View Full Version : EDIT: A Specialist-Cottage Super Economy Hybrid


MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 11:11 AM
"As long as you're not working lots of un-improved tiles, your economy is fine."

This works very, very well, up to Emperor.

What is the Caste System Economy Without Caste System?

1. You're running slavery for whipping.
2. You're whipping out a lot of buildings (libraries, forges, and marketplaces).
3. You have the Pyramids.
4. Your worker count is very, very low (because you're not working a lot of tiles).
5. You have a lot of specialists because of the buildings you whipped.

It's basically a Caste System economy but with slavery. I like slavery better than Caste System, since I like the added production boost and the "panic button." I like to combine this with:

1. A super-science capital.
2. Lots of cottages to take advantage of the libraries and marketplaces you whipped.
3. Wonder-spam.
4. Lots of cities.
5. Beeline to Banking to take advantage of my low science-slider and to run Mercantilism to take advantage of Representation.
6. In turn, Banking is useful for a beeline to Rifling.

Example of such an economy is provided in the attachment below. You'll notice that my worker count is very, very low.

This is very easy to teach to new-comers. All you need is solid worker-mirco, and an understanding of the mechanics of Representation, specialists, and infrastructure. It also encourages newcomers to develop a habit of using slavery. If you're SPI this works even better, since you can run serfdom most of the time, with occasional switches back to slavery.

Ghpstage
Jun 07, 2011, 12:06 PM
It's basically a Caste System economy but with slavery No its nothing like Caste system economies, this is a 'strong leader with some suspiciously (:lol:) strong land on marathon' economy......
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss352/ghpstage/grasshillgold.jpg?t=1307469937

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 07, 2011, 12:09 PM
It reads a lot like "Specialist Economy".

Kid R
Jun 07, 2011, 12:10 PM
5. You have a lot of specialists because of the buildings you whipped.

...

2. Lots of cottages to take advantage of the libraries and marketplaces you whipped.

Can the two be done at the same time? To me specialists means not cottages. Cottages don't deliver enough food either to run specialists or to regrow efficiently after whipping. Farm, baby, farm.

Isn't what you call the "caste system economy" just the old-skool "specialist economy" (SE)? In which case yes you can do it with library/market/temple, etc. specialists, but if you do it suffers from at least one severe problem at higher levels. Namely the lack of control over what great people you get. Actual caste system is far superior in that respect.

Pyramids is clearly a boon to the SE but it has been shown numerous times to be realistic without.

No real problems with any of the rest :D

In particular the fact that SPI rocks. Toggling between caste system and slavery is my most favouritest thing about it. Serfdom ... facepalm.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 12:11 PM
It was a random leader, and the land I got was kick-ass awesome.

It would have worked better with Capac. Compensated with awesome land, though. And no, I do not like Giggles.

Ok, so I have no idea what a Caste System economy is actually. You got me there.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 12:12 PM
Can the two be done at the same time? To me specialists means not cottages. Cottages don't deliver enough food either to run specialists or to regrow efficiently after whipping. Farm, baby, farm.

Isn't what you call the "caste system economy" just the old-skool "specialist economy" (SE)? In which case yes you can do it with library/market/temple, etc. specialists, but if you do it suffers from at least one severe problem at higher levels. Namely the lack of control over what great people you get. Actual caste system is far superior in that respect.

Pyramids is clearly a boon to the SE but it has been shown numerous times to be realistic without.

No real problems with any of the rest :D

In particular the fact that SPI rocks. Toggling between caste system and slavery is my most favouritest thing about it. Serfdom ... facepalm.

Apparently so. The two can be done at the same time with slavery to compensate for the low-production of your cities. You start massing production when the cottages morph into towns. Until then, you run slavery.

Windsor
Jun 07, 2011, 12:12 PM
1-3 specialists per city is not what I would call "a lot".

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 12:15 PM
It reads a lot like "Specialist Economy".

Fair enough. It's a specialist economy with cottages and lots of whipping.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 12:17 PM
1-3 specialists per city is not what I would call "a lot".

Yes. But with 30+ cities, you're talking about "a lot."

The problem with specialists is they're linear. They always provide the same benefits for the entire game. Hence the cottages are there for exponential growth for Renaissance and Industrial explosions.

Um the Muse
Jun 07, 2011, 01:00 PM
Why specialists instead of building wealth? Mines are linear, too; they save you from having to whip in gold multipliers; you gain flexibility without resorting to whipping except in emergencies (I believe that it's been proven that whipping miners does not increase production); and you become less wonder dependent.

Btw, merchants and mines are really quasi-linear; per person, they are but they don't have infinite room for expansion per city (you're limited by food, slots/hills, food, happies, food, and health. And finally, food). Also, they could theoretically help you get more cities out, but maintenance costs aren't linear. I've found to my chagrin that ICS via a merchant/ city doesn't work :(

Cusanus
Jun 07, 2011, 02:22 PM
[Greyed out part is not that important.]
This works very, very well, up to Emperor.


Everything works well up to Emperor.

Well, yes: "...as long as you're doing a few things right."
And you named one of the most important things: don't work unimproved tiles!


This is very easy to teach to new-comers.

If you mean this to be purely educative (and not actually competitive with e.g. pure specialist economy), you might have a point.
At least, I'll not argue here, because honestly: who knows how to best teach new-comers?

Although I doubt that someone with "solid worker-mirco, and an understanding of the mechanics of Representation, specialists, and infrastructure" can still be called a new-comer.
I'd rather try teaching that at-least-solid-monarch player strategies that seem stronger than this one.

I'll try to explain why I (and, obviously, others) think it's a rather bad strategy:

Cottages are really bad while they still are cottages - you mostly work them so that the grow to be (ultimatively) towns.
Any citizen working a cottage could be working a farm instead, but he's not. So for every cottage worked, you're city basically pays 1 food per turn.

When using specialists, you need your cities to grow rather big so that they can use *many* specialists.
[Btw: specialists usually aren't that great unless you're also using their GPP's, i.e. spawning Great People. That means that having five cities with 2 specialists each is a lot worse than having one city with 10 specialists; even if you don't have the NE there (yet).]
Growing your cities needs all the food you can get.

This is even more important when whipping is an important part of your strategy: you whip your cities down, you need them to grow back asap!
That's the reason why specialists and the whip don't mix too well, even all by themselves.

You take that mix and also throw in cottages - those things make both specialists *and* whipping less efficient. Doesn't sound like a good idea.



On a side note:

If you're SPI this works even better, since you can run serfdom most of the time, with occasional switches back to slavery.

I thought one of the adventages was not having to improve many tiles - that would make serfdom even less interesting than in normal games.

Mylene
Jun 07, 2011, 04:12 PM
^^ You took a lot of time there to explain what could be said with 1 word: nonsense :D

Kid R
Jun 07, 2011, 04:16 PM
BTW got to say, huge marathon is THE superior :goodjob:

Htadus
Jun 07, 2011, 04:20 PM
Ok, so I have no idea what a Caste System economy is actually. You got me there.

MarigoldRan, you should take a little time to at least brows through the War Academy and learn what has already been dicovered and is known, such a CE, SE and FE. Then once you know what is already known come up with something new and better. So far you have been reinventing the wheel and it has not been round or better yet. But don't be discouraged.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 05:00 PM
[Greyed out part is not that important.]

Everything works well up to Emperor.

Well, yes: "...as long as you're doing a few things right."
And you named one of the most important things: don't work unimproved tiles!




If you mean this to be purely educative (and not actually competitive with e.g. pure specialist economy), you might have a point.
At least, I'll not argue here, because honestly: who knows how to best teach new-comers?

Although I doubt that someone with "solid worker-mirco, and an understanding of the mechanics of Representation, specialists, and infrastructure" can still be called a new-comer.
I'd rather try teaching that at-least-solid-monarch player strategies that seem stronger than this one.

I'll try to explain why I (and, obviously, others) think it's a rather bad strategy:

Cottages are really bad while they still are cottages - you mostly work them so that the grow to be (ultimatively) towns.
Any citizen working a cottage could be working a farm instead, but he's not. So for every cottage worked, you're city basically pays 1 food per turn.

When using specialists, you need your cities to grow rather big so that they can use *many* specialists.
[Btw: specialists usually aren't that great unless you're also using their GPP's, i.e. spawning Great People. That means that having five cities with 2 specialists each is a lot worse than having one city with 10 specialists; even if you don't have the NE there (yet).]
Growing your cities needs all the food you can get.

This is even more important when whipping is an important part of your strategy: you whip your cities down, you need them to grow back asap!
That's the reason why specialists and the whip don't mix too well, even all by themselves.

You take that mix and also throw in cottages - those things make both specialists *and* whipping less efficient. Doesn't sound like a good idea.



On a side note:



I thought one of the adventages was not having to improve many tiles - that would make serfdom even less interesting than in normal games.

Ok. I'll call you out on this one. Play the same map according to how you would do it and compare the results. This is a good test case because you pretty much don't have to worry about military after choking Monty and building the GW since it's easy to keep the southerners occupied with themselves.

The thing is that I don't want my cities to grow back too fast. Otherwise unhappiness becomes a problem. I guess that's why you people build workers. It's a cumulative effect. If you have a lot of farms, you have a lot of workers (which are built during whip recovery times). If you don't have a lot of farms, as is the case here, (and instead have cottages and buildings), you have a lot less workers (since building workers is inefficient because you need your cities to grow back).

I'm going to finish out this game, in part because the 700 AD snapshot is of an economy that is just beginning to explode.

EDIT: This applies to anyone who thinks they can do better.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 05:17 PM
Why specialists instead of building wealth? Mines are linear, too; they save you from having to whip in gold multipliers; you gain flexibility without resorting to whipping except in emergencies (I believe that it's been proven that whipping miners does not increase production); and you become less wonder dependent.

Btw, merchants and mines are really quasi-linear; per person, they are but they don't have infinite room for expansion per city (you're limited by food, slots/hills, food, happies, food, and health. And finally, food). Also, they could theoretically help you get more cities out, but maintenance costs aren't linear. I've found to my chagrin that ICS via a merchant/ city doesn't work :(

If you're building wealth, you're not building infrastructure.

I do build wealth and research sometimes, to get an important tech like currency for example, but I generally try to keep it at a min.

Hammer economies require a different heuristic from what I did here.

In truth, I have some buildaholic tendencies.

Um the Muse
Jun 07, 2011, 05:55 PM
If you're building wealth, you're not building infrastructure...In truth, I have some buildaholic tendencies.

No disrespect intended, but I think that that is the crux of the issue. It sounds like you're building things whether or not it'll help you more than it'll cost you. That's fine; I myself like the shinies of a well-developed city. Just know that it'll be sub-optimal.

I hope you at least specialize the buildings to cater to the city? I know this is something that's holding me back too. "Every city needs a market! It'll make them happier! Oh a forge! Good idea! Never mind it's only going to give me one or two extra hammers per turn, I need it!"

After awhile, though, I realize that I literally can't build all the goodies (yay! That means my commerce cities' tiles are sufficiently specialized, at least!). Maybe it'll help you as well as it has helped me to realize that I can't do everything; that I need to give my cities a purpose--at least my main cities, the smaller cities can somewhat squeak by with slavery, they just won't amount to much on their own.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 06:04 PM
I specialize. The Heroic Epic city has, for example, built nothing except units after the Heroic Epic is built.

Then there are a few other cities where I'm like, "yeah, ok, there's no point in putting a building there."

But generally whenever I look at the map, I think, "well, this city spot looks pretty good for cottages. Since I'm getting cottages, I may as well get a marketplace and a forge."

But otherwise the reason so many buildings are built is because of slavery. I'm pretty much optimizing slavery to get the infrastructure up because what else are these cities going to do? I don't want to war right now since it's not efficient. I could build a settler or a worker, but that keeps my city from growing. I could build commerce, but I'm teching fast enough and honestly some of these cities are producing three shields per turn, which makes building commerce kind of pointless. So without anything better to do, I spam buildings, knowing that they're useful now, and they'll become even more useful later.

This could be a quirk of Marathon/Huge. Units are cheap in Marathon, which means you should build less of them because they'll kill your economy with maintenance. I'm half-joking here, but there is some truth to it.

Noogai
Jun 07, 2011, 07:39 PM
I always run hybrid economy, expect on special periods like golden age or when preparing for war.
Some cities run better with cottages and some with specialists, and some just work on hammers. Of course traits matter too, wether you have phil or fin or even spi.

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 11:01 PM
I always run hybrid economy, expect on special periods like golden age or when preparing for war.
Some cities run better with cottages and some with specialists, and some just work on hammers. Of course traits matter too, wether you have phil or fin or even spi.

Awesome. Very glad to hear it. What exactly is wrong with hybrid?

1215 AD, the entire continent is mine with Curraissers. The remaining 2 civs are my vassals. Have Rifling. Next step: Economics, Corporation, then Astronomy.

My research slider is 30%, but that's perfect because of all the banks, marketplaces, and grocers I had whipped earlier. Also, with Emancipation, it means all my villages are rapidly morphing into towns. I have six GP, sitting around and doing nothing, who'll begin churning out Golden Age after Golden Age once the captured cities recover. The Statue of Liberty is being built, I've got a trillion cities, and I have a massive tech lead. I also have too many workers, that I don't know what to do with. I really don't see how I'm doing anything wrong this game. Granted, that it's Emperor, and it's easy-as-heck, but still. It seems like I'm playing optimally.

Question:

Do you sometimes have moral qualms? Game mechanics-wise I should have invaded my two vassals and take their caps, but I just can't do it. They've been busy fighting the forces of darkness, led by Sh- and Ku-, for the last 5000 years and now that Sh- and Ku- are dead, I just can't bring myself to attack my friends!

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 07, 2011, 11:08 PM
Do you sometimes have moral qualms? Game mechanics-wise I should have invaded my two vassals and take their caps, but I just can't do it. They've been busy fighting the forces of darkness, led by Sh- and Ku-, for the last 5000 years and now that Sh- and Ku- are dead, I just can't bring myself to attack my friends!

Not that sort of qualm - they are just dice, after all.

But I won't throw nukes.

AutomatedTeller
Jun 07, 2011, 11:14 PM
Awesome. Very glad to hear it. What exactly is wrong with hybrid?

1215 AD, the entire continent is mine with Curraissers. The remaining 2 civs are my vassals. Have Rifling. Next step: Economics, Corporation, then Astronomy.

My research slider is 30%, but that's perfect because of all the banks, marketplaces, and grocers I had whipped earlier. Also, with Emancipation, it means all my villages are rapidly morphing into towns. I have six GP, sitting around and doing nothing, who'll begin churning out Golden Age after Golden Age once the captured cities recover. The Statue of Liberty is being built, I've got a trillion cities, and I have a massive tech lead. I also have too many workers, that I don't know what to do with. I really don't see how I'm doing anything wrong this game. Granted, that it's Emperor, and it's easy-as-heck, but still. It seems like I'm playing optimally.

Question:

Do you sometimes have moral qualms? Game mechanics-wise I should have invaded my two vassals and take their caps, but I just can't do it. They've been busy fighting the forces of darkness, led by Sh- and Ku-, for the last 5000 years and now that Sh- and Ku- are dead, I just can't bring myself to attack my friends!


How do you invade vassals? can you even declare war on them?

Um the Muse
Jun 07, 2011, 11:16 PM
Yeah, I admit I get a little queasy about starting an unprovoked war, lol. Part of the reason for my builder tendencies. That, and I honestly enjoy developing my economy more.

Um the Muse
Jun 07, 2011, 11:18 PM
@AutomatedTeller: Make them an offer they can't not refuse :lol:

MarigoldRan
Jun 07, 2011, 11:19 PM
How do you invade vassals? can you even declare war on them?

I just vassaled them. They were begging the entire game to be my vassal, and I guess I finally accepted since I felt bad for the AI.

Cusanus
Jun 08, 2011, 03:11 AM
Ok. I'll call you out on this one. Play the same map according to how you would do it and compare the results.

Can't play the map, don't have a starting (or early) save.

MarigoldRan
Jun 08, 2011, 11:41 AM
Can't play the map, don't have a starting (or early) save.

Oops. Ok.

It's on the thread: Marathon/Huge Guide (?).

It's the second Autosave_4000BC next to the Autosave_720BC.

I can't post the same save on two different places.

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 08, 2011, 12:14 PM
I can't post the same save on two different places.

You can probably link to it? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=292037&d=1307435245)

MarigoldRan
Jun 08, 2011, 07:00 PM
Thank you! Interesting. How did you do that?

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 08, 2011, 07:47 PM
Thank you! Interesting. How did you do that?

Quote me, then look at the markup copied into your post.

MarigoldRan
Jun 08, 2011, 10:34 PM
Going to post another thread. The topic:

Dealing with barbs without the GW. Immortal. Fractal.

You're Hammurabi of Summeria. See? Aren't I nice?

Cusanus
Jun 09, 2011, 02:20 AM
Aren't I nice?

No, you're still spamming.

Although I think you're right about the vulture thing: you can't use them to conquer the world on huge maps, because you can't pay the (city+unit) upkeep that early in the game. And if you just burn down every city you conquer, your best hope is that that barbarians will resettle all the available land before the AI does it.
- - -

I guess I won't have time to look at this save this week. :sad:

Nick Carpathia
Jun 09, 2011, 02:37 AM
Did you just string together 5 buzzwords together without any thought to what they mean like some kind of deranged CEO?

Farm Boy
Jun 09, 2011, 09:00 AM
To reiterate previous posters, hybridization of the economy is fine, unless you are Obsolete. Running lots of low size, but efficiently whipped cities good. Mixing heavy whipping with low workers and cottages is giving me hives. Whipped cottages are cottages that are not working and are not growing which pretty much ensures that they are not good. Late cottages, even if not whipped, are questionable. Without an abundance of time to grow alternate tile improvements start looking good quickly.

MarigoldRan
Jun 09, 2011, 12:32 PM
To reiterate previous posters, hybridization of the economy is fine, unless you are Obsolete. Running lots of low size, but efficiently whipped cities good. Mixing heavy whipping with low workers and cottages is giving me hives. Whipped cottages are cottages that are not working and are not growing which pretty much ensures that they are not good. Late cottages, even if not whipped, are questionable. Without an abundance of time to grow alternate tile improvements start looking good quickly.

You're whipping the specialists, not the cottages. On average, 6-7 cottages per cottage city. The other 2-3 pop points are specialists that exist in order to be whipped. When they're not whipped, they produce science.

Farm Boy
Jun 09, 2011, 12:46 PM
You confused me there. I generally would not consider cities at size 8-10 either particularly small or heavily-whipped. I would also not consider 6-7 tile improvements as "low demand" per city.

MarigoldRan
Jun 09, 2011, 10:19 PM
You confused me there. I generally would not consider cities at size 8-10 either particularly small or heavily-whipped. I would also not consider 6-7 tile improvements as "low demand" per city.

I'm 2-pop whipping the buildings, with an occasional 3-pop. I let the city build the building up to a certain point (and let its pop re-grow and unhappiness to dampen down) before another whip.

I'm not heavily whipping. But I am whipping consistently to keep # tiles worked low. However, whenever I see a city with 2 or more tiles un-improved, I whip. Hence, my newer cities get whipped ASAP for granary and library. Once the library goes up, a city with 4 improved tiles can grow to pop 6 w/o any unimproved tiles worked. Furthermore, the two science specialists slow down the city's growth, meaning that I don't need workers.

As a result, with the Pyramids, each city is producing at least 15 science. 12 from specialists and +3 from library. Most of my non-specialist commerce is spent on city maintenance. My science rate is very, very fast once I have enough cities. Furthermore, the cottage cities are consistently working the cottages, meaning that once Renaissance hits, they become super-cities.

Since I have very few workers, my unit maintenance is very low. If I can keep my neighbors busy with each other, it also means a small standing army and a very fast tech rate.

Nick Carpathia
Jun 09, 2011, 10:27 PM
Which is a bad idea. You want to keep your cities as close to your happy cap as possible. Sure, whips are less efficient, but that does not matter as you can generate alot more hammers and commerce by working alot of improved tiles.

Remember, the appeal of whipping is as a way of generating alot of hammers while your cities are small due to lack of technology and happiness resources. As you go through the game, as your happy cap rises and you unlock more improvements and infrastructure, artificially limiting your city sizes hurts you more than whipping "efficiently" helps you.

MarigoldRan
Jun 09, 2011, 10:28 PM
Which is a bad idea. You want to keep your cities as close to your happy cap as possible. Sure, whips are less efficient, but that does not matter as you can generate alot more hammers and commerce by working alot of improved tiles.

Remember, the appeal of whipping is as a way of generating alot of hammers while your cities are small due to lack of technology and happiness resources. As you go through the game, as your happy cap rises and you unlock more improvements and infrastructure, artificially limiting your city sizes hurts you more than whipping "efficiently" helps you.

It could be a quirk of Marathon/Huge, but it works really, really well.

If you think you can do better, go and play that save. Voice of Unreason linked to it above. Yes, it's Emperor, and the map is particularly nice, but it would be a good comparison to play up to around 1000 AD and compare it to my game.

Kid R
Jun 10, 2011, 12:47 AM
Actually I think keeping cities quite small (6 ish) in the REX phase of the game often works quite well. If all cities have enough tiles to get a library and support a scientist or two they are pretty much making a full contribution to science and can do whatever else they like with the rest of their population. Especially with the pyramids which seems to be taken as a given here.

Perhaps on Huge the REX phase takes so long (more land) so this phase goes on longer, I don't know. Two things I would worry about, first is the temptation to whip unnecessary stuff just to get rid of the population. Second, war time could come and we might not have enough population to make a fast army (ideally 10+ pop in all cities).

LyTning94
Jun 12, 2011, 07:11 PM
This is my take on things (granted I'm only playing on prince): Cottages are overrated. Sure, they're great for boosting your economy/research, but they take forever to grow into towns. I agree that you need at least one city with some cottages in the early game to get you some gold, but cottages in your production cities? Seriously? There's no room for cottages in a true production city. Early in the game you should be expanding as quickly as possible so you can whip your population to get infrastructure, and later on you should be building workshops/watermills/windmills once they mature to get you a huge production factory. When these three improvements are matured, you should get rid of your cottages in your one or two cities where you built them and instead build these three improvements, getting some commerce and a lot of production. Then, in one of your production factories, you can build wealth.

As far as specialists are concerned, I don't think there's any room for them in a production city either, so I never use them. In your GP farm, and a research city you can work them, but otherwise :nope:.

Just my inexperienced opinion. :D

Zx Zero Zx
Jun 12, 2011, 07:24 PM
So you are talking about just a normal economy? No economy should be so super specialized that you only get research 2 ways. Land is power, the more land you have the stronger your economy is going to be. Simple enough, doesn't matter if you are working cottages or Scientist.

Turin Turumarth
Jun 12, 2011, 07:36 PM
Last I can remember, grassland gold never happens in a normal map script (not donut, planet generator, smartmap, or related maps), so unless you're playing with events, I'm suspicious.

LyTning94
Jun 12, 2011, 07:44 PM
So you are talking about just a normal economy? No economy should be so super specialized that you only get research 2 ways. Land is power, the more land you have the stronger your economy is going to be. Simple enough, doesn't matter if you are working cottages or Scientist.

I'm not saying get no research out of your other cities. You're bound to have gold/silver/gems somewhere in a production city, and a lot of tiles get you some :commerce:. Windmills and watermills both get you +2:commerce: when fully matured, and you can even build research in a production factory if you have nothing else pressing to build. Then build libraries, observatories, and universities in every city; use free religion; and build plenty of monasteries. With your amazing economy (because you're building wealth in a production factory) you'll be researching at 100% and getting plenty of research. Plus if you have a city like mine will be soon in my current game, you can get over 360:science: from one city! :D

MarigoldRan
Jun 12, 2011, 08:14 PM
Last I can remember, grassland gold never happens in a normal map script (not donut, planet generator, smartmap, or related maps), so unless you're playing with events, I'm suspicious.

I am playing with events.

Where's the grasslands gold?

MarigoldRan
Jun 12, 2011, 08:16 PM
This is my take on things (granted I'm only playing on prince): Cottages are overrated. Sure, they're great for boosting your economy/research, but they take forever to grow into towns. I agree that you need at least one city with some cottages in the early game to get you some gold, but cottages in your production cities? Seriously? There's no room for cottages in a true production city. Early in the game you should be expanding as quickly as possible so you can whip your population to get infrastructure, and later on you should be building workshops/watermills/windmills once they mature to get you a huge production factory. When these three improvements are matured, you should get rid of your cottages in your one or two cities where you built them and instead build these three improvements, getting some commerce and a lot of production. Then, in one of your production factories, you can build wealth.

As far as specialists are concerned, I don't think there's any room for them in a production city either, so I never use them. In your GP farm, and a research city you can work them, but otherwise :nope:.

Just my inexperienced opinion. :D

Standard settings, probably.

On Marathon/Huge, you need commerce more than production because research times are 3x whereas unit costs are only 2x.

Honestly, I don't care too much about city specialization. I mean, I have a Bueracracy Capitol, a Heroic Epic city, and occasionally a GP farm, but otherwise all my cities start to look the same after a while. I'm not an "efficiency player." I'm a "size" player. Whenever I feel cramped, I go to war with someone and grow bigger.

Zx Zero Zx
Jun 12, 2011, 08:36 PM
Standard settings, probably.

On Marathon/Huge, you need commerce more than production because research times are 3x whereas unit costs are only 2x.

Honestly, I don't care too much about city specialization. I mean, I have a Bueracracy Capitol, a Heroic Epic city, and occasionally a GP farm, but otherwise all my cities start to look the same after a while. I'm not an "efficiency player." I'm a "size" player. Whenever I feel cramped, I go to war with someone and grow bigger.

You only need a few super specialized cities, Oxford HE NE and IW. The rest I tend to make into hybrid cites. They are strong cities, you can get your buildings out in less than 30 turns and still pump out a bunch of commerce. But the downfall is that you need to aggressively settle, and war in the BCs to get up to around 12 cities on a standard size map for it to work. Otherwise you're just to small and need a specialized empire.

LyTning94
Jun 13, 2011, 12:50 PM
Standard settings, probably.

Yeah, I've never played on a bigger than standard map because my PC can't handle it and I've never played on a longer than normal setting because I don't see the point of playing on marathon with a standard map.

Turin Turumarth
Jun 13, 2011, 01:06 PM
I noticed it near Kish, in that screenshot (I didn't upload the game). That happens on normal games (5% chance of discovering metals), not only events, where a a grassland mine happens to gain a metal.

EDIT: IN ANOTHER TOPIC, SOMEONE HAS MY NAME, IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE!!! ARRGH

LyTning94
Jun 13, 2011, 07:04 PM
EDIT: IN ANOTHER TOPIC, SOMEONE HAS MY NAME, IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE!!! ARRGH

Speaking of the name, I'm a big Tolkien fan, so :goodjob:. Is their name in another real language, or another Middle Earth language?

Turin Turumarth
Jun 13, 2011, 08:04 PM
My name is in Sindarin, theirs is in Quenya, Aka. their name is Turin Turambar, both mean Turin, Master of Fate, or Master of Doom.