HOT2 - Spanish Conquistadors (Emperor !) [Archive]

Borealis

Jan 30, 2003, 04:20 PM

Borabella, Supreme Ruler of the Spanish nation, surveys the lands before her and is pleased. Fruited plains and grasses surround it, and the nearby seacost provides rich opportunities for trade. A work party, sent out to tame the riches of the local vineyard, notices a school of fish swimming to the north, and the architect’s plans are revised accordingly. The Blessed City of Madrid is founded, and the architects drown their sorrows at the delayed paycheck in the new vineyards at the city center. After smashing most of the city’s wine barrels in a drunken, spree, they are exiled to the clay pits until they devise less fragile containers.

An armed band of explorers moves out, sighting unarmed, but faster Arabian explorers just as another exploring party is outfitted in Madrid. Their leader, Abu, knows how to make the clay containers, but Borabella, noting that he still lacks the means to label them with letters, grants no reprieve to the laboring architects. Shortly afterwards, a mere seven leagues away from Madrid, the Arab capital of Mecca is sighted. It is rumored that Abu refuses to ferment the products of his own vineyards, producing an inferior vintage known as ‘grape juice.’ Borabella, hearing of this strange practice, resolves to intoxicate them with her beau… ahem, champag… the Lord’s power, at the proper time.

The lead architect, fallen out of favor with the warriors now that the wine can now be safely stored in the palace, starts devising a new weapon for them to experiment with.
After two exploring parties, one more work crew, and riot police to protect the city from the heathens, inside and out, a building is commissioned to hoard the land’s riches, as the lands outside of the Lord’s dominion are harsh and unforgiving.

A village to the south and west of Mecca resists the truth of the Lord, instead spawning three ragged bands of barbarian warriors. After hiding in the jungle, two of them try and fail to halt the Lord’s mission.

Word is brought to Borabella of a cunning historian called Machiavelli, who has seemingly infiltrated the treasuries of the world.

The granary finishes construction, aided by fresh timber, and Madrid starts a warrior to escort future adherents of the faith into the howling wilderness to the south. Word comes of a new weapon devised by Arabian mystics, made of a strange metal called ‘bronze.’ Their leader, Abu, will offer Borabella a large portion of his treasury, along with the knowledge of how to make these weapons, for our bottle-labeling system. A new Arabic city, Damascus, settled in the harsh lands to the south, blocks the Spanish people from expanding into the richer lands there and claiming the sweet-smelling incense.

Incensed at this Arabic power play, Borabella sends for more wine, and a priest (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_2550_BC.sav) to divine the proper response to Abu’s provocation.

Borealis

Jan 30, 2003, 04:29 PM

</RP>

I had two SS, but couldn't get them to load properly in the last post, so I'll post one of them here:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2bc2550.jpg

The warrior production in Madrid can be swapped to a spear if you make the trade with Arabia- I held off on it but we can get Bronze Working + 25 gold for Alphabet. No contact with other civs- we appear to be on an island- and really awful land to expand into immediately. I'm glad I started Warrior Code (which will finish in 1 turn), as we're going to have to go to war fast. No fresh water outside of the Arabic capital means that the forested plains to the southeast will grow slowly, and an expanse of desert to the south will be extremely unproductive in terms of food early on. My build order was warrior-warrior-worker-warrior-granary-warrior, and I only played 30 turns- as we're about to learn Warrior Code and start a buildup to a war, this makes a good stopping point. 40-turn research after Warrior Code finishes will give us cash for unit support, and a fast rax+archers after we build a settler or two should at least net us concessions from Abu, if we can't wipe him out altogether. :hammer:

hotrod0823

Jan 30, 2003, 07:21 PM

From the looks of things we are about to get our feet wet in an early war. I have the game and will try to get 20 turns done tonight. I agree that a rax is in order but will try to get a settler first to grab a city in the hills to the SE then an archer rush from the capital and an early rax in our second city. With an early lux online we can get by without multiple MPs or lux tax until we reach size 4. Some vet archers will come during my turns.

Got it

hotrod0823

Jan 30, 2003, 11:26 PM

Hot 2

Ferdinand steps up and grabs the reigns from Queen Borabella and looks across the land to see a view of the Arab world and asks himself a question. " Can they not see the light that We can bring to their lives??
There is not room for 2 religions on this dry rock we call home and they must be made to see that our way is the way of peace and prosperity. Even if it comes at the hand of a pointed stick."

The year is 2550 and I dial up my good friend Abu and talk. You mean you don't know your ABCs, hmmm. What will you share with me for that Knowledge?? Bronze and a measly 9 gold. I laugh at such an offer, you have 35 !! How about you give me Bronze and 25 of your 35 gold??? A deal is made. A broad red stroke is drawn and a settler is started due in 5 turns.

In the year 2510 the Code of the Warrior is learned and the way of the wheel is started. Chariots may ride across the land. Ancient war and emperor in the same game? Now it is going to get exciting. Due in 24 turns without running a loss. We call on our good friend Abu and ask if he knows the ways of the Warrior. Ofcourse we do what are we idiots. I have 2 workers for you. You only can offer 39 gold ha no way. Clearly he was never a vanilla civ.

In the year 2470 Our scouts to the south spy a camp of infidels, maybe then we can buy our workers from Abu. If they are still available.

2430: What do you mean just sit tight???

2390: Reports from the front we are 25 gold richer but not any more experienced. Abu too has recently gained 25 gold.

2350: Warrior having no where to go return home but will have to pass through our good buddy Abu. Workers start on preparation to move to our next city to the south east. Our newest settler will be available next turn.

2310: Fearing barbs our new settler is shadowed by our faithful warrior on their trek south. A warrior is started to replace our lost breathern.

2270: Our trek continues a Arab settler is spotted moving south, this is a good thing.

2230: A warrior is completed and a barrack is ordered. Concern of future plans for culture domination loom. 2 pair of arab settlers are pushing his boarders south. Founded Barcelona with some overlap with Madrid. Want to get a second city growing so made sure a wine tile was able to be shared to push growth. Start a warrior.

2190: a 4th Arab city is founded on the incense to the south of Medina. Begin sending warriors northward. The wheel is due in 8 turns.

2150: Continue our trek north nothing to report.

2110: The Arab leader sensing an impending war asks our warrior to leave. We politely say that we were just passing through. Barcelona completes a warrior starts barracks.

2070: Movement north continues. As does our work on barracks in Madrid and Barcelona.

2030: Running warriors up the NW coast of the Arab lands.

1990: Looking over the current situation it appears another city can be grabbed on the coast but after the barracks, war is just around the corner. Abu has but will not trade Mysticism, we are 4 away from the wheel and knowing the horse location.

1950: Abu wants 21 of our 56 gold treasury :eek:. Sure you may have more cities more land and more power but you cannot be given into like that can you. Well okay for now here you go take it. It is only gold after all and we do have a barracks complete and archer coming soon.

1910: Madrid requires 10% lux to maintain the peace. The wheel next turn.

1870: Learn the wheel the only horses are outside of Mecca. Iron working due in 40 turns to build up gold a measly 7 per turn.

1830: With archers on the near horizon a war may be in order move 2 warrior near Damascus just outside the boarders.

1790: Our first archer completes start another.

1750: With only 1 vet archer and 3 warrior not on MP duty it may be a tough task but if we do declare war soonish then perhaps we can extract something from the Arabs. We will have to fight our way out of this corner literally. The archer in Madrid can be changed to settler and MM to build the same turn as growth to capture another city on the hills to the south East. There are pink boarders to the west but no contacts. Abu will give 50 gold for the wheel.

Good luck! Hope the :smoke: isn't too thick

here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT2_1750_BC.zip

hotrod0823

Jan 30, 2003, 11:30 PM

Borealis
Hotrod
Unique Unit <--- Now Up Play 10-20
Meldor (On deck)
Heimdall
Swiftsure

Unique Unit

Jan 31, 2003, 06:55 AM

Got it. Wow, a challenging start!
The Lord is testing his chosen people. We must prove worthy, before he will bestow the bounty of his blessing,

Unique Unit

Jan 31, 2003, 08:53 AM

Just peeked at the save, which raised a question:
Were we not commanded by the Almighty to build a temple in his honor before all else? Help me, brothers and sisters, for my soul is in torment. God must be honored: a holy commandment must not lightly be cast aide!
And yet, given the peril of our situation, and the very grave possibility of conquest at the hands of infidels, perhaps it is His will that we train our people to do His work on the field of battle, waging a high holy war to claim land and spread the wonder of His word.
I am praying for divine guidance -- and for communal wisdom on this vexing matter.

hotrod0823

Jan 31, 2003, 09:00 AM

Prior to starting I posted this: Sorry if it wasn't clearly stated

Just for clarification every city that is captured must build a temple/Mission first.

With this being a first SG emperor game for most of us I re-thought the temple first in all cities requirement. I will be happy enough if we can survive an ancient war with Arabia. Pushing temples at this point may not be possible.

Hotrod

Unique Unit

Feb 01, 2003, 10:27 AM

In the year 1750 bc, Inquisitor Unito comes to power, called by God on high to lead his fledgling people to …. Glory, or Ruin?

The scene he surveys is grim. Arabia, to the south, grows lustily in their fertile lands. Five cities already, to our 2. And from travelers’ reports, Unito learns that these Arabs are a religious people, worshiping a false god they call Allah. Doubtless they are already building their sacrilegious temples – which they call mosques.

Do we dare to build temples ourselves, to a God who has not yet manifested Himself in singular form to our people, but who already stirs our prophets? Will we succumb to this arrogant Abu and the already formidable southern heathens? Unito’s deepest soul rebels at the prospect. No. He resolves to gird his people for war, and bide his time, waiting for the moment to strike.

There is much to do, to prepare. Above all, Unito realizes, his peoples need more cities, to build troops and, one day, when God has blessed His chosen people with victory on the battlefield, to erect temples in his honor.
More cities. But where? The choices are slim. We must establish a footing to the south, in the harsh plains and hills. Lusher grasslands lie to the north, but a city there would crowd in close on Madrid. Someday, when his people have learned to navigate the coastal waters, they will settle the mysterious and fertile lands to the west. But for now, they must make what they can of this continent He has bequeathed them.

The choices are unpalatable, but it is not for mortal men and women to question His will. Unito’s people must follow their fate, and settle first the dry, rough lands of the southeast (to meet up against the incursions of the Arab heathens, and bring the true faith closer to their borders), then the coast of the northwest.

Sooo…..
Madrid switched to settler, and micro-managed to time pop growth and settler production. Once one settler is finished, another is begun. Barcelona kept on military production once barracks are finished.

Seville founded in hills to the south (hopefully in iron country), 1625. Set to building barracks.

Toledo founded on the NW coast (I know I’m shoehorning it in here. But it seemed to me we desperately needed another productive city to wage the coming war.)

Arabs started Colossus, 1400 bc.
Arab settler pair headed north (into the fog and desert) 1300 bc.

Worker pair is now positioned for logging project to speed barracks production at Toledo. Military somewhat spread out among cities, but concentrated to the south.

Abu is annoyed. Has masonry, iron working, mysticism. Has hooked up his horses. Outnumbers us militarily, and impresses us culturally.

We have our work cut out for us.

I agonized over founding the cities, and where. Finally decided it was important to settle in the hills to the south, even if the land was dry, to check Arab expansion – and to squeeze Toledo in on the NW coast, figuring we needed the production to meet the coming trial of war with the Arabs.
I’m still not sure I made the best decisions, frankly. Toledo is not ideally placed by any means, and if its weed, it’s [pimp]. We can always abandon it down the road, once (with mapmaking) we can settle the landmass to our north.

Good luck, Meldor. I’m glad we have someone battle-tested coming up next, as I think I’m handing off a delicate situation.

El Game (http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1250_bc.zip)

Rats, once again I'm screwing up somehow here. The save game is in uploads3, though.

edit edit: there, that's it

Unique Unit

Feb 01, 2003, 10:29 AM

Here's a peek:
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1250_bc.JPG

hotrod0823

Feb 01, 2003, 10:56 AM

This is not an easy start by any means and I think UU chose wisely! I agree that it is fortunate that Meldor grabs the reigns.

Borealis
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor < ---- Now Playing 10 - 20
Heimdall (on Deck)
Swiftsure

meldor

Feb 01, 2003, 08:33 PM

1250 BC (Pre-turn)
Meldor the enlightened has a vision that he is to lead his people in the conversion of the heathens to the south. They have built their foul cities and these must be made clean. Meldor begins this task by changing the tasks of the faithful in Madrid, so the the brothers are ready to spread the word a turn earlier.

1225 BC (1)
The blessed children of the field begin chopping trees to speed the production of a vestment building. This will allow the brothers to go forth with more strength and health.
(I) The Arabs begin building a heathen stone monument to praise dead kings they call the Pyramids, the faithful also report that they have completed an unholy building at which the seek the guidance of demons they call the Oracle. Mecca will have to be cleansed completely I fear. They also found a hovel in the desert called Anjar.

1200 BC (2)
Our three bands of brothers move towards this new blight upon the desert.

1175 BC (3)
Another band of brothers is formed in Barcelona and will join the others.

1150 BC (4)
The fifth band of brothers is formed and move out.

1125-1100 BC (5-6)

1075 BC (7)
The brothers have gathered and moved towards Anjar. Abu, afraid of our rightous cause asks us to leave, the brothers refuse and a holy war begins. Two more bands of brothers are formed and move to help in the conversions. A building for vestments completes in Toledo. A group of faithful begin training to help the children of Toledo understand the word and be not so riotous in their behavior.

1050 BC (8)
Unfortunately, the children of Anjar were not prepared for the Word and destroyed their own village in devils fits. The faithfull complete a road to Toledo so that the sacremental wines may reach it in a more timely manner. The people rejoice.

1025 BC (9)
Seville completes another vestment building and starts preparing a band of brothers for the trip into heathen lands. Pink borders are spotted across the waters from were Anjar stood. We are blessed with yet more children that need our guidance.

1000 BC (10)
A band of brothers outside Seville encounter some crude Arab warriors. These warriors are so overjoyed by the message that they disband and return home. Two lesser bands of brothers begin converting the children on the outskirts of Mecca. This results in less goods for the heathen capital. One band of brothers is lost attempting to convert Damascus, again unfortunately the children are not ready for the message and Damacus is destroyed by demon fire.

975 BC (11)
The brothers rest from the trials of Damascus. A better organized group of heathens issue forth from Kudaf, but our brothers prevail and the group disperses.

950 BC (12)
Your brothers to the south move to try and convince the people not to supply Mecca with horses.

925 BC (13)
Horrible news! The brothers of the south were truely weak and were seduced by Abu into the evil ways. Both bands were lost.

900 BC (14)
The brothers from Damascus begin the trek to Mecca. Meanwhile a second gathering of brothers is almost ready to leave the hills of Seville for the city of Kufah.

875 BC (15)
The march continues.

850 BC (16)
The brothers are assualted on the way to bring enlightenment to mecca. A group of heathens disperse, but a sec leads so of the brothers left to guard the rest astray. Our priests, pouring over evil manuscripts from Damascus, prior to burning them learn of a thing called steeel. We begin the search for uses of the horses found outside of Mecca. The information is cleansed for the children and the faithfull spread out in search of iron. It is heard that the heathen Aztecs complete the blasphamy named the Pyramids.

825 BC (17)
The lost souls outside of Mecca who would lead us astray are convince off their sinfullness and they disperse. Our brothers arrive outside of Bufah.

800 BC (18)
The faithful rejoice as the heathens of Bufah flee before us, we do lose one band of brothers to their evil. Unfortunately, they burn the city behind them. Our first band arrives outside of Mecca.

775 BC (19)
Praise be to all who follow. The brothers arrive outside Mecca and the heathens see the light. Unfortunately, two bands of brothers were lost during the conversion. The evil town contains the idol worship temple of the Oracle. This building will be cleansed and prepared to become a place of holy worship. In honor of His glory, we immediately have the children begin construction of a temple for His worship and rename the town Glory! Several faithfull from the new city will now go fourth to build a road from Glory to Madrid.

750 BC (20)
The brothers are resting and moving towards Glory. The children of Madrid are preparing to move into the old heathen town sites to farther spread the holy word.

Abu fled before the conversion of Glory. He sent some of his demon emmisaries to talk to us. He is willing to teach us three heathen arts and allow us to convert one of his dens of sin. However, I would suggest the faithful continue to convert the heathen hovels until only one remains. We can then get his heathen knowledge to cleanse and convert the rest when the period of grace is finished. With the completion of the temple of Glory, we will be able to control the horses and use them to spread the good news faster. The faithfull should now start bringing the blessings of water to the children.

The holy lands:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/750bc.JPG

Hot2 750 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_750_bc.ZIP)

My God bless the family and friends of the crew of the Columbia as we turn our thoughts and prayers to them.

meldor

Feb 01, 2003, 08:37 PM

Ack! I actually forgot to rename Mecca! Please, do not leave the heathen name on our children. Glory is so much better for them.

hotrod0823

Feb 01, 2003, 11:32 PM

:worshp: Meldor the king has arrived with great vengance! :goodjob:

Borealis
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall <----- up now play 10-20 as you see fit
Swiftsure (on deck)

Heimdall

Feb 02, 2003, 02:51 AM

(0) - High Priest Heimdall takes over and his first action is to rename Mecca. Seeing that the Lord has a bigger need for troops spreading His word rather than some new place of worship, Barcelona gets switched to Archers.

(1) - The spanish crusaders are given some time for healing and gathering

(2) - The resistance of the infidels in Glory finally ends, and our holy troops put some unwashed barbarians near Seville to the stake. An Arab "counterattack" on Glory is repelled.

(3) - Our crusaders begin marching towars Medina, and a Settler/Spearman pair of an infidel tribe called "China" is spotted on the western shores of our island. Contact is made and we aquire Masonry, Mysticism, Horseback Riding and contact with a tribe called "Egypt" in exchange for contact with the Arabs, our World Map and 300 Gold.

(4) - Madrid finishes recruiting some missionaries to settle new lands.

(5) - Our crusaders are still approaching Medina

(6) - The unwashed Chinese found a city called Anyang in the western desert. We manage to take Medina, and it is burned to the ground.

(7) - The city of Santiago is founded by our missionaries and work on a place of worship is begun. The Lord's loyal troops are moving on towards Basra.

(8) - Still marching towards Basra ...

(9) - Another barbarian party is killed near Seville. Basra has been captured and renamed to "Faith", a building project to spread His word there is begun.

(10) - Infidel Abu is asking for an audience. We decline. Madrid recruits some more missionaries.

(11) - Our crusaders are given some time for healing

(12) - With prayers for victory, our troops start moving on Najran.

(13) - The priests of His church have discovered Writing. They now start on writing down His Lords Code of Laws.

(14) - The crusaders of the Lord take their positions at the gates of Najran.

(15) - Salamanca is founded by our missionaries. While fighting the infidels at Najran, a great leader called Cordoba emerges! Our troops manage to capture the city from the incense-smoking infidels and decide to keep it, as the incense will be a nice addition to the place of worship ordered to build there.

(16) - While Madrid is sending out new missionaries, the Egyptians have built an idol called "The Colossus"

(17) - The unwashed Chinese have started building something they call a "Great Wall".

(18) - Some barbarians have managed to slip past our defenses and pillaged the lands near Seville. They will burn on the stake for that. Our priests getting impatient, they use their whips on the infidels of Glory. The place of worship there will be finished a lot sooner now.

(19) - The priests of Glory now finally have a home. The work on barracks is started. (This is just a placeholder, swap it as you see fit)

(20) - Our priests say that a tribe called the "Vikings" have completed a Great Library, while our crusaders have taken Baghdad and ordered a home for our priests being built.

I suggest taking Fustat next and keeping it, then making peace with Abu for all that he got and eradicating him after some time for consolidation.
I'm not very happy with Anyang, maybe we should spread His word there while at peace with the Arabs. If that happens, I suggest razing it and founding a new city to the south of it.

Savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_350_BC.zip)

Heimdall

Feb 02, 2003, 02:54 AM

And here is a map:

hotrod0823

Feb 02, 2003, 07:11 AM

We are moving along quite nicely, considering the poor lands we had at the start.

Borealis (on deck)
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure <---- up now playing 10-20

One question: Is the leader still around?

LKendter

Feb 02, 2003, 07:28 AM

Uh, Hotrod -
Did you look at the picture and Madrid?

hotrod0823

Feb 02, 2003, 08:01 AM

:blush: that is a leader isn't it. Missed it the first time thanks lee

Heimdall

Feb 02, 2003, 08:23 AM

The leader is at Madrid, right.

Since there was nothing worth rush-building available I wanted to let the next player decide what to do with him :)

Thinking back now ... it had probably been possible to buy Literature and rush-build the Great Library, but I didn't think of that when playing :(

swiftsure

Feb 02, 2003, 11:33 AM

There is only one lord almighty and we kings are but humble servants at his feet and i am the most humble but i will try my best to spread the word.

There is a prophet at the gates, his name is Cordoba and he demands of me a task worthy of both him and god. The barbarians have claimed many of the great deeds and we cannot imitate their heathen buildings and so i am vexed. Then the lord speaks to me, the people to the south work hard but are far from the watchful eye of the lord and surely a palace for the lord will inspire them to greater glories. I send cordoba south to Glory.

We note that the recently conquered heathens still call their hovels by their own names. This cannot be,Narjan is renamed Lords Fire and Baghdad, Wrath of Angels.

330bc the people of Toledo send out another band of the soldiers of god. the people then commence work on a temple to praise god

News has arrived that the prophet Cordoba arrived in Glory as a bolt from god, he demanded that the people put aside their work on earthly buildings and immediately start on a palace to the glory of god. the fervour he invoked has seen the palace built in only one year.

310bc I have inspected the palace in Glory and am pleased. Unfortunately the work was to much for Cordoba and he has now gone to meet the lord. I insist that the people recommence works on our barracks to train more soldiers of god.

Rumour sweeps the land that the heathens in china have ringed their country with a Great Wall to protect themselves. What is a wall to god when the time comes i will call forth legions of winged angels to convert these heathens.

290bc a band of pilgrims leave madrid, i bless them and point them towards the promised lands. i commission a temple in their honour, they have no escort but i can always use the temple for a funeral.

A messenger arrives with news that a new village has been founded in the south. i shall call it murcia they immediately start work on a mission.

270bc the young men of barcelona form a band of soldiers of god, bless them all, may their lives be glorious and short because i dont want to pay their upkeep later on.

Glorious tidings, the heathen capital of Fustat has fallen to the soldiers of god. We pull down their false idols and use the stonework to commence work on a greater and more worthy temple to our lord.

We have held a great synod in madrid, the great leaders of the known world attended and many deals were agreed. We have peace with Arabia and they gave us Knowledge of waterbourn craft ... galleys? and also 33 chests of gold. The heathen mao then demanded my world map,135 chests of gold and yearly tribute of 2 chests of gold for his knowledge of Laws( remember winged stealth bombers..... oops sorry angels). However i was not undone because i then sold my knowledge of laws to cleopatra for her knowledge of numbers and 15 chests of gold.

250bc the greedy mao returned to my private apartments after the synod andoffered a private deal his philosophy on life for 45 chests of gold and 9 chests of gold each year. i prayed long and hard but the will of god was strong and we accepted his poisened apple.

230bc We shall call these years the restfull years for no actions or thoughts were required.

210bc the peasants in seville have raised a small rag tag band of soldiers of god armed only with spears. My priests gather the populace together and extol the benefits of a temple.

190bc Glory completes the new barracks but whats this building on the side... a stable? they will use it to tame the wild horses of the hills. the soldiers of god will move quicker now i think.

The temple of Toledo is consecrated. the people wish to explore other lands and so i give them permission to build a galley.

170bc The town to the south invites me to the first sermon in their new temple while there i suggest they buils a building to store any excess food they have.

a few bands of the soldiers of god stray accidentily into chinese territory while following a star in the north.

150bc Oh my children what have i done, my soul will burn in eternal torment! the heathen mao demanded i remove the soldiers of god from his territory the trades we had agreed with mao suggested this was the right and proper course of action but the soldiers said that this was gods own country, why should heathen feet trample the lords ground, the chinese outpost was an insult upon god! oh i am weak and my soldiers words prevailed. we are now at war with china!

150bc With the war upon us i find my feet drawn to the new temple in madrid upon my way i see the first of the horses being lead to begin training.

A sign from god perhaps! fresh from the attack on anyang my aide tells me that a group of chinese workers was captured outside the walls, they are now all willing converts to the faith. and then at the storming of anyang after the first wave of martyrs had fallen at the gates and the second wave was in dire straits a leader arose, a prophet among men, a scion of kings! Bartolome is his name .... he is destined for great things perhaps ... i will not see them .... my lord is calling me home.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Word-of-God.zip

I have closed my book and my time is short but there is a queen coming! her footsteps echo in my mind and i see her face in the stars! i hope she thinks well of me and what i have left her.

hotrod0823

Feb 02, 2003, 01:14 PM

May the bringing of the faith continue onward toward china.

Borealis <---- up now continue to play 10-20 if you so desire
Hotrod (on deck)
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

Borealis

Feb 02, 2003, 02:20 PM

Got it.

Borealis

Feb 02, 2003, 03:06 PM

Oh... we have a leader. No wonders within reach- the only Ancient age wonder left are the Hanging Gardens, and if the Great Wall and Great Library have both been built then it may go before we get Monarchy. Sun Tzu's or Sistine would be nice, but they're even farther off at our current tech rate. We have one galley building, but no other resources to attempt a landing on Mao. In 14 turns, the peace deal with Arabia will run out and allow us to remove the pink blight from our lands, but breaking it before then is not useful.

Would the last esteemed leader remember how far ahead in tech Mao was? If he has Monarchy, or contacts with Azteca or Scandinavia, it may be worth it to conduct an invasion and steal the Gardens away with Bartolemeo's aid. If not, once we gain elite horseman/swordsmen, a glorious army could be filled to crush our enemies. Going to war sooner rather than later would mean that this new leader would best be made into an army, but going to war later dictates holding on to him until we join the Middle Ages.

Egypt is also very annoyed with us right now- buying an embassy might make her happier, but she is behind in tech and might decide that she wants a piece of the action against us anyway.

What do the other glorious rulers of the Faith think about how best to use our leader? Will he build an army, or wait for a massive project to speed?

swiftsure

Feb 02, 2003, 03:51 PM

The chinese had construction but no other contacts. Our big problem at the moment is no iron. Army of vet horsemen perhaps or save the leader for big wonder later.

meldor

Feb 02, 2003, 08:19 PM

I don't think it matters if you wait the 20 to take out the Arabs. Our rep is shot already, as we had two gpt deals with Mao when we declared war.

Also, remember that an army counts as one unit, so with galleys you can not transport an army with more than one unit in it. If you are to use an army against the Chinese, you will have to fill it on their side not ours.

As our rep is shot for a long time, we will either have to pay cash for techs, get them via the sword, or research them ourselves. We are not in a good spot for this level.

meldor

Feb 02, 2003, 08:22 PM

Hotrod,

Are we supposed to be playing by the honorable rules, or dastardly?

Unique Unit

Feb 02, 2003, 09:46 PM

:eek:
We broke a gpt deal, and sneak attacked (by refusing to move our troops and triggering war [which the AI considers a sneak attack])!?!?! Why?
This is quite serious.
We may need to reconfigure our strategy dramatically -- possibly undertaking our own research on vital techs, for example (unless we plan to be at war and hope to extract techs). (IIRC, the AI will accept tech for gpt deals as part of peace negotiations. Otherwise, gpt deals have now been rendered impossible.) And alliances have gotten very difficult to get.

hotrod0823

Feb 02, 2003, 10:41 PM

As far as honorable - no.

Breaking a gpt deal our rep is hurt and may be for most of the game. The sneak attack will definitely make getting ROP near impossible. I should've been clear about breaking 20 turn gpt deals, ROP abuse, and 20 turns of peace. I have just grown accustom to playing with those implied rules as standard, unless ofcourse the game is AW or a specific Honorable rule set. We are now somewhere in between. Breaking 20 turns of peace or gpt deals should be avoided. Breaking ROP is not on the table.

Waiting for the 20 turns to be up is an option for dealing with the Arabs but I don't know how far that will go with improving our rep. Is there a sure fire way to improve our rep?? I am not sure. In Epic 11 I inadverantly sneak attacked the Zulus for the oil with out an ROP in place, from that point on ROP were no longer on the table because of that implied ROP we had in place. The ROP is less and issue than the limited trading we will have due to the loss of the gpt deals. They, I think, will still take tech for tech or one shot gold for tech. What the real problem may be are luxuries and resources???

Okay I think we all agree that what is done is done and we will move on from here with a new outlook. 20 turns of peace and all gpt deals will be honored. We need our rep back. We are not in any position to make this a dogpile on Spain game.

I breifly read swiftsure's report and missed the breaking of the gpt deal but did see the sneak attack. Good pickup UU and Meldor. Borealis hope you can gain the AI trust again, it may not come easy if at all.

Hotrod

Heimdall

Feb 03, 2003, 03:14 AM

You moved the troops into their territory and then declared war when prompted to leave? That is ... not very nice. And it's bad for our rep, too. But doing this while we have gpt deals with them is effectively killing our rep for the rest of the game.
As a result, we only have two ways to get tech: By plain cash or by warfare, since we won't be able to effectively start our own research until well in the industrial age (ToE would help a lot here).
I don't see why we should ferry troops to China. I'd suggest switching to infrastructure, killing the chinese troops landing on our shores and making peace asap, killing the Arabs after the 20t peace an then try to catch up.

meldor

Feb 03, 2003, 07:44 AM

The sneak attack, while it does hit our rep, doesn't do anything close to the damage to it that attacking them with gpt in place. The only thing we can do for our rep is wait for the effect to go away. We should be able to pay gpt, but only as part of a peace deal.
It is early in the game, so hopefully it will have time to wear off. If not, we just made this game a lot more difficult. If we don't get off our island and onto the one to the north, we are going to be in serious trouble for resources as well. Have any of you noticed yet our lack thereof? One lux and horses is not a good thing.

Borealis

Feb 03, 2003, 08:13 AM

I've seen one post in favor of holding the leader, and unless I see posts explaining why we need an army first, I'm holding it for now. We lack sufficient galleys to carry our war to the Chinese effectively (one thing I will at least try to fix on my turn), and taking out Abu won't require the expenditure of an army, I think. I'll spend the cash on an embassy there to check, but a bunch of vet archers should do the trick.

As far as rehabilitating our rep, I'll try to build embassies and make peace with Mao asap. Someone will probably find the other AI soon, and we'll have a worldwide rep as a deal-breaker. Also, simply opening the turn up and looking at it reveals an Egyptian galley in a spot where it might load troops onto our main continent- I'd rather not go to war with Egypt until we can get something from it, which means capturing/autorazing a city, so 'playing nice' in the meantime is to our benefit.

Yes, we do need to 'get off the island,' but before we have sufficient boats for our troops to make a decent beachhead, we shouldn't provoke invasions, which are non-trivial at this point as we have 1 defensive unit per city, with an archer or two that will be diverted to war later.

hotrod0823

Feb 03, 2003, 08:30 AM

I would hold the leader for a Middle age wonder. Without a large scale invasion on the horizon I don't think holding the leader for a while will hurt us. If we were at war I would say use the leader now just to increase our odds of getting another leader.

I think Meldor is looking more north than west as far as exploration. Drop a settler with a speaar escort to the grassland north or Madrid and expand to the north. NOT necessarily go for the Chinese mainland. Kill any landing forces that Mao may send our way but do not take the war to him. Let him lose troops on our mainland then maybe he will talk peace, even if we don't get any concessions it will be better than a prolonged war we can't win at this point.

Good luck,

Hotrod

Borealis

Feb 03, 2003, 04:24 PM

As this turn is late due to much discussion over :nono: behavior and leader use, I'm not going to post RP this time. I played until the possible end of the Chinese war.

Preturn (150 BC): Nothing to change; leader sent to Glory to sit until we can snag a wonder. Upon seeing renaming of cities, I seem to remember something about the AI being annoyed with human players who rename their towns... does anyone remember something about this or am I just :smoke:?

130 BC(1): Swap Madrid to settler in 5 turns, to put on our new galley when it arrives. The Chinese have a city in the island to the north; its cultural boundaries are visible but not the actual terrain. Embassy with Egypt reveals horses in Thebes' cultural boundaries, 3 spearmen and a worker. The worker does not show up on the trade screen, as I attempt to see what her price would be. Cleo becomes 'annoyed' rather than 'furious' with us.

110 BC(2): Our first horseman rides out of Glory, headed for Madrid and possibly the Chinese city to the north. A Chinese galley has the same idea, appearing out of the fog near Toledo.

90 BC(3): Valencia founded on the hill to the SW of the Chinese ruin, starting a temple, as it will add a nice pair of river grass and hill tiles to the radius. The temple is necessary to compete with the heathen Chinese cultural boundaries- please don't cancel the temple unless it looks like it will be razed. Glory swaps to build a spear in 1 turn to send to the new city for defense. Warrior dispatched from Seville to Glory to provide MP duty there and allow the spear to leave, as Glory will be size 6.

(IT): "Treacherous China and Evil Arabia have declared war on us! They have a military alliance to destroy us!" How nice that I already have elite archers on the way, originally to prepare for our war later.

70BC(4): Argh! Glory is rioting as the Arabian citizen there takes its own share of unhappiness from the war, getting rid of our happy citizen. The warrior sent there for MP duty will restore order next turn. An Arabian archer leaves Khurasan- one less defender when our elites arrive.

50BC(5): Elite archer kills Arabian archer with loss of 2 hp...

30BC(6): Glory chooses to revolt again, annoyed at the war. A clown is summoned to scare the populace into submission.

(IT): Arabian archer gives vet 2 hp damage but dies in the process. Khurasan is probably pop-rushed to near worthlessness.

10BC(7): Archers move into position to strike Arabia the next turn.

(IT): Mao wants 80 gold for peace, and has the Republic and Construction. He has two luxuries, extra iron, and 516 gold. I hold off in hopes of taking his city on the tundra isle to the north, Shantung.

10AD(8): Horse deposited on Tundra isle; there was another Chinese city hidden by the fog, and it only has a warrior defender. The settler stays on the galley for now, and goes back to get troops.

The Battle of Khurasan: One veteran and one elite archer are defeated by a single spear, but his fellow falls easily, letting our troops take the barbarian city of Khurasan, rededicating it as "Word of God", in the spirit of our former leader.

30AD(9): The Chinese, cunning heathens that they are, have landed a sword and an archer near our newly taken city. Our wounded units take shelter in the city, and Wrath of Angels forces the population to work harder on creating a spearman to reinforce. The current spear is retained to avoid leaving the city bare. Galley ferries units to the Chinese city, which has received a spear reinforcement via a Chinese galley.

(IT): Cleo demands TM + 34 gold, and I give it to her, putting her on the list of 'future converts' when the Lord's power takes more physical forms. I hope this doesn't count as map trading- it's more like 'map demanding.' Besides, that particular constraint may be busted- otherwise how do we know Egypt's territory?

(IT): Chinese archer loses, but Chinese sword wins, killing an archer and promoting to vet status. Our troops are still too wounded to guarantee taking out the sword, so I wait for the horse to arrive from Glory.

50 AD(10): Troops to the Chinese cities. Spear and horse to Word of God, which is still dealing with the Chinese sword there.

(IT): The Chinese sword kills another one of our archers :mad:

70 AD (11): Our vet horseman arrives, and destroys the Chinese swordsman without a scratch. Wounded, but surviving, horsemen and God's Arrow raze a Chinese city. I decide to wait on peace- we can now get peace for free, and Construction is a 'doubtable' proposal.

90AD (12): Troops heal near Shantung. I'd like to raze it, if at all possible.

110AD (13): One spear left in Shantung, and we should be able to take it before the Chinese galley gets there with reinforcements.

130AD (14): Reinforcements dispatched.

150AD (15): More reinforcements. I want Shantung to fall on the turn we take it, and it's had time enough to grow and pop a spear.

170AD (16): Victory on Tundra Island! Shantung is razed, yielding 0g from the city, but Mao will now give Polytheism for 4 gpt and 30 gold if we make peace. He'll give Construction for free, but Cleo has it- we can probably get it from her if we get Poly first. China has The Republic, but would be 'insulted' to have it put on the table. I think we should take the peace deal, with Polytheism, trade it to Cleo for Construction + gold and WM (if we have the trade restriction still as it seems others have broken it before), and find out where China's iron is. If we can take that away from him, we can cut off his sword supply, and prevent Riders from appearing. However, we need time to regroup, and getting essentially two techs from peace would give us time to gather enough horsemen to hold an invasion base on China's mainland. China has the Great Wall, and cheap walls should we come calling.

Madrid will build a settler in 1 turn to help fill up the rest of Tundra isle- there is 1 settler in place on the former Chinese city site that can be put in whichever way will best use the territory. I recommend two cities for the island to make sure we cover it culturally.

Also, remember that there is a Leader in Glory that can be used to rush a Middle Ages wonder. The Celts build the Hanging gardens at around the 7-8 turn mark, so no Ancient wonders are left to build.

170 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_170_ad.sav)

hotrod0823

Feb 03, 2003, 07:51 PM

Nice round Borealis! Making peace with China and getting concessions :goodjob:! Selling Maps or "giving Maps" when demanded are okay, getting Maps World or otherwise :nono:, I looked back to see the logs and didn't see it but NO MORE. The intent is to push culture and to use the conquistadors to see the world. All terrain as roads and fast movement we shall see how much use they can be. NO Maps from the AI!!!

Borealis
Hotrod <----- playing now
Unique Unit (on deck)
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

hotrod0823

Feb 04, 2003, 12:02 AM

After much deliberation Lord Hotrod has once again accended to the thrown to see good things. The island is clear of all infidels and now we may peacefully fulfill our calling to bring the word to the masses. Temples have been built and the word is slowly spreading. He is disturbed to see the libraries are not an option, but with more research will become available soon. Our navy is a whole of 2 galleys, we shall make more.

170 AD (0): A temple is whipped in Valencia. Salamanca is making spearmen but has no barracks, switched. Faith is switched to from Horseman to galley. Glory can now fire the clown but needs more luxies to be happy past size 7. Murica is put on a granary, will trade those glory cow to grow this city. With only a vet archer protecting Hand of God and 2 China Galleys nearby with no other of our units to help I make peace with Mao now not willing to risk losing a city and any concessions he may give. Take Construction and 2 gold for peace. We now have 500 gold even. Form an embassy with China. Beiging is very close to our boarders infact Valencia may be a possible flip risk, can cities flip across waters??? The Great wall and Lighthouse are in the capital of China. We will take it soon enough. With Construction aqueducts and colesseums can now be built. Switched a couple horseman to galleys to go find some neighbors.

190 AD (1): Madrid builds settler starts spearman. valencia builds temple starts harbor. Barcelona builds galley starts spearman. Rethink Glory and change to colosseum, as it grows it will need a few more happy faces and the culture won't hurt.

210 AD (2): Find another Chinese island to the east. Move some units around, start a harbor in Toledo. Settler is in position on the top Western terrioty of the northern island. Another settler is arriving as well.

230 AD (3): Found Zaragoza on the island start temple. More sea exploration. There are still no new trades available.

250 AD (4): Faith builds galley starts granary. Found Pamplona on the north island, there is still room for 1 fishing village to the east. China has about 4 galleys that look threating.

260 AD (5): China does indeed land a settler and warrior to reclaim the last spot on the north island :(. Hand of God builds a temple starts harbor. Madrid and Barcellona builds spears start another.

270 AD (6): China founds a city to the NE on the island. Mao will now trade Poly for 500+ gold and our map, no deals. Cleo doesn't have poly but she has no gold either. Continue to explore with the galleys.

280 AD (7): Salamanca builds barracks starts spear. More galley movement, inside Mao territory I am sure I will be forced to leave. The poly price has dropped to 240 from cleo and 260 from Mao. We are still 12 turns from Republic. The only good thing is that we are religious and will have only 1 turn of anarchy.

290 AD (8): Mao is letting us pass through for now. Murcia builds barracks starts spear. Glory gets a new scientist at least until the colesseum is finished. More of the chinese boarder is exposed. There is an island of ice to the NE. Most cities are on harbors and military units at this point.

300 AD (9): Mulitple spears complete start more. More galley movement.

310 AD (10): Glory builds our first cultural wonder we call the Colesseum, put scientist back to work, increae research back to 10%, still no trades for republic or poly.

320 AD (11): Contiue looking for new contacts with no luck. Haven't resorted to suicide galleys.

330 AD (12): Nothing new to report. Cleo asked our galley to leave and will not sign a ROP because of what we did to Arabia :(. I thought it was China we sneak attacked.

340 aD (13): All is quiet. China coninues to settle the icy wastland to the east.

350 AD (14): More exploration. Every city is getting a vet spear and horseman. Really want to get moving on something but I fear that a war with Egypt will only bring China back into a battle with us and a war with China is at least 6 more turns away. Just bying time, looking for new contacts, hoping to get Lit out of the deal so we can get some libraries, soon.

360 AD (15): After growing tired of waiting for the world to come to us I put my faith in God and know that the pure of heart will make it across the ocean. We see a boarder could it be the Vikings??? Will our galley make it to land ???

370 aD (16): Wrath of Angles builds barracks starts spear. Our 2 valiant galleys were lost at see but perhaps our next will make it. The military build up continues save a few cities that have begin infrastructure projects.

380 AD (17): All is quiet.

390 aD (18): Buy LIT from Mao for 300 gold and WM [dance], now we can builds libraries :D. Trade cleo Incence, Lit, wines and 120 gold for iron. Trade Mao wine, incence and 85 gold for dyes and silks. Massive changes to libraries.

400 AD (19): Learn The secrets of Republic start on currency with Poly already available it may be better just to buy it now and research currency on our own. Not to metion the 8 new libraries all due in the next 4-15 turns :D. Also of note we can start building swords, any city that has barracks should be put on swords within the next 20 turns before cleo rethinks her trade. There are also 3 reg warrior that can but upgraded for 40 gold each, not so sure it is wort it.

Current events: Made peace with China, know where the Vikings are but need to suicide a galley and survive. Maybe a good idea for the next player. Research is on Currency but can be changed. I have NOT revolted, some libraries can be whipped now for multiple citizens 2-3, then revolt. I will leave that up to UU and any discussion. Also of note we have 625 gold in the bank, new lux deals for silk and dyes, and a 20 turn iron deal. None of these deals shall be broken. Lets make contact with the rest of the world so we can spread the word.

Good luck UU!

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_400_AD.zip

Heimdall

Feb 04, 2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Beiging is very close to our boarders infact Valencia may be a possible flip risk, can cities flip across waters???
I've seen cities flip to civs that only have one city left and are halfway across the (huge) map, so yes, cities can flip across water ;)

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Cleo asked our galley to leave and will not sign a ROP because of what we did to Arabia :(. I thought it was China we sneak attacked.
I guess we sneak-attacked Arabia, too :rolleyes:

Originally posted by meldor
1075 BC (7)
The brothers have gathered and moved towards Anjar. Abu, afraid of our rightous cause asks us to leave, the brothers refuse and a holy war begins.

meldor

Feb 04, 2003, 08:08 AM

The initial war with them was conducted honorably, however, you do take a slight rep hit for taking a civ out. Sometimes it is best to stop at one city (if another civ is allied with you) and let someone else take the last one out. However, we didn't have that luxury this time and our rep was already dirt.

hotrod0823

Feb 04, 2003, 08:22 AM

No problem I just expected Cleo to mention China not Arabia.

Our rep I think is improving, with enough gold cleo will make a ROP and even gpt was an option when I conducted trading towards the end of the rounds.

Hotrod

Unique Unit

Feb 04, 2003, 08:29 AM

Nice turn, Hotrod! Good to get a spell of peaceful building, and to obtain literature.
Got it. This humble servant of God will look the over now, play tonight.

Unique Unit

Feb 05, 2003, 03:42 PM

Yikes. 400 ad and we're still in the ancient age. His Holiness Unito II strides to the pulpit to urge his flock to multiply, prosper and advance. Two false faiths have spread across a broader continent to the west, and meanwhile the rest of the world is still cloaked in darkness. We must redouble our faith, for we are doing His work.
Specifically, after reviewing the state of affairs, I decide to commit to 2 strategies -- which may prove premature and costly, but seem to me urgently necessary. I decide to trigger a revolt and switch to republic, figuring growth and commerce are desperately wanted (even if we take a short-term happiness hit while finishing up researching on currency and throwing marketplaces together). And I decide it will be worth exploring the shrouded oceans for contact -- especially as neither China nor Egypt has made contacts with the undiscovered civs, so we might get a window of trade with an unblemished rep (the lost civs not yet learning of our perfidy in dealing with the Chinese idol-worshippers), creating gpt for tech opportunities.

So, to summarize moves: I let library construction continue, and set large cities (that don't need harbors) on marketplace pre-builds.
I revolt, and switch to republic next turn. (Currency research drops from 12 to 9 turns, even after raising taxes to 60% to avoid running a deficit, so the switch seems to have been adviseable.)
I send the galleys off exploring. These most holy quests result in one galley sinking in furious, storm-tossed ocean waters to our east (may God rest the souls of our lost sailors), and a long journey in and out of Chinese and Egyptian coastal waters (even at the risk of annoying them).

Other developments: Vikings build Sun Tzu at Troundheim, 410 ad.

China declares war on Egypt, 430 ad. (I considered joining the fun, but we did not seem ready yet.)

Had to hire an entertainer for Glory as its population maxed.

On the diplomatic front: I held off on buying polytheism from either China or Egypt. Don't know if that was wise or not. We could trade republic to Egypt for most of Cleo's gold and poly. But it's only 5 turns to research, so I gambled we would be able to swap republic for mono.
China offered alliance against Egypt, straight up. So our "sneak attack" did not completely alienate Mao? :confused:

Good luck to our next leader!
(Our lack of geographical knowledge of the Chinese/Egyptian interior makes the prospect of invasion quite daunting. This aspect of the varient is more challenging than I realized.)

The save:

The Chosen, 500 ad (http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_500_ad.zip)

Unique Unit

Feb 05, 2003, 03:50 PM

I know our people are deeply distrustful of these "maps" that circulate among foreigners, for as we all know true navigation depends on celestial orientation, not earthly pictures. Nevertheless, here are several views, hand-copied by our devout monks, of the Holy Land.

To the North:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_500_ad_north.JPG

And (with some overlap) to the South:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_500_ad_south.JPG

Unique Unit

Feb 05, 2003, 03:53 PM

Follow up thoughts:
Pamplona revolted on my last turn. Doh! Should have caught that.
Glory can probably be micromanaged for more efficient production.

LordMongoose

Feb 05, 2003, 03:56 PM

Rename Salamanca something like The Lird's Truth, in keeping with the theme.

meldor

Feb 05, 2003, 04:03 PM

Meldor after abtaining enlightenment (and finishing the scripture according to LK37) will most humbly assume the role of shepard once again.

hotrod0823

Feb 05, 2003, 04:11 PM

One small question?? UU did you see any whip opportunities before revoltion?? I think most that I had before passing the torch were 2-3 citizen each for whipped libraries. Don't know all the pluses and minuses. Whipping a temple is one thing a library ??? NOT sure??

@meldor: I eagerly await your LK37 and encourage you to finish that first. No hard deadlines here ;).

Unique Unit

Feb 05, 2003, 04:39 PM

Hotrod: I probably should have considered this, but like you, I felt unsure about how to calculate the payoff of a library whip. I would've whipped any harbor possibilities, but those cities seeming to need harbors most had not yet reached critical mass (i.e., pop. 3).
Also, in general, I was leery of whipping when we were going into republic, without being able to get marketplaces for at least 10 turns -- anticipating happiness issues in our largest cities.
Sorry if I weedily missed opportunities here. Would definitely be interested in hearing that I should have pulled out the whip.

Borealis

Feb 05, 2003, 06:06 PM

Hmmm... what's our military situation? With China already in a war with Egypt, if we have enough galleys close to home to ship 8-10 vet horses/archers over to Canton, and enough cash to rush a temple there, we might get silks. If we also had an extra galley to deposit spearman pillagers near Beijing to occupy their units and possibly slow the city's growth, that would be even better, and deny China extra luxuries heading into their GA period with Riders. We'd definitely have to do this before pikes, but if we did, that extra lux and foothold on their continent would be nice. Of course, let any current deals expire first. :flamedevi

See how many extra silks the Chinese have, and possibly investigate Canton if we have the cash to see the garrison strength there. If we can find the other AI, they'll probably be so far ahead in tech that going min science would be a good bet, judging by the wonders already built. If we can secure enough luxuries by the time we can trade with the other AI, we can probably catch up very quickly.

hotrod0823

Feb 05, 2003, 06:39 PM

No problem UU. The extra unhappiness you get with a whip of a library makes it harder to estimate the payoff. The only real payoff I could see is the longer term addition to the cultural goal and the immediate science boost, as well as the quicker to the 1000 years cultural bonus. The negative is obvisously killing 2-3 citizens, possibly needing more lux tax, especially under republic.

Too many questions in my mind. I really don't have the correct answers, just wanted to point out that option. Maybe some of the Deity players that manage the whip better than I can shed some light on the subject ;).

Hotrod

Unique Unit

Feb 05, 2003, 07:26 PM

Borealis: concentrating on gaining control of luxuries sounds like a sound plan, for the long term.
Short term, I'm afraid we have only one galley (I sank another, exploring), and it's way out of position.
At least one source of Chinese iron is strikingly vulnerable -- on a coastal mountain a few shallow tiles away from our northern coastal cities. (I forget how many sources of iron Mao has.)

Hotrod: I wonder if a cultural victory is falling out of reach, for this game. 500 ad is very late for building libraries and colleseums. We diminish the doubling effect -- that's the killer.
God may be marking out other paths to Glory for his Chosen.

hotrod0823

Feb 05, 2003, 07:30 PM

Yeah I realize culture may not be our thing. Who knows! Cathedrals come cheap. It appears we have some :hammer: warmongers amoung us builder types ;).

Hotrod

Rowain deWolf

Feb 06, 2003, 03:16 AM

Still think you can reach 100k culture but it will be a close race. Remember from 1750 till 2050 you have 200 turns. So anything you get up before 750 AD will give you huge culture then. T put it concret: Any city which has the Temple,Lib,Coliseum and Cathedral at 750 AD will earn you 4000 cp iduring the last 200 turns (and at least 1500 during the turns till 1750AD)

Or another example: If you get up 20 cities with Temple, Lib, Coliseum and Cathedral till 900 AD you will cumulate at least 92.000 culture points till 2050.
And since I calculated this as if all building were built at once in 900AD and did cut out Universities you will reach the 100 k mark earlier.

Your only task is to make sure that no Civ with more then 50k survives.

Good Luck :)

Rowain

Borealis

Feb 07, 2003, 09:42 AM

Just a scheduling note: I'm going to be out of town and away from Civ until Sunday afternoon. Feel free to skip/swap me back into the schedule as necessary.

Gothmog

Feb 07, 2003, 10:03 AM

A note on the use of the whip:
I agree with UU that with republic comming and not enough markets (not any? ouch!) the whip must be handled with care. I haven't looked at your save but I just wanted to mention that sometimes it is worth-while to switch production to something that has about 20 shields left and whip just one citizen, then switch back to whatever you were producing. Single whips are much more handleable than double whips (yikes! to tripple whips - I only do those as a last resort).

hotrod0823

Feb 07, 2003, 10:50 AM

@Gothmog thanks for the feedback ;). Is a whip in a six 6 city that takes 2 citizens the same as a double whip, ie whipping a barracks then changing and then whipping the temple?

Gothmog

Feb 07, 2003, 11:44 AM

Good question. I have always assumed that a double whip is the same as a serial whip. I have never checked this assumption though.

meldor

Feb 07, 2003, 01:14 PM

IIRC, it doesn't matter if you do a double whip or two single whips. People got in the habit of doing the Whip, swap, whip when the first whip got you 40 shields and the second twenty. When you swapped, the bit got reset and you got another 40 for a first whip. Now it doesn't really matter how you do a double whip. The only thing the WSW will get you is when you are ready to switch governments and you want to apply the whip as much as you can before the switch. The you could whip a Rax in a size two town and switch to a library before you revolt. You only use one citizen, but your efforts are speeded up.
As far as the effects for double and single whips, I think there is one penalty about doing it serially, if they are not on the same turn. The second whip (before the effectgs of the first one wears off) gets you 40 turns of unhappy even if the first whip had been done ten earlier. So if you are going to whip serially do it on close turns.

hotrod0823

Feb 08, 2003, 12:19 AM

Borealis
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor <----- playing now
Heimdall (on deck)
Swiftsure

Just a friendly reminder that Meldor is up now and can play and post 10-20 turns in the next couple days.

Also, to reiterate! Honor all 20 turns deals if at all possible. No false peace, no more sneak attacks, no ROP abuse. And the goal is still culuture, a long shot I realize. Temples come first in all captured cities, and NO MAPs of the other Civs. Trade ours away as you see fit. The AI all know the map anyway so why not get something for it.

Good luck to Meldor and Heimdall ! :jesus: :worshp: etc etc ;)

china444

Feb 08, 2003, 06:39 AM

Good good games. Wow u guys got screwed in the beginning

meldor

Feb 08, 2003, 09:26 PM

Meldor the Enlightened asfter many years of study, comes forth. Yet agian the people need a strong hand. We have 9 turns of deals left with both China and Egupt. Unfortunately, it looks as if China is winning under the fog. There is one more spot to settle on the islnad to the north-east, before China fills it all in.

Meldor directs the faithful to begin construction of many galleys. He also directs the warriors to upgrade to swords. The galleys begin dropping horsemen off on the northeastern island and then sailing for the east. The first suicide galley makes it and we have contact with the Scandies.

Meanwhile, the Chinese try to spread a strange cult in our lands. War is declared and we begin to convert their cities. 3 cities are razed and Pangyang is captured and renamed Praise.

There is one settler in a Galley headed to the ice island and a couple more due. We need to quickly resettle the spots we want. I did not sell contacts and left major deals to the next person. We have contact with 4 people now and we should be able to start converting them.

The Greeks built Sistines, everyone else cascaded to Leo's.

Sorry for the short report, but the whole gang has been sick since Wed. It is a lot better today, so I should be able to devote more time to playing.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_700_ad.zip)

hotrod0823

Feb 09, 2003, 12:56 PM

Borealis
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall <---- playing now
Swiftsure (on deck)

hotrod0823

Feb 10, 2003, 06:40 PM

It been over 2 days and no response from Heimdall?? :scan:

Heimdall post a got it tonight or I will skip on to Swiftsure.

Hotrod

Heimdall

Feb 11, 2003, 01:19 AM

Sorry, I did have some problems with my internet connection :(
I'm currently playing, report should be here in just a few hours.

Heimdall

Feb 11, 2003, 03:57 AM

Heimdall the Prophet once again takes control and looks around.
(0) - Not seing something special he lets time go on ...
(1) - Seeing our glorious troops approaching, the infidels of Kaifeng burn their homes and all jump into the sea. The last Chinese is now gone from "Tundra Island".
(2) - Our settlers set sail to the northern island.
(3) - Vitoria is founded
(4) - Nothing happens.
(5) - Again, nothing.
(6) - Our settlers arrive at Tundra Island.
(7) - Santander founded, and peace with China is made. We get Monarchy, 49g and 7gpt from them. Heimdall rejected their funny scraps of paper they call "maps".
Some trading with the other civ ... err, infidels is done. We now are able to build bridges and, even better, Cathedrals to praise the Lord!
(8) - The first Cathedral is built in Glory.
(9) - Nothing happens.
(10) - Boring years.
(11) - More boredom.
(12) - As Heimdall is getting extremely bored he orders the Leader at Glory to run around in circles a bit.
(13) - Finally, something happens: Asturias is founded on Tundra Island.
(14) - The last settler arrives on Tundra Island.
(15) - Jaen is founded.

The rest of my turn was rather uneventful. Lots of cathedrals have been built all over the land. This, and some silks we traded for, enabled us to run at 0% lux at the moment.
A harbor will finish at Santander next turn ... I wanted to use it for bringing our luxes to Tundra Island and only noticed that we can't have a trade route there yet only after rushing it :(

Savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_700_ad.zip)

hotrod0823

Feb 11, 2003, 08:02 AM

Good round Heimdall ! The harbor isn't a bad Idea anyway. With all that ice you can always use the extra food. Cathedrals are always cool.

It's been a while since I've seen the game has anyone done anything with our Leader??

Borealis (on deck)
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure <---- playing now

Heimdall

Feb 11, 2003, 09:56 AM

Nope, Leader still is in Glory since there wasn't anything useful to do with him :rolleyes:

swiftsure

Feb 11, 2003, 12:30 PM

Heimdall, your link seems to go to meldors ZIP? or has my comp finally died on me.

hotrod0823

Feb 11, 2003, 04:42 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_870_AD.zip

Try this one Swiftsure :)

Heimdall

Feb 12, 2003, 01:13 AM

Argh sorry I messed them up :crazyeye:

swiftsure

Feb 12, 2003, 01:50 AM

got it now

swiftsure

Feb 14, 2003, 01:47 PM

Sorry for the delay and shortness of report but RL is being a pain.

880ad santander builds harbour and starts temple,trade wines and incense to celts for ivory, wines and incense to scandanavia for 14gpt and wines and incense to greece for 10gpt. begin to bring horsemen and archers back to main island.

890ad hire scientist in asturias, working at min sci towards invention

900ad wrath completes courthouse starts marketplace

910ad praise revolts, missed that one, hire taxman
glory builds spearman and starts palace just as a general pre-build

920ad trade chivalry,w/m and 255gp to china for education. glory,faith and forgiven changed to university

930ad santiago builds harbour starts cathedral. murcia builds aquaduct starts university.
Can trade w/m and 475gp to celts for music theory... bachs with bart. long pause for thought but finally goes for it bachs hurried in glory.

940ad bachs built in glory and starts university

950ad madrid builds aquaduct and starts university

960ad -

970ad we lose supply of silks from egypt, we can trade wines and incense to them for gold but i dont.

980ad-

We can make some expensive deals for either iron or invention with scandanavia but i'm not sure this is the time to do them.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2-980ad.zip

Borealis

Feb 14, 2003, 02:07 PM

Got it. Probably closer to 48 than 24 due to being up in Phys1 and Singles' Awareness Day.

hotrod0823

Feb 14, 2003, 03:34 PM

Borealis <---- Playing Now
Hotrod (on Deck)
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

Bach's is :coool:!

Unique Unit

Feb 15, 2003, 01:31 PM

I agree: Bach's was a good call. We had to use the leader on something , after all.
We want to anticipate and begin strategically planning for conquistadors/golden age, IMO. We need to take advantage of this boost to gain an edge somehow over the AI civs -- perhaps by going to war against China?

Borealis

Feb 16, 2003, 05:32 AM

Pre-turn 980 AD (0): Would you just look at all those fuming AI faces on the diplomacy screen- I think we need some new 'tools' to aid in spreading the Lord's word to the world. The military advisor says "Hail to the Queen, baby!" while reporting that we have an average military relative to China, a weak military relative to the Celts or Vikings, and a strong military relative to Egypt, Greece, or Azteca. Egypt is going down the tubes as Thebes is seen turned pink by the recent Chinese redecoration. The other continent is way ahead in tech, and doesn't need more enriching of their coffers, so I wait on the iron deal and buy embassies to possibly detect future pile-ons so we can enlighten... foreign nations to the wisdom of renegotiated peace, if necessary, if their neighbors are so barbaric as to attack them.

An embassy in Greece reveals a Knight due in 1 turn, a full array of cultural and scientific buildings, and the Sistine Chapel. Athens has four hoplites and is currently size 6 and growing. with two extra food- it will max out at 8 or so without more jungle cleared as it has no irrigated squares. Entremont, in the Viking nation, looks like anyone would want their city to look in the Middle Ages- 12 citizens, high food and shield production, and EIGHT luxuries to augment the full complement of buildings, while able to make WEALTH. We are going to have to do something about them, or Ragnar will laugh at us through the clear plastic window of his spaceship. Garrison: don't even think about trying to take it. Trondheim is almost worse at size 11 and a river, all buildings, the Great Library, Sun Tzu's, also all the luxuries, and full of beserks to boot. Tenochtitlan is more encouraging; just four luxuries, the Pyramids, size 12, too much food, and still building a university to help educate the combined spears and cats stationed there. We are going to have to do some major catching up, and soon. :cry:

The Greeks and the Vikings happen to be at war currently, but aside from the already-evident Chinese smackdown of Egypt, everyone is happily trading luxuries with each other.

MM of tiles between Faith and Glory as Glory's extra food is useless at size 12, while finishing the University there a few turns earlier is definitely useful. Other cities are doing fine with what they can with the current level of improved tiles.

990 AD(1): Pamplona Aqueduct->Market. Zaragoza Cathedral->Harbor. Praise Temple->Harbor.

1000 AD (2): Lord's Fire Harbor->Market and MM'ed to grow.

1010AD (3): Hand of God Cathedral->Aqueduct.

1020 AD (4): Diplo check reveals that the Chinese have *4* extra iron- any attack on them will have a difficult time cutting off resources and will need heavy support with defenders to hold cities from the mainland. Continued ferrying offensive units to Madrid, which seems to be the staging area for any military expedition.

(IT): Purple Viking caravel spotted in ocean near Greek city. A large Beserk contingent is headed for a small hoplite-defended town- Alex may be gassed if Ragnar can handle the WW. Ragnar demands TM + 71 gold, and seeing the massive amount of Beserks he has available I cave for now. He's on our list for later.

1030 AD (5): Valencia Library->Market. Vitoria Temple->Harbor. Santander Temple-> Market. Viking cities defended by muskets.

(IT): Greece and the Vikings sign a peace treaty- either Alex gave up concessions and/or Ragnar had WW problems, because Bezerks vs. Hoplites=dead Greek heroes.

1040 AD (6): Glory University->Horseman. Faith University->Horseman. The Vikings start Smith's and Magellan's.

1050 AD (7): Wrath of Angels Market->Aqueduct. Word of God Library->Aqueduct. Egypt is down to two cities.

1060 AD (8): Barcelona->University. Seville->Market. Forgiven->Harbor. For now, I'm not rushing buildings- we're going to need to buy our way to Navigation. There are beserks running all over the Viking shoreline.

1070 AD (9): China has Astronomy and PP, but lacks Banking- I acquire it from Alex, at cheap prices, for 884 gold. Banking + 237 gold gets Astronomy from Mao. The Aztecs are doubtful on Astronomy but will trade Banking for Invention as a straight-up deal; they must be researching Astro. I hold off on the trade for now, to see if Monty gets more gold- I think Banking's worth more than just Invention to him. Navigation is not buyable from anyone yet, but we can research it now if we buy or finish Invention.

1080 AD (10): Toledo Aqueduct->Market. Buying Astronomy means that Tundra Island will be happy once the worker hooks it all up in another turn. Alexandria was razed last turn; Egypt is down to its last city and should be considered dead on the first turn or two of the next leader's set. The Celts, Vikings, and Greeks are in Anarchy, and so have probably just obtained Democracy- expect the tech pace to pick up. :( It's time to show the world our :love: by wielding the :hammer: as our troops are now returned to home soil, ready to spread the Word. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2-980ad1.zip)

hotrod0823

Feb 16, 2003, 09:35 AM

I have the game but will not get to it until late tonight or possibly tomorrow.

Borealis
Hotrod <----- playing now
Unique Unit (on deck)
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

hotrod0823

Feb 16, 2003, 01:43 PM

1080 AD (0): Save said 980 but it is indeed 1080 AD. From the looks of things we are in a position for a trade. We'll see if I can get it done. Trade Monty Banking for Invention. Trade the Celt 675 gold for Economics. Trade Moa Econ for Printing Press straight up. Trade Monty PP and Economics for Gunpowder. Begin 40 turns of research on Navigation at 0% we get 160 gpt. There is 1 source of Saltpeter in our desert. Cancel the Incense and wines to the Vikings in hopes of improving the deal and endup losing 14gpt :smoke:.

1090 AD (1): There are 7 more turns of peace with Moa, he has muskets and Riders. Lack of Iron is killing us and the best possiblity is to take Canton and Claim it for ourselves but with muskets and pikes our horsemen and archer army is outclassed. Upgrade 1 spear to Musket a 80 gold proposition, and 1 archer to longbow 40 gold :(. Once infrastructure completes start on some fresh muskets.

1100 AD (2): Glory and Faith build horsemen start muskets. NO one will trade me Navigation, chemistry or Democracy and forget about gpt deals :(. Load up 3 galleys to see if just maybe we can take Giza before China does. :hammer:.

1110 AD (3): Okay nevermind the Rampaging Chinese have destroyed the Egyptians. Change Glory to a settler and go Max food.

1120 AD (4): Glory builds Settler starts musket.

1130 AD (5): At 694 gold we are close to buying Navigation.

1140 AD (6): Pamplona builds Market starts library. Buy Navigation from the Greeks for 785 gold :eek:. Too much to pay maybe. Reup a 14gpt deal with the Vikings, they only get wines. Trade the Aztecs incences, wines and Navigation for Furs and Gems.

1150 AD (7): Glory and Faith build muskets each starts Conquistadors. WLTQD spreads across the land. Upgrade 1 galley to a caravel. Going to try and shoe horn a city onto China's continent.

1160 aD (8): NO trades move out the caravel with 2 muskets and a settler.

1170 aD (9): Wrath builds Aqueduct starts Granary. Trade the vikes incense for 15 gpt. Improve teh Greeks incense and wines for gold deal to 12gpt.

1180 AD (10): Murcia builds university starts bank. We cannot buy Chemistry with our 826 gold :(. Chemistry can be researched ourselves in 5 turns with a small loss of 8 gpt. Greeks just started Newtons so they are ahead at least by ToG. Our army is weak compared with the Vikes and the Celts, Average with China and Greece and Strong compared with Aztecs.

2 Conquistadors are started and will finish soon. The peace treaty with China has just recently expired. My main concern with fighting another war with China is our horsey, archer army vs. his muskets/riders. :(. Overall an uneventful turn except for a few heavy rounds of trades and piking up Invention, Guns, PP, Navigation, and Economics. Chemistry should be had either through purchase or self research.

Here is the Save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1180AD.zip

Unique Unit

Feb 16, 2003, 03:48 PM

Sorry, folks, I have to skip a round here. Mired in RL issues -- and expected to be pinned down for another week or so. :(
Good luck.

hotrod0823

Feb 16, 2003, 04:11 PM

Borealis
Hotrod
Unique Unit [skipped as requested]
Meldor <---- up now
Heimdall ( on deck)
Swiftsure

meldor

Feb 18, 2003, 07:55 AM

Sorry, didn't see this one, I thought UU was up and I was save...well go tonight.

meldor

Feb 18, 2003, 09:54 PM

Meldor the Pious returns. Looking at what little gains have been made in spreading the word he pours over the details and decides on a course of action.

We buy iron for the outragous price of 117gpt. We then spend all the money upgrading horses to knights and galleys to caravels.

In 1240 AD Chinese peace negotiations break down and war is declared. 12 Knights land near Canton, with 3 more the next turn. By 1250 we have Canton and have renamed it Pestulance. Do to the Glory of God, our Civilization enters a Golden Age.

During the defense of Pestilance, a great leader emerges. He is ordered back to the mainland and now sits in a Caravel to be unloaded. Unfortunately, time ran out before Meldor could move on Beijing.

Ther are two Muskets on a Caravel coming up the coast to drop of in Canton. Once the Chinese use up their counter attackers we can raze Beijing and have a source of iron. I rushed the temple in Pestilance and we have 729g left with 300gpt income. I would suggest we start stealing the techs to get us to the next age. At least one of the AI is already ther and we we don't put it in gear we will lose ToE.

Smith's, Magellan's, and Shakespears all got built in one big cascade.

Heimdall, you unfortunately have the difficult task of following a glorified warmonger. This is twice in a row I have left you to deal with a Chinese war. Good Luck. Maybe nexy turn I will be peaceful.....

Hot2 1265 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1265AD.zip)

meldor

Feb 18, 2003, 09:56 PM

BTW, the good news is that we could do a gpt deal for the Iron. The bad news is that we had to pay that much. If we break no more deals, it should get better.

Remember to save the money and steal techs. It wil be cheaper and it won't put the money in the AI hands. Unfortunately, it also carries a risk of war, but thats a bonus! :hammer:

hotrod0823

Feb 18, 2003, 11:25 PM

Meldor the warmonger continues! Sorry if I left you in a rough spot yet again. I must be too much of a peaceful sort :blush:. Wasn't sure if the iron deal was worth it during my 10 but it pays off now that we will have our own source in Chinese territory :D.

Borealis
Hotrod
UU
Meldor
Heimdall <-- up now
Swiftsure

meldor

Feb 19, 2003, 04:00 PM

We will have that source only once we raze and replace Canton. This should also bring the Chinese to the table.

Heimdall

Feb 20, 2003, 12:58 AM

Again Heimdall takes control, and again we're at war.
(0) - Looking around I notice that there are many outdated units (Horses, Archers) fortified in backline cities - wake 'em up and get 'em underway to the next barracks. On the diplo side, "The best units the Greeks have is the Cavalry" - oooops. While MM'ing I notice that Forgiven is on Mag's Voyage which already has been built - switched off and end turn.
(1) - Shuffled some troops around. Noticed that we can do 4-turn-research without running deficit, so research is started.
(2) - More troop shuffling
(3) - Even more shuffling, harbor in Pestilance hurried to get the silks online.
(4) - Due to the silks WLTQD spread across the land. Troops are ferried to (former) chinese soil.
(5) - Our last troops are moved into attack positions.
(6) - Pestilance is finally down to 1 citizen. Our glorious crusaders commence the attack on Bejing. Knights vs. fortified muskets is .. tough, but we finally succeed and burn that evil place to the ground. The city of Revenge is founded as a replacement, but the Chinese infidels refuse to talk.
(7) - The chinese counter-attack is .. not successful at all. But they still won't talk.
(8) - A temple is hurried in Revenge. The chinese finally are willing to talk, giving us Physics for peace. Various other (luxury) trades are made.
(9) - Nothing special.
(10) - Built some muskets and now start shipping them around, with the goal to have 2 defenders (at least 1 modern) in every city.
The remaining turns where rather uneventful. Our caravels have been upgraded, our Knights are now Cavs. The golden age has ended, but we are now in the industrial era.
I started building some cannon (Artillery always is useful) and our combined troops are stationed at Santiago. If you want to bring further pain to China, now is the time to do it.
There is a leader at Barcelona, lurking for ToE. Bad news: even for 450gpt nobody will trade us tech (Nationalism or Steam Power).

Savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1365AD.zip)

hotrod0823

Feb 21, 2003, 01:12 AM

Borealis (on Deck)
Hotrod
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure <---- Playing Now

swiftsure

Feb 21, 2003, 02:02 AM

got it, will play and post tonight

swiftsure

Feb 21, 2003, 01:44 PM

a very quick report i'm afraid due to RL. will only note the important events.

Preturn notice we are still giving 117gpt to Ragnar for Iron although we have our own supply now. Start prebuild in glory for either a wonder or factory.

1380ad cancel the iron deal

1385ad trade 1735gp and w/m to Ragnar for steam power,we have one source of coal on the icy island.

1390ad move some troops back to the chinese mainland to discourage any chinese aggression

1415ad trade 2050gp andw/m to Brennus for Industrialization, trade Ind and 170gp for medicine to Mao and trade steam power to Aztecs for democracy. change glory to factory and then revolt.

1420ad Democracy founded, coal hooked up and then trade Medicine and Ind to aztecs for gems/furs/free artistry,7gpt and 30gp

1435ad trade 1900gp and w/m to Ragnar for the corperation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Isabella_of_the_Spanish,_1450_AD.SAV

we are now producing 500+ gpt, enough to buy tech every 5 or so turns(or if need be steal them)

Alex has refining and everyone else has Nationalism.

hotrod0823

Feb 21, 2003, 01:51 PM

we have one source of coal on the icy island.

Wow the resources we have or rather don't have are amazing!

Borealis <---- Playing Now
Hotrod (on Deck)
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

Borealis

Feb 23, 2003, 11:14 PM

Hotrod, can you swap places with me? I've come down with the flu, and have just now regained enough sense to remember that I was up... I should be well enough to catch the next turn, but I'll need another day to do that. Thanks.

hotrod0823

Feb 23, 2003, 11:16 PM

No Problem! Hope you feel better :)

Borealis (on Deck)
Hotrod <---- Playing Now
Unique Unit
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

hotrod0823

Feb 24, 2003, 08:06 PM

Well took a quick look and noticed our Guy Chrisotopher Columbus is around and I am now considering options. I am inclined to use him for an army but Sufferage is available and if we go to war again under Democracy we will need it. But if we don't take sufferage an army is in order to get the Epic, and the military academy and pentagon.

The last option is holding out for the ToE and ensuring Hoover. We held our last leader forever I don't think we want to keep chris around for too much longer. Also, research has been off and we have been keeping up with cash but as Meldor pointed out the other are getting the cash from us. Electricity can be had in 9 turns. I think that now is the time to research and get Scientific Method first.

Looking for feedback before I start. :)

Hotrod

meldor

Feb 24, 2003, 10:31 PM

Sound like a very good plan, I don't think that US is as important for us as we are religous and aren't hurt by shifting gears to fight WW. ToE and hoover would be big if we can get hoover on the Vhinese island and then transfer our capital there. Otherwise it would be little more than a denial of it to the others. Not that free hydro plants aren't nice, but our home island is a little smalll and not of the best quality. If used for an army, then you must be prepared to use it. I would guess that we would at least face rifles.

I would go ToE and Hoover's just for the science boost and to get us at least some techs to go for 2for1 deals. If we can beat the Chinese to infantry and then tanks we have a pretty good shot at taking them out and really setting ourselves up to trim the others culture. If we are to win this by culture we need to stop everyone else from getting too much more. Maybe surgical strikes to raze the infidels idols and wonders. We don't need to kill them off, just get rid of any thousand year bonuses on big buildings.

Heimdall

Feb 25, 2003, 01:21 AM

I'd suggest using the leader on ToE and building Hoover manually.
As Meldor pointed out, as a religious civ we won't be hurt by switching off Democracy to fight a war, so Suffrage wouldn't make too much sense.
Regarding Hoover - building it on our home island would give us benefits in short-term (read: war) production, while building it on the now-chinese-island would be better long-term. We'd need to secure that whole chinese island for ourselves, though.
Since it won't be too long until Infantry is around we have two options if we want to cut down the Chinese - attacking with Cavs now or waiting for tanks, since Cavs vs. Inf is ... risky :rolleyes:

swiftsure

Feb 25, 2003, 03:20 AM

I think the leader for ToE and build hoovers in Glory. Only thing that worries me if we research on our own but someone gets to SM before us we could lose ToE in a cascade from US.

hotrod0823

Feb 25, 2003, 11:29 PM

Hot2

1450 AD (0): Move all our cavalry just outside of the Chinese Capital boarders. Perhaps I will go for a tech steal ??? Next turn as I will have a few infrastucture buildings completeing and will be able to switch to unit contstruction. I am reluctant to attack because there is a MPP with Greece that will be enabled and war on 2 fronts is not in the cards. Set research to 70% get electricity in 9 turn with -4gpt.

1455 AD (1): Glory completed the coal plant and starts on the stock exchange. Pestilence builds market starts library, Word of God, cathedral starts university. Hand of God courthouse, library. Jaen temple starts library. Attempt to steal tech from China and immediately for 1200 gold and it works :(. We get Nationalism :). But no war. Trade Monty the Corporation for Espionage and 2 gold.

1460 AD (2): Madrid builds factory starts CIA.

1465 AD (3): Greeks now have Steel, refining, and communism. They are the tech leaders by far.

1470 AD (4): Electricity is still 5 turns out and not known by anyone else yet.

1475 AD (5): Lots of Rails being laid. Renegociate our lux deals with Greece and we now get +4gpt. Aztecs will sign a MPP as will everybody else.

1480 aD (6): Glory builds Stock exchange. Lords Fire builds aqueduct starts library. Faith Builds factory starts stock exchange. NO changes on the tech front. We sign a MPp with Scandanivia for 1 gold. He is now Polite. Consider going to war with China but concerned about our lack of defensive units at home and on the China mainland. Rifles will be a priority. As is rails we need a complete network to move troop effectively. We can't go to war until the railnet is complete.

1485 AD (7): More rails Glory builds a rifle starts another. China and Vikes sign MPP :(. Electricity next turn +165 gold.

1490 aD (8): Learn Electricity start on Scientific Method due in 6 turns without lose. Can get steel and refining for electricity right now but decide to wait. Don't want to lose out on SM and the ToE.

Lost a turn somewhere :(.

1500 AD (10): SM due in 5 at 70% with +5gpt. With 4 turns possible I decide to make the trades. Vikings give us 311 gold and 10gpt. And to the Celts for Communism. Scientific Method can be learned in 4. There are 2 connected oil sources and 2 more within our boarders. Our rails are improving but not complete. A few rifles are around but infantry will be here soon enough.

Yet another unproductive round from yours truely. Well we are on pace to grab ToE and if we want Hoover now is the time to decide if we want a prebuild in Glory or Revenge. Good tech round picking up Steel, refining, Nationalism, Communism, Espionage, and Electricity. Couple Stock Exchanges are complete or in the works and the CIA is being built. Not much else to say.

Good luck Borealis!

Here is the save.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1500AD.zip

hotrod0823

Feb 26, 2003, 07:06 PM

Borealis <---- Playing Now after the swap
Hotrod
Unique Unit (on deck ???)
Meldor
Heimdall
Swiftsure

Borealis

Feb 27, 2003, 05:41 AM

Got it.

Borealis

Feb 28, 2003, 05:02 PM

Question: what's our situation with the new patch? I can hold off if necessary, as I have some MOOing to do after my SG responsibilities... but if we can patch without messing up the savegame, we should. I'll play & post later tonight or early tomorrow morning- if I don't see anything, I'll leave it unpatched.

hotrod0823

Feb 28, 2003, 06:24 PM

Darn - timing of the patch is rough! I am pretty sure that the inf2 game with Sirian will most likely continue with 1.14f. That seems to be Sirian position all along. Additionally, Cracker and the GOTM staff were to release the first GOTM for PTW and he has made it clear that the game has not been tested with the new patch and it at first glance appears that it will be under 1.14f as well.

Base on those 2 game that I intend to be involved in for the near future I would be inclinded to leave this game unpatched and complete as is.

These are purely selfish reasons but may reasons none the less. I don't know what Lee's position will be on the new patch (that is the third SG I and Meldor are both playing in).

Rather than holdup the game I would suggest that Borealis plays under the current patch and I would really like to see what other games are doing before making a final decision. I really do not want to swap back and forth. I am not even sure how to do that effectively. I know many players did in fact do that from the 1.21 - 1.29 patches and it was very confusing for all involved. From the initial read of the change a vast majority involve Multiplayer.

Enough ranting about swapping. Any other thoughts on the subject would be appriciated.

Hotrod

meldor

Feb 28, 2003, 10:27 PM

I would suggest not patching, see Lee's post on the last page of the LK39 game.

hotrod0823

Mar 01, 2003, 12:03 AM

Works for me. Lets play this one out on 1.14f

Hotrod

Borealis

Mar 01, 2003, 07:05 AM

In The Year of Our Lord 1500, the followers of the Lord are divinely happy, with numerous native and imported luxuries gracing our temples. Aside from Ragnar Lobrok, the pagans of the world are jealous of this bounty, glaring at us from the gates of their embassies. Examining the situation, Borabella decides to depend on the future enlightenment of Chinese territory, rushing a Factory in Revenge in order to start preparations for a massive project predicted by the priest-advisors, the Hoover Dam. As China has a deal with the two-faced Ragnar Lobrok, and we are currently sending them gold, Borabella decides to wait on an immediate war, and let her successor decide whether to attack at the end of his turn.

In the Year of Our Lord 1505, the Greeks grant their people Universal Suffrage. Perhaps they will, in time, allow their people to freely choose their religion as well.

In the Year of Our Lord 1520, the Vikings demand our Territory Map, as well as some of the contents of our treasury. Borabella refers Ragnar to the Inquisitors, and he balks at attacking us, not expecting them.

In the Year of Our Lord 1525, the Scientific Method is developed. We are on the cutting edge of technology, the Greeks having chosen to go the way of Combustion, and so Glory is ordered to build the Theory of Evolution, being able to do so in a mere ten spans of the annals of civilization. Research on Replaceable Parts, completed at a loss of a mere two gold coins for every counting of the treasury, is ordered to be completed in eight turns, allowing its discovery before the great project in Glory will be completed. The great leader Columbus boards a galleon at Santiago, ready to complete any project at Revenge should he be needed. In Revenge, a Coal Plant is hurried, increasing future production there so that Columbus may be allowed to work on future projects.

In the Year of Our Lord 1535, the first sign of pollution drifts over from foreign lands, and the brave converts from other lands cleanse it. Seeing that the great rail network connecting the Lord's people to each other is almost completed, they then congregate around Glory, seeking to raise it to new heights.

In the Year of Our Lord 1550, Borabella notes the pace of technology and the Theory of Evolution, and orders that more of the Lord's bounty be given to the taxmen while the great project in Glory is being completed. Noting that Replaceable Parts could be available to the nation in one turn of the Lord's favor, Borabella shuts down research for the time being in order to replenish the treasury, to be restarted to time exactly with the completion of the great project. As everyone but the Aztecs have knowledge of this technology, the costs of researching it have dramatically decreased.

Retiring from her leadership of the blessed Spanish nation, Borabella calls on her successor (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot2_1550ad.zip) to mark the correct timing of Replacable Parts, and the rush to Motorized Transportation, that we may show the the Lord's glory to more of the Chinese people.