"In Civ3, Communism is the worst of all governments". Maybe. But could you win an Emperor game using Communist government only in Industrial/Modern Age, even if you would not go for one of the military victory conditions but Spaceship Victory? Anyone interested to find out?

Civilization: China
Difficulty: Emperor
Map Size: Standard
Land Mass: Continents, 70% Water, all land parameters standard
Barbarians: Roaming
Opponents: Seven
No AI Respawning, Not Culturally Linked Starting Locations
Victory Conditions: All Enabled
Version: PTW 1.14f - patched to 1.21f after 1500 AD

Variant Rules:
1.) We may never become a Republic or Democracy.
2.) We have to acquire the tech 'Communism' as soon as possible. Or, in detail:
* The first Industrial Age tech we acquire must be 'Nationalism'.
* As soon as we have discovered 'Nationalism' and at least one other civ knows 'Communism', the next tech we aquire must be 'Communism' (however, we may finish a research project started earlier).
3.) When we have aquired the tech 'Communism', we must immediately revolt to Communist government. Afterwards, we may never change government again.
4.) We will only go for a Spaceship Victory.

Exploits as defined by RBCiv are not allowed. Exception: We are always allowed to purchase workers.

24 hours for confirmation, additional 48 hours for posting. 10 turns per round.

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin
Borealis
Architect
(open)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-4000bc.jpg

Yep, I'll join. Also I suggest that the first player plays 20 turns to get the game moving.

@Physicist

I'm glad to hear you've decided to do Epic 22. Best of luck but it looks pretty hard!!!

Also why are we abandoning the worker buying rule??? I don't mind too much but as Sullla showed in the first of the Potluck games at RBCiv, buying workers really cripples the AI. I don't mind if you think that the raised price in PTW takes care of that issue.

May I point out a mistake in your so far flawless English. Roster not Rooster. ;)

This sounds a lot like Epic 15 Soyuz, exept maybe not quite so hard.

Anyway I would like to say thanx to Physicistfor this variant!

JMansell

JMansell: Great that you confirmed! After our joint effort in "The2" it is a pleasure to try this Emperor challenge together with you.
Following the epic rules, I will not tell about Epic22 and my humble performance in playing it, but if you find the time, try it yourself. It is indeed a very interesting variant.

Thanks for the hints and questions. I will try to explain my reasons:

* Concerning "10 turns": Although I didn't mention it explicitly, it has been my intention to play 20 turns. :)

* Concerning "buying workers": Maybe I am wrong but I don't think that anyone joining a SG that follows the Epic rules really checks the Epic page and exactly reads through the whole tactics page. Especially the paragraph about buying workers is, well, quite long, and one of the most complicated rules (with different rules for different difficulty levels). As I think that the higher price for workers in PTW at least partially solves the "buying workers" problem and as I wanted to keep the rules as simple as possible, I decided to skip the rule completely.
The Epic's tactics page says "Emperor games should not buy any workers until the civ has had time to produce a third (they start with two), which will be at least 2500BC." If the team agrees not to buy any workers before 2500BC, this will be the perfect solution.
BTW, if anyone wants to (re-)read the Epic's tactic page, it is here:
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

* I only vaguely remembered the "Soyuz"-Epic as the one with the "one worker per city rule", so after reading your post I checked the Epics homepage and found out: Sirian's "government rules" indeed look quite similar to mine :( . Hm, well, I did not know/remember that, although I was sure that someone else would have tried that before. Maybe we will nevertheless be able find the one or other player who is interested in the game? :)

* Concerning my not so flawless English: Ehm, well, what can I say .... I used the wrong spelling intentionally to test your attention, JMansell ... ;)
(For other readers: Maybe I should mention that English is not my native language, so you cann exspekt manny tesstz off yur attenshion in my poasts. :D )
Thanks for the hint :) . I will correct the initial post.

Cock-a-doodle-doo! ;)

- Physicist

Physicist,

I don't see why you don't get started on your 20 turns while we wait for others to join. This will get the game started and hopefully, because it will move the thread to the top of the SG list when sorted by last post time, it will encourage others to join.

JMansell

This is a variant I have wanted to play on Deity so I'm up for the easy emperor win.. :)

Architect: Welcome! I had hoped to find the one or other player for that game, but drawing the interest of a RBE player was far beyond my expectations.
I have followed (as a lurker) some of the SGs you were playing, especially the great "The Sea is a harsh Mistress". Great performance! I am glad to have you on board.
As a side note: when I finally decided to register to this board (after lurking for more than one year), all the names I initially wanted to use as my user name were already in use by other people. Guess who "inspired" me to the name I finally chose. :)

JMansell: I wanted to wait for a third player. Now, with Architect having joined the team, I completely agree with your proposal and will play my turns. If RL allows for a late night gaming session (not completely sure yet), you can expect to read my report during tomorrow's breakfast.

Concerning the discussion about RBE's "Seed Corn" rule (possible restrictions on buying workers early in the game): As there were no further comments on that topic, I would suggest to allow all worker buys as stated in my first post.
Architect, if you disagree, please post a "veto"!

- Physicist

PS: This minute, Borealis has declared interest via PM, so one spot is reserved, but has to be confirmed.

EDIT: Physicist is UP, JMansell On Deck
One open spot left !

I'm still holding out hope for "Super Model" or "Coors Light Twin" to join this board soon in honor of my nic. :D Maybe winning with a communist government will do the trick...

As for the worker rules, I'll play however we want.

Couple of suggestions for this game:

1. If possible we may want to found second ring cities first to gain as much space as possible early on. A dense build will do us well too.

2. Early monarchy will be nice. We may want to target Pyramids (could be tough) Sistene and/or J.S Bach as they will help with happiness/growth problems from pop-rushing.

3. The Great Wall and Manhattan Project are instant GA triggers for us. Building the Pyramids and Sun Tzu/Leo would also trigger a GA. It might be wise to try and save our GA until the modern era if possible. If we do that then we'll want to avoid anything militaristic as Hoover is industrious and we know we'll get that. :)

Irrigate that wheat!

Who says communism is the worst? I frickin love it!

Originally posted by Architect
Couple of suggestions for this game:

1. If possible we may want to found second ring cities first to gain as much space as possible early on. A dense build will do us well too.

2. Early monarchy will be nice. We may want to target Pyramids (could be tough) Sistene and/or J.S Bach as they will help with happiness/growth problems from pop-rushing.

3. The Great Wall and Manhattan Project are instant GA triggers for us. Building the Pyramids and Sun Tzu/Leo would also trigger a GA. It might be wise to try and save our GA until the modern era if possible. If we do that then we'll want to avoid anything militaristic as Hoover is industrious and we know we'll get that. :)

Irrigate that wheat!

Architect: I am glad that you started the discussion about startegy. When you read my report, you will see that I tried to trigger that discussion, too. (I wrote the report before reading your post.)

On the other hand: Well, concerning the wheat... I made some, let's say, interesting decisions early on. Please, if you read my report and consider them :smoke: , feel free to tell me. If my suggestions, especially those to JMansell ("mine the wheat"), should be wrong in your opinion, please correct me. :)

To your other suggestions:

1. Concerning dense build: In communism lots of cities means lot of corruption. I would have suggested to reduce overlap as a long term strategy. Do you suggest to abandon cities later on?

2. I completley agree. Pyramids will be crucial for communism, although I have to admit that I have never tried to build the Pyramids in an Emperor game (TGL is no problem, but Pyramids seems to be hard to get).

3. I agree that a modern age GA would be nice. I would try to avoid the militaristic wonders and get (maybe capture?) the Pyramids. On the other hand, I don't think a middle age GA would cripple us, and we might come into a situation where we have to use the riders.

- Physicist

EDIT: typos

First, I would like to thank all of you for the interest in the game. I hope that we will enjoy it!

Summary of my report

* Beijing founded
* two civs (Iroquois & Scandinavia) met
* some trading (we aquired Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial and researched Pottery)

Now for a more detailed report:

Where to place the capitol?

In the following paragraphs I have collected my thoughts about the starting locations and have tried to explain my intentions why I moved worker and settler. It is not necessary to read that, but if you think my moves were :smoke: , it might be an interesting.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-4000bc-start1.jpg

On the screenshot you can see the starting location and what I had tried to guess from the surrounding terrain under fog. The quality of the screenshot is worse than the ingame picture, so you will have to believe me :).
There seem to be mountains and grass to the south, plains to the NW and mainly desert to the NE. Very interesting is the tile under the fog 1N & 1NE. I am ot able to not distinguish whether it desert or plain, but there seems to be some kind of resource on it. Maybe ivory again?

What can we say about our starting location? Not too bad! There is a wheat grass nearby and a floodplain seems to be reachable. Looks like a worker/settler factory! Also two ivory tiles are within the city radius. There is no bonus grass visible, so production might be quite low in despotism. When we start working the mountains under a more advanced government, the production will rise considerably, provided we have enough irrigated grass in reach for food production. Early high food (settler factory), later production boost (wonder/unit building). Not the worst basis for a capitol!

Should we move our settler? The mountain tiles and the wheat grass are ruled out for obvious reasons. The grass W is also a suboptimal choice as we would loose access to the floodplain. The three remaining possibilities are
(1) plains NW (2) ivory plains N (3) ivory plains NE.
(1) & (2) would mean loosing the "known" grass/grass forest file to the SE. I don't really like (2) & (3) as we loose access to the very powerful wheat tile in the first 10 turns (well, founding on a luxury means immediate access to it, but we are industrious. Roads can be build fast). Additionally, we would move into the direction of what I assume to be desert. (1) seems to be possible location from that point of view. Hm.

From what we know/guess now, the starting location seems to be the best choice.

Where to move our worker? I would like to work the wheat tile asap. However, we will not gain much terrain info from moving the worker there. I consider moving the worker in one of the nortern directions (NW, N, NE). With such a move we could gather more information about the possible alternate capitol locations mentioned above. However, moving 1NW seems to be suboptimal as we would loose worker turns (in any case, we do not want to work the standard plains NW first).
Moving 1 N seems to be a viable option, however. With the three surplus food from the (unworked) wheat tile, our capitol will grow in four turns to size two and will then have to use one unworked tile in any case. Thus, the damage done by irrigation the ivory plain first is small. Plus, we will have access to the ivory very soon. We would only loose worker turns if we decided to settle N.

Thus, I decide to move our starting worker 1N.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-4000bc-start2.jpg

We learn that there is indeed a lot of plains to the NW. Mountains, a hill and a flood plain to the NE. I conclude that 1 NE is a promising city location, gaining access to flood plain & hill.

We have two quite equivalent locations to choose from, the starting location and the tile 1NE. By moving to the latter, we would gain access to
* the plain forest on the starting location,
* 1 floodplain (= bonus) and
* 1 hill (= better than mountain),
* and we would found on the ivory (the last one is not crucial here).

However, we would loose access to
* the grass forest tile,
* 1 mountain and
* the unknown tile (1W & 1SW),
* and we will not be able to work the wheat before our first border expansion. However, the difference between a naked flood plain (2 food per turn) and a naked wheat grass (3 food per turn) is one food per turn, meaning growth after 5 instead of 4 turns. Hm again.

After long consideration (you would probably declare me mad if you knew how long ;) ), I decide to move the settler 1 NE and found Beijing there.


Report on the years 4000 BC to 3000 BC:

4000 BC (0) - worker moved N, settler moved NE

3950 BC (1) - Beijing is founded (hey, there's an additional hill within reach), worker starts irrigating and later building road on the ivory plains. We begin training a warrior.
We start researching Pottery at 100% sci. We could make Beijing a strong settler/worker factory even without a granary, but, nevertheless, we might want to build a granary here, e.g. as we might decide to mine some of the plains in order to increase shield output, thus loosing some fpt. 5 surplus food per turn combined with a granary is very powerful...

3700 BC (6) - our worker starts improving the flood plain
(I) our first warrior completes, a second warrior is ordered

3650 BC (7) - Astronomical observations of the Cinese mages show that we are located on something called northern hemisphere, near something else called the equator. Although being confused by these stange words, our warrior decides to explore south.

3500 BC (10) - Quite much happened interturn: our borders expand (zzz), we complete Pottery, and our scout meets FOUR Iroquois warriors :eek: , only some tiles from our border!

3450 BC (11) - Haiwatha of the Iroquis greets us cautiously. He knows the secrets of Ceremonial Burial and Bronze Working, but lacks Warrior code. Both of us have 10g.
He would be willing to trade us Bronze Working for WC & 6 gpt (if we would go back to 10% sci, we would make +7 gpt). I don't like this offer as it would leave us close to bankruptcy for the next 20 turns (of course this was not his initial offer, I tried to get the best deal possible. Initially, he wanted to have our 10g in addition).
Another possibility would be to buy Ceremonial Burial for WC, 2 gpt & 1g, allowing us to continue our research on Bronze Working with the loss of one turn only (due in 14 turns). Smoking Haiwatha's excellent weed in the ceremonial peace pipe, I decide to take that deal. Haiwa goes to polite.
Now I decide to gamble a little bit: I start researching Alphabet (due in 25 turns). OK, we could research Bronze (due in 14 turns), riding on Haiwa's coattails, but Alphabet might allow some trading. Maybe, maybe not.

3400 BC (12) - our second warrior starts exploring north.
Haiwa knows Mysticism, and fell back to cautious!

3400 BC (12) - a Scandinavian scout appears near our borders from E-SE
I meet annoyed King Ragnar and am glad to find out that he lacks Masonry. He is willing to give 2g & Bronze Working. Ragnar already has two cities.

3150 BC (17) - our third warrior completes. He will stay at Beijing for MP/protection. Our first 'scout' has reached the borders of Salamanca, always shadowed by a mini-SoD of three Iroquis warriors.
Haiwa knows the Wheel.

3000 BC (20) - our northern scout finds cultural borders of an unknown civilization. Our southern scout finds a coast.

Comments to the next player(s):

To JMansell:
*the irrigation of the second flood plain was finished in the last turn, but tile is not worked by the people of Beijing.
*EDIT: I would suggest to mine the bonus wheat instead of irrigating. We could still make 5 surplus food per turn by working the two flood plains additionally to the wheat. And we need shields more urgently than food! See below & next posts.
*we should not allow Beijing to fall back below size 3 or even size 4 in order to keep a certain level of shields per turn. Working the forest might be an option, too.
*Alphabet due in 10 turns, probably less when Beijing grows.
*unknown foreign borders two tiles north of northern scout
* EDIT: please read the discussion in the next to post

* General remark: One of the most crucial points in this variant will be intelligent city placing. (Architect, you are a far more experienced player than I am, so please correct me if I should be wrong. Well, actually anyone is free to correct me. :) ) Under communism, the amount of corruption will be determined by the number of our cities ONLY. Thus, we should try to build few large cities instead of many small ones. As a consequence, we should try to avoid overlap between cities if somehow possible. If we decide to go for a dense build, we might have to abandon cities later on. Furthermore, we should try to avoid building cities in terribly bad terrain (with few cities, each single city counts).
As soon as we have a better idea of our surrounding territory, we might consider preparing a dotmap and discussing possible locations.

* Please upload the files in the usual format 'Phys1-jjjjBC.zip', jjjj meaning the game year and BC standing for BC or AD.

Long report, have to get some sleep now. Will post a screenshot from 3000 BC tomorrow.

Good luck to you, JMansell!

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-3000BC.zip

JMansell: UP
Architect: on deck

The honest truth is I've never done more than briefly switch to communism as I have a strong distaste for the whip and its happiness effects. My understanding of how corruption works in a "communal" form of government is it is equalized across all cities but I don't know how much the optimal city number plays into overall corruption.

I was thinking a tight dense sprawling civ with most cities maxing at 13 would be most effective but your idea of highly spaced no overlap cities might be the correct way to play it. I don't have time to follow the Epics too much and so if there was a communist epic and this was the general conscensus I would go with that. I just can't help but feel there is an optimal way to get the most out of communism with a tightly packed empire, tons of workers (to replace the whipped ones), and diligent timing of the whipping.In any case, we can always add additional cities to a highly spaced build.

Irrigation of the wheat allows us at size 4 to work both ivory for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 12 commerce. With it mined we have to work the flood plain too for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 11 commerce. Also when we are going from 5-6-7 producing settlers, an irrigated wheat will allow us 2 turn MM food production back up to 6 by working both flood plains + IW and then 3 turn completion of a settler for 5 turn settlers. All of this assumes working a mined hill and the forest. By not irrigating the wheat ASAP (I don't think I would have moved where you did but the result was very good) we are a at least a pop point behind where we could be. I think we would be size 4 now and on our way to size 5 with the irrigated wheat. If you still have the original save you could go back and try it. I'm willing to chop down trees with game to get 4 food in depostism. Getting it for "free" on a wheat is a no brainer for me.

We need a granary ASAP in that city too btw. Keep the next warrior home and then build a granary. I don't think we are going to get the pyramids because we don't have enough shield production. Not a big deal.

Another long post...

Originally posted by Architect
The honest truth is I've never done more than briefly switch to communism as I have a strong distaste for the whip and its happiness effects.

Actually, the same is true for me, for exactly the same reasons. That's why I wanted to play this variant.

My understanding of how corruption works in a "communal" form of government is it is equalized across all cities but I don't know how much the optimal city number plays into overall corruption.

I was thinking a tight dense sprawling civ with most cities maxing at 13 would be most effective but your idea of highly spaced no overlap cities might be the correct way to play it. I don't have time to follow the Epics too much and so if there was a communist epic and this was the general conscensus I would go with that. I just can't help but feel there is an optimal way to get the most out of communism with a tightly packed empire, tons of workers (to replace the whipped ones), and diligent timing of the whipping.In any case, we can always add additional cities to a highly spaced build.

"My understanding of how corruption works in a "communal" form of government is it is equalized across all cities". That's exactly why I proposed to build few size 20+ powerhouses instead of many densely built size 13 cities. Let me explain: under normal governments, there are basically two parameters influencing the corruption level of a city: distance from the capitol and "number"/ranking of the city. Let's ignore the former for a minute. Then corruption is determined in the following way: the game creates a ranking of all cities, making the capitol #1, the second closest #2, etc. The amount of corruption of each city is calculated using a certain formula which gives the #1 city zero corruption, and each city with higher a slightly higher corruption, especially when the rank of the city is higher than the "optimal city number". Under these government, we have a strong core of cities with low corruption and a rising level of corruption in the outer cities with higher rank. Adding a city to a larger empire creates a highly corrupt city (1 spt, 1gpt), both does not influence the corruption level in your core. All of you know that.

Now assume the same situation under communism: The game goes through the exactly same procedure to determine corruption, ranking the cities and calculating individual corruption levels for each city. But then, the corruption level is equalized across all cities, as you stated in your post, Architect. If you now add a city to your empire, it will be ranked very high, meaning a high corruption level, so after the equalizing the overall corruption level will be higher. On the other hand, the additional city, being hopelessly corrupt under other governments, will be as productive as all you other cities. In the end, you did not gain in overall spt/gpt by adding the new city, as although you get some shields and and gold from the new city, as those are "eaten up" the higher overall corruption in your other cities. You might even have less civ-wide production/income.

Or, using an extreme cases as an example. Assume an empire consisting of one city only. Independent of government choice, the corruption will exactly be the same (communisms "equalizing" does not change a thing). Now, assume an empire with an infinite number of cities. Under monarchy etc., you will have a productive core and completely corrupt outer cities (anyone who ever aimed at a domination victory will agree with that). Under corruption, with an infinite number of cities, ALL of you cities will be completely corrupt. So, communism works well with smaller empires.

IMHO, that's the reason why communism is so unpopular. People go for Domination, do much warmongering, and think "communism is a war government, let's try it." However, controlling 1/2 of the world with millions of cities, the overall corruption level goes to, say, 50%, and the former powerhouse Kyoto (or whatever), currently building ToE, looses half of its production. Then people of course say "communism sucks". I think it might be quite strong if you prepare for it correctly and if you do not aim at domination, and I want to find out with this game. :)

Thus, I would suggest to build as few cities as possible, probably somewhere around the optimal city number (we can go slightly higher as courts and police stations reduce corruption created by the city number).

Irrigation of the wheat allows us at size 4 to work both ivory for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 12 commerce. With it mined we have to work the flood plain too for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 11 commerce. Also when we are going from 5-6-7 producing settlers, an irrigated wheat will allow us 2 turn MM food production back up to 6 by working both flood plains + IW and then 3 turn completion of a settler for 5 turn settlers. All of this assumes working a mined hill and the forest. By not irrigating the wheat ASAP (I don't think I would have moved where you did but the result was very good) we are a at least a pop point behind where we could be. I think we would be size 4 now and on our way to size 5 with the irrigated wheat. If you still have the original save you could go back and try it. I'm willing to chop down trees with game to get 4 food in depostism. Getting it for "free" on a wheat is a no brainer for me.

We need a granary ASAP in that city too btw. Keep the next warrior home and then build a granary. I don't think we are going to get the pyramids because we don't have enough shield production. Not a big deal.

Architect, with a lousy player like me this might not be the "easy Emperor win" you supposed to get in your first post. ;)

Well, I have probably thought too much about future potential and not enough about early growth. I considered my decision for a long time mainly for this reason. I agree that we are one pop point behind where we could be. Even without playing a shadow I know that we lost 16 food in the first 20 turns by moving the settler. :(
Concerning settler production: I think that in the given situation (now, 3000 BC) mining the wheat is an option as well as irrigating. You simply trade 1 shield for 1 food. With the mined wheat, I can do the same you do with the irrigated wheat, even gaining one commerce by more extensive use of the bonus ivory plains instead of standard forests. However, I would have to make more extensive use both flood plains, resulting in a higher chance for disease (IIRC). In my eyes, that's the main reason why you are right with irrigating the wheat, lower chance for disease.

Nevertheless, I was unable to follow your "5 turn settler" calculations: My calculation was the following (I already assume an irrigated wheat):

size 5: working IW, both flood plains, one ivory plain, one forest
=> 5 food per turn, growth in 2 (here I can follow)
=> 4 shields per turn (only city center, ivory plain & forest produce shields), thus 8 shields for the settler only

size 6: here you want growth in 3 turns, which means 22 shield in 3 turns or nearly 8 spt. I do not see how this should be able at size 7, with such low shield terrain. For example: Even at 3 fpt, working wheat, 1 flood plain, two forest/hill and both ivory plains I only calculate 7 spt. And for the third turn, you would have to shift one of the ivorys to the second flood plain for 4 fpt, resulting in 6 spt only. Overall (8 + 14 + 6) shields = 28 shields

Maybe you could explain to me where the mistake is in calculations, Architect?

Things would comletely change if we would go 6-7-8 for settler production, then I would understand the calculations. (But 6-7-8 is quite large for an ancient city IMHO. Even with 2 MP and the ivory, the fifth citizen will be born uncontent.)
Also for settler production in 6 turns I could easily understand the calculation.

So, finally, my conclusions after all this discussion, meant as suggestions to JMansell:
Please irrigate the wheat next and, until that is done, let Beijing work the second flood plain to speed up our growth. We will need two "2 spt" tiles in the near future, so you might consider mining one of the hills or one of the plains next to the river (higher commerce). And please start a granary asap (I personally would allow for the completion of our forth warrior this turn, however, as we could use him as scout now and as MP in some turns. Note, he will be our fifth troop, so we will have to pay for him.)

Good luck again, JMansell.

- Physicist

PS: I don't think we would have a chance to get the Pyramid, either.

The screenshots:

3450 BC: Here we meet the Iroquois warband. When our warrior headed south (towards their capitol), the mini-SoD of three warriors turned around and followed our scout. No idea why... :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-3450BC.jpg

Our map in the year 3000 BC. We have found Salamanca to the south and a yet unknown civilization to the north, near our scouting warrior. The Vikings are probably located somewhere to the west.
Note the gems some tiles SW of Beijing and the MANY bonus wheat flood plains around (I counted three). There is wine near our south scout, too.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-3000BC.jpg

Borealis has confirmed. Welcome!
We now have a roster of four players. One open spot left.

Roster:
Physicist
JMansell02 >>> UP
Architect >>> on deck
Borealis
(open)

- Physicist

I wish you guys well in this game - it should be fun for all involved if you've not used Communism extensively before. I also want to mention two points...

First, regarding five turn settlers and shield count. I didn't count it out, but Physicist, are you counting the extra shields you get *on* the turn that your city grows? The food calculation and city growth is handled before the shields are counted, meaning that if you micromanage food vs shield tiles, running 'high food' on the turn the city is expected to grow will mean the gov'ner will pick some extra shields for the next tile to work and you will get those applied that turn.

Second, regarding empire size... you have two basic 'good' choices with Communism. First, if you've tried Communism at all you've seen what a typical non-optimal choice does (ruin your civ :P). Playing the game 'normal' or as you would under Republic and changing to Communism because of war weariness is ruinous. Communism gives you two things, and these form the basis of the two good paths: communal corruption, and pop-rushing.

A: Small(ish) number of cities, at or not far above OCN, with little overlap between them. Distance can be as far apart as you like, even on other continents. This makes the best advantage of the communal corruption. The formula for HOW much corruption is highly dependent on empire size. This approach chooses city sites for their strategic resources or luxuries, and their strategic value (choke points, beachhead on another continent, etc)

B: A truly huge number of cities. Sprawling, all over the placed, ICS or dense spacing. Forget corruption, your entire empire will be wickedly corrupt. But you can pop-rush *everything* until the cows come home. No city should be (or will stay) above size 6, and few city improvements. SunTzu and Pyramids are just plain uber for this path. This is like extended despotic pop rushing except you don't have the resource penalty. Nothing but a temple in all but a few cities, as you can't afford the upkeep! All your cities will be producing 1 gold income, but the massive number of cities can support a huge army.

Based on what I know of you guys, path A is more your style :D

The problem is how to get there! You might consider a dotmap where your 'real' cities are spacing nicely apart with no overlap, and where you fill in the gap or have fishing villages. Consider those 'temporary' cities, build no/few buildings there and use them purely for things like settlers, workers, catapults (no rax req'd). When you hit communism, disband them. Then go to Monarchy (you do NOT want to get used to commerce bonuses of Republic ;P )

Along the way, don't over-build buildings, but do put a courthouse in *every* permanent city, and later a mandatory police station. If you can snag Pyramids or Sun Tzu, or Bach's, so much the better (all bldg-eliminators), also Smiths. If you don't build it, make it a part of your plans to capture them at some point. As you get closer to communism, make sure your further away cities are irrigated and good sized. They'll be uselessly corrupt right now, but will instantly become productive after the switch, so get them large asap.

I probably would build no libraries/univ, do none of my own research, get some ancient war. Horses are of course a great choice for China, and a large campaign once you get riders. Lots of workers too, and improve even those far away cities, even though it 'seems' a waste of time early.

Good luck comrades! :hammer:
Charis

Charis, thanks for the help and for the good wishes. :)

First, regarding five turn settlers and shield count. I didn't count it out, but Physicist, are you counting the extra shields you get *on* the turn that your city grows? The food calculation and city growth is handled before the shields are counted, meaning that if you micromanage food vs shield tiles, running 'high food' on the turn the city is expected to grow will mean the gov'ner will pick some extra shields for the next tile to work and you will get those applied that turn.
Oh, you are right, that was my mistake, and that's where the two missing shields came from. I feel very :smoke: ...

Second, regarding empire size... you have two basic 'good' choices with Communism. First, if you've tried Communism at all you've seen what a typical non-optimal choice does (ruin your civ :P). Playing the game 'normal' or as you would under Republic and changing to Communism because of war weariness is ruinous. Communism gives you two things, and these form the basis of the two good paths: communal corruption, and pop-rushing.

A: Small(ish) number of cities, at or not far above OCN, with little overlap between them. Distance can be as far apart as you like, even on other continents. This makes the best advantage of the communal corruption. The formula for HOW much corruption is highly dependent on empire size. This approach chooses city sites for their strategic resources or luxuries, and their strategic value (choke points, beachhead on another continent, etc)

B: A truly huge number of cities. Sprawling, all over the placed, ICS or dense spacing. Forget corruption, your entire empire will be wickedly corrupt. But you can pop-rush *everything* until the cows come home. No city should be (or will stay) above size 6, and few city improvements. SunTzu and Pyramids are just plain uber for this path. This is like extended despotic pop rushing except you don't have the resource penalty. Nothing but a temple in all but a few cities, as you can't afford the upkeep! All your cities will be producing 1 gold income, but the massive number of cities can support a huge army.

Based on what I know of you guys, path A is more your style


Well, first I should mention that I am fond of long term optimization and I do not really like closely spaced cites (2 tiles or less between cities). However, this should not be the criteria. However, we want to aim for a Spaceship Victory, and I would prefer not to poprush the whole spaceship :aargh: ;) . Thus, please path A here. :)

The problem is how to get there! You might consider a dotmap where your 'real' cities are spacing nicely apart with no overlap, and where you fill in the gap or have fishing villages. Consider those 'temporary' cities, build no/few buildings there and use them purely for things like settlers, workers, catapults (no rax req'd). When you hit communism, disband them. Then go to Monarchy (you do NOT want to get used to commerce bonuses of Republic ;P )

Who wants to go to Republic? NOBODY!
Otherwise, I concur.

Along the way, don't over-build buildings, but do put a courthouse in *every* permanent city, and later a mandatory police station. If you can snag Pyramids or Sun Tzu, or Bach's, so much the better (all bldg-eliminators), also Smiths. If you don't build it, make it a part of your plans to capture them at some point. As you get closer to communism, make sure your further away cities are irrigated and good sized. They'll be uselessly corrupt right now, but will instantly become productive after the switch, so get them large asap.

I probably would build no libraries/univ, do none of my own research, get some ancient war. Horses are of course a great choice for China, and a large campaign once you get riders. Lots of workers too, and improve even those far away cities, even though it 'seems' a waste of time early.

Well, you are pointing at exactly the strategy/tactics I was thinking about. Beginning with Smith, we *must* (and will :D ) get all later wonders (except Suffrage). From the ancient/middle ages, I would rate Pyramids the most important wonder, followed by SunTzu's (we might not need baracks in all of our cities if we divide the building tasks intelligently, like "city1 builds infantry, city2 two battelships, city3 artillery" all the time) and the "happiness" wonders. Pyramids is the wonder I would go to war for, ancient war (for leaders) and later war (capturing the city it was built in), even triggering our GA with riders if necessary. Unfortunately I do not really see a chance to build the Pyramids ourselves.

We should build only the most important city improvements. We will probably never research techs after Alphabet (lone scientist (me ! :) ) is of course always an option), so library etc is a waste of shields and gold, markets etc are our best friends. Early we will try to keep up techwise by 2-for-1 buys and, let's face reality, last civ buys. Later we might send out our vet spies the one or other time. We will be quite small and terribly lack culture, so we should have a (modern) military at hand to deter or react on possible AI attacks.

The only thing I am not sure about is whether we should delay our golden age until the modern age, skipping SunTzu's (as Architect proposed out), or whether we should make intensive use of our mighty riders in order clear territory for the one or other well placed "colony" (city) on key resources. But we do not have to decide on that, yet. Probably the AI will decide that for us. :)

- Physicist

I agree on probably not being able to hand-build the Pyramids- we'll have to either get a leader or take them from another civ.
As far as 'skipping' Sun Tzu's, we might be able to pull that off if we are on a large island/smaller continent and own it, only having to face the occasional AI invasion. If we're stuck on a large landmass, the sheer amount of gold saved by not having to have barracks everywhere to produce units to defend against invasion might make grabbing it our best option. If we wait on the GA, we can grab Hoover or wait until the Internet comes along to speed our space race victory, depending on the circumstances.

If we decide to skip Sun Tzu, I'd advise grabbing the Great Library from someone in the late Ancient or early Middle Ages, to help keep us in pace with the AI until they build universities. This will give us a good chance to grab Smith's and let us save cash for later tech. With two expansionist AI that we know of, there's a good chance they'll get Literature from a hut, rather than leaving it to research after Monarchy/Republic as their usual priorities seem to run.

@Borealis: I don't think that we should make an effort to self-build TGL (I'd prefer do build an early FP), but if we can easily capture it, why not. It makes life so much easier :) . However, when talking about TGL we should keep in mind that intensive trading with and gpt payments to the AIs improve foreign relations and reduce the chance for an unwanted war. Again, I suppose that the AI will decide that for us.
BTW, I am sure that we will get Smith's even without TGL! :D

@JMansell: Unfortunately, your 24 hours for confirmation are over. I am sorry, but you are skipped.

@Architect: You are up. To let the game get some momentum, you -as the second player- may play 20 turns instead of 10, decision is up to you.

- Physicist

JMansell: skipped
Architect: >>> UP
Borealis: >>> on deck

Got it.

hi guys, i just wanted to point out some issues on communism from my own experience in epic 15.

Courthouses are uber-important. Even in the capitol. Don't build them too soon, though, as the gpt upkeep can be crucial in the early game, where fourteen cities with courthouses means 14gpt less income. But just as your dawning on the Industrial era, that's the time to start getting the courthouses going, cash-rushing (under Monarchy) just before the rebellion wherever possible, so they're in place when you make the leap.

The only thing I'm fuzzy on with Communism is if the Forbidden Palace gives any benefit at all. If our (mutual) assumption on how the overall corruption is calculated (before its even distribution), then the FP does help, as you have a low-corruption second core, with less overall corruption added to the picture. It'd be nice to do some tests with communism and the FP to see how it works, exactly.

Fourteen is the optimal city number for standard map. Fourteen worked great for me in epic 15. It was kinda weird, having 2/3 of the continent deserted and littered with railways from the remnants of my foes, just be sure to have guards on your workers in that situation to prevent barb rapings, as even barbs have infinite moves on rails in neutral territory.

I *may* join up on this one, if the time permits, its too soon to say. But if I do I will definatley try to let you know before the game goes too far.

falsfire: If you decide to join, you will be welcome. Just drop a note. :)

Concerning corruption and FP. I have checked alexman's great corruption thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19922) . There alexman states that FP indeed has an influence on the corruption level you face under communism. In the modifer for the optimal city number Fn there is a parameter g. alexman notes for this parameter
"g : 0.1 if Republic or Democracy, 0.25 if in Communism with a FP, 0.0 otherwise".

In the next days, I will try to understand the formula and calculate the corruption levels we have to expect for different city numbers and city improvements.

- Physicist

3000BC(0) - I leave everything as is.

2950BC(1) - We meet the Greeks. They lack pottery and have alphabet. I can trade the pottery for 20g and do. I begin construction of a granary in Bejing. 7 turns to alphabet.

2850BC(3) Our wheat is irrigated. Granary in 13 turns.

2800BC(4) We meet egypt who also lack pottery. We trade alphabet for pottery. I set us to 40 turn writing for now. I trade Alphabet and 6 gold for the Wheel with the Iroquois. I trade alphabet for 33gold to vikings. No other deals are possible at this time.

IT: Egypt and Greece are at war.

2750BC(5) I trade The Wheel and 45g for 2 Greecian workers.

2590BC(9) We are size 5 now.

2470BC(12) Viking have iron working.

2350BC(15) I trade the Wheel and 80gold for Iron Working.

2310BC(16) Our main improvements are complete around Bejing. 3 turns for a spearman and size 7 and we can start cranking settlers.

2190BC(19) Barbians may attack Bejing next turn.

2150BC(20) We defend Bejing just fine and then lose one of our scouts to a barbarian.. We are almost at tech parity save Mysticism. I see Gems, Wines, Dyes, and Furs within our initial city count so we will eventually secure 5 luxuries without trade.. No time for dotmap sorry plus someone else should practice. Oh.. Iron and horses are within our grasp too.

2150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-2150bc.zip)

Got it.

OK, I will try to make a dotmap this afternoon (means ~ 4 p.m. GMT or noon for you).

- Physicist

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-2150bc-dotmap.jpg

(second post to avoid left-right scrolling when reading the text)

First settler should settle at red dot, where the road goes to. This city is intended to produce units for protection of our settlers.
Second level priority are yellow, green & white dot (they grab the strategic resources). The rest later.

Comments to the dots in detail:

* Note that I did not plan an agressive settlement near the wine tiles. Actually, I like the Iroquois city Grand River (wine, river, many bonus grass and hill including gold) and would like to take it from Haiwa sooner or later. Thus, I have already 'included' it into the dotmap as is it where one of our cities to reduce overlap.

* We lack map info to the SW. From what we know now, I would see white dot as junk city (no improvements, abandon before Communism) just to grab Iron and gems asap. At the moment, I fear that there might be too may many mountains there. Might change with more map info, so keep this warrior exploring. Light blue and dark blue are suggestions for permanent cities that will secure these resources in the distant future.

* One of the two green dots should grab the horses. Light green is a semi-agressive settlement towards Sparta (1 tile overlap). Dark green is a more conservative solution, but if Alex settles light green, we are in trouble as then the horse is gone and we might have to go to war against Hoplites in order to get it.
If we settle light green, then grey dot might be an intersting city location.

* I do not really like orange dot: 1 tile overlap w/ yellow, 2 w/ dark purple. Without orange, dark purple could move towards the river. Dark purple would be a powerfull coastal city.

* There are two light purple dots, one to the very east and one to the very NW. Those are idea for grabbing the luxes over there, but I have not really thought about those. We lack map info there, too.

* Note that there is much room for junk cities in the N and SE of Beijing, although I didn't plot those.

I am short of time at the moment, so no more dots... We sould be able to start a discussion with that map.

@Borealis: You will only be able to settle the first city, so for the other dots we will have more time for discussion.(If anyone disagrees with my choice for the first city, post soon!) EDIT: That's not the full truth of course as you will have to send out our second settler, too. The settler will be finished in 7 turns, so you might even be able to found the second city.
Keep in mind to micromanage Beijing for settlers in 5 turns (5 food at size 5 for growth in two turns) as Architect has described in an earlier post.
Good luck! :)

I cracked up on your earlier comment regarding having the "one scientist" for research :lol:

And now you confirm your nature!
Plain circles aren't enough, you made those using
Gaussian distributions, as if a quantum 1P electron orbital map!

The map looks decent, although they seem a bit sparse and some cities are somewhat far from the capital. That's mostly a matter of preference. In any case, pump those settlers out and grab some land!

:P
Charis

Originally posted by Charis
I cracked up on your earlier comment regarding having the "one scientist" for research :lol:

And now you confirm your nature!
Plain circles aren't enough, you made those using
Gaussian distributions, as if a quantum 1P electron orbital map!


Charis: :lol: "Lots of giant atoms were found on the Chinese land. Maybe this is a good omen and we should build our cities there?" ;)


The map looks decent, although they seem a bit sparse and some cities are somewhat far from the capital. That's mostly a matter of preference.

In a normal game, I would have planned for a denser build. Here I had "Communism" and minimal overlap in mind when "placing the cities". Of course we could fill the gaps with junk cities.
Nevertheless, I am glad for any corrections. Don't hesitate moving the dots around.

- Physicist

2150BC (Inherited Turn): Nothing to change. Beijing is in good shape, and the settler is due in 2 turns.

2110 (1) Workers run away from barb near red dot.

(IT) Disease hits Beijing.

2070(2) Beijing builds settler; sends it to red dot.

(IT) Disease strikes Beijing.

2030(3) Diplocheck reveals that everyone has Mysticism- if we go for Monarchy, we should be able to buy it easily when the time comes. Alex lacks any cash, but is Annoyed with us- buying it also might stop a war if he covets our treasury. He will sell it for 68 gold, probably the best price as he's commercial, but I hold off on possibly buying something more useful. The Vikings and the Iroquois are building the Oracle.

1990(4) Shanghai founded on red dot, dispersing barb camp.

1950(5) Warrior to east finds Japan, who lacks Masonry or Alphabet. He has 27 gold, not quite enough to justify selling tech yet. The spear in Shanghai heads back to Beijing, as it needs more defense from the nearby barbs.

(IT) Barb pillages floodplain tile and ivory tile near us, not preventable without leaving Beijing undefended the turn afterwards. I don't want to risk population lost, though gold would probably be subtracted instead... after the RNG gives us disease two turns in a row, I'm not taking chances.

1910(6) "Hello, Alex? I have a special offer for you... we'll send you some nice, shiny gold coins every turn if you'll give us Mysticism. Oh? You like this offer? Good! Here's three shiny pieces every fiscal year, along with fourteen ones we have lying around the treasury."

"By the way... we appreciate the extra security, but with the barbarian menace cleared out near Shanghai, we really don't need the assistance in keeping our trade routes clear. If you want to direct your Archer/Hoplite Anti-Barbarian Corps somewhere else, I believe I saw barbarians lurking near Salamanca."

1870BC(7) "Alex, please, pay attention to your hoplites... they're wandering around near Shanghai again. The barbarian camp is probably to the west of it, not the east. Please ask for directions in the future."

Warriors exploring to the east, extorts... ahem, receives donations from a local barbarian village.

1830BC(8)
"Alex? Your hoplites are scaring the elephants and making the tusk harvest difficult. Would you mind moving them? What? You would? How impolite?"

The Military Advisor grabs the phone from the Trade Advisor, and makes his displeasure known in no uncertain terms: "Out! Now!"

Unfortunately, the Anti-Barbarian Corps disobeys, under orders to fetch Alex a pet elephant, and war is declared!

"Hiawatha? How's it going? Oh, you want to pass some new plans to Phys Eins... hmm... 95 gold for something called a 'saddle', along with a 'bridle' and 'stirrups.' Let me get back to you on that- I don't think I can justify blowing the budget on that yet. You might ask Cleo, though- she's built up a tidy bit of cash, and will probably buy it from you if you ask her."

(IT): Ragnar stomps into the palace, demanding what he thinks is 'his' share of the petty cash. The Military Advisor tells him to take his admittedly empty threats elsewhere, as he has no units ready to strike our cities. Sulkily, Ragnar, not content with his massive treasury, filled with heaps of gold, declares war out of spite.

A Greek archer corps, full of swagger, wounds but fails to succeed in defeating our spearmen.

1790BC(9):
(IT): The Greek hoplites steal elephants, cutting off the ivory supply from Shanghai by poaching on our land.

1750BC(10): A veteran spear corps, incensed by the greek poachers, kills a hoplite company, leaving only one roaming band of land-rapers. A Viking archer heads for our warrior on the hill.

Hmmm... We are not in a good situation here. The Greeks may make us pay for peace, after all that pillaging, but I don't see how we can strike back against hoplites. Out of sheer desperation, a spear took out one hoplite but there is another near Beijing that will probably pillage until we kill it. Beijing can be swapped to an archer if you think it will have a good chance to do so- it's risky, and terrain-dependent. The Vikings we can either pay for peace, or delay until we have Writing and get an alliance with Hiawatha, who might be at war with him already- he's at least considering it, as I've seen several Iroquois SoDs approach Stockholm before backing off.

I made the Mysticism deal in the hope that Alex wouldn't renege, but he did- his reputation is now busted, and we grabbed the tech for ~20 gold instead of 75. This is valid- I've seen the AI back off in PTW before for gpt, and even if the deal had stayed, it's wouldn't have been that bad a drain on our resources. Horseback Riding is available from Hiawatha- until we get a horse resource within our borders, I advise holding off on buying it until Cleo gets it- she has 52 gold and another barb camp will probably make her able to buy it from another AI.

I leave it to the business of extricating ourselves from this sticky situation to the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys_Eins_of_the_Chinese,_1750_BC.SAV).

Edit: This should be the correct file. Sorry about the problems with the first one. :wallbash:

Got it.

@Physicist

PLEASE PLAY QUICKLY!

I dont have much time after Mon morning and would like to get at least half the turns played before then.

JMansell

Borealis: Wrong file!

I was visiting my parents during the weekend and didn't have time for Civ. I just checked the forums once and, without reading your report or having a closer look at the file, posted my 'got it'. :( I shouldn't have done that, of course.

Now I realized that you posted the 1830 BC file and *not* the 1750 BC file! Please post the correct file ASAP! I will then play monday night (if I get the file in time) or tuesday night (GMT).

JMansell: Sorry that I did not play on the weekend. In the future, if you can forsee that you will only able to play during the weekend, please post a message *before* the weekend. Then we will try to find a solution. I would gladly have changed my place in the rotation with you for this round.
Do you see a possibility to play this week at all?

- Physicist

Yeah I should be able to play. However I suggest Architect should stay on stand by just in case. Thank you.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1750BC.jpg

Status of the Empire
The young Chinese nation indeed lives in interesting times! We are at war with two of our neighbors. Our settler factory Beijing is growing slowly at size 5 and producing military, Greek Hoplite forces are pillaging the fields around Beijing. Shanghai is not connected to Beijing any more. Both Scandinavia and Greece are not willing to talk to us.

Summary:
We stop the Greek Hoplite pillaging our lands.
Peace is made with both of our enemies (however, we have to pay a significant amount of reparation).
Beijing's land is partially re-improved, settler production is taken up again.

Report on the years 1750 BC - 1500 BC
1750 BC - (0)
Lux slider back to 0%.
Change spear production Beijing to archer.

1725BC - (1)
Our worker head for Beijing.
MM Beijing for archer in 3 turns at the cost of 1 gold. Archer and one Spear leave Beijing in order to protect our improved tiles.
Our SW scout flees from a Viking archer. We don't want to loose any troops at the moment.
Horseback Riding has been traded around among the three Civs that are friendly towards us. Haiwa knows Writing.
We sell Masonry and Alphabet to Japan for Horseback Riding and 12g, he goes from annoyed to cautious.
We buy an Iroquois worker for 2 gpt & 71g. Haiwa goes from cautious to polite.
(I) Hoplite pillages flood plain. Barb warrior appears near Shanghai.

1700BC - (2)
(I) Scared by our mighty forces, ehm, well, or maybe without undefended tiles for pillaging in reach, the Greek Hoplite flees. Shanghai completes a much needed Spear (with a barb warrior nearby).

1675BC - (3)
Our workers start re-improving Beijings tiles. MM Beijing for max growth again. We pop a "skilled" warrior out of a goody hut.
(I) Our Spear in Shanghai promotes to Elite while defending Shanghai against barb attack!
Beijing grows to size 6.

1650BC - (4)
lux to 10%. Our SW warrior (scout) reports that he is now hunted by 1 Viking warrior and 2 archers.

1625BC - (5)
We learn that the Iroqois founded Cattaraugus between yellow and light blue dot, that our first ring!
Cleo has Writing.

1600BC - (6)
Lux to 20% to avoid Beijing rioting.
Alex is willing to talk! He knows Writing. We make peace with Alex for 20g.

1575BC - (7)
Attacking a barb camp with two warriors, we unfortunately loose the vet warrior. The conscript warrior succeeds, is promoted to reg. We get 25g.
The Vikings are willing to talk! Ragnar wants 160g for peace! :eek: With our next settler due in 2 turns, three Viking units approaching Beijing and a 'hopelessly behind' Chinese nation in mind I decide to make peace with Ragnar. However, I make give 4 gpt and 88 g instead of plain 160 g which would have left us broke.

1550BC - (8)
(I) A barb warrior attacks our E scouting warrior and promotes him to vet.

1525BC - (9)
We have built our second settler (lux back to 10%). He heads for black dot.
Toku knows Mysticism
(I) the Japs start the Oracle

1500BC - (10)
zzz

Comments and Suggestions:
* The Settler was basically heading towards black dot, where the unmoved warrior is standing. I am not really happy with this location any more; although it has access to fresh water, it will not grow beyond size 9 before rails (assuming all four reachable grass tiles are irrigated, four mined hills and one mountain; overlap with Stockholm ignored...), and it will always grow slowly. Considering that, I would tend to build the city where the settler is currently located. This will secure the Iron and will grab the gems with a temple. Decision is up to the next player, although I would be glad to hear the opinion of others, too.
In any case, this will be a junk city (to be abandoned before Communism), so please name it 'Junk 1' or somethink like that (you are the native speakers, so feel free to invent a better name ;) ). Nevertheless, we should settle in this region first as it it secures Iron and Gems, and we need both. This city needs tile improvement as soon as Beijing 'finished'. Make sure that it does not grab any of the tiles Beijing needs for "settler in 5 turns".
* We must expand like crazy, so take care for Beijing (mm for settler in 5 turns as stated earlier, adjusting lux slider after growth). In the future barracks in Shanghai might be considered, but do not send out unprotected settlers in this tense diplomatic situation.
* There was not much discussion about my dotmap. Should I make a new one, taking into account the lately settled AI cities? Or is the old dotmap ok? Anyway, I would propose to settle next near the Horses and the second Iron resource (maybe moving yellow dot 2 NE?).
* Currently, we have three scouts: warrior far E, archer near E (intended to stay close to Beijing) and a warrior heading W from Shanghai. The spear between Shanghai & Beijing is intended to protect the next settler.

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1500BC.zip

JMansell: UP
Architect: on deck

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1500BC.jpg

Got it. Will try and play tonight or tomorrow morning.

Also we need to gat a city running that with the help of a granary can pump out workers until the end of time. I suggest the light green dot as this will snag the horses and get a good food city online. Then we can get the 2nd iron. Thoughts, Comments?

JMansell

Originally posted by jmansell02 Also we need to gat a city running that with the help of a granary can pump out workers until the end of time. I suggest the light green dot as this will snag the horses and get a good food city online. Then we can get the 2nd iron. Thoughts, Comments?


:thumbsup: to grabbing Horses & 2nd Iron! BTW, Athens is size one, maybe Alex built a settler recently. We will see ...

Concerning Worker Factory: I thought about your idea of the worker factory and I am not sure if we really need that. First, with our slow early landgrabbing, we will have to go to war sooner than later. This usually means that we will get (industrious) slaves which will allow us to keep the number of our native workers low (we will not need 70+ native workers as in 'The2'). Second, there are lots of flood plains around which will allow for fast growth and a regular production of workers at size 6/12. This is especially true for those 'junk cities' (to be abandoned in Communism) which will not build improvements but units, esp. workers. In our case, some 'junk cities' with flood plains at size 6, each producing a worker every second/third turn might do the job. Our permanent cities should grow and build improvements instead.
Just my thoughts, open for discussion of course.

JMansell: Good luck for your first turns in this game! :)

- Physicist

I'm REALLY sorry to dissapoint you guys but... er... um... you see... I haven't really got time to play a SG at the moment. I will keep an eye on this game and try to offer some helpful suggestions but I'm afraid I'll have to opt out. So I guess its over to Architect. Sorry. :(

:suicide:

*splutter* *splutter* *gasp*
"Go...od... by...e"
*fall to ground dead"

JMansell

@JMansell: Sorry to hear that. I would have been glad to play the game with you, but I accept your decision, of course.

@Architect & Borealis: We are down to three players. I personally would still like to play that game. Would you agree to continue playing? Maybe one or two other players will decide to join then...

- Physicist

I'll continue. Post a plea for help in the open slot thread and maybe we'll get a taker. :)

Borealis: Thank you for continuing! :) I have edited my post in the SG Registry. Maybe that helps...

Also, a comment to the lurkers in this thread: We need one or two additional players! If you have some Emperor experience, don't hesitate to apply! Feel free post here or PM me.

Architect: If you are willing to continue, you are up now.

Roster:
Physicist
Architect >>> UP NOW
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)
(open)

I got it. But I'm up in two games again so give me a day or so.

Architect: Thanks for continuing to you, too. :)

Originally posted by Architect
I got it. But I'm up in two games again so give me a day or so.

Definitely no problem, take your time. The original ruleset suggested overall 72h for 'got it', playing and posting. As long as we are three players only, I would allow for even more flexibility if necessary. However, I would ask for a short note here in the thread so that the other players know about the current status.

@team: With three players only, would you prefer to play 20 turns (at least as an option), or should we stick to the original "10 turns strictly" rule?

- Physicist

I'd prefer 10 turns for 'quick play' or wars, and maybe 20 if you take the full 48 to play. Later in the game, we'll probably have to scale back to 10 turns/session.

Also, a scheduling note: I'm going to be out of town from Friday afternoon until around noon Sunday, as I have to go home for the weekend. I should be able to play if I get it before ~10 am Friday morning, if not, I'll have to wait for Sunday afternoon. If my turn comes up in between those times, go ahead and skip me, or wait for me, as you like.

I'm finally going to play today. Got a bit of food poisoning from bad sushi and it kept me off the computer. Finishing up my first game and then will do this one. Expect a post in a few hours.

1500BC(0) We need settlers. I'm going to go ahead and found on the hill near the water as that will allow the gems much sooner.

IT: Greece demands tribute of 24g. I give in *this* time.

1475BC(1)

1450BC(2) Polythesim has been discovered.

1425Bc(3) Canton is founded and begins constuction of a worker.

1400BC(4) Writing is discovered. I go for Literature at 40 turns. We establish embassies with The Iros, Greeks, and Vikings. A settler completes in Bejing and heads for the green dot near the horses.

1375BC(5) The iros suddenly have literature so I switch to math.

1350BC(6) ...

1325BC(7) ...

1300BC(8) Nanking is founded.

1275BC(9) I send next settler to found 2 south of the light green dot as the egyptians have taken the grey dot.

1250BC(10) Five turn settlers are working great. Don't screw this up as it is our biggest advantage right now. Use the workers being produced right now to connect up the iron and then the gems. Don't build anything but workers in Canton. The cultural pressure on memphis might pick our first target for destruction. Next priority should be to grab as much of the lands near the Iros as possible they are being attacked by much of the world so seize the day. After the worker completes in Shanghai start building spearman again as I did construct a barracks there. I didn't check diplomacy this turn so you'll want to check it.

Since Bor is out, I guess Physicist is up. If you play I can probably get another 10 in this weekend.

Physicist --> UP
Architect --> On deck unless Borealis comes back.
Borealis
(OPEN)
(OPEN)


1250BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys-1250bc.zip)

Architect: Sorry to hear about the food poisoning. I hope you are at good health again.

Concering the game: I am currently not at home (no access to Civ), but I will return in few hours. Unless Borealis has returned, I will post a 'got it' then, play 10 turns and post my report (around 20 GMT).

- Physicist

EDIT: Got it.

Summary:
Two cities founded.
Traded near tech parity.
Oracle and Colossus have been built, TGL started by many of our neighbors.

Report on the years 1250 BC - 1000 BC:

1250 BC - (0)
Everythink looks good. Diplomathy: Scandinavians have Polytheism, Iroquois have Map Making & Literature, Egypt has one worker. We could afford Literature, but it would leave us nearly broke, so I do not buy it yet. All other techs are too expensive for us.

We buy the Egyptian worker for 4 gpt & 40 g. The worker heads towards Canton. With all those mountains, we have use for it there.

I am not completely sure if I should send the settler to the location suggested by Architect (Egypt might see that as agressive settlement) or if should settle orange dot or near the second Iron instead. After some consideration, I decide to follow Architects plan; 2 S of light green dot this city will be a quite strong city due to floodplains and the mined mountains.

(I) Greek and Iroquois sign a peace treaty. Egypt estabishes an embassy.

1225 BC - (1)
Shanghai starts spear production.
(I) The Iroquois city of Salamanca completes the Oracle.

1200 BC - (2)
We found Desert Junk 2 S of light green dot. Horses come online.
(I) Greece and Iroquois have signed a military alliance against Scandinavia. As a consequence, Greece declares war on Scandinavia.

1175 BC - (3)
Grml. The Iroquis have founded Tonawanda 1 tile east of the ruins of their former city :( . I wanted to send our next settler there.
Hey. There was some trading interturn.
Japan: knows Map Making, Literature and Code of Law. Broke.
Egypt: knows Map Making, Literature. Broke.
Iroquois: Map Making, Literature, Code of Law. 381g.
Scandinavia: Map Making, Polytheism, Code of Law. 72g.
Greece: Map Making, Literature. 41g.
We lack all of those techs...

In other word, the Vikings have a monopoly on Polytheism, but lack Literature. Greece and Egypt lack Code of Law additionally. Looks like a trading opportunity :)
We buy from ...
Scandinavia: Code of Law for 10 gpt & 3g
Greece: Literature & 31g for Code of Law
Scandinavia: 1 gpt & 58 g for Literature
Egypt: Map Making for Code of Law and 54 g

After dealing with us, everybody is on tech parity (including us :D ). Exception: Scandinavia still has a monopoly on Polytheism. We tried to buy that tech, but were far from getting it even when putting everything on the table ("I doubt they will accept..."). Nevertheless, we gained three techs, dropping from an income of 12 gpt to 4 gpt, however. But I think it was worth it :).
Note that I did *not* sell WM or TM, and that I did not give gpt to anyone except the Vikings (which are not one of our closest neighbors). We are paying 9 gpt (netto) to them.

(I) The Greeks (Athens) & the Japanese (Kyoto) start The Great Library.

1150 BC - (4)
(I) Japan and Iroquois sign millitary alliance against Egypt, Japan declares war on Egypt. The Vikings start TGL in Trondheim.

1125 BC - (5)
(I) Scandinavia & Japan: Alliance agianst Egypt. Scandinavia declares War. Egypt (at war with the three most powerful civs on this piece of land) starts TGL :crazyeyes: in Memphis.

1100 BC - (6)
Egypt has Mathematics. Our 10% research will take another 29 turns.
(I) Egypt offeres an exchance of WM, but wants 50g for it. We decline.
Babylon completes the Colossus.

1075 BC - (7)
A barb horse has appeared near Shanghai and threatens our worker there. Worker retreats to Shanghai.
We found Xinjian on orange dot.
(I) Our peace treaty with Scandinavia is renewed. Our spear defends against the barb horse.

1025 BC - (9)
Egypt offers a worker, Scandinavia two. Scandinavia has learned Philosophy. We could buy two workers for all our cash and 6 gpt (we are making 10 gpt currently). That seems to be too expensive to me as we have to collect some money for the upcoming trades. I buy one worker from Scandinavia for 2 gpt and 80g.

1000 BC - (10)
The Scandinavian worker is still available...

Comments and Suggestions:
* A group, consisting of settler, spear & (Scandinavian) worker, has not yet been moved. I intended to settle dark purple dot with them. We need an at least semi-productive harbor! But decision is up to you. If we would move the city 1 S, the overlap with Xinjian would be high and we would have to abandon one of the cities (prob. Xinjian) before Communism (which would not be a great problem IMO). Or we could move the city one more tile SE (onto the bg). Would grab the whale & be at river, but miss the Ivory.
* There are one spear and one warrior in the middle of our land. The spear is indended to accompany the next settler obviously, the warrior might scout W or maybe go to Beijing for MP, freeing one of the archers there.
* As Architect said before: Keep Beijing on "settler in 5 turns", Canton on worker and Shanghai on spear production. Feel free to veto the other build orders, I did not consider them intensively.
We might perhaps allow Canton to grow once and then place a lone scientist there; we are currently spenting 3 gpt on min sci research. Just an idea.
* We could buy another worker from Ragnar, but we should keep an eye on our cash. Three tech monopolies currently exist, all of them too expensive at the moment, but trading possibilities should appear in the future with all civs at war with somebody. Be careful when trading with Cleo, she is the weakest civ (two cities only) and at war with the top three. We should avoid "per turn" deals with her if possible.

Borealis, Architect, it is your decision who is going to play next. I would suggest that, if Borealis has not returned yet and Architect can play today, Architect should take it.

Good luck to the next player! :)

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1000BC.zip

PS: I might post a screenshot later.

I'm back, and I've "got it." :)

Note that there seems to be a funny North-South gradient in the power of the civs. The three most powerful civs (with Scandinavia being top) are located in the south. Egypt and Greece, located in the north, have two/three cities only and are already notable behind in the power graph. China, a 'middle power', is geographically located in the middle of the continent, too.
The power ranking might change in the future, of course... :D :ninja:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-1000bc.jpg

EDIT: Screenshot loads now.

@Borealis: Welcome back, and good luck with your turns!

@team: I don't think we should return to the old roster as I would have to play again after Borealis. Thus, I intend to change the roster. (With three players, we should allow for some flexibility here.)

- Physicist

New Roster:
Physicist
Borealis >>> up and playing
Architect >>> on deck
(open)
(open)

(0) Inherited turn: Settler/spear/worker sent to hill on river. The new city will overlap with Xinjian but we can reschedule later. We'll want at least one city apiece later to grab the luxuries we don't have- dyes and silk- that are visible to the east, and this city provides a harbor/bridge to them, if we make those cities coastal. Furs to the west also beckon; if we play it right, we could have three luxuries, and four a little later, in our empire within a few player turns.

Checking cities reveals that Shanghai will revolt next turn unless something is done. :nono: It gets a clown for a few turns, until the spear there is completed.

(1) 975 BC: Elite warrior grabs 25 gold from barb camp near silks with no lost hp. Warrior near Shanghai goes exploring; spear goes into Beijing to relieve MP there, and provides better defense.

(2) 950BC: Gems are now hooked up, and Shanghai's clown is fired.

(IT): Greece and Japan sign a peace treaty. The Japanese warriors are seen heading towards Memphis.


(3) 925 BC: Canton switched to Temple; this can be vetoed but I think that having the extra cultural power would help, as this city is a keeper. Once it grows, it can use the hill soon to be mined near it, and it's close enough to the capital to be productive.

(IT): Vikings and Iroquois sign a peace treaty.

(4) 900 BC: Archer + settler pair head for furs near Shanghai. Chengdu founded.

(5) 875 BC: Diplo check reveals that three civs have Philosophy and two have Polytheism. Cleo has Math, but as we will get it in 20 turns and the price will drop if she makes peace with anyone for it as the price, I wait to tech-shop.

(6) 850 BC:

(7) 825 BC:

(8) 800 BC: Argh! Greek hoplite/settler pair may grab city site first.
(IT): Japan offers to sell me Philosophy- probably everyone but Cleo has it now.

(9) 775 BC: Hangchow is founded, overlapping two squares with Shanghai- those two squares consist of a mountain and a desert square apiece, and shouldn't be that big of a loss. Also, waiting to move would lose the furs to the Greeks, as the AI has a settler/hoplite pair in position for what it would consider a good city. As it will grow in 20 turns until the workers bring irrigation, I set it to build a temple. This can be swapped out later as needed.
There are threatening-looking Viking archers near Canton.

Tokugawa sells us Polytheism for 183 gold and 2 gpt- it's time to trade tech, with the top three AI all three techs ahead, and Cleo with an extra worker. Polytheism + 3 gold gets us Math + an Egyptian worker. Polytheism + 6 gold + 3gpt gets us Philosophy. 40-turn research on Monarchy started, as we need to get out of Despotism, and Monarchy will allow us to go to war easily (which we will probably need to do sooner rather than later), and make an easier transition to Communism when the time comes. We are now at tech parity.

(IT): Forbidden Palace prompt.

(10) 750 BC: Viking and Japanese units move through our territory. Elite warrior disperses a barb encampment with 1 hp loss. Vet warrior disperses a barb encampment with 2 hp loss.

(IT) : Vikings and Greece sign a peace treaty. Viking archers move around Canton threateningly.

(11) 730 BC:
(IT): More Viking movement.

(12) 710 BC: Large Viking archer SoD spied in jungle. We have 5 turns left on the peace treaty, and hopefully we can buy something from Ragnar when it runs out. Furs hooked up at Hangchow allow me to drop the luxury tax- we are now making 22 gpt. Spear moves into Beijing.

(13) 690 BC:

(14) 670 BC:

(15) 650 BC: Settler/spear pair stay in Beijing in case Ragnar decides to break his treaty early.

(IT): Ragnar appears to be just passing through. With the large volume and quality of units, along with the Iroquois archers, expect Cleo to be toast/paying tribute soon.

(16) 630 BC:

(17) 610 BC: Settler/spear pair out of Shanghai moves towards river-fed cattle, and can be placed according to the next leader's discretion.

(18) 590 BC: Tientsin founded. This city will grab dyes and be productive once jungle is cleared, and is on a river. It avoids overlap with Chengdu.
(IT): A Japanese archer loses to an Egyptian archer. Many gpt deals end, putting us at +35 gpt.

(19) 570 BC:
(IT): Greece offers to trade WM if we give up 70 gold. I pass for now, but this gives us a relative idea of our map's worth- not much, as being the highway to Cleo makes our territory very visible.

(20) 550 BC: Nanking will build a settler in 8 turns, when it grows, but could be allowed to grow more as we'll have *four* luxuries once the workers connect the dyes near Tientsin. Canton needs to complete its temple/grow again before it is used to make a scientist, as we need to get a cultural edge there. Beijing is due to build a settler as it grows. There is a settler/spear pair in Canton, and a settler/spear pair near the rivers to Canton's NW. We are currently running a 36 gpt surplus, with 347 gold in the bank- more than anyone but the Vikings, who will probably demand more from us soon. In 9 turns our tech deals with Alex and Tokugawa will expire and our income will jump to 41 gpt. Monarchy is due in 29, and can be shortened to 18 turns if we feel it is necessary. The AI has no tech to trade right now, and is at peace with everyone but Cleo.

As long as we avoid war with the Vikings too early, we should be fine, but doing so is very necessary- the massive numbers of units passing through our territory dictate extreme caution when dealing with Ragnar. I leave it to the
next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-550BC.zip) to possibly direct the transition to a Monarchy.

Edit: Double post.

Borealis: Well played! I had a sneak peak at the save, and we seem to be in a much better shape now. We are #2 in land size and population on the F11 screen. And FOUR native luxuries...! :thumbsup:
Ehm, sorry for not checking Shanghai. I feel :blush:. Looks like I tend to forget about that before saving the file in the last turn... :( . I will try to avoid such :smoke: in the future.

Architect: >>> UP NOW
Physicist: >>> on deck

Hm, no news from Architect. The 24 hours for confirmation are over.

I will take the game and play 10 turns as I have time now. Expect my report in a few hours.

Borealis, I would like to give Architect a chance to play after me, so I put him "on deck" again. I hope that's ok for you.

Roster:
Physicist: up and playing
Architect: on deck
Borealis

Summary:

* Tatung & Macao (future FP location?) founded. Two more settlers near possible city locations.
* The Great Library was completed in Kyoto.
* The Vikings razed Memphis.


Status of the Empire

Monarchy: ASAP! Sci to 80%, due in 18 turns. (Borealis: Just a reminder: Representative governments are not allowed! :) No need to think about alternatives to Monarchy.).

We lack military. Shanghai alone can not provide enough troops.


Report on the years 550 BC - 1000 BC:

550 BC - (0)

Build orders:
* Beijing's "5 turns settler" cycle is broken. The settler finished in 1 turn will drop Beijing to size 4. :nono: :) . I don't want to build a sword here, so I will allow the settler to complete, but we will go full growth afterwards. With +5 fpt all the time, we will complete the next settler in 6 turns and be back to 5-6-7 settler production cycle.
* With the government change to monarchy and the lack of a granary in mind, Nanking is switched from settler to 'rax. We need more military urgently!
* Chengdu does not need a harbor yet, as it has lots of good tiles to work, but needs a temple to grab the whale and the two ivory tiles. (Our galleys need not be veteran yet, for exploring). Switch harbor -> temple.
* Tientsin, however, is completely surrounded by jungle and will not be able to grow beyond size 2. We lack the workers to cut that jungle down at the moment. Thus, temple switched to harbor here.
* I will keep Desert Junk & Xinjian at worker production. Desert Junk may need a temple due to overlap with Memphis, but is think Cleo has other problems and will not build a temple there. I will keep in mind to MM these cities for worker production after/at growth and not before growth.

City placement:
* Canton (max. size 10, even with rails ), Desert Junk and probably Xinjian (4 tiles overlap with Chengdu) are junk cities, to be abandoned in Communism.
* Thus, the settler near Canton will found a permanent city. This city will have to grab Cantons Iron under Communism, with minimal overlap with Shanghai. Thus the settler will found 1S from its current position.
* There is also a good site S of Chengdu & Xinjian. Might grab the Iron over there, and a potential FP site.
* There are silks 5E of Tientsin. A potential fifth native lux! I want to settle there, although we will probably not keep this city under Communism (only few shields).
* Controlling the four Dyes in the eastern jungle would be nice for trades.
* The settler in Canton and the new settler to be build in Beijing will both head east to grab those sites.

(I) Greece & Japan: Mil. alliance against Egypt, Greece declares war on Egypt. Poor Cleo.

530 BC - (1)
Tatung founded NW of Canton.
(I) Buy worker from Scandinavia for 2 gpt & 80g. Lots of fighting, mostly Vikings against Egyptians. The Iros kindly kill a barb horse that threatened our Great Eastern Road.

510 BC - (2)
Hm, some of our workers have irrigated a grass near Xinjian. Irrigating one of the flood plains would have been better...
(I) Egypt and Iro make Peace. KYOTO COMPLETES TGL !

430 BC - (6)
Buy 1 Scandinavian worker for 2 gpt & 80 g. Whip temple in Canton.
(I) Memphis is destroyed by Viking Archers, Cleo is down to 1 city.

410 BC - (7)
We found Macao.

390 BC - (9)
Ragnar knows Construction. We meet a Japanese settler pair that heads to the E end of the Eastern peninsula.

350 BC - (10)
We dispers a barb camp.

To the next leader:

SETTLING
* For further settlements keep in mind: Canton, Desert Junk & Xinjian are Junk cities. The other cities are not, so take care for minimal overlap.
* The two settlers are unmoved. I wanted to settle the Northern settler 1N (former Memphis location) or 1 NE, the latter is occupied by a Viking spear currently. Do not settle were the settler stands now (too many desert tiles)!
* The eastern settler: ATTENTION. There is a Jap settler pair 2 tiles away, direction ~ E, heading east. Three possible locations for this settler: Dyes here, Silk north or optimal city placement (OCP) location, south between Macao and Tiensin. I would go for the silks, killing the barb horse with our warrior and either settling 1E (barb horse location) or 2E (another OCP location, see below).
* Macao looks like FP location IMHO, so OCP settlement 5 tiles SE of Macao should be considered. Then eastern settler might better be placed 2E instead of 1E.
* The Vikings are going for Thebes. Check the location regularily, maybe they raze it, too. In that case we should fill the gap :D (maybe 2 SE of the current location, at the coast. Would be a strong coastal city supplying us with silks)
* 4 SE of Tatung and Canton, at the river, grabbing the Iron, looks interesting, too.

GENERAL
* ! MM Beijing for settler in 5 turns !
* Dyes hooked up this turn, so we can drop lux rate back to 0% (I forgot to do that).
* Hangchow can (and should) whip temple next turn. Shanghai could have use for a temple too, but could build it in four turns with MM, do not whip here.
* Keep building troops! We will need offensive units (horse, upgradeable to Rider!) soon to deter attacks. Currently, a war against e.g. the Vikings would hurt us.
* Ragnar has Construction, Monarchy is due for us in 6 or 7 turns. No tech trading happened during my turn.
* No per turn trades with Cleo!

I will post a screenshot and maybe a new dotmap tomorrow.

Good luck to the next player! :)

- Physicist

The file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-350BC.zip

EDIT: Summary added, concluding comments reworked.

Borealis: If Architect does not post a "got it" within the 24h after I posted the file, take the file without awaiting further notice from me.

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist
Architect >>> UP NOW
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)
(open)

530 BC: Viking invasion force moving through our territory to eventually capture Memphis some turns later.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-530BC.jpg

350 BC: Dotmap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-350BC-dotmap.jpg

I am short of time today, so just some short notes.
Note: I assume Macao as FP location

Red: grabs Dyes, coastal & fresh water
Orange: former Memphis location

Yellow: coastal, fresh water, Macao first ring
Green: grabs Silks, thus has priority. Coastal spot near Thebes preferred as permanent city.

Blue: Three Iroquis cities I want to have. :D
Macao first ring cities & grabbing Wine.
White: Beijing first ring city

With these we would have 14 permanent cities, which is approximately the number we are aiming at in Communism. These cities are strong under Monarchy and Communism, or grap important resources. All additional cities would be junk cities!

Any comments/discussion are very welcome.

- Physicist

I will jump in if you really need a player. I'm yet to try out Emperor, but I'm planning on playing the RBcivEpic on Emperor that is open right now. I feel I'm ready for the step up as I'm winning consistently on monarch and normally have few problems with it unless I get a really poor start.

Harleqin: Thank you for your interest. The difficulty here is probably beyond Emperor, especially in the late game, but as only few players are applying, I am more than willing to take you. Welcome!
I suppose you know about the way to go here? We are aiming at about 14 (optimal city number) permanent cities with minimal overlap for Communism, all other cities will be abandoned at the government change. We will lack commerce, thus will probably not research ourselves after the ancient age (no libraries etc.). You might want to read over the (unfortunately quite long) discussion on the first page; especially the comments by Charis are very good.
When we are talking about "5 turn settlers" in Beijing, the following is meant: after settler production, Beijing is at size 5. MM it for + 5 food per turn (fpt), to that we reach size 6 in 2 turns. At size 6, allow for one turn at + 4 fpt and then MM to + 3 fpt for two turns, always using the best tiles available (wheat, flood plains, Ivory plains). Then you have automatically collected 30 shields and Beijing will build the settler in the turn it grows to size 7. A lot of MM and one has to check Beijijng nearly each turn, but it is worth it.

Borealis proposed to let Harleqin play next. I second that. I will file Harleqin into the roster between Architect and me. Harleqin, it is your turn to take lead over the people of China!

Architect has not posted for several days although being up. I am concerned that something has happened to him. To keep the game going, Architect will be skipped until he posts a note. I will write him a PM with our best wishes.

@team: In my report, the initial comment "Monarchy ASAP" might be slightly misleading. As we are not religious, we should expect some turns of Anarchy during government change. Thus, we should settle the permanent cities, i.e. the dots on the dotmap, *before* revolution. First things first! :)

New Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
(Architect - skipped until further notice)
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)

I'll read the thread once more to get into the mood and then play and post a little later today. In other words. I've got it :)

And thanks for letting me in. I'll do my best not to disappoint you :)

Sorry guys, I am out of town dealing with a family illness. I will be available at the earliest on Monday.

Architect, great to hear from you! I wish your whole family a soon recovery to good health. (Ouch, that part of my vocabulary is REALLY rusty...)

Nevertheless, I would suggest to continue as planned. Architect is skipped until Monday.

Harleqin: I can only speak for myself, but if you do your best, there will be no way to disappoint me :) . I was always a supporter of "learning by doing" (with certain guidance ;) ). Hey, I am working at a university institute, learning is some kind of my "daily bread".
I hope you will enjoy the game!
EDIT: I like your home page! Very well made. But what happened to the Scientific trait on the "Traits" paige? I could not find it...

- Physicist

Roster
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up
Architect - skipped until Monday / further notice
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)

14 cities with minimal overlap…. Check! :cool:
Beijing MM for settler when it hits 7….Check! :cool:
Priority on luxuries…..Check! :cool:
Dotmap examined…. Check! :cool:
Priority on red, green and white dots… Check! :cool:
Flip risk at white dot…. Uncheck! :cry:
Ten turns…. Check! :cool:

Let’s rock. Incidentally I’m currently playing solo with the Chinese, so I know what they are good at.

The house of Harleqin seizes power in a bloodless coup and the son of a farmer takes a look at the lands. Being a farmer at heart he wants to grow. Let’s have a look at the current state of affairs.
We’re researching monarchy at -3 gpt, but have plenty of cash so no problems there. According to the minister in charge of science we’re progressing well due to generous founding. Nice. :goodjob:

The minister of war urges us to build more troops, but they will only eat our food and scare the cattle. Though we are weak we should be able to make do a little longer. Hey, I’m a farmer. It’s hard to work the land with arrows. The Japs are annoyed with us and we have no trade routes. Our culture is also nothing to speak of.

We have iron, horses and no less than FOUR luxuries. Very good. Only two techs from the next age and no cities appear ready to riot. Beijing managed to grow and build in two turns. Shanghai is working on a spear and has a barracks to produce veterans. Good again. Same goes for Nanking and Canton. Desert Junk is growing fast and building workers. About all it’s good for as it will get abandoned later. No buildings here then. The rest are checked and doing fine. I notice food is optimised several places, but with enough luxes and the added shields from growth, this is well.

Inherited turn (350 BC): Our elite warrior slaughters a barbarian horse so we can get to red dot but a Jap settler/spear is already there. A Scandinavian spear is blocking orange dot, but I’ll wait for them to move as the land here is not as good as what we should get and moving in another direction will give us overlap. Hmm… red dot is NOT on the coast. It is on two lakes. I’ll see what the Japs do.

IBT: Borders expand, a forest is chopped down, a worker is built…and the Japs settle Nagoya.

Turn 1 (330 BC): A new worker is ordered at Desert Junk and I MM it a bit to reduce waste. I order the settler toward the silks instead now as red dot is gone. I order the new worker south to help at Macao and the other start building toward the coming city at orange dot. I note Shanghai will get unhappy when it grows next and pulls it off Spearmen and onto a temple. A spear was just built there.

IBT: The Vikings want a RoP and an alliance against the Egyptians. Hmmm… I don’t think so. We lack offensive units. They are not interested in a pure RoP so I send them home again.

Turn 2 (310 BC): Settler built at Beijing. A new one is ordered up. Xinjian builds a barracks and start on a spearman. I note we lack spear for escorts. I normally REX, but I don’t want to invite the AI to attack, so I’ll wait for one. Anyang is settles at orange dot! Scandinavia has Construction. They are the only ones, but it is too expensive to get for brokering.

IBT: A barbarian horse dies on one of our warriors. Another avoid our spear/settler and moves against Nagoya.

Turn 3 (290 BC): A, a nice quiet turn. Only a little movement and a bit of MM to do.

IBT: The Vikings destroy the Egyptians. Who will be Ragnar’s next target? We survive a horse attack but one is approaching our furs in the north. The Vikings start the Great Wall.

Turn 4 (270 BC): A nearby archer spots the northern camp. The offensive horse in the north is slain at no loss to us.

IBT: We survive another horseattack. Otherwise things are calm in the East after the destruction of Egytp.

Turn 5 (250 BC): More MM at Beijing and a few other cities. A barbarian camp is destroyed by us near the silks. Optimal settlement here will give us some overlap with Tientsin though or far too much coast for my likening. Science set to +28 gpt and Monarchy is still here in one turn. I note that we want to delay a revolution.

IBT: Some Japanese swords move close to Macao. Are they headed for Nagoya or is Togu up to something?

Turn 6 (230 BC): We learn Monarchy and I start us on Currency. I like marketplaces. Another worker is built at Desert Junk. I call up Togugawa to hear about his plans for the future, but the little dude is annoying and insulting so I give up to learn much. We are weak compared to the Japs. We’d better watch out. There is only one spear in Macao. I consider whipping one at Xinijan to get reinforcements one turn faster but that is still three turns to arrive at the city and the Japs will be there next turn if they do attack. I build an embassy instead. They are working on a library and already have barracks, a temple and a granary as well as a wonder. I also note that he has only four cities, but he is still annoyed. I take a risk despite the dark clouds and send a settler/spear toward the white dot. The northern barbarian camp is crushed by our archers and they promote to veteran. Everybody already knows Monarchy.

IBT: The swords move away from Macao, but now I see Iro’s moving toward Tientsien… and the swords could be going that way. Future resource? The Iro’s start the Hanging Gardens.

Turn 7 (210 BC): Some more MM at Beijing to keep it going. Shantung is founded on the silks. We get the Japs down to cautious by selling them our territory map. The Iros get polite with us. I think the sun is breaking through the clouds.

IBT: Ahh… there is a barbarian camp down there. A barb horse kills a Iro archer in the jungle. The Japs start the Gardens.

Turn 8 (190 BC): Nice and quiet. A spear/settler starts moving east and I send a spear down to Macao for defence.

IBT: I have a hunch that the Vikings will pick on Greece next as they move an archer into their territory.

Turn 9 (170 BC): Temple built in Shainghai. Back on spear duty. I notice that neither of the white dots are optimal regarding overlap with Canton and Tonawanda, but in the end I go for the dot on the hill as it is defensible and will reduce overlap with Canton. It will waste a bonus grassland though. Perhaps it would be better to raze and move Tonawanda? :confused:

IBT: An Iro settler/spear moves southwest out of Tonawanda.

Turn 10 (150 BC): Nothing worth mentioning. Beijing MM’ed.

Be careful at White dot. It will be an aggressive settlement and annoy Ragnar enormously. Good luck to the next player. Hope I avoided any major weed. [pimp]


Here is the game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-150BC.ZIP)

Phys, it is because I haven't had time to finish the article. I'm still working on it. Have been working a lot lately and was overseas in the weekend. I'll do it after dinner tonight :)

Got it.

Harleqin: Looks like a very good set of well thought turns. By far not :smoke:.

Borealis: With four players again, we may go back to 10 turns per player.

But: STOP!!!! DO NOT SETTLE WHITE DOT RIGHT NOW ! I would like to have a permanent city there on the long run, but at the moment it would be :smoke: to settle there (as Harleqin noted in his report). Annoying Ragnar would bring us into great trouble. Sorry for not stating that clearly in my dotmap post.

I will download the file and have a look at the settling situation, but generally spoken, when all dots are settle (by whoever), start filling the gaps with junk cities. Build infrastructure in the permanent cities and rax+military in the other cities. We might want to take dots other civs settled on. :D

Anyway, let me repeat, everything is open to discussion, especially my dotmap... :)

EDIT (a long one):

OK, I had a short look at the file. Everything looks good :goodjob:, just one comment: If we agree on Macao as FP location, we should try to give Macao the best tiles available, even if we have to take them from Xinjian. Macao should grow *and* have high production to be able to start the FP ASAP.

Red dot is (more or less) settled by Nagoya. The question is, do we intend to capture that city (we would need these Dyes for trading only as Tientsin already supplies us with one Dye)? If not, we could settle another city later; at the moment, I do not see any good unsettled locations. (Salamanca looks nice, don't you think? :D ) Your opinions?

Two further subjects for discussion: When I look at our "permanent cities", I do not really like the location of Hangchow (IIRC we did not know the full map when settling there). It grabs the furs, but has a lot of desert to work on. A city 1N & 1NW (on the hill) would grab the furs and be much stronger. We might consider making Hangchow a junk city and settling there.
At the moment, we are planning for three strong coastal cities only under Communism, none of them on the western coast. Do you think we should plan for a city there?

Your comments/opinions? Do we agree on preparing for a war against the Iros to take some of there cities? And do we want to do that with or without Riders (saving up our GA later eras)?

- Physicist

Hangchow can be moved; it was settled to stop the Greeks from grabbing the furs as they had a settler pair in place. As far as the western coast, we should probably have one city there, but as close to our cultural boundaries as possible to minimize RoP trouble.

As far as war with the Iro's, remember that if they have horses (and I think they do), they'll have cheaper MW's available, which will slow down any major forays in their territory. With 3 attack, enough MWs can pose a major annoyance to our Riders, so if we're going to pull the war off, we need to a) deny the Iro's horses asap and b) have enough Riders to not only defeat defenders, but survive the occasional loss to counterattacks. We also need to keep Ragnar out of the mix- he and Hiawatha have had numerous alliances in the past against Cleo, and Ragnar wouldn't mind picking off one or two of our cities. On the other hand, allying with Ragnar would probably risk him grabbing too many cities that we want ourselves, and reduce any peace concessions we may get. With the AI able to break MA's and get away with it, any unique tech the Iro's may have would go to Ragnar first under those circumstances, reducing any trade advantage.

I'll play this evening, I think, and I'll look into the prospects for building up a reserve of Horsemen to up when we get Chivalry- it may be too early, as unit cost is not as cheap under Monarchy, but if it's possible I'll try to sneak a few vet horses/rax in the build process in my 10 turns.

Pre-turn 150 BC (0): Looking over the posts in this thread I agree that we are probably done with the settling period, and not to settle white dot. I'm going to send one of the settler pairs to the west coast, to ease travel time if necessary, probably near Hangchow. Lux tax is dropped, Currency sped by 1 turn at -7 gpt as the AI has been left alone to research far too long- looking at the log I see that they've had Construction for a while. We want to get trade potential, at least, before we revolt.

At size 8, with a temple and two MP, Shanghai has an equal number of happy and unhappy faces. Once we get Currency, I plan to revolt, as we have most cities settled that need to be settled ourselves without moving them, and cash-rushing marketplaces is viable as they'll pay for themselves shortly in our larger cities. Several cities that could be producing more shields with the same food output swapped to maximize production.

Foreign advisor tells me that Japan and the Iroquois can trade, and that we have several gpt deals ready to run out with Ragnar very shortly. Ragnar has Construction, iron, and 1 extra silk, but lacks horses. Hiawatha lacks iron and horses(!), and has no extra wines. Greece lacks Monarchy, and has no luxuries or resources currently hooked up, despite the Gems we see in his territory. Tokugawa has Construction, apparently has furs and iron, but lacks horses. He'll have to rush/build samurai from scratch if and when the time comes.

130 BC (1): Settler pair near white dot recalled and sent to Hangchow to possibly found a west coast city at some point. Settler pair near old Egypt sent to spy possible real estate in that area. Workers detailed to jungle clearance near Tatung. Viking unit movement, probably in search of barb camps. Warrior near Viking/Iro territory intersection spies furs in Iro cultural boundaries, that overlaps with Stockholm... white dot will be a cultural hotspot anyway, with the AI competing with each other there! Since everyone except us and Greece are in Monarchy, the amount of cash-rushed temples in that area, especially cheap Iro temples, makes a cultural war difficult. Warrior moves through territory- he'll be ordered out, but we want to reduce the map price by busting fog on the other side.

(IT): Our warrior is indeed asked to leave (politely, which is good as I'll remove him anyway). Japan starts the Great Wall.

110 BC (2): Several high-production cities start horsemen in preparation for rider output later. Beijing has a settler in it that will sit there for now as we have nowhere to send it; most cities are on the track for 3 military units, which will take advantage of the MP when we switch to Monarchy. Hangchow starts making workers.

90 BC (3): Setter + spear pair notices Thebes' cultural boundaries expanding already, and heads for non-overlapping spot to the north that will grab either wheat and cows, or horses and cows, as the leader who places the city wishes. Ragnar already has Currency... let me check- I don't think Japan or anyone else has enough to trade him for it, but he might give it away. We are going to get 46 gold and still get it in 1 turn.

(IT): We discover Currency, start Construction, and hear reports of a massive barbarian eruption near Hangchow...

70 BC (4): Somehow, the Japanese have Currency now, and still have their small amount of gold- they must have researched it as well. Construction is still too expensive, and Greece has enough cash to buy it from other AI at 3rd civ prices, so I choose to revolt and buy later. Anarchy! The domestic advisor predicts restoration of order in 5 turns... not great, but not awful either. Clowns and MM to slow growth mean most cities will remain content during the transition period.

50 BC (5): Massive stacks of horsemen appear, one scattering near Delphi, and one poised to attack Hangchow.

30 BC (6): Spear shifted from Shanghai to Hangchow, to protect against barb incursions as Hangchow only has a spear and a warrior.

(IT): The Viking archer in our territory near Hangchow redlines, but defeats one barb on his own, while defending against three attackers. Nice to see them killing each other off. :) Less happily, the Greeks appear to be making good progress on controlling the western seaboard with their city placements.

10 BC (7): More movement.

(IT): More battles against foreign enemies. The Vikings look like they want to snatch Hangchow while in Anarchy, moving an archer/warrior pair with a sword following near the city, while the barb horses pillage freely. Just wonderful. The archer near the southern barbs promotes to elite.

10 AD (8): Watching the Vikings with suspicion, I move a vet spear out of Canton, leaving two regulars to defend, to our iron source. There is a Viking spear right next to it, that could be difficult to dislodge, if Ragnar does declare on us.

(IT): The Vikings sneak-attack! With a warrior! Our spear at Hangchow promotes to elite, and is then knocked down to two hp by a barbarian horseman after suffering no wounds at Viking hands. :rolleyes:

30 AD (9): Decisions, decisions: I leave this round at the 9th turn in order to spur discussion as to the appropriate response to the Viking treachery. Greece can be brought into an alliance and give us Construction for Monarchy + 189 gold, the Iroquois and Construction for Currency and 236 gold, and Japan is too expensive at 237 gold + 5 gpt with nothing else out of the bargain. Hangchow and Nanking are the most threatened cities, and Canton is vulnerable to pillaging, with two spears stationed to avoid the nearby Viking spear taking our resources. We need to rush enough troops to survive the first turn, and then horses to take out the swords sent after us, until we're not paying horribly for peace. I think the alliance deal with Greece, or simply buying Construction from them and not allying, would be the best options. We need to get into the Middle Ages, and get to Chivalry so we can stop being pushed around by the AIs. Greece and Japan have The Republic. Japan is currently in the Republic while Greece is revolting- Ragnar probably has it already due to trading, but will stay in Monarchy due to his warlike nature. Hiawatha is in Monarchy and lacks both Currency and the Republic tech; we could possibly trade him Currency + some gold for Construction as an alternative to Alex.

I haven't done anything with this turn except to change production at Hangchow to walls that can be rushed to be due next turn for 16 gold, probably worth it to stop the sword on that mountain from killing our defenders. There's a warrior near Copenhagen that could pillage carefully, as the Vikings lack horses, as long as you keep it out of archer + road range. Watch out for the resources and workers near that Viking spear by Canton, and get rid of it ASAP to stop pillaging.


War with Scandinavia, 30 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-30ad.zip)

The problematic state of the Chinese Monarchy in 30 AD, on the first turn of the Viking invasion:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_ad30edit.JPG

The AI likes to attack a civ in anarchy. :mad: It *smells* the weakness...

I will have a short look at the file, but unfortunately lack the