Feedback: Tech Tree [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Azoth

Jul 24, 2011, 05:28 AM

As my contribution to the tech tree, I'd like to suggest new quotes for a couple of technologies. Don't get me wrong, I think most of the quotes are on point; but some are little more than definitions, others have grown stale over time, and a few do not match the redesigned technologies in HR. It's not a priority by any means; but the right quote adds so much atmosphere. I'll start in the Ancient Era:

Ritual
Current: Mystery creates wonder and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. -Neil Armstrong
Suggested: Lead the people by means of law and regulate them through punishment, and they will be evasive and have no sense of shame. Lead them by means of virtue and regulate them through ritual, and they will have a sense of shame and moreover have standards. -Confucius

Neil Armstrong might be appropriate for Mysticism; but Ritual is something entirely different. In this case, I defer to Confucius, whose philosophy placed great value on ritual li.
Edit: If that passage is too long, you could start with the second sentence: Lead the people by means of virtue...

Copper Working
Current: He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in wet copper armor shouting "All the gods are bastards." -Terry Pratchett
Suggested: Would you say a man is at leisure who arranges with finical care his Corinthian bronzes that the mania of a few makes costly, and spends the greater part of his day upon rusty bits of copper? -Seneca

Pratchett is hilarious; Seneca is relevant. A shorter quote, attributed to Seneca though I could not find the source, runs as follows: Wealth falls on some men as a copper down the drain.

Property
Current: There is sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed. -Mohandas Gandhi
Suggested: The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him; that man was the true founder civil society. -Jean Jacques Rousseau

As much as I admire Gandhi, I think Rousseau comes closer to the mark. (He goes on to say: From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.)

Sailing
Current: You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails. -Anonymous
Suggested: And now I know we must lift the sail/ And catch the winds of destiny/ Wherever they drive the boat.
To put meaning in one's life may end in madness./ But life without meaning is the torture/ Of restlessness and vague desire-
It is a ship longing for the sea and yet afraid.
- Edgar Lee Masters

A poem beats an anonymous quote any day.
Edit: On second thought, maybe we should just keep the first couple lines: And now I know we must lift the sail and catch the winds of destiny wherever they drive the boat.

Xyth

Jul 24, 2011, 05:47 PM

Azoth

Jul 24, 2011, 07:08 PM

I'm glad you liked them. Here are some more for the Classical Era:

Seafaring (formerly Sailing)
Suggested: There is no life in thee now, except that rocking life imparted by a gently rolling ship; by her, borrowed from the sea; by the sea, from the inscrutable tides of God. -Herman Melville

Divination
Current: Divine life is in touch with the whole universe on the analogy of the soul's contact with the body. -Muhammad Iqbal
Suggested: And said the Creator, the Maker, and the Forefathers, when they spoke to the soothsayers, who are the diviners: "You must work together and find the means so that man, whom we shall make, man, whom we are going to make, will nourish and sustain us, invoke and remember us." -Popol Vuh

Divinity is not the same thing as divination. In fact, all three Abrahamic religions forbid divination, so an Islamic poet is a poor choice indeed. Divination was common practice in the ancient Mediterranean and Mesoamerica, hence the quote from the Popul Vuh, the Mayan creation myth.

Priesthood
Current: The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. -The Bible, Numbers
Suggested: From the solemn gloom of the temple, children run out to sit in the dust. God watches them play and forgets the priest. -Rabindranath Tagore

The current quote is a prayer and a blessing. It says nothing about priesthood. (Not to mention, we have plenty of quotes from the Bible already: see Pottery, Calendar, and Metal Casting.)
Now, Tagore has a certain charm. For something more reverent, I might suggest: The priest lives solely in the realm of the invisible; for him, all that is visible has only the truth of an allegory. -Karl von Schlegel

Architecture
Current: Architecture begins where engineering ends. -Walter Gropius
Suggested: Architecture is the learned game, correct and magnificent, of forms assembled in the light. -Le Corbusier

Far too many quotes define architecture in terms of other fields: engineering, music, even politics. I prefer to define architecture on its own terms.

Artisanry
Current: The artist is he who detects and applies the law from observation of the works of genius, whether of man or nature. The artisan is he who merely applies the rules which others have detected. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: The life so short, the craft so long in the learning. -Geoffrey Chaucer

Thoreau seems to think that artisans merely "apply the rules." Chaucer gives craftsmen their due respect.

Politics
Current: Man is by nature a political animal. -Aristotle
Suggested: Politics is the art of the possible. -Otto von Bismarck

Aristotle is not bad, though his chief concern is actually human flourishing. (In saying that man is a political animal, Aristotle argues that human fulfillment requires not only the cultivation of inner virtue, but also engagement in society and politics.) For a technology that unlocks Spies and Democracy, I prefer Bismarck.

Howard Mahler

Jul 25, 2011, 01:02 PM

Copied from the main thread, here is my proposed revision to the early tech tree.
See the attached pdf file. (Same as prior one.)
The last page has some additional ideas.

I have added 14 new techs, so that 5 columns become 7.
This spreads the benefits out and also adds some room for new buildings and wonders. I have suggested some.

In order to not slow down tech progress, one would also need to cut the cost of techs in the first column significantly.

For example, one could reduce the first column cost from 50 to 20, and have the second column be 40. Then the other columns should increase. The costs for a tech in the new 7th column such as Currency should be the same as currently (where it is in the 5th column.)

One could consider giving each civ 3 rather than 2 starting techs.

Please note that I have maintained the basic geometry of the current tree, columns of 7 techs each.
There are plenty of cross connections.
As with the current tree, not all of the prerequisites are logical necessities.

I do not seem to be able to get the attachment to attach.
So here is the information with worse formatting.

Mining CopperW Masonry BronzeW MilitaryStrategy IronW MetalCasting

Pottery TheWheel Trade Riding Construction Fortification Engineering

Pastoralism Tanning Textiles Property RecordKeeping Employment Aesthetics

Ritual CeremonialBurial Priesthood HereditaryRule Representation Writing Currency

Agriculture Baking Stargazing Mathematics Calendar Philosophy Law

Hunting Archery Fermentation OralTradition Mythology Divination Anatomy

Fishing Sailing MapMaking ShipBuilding Astronomy Navigation OrganizedReligion

Copper Working requires Mining but not Pottery.
The Wheel requires Pottery as well as Pastoralism.
Tanning requires Pastoralism and Hunting. Allows Tannery, rather than Textiles.
Ceremonial Burial requires Ritual and Pottery. Allows Cemetery rather than Ritual.
Baking requires Agriculture. Allows Bakery.
Bakery gives health benefits that are currently with Granary. +1 Food. Granary made cheaper.
Archery requires Hunting: Allows Archer rather than Hunting. Similar change to Longbow, etc.
Masonry requires Copper Working.
Trade requires the Wheel and Sailing. Allows Open Borders rather than Property. Trading Post.
Trading Post: 1 Free Merchant, +1 happiness with Mercantilism
Textiles requires Tanning and Agriculture. Still allows Weaver. Also allows Ropewalk.
Ropewalk in city is required to build: Caravel, Galleas, Galleon, Frigate, Privateer, Ship of the Line.
Priesthood requires Ceremonial Burial and either Agriculture or Hunting.
Priesthood can construct Temple, rather than Divination.
Stargazing requires Ceremonial Burial and Sailing. Allows Stonehenge rather than Ritual.
Stargazing is required for Pyramids in addition to Masonry.
Fermentation requires Baking and Pottery. Allows the Tavern rather than Employment.
Fermentation allows the Winery rather than Calendar.
Map Making requires Sailing and Tanning. Allows map trading rather than Astronomy.
Bronze Working requires Masonry.
Riding requires Trade and Textiles. Allows Horseman rather than Iron Working.
Property requires Trade and Masonry. Allows Inn.
Inn gives +2 coins and +25% trade route yield. Reduce Harbor to +25% trade route yield.
Mining Copper W. Masonry Bronze W. Military S. Iron W. Metal Casting
Pottery Wheel Trade Riding Construction Fortification Engineering
Pastoralism Tanning Textiles Property Record K. Employ. Aesthetics
Ritual Cer. Burial Priesthood Heredit. R. Represent. Writing Currency
Agriculture Baking Stargazing Mathematics Calendar Philosophy Law
Hunting Archery Ferment. Oral Trad. Mythology Divination Anatomy
Fishing Sailing Map Mak. Ship Build. Astronomy Navigation Organized Rel.
Hereditary Rule requires Priesthood and the Wheel. Allows Monarchy.
Mathematics requires Stargazing and Trade.
Oral Tradition requires Stargazing and Fermentation.
Ship Building requires Map Making.
Military Strategy requires Bronze Working and Riding.
Military Strategy allows Horse Archer (needs Riding and Archery),
Catapult (needs Mathematics), and War Elephant.
Construction requires Masonry and Mathematics.
Record Keeping requires Property and Textiles.
Representation requires Hereditary Rule. Allows Democracy.
Calendar requires Mathematics and Oral Tradition.
Mythology requires Oral Tradition. Allows Heroic Epic and Temple of Artemis (needs Construction)
Mythology needed for Statue of Zeus in addition to Metal Casting.
Mythology needed for Parthenon in addition to Aesthetics.
Astronomy requires Ship Building and Mathematics.
Iron Working requires Construction and Bronze Working.
Fortification requires Construction and Military Strategy.
Employment requires Record Keeping and Construction.
Writing requires Record Keeping and Oral Tradition.
Philosophy requires Representation and Mythology. No scientist to first Civ to discover.
Divination requires Mythology and Priesthood
Navigation requires Astronomy and Calendar.
Metal Casting requires Iron Working.
Engineering requires Iron Working and Fortification.
Aesthetics requires Philosophy and Mathematics. Allows Parthenon, which also needs Mythology.
Currency requires Employment and Writing
Law requires Writing and Philosophy.
Anatomy requires Philosophy and Divination. Scientist to first Civ to discover. +1 Health.
Anatomy leads to Medicine.
Organized Religion requires Divination and Hereditary Rule. Leads to Theology.
Organized Religion allows: Great Temple, Organized Religion, and Ankor Wat.
(Ankor Wat still requires Aesthetics.)
Theology requires Organized Religion and Philosophy. Allows Theocracy or maybe Dogma does.
Medicine requires Anatomy and Writing.

Additional suggested changes:
Trimene: In addition to Ship Building requires Copper Working. (To build the copper ram.)
Great Lighthouse: only +1 trade routes rather than +2.
Great Library requires Philosophy in addition to Writing.
Chichen Itza: change to a free wall in every city.
Confederation is allowed with Politics.
Caste System is allowed with Guilds or maybe with Artisanry.
Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, predates Stonehenge by thousands of years.
Great Wonder. Requires Ritual. (Stonehenge had been moved to Stargazing.)
Possible Powers: Each citizen specialist in any city gets +1 coins and +1 culture,
or gives one free priest in city where built,
or has the current ability of Stonehenge and then revise Stonehenge.
Possible revisions of Stonehenge: free cemetery in every city; would need to increase the cost.
Great Star Catalog. Requires Astronomy and Record Keeping. Great Wonder.
Each scientist specialist gets +2 science more than currently.
Sun Tzuʼs Art of War. Great Wonder. Requires Military Strategy and Writing.
All mounted units built start with Flanking II. All archery units built start with Drill II.
Baths of Caracella: Great Wonder. free Baths in every city. Requires Hydraulics and Medicine.
Grand Cannel: Great Wonder. Requires Hydraulics and an Aqueduct. Two free Merchants in the
city.
Cotton Gin. National Project. Requires Replaceable Parts. +2 hammers on all cotton plantations.
(May want to include Flax as well for game purposes in order to increase the potential usefulness.)

Azoth

Jul 25, 2011, 02:29 PM

Moving right along into the Medieval Era:

Masonry
Current: The finest workers in stone are not copper or steel tools, but the gentle touches of air and water working at the leisure with a liberal allowance of time. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. -Michelangelo

Once again, Thoreau is speaking against masonry; for him, the finest work in stone is apparently erosion. Better go with Michelangelo.

Machinery
Current: A god from the machine. -Menander
Suggested: We are becoming the servants in thought, as in action, of the machine we have created to serve us. -John Kenneth Galbraith

"A god from the machine"? That's a literary device, deus ex machina. It has nothing to do with machinery. It's not even a complete sentence!

Hydraulics
Current: Water is the driving force of all nature. -Leonardo da Vinci
Suggested: No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus

This one was tough. The da Vinci quote is mundane. I went with Heraclitus because the Hydraulics technology enables Levees and spreads irrigation. (Thus, no man ever steps in the same river twice because man changes the river.)

Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. -W.B. Yeats

Yeats is awesome. Those are the fifth to the eight lines of "The Second Coming." If you want to include the opening couplets, they run as follows: Turning and turning in a widening gyre, The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. Like I said, awesome.

Printing
Current: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind. -Wendell Phillips
Suggested: Ideals jump across the hierarchies of the printed word. -Dennis Potter

I want to avoid quotes that simply identify one thing (printing) with something else (gunpowder); hence the switch.

Free Artistry renamed Music
Current: Fine art is that in which the hand, the head, and the heart of man go together. -John Ruskin
Suggested: If music be the food of love, play on. -William Shakespeare

Now that we have both Aesthetics and Artisanry, I'm not sure what "Free Artistry" is supposed to mean, or why it should be unavailable until the Medieval Era. Surely the ancient Greeks, among others, engaged in "Free Artistry"? I suggest you rename this technology Music. Music is, of course, a very old art form; but this technology would refer specifically to formal musical notation, composition, and instruments - developments which occurred in the Medieval Era across Europe, Arabia, India, and China.

Gunpowder
Current: You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. -Al Capone
Suggested: Cannon to the right of them, Cannon to the left of them, Cannon in front of them, Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the jaws of Hell, Rode the six hundred. -Lord Tennyson

Guns come much later than Gunpowder; I suggest you move the Al Capone quote to Firearms. Since Gunpowder unlocks Bombards, I thought "The Coming of the Light Brigade," by Tennyson, was appropriate.

Let me know what you think of these changes. Am I changing too much? Going too fast? Does anyone have any other suggestions for new quotes or quotes they would like to see changed? If you don't stop me, I'll proceed right on through to the Modern Era. I already have a very thought-provoking quote in mind for Future Tech.

Simon_Jester

Jul 25, 2011, 03:45 PM

Xyth

Jul 26, 2011, 03:39 AM

I'm glad you liked them. Here are some more for the Classical Era:

I'll use Seafaring, Priesthood (Tagore), Artisanry and Politics. I'm happy to change the Divination quote but that one, though good, is too long.

Moving right along into the Medieval Era:

I'll use Machinery and Hydraulics. I agree that the erosion quote is less than ideal but the Michaelangelo quote is about stonecarving rather than masonry, lets keep looking. I like Yeats but the Aquinas quote was already suggested by another contributor and I think it works a bit better. Gunpowder quote is awesome but too long.

Artisanry is about the rise of the independent craftsman, Free Artistry is about the liberation of art from religious and political censorship and function.

Let me know what you think of these changes. Am I changing too much? Going too fast? Does anyone have any other suggestions for new quotes or quotes they would like to see changed? If you don't stop me, I'll proceed right on through to the Modern Era. I already have a very thought-provoking quote in mind for Future Tech.

Feel free to keep posting these suggestions, some good improvements so far. I prefer to keep quotes shorter rather than longer though.

Copied from the main thread, here is my proposed revision to the early tech tree.
See the attached pdf file. (Same as prior one.)
The last page has some additional ideas.

Thanks for reposting this, I plan to look at it thoroughly once I've sorted what I'm doing in terms of terrain changes. I've decided that there is definitely no room for 2 more tech columns in the early tree, but 1 is a possibility.

Is the early tree what really needs even more work and additions? I don't really want to wind up spending a larger proportion of the game in the Stone Age than I already do.

There are a few quirks in the Ancient/Classical era that could be sorted by adding one more tech column (without slowing things down too much), I'll see how it goes.

Azoth

Jul 26, 2011, 01:59 PM

I'll use Seafaring, Priesthood (Tagore), Artisanry and Politics. I'm happy to change the Divination quote but that one, though good, is too long.

How about this?

Divination
Current: Divine life is in touch with the whole universe on the analogy of the soul's contact with the body. -Muhammad Iqbal
Suggested: The truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing. -Socrates

If we cannot quote the Mesoamerican diviners, we must fall back on the Mediterranean. An alternate take on that quote:
The truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say: "This man among you, mortals, is wisest, who understands that his wisdom is worthless." -Socrates

I'll use Machinery and Hydraulics.

Any thoughts on Printing?

Printing
Current: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind. -Wendell Phillips
Suggested: Ideals jump across the hierarchies of the printed word. -Dennis Potter

The reference to the "printed word" instead of the "printing press" extends the scope to inventors other than Gutenberg.

I agree that the erosion quote is less than ideal but the Michaelangelo quote is about stonecarving rather than masonry, lets keep looking.

Here's another, and better at that:

Masonry
Current: The finest workers in stone are not copper or steel tools, but the gentle touches of air and water working at the leisure with a liberal allowance of time. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: There hammer on the anvil smote, there chisel clove and graver wrote; There forged was blade and bound was hilt; The delver mined, the mason built. -J.R.R. Tolkien

The quote is broad; but all those crafts are derivative of Masonry, in the tech tree and in life.

I like Yeats but the Aquinas quote was already suggested by another contributor and I think it works a bit better.

Aquinas did indeed disagree with the established Church on a number of points. I just feel that particular Aquinas quote lacks a certain punch. Consider:

Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: In God's tribunal, those who return are always received. But the Church presumes they are not sincere; hence she does not protect them from the sentence of death. -Thomas Aquinas

Gunpowder quote is awesome but too long.

Would you consider an abridged version?

Gunpowder
Current: You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. -Al Capone
Suggested: Cannon in front of them, Volley'd and thunder'd; Stormed at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well; Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell; Rode the six hundred. -Lord Tennyson

Artisanry is about the rise of the independent craftsman, Free Artistry is about the liberation of art from religious and political censorship and function.

Ah, then perhaps the Aesthetics quote belongs at Free Artistry. (Note that George Sand was a necessary pseudonym for a female novelist. That quote should be attributed to Baroness Dudevant.)

Aesthetics
Current: Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful, that is the faith that I am searching for. -George Sand
Suggested: I believe in the might of design, the mystery of colour, the redemption of all things by Beauty everlasting, and the message of Art that has made these hands blessed. -George Bernard Shaw

Free Artistry
Current: Fine art is that in which the hand, the head, and the heart of man go together. -John Ruskin
Suggested: Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful, that is the faith that I am searching for. -Baroness Dudevant

Feel free to keep posting these suggestions, some good improvements so far. I prefer to keep quotes shorter rather than longer though.

Thanks for the comments; will do.

Xyth

Jul 27, 2011, 04:24 AM

@Azoth:

Using Masonry, Aesthetics, Free Artistry, abridged Gunpowder.

Still not happy with Divination, it needs to be a bit more 'primal' and not easily identified with a specific culture. Though I am quite tempted to go with something a bit irreverent: "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him." - Ian Anderson

Despite it's Gutenberg connotations I prefer the simplicity and power by analogy of the original Printing quote. I still prefer the original Aquinas quote for Dogma, the new one is a bit too narrow in focus.

@Howard:

Though I'm still too busy with the terrain stuff to examine all the tech ideas I thought I'd have a look at the additional suggestions section of your proposal.

Trimene: In addition to Ship Building requires Copper Working. (To build the copper ram.)

In 0.9.4 I changed Shipbuilding to also require Construction - which requires Copper Working.

Great Lighthouse: only +1 trade routes rather than +2.

Yes, this wonder is stupidly overpowered on naval maps. Done.

Great Library requires Philosophy in addition to Writing.

Since Philosophy requires Writing, this would be akin to shifting the wonder to Philosophy. If it's just for thematic reasons then I don't think it's necessary. It allows the Great Library to also represent other 'great libraries' of antiquity, such as the much earlier one at Nineveh.

Chichen Itza: change to a free wall in every city.

This wonder makes no sense the way Firaxis designed it, even the name is wrong. We're discussing redesigning it completely over in the buildings feedback thread. The only wonder that makes any sense to me to give a free wall to every city is the Great Wall but I think it's stats are more or less fine.

Confederation is allowed with Politics.

Caste System is allowed with Guilds or maybe with Artisanry.

It was shifted to Priesthood in 0.9.4. I don't want all the Labour and Economic civics to be available in the same section of the tree and Caste System fit well in the religious part.

Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, predates Stonehenge by thousands of years.
Great Wonder. Requires Ritual. (Stonehenge had been moved to Stargazing.)
Possible Powers: Each citizen specialist in any city gets +1 coins and +1 culture,
or gives one free priest in city where built,
or has the current ability of Stonehenge and then revise Stonehenge.
Possible revisions of Stonehenge: free cemetery in every city; would need to increase the cost.

Stonehenge itself predates the beginning of the game by thousands of years so it needs to be available very early. There are many archeoastronomical monuments that predate Stonehenge (Nabta Playa in Nubia is another example) but these are too far outside the timeframe of the game to warrant inclusion I think.

Great Star Catalog. Requires Astronomy and Record Keeping. Great Wonder.
Each scientist specialist gets +2 science more than currently.

Quite a few ancient civilizations kept star records, I'm not aware of any that were more famous or extensive than others. Although it's not a perfect fit, the Nazca Lines are the Wonder I have pencilled in for the Astronomy tech.

Sun Tzuʼs Art of War. Great Wonder. Requires Military Strategy and Writing.
All mounted units built start with Flanking II. All archery units built start with Drill II.

I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.

Baths of Caracella: Great Wonder. free Baths in every city. Requires Hydraulics and Medicine.

I think free baths would be a good bonus for a wonder to give but I don't think the Baths of Caracalla are a good choice. I'm thinking the Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro and I might have some art that is reasonably appropriate for it.

Grand Cannel: Great Wonder. Requires Hydraulics and an Aqueduct. Two free Merchants in the city.

I'm assuming you mean the Grand Canal of China with this. I'd love to add that but it really requires art on a scale similar to the Great Wall to do it justice and no such art exists.

Cotton Gin. National Project. Requires Replaceable Parts. +2 hammers on all cotton plantations.
(May want to include Flax as well for game purposes in order to increase the potential usefulness.)

I've not looked at projects before but they seem to be extremely limited in what can be done with them. Something like this is probably better suited to a building or national wonder, and probably better served by being including all the textile resources. Textile Mill perhaps. I don't yet know if there's scope for something along these lines yet.

Simon_Jester

Jul 27, 2011, 08:55 AM

Yes, this wonder is stupidly overpowered on naval maps. Done.My only concern is that this makes it far less desirable on non-naval maps: if I only have two or three coastal cities in the ancient era, the incentive to build the Great Lighthouse goes down a lot.

Stonehenge itself predates the beginning of the game by thousands of years so it needs to be available very early. There are many archeoastronomical monuments that predate Stonehenge (Nabta Playa in Nubia is another example) but these are too far outside the timeframe of the game to warrant inclusion I think.Um. Stonehenge does not predate the beginning of the game chronologically; it dates to ~3000 BC at the earliest and the iconic stones weren't raised until considerably later. Granted that it does predate the rise of permanent large settlements in Britain, though, as I understand it.

I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.I'd say it's not inappropriate.

I've not looked at projects before but they seem to be extremely limited in what can be done with them. Something like this is probably better suited to a building or national wonder, and probably better served by being including all the textile resources. Textile Mill perhaps. I don't yet know if there's scope for something along these lines yet.I think the "+2 hammers on textile crop plantations" is far too limited for the scope of a wonder. A given civilization will only have a few tiles like that to exploit, and compared to other wonders, even other national wonders, a bonus of +4 or +8 hammers in the entire civilization is much too weak.

Moreover, most national wonders denote something unusually impressive about a civilization- its greatest steel mills (steel being vitally important to all industrial society), its museums, its national epics and monuments. Things like that. But "this is our country's biggest textile mill?" I don't think so.

Azoth

Jul 27, 2011, 12:48 PM

Moving through the Renaissance into the Industrial Era:

Humanism
Current: The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. -Arthur C. Clarke
Suggested: I am a man. Nothing human is alien to me. -Terence

The hostility to religion expressed by Clarke is at odds with Renaissance humanism, whose major focus was the human condition. By contrast, that line from Terence became a byword for the humanist attitude, both secular and religious. I can suggest more flowery alternatives if you prefer; but the Clarke quote is wholly inappropriate.

Replaceable Parts
Current: I can make just such ones if I had tools, and I could make tools if I had tools to make them with. -Eli Whitney
Suggested: In my mind, I change the construction and make improvements, without ever drawing a sketch; and when completed, all the parts fit. -Nikola Tesla

At long last, we have a quote about replaceable parts from a gifted inventor with the opportunity to make use of them. I can't say I liked the Aristotle quote from BtS, either.

Labour Unions
Current: Where labour unions are most firmly organized, there are the rights of the people most respected. -Samuel Gompers
Suggested: Let the workers organize. Let the toilers assemble. Let their crystallized voice proclaim their injustices and demand their privileges. Let all thoughtful citizens sustain them. -John L. Lewis

I was looking for a more engaging quote: a call to action, as it were. If you don't much care for Lewis, I might suggest some of Gompers' more interesting remarks:

What does Labour want? We want more schoolhouses and less jails; more books and less arsenals; more justice and less revenge; in fact, more of the opportunities to cultivate our better natures. -Samuel Gompers
Show me the country that has no strikes and I will show you the country in which there is no liberty. -Samuel Gompers

Photography
Current: Photography is a major force in explaining man to man -Edward Steichen
Suggested: A picture shows me at a glance what it takes a dozen pages to expound. -Ivan Turgenev

The quote from Turgenev is a literary precursor to the adage "A picture is worth a thousand words," which was coined by an advertising agent and wrongly attributed to Confucius.

Journalism
Current: Today's gossip is tomorrow's headline. -Walter Winchell
Suggested: Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light. -Joseph Pulitzer

Much journalism may be gossip but it's not something to boast about.
If you're looking for something snappier, how about: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: It will be a bitter pill to her; that is, like other bitter pills, it will have two moments' ill favour, and then be swallowed and forgotten. -Jane Austen

Looking for laughs? Consider instead: When at last we are sure You've been properly pilled, Then a few paper forms Must be properly filled So that you and your heirs May be properly billed. -Dr. Seuss

Feminism
Current: Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. -Rebecca West
Suggested: Women hold up half the sky. -Chinese proverb

Another take on feminism; controversial, perhaps, because it was a favourite proverb of Chairman Mao.

Still not happy with Divination, it needs to be a bit more 'primal' and not easily identified with a specific culture. Though I am quite tempted to go with something a bit irreverent: "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him." - Ian Anderson

Irreverent is good; but I would prefer the quote have something to do with divination, prophecy, oracles, or the like. I should be able to find something: if not in earnest, then in mockery.

ripple01

Jul 27, 2011, 02:52 PM

Azoth, I'm enjoying your quote suggestions and am pilfering a few to use for my own mod.

Xyth, I like Azoth's quote suggested for Humanism, but want to make a suggestion which I am using.

I am using the current Gallilei Scientific Method quote for Humanism (I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. ) Seems a better fit for the ideals of humanism than scientific method to me.

The quote I am using for Scientific Method in its stead is by Isaac Asimov: The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' although I'm sure Azoth might have some good suggestions for that as well.

Cheers!

Here a couple of alternatives I will suggest to some of Azoth's

Architecture: In the architectural structure, man's pride, man's triumph over gravitation, man's will to power, assume a visible form." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Ritual: Ritual will always mean throwing away something: destroying our corn or wine upon the altar of our gods." - Gilbert K. Chesterton

Military Tradition: If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country? - General George S. Patton

Gunpowder: The real use of gunpowder is to make all men tall." - Thomas Carlyle

Xyth

Jul 27, 2011, 05:54 PM

My only concern is that this makes it far less desirable on non-naval maps: if I only have two or three coastal cities in the ancient era, the incentive to build the Great Lighthouse goes down a lot.

In this case I think it's more important to have a naval-themed Wonder balanced on naval-themed maps. We could always add a second, smaller benefit to compensate though.

Um. Stonehenge does not predate the beginning of the game chronologically; it dates to ~3000 BC at the earliest and the iconic stones weren't raised until considerably later. Granted that it does predate the rise of permanent large settlements in Britain, though, as I understand it.

Yeah I'm getting my dates confused, the site was used thousands of years before the game begins but the monument itself only started resembling it's final form during the Bronze Age.

I'd say it's not inappropriate.

There's bound to be art available for a Sun Tzu wonder somewhere.

Moreover, most national wonders denote something unusually impressive about a civilization- its greatest steel mills (steel being vitally important to all industrial society), its museums, its national epics and monuments. Things like that. But "this is our country's biggest textile mill?" I don't think so.

Yeah, sounds weird to me too. The Ironworks National Wonder is already pushing the definition a bit.

Moving through the Renaissance into the Industrial Era:

I'll use Humanism, Replaceable Parts, Labour Unions (Lewis), Photography, Journalism (Pulitzer)

I prefer to keep the current Feminism one as is for this tech I think it is essential that the quote is by a woman and that's one of the most famous quotes from modern Feminism.

I'll use the Dr. Seuss quote for Pharmaceuticals for now but maybe we can find something a bit more specific.

Azoth, I'm enjoying your quote suggestions and am pilfering a few to use for my own mod.

Xyth, I like Azoth's quote suggested for Humanism, but want to make a suggestion which I am using.

Here a couple of alternatives I will suggest to some of Azoth's

Thanks for these! I'll use Architecture and Gunpowder. I like the Asimov quote too, it would be good to use it somewhere but prefer the Terence/Galileo combination for Humanism/Scientific Method.

Howard Mahler

Jul 27, 2011, 08:48 PM

I should have made it clearer that this was all written (and originally posted) a while ago with respect to version 0.9.3 and my proposed changes to the tech tree.

Look up the Göbekli Tepe in Turkey if you have not done so.
It is a very old and very extensive ancient wonder that has come to light in the last two decades.

It is a shame that artwork limits what you can have for Wonders.

The ancient star catalogue that is probably the most famous is Ptolemy of Alexandria,
although it was based on the work of others.
"The Almagest is the only surviving comprehensive ancient treatise on astronomy. Babylonian astronomers had developed arithmetical techniques for calculating astronomical phenomena; Greek astronomers such as Hipparchus had produced geometric models for calculating celestial motions. Ptolemy, however, claimed to have derived his geometrical models from selected astronomical observations by his predecessors spanning more than 800 years, though astronomers have for centuries suspected that his models' parameters were adopted independently of observations.[19] Ptolemy presented his astronomical models in convenient tables, which could be used to compute the future or past position of the planets.[20] The Almagest also contains a star catalogue, which is an appropriated version of a catalogue created by Hipparchus."

@Howard:

Though I'm still too busy with the terrain stuff to examine all the tech ideas I thought I'd have a look at the additional suggestions section of your proposal.

In 0.9.4 I changed Shipbuilding to also require Construction - which requires Copper Working.

Yes, this wonder is stupidly overpowered on naval maps. Done.

Since Philosophy requires Writing, this would be akin to shifting the wonder to Philosophy. If it's just for thematic reasons then I don't think it's necessary. It allows the Great Library to also represent other 'great libraries' of antiquity, such as the much earlier one at Nineveh.

This wonder makes no sense the way Firaxis designed it, even the name is wrong. We're discussing redesigning it completely over in the buildings feedback thread. The only wonder that makes any sense to me to give a free wall to every city is the Great Wall but I think it's stats are more or less fine.

It was shifted to Priesthood in 0.9.4. I don't want all the Labour and Economic civics to be available in the same section of the tree and Caste System fit well in the religious part.

Stonehenge itself predates the beginning of the game by thousands of years so it needs to be available very early. There are many archeoastronomical monuments that predate Stonehenge (Nabta Playa in Nubia is another example) but these are too far outside the timeframe of the game to warrant inclusion I think.

Quite a few ancient civilizations kept star records, I'm not aware of any that were more famous or extensive than others. Although it's not a perfect fit, the Nazca Lines are the Wonder I have pencilled in for the Astronomy tech.

I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.

I think free baths would be a good bonus for a wonder to give but I don't think the Baths of Caracalla are a good choice. I'm thinking the Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro and I might have some art that is reasonably appropriate for it.

I'm assuming you mean the Grand Canal of China with this. I'd love to add that but it really requires art on a scale similar to the Great Wall to do it justice and no such art exists.

I've not looked at projects before but they seem to be extremely limited in what can be done with them. Something like this is probably better suited to a building or national wonder, and probably better served by being including all the textile resources. Textile Mill perhaps. I don't yet know if there's scope for something along these lines yet.

Simon_Jester

Jul 27, 2011, 11:05 PM

Replaceable Parts
Current: I can make just such ones if I had tools, and I could make tools if I had tools to make them with. -Eli Whitney
Suggested: In my mind, I change the construction and make improvements, without ever drawing a sketch; and when completed, all the parts fit. -Nikola Tesla

At long last, we have a quote about replaceable parts from a gifted inventor with the opportunity to make use of them. I can't say I liked the Aristotle quote from BtS, either.Hey, I liked that quote! In fact, I suggested it. And it is about replaceable parts... about the invention of them, by a man who more or less invented the concept of interchangeable parts.

In this case I think it's more important to have a naval-themed Wonder balanced on naval-themed maps. We could always add a second, smaller benefit to compensate though.Yes, let's. Any ideas? Making the city it's built in a major trade entrepot, the way Alexandria was in real life?

Yeah, sounds weird to me too. The Ironworks National Wonder is already pushing the definition a bit.I think it makes sense. The great industrial areas of a nation, with the most concentrated heavy manufacturing, can be of great strategic significance in war and in peace- the English Midlands, the German Ruhr, the Americans' steel mills at Pittsburgh and around the Great Lakes.

I'll use Humanism, Replaceable Parts, Labour Unions (Lewis), Photography, Journalism (Pulitzer)Grumble!

Azoth

Jul 27, 2011, 11:34 PM

I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.

I'm against this wonder. I agree that there needs to be something memorable, something wondrous to build. More to the point, I argue we have something much more elegant in place of 'Sun Tzu's War Academy,' 'Leonardo's Workshop,' 'J.S. Bach's Cathedral,' and the like. We have Great People! So da Vinci (Great Engineer) can go ahead and invent Machinery on the spot. Bach (Great Artist) can create a Great Work in whichever city he chooses. And Sun Tzu (Great General) can found his famed Armory all on his own. It's the same reason we don't need a 'Plato's Academy' or 'Aristotle's Lyceum' World Wonder. It's all taken care of by Great People.

Azoth, I'm enjoying your quote suggestions and am pilfering a few to use for my own mod.

Pilfer away! I must say I'm rather enjoying tracking them all down.

Thanks for these! I'll use Architecture and Gunpowder. I like the Asimov quote too, it would be good to use it somewhere but prefer the Terence/Galileo combination for Humanism/Scientific Method.

The Gunpowder quote is good but I think I prefer my Architecture quote: the experience of an actual architect (Le Corbusier) carries more weight than the pontification of an armchair philosopher (Nietzsche). Surely we've already quoted Nietzsche somewhere else? That said, I'm confident we can slot Asimov in somewhere; I haven't reached the Modern Era, after all.

Hey, I liked that quote! In fact, I suggested it. And it is about replaceable parts... about the invention of them, by a man who more or less invented the concept of interchangeable parts.

Ah, sorry, when I saw the name Eli Whitney I thought of the cotton gin, and thought no more. Though I see now that Whitney, as a maker of muskets, was largely concerned with replaceable parts in firearms. That probably falls under the Firearms technology. Still, I have no problem restoring your suggested quote.

Yes, let's. Any ideas? Making the city it's built in a major trade entrepot, the way Alexandria was in real life?

Well, the simplest thing would be to have +1 trade route (for the city with the Lighthouse) and a further +1 trade route/coastal city. Is that too underwhelming?

ripple01

Jul 28, 2011, 07:18 AM

The Gunpowder quote is good but I think I prefer my Architecture quote: the experience of an actual architect (Le Corbusier) carries more weight than the pontification of an armchair philosopher (Nietzsche). Surely we've already quoted Nietzsche somewhere else? That said, I'm confident we can slot Asimov in somewhere; I haven't reached the Modern Era, after all.

True, Nietzsche is used in stock BtS for Superconductors: "What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome." I agree that it is nice to have some diversity in who the quotes are taken from and I think the Le Corbusier quote is representative of the tech.

Xyth

Jul 28, 2011, 03:51 PM

It is a shame that artwork limits what you can have for Wonders.

Yeah. While I can make moderate alterations I'm no 3D artist so we're resigned to use what people have already made. As far as I know there are no building creators still working on Civ4, at least none taking requests.

Hey, I liked that quote! In fact, I suggested it. And it is about replaceable parts... about the invention of them, by a man who more or less invented the concept of interchangeable parts.

Ah, sorry, when I saw the name Eli Whitney I thought of the cotton gin, and thought no more. Though I see now that Whitney, as a maker of muskets, was largely concerned with replaceable parts in firearms. That probably falls under the Firearms technology. Still, I have no problem restoring your suggested quote.

Ah sorry, there's been quite a few contributors to quotes recently and I forget which are which. I admit I primarily went with the Tesla quote because, well, it's Tesla, and Eli Whitney is not someone I've heard of. Now that I've read up on him I think it makes sense to switch it back and there's bound to be a tech somewhere later in the tree that could use a quote from Tesla.

Yes, let's. Any ideas? Making the city it's built in a major trade entrepot, the way Alexandria was in real life?

Well, the simplest thing would be to have +1 trade route (for the city with the Lighthouse) and a further +1 trade route/coastal city. Is that too underwhelming?

Possibly a sizeable % bonus to commerce from trade routes in that city only.

I'm against this wonder. I agree that there needs to be something memorable, something wondrous to build. More to the point, I argue we have something much more elegant in place of 'Sun Tzu's War Academy,' 'Leonardo's Workshop,' 'J.S. Bach's Cathedral,' and the like. We have Great People! So da Vinci (Great Engineer) can go ahead and invent Machinery on the spot. Bach (Great Artist) can create a Great Work in whichever city he chooses. And Sun Tzu (Great General) can found his famed Armory all on his own. It's the same reason we don't need a 'Plato's Academy' or 'Aristotle's Lyceum' World Wonder. It's all taken care of by Great People.

Good point.

The Gunpowder quote is good but I think I prefer my Architecture quote: the experience of an actual architect (Le Corbusier) carries more weight than the pontification of an armchair philosopher (Nietzsche).

While I agree that a quote from an architect should carry more weight, in this instance I think Nietzsche's description is perfect. To me Le Corbusier is describing architecture as art and a 'learned game', but Nietzsche is going beyond that and defining what that actually means to human history and accomplishment. Given Civ4 is a game all about accomplishment via building, I prefer the quote that captures that essence.

Simon_Jester

Jul 28, 2011, 10:20 PM

Possibly a sizeable % bonus to commerce from trade routes in that city only [for the Lighthouse]Yes, this arguably makes sense. Historically, the Lighthouse (and the rest of the great port infrastructure along with it) served a number of purposes- they made Alexandria a strong naval base, but especially made it an outstanding trade entrepot and helped open up Egypt to more Mediterranean commerce. Giving "Alexandria" a bonus trade route, or bonus income from same, would work great.

While I agree that a quote from an architect should carry more weight, in this instance I think Nietzsche's description is perfect. To me Le Corbusier is describing architecture as art and a 'learned game', but Nietzsche is going beyond that and defining what that actually means to human history and accomplishment. Given Civ4 is a game all about accomplishment via building, I prefer the quote that captures that essence.Er, which quote again?

Simon_Jester

Jul 28, 2011, 10:56 PM

Hmmm. A few thoughts on the modern tech tree.

I'm not at all sure "Fission," "Nuclear Weapons," and "Nuclear Power" should be three separate techs. Historically, it really only takes (took) about five to eight years for a serious scientific establishment to develop nuclear weapons at all. I'd argue that while it's good for the nuke weapons to require rocketry, that doesn't need a separate tech- just make ICBMs and Tactical Nukes require both fission and rocketry. Nuclear power would then have fission as a direct prerequisite.

it screws up the symmetry of the tree, though, I know. That's gonna be complicated to resolve. I could try... some day. It's gonna be a busy month for me.

I think we need at least one more row of techs, and we may want to start the 'taper down' of the tree from seven techs per row down towards one a little earlier. I'll see what I can do.

Azoth

Jul 28, 2011, 11:29 PM

I'm not at all sure "Fission," "Nuclear Weapons," and "Nuclear Power" should be three separate techs. Historically, it really only takes (took) about five to eight years for a serious scientific establishment to develop nuclear weapons at all. I'd argue that while it's good for the nuke weapons to require rocketry, that doesn't need a separate tech- just make ICBMs and Tactical Nukes require both fission and rocketry. Nuclear power would then have fission as a direct prerequisite.

I agree with you here. Frankly, I think the entire top branch of the tech tree could use a rework. The early Mining-Bronze Working-Iron Working-Steel Working sequence is fine. After that, we get a series of vague names: Military Conduct, Military Science, Military Tradition. A few military tactics - Formation, Entrenchment - are thrown in, followed by those three separate nuclear technologies. By comparison, the rest of the tech tree focuses on clearly social and technical advances. No time is devoted to artistic movements (Scholasticism, Romanticism, Impressionism) or even political philosophy (Liberalism, Communism, Fascism). The military branch really needs to be brought up to par.

Azoth

Jul 29, 2011, 08:06 PM

More Industrial Era quotes, and others:

Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. -Anais Nin

Third time's the charm.

Ballistics
Current: The second amendment says we have the right to bear arms, not to bear artillery. -Robin Williams
Suggested: Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. -Frederick the Great

I much prefer the original BtS quote here.

Metallurgy
Current: There never was a good knife made of bad steel. -Benjamin Franklin
Suggested: The purest ore is produced from the hottest furnace; the brightest thunderbolt is elicited from the darkest storm. -Charles Caleb Colton

A better fit for the technology that unlocks Aluminum and the Ironworks, I think.

Explosives
Current: A bazooka is the skeleton key of the impatient. -Will Timmins
Suggested: You can bomb the world to pieces but you can't bomb it into peace. -Michael Franti

The Timmins quote is decent but I do not know who Will Timmins is or in what context he made that statement. (A brief search revealed nothing.)
The Franti quote is admittedly an imperfect substitute. Here are some alternatives, but I am not completely satisfied with them either:

Custom is petrification; nothing but dynamite can dislodge it for a century. -Mark Twain
Nobel believe he had invented a tool of destruction, dynamite, which would make war so senseless that it would become impossible. He was wrong. -Alva Myrdal

Surveillance
Current: Secrecy, being an instrument of conspiracy, ought never to be the system of a regular government. -Jeremy Bentham
Suggested: Who watches the watchmen? -Juvenal

Bentham is fine; but Juvenal is iconic. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Globalization
Current: It has been said that arguing against globalization is like arguing against the laws of gravity. -Kofi Annan
Suggested: The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image of a global village. -Marshall McLuhan

As the scholar who coined the expression "the global village," Marshall McLuhan is a better fit.

I prefer to keep the current Feminism one as is for this tech I think it is essential that the quote is by a woman and that's one of the most famous quotes from modern Feminism.

Makes sense.

I'll use the Dr. Seuss quote for Pharmaceuticals for now but maybe we can find something a bit more specific.

This one is shorter and to the point:

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: I asked for bread and was given a tranquilizer. -Malcolm Muggeridge

Possibly a sizeable % bonus to commerce from trade routes in that city only.

Hmmm. The Temple of Artemis already gives a 100% percent bonus to trade route commerce. Granted, the Great Lighthouse is a better candidate for that bonus. But then what becomes of the Temple?

Simon_Jester

Jul 30, 2011, 12:28 AM

This one is shorter and to the point:

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: I asked for bread and was given a tranquilizer. -Malcolm MuggeridgeI'm not sure I like it, because the advent of modern pharmaceuticals really is a huge benefit for life in the developed (and, heck, developing). You want a quote that supports the idea that this is a genuine advance- otherwise, it'd be like having some meathead babble about feminazis as the Feminism quote.

In general, Civ techs should be presented in a positive light, I think, unless they are meant to convey serious moral ambiguity- Dogma or Surveillance might be, but Pharmaceuticals is not.

Hmmm. The Temple of Artemis already gives a 100% percent bonus to trade route commerce. Granted, the Great Lighthouse is a better candidate for that bonus. But then what becomes of the Temple?Well, the Temple of Artemis is really a center of religious and artistic beauty- one of the hallmarks of classical Greek architecture, although that honor is shared by the Parthenon. If the Parthenon weren't in the game I'd say give the Temple of Artemis the GPP bonus, but that's already taken.

Could we give the Temple of Artemis some kind of culture-related boost? As it stands, the only wonders I can recall strongly affecting civilization-wide culture are the Sistine Chapel and the Eiffel Tower.

Xyth

Jul 30, 2011, 04:13 AM

Yes, this arguably makes sense. Historically, the Lighthouse (and the rest of the great port infrastructure along with it) served a number of purposes- they made Alexandria a strong naval base, but especially made it an outstanding trade entrepot and helped open up Egypt to more Mediterranean commerce. Giving "Alexandria" a bonus trade route, or bonus income from same, would work great.

Hmmm. The Temple of Artemis already gives a 100% percent bonus to trade route commerce. Granted, the Great Lighthouse is a better candidate for that bonus. But then what becomes of the Temple?

I don't want to displace another wonder's bonus to compensate for the Great Lighthouse being made a little weaker (even though it might be worth swapping the Temple of Artemis' bonus elsewhere). I don't have any ideas at the moment but I'm sure we'll arrive at something suitable. I think it should be a moderate bonus though, on the scale of a building rather than a wonder.

I'm not at all sure "Fission," "Nuclear Weapons," and "Nuclear Power" should be three separate techs

I agree with you here. Frankly, I think the entire top branch of the tech tree could use a rework. ... The military branch really needs to be brought up to par.

That is definitely the weakest part of the techtree, it was certainly the toughest section for me to piece together. When it comes to military history my knowledge and interest tapers off quickly with the invention of firearms.

I think we need at least one more row of techs, and we may want to start the 'taper down' of the tree from seven techs per row down towards one a little earlier. I'll see what I can do.

Do you mean row or column? If column, I agree. A new row would be a nightmare to introduce at this stage.

More Industrial Era quotes, and others:

I'll use Ballistics (not sure why I ever changed it), Explosives (Franti), Surveillance and Globalization.

The Metallurgy quotes are both metaphors which isn't ideal but I prefer the simplicity of Franklin. The second half of the Colton quote feels unrelated but the quote becomes too commonsense without it. And sorry but I still think that the current Aquinas quote captures the essence of the Dogma tech much better.

I'm not sure I like it, because the advent of modern pharmaceuticals really is a huge benefit for life in the developed (and, heck, developing). You want a quote that supports the idea that this is a genuine advance- otherwise, it'd be like having some meathead babble about feminazis as the Feminism quote.

In general, Civ techs should be presented in a positive light, I think, unless they are meant to convey serious moral ambiguity- Dogma or Surveillance might be, but Pharmaceuticals is not.

Yeah I agree. Back to the drawing board for Pharmaceuticals I'm afraid.

Azoth

Jul 30, 2011, 01:37 PM

Now for some quote swaps.

Swap 1
One of the quirks in the Ancient Era tech tree is the interaction between Record Keeping (+1 trade route/city, Redistribution civic), Oral Tradition (Theatres, the Heroic Epic, Tradition civic), and Writing (Libraries, The Great Library, technology trading.) First, it raises the question of how record keeping is possible without writing. Following the example of BtS, I would rename 'Record Keeping' 'Writing'; and rename 'Writing' (that is, the writing of books) 'Literature.' Oral tradition, meanwhile, sounds less like a technology and more like a civic. It also predates the theatre by several centuries and seems better suited for the first column of the tech tree. Thus, I would rename 'Oral Tradition' 'Oratory.' Other possible names include Performance Art and Drama. The Record Keeping quote can be temporarily moved to Welfare; though I suspect that technology, too, will be renamed, to avoid conflict with the Social Welfare civic. In summary:

Record Keeping renamed Writing
Current: The white man knows how to make everything but he does not know how to distribute it. -Sitting Bull
Suggested: True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read. -Pliny the Elder

Oral Tradition renamed Oratory
Current: Be a craftsman in speech that thou mayest be stronger, for the strength of one is the tongue, and speech is mightier than all fighting. -Ptahhotep
Suggested: No change.

Writing renamed Literature
Current: True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read. -Pliny the Elder
Suggested: I cannot live without books. -Thomas Jefferson

Welfare
Current: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? -Reg (John Cleese), 'The Life of Brian'
Suggested: The white man knows how to make everything but he does not know how to distribute it. -Sitting Bull

Swap 2
This one is simpler. Nutrition and Refrigeration share the same quote. One of them must be changed. Just as the Physics quote is a law of mechanics, so the new Refrigeration quote can be a law of thermodynamics.

Refrigeration
Current: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
Suggested: By the expenditure of a like quantity of work, the same amount of heat may be produced. -Rudolf Clausius

Nutrition
Current: You are what you eat. -Proverb
Suggested: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin

I'm not sure I like it, because the advent of modern pharmaceuticals really is a huge benefit [...] In general, Civ techs should be presented in a positive light, I think, unless they are meant to convey serious moral ambiguity.

Oh, I agree; but eminent men and women everywhere seem to disagree. All the quotes I could find imply that pharmaceuticals are unnecessary, ineffective, emasculating, soulless, or absurdly expensive.
This is the best I could come up with; and even then, it is intended ironically:

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: It is an age of pills. -Malcolm Muggeridge

We could broaden the definition of this technology to include the whole of modern medicine. People have nice things to say about their doctors, much as they dislike the medicines they dispense.

I don't want to displace another wonder's bonus to compensate for the Great Lighthouse being made a little weaker (even though it might be worth swapping the Temple of Artemis' bonus elsewhere). I don't have any ideas at the moment but I'm sure we'll arrive at something suitable. I think it should be a moderate bonus though, on the scale of a building rather than a wonder.

We could rework The Great Lighthouse entirely. What about +1 hammer on Water tiles, the bonus attached to the Moai Statues National Wonder in BtS?
Maybe throw in +1 trade route for the Lighthouse city as well?

The Metallurgy quotes are both metaphors which isn't ideal but I prefer the simplicity of Franklin. The second half of the Colton quote feels unrelated but the quote becomes too commonsense without it.

Fair enough; but the Franklin quote doesn't capture the full scope of modern metallurgy: the massive ironworks, the refining of rare metals, the discovery of aluminum.
In fact, it's better suited to Medieval Era Steel Working! I'll keep looking.

Xyth

Jul 30, 2011, 09:00 PM

First, it raises the question of how record keeping is possible without writing. Following the example of BtS, I would rename 'Record Keeping' 'Writing'; and rename 'Writing' (that is, the writing of books) 'Literature.'

Completely disagree, though I suspect there is some difference of definition happening here. Record Keeping is about keeping information about transactions or chronology in some physical form, whilst Writing is about recording language and/or ideas in physical form. I wrote a thesis on the emergence of ancient writing from ancient record keeping as part of my degree, here's a very rough summary:

Record Keeping was the precursor to writing in every civilization that developed writing independently (Sumer, Egypt (controversial), Indus (possibly), China, Mayans). Writing developed from the need to record transactions or track time and there were many systems to do this, the most prevalent of which were clay seals. Seals initially marked ownership via pictures or patterns but over time began to be used to record quantities, dates and 'shipping information' as well. Over time the design of seals become more pictographic in nature which eventually led to actual writing, on the seals themselves, and on tablets and other media as well. There were other systems of record keeping in other parts of the world, such as tally sticks, bone etchings and the Incan quipu.

The Mayan were somewhat of an exception to this but even then their writing system evolved from their number system and calendar. It's still record keeping of sorts, just without the economic focus that occurred everywhere else. Egypt is also a little unique in that though they borrowed the idea of writing from Mesopotamia they didn't borrow the same form and seem to have applied it to administrative and religious functions at around the same time. Even here though, writing wasn't used to record language until later.

Finally, I feel 'Literature' as a tech is disingenuous. People have been recording stories and events for as long as language was able to be written, it wasn't something that developed later.

Oral tradition, meanwhile, sounds less like a technology and more like a civic. It also predates the theatre by several centuries and seems better suited for the first column of the tech tree. Thus, I would rename 'Oral Tradition' 'Oratory.' Other possible names include Performance Art and Drama.

Oral Tradition used to be in the first column in early drafts of the new tech tree but it eventually got shifted later. I agree a name change is needed, I think Oratory works well.

The Record Keeping quote can be temporarily moved to Welfare; though I suspect that technology, too, will be renamed, to avoid conflict with the Social Welfare civic. In summary:

Not sure what I want to do with the Welfare tech at this stage, though I imagine it will be replaced.

Refrigeration
Current: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
Suggested: By the expenditure of a like quantity of work, the same amount of heat may be produced. -Rudolf Clausius

It clearly needs a new quote but I don't think this is the right one.

Nutrition
Current: You are what you eat. -Proverb
Suggested: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin

Brillat-Savarin's quote is merely one interpretation of a very old proverb, I thus prefer to stick with the 'original' even though we cannot trace the original form or author.

We could broaden the definition of this technology to include the whole of modern medicine. People have nice things to say about their doctors, much as they dislike the medicines they dispense.

That's probably the best idea, at least for the quote.

We could rework The Great Lighthouse entirely. What about +1 hammer on Water tiles, the bonus attached to the Moai Statues National Wonder in BtS?
Maybe throw in +1 trade route for the Lighthouse city as well?

No, lets save that for use elsewhere. Lets keep it simple, some options:

• +50% commerce from trade routes in the city
• +1 regular trade route in the city
• +25% commerce in the city
• Free naval promotion allowing double speed movement over reefs

Yep, I'm working on adding reefs, preview soon. Continue discussion of this over at the Building and Wonders thread please.

Fair enough; but the Franklin quote doesn't capture the full scope of modern metallurgy: the massive ironworks, the refining of rare metals, the discovery of aluminum.
In fact, it's better suited to Medieval Era Steel Working! I'll keep looking.

Agreed, lets keep looking.

Azoth

Aug 02, 2011, 11:08 PM

Xyth

Aug 03, 2011, 03:50 PM

Well, I decided to put the quotes on hold and take a look at the tech tree proper. I've attached a revised version to this post.
It's only a rough draft; I've simply sorted the technologies into columns, without including arrows or any other information.
I have not introduced any new columns; instead, I have focused on improving the military branch of the tech tree.
In the process, I have also shuffled many technologies around and made minor improvements across the board.

As soon as I've finished messing around with ranged combat (in)capabilities I'll take your and Howard's suggestions for the tech tree and see what's plausible.

If we are serious about reworking the tech tree, we need to start by finalizing the list of technologies.
I would appreciate some feedback. Have I cut something worth keeping? Have I ignored something worth adding?

The main piece of feedback I have is it's very difficult to judge the merit of your changes without the matching changes to what the techs unlock or how they link to the other techs. While it is easy to say that X tech or X name makes more sense historically than Y, it has to make sense in terms of the game. The tech tree controls the pacing of the game so it's vital that it makes sense in that aspect. We also don't want a whole bunch of techs that unlock very little and some that unlock heaps.

For example, you've added Clockwork, Mechanics, Atomic Theory, Renaissance Astronomy, Optics and Acoustics. These all make sense historically but what do they unlock if all are included? We have to be careful not to fall in a trap of having to add content in order to justify techs, it has to be the other way around most of the time. There's already a few places in the tree where this has happened so I've very hesitant to add more. It's different if it's about spreading out unlocked content that is already too 'clumped' of course.

I won't comment on everything unit I've started trying to make changes, but a few comments:

Hunting and Fishing are skills which long predate human civilization. They were practiced by the ancestors of modern humans many millennia ago. As such, Hunting and Fishing have been renamed Archery and Sailing. The Seafaring technology has also been introduced.

I agree about Hunting, I've always felt that was a bit of a silly inclusion. I like changing it to Archery except that then it makes little sense as a prerequisite for Textiles. I'll have to see how/if the ancient era gets shuffled but I agree it's worth aiming for.

I've renamed the current Sailing tech as Seafaring as it's inclusive of both wind and oar powered vessels. I don't think having both Sailing and Seafaring, Fishing makes the most sense given what that tech unlocks. I think in this case we need to consider the tech to represent the development of larger-scale fishing rather than initial fishing and we should change the pedia entry accordingly.

Record Keeping and Writing have been renamed Writing and Literature. Xyth, I do think our disagreement on this point is entirely semantic: I feel 'Writing' and 'Literature' better capture the interaction you describe. In the eyes of the non-specialist, a civilization discovers Writing precisely when it begins to keep records: of possessions and property, of prayers and rituals, of battles and treaties. A civilization produces Literature when it records ideas: treatises of economics and politics, religion and philosophy, war and peace, to be housed in Libraries.

I'm not willing to change this sorry. Record Keeping is an economic tech, it's much wider in scope than just written records, it's also about the administration and economic advances of ancient times. Many civs had complex and even international systems before they discovered any sort of writing, if they did at all. Currency and Mathematics were possible and indeed quite complex in several ancient illiterate civilizations. Making this change would undermine all of that.

Fealty has been absorbed under Land Tenure; Free Artistry has likewise fallen under Patronage and Humanism. In their place, I have introduced Chivalry and Acoustics.

I dislike Chivalry as a tech, it's not something that was universal nor essential to human advancement. It's also very Eurocentric, and I think it is covered by the Warrior Code civic. I acknowledge that Military Conduct suffers similar problems.

Military Conduct, Formation, Military Science, Military Tradition, Entrenchment, Total War, Nuclear Weapons, and Nuclear Power have all been removed. They were either too vague or too narrowly focused on military strategy. I have moved the entire Gunpowder to Rocketry branch to the top row, leaving more room for new technologies elsewhere.

Completely agree that all of those techs are less than ideal but I'm not sure we can get away with replacing them with non-military techs. Shall see.

EDIT: Ranged combat is driving me nuts, I shall take a break and work on the techtree today instead.

Simon_Jester

Aug 03, 2011, 10:45 PM

I think we should have a military line of technologies. Like it or not, much of the game revolves around warfare; there are peaceful ways to win but it's dangerous to ignore war.

On the one hand, this should be reflected in the tech tree to some extent, although the existing military line may take it a bit far- I'll try to find time to think about that. On the other, isolating military techs into their own branch also lets you make the decision to concentrate on the civilian technology at the expense of your civilization's warfighting abilities.

Azoth

Aug 03, 2011, 11:13 PM

The main piece of feedback I have is it's very difficult to judge the merit of your changes without the matching changes to what the techs unlock or how they link to the other techs. While it is easy to say that X tech or X name makes more sense historically than Y, it has to make sense in terms of the game. The tech tree controls the pacing of the game so it's vital that it makes sense in that aspect. We also don't want a whole bunch of techs that unlock very little and some that unlock heaps.

Oh, absolutely. And I can include more information in a future draft if that helps. But I thought it best to proceed in stages. As it is, I've only proposed replacing 18 of the 135 techs, so most of the connections will remain. Actually, I'd like to focus on the Big Picture stuff first. Before getting bogged down in the details, we should make sure that each technology represents a clear and distinct achievement; that the technologies in each column are roughly contemporaneous; that nothing of significance has been omitted; and that the pacing of the tech tree across the eras feels right.

Once we have that, the rest should be easy.

For example, you've added Clockwork, Mechanics, Atomic Theory, Renaissance Astronomy, Optics and Acoustics. These all make sense historically but what do they unlock if all are included? We have to be careful not to fall in a trap of having to add content in order to justify techs, it has to be the other way around most of the time. There's already a few places in the tree where this has happened so I've very hesitant to add more. It's different if it's about spreading out unlocked content that is already too 'clumped' of course.

Yup. One of my goals is to spread "clumped" content across multiple technologies, and in some cases multiple branches. As a general rule of thumb, I think every technology should unlock multiple things, but only one of each type of thing: only one new unit, one new building, one new Wonder, one new improvement, one new Civic. That way, content is well-distributed across the tech tree and every technology feels unique. (You never fall in the trap of Military Tech I, Military Tech II, Military Tech III, etc.) Of course, the rule will sometimes be broken; the Aesthetics technology might logically unlock more than one Wonder. In that case, I would suggest that one or more of those Wonders be linked to a relevant technology in another part of the tech tree, to preserve variety.

Completely agree that all of those techs are less than ideal but I'm not sure we can get away with replacing them with non-military techs. Shall see.

This is the biggest change I've proposed and I think we can make it work. The first half of the military branch works so well precisely because it includes technologies that had an impact on society as a whole. Copper Working-Bronze Working-Metal Casting-Iron Working-Steel Working-Machinery: these are not simply military technologies, and it shows; they unlock new resources, new worker abilities, new buildings, and new Wonders. By the same token, the second half of the military branch should run as follows: Gunpowder-Firearms-Replaceable Parts-Rifling-Ballistics-Explosives. All those technologies have a distinct military flavour but they also set the pace of progress across wider human society. They are certainly preferable to Military Conduct-Formation-Military Science-Military Tradition-Entrenchment-Total War, and I am confident we can accommodate any displaced military units elsewhere. (We can move Grenadiers to Chemistry and Machine Guns to Railroad, for example.)

As for the rest of my suggested changes, you can take them or leave them; but this, I think, is critical.

I think we should have a military line of technologies. Like it or not, much of the game revolves around warfare; there are peaceful ways to win but it's dangerous to ignore war.

Again, I'm not suggesting we should eliminate the military branch; I'm suggesting we should replace it with something better. Consider:

Gunpowder-Firearms-Replaceable Parts-Rifling-Ballistics-Explosives; as opposed to
Military Conduct-Formation-Military Science-Military Tradition-Entrenchment-Total War

On a related note, I would much prefer that Tanks required some combination of Combustion, Ballistics, Metallurgy, and Polymers (genuine technological advances, often spurred by military necessity) instead of something like Total War (a military doctrine specific to a particular geopolitics).

Xyth

Aug 03, 2011, 11:59 PM

Before getting bogged down in the details, we should make sure that each technology represents a clear and distinct achievement; that the technologies in each column are roughly contemporaneous; that nothing of significance has been omitted; and that the pacing of the tech tree across the eras feels right.

Actually the details are more important than the big picture in my opinion. It's MUCH harder to design a tree and fit a balanced game into it than vice versa. A lot of the elements that aren't as historical as they could be were because I initially built the tree with pacing in mind rather than accuracy (except the Industrial/Modern eras, they were quite rushed in comparison to the rest of the tree and it shows). Since then I been slowly tweaking it to improve both aspects.

"nothing of significance has been omitted" - but only if there something sensible for it to unlock. "each technology represents a clear and distinct achievement" - agreed, but sometimes this just isn't possible without creating clumping or techs too unrelated to what they unlock.

As a general rule of thumb, I think every technology should unlock multiple things, but only one of each type of thing: only one new unit, one new building, one new Wonder, one new improvement, one new Civic.

I agree but I see no point in forcing separation of units like Heavy Footmen and Heavy Horsemen, or Musketmen and Cuirassiers.

Of course, the rule will sometimes be broken; the Aesthetics technology might logically unlock more than one Wonder. In that case, I would suggest that one or more of those Wonders be linked to a relevant technology in another part of the tech tree, to preserve variety.

Yep, many of them already do this. I also like to avoid techs that only unlock Wonders as much as possible.

As for the rest of my suggested changes, you can take them or leave them; but this, I think, is critical.

Don't worry, I'm well aware that this is the weakest part of the tree.

Simon_Jester

Aug 04, 2011, 11:01 PM

Well, I'd like to preserve at least a few 'military' techs, but the whole line with its numerous examples (Fortification, Entrenchment, etc.) is perhaps a bit much.

Total War is a very logical industrial tech, because it reflects something that is true in every Civ game, if not in every part of the real world: industrial development had gotten to the point where the world was full, where populations permitted armies in the millions, where new weapons had made offense and defense both infinitely more powerful than they'd been a century earlier.

That changed a lot of things.

Xyth

Aug 12, 2011, 03:06 AM

I've been working on the techtree a fair bit over the last week. The second half of the tree is getting some more significant changes but I feel the first half only needs relatively small tweaks. Most of it is still very much unfinished but I've attached a preview of the start of the tree where I've made a few small but significant changes.

Cross Links
• Pastoralism ---> Leather Working
• Leather Working ---> Riding
• Construction ---> Shipbuilding
• Astronomy ---> Mathematics

Notes
• There are now only 4 starting techs, all appropriately Stone Age in theme
• Agriculture, Pottery and Textiles have no prerequisites; they're available for all civs at the start of the game but no civ gets them for free
• Astronomy may get renamed, depending what changes are made later in the tree. It also needs to unlock more than it currently does.
• Map Trading has moved later in the tree
• Fortification is missing because I haven't yet decided if I'm keeping it there or not

I made these changes because assigning starting techs was bugging me, some combinations were much stronger than others and I didn't like how some were quite anachronistic compared to others. I think this new scheme solves all these issues and allows me to spread what's unlocked around a bit more evenly than it was before.

I'd like people's thoughts on where they think the Archer, Skirmisher and Wineries should go. I'm still a bit unsure on those. I don't wish to give them dedicated techs like Archery or Fermentation as I feel that trying to introduce those without significant other changes would break the balance of the tree up too much.

Howard, I've had a thorough look through your proposal and for the most part I like it but I feel that it's just too much for a full game mod. With an Ancient era that full it creates the need to give all the other eras a similar level of detail and that's not something I really want to do.

KaneofEgypt

Aug 12, 2011, 09:55 AM

Xyth

Aug 13, 2011, 02:43 AM

I have to also add that America only came about in the late 1700s, and these were originally colonists from Britain, so they knew the "techs" of the ancient, classical, renaissance, and other techs that the British knew. It was especially hard to look at their beginning techs since they were ancient techs for a modern civ.

That's an unavoidable problem if America, or any modern nation with no early history of its own, is included as a civ. It's part of the reason why I don't wish to add any more such civs.

A few additional changes to the chart that I posted earlier:

• Pastoralism has been renamed Domestication
• Fortification is gone from the Ancient/Classical era
• In its place is a new tech: Plumbing (unlocks Aqueducts, Bath, Hanging Gardens)

I've ended up making more changes to the Medieval/Renaissance era than I intended but I'm making good progress. Will hopefully have a preview soon.

KaneofEgypt

Aug 13, 2011, 08:56 AM

But I thought you were planning on adding Brazil, so how will you work that out? Brazil's independence from Portugal came in 1822, later than America's independence from Britain.

Azoth

Aug 13, 2011, 01:56 PM

I really like the changes you've made to the early tech tree.
I hope you won't think me presumptuous if I suggest a few more tweaks in the same direction.
I've attached a copy of my proposed changes to this post.
I don't have much time this afternoon so I'll just give a brief summary:

Crosslinks:

Pottery --> The Wheel
The Wheel --> Construction
Construction --> Shipbuilding
Cartography --> Mathematics

Note: Pastoralism --> Leather Working and Leather Working --> Riding are naturally present in the revised version.

Comments:

Carving leads to Pottery and Archery. The three most important early game technologies - Agriculture, Pastoralism, and Mining - have no prerequisite. Note that Agriculture and Pastoralism lead to Property and the Monarchy civic, so it is doubly important that no civilization has an advantage in that race.
Textiles has been removed, Archery has been added, and Leather Working has been retained. There were too many new buildings in the Ancient Era (Well, Weaver, Tanner, Cemetery, Kiln) and of those, the Weaver caused the most problems: its culture output competed with the Monument and Theatre; and its resource bonuses were too terrain dependent. It should be reintroduced in the Classical or Medieval Era, with a name change as appropriate.
Nazca Lines have been recast as the Incan Unique Wonder, replacing the National Monument. (Their current Unique Wonder, Machu Picchu, is woefully inadequate. It was not only a residence of kings; it was a city in its own right. That's why it is included on the Incan city list; it makes no sense to "build Machu Picchu" in Tiwanaku, for instance.)
In place of the Nazca Lines, a new Wonder from pre-Columbian America has been introduced: the Cliff Palace, built in Mesa Verde by the Anasazi. Effect: -100% city maintenance, +25% food stored (stacks with Granary and Smokehouse)
Astronomy has been renamed Cartography. It enables Open Borders and centres the World Map.
The Fishing Boats improvement has been split up into Fishery (for Fish, Shellfish, and Clam) and Harvest (for Seal, Whale, and Amber). Whaling is now in its proper place in the tech tree: the Japanese, the Norwegians, and the Inuit (among others) hunted whales in the Ancient Era.
Horseman now require Employment, Riding, and either Copper or Iron.
Baths are left at Medicine; there are plenty of health buildings in the Ancient Era already.
The Granary has been moved to Agriculture. Wineries are enabled at Pottery.
Spearman are available at Copper Working not Agriculture.
I much prefer the name Sailing (which makes sense for Work Boats and trade over rivers) to Boating (which implies a recreational activity.) Likewise, I prefer Pastoralism (or Animal Husbandry) to Domestication (which applies to plants such as Cotton as well as to animals).

Xyth

Aug 15, 2011, 12:02 AM

But I thought you were planning on adding Brazil, so how will you work that out? Brazil's independence from Portugal came in 1822, later than America's independence from Britain.

I'm thinking of adding Brazil the region/culture, not Brazil the nation-state. It's just a concept at this stage, I need to do more research first and that's not a priority right now.

I really like the changes you've made to the early tech tree.
I hope you won't think me presumptuous if I suggest a few more tweaks in the same direction.
I've attached a copy of my proposed changes to this post.
I don't have much time this afternoon so I'll just give a brief summary:

Your proposal is very similar to an alternate version I came up with when experimenting. Some aspects I quite like, others I'm not so sure on. I'll experiment some more when I finish with the Medieval/Renaissance. A few comments:

Carving leads to Pottery and Archery. The three most important early game technologies - Agriculture, Pastoralism, and Mining - have no prerequisite. Note that Agriculture and Pastoralism lead to Property and the Monarchy civic, so it is doubly important that no civilization has an advantage in that race.

I can see the value in making Pastoralism have no prerequisite but I don't think it's appropriate for Mining. I also want each of the 'stone age' starting techs to lead to just one other tech otherwise the choice becomes an advantage in itself.

Nazca Lines have been recast as the Incan Unique Wonder, replacing the National Monument. (Their current Unique Wonder, Machu Picchu, is woefully inadequate. It was not only a residence of kings; it was a city in its own right. That's why it is included on the Incan city list; it makes no sense to "build Machu Picchu" in Tiwanaku, for instance.)

In place of the Nazca Lines, a new Wonder from pre-Columbian America has been introduced: the Cliff Palace, built in Mesa Verde by the Anasazi. Effect: -100% city maintenance, +25% food stored (stacks with Granary and Smokehouse)

Machu Picchu was never really a city, it's more like a royal estate. Something similar can be said of a lot of archaeological sites though so it's really a case of ensuring we're not using such a site as both a city or wonder and that we're reasonably internally consistent. The Incan citylist is not one I've reviewed yet and I'm inclined to remove Machu Picchu from it. There's no art for the Cliff Palace and to be honest that's just as much a candidate for 'city' as Machu Picchu is.

I have art for the Nazca Lines and I think they fit the criteria for world wonder perfectly.

Astronomy has been renamed Cartography. It enables Open Borders and centres the World Map.

Not finalized yet but I'll probably be adding Cartography to the Medieval/Renaissance era.

Whaling is now in its proper place in the tech tree: the Japanese, the Norwegians, and the Inuit (among others) hunted whales in the Ancient Era.

They did but only in coastal waters. Whales and Whaling Boats in BTS and HR require ocean. I'm not sure there's any benefit in changing that.

Baths are left at Medicine; there are plenty of health buildings in the Ancient Era already.

Agreed. I'll leave it at Medicine and crosslink Plumbing.

I much prefer the name Sailing (which makes sense for Work Boats and trade over rivers) to Boating (which implies a recreational activity.)

I reverted it to Sailing already, I didn't like Boating either. I forgot to update the chart though.

Likewise, I prefer Pastoralism (or Animal Husbandry) to Domestication (which applies to plants such as Cotton as well as to animals).

Yeah, Domestication is a little ambiguous. I've no problem changing it back.

Azoth

Aug 16, 2011, 09:07 PM

Your proposal is very similar to an alternate version I came up with when experimenting. Some aspects I quite like, others I'm not so sure on. I'll experiment some more when I finish with the Medieval/Renaissance.

What do you think of the minor changes: moving Spearmen to Copper Working, Horsemen to Employment, Wineries to Pottery, and Granaries to Agriculture?
And the major one: replacing Textiles with Archery and moving Weavers to a later era?

I can see the value in making Pastoralism have no prerequisite but I don't think it's appropriate for Mining. I also want each of the 'stone age' starting techs to lead to just one other tech otherwise the choice becomes an advantage in itself.

So long as Pastoralism is a prerequisite to Property, it should have no prerequisites of its own. As for Carving: it makes sense as a prerequisite to all of Archery, Mining, and Pottery. Hunting takes care of Archery; and of the other two, I'd rather that Mining stand alone. One reason is that Carving cheapens the Creative trait. Creative leaders should be able to skip Monuments and the Carving technology in the opening turns, but they can't if it leads to Mining.

Machu Picchu was never really a city, it's more like a royal estate. Something similar can be said of a lot of archaeological sites though so it's really a case of ensuring we're not using such a site as both a city or wonder and that we're reasonably internally consistent. The Incan citylist is not one I've reviewed yet and I'm inclined to remove Machu Picchu from it.

Alternatively, you could keep Machu Picchu on the city list and change the name of the Unique Wonder to match one of the primary buildings on the estate: the Temple of the Sun. I imagine Incan city names are hard to come by as it is.

I have art for the Nazca Lines and I think they fit the criteria for world wonder perfectly.

They certainly do; the only question is: what bonus should they provide? It's a difficult question, since we don't know what purpose the figures served. One option is to give the Nazca Lines the Stonehenge bonus: a free Monument in every city. Stonehenge can then be recast as the Druidic shrine, in place of the mythical "Pool of Balance." Alternatively, you could give the Nazca Lines the old Moai Statues bonus: +1 hammer on coast tiles. It's certainly as good a candidate as any.

Not finalized yet but I'll probably be adding Cartography to the Medieval/Renaissance era.

Fair enough. I still think Astronomy is a poor fit as an Ancient Era tech. The ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Indians, Mayans, etc. took some fairly accurate measurements of the orbits of various heavenly bodies but they still regarded these as manifestations of the gods and had little direct knowledge of the subject of their investigations. True celestial navigation was not possible until the early Renaissance, when Arabs and Europeans invented the sextant to determine longitude. Perhaps Astrology would be a better name?

They did but only in coastal waters. Whales and Whaling Boats in BTS and HR require ocean. I'm not sure there's any benefit in changing that.

As it stands, Whales are the last resource to be unlocked and the first resource to become obsolete. And the "Fishing Boats" improvement makes little sense for Seals and Amber: Seals are hunted, Amber is scavenged. Recasting the "Whaling Boats" improvement as a "Sea Harvest," available in the Ancient Era, fixes those problems.

Xyth

Aug 16, 2011, 10:33 PM

moving Spearmen to Copper Working

This makes sense but I'd need to see where everything else ends up first.

Horsemen to Employment

What's your rationale for this one?

Wineries to Pottery, and Granaries to Agriculture?

Not so keen on this one as it makes Agriculture too important. Property is very desirable for Monarchy, I don't think placing both the Granary and the Smokehouse enroute to it is a good idea.

And the major one: replacing Textiles with Archery and moving Weavers to a later era?

I'm holding off on any decision here until I work out what I'm doing about happiness/health possibly being a bit too easy to manage. Feedback on that issue is most welcome.

Alternatively, you could keep Machu Picchu on the city list and change the name of the Unique Wonder to match one of the primary buildings on the estate: the Temple of the Sun. I imagine Incan city names are hard to come by as it is.

For now I'll wait until I review the Incan citylist. Not likely to be in 0.9.5.

They certainly do; the only question is: what bonus should they provide? It's a difficult question, since we don't know what purpose the figures served. One option is to give the Nazca Lines the Stonehenge bonus: a free Monument in every city. Stonehenge can then be recast as the Druidic shrine, in place of the mythical "Pool of Balance." Alternatively, you could give the Nazca Lines the old Moai Statues bonus: +1 hammer on coast tiles. It's certainly as good a candidate as any.

I don't want Stonehenge as the Druidic shrine. It's not Celtic or Druidic in origin and its easy to rename the Pool of Balance to something more appropriate. It's a fairly generic graphic, I just need to do some research.

Deciding on a bonus for the Nazca lines is tricky for sure but I'm sure we'll come up with something appropriate.

Fair enough. I still think Astronomy is a poor fit as an Ancient Era tech. The ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Indians, Mayans, etc. took some fairly accurate measurements of the orbits of various heavenly bodies but they still regarded these as manifestations of the gods and had little direct knowledge of the subject of their investigations. True celestial navigation was not possible until the early Renaissance, when Arabs and Europeans invented the sextant to determine longitude. Perhaps Astrology would be a better name?

It depends if I add Astronomy as a tech to the Medieval/Renaissance era or not. Ideally it would be there and I've made a mockup where it fits reasonably well. The issue is that now there is nothing for Physics/Mechanics to unlock. Certainly no room for an Optics tech.

As it stands, Whales are the last resource to be unlocked and the first resource to become obsolete. And the "Fishing Boats" improvement makes little sense for Seals and Amber: Seals are hunted, Amber is scavenged. Recasting the "Whaling Boats" improvement as a "Sea Harvest," available in the Ancient Era, fixes those problems.

Any decision on this will need to wait til I finalize what's happening with deep ocean. I've taken a break from working on that for a bit.

Azoth

Aug 16, 2011, 11:37 PM

What's your rationale for this one?

It reduces "clumping" in the tech tree. Don't get me wrong: a dedicated military branch is a great for flavour. But it grows a bit stale when a single technology, Iron Working, unlocks both a unit and its counter, namely Swordsmen and Horsemen. As it happens, distributing units across the tech tree is something BtS does particularly well. Macemen, Crossbowmen, Knights, and Pikemen are unlocked at varying points in the Medieval Era - at Civil Service, Machinery, Guilds, and Engineering, respectively - though they all require resources from the bottom military branch of the tech tree. Similarly, Horsemen could be unlocked at Employment but would still require Riding and either Copper or Iron.

It depends if I add Astronomy as a tech to the Medieval/Renaissance era or not. Ideally it would be there and I've made a mockup where it fits reasonably well. The issue is that now there is nothing for Physics/Mechanics to unlock. Certainly no room for an Optics tech.

Depending on where Physics/Mechanics goes, it could unlock the Trebuchet or Ballista. (Crossbowmen would stay at Machinery and Siege Towers would stay at Siegecraft.) Civic Squares could be moved back from Nationalism to Clockwork, if you choose to include it. Meanwhile, Optics and (Renaissance Era) Astronomy would allow for a more staggered approach to Naval units. Galleons, Privateers, Frigates, and Ships of the Line shouldn't all arrive at Charter.

Not so keen on this one as it makes Agriculture too important. Property is very desirable for Monarchy, I don't think placing both the Granary and the Smokehouse enroute to it is a good idea.

Now that the Granary has been reduced to 25% food stored, it is no longer an automatic first build in all cities. I routinely build a Monument, Cemetery, Kiln, Tanner, Library, even a Theatre, before I bother with a Granary or Smokehouse. So I don't think it would be too strong. In fact, I rather like the symmetry between Agriculture-Farm-Granary and Pastoralism-Pasture-Smokehouse. It also helps reduce clumping: why unlock both the Kiln and Granary at Pottery; both the Plantation and Winery at Calendar?

I'm holding off on any decision here until I work out what I'm doing about happiness/health possibly being a bit too easy to manage. Feedback on that issue is most welcome.

I'll be posting some thoughts on the new resources soon. I think toning down some the new resource buildings (the Tanner, Weaver, Smokehouse, Tavern, etc.) will help. Beyond that, I'm not sure there's much you can do. Happiness is relatively easy to manage in BtS as well, at least once you reach Calendar and Monarchy in the Classical Era; and health doesn't really become a problem until the Industrial Era.

Xyth

Aug 17, 2011, 03:47 AM

Depending on where Physics/Mechanics goes, it could unlock the Trebuchet or Ballista. (Crossbowmen would stay at Machinery and Siege Towers would stay at Siegecraft.)

Given Physics/Mechanics is meant to represent Newtonian physics and the likes it's in the Renaissance and much too late for the Ballista/Trebuchet.

Civic Squares could be moved back from Nationalism to Clockwork, if you choose to include it.

I don't think I'll include Clockwork, I think it's covered by Machinery. I've currently shifted the Civic Square to Urban Planning (early medieval). I'll try and get a draft preview posted soon.

Meanwhile, Optics and (Renaissance Era) Astronomy would allow for a more staggered approach to Naval units. Galleons, Privateers, Frigates, and Ships of the Line shouldn't all arrive at Charter.

I definitely want to spread out the Age of Sail ships more. I'm still experimenting with that part of the tree a lot.

Now that the Granary has been reduced to 25% food stored, it is no longer an automatic first build in all cities. I routinely build a Monument, Cemetery, Kiln, Tanner, Library, even a Theatre, before I bother with a Granary or Smokehouse. So I don't think it would be too strong. In fact, I rather like the symmetry between Agriculture-Farm-Granary and Pastoralism-Pasture-Smokehouse. It also helps reduce clumping: why unlock both the Kiln and Granary at Pottery; both the Plantation and Winery at Calendar?

Hmm. I am a sucker for symmetry, I'll consider it.

I'll be posting some thoughts on the new resources soon. I think toning down some the new resource buildings (the Tanner, Weaver, Smokehouse, Tavern, etc.) will help. Beyond that, I'm not sure there's much you can do. Happiness is relatively easy to manage in BtS as well, at least once you reach Calendar and Monarchy in the Classical Era; and health doesn't really become a problem until the Industrial Era.

Those buildings were all designed when resources didn't give happiness/health directly so they certainly need some toning down. It's frustrating that resources can only give happiness/health or % modifiers to yield via buildings. I tried to code other options but it's very hard to reconcile civilization-wide resources with city-only buildings without significant slowdown in turn time. However, what do you think of this as a rough concept:

Weaver
Requires Textiles
Cost: 50
• +1 culture
• +5% commerce from Dye, Cotton, Flax, Silk, Sheep

Basically, a modifier that increases the more types of resources you get, up to a maximum of 25%. Not all the buildings in question suit such a change of course but do you think something like this is worth pursuing?

Azoth

Aug 23, 2011, 11:11 AM

Xyth

Aug 23, 2011, 08:40 PM

Just a quick comment.
In BtS, Mathematics provides +50% hammers from forest chops.
It's a bonus that's missing from from the HR tech tree.
And it could provide a small boost to any number of technologies that might need one.

That got dropped to help discourage forest clearing as essential early game strategy. Lots of changes in this area since then but I'm still not sure it's needed. Maybe later in the game though?

Azoth

Aug 25, 2011, 10:24 PM

That got dropped to help discourage forest clearing as essential early game strategy. Lots of changes in this area since then but I'm still not sure it's needed. Maybe later in the game though?

I'm not sure it's needed, either.
But, as I say, it could add a little something to a new tech that you feel doesn't do quite enough.

KaneofEgypt

Sep 03, 2011, 10:16 AM

Xyth

Sep 03, 2011, 07:21 PM

Why exactly is there a Chuck Norris quote on steel working? Earlier you discussed how you would rather not have a somewhat meaningful anonymous quote on sailing, so how does Chuck Norris make the cut?:crazyeye:

Sailing and Seafaring are different techs for 0.9.5, both quotes are being used. I was originally wanting to change it because the tech was about boats that are rowed, not sailed. That's changed now.

The Steel Working quote is a good one that suits the tech very well in my opinion (it unlocks Warrior Code as well as the Heavy Foot/Horseman). I was rather surprised to discover that it was made by Chuck Norris. Somewhat amusing but doesn't really change the gist of the quote. I've not found any other quotes that work as well.

Speaking of quotes though, I'd love some help finding suitable quotes for some of the new (or returning) techs in 0.9.5:

• Carving
• Ceremonial Burial
• Leather Working
• Plumbing
• Alchemy
• Urban Planning
• Cartography
• Optics (default one is too narrow in definition)
• Economics (its default quote is shifting to Finance, which is Banking renamed)

Archery and Civil Service are returning too but I think their default quotes are good enough.

There'll be a few more added to this list once I solve how I want to handle the Age of Sail. Any one got any suggestions for a new tech to unlock the Ship-of-the-Line?
I'm not sure I'm going to have enough time to make any widespread changes to the Industrial or Modern trees for 0.9.5 sadly, though I am going to try and shift Labour Unions later at least.

Azoth

Sep 03, 2011, 11:41 PM

How about this for starters?

Carving
I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. -Michelangelo

Ceremonial Burial
A tomb now suffices him for whom the whole world was not sufficient. -epitaph for Alexander the Great

Leather Working
'Tis the same to him who wears a shoe, as if the whole earth were covered in leather. -Persian proverb

Sailing
Current: You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails. -Anonymous
Suggested: Hoist up sail while the gale doth last. Tide and wind stay no man's pleasure. -Robert Southwell

Seafaring
He who commands the sea has command of everything. -Themistocles

Plumbing
The society which scorns excellence in plumbing and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water. -John W Gardner

Cartography
Map me no maps, sir, my head is a map, a map of the whole world. -Henry Fielding

Azoth

Sep 06, 2011, 06:10 PM

Some more quotes:

Agriculture
Current: Oh farmers, pray that your summers be wet and your winters clear. -Virgil
Suggested: Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of civilization. -Daniel Webster

While searching for other quotes, I found this. Webster is the better fit but you can keep Virgil if you prefer his poetry.

Civil Service
Current: The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy. -Anonymous
Suggested: Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy. -Franz Kafka

I do not like anonymous quotes. More often than not, they are not quotes at all. In this case, Kafka makes much the same point but with better imagery.

Optics
Current: One doesn't discover new lands without losing sight of the shore. -Andre Gide
Suggested: We do not see the lens through which we look. -Ruth Benedict

This was the best I could find. Unfortunately, it might be a little too broad (Benedict, an anthropologist, is speaking about the metaphorical lens through which we view other peoples) but the point is sound.

Finance (formerly Banking)
Current: Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies. -Thomas Jefferson
Suggested: No change.

Economics
Current: Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. -Albert Einstein
Suggested: The price of any commodity rises and falls by the proportion of the number of buyers and sellers. -John Locke

Frankly, the Thomas Jefferson quote is more relevant than ever now that Banking has been renamed Finance, particularly in light of the current global financial crisis. The Einstein quote can stay at Economics, though it is clearly tongue-in-cheek; if you prefer, you could replace it with the Locke quote, one of the first formulations of the law of supply and demand.

On a separate note, you may want to rename 'Cultivation' just as you did 'Banking.' I suggest 'Horticulture' as its new name.

Radar
Current: We tend to pay attention to that which is most current on our radar screen. -Warren Rudman
Suggested: Vision is the art of seeing things invisible. -Jonathan Swift

I prefer the subtle metaphor to the mundane observation.

Globalization
Original: It has been said that arguing against globalization is like arguing against the laws of gravity. -Kofi Annan
Current: The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image of a global village. -Marshall McLuhan
Suggested: I am a citizen of the world. -Diogenes of Sinope

Networks
Current: One of the problems the Internet has introduced is that in this electronic village, all the village idiots have access. -Peter Nelson
Suggested: The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image of a global village. -Marshall McLuhan

I noticed that the Marshall McLuhan quote refers to electronic interdependence so I thought it would be a better fit for Networks. Globalization can have Diogenes' bold statement, "I am a citizen of the world."

Future Tech
Current: The future will be better tomorrow. -Dan Quayle
Optimistic: What has the future in store for this strange being, born of a breath, of perishable tissue, yet immortal, with his powers fearful and divine? -Nikola Tesla
Pessimistic: Can you tell me, in a world flagrant with the failures of civilization, what there is particularly immortal about yours? -G.K. Chesterton

Anything is better than Quayle.

Finally, you may wish to reconsider the Alchemy technology. By its own standards, alchemy was a fantasy, a fraud, and a failure; there never was a philosopher's stone, a universal solvent, an elixir of life. It is true that some of the alchemists' methods, instruments, and terminology were adapted for use in the hard sciences, but that was mere convenience. There are many more useful and successful sciences worthy of inclusion: Anatomy, Botany, Clockwork, or Mechanics for the Medieval Era; and Atomic Theory, Geology, Meteorology, or Surgery for the Renaissance Era. What would the Alchemy technology unlock, anyway?

Simon_Jester

Sep 07, 2011, 12:16 AM

On the Alchemy tech, yeah, I'm not exactly sure how it fits into the tree and what it triggers. I could comment better if I did.

Xyth

Sep 08, 2011, 01:29 AM

Thanks for the quotes, most of those work well. I'll use all but Civil Service (original is sarcastic but the suggested one is too vitriolic).

On a separate note, you may want to rename 'Cultivation' just as you did 'Banking.' I suggest 'Horticulture' as its new name.

I may be splitting Cultivation into 2 separate agricultural techs, still working on that section to see what fits.

Finally, you may wish to reconsider the Alchemy technology. By its own standards, alchemy was a fantasy, a fraud, and a failure; there never was a philosopher's stone, a universal solvent, an elixir of life. It is true that some of the alchemists' methods, instruments, and terminology were adapted for use in the hard sciences, but that was mere convenience. There are many more useful and successful sciences worthy of inclusion: Anatomy, Botany, Clockwork, or Mechanics for the Medieval Era; and Atomic Theory, Geology, Meteorology, or Surgery for the Renaissance Era. What would the Alchemy technology unlock, anyway?

If it goes in it would be a Classical tech, replacing Metal Casting. It would require Iron Working and Medicine (via crosslink) and be necessary for Steel Working. For a while I was experimenting with it unlocking a redesigned Distillery but that didn't work so the tech may be dropped altogether.

Azoth

Sep 13, 2011, 12:22 PM

Ever more quotes:

Aviation
Current: Aviation is proof that given the will we have the capacity to do the impossible. -Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
Suggested: The globe will be linked by flight and nations so knit together they will grow to be neighbours. What railways have done for nations, airways will do for the world. -Claude Grahame-White

Rickenbacker is vague; Grahame-White offers the better description of aviation. If her quote is too long, you can cut the first sentence.

Computers
Current: Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window. -Steve Wozniak
Suggested: I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -Isaac Asimov

A good fit for Asimov.

Space Flight
Current: The Earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind cannot stay in the cradle forever. -Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Suggested: That's one small step for man; one giant leap for humanity. -Neil Armstrong

Satellites
Current: Beep…beep…beep…beep… -Sputnik I
Suggested: The earth is the cradle of the mind but one cannot eternally live in a cradle. -Konstantin Tsiolkovsky

For a technology that unlocks the Apollo Program, the Armstrong quote is too good to pass up. Tsiolkovsky is moved to Satellites. I prefer the BtS version of the quote; it is both more elegant and closer to the original Russian. As for Sputnik, I'm sorry, but a series of beeps do not a quote make.

Jet Propulsion
Current: Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. -Jon Benfield
Suggested: Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth and danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings. -John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

Another quote borrowed from BtS. I prefer the first two lines, as above, to the first and last lines, as follows:
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth - Put out my hand and touched the face of God. -John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

Robotics
Current: The real problem is not whether machines think, but whether men do. -B.F. Skinner
Suggested: From the moment when the machine first made its appearance it was clear to all thinking people that the need for human drudgery, and therefore to a great extent for human inequality, had disappeared. -George Orwell

Artificial Intelligence
Current: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that. -HAL
Suggested: The real problem is not whether machines think, but whether men do. -B.F. Skinner

B.F. Skinner speaks directly to Artificial Intelligence. (HAL is unfortunately meaningless to anyone unfamiliar with the source material.) So I suggest a George Orwell quote for Robotics.

Fibre Optics
Current: The speed of light does not merely transform the world. It becomes the world. Globalization operates at the speed of light. -Paul Virilio
Suggested: Today, commerce rolls not just on asphalt highways but on the information highway. -Al Gore

The "information highway" was the catchphrase for the proposed global fibre optics network in the 1980s and 1990s.

Nanotechnology
Current: Nanotechnology is manufacturing with atoms. -William Powell
Suggested: Fill the fixed mind with all your toys! As thick and numberless As the gay motes that people the sunbeams. -John Milton

Good nanotechnology quotes are hard to come by. If you prefer something more direct, I suggest:
As we move to a renaissance in nanotech, matter becomes code. -Steve Jurvetson

Simon_Jester

Sep 14, 2011, 02:25 AM

I'm sorry, my attempts to write civilopedia entries have largely stalled. A few more:

CHARTER
The earliest intercontinental explorers were part of government-funded expeditions, as with Zheng He, Christopher Columbus, and Bartholomew Diaz. Soon it became clear that there were vast riches to be had from trade in luxury goods with remote lands, and where long range seafaring continued to thrive, private enterprise soon followed.

For the people of the time, a trip from Europe to trade for spices, gems, silk and other precious goods in Asia was immensely time-consuming, requiring the most advanced ships and years of time and effort by a crew of skilled sailors. Quite a few ships that attempted the voyage never made it back, being destroyed by storms or hostile locals over the tens of thousands of kilometers of sea voyage.

The risks involved created a powerful incentive to limit the financial hazards of the trip- any one merchant who invested in such an expedition might be ruined if something went wrong. Groups of wealthy men began to organize 'companies-' bands that would pool their resources and share the costs of the long, immensely profitable trips.

Some of these companies were able to secure royal guarantees from their home nations of exclusive trading rights- early examples include the English, Dutch, and French East India Companies. Over time, these organizations became extremely powerful, as the first ancestors of the modern multinational corporation.

FIREARMS

In its first centuries, gunpowder was too unstable and metallurgy too crude for the new explosive mix to be used for applications other than demolitions, fireworks, and large, heavily overbuilt artillery pieces. But with advances in metalworking in the 15th and 16th centuries CE, it became possible to create man-portable gunpowder weapons, which began to supplement and then to replace earlier ranged weapons such as the bow, crossbow, and sling.

By the 17th century, the world's most modern armies relied in large part on blocks of musket-armed infantry, often supported by pike units to keep cavalry from running down the musketeers while they reloaded their clumsy weapons. The pike units were removed entirely with the development of the bayonet, and ever since that era infantry combat has been dominated by the role of the gun and advances in firearms technology.

Even though early firearms were little if any deadlier than a good bow on average, they triggered a revolution in warfare. Firearms were easy to learn to use, and incredibly easy to mass produce compared to the cost of a suit of "bullet proof" steel armor. This helped drive the last nails into the coffin of heavily armored shock cavalry in Europe, ended the dominance of nomadic horse-archer cultures in Asia, and triggered a shift towards mass armies recruited from among the populace, ultimately paving the way for the revolutionary leveé en masse of the Napoleonic French.

NUCLEAR POWER

The greatest peacetime use of the power of the atomic nucleus is in nuclear reactors. In the early days after the discovery of atomic fission, this was a subject of great hope and optimism- the ideal was expressed that nuclear power would make Early expectations that atomic energy would make electricity "too cheap to meter."

A nuclear reactor consists of a number of 'fuel rods' or 'fuel pellets' made up of fissile materials, kept at a concentration below that needed for a critical mass. Thus, the chain reaction cannot run away as in a nuclear bomb, and simply keeps the fuel running at a high temperature, steadily heated by rapid fission of the uranium. The heat is used to power turbines through a variety of media- pressurized water, steam, or liquid sodium, for instance; the turbines power electric generators.

Design of a nuclear reactor is extremely challenging. The radiation environment inside the reactor core is intense, and all substances used inside the reactor must be chosen with an eye to their resistance and behavior when faced with radioactive bombardment of neutrons. Beyond this, there are also safety concerns- a nuclear reactor contains enough radioactive materials to contaminate a large area, if those materials were spread across the landscape.

Early plant designs, dating to the 1950s, often had serious safety problems associated with the designs. Since then, the nuclear industry has learned much, but its tracks are dogged by anti-nuclear advocates opposed to the use of nuclear energy. This opposition points to nuclear accidents at Chernobyl and Fukushima and questions whether modern plants are truly safe from such disasters; they also object to the fact that nuclear reactors generate radioactive waste which remains dangerous to human life for thousands of years and must be stored under special conditions.

Supporters of nuclear power reply that there are viable ways to store the waste safely, but the controversy continues to rage. The dream of power "too cheap to meter" has foundered on this, along with a host of practical issues that come with designing the heavily reinforced, disaster-resistant facilities required for the reactor and its wastes.

Xyth

Sep 16, 2011, 12:57 AM

Ever more quotes:

I like all of those.

I'm sorry, my attempts to write civilopedia entries have largely stalled. A few more:

No worries. These are excellent, as always.

Simon_Jester

Sep 19, 2011, 12:40 AM

NUCLEAR WEAPONS

When an atomic nucleus undergoes fission, it splits into two smaller nuclei and a spray of single subatomic particles, including neutrons and X-ray photons. Since the impact of a neutron can itself cause a fission reaction, if enough atoms which can undergo fission ("fissile" atoms) are concentrated in the same place, they will begin to spontaneously experience a higher and higher rate of fission. As the concentration increases past a threshold known as "critical mass," the rate of fission becomes so high that a large fraction of the fissile material will undergo fission at once, releasing extremely large amounts of energy, mostly in the form of X-rays.

The discovery of atomic fission in 1938 as a result of chemical assays of uranium samples came during the runup to the largest war in the history of the world. All the major powers of the age were mobilizing the full resources of science and industry to prevail in the coming conflict. Under the circumstances, when theoretical physicists determined that under some conditions fission could be used to make powerful weapons, the development of these weapons became inevitable.

Nuclear weapons rely mainly on fission as a source of massive, instantaneous energy release- fusion or "H-bombs" actually use the fusion stage as a secondary booster, to enhance the efficiency of the fission reaction more than anything else. A nuclear device contains enough fissile material (some uranium isotopes, or plutonium-239) to release trillions of joules of energy, or even quadrillions at the extreme upper limit. This energy, released as X-rays that are absorbed by the device's surroundings, creates a roughly spherical zone of superheated matter called a "nuclear fireball," which is roughly as hot as the interior of the sun. The intensity of light and heat from the fireball is enough to literally blind the unprotected eye- often permanently.

The effects propagate outward in the form of a "blast wave-" a zone of high pressure air pushed outward from the blast, which exerts pressures on the order of one atmosphere for a large area around the point where the device is initiated. This blast wave can be powerful enough to destroy reinforced buildings at a range of kilometers, and lightly constructed buildings at a range of many kilometers, depending on the yield of the device. Meanwhile, direct heating from the fireball creates a "thermal pulse" which can cause instant third-degree burns at long distances, and ignite flammable materials, often resulting in numerous and intense fires throughout the area targeted by the device. Close in, the heat is sufficient to fuse large ground areas into a field of glass, subsequently broken up and shattered by the blast.

As this devastation goes on, the fireball from a nuclear initiation in atmosphere will tend to rise, creating the characteristic "mushroom cloud" associated with nuclear weapons in the public imagination. The effects on the ground are large enough to lay waste to entire cities, render troop movements practically impossible, and kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, at a single blow.

Perhaps the most sinister, though far from the most lethal, effect of nuclear weapons is radioactive fallout- fission byproducts from the fissile material in the device, and other matter irradiated during the event. When nuclear weapons are set off high in the atmosphere, fallout is relatively mild, but an initiation close to ground level that sucks up material on the ground into the fireball itself to be irradiated can produce much greater levels of fallout.

Some of this fallout is often redeposited in the form of a deadly black rain near Ground Zero, which is very radioactive and highly lethal. The rest spreads out over a large area downwind of the target. The effects of multiple devises are particularly severe in this respect, as for reasons not yet well understood it is common for intense, lethally radioactive 'hot spots' to appear where the fallout patterns from multiple nuclear initiations interact. While most of the land contaminated by fallout is broadly habitable, hot spots may give lethal doses of radiation in a short time, guaranteeing a slow, painful death from radiation sickness.

All the effects of nuclear attacks are made far worse by the fact that the initiations destroy a great deal of infrastructure and first-response assets, making humanitarian relief extremely difficult. Bringing in supplies and caring for the thousands upon thousands of sick and wounded becomes nearly impossible. Long-term effects can be similarly devastating; a nuclear attack powerful enough to destroy a modern nation's ability to make war will predictably ruin its infrastructure and lead to famines and breakdowns of the civilian economy for years to come.

The creation of a nuclear arsenal is a huge industrial undertaking for even an advanced nation- the original Manhattan Project required 1/6 of all electricity produced in the United States during the war years, and a vast influx of money to build a network of secret industrial facilities to produce fissile material and develop bomb designs.

Production of fissiles takes high-end precision machinery which is available from only a handful of sources in the modern world- monitoring of these tools plays a major part in anti-proliferation efforts today. Designing the devices is also a major challenge, even more difficult if they cannot be tested (today, in underground chambers; in the 1940s and 1950s, often in the open air). A nuclear device which is designed improperly will 'fizzle:' it will undergo only partial fission before the energies released blow the device apart, with most of the fissile material being wasted entirely. This is a particularly common problem with the simplified designs created by various third world nations (see the Pakistani and North Korean nuclear programs for reference).

Once created, nuclear weapons can be delivered by missile, air-dropped bomb, or large caliber artillery shell; some nuclear devices have been built in the one-kiloton range which are small enough to be man-portable have been built, though they are awkward and very bulky. Most war plans featuring nuclear weapons rely on the "nuclear triad" of manned bombers (which are good at fighting their way through defenses, and cheap), ICBMs (which are impossible to stop without specialized anti-ballistic missile defenses, but expensive and impossible to call off after launch), and shorter-ranged submarine-launched ballistic missiles (which, like ICBMs, are very hard to stop, but which have the added advantage of being impossible to destroy in a preemptive strike unless the attacker knows exactly where to find the submarine with the missiles).

Since in a nuclear war the nation's leaders might be killed at any time, nuclear weapons are aimed according to pre-set war plans, with the devices being targeted in what is called a "laydown," with the intent of destroying a specific list of targets as efficiently and thoroughly as possible. Targets for a laydown might include the enemy's nuclear launch facilities, command and control centers, transport facilities vital to military mobilization such as ports, railroad marshalling yards, and highway interchanges, airports that could be used to launch bombers, factories which produce components for advanced weapons, and the offices of government agencies that could organize nuclear war or mobilize civil defense to limit the effects of the nuclear attack.

As a rule, cities are not targeted specifically with the intent of killing vast numbers of people, but since so many of the important targets are in or around cities, any nuclear war is sure to destroy many cities and kill tens of millions of people. Civil defense measures can reduce civilian casualties, but never even come close to eliminating them.

Fortunately for mankind, the terrifying power of nuclear weapons is sobering for any sane or intelligent person. Some claim that the rise of nuclear arsenals among the developed nations has actually reduced the odds of war breaking out, because it would be impossible to attack a nuclear-armed country and defeat it without taking terrible damage from nuclear counterattack. Balanced against this is the fear of accidental war- that weapons prepared to launch a counterattack might be fired by mistake, in response to a false alarm. There is also the risk that if nuclear weapons become common in too many nations, political instability might let them fall into the hands of groups irresponsible and deranged enough to try to use them.

Because of this, many countries have political movements devoted to nuclear disarmament, including well organized protest movements such as the one which has been permanently camped outside the residence of the President of the United States since 1982. These movements have had some success- the large nuclear powers have negotiated repeated reductions of their nuclear arsenals from the peak of the Cold War circa 1970. Certain types of weapons have been banned as 'too provocative,' creating the threat of a successful nuclear sneak attack and thus giving the enemy an incentive to strike first out of fear.

But many nuclear devices remain, and some countries continue to pursue expanded nuclear capabilities, for obvious reasons- it's the ultimate deterrent against ordinary invasion.

Simon_Jester

Sep 19, 2011, 12:41 AM

This may be too big- I'm aiming for "educational," as it were, since public awareness of the effects, nature, and use of nuclear weapons is... not great.

Azoth

Sep 23, 2011, 12:17 AM

It has been a busy couple of weeks. I have more thoughts and responses to the Buildings and Terrain threads, but those must wait. In the meantime, here are some more quotes.

Divination
Current: Divine life is in touch with the whole universe on the analogy of the soul's contact with the body. -Muhammed Iqbal
Suggested: Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes also into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche

I have finally found a Divination quote I am happy with. Who better than Nietzsche to capture the gravity, peril, and futility of gazing into the abyss?
He is a much better fit here than at Superconductors; I have another suggestion for that technology, as seen below.

Philosophy
Current: I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. -Aristotle
Suggested: I think, therefore I am. -Rene Descartes

I have always felt that the Aristotle quote does not do philosophy justice; it seems to equate philosophy with conformity or, at worst, obedience.
By contrast, Descartes' simple statement places philosophy at the heart of human life. And I do not think it has grown stale from use.

Metal Casting
Current: And them that take the sword shall perish by the sword. -The Bible, Matthew
Suggested: The crucible is for silver and the furnace for gold, And each is tested by the praise accorded him. -The Bible, Proverbs

A quote that actually references metal casting: imagine that.

Machinery
Original: A god from the machine. -Menander
Current: We are becoming the servants in thought, as in action, of the machine we have created to serve us. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Suggested: Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. -Archimedes

Automation
Current: Just because it's automatic doesn't mean it works. -Daniel J. Bernstein
Suggested: We are becoming the servants in thought, as in action, of the machine we have created to serve us. -John Kenneth Galbraith

After some thought, I decided the Galbraith quote was too modern for Machinery. I suggest you move it to Automation and install Archimedes in its place.

Metallurgy
Current: There never was a good knife made of bad steel. -Benjamin Franklin
Suggested: I wear the chains I forged in life. -Charles Dickens

Metallurgy was another hard find. The Dickens quotes works from a number of angles, though it's not as direct as my original suggestion:
The purest ore is produced from the hottest furnace; the brightest thunderbolt is elicited from the darkest storm. -Charles Caleb Colton

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: You swallow two or three half-gramme tablets, and there you are. You can carry at least half your morality about in a bottle. -Aldous Huxley

The Pharmaceuticals quote has been under discussion a number of times now.
My latest suggestion comes from Brave New World; it is a description of the fictional wonder drug, soma.

Here are some other quotes from the same source:
Was and will make me ill, I take a gram and only am. -Aldous Huxley
The perfect drug. Euphoric, narcotic, pleasantly hallucinant. All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects. -Aldous Huxley
Half a gramme for a half-holiday, a gramme for a weekend, two grammes for a trip to the gorgeous East, three for a dark eternity on the moon. -Aldous Huxley

Anything catch your eye?

Superconductors
Current: What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Suggested: Is it a fact - or have I dreamt it - that, by means of electricity, the world of matter has become a great nerve, vibrating thousands of miles in a breathless point of time? -Nathaniel Hawthorne

A quote with the words "power" and "resistance" is not automatically relevant to Superconductors. Hawthorne is the better pick.

Particle Physics
Current: If anybody says he can think of quantum physics without getting giddy, that only shows he has not understood the first thing about them. -Niels Bohr
Suggested: By convention, sweet; by convention, bitter; by convention, colour; but, in reality, atoms and the void. -Democritus

I am particularly pleased with this quote. Democritus coined the term atom and modern science retained the word.
Particle physics does indeed discard convention and investigate "atoms and the void" in its quest for a Theory of Everything.

Xyth

Sep 23, 2011, 11:07 PM

This may be too big- I'm aiming for "educational," as it were, since public awareness of the effects, nature, and use of nuclear weapons is... not great.

Long but good. We could possibly split it between the tech and unit entries but I'm happy to use it as is too.

It has been a busy couple of weeks.

Very busy month for me, haven't got as much done on 0.9.5 as I hoped. Getting there slowly but surely though.

In the meantime, here are some more quotes.

Using Philosophy, Metal Casting, Machinery, Automation, Superconductors. Your original Metallurgy suggestion has won me over too. The Democritus quote might be better for Atomic Physics if that tech returns but I'll use it for Particle Physics in the meantime. I still prefer the Ian Anderson quote for Divination. As for Pharmaceuticals I think the 'perfect drug' one is probably the best of the bunch but still not suitable I'm afraid.

I've attached a diagram showing the changes I've made to the tech tree for 0.9.5. Entirely new stuff is in red but there've been quite a few shuffles and changes in the Ancient, Medieval and Renaissance eras that are not marked by colour. Other than finding a new home for Labour Unions I probably won't make many changes to the later tree until 0.9.6. A few notes:

• Crosslinks are marked on the diagram but there's probably a few more that need to be added still
• Grenadier, Sistine Chapel, Versailles and a few other odds and ends are not placed yet
• The Age of Sail is spaced out much better and starts earlier
• The Cog and Clipper will be in 0.9.5 if I can get the pre-Industrial naval units to scale more smoothly in strength
• The Mint, Telegraph, Refinery and Medical Lab are just vague concepts at this stage, they won't be in 0.9.5
• I still want to make changes to the bottom rows from Welfare and Refrigeration onwards
• The techs that got removed were Textiles, Fortification, Fealty, Free Artistry, Military Conduct, Formation, Military Science, Military Tradition
• I'll need quotes for Urban Planning, Logistics, Meteorology, and Machine Tools

KaneofEgypt

Sep 24, 2011, 08:57 AM

I noticed that finance allows a mint... what are you going to do with the Malinese UB?

Xyth

Sep 24, 2011, 05:56 PM

I noticed that finance allows a mint... what are you going to do with the Malinese UB?

I'd give them a new UB, most likely something to do with Jali/Griots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griot), probably a Theatre or School replacement. The Mint is an idea I have for a new National Wonder, it probably won't be in 0.9.5 though.

Simon_Jester

Sep 25, 2011, 11:00 PM

Quotes:

LOGISTICS
"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
- Gen. George S. Patton, US Army

METEOROLOGY
The trouble with weather forecasting is that it's right too often for us to ignore it and wrong too often for us to rely on it.
-Patrick Young

URBAN PLANNING...

Um, what era are you fitting it in? Might want to pick something era-appropriate.

Azoth

Sep 26, 2011, 11:31 PM

I have been tinkering with the new tech tree for the past few days.

On the whole, I much prefer it over the current version.
In particular, I like the four balanced starting technologies, the updated Medieval/Renaissance military branch, and the expanded Age of Sail.
I also think the new Archery, Leather Working, Plumbing, Civil Service, Urban Planning, Cartography, Finance, Logistics, and Meteorology technologies work very well.

However, some issues remain to be settled.
Quite a few units become obsolete a mere one or two technologies after they are unlocked. Trebuchets and Siege Towers are a prime example.
There is also evidence of "clumping": some technologies have too many bonuses while other equally important technologies have too few.
Furthermore, I am not sold on the new Machine Tools technology: the concept is already covered by Replaceable Parts, together with some combination of Machinery, Electronics, and Automation.

I hope to tackle these issues in my second draft.
I don't plan to alter the basic framework of the new tech much, except to remove Machine Tools and toss Fortification back in; and replace the redundant Welfare technology with Geology.
I do plan to redistribute some bonuses and find a place for those remaining odds and ends. Stay tuned.

Simon_Jester

Sep 27, 2011, 10:56 PM

I'd argue that Machine Tools plays a reasonable role; it represents the transitional phase between the early Industrial Revolution (low-pressure steam and watermills) and the fully organized mass-production factories that characterized the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Advances in the human ability to make precise, reliable machinery have played a huge role in the evolution of most other fields of 'hard' technology, and have had a lot of secondary effects in terms of social technology. I don't think it's unreasonable that we see several techs devoted to advances in machine technology spread out across the tree, any more than it's unreasonable that we see several technologies devoted to advances in farming techniques

Xyth

Sep 28, 2011, 01:54 AM

URBAN PLANNING...

Um, what era are you fitting it in? Might want to pick something era-appropriate.

Early medieval. Thanks for those quotes.

Quite a few units become obsolete a mere one or two technologies after they are unlocked. Trebuchets and Siege Towers are a prime example.

In every case there is (or will be) a crosslink to space them out better. In the case of Gunpowder, I had not decided on a crosslink yet when I made the chart. The main contender is Civil Service; with this the Siege Tower and Trebuchet will require 28 techs and the Bombard will require 42 techs.

I've found "number of techs required to unlock" to be the most reliable way to spread units and such but it can be quite tricky to measure from a chart. Now that I have the changes in game it's much easier. What other units are you concerned about?

There is also evidence of "clumping": some technologies have too many bonuses while other equally important technologies have too few.

Yeah, there's still some 'declumping to do'.

Furthermore, I am not sold on the new Machine Tools technology: the concept is already covered by Replaceable Parts, together with some combination of Machinery, Electronics, and Automation.

My thinking was that Replaceable Parts represents the concept and initial small scale production in specifics areas, weaponry in particular. Machine Tools represents the the development of the concept and tools beyond their initial scope and into the wider economy. As Simon says, historically there's quite the time and technology gap between replaceable parts and full-blown powered assembly lines. Perhaps 'Mass Production' is a more suitable name?

Btw, Automation is not a tech I'm happy with. It was originally 'Automobiles' but got shuffled around trying to fit everything together and lost a lot of its meaning in the process. It will probably be redesigned or removed when I eventually get to reviewing that part of the tree.

I don't plan to alter the basic framework of the new tech much, except to remove Machine Tools and toss Fortification back in; and replace the redundant Welfare technology with Geology.

Geology is a tech that I've never managed to fit in to my satisfaction, I'm interested to see what your ideas for it are. What would it unlock? I had it revealing Coal and Oil.

I don't think it's unreasonable that we see several techs devoted to advances in machine technology spread out across the tree, any more than it's unreasonable that we see several technologies devoted to advances in farming techniques

I never did end up splitting Cultivation into better specified agricultural techs, which is a shame.

ripple01

Sep 28, 2011, 07:09 AM

Xyth,

I have been working on my own mod in a similar vein to yours off and on for about 4-5 years now. I have borrowed ideas, etc. from you and other modders and added in some of my own. I have posted a pretty much complete tech tree from my upcoming mod and wanted to point you to it in case you wanted to take any ideas from it. If you have any questions, let me know.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10923122&postcount=418

Azoth

Sep 28, 2011, 10:34 AM

Well, I've attached a revised tech tree to this post.

My focus has been:

to redistribute bonuses more evenly across the tech tree, such that each technology is worthwhile on its own terms,
in particular, to link World Wonders to the most appropriate technology and time period;
to provide for a smoother progression of military units; and
to present some ideas for new Wonders and Corporations.

Changes in the position of existing technologies, bonuses, and crosslinks are marked in blue.
New technologies, bonuses, and crosslinks are marked in green.

Technologies

Cultivation has been renamed Horticulture. It is the proper name for the technology, just as Finance is for Banking.
Civil Liberties has been renamed Liberalism, to match the other -isms in that branch. Liberalism is a philosophy that guarantees individual liberties; the liberties themselves are a consequence of liberal thought.
Welfare has been replaced with Geology. It requires Sanitation and Scientific Method, and leads to Ecology and Steam Power.
Fortification has been reintroduced. It requires Engineering, and leads to Architecture and Land Tenure. As a result, Architecture, Urban Planning, Gunpowder, and Firearms have shifted forward. Finance and Logistics have been moved to better positions: between Horticulture and Economics, and Siegecraft and Logistics, respectively. Machine Tools has been cut.

Links
The following new crosslinks have been added:

Iron Working --> Compass
Engineering --> Civil Service
Civil Service --> Patronage
Education --> Gunpowder
Siegecraft --> Physics
Constitution --> Charter
Liberalism --> Journalism
Physics --> Rifling

Two direct links, Calendar --> Oratory and Guilds --> Compass, have been cut.
Compass is now a "floating" technology with two crosslinks and no direct links: a prime Great Person lightbulb target.

Bonuses

Each of the Age of Sail technologies - Compass, Optics, Cartography, Meteorology, and Charter - unlocks a unit and a second bonus.
Redesigned Wells that allow irrigation on adjacent tiles move from Mining all the way to Geology. Tapping into natural aquifers to enable irrigation works in remote locations was not possible until the Renaissance.
Accordingly, the "Farms spread Irrigation" is available earlier, at Horticulture, while +1 food on Farms is available later, at Biology.
The bonus Great Artist moves to Architecture; the Great Scientist, to Scientific Method. Players must pick and choose which Great Person to pursue. It will be difficult to land both the Great Artist and the Great Prophet at Evangelism; or all three among the Great Scientist, the Great General at Gunpowder, and the Great Merchant at Economics.
As a "dead end" technology with no direct links forward, Liberalism offers a free technology to the first player to complete that branch.

Units

Horsemen are unlocked at Record Keeping. They still require Riding and either Bronze or Iron; but they are now contemporaneous with Horse Archers.
Heavy Horsemen are unlocked at Guilds. On no account should they be available at Steel Working, long before Longbowmen and Pikemen.
Even with crosslinks, the lifespan of Siege Towers and Trebuchets was too short for players that did not research Siegecraft at the earliest opportunity.
Thus, Siege Towers have been moved earlier, to Architecture, while Gunpowder has been shifted forward a column.
The Physics --> Rifling crosslink delays Rifles and Cavalry, leaving room for Musketmen and Cuirassiers at Firearms.
However, players that complete the bottom half of the tech tree first could conceivably skip the musket era and head directly for rifles.
The expanded Age of Sail crowds out Medieval Era ships unless they are available sufficiently early. The Galleass at Gunpowder does not fit the bill.
If the art permits, I suggest you replace it with the Dromon. Trireme --> Dromon --> Frigate --> Ironclad is a suitable progression.

Wonders

Many Wonders have shifted positions. Far too many were clumped around Aesthetics and Architecture. Notably:

The Temple of Artemis requires Priesthood. The Spiral Minaret requires Theology. The Sistine Chapel requires Patronage.
The Temple of Kukulkan requires Law. Much like the Aztec UB, it was a site for sacrifice for the undesirables in society.
Shwedagon Paya requires Philosophy. It was built before most of the classical Greek wonders, during the lifetime of the Buddha.
The Hagia Sophia requires Civil Service. It was retooled and reinvented by several dynasties across the ages.
Angkor Wat requires Constitution. It was not only a temple complex but a capital city and administrative centre.
Versailles requires Finance. It was made possible by modern finance: Louis XIV dedicated eight percent of French tax revenue to its upkeep.
The Eiffel Tower requires Journalism. It was built for the World Fair, popularized by journalism in an age before radio.
Cristo Redentor moves to the Modern Era. It was built in 1933, after all.

I have included various new wonders for consideration: The Petra Treasury, Himeji Castle, The Forbidden City, The Leaning Tower, and The Venetian Arsenal.
I have also made suggestions for seven new corporations, taken from the Feedback: Corporations thread.

Edit: I don't expect any of the new Wonders or Corporations to be added to 0.9.5. I included them in the same spirit as the Mint, Refinery, Telegraph, Medical Lab buildings/Wonders.

Simon_Jester

Sep 28, 2011, 10:41 PM

My thinking was that Replaceable Parts represents the concept and initial small scale production in specifics areas, weaponry in particular. Machine Tools represents the the development of the concept and tools beyond their initial scope and into the wider economy. As Simon says, historically there's quite the time and technology gap between replaceable parts and full-blown powered assembly lines. Perhaps 'Mass Production' is a more suitable name?I disagree. Machine tools as a field were one of the big changes of the mid-19th century: a 'machine tool' is something distinct from ordinary hand tools in that it is a complex, precise mechanical construct which is designed to perform very specific, equally precise operations on a part.

You build them and install them in factories and machine shops to do a LOT of work; they're heavy capital goods, not like the hand tools of an artisan. The rise of the machine tool was one of the things that accelerated the spread of the factory model, because the machine tools were too large and expensive for one man to afford and maintain- they're easier for large enterprises to operate, and that gives large enterprises a powerful economy of scale.

But... well. In itself, "mass production" is a loosely defined term. Varying levels of "mass production" become possible depending on how you organize your factory and what it is you make. It's a LOT easier to mass produce spoons (no moving parts, only a few operations required to make one, which can be easily done using simple tools and relatively unskilledo perators) than it is to mass produce cars (zillions of moving parts, each of which requires several very precise tool operations, many of which require expensive machine tools or specialized hand tools used only for making cars, and which require either robots or trained auto workers to use).

This is why factories were engaged in "mass production" of spoons in the early to mid-19th century, while no one figured out how to "mass produce" automobiles until Henry Ford, roughly a century later.

Thus, "mass production" is a vaguely defined concept; it's just a slightly fancier way to say "make a lot of them," and how you go about doing it depends entirely on what "them" is.

Whereas "machine tools" represent a specific innovation that emerged at a distinct period in history. Nations which had access to machine tools gained a powerful, tangible advantage over nations which did not.

Incidentally, the same can be said of "assembly line-" you will notice a huge shift in the economies of nations which start putting together large factories with modern-style assembly lines, and it's a specific concept.

I prefer techs to be tied to specific advances which we can identify with a particular time and place. We know that Iron Working is (for instance) associated with the time frame ~1000-1200 BC in Mesopotamia, that it gave nations that had it (like the Hittites) a tangible advantage over nations that didn't have the secret. We know that the advent of radar is associated with the time frame ~1935-1945 in the developed world, that it gave nations which were good with it (like the US and Britain) a tangible advantage over nations that weren't so good with it (like Germany and Japan). And so on.

So I think "Machine Tools" is the better name.

Btw, Automation is not a tech I'm happy with. It was originally 'Automobiles' but got shuffled around trying to fit everything together and lost a lot of its meaning in the process. It will probably be redesigned or removed when I eventually get to reviewing that part of the tree.The idea of a mid-20th century "automation" tech is sound, in my opinion, something to reflect advances in electromechanical control that made things like radar, gunnery computers, and early general purpose computing machines possible.

Geology is a tech that I've never managed to fit in to my satisfaction, I'm interested to see what your ideas for it are. What would it unlock? I had it revealing Coal and Oil.When does it show up? I would hate to see steam-powered units not be useful because I need to research an entirely separate technology to unlock coal, unless that tech was much further up the tree so that anyone can be assumed to have researched it long since.

I never did end up splitting Cultivation into better specified agricultural techs, which is a shame.Even if you hadn't, you've got a number of techs whose impact on history revolves around advances in food production and storage. My point is that advances in manufacturing and tool-making are equally important, and so deserve an equally diversified spread of techs to represent advances through the ages.

Xyth

Sep 30, 2011, 04:04 AM

Azoth

Oct 05, 2011, 11:50 AM

Quick note:
I'm working on a third draft of the tech tree myself.

For the new techs, I've chosen:
Fortification
Geology
Clockwork
Heraldry
Fertilizer
Acoustics and
Carpentry.

It should be ready in a couple of days.

Azoth

Oct 08, 2011, 06:11 PM

Presenting my third draft of the HR tech tree:
Now extending all the way to the Future Era!

Changes in the names or positions of existing bonuses and technologies are marked in blue.
Entirely new technologies and bonuses are marked in green.
New or changed crosslinks are left unmarked.
The Industrial and Modern Eras are also largely unmarked, for the sake of clarity.

A full list of the new crosslinks and unit requirements is included with the tech tree.

Technologies

Each of the six major eras - Ancient, Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, and Modern - has three full columns of technologies.
The four starting technologies fall under Prehistory and the nine final technologies belong to the Future Era.
Seven new technologies are introduced. Fortification is reintroduced to the Classical Era; Carpentry, Clockwork, Heraldry, and Acoustics are added to the Medieval Era; Geology os added to the Renaissance Era; and Fertilizer, to the Industrial Era.
At the same time, seven existing technologies are cut: Military Tradition, Entrenchment, Total War, Nuclear Weapons, Nuclear Power, Nutrition, and Sustainability.
Astronomy moves forward to the Classical Era and Divination shifts back to the Ancient Era. Astronomy no longer leads to Divination and Mathematics; it requires them, as it should.
Welfare is recast as Sociology, and Particle Physics as Atomic Theory. Astrophysics is replaced with Cybernetics. The terribly unimaginative Future Tech is renamed Singularity.
Civil Liberties and Civil Rights are renamed Liberalism and Egalitarianism. I stand by this name change. Civil liberties and civil rights sound like the civics a civilization adopts when it is persuaded by the force of social advances such as liberalism and egalitarianism. As it happens, civil liberties and civil rights are represented among the civics as Jurisdiction and Equal Rights. Meanwhile, Liberalism and Egalitarianism join the ranks of other -isms such as Feminism. After all, it would be odd to rename that last "Women's Suffrage."

Bonuses

The first-to-research bonuses were reshuffled. Players must chose between the Great Artist at Acoustics and the Great Prophet at Evangelism. (Aesthetics is really too soon for the artist.) Players must later chose between a Great General at Gunpowder, Great Merchant at Economics, and free technology at Scientific Method. Finally, they have a choice between the Great Spy at Journalism, the Great Engineer at Assembly Line, and the Great Scientist at Atomic Theory. Assuming a competitive tech race, no single civilization can claim them all.
Some Wonders were reshuffled. Notre Dame is unlocked at Acoustics and Angkor Wat at Urban Planning. The National Theatre is now available before the National Museum, as it should; their positions in the tree have been swapped. Finally, the Seasonal Palace requires Sanitation; its requisite Courthouses are available two columns earlier, at Constitution.
Some units were reshuffled. Heavy Footmen, Longbowmen, and Siege Towers are now available in the late Classical Era.
Crossbowmen, Pikemen, Heavy Horsement, and Trebuchet are unlocked a column later, in the Medieval Era.
The Age of Sail was left untouched from the second draft. Once again, I suggest the Dromon instead of the Galleass as the medieval upgrade to the Trireme. Gunpowder is too late for a medieval ship.
Some civics were reshuffled: Conscription to Employment, Caste System to Philosophy, Aristocracy to Land Tenure, Vassalage to Heraldry, and Industrialism to Railroad. A better fit, overall.
The Espionage slider is unlocked at Politics: there is no reason for the AI to waste commerce on the espionage slider before it can build Spies! Build Espionage moves forward to Guilds and Build Research, even further, to Scientific Method. Meanwhile, Universities take a step back, to Humanism. They were already present by the time of the Scientific Method.
The Well moves to Hydraulics; the Levee, an earthen embankment, to Geology. Spread irrigation moves a couple columns forward to Urban Planning. Finally, Cultivation is split between Horticulture and Fertilizer. The one unlocks Grocers and bonus Plantation commerce; the other, Supermarkets and bonus farm food. Horticulture is too early for +1 food on Farms anyway.
Certain improvements have been reshuffled so that they are available before their corresponding civic: Workshops move to Aesthetics, and Nature Preserves to Biology. That way, a few are already built in time for Professionalism at Artisanry and Environmentalism at Biology.
I propose a new unit, the Colonist, unlocked at Urban Planning. An upgrade on the Settler, the Colonist would cost roughly twice as much and found cities with a higher starting population and some free buildings, just like a Settler in a Renaissance Era start. I hope this is possible to code.
As before, some ideas for new wonders and corporations are also included.

davidtylr

Oct 08, 2011, 09:42 PM

I think settlers in the later game should come with buildings too.

Keinpferd

Oct 09, 2011, 02:58 AM

…has three full columns of technologies.

Symmetrical;) full columns, well. A little skew tech tree doesn't need to be bad necessarily, too.

I'd wish for a few more AND (in HR not arrows but small in the corner? Am I understand this right?) prereqs, that help pace the technological advancements and availability of buildings. Theaters two columns earlier than the Statue of Zeus seems to me too distant. Or, it would be easily possible, that the Statue of Zeus or the Mausoleum finishes in an early medieval surrounding with longbowmen and heavy footmen standing in that city. This becomes less likely if you add a couple more of prereqs. A convincing atmosphere of an "age" you are "in" without too many disturbing anachronisms, is also a nice trait of a game.

Carpentry, Clockwork, Heraldry, and Acoustics are added to the Medieval Era;[…]

Heraldry is a good medieval addition.

Welfare is recast as Sociology[…]

Hm. There are also right wing sociologists that have nothing got to do with any welfare ideas.

Civil Liberties and Civil Rights are renamed Liberalism and Egalitarianism. I stand by this name change. Civil liberties and civil rights sound like the civics a civilization adopts when it is persuaded by the force of social advances such as liberalism and egalitarianism. As it happens, civil liberties and civil rights are represented among the civics as Jurisdiction and Equal Rights. Meanwhile, Liberalism and Egalitarianism join the ranks of other -isms such as Feminism. After all, it would be odd to rename that last "Women's Suffrage."

You may be right with the -ism reasoning, but Civil Liberties are an idea shared by political agents who sharply reject the agenda of political liberalism. Likewise, Civil Rights can no doubt be on the political agenda of anti-egalitarianists. European liberalism, for instance, can be very elitist and anti-egalitarian while clinging to civil rights as one of their traditional political objectives.

The terribly unimaginative Future Tech is renamed Singularity.

Like.

I propose a new unit, the Colonist, unlocked at Urban Planning. An upgrade on the Settler, the Colonist would cost roughly twice as much and found cities with a higher starting population and some free buildings, just like a Settler in a Renaissance Era start. I hope this is possible to code.

I'm pretty sure it's possible, and I think it's a good idea.

Azoth

Oct 09, 2011, 04:40 PM

One thing that has been bugging me about the tree is that while most eras have 3 columns each, the Classical and Medieval eras share 5 columns between them. So I'm experimenting with inserting another 7 techs to even this out. Let me know if there are any Medieval (or nearby) techs that you think should be added or returned.
Symmetrical;) full columns, well. A little skew tech tree doesn't need to be bad necessarily, too.

I agree that symmetry is not strictly necessary but, as you can see, Xyth specifically requests it.

In some cases, there are in fact good gameplay reasons for rejecting symmetry.
For instance, I would suggest that Riding, which falls within an Ancient Era column, be reclassified as a Classical technology.
This solves a serious problem with Classical Era starts: since all players, including the barbarians, begin the game with all Ancient technologies, Barbarian Horse Archers can appear immediately. Players have no adequate defense against these units for at least the first 25 turns of the game, before they connect their strategic resources; and entire civilizations are often eliminated as a result.

Compass can't have 2 crosslinks leading to it. Crosslinks are done via the BTS optional tech mechanic (I switched the functionality of the arrows and corner icons) so it would require Iron Working OR Navigation, not both. Being able to research Compass without having Iron Working is a definite oversight though, I'll see what I can do.
I'd wish for a few more AND (in HR not arrows but small in the corner? Am I understand this right?) prereqs, that help pace the technological advancements and availability of buildings. Theaters two columns earlier than the Statue of Zeus seems to me too distant. Or, it would be easily possible, that the Statue of Zeus or the Mausoleum finishes in an early medieval surrounding with longbowmen and heavy footmen standing in that city. This becomes less likely if you add a couple more of prereqs. A convincing atmosphere of an "age" you are "in" without too many disturbing anachronisms, is also a nice trait of a game.

In HR, arrows are "AND" prerequisties while corner icons are "OR" prerequisites.
That means that only one corner icon per technology is required; any more would be optional.
I have added many corner icon crosslinks to the tech tree; the total now stands at 35.
Let me know if there are any logical connections I have overlooked. As to specifics:

Theatres: Xyth decided long ago that the Theatre would be an Ancient Era building. When you consider not only classical Greek theatre but also ancient Egyptian, Indian, and Chinese theatre, the decision makes sense. The performing arts are very old indeed; older, in most cases, than literature. At the same time, the classical Greek Wonders are surprisingly young: most were built between 400-200 BC, which corresponds nicely with the second column of the Classical Era.

Longbowmen: Longbowman in the Classical Era are indeed anachronistic. Unfortunately, I was constrained by gameplay concerns: Heavy Footmen have always been available in the Classical Era, and players must be given the tools to defend against them. That said, there has been some talk of switching the roles of the Longbowman and Crossbowman as part of general update of Skirmisher units. Crossbows were in use across Europe and Asia by 300 BC, so their presence in the Classical Era will be much less jarring.

Compass: I found a solution to this oversight. Compass now requires Clockwork and Navigation. Clockwork, in turn, requires Machinery, which requires Iron Working.

Heraldry is a good medieval addition.

Thanks. I was planning to add Chivalry to the Medieval Era, then decided that Heraldry was both more distinct and universal.

Hm. There are also right wing sociologists that have nothing got to do with any welfare ideas.

Absolutely. That's why I decided to move the Social Welfare civic to Labour Unions.
Sociology, the study of human social activity and institutions, is now a strictly neutral technology.
It unlocks Intelligence Agencies and Cristo Redentor, neither of which are especially political in nature.

You may be right with the -ism reasoning, but Civil Liberties are an idea shared by political agents who sharply reject the agenda of political liberalism. Likewise, Civil Rights can no doubt be on the political agenda of anti-egalitarianists. European liberalism, for instance, can be very elitist and anti-egalitarian while clinging to civil rights as one of their traditional political objectives.

Ah, but Liberalism as a technology refers to the classical liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism) of the Renaissance and Industrial Eras and not modern political or social liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism). Classical liberalism was committed to individual liberty, limited government, due process, and the rule of law. (Note that Liberalism unlocks the Jurisdiction civic.) That's hardly controversial. Of course, classical liberalism was elitist in character: it granted many rights to wealthy men, and few to women, slaves, and the poor. However, liberalism was so successful a philosophy that all major modern political movements are 'liberal' in the classical sense. Modern liberalism seeks to combine classical liberalism with a commitment to social justice. This is best represented by the term Egalitarianism. As it happens, I suspect that Xyth refers to "Civil Rights" in the American sense: as the end of segregation and racial laws. The Martin Luther King, Jr. quote suggests as much. This can be confusing, hence the suggested name change. Egalitarianism is committed to equal treatment for all people; not surprisingly, it unlocks the Equal Rights civic. Modern political movements of all stripes might be elite-driven but they are almost always egalitarian to the extent that they assume the equal moral worth of all people: men, women, rich, and poor.

I disagree with cutting Calendar ---> Oratory. With a calendar a civ develops festivals and similar; drama, storytelling and speechmaking are often integral aspects of such events.

Good thinking. I have reinstated that link.

And a final comment: I felt that Fishing was easily the least desirable of the starting technologies. The others unlock useful early buildings or improvements; Fishing, not so much.
So I have moved the Work Boat to Fishing. Players must still research Sailing to enable Fishing Boats; but civilizations with Fishing can start building the necessary Work Boats on T0.

Xyth

Oct 09, 2011, 08:12 PM

Thanks for the third draft, lots of good ideas in there. Quite a few cases where you've made the same or similar changes that I have too, which is encouraging. My son is ill so I haven't managed to get a lot done these last couple days but I hope to present a fourth draft soon though, combining our ideas.

A few quick comments for now:

Astronomy moves forward to the Classical Era and Divination shifts back to the Ancient Era. Astronomy no longer leads to Divination and Mathematics; it requires them, as it should.

Perfect. That creates some really nice connections and spaces things out much better. It always bothered me that Divination was so late.

The first-to-research bonuses were reshuffled. Players must chose between the Great Artist at Acoustics and the Great Prophet at Evangelism. (Aesthetics is really too soon for the artist.) Players must later chose between a Great General at Gunpowder, Great Merchant at Economics, and free technology at Scientific Method. Finally, they have a choice between the Great Spy at Journalism, the Great Engineer at Assembly Line, and the Great Scientist at Atomic Theory. Assuming a competitive tech race, no single civilization can claim them all.

Not sure I agree with all the tech choices but I definitely agree with the goal. Keeping it in mind for the fourth draft.

The Espionage slider is unlocked at Politics: there is no reason for the AI to waste commerce on the espionage slider before it can build Spies!

Good catch.

I propose a new unit, the Colonist, unlocked at Urban Planning. An upgrade on the Settler, the Colonist would cost roughly twice as much and found cities with a higher starting population and some free buildings, just like a Settler in a Renaissance Era start. I hope this is possible to code.

Pretty sure I can code that. Probably won't attempt it in 0.9.5 though, already far behind schedule.

As before, some ideas for new wonders and corporations are also included.

Some good suggestions, I won't go through them all for now but note that Al Khazneh (the Petra treasury) is currently used as the Arabian UW, Himeji Castle as the Japanese UW, and the Venetian Arsenal graphic is being used as the Dutch UW (East India company). All three of these are worthy of promotion though, so long as we can find suitable replacements for the UWs.

Keinpferd

Oct 10, 2011, 05:04 AM

In HR, arrows are "AND" prerequisties while corner icons are "OR" prerequisites.
Makes sense, thanks for the clarification:). Makes it a little harder, though, to control the pace of advancement to avoid anachronisms through more AND prereqs, because it would mess up the graphical looks of the tech tree…

Xyth decided long ago that the Theatre would be an Ancient Era building. When you consider not only classical Greek theatre but also ancient Egyptian, Indian, and Chinese theatre, the decision makes sense. The performing arts are very old indeed; older, in most cases, than literature.

There's nothing left of ancient theater buildings neither in India, Egypt nor China. Some meager textual hints in (how?) few ancient sources? What's that compared to the many preserved Greek theaters like the one in Epidaurus (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Theatre_of_Epidaurus)? It's amazing, how much rubbish passes undisputedly in the field of history, or if not undisputedly, still watermarked "science."

As you know, theatre is much more than people pretending to be somebody or something else in front of an audience. It's a an idea, too. It involves a public – and an inbuilt possibility of disapproval. It's a long way between wooden "stages" of theatrical acrobatics to stone structure with cranes to lift gods on stage. I'd like to see in a Civ theatre that permanent building, which belongs on the timeline a little closer to the Parthenon and the Statue of Zeus than it's now.

Classical liberalism was committed to individual liberty, limited government, due process, and the rule of law. (Note that Liberalism unlocks the Jurisdiction civic.) That's hardly controversial. Of course, classical liberalism was elitist in character: it granted many rights to wealthy men, and few to women, slaves, and the poor. However, liberalism was so successful a philosophy that all major modern political movements are 'liberal' in the classical sense. Modern liberalism seeks to combine classical liberalism with a commitment to social justice. This is best represented by the term Egalitarianism. As it happens, I suspect that Xyth refers to "Civil Rights" in the American sense: as the end of segregation and racial laws. The Martin Luther King, Jr. quote suggests as much. This can be confusing, hence the suggested name change. Egalitarianism is committed to equal treatment for all people; not surprisingly, it unlocks the Equal Rights civic. Modern political movements of all stripes might be elite-driven but they are almost always egalitarian to the extent that they assume the equal moral worth of all people: men, women, rich, and poor.

That's a good explanation of how "you mean" liberalism. You know, there's always a good chance to mix up what the Americans call liberalism, what Wikpedia calls social liberalism as opposed to classical liberalism, and how most Europeans understand the term in one way or another. I still wouldn't expect it in a Renaissance column of our Tech tree, though. Why don't you rename the Tech that enables Jurisdiction to something more suitable to Renaissance – or move "Liberalism" to something post-enlightenment in a 19th century column, enabling something different than Jurisdiction there.

I know, it's impossible to model all Techs after the perfectly clear base model Film, unlocking what, Cinema and Hollywood. Got it, no further questions. Too often, you're finding Techs that unlock something that apparently ended up there, because there was simply no other place for it. Let me give a few examples: Explosives (TNT?) -> Machine Gun, Atomic Theory -> Submarine (??), Rifling -> Cavalry, Refrigeration -> Destroyer, Computer -> Paratroopers, and so on. What was so wrong with Xyth's original Trench Warfare enabling Machine Gun? I get the impression, that omitting some Military Techs (which sounded a little contrived in some cases), is the reason for these topical assymmetries.

Xyth

Oct 10, 2011, 03:02 PM

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification:). Makes it a little harder, though, to control the pace of advancement to avoid anachronisms through more AND prereqs, because it would mess up the graphical looks of the tech tree…

A single OR prereq acts as an AND prereq, it's only when there's two or more of them when they become optional. So they can still be used to control the pace of advancement.

Simon_Jester

Oct 10, 2011, 08:31 PM

At the same time, seven existing technologies are cut: Military Tradition, Entrenchment, Total War, Nuclear Weapons, Nuclear Power, Nutrition, and Sustainability.I'm not sure I like this. Some of those, drop them, but I think you cut a little too much out of the 'military' side of the tree. There's been a very real dichotomy in history between nations with a warlike culture that pursued new ways to organize their armed forces, and nations which didn't.

Particle Physics as Atomic Theory.These aren't actually the same thing. The 'atomic theory' is the idea that matter is made of atoms, very much a 19th century concept and more important to chemistry than to physics. Not a good prerequisite for things like nukes.

Particle physics reflects advances made almost entirely after 1900, into the internal structure of the atom and other particles not normally found in atoms, without which it would be impossible for us to make things like lasers, nuclear power plants and modern microchips.

Too often, you're finding Techs that unlock something that apparently ended up there, because there was simply no other place for it. Let me give a few examples: Explosives (TNT?) -> Machine Gun,Not TNT. Cordite. 20th century style machine guns of the sort that broke armies in World War One were made possible by smokeless powder. It's not senseless, but I see the argument for using Trench Warfare as the basis.

And I do agree that there should be a substantial number of military techs, though perhaps not a whole row of them- maybe they should be interleaved with other techs that historically had an impact on how people waged war, but which were not purely innovations in military tactics and doctrine.

Atomic Theory -> Submarine (??),I got nothing. Sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

Rifling -> Cavalry,The Cavalry unit is in fact supposed to represent late 19th and early 20th century mounted units, which often fought as mounted riflemen with towed light artillery in support, and which were more effective as mobile skirmishers than most of the lancer and hussar units that predated them.

Refrigeration -> Destroyer, Computer -> Paratroopers,Again, I got nothing.

Simon_Jester

Oct 10, 2011, 09:27 PM

Oh, one thing.

Just a suggested quote, for an artillery-related tech, if you want.

So he made rebellion 'gainst the king his liege,
camped before his citadel and summoned it to siege.
"Nay," said the cannoneer on the castle wall,
"but iron, cold iron, shall be master of you all."

-Rudyard Kipling

Simon_Jester

Oct 25, 2011, 04:18 PM

Tech remarks, on the current tree as I see it, in the modern era.

"Miniaturization" doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a Tier 19 tech, unless I misunderstand what you mean it to represent. Is it that you mean to represent the rapid decrease in the size of computers, so that they become integrated into other devices and into convenient portable cases, rather than being dedicated pieces of furniture in their own right? The shift from mainframes and desktops toward laptops and smart phones?

If so, then I can see it; I suggest prerequisites of "Surveillance," which I guess is kind of related, and "Networks," which is obviously related since it's the boom in online content that helped motivate that change.

On the prerequisites of Surveillance: Fission, and... I suggest Mass Media or Computers for a second prerequisite.

Much of the technology of mass surveillance is closely related to that used in 20th century media applications, when you look at things like electronic bugs, closed-circuit TV monitors, and computerized processing of information running over telephone and computer networks. But then, the tie to computers is obvious.
_____________

Tech quotes, somewhat mitigated by my not knowing for sure what you plan to keep or drop:

URBAN PLANNING
"The city must be beautiful, due advantage being taken of the hilly nature of the spot for grand or lovely prospects...."
-Pierre L'Enfant, planner of the city of Washington, D.C.
_______________

A couple more Civilopedia descriptions...

(Tech)
NETWORKS

The value of computers increases sharply when they can be used to send information by remote access over long distances. An isolated computer is just a machine for doing calculations and controlling fixed installations. A computer network can coordinate the activities of a large organization, give all members of the group access to a single central database, or allow scattered groups of people to interact in ways limited only by the power of their computers.

Early computer networks were piggybacked onto the existing infrastructure of the telephone system, and made use of simple communication protocols devised by computer scientists and enthusiasts. Over time, the complexity of networks has increased, as has the body of technical literature and specialist skills devoted to designing, building, and maintaining them. Today, most of the world's computer networks flow together seamlessly into the Internet, a world-spanning system that allows nearly anyone on Earth to communicate with anyone else, given computer access.

(Civic)
BUREAUCRACY
As the tools of law and government grow more complex, the traditional method of simply appointing a single governor or magistrate for every territory under the state's control becomes impractical. Certain duties within the government become full-time jobs- particularly the keeping of records and the tracking of citizens' legal obligations.

This leads to the growth of bureaucracy: an organization of specialists employed to keep track of paperwork, regulations, licensing, and so forth. While government is far from the only institution which can sprout a bureaucracy, it is perhaps the best-known for doing so.

In extreme cases, the legal code can become so involuted, and the bureaucracy's power to control society's resources can become so entrenched, that bureaucracy effectively overrides the existing government. Change of society, for better or for worse, becomes extremely difficult. On the other hand, if the bureaucracy is competent and free from corruption, it can usually be relied on to keep the basic engines of social well-being running smoothly.

Simon_Jester

Oct 26, 2011, 10:56 PM

FORTIFICATION

Fortifications are structures built to aid in the defense of a point or area against attackers. Various types of fortification have existed since prehistoric times: the proto-city of Jericho was protected by a wall over three meters high as early as 9000 BC- although this may have been as much a flood control measure as a military defense. The growth of civilization and advances in the killing power of weapons made fixed defenses ever more important.

The basic concept of walling a city in to deter casual raiders and force even a determined army into a protracted, costly siege is quite old, as is the concept of incorporating defensible features into buildings- such as narrow windows and entryways that provide cover to defenders and make it hard for attackers to push into the building safely.

Advances in engineering during classical times, and larger labor forces made available by advances in agriculture, allowed a great increase in the scale of defensive works. Entire provinces could be protected by walls like the famous Great Wall of China, or Hadrian's Wall in Britain. Individual points could be held with great castles and fortresses, strong enough that it would take years of siege to starve them out, as a mass assault by soldiers using normal means was guaranteed to fail.

This goal of demanding multi-year sieges became impractical towards the end of the medieval period, with the invention of gunpowder-based artillery, but the art of fortification remained prominent. Architects devised new ways to build defenses that would absorb and deflect cannon fire, sheltering troops from enemy guns and channeling attackers into zones where the defenders' guns could be brought to bear.

LAND TENURE

Land tenure is a particular theory of property-ownership, applied to control of land. Under tenure agreements, land is assumed to rightfully 'belong' to a sovereign monarch, but to be ceded to particular people as part of some agreement. The relationship between the words "tenure" and "tenant" is no coincidence- a tenant might hold tenure of a tract of land in exchange for considerations such as the payment of rent, taxes, or an agreement to fight on the owner's behalf in war.

This last possibility lent itself to the rise of nested feudal hierarchies, in which powerful nobles and monarchs could grant land to loyal followers, and get a hold on their loyalty and that of their descendants in exchange for control of their lands.

RECORD KEEPING

The rise of Neolithic cities and the accumulation of economic surplus made a new problem in the human experience- how to keep track of so many goods. Memory was at best a flawed guide, and trusting subjects to guard a treasure-house or other storage facility was always risky. Specialists needed to be able to make binding agreements that would last for years in some legally enforceable form; priests and mystics wanted to lay out their myths and revelations in permanent forms.

All these things motivated the creation of systematic methods of record keeping, evolving from things like tally sticks and symbolic mnemonic tokens into what we would call writing. For example, the ancient Mesopotamians once recorded contracts by making tiny sculptures of the items promised as part of the deal, then baking them into a ball of clay. Over time, people began carving representations of the items into the surface of the clay, and then to dispense with the little statuettes altogether, paving the way for the cuneiform method of writing.

Xyth

Oct 31, 2011, 04:28 AM

Here at long last is the fourth draft of the techtree. Sorry it's taken so long, life has been pretty busy these last few weeks. Given how long 0.9.5 is taking I'd like this to be the final draft, barring minor adjustments of course.

Stuff in red is new, stuff in green has been renamed, and stuff in blue has been moved. I have to confess I lost track somewhat of which changes were made relative to which version of the tree so the colours should just be treated as a rough guide. In particular there were many techs that moved a short distance that I didn't bother coloring blue.

Some notes:

Eras are more consistent in length, partially because each is three columns wide, but primarily due to there being a lot more crosslinks. This should help create more of a sense of being 'within an era' and make it harder to beeline too quickly into the next era. The one exception to this is the Ancient era - too many crosslinks here made for frustrating gameplay in my testing, and didn't feel realistic.

I didn't deliberately shorten the Modern Era to three columns as this is the one era that doesn't have to have a similar length to the others. However there were several 'placeholder' technologies there that added little to no value and it just ended up this way. There are a few cut techs that I'd like to bring back eventually but only when/if there is more to attach to them. One day I can imagine HR having an 'Early Modern Era' (til the end of WW2) and a 'Late Modern Era' (post WW2).

I've done a fair bit of 'declumping' but hopefully not to the point where associations stop making sense. Some elements, units in particular, I feel just need to be spaced out a certain way and I don't wish to break this up unnecessarily.

As always there will be some units/buildings/wonders that will have multiple tech requirements. These aren't listed on the chart yet. (I'm planning to make this chart and another of the traits available as reference pdfs).

The free great people have been reassigned similar to Azoth's suggestion, so that it's less likely for one player to get most of them. Medieval choices are General or Prophet, Renaissance options are Merchant or Scientist, and Industrial options are Engineer or Spy. The Artist shifts all the way to the Modern era.

I've decided to keep the Galleass at Gunpowder (and adjust its stats appropriately) but add the Dromon as well. We're going to need to do an overhaul of pre-Industrial ships before 0.9.5 can be completed.

I haven't included corporations at all, I don't have time to focus on them at all yet. Similarly, I've added a few suggested wonders that struck me as must-haves, but any others I'll think about once 0.9.5 is done.

The three Nuclear techs were merged into Atomic Physics and Fission (Simon I'll use your Nuclear Weapons pedia entry for Fission and your Nuclear Power entry for the Nuclear Plant. They are far too good to waste!).

Thanks for all the feedback, drafts, suggestions, quotes and texts so far. I'm really pleased with how well this techtree has evolved. Please let me know if there are any vital tweaks that you feel need to be made or oversights that need to be fixed.

Xyth

Nov 14, 2011, 03:08 AM

Not too long to go now on 0.9.5 now, mostly tying up loose ends and doublechecking things. There's still a few techs without quotes though, would appreciate suggestions:

• Alchemy
• Automobile
• Cybernetics
• Ethics
• Geology
• Horticulture
• Nobility
• Polymers
• Stirrups

Simon_Jester

Nov 14, 2011, 08:12 PM

Polymers can probably use the quote used for Plastics in Vanilla, unless you have a Plastics tech too. I'll think about some others in a few days- I'm really kinda busy right now.

Simon_Jester

Nov 29, 2011, 08:02 PM

AERODYNAMICS

Aerodynamics is the study of designing objects so that they will go smoothly through the air, rather than having to constantly waste energy battering through air resistance.

In the early days of flight, aerodynamics was a somewhat informal science, and advances in engine power that gave aircraft more brute-force ability to push through the air were often more important. This began to change in the 1920s and 1930s, when aerodynamic designs became more popular not only for monocoque-hulled aircraft, but also for trains and automobiles.

Aerodynamics became all the more important when engineers attempted to design more complex and advanced aircraft, such as helicopters (which are inherently unstable, and must be designed carefully to be flyable) and supersonic jets (since passing the speed of sound can rip an aircraft to pieces if the design fails to deflect and make use of shockwaves created by breaking the sound barrier).

Today, aerodynamic calculations can be made in greater detail and thoroughness than ever before, using powerful computers. This allows designers to extract the greatest possible speed and efficiency out of a given amount of engine power.

ALCHEMY
Alchemy is the study of chemical substances, in its pre-scientific form.

This was often an informal art; mysticism and superstition were mixed seamlessly with pragmatic efforts to manipulate flame, metal, and liquids. Many alchemists sought out impossible goals such as the universal solvent, the elixir of youth, the secret of immortality, or means by which common metals like iron or lead might be transmuted into gold. Alchemy was fraught with frauds, cheats, and liars.

However, alchemists made real contributions to society. Alchemists were the first to invent many of the basic techniques of processing chemicals, and the equipment needed to do so. Operating on a rough-and-ready empirical basis, they were able to develop substances such as acids, distilled alcoholic spirits, incendiaries, and gunpowder, which had great effects on their societies in both war and peace.

ATOMIC PHYSICS
Atomic theory is, in simplest form, the idea that all matter is made up of tiny, indivisible particles called "atoms."

The first ancient form of this theory comes from the Greek philosopher Democritus. His atomic theory was founded on the Greek ideas of the geometric order of the universe and of the four elements, which led to some strange ideas. For instance, early supporters of the atomic theory suggested that water might flow because it was made up of icosahedral atoms which, being nearly round, tumbled over each other easily; fire was painful because it was made up of tetrahedral atoms which were sharp and thus damaging. Since there was no evidence for this theory at the time, and no obvious reason to prefer it to the alternatives, it was largely ignored for the following two thousand years.

The atomic theory re-emerged around 1800, following early chemists' discovery of new types of chemical elements that seemed more fundamental than things like air and fire. The chemist John Dalton proposed again that all matter was made of atoms, which were neither created nor destroyed in chemical reactions, only reshuffled to form different substances. This theory proved fruitful for 19th century chemistry, although many scientists insisted that it was only a theory.

Towards the end of the century, advances in the studies of the spectrum of light emitted by different elements, and the discovery of radioactivity, cast doubt on the premise that atoms were indivisible. Perhaps atoms had some kind of internal structure, and were themselves composed of smaller particles with new and intriguing properties of their own. The first of these particles to be discovered was the electron, a tiny and lightweight particle which carries a strong negative charge, and whose motions form the basis for nearly all electrical, magnetic, and chemical interactions.

Further investigation into the structure of the atom using ever more precise and complex instruments and mathematical theories opened up broad vistas of scientific discovery. Various models of atomic structure, such as the "plum pudding" model, the Rutherford atom, and the Bohr atom, were considered, modified, or discarded. Scientists gained more understanding of the mechanisms behind atomic structure, and of how atoms could bind together to form molecules.

This led to great advances in practical technology in the latter half of the 20th century. Once the atoms that made them up were understood, chemists could tailor-make molecules to suit their needs. Alloys with strange electrical properties could be used to build advanced calculating machines. And the immense forces locked within the atomic nucleus could be released, for good or for evil.

dr_s

Nov 30, 2011, 10:31 AM

One big comment about the tech tree, based on a couple hours and one game. I think there are way to many "and" requirements in the tree. This really reduces player choice in moving through the tree (and therefore makes each game more similar). It also makes some techs hidden requirements for others. In my first game, it's 380 BC and I have only one tech available to research: archery.

This seems strange to me from both a historical and a game-play perspective. For example, it's not clear to me why I should have to tech archery in order to research shipbuilding to construct harbors, or why I should have to know archery to tech record keeping and have open borders with my neighbors. I think the tree would be a lot better if many of the "and" requirements were changed to "or", as they are in the basic game.

Xyth

Nov 30, 2011, 01:39 PM

I've deliberately designed the techtree (techmesh?) a bit differently from standard BTS. I want to achieve a sense of 'being within an era', where you can't rush too far ahead and you require the majority of one era's techs before advancing to the next. 'Or' tech requirements aren't very compatible with this in most situations.

That said, I don't want there to be too many bottlenecks or 'compulsory' patterns within the eras themselves so feedback on where these might exist is useful.

dr_s

Dec 01, 2011, 08:39 AM

I figured it was on purpose, and I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I guess for my tastes it goes too far. I don't think that they should all be changed to 'or', but I do think some of them should. Think about it this way. Every 'and' is, by itself, a small compulsory pattern: if you want to get to C, you have to do both A and B. Changing some of the 'and' requirements to 'or' opens up strategic decisions for the player.

Simon_Jester

Dec 01, 2011, 07:20 PM

You could probably relax it a little without spoiling the flavor- for instance, you might need A "or" B to get to C, but still have to pick up both before you can proceed to D, E, and F.

EDIT: I'm really not sure why you call the Polymers tech "Polymers," Xyth; it seems a bit off to me, especially since in real life polymers and plastics are practically the same thing and yet you have them covering two different technologies. What's your reasoning for the choice of name?

Simon_Jester

Dec 01, 2011, 08:41 PM

AUTOMATION

Automation is the art of making machines which perform tasks on their own, without active input or oversight from a human operator. Automatic constructs have existed as toys for the rich since ancient times, the products of individual craftsmanship, but widespread use of automation to control machines is a twentieth-century phenomenon.

The demand for automation first came from the need to make machinery function where humans cannot or will not- be it in an extremely hostile environment, in a factory where machines ran faster than the human eye can follow, or in a job too menial and unstimulating for the average person to be content doing. Over time, automation has become more popular and flexible, especially with the rise of electronic computers.

Automatic equipment invariably saves human labor, but it also displaces labor. The simple tasks involved in doing the machine's job are replaced by specialized jobs tending the machines... or not replaced at all.

AUTOMOBILE

[cribbed from Civilization 2 Civilopedia]

The earliest attempts at producing a self-propelled vehicle date back to the late 1770s. These early vehicles used bulky steam engines for power. Despite constant improvements, the steam engine ultimately proved impractical for small vehicles. The development of the internal combustion engine in the late 1800s provided a small but powerful replacement for steam engines, and were able to achieve much higher speeds. The first practical automobiles were developed in the late 19th century, by automotive pioneers in France, Germany, and the United States. By the 1920s, a number of automotive manufacturing companies were operating in the U.S., including Ford and General Motors. By 1980, more than 300 million cars and 85 million trucks were in operation throughout the world. The popularity of the automobile has led to massive improvements in the highway systems in most industrialized countries. Unfortunately, automobiles are also one of the primary sources of air pollution, and have resulted in an all time high demand for petrochemical fuels.

AVIATION

While the earliest powered flying machines proved useless for war except as aerial scout platforms, the demands of World War One accelerated development of fast, powerful aircraft capable of hauling significant weapons or cargo. Steady improvements in the internal combustion engine, and rapid growth of experience in airplane design, led to a boom in the airplane's capabilities in the 1920s and 1930s. Passenger aviation in planes like the Douglas DC-3 (still in service today) turned aircraft construction into a major industry. At the same time, military airplanes became more powerful and capable, diversifying into fast, agile fighters and bombers capable of carrying tons of explosives hundreds of kilometers into enemy territory.

BIONICS

Bionics is one name for the effort to create machines that can duplicate functions of human body parts. This has obvious applications in medicine, where it allows people who have lost limbs, sensory organs, or even hearts to survive with mechanical substitutes. Other effects of this growing field, placed as it is at the cutting edge of automation, miniaturization, and our understanding of how brain and body operate, are more subtle but perhaps no less profound.

Advanced bionics might allow the creation of synthetic androids whose superficially human appearance lends itself to a variety of roles. They might become popular as replacements or augmentations for functioning body parts- if an artificial eye sees more clearly, some may prefer it to their natural one. Taken to its logical extreme, bionics might even cause us to call into question the very meaning of what it is to be human, an issue mostly considered the province of science fiction to date.

CARTOGRAPHY

Cartography is the art of making maps. Since any traveler will do well to have maps of the territory they move through, good maps have been in demand for as long as the art of writing made it possible to create them.

Early maps were often crude, with the shapes of continents and the relative position of cities and landmarks grossly distorted. Portions of the map with which the artist was unfamiliar were often decorated with fanciful place-names and the images of fictional creatures, as in the famous "here there be dragons."

Cartography became more of a science during the medieval period, with advances in mathematics, surveying techniques. Growing and spreading populations helped as well- it's easier and more practical to make an accurate map of cultivated fields and townships than of a howling wilderness. During the European Age of Exploration, the art of mapmaking advanced hand in hand with the art of navigation- the one being nearly impossible without the other.

CARVING

Carving is the practice of making indentations on a solid object, using some sort of cutting tool or scraping technique. Carving has been a popular way to decorate stone, bone, wood, and other durable materials since prehistoric times, and definitely predates the rise of even the earliest and smallest civilized communities.

Decorative carving techniques tie into methods for toolmaking, especially in the working of wood and stone.

Xyth

Dec 01, 2011, 10:10 PM

You could probably relax it a little without spoiling the flavor- for instance, you might need A "or" B to get to C, but still have to pick up both before you can proceed to D, E, and F.

The major challenge is that I've partially usurped the "or" function to allow for crosslinks. Individual changes can't be made without affecting similar connections elsewhere, visibly if not functionally.

EDIT: I'm really not sure why you call the Polymers tech "Polymers," Xyth; it seems a bit off to me, especially since in real life polymers and plastics are practically the same thing and yet you have them covering two different technologies. What's your reasoning for the choice of name?

Polymers is meant to represent more advanced materials like carbon fibre, fibre glass, kevlar, graphene, and such. I went with that name because plastics are just one type of polymer, the term has a much broader definition encompassing many more material types. It's not ideal though, better suggestions are welcome. Or maybe it should just go back to Composites?

Simon_Jester

Dec 01, 2011, 11:14 PM

Hmmm. I'd go with Composites if I were you. There's nothing wrong with that name, and it avoids confusion with plastics- which is natural, since the first "polymers" most people think of are plastics.

And I udnerstand what you mean about the tree being hard to fiddle with.

Simon_Jester

Dec 06, 2011, 06:48 PM

CIVIL LIBERTIES

Civil liberties are forms of freedom of action which the state is required to give to all citizens, without limits or with very minimal limits.

The idea that one's standing in society confers certain rights is ancient- most traditional societies grant special immunities to nobles and priests, granting them more room to speak their minds and more confidence of avoiding practices like torture and arbitrary arrest. But in most of the world, the notion that these rights should be universal is relatively new. Similarly, the belief that they should apply without exception even when the state has an interest in ignoring them, as a matter of principle date back to no earlier than the Enlightenment of the 1600s and 1700s.

Key among these basic rights are freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to vote, and freedom from arbitrary use of police powers. Removing any of these rights makes it far easier for a tyrannical government to suppress dissent, while keeping them in place helps to ensure that the state remains honest, forthright, and responsible in its dealings with the citizenry.

CIVIL RIGHTS

Certain inequalities have been a feature of most civilizations since the beginning of recorded history, or earlier. Almost without exception, most women were restricted to low-prestige roles as subordinates to men. Many societies identified a ruling elite or 'native' national majority which was free to condemn religious, racial, or other minorities. Large categories of second-class citizens existed in practically all countries, most frequently women, who lacked the political and economic freedoms enjoyed by men.

As great increases in wealth, literacy, and access to communications spread through the developed world in the late 19th and early 20th century, this state of affairs was called into question. Women agitated for the right to vote. Racial minorities struggled to achieve equal access to economic opportunities. Ethnic and linguistic groups overpowered and surrounded by foreigners (especially in the Americas and Australia) fought to preserve their right to raise their own children and maintain their language and traditions in the face of intense pressure to dissolve into the mainstream.

The battles for these forms of equality, generally known as "civil rights" were one of the defining social forces of the 20th century, and continue into the 21st.

Simon_Jester

Dec 06, 2011, 06:57 PM

CIVIL SERVICE

[Xyth, what stops you from repurposing the description of the Bureaucracy tech from vanilla Civ IV?]

COPPER WORKING

Copper is one of the few metallic elements which can be found in nature in pure form, uncombined with other elements and not bound into an ore. This made it easy for primitive societies to find and work in modest quantities.

Copper can be used for metallic tools, but it is soft and does not hold a cutting edge well. Most societies found more use for copper in jewelry and decorations. However, familiarity with working copper (and other elements found in native-metal form, such as gold, silver, and meteoric iron) probably contributed to early societies' understanding of metalworking in general. As the techniques for refining metals from ore improved, this became crucial to the progress of early civilizations.

CROP ROTATION

Crop rotation is the practice of planting different species of crops in the same field in a continuous cycle. This is extremely useful as a way to improve farm productivity, because any given crop will absorb certain nutrients from the soil while leaving others in place or even enriching them. Over time, growing the same crops in a field over and over will exhaust its nutrients and make it useless. By rotating crops, a farmer can intersperse these periods of nutrient drain with periods where the crops actively replenish the soil; this is often achieved using legume crops such as beans, which enrich soil with nitrogen that many other plants need to grow.

Crop rotation was introduced in various parts of the world during the classical and medieval periods. Over time it has become a more complex practice; each improvement in crop rotation practices provided a boost in agricultural productivity. While today, chemical fertilizers often take the place of crop rotation by replacing soil nutrients artificially, crop rotation remains an important technique for farmers to know, especially if they wish to avoid relying totally on the fertilizer supply.

CYBERNETICS

Cybernetics is a term coined by pioneering computer scientist Norbert Wiener, referring to the science of studying control systems, organization, and information flow.

This is a relatively new field of research, dating to the mid-20th century. Cyberneticists seek to understand how decisions are made, and how to improve the process using systematic, scientific methods. This is particularly important in the fields of automation and computer programming. Setting up a computer to do a job in a human's place cannot be done unless the computer's programmers and users understand how it is to make the necessary decisions: how the computer 'thinks.' Cybernetics also finds use in management of human beings, because its theories can be applied to the flow of information and decisions up and down a chain of command, among a peer group, or through other social structures.

More colloquially, "cybernetics" is often used to refer to advanced automation, or to a mixture of organic and machine technology, particularly in the context of the newly-dawning Information Age. Naturally, this is tied into the research described above- one can hardly design an advanced robot without knowing how to build a decision-making computer.

Howard Mahler

Dec 06, 2011, 08:15 PM

Fishing Nets do not currently advance beyond base level.

Perhaps they should increase with the discovery of Refrigeration.
I idea being that with refrigeration one can make better use of the seafood that is caught.

I was thinking +1 food, but could instead be +! commerce.

This would also work with the technology of Canning, if that were ever added.
(Canning food was a huge advance during the reign of Napoleon.)

Just a thought.

Xyth

Dec 06, 2011, 08:32 PM

CIVIL SERVICE

[Xyth, what stops you from repurposing the description of the Bureaucracy tech from vanilla Civ IV?]

Looks like I forgot to link it properly, done now.

Simon_Jester

Dec 07, 2011, 08:24 PM

DOGMA

"Dogma" refers to a firmly established body of beliefs and opinions, generally associated with religion and laid out by respected theologians within the faith. Within that religion, the dogma is considered authoritative and final- it may be clarified or expanded upon, but not contradicted. To call the basic facts of the dogma into question is, by definition, to leave the religion for some other path which may be deemed heretical.

Different religions have different core bodies of dogma, which usually focus on key points of doctrine that the religious leaders consider to be of extreme importance. In Christianity, the concept of salvation through faith in Christ is a matter of dogma, although the details of how this salvation may best be achieved can vary. In Islam, it is a point of dogma that Muhammed was the last of the divinely inspired prophets.

Dogma is particularly important to organized religions, since it serves to define the limits of what can and cannot be accepted as part of the faith. Learning the basic principles outlined by the dogma is considered the universal foundation of education within the religious tradition, and among the scholarly figures of the religion, all knowledge and all philosophy is likely to be interpreted through the dogma's lens.

Groups which defy dogma are often forced to recant, removed from positions of official responsibility, and even violently persecuted until they rejoin the fold, flee, or die.

The concept of points of dogma that a society will not tolerate violation of is not unique to religion. Many totalitarian societies feature secular political 'dogma,' de facto or de jure, which cannot be violated without the hostile attentions of the state.

ECOLOGY

Ecology is the science of studying biological systems in nature, as distinct from the processes that go on inside individual organisms or species.

Ecologists focus on understanding how different species interact in their natural habitats, what causes some to flourish and others to fade, what patterns persist across all examples of a given biome (such as 'forest' or 'savannah'), and what difference may make one area unique compared to others that are superficially similar. Knowledge of ecology helps to predict the future of a living system, control outbreaks of diseases such as blights in the wild, and mitigate certain types of natural disaster such as floods and wildfires.

Ecological discoveries over the late 19th and 20th centuries have made humanity far more aware of the complexities of life on Earth, and how human actions impact these complexities.

EMPLOYMENT

In hunter-gatherer societies, every person works solely for themself, or for a handful of dependents such as children. Goods may be distributed among the group or kept in an individual's hands, but there is no concept of one person working at the orders of another, or working solely to enrich another.

This pattern seems to have persisted through the early days of civilization, with the average citizen being a subsistence farmer who works to grow their own food and make their own goods, or a specialist who provides some specific product in exchange for food and goods. The most common exception were slaves, individuals legally owned by some other person, and who could be ordered to do nearly any form of labor on their behalf.

However, as the amount of surplus available to large civilizations grew and the techniques for recording inventories and contracts improved, a new type of labor relationship emerged- that of the employee. Instead of working directly to produce goods for their own consumption, or being used as a form of property to produce goods for another, an employee works on behalf of another in exchange for some regular, agreed-upon form of compensation, such as food, shelter, money, or a combination of the above.

This kind of labor is much more flexible than subsistence labor. An employee can be paid to do things that would not allow them to provide for themselves directly (a construction worker cannot eat the buildings he creates), or to improve the productivity of a large-scale enterprise (a clerk would be useless working alone, but is valuable when working for a large organization). It is also much more efficient than slavery. Unlike slaves, employees can be obtained cheaply, need not be policed to prevent escapes, and have no particular reason to resent the person they work for which might lead them to cheat, steal, or simply slow down on the job.

ETHICS

Ethics is the philosophical study which addresses moral questions- matters of right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and injustice. This has preoccupied thinkers since ancient times, but formal discussion and contemplation of ethics as a logic-based endeavour, as distinct from traditions of religious or secular law, are mostly a product of the classical and medieval periods.

Different cultures produce widely divergent schools of ethics, ranging from the law-oriented systems common in China to the relatively individualist virtue-ethical schools of the ancient Greeks. Ethics may be highly abstract or applied as a practical matter to questions of professional conduct and personal behavior. They may emphasize the intent of the moral actor, the fulfillment of certain laws and precepts, the consequences of the action itself, or any combination of the above.

[possibly incomplete -SJ]

Howard Mahler

Dec 15, 2011, 05:39 PM

As I have said, I think the end of the tech tree could use more work and added depth.
I am not thinking of a Sci-Fi mod.
(A false dichotomy, either one leaves it alone or adds as many techs as in a Sci-Fi mod or Alpha Centauri.)

The game supposedly goes to 2050.
So I would like to see about 40 more years of techs beyond present day.
This would be at least as many techs as over the last 40 years, due to the generally accelerating rate of technological advancement.

From a game standpoint, one is trying to avoid edge effects.
As one approaches the end of the tech tree, the lack of useful techs to research starts affecting the game well before one reaches the final column.
I think it is better to maintain for as long as possible the illusion that technological advancement continues to stretch into the far future.

Also, for those of us who do not play the spaceship victory, the tech tree thins out much sooner than necessary.

I would like to see some more weapons advancements, buildings, wonders, etc, so that it takes longer to get the sense that useful research is at an end. This should make it possible to grow even bigger and more productive cities.

One could come up with some techs that are expected to see widespread application in the next 40 years, or at least might see widespread application in the next 40 years. For example: controlled fussion, maglev trains, asteriod mining, gene therapy, etc.

Simon_Jester

Dec 15, 2011, 08:52 PM

Asteroid mining isn't a very likely one in the near-term future... although it could have been, if we'd put in the effort in the '70s and on to develop the infrastructure.

Mr. Sulu

Dec 29, 2011, 08:23 AM

Here are some ideas for techs, several of them are borrowed from Next War mod

Biological Warfare
"Above 700 Negroes are come down the River in the Smallpox. I shall distribute them about the Rebel Plantations"
-Alexander Leslie

Cloning
"Cloning is great. If God made the original, then making copies should be fine"
-Doug Coupland

Gene Manipulation
"The advance of genetic engineering makes it quite conceivable that we will begin to design our own evolutionary progress."
-Isaac Asimov

Magnetic Levitation
Haven't found a quote

ColdFusion
"Now, of course, cold fusion is the daddy of them all in a way, in terms of value, so I think that viewed in a social way, from the point of social considerations and economics, it will tell you that this thing will stay around."
-Martin Fleischmann

Nanotechnology
"Nanotechnology is manufacturing with atoms"
-William Powell

Space Tourism
"In 12 or 15 years, there will be routine, affordable space tourism not just in the U.S. but in a lot of countries"
-Burt Rutan

String Theory
"In essence, String Theory describes space and time, matter and energy, gravity and light, indeed all of God's creation... as music"
-Roy H. Williams

Simon_Jester

Dec 30, 2011, 04:14 AM

I oppose making String Theory a tech because there is no real certainty that any of the many theories which can be described under the heading of 'string theory' are true. They represent one set of ways among many that could let us describe the universe in terms 'deeper' than the current Standard Model. But they're far from the only possible way.

Also, I'm not sure what advances could be attached to super-advanced physics technologies in the post-modern era. Speaking as someone with a physics background, deep research into theoretical physics may turn out to be something of a dead end in the 21st century, simply because we're discovering things so subtle and difficult to bring out from the background that they become nearly impossible to apply.

Advances in the physics of materials have applications we'll see plenty of. Likewise for the physics of plasmas and particle beams (fusion, cancer therapy, weapons- one thing we could create as a 'future' unit without getting too far into the future would be a "laser destroyer" with excellent defense statistics, reflecting the use of tactical lasers to intercept air and missile attacks.

Mr. Sulu

Dec 30, 2011, 07:17 AM

Hmm, your point about String Theory is correct, there are 5 differing theories. But it does have the potential to become the theory of everything, and it's discovery in itself is an important discovery, is it not? I see your point though. But what do you think of the other Technology ideas?

I have some more ideas

Magnetic Weaponry
"I am speed, and I destroy"
-Motto of the United States Railgun Development Program

This has potential as a very dangerous weapon. We're already developing them (Albeit the ones we have right now are about the size of a small building) but I think they have potential. Thoughts?

Quantum Mechanics
"For those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it"
-Niels Bohr

This has branched off into several fields of Science, and is an important part of several types of sciences

Simon_Jester

Dec 30, 2011, 03:14 PM

You seem to be proposing that we create new techs with new names, that did not previously exist; how would these techs fit into the existing tree? Do you have a proposal in mind for what their prerequisites should be?

I'd love to see a sketch of a convincing 'future tree' that runs past 'current' technology while offering plausible bonuses, improvements and units that benefit the player who isn't planning on a space race victory.

Caesar Augustus

Dec 30, 2011, 08:58 PM

I would think a better name for the "String Theory" tech would be "Unified Field Theory" as it gets the point across (a theory of everything) without constraining it. But that's, of course, assuming that adding a tech like that is even worthwhile, of which I'm not convinced.

Mr. Sulu

Dec 31, 2011, 01:24 PM

Well, this would require moving the Space Ship parts far back, but I do you have some ideas

Quantum Mechanics should come before Particle Physics, as Particle Physics are governed by Quantum Mechanics, and Quantum Mechanics was developed in the 1930s and the Standard Model was developed in the 1970s.....But I would really like an actual physicist in this case. I am not an expert in physics. But, since it was developed around the same time as the atomic bomb you could place it as prerequisite to Atomic Physics, and make it necessary to have Combustion to research it. You could then put the ability to build a laboratory, to make it earlier as laboratories have been used before the age of computers.

Biological Warfare weapons were built in the 1970s, and were operational (Until we gave them up) , so it would make sense to put them somewhere around Computers, as Computers were used in their production, so we could place them after Computers and require you to have researched Rocketry. Once discovering Biological Warfare you could build Biological Warfare Missiles, which would require a Biological Warfare Lab (I'm really milking Next War). Using these Biological Warfare Missiles on an enemy would result in a diplomatic penalty. Although we could also think of a viable way of spreading disease in enemy cities, such as giving Great Spies the ability to carry a virus and then you could sacrifice them to attack, short of adding an Great Doctor Unit.

These are the ones I have time to evaluate right now.

Simon_Jester

Dec 31, 2011, 08:43 PM

Well, this would require moving the Space Ship parts far back, but I do you have some ideas

Quantum Mechanics should come before Particle Physics, as Particle Physics are governed by Quantum Mechanics, and Quantum Mechanics was developed in the 1930s...I question the wisdom of inserting Quantum Mechanics into the tree at all, as a tech distinct from the 'atomic' technologies already in there. While the development of QM involved a lot of brainwork by some very smart people, there's only so much room in the tree at all.

Broadly speaking, we have one column of techs for each twenty years or so of the twentieth century- which is about the minimum to represent such a huge jump in technological capability and social change, but still means that for every 20-year period there are only about seven techs to go around. If "nuclear fission" and "atomic physics" are already there, then even wearing my physicist hat I wouldn't want to see yet another 'physics' tech in the early to mid-20th century. Not when it's competing for space with very logical choices like "Total War," or "Feminism" or "Pharmaceuticals" or "Radar."

and the Standard Model was developed in the 1970s.....But I would really like an actual physicist in this case. I am not an expert in physics. But, since it was developed around the same time as the atomic bomb you could place it as prerequisite to Atomic Physics, and make it necessary to have Combustion to research it. You could then put the ability to build a laboratory, to make it earlier as laboratories have been used before the age of computers.Atomic physics is, basically, the physics of the atom- and our understanding of the atom proceeded in parallel with the advance of quantum mechanics. "Atomic physics" does not simply mean "this is how to make atomic bombs go bang." Arguably, the study of atomic physics began with Rutherford's alpha particle scattering experiments back around 1910.

Although making the laboratory available earlier is a GREAT idea, I totally approve, because it helps compensate for the increased length of the tech tree. The first organized research and development facilities showed up within a decade or two of 1900, depending on how you define the term. What is there in the existing tree that corresponds to techs that were developed circa 1880-1900...

Hm. How about making Electricity the prerequisite for Laboratories? I think that's a fine idea, myself.

Biological Warfare weapons were built in the 1970s, and were operational (Until we gave them up) , so it would make sense to put them somewhere around Computers, as Computers were used in their production, so we could place them after Computers and require you to have researched Rocketry. Once discovering Biological Warfare you could build Biological Warfare Missiles, which would require a Biological Warfare Lab (I'm really milking Next War). Using these Biological Warfare Missiles on an enemy would result in a diplomatic penalty. Although we could also think of a viable way of spreading disease in enemy cities, such as giving Great Spies the ability to carry a virus and then you could sacrifice them to attack, short of adding an Great Doctor Unit.Using Great People for that role strikes me as a bad idea. It's very hard to get them in the late-game, and sacrificing one for a short-term military advantage... I don't like it.

There was some talk, a while ago, about making 'plague' mechanics for the game, as a way to artificially limit the growth of populations in the early game and make it more costly and risky to push population beyond the limit of a city's health. This might be a good time to think about how to implement them...

Plagues could be a common problem for overpopulated cities in the early and mid-game, nearly disappear in the industrial age as the right combination of buildings and technologies emerged, and then re-appear (potentially) with the rise of bioweapons... which would carry a grave risk of bombing entire civilizations back into the Iron Age as far as population size and productive power were concerned, because of the sudden outbreaks of plagues in otherwise healthy cities.

Seriously, bioweapons are nasty stuff. I know some people who know one guy whose job description is "professional nuclear war planner;" a lot of what I wrote in the 'nuclear weapon' descriptions I learned from his writings. He thinks over the effects of nuclear bombs on a regular basis and regards them with respectful familiarity. But biological warfare scares even him.

Something to think about, that.

Mr. Sulu

Dec 31, 2011, 10:14 PM

Well, in RFC they actually made Russian Research Institutes unlock at Electricity, so it would be a smart idea. Definitely with the increased number of techs we should probably get at least 1 more science building but I digress. But the great person idea was from Thomas's war, so I didn't really know how it would work out. But the idea of limiting early growth with the possibility of plagues sounds good to me. Rarely is there ramifications in-game for keeping your cities unhealthy (Except when the Influenza event comes around). But yeah, they once let lose Anthrax on Gruinard Island only inhabited by birds and smaller mammals and it took 40 years for it to subside. So we could have biological warfare missiles leave effects around the city which destroys any tiles for Food/Commerce/Science that you can work around your city. This would reduce your cities to small hamlets. However, it should be possible to remove it's effects. Really horrific stuff....

Simon_Jester

Jan 01, 2012, 03:41 PM

I would argue that biological weapons have such civilization-ending potential that if they are given their full realistic power, they do not belong in the mod at all.

It would actually be possible to fight a nuclear war and have a more or less functioning civilization come out the other side, after it digs its way out of the rubble, if the war were not as absolute and massively destructive as it could be. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to fight such a war with tailored viruses.

Also, unlike nuclear weapons we really do not have any strong, reliable information on what bioweapons would do- nuclear weapons have been tested openly, used in war, and there is plenty of published material on what they can do from authoritative sources. Bioweapons are more speculative, and as such we could present them as anything from an exotic cruise missile substitute (as in Next War) to "push button, world comes to an end."

Mr. Sulu

Jan 02, 2012, 09:31 AM

In my opinion biological warfare in real life is more dangerous and valuable from a conqueror's standpoint than nuclear weapons, as all of the buildings in a city would stay but all the people would die. But it's after effects would last for decades, which would render the area useless so either way you're looking a casualties and contamination. But bringing this back to Civ IV I don't think Biological Warfare Missiles should be world-ending weapons, but an intermediary between Guided missiles and ICBM's. You could store them in cities and Missile Cruisers and launch them at cities (which would cause a loss of population) and they would "contaminate" surrounding tiles, rendering them unworkable. This would be similar to fallout, and speaking from a graphics standpoint you could just turn fallout green and be done with it. The tiles could have contamination removed by a Laborer in 10-15 turns minimum, and this ability would be unlocked by as yet unknown tech (I don't have access to Civ IV HR right now). This would give the player long term implications on using them, as it will require investment to clean up and has dangerous effects if you're hit with them. It would also be interesting to have a UN resolution banning them, like the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty they already have.

Simon_Jester

Jan 02, 2012, 04:07 PM

In my opinion biological warfare in real life is more dangerous and valuable from a conqueror's standpoint than nuclear weapons, as all of the buildings in a city would stay but all the people would die. But it's after effects would last for decades, which would render the area useless so either way you're looking a casualties and contamination.You could push armies through a zone you'd fought over with nuclear weapons- cancer rates go up a bit down the line, but you still have a military in fighting condition afterwards as long as you have well trained units to probe for radiation hazards and don't do things like drink from the water in a nuclear bomb crater.

With bioweapons... God help you if the plague gets to your own lines and starts spreading among your own armies, or your own civilians. It's a whole new level of "dangerous." Nuclear weapons are deeply, profoundly, deadly... but they're only that horribly dangerous in the area they're aimed at. Bioweapons can be aimed at one place and kill the population of nations half way round the world from the target.

There are good reasons why everyone abandoned bioweapons. They're simply not controllable in real life- you can't easily make them deadly enough to be more dangerous than an equivalent amount of nerve gas without making them deadly enough to kill the world.

If we bring that mechanic into History Rewritten, and give them realistic power levels, they become "push button, end game." If we don't do that, and bioweapon effects are arbitrarily assumed to be limited to the point directly attacked, they're just an exotic substitute for cruise or nuclear missiles, like in Next War- where frankly I never really got the point of using bioweapons at all, and relied on conventional weapons.

I don't see the point, myself.

Xyth

Jan 02, 2012, 08:20 PM

Laboratory

I agree that it probably should be earlier than it is. Electricity would make good sense though I worry that it's a little too close to the Observatory and the University. Significant calendar and gamespeed changes are coming in the next version so lets see how those feel first and keep this in mind as way to fine-tune things in the late game as necessary.

Atomic Physics, Particle Physics, and the Future era

I'm using these two techs to cover the development of modern physics, including Quantum Mechanics. Atomic Physics covers the work of Bohr, Rutherford, etc and deals with protons, neutrons, electrons, radiation, electromagnetism, quanta, etc. Particle Physics refers to advanced understanding of matter and energy, the Standard Model, dark matter, string theories, etc. As it's a future tech in HR I consider Particle Physics in game to be more advanced than our current real world understanding and to even represent a complete 'unified model'.

I'm open to suggestions for better names for either or both techs but at this stage I really don't think we can justify even more physics techs. The modern era has a lot to cover already and the Future era needs a lot more content added to the existing techs before we consider adding even more of them. Although a few more techs may get added eventually, note that I don't wish to expand the Future Era into a full era in its own right. I'm happy for it to exist primarily for the space race - it just needs some 'bonus' content added to it for those that reach it and aren't seeking a space victory.

That said, if anyone thinks one of the existing future techs would be better renamed or replaced by something else, I'm open to suggestions here too. I just chose techs that fit the flow of the tree coming out of the Modern era and that seemed to me to be some of the likely or desirable next steps for technology.

At some point I need to have a look at Next War and see what from there would make sense as near-future additions to HR. Not a priority at the moment though.

Simon_Jester

Jan 02, 2012, 11:05 PM

It would actually make good logical sense for the University to become available in the late medieval or early renaissance. Is that where you have it now?

Xyth

Jan 02, 2012, 11:34 PM

It would actually make good logical sense for the University to become available in the late medieval or early renaissance. Is that where you have it now?

It's available at Humanism in the early Renaissance. The Observatory is available at Physics in the late Renaissance and Electricity is early Industrial.

Simon_Jester

Jan 03, 2012, 01:40 PM

OK, I can see how you might want to push Laboratory a little further down the tree than that.

Still, it's something to think about- moving it up to a time when there's still several tiers of tech left to research would turn it into less of an afterthought.

Research boosts in general are just weak in the very late game, if you ask me. It's one of the problems with adding 'marvel of modern science' wonders like the LHC or the Hubble Telescope- simply making them give you a science boost is useless.

Xyth

Jan 04, 2012, 02:45 AM

Simon_Jester

Jan 04, 2012, 03:10 AM

Actually what i could do is move the Observatory back to Optics (early Renaissance). I keep forgetting that the University in HR is the Great Scientist building and thus it doesn't hurt having both the University and Observatory available at similar times as not all cities will have a University.

Thus we'd have the Libarary in the early Classical era, School in the early Medieval era, Observatory in the early Renaissance, and the Laboratory in the early Industrial era. Beautifully spaced out!D'oh. I was thinking of the University in its BTS capacity, not the School (which is effectively a renamed University now). But yes, that works quite well and gives us a steady progression of science infrastructure throughout the early and mid-games.

EDIT: I'd have to move the Laboratory's spaceship production bonus elsewhere though, makes no sense being that early.Hmmmm.

We could have an actual Spaceport improvement, maybe? Something that represents facilities like Cape Kennedy and Baikonur? I'm not sure what else it would do, we can work that out. Could call it Spaceport, which is generic, or... Cosmodrome just sounds cool to me. I dunno.

And yes, at the moment facilities like that are thin on the ground, but then we're nowhere near ready to start building an interstellar colony ship yet. By the time anyone actually tried to do that, the infrastructure would be there and you'd almost have to have a nation's space launch capability distributed among multiple cities.

If we can figure out what to do with it, Spaceport also gives us the advantage of creating something else to build in the late game. I'd have to look over the tech tree to figure out exactly where it belongs, mind you.

I can't swear to there being art for such a thing, mind you, but I would think there would be something we could use somewhere.

As an interim solution, just leave the spaceship component bonus where it is- no actual harm done by putting it unreasonably early in the game, even if it is a bit silly.

Mr. Sulu

Jan 08, 2012, 07:36 PM

Simon_Jester

Jan 08, 2012, 09:53 PM

We could actually make A Separate Building, called a "Spaceship Factory", unlocking at composites which would provide +2 Engineers, +50% Spaceship Production, however would be limited to 6 per nation, scaling on mapsize. This would prevent someone from building them anywhere, and would require you to plan more in-depth for where you're going to build your spaceship parts. It should also be expensive, maybe at least 1200-1300 Hammers to represent the immense cost of creating such things to service shuttlecraft....How much do spaceship parts cost, anyway? It doesn't make any sense to spend 1200 hammers to build something that gives you a 50% bonus to something that only costs 1200-1500 hammers to begin with...

I favor "Spaceport" or "Cosmodrome" or the like as the name of the improvement. A free engineer, scientist, both, some combination like that would be good as a benefit. It should require the Airport improvement, and be... expensive but not ludicrously so- you have to give people a reason not to build it just anywhere.

Hmmm. Can you make it so that you have to have X airports built in order to create one spaceport, just as you need X temples to build one cathedral? That would be a good way of limiting numbers.

This would prioritize high-production cities even more if you want to win a space victory. To strengthen the Laboratory increase the bonus to +50% percent and remove the unhealthiness bonus, if you haven't done so already. The extra science will make up for the longer HR tech tree as well.Since he just increased game length to 600 turns, it's probably just as well if he doesn't tamper further with Laboratory until we've had a chance to test that out.

I personally dislike the health penalty because I don't feel it's particularly realistic; it's not like major research facilities pollute on anything like the scale of industrial facilities.

Simon_Jester

Apr 09, 2012, 01:17 AM

I'm baaack...

EVANGELISM

Evangelism is a type of religion which sees expanding itself as a sacred duty. This view begins with the idea of a specific religion as being at the center of one's existence. To the evangelist, it isn't simply a matter of appeasing one's own gods, with other people having other gods. It isn't a matter of trying to become personally enlightened. No, this enlightenment must be spread to others, or the reverence of this god must be something that it would be good for everyone to share.

Therefore, to the evangelist, the very existence of unbelievers is a disastrous state of the world. It is a crisis facing the souls of the human race, an emptiness in the collective spirit of humanity, and possibly a personal insult as well. Evangelists will go forth and preach to others, converting outsiders to the faith, and to their own specific versions of the faith- by hook or by crook.

FERTILIZER

Fertilizers are substances which increase the fertility of soil by introducing nutrients that are normally lacking. Since nutrient deficiencies in substances like carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus are often bottlenecks in plant growth, fertilizer makes plants to grow larger and more quickly. This is especially desirable in agriculture, as it allows the same land to feed more people.

Fertilization has been a common practice throughout the civilized world since prehistoric times. Farmers in nearly all places fertilized their fields with simple materials like animal (or human) dung, ground-up fish remains, or potsherds (most fertile soil in the Amazon basin is laced with broken pottery, and this appears to have been deliberate on the natives' part).

During the 19th and 20th centuries, the range of available fertilizers has grown dramatically. Industrial-scale extraction of minerals, particularly nitrates and phosphates, allowed vast increases in farm output. Advances in industrial chemistry allowed factories to create fully synthetic fertilizers too, using customized organic molecules to speed the growth of crops and inhibit the growth of weeds and parasites. This contributes to the success of the "Green Revolution" of the 1960s and 1970s at feeding a world population of seven billion and rising.

In general, fertilizer achieves varying success. Used carelessly, it may not contribute to soil fertility (adding more of what's already there is pointless), or even decrease it (adding enough phosphorus to maximize growth may result in all the carbon in the soil being used up quickly). This is a particularly serious problem with "Green Revolution" crops in the modern era.

FILM

One of the many great inventions of the mid-19th century was 'moving pictures.' By creating a narrow strip of transparent 'film' with tiny still images impressed on it, and rapidly moving this film past a light source, the images could be projected onto a wall or screen. Changing the image fast enough (~10 times per second) creates the illusion of motion, allowing artists to show an audience a moving, lifelike image of events on screen.

This gave rise to the first "mass media." The creation of motion pictures became a professionalized industry, with a special class of artists who were experts at using techniques like camera angles and special effects to evoke emotion. It also created a new class of celebrity- the movie star, who was seen by millions on a regular basis where an ordinary actor would never appear before more than a few thousand people at a time.

Film could be used for educational or news purposes as well- and became a popular vehicle for state propaganda, since it was easily reproduced for use by the masses, but had to be created by specialists if it was to have the desired impact.

lindsay40k

May 16, 2012, 01:59 PM

Radio > Film

I understand these technologies were developed in parallel, not sequence.

Simon_Jester

May 17, 2012, 05:32 PM

Film here may refer not to the physical technology but to the institutions- to "cinema," not to Edison's early silent film experiments.

The movie industry developed along with radio and didn't really take off until a time when radio was fairly widespread.

Howard Mahler

May 17, 2012, 05:43 PM

I do not know what difference any of this makes.

I believe that radio as entertainment became big in the US in the 1920s.
Radio as a means of long range communication for important messages was a decade or two earlier.

Film as in cinema for entertainment wa big in the US by 1910 and became bigger over time.

Film here may refer not to the physical technology but to the institutions- to "cinema," not to Edison's early silent film experiments.

The movie industry developed along with radio and didn't really take off until a time when radio was fairly widespread.

Packherd2

Jun 20, 2012, 12:59 PM

In case you haven't got one already, I just heard this and thought it would be perfect for the Nobility tech:

A fully equipped English duke costs as much as two dreadnaughts, is every bit as great a terror, and lasts a great deal longer.
–David Lloyd George

Jarlaxe Baenre

Jun 24, 2012, 10:46 AM

I've gotten back into civilization again, and decided to download the latest version of the mod. But the tech tree is extremely annoying. To research a certain tech, you have to research nearly everything two to five columns earlier than it.
EXAMPLE:
Rifling. In order to get rifling, here are some irrelevant techs you need to research:
Meteorology
Constitution
Corporation
Economics
Medicine
Theology
Ethics
Philosophy

Xyth

Jun 24, 2012, 02:21 PM

I've gotten back into civilization again, and decided to download the latest version of the mod. But the tech tree is extremely annoying. To research a certain tech, you have to research nearly everything two to five columns earlier than it.

Yep. The tree is designed so you can't rush through eras and beeline for specific strong techs in the next one. I want there to be a sense of being 'in' each era, you have to develop all aspects of your civilization before you can advance. Units should have a decent length of time in play before they become obsolete.

Rifling. In order to get rifling, here are some irrelevant techs you need to research:
Meteorology
Constitution
Corporation
Economics
Medicine
Theology
Ethics
Philosophy

Any tech tree is like that, unless it has almost completely separate 'lines' with little to no crossover (and thus poor gameplay). It's like saying, "I want to research Nuclear Fission - why do I need Agriculture or Law?" You don't directly, but to build a society capable of even considering nuclear fission requires an awful lot of indirect development. Rifling doesn't need Meteorology but Physics certainly does, and Rifling certainly requires Physics. Rifling doesn't need Economics, but Replaceable Parts does and Rifling requires Replaceable Parts. It's just how tech trees work. HR's is a bit stricter than many, yes, but I've explained why above.

Jarlaxe Baenre

Jun 24, 2012, 05:21 PM

Yep. The tree is designed so you can't rush through eras and beeline for specific strong techs in the next one. I want there to be a sense of being 'in' each era, you have to develop all aspects of your civilization before you can advance. Units should have a decent length of time in play before they become obsolete.

Any tech tree is like that, unless it has almost completely separate 'lines' with little to no crossover (and thus poor gameplay). It's like saying, "I want to research Nuclear Fission - why do I need Agriculture or Law?" You don't directly, but to build a society capable of even considering nuclear fission requires an awful lot of indirect development. Rifling doesn't need Meteorology but Physics certainly does, and Rifling certainly requires Physics. Rifling doesn't need Economics, but Replaceable Parts does and Rifling requires Replaceable Parts. It's just how tech trees work. HR's is a bit stricter than many, yes, but I've explained why above.

It's too strict. I pulled those examples because they aren't even absolutely necessary for what they lead directly towards.
Meteorology is not necessary for the physics of rifling. Having to research everything with an arrow leading towards a tech is annoying. Perhaps you could do something similar to the original tech tree and have certain later technologies require earlier ones, such as meteorology? That way, you don't get too far ahead, but you aren't learning to dance in order to build tanks.

Simon_Jester

Jun 25, 2012, 02:00 PM

It's too strict. I pulled those examples because they aren't even absolutely necessary for what they lead directly towards.
Meteorology is not necessary for the physics of rifling. Having to research everything with an arrow leading towards a tech is annoying. Perhaps you could do something similar to the original tech tree and have certain later technologies require earlier ones, such as meteorology? That way, you don't get too far ahead, but you aren't learning to dance in order to build tanks.I don't think this is in keeping with the nature of the mod, or for that matter the game in general.

Civ is about building a civilization, not an army (or for that matter a dance troupe). The entire purpose of the game is to be growing your civilization in multiple ways, so that it becomes systematically better over time- not to stay stuck in the Dark Ages in terms of economic and political structure, and impoverished in terms of culture, while somehow turning into a military supermonster. That is a deeply unrealistic, anti-historical thing.

In real life, powerful, successful civilizations succeed in multiple ways. To take an example- the British ruled over India for roughly 200 years; how did this happen. In Civilization terms, the British had many advantages.

-Ships: the British could sail to India, the Indians could not sail to Britain. This gave the British the freedom to engage or disengage with any part of the Indian subcontinent- if the ruler of one city drove them out, they could simply pack up their bags and sail to another one. No Indian ruler could actually prevent the British from bringing gold, troops, and influence to India as a whole.

-Resources: the British had a global empire and the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution at home. They could produce all sorts of goods, including things that no Indian had access to.

-Organization: India at the time was ruled by a decaying Mughal Empire in the north, which was so fallen-apart that it actively sold off tax collection and law enforcement rights over whole provinces to the British East India Company because they needed the money. And a large number of relatively small city-states and principalities in the south. No government in India had the strength to stand against the East India Company alone, not when the Company could simply ally with one local power bloc against another, play them off against each other, conquer the loser and co-opt the winner.

Meanwhile, Britain had a unified Parliament that could set laws and policies which gave the Company a very secure base and niche in the global empire Britain was building at the time. And the Company itself was much larger and more organized than any trading concern India had ever seen before. In short, India was disorganized for a number of reasons, Britain was organized.

-Weapons: this was actually one of the least important factors. Sure, the British had muskets and cannons, but so did the Indians, and by and large the British muskets of 1750 weren't obviously superior to the Indian muskets. About the only difference was the scale of production- Britain had dedicated arsenals turning out large numbers of reliable-quality weapons, where India may have had more trouble supplying its armies.

Now, in Civ IV, modeling a conquest like this is tricky but possible. But you'll note that what the British did NOT do is deliberately neglect all their economic and social stuff so that they could concentrate all their energy on war.

No long-lasting major civilization has ever done this. There are barbarian tribes that concentrated on war, but they never managed to rule for very long without being absorbed by their conquerors. Huns invaded Europe and took half the Roman Empire- but lost it again in a matter of a few short years. Mongols spread out over most of Asia- but broke up into squabbling principalities and soon assimilated and went native in China, Russia, and the Middle East.

In Civ IV, most of the technologies don't just represent being able to make a specific thing. They represent institutions, the facilities to make things, the doctrines and techniques that tell you how to use them. And in general, when one civilization triumphs over another in real life, it's not just by having a few cool toys the other side doesn't. It's by having an across-the-board advantage in many areas.

Modeling that well requires a tightly interwoven tech tree. Because otherwise you get bizarre impossibilities like a bunch of primitives who can't print books and haven't got the hang of not emptying their chamberpots into their drinking water... but who have inexplicably figured out how to build tanks and jet bombers. Build, in great quantities, too- not just buy them.

Jarlaxe Baenre

Jun 25, 2012, 02:16 PM

I don't think this is in keeping with the nature of the mod, or for that matter the game in general.

Civ is about building a civilization, not an army (or for that matter a dance troupe). The entire purpose of the game is to be growing your civilization in multiple ways, so that it becomes systematically better over time- not to stay stuck in the Dark Ages in terms of economic and political structure, and impoverished in terms of culture, while somehow turning into a military supermonster. That is a deeply unrealistic, anti-historical thing.

In real life, powerful, successful civilizations succeed in multiple ways. To take an example- the British ruled over India for roughly 200 years; how did this happen. In Civilization terms, the British had many advantages.

-Ships: the British could sail to India, the Indians could not sail to Britain. This gave the British the freedom to engage or disengage with any part of the Indian subcontinent- if the ruler of one city drove them out, they could simply pack up their bags and sail to another one. No Indian ruler could actually prevent the British from bringing gold, troops, and influence to India as a whole.

-Resources: the British had a global empire and the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution at home. They could produce all sorts of goods, including things that no Indian had access to.

-Organization: India at the time was ruled by a decaying Mughal Empire in the north, which was so fallen-apart that it actively sold off tax collection and law enforcement rights over whole provinces to the British East India Company because they needed the money. And a large number of relatively small city-states and principalities in the south. No government in India had the strength to stand against the East India Company alone, not when the Company could simply ally with one local power bloc against another, play them off against each other, conquer the loser and co-opt the winner.

Meanwhile, Britain had a unified Parliament that could set laws and policies which gave the Company a very secure base and niche in the global empire Britain was building at the time. And the Company itself was much larger and more organized than any trading concern India had ever seen before. In short, India was disorganized for a number of reasons, Britain was organized.

-Weapons: this was actually one of the least important factors. Sure, the British had muskets and cannons, but so did the Indians, and by and large the British muskets of 1750 weren't obviously superior to the Indian muskets. About the only difference was the scale of production- Britain had dedicated arsenals turning out large numbers of reliable-quality weapons, where India may have had more trouble supplying its armies.

Now, in Civ IV, modeling a conquest like this is tricky but possible. But you'll note that what the British did NOT do is deliberately neglect all their economic and social stuff so that they could concentrate all their energy on war.

No long-lasting major civilization has ever done this. There are barbarian tribes that concentrated on war, but they never managed to rule for very long without being absorbed by their conquerors. Huns invaded Europe and took half the Roman Empire- but lost it again in a matter of a few short years. Mongols spread out over most of Asia- but broke up into squabbling principalities and soon assimilated and went native in China, Russia, and the Middle East.

In Civ IV, most of the technologies don't just represent being able to make a specific thing. They represent institutions, the facilities to make things, the doctrines and techniques that tell you how to use them. And in general, when one civilization triumphs over another in real life, it's not just by having a few cool toys the other side doesn't. It's by having an across-the-board advantage in many areas.

Modeling that well requires a tightly interwoven tech tree. Because otherwise you get bizarre impossibilities like a bunch of primitives who can't print books and haven't got the hang of not emptying their chamberpots into their drinking water... but who have inexplicably figured out how to build tanks and jet bombers. Build, in great quantities, too- not just buy them.

Ah, but it's too tightly woven right now. Geology requires... charter. Getting boats to go do things for you. That's a direct prerequisite.

Simon_Jester

Jun 26, 2012, 12:30 AM

You misunderstand Charter- didn't I write a Civilopedia entry for that thing?

"Charter" refers to early corporations, which generally got royal/parliamentary commissions to operate in a specific area. Most of them were overseas trading consortiums- the East India Company being an example, but far from the only one. The reason it enables Privateer and is generally nautical in its effects is that historically, there was a strong tie between the creation of these private entities and the spread of private warships and private mercantile interests across the world.

It does NOT mean "the idea of 'chartering' a boat."

Now, you might reasonably argue that even so it's not really relevant to the science of geology. That's a separate question...

In general, I DID notice that the current iteration of the tech tree has a very sharp bottleneck around Scientific Method: essentially every single tech in the row after it (or nearly all of them, anyway) depends on already having it.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I think Great Engineers should be able to discover Nanotechnology, Bionics, Cybernetics, and possibly Fusion. Those are all areas where even when the pure research is done, there are major engineering problems to tackle before the technology gets into widespread usage.

If we weren't committed to that neat taper in the Future era, it would be interesting to think about 'cultural' or economic technologies that might go in there. Personally I think Next War didn't go nearly far enough or think widely enough. :(

Azoth

Jun 26, 2012, 02:44 AM

The tech tree is tightly woven because it reflects the nature of the mod. That's true enough.

But, for my part, I would like to see more flexibility when it comes to discovering technologies with Great People. As it is, Great People can only discover technologies in the current or next row of the tech tree. (Sometimes, they cannot discover any technology at all.) This is rarely worthwhile, since players will soon research those technologies themselves. There are few opportunities for genuine "breakthroughs" like in BtS. I wonder if Great People could be programmed to ignore technology prerequisites. The priority list for discovering technologies would have to be rewritten; no one should stumble upon the Scientific Method in the Ancient Era. And yet, it does not seem unreasonable that a Great Scientist could discover Philosophy in the Ancient Era, in the absence of an established Priesthood; or that a Great Artist could discover Aesthetics, without a formal system of Philosophy.

Xyth

Jun 26, 2012, 04:24 AM

Ah, but it's too tightly woven right now. Geology requires... charter. Getting boats to go do things for you. That's a direct prerequisite.

Now, you might reasonably argue that even so it's not really relevant to the science of geology. That's a separate question...

In general, I DID notice that the current iteration of the tech tree has a very sharp bottleneck around Scientific Method: essentially every single tech in the row after it (or nearly all of them, anyway) depends on already having it.

The tech tree is tightly woven because it reflects the nature of the mod. That's true enough.

There's bound to be a few places in the tree that could be loosened up a little. Specific examples help, I'll look into Scientific Method but I don't consider Rifling to be an issue.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I think Great Engineers should be able to discover Nanotechnology, Bionics, Cybernetics, and possibly Fusion. Those are all areas where even when the pure research is done, there are major engineering problems to tackle before the technology gets into widespread usage.

I do need to review the Great Person techs again soon. Added to the todo list.

If we weren't committed to that neat taper in the Future era, it would be interesting to think about 'cultural' or economic technologies that might go in there. Personally I think Next War didn't go nearly far enough or think widely enough. :(

Yeah, Next War is pretty narrowly focused. I guess the name gives it away. I wouldn't mind expanding the Future Era at some point though, some of my earlier drafts of the tree had a much longer taper with a wider array of techs. I'd still want it to stay a 'near future' era though. Not a priority at this time though, still so much to do in the existing eras.

But, for my part, I would like to see more flexibility when it comes to discovering technologies with Great People. As it is, Great People can only discover technologies in the current or next row of the tech tree. (Sometimes, they cannot discover any technology at all.) This is rarely worthwhile, since players will soon research those technologies themselves. There are few opportunities for genuine "breakthroughs" like in BtS. I wonder if Great People could be programmed to ignore technology prerequisites. The priority list for discovering technologies would have to be rewritten; no one should stumble upon the Scientific Method in the Ancient Era. And yet, it does not seem unreasonable that a Great Scientist could discover Philosophy in the Ancient Era, in the absence of an established Priesthood; or that a Great Artist could discover Aesthetics, without a formal system of Philosophy.

That would require coding a new mechanic for tech discovery, as the existing one isn't accessible. Could be interesting if done carefully. Not a small task though.

Simon_Jester

Jun 26, 2012, 02:11 PM

There's bound to be a few places in the tree that could be loosened up a little. Specific examples help, I'll look into Scientific Method but I don't consider Rifling to be an issue.I'd have to give it some thought and experiment to be able to help.

I agree with Azoth about the Great Person thing. The tight-woven tech tree does have that effect- the number of techs a given Great Person can discover is about the same as in vanilla, but there are 50% more technologies which drives down the percentage of accessible technologies drastically. And then there's the prerequisite thing, which means that at a given time you may only have a few technologies available for research if you don't advance in a very, very smooth and uniform fashion across the tree.

I do need to review the Great Person techs again soon. Added to the todo list.I may be able to advise on that, but not right now.

Yeah, Next War is pretty narrowly focused. I guess the name gives it away. I wouldn't mind expanding the Future Era at some point though, some of my earlier drafts of the tree had a much longer taper with a wider array of techs. I'd still want it to stay a 'near future' era though. Not a priority at this time though, still so much to do in the existing eras.Yes, true. Although I'm not talking about adding super-futuristic stuff like hovertanks or whatnot. I'm thinking more in terms of adding more technology that reflects evolution of society and whatnot.

It'd be kind of cool if we could have something like Alpha Centauri's "Future Society" civics. As it is, most civics become available by the Industrial Age, so your society pretty much enters its final form in the local equivalent of 1900-1920 real time. And none of the civics really reflects any concept that postdates 1960- environmentalism and the civil rights movement.

Having a list of civics that reflect current or modern trends and how those trends are qualitatively different from what came before... that would be cool although difficult.

For some examples- look at various directions certain societies are evolving today. You've got the almost anarcho-capitalist sentiments best exemplified by parts of the American right, you've got the "surveillance state" possibility created by modern computer networks, with cameras everywhere and face recognition and police drones with sensors that can see people moving around behind walls. You've got other, more fanciful ideas- what about a "cyber-democracy," which implements direct democracy on a larger scale using computer networks? What about a society where we start using genetic engineering to tinker babies? That might only be twenty years down the road...

Hm. I don't know what to say.

Howard Mahler

Jun 28, 2012, 11:15 AM

As has been pointed out by others, links across the tech tree versus being able to beeline, is a tension. Too much beelining leads to a poor game in my opinion.
I think the current HR tree is close to the right mix.
At most stages you have several choices, but it is very hard to ignore other techs in a column for too long.
There may be a few places where things can be loosened, but it is very good overall currently. This represents significant tightening from very early versions.

Taking the tech tree too literally does not lead to a good game. Any tech tree is at best a rough approximation to a much more complicated real world. For example, some prerequisites will be less than obvious.

Azoth

Jun 30, 2012, 09:08 PM

Well, you knew this was coming. More quotes!
First, the technologies that lack quotes in 1.17: (Let's squeeze them in to 1.18.)

Alchemy
Current: NONE
Suggested: The laws of nature are just but terrible. The fire burns, the water drowns, the air consumes, the earth buries. -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Alchemy quotes are hard to find. This one talks about the four elements.

Automobile
Current: NONE
Suggested: Everything in life is somewhere else, and you get there in a car. -E. B. White

Combustion
Current: Everything in life is somewhere else, and you get there in a car. -E. B. White
Suggested: O, for an engine, to keep back all clocks, or make the sun forget its motion! -Ben Johnson

The current Combustion quote is perfect for the Automobile. Let's swap it for a quote about engines.

Cybernetics
Current: NONE
Suggested: If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. -Lyall Watson

Ethics
Current: NONE
Suggested: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become universal law. -Immanuel Kant

The Categorical Imperative, as stated in the Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals. A central concept in moral philosophy. Also: The Golden Rule.

Geology
Current: NONE
Suggested: Mountain peak or ocean floor, palace, or pigsty. There are plenty of ruined buildings in the world but no ruined stones. -Christopher Murray Grieve

Agriculture
Current: Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of civilization. -Daniel Webster
Suggested: The first farmer was the first man. All historic nobility rests on the possession and use of land. -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Horticulture
Current: NONE
Suggested: Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of civilization. -Daniel Webster

Both quotes mean basically the same thing but they were the best I could find.

Nobility
Current: NONE
Suggested: Nonsense is the privilege of the aristocracy. The worries of the world are for the common people. -George Jean Nathan

Lots and lots of options here. Let me know if you're looking for something specific.

Stirrups
Current: NONE
Suggested: Betwixt the stirrup and the ground / Mercy I asked, mercy I found. -William Camden

Satellites
Current: The earth is the cradle of the mind but one cannot eternally live in a cradle. -Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Suggested: NO CHANGE

Space Flight
Current: The earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind cannot stay in the cradle forever. -Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Suggested: That's one small step for man; one giant leap for humanity. -Neil Armstrong

We can't have two technologies with the same quote!

Azoth

Jun 30, 2012, 09:36 PM

And second, the technologies that could use new quotes:

Economics
Current: The price of any commodity rises and falls by the proportion of the number of buyers and sellers. -John Locke
Suggested: The engine which drives enterprise is not thrift but profit. -John Maynard Keynes

I think I originally suggested Locke but he is simply restating "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it" in different words. Keynes is better.

Fission
Current: I do not know how the third world war will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the fourth - rocks. -Albert Einstien
Suggested: If the radiance of a thousand suns were to bust forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendour of the mighty One. I am become Death, destroyer of worlds. -The Bhagavat Gita

Oppenheimer quoted the Bhagavat Gita when he witnessed the world's first nuclear test. The man knew his classics: the quote is used in BtS, and it was used in HR, when we had a separate Nuclear Power technology.

Fusion
Current: The discovery of nuclear reactions need not bring about the destruction of mankind any more than the discovery of matches. -Albert Einstein
Suggested: All stable processes we shall predict. All unstable processes we shall control. -John von Neumann

Since Fusion has yet to be discovered, I thought a forward-looking quote was more appropriate.

Laser
Current: Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. -Douglas Adams
Suggested: Fill the fixed mind with all your toys, as thick and numberless as the gay motes that people the sunbeams. -John Milton

Sociology
Current: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? -Reg (John Cleese), 'The Life of Brian'
Suggested: The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it. -Karl Marx

Comedians are well and good, but I prefer the grand quote.

Superconductors
Current: What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome. -Friedrich Neitzsche
Suggested: Is it a fact - or have I dreamt it - that, by means of electricity, the world of matter has become a great nerve, vibrating thousands of miles in a breathless point of time? -Nathaniel Hawthorne

Nietzsche isn't talking about electrical resistance here. Hawthorne is.

Urban Planning
Current: The city must be beautiful, due advantage being taken of the hilly nature of the spot for grand or lovely prospects… -Pierre L'Enfant
Suggested: I found Rome a city of bricks and left it a city of marble. -Augustus Caesar

Snappy.

Xyth

Jul 02, 2012, 01:21 AM

Nobility is good, but let me know some of the other candidates. I added Geology, Horticulture, Stirrups, but I don't feel they're ideal. Didn't like Laser, uncertain about Sociology.

Everything else I like, and added when I re-uploaded 1.18 this afternoon.

Simon_Jester

Jul 02, 2012, 06:57 PM

Nitpick: in the Fission quote, it's "burst forth," not "bust forth."

Xyth

Jul 04, 2012, 10:22 PM

From the 1.17 thread:

Imo future tech is basically useless in this mod given the enormous amount of health and happiness bonuses you can get from elsewhere. Is it possible to code a random chance benefit for future tech? Like it randomly adds extra culture/espionage/units/build modifiers/corporate bonuses/other random things?

Random benefits for Future Tech is a good idea. Added to the todo list.

Simon_Jester

Jul 07, 2012, 02:10 AM

Yeah the urban planning quote is better. I came up with the previous one, and it was 'best I could do.' Augustus' quote nails things for the ages; L'Enfant is only interesting if you know in advance he was talking about Washington, D.C. which is at least now a city of world significance.

Nightstar

Jul 19, 2012, 02:23 PM

Simon_Jester

Jul 20, 2012, 02:55 PM

I agree- that's part of what we were talking about some time ago with the very tight crosslinking. At Scientific Method, you basically can't research much of anything in the row beyond it, without first getting Scientific Method.

Xyth

Jul 20, 2012, 05:47 PM

A couple of minor snarls in the tech tree:

Constitution currently requires Education and Finance, but Finance itself *also* requires Education via Patronage.

Similarly, Biology currently requires Scientific Method and Sanitation, but Sanitation already requires Scientific Method via Hydraulics and Geology.

I agree- that's part of what we were talking about some time ago with the very tight crosslinking. At Scientific Method, you basically can't research much of anything in the row beyond it, without first getting Scientific Method.

Yeah, this section of the tech tree needs some reconfiguring. I'll definitely address it for 1.19. Please let me know if you spot any other snarls like these.

Nightstar

Jul 21, 2012, 01:41 PM

Two more snarls:

Aesthetics requires Mathematics and Philosophy, but Philosophy already requires Mathematics via Astronomy.
Sanitation requires Urban Planning, Humanism, and Hydraulics, but Hydraulics already requires Humanism via Geology and Scientific Method.

There are also a number of bottlenecks (defined as techs that are required for five or more of the ones in the next column) which I suspect are also the prime culprits behind the snarls:

Only two 3rd column Classical techs can be researched without Philosophy (Milling and Nobility).
Only two 1st column Medieval techs can be researched without Nobility (Stirrups and Machinery).
Only one 3rd column Medieval tech can be researched without Education (Horticulture).
Only two 2nd column Renaissance techs can be researched without Charter (Firearms and Scientific Method).
Only one 3rd column Renaissance tech can be researched without Scientific Method (Replaceable Parts).
Only one 2nd column Modern tech can be researched without Atomic Physics (Globalization).

Much of the problem is the way so many techs have crosslinked prerequisites in the same column (and Sanitation actually requires one a column *ahead* of it), resulting in some rather convoluted tech lines. The worst example is probably in the Renaissance with the six deep line Optics > Scientific Method > Geology > Hydraulics > Sanitation > Sociology, all of which are technically in a single three column era. (While there's another six deep line in the Modern era with Atomic Physics > Electronics > Computers > Space Flight > Satellites > Telecommunications, many games will already be over before getting that deep in the tree, so it's not quite as much of an issue.)

Absolution

Jul 23, 2012, 02:05 AM

Don't you think the Wheel is discovered too late?
The farms and the pastures are useless without roads.

Simon_Jester

Jul 23, 2012, 05:42 PM

I would like to advise on these bottlenecks, but I need some time to think things through...

Simon_Jester

Jul 24, 2012, 06:15 PM

Hm. And we should be able to get rid of a few of these weird bottlenecks.

First up, Philosophy. Which, yes, is tied to most of the stuff in the next row. Not just Politics and Ethics (which make LOTS of sense, and have it as a direct prerequisite). You need it for Artisanry and Architecture (via Aesthetics) and Steel Working of all things (via Alchemy). That's five of the seven techs in the next row. I get the desire to make it impossible to build up a mighty Heavy Footman/Forge military-industrial complex without having first researched the 'social' techs on the bottom half of the tree. But this takes the principle a little far.

So to review, your "problem child" techs are Alchemy and Aesthetics, both of which have Philosophy as a same-tier prerequisite.

How about making Writing a prerequisite for Alchemy, instead of Philosophy? Writing is much 'lower' on the tree and requires less of a concerted effort to reach, so it's less intrusive as a prerequisite. It's also in the tier behind Alchemy, which is good on general principles.

However, I also suggest that you make Dromons require Shipbuilding again- because Shipbuilding will no longer be a prerequisite for Alchemy. Galleasses don't need to change; since Cartography is a prerequisite for Logistics, you basically can't discover Gunpowder without having pushed your 'social' research all the way up into the High Middle or Early Renaissance ages.

For Aesthetics, how about making Priesthood the prerequisite instead of Philosophy? Again, it's the tech immediately before, so you're getting some of the same benefit, but I don't have to research everything in the bottom half of the tree just to build a Weaver. This is nice because the bottom row of techs are pretty blatantly naval: it makes sense to neglect them on a landlocked map, because they provide relatively little benefit. The only really worthwhile thing down there is the Nazca Lines, if you don't have much of a coast.

Next problem is Nobility. Having Civil Service, Guilds, and Land Tenure require it makes sense. The problem is that Ethics requires you to research it (why is a warrior aristocracy necessary for a civilization to develop enlightened ethical theories?). And through Ethics, you need Nobility to get Medicine and Theology.

We can fix this easily enough- use Law instead of Nobility as a prerequisite for Ethics. If you think about ethical systems like Confucianism this makes a lot of sense (no warrior elite there). And arguably the concept of universal law is much more important to the evolution of philosophy than the concept of an 'elite' of specially empowered individuals.

So there. Three changes: Ethics has Law instead of Nobility as a prerequisite. Alchemy has Writing instead of Philosophy. And Aesthetics has Priesthood instead of Philosophy.

Xyth

Jul 24, 2012, 06:20 PM

Aesthetics requires Mathematics and Philosophy, but Philosophy already requires Mathematics via Astronomy.

Only two 3rd column Classical techs can be researched without Philosophy (Milling and Nobility).

I've addressed these by making Aesthetics require Priesthood instead of Philosophy. Aesthetics no longer requires Mathematics twice and you can now research Milling, Architecture, Artisanry, and Nobility without Philosophy.

Only two 1st column Medieval techs can be researched without Nobility (Stirrups and Machinery).

Addressed this by making Land Tenure require Politics instead of Nobility. Unrelated, I'm also changing Medicine to require Alchemy instead of Plumbing.

Constitution currently requires Education and Finance, but Finance itself *also* requires Education via Patronage.

Only one 3rd column Medieval tech can be researched without Education (Horticulture).

Fixed these by shifting the Education prerequisite from Patronage to Finance, and making Constitution require Patronage instead of Finance. No more snarl, and you can now research Logistics, Horticulture, and Cartography without Education.

That was the easy ones, I'll take a look at the much more convoluted Renaissance next.

Don't you think the Wheel is discovered too late?
The farms and the pastures are useless without roads.

You still get the tile yield, the improvement yield, and the resource yield. It's really just the happiness and/or health that you don't get straight away. I think its fine.

Simon_Jester

Jul 24, 2012, 06:58 PM

Let me try a couple more.

Our next problem is Education. It makes sense that Printing, Constitution, and Evangelism need it (especially if you think about the tie between printing and early universities in Europe). The real problem is that Patronage requires Education, because Patronage is a prerequisite for Cartography, Finance, and Logistics.

The idea of aristocratic patronage doesn't seem automatically linked to having large institutions of higher learning kicking around. But we need a 'bottom half' prerequisite for Patronage anyway... how about Theology? Or Civil Service?

That offers us an interesting alternative to the idea of purely aristocratic patronage, in that an organized church or a bureaucracy can also subsidize things like voyages of exploration. It gives us the same purpose, moves the prerequisites so that you don't need anything else in the same tier to get Patronage, and generally removes the severe Education bottleneck.

Next we have Charter.

It's very logical that Corporation needs Charter. Meteorology is also a good candidate, because Meteorology arises in the 'naval' context, and Charter represents the rise of the great intercontinental mercantile concerns. Without something like the East India Company, there's not much incentive to rule the waves and develop such extensive knowledge of sea and weather. I can work with that.

Now, Geology is arguably a bad choice- there's nothing inherent in the science of Geology that should force it to be a follow-on to Charter, as far as I can tell. But ultimately it's not the 'real' problem. The real problem is twofold.

One is that Urban Planning, in the same tier as Charter, requires Charter- and therefore you need Charter to get Civil Liberties. Since Civil Liberties already has Economics as a prerequisite, this seems kind of pointless.

We could fix that by having Urban Planning need Cartography (which would make sense) or Finance (which would make sense). It could even be an either/or prereq: needs X, Y, and A OR B, not necessarily both A and B.

The other problem is Sanitation, which ties into the Scientific Method bottleneck I was about to take care of anyway.

The Scientific Method bottleneck is one I explicitly flagged for your attention. Basically, the idea that you 'need' science to proceed in any area of human endeavour makes sense, but it's not good for gameplay to have a single technology that 'unlocks' everything that comes after itself.

Having the three 'traditional science' techs of Physics, Chemistry, and Biology all depend on Scientific Method makes sense, so let's keep that.

The real problem here is that Geology needs Scientific Method, despite being in the same tier. This has knock-on effects, because you then need Geology to get Metallurgy, Hydraulics, and Sanitation (which is in the SAME TIER as Scientific Method, despite the fact that you need three techs in Sanitation's own tier and one in the tier beyond it in order to research it). And Sociology, which requires Sanitation.

But Sociology is itself a science- the science of studying society. That's something where you can (again) make a case for Scientific Method being a prerequisite in its own right, not by way of Sanitation.

So either Sanitation needs to be pushed farther along the tree, which would be disruptive, or we just need to rearrange things. What we really need is to decouple Scientific Method from Geology. That lets us research Metallurgy and Hydraulics without Scientific Method and breaks the bottleneck.

How about making Geology depend on Gunpowder? Gunpowder made mining a lot easier, and that did a lot to catalyze advances in our understanding of rock and geological forces. Gunpowder is also already a prerequisite for Scientific Method, so we're following our customary pattern of simply moving the prerequisite "one step backward" along the tree.

However, let us also change Sociology to require Scientific Method. This restores some of the bottlenecking, but I feel it's necessary here, because of the very strong tie between the founding of sociology and the idea of scientific study of how it worked. As opposed to earlier models of "this is how it works, so this is how the gods want it" or whatever.

And last up, Atomic Physics. You need Atomic to get Fission, well no surprise there, that's fine. Having it be a condition for Pharmaceuticals- I can kind of see that

The problem is that you need it to get almost everything else- Space Flight, Radar, Automation, Computers, and Pharmaceuticals. As noted, the only tech in the row beyond Atomic Physics that doesn't need it is Globalization. So what's the problem?

Electronics requires Atomic Physics, Computers require Electronics, and three other techs in that row require Computers or Electronics.

Here's my advice. Remove the Computers requirement for Space Flight; it makes sense but isn't really necessary. Make Computers a prerequsite for Satellites instead- you really need more automation for a satellite constellation than you do for manned space missions to the Moon, in a way, because there's no human being to fix the satellite if it breaks.

That doesn't really remove the bottleneck, but it makes it less annoying because you only need Atomic Physics for four techs instead of five.

So to review:

-Make Patronage require Theology or Civil Service, INSTEAD OF Education
-Make Urban Planning need Cartography or Finance, INSTEAD OF Charter
-Make Geology require Gunpowder, INSTEAD OF Scientific Method
-Make Sociology require Scientific Method (?)
-Make Space Flight NOT require Computers. Instead, make Satellites require Computers.

Simon_Jester

Jul 24, 2012, 06:59 PM

[looks at Xyth's solutions]

...Great minds think alike?

Anyway, I hope you'll take my ideas for the more advanced eras under consideration...

Xyth

Jul 24, 2012, 09:25 PM

[looks at Xyth's solutions]

...Great minds think alike?

Anyway, I hope you'll take my ideas for the more advanced eras under consideration...

Always nice when cross-posting compatible ideas! :)

How about making Writing a prerequisite for Alchemy, instead of Philosophy? Writing is much 'lower' on the tree and requires less of a concerted effort to reach, so it's less intrusive as a prerequisite. It's also in the tier behind Alchemy, which is good on general principles.

This makes sense, but you also touch on the reason why I can't make this particular change:

I get the desire to make it impossible to build up a mighty Heavy Footman/Forge military-industrial complex without having first researched the 'social' techs on the bottom half of the tree. But this takes the principle a little far.

That Philosophy --> Alchemy cross link is crucial in pacing the top, more militaristic, part of the tree. In that instance its not just about delaying Heavy Footmen and Forges, its also about delaying the onset of the Medieval Era: once you have Steel Working it takes just 2 more techs to get Stirrups.

I try to make each tech in the first column of each era* require a vaguely similar number of technologies in total. I've found this a useful way to regulate progress through the eras, hindering beelining through eras and encouraging research different areas of research. A lot of crosslinks were added with this in mind. Currently that first Medieval column requires 34 - 38 previous techs. Dropping Philosophy from the Alchemy requirements would reduce Stirrups to just 27 previous techs; I don't mind broadening the range a bit, but that's much too low in comparison to the other techs.

Ultimately, if we dropped Philosophy from Alchemy, we'd still need to link other techs at the top of the tree to techs from the bottom, in order to preserve pacing. Nothing else I've tried works as well or as tidily as Philosophy ---> Alchemy. Im always open to suggestions though.

* The exception is the Ancient to Classical transition; it just doesn't feel fun or realistic there. This also contributes somewhat to the large 'leap' between Iron Working and Alchemy.

For Aesthetics, how about making Priesthood the prerequisite instead of Philosophy? Again, it's the tech immediately before, so you're getting some of the same benefit, but I don't have to research everything in the bottom half of the tree just to build a Weaver. This is nice because the bottom row of techs are pretty blatantly naval: it makes sense to neglect them on a landlocked map, because they provide relatively little benefit. The only really worthwhile thing down there is the Nazca Lines, if you don't have much of a coast.

Done. Alchemy needs the tie-ins, but Aesthetics didn't.

Next problem is Nobility. Having Civil Service, Guilds, and Land Tenure require it makes sense. The problem is that Ethics requires you to research it (why is a warrior aristocracy necessary for a civilization to develop enlightened ethical theories?). And through Ethics, you need Nobility to get Medicine and Theology.

We can fix this easily enough- use Law instead of Nobility as a prerequisite for Ethics. If you think about ethical systems like Confucianism this makes a lot of sense (no warrior elite there). And arguably the concept of universal law is much more important to the evolution of philosophy than the concept of an 'elite' of specially empowered individuals.

I considered that, it makes sense. Two issues though: firstly, it made Ethics and Politics have the exact same prerequisites, and secondly, it made it too easy to reach the Medieval era via Theology relative to other techs. If we could find a suitable crosslink for Theology it would work, but I don't see anything that fits.

As mentioned earlier I've opted to make Land Tenure require Politics instead of Nobility, which also solves the issue.

Our next problem is Education. It makes sense that Printing, Constitution, and Evangelism need it (especially if you think about the tie between printing and early universities in Europe). The real problem is that Patronage requires Education, because Patronage is a prerequisite for Cartography, Finance, and Logistics.

The idea of aristocratic patronage doesn't seem automatically linked to having large institutions of higher learning kicking around. But we need a 'bottom half' prerequisite for Patronage anyway... how about Theology? Or Civil Service?

That offers us an interesting alternative to the idea of purely aristocratic patronage, in that an organized church or a bureaucracy can also subsidize things like voyages of exploration. It gives us the same purpose, moves the prerequisites so that you don't need anything else in the same tier to get Patronage, and generally removes the severe Education bottleneck.

I like Theology --> Patronage, I'll add that in addition to my other changes in this area.

Still experimenting with and reviewing the later changes.