View Full Version : Feedback: Religions


Xyth
Jul 16, 2011, 04:19 AM
:religion: Religions
Feedback and Development

This is the official thread for the discussion and development of the Religions.

Howard Mahler
Jul 22, 2011, 04:53 PM
I tried the reduced religion option.
Worked fine.
Thanks!

Huge map, 11 civs, 7 religions.
Last one was founded in 810 BC.

While I do not a problem with this, it is a little earlier than ideal for the last religion to be founded. If you wanted to adjust this, perhaps the reduced religion option could also increase somewhat the cost of a cemetery. On balance, I would just leave it alone.

Makes some difference in how the game plays out.
While I think I prefer this reduced religion option, it is good that everyone has the option to choose, or just change things once in while for the sake of variety.

This is exactly the type of player option that increases the fun of players.
It is a shame there is not a way to easily include some others.
(I do not have a pressing suggestion.)

Xyth
Jul 22, 2011, 10:13 PM
Huge map, 11 civs, 7 religions.
Last one was founded in 810 BC.

While I do not a problem with this, it is a little earlier than ideal for the last religion to be founded. If you wanted to adjust this, perhaps the reduced religion option could also increase somewhat the cost of a cemetery. On balance, I would just leave it alone.

It will vary a fair bit depending on who your opponents are each game too. Overall I think it's working well.

Makes some difference in how the game plays out.
While I think I prefer this reduced religion option, it is good that everyone has the option to choose, or just change things once in while for the sake of variety.

This is exactly the type of player option that increases the fun of players.
It is a shame there is not a way to easily include some others.
(I do not have a pressing suggestion.)

While there don't seem to be any other obvious options to replace it is still possible to add additional functionality to the existing ones. Something to keep in mind.

Azoth
Jul 23, 2011, 01:55 AM
Something is seriously wrong with Great Prophet generation in 0.9.4:

I started a new game as Bismarck on an Inland Sea map. I became very suspicious when four Great Prophets were born in Washington between 525BC and 275BC. (It is literally impossible to generate four Great People within ten turns from a single city in the Ancient Age.) Then, it happened to me. In 200BC, the same turn I discovered my first Classical Age technology, Employment, a Great Prophet (my second in the game) was born in Aachen. Not only was the GPP bar in Aachen nowhere near full, Aachen also had no Great Prophet points in its GPP pool! (After Aachen gave birth to its first Great Prophet, I had taken advantage of the Progressive trait to run a Scientist out of the Cemetery.) So now I have illegitimately founded one religion - and America may have similarly founded up to four.

I have attached a save file from that turn for your consideration.

Xyth
Jul 23, 2011, 02:17 AM
Ack, I know what could cause that. I'll have a fix soon.

EDIT: Fix now available

krazykaz1983
Jul 23, 2011, 08:21 AM
Can't seem to found religions, had two great profits so far with no prompt to create a religion...Have Zoroaster in this game save...Any ideas?

Xyth
Jul 23, 2011, 09:14 PM
Can't seem to found religions, had two great profits so far with no prompt to create a religion...Have Zoroaster in this game save...Any ideas?

I'm unable to load your saved game at the moment but it's likely related to the bug discussed above. How many religions have been founded so far by all civs and are you using the Fewer Religions option?

Make sure you apply the most recent patch found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=432399). I added the discussed fix to it yesterday.

krazykaz1983
Jul 23, 2011, 11:05 PM
No fewer religions, had 18 Civs, only 4 had been founded, now getting a new error.

Cannot load version 302, expecting version 301 or lower...

many many turns lost, not a terrible thing if it all works tho...

EDIT: Just tested a few Civs and still cannot create new religions once a Great Profit shows up... Sad Panda about losing that save game....

Xyth
Jul 23, 2011, 11:19 PM
No fewer religions, had 18 Civs, only 4 had been founded, now getting a new error.

Cannot load version 302, expecting version 301 or lower...

many many turns lost, not a terrible thing if it all works tho...

EDIT: Just tested a few Civs and still cannot create new religions once a Great Profit shows up... Sad Panda about losing that save game....

Ah sorry, I should have warned you that you'd lose your saved game. I can send you the original unpatched files if you want to continue it.

Are you saying that Great Prophets aren't founding religions for you even in new games? Or just with that particular game? What settings are you using (advanced start, map/mapscript, speed, difficulty, etc)?

krazykaz1983
Jul 23, 2011, 11:29 PM
Retested after reloading the patches, all seems to be working well now, now worries about losing the save game I would probably done quite a few different things if I could have founded my own religion!

Xyth
Jul 24, 2011, 12:10 AM
Retested after reloading the patches, all seems to be working well now, now worries about losing the save game I would probably done quite a few different things if I could have founded my own religion!

Pleased to hear the problem is fixed. Hopefully you're next game is as (or more) enjoyable as the first!

Thanks for the report and please let me know if have any other issues or questions :)

Xyth
May 19, 2013, 09:13 PM
BUMP!


I'm experimenting with a change to prophet-founded religions at the moment, as part of redesigning the Paganism civic. Quick summary:


Great Prophets have a chance (50%) to found a religion
Chance is decreased by 20% if player already has a state religion
Chance is decreased by 30% if the prophet's city is a holy city
Chance is decreased by 10% for each religion already present in the city
Chance is increased by 50% if player has the Paganism civic
Prophets that found religions are consumed
Cemetery reverts to 1 free priest specialist, rather than 1 free specialist and priest slot


Numbers are definitely not finalized, would like feedback. Goals of these changes:


Players that don't prioritise founding religions early will find it harder to do so once foreign religions start spreading into their territory
Players that do prioritize founding religions early can still found multiple religions but can no longer rely on the same city to do it for them
Most religions should still be founded relatively early but 'every civ has its own religion' shouldn't be quite as common.
More opportunity for religious blocs to develop, but not to the extremes seen in the standard BTS system
Cities that are holy for multiple religions should be less common*
Players wishing to avoid founding too many religions can switch away from Paganism and significantly lower the chance


* This occurs because when the AI founds a religion its always in the city where the prophet was born, while for the player it seems to (usually) be in whatever city was founded last. I want player religions to work like AI religions but I've been unable so far to change it.

I also want to look into religious decay and revamping inquisitions, but that's in the future.

wanderm
May 20, 2013, 12:14 AM
All for it. While I take the exact adjustments on faith (no pun intended) I am dead against having a unique religion for each Civ. As I tend to play with 18+ civs, this can be a real issue.

So with this and the fewer religions setting maxing out at 12, my play (as per my preference) is close to BTS. Others of course have the option of the full 18, but spread in that manner.

platyping
May 20, 2013, 12:39 AM
There is one python function to set location of holy city, which u can use to make it such that holy city is where prophet was

myclan
May 20, 2013, 02:09 AM
if choosing fewer religions, how many religions there will be?

Xyth
May 20, 2013, 03:15 AM
if choosing fewer religions, how many religions there will be?

2/3 as many as there are players in a game. This (and the regular setting of 1:1) wouldn't change with this proposal.

Xyth
May 20, 2013, 04:26 AM
There is one python function to set location of holy city, which u can use to make it such that holy city is where prophet was

This does work (in onReligionFounded), but there's still a message that the religion was founded in the incorrect city and that city still gets the religion spread to it (causing another unavoidable message). I can't see anywhere to suppress these, I can only assume they're triggered somewhere in the DLL.

Unless I'm missing something, I suspect the only full solution is to write a custom choose religion popup rather than calling BTS' standard one, as that doesn't seem to return anything to the event it was called from (onGreatPersonBorn).

platyping
May 20, 2013, 04:43 AM
Check how it is done in Worldbuilder.
There is a code to assign the holy city directly to a specific city, and in doing so, found the religion if not founded.
You can also choose whether the message is to be displayed or not

Xyth
May 20, 2013, 05:17 AM
Check how it is done in Worldbuilder.
There is a code to assign the holy city directly to a specific city, and in doing so, found the religion if not founded.
You can also choose whether the message is to be displayed or not

The problem is the section that calls the choose religion popup:


# Display the popup for the player to pick a religion
popupInfo = CyPopupInfo()
popupInfo.setButtonPopupType(ButtonPopupTypes.BUTT ONPOPUP_FOUND_RELIGION)
popupInfo.setData1(iSlot)
popupInfo.addPopup(iPlayer)

No information is returned from that popup so I can't use it in conjunction with setHolyCity as I have no idea what religion the player chose. I can use setHolyCity in onReligionFounded (with a global variable storing the prophet's city) but the religion still gets spread to the DLL chosen city with accompanying messages - after the holy city was successfully moved by setHolyCity.

myclan
May 20, 2013, 06:00 AM
I think Great prophets that found a religion should not be consumed, or players may find it rather annoying that they can't decide a great prophet founding a religion or not. Especially when other religious civic is not available

platyping
May 20, 2013, 08:22 AM
Just add it as a "activatable button" like what I did with my Enhanced GP mod?
Then you can even shift the Prophet to the city you like before founding the religion.

Azoth
Aug 07, 2013, 03:38 PM
The shrines of Druidism, Shamanism, and Vodun have generic names and do not appear to refer to any particular structure or holy site. It's a small thing, but it's been bugging me for a while. I suggest the following name changes:

Druidism: Pool of Balance -> Glastonbury Tor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glastonbury_Tor)
Shamanism: Stone of Visions -> Mathó Thípila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devils_Tower_National_Monument) (Devil's Tower)
Vodun: Tomb of the Ansyen Bon -> Ilé-Ifè (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ile_Ife)

Xyth
Aug 08, 2013, 04:40 PM
I'm fine with renaming those. I don't think Glastonbury Tor is the right choice for Druidism though; while it probably was a druidic site, its relevance was drastically embellished in medieval times by its dubious identification as the mythical Avalon of Celtic and Arthurian legend. Ynys Môn (Anglesey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey)) (or a site on it if we can find a significant one) is probably the best choice. Most accounts identify the island as where the druid hierarchy was based and new druids were trained.

Azoth
Aug 09, 2013, 09:55 PM
I'm fine with renaming those. I don't think Glastonbury Tor is the right choice for Druidism though; while it probably was a druidic site, its relevance was drastically embellished in medieval times by its dubious identification as the mythical Avalon of Celtic and Arthurian legend. Ynys Môn (Anglesey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey)) (or a site on it if we can find a significant one) is probably the best choice. Most accounts identify the island as where the druid hierarchy was based and new druids were trained.

Yep. Good call on Ynys Môn.

Xyth
Sep 09, 2013, 05:14 AM
Quick question while I'm working on buildings: do shrines need improving?

Azoth
Sep 09, 2013, 08:54 AM
Quick question while I'm working on buildings: do shrines need improving?

Some small added bonuses wouldn't hurt, especially now that there are five new Great buildings clamouring for attention. I suggest +4 espionage and +2 happiness with state religion.

On a related note, will Great Prophets still found religions automatically upon birth, or will it take an action that consumes them? I'd prefer the latter, though I understand that it might be difficult to teach the AI to use such an ability. If we stick to the former, then we might want to raise the requirements for a Shrine, to bring them closer in line with the other Great buildings. We could add a tech requirement or swap "requires Temples" with "requires Great Temple in target city." Again, I don't know how the AI would deal with such a change, or the other Great buildings in general.

Nightstar
Sep 09, 2013, 10:07 PM
I'd really like to see each religion have unique additional effects for their temples/monasteries/shrines, especially if they could could be restricted to the current state religion.

Skidizzle
Sep 10, 2013, 12:08 AM
I'd really like to see each religion have unique additional effects for their temples/monasteries/shrines, especially if they could could be restricted to the current state religion.

If each separate state religion did have it's own "unique ability/flavor bonus" would the AI be able to handle it?

Then you get into whether or not you choose the state religion bonuses a la Civ V or you have them tied to the religion, which could be sticky.

Jarlaxe Baenre
Sep 10, 2013, 12:10 AM
If each separate state religion did have it's own "unique ability/flavor bonus" would the AI be able to handle it?

Then you get into whether or not you choose the state religion bonuses a la Civ V or you have them tied to the religion, which could be sticky.

Furthermore, it'd be difficult to give them all unique and accurate bonuses.

Azoth
Sep 10, 2013, 09:56 AM
Furthermore, it'd be difficult to give them all unique and accurate bonuses.

This. I mean, you could do it, especially if you limited the bonuses to the Great Temples, or built the bonus in stages: +5% GPP for the Temple, +5% for the the Monastery, +15% GPP for the Great Temple. But even then, coming up with 18 unique, accurate, and balanced bonuses would be hard.

One thing we should do is renamed the Asatru Great Temple. The "Hall of Fame" has a completely different meaning in modern times. And there's a much better Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathen_hofs) term: Hof.

Also, are there any plans to add more religions to HR? Tengriism, an Andean religion (possible name: Viracochan?), and Sikhism would be good choices.

ales_
Sep 10, 2013, 02:47 PM
Sikhism won't, because there are no leaders who prefer it.

Azoth
Sep 10, 2013, 06:16 PM
Sikhism won't, because there are no leaders who prefer it.

Well, that might change depending on which new leader we add to India. Even then, there's something to be said for numbers. Sikhism is the fifth largest organized religion, with twice as many followers as Judaism. There's a reason it's included in Civ5, even though it's not the favourite religion of any leader.

Xyth
Sep 10, 2013, 06:41 PM
Some small added bonuses wouldn't hurt, especially now that there are five new Great buildings clamouring for attention. I suggest +4 espionage and +2 happiness with state religion.

What about the wealth per city mechanic? Does that need to be stronger or expanded to another commerce perhaps?

On a related note, will Great Prophets still found religions automatically upon birth, or will it take an action that consumes them? I'd prefer the latter, though I understand that it might be difficult to teach the AI to use such an ability.

I don't know yet. The latter is possible I'm just not sure I want to tackle it for 1.21 or not. Depends how smoothly everything else goes.

I'd really like to see each religion have unique additional effects for their temples/monasteries/shrines, especially if they could could be restricted to the current state religion.

If each separate state religion did have it's own "unique ability/flavor bonus" would the AI be able to handle it?

Then you get into whether or not you choose the state religion bonuses a la Civ V or you have them tied to the religion, which could be sticky.

Furthermore, it'd be difficult to give them all unique and accurate bonuses.

This. I mean, you could do it, especially if you limited the bonuses to the Great Temples, or built the bonus in stages: +5% GPP for the Temple, +5% for the the Monastery, +15% GPP for the Great Temple. But even then, coming up with 18 unique, accurate, and balanced bonuses would be hard.

It's on the wishlist but it's not something I want to attempt for 1.21.

One thing we should do is renamed the Asatru Great Temple. The "Hall of Fame" has a completely different meaning in modern times. And there's a much better Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathen_hofs) term: Hof.

Perfect, done.

Also, are there any plans to add more religions to HR? Tengriism, an Andean religion (possible name: Viracochan?), and Sikhism would be good choices.

Not currently. There's a 'soft cap' of 18, when it comes to religions - beyond that point, adding new ones is possible but much more troublesome. Religions also require a fair bit of art (4 buildings, a unit, and a movie), and I've not seen much that I could assemble that I haven't already used elsewhere. Maybe some day though. All three of those suggestions have merit.

Azoth
Sep 10, 2013, 08:43 PM
What about the wealth per city mechanic? Does that need to be stronger or expanded to another commerce perhaps?

Well, I've suggested +1 science per city as a bonus for a new National Wonder in the Buildings thread. Espionage or culture per city would be too unbalancing. I don't think the value needs to be higher, either: shrines compare very favourably to a settled Great Prophet.

If anything, we need to revisit the commerce per city mechanic for corporate headquarters, specifically the culture corporations. It leads to absurdities like a jewelry company producing more raw culture in its home city than all the palaces, temples, towers, and theatres built over the ages. But we can save that for 1.22.

The_Athenian
Oct 03, 2013, 02:42 PM
Hi Xyth,
I know I am coming a little late to this party. I hope that after 1.21 you tackle the religious buildings.

Selecting a religion should be more than just an aesthetic/Role playing choice.



I have read many debates between windows modders, about whether it was worth it to adjust the effects of religious buildings to suit the religions better. The overall feeling was that any major affects would alter the balance of the game, because the AI would have issues.

So maybe just a small step would be cool. Where the unique religious wonders for each religion had a slightly different benefit. But keep the other religious buildings as is. The benefits would not need to be so significant that they shift the balance of power in the game, but just small enough so that there is some reason to select one religion over the other.

As far as AI concerns, I've noticed the AI tends to pick religions associated with that particular civ. So the AI would pick as is it does now, and build religious buildings as it does now.




Unique Wonders. (Most benefits should be added to the current standard benefits of building wonder)

for the Druids: They could function similar to the old national park, except instead of commerce they receive +1 health/or +1 culture for every forrest in the city where it is built.

Christianity: Probably something war like, so that when it is founded, all others will fear the dreaded crusaders. You know -15% war weariness. A reflection on Christianity being used to justify wars throughout history.

Islam: Islam was a religion of peace and science for most of it's history. +1 science from monuments. (effect expires when monuments go obsolete) So that by the modern age this scientific advantage has disappeared.

Taoism: +1 experience to Melee units & +1 health per rice, fish.
A religion very connected to nature, but some of the greatest warriors were taoists, many of Sun Tzu's writings reflect taoist thought, and taoism combined with Buddhism led to some of the most badass shaolin warrior monks.

Buddhism: Peaceful, and vegetarian, so +1 happiness in all cities, +2 health per rice, fruit in city where it's built. However, +10% war weariness.

Judaism: +2 culture per bank & university. +1 experience for fighter jet. (duh, Jewish stereotype + 1967)

Hinduism: Hinduism was much stricter than Buddhism, but had some of the benefits of vegetarianism, though many of these societies today face serious health & overcrowding issues.

+1 health per monument/temple, expires when building becomes obsolete. And +50% birthrate in city where it is built.
This will mean that early in history the holy city will grow and be healthy, but by the modern age it may face issues with overcrowding.

Shinto: +1 experience points all units built in this city.
Throughout it's history whether it was swordsmen, archers, horsemen, or kamikaze pilots there has always been a strong warrior tradition.

ok my intern just walked in and looks like she looks lost, gotta run... but tell me what you think.

The_Athenian
Oct 04, 2013, 11:02 AM
On further thought,

I realize the issue with providing a bonus through the Unique Religious Wonder system, is that one or two civs could end up with multiple religious wonders, and thus have numerous bonuses.

Perhaps those bonuses could be applied simply based on which religion is your state religion.

Though I still think the unique wonders should work just like any other wonder, with their own unique effects, but perhaps not as generous as the ones I initially suggested.

Xyth
Oct 04, 2013, 06:30 PM
I think adding flavoured bonuses to each religion's shrine has potential. Adds incentive to found more than one religion. Will certainly consider it for 1.22.

The_Athenian
Oct 09, 2013, 10:57 AM
Hi Xyth,

Thanks for being so receptive to my idea!

I was thinking about it, and Temples don't expire, but Monasteries expire with electricity. What about attaching unique bonuses to the Monasteries, that will expire in the modern age?

Because religions evolve over time. So certain traits could be more prominent in the Middle ages.

Middle Ages

For example: Islam Could have a +2 science from Monasteries.

Civs with this Islamic building would have an edge in the Middle Ages, but this scientific advantage would disappear as the world moves forward.

Christianity: Monasteries could give a war time bonus, like Religious Fervor which gives +25% Great General Emergence, or reduction in unit upkeep. That way in the middle ages these guys are more warlike, and mellow out with the discovery of electricity. [Even better yet, would it be possible for Christian Monasteries to allow the training of 0 upkeep Fanatics? (like the ones in Civ 2) Weak, yet cheap.]



Carrot/Stick: Your comment about incentive to have multiple religions made me start thinking. With Unique bonuses for religious buildings there would be a huge advantage in having as many religions as possible.

No Civ for example would ever engage in a religious inquisition, or try to keep other religion's "priest" units out of their borders. So there should be a carrot & stick design to this, so that players must make strategic choices about which Religions to support.

Perhaps having too many religions or varying religious buildings in a city could lead unrest.

Or historical tension, for example having Islamic & Christian buildings in a city could lead to unrest.

The other option, probably the simplest, is that any unique monastery bonuses should only go into effect if that is your state religion. That almost completely diffuses incentive for founding multiple religions. But this could be balanced out with Unique Religious Wonders which would make you want to found as many as you could, or capture their home cities.




Modern Age
In the modern age religions would just provide culture and stability (happiness).

We still see religious tension today, but it is mostly apparent in political and diplomatic situations. Maybe in the modern age having certain state religions will cause some of your citizens to demand certain civics.

Once again using Islam as an example: Instead of demanding emancipation/or religious freedom like in BTS, having State Islam would cause citizens to demand you establish a Theocracy.


Buddhists, Druids... would demand more leftists Civics (like redistribution).

While, Christianity, Shinto, Hindu more conservative (Christianity: Centralization) (Shinto might demand an authoritarian state) (Hindu:Fundamentalism)

Well you get the idea. This also means that as you reach the end game there is more strategy behind selecting your civics, usually you tend to go for the one that is the most advanced, gives you an advantage, but with this system you may want to think twice about Democracy if you have a certain state religion...