there, though maybe overall it’s not the best move?


I have a decision to make here. Rome just made Antium very close to where I plan to settle (a really crappy city for him too). I really have to weigh whether or not to commit to this city. Rome is stronger than I am and I don’t want to get into a conflict with him. Nevertheless, I can potentially get 15 happiness from this city (including my capital’s pearls). I have no choice but to make the city, and I hope that the fact I didn’t DoF Washington will help my diplo with Rome. I just hope I didn’t make a critical mistake. I purchase a work boat for the fish in the third city and will likely do the same for the whales when I get culture for that (retro: I buy that tile after all because the city wants to grow and take the river land first). I purchase another work boat to work the capital’s pearls. For now I build a library.

I also establish my trade route between the capital and second city and am going to work the third city’s resources. This free worker is definitely pulling his weight! My warrior is still scouting north and New York is very well almost burnt down. I’m very glad to still be peaceful. I put hammer production into the Great Library and HOPE I can time it with Education and finally get that. Hopefully another Civ won’t take it first.

Around 90 a wounded barb drops by to die in my capital looking at Washington/Rome and I decide that I had put my warrior out of position again. I’m just going to keep him in the capital and now my scout is embarked to explore. Caesar just left his war with Washington so I am even more worried about a DoW from him now that he’s not dealing with Washington.

97- I get a new policy, but unfortunately I didn’t get it before the Renaissance which would’ve been in not too long, but that’s my mistake. I don’t feel I had a good choice except for either Oligarchy or open up Commerce. My capital has respectable income right now and so I open Commerce. The rest of my social policies will either be for going for Merchant Navy opening Rationalism and getting some Science policies, I feel.


Well here’s the map where I am at this point. I get the Great Library next turn (I will delay it a turn to make sure I get Civil Service first I think and then will bulb Education. I’m getting my workers to improve the third city, will road it soon, and then make the fourth and final city. I’ve embarked my scout and have met many city-states that I might ally with, but I don’t think I need any maritime bonuses. If anything I’ll buy a culture city. Unless I’m getting declared on, I don’t think there’s going to be any surprises. I am #1 in science, money, and growth by far at this point. The only possible threat I can see is Rome declaring on me, and if I think he’s going to, I’ll bribe Washington to go to war with him.

So updates will be more infrequent. I will be doing my best to get my fourth city up,

I’m getting enough GPT that I’m taking RAs.

Making sure every city is getting a wat->lighthouse->market -> circus (if applicable or needed)

Compass -> Astronomy -> Horseback Riding (that would be embarrassing to RA) ->Metal Casting -> Navigation -> bulb Archeology from a GS


Made my fourth city, purchased a library and lighthouse, also purchased a third worker to improve it and purchased a work boat for the fourth city, building wat -> market in it. Will upgrade the warrior when I get the iron worked. Building a caravel to meet the last 2 civs and then Porcelain Tower in the capital. After wats I will start on workshops over markets.

128- Wu declares on Gandhi. I reopened borders with Rome but the amount he’s willing to sell for is going down, which to me is a sign of an early DoW. I’m making sure to keep money in the bank for a rushbuy of units if need be. Washington comes in with another DoF a little later but I refuse again. I don’t want to piss off Rome at all.

134- Wu makes peace with Gandhi
138- Finally find Arabia!
139- RA gives me Steel which is fine. I’m currently catching up on all the techs that will bring me to Biology.
153- Wu takes Gandhi’s capital
157- Wu conquers India. I severely hope she doesn’t make me her next target.
160- America and Arabia (next turn) denounce China. As long as they’re not looking at me, I still don’t care, and it gives Wu a target who isn’t me!


Things are still doing well. I’m getting a lot of money from excess resources and my fourth city is now my commerce city and making trading posts there. I rushbuy things like seaports or workshops if I feel the production is worth getting now (bought a seaport and workshop in the fourth city). My next SP will be secularism which will make my science even better. Hopefully I can get Free Thought too, but that’ll be 43 turns. Porcelain Tower is almost done. I have a GS for bulbing Biology and another for what I feel will be useful later.. I made sure to put scientists in my wats as soon as they were made so I should get getting more GS soon. I also have about 2 or 3 outstanding RAs coming in soon.

Caesar’s not very fair with trades so I’m making an elephant to put on my third city’s borders just in case. I’ll likely make a second one too.

I finally find Oda on my next turn too. Sneaky little guy! I sell him Spices and make a RA with him.


This may be my solution to deal with Mr. “I am Caesar I don’t need to make fair trades with you.” Wu will go to war with Caesar for 550 gold if I need her to. However, I realize that the units on my north border are not Rome’s but from city-states fighting each other. I had no problem with those units blocking Caesar from getting units to me! So I don’t have any immediate plans to bribe Wu to declare on Caesar, but I am glad to know it’s an option.


However, when I start working on this farm, I see some units from Wu. I’m not going to gamble on to why she is there; her only global diplomacy is that she denounced Arabia. I’m not going to risk a DoW. I’m going to take her denunciation of Arabia to my advantage and make this trade to go to war with Arabia.

Porcelain Tower finishes and I’m going to continue in hammer focus to make Oxford. The next turn she advances more units onto my lands, and Egypt denounces China. I don’t really know what to expect here. I expected her units to move to Arabia after I get them in a war, so I have no idea what she’s planning to do with her units. And at 180, she finally declares on me (but at least I was able to get her into war with Arabia too).

This isn’t a terrible time for this I think because my cities have all of the buildings I wanted; wat, market, library, lighthouse, seaport, monument (along with a few happiness buildings I needed). I’ll stave off my Oxford rush and start making elephants to fend off Wu (who has muskets and knights). I also finish Scientific Theory and bulb Biology, and buy an elephant.


Her units leave. Maybe she went to attack Arabia after all? If so, I am SO glad I made that bribe. Still, I will continue to keep making some elephants since Rome has a Legion embarked near me too. 3 elephants and my longsword should work out alright I think. But then Wu’s units come back next turn. Anyway, this is what things look like at the moment.


As you can see, I am not too good at war.. some tips would be appreciated as for what to do in this situation. This is a recurring problem in all of my games; I never have the amount of units that I should. I’m trying to make buildings after all. When should I be making units? Rome declares on me too the next turn. Still I did get to this many turns before my first DoW. I stop my Porcelain Tower production to get my capital to push out another elephant.


After a very close war, this is starting to end in my favor. I was literally one turn away from losing the second city with China’s damn unique archers. Rome only attacked me with archers and spears, so thank god he did not have advanced units. His couple legions are no match for my elephants. I lost my initial warrior/longsword and two elephants. Buying elephants was crucial to winning this assault. I’ll be finishing up the elephants I’m making now and then focus back on winning the game. Need to build Public Schools.


Next turn Wu comes to ask for a peace treaty if I get her EVERYTHING I own. I decline. Rome also asks for a peace treaty but I refuse for now. I want to kick him out of my borders and see if he’ll give me gold with that treaty too. A few turns later, I upgrade some elephants with cavalry Rome is quite happy to give me all of his stuff to peace. Everything worked out just fine.

I go for a Ironworks -> National Market in the capital because of the Commerce bonus, then will make Public School there. My other cities are working on Public School as well. I tech Fertilizer and then bulb Electricity, Refrigeration, and Plastics to push me into the Modern Era.


This is what we’re looking at here. I have a cavalry looking at Wu’s land in case she comes back, otherwise the rest of my cavalry is going to garrison and otherwise just stick around. Rome is guarded and won’t trade with me, but he lost his chance. He’s a garbage civ now. Unfortunately, my demographics are bad except for my literacy. At this point I’m just doing everything I can to tech and rush to the spaceship.


I get my next SP which I put into Free Thought. Rome settled the deer but that’s fine, it’s a crap city. But why does Washington have Minutemen on my borders? What’s this all about? Will be building Circus Maximus in capital, then get research labs going. I’m also adding specialists for my workshops. I also ally with Seoul.

I have a lot of money and should be taking use of my UA, and it is a neutral cultural city-state with a luxury resource I don’t have so it appeals to me.


Wu finally gives me a straight up peace treaty which I sign. I will get Globalization next turn and need to take a SP, so I will bulb Telegraph and Electronics. I had never played Siam before so I didn’t realize just how good it is to ally with cultured city-states, so I may have misplayed by not getting the culture boost sooner. In any case, I will take Scientific Revolution and then decide whether to finish out the Rationalism tree or go to Order. Merchant Navy doesn’t appeal to me at the moment because I don’t want to go through Naval Tradition to get it, and the rest of the Rationalism and Order tree are good for my empire.

Capital gets a Bank then Granary.


A few turns back I made a bad error in not realizing that Spaceship Factories required Factories, which I was not building. I didn’t have coal so I bought some cheap coal from Washington and am building factories. I don’t know if I’ll have the time to build spaceship factories before I need to get my ship built, but the factory alone will help a bit. But this mistake is going to cost me turns. I turn on Production focus and probably won’t turn that off for the rest of the game. I have specialists in all of my science and production buildings (unless I don’t get much benefit from a production specialist). I also get a new SP after that realization and decided that Order was definitely what I needed to build these factories, so I took that.

But then I’m also worried about Egypt. He has 5/5/4/4 SPs.. why doesn’t Wu ever go after him instead? I take note that I need to win soon. I’m not going to waste time with Space Stations; if I wanted those factories up I needed them much sooner. I’m instead going to just go factory -> mechs, get the spaceship parts as I need them, and hopefully win in a decent time. I plan to rushbuy mechs too; I don’t think there’s anything else I want to do with my gold.

I put my workers on automate after I got Free Thought and now they’re just making trading posts.. maybe I could’ve micro’d better.

Next turn I move a cavalry to see Wu is already getting ready to stomp me again. I get my cavalry out am going to buy mechs.


This is pretty clear. I sell her excess spices, and now I’m going to denounce her and DoW her and take that artillery out now.


I make a nice preemptive DoW on Wu and take out three cannons and a few rifles with a GG, I lost my two cavalry garrisoned on the east cities, but my mech tore things up. However, the amount of units Washington has is a bit unsettling. I try to make a DoF to see if that would force him to keep out of war with me for a few turns. He declines, and I’m anticipating a very costly DoW.

So I try to make this trade:


Trade goes through and I buy another mech. It’s possible that Washington is just moving a lot of troops to that junk city to the south, and I’m just going to have to trust that, because I am absolutely dead if he DoWs.


Never trust other civs.. Washington declares on me, and so we’re looking at a very possible bad end. Two of my mechs are out of position because I wanted to harass Wu, but I did just finish another mech in the capital. I have some GS sitting around waiting for me to finish Rocketry but I’m going to have to just bulb them now so they don’t die. I will start the Apollo Program as soon as it bulbs and before it finishes I’m going to need to continue to push out mechs.

I also have a cavalry that it’s in a good position to really damage a cannon, so I’ll see what I can do. This just leaves Particle Physics and Nanotechnology to make before I launch, so I don’t need all of these science specialists anymore. I remove my scientists.


The initial fights aren’t too bad. It would’ve been a lot worse if I hadn’t had the mech in my capital made, and getting a GG was so nice to have too. I think the bribe split Washington’s forces because now he’s destroying Rome. Overall, I’m doing pretty well after the DoW. But now Rome is setting up on my borders too?!


Wu makes peace with me because Arabia happens to be kicking her ass. This is fine for me because Washington also asked for everything I owned a little earlier. I’m leaving a mech up on the third city in case Rome does something silly, but otherwise I’m going to attack San Fran to try and a better treaty.


I attack and raze San Fran. I also open borders with Caesar because I think I’m going to use my cavalry to take out a cannon. I really have nothing to gain by letting Washington take that Rome city. Wu is about to lose her second city, making her now, finally, not a threat! I’m thinking of getting rid of that American city on the southeast of my borders, but it’s such a bad and small city that I don’t think I’ll take the happiness hit for it. My goal is to just get Washington to give me a treaty in my favor. Apollo Program in 6 turns.


Apollo Project finished. Rome is also finished except for some crap city near my border. This isn’t great because America now has two strong points to attack me from. I get my next (and likely last) SP in my next turn, and I am going to make it Nationalism. The only thing stopping me from victory is Washington swarming me, which I am sure he’s going to try. All production is going to spaceship parts now, still hammer focus.


Jun 11, 2011, 12:09 PM

From the picture, things are progressing as you’d imagine. I bought Bucharest (and Florence at the same time since Bucharest took over Florence). I’m keeping Seoul my ally as well, and I also bought Monaco which is way over near Egypt. The last space part will finish in 3 turns (and I think I timed the part productions pretty well). Seoul, Florence, and Bucharest were bought to be buffer states to stop Washington before he would swarm me again. As shown, it’s being successful and he won’t be to hit me before I launch.

I considered buying Bucharest earlier but it was under Arabian control and didn’t want to piss him off by buying it. He lost control right as I needed him to.

Wu was wiped off the map by Arabia a while ago, and he’s friendly with me so I’m thankful for that. He has the Manhattan Project and the Apollo Program. I assume he’s also going for space victory but I will beat him to it. Egypt is 5/5/5/5/2, so I was narrowly able to win that too. He’s working on Rationalism (which doesn’t make sense to me because he has filled in Piety) What I don’t understand is why he decided to grab Anjar at whenever point he did; I think taking that city really slowed his cultural press down (unless puppeted cities don’t count toward the extra culture for SP? I don’t know). I’m assuming Washington is going for domination. He’s sent some units down, but Nationalism really helped my mechs destroy them. The huge swarm shown in this picture, however, would’ve just been a complete disaster if I let him by not buying Bucharest. I don’t know what Oda’s doing; he’s not pushing for any victory that I see!


I get my next SP this turn, but who cares since I have my last part to my capital? I launch in 1914. I think it was my best science victory and was only the second game I’ve played on Emperor, but I felt I made a lot of crucial errors which really lagged my game. I was going very well until the first DoW from Wu. I played the game out after my win and it was only going to be 5 more turns before Washington took Bucharest, finished off Rome, and then would turn to destroy me.

Actually, I was surprised about all the DoW. This was my second Emperor game, and on my first, I didn’t get DoW’d once (continents map). There was only one time I saw units near my troops in that particular game, but was able to bribe someone else to go to war with that civ and those units left immediately. I tried bribing civs to war in this game and I got DoW anyway so I don’t know if the bribe was even effective. Still, it’s possible my bribe with Wu to DoW Arabia was why Arabia destroyed her, and my bribe with Washington to declare on Rome was why he went to finish off Rome before me. I did not make a DoF with anyone at all in this game (which I think helped my diplo more than it would’ve hurt), and only denounced/DoWed Wu.

So what could I have done better? Was my city placement off? Perhaps I could have put Lampang next to the mountain for an observatory, but the production in that city was pretty bad overall, so maybe I shouldn’t have made it at all. I put a lot of focus on Currency and markets early, perhaps that was a bad move? I also never RA blocked which I think I could’ve done at Rifling. It wasn’t until very late I started paying for city-states states, which meant I didn’t play too well to my UA, especially when I was buying happiness buildings when I could’ve just bought a city-state for the extra culture too. By the end of the game, aside from Literacy, I was had the worst demographics (not counting Rome of course with only a pop 3 city), which is frustrating because at Turn 100 I had the best growth and wealth and was pretty middle-of-the-pack with everything else. The only time I actually needed to spend time warring was just about 10 turns with Wu and about the same with Washington, so the only thing that stopped me from finishing sooner was my own choices in infrastructure.

Sorry for this very long play-by-play journal, but am hoping that some players would like to look at how I played because this typically is how I play most of my games in general and would like to improve.

Jun 11, 2011, 08:08 PM
I moved the captial NW. Build order was: Scout, (purchase worker), Settler, Warrior, Scout, Library, National College. Second city built: (purchase worker), Library, Settler. I stole 2 workers from Bucharest and 1 from a barb camp. went straight for Landed Elite, and didn't build a single culture building besides Wats. With two cultural city-state allies, that was enough to get Scholasticism and Scientific Revolution. I bought most of my luxury tiles to hook them up faster.

I used 2 early research agreements to unlock Wats. They were built at turns 92, 97, 106. I generated 5 great scientists by the end.

My main focus in the first 80 turns was growth. I always saved enough luxuries to keep positive happiness, and spent 1500 gold on maritime city-states before buying more research agreements.

The midgame was all about research agreements. I consistently had 5-6 going at once. I borrowed gold and loaned gold like crazy to make the deals work. I had over 200 completed deals by the end of the game. Since there was about 5 turns between each RA, I had time to block techs ( as needed to steer them along the spaceship path.

I eventually conquered Bucharest to complete 2 city-state quests. That complicated my relations with almost everyone, especially Harun and Ramsses who also coveted my wonders and victory condition. I think it might have been more profitable just to buy the city-states directly.

Washington picked a fight over my coal city, but my 2 initial warriors, now 100xp longswordsmen, held him off easily. was definitely the limiting factor in the endgame. I used 3 scientists to unlock Apollo Program early, but I could have cut 10 turns off my finish date if I used twice that many. I eventually used 2 scientists for golden ages in a belated attempt to balance out science and production.

Half Nelson
Jun 12, 2011, 05:21 AM
Just uploaded my game and listed as Science wrong VC:- what does this mean?

leif erikson
Jun 12, 2011, 06:17 AM
Just uploaded my game and listed as Science wrong VC:- what does this mean?
We'll look into it.

Did you get a summary of the upload or is that the only message the system provided? :hmm:

Half Nelson
Jun 12, 2011, 07:11 AM
I have a very slow broadband connection but the upload seemed fine. Got upload notification and email, both saying "Science wrong VC". The game details (turn 304 etc) look correct.

leif erikson
Jun 12, 2011, 07:13 AM
OK, thanks. I've left a note asking Alan to check on it.

Jun 12, 2011, 07:23 AM
Sorry about that. I updated the games database to add TSG 14, and set the new VC requirement on this game instead of 14.

Now fixed, and I've updated the "wrong VC" submissions to correct them as well.

Half Nelson
Jun 12, 2011, 09:04 AM
OK, thanks! I thought perhaps I had completely misread the game scenario!!

Jun 12, 2011, 09:43 AM

Sorry for this very long play-by-play journal, but am hoping that some players would like to look at how I played because this typically is how I play most of my games in general and would like to improve.

it's not a matter of's a matter of style. For example, i'm the always War kind of guy and those clusters of units(except that at the end from America) didn't scare me at all with the amount of units you had.
Personally in this game i went for the free settler and made the 2-nd city just like you, the 3-rd NW of the marble - which also forced rome to build in the direction of america and the 4-th east of the 2-nd city on the coast 1 tile away from the river so i could steal the cow/iron/gold from Wu across the channel - that pissed her off but what can she do when there's only 1(one) tile through which she can bring units in.

The rest was easy enough because i made a bunch of military units and conquered rome and washington, the last of which also gave me 7 coal. So i got a lot of gold(3000+) from conquering in the beginning, plus killing barbs for CS's which i didn't use to rushbuy anything, but ally city states - all the game those on my subcontinent were my allies, which brought me a lot of culture which i used for the +1/+3/+5 hammer policies. I finished in 1949, without micro on land or anything fancy(i generally use default/prod focus and that's it).

Also i like to play weird map settings like Sandstorm/legendary start(or sparse resources) - or pangeea/high sea lvl/3 bil years/arid/rain - weird maps come out :)

Half Nelson
Jun 12, 2011, 09:50 AM
Victory at my typical pedestrian pace (20h 27min!):- I slowed down particularly in this game as I tried to force a win in under 300 turns, but I left my micromanipulation too late. Settled 4 cities early (1NW capital, then N near marble, E on coast for gems, W on coast) and had Wats (via Legalism) at turn 110. Completed NC shortly after that. Was very pleased at this point but RAs dried up as the AIs slugged out war after war and always seemed short of cash. I built a fifth city on the E river for luxuries and control of the choke point. Captured Antium and Rome after Caesar DOW (leaving them one city):- these were my only long-term puppets. I completed only one wonder (GL from a Meritocracy GE) but eventually managed 12 complete RA (also 2 broken by DOW) and produced 7 GS. I missed out on the Porcelain Tower. I became allied with 4 nearby CS (annoying that most were hostile) and Arabia bought up the others. Arabia DOW around turn 250 which lasted until my victory. I captured Sydney (one of their allied CS) which resulted in a late Diplo knock from other AI. I used Liberty, Tradition, Patronage and Rationalism policies (reaching Scientific Revolution at turn 280). As the SS parts were being built I DOW on Washington (who had been sniping most of the game and broke a key mid-game RA), captured 2 cities then sold then to Egypt (my only friend by this point) to keep happiness under control. In retrospect, I can see opportunities to easily shave 30 or so turns off my game (earlier scientists; Porcelain Tower) but I think my major mistake was not to take Landed Elite to boost my core population. The five cities worked well for me (no happiness problems, each built at least one SS part). I had no coal problems, a 30 turn coal/oil+iron deal with Arabia was just long enough to complete factories. Arabia and Japan were the major AI players throughout, with Egypt holding up well:- Rome and China were conquered by AI.

Jun 12, 2011, 01:47 PM
I went through the first 150 turns or so in the Game in Progress thread- basically, rushed GL, built NC, settled 3 more cities, built Stonehenge, got 4 insta-Wats on turn 97, built Oracle.

Happiness and gold problems for a lot of the game, and America/China wars though these were not a problem. Popped 2 GSs from each Wat I believe. Waited too long to bulb Rocketry, but got Apollo on turn 266 and then shaved a few turns off the spaceship parts-building by buying Factories/Spaceship Factory/Stables/Harbor.

I got some coal from Ragusa, had them bought away from me, and got the rest of Egypt I believe.

Jun 12, 2011, 03:41 PM
Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-12
Reference number: 24381
Your name: dribnairb
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1973AD
Turns played: 393
Base score: 1121
Final score: 1437
Time played: 6:46:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0393 AD-1973.Civ5Save

I decided to play this with some self imposed restrictions:
No Research Agreements.
No resource trades except for other resources (ie. like for like)
No Legalism/Wat trick

Obviously was a bit strapped for cash in the beginning. Fairly peaceful though. Didn't even find China until quite late on! Having settled NW of the starting hex I couldn't use the seas to explore.
Rome eventually DOW'd. Got distracted trying to take him out. Eventually took his 3 cities and then settled a 3rd city of my own.
America DOW'd for no apparent reason, having been friendly all the time before (and after).

My capital became a production powerhouse (146/turn at the end). I had several wonders (Stonehenge, Notre Dame, Eiffel tower, Sistine Chapel, Statue Liberty, Taj Mahal, Gt Library, Oracle and Porcelain tower.

Egypt and Arabia were ahead most of the game having taken out China and India. They both reached modern and future eras before me. But they kept having brief wars which seemed to keep them busy.
Eventually Egypt DOW'd on me and I couldn't persuade Arabia to join me (Arabia built Apollo then seemed to give up on winning that way). The other remaining civs (Japan and America) were way behind. Fortunately I had allied lots of CS and kept adding more to keep Egypt occupied.

Around turns 330-350 it was obvious I would win unless Egypt could take my capital, and he had enough of an army to do it. Ramesses then popped up offering peace! Ok, he wanted 3 puppets. But if I'd accepted that it would have become a foregone conclusion. So I added another restriction that I wouldn't accept peace from him unless if I was in his position I would have accepted it (ie. never)

He then nuked me. Two or three times I think. But I held on, losing one city the same turn I finished Particle Physics. My few remaining units could stop him getting too close to my capital while I finished the SS engine. Having said that, he didn't attack me as much as I thought he would. Took him quite a while to get through Venice and Sydney and the only sea invasion consisted of three units I took out in one turn.

All in all I enjoyed this game more than most. I wasn't certain of victory for most of the game but always felt there was a chance. About half way through I was reading some of the "in progress" thread and felt I was waaaay behind most people, but given the restrictions I don't think it was too bad :)

Jun 12, 2011, 07:24 PM
Some paths observed(no handicaping restrictions uncluded) :

1. NC first, Tradition, no legalism trick
2. NC first, Tradition, legalism trick
3. NC first, Liberty, 3-4 cities, no legalism trick
4. NC first, Liberty, 3-4 cities, legalism trick
5. Cities first, Tradition, no legalism trick
6. Cities first, Tradition, legalism trick
7. Cities first, Liberty, no legalism trick
8. Cities first, Liberty, legalism trick

Jun 13, 2011, 04:04 PM
I replayed the game another two times to try out some different things (my original games are detailed in my earlier posts).

My 3rd game focused on settling a 4th city to the W of the capital (slightly W of where Iron pops up). This games me an extra free Wat which potentially translates into an extra Great Scientist before the game is over. It also gives me an extra city to help build Spaceship parts.

I assume that the optimal strategy for Science games is to get to Rocketry ASAP since the Apollo Program takes a while to build. Then you want to get to Robotics and Satellites pretty quickly. The former because you need 3 Boosters, and the latter because it is the easiest of the "expensive" SS parts to build.

In a 3-city game, your SS parts usually are built as follow (cities ranked in terms of productive capacity):
city-1: Cockpit, Engine
city-2: Booster, Stasis Chamber
city-3: Booster, Booster

In a 4-city game, you have some more flexibility. Usually something like:
city-1: Booster, Engine
city-2: Booster, Stasis Chamber
city-3: Cockpit
city-4: Booster

At least that how it worked out for me. The trick of course is to power through the end of the Tech Tree with as many RAs (assuming tech blocking) and Great Scientists as possible. This is much harder said than done. It is incredibly difficult to plan something this complex 50+ turns in advance, especially with all the moving parts of trades and wars. Some of my replays were focused on trying to tighten my planning ability.

My fastest finish in all 5 games was turn 237. My finishes were 237, 239, 237, 249, and 255 (in reverse order). Obviously knowing the map and what to expect helps a lot in subsequent replays.

Looking at DaveMcW's turn 219 finish was much faster than anything I could muster with free Wats. Without replaying it again, it's hard to know how much of this difference is Dave's superior play (he does finish first every time for a reason), and how much of it was his approach (no early culture buildings and no free Wats).

I have a couple of observations that I jotted down while playing. Here they are in no particular order:

1) Apparently Stables give a +15% production bonus when building SS components. I guess they technically are "Land Units" in a way...

2) Most folks probably know about this, but I found it out by complete chance in one of these games. It is possible to pop to different Great Persons from the same city on a given turn if they both reach the threshold on the same turn. Note that this will ONLY work if they are in the same city (because cities seem to process their turn effects in the order in which they were built). Being able to pop a GS and a GE late in the game without having to wait the extra +100 increment can be very useful. Not that after the two Great People pop, the GP counter is correctly increased by 200.

3) Why do Embarked military units (which are like sitting ducks when traveling in the oceans) blockade cities? This seems wrong to me. I feel like only offensive naval units (not Embarked units, except maybe amphibious ones) should be able to blockade.

4) One small "trick" I use when growing cities and about to run into Unhappiness is to have my cities "Avoid Growth" and reach the cap. Then once they are all at the cap, un-click "Avoid Growth" on them all which will allow all of them to grow on that turn. By doing this, you don't run into the -75% pop growth issue which sometimes prevents one of your cities from growing when you thought it might otherwise.

Jun 13, 2011, 04:18 PM
1st emperor win.
1st Science win.

Forgot to save though afterwards. :crazyeye:

Turn 363. 1943.
score 1592.

Made a lot of mistakes - especially getting loads of unhappiness. don't know why i expanded like i did...
Learned a lot though. thanks for all the info everyone is posting - really helps.

bring on the next one!

Jun 13, 2011, 07:50 PM
The beauty of the game showed from DaveMcW is that he can extract all the little things that we have difficulties to put together in the same game. The strongest part, i think, come from the 2 cultural CS allies. He got scholasticism soon enough and was be able to get scientific revolution in time despite all these policies taken.

I will check more attentively CS allying in next games. When i play multiplayer, i only see extra meat(puppets)... not used to see them like real powerful allies.

Not going for the legalism trick is i think a better way to play this map. Landed Elite can do some miracles for long term strats. Hard building universities seem more optimal than buying them(at least 1 only) to be able to ally more CS and/or sign more RAs.

Map is well suited for RA spamming.

You need 2 strong cities for last 2 parts. You need to discover both techs on same turn and start building them at the same time(what i couldn't do because of lack of hammers, wars, etc).

Have you only tried the legalism trick in your test games Muaziz?

Jun 13, 2011, 09:44 PM
Have you only tried the legalism trick in your test games Muaziz?

Yes, in all 5 of my games I did the Legalism trick. They weren't all complete games from turn 1 since I wanted to try out some different things at various key junctions in the game.

After TSG14, I'll probably go back and play it one more time as I would have done a "normal" game.

Jun 14, 2011, 02:46 AM
I expected coal, oil and aluminium (and uran) to be far away in foreign lands. So I decided to conquer the continent early; buidling military, not wats. I brought down rome, america, arabia and egypt, but left them with to one/two cities for future RA. With my puppets gold I bought all city states (conquered bucarest). Educated Elite got me 3 (or 4?) great artists and one great scientist.

Jun 14, 2011, 08:24 PM
@ DaveMcW: Nice win as usual. The main thing I learned from your post is the large number of RAs needed for really early wins. I can't decide whether to try to master this strat or ignore it, since I dislike the one-size-fits-all play style, and I very much hope tech blocking and overall RA balance issues are taken care of in the next patch.

Mind if I ask a couple questions? Did you build any wonders? Get any great people besides scientists? Also, did you finish the game with just those three cities?

Jun 14, 2011, 10:19 PM
Did you build any wonders? Get any great people besides scientists? Also, did you finish the game with just those three cities?

In Science and sometimes Diplo games you tend to build the Porcelain Tower for the free GS.

In Science games, I sometimes try to build some of these wonders: Great Library (free tech), Hagia Sophia (+33% generation of great people -- since Science games last a while and you will want a lot of GSs), Statue of Liberty (+1 Production for every Specialist in all Cities).

Getting Great Scientists and Scientific Revolution (for 2 Free Techs towards the end) are really important.

In a Diplo game, you will also want to get one Great Engineer to boost the United Nations. In a Science game, a GE cannot boost the Apollo Program or any SpaceShip parts, so most folks don't get a GE unless they get an early one for a Manufactory using the Meritocracy (free GP in the Liberty tree). Not sure how many folks use this latter approach, and I personally have not tried it myself.

Jun 15, 2011, 09:01 AM
Expanded too rapidly, let my army get thin and got wiped out by a dual declaration from Wu and Caesar at about 1200 BC. I conscripted some goons, but they had no chance against 4 legions and 4 horsemen.

Jun 16, 2011, 02:26 AM
Overall an exciting and fun game. I will keep my after action report short, since I am on vacation. Played the last 100 turns on my girlfriends lappy, in strategic mode. Seems to run a lot faster there. Also unlocked Tomb Raider and Empire of the East achivements. :)

After conquering Rome and most of America I ran into happiness problems. China dowed me, so over and take the chokecity from her. Then over to stop Arabia from running over Ghandi completely. Then having a big fight with egypt that got cut short because Arabia wanted a piece of me again. Egypt ended up being conquered by Japan twenty or so turns before I won.
I was very bad at taking notes and so, so not much details to go with. Had four core cities(whereof two were more or less useless), ended up building all parts save one booster in two cities. Timed it very well with acquiring the techs though, Capital built most parts. Had help with GA for all the spaceshipparts. Only did Hard researching, built oxford and poped two great scientists late game which probably saved me 12-15 turns.
Got 18 cities in all, 14 of which were puppets.
Policies I went with Tradition started a few in liberty and went patrionage for scholanticism. Then into Commerce and order for production. Policies after that for filling out the already opened trees and increas happy mostly. Probably would have been faster with rationalism than order though, with all my TP'ed puppets.

Lets put some pictures too: ( ( ( ( (

Think I will wait until I get back to Sweden before starting off on TSG14. I enjoyed this one very much, a lot of warmongering for a change. :)

Jun 18, 2011, 04:13 PM
quite an interesting game...
got beat to two wonders: Chichen and Taj, on the turn i would build them, i think i liked it better when those ties were resolved in players favour. does anyone know how that works?:confused:

even with those wonders i dont think i could shave off more then 6 turns. I got wedded to the idea of legalism trick, and waited sooo long to build wats, i got other culture buildings from RAs and didnt even get a single wat out of the deal. what a waste :crazyeye:

i got DOWed more then in any other game, Americans twice, romans egypt, india and arabia. i am sure china would have joined too if i didnt dow them first, i wanted those pyramids they built. at one point i think i had 4 AI against me, but they were their usual inept selves. too bad it cost me 3 or 4 RAs at a crucial time, i think these would have speeded things up by a number of turns.

still quite a fun game, and i must say i am pleased i ended placing my cities in same spots Dave McW had his, so i must be doing smething right, now if i could find a way to lose those 70 turns off the clock :p......

Jun 18, 2011, 07:18 PM
This was my first science game, and also the first game I spent a lengthy amount of time in the modern/future eras. I learnt a lot.

I tried the wats strategy, but must have buggered up the blocking technique because my culture was outpacing my science. I ended up having to waste a policy or 2 because i didn't have education, and hadn't got to the medieval age yet. So i eventially got my free wats, but it took much longer than I wanted. I also thought it would be silly to ignore Siam's special ability so I was agressive in buying the loyalty of cultural city states. Policies were focused on patronage 1st (up to scholasticism), and then rationalism.

My first play through seemed to be going smoothly; I had good relations and was scientifically advanced. However, I've now learnt that being friendly isn't enough- you have to have a defensive force as well. Washington was a constant pain in the ass- DOWing so he could invade my allied CSs that were near his boarders. He eventually did pick them off 1 by 1. First lesson- if you are relying on CSs, you must help defend them because they are pretty incompetent defending themselves against motivated Civs.

Washington's war mongering eventually brought him to my boarders so I had to forgo spaceship oriented construction to try and hold him off. Unfortunately, I had neglected production capacity and military units for growth and science so this was difficult. The end came when Arabia DOWed me with a massive and advanced invasion force. He had been my best friend up until then, but I probably should have seen it coming as he steam rolled India, and China on the way to owning half the globe. He took my financial city (surrounded by spices and gems) easily, which bankrupted me in one stroke. Even worse, this city had my uranium resource, and was lost one turn before I finished building 2 nukes. As a result, I learnt the following lessons:
- dont trust anybody. Friends will turn.
- don't neglect your defenses, which also means don't neglect production capacity.
- do share around the research agreements. I think one of the reasons Arabia got so powerful was because I prefered him to my closer neighbours when signing RAs and trading. Now I think you need to share the wealth around. It is generally better to keep all the Civs in the game at similar strength rather than help a monster to develop.

I know it is against the GOTM rules, but these are just practice games and I didn't want to waste however many hours i spent on this, so I went back in time and restarted from about 1700 before Washington got his role on. This time I focused a couple of cities on military production, bought off Ragusa to ensure I had coal and oil supplies, and helped guard Florence with naval and artillary units. I also had constant defensive pacts with Japan to make my eastern neighbours think twice. Washington still took out Rome, but wasn't able to make inroads against my allies. I also focused on RA's with India, to help him keep parity with Arabia, which seemed to work. China again fell (to Egypt) but India maintained its territory. So with just a little more focus on military, and being a friend to all, the game progressed much more smoothly, and I got my victory. Wasn't fast by any means, but it was a fun game and like I said at the start, I learnt a lot.

I also had to play a couple of more turns after victory just so I could Nuke Washington. I'm spiteful like that. :satan:

Jun 21, 2011, 02:16 AM
I tried this, did 5 Cities which been well placed I think - 1 ne, 1 on marble, 1 east (had access to like 4 Lux after baorder expand) and 1 west
Did - Monument-scout-lib-NC-3 Settler + free while buying few units and a worker with money (stole 2 workers)
got Wats with legaalism at about turn 85 whats decently fast I guess.

So all in all really good game with fast start and all - then I did conquer some CHinease cities (not cap) with lot good tiles and built lots of trade posts - had a time with 150g/t and like 250 bakkers at turn 150.

Had even RAs going - but finishing this in turn 220 - seems just impossible on 1. playthrough - as everythign d have to be perfekt - and well - some civs been brokken here and so .... for coal I could had to declare another war making all other civs unfriendly .... think I d have finsihed sub 250 - whats allready really good imo