"In Civ3, Communism is the worst of all governments". Maybe. But could you win an Emperor game using Communist government only in Industrial/Modern Age, even if you would not go for one of the military victory conditions but Spaceship Victory? Anyone interested to find out?

Civilization: China
Difficulty: Emperor
Map Size: Standard
Land Mass: Continents, 70% Water, all land parameters standard
Barbarians: Roaming
Opponents: Seven
No AI Respawning, Not Culturally Linked Starting Locations
Victory Conditions: All Enabled
Version: PTW 1.14f - patched to 1.21f after 1500 AD

Variant Rules:
1.) We may never become a Republic or Democracy.
2.) We have to acquire the tech 'Communism' as soon as possible. Or, in detail:
* The first Industrial Age tech we acquire must be 'Nationalism'.
* As soon as we have discovered 'Nationalism' and at least one other civ knows 'Communism', the next tech we aquire must be 'Communism' (however, we may finish a research project started earlier).
3.) When we have aquired the tech 'Communism', we must immediately revolt to Communist government. Afterwards, we may never change government again.
4.) We will only go for a Spaceship Victory.

Exploits as defined by RBCiv are not allowed. Exception: We are always allowed to purchase workers.

24 hours for confirmation, additional 48 hours for posting. 10 turns per round.

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin
Borealis
Architect
(open)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-4000bc.jpg

Yep, I'll join. Also I suggest that the first player plays 20 turns to get the game moving.

@Physicist

I'm glad to hear you've decided to do Epic 22. Best of luck but it looks pretty hard!!!

Also why are we abandoning the worker buying rule??? I don't mind too much but as Sullla showed in the first of the Potluck games at RBCiv, buying workers really cripples the AI. I don't mind if you think that the raised price in PTW takes care of that issue.

May I point out a mistake in your so far flawless English. Roster not Rooster. ;)

This sounds a lot like Epic 15 Soyuz, exept maybe not quite so hard.

Anyway I would like to say thanx to Physicistfor this variant!

JMansell

JMansell: Great that you confirmed! After our joint effort in "The2" it is a pleasure to try this Emperor challenge together with you.
Following the epic rules, I will not tell about Epic22 and my humble performance in playing it, but if you find the time, try it yourself. It is indeed a very interesting variant.

Thanks for the hints and questions. I will try to explain my reasons:

* Concerning "10 turns": Although I didn't mention it explicitly, it has been my intention to play 20 turns. :)

* Concerning "buying workers": Maybe I am wrong but I don't think that anyone joining a SG that follows the Epic rules really checks the Epic page and exactly reads through the whole tactics page. Especially the paragraph about buying workers is, well, quite long, and one of the most complicated rules (with different rules for different difficulty levels). As I think that the higher price for workers in PTW at least partially solves the "buying workers" problem and as I wanted to keep the rules as simple as possible, I decided to skip the rule completely.
The Epic's tactics page says "Emperor games should not buy any workers until the civ has had time to produce a third (they start with two), which will be at least 2500BC." If the team agrees not to buy any workers before 2500BC, this will be the perfect solution.
BTW, if anyone wants to (re-)read the Epic's tactic page, it is here:
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

* I only vaguely remembered the "Soyuz"-Epic as the one with the "one worker per city rule", so after reading your post I checked the Epics homepage and found out: Sirian's "government rules" indeed look quite similar to mine :( . Hm, well, I did not know/remember that, although I was sure that someone else would have tried that before. Maybe we will nevertheless be able find the one or other player who is interested in the game? :)

* Concerning my not so flawless English: Ehm, well, what can I say .... I used the wrong spelling intentionally to test your attention, JMansell ... ;)
(For other readers: Maybe I should mention that English is not my native language, so you cann exspekt manny tesstz off yur attenshion in my poasts. :D )
Thanks for the hint :) . I will correct the initial post.

Cock-a-doodle-doo! ;)

- Physicist

Physicist,

I don't see why you don't get started on your 20 turns while we wait for others to join. This will get the game started and hopefully, because it will move the thread to the top of the SG list when sorted by last post time, it will encourage others to join.

JMansell

This is a variant I have wanted to play on Deity so I'm up for the easy emperor win.. :)

Architect: Welcome! I had hoped to find the one or other player for that game, but drawing the interest of a RBE player was far beyond my expectations.
I have followed (as a lurker) some of the SGs you were playing, especially the great "The Sea is a harsh Mistress". Great performance! I am glad to have you on board.
As a side note: when I finally decided to register to this board (after lurking for more than one year), all the names I initially wanted to use as my user name were already in use by other people. Guess who "inspired" me to the name I finally chose. :)

JMansell: I wanted to wait for a third player. Now, with Architect having joined the team, I completely agree with your proposal and will play my turns. If RL allows for a late night gaming session (not completely sure yet), you can expect to read my report during tomorrow's breakfast.

Concerning the discussion about RBE's "Seed Corn" rule (possible restrictions on buying workers early in the game): As there were no further comments on that topic, I would suggest to allow all worker buys as stated in my first post.
Architect, if you disagree, please post a "veto"!

- Physicist

PS: This minute, Borealis has declared interest via PM, so one spot is reserved, but has to be confirmed.

EDIT: Physicist is UP, JMansell On Deck
One open spot left !

I'm still holding out hope for "Super Model" or "Coors Light Twin" to join this board soon in honor of my nic. :D Maybe winning with a communist government will do the trick...

As for the worker rules, I'll play however we want.

Couple of suggestions for this game:

1. If possible we may want to found second ring cities first to gain as much space as possible early on. A dense build will do us well too.

2. Early monarchy will be nice. We may want to target Pyramids (could be tough) Sistene and/or J.S Bach as they will help with happiness/growth problems from pop-rushing.

3. The Great Wall and Manhattan Project are instant GA triggers for us. Building the Pyramids and Sun Tzu/Leo would also trigger a GA. It might be wise to try and save our GA until the modern era if possible. If we do that then we'll want to avoid anything militaristic as Hoover is industrious and we know we'll get that. :)

Irrigate that wheat!

Who says communism is the worst? I frickin love it!

Originally posted by Architect
Couple of suggestions for this game:

1. If possible we may want to found second ring cities first to gain as much space as possible early on. A dense build will do us well too.

2. Early monarchy will be nice. We may want to target Pyramids (could be tough) Sistene and/or J.S Bach as they will help with happiness/growth problems from pop-rushing.

3. The Great Wall and Manhattan Project are instant GA triggers for us. Building the Pyramids and Sun Tzu/Leo would also trigger a GA. It might be wise to try and save our GA until the modern era if possible. If we do that then we'll want to avoid anything militaristic as Hoover is industrious and we know we'll get that. :)

Irrigate that wheat!

Architect: I am glad that you started the discussion about startegy. When you read my report, you will see that I tried to trigger that discussion, too. (I wrote the report before reading your post.)

On the other hand: Well, concerning the wheat... I made some, let's say, interesting decisions early on. Please, if you read my report and consider them :smoke: , feel free to tell me. If my suggestions, especially those to JMansell ("mine the wheat"), should be wrong in your opinion, please correct me. :)

To your other suggestions:

1. Concerning dense build: In communism lots of cities means lot of corruption. I would have suggested to reduce overlap as a long term strategy. Do you suggest to abandon cities later on?

2. I completley agree. Pyramids will be crucial for communism, although I have to admit that I have never tried to build the Pyramids in an Emperor game (TGL is no problem, but Pyramids seems to be hard to get).

3. I agree that a modern age GA would be nice. I would try to avoid the militaristic wonders and get (maybe capture?) the Pyramids. On the other hand, I don't think a middle age GA would cripple us, and we might come into a situation where we have to use the riders.

- Physicist

EDIT: typos

First, I would like to thank all of you for the interest in the game. I hope that we will enjoy it!

Summary of my report

* Beijing founded
* two civs (Iroquois & Scandinavia) met
* some trading (we aquired Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial and researched Pottery)

Now for a more detailed report:

Where to place the capitol?

In the following paragraphs I have collected my thoughts about the starting locations and have tried to explain my intentions why I moved worker and settler. It is not necessary to read that, but if you think my moves were :smoke: , it might be an interesting.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-4000bc-start1.jpg

On the screenshot you can see the starting location and what I had tried to guess from the surrounding terrain under fog. The quality of the screenshot is worse than the ingame picture, so you will have to believe me :).
There seem to be mountains and grass to the south, plains to the NW and mainly desert to the NE. Very interesting is the tile under the fog 1N & 1NE. I am ot able to not distinguish whether it desert or plain, but there seems to be some kind of resource on it. Maybe ivory again?

What can we say about our starting location? Not too bad! There is a wheat grass nearby and a floodplain seems to be reachable. Looks like a worker/settler factory! Also two ivory tiles are within the city radius. There is no bonus grass visible, so production might be quite low in despotism. When we start working the mountains under a more advanced government, the production will rise considerably, provided we have enough irrigated grass in reach for food production. Early high food (settler factory), later production boost (wonder/unit building). Not the worst basis for a capitol!

Should we move our settler? The mountain tiles and the wheat grass are ruled out for obvious reasons. The grass W is also a suboptimal choice as we would loose access to the floodplain. The three remaining possibilities are
(1) plains NW (2) ivory plains N (3) ivory plains NE.
(1) & (2) would mean loosing the "known" grass/grass forest file to the SE. I don't really like (2) & (3) as we loose access to the very powerful wheat tile in the first 10 turns (well, founding on a luxury means immediate access to it, but we are industrious. Roads can be build fast). Additionally, we would move into the direction of what I assume to be desert. (1) seems to be possible location from that point of view. Hm.

From what we know/guess now, the starting location seems to be the best choice.

Where to move our worker? I would like to work the wheat tile asap. However, we will not gain much terrain info from moving the worker there. I consider moving the worker in one of the nortern directions (NW, N, NE). With such a move we could gather more information about the possible alternate capitol locations mentioned above. However, moving 1NW seems to be suboptimal as we would loose worker turns (in any case, we do not want to work the standard plains NW first).
Moving 1 N seems to be a viable option, however. With the three surplus food from the (unworked) wheat tile, our capitol will grow in four turns to size two and will then have to use one unworked tile in any case. Thus, the damage done by irrigation the ivory plain first is small. Plus, we will have access to the ivory very soon. We would only loose worker turns if we decided to settle N.

Thus, I decide to move our starting worker 1N.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-4000bc-start2.jpg

We learn that there is indeed a lot of plains to the NW. Mountains, a hill and a flood plain to the NE. I conclude that 1 NE is a promising city location, gaining access to flood plain & hill.

We have two quite equivalent locations to choose from, the starting location and the tile 1NE. By moving to the latter, we would gain access to
* the plain forest on the starting location,
* 1 floodplain (= bonus) and
* 1 hill (= better than mountain),
* and we would found on the ivory (the last one is not crucial here).

However, we would loose access to
* the grass forest tile,
* 1 mountain and
* the unknown tile (1W & 1SW),
* and we will not be able to work the wheat before our first border expansion. However, the difference between a naked flood plain (2 food per turn) and a naked wheat grass (3 food per turn) is one food per turn, meaning growth after 5 instead of 4 turns. Hm again.

After long consideration (you would probably declare me mad if you knew how long ;) ), I decide to move the settler 1 NE and found Beijing there.


Report on the years 4000 BC to 3000 BC:

4000 BC (0) - worker moved N, settler moved NE

3950 BC (1) - Beijing is founded (hey, there's an additional hill within reach), worker starts irrigating and later building road on the ivory plains. We begin training a warrior.
We start researching Pottery at 100% sci. We could make Beijing a strong settler/worker factory even without a granary, but, nevertheless, we might want to build a granary here, e.g. as we might decide to mine some of the plains in order to increase shield output, thus loosing some fpt. 5 surplus food per turn combined with a granary is very powerful...

3700 BC (6) - our worker starts improving the flood plain
(I) our first warrior completes, a second warrior is ordered

3650 BC (7) - Astronomical observations of the Cinese mages show that we are located on something called northern hemisphere, near something else called the equator. Although being confused by these stange words, our warrior decides to explore south.

3500 BC (10) - Quite much happened interturn: our borders expand (zzz), we complete Pottery, and our scout meets FOUR Iroquois warriors :eek: , only some tiles from our border!

3450 BC (11) - Haiwatha of the Iroquis greets us cautiously. He knows the secrets of Ceremonial Burial and Bronze Working, but lacks Warrior code. Both of us have 10g.
He would be willing to trade us Bronze Working for WC & 6 gpt (if we would go back to 10% sci, we would make +7 gpt). I don't like this offer as it would leave us close to bankruptcy for the next 20 turns (of course this was not his initial offer, I tried to get the best deal possible. Initially, he wanted to have our 10g in addition).
Another possibility would be to buy Ceremonial Burial for WC, 2 gpt & 1g, allowing us to continue our research on Bronze Working with the loss of one turn only (due in 14 turns). Smoking Haiwatha's excellent weed in the ceremonial peace pipe, I decide to take that deal. Haiwa goes to polite.
Now I decide to gamble a little bit: I start researching Alphabet (due in 25 turns). OK, we could research Bronze (due in 14 turns), riding on Haiwa's coattails, but Alphabet might allow some trading. Maybe, maybe not.

3400 BC (12) - our second warrior starts exploring north.
Haiwa knows Mysticism, and fell back to cautious!

3400 BC (12) - a Scandinavian scout appears near our borders from E-SE
I meet annoyed King Ragnar and am glad to find out that he lacks Masonry. He is willing to give 2g & Bronze Working. Ragnar already has two cities.

3150 BC (17) - our third warrior completes. He will stay at Beijing for MP/protection. Our first 'scout' has reached the borders of Salamanca, always shadowed by a mini-SoD of three Iroquis warriors.
Haiwa knows the Wheel.

3000 BC (20) - our northern scout finds cultural borders of an unknown civilization. Our southern scout finds a coast.

Comments to the next player(s):

To JMansell:
*the irrigation of the second flood plain was finished in the last turn, but tile is not worked by the people of Beijing.
*EDIT: I would suggest to mine the bonus wheat instead of irrigating. We could still make 5 surplus food per turn by working the two flood plains additionally to the wheat. And we need shields more urgently than food! See below & next posts.
*we should not allow Beijing to fall back below size 3 or even size 4 in order to keep a certain level of shields per turn. Working the forest might be an option, too.
*Alphabet due in 10 turns, probably less when Beijing grows.
*unknown foreign borders two tiles north of northern scout
* EDIT: please read the discussion in the next to post

* General remark: One of the most crucial points in this variant will be intelligent city placing. (Architect, you are a far more experienced player than I am, so please correct me if I should be wrong. Well, actually anyone is free to correct me. :) ) Under communism, the amount of corruption will be determined by the number of our cities ONLY. Thus, we should try to build few large cities instead of many small ones. As a consequence, we should try to avoid overlap between cities if somehow possible. If we decide to go for a dense build, we might have to abandon cities later on. Furthermore, we should try to avoid building cities in terribly bad terrain (with few cities, each single city counts).
As soon as we have a better idea of our surrounding territory, we might consider preparing a dotmap and discussing possible locations.

* Please upload the files in the usual format 'Phys1-jjjjBC.zip', jjjj meaning the game year and BC standing for BC or AD.

Long report, have to get some sleep now. Will post a screenshot from 3000 BC tomorrow.

Good luck to you, JMansell!

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-3000BC.zip

JMansell: UP
Architect: on deck

The honest truth is I've never done more than briefly switch to communism as I have a strong distaste for the whip and its happiness effects. My understanding of how corruption works in a "communal" form of government is it is equalized across all cities but I don't know how much the optimal city number plays into overall corruption.

I was thinking a tight dense sprawling civ with most cities maxing at 13 would be most effective but your idea of highly spaced no overlap cities might be the correct way to play it. I don't have time to follow the Epics too much and so if there was a communist epic and this was the general conscensus I would go with that. I just can't help but feel there is an optimal way to get the most out of communism with a tightly packed empire, tons of workers (to replace the whipped ones), and diligent timing of the whipping.In any case, we can always add additional cities to a highly spaced build.

Irrigation of the wheat allows us at size 4 to work both ivory for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 12 commerce. With it mined we have to work the flood plain too for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 11 commerce. Also when we are going from 5-6-7 producing settlers, an irrigated wheat will allow us 2 turn MM food production back up to 6 by working both flood plains + IW and then 3 turn completion of a settler for 5 turn settlers. All of this assumes working a mined hill and the forest. By not irrigating the wheat ASAP (I don't think I would have moved where you did but the result was very good) we are a at least a pop point behind where we could be. I think we would be size 4 now and on our way to size 5 with the irrigated wheat. If you still have the original save you could go back and try it. I'm willing to chop down trees with game to get 4 food in depostism. Getting it for "free" on a wheat is a no brainer for me.

We need a granary ASAP in that city too btw. Keep the next warrior home and then build a granary. I don't think we are going to get the pyramids because we don't have enough shield production. Not a big deal.

Another long post...

Originally posted by Architect
The honest truth is I've never done more than briefly switch to communism as I have a strong distaste for the whip and its happiness effects.

Actually, the same is true for me, for exactly the same reasons. That's why I wanted to play this variant.

My understanding of how corruption works in a "communal" form of government is it is equalized across all cities but I don't know how much the optimal city number plays into overall corruption.

I was thinking a tight dense sprawling civ with most cities maxing at 13 would be most effective but your idea of highly spaced no overlap cities might be the correct way to play it. I don't have time to follow the Epics too much and so if there was a communist epic and this was the general conscensus I would go with that. I just can't help but feel there is an optimal way to get the most out of communism with a tightly packed empire, tons of workers (to replace the whipped ones), and diligent timing of the whipping.In any case, we can always add additional cities to a highly spaced build.

"My understanding of how corruption works in a "communal" form of government is it is equalized across all cities". That's exactly why I proposed to build few size 20+ powerhouses instead of many densely built size 13 cities. Let me explain: under normal governments, there are basically two parameters influencing the corruption level of a city: distance from the capitol and "number"/ranking of the city. Let's ignore the former for a minute. Then corruption is determined in the following way: the game creates a ranking of all cities, making the capitol #1, the second closest #2, etc. The amount of corruption of each city is calculated using a certain formula which gives the #1 city zero corruption, and each city with higher a slightly higher corruption, especially when the rank of the city is higher than the "optimal city number". Under these government, we have a strong core of cities with low corruption and a rising level of corruption in the outer cities with higher rank. Adding a city to a larger empire creates a highly corrupt city (1 spt, 1gpt), both does not influence the corruption level in your core. All of you know that.

Now assume the same situation under communism: The game goes through the exactly same procedure to determine corruption, ranking the cities and calculating individual corruption levels for each city. But then, the corruption level is equalized across all cities, as you stated in your post, Architect. If you now add a city to your empire, it will be ranked very high, meaning a high corruption level, so after the equalizing the overall corruption level will be higher. On the other hand, the additional city, being hopelessly corrupt under other governments, will be as productive as all you other cities. In the end, you did not gain in overall spt/gpt by adding the new city, as although you get some shields and and gold from the new city, as those are "eaten up" the higher overall corruption in your other cities. You might even have less civ-wide production/income.

Or, using an extreme cases as an example. Assume an empire consisting of one city only. Independent of government choice, the corruption will exactly be the same (communisms "equalizing" does not change a thing). Now, assume an empire with an infinite number of cities. Under monarchy etc., you will have a productive core and completely corrupt outer cities (anyone who ever aimed at a domination victory will agree with that). Under corruption, with an infinite number of cities, ALL of you cities will be completely corrupt. So, communism works well with smaller empires.

IMHO, that's the reason why communism is so unpopular. People go for Domination, do much warmongering, and think "communism is a war government, let's try it." However, controlling 1/2 of the world with millions of cities, the overall corruption level goes to, say, 50%, and the former powerhouse Kyoto (or whatever), currently building ToE, looses half of its production. Then people of course say "communism sucks". I think it might be quite strong if you prepare for it correctly and if you do not aim at domination, and I want to find out with this game. :)

Thus, I would suggest to build as few cities as possible, probably somewhere around the optimal city number (we can go slightly higher as courts and police stations reduce corruption created by the city number).

Irrigation of the wheat allows us at size 4 to work both ivory for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 12 commerce. With it mined we have to work the flood plain too for 3 food, 5 sheilds, and 11 commerce. Also when we are going from 5-6-7 producing settlers, an irrigated wheat will allow us 2 turn MM food production back up to 6 by working both flood plains + IW and then 3 turn completion of a settler for 5 turn settlers. All of this assumes working a mined hill and the forest. By not irrigating the wheat ASAP (I don't think I would have moved where you did but the result was very good) we are a at least a pop point behind where we could be. I think we would be size 4 now and on our way to size 5 with the irrigated wheat. If you still have the original save you could go back and try it. I'm willing to chop down trees with game to get 4 food in depostism. Getting it for "free" on a wheat is a no brainer for me.

We need a granary ASAP in that city too btw. Keep the next warrior home and then build a granary. I don't think we are going to get the pyramids because we don't have enough shield production. Not a big deal.

Architect, with a lousy player like me this might not be the "easy Emperor win" you supposed to get in your first post. ;)

Well, I have probably thought too much about future potential and not enough about early growth. I considered my decision for a long time mainly for this reason. I agree that we are one pop point behind where we could be. Even without playing a shadow I know that we lost 16 food in the first 20 turns by moving the settler. :(
Concerning settler production: I think that in the given situation (now, 3000 BC) mining the wheat is an option as well as irrigating. You simply trade 1 shield for 1 food. With the mined wheat, I can do the same you do with the irrigated wheat, even gaining one commerce by more extensive use of the bonus ivory plains instead of standard forests. However, I would have to make more extensive use both flood plains, resulting in a higher chance for disease (IIRC). In my eyes, that's the main reason why you are right with irrigating the wheat, lower chance for disease.

Nevertheless, I was unable to follow your "5 turn settler" calculations: My calculation was the following (I already assume an irrigated wheat):

size 5: working IW, both flood plains, one ivory plain, one forest
=> 5 food per turn, growth in 2 (here I can follow)
=> 4 shields per turn (only city center, ivory plain & forest produce shields), thus 8 shields for the settler only

size 6: here you want growth in 3 turns, which means 22 shield in 3 turns or nearly 8 spt. I do not see how this should be able at size 7, with such low shield terrain. For example: Even at 3 fpt, working wheat, 1 flood plain, two forest/hill and both ivory plains I only calculate 7 spt. And for the third turn, you would have to shift one of the ivorys to the second flood plain for 4 fpt, resulting in 6 spt only. Overall (8 + 14 + 6) shields = 28 shields

Maybe you could explain to me where the mistake is in calculations, Architect?

Things would comletely change if we would go 6-7-8 for settler production, then I would understand the calculations. (But 6-7-8 is quite large for an ancient city IMHO. Even with 2 MP and the ivory, the fifth citizen will be born uncontent.)
Also for settler production in 6 turns I could easily understand the calculation.

So, finally, my conclusions after all this discussion, meant as suggestions to JMansell:
Please irrigate the wheat next and, until that is done, let Beijing work the second flood plain to speed up our growth. We will need two "2 spt" tiles in the near future, so you might consider mining one of the hills or one of the plains next to the river (higher commerce). And please start a granary asap (I personally would allow for the completion of our forth warrior this turn, however, as we could use him as scout now and as MP in some turns. Note, he will be our fifth troop, so we will have to pay for him.)

Good luck again, JMansell.

- Physicist

PS: I don't think we would have a chance to get the Pyramid, either.

The screenshots:

3450 BC: Here we meet the Iroquois warband. When our warrior headed south (towards their capitol), the mini-SoD of three warriors turned around and followed our scout. No idea why... :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-3450BC.jpg

Our map in the year 3000 BC. We have found Salamanca to the south and a yet unknown civilization to the north, near our scouting warrior. The Vikings are probably located somewhere to the west.
Note the gems some tiles SW of Beijing and the MANY bonus wheat flood plains around (I counted three). There is wine near our south scout, too.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-3000BC.jpg

Borealis has confirmed. Welcome!
We now have a roster of four players. One open spot left.

Roster:
Physicist
JMansell02 >>> UP
Architect >>> on deck
Borealis
(open)

- Physicist

I wish you guys well in this game - it should be fun for all involved if you've not used Communism extensively before. I also want to mention two points...

First, regarding five turn settlers and shield count. I didn't count it out, but Physicist, are you counting the extra shields you get *on* the turn that your city grows? The food calculation and city growth is handled before the shields are counted, meaning that if you micromanage food vs shield tiles, running 'high food' on the turn the city is expected to grow will mean the gov'ner will pick some extra shields for the next tile to work and you will get those applied that turn.

Second, regarding empire size... you have two basic 'good' choices with Communism. First, if you've tried Communism at all you've seen what a typical non-optimal choice does (ruin your civ :P). Playing the game 'normal' or as you would under Republic and changing to Communism because of war weariness is ruinous. Communism gives you two things, and these form the basis of the two good paths: communal corruption, and pop-rushing.

A: Small(ish) number of cities, at or not far above OCN, with little overlap between them. Distance can be as far apart as you like, even on other continents. This makes the best advantage of the communal corruption. The formula for HOW much corruption is highly dependent on empire size. This approach chooses city sites for their strategic resources or luxuries, and their strategic value (choke points, beachhead on another continent, etc)

B: A truly huge number of cities. Sprawling, all over the placed, ICS or dense spacing. Forget corruption, your entire empire will be wickedly corrupt. But you can pop-rush *everything* until the cows come home. No city should be (or will stay) above size 6, and few city improvements. SunTzu and Pyramids are just plain uber for this path. This is like extended despotic pop rushing except you don't have the resource penalty. Nothing but a temple in all but a few cities, as you can't afford the upkeep! All your cities will be producing 1 gold income, but the massive number of cities can support a huge army.

Based on what I know of you guys, path A is more your style :D

The problem is how to get there! You might consider a dotmap where your 'real' cities are spacing nicely apart with no overlap, and where you fill in the gap or have fishing villages. Consider those 'temporary' cities, build no/few buildings there and use them purely for things like settlers, workers, catapults (no rax req'd). When you hit communism, disband them. Then go to Monarchy (you do NOT want to get used to commerce bonuses of Republic ;P )

Along the way, don't over-build buildings, but do put a courthouse in *every* permanent city, and later a mandatory police station. If you can snag Pyramids or Sun Tzu, or Bach's, so much the better (all bldg-eliminators), also Smiths. If you don't build it, make it a part of your plans to capture them at some point. As you get closer to communism, make sure your further away cities are irrigated and good sized. They'll be uselessly corrupt right now, but will instantly become productive after the switch, so get them large asap.

I probably would build no libraries/univ, do none of my own research, get some ancient war. Horses are of course a great choice for China, and a large campaign once you get riders. Lots of workers too, and improve even those far away cities, even though it 'seems' a waste of time early.

Good luck comrades! :hammer:
Charis

Charis, thanks for the help and for the good wishes. :)

First, regarding five turn settlers and shield count. I didn't count it out, but Physicist, are you counting the extra shields you get *on* the turn that your city grows? The food calculation and city growth is handled before the shields are counted, meaning that if you micromanage food vs shield tiles, running 'high food' on the turn the city is expected to grow will mean the gov'ner will pick some extra shields for the next tile to work and you will get those applied that turn.
Oh, you are right, that was my mistake, and that's where the two missing shields came from. I feel very :smoke: ...

Second, regarding empire size... you have two basic 'good' choices with Communism. First, if you've tried Communism at all you've seen what a typical non-optimal choice does (ruin your civ :P). Playing the game 'normal' or as you would under Republic and changing to Communism because of war weariness is ruinous. Communism gives you two things, and these form the basis of the two good paths: communal corruption, and pop-rushing.

A: Small(ish) number of cities, at or not far above OCN, with little overlap between them. Distance can be as far apart as you like, even on other continents. This makes the best advantage of the communal corruption. The formula for HOW much corruption is highly dependent on empire size. This approach chooses city sites for their strategic resources or luxuries, and their strategic value (choke points, beachhead on another continent, etc)

B: A truly huge number of cities. Sprawling, all over the placed, ICS or dense spacing. Forget corruption, your entire empire will be wickedly corrupt. But you can pop-rush *everything* until the cows come home. No city should be (or will stay) above size 6, and few city improvements. SunTzu and Pyramids are just plain uber for this path. This is like extended despotic pop rushing except you don't have the resource penalty. Nothing but a temple in all but a few cities, as you can't afford the upkeep! All your cities will be producing 1 gold income, but the massive number of cities can support a huge army.

Based on what I know of you guys, path A is more your style


Well, first I should mention that I am fond of long term optimization and I do not really like closely spaced cites (2 tiles or less between cities). However, this should not be the criteria. However, we want to aim for a Spaceship Victory, and I would prefer not to poprush the whole spaceship :aargh: ;) . Thus, please path A here. :)

The problem is how to get there! You might consider a dotmap where your 'real' cities are spacing nicely apart with no overlap, and where you fill in the gap or have fishing villages. Consider those 'temporary' cities, build no/few buildings there and use them purely for things like settlers, workers, catapults (no rax req'd). When you hit communism, disband them. Then go to Monarchy (you do NOT want to get used to commerce bonuses of Republic ;P )

Who wants to go to Republic? NOBODY!
Otherwise, I concur.

Along the way, don't over-build buildings, but do put a courthouse in *every* permanent city, and later a mandatory police station. If you can snag Pyramids or Sun Tzu, or Bach's, so much the better (all bldg-eliminators), also Smiths. If you don't build it, make it a part of your plans to capture them at some point. As you get closer to communism, make sure your further away cities are irrigated and good sized. They'll be uselessly corrupt right now, but will instantly become productive after the switch, so get them large asap.

I probably would build no libraries/univ, do none of my own research, get some ancient war. Horses are of course a great choice for China, and a large campaign once you get riders. Lots of workers too, and improve even those far away cities, even though it 'seems' a waste of time early.

Well, you are pointing at exactly the strategy/tactics I was thinking about. Beginning with Smith, we *must* (and will :D ) get all later wonders (except Suffrage). From the ancient/middle ages, I would rate Pyramids the most important wonder, followed by SunTzu's (we might not need baracks in all of our cities if we divide the building tasks intelligently, like "city1 builds infantry, city2 two battelships, city3 artillery" all the time) and the "happiness" wonders. Pyramids is the wonder I would go to war for, ancient war (for leaders) and later war (capturing the city it was built in), even triggering our GA with riders if necessary. Unfortunately I do not really see a chance to build the Pyramids ourselves.

We should build only the most important city improvements. We will probably never research techs after Alphabet (lone scientist (me ! :) ) is of course always an option), so library etc is a waste of shields and gold, markets etc are our best friends. Early we will try to keep up techwise by 2-for-1 buys and, let's face reality, last civ buys. Later we might send out our vet spies the one or other time. We will be quite small and terribly lack culture, so we should have a (modern) military at hand to deter or react on possible AI attacks.

The only thing I am not sure about is whether we should delay our golden age until the modern age, skipping SunTzu's (as Architect proposed out), or whether we should make intensive use of our mighty riders in order clear territory for the one or other well placed "colony" (city) on key resources. But we do not have to decide on that, yet. Probably the AI will decide that for us. :)

- Physicist

I agree on probably not being able to hand-build the Pyramids- we'll have to either get a leader or take them from another civ.
As far as 'skipping' Sun Tzu's, we might be able to pull that off if we are on a large island/smaller continent and own it, only having to face the occasional AI invasion. If we're stuck on a large landmass, the sheer amount of gold saved by not having to have barracks everywhere to produce units to defend against invasion might make grabbing it our best option. If we wait on the GA, we can grab Hoover or wait until the Internet comes along to speed our space race victory, depending on the circumstances.

If we decide to skip Sun Tzu, I'd advise grabbing the Great Library from someone in the late Ancient or early Middle Ages, to help keep us in pace with the AI until they build universities. This will give us a good chance to grab Smith's and let us save cash for later tech. With two expansionist AI that we know of, there's a good chance they'll get Literature from a hut, rather than leaving it to research after Monarchy/Republic as their usual priorities seem to run.

@Borealis: I don't think that we should make an effort to self-build TGL (I'd prefer do build an early FP), but if we can easily capture it, why not. It makes life so much easier :) . However, when talking about TGL we should keep in mind that intensive trading with and gpt payments to the AIs improve foreign relations and reduce the chance for an unwanted war. Again, I suppose that the AI will decide that for us.
BTW, I am sure that we will get Smith's even without TGL! :D

@JMansell: Unfortunately, your 24 hours for confirmation are over. I am sorry, but you are skipped.

@Architect: You are up. To let the game get some momentum, you -as the second player- may play 20 turns instead of 10, decision is up to you.

- Physicist

JMansell: skipped
Architect: >>> UP
Borealis: >>> on deck

Got it.

hi guys, i just wanted to point out some issues on communism from my own experience in epic 15.

Courthouses are uber-important. Even in the capitol. Don't build them too soon, though, as the gpt upkeep can be crucial in the early game, where fourteen cities with courthouses means 14gpt less income. But just as your dawning on the Industrial era, that's the time to start getting the courthouses going, cash-rushing (under Monarchy) just before the rebellion wherever possible, so they're in place when you make the leap.

The only thing I'm fuzzy on with Communism is if the Forbidden Palace gives any benefit at all. If our (mutual) assumption on how the overall corruption is calculated (before its even distribution), then the FP does help, as you have a low-corruption second core, with less overall corruption added to the picture. It'd be nice to do some tests with communism and the FP to see how it works, exactly.

Fourteen is the optimal city number for standard map. Fourteen worked great for me in epic 15. It was kinda weird, having 2/3 of the continent deserted and littered with railways from the remnants of my foes, just be sure to have guards on your workers in that situation to prevent barb rapings, as even barbs have infinite moves on rails in neutral territory.

I *may* join up on this one, if the time permits, its too soon to say. But if I do I will definatley try to let you know before the game goes too far.

falsfire: If you decide to join, you will be welcome. Just drop a note. :)

Concerning corruption and FP. I have checked alexman's great corruption thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19922) . There alexman states that FP indeed has an influence on the corruption level you face under communism. In the modifer for the optimal city number Fn there is a parameter g. alexman notes for this parameter
"g : 0.1 if Republic or Democracy, 0.25 if in Communism with a FP, 0.0 otherwise".

In the next days, I will try to understand the formula and calculate the corruption levels we have to expect for different city numbers and city improvements.

- Physicist

3000BC(0) - I leave everything as is.

2950BC(1) - We meet the Greeks. They lack pottery and have alphabet. I can trade the pottery for 20g and do. I begin construction of a granary in Bejing. 7 turns to alphabet.

2850BC(3) Our wheat is irrigated. Granary in 13 turns.

2800BC(4) We meet egypt who also lack pottery. We trade alphabet for pottery. I set us to 40 turn writing for now. I trade Alphabet and 6 gold for the Wheel with the Iroquois. I trade alphabet for 33gold to vikings. No other deals are possible at this time.

IT: Egypt and Greece are at war.

2750BC(5) I trade The Wheel and 45g for 2 Greecian workers.

2590BC(9) We are size 5 now.

2470BC(12) Viking have iron working.

2350BC(15) I trade the Wheel and 80gold for Iron Working.

2310BC(16) Our main improvements are complete around Bejing. 3 turns for a spearman and size 7 and we can start cranking settlers.

2190BC(19) Barbians may attack Bejing next turn.

2150BC(20) We defend Bejing just fine and then lose one of our scouts to a barbarian.. We are almost at tech parity save Mysticism. I see Gems, Wines, Dyes, and Furs within our initial city count so we will eventually secure 5 luxuries without trade.. No time for dotmap sorry plus someone else should practice. Oh.. Iron and horses are within our grasp too.

2150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-2150bc.zip)

Got it.

OK, I will try to make a dotmap this afternoon (means ~ 4 p.m. GMT or noon for you).

- Physicist

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-2150bc-dotmap.jpg

(second post to avoid left-right scrolling when reading the text)

First settler should settle at red dot, where the road goes to. This city is intended to produce units for protection of our settlers.
Second level priority are yellow, green & white dot (they grab the strategic resources). The rest later.

Comments to the dots in detail:

* Note that I did not plan an agressive settlement near the wine tiles. Actually, I like the Iroquois city Grand River (wine, river, many bonus grass and hill including gold) and would like to take it from Haiwa sooner or later. Thus, I have already 'included' it into the dotmap as is it where one of our cities to reduce overlap.

* We lack map info to the SW. From what we know now, I would see white dot as junk city (no improvements, abandon before Communism) just to grab Iron and gems asap. At the moment, I fear that there might be too may many mountains there. Might change with more map info, so keep this warrior exploring. Light blue and dark blue are suggestions for permanent cities that will secure these resources in the distant future.

* One of the two green dots should grab the horses. Light green is a semi-agressive settlement towards Sparta (1 tile overlap). Dark green is a more conservative solution, but if Alex settles light green, we are in trouble as then the horse is gone and we might have to go to war against Hoplites in order to get it.
If we settle light green, then grey dot might be an intersting city location.

* I do not really like orange dot: 1 tile overlap w/ yellow, 2 w/ dark purple. Without orange, dark purple could move towards the river. Dark purple would be a powerfull coastal city.

* There are two light purple dots, one to the very east and one to the very NW. Those are idea for grabbing the luxes over there, but I have not really thought about those. We lack map info there, too.

* Note that there is much room for junk cities in the N and SE of Beijing, although I didn't plot those.

I am short of time at the moment, so no more dots... We sould be able to start a discussion with that map.

@Borealis: You will only be able to settle the first city, so for the other dots we will have more time for discussion.(If anyone disagrees with my choice for the first city, post soon!) EDIT: That's not the full truth of course as you will have to send out our second settler, too. The settler will be finished in 7 turns, so you might even be able to found the second city.
Keep in mind to micromanage Beijing for settlers in 5 turns (5 food at size 5 for growth in two turns) as Architect has described in an earlier post.
Good luck! :)

I cracked up on your earlier comment regarding having the "one scientist" for research :lol:

And now you confirm your nature!
Plain circles aren't enough, you made those using
Gaussian distributions, as if a quantum 1P electron orbital map!

The map looks decent, although they seem a bit sparse and some cities are somewhat far from the capital. That's mostly a matter of preference. In any case, pump those settlers out and grab some land!

:P
Charis

Originally posted by Charis
I cracked up on your earlier comment regarding having the "one scientist" for research :lol:

And now you confirm your nature!
Plain circles aren't enough, you made those using
Gaussian distributions, as if a quantum 1P electron orbital map!


Charis: :lol: "Lots of giant atoms were found on the Chinese land. Maybe this is a good omen and we should build our cities there?" ;)


The map looks decent, although they seem a bit sparse and some cities are somewhat far from the capital. That's mostly a matter of preference.

In a normal game, I would have planned for a denser build. Here I had "Communism" and minimal overlap in mind when "placing the cities". Of course we could fill the gaps with junk cities.
Nevertheless, I am glad for any corrections. Don't hesitate moving the dots around.

- Physicist

2150BC (Inherited Turn): Nothing to change. Beijing is in good shape, and the settler is due in 2 turns.

2110 (1) Workers run away from barb near red dot.

(IT) Disease hits Beijing.

2070(2) Beijing builds settler; sends it to red dot.

(IT) Disease strikes Beijing.

2030(3) Diplocheck reveals that everyone has Mysticism- if we go for Monarchy, we should be able to buy it easily when the time comes. Alex lacks any cash, but is Annoyed with us- buying it also might stop a war if he covets our treasury. He will sell it for 68 gold, probably the best price as he's commercial, but I hold off on possibly buying something more useful. The Vikings and the Iroquois are building the Oracle.

1990(4) Shanghai founded on red dot, dispersing barb camp.

1950(5) Warrior to east finds Japan, who lacks Masonry or Alphabet. He has 27 gold, not quite enough to justify selling tech yet. The spear in Shanghai heads back to Beijing, as it needs more defense from the nearby barbs.

(IT) Barb pillages floodplain tile and ivory tile near us, not preventable without leaving Beijing undefended the turn afterwards. I don't want to risk population lost, though gold would probably be subtracted instead... after the RNG gives us disease two turns in a row, I'm not taking chances.

1910(6) "Hello, Alex? I have a special offer for you... we'll send you some nice, shiny gold coins every turn if you'll give us Mysticism. Oh? You like this offer? Good! Here's three shiny pieces every fiscal year, along with fourteen ones we have lying around the treasury."

"By the way... we appreciate the extra security, but with the barbarian menace cleared out near Shanghai, we really don't need the assistance in keeping our trade routes clear. If you want to direct your Archer/Hoplite Anti-Barbarian Corps somewhere else, I believe I saw barbarians lurking near Salamanca."

1870BC(7) "Alex, please, pay attention to your hoplites... they're wandering around near Shanghai again. The barbarian camp is probably to the west of it, not the east. Please ask for directions in the future."

Warriors exploring to the east, extorts... ahem, receives donations from a local barbarian village.

1830BC(8)
"Alex? Your hoplites are scaring the elephants and making the tusk harvest difficult. Would you mind moving them? What? You would? How impolite?"

The Military Advisor grabs the phone from the Trade Advisor, and makes his displeasure known in no uncertain terms: "Out! Now!"

Unfortunately, the Anti-Barbarian Corps disobeys, under orders to fetch Alex a pet elephant, and war is declared!

"Hiawatha? How's it going? Oh, you want to pass some new plans to Phys Eins... hmm... 95 gold for something called a 'saddle', along with a 'bridle' and 'stirrups.' Let me get back to you on that- I don't think I can justify blowing the budget on that yet. You might ask Cleo, though- she's built up a tidy bit of cash, and will probably buy it from you if you ask her."

(IT): Ragnar stomps into the palace, demanding what he thinks is 'his' share of the petty cash. The Military Advisor tells him to take his admittedly empty threats elsewhere, as he has no units ready to strike our cities. Sulkily, Ragnar, not content with his massive treasury, filled with heaps of gold, declares war out of spite.

A Greek archer corps, full of swagger, wounds but fails to succeed in defeating our spearmen.

1790BC(9):
(IT): The Greek hoplites steal elephants, cutting off the ivory supply from Shanghai by poaching on our land.

1750BC(10): A veteran spear corps, incensed by the greek poachers, kills a hoplite company, leaving only one roaming band of land-rapers. A Viking archer heads for our warrior on the hill.

Hmmm... We are not in a good situation here. The Greeks may make us pay for peace, after all that pillaging, but I don't see how we can strike back against hoplites. Out of sheer desperation, a spear took out one hoplite but there is another near Beijing that will probably pillage until we kill it. Beijing can be swapped to an archer if you think it will have a good chance to do so- it's risky, and terrain-dependent. The Vikings we can either pay for peace, or delay until we have Writing and get an alliance with Hiawatha, who might be at war with him already- he's at least considering it, as I've seen several Iroquois SoDs approach Stockholm before backing off.

I made the Mysticism deal in the hope that Alex wouldn't renege, but he did- his reputation is now busted, and we grabbed the tech for ~20 gold instead of 75. This is valid- I've seen the AI back off in PTW before for gpt, and even if the deal had stayed, it's wouldn't have been that bad a drain on our resources. Horseback Riding is available from Hiawatha- until we get a horse resource within our borders, I advise holding off on buying it until Cleo gets it- she has 52 gold and another barb camp will probably make her able to buy it from another AI.

I leave it to the business of extricating ourselves from this sticky situation to the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys_Eins_of_the_Chinese,_1750_BC.SAV).

Edit: This should be the correct file. Sorry about the problems with the first one. :wallbash:

Got it.

@Physicist

PLEASE PLAY QUICKLY!

I dont have much time after Mon morning and would like to get at least half the turns played before then.

JMansell

Borealis: Wrong file!

I was visiting my parents during the weekend and didn't have time for Civ. I just checked the forums once and, without reading your report or having a closer look at the file, posted my 'got it'. :( I shouldn't have done that, of course.

Now I realized that you posted the 1830 BC file and *not* the 1750 BC file! Please post the correct file ASAP! I will then play monday night (if I get the file in time) or tuesday night (GMT).

JMansell: Sorry that I did not play on the weekend. In the future, if you can forsee that you will only able to play during the weekend, please post a message *before* the weekend. Then we will try to find a solution. I would gladly have changed my place in the rotation with you for this round.
Do you see a possibility to play this week at all?

- Physicist

Yeah I should be able to play. However I suggest Architect should stay on stand by just in case. Thank you.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1750BC.jpg

Status of the Empire
The young Chinese nation indeed lives in interesting times! We are at war with two of our neighbors. Our settler factory Beijing is growing slowly at size 5 and producing military, Greek Hoplite forces are pillaging the fields around Beijing. Shanghai is not connected to Beijing any more. Both Scandinavia and Greece are not willing to talk to us.

Summary:
We stop the Greek Hoplite pillaging our lands.
Peace is made with both of our enemies (however, we have to pay a significant amount of reparation).
Beijing's land is partially re-improved, settler production is taken up again.

Report on the years 1750 BC - 1500 BC
1750 BC - (0)
Lux slider back to 0%.
Change spear production Beijing to archer.

1725BC - (1)
Our worker head for Beijing.
MM Beijing for archer in 3 turns at the cost of 1 gold. Archer and one Spear leave Beijing in order to protect our improved tiles.
Our SW scout flees from a Viking archer. We don't want to loose any troops at the moment.
Horseback Riding has been traded around among the three Civs that are friendly towards us. Haiwa knows Writing.
We sell Masonry and Alphabet to Japan for Horseback Riding and 12g, he goes from annoyed to cautious.
We buy an Iroquois worker for 2 gpt & 71g. Haiwa goes from cautious to polite.
(I) Hoplite pillages flood plain. Barb warrior appears near Shanghai.

1700BC - (2)
(I) Scared by our mighty forces, ehm, well, or maybe without undefended tiles for pillaging in reach, the Greek Hoplite flees. Shanghai completes a much needed Spear (with a barb warrior nearby).

1675BC - (3)
Our workers start re-improving Beijings tiles. MM Beijing for max growth again. We pop a "skilled" warrior out of a goody hut.
(I) Our Spear in Shanghai promotes to Elite while defending Shanghai against barb attack!
Beijing grows to size 6.

1650BC - (4)
lux to 10%. Our SW warrior (scout) reports that he is now hunted by 1 Viking warrior and 2 archers.

1625BC - (5)
We learn that the Iroqois founded Cattaraugus between yellow and light blue dot, that our first ring!
Cleo has Writing.

1600BC - (6)
Lux to 20% to avoid Beijing rioting.
Alex is willing to talk! He knows Writing. We make peace with Alex for 20g.

1575BC - (7)
Attacking a barb camp with two warriors, we unfortunately loose the vet warrior. The conscript warrior succeeds, is promoted to reg. We get 25g.
The Vikings are willing to talk! Ragnar wants 160g for peace! :eek: With our next settler due in 2 turns, three Viking units approaching Beijing and a 'hopelessly behind' Chinese nation in mind I decide to make peace with Ragnar. However, I make give 4 gpt and 88 g instead of plain 160 g which would have left us broke.

1550BC - (8)
(I) A barb warrior attacks our E scouting warrior and promotes him to vet.

1525BC - (9)
We have built our second settler (lux back to 10%). He heads for black dot.
Toku knows Mysticism
(I) the Japs start the Oracle

1500BC - (10)
zzz

Comments and Suggestions:
* The Settler was basically heading towards black dot, where the unmoved warrior is standing. I am not really happy with this location any more; although it has access to fresh water, it will not grow beyond size 9 before rails (assuming all four reachable grass tiles are irrigated, four mined hills and one mountain; overlap with Stockholm ignored...), and it will always grow slowly. Considering that, I would tend to build the city where the settler is currently located. This will secure the Iron and will grab the gems with a temple. Decision is up to the next player, although I would be glad to hear the opinion of others, too.
In any case, this will be a junk city (to be abandoned before Communism), so please name it 'Junk 1' or somethink like that (you are the native speakers, so feel free to invent a better name ;) ). Nevertheless, we should settle in this region first as it it secures Iron and Gems, and we need both. This city needs tile improvement as soon as Beijing 'finished'. Make sure that it does not grab any of the tiles Beijing needs for "settler in 5 turns".
* We must expand like crazy, so take care for Beijing (mm for settler in 5 turns as stated earlier, adjusting lux slider after growth). In the future barracks in Shanghai might be considered, but do not send out unprotected settlers in this tense diplomatic situation.
* There was not much discussion about my dotmap. Should I make a new one, taking into account the lately settled AI cities? Or is the old dotmap ok? Anyway, I would propose to settle next near the Horses and the second Iron resource (maybe moving yellow dot 2 NE?).
* Currently, we have three scouts: warrior far E, archer near E (intended to stay close to Beijing) and a warrior heading W from Shanghai. The spear between Shanghai & Beijing is intended to protect the next settler.

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1500BC.zip

JMansell: UP
Architect: on deck

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1500BC.jpg

Got it. Will try and play tonight or tomorrow morning.

Also we need to gat a city running that with the help of a granary can pump out workers until the end of time. I suggest the light green dot as this will snag the horses and get a good food city online. Then we can get the 2nd iron. Thoughts, Comments?

JMansell

Originally posted by jmansell02 Also we need to gat a city running that with the help of a granary can pump out workers until the end of time. I suggest the light green dot as this will snag the horses and get a good food city online. Then we can get the 2nd iron. Thoughts, Comments?


:thumbsup: to grabbing Horses & 2nd Iron! BTW, Athens is size one, maybe Alex built a settler recently. We will see ...

Concerning Worker Factory: I thought about your idea of the worker factory and I am not sure if we really need that. First, with our slow early landgrabbing, we will have to go to war sooner than later. This usually means that we will get (industrious) slaves which will allow us to keep the number of our native workers low (we will not need 70+ native workers as in 'The2'). Second, there are lots of flood plains around which will allow for fast growth and a regular production of workers at size 6/12. This is especially true for those 'junk cities' (to be abandoned in Communism) which will not build improvements but units, esp. workers. In our case, some 'junk cities' with flood plains at size 6, each producing a worker every second/third turn might do the job. Our permanent cities should grow and build improvements instead.
Just my thoughts, open for discussion of course.

JMansell: Good luck for your first turns in this game! :)

- Physicist

I'm REALLY sorry to dissapoint you guys but... er... um... you see... I haven't really got time to play a SG at the moment. I will keep an eye on this game and try to offer some helpful suggestions but I'm afraid I'll have to opt out. So I guess its over to Architect. Sorry. :(

:suicide:

*splutter* *splutter* *gasp*
"Go...od... by...e"
*fall to ground dead"

JMansell

@JMansell: Sorry to hear that. I would have been glad to play the game with you, but I accept your decision, of course.

@Architect & Borealis: We are down to three players. I personally would still like to play that game. Would you agree to continue playing? Maybe one or two other players will decide to join then...

- Physicist

I'll continue. Post a plea for help in the open slot thread and maybe we'll get a taker. :)

Borealis: Thank you for continuing! :) I have edited my post in the SG Registry. Maybe that helps...

Also, a comment to the lurkers in this thread: We need one or two additional players! If you have some Emperor experience, don't hesitate to apply! Feel free post here or PM me.

Architect: If you are willing to continue, you are up now.

Roster:
Physicist
Architect >>> UP NOW
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)
(open)

I got it. But I'm up in two games again so give me a day or so.

Architect: Thanks for continuing to you, too. :)

Originally posted by Architect
I got it. But I'm up in two games again so give me a day or so.

Definitely no problem, take your time. The original ruleset suggested overall 72h for 'got it', playing and posting. As long as we are three players only, I would allow for even more flexibility if necessary. However, I would ask for a short note here in the thread so that the other players know about the current status.

@team: With three players only, would you prefer to play 20 turns (at least as an option), or should we stick to the original "10 turns strictly" rule?

- Physicist

I'd prefer 10 turns for 'quick play' or wars, and maybe 20 if you take the full 48 to play. Later in the game, we'll probably have to scale back to 10 turns/session.

Also, a scheduling note: I'm going to be out of town from Friday afternoon until around noon Sunday, as I have to go home for the weekend. I should be able to play if I get it before ~10 am Friday morning, if not, I'll have to wait for Sunday afternoon. If my turn comes up in between those times, go ahead and skip me, or wait for me, as you like.

I'm finally going to play today. Got a bit of food poisoning from bad sushi and it kept me off the computer. Finishing up my first game and then will do this one. Expect a post in a few hours.

1500BC(0) We need settlers. I'm going to go ahead and found on the hill near the water as that will allow the gems much sooner.

IT: Greece demands tribute of 24g. I give in *this* time.

1475BC(1)

1450BC(2) Polythesim has been discovered.

1425Bc(3) Canton is founded and begins constuction of a worker.

1400BC(4) Writing is discovered. I go for Literature at 40 turns. We establish embassies with The Iros, Greeks, and Vikings. A settler completes in Bejing and heads for the green dot near the horses.

1375BC(5) The iros suddenly have literature so I switch to math.

1350BC(6) ...

1325BC(7) ...

1300BC(8) Nanking is founded.

1275BC(9) I send next settler to found 2 south of the light green dot as the egyptians have taken the grey dot.

1250BC(10) Five turn settlers are working great. Don't screw this up as it is our biggest advantage right now. Use the workers being produced right now to connect up the iron and then the gems. Don't build anything but workers in Canton. The cultural pressure on memphis might pick our first target for destruction. Next priority should be to grab as much of the lands near the Iros as possible they are being attacked by much of the world so seize the day. After the worker completes in Shanghai start building spearman again as I did construct a barracks there. I didn't check diplomacy this turn so you'll want to check it.

Since Bor is out, I guess Physicist is up. If you play I can probably get another 10 in this weekend.

Physicist --> UP
Architect --> On deck unless Borealis comes back.
Borealis
(OPEN)
(OPEN)


1250BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys-1250bc.zip)

Architect: Sorry to hear about the food poisoning. I hope you are at good health again.

Concering the game: I am currently not at home (no access to Civ), but I will return in few hours. Unless Borealis has returned, I will post a 'got it' then, play 10 turns and post my report (around 20 GMT).

- Physicist

EDIT: Got it.

Summary:
Two cities founded.
Traded near tech parity.
Oracle and Colossus have been built, TGL started by many of our neighbors.

Report on the years 1250 BC - 1000 BC:

1250 BC - (0)
Everythink looks good. Diplomathy: Scandinavians have Polytheism, Iroquois have Map Making & Literature, Egypt has one worker. We could afford Literature, but it would leave us nearly broke, so I do not buy it yet. All other techs are too expensive for us.

We buy the Egyptian worker for 4 gpt & 40 g. The worker heads towards Canton. With all those mountains, we have use for it there.

I am not completely sure if I should send the settler to the location suggested by Architect (Egypt might see that as agressive settlement) or if should settle orange dot or near the second Iron instead. After some consideration, I decide to follow Architects plan; 2 S of light green dot this city will be a quite strong city due to floodplains and the mined mountains.

(I) Greek and Iroquois sign a peace treaty. Egypt estabishes an embassy.

1225 BC - (1)
Shanghai starts spear production.
(I) The Iroquois city of Salamanca completes the Oracle.

1200 BC - (2)
We found Desert Junk 2 S of light green dot. Horses come online.
(I) Greece and Iroquois have signed a military alliance against Scandinavia. As a consequence, Greece declares war on Scandinavia.

1175 BC - (3)
Grml. The Iroquis have founded Tonawanda 1 tile east of the ruins of their former city :( . I wanted to send our next settler there.
Hey. There was some trading interturn.
Japan: knows Map Making, Literature and Code of Law. Broke.
Egypt: knows Map Making, Literature. Broke.
Iroquois: Map Making, Literature, Code of Law. 381g.
Scandinavia: Map Making, Polytheism, Code of Law. 72g.
Greece: Map Making, Literature. 41g.
We lack all of those techs...

In other word, the Vikings have a monopoly on Polytheism, but lack Literature. Greece and Egypt lack Code of Law additionally. Looks like a trading opportunity :)
We buy from ...
Scandinavia: Code of Law for 10 gpt & 3g
Greece: Literature & 31g for Code of Law
Scandinavia: 1 gpt & 58 g for Literature
Egypt: Map Making for Code of Law and 54 g

After dealing with us, everybody is on tech parity (including us :D ). Exception: Scandinavia still has a monopoly on Polytheism. We tried to buy that tech, but were far from getting it even when putting everything on the table ("I doubt they will accept..."). Nevertheless, we gained three techs, dropping from an income of 12 gpt to 4 gpt, however. But I think it was worth it :).
Note that I did *not* sell WM or TM, and that I did not give gpt to anyone except the Vikings (which are not one of our closest neighbors). We are paying 9 gpt (netto) to them.

(I) The Greeks (Athens) & the Japanese (Kyoto) start The Great Library.

1150 BC - (4)
(I) Japan and Iroquois sign millitary alliance against Egypt, Japan declares war on Egypt. The Vikings start TGL in Trondheim.

1125 BC - (5)
(I) Scandinavia & Japan: Alliance agianst Egypt. Scandinavia declares War. Egypt (at war with the three most powerful civs on this piece of land) starts TGL :crazyeyes: in Memphis.

1100 BC - (6)
Egypt has Mathematics. Our 10% research will take another 29 turns.
(I) Egypt offeres an exchance of WM, but wants 50g for it. We decline.
Babylon completes the Colossus.

1075 BC - (7)
A barb horse has appeared near Shanghai and threatens our worker there. Worker retreats to Shanghai.
We found Xinjian on orange dot.
(I) Our peace treaty with Scandinavia is renewed. Our spear defends against the barb horse.

1025 BC - (9)
Egypt offers a worker, Scandinavia two. Scandinavia has learned Philosophy. We could buy two workers for all our cash and 6 gpt (we are making 10 gpt currently). That seems to be too expensive to me as we have to collect some money for the upcoming trades. I buy one worker from Scandinavia for 2 gpt and 80g.

1000 BC - (10)
The Scandinavian worker is still available...

Comments and Suggestions:
* A group, consisting of settler, spear & (Scandinavian) worker, has not yet been moved. I intended to settle dark purple dot with them. We need an at least semi-productive harbor! But decision is up to you. If we would move the city 1 S, the overlap with Xinjian would be high and we would have to abandon one of the cities (prob. Xinjian) before Communism (which would not be a great problem IMO). Or we could move the city one more tile SE (onto the bg). Would grab the whale & be at river, but miss the Ivory.
* There are one spear and one warrior in the middle of our land. The spear is indended to accompany the next settler obviously, the warrior might scout W or maybe go to Beijing for MP, freeing one of the archers there.
* As Architect said before: Keep Beijing on "settler in 5 turns", Canton on worker and Shanghai on spear production. Feel free to veto the other build orders, I did not consider them intensively.
We might perhaps allow Canton to grow once and then place a lone scientist there; we are currently spenting 3 gpt on min sci research. Just an idea.
* We could buy another worker from Ragnar, but we should keep an eye on our cash. Three tech monopolies currently exist, all of them too expensive at the moment, but trading possibilities should appear in the future with all civs at war with somebody. Be careful when trading with Cleo, she is the weakest civ (two cities only) and at war with the top three. We should avoid "per turn" deals with her if possible.

Borealis, Architect, it is your decision who is going to play next. I would suggest that, if Borealis has not returned yet and Architect can play today, Architect should take it.

Good luck to the next player! :)

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1000BC.zip

PS: I might post a screenshot later.

I'm back, and I've "got it." :)

Note that there seems to be a funny North-South gradient in the power of the civs. The three most powerful civs (with Scandinavia being top) are located in the south. Egypt and Greece, located in the north, have two/three cities only and are already notable behind in the power graph. China, a 'middle power', is geographically located in the middle of the continent, too.
The power ranking might change in the future, of course... :D :ninja:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-1000bc.jpg

EDIT: Screenshot loads now.

@Borealis: Welcome back, and good luck with your turns!

@team: I don't think we should return to the old roster as I would have to play again after Borealis. Thus, I intend to change the roster. (With three players, we should allow for some flexibility here.)

- Physicist

New Roster:
Physicist
Borealis >>> up and playing
Architect >>> on deck
(open)
(open)

(0) Inherited turn: Settler/spear/worker sent to hill on river. The new city will overlap with Xinjian but we can reschedule later. We'll want at least one city apiece later to grab the luxuries we don't have- dyes and silk- that are visible to the east, and this city provides a harbor/bridge to them, if we make those cities coastal. Furs to the west also beckon; if we play it right, we could have three luxuries, and four a little later, in our empire within a few player turns.

Checking cities reveals that Shanghai will revolt next turn unless something is done. :nono: It gets a clown for a few turns, until the spear there is completed.

(1) 975 BC: Elite warrior grabs 25 gold from barb camp near silks with no lost hp. Warrior near Shanghai goes exploring; spear goes into Beijing to relieve MP there, and provides better defense.

(2) 950BC: Gems are now hooked up, and Shanghai's clown is fired.

(IT): Greece and Japan sign a peace treaty. The Japanese warriors are seen heading towards Memphis.


(3) 925 BC: Canton switched to Temple; this can be vetoed but I think that having the extra cultural power would help, as this city is a keeper. Once it grows, it can use the hill soon to be mined near it, and it's close enough to the capital to be productive.

(IT): Vikings and Iroquois sign a peace treaty.

(4) 900 BC: Archer + settler pair head for furs near Shanghai. Chengdu founded.

(5) 875 BC: Diplo check reveals that three civs have Philosophy and two have Polytheism. Cleo has Math, but as we will get it in 20 turns and the price will drop if she makes peace with anyone for it as the price, I wait to tech-shop.

(6) 850 BC:

(7) 825 BC:

(8) 800 BC: Argh! Greek hoplite/settler pair may grab city site first.
(IT): Japan offers to sell me Philosophy- probably everyone but Cleo has it now.

(9) 775 BC: Hangchow is founded, overlapping two squares with Shanghai- those two squares consist of a mountain and a desert square apiece, and shouldn't be that big of a loss. Also, waiting to move would lose the furs to the Greeks, as the AI has a settler/hoplite pair in position for what it would consider a good city. As it will grow in 20 turns until the workers bring irrigation, I set it to build a temple. This can be swapped out later as needed.
There are threatening-looking Viking archers near Canton.

Tokugawa sells us Polytheism for 183 gold and 2 gpt- it's time to trade tech, with the top three AI all three techs ahead, and Cleo with an extra worker. Polytheism + 3 gold gets us Math + an Egyptian worker. Polytheism + 6 gold + 3gpt gets us Philosophy. 40-turn research on Monarchy started, as we need to get out of Despotism, and Monarchy will allow us to go to war easily (which we will probably need to do sooner rather than later), and make an easier transition to Communism when the time comes. We are now at tech parity.

(IT): Forbidden Palace prompt.

(10) 750 BC: Viking and Japanese units move through our territory. Elite warrior disperses a barb encampment with 1 hp loss. Vet warrior disperses a barb encampment with 2 hp loss.

(IT) : Vikings and Greece sign a peace treaty. Viking archers move around Canton threateningly.

(11) 730 BC:
(IT): More Viking movement.

(12) 710 BC: Large Viking archer SoD spied in jungle. We have 5 turns left on the peace treaty, and hopefully we can buy something from Ragnar when it runs out. Furs hooked up at Hangchow allow me to drop the luxury tax- we are now making 22 gpt. Spear moves into Beijing.

(13) 690 BC:

(14) 670 BC:

(15) 650 BC: Settler/spear pair stay in Beijing in case Ragnar decides to break his treaty early.

(IT): Ragnar appears to be just passing through. With the large volume and quality of units, along with the Iroquois archers, expect Cleo to be toast/paying tribute soon.

(16) 630 BC:

(17) 610 BC: Settler/spear pair out of Shanghai moves towards river-fed cattle, and can be placed according to the next leader's discretion.

(18) 590 BC: Tientsin founded. This city will grab dyes and be productive once jungle is cleared, and is on a river. It avoids overlap with Chengdu.
(IT): A Japanese archer loses to an Egyptian archer. Many gpt deals end, putting us at +35 gpt.

(19) 570 BC:
(IT): Greece offers to trade WM if we give up 70 gold. I pass for now, but this gives us a relative idea of our map's worth- not much, as being the highway to Cleo makes our territory very visible.

(20) 550 BC: Nanking will build a settler in 8 turns, when it grows, but could be allowed to grow more as we'll have *four* luxuries once the workers connect the dyes near Tientsin. Canton needs to complete its temple/grow again before it is used to make a scientist, as we need to get a cultural edge there. Beijing is due to build a settler as it grows. There is a settler/spear pair in Canton, and a settler/spear pair near the rivers to Canton's NW. We are currently running a 36 gpt surplus, with 347 gold in the bank- more than anyone but the Vikings, who will probably demand more from us soon. In 9 turns our tech deals with Alex and Tokugawa will expire and our income will jump to 41 gpt. Monarchy is due in 29, and can be shortened to 18 turns if we feel it is necessary. The AI has no tech to trade right now, and is at peace with everyone but Cleo.

As long as we avoid war with the Vikings too early, we should be fine, but doing so is very necessary- the massive numbers of units passing through our territory dictate extreme caution when dealing with Ragnar. I leave it to the
next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-550BC.zip) to possibly direct the transition to a Monarchy.

Edit: Double post.

Borealis: Well played! I had a sneak peak at the save, and we seem to be in a much better shape now. We are #2 in land size and population on the F11 screen. And FOUR native luxuries...! :thumbsup:
Ehm, sorry for not checking Shanghai. I feel :blush:. Looks like I tend to forget about that before saving the file in the last turn... :( . I will try to avoid such :smoke: in the future.

Architect: >>> UP NOW
Physicist: >>> on deck

Hm, no news from Architect. The 24 hours for confirmation are over.

I will take the game and play 10 turns as I have time now. Expect my report in a few hours.

Borealis, I would like to give Architect a chance to play after me, so I put him "on deck" again. I hope that's ok for you.

Roster:
Physicist: up and playing
Architect: on deck
Borealis

Summary:

* Tatung & Macao (future FP location?) founded. Two more settlers near possible city locations.
* The Great Library was completed in Kyoto.
* The Vikings razed Memphis.


Status of the Empire

Monarchy: ASAP! Sci to 80%, due in 18 turns. (Borealis: Just a reminder: Representative governments are not allowed! :) No need to think about alternatives to Monarchy.).

We lack military. Shanghai alone can not provide enough troops.


Report on the years 550 BC - 1000 BC:

550 BC - (0)

Build orders:
* Beijing's "5 turns settler" cycle is broken. The settler finished in 1 turn will drop Beijing to size 4. :nono: :) . I don't want to build a sword here, so I will allow the settler to complete, but we will go full growth afterwards. With +5 fpt all the time, we will complete the next settler in 6 turns and be back to 5-6-7 settler production cycle.
* With the government change to monarchy and the lack of a granary in mind, Nanking is switched from settler to 'rax. We need more military urgently!
* Chengdu does not need a harbor yet, as it has lots of good tiles to work, but needs a temple to grab the whale and the two ivory tiles. (Our galleys need not be veteran yet, for exploring). Switch harbor -> temple.
* Tientsin, however, is completely surrounded by jungle and will not be able to grow beyond size 2. We lack the workers to cut that jungle down at the moment. Thus, temple switched to harbor here.
* I will keep Desert Junk & Xinjian at worker production. Desert Junk may need a temple due to overlap with Memphis, but is think Cleo has other problems and will not build a temple there. I will keep in mind to MM these cities for worker production after/at growth and not before growth.

City placement:
* Canton (max. size 10, even with rails ), Desert Junk and probably Xinjian (4 tiles overlap with Chengdu) are junk cities, to be abandoned in Communism.
* Thus, the settler near Canton will found a permanent city. This city will have to grab Cantons Iron under Communism, with minimal overlap with Shanghai. Thus the settler will found 1S from its current position.
* There is also a good site S of Chengdu & Xinjian. Might grab the Iron over there, and a potential FP site.
* There are silks 5E of Tientsin. A potential fifth native lux! I want to settle there, although we will probably not keep this city under Communism (only few shields).
* Controlling the four Dyes in the eastern jungle would be nice for trades.
* The settler in Canton and the new settler to be build in Beijing will both head east to grab those sites.

(I) Greece & Japan: Mil. alliance against Egypt, Greece declares war on Egypt. Poor Cleo.

530 BC - (1)
Tatung founded NW of Canton.
(I) Buy worker from Scandinavia for 2 gpt & 80g. Lots of fighting, mostly Vikings against Egyptians. The Iros kindly kill a barb horse that threatened our Great Eastern Road.

510 BC - (2)
Hm, some of our workers have irrigated a grass near Xinjian. Irrigating one of the flood plains would have been better...
(I) Egypt and Iro make Peace. KYOTO COMPLETES TGL !

430 BC - (6)
Buy 1 Scandinavian worker for 2 gpt & 80 g. Whip temple in Canton.
(I) Memphis is destroyed by Viking Archers, Cleo is down to 1 city.

410 BC - (7)
We found Macao.

390 BC - (9)
Ragnar knows Construction. We meet a Japanese settler pair that heads to the E end of the Eastern peninsula.

350 BC - (10)
We dispers a barb camp.

To the next leader:

SETTLING
* For further settlements keep in mind: Canton, Desert Junk & Xinjian are Junk cities. The other cities are not, so take care for minimal overlap.
* The two settlers are unmoved. I wanted to settle the Northern settler 1N (former Memphis location) or 1 NE, the latter is occupied by a Viking spear currently. Do not settle were the settler stands now (too many desert tiles)!
* The eastern settler: ATTENTION. There is a Jap settler pair 2 tiles away, direction ~ E, heading east. Three possible locations for this settler: Dyes here, Silk north or optimal city placement (OCP) location, south between Macao and Tiensin. I would go for the silks, killing the barb horse with our warrior and either settling 1E (barb horse location) or 2E (another OCP location, see below).
* Macao looks like FP location IMHO, so OCP settlement 5 tiles SE of Macao should be considered. Then eastern settler might better be placed 2E instead of 1E.
* The Vikings are going for Thebes. Check the location regularily, maybe they raze it, too. In that case we should fill the gap :D (maybe 2 SE of the current location, at the coast. Would be a strong coastal city supplying us with silks)
* 4 SE of Tatung and Canton, at the river, grabbing the Iron, looks interesting, too.

GENERAL
* ! MM Beijing for settler in 5 turns !
* Dyes hooked up this turn, so we can drop lux rate back to 0% (I forgot to do that).
* Hangchow can (and should) whip temple next turn. Shanghai could have use for a temple too, but could build it in four turns with MM, do not whip here.
* Keep building troops! We will need offensive units (horse, upgradeable to Rider!) soon to deter attacks. Currently, a war against e.g. the Vikings would hurt us.
* Ragnar has Construction, Monarchy is due for us in 6 or 7 turns. No tech trading happened during my turn.
* No per turn trades with Cleo!

I will post a screenshot and maybe a new dotmap tomorrow.

Good luck to the next player! :)

- Physicist

The file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-350BC.zip

EDIT: Summary added, concluding comments reworked.

Borealis: If Architect does not post a "got it" within the 24h after I posted the file, take the file without awaiting further notice from me.

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist
Architect >>> UP NOW
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)
(open)

530 BC: Viking invasion force moving through our territory to eventually capture Memphis some turns later.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-530BC.jpg

350 BC: Dotmap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-350BC-dotmap.jpg

I am short of time today, so just some short notes.
Note: I assume Macao as FP location

Red: grabs Dyes, coastal & fresh water
Orange: former Memphis location

Yellow: coastal, fresh water, Macao first ring
Green: grabs Silks, thus has priority. Coastal spot near Thebes preferred as permanent city.

Blue: Three Iroquis cities I want to have. :D
Macao first ring cities & grabbing Wine.
White: Beijing first ring city

With these we would have 14 permanent cities, which is approximately the number we are aiming at in Communism. These cities are strong under Monarchy and Communism, or grap important resources. All additional cities would be junk cities!

Any comments/discussion are very welcome.

- Physicist

I will jump in if you really need a player. I'm yet to try out Emperor, but I'm planning on playing the RBcivEpic on Emperor that is open right now. I feel I'm ready for the step up as I'm winning consistently on monarch and normally have few problems with it unless I get a really poor start.

Harleqin: Thank you for your interest. The difficulty here is probably beyond Emperor, especially in the late game, but as only few players are applying, I am more than willing to take you. Welcome!
I suppose you know about the way to go here? We are aiming at about 14 (optimal city number) permanent cities with minimal overlap for Communism, all other cities will be abandoned at the government change. We will lack commerce, thus will probably not research ourselves after the ancient age (no libraries etc.). You might want to read over the (unfortunately quite long) discussion on the first page; especially the comments by Charis are very good.
When we are talking about "5 turn settlers" in Beijing, the following is meant: after settler production, Beijing is at size 5. MM it for + 5 food per turn (fpt), to that we reach size 6 in 2 turns. At size 6, allow for one turn at + 4 fpt and then MM to + 3 fpt for two turns, always using the best tiles available (wheat, flood plains, Ivory plains). Then you have automatically collected 30 shields and Beijing will build the settler in the turn it grows to size 7. A lot of MM and one has to check Beijijng nearly each turn, but it is worth it.

Borealis proposed to let Harleqin play next. I second that. I will file Harleqin into the roster between Architect and me. Harleqin, it is your turn to take lead over the people of China!

Architect has not posted for several days although being up. I am concerned that something has happened to him. To keep the game going, Architect will be skipped until he posts a note. I will write him a PM with our best wishes.

@team: In my report, the initial comment "Monarchy ASAP" might be slightly misleading. As we are not religious, we should expect some turns of Anarchy during government change. Thus, we should settle the permanent cities, i.e. the dots on the dotmap, *before* revolution. First things first! :)

New Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
(Architect - skipped until further notice)
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)

I'll read the thread once more to get into the mood and then play and post a little later today. In other words. I've got it :)

And thanks for letting me in. I'll do my best not to disappoint you :)

Sorry guys, I am out of town dealing with a family illness. I will be available at the earliest on Monday.

Architect, great to hear from you! I wish your whole family a soon recovery to good health. (Ouch, that part of my vocabulary is REALLY rusty...)

Nevertheless, I would suggest to continue as planned. Architect is skipped until Monday.

Harleqin: I can only speak for myself, but if you do your best, there will be no way to disappoint me :) . I was always a supporter of "learning by doing" (with certain guidance ;) ). Hey, I am working at a university institute, learning is some kind of my "daily bread".
I hope you will enjoy the game!
EDIT: I like your home page! Very well made. But what happened to the Scientific trait on the "Traits" paige? I could not find it...

- Physicist

Roster
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up
Architect - skipped until Monday / further notice
Borealis >>> on deck
(open)

14 cities with minimal overlap…. Check! :cool:
Beijing MM for settler when it hits 7….Check! :cool:
Priority on luxuries…..Check! :cool:
Dotmap examined…. Check! :cool:
Priority on red, green and white dots… Check! :cool:
Flip risk at white dot…. Uncheck! :cry:
Ten turns…. Check! :cool:

Let’s rock. Incidentally I’m currently playing solo with the Chinese, so I know what they are good at.

The house of Harleqin seizes power in a bloodless coup and the son of a farmer takes a look at the lands. Being a farmer at heart he wants to grow. Let’s have a look at the current state of affairs.
We’re researching monarchy at -3 gpt, but have plenty of cash so no problems there. According to the minister in charge of science we’re progressing well due to generous founding. Nice. :goodjob:

The minister of war urges us to build more troops, but they will only eat our food and scare the cattle. Though we are weak we should be able to make do a little longer. Hey, I’m a farmer. It’s hard to work the land with arrows. The Japs are annoyed with us and we have no trade routes. Our culture is also nothing to speak of.

We have iron, horses and no less than FOUR luxuries. Very good. Only two techs from the next age and no cities appear ready to riot. Beijing managed to grow and build in two turns. Shanghai is working on a spear and has a barracks to produce veterans. Good again. Same goes for Nanking and Canton. Desert Junk is growing fast and building workers. About all it’s good for as it will get abandoned later. No buildings here then. The rest are checked and doing fine. I notice food is optimised several places, but with enough luxes and the added shields from growth, this is well.

Inherited turn (350 BC): Our elite warrior slaughters a barbarian horse so we can get to red dot but a Jap settler/spear is already there. A Scandinavian spear is blocking orange dot, but I’ll wait for them to move as the land here is not as good as what we should get and moving in another direction will give us overlap. Hmm… red dot is NOT on the coast. It is on two lakes. I’ll see what the Japs do.

IBT: Borders expand, a forest is chopped down, a worker is built…and the Japs settle Nagoya.

Turn 1 (330 BC): A new worker is ordered at Desert Junk and I MM it a bit to reduce waste. I order the settler toward the silks instead now as red dot is gone. I order the new worker south to help at Macao and the other start building toward the coming city at orange dot. I note Shanghai will get unhappy when it grows next and pulls it off Spearmen and onto a temple. A spear was just built there.

IBT: The Vikings want a RoP and an alliance against the Egyptians. Hmmm… I don’t think so. We lack offensive units. They are not interested in a pure RoP so I send them home again.

Turn 2 (310 BC): Settler built at Beijing. A new one is ordered up. Xinjian builds a barracks and start on a spearman. I note we lack spear for escorts. I normally REX, but I don’t want to invite the AI to attack, so I’ll wait for one. Anyang is settles at orange dot! Scandinavia has Construction. They are the only ones, but it is too expensive to get for brokering.

IBT: A barbarian horse dies on one of our warriors. Another avoid our spear/settler and moves against Nagoya.

Turn 3 (290 BC): A, a nice quiet turn. Only a little movement and a bit of MM to do.

IBT: The Vikings destroy the Egyptians. Who will be Ragnar’s next target? We survive a horse attack but one is approaching our furs in the north. The Vikings start the Great Wall.

Turn 4 (270 BC): A nearby archer spots the northern camp. The offensive horse in the north is slain at no loss to us.

IBT: We survive another horseattack. Otherwise things are calm in the East after the destruction of Egytp.

Turn 5 (250 BC): More MM at Beijing and a few other cities. A barbarian camp is destroyed by us near the silks. Optimal settlement here will give us some overlap with Tientsin though or far too much coast for my likening. Science set to +28 gpt and Monarchy is still here in one turn. I note that we want to delay a revolution.

IBT: Some Japanese swords move close to Macao. Are they headed for Nagoya or is Togu up to something?

Turn 6 (230 BC): We learn Monarchy and I start us on Currency. I like marketplaces. Another worker is built at Desert Junk. I call up Togugawa to hear about his plans for the future, but the little dude is annoying and insulting so I give up to learn much. We are weak compared to the Japs. We’d better watch out. There is only one spear in Macao. I consider whipping one at Xinijan to get reinforcements one turn faster but that is still three turns to arrive at the city and the Japs will be there next turn if they do attack. I build an embassy instead. They are working on a library and already have barracks, a temple and a granary as well as a wonder. I also note that he has only four cities, but he is still annoyed. I take a risk despite the dark clouds and send a settler/spear toward the white dot. The northern barbarian camp is crushed by our archers and they promote to veteran. Everybody already knows Monarchy.

IBT: The swords move away from Macao, but now I see Iro’s moving toward Tientsien… and the swords could be going that way. Future resource? The Iro’s start the Hanging Gardens.

Turn 7 (210 BC): Some more MM at Beijing to keep it going. Shantung is founded on the silks. We get the Japs down to cautious by selling them our territory map. The Iros get polite with us. I think the sun is breaking through the clouds.

IBT: Ahh… there is a barbarian camp down there. A barb horse kills a Iro archer in the jungle. The Japs start the Gardens.

Turn 8 (190 BC): Nice and quiet. A spear/settler starts moving east and I send a spear down to Macao for defence.

IBT: I have a hunch that the Vikings will pick on Greece next as they move an archer into their territory.

Turn 9 (170 BC): Temple built in Shainghai. Back on spear duty. I notice that neither of the white dots are optimal regarding overlap with Canton and Tonawanda, but in the end I go for the dot on the hill as it is defensible and will reduce overlap with Canton. It will waste a bonus grassland though. Perhaps it would be better to raze and move Tonawanda? :confused:

IBT: An Iro settler/spear moves southwest out of Tonawanda.

Turn 10 (150 BC): Nothing worth mentioning. Beijing MM’ed.

Be careful at White dot. It will be an aggressive settlement and annoy Ragnar enormously. Good luck to the next player. Hope I avoided any major weed. [pimp]


Here is the game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-150BC.ZIP)

Phys, it is because I haven't had time to finish the article. I'm still working on it. Have been working a lot lately and was overseas in the weekend. I'll do it after dinner tonight :)

Got it.

Harleqin: Looks like a very good set of well thought turns. By far not :smoke:.

Borealis: With four players again, we may go back to 10 turns per player.

But: STOP!!!! DO NOT SETTLE WHITE DOT RIGHT NOW ! I would like to have a permanent city there on the long run, but at the moment it would be :smoke: to settle there (as Harleqin noted in his report). Annoying Ragnar would bring us into great trouble. Sorry for not stating that clearly in my dotmap post.

I will download the file and have a look at the settling situation, but generally spoken, when all dots are settle (by whoever), start filling the gaps with junk cities. Build infrastructure in the permanent cities and rax+military in the other cities. We might want to take dots other civs settled on. :D

Anyway, let me repeat, everything is open to discussion, especially my dotmap... :)

EDIT (a long one):

OK, I had a short look at the file. Everything looks good :goodjob:, just one comment: If we agree on Macao as FP location, we should try to give Macao the best tiles available, even if we have to take them from Xinjian. Macao should grow *and* have high production to be able to start the FP ASAP.

Red dot is (more or less) settled by Nagoya. The question is, do we intend to capture that city (we would need these Dyes for trading only as Tientsin already supplies us with one Dye)? If not, we could settle another city later; at the moment, I do not see any good unsettled locations. (Salamanca looks nice, don't you think? :D ) Your opinions?

Two further subjects for discussion: When I look at our "permanent cities", I do not really like the location of Hangchow (IIRC we did not know the full map when settling there). It grabs the furs, but has a lot of desert to work on. A city 1N & 1NW (on the hill) would grab the furs and be much stronger. We might consider making Hangchow a junk city and settling there.
At the moment, we are planning for three strong coastal cities only under Communism, none of them on the western coast. Do you think we should plan for a city there?

Your comments/opinions? Do we agree on preparing for a war against the Iros to take some of there cities? And do we want to do that with or without Riders (saving up our GA later eras)?

- Physicist

Hangchow can be moved; it was settled to stop the Greeks from grabbing the furs as they had a settler pair in place. As far as the western coast, we should probably have one city there, but as close to our cultural boundaries as possible to minimize RoP trouble.

As far as war with the Iro's, remember that if they have horses (and I think they do), they'll have cheaper MW's available, which will slow down any major forays in their territory. With 3 attack, enough MWs can pose a major annoyance to our Riders, so if we're going to pull the war off, we need to a) deny the Iro's horses asap and b) have enough Riders to not only defeat defenders, but survive the occasional loss to counterattacks. We also need to keep Ragnar out of the mix- he and Hiawatha have had numerous alliances in the past against Cleo, and Ragnar wouldn't mind picking off one or two of our cities. On the other hand, allying with Ragnar would probably risk him grabbing too many cities that we want ourselves, and reduce any peace concessions we may get. With the AI able to break MA's and get away with it, any unique tech the Iro's may have would go to Ragnar first under those circumstances, reducing any trade advantage.

I'll play this evening, I think, and I'll look into the prospects for building up a reserve of Horsemen to up when we get Chivalry- it may be too early, as unit cost is not as cheap under Monarchy, but if it's possible I'll try to sneak a few vet horses/rax in the build process in my 10 turns.

Pre-turn 150 BC (0): Looking over the posts in this thread I agree that we are probably done with the settling period, and not to settle white dot. I'm going to send one of the settler pairs to the west coast, to ease travel time if necessary, probably near Hangchow. Lux tax is dropped, Currency sped by 1 turn at -7 gpt as the AI has been left alone to research far too long- looking at the log I see that they've had Construction for a while. We want to get trade potential, at least, before we revolt.

At size 8, with a temple and two MP, Shanghai has an equal number of happy and unhappy faces. Once we get Currency, I plan to revolt, as we have most cities settled that need to be settled ourselves without moving them, and cash-rushing marketplaces is viable as they'll pay for themselves shortly in our larger cities. Several cities that could be producing more shields with the same food output swapped to maximize production.

Foreign advisor tells me that Japan and the Iroquois can trade, and that we have several gpt deals ready to run out with Ragnar very shortly. Ragnar has Construction, iron, and 1 extra silk, but lacks horses. Hiawatha lacks iron and horses(!), and has no extra wines. Greece lacks Monarchy, and has no luxuries or resources currently hooked up, despite the Gems we see in his territory. Tokugawa has Construction, apparently has furs and iron, but lacks horses. He'll have to rush/build samurai from scratch if and when the time comes.

130 BC (1): Settler pair near white dot recalled and sent to Hangchow to possibly found a west coast city at some point. Settler pair near old Egypt sent to spy possible real estate in that area. Workers detailed to jungle clearance near Tatung. Viking unit movement, probably in search of barb camps. Warrior near Viking/Iro territory intersection spies furs in Iro cultural boundaries, that overlaps with Stockholm... white dot will be a cultural hotspot anyway, with the AI competing with each other there! Since everyone except us and Greece are in Monarchy, the amount of cash-rushed temples in that area, especially cheap Iro temples, makes a cultural war difficult. Warrior moves through territory- he'll be ordered out, but we want to reduce the map price by busting fog on the other side.

(IT): Our warrior is indeed asked to leave (politely, which is good as I'll remove him anyway). Japan starts the Great Wall.

110 BC (2): Several high-production cities start horsemen in preparation for rider output later. Beijing has a settler in it that will sit there for now as we have nowhere to send it; most cities are on the track for 3 military units, which will take advantage of the MP when we switch to Monarchy. Hangchow starts making workers.

90 BC (3): Setter + spear pair notices Thebes' cultural boundaries expanding already, and heads for non-overlapping spot to the north that will grab either wheat and cows, or horses and cows, as the leader who places the city wishes. Ragnar already has Currency... let me check- I don't think Japan or anyone else has enough to trade him for it, but he might give it away. We are going to get 46 gold and still get it in 1 turn.

(IT): We discover Currency, start Construction, and hear reports of a massive barbarian eruption near Hangchow...

70 BC (4): Somehow, the Japanese have Currency now, and still have their small amount of gold- they must have researched it as well. Construction is still too expensive, and Greece has enough cash to buy it from other AI at 3rd civ prices, so I choose to revolt and buy later. Anarchy! The domestic advisor predicts restoration of order in 5 turns... not great, but not awful either. Clowns and MM to slow growth mean most cities will remain content during the transition period.

50 BC (5): Massive stacks of horsemen appear, one scattering near Delphi, and one poised to attack Hangchow.

30 BC (6): Spear shifted from Shanghai to Hangchow, to protect against barb incursions as Hangchow only has a spear and a warrior.

(IT): The Viking archer in our territory near Hangchow redlines, but defeats one barb on his own, while defending against three attackers. Nice to see them killing each other off. :) Less happily, the Greeks appear to be making good progress on controlling the western seaboard with their city placements.

10 BC (7): More movement.

(IT): More battles against foreign enemies. The Vikings look like they want to snatch Hangchow while in Anarchy, moving an archer/warrior pair with a sword following near the city, while the barb horses pillage freely. Just wonderful. The archer near the southern barbs promotes to elite.

10 AD (8): Watching the Vikings with suspicion, I move a vet spear out of Canton, leaving two regulars to defend, to our iron source. There is a Viking spear right next to it, that could be difficult to dislodge, if Ragnar does declare on us.

(IT): The Vikings sneak-attack! With a warrior! Our spear at Hangchow promotes to elite, and is then knocked down to two hp by a barbarian horseman after suffering no wounds at Viking hands. :rolleyes:

30 AD (9): Decisions, decisions: I leave this round at the 9th turn in order to spur discussion as to the appropriate response to the Viking treachery. Greece can be brought into an alliance and give us Construction for Monarchy + 189 gold, the Iroquois and Construction for Currency and 236 gold, and Japan is too expensive at 237 gold + 5 gpt with nothing else out of the bargain. Hangchow and Nanking are the most threatened cities, and Canton is vulnerable to pillaging, with two spears stationed to avoid the nearby Viking spear taking our resources. We need to rush enough troops to survive the first turn, and then horses to take out the swords sent after us, until we're not paying horribly for peace. I think the alliance deal with Greece, or simply buying Construction from them and not allying, would be the best options. We need to get into the Middle Ages, and get to Chivalry so we can stop being pushed around by the AIs. Greece and Japan have The Republic. Japan is currently in the Republic while Greece is revolting- Ragnar probably has it already due to trading, but will stay in Monarchy due to his warlike nature. Hiawatha is in Monarchy and lacks both Currency and the Republic tech; we could possibly trade him Currency + some gold for Construction as an alternative to Alex.

I haven't done anything with this turn except to change production at Hangchow to walls that can be rushed to be due next turn for 16 gold, probably worth it to stop the sword on that mountain from killing our defenders. There's a warrior near Copenhagen that could pillage carefully, as the Vikings lack horses, as long as you keep it out of archer + road range. Watch out for the resources and workers near that Viking spear by Canton, and get rid of it ASAP to stop pillaging.


War with Scandinavia, 30 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-30ad.zip)

The problematic state of the Chinese Monarchy in 30 AD, on the first turn of the Viking invasion:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_ad30edit.JPG

The AI likes to attack a civ in anarchy. :mad: It *smells* the weakness...

I will have a short look at the file, but unfortunately lack the time to play now. I will play tomorrow night (GMT+1), so feel free to post comments/suggestions.

Roster
Physicist >>> up
Harleqin >>> on deck
Architect - skipped until Monday / further notice
Borealis
(open)

I see you have targeted your OCN at the map OCN of 14. I think you will be disappointed to find that you will not have 100% productivity when you have this number of cities. I also think you will find that doubling that figure (28 in this case) will not lower your overall percentage of productivity by much at all and will provide you with overall increased actual productivity that will greatly enhance your chance of successfully launching a space ship. I see you have made it into the AD, otherwise I think I would have joined in on this if I had caught on earlier.

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
I see you have targeted your OCN at the map OCN of 14. I think you will be disappointed to find that you will not have 100% productivity when you have this number of cities. I also think you will find that doubling that figure (28 in this case) will not lower your overall percentage of productivity by much at all and will provide you with overall increased actual productivity that will greatly enhance your chance of successfully launching a space ship. I see you have made it into the AD, otherwise I think I would have joined in on this if I had caught on earlier.

CB, if you are still interested, I would be glad to see you joining.
Hm, interesting comments about OCN etc. Actually, I wanted to find out about corruption in alexman's corruption thread and make some plot with corruption over city number for different circumstances (courts, police stations etc). When trying to use alexman's formulae, I did not understand two points. I asked alexman for help via PM, but he has not answered yet. Maybe I should post in the corruption thread itself.

I have to admit that I lack Communism experience (as I mentioned in an earlier post, I have just made some "unprepared" changes to Communism where my civ was in worse shape even compared to Monarchy). Do you have experience with Communism, CB?

@team: Now back to our current issues: I loaded the save and had a short look. Well, of course a war with Ragnar right now adds *a lot* of spice to this game, but my impression is that our situation could be worse. (Borealis handed a well-ruled empire to me :) ). If we avoid loseing any of our core cities and Canton (Iron), we should be able to handle that, even without mil. alliances. On the other hand, as Borealis pointed out, we definititely don't want Ragnar to ally *against* us. Thus, I am considering an alliance with Alex (he wants Monarchy for it) and even Haiwa :eek: . The point is that we share a large border with the Iros, and if Haiwa gets Horses form somewhere, we might have to fight MW (which is possible but not real fun.) Alex could give Ragnar's forces at our northern border something to do, and Haiwa could threaten Ragnar's core. Both would help our cause.

We would be forced into 20 turns of war with Ragnar (which we should be able to handle) and 20 turns of peace with Alex (no problem) and Haiwa (well, as long as we are fighting Ragnar, we can not go for Haiwa anyway.)

What do you think, team?

- Physicist

PS: As we are already at war with Ragnar, we should take the chance to capture Stockholm.

Greece won't be a threat for a while- I believe they lack horses and so lack fast units- we'll see them coming over the mountains. I think we can probably handle the southern border after we deal with the forces surrounding Hangchow and Nanking. However, after Ragnar uses up the initial units he has up north, Alex will probably bail on the alliance. Hiawatha would be more help, but we put off taking his cities for a longer time than we'd like if we bring him in. The key is slowing Ragnar so that by the time he gets Beserks, our Riders can deal with his high production cities or at least keep him from attacking us.

Japan may not be a factor unless any alliance with Hiawatha does enough damage to tempt Tokugawa into stealing Iroquois cities while the troops are elsewhere. It'd be nice to get him annoyed at Ragnar, as those two are major tech trading partners, but it's probably unaffordable at this point.

Whatever else you do, please get us Construction and into the Middle Ages- larger cities support more under Monarchy, and getting Chivalry before the AI gets knights/bezerks/samurai is very important.

Originally posted by Borealis
Hiawatha would be more help, but we put off taking his cities for a longer time than we'd like if we bring him in. The key is slowing Ragnar so that by the time he gets Beserks, our Riders can deal with his high production cities or at least keep him from attacking us.

I agree on slowing down Ragnar. I definitely do not want to see Berserks during this war!
Do you think we could go to war with Haiwa within the next 20 turns? I am really not sure; we completely lack offensive units at the moment, and the Viking war will consume some military, too.

Originally posted by Bolis, what's your time realis

Whatever else you do, please get us Construction and into the Middle Ages- larger cities support more under Monarchy, and getting Chivalry before the AI gets knights/bezerks/samurai is very important.
I concur. I :love: markets! Large cities are crucial (eps. with our large amount of luxes) for unit support AND production.
I am not sure about researching Chivalry (or any other tech) at 1st civ prices, however. Waiting for the other civs researching it and then buying the tech usually saves a lot of money and might even slow down tech speed.
The AI is not that good with mass upgrades (fortunately, I should say).

- Physicist

I think the Iro is a good choice as they share a border with Ragnar and will absorb some of the pressure. On the other hand it is also important to keep Greece out of the war as we would then be fighting on two fronts :nono:

If possible we should ally with both, cripple Ragnar and once that is over it might be an idea to do something about Greece. They look rather large and scary right now.

Physicist,

I did a practical test on a standard map, took a late stage game, switched to communism. If you were to do a similar test I think you will find that the difference between the OCN and 2*OCN is only about a difference of about 5% corruption and waste in each city. The FP is extremely important (as with all forms of Govt.) and probably saves you 5% corruption and waste nationally. Doubling you current target number of cities from 14 to 28 will probably net you about an 80% increase in total national productivity, that increase would make your late game mission a bit easier.

One more note, it seems the effects of corruption and waste are applied before your local city improvements are considered. If you want to check out the raw numbers in a test, turn the luxuries up to 100%. You are now looking at raw effects of corruption on science and taxes, as you turn down the luxuries you can see the effects of your city improvements kicking in on the numbers, it's quite impressive to see how well those improvements overcome the corruption.

Hope this helps or adds to your investigation. :)

CB

CB: Thanks. :)

Summary:

We ally with Iroquis and Greek against the Vikings. WM traded around.
The Greek lose two cities, we found one city.
We prepare for an counter-attack on Scandinavia.
The Great Wall has been built.

Report on the years 30 AC - 250 BC:

30 AD - (-1) (inherited turn)

I un-fortify spear near Tientsin; units fortified in jungle may die of disease, unfortified units not IIRC.
Beijing is not growing. MM for growth.
Entertainers (!) are fired in Nanking, Shanghai, Xinjian and Chengdu.
Xinjian, our FP site, has rax and is building a spear ?!? We must build our FP there ASAP. Switch spear to temple.
We are researching Construction at 20% ? Is this min sci ? ;)

Neither Greek nor Iroquois are willing to pay gpt to us.
We buy Construction for the Greek for Alliance vs. the Vikings, Monarchy & 189g.
As our WM is not worth much any more with all those units having passed through our territory, we buy the Iros WM for Alliance vs. the Vikings, Currency, our WM and 15g.
Afterwards, we exchange WM with Alex (who drew -as expected- Monotheism as free tech; Monotheism is -as expected- not affordable for us).
We exchange WM with Toku and then with the other civs again, gaining 24g in total.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-30AD.jpg

I turn off research. No need to start a min sci research as we will not be able to wait 40 turns for one of the techs currently available now (Monotheism, Feudalism, Engeneering)

(I) The Vikings take Sparta.

50 AD - (0)
We buy a Greek worker for 5 gpt & 22g.
(I) The Vikings take Mycenae :( . We kill the Viking sword near Hangchow.

70 AD - (1)
We found Chinan NE of Thebes.

130 AD - (4)
We buy a Greek worker for 112g
(I) three Iro settlers near our territory.

150 AD - (5)
Trondheim completes The Great Wall
The Japs cascade to Lighthouse and Gardens

170 AD - (6)
Ragnar is willing to talk. He knows Republic, otherwise tech parity. He would even give us a few buck for peace, but I decline.

230 AD - (9)
(I) The Vikings start Sun Tzu's

Comments to the next leader:

* The war with Scandinavia has been close to being boring. Alex does most of the fighting for us; he lost 2 cities early, but seems to be able to handle Ragnar's forces atm. I would propose to take a more active part now :D and take some cities form Ragnar (Stockholm, Thebes, Sparta, in that order). Keep in mind, we are allied with Alex and Haiwa. Cancel those alliances after 20 turns.
* Thanks to the warring, tech speed has been slow during my turns, so we have some money to play with. :) But don't spend everything, we will need it for buying techs. Ragnar has Feudalism.
* There are three swords and 2 horses in Canton, all unmoved except for one sword which lack 1/3 move. I intended to capture Stockholm with those. Stockholm is defended by at least 2 reg spears.
If we decide to capture Stockholm, we should discuss if we want to raze it or not. Razing would make Ragnar furious forever. I would propose capturing it, starving it to size one, and then abandon it at size 3 (with 1 Scandinavian and 2 Chinese nationals it will be a Chinese city, so no rep hit for us).
There is a settler unmoved/fortified at Canton for settling white dot (permanent city!)
* There is an unmoved settler and two fortified spears at former Mycenae location. I considered settling there, up open for discussion. May annoy Alex...
* At least two Iroquois two settler pairs are crossing our territory, heading north. We might consider asking them to leave.
* We have an unmoved galley (our first !) at Chengdu.
* Macao has finished temple. I would propose to build a granary there, maybe rush-supported (and cutting down the forest tiles), then start FP there immediately. The earlier, the better.
* We will need some settlers for junk cities etc, but keep Beijing above 6. Maybe we should start a prebuild there instead. Nanking, Shanghai and Xinjian could supply us with the one or other settler.
* We have incredible FIVE NATIVE LUXURIES online. IIRC, I have never controlled that many luxes without war...

@Team for discussion:
Should we start a prebuild at Beijing? Only Gardens is available, and there was already a cascade to the Gardens...

Good luck to you, Harleqin! :)

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-250AD.zip

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
Architect >>> on deck
Borealis
(open)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-250AD.jpg

I see it and I got it. Am on my way to work right now and have guests in the afternoon and evening, so I might need the full 48 hours on this.

Ah, the forum is back at last. I lost access to the last few posts, so I had to rely on memory and gut feelings.
For a brief summary, we now have 3 new cities, all taken from the Vikings, and two cases of weed..... I think :eek:

Well, things have heated up a bit since last time. We are at war with Ragnar and allied with Alex and Hia. We have 9 turns to go on the alliance so I can only rewrite the words of Chamberlain a bit and say “No Peace In Our Time!”
Offensively we have 3 swords, 4 horses, an archer and a few warriors. Oh, dear. That is about one fourth or fifth of what I would have liked to have. I’d better focus on troop building, mainly horses as they upgrade to our glorious riders and later to cavalry.

Preturn: I decide to hire a scientist in Shanghai and move toward Engineering. It should be tradable for Feudalism later. It doesn’t change the time to build horsemen. I do a little shuffle at Macao to shave three turns of the granary. The lower growth now will be regained when it is built. I move troops toward Stockholm.

Turn 1 (260 AD): Heavy Jap troop movement south of Macao. Ragnar is going to get it soon. Our troops invade Scandinavia heading for Stockholm. When captured we will recreate the infamous Stockholm bloodbath that Denmark made some centuries ago upon capturing it. I move in on the border near the town. I note that Greece has monotheism and everybody have the republic, but they are too poor to pay well if we try to trade.

IBT: Our galley barely survives a barbarian attack.

Turn 2 (270 AD): We attack and capture Stockholm though a horse and a sword moves into the red. And just in time too as there are four Iro units ready to attack as well. I start moving units toward Anyang. I want to take Thebes later.

IBT: Greece retakes Sparta.

Turn 3 (280 AD): We start selling Ivory to the Iro for their WM, 30 gold and 3 gpt. I notice that they lack iron. That is certainly good news.They do have a source once Akwasane expands though. We have no trade route with the Greeks. I’ll see to it.

IBT: Not much.

Turn 4 (290 AD): Beijing builds temple. A barracks is ordered up. We need vet troops. Desert Junk builds a settler. I decide to start a barracks though we want to avoid buildings there. For troop production it will pay off in the long run though. A rogue Scandinavian archer is slain near Anyang. I’m not sure what to do with the forces in Stockholm. In the end I decide to let them heal and then trail the Iro advance into Scandinavia.

IBT: The Iro kill one unit and lose one against the Vikings. Kyoto builds the Hanging Gardens.

Turn 5 (300 AD): Temple constructed in Xinijan. I start a marketplace as the city is size 10 and could use the added boost from a WLTKD. The Vikings have just started building Sun Tzu. I notice we have a settler under the spears near Athens. Blast. I thought that was three spears. I would like an aggressive settlement there. I do not fear the Greeks. I try to access our battleplans at the CivFanatic Bunker only to find the site down. Not good. Well, build or not…. For the moment I choose not to. If a city was intended there, then it wouldn’t have been fortified.

IBT: Silent….

Turn 6 (310 AD): Beijing completes the barracks and starts on horsemen. I want six ready before attacking Thebes.

IBT: Copenhagen captured by the Iro’s.

Turn 7 (320 AD): Hangchow starts an aquaduct so it can grow after building a courthouse.

IBT: Japs settle Yokohama south of Macao.

Turn 8 (330 AD): With a barracks now present in Desert Junk I set it to spearmen. We attack and capture Odense with no losses. Two spearmen and an archer are slain. Surprisingly we get no promotions. I do notice that I’m dragging a REGULAR swordsman around. Where did he come from?

IBT: Hia offers us wine in exchange for ivory and 5 gtp. Well, actually we don’t need it mate. What will you offer for our ivory? Odd though…. I thought we were already selling it to him. He is willing to offer us 5gtp. It will boost his happiness and I think it is worth more. As a small consolation I sell him our TM for his WM and 2 gold.
The Vikes want to talk but I need one more turn before I can make peace. In reply they kill one of our horses.

Turn 9 (340 AD): Forces are ready near Thebes and I see Greek swords approaching. Throwing caution to the wind we attack and ….. we CAPTURE it. With the last attacker! Three cities gained. I think we might consider peace now. We wont get more now as it will just overstretch our lines. I cancel our alliances as the twenty turns are up and then order Ragnar to Beijing for negotiations. Peace is no problem, but for Feudalism we have to pay either 550 gold or 30 gpt. The first is the cheapest in the long run and will keep our reputation even if he is destroyed. I have serious doubts over what to do here. In the end I give him the gold. We will have it all back in just 6 turns. We are now at peace. I then sell it around. I can’t use Greece as we would have to pay first rates for it….and we’ve just paid a lot to the Vikings. I suddenly realized that the purchase during peace might be weed as no-one else knows it. I just overpaid for it. Whoops. The Iro’s give us wines, 9 gpt, 50 gold a a WM. From Greece and Japan we only get pennies, but better us than them. I’m still unhappy with the weed, but I had to make the best of it once I discovered it. I will continue the build-up of forces as the other nations are upset that we pulled out of the war.

IBT: Blast. The peace causes unhappiness in two cities. I really should have caught that one.

Turn 10 (350 AD): Nothing much. I start gathering troops at Thebes and Xinijan for the eventual wars that may come later.

Sorry about the two weeds I made (at least I only found two). I hope the conquest of three cities will help.
I think we should let the AI fight and waste their resources now while we build out strength and prepare for Riders.

The mighty Chine (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-350AD.ZIP )

Harleqin, looks like a good set of turns to me. Don't worry about the weed, that happens to all (or at least most) of us (especially me) from time to time.
Let me comment on three points in your report: Sorry about the fortified settler. I fortified it to "get it out of my way" during the last turn w/o moving it. Then I forgot about unfortifying it over all the other units. I hinted at it in the report and proposed to settle at former Mycenae location, but the forums seemed to be down, so you could not read my report. Bad planning *and* bad luck. I apologize for the former. (BTW, there is still settler in Canton)
I did not start a min research as we will need Education before the 40 (now 30) turns are over. Economy might be a min sci target in the future IMO.
The reg sword was Canton's MP warrior. I upgraded it as we had two (or more, I don't remember) spears there, but we needed more troops for the eventual attack on Stockholm. Usually I try to avoid upgrading reg units, but in this situation it seemed viable for me.
I did consider building 'rax in Beijing, too. I decided against it as I suggested that we would start a prebuild for Sistine there. Then 'rax would only cost money w/o giving benefit.

@team: How to proceed with wonders building? In our early discussion, Architect proposed to avoid the military wonders (Sun Tzu's & Leo's) AND the use of Riders in order to trigger our Golden Age in the Modern Era (Golden Age Communist Space Ship). Or do we prefer to use our Riders, thus aiming for, say, Sistine and Sun Tzu's.
I personally would slightly tend to go the second way (I love Riders) but am open for discussion and willing to go other ways. :)
What wonders are we aiming at? If we want to go for Sistine, we should start a prebuild soon IMHO.

- Physicist

Architect: >>> Up now
Borealis: >>> on deck

Ah well, things don't look that bad anymore after some sleep. I think we should take advantage of our Riders and hopefully before the Iro get iron online. With them having Copenhagen it might not be possible anymore though. I see them as our biggest threat militarily, but the Greeks as the major threat scientifically. I would probably sweep south first with about 30 riders and go for the boost of a Golden Age. With a good show now we can set ourselves up for a relatively easy ride in the industrial age.

Originally posted by Harleqin
Ah well, things don't look that bad anymore after some sleep.
We are in a quite decent shape.

Originally posted by Harleqin
I would probably sweep south first with about 30 riders and go for the boost of a Golden Age.
I thought about that, too. However, I would be glad to hear Architects opinion. He is the most experienced player in this groop (I hope I can state that without offending any of the other team members :)), and he proposed the startegy of "delayed GA".

Originally posted by Harleqin
the Greeks as the major threat scientifically.
Here I mildly disagree for two reasons:
* Our government(s) will sooner or later cripple our research capabilies. I would expect us to fall behind most of the other civs in that respect.
* Look at Alex' land. A lot of worthless tundra, and his cities are steched out on a long and thin area. Not good corruption-wise. Even with scientific & commercial trait, I would expect other civs to be stronger researchers.
BTW, during my reign, I have heard rumours about another, yet unmet civ called the French. Their capitol Paris is the most admired city in the world, more famous and well known than any other city. Travellers tell that Paris houses one of the greatest wonders of the World, the Great Pyramids. Maybe we have not yet met the top researcher?

- Physicist

Save file link is bad but I was able to find it.

Got it.

Odd..... it should be good enough. Hmm.... I'll have a look at it and edit it in. Good thing you found it.

Edit: Fixed. Accidentally put in a \ instead of a / :rolleyes:

350AD(0) - We are currently at peace with everyone we know. We haven't met France or Babylon and it would probably be advantageous for us to make contact first. I veto the temples in Shatung and Tientsin and rush galleys. We need as much economy as possible so I veto some things and switch to marketplaces.

360AD(1) - Going to try and found a city near Thebes as there is some really nice land.

370AD(2) - Our first suicide galley ventures forth. Engineering has been traded around to everyone. Greece won't part with Monothesism. Two more marketplaces rushed.

380AD(3) - our suicide galley survives. I sight sea squares. If we survive another turn we will probably find the french and babs soon. Our second suicide galley ventures forth. We are at +133gpt.

IT: One suicide galley dies but the other survives!

390AD(4) - Woohoo, our galley finds new land! I go ahead and found the hill city for now as the greeks were just going to take it.

400AD(5) - WLTKD from a marketplace helps corruption in Tatung.

IT: Tokyo completes the great lighthouse.

410AD(6) - Still no sign of France or Babs.

420AD(7) - Ningpo is founded in what I think would be a pretty good FP location (once the greeks are gone of course).

430AD(8) - Still no movement on techs. We are at +153gpt.

440AD(9) - I'm moving groups of workers over to the thebes Ningpo area as that needs the most development now.

450AD(10) - Start a palace prebuild for some wonder in Shanghai.

Well a pretty uneventful set of turns. Lots more horseman built. I improved the efficiency of some of our towns by using irrigation and mined hills more effectively. I built marketplaces everywhere that made sense and our per turn income is up like +50. Try to get WLTKD in most of our cities for improved corruption. We'll need that in communism too.

Our second land mass looks to be an empty continent. :( We'll need more suicide galleys quick to beat japan to the french and babs now. We're going to have to do something about techs soon but nothing major is really pressing. With our high luxury count I would say that Sistene and JS are unnecessary. If say shoot for economics and get Smiths.

As for GA, I say hold off on it until the space race just for kicks. We can make nice with our neighbors and ride out the middle ages waiting for calvary before removing the greeks.

450AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-450ad.zip)

Got it. It'll either be later this morning or tomorrow afternoon, depending on whether I get enough time to finish it before going home for Spring Break.

Architect votes for saving our GA for Space Race, Harleqin prefers to make use of Riders. I have not made a decision yet, but the more I think about it, the more I like the roleplaying element of a "Space Race GA".

Borealis: What is your opinion?

Concerning the OCN discussion: Unforunately, I lack the time to play with the corruption formula. I would propose to continue the way we have started, without exactly sticking to the OCN of 14 cities (I never planned to go for exactly 14 cities, actually). Let's aim at something like 15-20 cities and see what happens under Communism. Just keep in mind to reduce overlap of permanent cities.
- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist >>> on deck
Harleqin
Architect
Borealis >>> up
(open)

Space Race GA, unless disaster happens, is what I will play for. Keep a Rider around to attack an 1 hp unit if we need to trigger it earlier due to the AI going too fast, but not building Rider SoDs unless forced to (the AI dogpiles, etc.) Speaking of the GA, I'll check on the wonders we currently own, and progress on the ones we want when I play. Smith's would be a _wonderful_ thing to have anyway, boosting our income and thus our research rate, while giving us free happiness from markets, and we should try to get that even if it means losing Sistine or Bach's to the AI. I agree with Architect in the 'wait for cavalry' idea.. build up existing infrastructure and improve terrain now, and then later overrun the AI before they can build too many rifles.

However, if Greece is our first target, we'll have to be agressive about obtaining MT, as they'll probably get Nationalism for free = rifles faster than everyone else. A mass upgrade sounds like the best bet... Architect mentions 'many horses' and I'm wondering how many cav we want to invade Greece? We'll probably have to blitz to avoid a long war and rifles once we get MT, and take the top few Greek cities immediately. I lack experience in late Middle Ages/Industrial invasion at this level, and I'm not sure how many more horses/riders I should build for upgrading purposes. Also, how much cash does it take to upgrade a horse to a cav? We'll want to cash-rush buildings as much as possible before we make the swap to a glorious Communist government, and timing the cav rush makes having the cash on hand to upgrade within a turn or two essential.

Space Race GA then.

Upgrading Horse to Cav should be 100g, Rider to Cav 20g IIRC. That's a difference when talking about some dozens of upgrades. We could build Riders instead of Horses and upgrade those to Cavs. We should have the producton power for that (we are talking about a war in more than half an age). Of course we would not use those Riders unless being under attack by an AI. As a side note, a strong Rider force might deter the AI from going to war with us. Your opinions?

BTW, we will be able to build Riders if we have not had our GA yet, even when Riders are outdated. (Playing the Aztecs, I used a strategy of building Jags and immediately upgrading them to swords in The2, successfully fighting off a Chinese (!) sneak attack. This was possible until our GA was triggered.)So triggering a late GA via UU victory will always be possible, even if we upgrade all our Riders/Horses to Cav for a war.

- Physicist

I've come down with the flu, and have just recovered enough to go near the computer, but I won't be able to play and post until Monday night. If Physicist wants to pick it up and play, go ahead- I haven't done more than just barely look at the situation in the inherited turn.

Borealis: I am sorry to hear that. I hope you will recover soon.

We could change places in the roster for this time. I am currently at work, but I will take it around 5 pm GMT and try to play the same night (Monday). You could take it then (and play Monday night, too :crazyeye: ).

If you prefer to be skipped, please drop a note.

EDIT: Got it.

- Physicist

Physicist: up
Borealis: on deck

Everything looks good. I only decide to veto the granary in Canton. I know, population is power, but Canton (currently size 7), will be stuck at size 8 (or oszillate between size 8 and 9 if we allow for that). No need for a granary in this junk city.

Diplo check: Everyone we know has Engeneering (and Republic), Greece additionally has Montheism.

Report on the years 450 AC - 250 BC:

470 AD - (2) (inherited turn)
I rush the Library in Ningpo (7 tiles of overlap) for 308g.

500 AD - (5)
Courthouse is rushed in Ningpo, Temple in Hill Junk.
(I) Greece and Scandinavia make peace. This should speed up tech pace..

510 AD - (6)
New Stockholm is founded in white dot location.
(I) Stockholm is abandoned.

520 AD - (7)
Granary rushed in Ningpo.
Monotheism has been traded around, but Sandinavia lacks it ! We could get Monoth. from Japan for something like 340g, 150 gpt :eek: and Ivory. This is about everything we have to offer. The AIs don't seem to like our gpt. :(

540 AD - (9)
We renew our Wine deal with Iroquois (we don't want to be at war with Mounted Warriors).
Finally, we have enough cash to buy Monotheism. We buy it from Alex for 608g.
And, guess what: Ragnar still lacks it! We could either sell it for WM & 6g (all his cash), or we could get Engineering for Month., Ivory & 19g. Our min. research on Engineering would still take 11 turns. I decide to buy Engineering.
Our scientist is fired as we can not wait 40 turns for any of the availabe techs (Theology, Invention). Shanghai's lone scientist is fired. We gain 1g, and our palace prebuild will complete one turn earlier.
Two suicide galley are started. One of them spots a coast! However, both of them are lost :(

550 AD - (10)
Alex has Invention, but no one else.

Comments to the next leader:
* There is one galley near Themopylae in Greek waters, exploring S and E.
* Several cities (namely New Stockholm, Chinan & Odense) would need a rushed temple. Currently we lack the cash...
* Quiet turns with low tech speed. We are nearly on tech parity, only Alex knows Invention.
* There is coast SE of the unsettled island.
* Macao has started building FP. But see the comments/discussion below. Maybe you have to change that.
* I did not start a min research as we can not wait 40 turns for any of the techs. Banking or Economics might be a min research target in the near future.

General comments:
IMPORTANT: We should decide about the Forbidden Palace site NOW. I see three possibilities:
(1) Macao (which I initially suggested as FP site)
(2) Ningpo (Architect's proposal)
(3) Nanking
Geographically (1) would be the best site if we go for the Iros next, (2) if we go for Alex. From the last discussions I guess that most of you see Greece as our next target, which would mean (2). (From its location on the continent, Greece looks like our "natural" target: it is weak, and conquering Alex would remove a permanent threat from our "back door".) However, (2) is still quite small (size 3 and more than 50% corrupt w/ court) and would take some time to build the FP. An alternative might be (3), which is (as (1)) a large city that could finish the FP in 17 turns; less cities would benefit from that location (under Monarchy), of course.

What is your opinion?
I personally would tend to go for Greece next, thus skipping the FP in Macao. However, in this variant, "the earlier the better" is very true for the FP, so I am not completely sure about Ningpo. (EDIT: Not meant as offense against Architect, of course. Before his comment about Ningpo, I had only thought about Macao as FP site.) Remember, under Communism the location of our FP does not matter, we only need to have it. Thus, the earlier we get it, the more we will benefit.

Please post your comments!

Good luck to the next player! :) Borealis, take it if you feel "fit" enough.

Screenshot to follow later.

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-550AD.zip

Roster:
Borealis >>> up now
Harleqin >>> on deck
Architect

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1-550ad.jpg

Borealis still seems to be ill (Best wishes to you, Borealis :) ). Thus, Borealis is skipped and we return to the old roster; Harleqin is up.

Harleqin: There was no discussion about FP placement, so decision is up to you. If you do not want to make the decision, I would propose go the way our most experienced player, Architect, proposed (FP in Ningpo).

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
Architect >>> on deck
Borealis
(open)

I got the game, but isn't playing yet. I'm not sure about Ningpo. It would take too long to build there and I think that Macao will be a better area once we get the jungle out of the way. Even though the buildtime is shorter in Macao, the area around Ningpo will gain more from it and sooner simply because of the amount of work we need to do in the Macao region.
I'll need a better look at the savefile first.

Originally posted by Harleqin
I got the game, but isn't playing yet. I'm not sure about Ningpo. It would take too long to build there and I think that Macao will be a better area once we get the jungle out of the way. Even though the buildtime is shorter in Macao, the area around Ningpo will gain more from it and sooner simply because of the amount of work we need to do in the Macao region.
I'll need a better look at the savefile first.
:confused: I am not quite sure if I understand your post correctly. Did you perhaps exchange the last two city names in your last sentence?

Nevertheless, I think both ways are viable, especially as under Communism, FP location does not matter at all.

- Physicist

Sorry. It was early. I think a FP in Ningpo will take longer to build but yield instant results.
A FP in Macao will be quicker to build, but we will need to clear the jungle and get control of the area before being able to get the most out of it.

Preturn: The first major decision is locating a spot for the FP. While it won’t be built in my time the time spent on it may cause us to lose shields on other projects if it is later swapped. I see value in both Macao and Ningpo. Ningpo would give us a better result once built, but it will take close to forever to build it there. Still, it might prove good in the end of the game so I switch Macao to a Library and start the FP in Ningpo.
The techrate is extremely slow. We are down by republic and the Greeks also have invention. But that’s it! I hire a scientist to work on our behalf.
I start a few libraries and switch Tientsin to a courthouse. The same is done in Thebes.

Early turns: Nothing much though invention got spread around. The Japanese start building the workshop in 570 AD. I test the price which is 700 gold and WM if we buy in Greece and a bit more in Japan…. But no matter what they wont accept ivory as part of the deal. I decide it is still too expensive since we can’t make a profit on trading it around.
A red border is spotted!!! Sadly the galley sinks before contact is made. It is to the east of us, just north of the uninhabited island.

Middle turns: More quiet turns. Some more galleys go down in the ocean. There is obviously no Columbus in our nation. Sailing west from the Greek border a pink border colour is spotted. The Greeks start building Leo’s in 630 AD.

Late turns: We meet France! She has contact with the Babylonians. She already has republic but lack both theology and engineering. I decide to sell her the latter tech. As a small thank-you she gives us her WM, contact with the Babs, 30 gold and 22 gpt. Yikes…she is strong. The Babs only have two cities left. I establish an embassy and then contact Hammurabi. Paris is building Sun Tzu with 33 turns left. They have two luxes, iron and horses. Babylon has a single incense. He is even further behind so in a weak moment I sell him mathematics for three gold… his entire treasury. I d NOT sell the contacts to anyone else.
The Vikings start building Sun Tzu. Perhaps we should too?

Notes to next leader: I have not traded out new contacs away, but you might want to do so. We are not currently building Sun Tzu. We should be able to get invention at a discount. A prebuild is well on the way in Shanghai.
I’ve also stopped production of Horsemen. If we can’t use Riders then I doubt we will want too many around unless we want a heavy war with cavalry units.


China (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-650ad.ZIP)

Harleqin: :goojob:

(We, well, sort of decided not to go for military wonders like Sun Tzu's as we don't want Hoover to trigger our GA.)
If the AI can not reach the other continent, we should not sell contacts.

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin
Architect >>> up now
Borealis >>> on deck

Oh dear Phys.... just spotted your PM now...well....at least it is still less than two weeks old :LOL:

Got it.

Haven't started yet but just saw the 1.21 patch was out. I want to upgrade before I play. Anyone have a different opinion?

1.21 is for the US only.
You may make the game not usable for the not US players.

Please don't patch... I have another SG running with 1.14, and might play the GOTM-Carthage in 1.14. The MP changes won't affect us, and we can live with the others... I'd like to finish this SG on the current patch.

I am not partching. I'm on the European version

Personally, I am open to both ways. Phys1 is currently my only game.

With two people voting for not patching, and especially Harleqin unable to patch, I want to ask Architect: Would you be willing to continue without patching?

- Physicist

I've been waiting for this patch to try multiplayer again with my nephew over the internet so I really don't want to wait as we have a chance to play this weekend.

Skip me for now until everyone else is patched. I'm clearly in the minority here and this game should continue as 1.14.

Got it, then.

650 AD (0): Foreign advisor shows a lot of angry faces, but we're only one tech behind: Invention. Checking tech prices, I decide to speed it along, in hopes of saving time more than money- as we don't have the Great Library, it's in our best interests to get Universities ASAP. 660 gold is the going rate for it, from Alex as the Commercial civ with it. Calculating the tech rate at not denting our treasury- researching Invention in 7 turns ourselves means +11gpt down from +169gpt. Multiplying 158 by 7 yields 1106 gold, and adding in the initiative lost by getting universities long after everyone (if the AI is smart and goes the Education route), I decide to make the purchase. The 40turn rate isn't feasible when you won't be able to trade anything for it for a long time (France is broke), and the other AI civs hate you and love each other. We start researching Theology instead, in 10 turns- we'll want to grab either or both of Sistine and Bach's, and hopefully Smith's. Plus, if we somehow get Education first, trading it will kill Japan's Great Library advantage if the AI takes the low road on the tech tree.

City views show happy faces. There is a Palace prebuild in Shanghai due in 20 turns that I won't get to touch, but I note its existence- with so many AI civs building it with a lead, we just won't get Leo's, and we don't want Sun Tzu's. Sistine may or may not cascade, depending on AI research paths.

Temples hurried: Chinan, New Odense, Shantung, Tientsin, New Stockholm, and Odense. Cheap cathedrals and universities will soon push at our borders, and we want to keep our territory intact. In order to emphasize our gpt advantage, we need to push infrastructure in our cities, and avoid cultural flips. As it is, building culturally is a good idea- France has way, way too much culture for me to be entirely comfortable with, and may require a late-game expedition to raze & resettle to avoid a 100K loss- they have almost 2x that of Japan already, and only face a few straggling Babylonian cities for cleanup detail.

Xinjian and Anyang, at size 12, are building a granaries when they can't grow any more and there are vital improvements left to build. :smoke: Superfluous pikeman builds elsewhere, and the granaries, are swapped to libraries- we want to be able to build universities when we get them, and we have more than enough defenders for now. Later, when we ride into Greece, we might want to build a few more for the newly conquered/settled cities, but for now it's just more upkeep. We're paying 60gpt for income, and until we go to war, most of that is wasted.

Workers are mostly doing a fine job, with a few questionable mountain developments taking place in some cities without the population growth to use them. Once the workers build a road to get out, they'll do something else.

660 AD (1): Normal build queue changes, all focusing on infrastructure except Desert Junk, whose sole purpose seems to be a worker factory. Galley fortified near Greek territory, and another sent to Shantung, as we can't explore much more without Astronomy.

670 AD (2): Nothing unusual. Vikes have Chivalry now- they look to be almost gassed, as one of their core cities has fallen to Hiawatha, but if they can bring in Japan with Samurai the tide might turn.

680 AD (3): :sleep:

690 AD (4): :sleep:

(IT): Iros want alliance vs. Vikes... not likely.

700 AD (5): Suddenly, Chivalry and Gunpowder are widespread... apparently, at least some of the AI have gone the southern route. Hiawatha lacks Gunpowder this turn, but buying it from the others would have been too expensive, even had I passed on rushing the temples.

710 AD (6): :sleep:

720 AD (7): :sleep:

730 AD (8): We discover Theology, and the Palace build in Shanghai is switched to Sistine, due in 6- there are probably no other wonders we'd use it for, as I think Leo's will go soon. Sistine is more useful for us, and if anything, will be good to deny to the AI. We start Education at max non-deficit research.

(IT): I have to add some cash to the deal, but our 2-for-1 lux deal with Hiawatha continues.

740 AD (9): :sleep:

750 AD (10): Watch the price for Theology on the trade deals- pulling up the foreign advisor should see it automatically on the table, and if the price drops precipitously, do a trade for Gunpowder if at all possible, and make sure you get something from it after the first trade from Japan, who will get it for free on the next turn. Education is currently due in 9 turns- when you get it, unless there's nothing available to shop it for, milk the Japanese for all they're worth and take out the Great Library. Once we get to Economics and can do a 40-turn, or at least slower-paced, research period, rush courthouses in cities that don't have them and rush aqueducts. Every city except Desert Junk should at least have a temple, market, and aqueduct soon, to keep the money flowing. Let the cathedrals build, as we want buffers for possible foreign lux loss, and/or swap them to universities when we get them. Once we get banks, and nab Smith's, we'll have this empire in good shape for a worker's revolution.

Edit: The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-750AD.zip), now that the upload server is working.

The Middle Kingdom (of workers), 750 AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_ad750.JPG

Got it.

Harleqin is on deck.

@team: General Comments:
* As long as we are down to three players, you might play 20 turns instead of 10 turns, as you see fit.
* I would suggest to patch as soon as the EU patch is out, giving Architect a chance to come back. Harleqin, please have an eye on the EU patch subject for us and post a note when it is released. We will then discuss the matter again.

Status of the Empire

Things look very good. Markets and Cathedrals being build in most cities. I only make some minor changes: Canton is a JUNK CITY (and is named "Canton Junk" from now on to remember that). Library canceled. The same is true for "Xinjian Junk" (does not need a Cathedral).

Although I am not a hugh fan of researching on Emperor during the Middle Ages (buying is cheaper, and you do not need the libs/univs), I will follow your plan to beeline to banks & Smith's, both are highly desirable. However, we definitely should turn off research afterwards. We will need some money to cash-rush some improvements before Communism.

Report on the years 750 AD - 850 AD: (some quiet turns again)

790 AD - (4)
(I) WE COMPLETE SISTINE CHAPEL in Shanghai. Palace prebuild for Smith's started immediately.

800 AD - (5)
Both Japan and Iroqouis seem to make progress on researching Theology as the price dropped (the completion of Sistine also has an influence, but the other civs are still willing to pay high prices for it, only Japan and Iroquois have dropped the price).
We sell Theology to Scandinavia for Gunpowder, WM, 1gpt & 18g. We discover that Greece has a Monopoly on Chemistry. Alex is not willing to sell that to us. In expectation of the discovery of Education in four turns (new trading possibilities), I decide to trade Theo around.
To Greece for Chivalry, WM & 46g.
To France for WM, 5 gpt & 30g
To Iroquios for WM & 21g
To Japan for WM & 20g

810 AD - (6)
We have three Salpeter within our territory, but only one connected. I do not connect those sources right now as unconnected resources do not get exhausted.
We start Rider production (we already have 30 horses).

820 AD - (7)
(I) Kyoto completes Sun Tzu's.

840 AD - (9)
We research Education, start Banking. Science up 10% to 50%, due in 11 turns.

Comments to the next leader:
* Smith's prebuild in Shanghai. Smith's is completed 5 turns earlier than palace, i.e. it will be completed in 27 turns.
* Banking is due in 10 turns (making few negative gpt). We should start Economics right after Banking and we should time to invention of Economics to that date (i.e. one or two turns earlier). Many AI cities are building Leo's and Sun Tzu's. I expect the cascade to end before Smith's is available, but who knows...
I would propose to research Banking ASAP (+-0gpt), then reduce science funding during the Economics project. PLEASE TURN OFF RESEARCH AFTER ECONOMICS.
* Alex has a monolopy on Chemistry, we have a monopoly on Education. Don't sell it immediately, we have got it since 2 turns only.
* We have a lot of production power, but lack money (we *must* collect some cash for cash-rushing before Communism and upgrading to Cavalry (100g each horse IIRC)). Do not upgrade unit (spear, pike), but build muskets from scratch and disband spears into high corruption cities. I have already replaced and disbanded (all of ?) the reg spears and the warriors.

Good luck to you, Harleqin! :)

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-850AD.zip

Roster:
Harleqin >>> up now
Borealis >>> on deck

I got it. Hopefully I can play later tonight. I'll keep my eye open for trades. I suppose we want to cash in on Education before the AI get's hold of it. My experience with that kind of trading is not optimal, but I'll spend some extra time during the turns to avoid making a mess of anything :)

Well, only a short report this time as I’m rather strapped for time, but I reckon that a short report with a note of the highlights are better than a skip.


Preturn: Things look fine. No changes.

Early turns: Nothing much to do. No reasonable trades available. I don’t upgrade to muskets as I want to preserve cash for Rider upgrades later. I note the Greeks lack saltpetre though a border expansion at Delphi might steal one of our four sources. Japan and the Iro do have sources. The Japs lack horses though. Japan acquires Chemistry early, but it is still too expensive at 3-civ prices. We complete the FP boosting the northeast.

Middle turns: Yawn. Musket production started. I start a University in Hangchow. Not for the science, but for the culture. If we want to maintain control of the saltpetre source then we are going to need it.

Late turns: I notice the Vikings are still fighting the Iro and I spot a berserker slay a sword. They are definitely in their GA now. We learn Banking. Economics started. It will take 10 turns at +15 gpt. It will be learned during the next players turn. We lose our Iro wines. We can get them back, but it would cost a contact. We can also get Chemistry now at a better rate as it is spreading around, but I’m leaving it to the next players. Leo’s is build in Paris.

Riders are concentrated in Nanking and New Stockholm. Science slider checked every turn for optimal research. Interesting though that if it weren’t for the variant rules I think we could easily conquer the Greeks and wipe them out. Sadly it would trigger the GA we’re trying to avoid.
Check out diplomacy for deals on Chemistry. We should still hold a monopoly on Education, but it might be time to trade it. We also have monopoly on our two contacts.

Sorry for the short and jumbled report, but I’m strapped for time and in a civ3 hole at the moment. Motivation is hard to find as I seem to be extremely low on energy. Hope it will get better in about ten days when I have a week off from work. I need to recharge my internal batteries.

The game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-950AD.zip)

Got it. I'll try to play 20, and at least 10.

You guys have been doing well... maybe *too* well?

Seems you won't be able to really assess Communism because you'll have achieved an overwhelming position before you get there.

Arutha: We are indeed quite strong; the lucky distribution of lux resources helped a lot. Without the variant rules, we could conquer our continent (quite) easily and would be in a good shape for Domination.

Well, maybe I should have made made the game Deity and not Emperor? Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see the course of the game under Communism. I expect our research to suffer significantly after the government change.

- Physicist

950 AD (0): Everything looks good.

960 AD (1): We currently have 30 horsemen, which means 3K gold to up them. Our Riders should be fine- as of this turn we have 18. I'm going to cap it at 20, when we get two more, and build a few muskets for now- even if the Greeks reclaim that saltpeter source, we should have no trouble conquering them with 30+ cav. Beijing and Nanking are set to build banks instead- with Smith's, maintenance will be free, and we need more cash.

970 AD (2): Trade time- interturn, Chemistry and Education were swapped to most people, and several civs look to be researching Banking. Banking + 41 gold gets me Chemistry and Printing Press (only bought for trade purposes) from Japan. Education to Ragnar gets WM, 5gpt, 9 gold, and an Iroquois worker. Education to Hiawatha gets Wines +22 gold, probably catapulting us into WLTCD. Joanie gives me WM + 23gpt + 103 gold for Education. Alex has a monopoly on Metallurgy, but lacks Saltpeter- maybe he will also go for Military Tradition? Of course, 2nd civ prices are too expensive.

980 AD (3): :sleep:

990 AD (4):

(IT): Japan's galley attacks ours, and they declare war! Their galley doesn't even win, and ours goes to spend a turn healing.

1000 AD (5): Hmmm... we probably don't want to pay Japan for the war at the end, as they are far enough ahead that doing so might mean significant losses, and a multi-AI alliance would be a Bad Thing (tm). With this in mind, I see that Hiawatha and Ragnar are behind in tech.. and get them into alliances using Printing Press! Alex requires a World Map as well, but doesn't have Navigation yet, meaning no suicide galleys, and would probably find Joanie immediately upon getting Navigation.
Yes, buying Printing Press from Japan for an extra 41 gold was worth it.

This could actually turn out rather well... Japan has samurai, so won't get gobbled up too quickly, and Greece will hold off on trading for them for as long as they honor the alliance. This cancels Japan's RoP with Iroquois and Scandinavia, limiting their ability to strike back at us with Samurai. I don't plan any offensive action other than maybe pillaging to cement the alliance, as we are saving our units for Greece. The alliance with Alex should run out with perfect timing for Military Tradition, and let him waste his shields on units.

1010AD (6):

(IT): A Japanese galley attacks one of our galleys, and is sunk. Japan really wants to get by Shantung.

1020 AD (7):

(IT): A lot of Greek units move through our territory, despite having no RoP. I'll leave them be for now.

1030 AD (8):

1040 AD (9): We discover Economics! Palace at Shanghai swapped to Smith's, due in 7. Printing Press sold to Joanie for 2gpt, 80 gold, and her WM- she's functionally broke now. No one has Astronomy yet, so I start one-scientist research on that. Once we get a bank of above 3000 gold, we'll be safe for Cavalry upgrades, and only Alex has Metallurgy right now. We're making 233gpt right now, with more once Smith's completes.

1050 AD (10): An elite spear pillages Japanese dyes near Nagoya, to make it look like we're expending military effort against Japan (if we don't do something, our rep will drop.)

1060 AD (11):

1070 AD (12):

1080 AD (13): France gets Astronomy, and we trade her Chivalry for Astronomy + 48 gold with only 4 turns of 1-scientist (at Canton Junk) research on it... she'll get Navigation, or Alex will, soon, which will end our trade monopoly, but it's nice while it lasts. 40-turn started on Physics, which the AI will probably neglect in favor of Navigation. Beijing, the highest-commerce producing city, starts Copernicus' Observatory- we should have a chance to get it before France or Greece does, as they have not started it yet.

1150 AD (20): Nothing happened... we now have over 4000 gold, and are in a good position to continue.

Edit: Server is back up and here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_1150AD.zip).

Deity ? Maybe. But I think it owes more to the fact that Communism comes so late in the tech tree. By the time it becomes available, the game has a good chance of being nearly decided. :(

And Smith's is clearly one of the top wonders in PTW... but building one of the arch symbols of Capitalism in a soon-to-be communist country? :nono:

Your research should indeed suffer a lot, but only in so far as getting a tech lead is concerned. Catch-up "research" through embassies and their "cultural attachés" on the other hand... ;)

Anyway, good luck and keep up the good job!

As far as building Smith's... once the workers take control we will rename it to Marx's Workers Collective, or something similar, to show our break from the bourgeoise ways. Although China didn't take that route, proper Marxian theory *requires* states to go through a bourgeoise, middle-class controlled period before they revolt, and this can serve as the emblem of that peroid, now under workers' control. :p

The game was too peaceful lately. I have nearly expected the AI to start a war...
Well, we should be able to handle the situation. :D

Originally posted by Borealis
As far as building Smith's... once the workers take control we will rename it to Marx's Workers Collective, or something similar, to show our break from the bourgeoise ways. Although China didn't take that route, proper Marxian theory *requires* states to go through a bourgeoise, middle-class controlled period before they revolt, and this can serve as the emblem of that peroid, now under workers' control. :p
:goodjob: Good reply! :D

Arutha: Well, the game might already be decided, and the challenge might not be the maximum possible, but it is fun, nevertheless. I have never played under Communism for a longer time, that alone makes it interesting for me, and the important point with this variant is that it get harder in the late game (standard games tend to be a challenge in the beginning and become easier in the end). IMHO, that's important for a Civ variant.


- Physicist

PS: I've "got it". Probably I will not be able to play today, but on Sunday.

I have started playing, but unfortunately was not able to finish my turns today. The game has reached a critical state and the turns require a longer amount of time to play. I will finish my turns and report tomorrow night (Monday GMT). Sorry for the delay.

- Physicist

PS: A screenshot to illustrate the "critical state" comment:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1180AD.jpg
:D Let's get ready to rumble! :hammer:

Sorry again for the late report, but both the trading in the early turns and the warring in the late turns took a large amount of time.

Status of the Empire
Everything looks good.
Rereading Borealis' report, I especially like the diplomatic consideration of 1000 AD :goodjob: - truely Bismarck-like (I mean the real Bismarck, not this Civ3 warmongerer).
We have a hugh army :D , but many outdated defenders (spears). I will begin/continue to replace them with fresh muskets.

Report on the years 1150 AD - 1250 AD:

1170 AD - (2)
Our Wine deal expires. I do not rebew it for two reasons: First, we do not need the lux, 2. nobody is willing to accept our luxes. They also do not like our gpt offers. I have already realised that during my last turns. When did we break a treaty and annoy the AI (esp Hiawa)?
Metallurgy has been traded around to Iroquois and Scandinavians. We buy it from Iroquois for Bankin, WM and 60g (by far the best price, the other two are probably researching Banking right now).
Then we sell Banking to ...
... France for WM, 16 gpt & 100g
... Scandinavia for WM, Wines and a worker (Ragnar is broke, probably due to buying Metallurgy) (ok, we end up with wines again...)
... Greece for WM, 24g & 26 gpt.

1180 AD - (3)
Interesting trade situation. There are three monopolies:
* France (Navigation => Contact with our continent)
* Greece (Military Tradition => Cavalry)
* ourself (Economics).

Looking at the timing, the situation is the following:
* France can make Contact in 4 turns, maybe in 3 turns from Babylonian sea squares. We must sell contacts before that.
* Our alliances expire in 2 turns. Then we want attack Greece with a Cav rush. As upgrading procedure takes one turn, and we have to move the Cavs into striking distance to Greece (takes another turn), I decide to make the trades now.

France: we sell Chemistry for Navigation :) (that's cheap...)
Greece: we sell Navigation & Economics for Mil. Trad. & 43g
The other guys are broke!
OK, I decide to wait a few turns and then try to sell at least the contacts for some cash.

Furthermore, we upgrade most of our Horses, Riders and Catapults this turn.

1200 AD - (5)
We cancel the alliances against the Japanese with Greece, Iroquois and Scandinavia. We make peace with the Japanese for WM and 3g.
WE DECLARE WAR ON GREECE!

The battles in 1200 AD (city / defenders / comment)
Sparta / three reg Hoplites / we take and raze it w/o losses
Athens / four reg Hoplites / we take it, losing one Cav and promiting one to elite
Ephesus / two reg Hoplites / we blitz to it and raze it w/o losses, promoting 1 Cav to elite
Argos / two reg Hoplites / no losses, 1 Cav promoted
Knossos / three reg Hoplites / no losses, 1 Cav promoted

We take out several Hoplites, Knights and one MedInf on our territory (loosing 2 swords and one Cav, however).

Diplomathy: Toku changed from Furious to Polite !!!! Looks like he does not like Alex...

(Interturn) We lose one of our exposed (elite) Cavs to a counterattack.

1210 AD - (6)
Corinth / 2 cats, 3 vet & 1 reg Hoplite / 3 promotioned Cavs; we raze it
Thermopylae / 3 reg Hoplite / no losses
Delphi / 2 reg Hoplite, 1 Longb / 2 promotions, no losses

1220 AD - (7)
Tessalonica / 2 reg Hoplites / no losses
Pharsalos / 1 reg Hoplites / 1 Cav lost

Additionally, we destroy two Hoplites and one settler that land near Pharsalos.
During the Battle of Pharsalos, our great leader K'uang-yin apprears!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1220AD.jpg

1230 AD - (8)
We take Herakleia which is defended by three reg Hoplites, and the Greek are history. The following screenshots illustrate the progress and the main event:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1230AD.jpg

The map in 1200 AD (war starts) and in 1230 AD (war ends).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1230ADmaps.jpg

(I) WE COMPLETE COPERNICUS OBSERVATORY!
The French start Bach's

1240 AD - (9)
France knows Music Theory (of course)
Japan has sent a settler pair into our territory. We ask them to leave.

Comments to the next leader:
* I was quite lazy in the last turns (the war took a lot of time to play and I wanted to finish my turns). Harleqin, please do me a favor and check diplo and the specialists/tiles/build orders of the former greek cities.
* Tech pace was slow (Alex was bothered with other poblems :D , and the other civs seem to be researching towards Democracy). I did not sell our monopoly techs in order to further slow down tech pace (otherwise our min sci research on Physics will fail (and I can not allow physics to fail ;) )). The only civ I traded the techs to was Alex (R.I.P.).
* I did not sell communications, either. Expect the AIs making contact soon. At least Japan has ships sailing around.

To the team:
* Pharsalos and Tessalonica are Junk Cities (tundra).
* We have one settler which could settle a strong city 2S of Pharsalos, but that city would need a lot of cash rushing to build it up before Communism. I am not sure if we should do that. Your comment?
* Last but not least: We have a leader (in Nanking)! What to do with him? I personally see to viable options: save him for ToE/Hoover, or rush Newton's in Beijing (Copernicus city). The latter would mean a strong deviation from our initial plan ("no research under Communism"), but why not spicing things up? Your opinions, please!

Good luck to you, Harleqin! :)

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1250AD.zip

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
Borealis >>> on deck

Our new territory in the NE:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1250ADa.jpg

... and to the NW/W:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1250ADb.jpg

Do we have a victorious army yet?

I love cav armies. They are great and can take on Infantry with good artillery support. If you stick a MA in it then its gets a new life in the modern age. :) Plus Military Academy and Heroic Epic will only help later if we have to go on a late game war to stop the other Civs from launching before us.

Originally posted by Architect
Do we have a victorious army yet?

I love cav armies. They are great and can take on Infantry with good artillery support. If you stick a MA in it then its gets a new life in the modern age. :) Plus Military Academy and Heroic Epic will only help later if we have to go on a late game war to stop the other Civs from launching before us.

No, we don't have any army yet. An army is probably a more reasonable option than Newton's. Keep in mind, however, that the war with Greece is over, so we need to start another one :eek: to get the army win.

EDIT: Thinking about it again: The Japs might declare war on us as they were sending a settler pair through our territory in 1240. Harleqin, please check if it has left.

- Physicist

PS: Yea, Cav armies are great :) . They are useful until the very end of the game.

I'm also in favour of the army and perhaps a limited war. I will not play right away so Borealis has plenty of time to offer his opinion as well.

Good job with the Greeks. We appear to be close to unstoppable. I think the worst case scenario is a Jap-Iro alliance against us...and even that shouldn't be much of a problem. I will most likely play tonight (CET).

Oh... I got it

Originally posted by Harleqin
We appear to be close to unstoppable.

:confused: what do you mean with "close to"? :D :hammer:

It was just a matter of bad preparation that we needed four turns to extinct Alex. Three turns would have been possible. I lacked 4-5 Cavs on the western front, and had about the same number of "spare" Cavs on the eastern front in the third turn.
But we should be able to live with that. ;)

- "Warmonger" Physicist

I never take things for granted where the RNG is concerned :D

Should be a good finish for us. We need to make some sort of natural preserve to keep the AI in so we can observe the effect of communism. We need to pretect the "wild life" before we accidentally cause them to become extinct ;)

Originally posted by Harleqin
I'm also in favour of the army and perhaps a limited war. I will not play right away so Borealis has plenty of time to offer his opinion as well.



That would be 'her' opinion. ;)

How are we doing on infrastructure? As long as all of our non-junk cities that are not newly conquered have banks, or are close to them, I'll go for the limited war. Remember, no cash-rushing once we get in Communism.

Also- check your map and make sure that there is at least 1 good defender in each city, as the AI stupidly sneak attacks on cities with 1 outdated defender, or worse yet, empty cities, even when it's obvious that we have :hammer: nearby. Remember that France will get Navigation, or someone will find them (same thing), soon, and Joanie will not be pleased that we're in the lead. Beware of boats on the coast.

As far as the Japan-Iro alliance threat, sufficient attention to the border, and enough offensive ships around the walled harbor city (I don't remember the name, but it's stuck out with very little land right by Japan) should do it. Tokugawa likes sending out ships in order to try capturing our 'weaker' internal cities with only two defenders- at least I think that's his logic- so keeping a fleet near him should make the situation easier.

Just some short comments:

* There is at least one defender in each town, and several Cavs in the former Greek cities, too.
* We lack a decent navy. The city Borealis is talking about (I forgot the name, too :) ) is not surrounded by ships. I sent out one of the ships in order to bust some fog.
* The lately captured cities have no infrastructure (I have just rushed temples).

- Physicist

Don't worry. I won't make a mess of it. Hmm.... perhaps a few dozen privateers is the thing :rolleyes:

Nah, never worry. And Borealis... I humbly apologize for calling you a he. I never meant to be rude. Good thing you can take it ;)

Originally posted by Harleqin
Don't worry. I won't make a mess of it. Hmm.... perhaps a few dozen privateers is the thing :rolleyes:

Hey, I just had the idea for another variant! Guess what? The only navy you are ever allowed to build (except transports) is the mighty .... ;)

- Physicist

Preturn: Right then, a lot of work to be done here. First off I check up on our cities to see what they’re up to. A few changes are made. Thessalonica and Shantung switch to barracks, Pharsalos to a temple, Hill Junk to a courthouse and Xinijan to a bank.
Next I upgrade some more pikes. We can afford it. The leader decides for a barracks though Magellan was tempting. I then fill it up with cavalry and start moving them to the border region. Finally I order the settler to the area near Pharsalos and locate the Japanese settler. I also notice that Japan is at war with the Iro and the Vikes. I will move into position before ordering the settler out. I also note that France now has music theory, but the price is too steep.

Turn 1 (1255 AD): A quiet turn. Dear me…. What a lot of workers. There is not much left for them to do until we get railroads. Ah well, I’ll manage. Cav continues to move toward the border. Ah, crap. I notice we have 14 turns remaining on peace with the Japs. Well, I’ll see if I can do anything about that.

Turn 2 (1260 AD): Troop movement continues. I’ll give Togu one more turn before the ultimatum. I notice that the city site near Pharsolos is not optimal due to either overlap with Athens or tundra squares. Well, the tundra can be used for production. I’ll take it.

Turn 3 (1265 AD): Before the turn I spot a French galley along our northern border. It is time to see what we can get for the contacts. Well, still only music theory. The AI is so badly hurting that they can’t offer us anything of great value. I decide to wait just a bit longer. I order the Japanese out and they have the guts to refuse and declare war. Very well then. War it is. The army is first and is victorious with little difficulty. Ningpo swapped to the Heroic Epic. We then sign a RoP with the Iro to get us access through their lands. The battle for St. Regis is hard as it is defended by a Samurai across a river, but the city falls into our hands. The next strike takes Nagoya with no losses but two promotions. My goal is the town of Nagasaki where the Japs have Saltpeter. Whoops… a finger slip creates a colony near Hareid. That wasn’t the plan. I move a large group of Cavalry onto a mountain near Copenhagen for defence and spot a dreaded thing… a Samurai army.

Turn 4 (1270 AD): Our troops near Copenhagen are attacked. First a Samurai dies without even scratching us, but then the army attacks. While a cav is lost the army lost half of it’s hit points and is now a sitting duck on a plain. Yikes, a French settler lands right where I wanted to found. Well, I’ll just move over one square. I found Yangchow in the north. Back to the battle. Two cavalry dies killing the enemy army, but victory goes to us. Two more cavalry dies at Izumo against an incredibly tough musketman. No kindness from the RNG so far this turn. Nagasaki is also taken in a blitz and the Japs are almost pushed back to their core now and without Saltpeter. At the end I decide to finally sell those contacts before it is too late…. And it is now :( Another galley must have met the Vikings. Not good. The only good things is that Music Theory is now spread around. The Iro also has it, but I’m not giving them Economics for it.

Turn 5 (1275 AD): No news between the turns. As we resume our offensive we capture Yokohama and no less than six workers. They will do nice in the Chinese Empire. We also take control of the iron there.

Turn 6 (1280 AD): Tours complete JS Bachs. Well, good for them. We don’t need it to be happy. Otherwise a quiet turn of solidation.

Turn 7 (1285 AD): We sink a Japanese galley and then move in on Nara butchering three muskets before losing two cav to a wounded samurai. Odd, but at least it is taken. Then, just for good measure, we also take Kagoshima. Well, Togu, I guess you should have left China when told to.

Turn 8 (1290 AD): An elite Jap samurai impales himself attacking Nara leaving us strong in the east.

Turn 9 (1295 AD): Shimoniseki is captured and so is Niagara Falls. There are close to no Japanese forces in the field. They are thoroughly gassed. There are only six Japanese settlements left and Edo is in danger of falling to our forces. The sad thing is that the Iro are just as weak. I estimate that we could take them out in 4 turns.

Turn 10 (1300 AD): A rogue Jap samurai is slain along with a longbow. Otherwise a quiet turn.

Notes: We have forces for the push in Nara and Niagara Falls. A few is also scattered in old Japanese lands, but we need muskets now for defence. I think Japan will fall easily, but peace is also an option if we want to consolidate. If not then they should fall easily soon. Both Edo and Alleghany is in range of a strike and if they fall then the two forces I’ve used for the pronged attack can combine and roll over the Japanese. I have not started a prebuild for anything as I think the techs are too far away. Note a French sword fortified in the north outside Yangchow.

The mighty Empire (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1300ad.zip)

Um, got it, but I'm not sure how long it will take- I'm up in HOT3 as well. I'll try to get the turns done tonight.

Edit: Hotrod has two games running at once now and it's messing with my head. ;)

Borealis: Take your time. As long as we are down to three players only, we should allow for some flexibility with the time schedule. Otherwise, we might all suffer from a "Communism" burnout ;) sooner or later.

- Physicist

Damn "reset message" bottom :mad:.

A samurai army :eek: ?!? Not what you want to meet on your way to work... ;)
Ehm, Harleqin: I hope the leader decided for an ARMY and not for BARRACKS. :crazyeye: ;) :D

- Physicist

Of course I mean a barracks. What better way to spend a leader than on a partially build 20-shield barracks? ;)

Of course I built an army. And the ground shook with the thunder of hooves. :)

1300 AD (0): Everything looks good, except Shimonoseki, which needs an entertainer as it will be unhappy and resisting otherwise.

(IT): Iroquois longbowmen take Allegheny.

1305 AD (1): Beijing starts the Military Academy, possibly as a prebuild for Newton's. Production at a few cities that were not previously discussed as being junk swapped to libraries & universities- we'll have to research a few techs ourselves down the road, and having them won't hurt our gpt that much. No one has started Magellan's, and so Chengdu starts it, due in 25 turns- if anything, it can serve as a prebuild.

(IT): Japan uses a few Samurai to attack... Iroquois longbowmen and pikemen.

1310 AD (2): Nanking builds the Heroic Epic. We take Edo, and in doing so a vet cav in the army promotes to elite. Please don't put non-elite units in armies, unless we're in a desperate situation, ok? :smoke: The RNG is not kind to us in taking Edo, inflicting heavy losses, but we do kill the Japanese leader, Hirohito, who appeared from the Samurai assaulting Allegheny in the interturn. Edo is not razed- this might turn out to be :smoke: but otherwise the Iroquois are able to build a settler closer, faster. The Vikings are sending Beserks across our newly conquered territory to join in on the war with Japan. Temples rushed in Shimonoseki and Yokohama.

(IT): More battling Japanese and Iroquois longbowmen.

1315 AD (3): Hiawatha only has spear defenders in Allegheny, which explains the samurai landings. We capture Tokyo with most cavs retreating, and get The Great Lighthouse, which will be useful for a very short period of time. This frees Edo up from flip risk to Japan, though it will need a temple soon to deal with Hiawatha's culture.

1320 AD (4): :sleep:

(IT): The Iroquois go after Satsuma, and effectively block the path to there once inside Japanese territory. More Japanese and Iroquois longbowmen duke it out.

1325 AD (5): Mass exodus of workers to area surrounding Tientsin/St.Regis/Nagoya as the jungle needing clearing there is really the only work they can be doing. Yes, there may be some on gotos at the end of my turn, but there's not much else for them to do, and I don't want to automate them.

(IT): Japan and Scandinavia sign a peace treaty. Hiawatha fails to take Satsuma.

1330 AD (6): Cavalry land near Satsuma in case Hiawatha mounts another ineffective offensive. Cavalry gather in Tokyo for Kyoto offensive.

(IT): Hiawatha's longbowmen are still ineffective.

1335 AD (7): We take Satsuma, losing one cav to an elite musketman, and killing ANOTHER Japanese leader, that Hiawatha generated... there's a reason to not let Hiawatha do the work for us- he sends crappy longbowmen and mounted warriors to fight, giving Tokugawa leaders. Galley spots a French city, Dijon, on the Southern Islands.

1340 AD (8):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_ad1340.JPG

Sun Tzu starts making his way back to the Chinese mainland, and will rush a wonder later- we have enough armies for now. The Japanese have two cities left, and with the Military Academy we'll be fine if we need future armies.

Eeeep... and we raze Kyoto, containing Sun Tzu's Art of War, to avoid triggering an early GA. :cry: That hurt. We get the leader and raze his namesake wonder in the same turn.

(IT): Japan sends out a settler pair; more free workers.

1345 AD (9): Our caravel kills a Japanese caravel attempting to run away, and cavs prepare to march upon Kyoto.

1350 AD (10): Sun Tzu goes to Beijing. Spears and pikes make our vet cavs retreat at Osaka :lol: but in the end...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_ad1350.JPG

This seems like a good breaking point, so I hand off the peaceful Chinese nation to its next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_1350AD.zip).

I disagree on putting only elite units in armies. The only time where I can justify it is in heavy variants or when cities are hevily defended. Against muskets as we are facing here I'd rather have an army of the leadercreating elite and two veterans. That is plenty of hitpoints. Those two remaining wont make a difference. On the other hand then those two elites I didn't put in the army has a chance of giving us a leader. No sense in wasting elite units so I don't see that as weed. If it is, then please explain why we should waste elites when we have the technical supremacy.

Also, are you sure about Magellan? I thought about starting it, but didn't because I'm pretty sure that I saw the AI was building it on the F7 screen.

Otherwise a good job taking out Japan. Oh, dear me.... look at the time. I'm supposed to be at work in less than half an hour. Better run. See ya :)

Borelais: You have made a good job during some eventful turns! :)

Concerning elites/vets in an army: I second Harleqin's arguementation. I usually put the leader-spawning elite and two vets in an army.

I am currently at work and can not download & check the file, but consider this my "got it".

- Physicist

I intended to play tonight, but after opening the file and thinking about the situation, I decided to wait. A general, strategic decision has to be made, and I want the whole team (not just me) to do that.

My main concern is the following: We currently have 41 cities, a notable amount of them (the lately conquered) quite corrupt and terribly underdeveloped. Communism is already quite near.
Initially, I was thinking about having something like 15 cities (OCN), disbanding the "overhead" under communism. When I was talking about "disbanding cities under communism", I was thinking about junk cities, located between (and strongly overlapping with) permanent cities, which cultural borders would close the gaps the disbanded cities would open. This tactic will not work with border cities. If we disband any of the lately conquered cities, the AI civs will try settle the gaps. We could try to block the gaps with troops, but for that we would need a lot of troops. Or we could kill any settler pair approaching the gaps, but that would probably mean conquering our whole continent and "Always War" afterwards (which would really spice up things). Generally, sticking to my initial strategy seems to lack elegance under the given circumstances (except maybe for the "AW" variant :) ).

The other strategy is to keep all the cities (except for the strongly overlapping ones). The outer part of our empire is penetrated by other civ's cultural influence, so we would have to bring strong troops there, and we would have to pump a lot of money into these colonies (we still need courts and police in all of our cities). This strategy bears the danger of war, too, as we might annoy our "encircled" neighbors (Scandinavia). Not that any of our neighbors could really hurt us, speaking about military.

Each of these two strategies requires quite a different treatment of our latey conquered cities, either "let be as is" or "pump up". Therefor, I would like to decide about further strategy now and play afterwards, following this strategy.

- Physicist

P.S.: Unfortunately, I will be out tomorrow (Saturday) all day and I will not be able to check the thread until about 10 pm (GMT). If a decision has been found until then, I would intend to play and report on Sunday.

P.P.S.: Asking about my opinion? Well, I personally like the idea to "spice things up" a little bit. Let's face it, if we follow the second strategy, this game is practically won. We are in a truely dominant position, and will (GA powerded) easily launch our Spaceship. It might be slightly more rewarding to cut down our civ a little bit.
Maybe even to prevent the other civs from settling the gaps by military means? This would probably lead to a world war situation (with us as the bad guy of course). We would have to do our own research, and might have some trouble keeping Joanie from launching (or winning a cultural victory?). But, this is just an idea (maybe a too extreme one ...).
I will be glad to finish this game following whatever strategy is decided.
- Ph.

Either way would work fine with me... Someone mentioned either further back in this thread or in another thread on corruption that double the number of OCN is the most you can really have productive in Communism with courthouses.

If we're going to do option one, then we need to evaluate our cities' food, shield, & trade potential and give up the ones at the lower end of the scale. Also, any city too far away from another city with access to either the mainland or the sea should possibly be scrapped, as we can't depend on RoP to keep that city supplied with luxuries, etc.

Also, if we end up deciding on that option, the leader Sun Tzu in Beijing should be used for either Hoover or ToE as we'll be fighting enough to get more leaders. At least, I think we will, given the AI's current attitude towards us. Babylon is easily bribable, but they probably won't be around much longer... as it is, I don't know why they're still alive. They remind me of my position in the GOTM Deity game.

Borealis: Thank you for your comments. Do you have a preference for any of the two options?

Harleqin/Architect: Any comment from you?

- Physicist

I would go for the always war method you suggested.

I said when I left this game I would keep an eye on it and I have. All I have to say is :goodjob: !

If you play safe you're going to win anyway but why not have some fun, after all that is what Civ 3 is ultimately about isn't it? You are in Communism, a goverment ideal for war, and you're China. Well OK Cina aren't quite Mongols but there hardly pacifists! (At least not the way you play them!) Also going to war gives you a good chance of a space race victory. If you get them to war they will divert production to units, neglecting to improve their cities. Also if you drive them into the wise choice of a Communist government ;) they might use their workers to improve their outer cities more as they will no longer be completely hoplessly corrupt. This will stop the workers from improving their strong Metropolises used for building Space ship components.

Oh forget all those reasons, just GO TO WAR. Go on, make my life just a bit interesting, please!

JMansell

I'm really a bit indifferent. The war option sounds fun, but the question is if we can keep the AI alive long enough for us to launch? If we get into so many wars then a domination or conquest is more likely than a launch.... and that ship is our target. I'm not really sure what to do right now.

Thanks to all for the comments!

Let my try to clarify some points:

At the moment, the urgent question is: Do we intend to give up *some* of our (currently) 41 cities when reaching Communism (aiming at a city number between, say , 15 and 30), or will we keep *all* of them? I need to know that in order to decide about pumping cash into those cities for rushing purposes. Also, I need to know that for possible future wars.

We do not necessarily have to decide about going to war yet (although I have to admit that the questions are related to a certain degree).

I have the impression that my "Always War" comment gave rise to some misunderstanding. When I was talking about "Always War", I meant the following: If we decide to abandon border cities under Communism, the AI will try to settle the gaps. We would then (again) have two possibilites: Simply allow them to do that (would keep the AIs busy, but allow them to grow), or try to stop that by military means. The latter would probably mean killing all settler pairs approaching the gaps (maybe even intercepting transport ships). This strategy would be similar to a typical MoO strategy where you place some ships in a system that you do not own (i.e. that you have not settled yet), but you nevertheless shoot down any incomming foreign ship; you sort of "claim that land" without settling it. This works well in MoO, even without automatically resulting in a total war between the two empires. In Civ, this will definitely lead to declarations of war (by us, actually). Following that strategy we would soon be at war with *all* AI civs (as all of them would try to settle the gaps). We would be unable to trade, making the end-game slightly harder. It is *not* my intention to go for domination or conquest victory. Even if we would have to kick Scandinavia and Iroquis from our continent, I would *not* settle these lands (except for resource spots) in order to avoid domination; I would not try any oversea invasion, either.

Let me stress one point again: If we decide not to build up the lately conquered cities but abondon them later, we do *not* necessarily have to go to war with the other civs. We could still follow a peaceful way (allowing the AI civs to settle our former lands). This is an interesting option, too, as it would allow Scandinavia and Iroquois, our continental neigbors, to grab most of that land. These two would then become more powerful competitors. :)
Or we could block the settler pairs with units without attacking them. This option, however, lacks elegance in my eyes, as it would require permanent moving of the blocking troops (very annoying) or a hugh amont of troops building a wall around the gaps (very expensive).

But, let me repeat, we do not have to decide about that now. We can and should continue discussing that in the next days. The current question is if we pump money into the lately conquered cities or not.

- Physicist

PS: I will play after the decision is made.

We might as well just focus on our core to allow those cities to be better once the race to build the spaceship is on. Otherwise we might lose too much productivity. How about abandoning the cities, but harassaing the AI as much as possible with chains of units to slow down the settlers?

I have no preference, but focusing on the core would be a good idea if they don't have enough infrastructure yet- make sure all our top potential producers are ok, then up the rest, then look at former Japan. We'll want to keep Nagoya for the dyes, and if there are any luxuries we don't have in the area we'll want a city & trade route for that, but otherwise abandoning those cities seems like it would be a good idea. If we have to keep some cities, I'd keep them in Greece to avoid a two-front war without the AI having to invade (which it is still bad at, even in PTW), and reap the benefits of the FP.

Keep Greece, let Japan go unless there's something we particularly want there, and keep in mind that if we leave our cavs in Japan, they might not be able to get back home very easily if Hiawatha won't renew our RoP. Or they could just carve their way home... :p

Oh, and as far as wars... leave the pink sword/settler pair in the north alone if at all possible until we want our GA, and then whack it with a Rider for precise timing rather than wonder-timing. Otherwise, send the Light Brigade to run that swordsman down and liberate the two French deportees.

OK, that sounds like a decision. I will focus on our strong core and will not improve the outer cities of low startegic importance (former Japan, as Borealis mentioned).

I will play and report today night.

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist >>> up and playing
Harleqin >>> on deck
Borealis

Sorry for missing this discussion. One comment from me is I would suggest that you guys try a sprawling communist empire spaceship win. Seems like it would be more realistic and in the spirit of communism to try and launch with a giant empire than maximize production under communism.

Summary
Quiet turns this time. We mainly improved our infrastructure, both in the core and in eastern Japan (here via cash-rushing). Southern Japan is still weak (but I started improving Osaka - fur colony). We started researching again and completed Newton's University.

Status of the Empire
Everything looks good. I just fire some enertainers or turn them into tax collectors.
I investigate Rheims for ~ 160g. Magellan's will be finished here in 16 turns; Chengdu would need 18 turns in the current setup... I have to do something here. We can still switch to university without shield loss ion the next turns.
RoP with Iro expires in three turns.

Report on the years 1350 AD - 1400 AD:

1355 AD - (1)
A lot of workers on goto orders. :nono:
(I) the French start Shakespeare's

1360 AD - (2)
It hurts, but I switch Chengdu from Magellan's to university. We can not get Magellan's, we can not use it as prebuild, and I do not want to switch to Military Academy (Chengdu has not enough production for army production).
(I) Finally, after 40 turns of one 'lone scientist' ;) researching for it, PHYSICS is discovered! [party] We continue the Age of Natural Sciences by working on Theory of Gravity

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1360AD.jpg

1365 AD - (3)
Theory of Gravity: 70% sci, -18gpt, due in 6 turns. Mil. Acad. in Beijing (prebuild for Newton's due in 6 turns, too)

We renew RoP with Iroquois getting 8gpt.

1375 AD - (5)
I missed the right point to sell around Economics. All AIs except Babylon know it now.

1380 AD - (6)
Vikings start Magellan's in Stavanger.

1385 AD - (7)
(I) we complete ToG and start Navigation; Iroquois start Magellan's.

1390 AD - (8)
Beijing switched from Military Academy to Newton's
We sell Physics to ...
- France for WM, 21gpt & 2g
- Scandinavia for WM, 3 gpt, 18g & Music Theory (we don't need M.Th., but Ragnar has nothing else to offer)
- Iroquois for WM and 14g
(I) WE COMPLETE NEWTON'S UNIVERSITY IN BEIJING! A look at Beijing:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1390AD.jpg

1400 AD - (10)
In the last turn, I encounter a strange situation. I can not give orders to some of the workers. :confused: I save and reload. Hm, works again. No idea what happened. I have never sen that before.

Comments to the next leader:
* Military Academy in Beijing can be completed, vetoed or maybe used as prebuild (the latter is not optimal as it would delay Factory/Hospital in Beijing).
* Keep the price of Theory of Gravity in the eye. The AI might have started researching it two turns ago.
* The jungle is nearly cleared. Do not forget moving the spare workers twoards the core for fast RR building.
* Our caravels are near Nagasaki (east Japan)
* EDIT: Of course, our leader Sun Tzu is still there awaiting a wonder to rush.

To the whole team:
* Communism is near. Please remember the variant rules concerning the techs Nationalism and Communism. :)
* Interesting comment by Architect concerning further strategy. Feel free to continue discussion.

Good luck to you, Harleqin!

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1400AD.zip

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
Borealis >>> on deck

I got the game. Should be able to play later today. I'll also need to go back and rewiev the rules again. We have to go straight for communism before steam power, right? Well, why do I ask? I could just go look :lol:

For those who do not want to scroll back to page 1:


2.) We have to acquire the tech 'Communism' as soon as possible. Or, in detail:
* The first Industrial Age tech we acquire must be 'Nationalism'.
* As soon as we have discovered 'Nationalism' and at least one other civ knows 'Communism', the next tech we aquire must be 'Communism' (however, we may finish a research project started earlier).
3.) When we have aquired the tech 'Communism', we must immediately revolt to Communist government. Afterwards, we may never change government again.


Have fun! :)

- Physicist

I might be a little late with this. I've caught the flu which is raging in Denmark right now and prefer not to play until my head is a little clearer. Don't want to mess up because I can't think straight.

Harleqin: I am sorry to hear that. I wish you a fast recovery! :)

- Physicist

Well, I normally recover pretty fast and already I'm way better than yesterday. It's a bit late to play now, but I will get it done tomorrow. Promise. I also need to as I'll lose access on Friday and not get it back until Monday as I'm in the middle of changing my ISP.

Right then. Only a short report here as I’m still a bit under the weather but have to play before losing my access tomorrow. Remember, I won’t be able to come here during the weekend, but should be back late Monday.

I’ll keep this report short and to the point.

- I’ve started pulling workers back toward Beijing and fortifying them there in preparation for railroads. There is little else for them to do. Stacks also available near St. Regis and Thebes. With build and move and build, we can quickly lay down a military network.
- The price for ToG dropped quickly and it was traded around while we could still profit from it. Luxes and gold aquired giving us WLTKD several places.
- Magnetism discovered. We start on Nationalism.
- France has entered the industrial age as well. They are also expanding on the southern islands.
- Rheims has built Magellans. Orleans has built Shakespeares.
- Several cities are on wealth to allow our high research. Also, if we built more units it would hurt us financially.
- The Iro’s enter the industrial age.
- I’d love to invade and raze a few French cities to knock them back a bit.
- I haven’t done any MM this time. Simply can’t focus enough on it.
- Nationalism is ready next turn. Remember to check the slider.

Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1-1450AD.zip)

I see the game, but the upload server is down/slow. I'll get to it sometime between now and Friday afternoon.

Just a quick message. I've done some tests and am capable of upgrading to 1,21f. If the team wishes to upgrade then it is not a problem any more...and will allow Architect to return.

Sorry for the late reply, I had problems with my internet connection yesterday.

Harleqin: That's good news! If we can patch, then we should. However, I would like to avoid an unnecessary risk of the game stalling. Thu, I want to propose the following procedure:

* Borealis: Play your turns with 1.14 (the old version).
* I will PM Architect and ask him if he is willing to return (I have not followed the other SG threads in the last weeks and do not know if he has other commitments by now). If Architect wants to return, we should patch; if Architect does not return, we can continue with 1.14.

- Physicist

I'm available to play again once you go to 1.21.

Team: We are patching to PTW 1.21 now! ("now" means after Borealis' turns)

Architect: Welcome back! :) I have set up a new roster to let you play as soon as possible (please post a note if you want to be placed somewhere else).

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin
Borealis >>> Up
Architect >>> on deck

1450 AD (0): Preturn- everything looks good, but several cities are building wealth? Cities with nothing to build but a colosseum left on wealth. Shanghai and Anyang are swapped to granaries, as we're not that far from Sanitation, and it will help then. Thessalonica is Junk, but will get a harbor anyway, as at 14 turns, the extra gpt will help. Also, if we're going to avoid disbanding junk cities as per the earlier suggestion of hobbling ourselves by running a large communist empire, we should develop all but Desert Junk, which is really the only unviable city due to overlap. The only scientific civ left is Babylon, and they are in the beginning of the Middle Ages, meaning that according to the rules and the roleplaying constraints, Communism will be our next research project as none of the other civs will have it for a while.

(IT): Vikings found a city to the south. We can decide what to do about it later- for now I'm leaving it alone.

1455 AD (1): Knossos->harbor. We discover Nationalism, and start Communism research, due in 9 turns. Workers are fortified at/sent to high-production cities in our core.

1460 AD (2): France is now in the Industrial Age, and is in Democracy. Ningpo starts Palace prebuild for something, probably Theory of Evolution- it's due in 49 turns, so we should have plenty of time to research/buy our way to Atomic Theory. Once we get into a Communist Government, we can compare our best producing city (give it stations to reduce corruption first) to those of the AI cities and determine whether we can self-build certain wonders, or choose to rush something else with Sun Tzu. Cities on wealth are swapped to Riflemen, with the aim of keeping 3 garrison units in each city- old muskets can be disbanded into new rifles once the first one is built.

(IT): The Iroquois sneak attack St. Regis, which has one musket and a cav for defenders, and beat the musket- but don't attack the cav! We are now at war with Hiawatha!

1465 AD (3): A cav defeats the offending Iroquois cav, and another cav pillages the only source of Iroquois horses before returning to our territory. MPP with Ragnar for WM, MPP with France for WM and Dyes. Cavs move to pillage Iroquois resources to annoy them, and in to position to do something about Hiawatha should it be necessary. Riflemen rushed in potentially vulnerable cities. A few catapults are upgraded to cannon in cities near the border.

Note: It will currently take 2960 gold to upgrade all our muskets to riflemen.

(IT): One cav lost to a longbow, but they still have no horses.

1470 AD (4): Saltpeter pillaged. The Iroquois still have iron, but no horses or saltpeter. Lux resources pillaged. Our forces move in on Allegheny, and two cav move up against Tonawanda from Beijing... as the visible defender in Tonawanda is a SPEARMAN.
:lol: Muskets kick the crap out of a Mounted Warrior and a longbowmen, both escorting Iroquois settlers into our territory.

Edit: Hit post button prematurely. :blush:

(IT): The Iroquois try to fight back against this wanton pillaging by sending longbowmen against our cavs. It isn't successful.

1475 AD (5): Cav roam around the Iroquois capital, wantonly pillaging. Cav army and elites take Allegheny.

(IT): Vikings look like they are about to take Copenhagen, managing to redline at least one musket there.

1480 AD (6): More positioning.

(IT): Iroquois musket slips past the border and pillages iron source.

1485 AD (7): Tonawanda and Salamanca fall to our cav.

1490 AD (8): France has Nationalism. The Vikings don't yet, but are in Democracy.

(IT): Vikes raze Copenhagen, and Hiawatha wants peace. I decline, not wanting to have to break it again when he attacks Ragnar, via our MPP.

1495 AD (9): Beijing builds Military Academy, starts Army production.

In between turns...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_ad1500.JPG

:band: :jump: [party] :bday: [party] :jump: :band:

1500 AD (10): The workers revolt into anarchy, in preparation for a glorious Communist government! Seven turns of time will be necessary to make this transition, which the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Phys1_1500ad.zip) will oversee.

1500AD(0) - Ah to lead our great nation during its glorious revolution is quite an honor! The foolish Iroquois are at war with the major powers in the world. It is time to eliminate them and spread to their workers our glorious ideals. I want to ensure that the viking beserks do not gain any Iroquois cities so I move on Mauch Chunk. It is guarded with Muskets but that will not deter our glorious calvary units. We take grand river.

IT: Our spice and incense deal with France expires.

1505AD(1) - I trade communism to the french for Spices, Incense, WM, and 182GPT. We take Mauch Chunk. The foolish Iroquois have 1 city left.

1510AD(2) - I eliminate the Iroquois.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1irodead.jpg

The french are moving a settler through our land to try and take up the space made by the Iroquois elimination. The french now have Steam Power but want way to much for it.

1515AD(3) - 4 more turns of Anarchy. These will be fast and furious.

1520AD(4) - Lots of French activity. We will just need to contain them so to suck as much of our GPT from them.

IT: The french land 12 units on our shore. They will attack next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1frenchsuck.jpg

1525AD(5) - I try and move as many forces as I can to protect Akwesanse but It will probably fall next turn. The french will pay in this world and the real world for their transgression.

IT: The french declare war and take Akwesanse. The Vikings declare war on the French. The Babs declare war on the Vikings.

The whole world is at war.

1530AD(6) - Moving forces to attack the french.

1535AD(7) - We revolt to Communism!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys1comm.jpg


I adjust production throughout our state. We can research steam power in 6 turns at a cost of -64gpt. We attack Akwesanse and the babs declare war. We get all but one 1hp calvary. Will take it back next turn.

1540AD(8) - We retake Akwesanse. The vikings are trying to build cities in the open spaces. I create a unit wall to stop them. I switch alot of our cities to police stations.

1545AD(9) - Stopping the vikings still.

1550AD(10) - More viking herding.

I would build courthouse, police stations, marketplaces, banks, in that order where it makes sense. We don't need any more happiness right now and our research can be supplemented by our spies. I would go for espionage after we get steam power.

Good Luck.

1550AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/phys-1550ad.zip)

Sorry for being late. Unexpected RL issues kept me from checking the thread ....

Will play today.

- Physicist
P.S.: :thumbsup: Communism [party]

I am very sorry, but I will not able to play my turns this time. RL keeps me too busy to play at the moment (I will go on a trip to a scientific conference and still have to prepare the talk I am supposed to give there :( ). I thought that I would be able to play, but now I have to realize that I am running out of time.

As a general schedule note, please skip me until Friday. I will return from my trip on Thursday night and should be able to play again on Friday. I might be able to shortly check the thread on Monday & Tuesday morning.

In my absence, I would ask Harleqin (being the second person in the current roster) to take care of the thread and keep the game going (not that this would have been a problem in the past :thumbsup: ).

Again, sorry for the delay and the inconvenience. I am looking forward to continuing the game together with you. :)

- Physicist

Roster
(Physicist - skipped until Friday)
Harleqin >>> up now
Borealis >>> on deck
Architect

Hm, no message from Harleqin. Thus, I ask Borealis to take care for the thread.

- Physicist

Roster:
(Physicist - skipped until Friday)
Harleqin
Borealis >>> up now
Architect >>> on deck

Eeep. I'll look after the thread, but I just played right before Harlequin, and I'm currently overloaded with SGs and Epic 25. I have to write up the HOT games this afternoon, and write a report for Epic 25, and do K8 tomorrow... plus that little something called RL to take care of. :whipped:

Harlequin, please post to tell me if you can play within the next 48 hours- if I don't see a response by Thursday afternoon, I'll play 10 then.

I am finally back. There were some problems getting back online, but they should be fixed now. I've grabbed the game, but don't expect a report until Thursday as I have a lot of things to catch up to after the time away.

Argh...I'm a bit deleayed by real life. I have a few hours later today and will try to get the turns in there.

I am back.

Harleqin, if it is difficult for you to find the time to play, please post a note. We could try to shuffle around the roster a little bit to let you play during the next days.

- Physicist

It is a little tense right now. Doesn't look better until Saturday and Sunday. Lots of work and I also have to pay some attention to my G/F ;)

EDIT: Seeing as no-one has claimed it, then I will play my turns now. Now playing :cool:

Comrade Harleqin the Builder (1522-1600)

Born in humble surroundings the young comrade and patriot was elected chairman of the great Chinese Communism during the war against the French and Babylonian aggressors at an age of only 28 in the year 1550 AD.

A great leader he set about punishing the French whenever they dared land troops on Chinese soil. Angry at the French agression toward the peaceful Chinese nation he obliterated almost 13 enemy divisions and battalions who dared trespass and also sunk two French frigates.

Woving to make the kapitalist French pay he started construction of a great fleet to cleanse the oceans but sadly died before the first of the new iron constructs saw action.

His greatest reward to the industrious Chinese people came in 1600 AD when he finished the great continental railroad linking every single Chinese city allowing the glorious workers to go and see other parts of the nation. The immense construction took almost 35 years as well as the life of our great leader who died within weeks of its completion.

The reign of this great comrade was also seen in the breakthroughs accomplished under his reign. The People learnt how to utilise steam and make great trains to travel the world and production was made even higher with less work for the workers when the secrets of industrialisation was learnt. Everybody should go to Macao some day and witness the immense Iron Works that he started there.

In the words of the great Sun Tzu who resides in Beijing and leads our glorious army: "Comrade Harleqin was a great man who really tied China together. He will be missed".

----

Well, I really have no comments for the next player. Continue the railroads and get a navy and some factories up. You might wish to switch a few cities to courthouses or factories.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-1600AD.zip (The Great Red Nation)

Looks like the Chinese people made great steps forward during your turn, Harleqin! :goodjob:

Borealis is up, Architect on deck.

- Physicist

Got it by typing Harlequin's link in... the actual link itself is messed up.

Whoops.... I switched the text and the link. My bad. Sorry :(

Another schedule note: I was informed that I have to go on a business trip (again). Thus, I have to be skipped from Wednesday to Sunday :( . Sorry.

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin
Borealis >>> up
Architect >>> on deck

Secretary Borealis spent most of her time ordering workers to develop the railway system in the suburbs of each major city, and deploying ironclads to fend off the irritating French frigates that bombarded China's shores. Occasional attempts by the French to land regiments of riflemen and longbowmen served as good training sessions for many of our veteran cavalry troops, while keeping home territory intact.

Recommendations for future plans involving the automatic assignment of workers to develop certain core cities are laid for future leaders, to avoid the timesuck of filling out all the paperwork required to approve each project.*

Macao builds the Iron Works in 1645 as a monument to the workers' industrial prowess there, and many worker owned and operated factories are built across the nation.

Other than a handful of riots in Iroquois cities by workers bitter from their former oppression, the glorious Communist nation faced no challenges under this Secretary. Electric lights were installed in many major cities, and scientists have started to make major inroads in the investigation of harmful diseases.

*OOC: Could we please control-shift-I our workers for our major cities, so that the worker assignment is only done once each city is fully improved? As we are not hiring any dairy cows in this game, it would save time and allow progress to occur faster.

Also- unless a player runs into a 'major roadblock', e.g. France or Scandinavia gets far ahead enough in tech to warrant pause, I'd like players to switch to 20 turn blocks from now on. 'Game won' exhaustion is setting in for me, and with people in and out of the game, it would be more productive to do 20 rather than 10 when we're just moving workers.

1650 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1_1650ad.zip)

I understand the "game won" syndrom, so I personally agree on both of Borealis' proposals.

Generally, I would like to hear the other player's opinion first. Playing 20 turns instead of 10 should be ok anyway (every player is free to choose, of course).
Automating workers is usually a faux-pas in SGs. But I agree that moving the workers manually is very annoying in the late game (actually, that's the only thing I really dislike in Civ3). So, if the other players are willing to automate the worker, I will happily follow this way.
If we automate, we might consider giving the governors unrest control in our fully grown cities as otherwise pollution will result in lots of entertainers which will not be turned back into laborers (IIRC this is only done when city grows). If you control the worker, you know where you cleaned pollution and where you have to reasign the the laborers. With automated workers, you will not be able to remember the polluted tiles, and the entertainers will stay. Actually, I wanted to try that in my next game. Should speed up the game considerably.

with people in and out of the game
I again apologize for being absent the second half of this week. Be assured that the reason is not that I do not want to play; sometimes, RL just doesn't go the way one would like it to go :( .

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist skipped until Sunday
Harleqin >>> on deck
Borealis
Architect >>> up now

I got it. Will play 20.

As announced, I will be away from now on until Sunday.

Rotating the responsibility for the thread around, I would ask Architect to look for the game this time. If you do not want to, please choose another captain.

- Physicist

My own RL issues have come up :( and I will be out of town from Tuesday afternoon until Thursday afternoon. Please feel free to skip/swap me if necessary in order to keep the game moving should my turn come up during that time.

I am back.

Architect: You have posted the 'got it' four days ago. Sorry, but it looks like we have to skip you, unless you are able to post a note before someone else takes the game.

Basically, I am up now. However, I have just returned from a business trip and will not be able to play tonight, and might have problems playing tomorrow. Thus, a proposal to Harleqin:

Harleqin: If you are able to play today or tomorrow (Monday), I would propose to swap our places in the rotation for this time. Otherwise (or if I should not get any message from you), I will take it Monday evening (GMT).

- Physicist

Go ahead and take it Phys. I've had a pretty rough day at work and am completely worn out. I won't find time until tomorrow anyway.

Harleqin: OK, I will take it (= "got it"). I might be able to play 10 turns tonight, but I do not know for sure yet. Nevertheless, consider yourself "on deck". :)

- Physicist

The Empire of China has finally seen the light of glorious Communism! Surely their victory is all but assured, and the proletariat shall arise and enjoy the fruits of their labor!

(In other words... just wanted to say Hi!)

Hang in there, and bring this puppy home folks :hammer:
Charis

Charis: Hi to you, too! :)

Yea, progress was a little bit slow in the last couple of week (no wonder with me being absent all the time). But I hope that we will be able gain some speed again and bring this one to a victorious end.

May the proletariat enjoy the fruit of their long struggle towards Communism! ;)

- Physicist

Unfortunately, I was unable to play yesterday but will play today.

However, I had a short look into the file and realized something strange. Look at that picture:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-1650AD-Hut.jpg

There seems to be a goody hut 1 tile NW of Bordeaux, inside their cultural borders. Could anyone explain to me what's wrong here? :confused:

- Physicist

Physicist, I believe that goody huts continue to be displayed on the map until you have confirmed their disappearance. Cities on the other hand, will appear in the fog of war, even if you haven't 'seen' them yet.

So, although you can deduce that this goody hut would have been popped by the founding of the city, it still gets displayed on the map.

-Sirp.

Sirp: Thank you for the information :) ! That seems to be the reason.

- Physicist

Status of the Empire

Damn, we are large.
I decide to disband Akwesasne and Pharsalos as soon as they have completed the units currently built.
Additionally: a few minor changes of entertainers to tax collectors.
I move some units to tiles not under our cultural control to prevent Scandinavia settling there.

I note that we have a MPP with Scandinavia that expired in 3 turns.

Report on the years 1650 AD - 1750 AD:

Early Turns:
I abondon Akwesasne and some turns later Pharsalos.
We discover Medicine and start Sanitation.
We renew our MPP with Ragnar. No RoP is signed.

1680 AD: France & Scandinavia sign peace, and I realize that we do not have a MPP with Scandinavia any more. I was absolutely sure that I had renewed it (although I have to admit that I played around a bit on the diplo screen, so I took the MPP off the table once).
Looks like I messed it up. :(
I renew MPP with Ragnar. I make peace with Jeanne d'Arc and sell Medicine for Corporation, WM & 45g. A massive Stock Exchange project is started all over China.

Middle Turns:
We discover Sanitation and start Sci. Meth.
I abandon Desert Junk.

Late Turns:
We finish Sci. Meth. and switch Ningpo (a very old prebuild) to ToE (wasting 336 shields :( ). After getting Atomic Th. & Electronics, we start Replacable Parts. Hoover is completed in Beijing with the help of our great leader Sun Tzu. Furthermore, we complete Wall Street in Macao.
We buy Refining from France for Electricity & 980g.
I start joining workers into our cities.

Comments to the next leader:

* Several cities are building Wealth as all units available will soon be obsolete. After Repl. Parts, we might consider an upgrade Musketeer -> Infantry, or Rifle -> Infantry.
* Espionage might be a useful tech.

Good luck, Harleqin! :)

Maybe I will post a screenie tomorrow night.

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-1750AD.zip

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
(Borealis skipped from Tuesday to Thursday)
Architect >>> on deck

Physicist, I noticed you startedd joining workers to cities. May I please refer you to:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=189557&messageid=1049763131

What is your opinion. I tend to think of joining the workers to cities, especially since you have just got sanitation, a minor exploit.

JMansell: Thank you for the hint. However, I have already found and followed that thread yesterday. :)

My personal opinion is that massive joining of workers -of course- is a tactic which allows the skilled human player to gains an advantage over average players / the AI. Actually, I myself have recognized the power of that tactic some time ago. However, unless done excessively (by storing workers for pop increase before hospitals or building workers for pop transfer in the late game), I would consider it a minor problem for two reasons:

1. Knowing these tactics is what makes a skilled player (to a certain degree). This should not be in an perfect world where you win by your superior planning, build orders and military tactics, but in reality it mostly is the case in computer games (not only computer games, btw).

2. There are many such "grey area tactics" in Civ3 (as Charis noted). You can not disallow all of them, as the heavy ruleset would spoil the fun in the game for most players.

3. The AI uses that tactic, too (at least to a certain degree). This is a weak arguement, but consider the topic "partial rushing and micromanagement". The AI does not do that (AFAIK), so I consider this more of a semi-exploit, actually.

Thus, I personally would favor a "weak" rule concerning workers, i.e. do not build workers for pop transfer only, neither in the early game nor in the end game. To speak more explicitly, one should not build workers if there is nothing to improve for them or if it is clear that the existing workers could "do the job" in an acceptable time. This leaves room for exploit, of course, but it looks like a viable option to me in the RB community.

Concerning our game: I started joining workers into our cities as we have a hugh amount of them and as our territory is nearing a state of full improvement. We have had need for all those workers in the past due to our quite large amount of territory (we seem to be not too far away from to domination limit). But now, I do not know what to do with them. Thus, I started joining them into the cities. As a side note: You may have noted that I abandoned Desert Junk which was a pure worker factory. We do not need more workers from now on; keeping it for pumping up stronger cities would be an exploit IMHO.

I do not know what decision will be made in the RBCiv community, but for this SG I would suggest to follow the rule stated above, which boils down to "do not build any more workers from now on". That is my opinion, but -as usual- I do welcome discussion concerning that issue and will gladly follow the majority vote.

- Physicist

Got it

Ten more turns played. This is without a doubt the dullest ten turns ever played. Four things of note happened:

1) We made peace with Babylon,
2) We learned Rep Parts
3) We learned Espionage
4) I cleaned up a lot of pollution.

Well, the goal of this game was to test how a communist regime would do in a spaceship race, but we are so dominant that there will be no race. It seems to me that it is a waste of time to keep on going when the game is already decided. Should the French ever start building we have such a huge production base that we can easily knock out Paris.
Personally I think we should attack the Vikes. That should give us enough tiles to win by domination. Then perhaps start a new game in a week or so where we can test the communist aspect.

The sleeping game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-1770AD.zip)

Comments from the other players concerning Harleqin's proposal?

- Physicist

I'm not a player in this game, but I would like to comment that I think any test of communism would be very difficult, since the game is likely to be decided far more by what happens before communism is discovered than afterward.

If anything, I think the best way to do it would be to mod the game so that communism shows up around the same time as Republic and Monarchy, and see if you can keep up going into communism that early.

-Sirp.

Hmm... That's an interesting idea for a future SG, Sirp. I think this 'test' was skewed too early by the proximity of so many native luxuries.

I'd be fine with a domination win, as long as it was done honorably (after we end the MPPs, etc.), and all players were comfortable with it. Also, it'd be easily RP-able... ;)

Oh, and I'm back- I'll wait to see if Architect wants to grab it, but if he wants to wait, I can 'get it' tonight.

I have been waiting for a comment from Architect, but I think I should comment now. Not that you start thinking I would not check the thread any more. ;)

Actually, I don't think that the high number of "close luxuries" made this game such an easy win. I think it is our large size, and that is one of the points I have learned from that game: 1.) If some experienced players who know the common exploits play in a concentrated manner, Emperor can be won without greater problems. 2.) Communism does not really cripple you if you know how to handle it. 3.) Empire size does matter.
Well, basically I have known these things before, but this game was a prove. I still think that this game would have been more challenging if we would have been restricted to, or would have restricted ourselves to a smaller Empire size, leaving the AI more room to expand and more tech trading partners. That's what I had in mind when starting this game. The map and our starting location definitely did not support that; France's starting position would have suited us better here. Well, that's the problem with random maps...

I have to admit that this game is de facto won and that it might quite tendious to play it out to Spaceship Victory. Thus, if the team votes for a Domination Victory, I will second that. After all, this is a game, and a game is supposed to be fun, so if it is no fun any more, one should stop it, even if that would mean losing the game. However, I would like to have a vote from all players; actually, that means I would like to hear Architect's opinion.

- Physicist

I'm going to wait for Architect until you tell me to continue, as ideally if we're going to domination we should start now rather than later.

No message from Architect although he is posting on the RBMoO forum, so I guess decision is up to me.

As the majority of the votes is for Domination Victory, we will follow that way.

Borealis, you are up to play again. Play 10 or 20 turns as you prefer.

Let's bring this baby home.

- Physicist

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin
Borealis >>> up now
Architect >>> on deck

Ok. I just got out of the hospital unexpectedly and I won't be able to play Civ until tomorrow afternoon US time (~16 hours from now), but I'll still play my turn with an eye towards Domination victory if I don't see someone posting before then. Sorry about the delay.

No problem here. Due to Easter I won't be able to play for at least 56 hours so there is no rush here.

I hope it was nothing serious and that you are well.

Borealis: I hope you are well; if not, I wish you a fast recovery. :)

No problem with the delay; just drop a note if you can not play afterwards.

- Physicist

Borealis: As we did not get any note from you since more than 48 hours, I have to assume that you were unable to play. Thus, I have to hand the game over to Architect. Sorry for that. Of course you are welcome to post your report or drop a note about your progress before Architect posts a 'got it'.

- Physicist

Architect: >>> up now
Physicist: >>> on deck

I hope everything is alright with you Borealis. Hope to see you back soon.

1770 AD (0): We have a MPP with the Vikings that will expire in 16 turns. At the end of that, I will attack. In the preturn, I move a lot of troops to the future Viking front lines.

1772 AD (1): Worker movement.

1774 AD (2): We discover Steel; start Radio.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1_ad1772.JPG

Nanking starts Battlefield Medicine, which will be useful once the war starts. Beijing takes a break from army building to start the Pentagon, and the army is sent off to the future front lines.

I tell Canton to build a Rider, which will trigger our GA once the war starts. Why not go out in style?

Not much happens for a while...

1780 AD (5) (IT): France and Scandinavia sign an MPP.

1782 AD (6): We build the Intelligence Agency in Shanghai. I successfully plant a spy in France,

1786 AD (8): We discover Radio; start Combustion. Beijing builds the Pentagon.

1792 AD (11): Nanking builds BatMed. I upgrade some riflemen, as it looks like we won't need that much extra cash with the AI this far behind.

1796 AD (13): We discover Radio; start Mass Production.

1798 AD (14) (IT): I refuse a Babylonian MPP offer.

1800 AD (15) (IT): France finally loses patience and declares war on Babylon. The Vikings follow suit when their MPP triggers.

1802 AD (16): We cancel our MPP with Scandinavia and foolish Ragnar will not leave us alone, declaring war on us instead!
I sign an MPP with France, to help put off the annoyance of seaborne invasions, and wait for Ragnar to trigger it. Note that I did not sign the MPP until after Ragnar declared war, giving France the option to save its reputation by refusing an agreement with us.

(IT): France honors our MPP and declares war on the Vikings.

1804 AD (17): WLTCD breaks out all over China.

Now that the war has started in earnest...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1_GA.JPG

Triggered, appropriately enough, by a Rider beating a beserk.

Alesund falls immediately to our troops.

1806 AD (18): We learn Mass Production, and start Motorized Transportation (4 turn research during the GA). Stavanger and Molde fall to our troops.

(IT): France destroys Babylon.

1808 AD (19): The Vikings delay us another turn by wasting troops in the way.

(IT): Ragnar wants peace, but there is no peace for the enemies of the State. :p

1810 AD (20): http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1_ad1810.JPG

The mopping-up of Scandinavia is left to the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1_1810ad.zip), who should be able to finish the Vikings off. Remember that we can't usually rush temples immediatly as Communism=pop rush, not cash rush, so domination may be slower than our military superiority would seem.

Borealis: Great to hear from you! I hope you are well. Great progress with the game, too.

Roster:
Physicist: on deck
Harleqin
Borealis
Architect: >>> up now

Looks like I should take it...

Got it. Might need 48h however. If anyone else wants to take it, he/she would be welcome to play. I will post a note before I start playing.

EDIT: Will play this night.

- Physicist

Report on the years 1810 AD - 1850 AD:

1810 AD (0):
All cities producing Wealth are switched to troops.

1812 AD (1):
We take Reykjavik & Birka. We learn Mot. Transport and start Flight.

1814 AD (2):
We take and raze Hareid. We take Aarhus. Tank production started all over China.

1816 AD (3):
Facing our glorious armies (and I mean Armies!), Bergen falls without losses on our side. Osle is taken immediately afterwards, and the continent is ours! The Scandinavians still have one city (Karasjok) on the Island SE of Oslo, but I have to wait for the completion of our navy to take that city. ;)
I "shift-A" our workers.

1820 AD (5):
We discover Flight, enter the Modern Age and start researching Fission. Placeholder founded.

1822 AD (6):
New Placeholder founded.

1826 AD (8):
Our invasion force, consisting of 24 tanks, is landing on Karasjok island. Next turns, we will extinct the Vikings.

1828 AD (9):
Tell you something: the damn city is defended by ONE REGULAR RIFLE. Ha. The Vikings are history, no more flip risks.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-1828AD.jpg

We have a lot more military than we need. I disband several Cav, speeding up the production of temples for faster border expansion.

1830 AD (10):
We complete Fission and start Rocketry. Manhattan Project & United Nations are ordered.

1838 AD (14):
Rocketry is discovered, we start researching Space Flight.

1842 AD (16):
MPP with France? No, not really ... Hey Joanie? Against who do you want me to protect you? It's only you and me left, lady ... :rolleyes:

1844 AD (17):
Our Golden Age ends

1846 AD (18):
We complete UN in Macao

1848 AD (19):
We discover Space Flight and start Satellites (can be vetoed by next player, however)



Comments to the next leader:

Well, I tried to trigger a Domination Victory, but the game does not want to (although we control nearly all of the land tiles of our continent - coastal tiles is a different story). There are tanks and bombers fortified in the cities that are currently producing them. Not that I think you will need them... The worker are all automated (makes life easier).

I started Apollo in Macao this turn.

Good luck and have fun, Harleqin! :)

- Physicist

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-1850AD.zip

Roster:
Physicist
Harleqin >>> up now
Borealis >>> on deck
Architect

I see it, but haven't got it yet. Will take it later today when I find the time to push my 48h limit a bit. I think I'll go for the MA. How advanced are France now?
Goals wills probably be to build the fleet and get it ready for invasion.

Originally posted by Harleqin
I think I'll go for the MA. How advanced are France now?
Goals wills probably be to build the fleet and get it ready for invasion.

France is several techs backward (lacks Atomic Theory, Combustion etc IIRC). The most advanced French ships I saw were Ironclads (but I did not check the military advisor during the last turns; we have a spy in Paris so you can easily find out). The AI does not very well without trading partners. I could research techs in 4-5 turns @ 50-60% sci during our GA, but now there is a remarkable slowdown (5-6 turns @ 90-100% sci). We have more than 15 kg (kilo gold) on the bank, so we can easiliy afford a little deficit as long as we keep some money for the modern armour and mech inf upgrades.

An invasion would be no problem (I mean no risk for our civ), but it might be painful from point of view of micro management. Our navy is quite small. We have a few transports, but slightly scattered around. We might need more battleships and subs for protection. Personally, I like to have some (well protected) carriers as mobile artillery force for invasion. We completely lack these forces (although I built two to three dozens of bombers and a few fighters). We have more than 100 tanks.

Building all those units meant a lot of MM (Wealth -> Cav/Artillery -> Tanks -> Airports -> Tanks/Bomber/Wealth). I would even call it micromanagement hell. Actually, that was one of the reasons why I automated the workers: it would have been too painful otherwise. The first ten turns took me nearly four hours (about two hours for the first three turns alone, blitzing through Scandinavia and securing the continent). Compared to that, the last ten turns were "fast food" with 1 hour only. If you want to go through this micromanagement hell, too, you are welcome to do so. ;) I would just ask you to continue building Apollo and the Spaceship parts in parallel. Call it "Plan B". :) In the (unlikely) case that you should not be able to trigger domination (assuming you would play 20 turns), Borealis would have the choice to win by domination or spaceship during her turns.

- Physicist

PS: I founded "Placeholder" and "New Placeholder" to close some cultural gaps France wanted to settle. Feel free to abandon those cities. I think the neigbouring cities have already had border expansions (which should have closed the gaps).

Hmm...if they're that far behind then it shouldn't be a problem. I'll take a look at it.

Btw.... I got it :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-time.jpg

One picture speaks louder than words.
The first ten turns were spent preparing a fleet and getting forces ready for a three-pronged attack on the two main islands and the French home continent. War was declared in 1870 AD and forces landed, invading the French lands. The French threw everything at us to throw us back in the ocean including a swordsmen army and a kitchen sink, but they failed. In 1872 Bayonne was captured and Toulouse and Babylon were destroyed and the cities of Kaifeng and Paoting were founded.
Several enemy ships were sunk, an airfield constructed and the first airlifts started. The following turn gave us victory.

Sadly I didn't save at the end of 1872 and had to replay it. This was done rather quickly and thus the situation will look a little odd as I skipped doing a lot of the things I did before. I just wanted the cities taken and settled so the win was ready.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-graf.jpg

The final turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Phys1-end.zip)

:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Our glorious worker's paradise has :hammer: the evil bourgeoisie!

Whoops.... I meant to put in the powergraph..... just noted I used the one for score. Ah, well. Can't win 'em all as they say.

Congratulations to all players! Well played by everyone! :goodjob:

Some concluding remarks: Obviously, the game did not move along the way I had planned/expected it to go. Probably there are several resons for that; IMO the map let us grow incredibly large and thus directed us towards a domination victory instead of the planned spaceship victory. If anyone is disappointed by the course the game took in the end, I apologize for the insufficient planning and game/map setup by my side.

Nevertheless, I enjoyed playing this game together with all of you. :)

Currently, I am suffering from a notable "Civ3 burnout" (although I have to admit that MoO3 and all of its "release version faults" are rapidly curing this Civ burnout). Triggered by Architect's posts at the RBMoO3 forums, I have read a bit about Galactic Civilizations during the last days and decided to give that game a try (assuming I can get it here in merry old Germany ;) ). Thus, I do not want to start or join another Civ3 SG at the moment. But this might change soon, and then I would be glad to play with you again.

Have fun! :)

- Physicist

Phys, could you provide a link to that MOO3 forum you use? I've only played it twice and then it was put on the shelf. Perhaps it is time to dust it off a bit. :)

Thanks for having me on the team as a late arrival without prior Emperor experience :)

Harleqin: RBMOO forum is here (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/237344)

There is also the RBCiv forum here (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/189557)

I also have bought MoO3, but really can't get into it. It just seems so...cold, foreign, alien, and dull compared to Civ...maybe I just don't trying new things. *shrug* :)

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Harleqin
Phys, could you provide a link to that MOO3 forum you use? I've only played it twice and then it was put on the shelf. Perhaps it is time to dust it off a bit. :)

Ah. I just had assembled the post and collected the links when I saw Sirp's post. I am such a slow typer...
In addition to the RB forums, sometimes I may visit Infogrames own MoO forum (http://www.ina-community.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=224), especially when looking for patch information.
But, as I mentioned in my previous post, I am not really happy with MoO3 currently and will probably stop playing it until the the code patch is released. Then I might give it another try.
At the moment I am quite impressed with what I have read about GalCiv, especially its macromanagement tools; looks like GalCiv offers exactly the kind of macromanagement tools I always wanted to have... :) . For me, that alone would be a reason to buy it. Additionally, Architect stated that he considers GalCiv a good game. Thus, I have to try it ! :D

Originally posted by Harleqin
Thanks for having me on the team as a late arrival without prior Emperor experience
You are welcome. You showed great skill in this game IMHO, so I am sure that you will not have problems with Emperor (or even higher) difficulty in the future.

- Physicist

Physicist, I have also heard a little about Galactic Civilizations that make me think it might be good. My main reservation is after having spent $100 on MoO3, which seems to have been a wasted $100, I'm not sure I want to invest an equivalent amount which also might be wasted! :)

(and yes I do earn a good income, but I'm cheap :-p )

Anyway I may give it a try. I saw that Sirian said he's going to buy it. If he says it's good then I'll almost certainly get it at some point.

-Sirp.

Thanks Sirp. I already know the Civ Epis forum. Actually tried the new AW Epic, but gave up. I think I'll do one on regent first to get the hang of it :)

Sirp,

I completely agree with your statements and remarks concerning MoO3. I have the same feelings about the game ("empty" is a impression that comes to my mind) and I can understand your reservation for spending more money on games. I also consider the EUR50 (which is >~ US$50) I spent on that game a complete loss. I think I can say that even before patching progress is finished.

Why? One of things the irritates me with MoO3 is its macromangement philosophy. For me, good macromanagement means that the game fulfills repetitive task for me (like: "build the following list of buildings in all cities that I, (the player) classify 'fishing village'"). This does not require any kind of artificial intelligence. The only kind of intelligence in the players civ should be the players intelligence; he makes the decision, the game/UI/MM tools just executes his orders.
MoO's approach is different. Here the game takes decisions out of the players hands. It says: "Don't bother what is built on your planets. I will take care for that. You just have to design ships, assemble task forces and sometimes order and insert some new spies." Don't get me wrong, there are some ideas and concepts in MoO that I do like, but the macromanagement concept repells me. I want to be in control of my civ, but in MoO to me it often feels like losing this control, and thus the game feels "empty" to me, without spirit.
Actually, this is a fundamental problem for me. All of MoO's bugs (the long list of bugs, actually :( ), will sooner or later be fixed. But they will not change the macromanagement concept. Thus, it looks like my money invested here is lost. Even if I should come back to it after some patching and play one or two games, I will not get as addicited to it as to Civ.

Not that Civ offers superior macromanagement tools IMHO, but at least I can go through the Civ's micromanagement hell because the city number can still be handled manually (I am not playing map sized larger than standard). MoO's 100+ planet numbers spoil the fun for me.

GalCiv seems to offer macromanagement tools that I like (Governors with fixed build orders that can be applied to several planets, the order "All planets that are currently building X should now build Y").
Of course, empire management is not the most important feature of a game; it's gameplay. Well, GalCiv seems to offer diplomathy and trade network possibilities beyond Civ or MoO, which sounds quote interesting to me. This is the impression I had after reading the gameplay samples on galciv.com, which of course is biased information. I do not really know about gameplay yet as to have not played the game; but I will find out. :)
If I like the game, I might post a comment on the GalCiv thread on RBMoO, so if you want to hear another opinion, have a look there from time to time. :)

- Physicist