Okay, here is the first Mac Training Day Game, featuring Greece. Details below:

-Standard Map
-Sedentary Barbarians
-Greater Continents
-Climate: Normal
-Temperature: Temperate
-Age: 4 billion
-Difficulty Level: Regent
-Victory Condition: All activated

NOTES:

(1) I chose regent as the difficulty level because its an even playing field between human and AI. If its too much, I'll generate another game; however, since players will be getting advice every ten (10) turns, it shouldn't be too overwhelming.

(2) Victory Goal --- Space Race.

(3) Civ --- Greece. A couple comments about Greece's traits. First, the scientific trait is geared towards research, for s/r vcitory. Second, the commercial trait will encourage trade and diplomacy with the other civs. In addition, Greece's UU (Hoplite, 1-3-1) provides additional defense, for cities and to protect early offensive units in battle.

(4) Golden Age (GA) --- The GA will likely come early, either by a UU victory or construction of an early Great Wonder (GW), such as Colossus.

(5) Please refer to the short summary for the MTDG, located in the SG/MTDG sticky. IIRC, each "student" plays ten (10) turns, post a detailed report of what occured each turn, and wait for feedback before beginning his/her next ten turns. Also, it is important to upload your saved game so "teachers" may provide specific advice.

Enjoy! :)

Pic here. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/startingloaction1.jpg)

Ok, just a couple of questions.

1. Do the teachers play as well, or do the teachers just comment on what the students do?

2. Do the games continue on their own from each persons seperate save, or will we continue from one "best" save, as was proposed in the other thread?

3. Am I a teacher? :rolleyes: :D

EDIT: Not too bad of a starting location there.

Originally posted by DiamondzAndGunz
Ok, just a couple of questions.

1. Do the teachers play as well, or do the teachers just comment on what the students do?

2. Do the games continue on their own from each persons seperate save, or will we continue from one "best" save, as was proposed in the other thread?

3. Am I a teacher? :rolleyes: :D

EDIT: Not too bad of a starting location there.

1. Yes.

2. Discussion should select the best save to continue the game; however, should the save be a "student's" or a "teacher's." I vote "students."

3. Sure. I believe as we get going, it won't matter. But, I think a "teacher" is identified from the start (PC equivalent TDG), as are 4 - 5 students. Otherwise, the poor "teacher" could be overwhelmed. However, I believe the size of our community, for now, allows for more flexibility.

I wouild define a teacher as a player being able to at least win most of his games on the next higher level, i.e. monarch for this game.

I do not consider it a good idea, that teachers (as defined above) post their games to this forum, because they should be able to advance faster and thus scew the next turn by giving advance information, e.g. on strategic resource locations.
Do we need a spoiler thread for their posts? Might be a good idea.

I agree, that it would much ease the thread to choose a "best" or "best educational" game for continuing.

Originally posted by tao
I wouild define a teacher as a player being able to at least win most of his games on the next higher level, i.e. monarch for this game.

Good criteria.

Originally posted by tao I do not consider it a good idea, that teachers (as defined above) post their games to this forum, because they should be able to advance faster and thus scew the next turn by giving advance information, e.g. on strategic resource locations.

True, only feedback. Maybe, a censored pic would add to the process.

Originally posted by tao Originally posted by tao Do we need a spoiler thread for their posts? Might be a good idea.

Probably, this one can be used to iron out details for play.

I would love to participate, although I can play regent games without a problem. But when I go to Monarch I get murdered. Mind if I participate but in Monarch?

Originally posted by dixonbm
Mind if I participate but in Monarch?

You may play of course, but it would be bad to post results in this thread. On monarch research is faster and you spoil the "uncertainty of the future" for the other players.

I'll just play the regular game i suppose. Where and when do we post?

BTW dojoboy, where in TN do you live?

Originally posted by dixonbm


BTW dojoboy, where in TN do you live?

Howdy neighbor! :wavey:

I'm in Chattanooga. :goodjob:

Dojo, thanks so much for taking this on this time. I really appreciate it. It will be either tonight or tomorrow night before I can download this and do the turns, but I'm here so please count me in! (I expect I will get my proverbial #$% kickedon Regent, since I am currently ranking only 3rd or 4th in the Warlord level game I'm playing, but I hope to learn a lot.) I hope this will be fun for everyone and lead to some interesting discussions as well as helping us all to get better at the game.

:goodjob:

I've played 20 turns, and am ready to comment!

I guess we need some "students" to submit their summaries. Txurce, keep your feedback to the first ten turns. TDG's are set for 10 turn increments, unless we feel things will not get out of hand for "students' in 20 turns.

Well, I can't open the save file. I've tried downloading it in Safari, Netscape, and Explorer. Everything keeps telling me it's an unknown file type, and it comes across as "attachment.php". I have told OS X to open it with Civ III and changed the name and extension (to .SAV), but Civ III won't open it - doesn't recognize it as a saved file. Stuffit Expander will not have anything to do with it, either. Any suggestions? I have OS 10.2.3 (latest update of Jaguar) and my Civ III is patched to 1.21g. I do not, however, have "resedit" or anything like it. :(

I have the same problem, but it's not too hard to fix. Click the file, and Go to the file menu -> Get Info (or just Cmd-I). Got to name and extension, and change the extension to .sav there. When it asks you if you want to change it to .sav, tell it to change it. That should do it. Then just put it into your Save folder.

Diamondz, that didn't work! I had to download Resedit, run it in Classic, and change the type and creator. Sheesh! Got it done, tho, and here's my synopsis.

4000 BC - Looks like a great start. Fresh water and everything. Because of Snoopy terrain mod can see lux in SW, but not worth moving away from fresh water. Founded Athens right where we stand. Moved worker east to head for cow after improving bonus grassland. Set research to iron working and science to 20% since that was the lowest value that gets us iron working in the same # of turns. Started building warrior. Could have built Hoplite but takes twice as long and not much to threaten us this early.

3950 BC - Set worker to build mine on bonus grassland in E.

3900 BC, 3850 BC, 3800 BC - nothing happened.

3750 BC - built warrior. Pop still 1 & growth not imminent, build another warrior. Moved warrior SE.

3700 BC - Move warrious SE again, see lux is silks and more water; can't tell if fresh or salt yet. Hey, a minor tribe off to the E!

3650 BC - Worker finishes mine, starts road in same tile. Warrior moves E towards minor tribe.

3600 BC - Warrior collects 25 g from minor tribe. :( Water to SE is ocean.

3550 BC - Second warrior finished, pop growth in 1 turn. Time to start building settler. New warrior moves west since S is likely more ocean and we need to find site for 2nd city. Game saved.

PS - what is "auto-explore" and how does one use it??

Sorry that it didn't work, heike! There has to be a reason for it, although I don't know what it is....

Auto-explore sets the unit to go around and just explore wherever there is undiscovered terrain. I usually set my ships to autoexplore to scan around coasts for islands and such, but do most of my land exploration myself. You can just press "E" and that will set the unit to explore. I believe just about any unit can do this. Just be careful when using units such as workers to explore ;)

EDIT: BTW, I'm done with my 10 turns as well. Just thought it would be worth mentioning.

Heike, your first ten turns are pretty much on the money. Improving the cattle tile is the worker's top priority, but getting there efficiently makes a big difference, and you're doing it just like Cracker suggests. Setting research at 20% is smart, and even smarter is going for an advanced tech, which will put you in a better position to trade with the AI later on. Choosing iron working over, say, writing is a matter of personal preference. Finally, you've done a good job of exploring the immediate area.

About all I can critique - and it's minor, but every turn means a lot at the start - it's that you were probably better off building a hoplite rather than a second warrior. The reason? It would leave you perfectly aligned to build a settler as your pop hits 3. As it is, you may be wasting a few shields... but you may be able to negate this by moving your city workers around over the next several turns.

I thought about it (building a hoplite second) but I decided better to have another "explorer" that can go in a different direction as quickly as possible. Can always try it both ways and see how it affects outcome.

Re the cattle tile (is it a faux pas to call it a cow :blush: ?) i guess the BIG controversy is, when we get there do we irrigate or mine? :D

Heike

Heike, opting to explore more fully is a good reason to go with the quicker warrior. Since the cow will benefit from either irrigating or mining - even in despotism - and the city site is well-balanced, you have to decide whether growing your population faster is the top priority.

I probably should have posted a long time ago, but I got into a groove and couldn't stop. At the time noone had really answered my question on when we should post. Here's my save. I don't know if I should go into detail so as not to spoil things for anyone else. The year is 780A.D.

Alexander780AD.SAV (http://homepage.mac.com/dixonbm/Alexander780AD.SAV)

I probably should have posted a long time ago, but I got into a groove and couldn't stop. At the time noone had really answered my question on when we should post. Here's my save. I don't know if I should go into detail so as not to spoil things for anyone else. The year is 780A.D.

Alexander780AD.SAV (http://homepage.mac.com/dixonbm/Alexander780AD.SAV)


Ok, how do I attach my saved game? Attaching a link from my webpage doesn't work.

Well, here are my first 10 turns. Looks like I do things a bit differently, I guess...

4000 BC- starting location is excellent. Sent Worker to improfve the resource sqaure to the E, then he'll go to the cow square. Set Athens to build Hoplite (defense! defense!), set research at 1.9.0 going for Warrior Code- get us some offensive units in case someone else is close. After that i'll go for Lit, I think.

3950BC- 3800BC- Zzzzzzz.

3750 BC- Worker starts improving the cow-square. What is the keystoke for "Build Corral" anyway?

3700-3650BC- Zzzzzz.

3600 BC- the cow-square is done- sent Worker to improve the resource square immediately to his NE to prep for a city site there. Looks like there is coast 1 square away, which should leave enough development room for another city.

3550BC- Athens built Hoplite, started a Settler. Sent Hoplite to goody hut to the E- dangit, Barbarians!

Game saved.

Oh- probably should have mentioned I put Athens on the starting square!

Duh.

Originally posted by heikeott
4000 BC - Looks like a great start. Fresh water and everything. Because of Snoopy terrain mod can see lux in SW, but not worth moving away from fresh water. Founded Athens right where we stand.Perfectly valid reasoning, even though some may argue otherwise. (I will postpone voicing my opinion, but will come back to it later.)
I would argue however against Snoopy, since it gives you an unfair advantage.
Agreement for rest of turn.
PS - what is "auto-explore" and how does one use it?? I don't know, but I wouldn't automate anything this early in the game.

Originally posted by dcaint
Well, here are my first 10 turns. Looks like I do things a bit differently, I guess...

4000 BC- starting location is excellent. Sent Worker to improfve the resource sqaure to the E, then he'll go to the cow square. Set Athens to build Hoplite (defense! defense!), set research at 1.9.0 going for Warrior Code- get us some offensive units in case someone else is close. After that i'll go for Lit, I think.
I prefer to build half price warriors. Barbs are sedentary and I never experienced a very early attack by another civ on my capital.
You will go for GLib, I suppose? Many do, I don't. Matter of personal preferences..

Snoopy terrain gives me an unfair advantage?? :eek: It is used in GOTM and other SG's, is it not? The situation of being able to spot a resource that one *might* not not be able to see under FoW with standard terrain is the only situation I can think of where it is an advantage, although Cracker in his Opening Moves strategy articles points out how you can see them if you look carefully enough. Besides, we are only playing to learn here, right?

Tao, you are quite the :whipped: !! :)

Heike, what is the Snoopy terrain mod?

Regardless of game ethics, it sounds different from Cracker's suggestions, which are all about looking carefully at what's there to be seen by the naked eye, with the game that comes oiut of the box.

Txurce:

IMHO, Snoopy's is apparently the most popular set of terrain modifications. It provides different graphics for forests, mountains, plains, etc. Primarily the modifications are more aesthetically pleasing and make it easier to differentiate some types of terrain from the others (plains from desert for example).
Come to think of it, it isn't actually Snoopy's that puts the little smiley faces over the luxury resources and the white circles over the strategic resources, it's that other one I downloaded.

I have the worst time trying to find coal and some of the other resources, I just can't see them on the map, so I downloaded this graphics pack that makes them easier to see. It doesn't change any rules or mod any units, it just changes the way things look on the map.

It never occurred to me that the smiley face would stick out of the FoW. Maybe it doesn't - I should go back to that opening map without the mod and see if I can detect the luxury. Anyway, it didn't affect my decision or any of my moves. I did the same as I would have done if I hadn't seen it there. :hmm:

Originally posted by Txurce
Heike, what is the Snoopy terrain mod?

Regardless of game ethics, it sounds different from Cracker's suggestions, which are all about looking carefully at what's there to be seen by the naked eye, with the game that comes oiut of the box.

Here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8969

I use it and recommend it; however, I'm not aware of any benefit in its use other than ascetics.

Dennis, exploration is important early in the game, so you probably would have been better off building at least one warrior to explore, prior to covering your butt with a hoplite.

Researching warrior code for defense is fine, as you can immediately build archers, but there are arguments to be made against it. You could have researched iron working, which would give you better offensive units, although only if you had iron handy. As a rule, it's better to research ahead - no one has iron working or writing - as opposed to parallel (warrior code), if only because you can probably trade for it as soon as you encounter another civ (with that exploring warrior!). In the case of Greece with its hoplite, however, you could argue that you don't need offensive units for defense (if that's why you're building them).

You built roads in all the right places, which is good, but you didn't mine anything, which will slow down your productivity. Had you mined that first grassland, for example, you could have had an extra warrior, and still build that settler just as your pop hits 3. Improving squares almost always means both building a road plus either mining or irrigating it.

The site you've chosen for your second city is okay, but not optimal. Building near the luxury resource may be a better bet, although you don't need its benefits so early at regent level. However, both of these easterly locations are relatively secure, because they're bounded by water and your capital is in the way from the other side. It generally makes sense to build toward the AI, which in this case means heading west fo now. The reason for this is that you thereby take territory that's likely to be contested, making your empire bigger at your neighbor's expense. Then you could "backfill" those eastern city sites later.

Finally, if you're not expansionist it's dangerous to pop huts without proper defenses, as you just discovered - that westernmost barbarian is about to sack Athens. The hut wasn't going anywhere, so you should have waited to open it.

In the beginning...

1. Regarding what units to build.
I always have a defender in each city as my top priority. Its a hard rule, too many things can go wrong. Warriors are fine to start out for the first 3 or 4 units. Remember your priorities: exploration, defending your cities, founding new cities. As another rule I always escort settlers and use them to defend the new city. That new city then builds either a defender or a worker depending on the terrain. Fortify the new defender and build a settler. When you get the settler send out the extra defender with the settler and repeat.

2. Regarding tile improvements.
Survey the future site of the city (2 tiles out). If most of the tiles are good for food e.i. grassland, plains, flood plains, I go by these guidelines: Irrigate plains to give you two food and continue grow. Mine grassland to give a shield because it already gives two food. If the city has a good amount of mountains and hills, then mine those and irrigate some grassland tiles to compensate and keep growth going. Do not build a city on a site with few or no tiles that can give you two or more food unless next to the sea. Oh, and don't automate workers, they will drown you.

3. Regarding wonders.
Pick out one of your cities early on, maybe your capitol, that has production potential and build a temple before you get the advance with the wonder you want. Then prebuild with an improvement that takes the longest and switch to the wonder when you discover it. Later build a defender in another city and move him to the wonder city because up to two defenders make citizens happy under despotism (three under monarchy).

Plus connect all your cities w/roads as first priority for your workers to connect resources.

Just a couple o tips. You can eat them with or without A1 for flavor, your choice.

So, when do we continue this saga to the next 10 turns? I can't wait till we get into a war. I would like to see some details on tactics and motivation described.

n8mac, that's generally good advice. I still send settlers out unescorted, because getting that city started sooner can make a big difference, but you make a good case for the efficiency of escorting. As a rule I wouldn't build early wonders in the capital: it affords the shortest prebuild time of any city, since it can't prebuild a palace, and most of the other ancient-era prebuilds are very short. You're better off making another site your wonder city.

As for the next ten turns, I would think that players could submit them whenever they're ready.

Which game do we play forward from? I thought we agreed we'd pick one game to go the next 10 turns from each time so that we don't get too far apart..?

Heike, that's a good point. Here's how I see it: only two players have posted ten-turn saves. We have no idea how many others intend to post, or when. I don't see any reason to wait, if you don't know what you're waiting for. Since only you and Dennis posted, I would suggest that you just keep playing your own games, if you'd like; otherwise, your start seems slightly more optimal. However, I'll have no problem commenting on two (or more) separate games. It would only be confusing if there were lots of players doing this, and there don't seem to be.

Dixonbm, I can't download your game.

Hi, Can I join. I have taken the game on another 10 moves as we seem to have good agreement that we have developed as best we can - see below for commentary and enclosure.

3550 BC M0 - Move warrier 1 S. left over move ?

3500 BC M1 - Move settler to cattle tile. Move (SE) Warrier 1 further S confirming no land to SE. Move warrier 2 W .

3450 BC M2 - Mine cattle tile (we can mine bonus grassland around lake for 2 food + 2 R) while irrigate for 3 food is capped under Despotism plus but there is no major resource tile so in this case go for mine. Move warrier 1 west (check for possible city square covering silk). Move warrier 2 NW.

3400 BC M3 - Move warrier 1 W. Move warrier 2 N. (could we be on end of continent ? need to check NE but don?t want to waste moves retracing steps - tough call) .

3350 BC M4 - Move warrier 1 W & warrier 2 N (definite ocean).

3300 BC M5 - Move warrier 1 SW & warrier 2 NE to check if land-bridge to N (near top of map so only a maybe).

3250 BC M6 - Move warrier 2 E - discover silk. Move warrier 1 S - discover two cows ! (SW location good for next city as towards likely AIs and cattle will give fast growth.

3200 BC M7 - Move warrier 2 E (confirmation we are on end eastern of continent - we don?t have to watch our backs). Move warrier 2 S reveals whale - makes for even better city location on coast.

3150 BC M8 - Produce Settler - set to Hoplite (7) while build up pop (7). Move settler S (heading for forest square on coast to give whale / cattle / silk). Build road on Cattle tile. Move warrier 1 W and warrier 2 SW.

3100 BC M9 - Move warrier 1 W (river with flood plains & warrier 2 SE. Move settler S.

3050 BC M10 - Move warrier 2 SE, move settler S, move warrier 1 W - river flows into ocean ?).

Suggest we switch settler to new location on western river to push border W with backfill later. This will lose some resources but secure a significantly westward border.

Overall : Warrier 1 discovers valuable resources and new city sites. Warrier 2 while confirming shape of continent & resource had to backtrack - wastefull. Should we have pushed West and checked out north later ? Probably yes but hindsight is easy.

Here are my turns, in which I tried to follow not the most obvious approach.

4000 bc
It looks like a good (not excellent) starting position; lake, 4 bonus grasslands, 2 forrest. Lots of opportunities to shuffle worked tiles. However: founding on the spot would waste a bonus shield. We would have 3 plains in our city radius. Why not move one step north? Let's try it. I just like to have as much future potential in my cities as possible: fewer, but better production powerhouses.
Next question: Move the worker to "have a look"? or Make a "decisive" move with the settler? I decided to move the settler, because that allows us for immediately mining the bonus grassland.
Settler moves and: :) we have cattle. We have to move the worker to the cattle asap, but do this NE, N to learn about our surroundings.
3950 Athens founded, start warrior, worker moved to cattle, research iron works at 20% due in 40 turns. It looks like silk in the north.
3900 start to irrigate cattle
3850
3800
3750
3700 Athens b warrior starts settler; worker starts road; warrior moves SE to explore
3600 switch Athens warior to enable settler popping; warrior pops 25 g from barbarian village; reset to settler
3650 Athens grows to pop 2; settler and pop 3 in 7 turns
3550 worker moves to bonus grassland
3500 warrior finds silk; coastal spot selected for next city

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/tao_mtdg-1_3500.jpg

3550 Warrior S (exploring)
3500 Athens expands. Worker finishes improving tile, moves N. War S, War W.
3450 I see my first mistake - I can't irrigate the cattle w/o backtracking. Oh well, try mine I guess. Warriors explore to S & W.
3400 - 3250 Warriors continue exploring West, southwest.
3200 Athens builds settler, and I see my second mistake - no optimal place to put 2nd city. Grassland coastal tiles are too close. :( Begin Hoplite.
3150 Settler heads south for coastal plains site.
3100 Warriors still exploring, worker still mining, settler heading south. Will place on forest square, making it plains. No overlap but no wasted tiles.
Game saved.

Well now I see some advantages to your founding Athens 1 tile North, but I don't know how you could have known with only the tiles we could see initially. The plains tiles that you avoided putting into Athens were not even visible on our initial view!

Macbaldrick, good turn. I agree that exploring westward makes more sense, as it's where the AI is likely to be. And I think you have it backward about the cattle under despotism: you could have gotten an extra food, but won't get a (third) extra shield.

Tao, you're bucking Cracker's well-researched starting strategy about almost always building where you stand? Now you have the burden of making it work!

As I posted earlier, I would have sent my warrior away from the coast and therefore on a southwesterly direction. This would have revealed that the silk site is safe for the time being, and I would thus send my settler due west. (I say this to illustrate other options, as building the second city by the silk is obviously a good idea.)

Txurce

I think I got it right but it is a judgement call.

Basic Grassland (2+0+0) + cattle gives 3(4)+1+0. Adding mine gives 3(4)+2+0 while Irr gives 4(5)+1+0. You can have either extra food or resources. The extra food is capped in all options during Despotism - yes? IMHO we need resources more than food to build units/improvements in the capital.
Ditto the other bonus grassland squares (basic 2+1+0) with mines gives 2+2+0 while Irr. gives 2(3)+1+0 again capped. There are enough bonus grassland tiles to irrigate later for better growth of 3+1+0 tile (mine non-bonus tiles for 2+1+0).

Yes more food means faster growth but it will take resources to build worker to mine grassland to get resources. I hav'nt analysed it at Crackers level to see the best outcome over tens of turns.

In all cases roads will add missing trade/gold.

Tao / Heike

City on SE coast capturing silk seems good idea (I thought so) but later exploration shows silk can be covered by SW city with Cattle & Whale ! City in SE will have to be right on coast with harbour - right place to set sail eastward later in the game.

So what happened? What are we waiting for? I tend to think that anyone who hasn't posted their 2nd ten turns yet, isn't going to and we could/should move forward?

Sorry- been incredibly busy- please go on without me for now. So sorry to have held everyone up!

Originally posted by Txurce
Tao, you're bucking Cracker's well-researched starting strategy about almost always building where you stand? Now you have the burden of making it work!

I'll do my very best. :)
3450 our borders grow; as expected: another silk in the north, but outside our city radius
3400
3350
3300 Athens b settler starts next
3250 nice city location with 3 cattle plus whale in the south; our next city will go here
3200
3150 Sparta founded; starts warrior
people love us and expand palace
3100
3050


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/tao_mtdg-1_3050.jpg

PS: Let's make our next stops at 2590bc, 2190 bc.

Tao, excellent turn. Now a question: how did you irrigate the cattle, since it was one tile off the lake? Does it have to do with building the capital in a different location (!), and using the city itself as an irrigated square from which to further irrigate? Normally this wouldn't work, but maybe it's different when bordering a water resource, and the city square is automatically irrigated. In this case, movig the settler may well have been the best move!

Originally posted by Txurce
Now a question: how did you irrigate the cattle, since it was one tile off the lake? Does it have to do with building the capital in a different location (!), and using the city itself as an irrigated square from which to further irrigate? Normally this wouldn't work, but maybe it's different when bordering a water resource, and the city square is automatically irrigated. In this case, movig the settler may well have been the best move! IIRC cities propagate water unless on a hill.

Contrary to MacBaldrick, I'm a firm believer in early pop growth. Food is much more important than shields (or gold) im your first city. At least until you have a settler factory elsewhere.

My point was not shields before food rather don't develop above 2 units (food/shields/gold) early on, while you are in despotism, because you lose the first additional unit. Go for 2/2/ x by irrigating / mining the tile as appropriate. However, since a 3/x/x tile has already incurred the penalty irrigation is OK - the city move strategy gets round the how.

Question ? Are we still following the original game or do we want two parallel games to compare. I have taken another 10 turns of the original but have yet to write the commentary. Maybe tonight after my jogging (yes some of us have a life away from a mac :D )

A further 10 turns on the original game.

3000 BC - Explore N up river & W. Move Settler W.

2950 BC - Ditto. Redirect Settler to upper river rather than flood plain / desert of S location.

2900 BC - Discover Barb camp just N or bend in river & wheat in N. Move worker to SW of Athens and mine / road tile.

2850 BC - Get new warrier from barb camp. Forests with Game appear to W.

2800 BC - Continue pushing warrier W uncovering another wheat tile.

2750 BC - More promising land to W (3 cattle tiles + lake).

2710 BC - Found Sparta (build warrior). Athens builds worker, move SW - build Barracks. Note river continues W (good site for another city if we wish to push as west as possible).

2670 BC - 1st worker completes mine, build road. 2nd worker builds road towards Sparta. Warrier discovers edge of Civ (red - Rome ?).

2630 BC - Contact with Romans. Roman Warrier heading E.

2590 BC - Trade 90 g for Warrior Code (decline Ceremonial Burial at 12 g + 3 gpt - originally 60 g). I don?t think we need temples yet but Wheel / Horeback Riding will give mobility for our westward expansion. Change research to Wheel in 4 turns - Rome will doubless research Iron Working for Legionary. Warrior reveals Rome.

General strategy has been to push as far west as possible till we find other Civs then backfill cities. The attached screenshot shows possible city sites. An alternative strategy would be to keep growth near the capital = easier and quicker to link with roads but other Civs may limit our later growth.

Macbaldrick, I agree with your reasoning for first expanding westward, versus south to the luxury area - especially on regent, where you won't need luxuries as quickly. Building a worker so early will also pay dividends. Now, what could have been done differently?

1. We've covered irrigating the cattle, the better to help you fill in all that territory.

2. Building Sparta that far west isn't going to help. The "border" is arbitrary, as Rome could easily build past it. Those cows you lust after are probably too far to fall within your domain by peaceful means. In the meantime, it'll take a long time to connect your cities. If Sparta's location were spectacular, you'd have a better argument... but it's not, so you would have been better off building contiguously west of Athens.

3. You're researching the wheel and building a barracks very early in the game, so your strategy seems to be military expansion. Maybe there's a target to the southwest; if there is, I suggest you go after them. The Romans are the toughest civ to expand against early, and you don't have an immortal or MW to match up against them. The wheel, followed by horseback riding, will give you a unit that I love, but that sucks against the legionnary.

4. Rome can't take you - nobody can - because of the hoplite. You can sit back securely and build an advanced society more easily than any other civ. I would have researched writing from the start, and certainly ahead of the wheel. This tech takes you to literature, cheap libraries, and likely control of the research game. It's a style suited to the Greeks.

5. Building a barracks is the right move to build an offensive force, and you could also use it to build vet hoplites. An alternative - not necessarily better than what you did, but more in keeping with Greece's strengths - would have been to build warrior scouts and send them everywhere. You need to meet other civs, and then trade tech with them, so the Romans can't squeeze you so hard for the techs they picked up from someone else. That's where writing dovetails, as you can trade communications once you've met various civs. A granary in Athens would also help, but the Romans would have needed to give you that. A temple is also a sound aggressive move against Rome, which is traditionally culture-poor.

Txurce,

Most of your points are quite valid. I followed the push west strategy to see what would turn up. We got further west than I imagined and yes, how we fill in the border undermines this approach.

On reflection literature is the better research strategy, not sure now why we started with Iron Working at such a slow rate. We can switch. I think I went for barracks such not enough pop for further settlers (downside of not pushing food?) rather than further non-vet units (no other improvements yet) as eventually Athens will be a resource city - but yet probably too soon.

Hadn't considered warrier scouts - however our existing warriors while slow are already out west.

So should we push a settler down to the S,SW to build a settler factory city on the coast next/near the bonus squares ? Will need a colony to access the spices which would fall betwen the two cities. These tactics are equally valid for the alt. game which has expanded east and now needs to push west. The plains to the west will not grow quickly without irrigation and water is a long way off - hence going the extra distance to the river. However, there is a lot of land to the west so Rome & other should take some time to encroach.

I'll try both games for another 10 turns.

MacBaldrick, I would have headed west as well, and the fact that the land immediately to the west is rather barren is... unfortunate. Factoring in the river is good longterm thinking - the sort that I didn't incorporate for a very long time, as I tend to expand in concentric rings, with exceptions for exceptions. However, you could have used the desert lake as a water source, rather than going all the way to the river. (You could have also changed your mind after hitting the desert.) Having gone to the river, there is an argument for building a city by the lake to keep your borders contiguous (and make roadbuilding easier).

Where to expand? Keep an eye on the dyes to the south, but there's no rush to incorporate those yet. I wouldn't waste a worker on a colony so early; if the proposed city to the east can't possibly cover it, you may want to wait for Athens' borders to expand (and they will, even faster if you build a temple or library). I would say that the cattle south of Sparta and the wheat north of it are tempting targets. The cattle can be irrigated, however, making it a more promising settler factory - not to mention that it's closer to Athens, and closer to the expected easier-than-Rome civ you'll pick on first!

Building a barracks early is a very subjective decision. I do it every time I expect to fight, or if I am waiting for the pop to grow enough to build a settler (and the shields work out right). There is a real value to using Athens as the supplier of vet hoplites to all of your cities - especially with a mined cattle!

I agree that your warriors are doing a decent job of scouting. Whether you squeeze out any more between other military builds is up to you. (I'm trying to remain a strictly backseat driver, which I realize is infinitely more annoying.)

Feel free to play either or both games - this is about training, after all. Since there's clearly no organized pattern on this thread, submit them whenever you like.

On reflection I reran the last move, trading Rome for Ceremonial burial. I have uploaded this game as Alexander 2059 BC.SAV. Will upload 2190 BC once I write up commentary.

Where is Tao's 3050 BC end-of-turn ?

2059 - 2190 BC Expansionist Option

2550 BC - Science set to discover Writing. Worker complete mining & joins 2nd worker to build road to Sparta. ?Invited? to leave Roman territory.

2510 BC - Sparta builds warrior (send S to explore)- set toTemple, Rome build Vaii.

2510 BC , 2470 BC , 2430 BC

2390 BC - Egypt discovered. Trade Pottery for 23 g. Switch Athens & Sparta to Granary. Warrior discovers grassland beyond western mountains.

2350 BC , 2310 BC

2270 BC - Western warrior / explore defeats Barb attack. Continues exploration.

2230 BC

2190 BC - Athens buils Granary - set to Settler. Workers have nearly completed road to Sparta. No Civs discovered in West.

Macbaldrick, with regard to the expansionist option: Good turn. Building that long road will eventually pay dividends. And you have now found a civ you can take pretty easily, should you wish to: Egypt. Your next decision is whether you want to go to war soon, or not. By soon, I mean no earlier than the construction of four of five cities.

In the meantime, where do you build those cities? Now that I can see your map, the cattle to the south have no irrigation, making them not quite as tempting as the wheat just north of Sparta (which blocks Rome). Then there's the luxury north of Athens, in fertile territory fairly close to water. Strategically, the optimal strategy is probably to block Rome and build toward Egypt (your likely war victim). However, have enough hoplites ready to defend your borders, as you don't want Roman settlers traipsing through and building in your interior. (Exploration is going well enough to tell you that Rome is going to be a ***** - they have a lot of cattle on grasslands, and plenty of irrigation.)

You built one granary (why isn't it registering on the city screen?), and are building another. If this is your basic strategy, fine. If you are doing it to build a dedicated settler factory, you only need one... and should consider irrigating that mined cattle.

MacBaldrick, you need an awful long time to build and connect Sparta. I decided to settle closer and to prepare for an attack on Egypt.
I also firmly agree with Txurce: cattle must be irrigated. In despotism, you can get a number of 2 shield tiles, but having lots of food in your capital is great for both settler and wonder building as you will see once I post more of my game (I already played into industrial times).
PS: May I suggest you use a graphics editor to cut maps you post down in size.

Spolier warning: since I know iron working and the wheel, both horses and iron are on my map.

3000
2950 we detect borders in the SW
2900 Sparta b warrior s next; contact to Egypt; trade alphabet for their ceremonial burial+10g
2850 Athens b settler s barracks
2800
2710
2670 Sparta grows, b warrior, s worker
2630 meet American scout; trade 1gpt+3g to Egypt for pottery; switch Athens to granary
2590 build Thermopylae at 2 cows+whale coastal site s warrior
2550 Sparta b worker s warrior
2510
2470 America gives masonry, warrior code, 6g for 5 gpt
2430 Samartians tell us mystery; see red borders in the West
2390 Thermopyla b warrior s temple; lux to 10%
2350 Sparta b warrior s next; send to Athens; Patzinals tell us wheel; no horses in our borders
trade masonry to Rome for 10g; trade wheel to America for 72g + 1gpt
2310 warrior in Athens, lux to 0%;
2270 rearrange tiles between Athens and Sparta: Sparta still b warrior in 2, Athens b granary in 2 (instead 3), grows in 3 :goodjob:
2230 research to 10% iron working still in 3 turns
2190 Athens b granary s settler; Sparta b warrior s temple; warrior to Athens
Rome beats us to iron working; trade it for the wheel; research writing at 90% (24 turns, -5 gpt)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/tao_mtdg-1_2190bc.jpg
Saved file at 2190 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/tao_mtdg-1-Alexander2190bc.sav.zip)

Suggest next turn till 1525 bc.

Hi All,

Tearing myself away from the Editor (map of new Zealand in the works) I have taken Tao's game another step forward with screenshot.

2190 - 1525 BC Compact Growth Strategy

2150, 2110 BC,
2070 BC Athens b Settler, s Warrior, send Settler W with Warror escort.
1990 BC Destroy Barb village in W(S), Warrior now vet.
1950 BC Athens b Warrier, s Warrior, send Warrior to Sparta
1910 BC mm Athens / Sparta
1870 BC Found Corinth, s Worker, Barb village in W gives 25g
1830 BC Worker move to mine S of Athens
1790 BC Worker continues road S
1725, 1700 BC
1675 BC Thermopylae b Temple, s Barracks
1650 BC Sparta b Temple, s Settler, manage Athens with Tax Collector (Entertainer not required yet)
1625 BC
1600 BC, complete road to Thermopylae, b road to silk
1575 BC Corinth b Worker, s Granary,
1550 BC Worker set to b road SW of Sparta. Discover Writing, establish Embassies with Rome & Egypt. Both have Horseback Riding - not worth trading as no extra gold ?
1525 BC Trade Rome Writing for Horseback Riding, Trade America HR for 40g

Workers will shortly access Silk. Settlers ready soon to occupy sites in SW (near Silk) and W (near lake?). Research targeted on Literature for Libraries.

Game uploaded as Alex, 1525 BC MacBaldrick.sav.zip

I will also post a screenshot of my outcome on the standard game at same date. Game is Alex, 1525 BC std.sav.zip

Screenshot of similar position