The idea for this SG is Ancient War - we get to expand in the beginning, then go to an always war/ oscillating war game where we don't have to be at war with everyone all the time, but do have to be at war with at least one opponent at all times, and no Phoney wars (i.e. they must not be too remote)! Note this means war at all times, we must be at war with someone before making peace with anyone. This will make it possible to do pointy stick research, which I think is necessary. Our main object will be to win through conquest or domination as quickly as possible. I am starting this game to enter the ranks of SG's that will have a good chance of losing. So understand that this is _very_ challenging. I have not played this scenario out before and don't even know just how challenging (or possible). Being able to handle a typical Diety game with alacrity is a must.

My choices for the game so far (mostly open to debate): Pangea, average land ratio, average age, standard map size, standard # of opponents, Diety. We will be the Fighting Iroquois :) , at some point a great wizard will arise from our midst to lead us to our destiny! The wizard will give our Horsemen unusual strength and help us to overcome any production deficit we may have. As soon as we produce a MW (or half of known civ's have horseback riding) we will shift into the conquest mode. Such conquest as the world has never seen!

We are not restricted to honorable play, but no massive RoP rape will be tolerated. We are the Fighting Iroquoi, but not the 'taking unfair advantage of the AI' Iroquoi. So you will be asked to use your judgement here.

So, my plan (if I get any interested players) is to start this one tonight and post my first turns in the morning. I will play 20 turns, then everyone will go 10 after that.

Oh, I also want to say that this game will be played with a strict 24 hr. 'I got it' and an only slightly flexible 48 hr. play period. The slightly flexible refers to people who post to request a time extension, no problem there. But I don't want to be left hanging. If the game goes on long enough we may switch to flexible turn length (5-10 turns) to help out.

It's been 24 hours and no takers, well this SG may die an untimely death. But I haven't given up on it yet 'Let hope survive!'.

I generated a game before my commute this morning but haven't played it yet, here is what it looks like.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/FIstart.jpg

I intend to play 20 turns tonight and post either tonight or in the morning.

The commitment would kill me. I have an SG, the tourney, gotm, 7 pbem's and also behind-the-scenes at the tourney to deal with, on top of my _real_ work (that doesn't finish until 7pm)...

I would like to play, but I can not commit to playing 20 turns in a 48 hour period. Maybe if there are few takers it could be postponed for a couple of weeks. I think by then it will have all died down a bit, and I could join.

If not, have fun. It certainly looks like a challenge ;)

No problem anarres, if I don't get any takers - I'll bump it back up in a couple weeks and see what happens. My intent is to have 10 turn rounds, or even less once things start to heat up. I am just going to play 20 to start. I do like to have the 24/48 rule in place though. Otherwise, I feel it's too long between an individual players turns and the flow is lost. In this game especially, flow will be critical.

If you are *very* desperate, I can join. I have won three times on Emperor now (siggy), busy with a cleanup on Deity.

Note: the player posting this has started and lost 4 SGs and 2 NESes.
Note: My Deity Cleanup is where I conquered 2 nations so far. However, my main rival conquered 4, and has 200+ Mech Infantry. But I have the Hoover Dam and Modern Armor.

If I play, I will run max research on Wheel, buy Warrior Code, run min sci on Horseback Riding, upgrade several chariots to MWs.

Erik, I haven't hit desperation yet but if you feel upto playing then you can play! It is just a game after all, and we're in it to have some fun. As I say above, we may lose this one - it's quite a challenge. We shall see...

Your initial plan sounds good. That is more or less what I am planning to do (I was planning to play the first 20 myself) - always flexible though depending on what situation I find myself in.

Gothmog,

Your game sounds like a very interesting challenge. I am sorry to see that you get such few responses.

I can not apply for this game as I lack Deity experience and as I am currently committed with my own SG (I do not have the time to play two SGs), but I wish you good luck for it. Be sure to find me in the lurking crowd! :)

-Physicist

I would like to play, but I rarely play Deity. I prefer Monarch w/o mm, Emperor sometimes with moderate mm. So you know I would need some guidance as I am kinda out of training on that level....

Gothmog,

As I was/am interested in Charis' SG, I am also interested in this one (the start position looks nice...). But, 1) I am not a particularly strong warmonger and 2) I am quite worried about overcommitting myself (I am currently preparing for my PhD qualifying exam, new gf, playing in RBE6...).

So, if enough people are interested (such that this won't be a huge time committment), I'll play.

JMB

Hey all, thanks for the words of encouragement.

Physicist, I've been lurking your game too - it's got style.

Killer, you are more than welcome to play. As it's an ancient war game our cities probably wont get too big and the MM shouldn't be too bad.

JMB, I've lurked in your games too and I am sure you would have no problem with the warmongering aspects. But I understand about not wanting to overcommit. Again, I don't expect this to be too big a time commitment because we hope to end it quickly, hopefully before Industrial times! If it gets intense we'll go to the 5-10 turn players choice. No pressure, play if you want to. Good luck on your qualifier, those were the days...

I've played the first 20 turns and not only is our starting position nice, we have a unique geography well suited to the game and I got my best start as an expansionist ever! I'll be posting the whole deal in the morning, got to get some sleep now.

:thumbsup:

I can hardly wait :D worker grabs, setller hunts :D

A couple of notes before the tale begins, barbarians have been set on Raging. I meant to change this to sedentary but apparently forgot. The world is warm and wet, as suggested by meldor, to help isolate our people. The starting place is non-culturally linked because in my test runs I would always meet the Aztec (also expansionistic), and they were getting lots of my huts. We have a very strange start, I met the first other civ in 3100 BC, maybe the warm wet is doing its work. We may be on an easily defended outcrop of the main landmass, but we don’t know about our northern reaches yet. I am very encouraged by this start. My greatest wish is that we have access to horses.

The year is 4000 BC, all is quiet. Scattered bands of humans dot the landscape. Then, out of nowhere a profit emerges, Hiawatha Tarenyawagon. He has spoken to the lord, and has been given tools to help unite the people. Plans for a great Palace are etched in his mind, rules governing certain rituals consistent with the lords desires, and an understanding of how to make objects suitable for the storage of food and water are within his understanding. His burden is to expand over the landscape, securing a homeland for his people. It is told that in in the future another profit will emerge and describe a plan to spread over the world conquering all who stand in the way. When that task is complete the world will become a paradise, and all will live in abundance and bliss. But that is for another day, here the story of the chosen people begins.

Hiawatha, gathers his people together and tells them that they are heading south into the hills, away from the desert and off of the flood planes. There they will live in caves while they complete the Palace that will be the center of Iroquoi culture. He leaves behind a small group to start building farms along the flood planes. Then they will be tasked to build a road to help bring the food into the hills. Hiawatha says that the hills will help provide a natural defense for their new town (which he calls Salamanca) against barbarians and any others who would try to destroy them. He also sends out a group of young men to scout the surrounding countryside. He tells them that their task is very important and they may learn more from hut dwellers than one might expect. They should try to unite these hut dwellers into the growing Iroquoi nation. Upon completion of the Palace, Hiawatha gathers together his tribal wise men and tells them of a vision he has been given of a round object which can be used to move objects more easily from one place to another. Also, he has seen that this object has something to do with horses, but what he cannot guess. So his wise men study the meaning of this vision with the great ferocity that is the trademark of the Iroquoi people. He then gathers his fastest runners together and starts training them to continue the Iroquoi tradition of scouting. Hiawatha is frugal and allows no food or work to go to waste. In the year 3750 BC, reports come back of a significant bottleneck in the lay of the land. Hiawatha orders his scouts to move through the bottleneck and explore the greater world beyond. In 3550 BC the wisdom of Hiawatha is once again confirmed when his scouts meet a tribe of hut dwellers who are advanced beyond all expectations and are convinced to join the Iroquoi nation! The new town is called Niagra Falls. Salamanca is growing and Hiawatha orders 20% of all production funneled to the increased happiness of his people. In the year 3450 a second group of hut dweller is discovered east of Niagra Falls, when the scouts tell them of the Wisdom of Hiawatha and his visions they decide they too want to join the Iroquoi nation. Hiawatha decrees that they should move out of the hills they formerly inhabited and form a new city along a river in a land where grapes grow in abundance. They are exceedingly happy and form the town of Grand River. A group of scouts have finished training. Hiawatha decides that, although there have been no signs of hostile natives yet, the Iroquoi people need defenders. So a group of strong men begin training with the axe, yet another innovation of the great visionary Hiawatha. The year 3300 is another watershed as two more groups of huts are discovered. One of the tribes is a vicious fighting people who have been waiting for a great leader like Hiawatha to organize them into a fighting unit. Hiawatha decrees that they shall be given axes and sent to Grand River as protectors. The second tribe is wise indeed, and Hiawatha learns knowledge of a code of war. This code includes a wondrous weapon capable of projecting violence a goodly distance, the bow. So Hiawatha modifies the training of his warriors in Salamanca to include the use of this weapon. This should make it possible to defeat any barbarian tribes that might threaten Salamanca. As if in response to his thinking, a scout reports that he is being threatened by such a group of barbarians. Hiawatha appeals to the lord to let his scouts escape unharmed, and the lord answers his prayers. In the year 3100 the scouts report meeting an organized group of people who call themselves the Koreans. They are an exceedingly wise people, with knowledge of bronze and a systematic way of recording information on clay tablets. Hiawatha knows that they will eventually become part of the great Iroquoi nation. They have no knowledge of the Wheel though, and trading knowledge may become a possibility before they are absorbed.

Final advice, I have started a racks in Niagra Falls, feel free to change this if you feel it’s appropriate. Salamanca has a good variety of tiles and should be MMed. Wines should come online in Salamanca soon, and once that spot is mined it will be a great one. It may be best to start a granary in Salamanca once the archer finishes. We already have three cities, and control a bottleneck between us and Korea. Who knows, we might pop another settler. If you do decide to go for another settler directly, remember to change that production to something else before popping any more huts. I constructed a quick dotmap. This is not gospel, feel free to use your own initiative. We do want a semi-dense build. The colors are mostly arbitrary. The purple cities will be powerhouses, the others are rough priority of red,gold,blue. The map should be looked over when we discover the Wheel and possibly adjusted for horses (although I have most of the possible squares in play already).

A screen shot of our empire.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/grid.jpg


a possible dotmap

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/dots.jpg


and the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/gm1_ancientwar_3000bc.zip

double post. :blush:

From the responces so far I will put up a tentative play order.

Gothmog (just played)
Eric Mesoy (up now)
Lt. Killer (on deck)
JMB (if he wants, must confirm interest)
????

I would still like one more player in case JMB needs to be skipped at times.

Note that we are going to 10 turns per player now.

this is unbelievable! I have hardly ever seen such a good deity start, unless I could run over an opponent quickly.

I just typed a 'let me in' post, but I realise that it really isn't feasable :cry:

Oh well, at least I am learning to limit myself ;) :rolleyes:

Have much fun, I will be watching with interest. If anyone drops out I may be able to join at a slightly later date.

anarres, yes this start does look delectable doesn't it? Hard to resist. So far I only have three players (including myself) + one maybe (JMB). Let me know anytime you want in, you were there at the conception afterall.

Killer, I agree totally unbelievable - actually this great start has probably moved effective the difficulty level down to Emperor, but we'll take it. :yeah: I am guessing this is payback for the many times I played as expansionist and got diddley for my efforts. I had given up on them well before PTW came out. But reading some peoples comments in the S&T forum (notably TheNiceOne and Aeston), I decided to give it another go. Glad I did! :lol:
I don't know where everyone is, but I hope they are fighting it out. :groucho:

Gothmog,

Sorry about not confirming earlier... I will play. So, now that we've met the Koreans, after we make a trade (if we can...) we are declaring war right?

JMB

All right JMB, glad to have you on board, and glad you brought this up. I meant to have some discussion on this point before starting anyway.

This game is not oscillating war but ancient war, with the idea being we get some time to expand before having to declare war on anyone. This arose from my AW test runs where I would only have two cities and be at war with 3-4 other civs. I think a few more cities are a must! My first instinct was to put a time limit on expansion - say 2000 AD. But as the pace of games varies so much I decided on a relevant milestone. In this case (quoted from my first post in this thread):
"As soon as we produce a MW (or half of known civ's have horseback riding) we will shift into the conquest mode."
I assume that half of known civs will have horseback riding before we do, but put in the MW production because as an expansionist civ there was some remote chance that we would actually get it first (e.g. researching alphabet and meanwhile getting 5-7 techs from huts). This ruleset will force us into one war before our MW becomes the dominant force of the ancient age. I am hoping to make use of the expansionist trait to get alot more map info and some tech swapping opportunities before we make some lifelong enemies. Otherwise I would have chosen the Romans, or Celts as our civ.

So, what does everyone think of my starting line for conquest? Is it OK? Too soft? Would 2000 BC be better? Should we wait until we have HB ourselves? Other suggestions?

Finally I just want to say that I will be abit flexible on the 'I got it' timescale because we have a couple of european players here.

Edit: I do agree with Erik Mesoy that we should build chariots for upgrade to MW's as an initial strategy.

Looks like an interesting game! I'd love to be able to play, but I've already expressed interest in Sullla's game, and I don't think I have enough time to commit to two.

I'm currently playing a solo always war game on Deity, and though I've almost made it to the industrial age, I think I'm going to lose. It'll be alot less harsh when you can actually trade with some of the enemis some of the time. If I could just do a few trades in my AW game I think I could squeeze out a win, but like it is, I think I'm going to lose...

-Sirp.

Gothmog, Killer has been banned for a week after a disagreement with AoA in OT.

I suggest you email him the save, or maybe just to see if he is still in. I have PM'd his email to you.

Re Sirp: I'm impressed that you even made it to the industrial age in an AW game. I ran a few tests and it was really hard going. I didn't play any "to the bitter end" because I was really just testing the initial phase. Those tests led to having the initial period of expansion. Looking into the future of those tests I did not see how I could possibly do OK in tech. It seemed they would certainly have rifles just as I got Knights. So I chickened out and allowed us to just be at war with one civ at a time. As much for the extortion of tech as for the tech trading. If this one goes well, I would like to try an always war game with the initial expansion period still in place. Or maybe :hmm: , one where you could be at peace with only one civ at a time - as a compromise - before a true AW game.

Re anarres: woah, emotions were running high in that thread. It seems to me that Killer was among the voices of reason there, but this is not a Democracy (nor Anarchy) so ... Thanks for the update, I'll e-mail him the save for sure.

All: Erik still hasn't showed, I'll give him another 8 hours or so. Then I'll move him below JMB in the rotation if he hasn't showed. I'll e-mail killer tonight with an update either way.

I would have got it now, but it happens to be PTW, which you did not mention and I have not got.
Very sorry. :wallbash: <--me
:rolleyes: <--you
:lol: <--spectators

Whoa, Erik no PTW. Sorry to hear that. I guess we're down to three then. Killer's up. I'll e-mail him ASAP.

Edit: wait a second I could have sworn I just saw Lt. Killer M. browsing this forum.

Killer are you here?

Gothmog - Killers ban has been reduced to 3 days, which means he has 2 days left. :)

AFAIK, banned people can browse and send/recieve PM's, but not post, so you should be able to continue via PM or email.

Thanks anarres, I guess it was the 'ghost' of Killer. :)

Gothmog: Well, the map settings I used are small map, four opponents, archipelago, with the condition that I would restart if I was on the same landmass as an opponent. That obviously avoids the enemies-march-into-your-capital loss in 2000BC.

But still, it's a *tough* challenge. You don't get to trade for luxuries or technology. You have to sieze enough land to get a decent number of luxuries and resources; defending that many islands against enemy attack is damn hard.

I'm now two technologies away from the industrial age, but I'm in big trouble: I've had to abandon about 7 cities rather than let them be captured by the AI. The little navy I have is all locked up in port, cause otherwise the AI navies would utterly wipe them out. My coastline is getting bombarded the whole time, and I'm behind on technologies, unsure if I can make up the difference.

I was thinking of an idea for a game that is just one little step below AW:

Our civilization is superior to all others. We demand tribute from them all. With every civilization we meet, we renegotiate peace, and they must give us concessions for it. After 20 turns, we must renegotiate peace and gain more concessions. Anyone who does not pay us for peace (i.e. give us tribute) we will go to war with until they do pay us for peace.

I'd imagine that this would still be tough, and would probably have to be done on an island map, but it would give you a little more hope. I checked in my AW game, and if I could make peace, I could get a couple of crucial techs as tribute.

But, I have made some crucial mistakes in the game. If I had done a couple of things better, I think it could be a win. Maybe it will still be a win. If I don't have access to coal though, I think I'm dead in the water.

As for doing any kind of increased-war game where you have continental rivals, on Deity, it's tough; damn tough.

Sorry to hijack the thread :)

-Sirp.

Sounds good Sirp, although I am not sure at what point our civ will actually become superior. From what I understand of peace renegotiation you have to have more power than you victim. Otherwise they want something from you! But kill a few of their units and they come around. So this would be a interesting sort of OW varient.

No problem on the hijack, let me know if you want to play a few turns! ;)

Gothmog: If you inflict sufficient damage on them, they will start giving you tribute. See for example Charis's 5cc thread in the stories section. The way he got up on tech was by forcing the AI to give concessions for peace all the time. Basically though, it'd be *very* close to Always War, and I tend to doubt it'd be doable on anything but an island map; don't get me wrong, it's still a vicious variant.

I would like to play this game, but I'm saying now that I'm not sure I'll be able to see it through to the end. If you're still happy for me to play with those reservations, then I'm in!

-Sirp.

I read Charis's 5cc thread with interest. A fun game and great read.

Sirp, we would love to have you in this game - especially as we are down to three players. As long as you let me know beforehand by posting I don't mind if you have to drop out.

JMB, I haven't heard from killer (his ban should be over soon) - although I e-mailed him the save yesterday. So, if you have time why don't you take it (10 turns at this phase will go very fast) - then depending on when you get back to us I'll decide on Sirp or killer next. That will become the permanent play order.

Ok, I've got it. I should have it back somethime this afternoon/evening...

JMB

Gothmog: Ok, I'm in then :)

slot me in the roster whereever you feel appropriate

0 - Change NF to warrior. we really need some MP units, especially since Korea is near these cities.

1 - Set Sal to produce granary. Korea has learned the wheel. We will now get it in 4 turns, so I decide not to purchase it.

2 - Not much.

3 - Contact with England (for some reason, she appears to be using warriors to explore... Maybe it is because she is in the middle of so much jungle...)

4 - We get 25 gold from a goody hut. Around the goody hut, there are a bunch of dyes in the jungle. We will want to secure these dyes soon... We learn the secrets of the Wheel and it appears that we have 2 potential sources of horses (although, they will likely take awhile to hook up...).

5 - Alphabet from England for the Wheel and 33 gold. Decide to switch from min sci on HBR to writing (I am sure one of the other AIs will discover HBR before we do... If I could have gotten Masonry off of the Koreans, I would have started Mathematics). Wang Kon is up Masonry on us and England.

6 - Another settler wants to join us! (I have never gotten so many settlers out of huts...) I am sending the settler we got from the goody hut back home mainly because he is way too far out to be anything other than a liability to us where we found him. I think he should probably be sent through the choke and found a city on the opposite side (perhaps the purple dot pointed out by Gothmog earlier...). Our archer takes out a barb warrior threatening our worker outside Sal.

7 through 10 - not much.

The worker outside NF is making a road towards GR and, more specifically, the wines. As near as I can tell, mining the bg tiles around GR does very little as the extra shields are lost to corruption. After GR produces its next worker (and the next leader can choose whether to swap to a temple before the worker completes), I suggest that we begin a temple in GR and whip it after 10 turns (to get the horses online sooner and prevent Korea or england settling aggressively on our borders). The more I think about it, I think we should change the worker in GR to a temple and whip the temple in 3 turns (don't worry about hooking up the horses though as we'll never be able to build many chariots (or MWs) in these corrupt cities.

We might want to do the same thing for NF (changing it from the barracks it is currently constructing...) as it is unlikely that we are going to get more than 1 spt out of there (and more population may help bring in more shields...)

We might want to consider sending one of our scouts in the east (probably the one furthest east) southeast as it seems like we might have hit the top end of our continent (around England).

We can probably MM Sal a bit to get the granary out a bit sooner (without decreasing our growth rate), but make sure that the granary completes before we grow. Also, after we complete the granary, I suggest that we build another worker (or two, to begin mining the bg tiles to the south of Sal) before beginning a settler (we will want to cycle between 3 and 5 or 4 and 6, but not 5 and 7). Once we begin making settlers, Sal will have to be MMed for food 4-4-2 to minimize waste.

As for future city locations, I think we should prioritize the dyes to our N, the horses to our nw, the cow to our sw and the furs to our se. Personally, I think our first settler should take the site SE, SE, SE, E of Sal (across the river from the furs and on the ocean) Personally, I don't think we'll need to worry about not having the furs in range right away because it should be pretty easy for us to whip a temple in said city (or let the cultural push from our capital bring them within our range). We could certainly use the culture...

Once we get Masonry, city walls will be very important in GR and NF.

Our map...

http://www.stanford.edu/~jmb/GM1AW2550BC.jpg

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1BC2550.zip

Sirp, glad to have you onboard. Seeings as I was initially at the end of the rotation, why don't you take the game now?

JMB

ok I got it. Will play pretty soon.

(IT) 2550BC: I change Grand River to a warrior: if the English or Koreans get nasty we want to have a hope of defending ourselves!

(1) 2510BC: England tells us to get out of their territory. Certainly Elizabeth; whatever you say.

(2) 2470BC: ...

(3) 2430BC: Grand River completes warrior. We need some military up here, and before we have time to build a barracks. I set it to build an archer, but will change to spear if Bronze Working comes first.

(4) 2390BC: Ok looks like Korea discovered Mysticism, and traded it to England, so both of them have +Masonry,Mysticism,Bronze Working on us.

I meet a Celtic Warrior. Hi Brennus, how are you doing? We're the friendly Iroquois...well, we're friendly at the moment anyway! Ahhh and we meet India too. Ghandi is friendly, like us. All these guys have the same techs we don't have.

We can get bronze working now, clearing out our treasury, but I think we'll sit on it for now.

(5) 2350BC: Salamanca finishes its granary, I set it to build a settler.

(6) 2310BC: A barbarian warrior shows up south of Salamanca. Change of plans. I set Salmanca to build an archer. The archer in Salamanca is sent out of the city to deal with the barbarian, so he can't disrupt our worker.

(7) 2270BC: Ack! A barbarian horseman appears near Grand River. Umm...just where our settler was 2 turns ago. Warrior from Niagra Falls sent to help out if necessary.

Our archer defeats the barbarian warrior near Salamanca.

Ok, we need defense, and having this much money sitting in the bank is just asking for a threat. I buy Bronze Working off England for 80 gold, and switch Salamanca to build a spearman.

Our scout meets a German warrior. They have iron working and mysticism, but no masonry.

(8) 2230BC: Salamanca builds a spearman. Set to building a settler. Our archer goes south, trying to find where these barbarians breed.

The barbarian horseman near Grand River doesn't just attack like the nice predictable barbarians used to. Instead he approaches slowly, and one of his friends shows up behind him. He's close enough to get our worker now, so I have to move the worker.

We need troops in the area now, not in 30 turns, so I veto the barracks in Niagra Falls in favor of a warrior.

We discover London.

(9) 2190BC: These newfangled barbarians are kinda smart! He advances around our city going for the worker still. Thankfully the other one got killed by the Koreans. We'll have to attack him with our warrior; but he is in forest. Our warrior wins, 2-1.

Our archer near Salamanca sites the barbarian camp in the south.

(10) 2150BC: A barbarian horseman advances on Salamanca. We have to retreat the worker from mining. Not good.

The barbarian encampment we found just popped a horseman. We attack, beating the defending warrior, but leaving the horseman there. Salamanca has just grown to size 7, so it gets a +50% defensive bonus.

These barbarians are beginning to feel like Epic 4 all over again!

I suggest settling one tile south-west of where our settler stands.

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1BC2150.zip)

All right we have horses and our territory is in fact an easilly defended outcrop, even if someone settles on our island/peninsula they will not be able to hold it. Another settler! great. Thats 2 settlers, an advanced tribe, and a tech from huts - :cooool: .

The game is now rolling, I'll grab it and play 10. Killer can jump in whenever he posts.

Good job to JMB and Sirip. :thumbsup:

Looking over the game, we have a huge tech brokering opportunity here and should be able to trade our way into tech parity pretty easily. Whoever takes the game should make sure that they broker techs on turn 0 (2150 BC). We are also getting pretty close to the 2000 BC benchmark and don't have much of a military yet...

If we do get up to tech parity, good techs to research might be Mathematics, Lit, or Polytheism. I'd suggest not going for the GL... Math would probably be my first choice.

JMB

EDIT: Gothmog, I hope you notice the tech brokering opportunity...

The 2000BC benchmark? I thought we were going to declare war when we, or at least half the civs we have contact with, discover hbr. If we have to declare at 2000BC, I'm thinking we're dead in the water! At any rate, defending those cities we got is going to be rather difficult. We'll almost certainly want to build the FP up there when the time comes (if we still hold those cities!)

Oh yeah, I'm starting to report on my Always War on Deity game, check it out in the Stories & Tales section :)

-Sirp.

Sirp,

Looking at the save file, I think 3 of the AI civs already have hbr, so, it won't be long until they all have it... (especially because about half of them have writing, and the other half have horseback riding). I think our situation is definitely looking pretty grim...

JMB

Yes, that's the first thing I noticed. We are now at war with Korea.

OK, we are at war with Korea but we are winning the war if you can believe it. We razed a city of theirs near some iron, and they haven't sent any troops at all towards us. The only thing I can guess is that they are at war with someone else too. Check it out...

Preturn: I check the tech situation. Four civs have HB and three don't have it. Time to go on the offensive! I look at our military situation and it is grim indeed. So I whip an archer in Niagra Falls and MM Grand River to yeild two shields per turn. I also MM Salamanca to commerse + 1 tax man while still giving the settler in 2 turns - and there will be 10 food in the granary when it does produce the settler, it is at size seven now. Now I go to the trading table. First I buy writing from France for 32+6gpt. It turns out that neither Germany nor the Celts know Korea. I'll trade them communication since on Pangea they will all know each other soon enough. Contact + writing to the Celts for HB+37 gold. HB to China for Myst+22 gold. HB+writing to Germany for Iron Working+Masonry. 6 gold per turn for 5 techs + 27 gold, not bad :cool: . Now I call up Korea and renegotiate peace with them. Well, they want us to pay 10+1gpt - not likely. War is declared. We have Iron next to Niagra Falls.

Early turns: Kill lots of barbs, lose one warrior to barbs. Salamanca MM to produce 3+3+4 food and grow every three turns. Move warrior/archer pair towards a Korean city newly founded east of Grand River. Allegheny founded on eastern purple dot, this increases corruption in Grand River :( .

Middle turns: use scout north of Salamanca to lead around barbs up there. I attack and raze Hyangsan (only Korean Iron I can see) killing one defender. Salamanca builds another settler and I realize it was built on more Iron. Sword ordered up - now MMed for max shields without waste. More barbs south of Salamanca.

Late turns: Even more barbs south of Salamanca keeping our archer down there buisy every time he heals. Had to redirect settler losing a couple turns of movement. Finally settlle Cartaragus. One scout on main continent killed by barb horse coming out of the fog. Move settler towards horses. We will want MW sooner than later.

Notes to next player: keep micro managing everything and keep tabs on the lux slider - every round please. We need to squeeze blood from this turnip. There is a barb horse east of Allegheny - rush the archer there if necessary. I've sent our sword thataway too. Actually too bad we're not able to build any warriors in Salamanca - we need MP's there. But you can't have it all and we still have lots of cash. There are some trading opportunities in your preturn - I left that to you. Korea seems to have been a good choice for our first opponent. They have sent nothing our way, amazingly.

Things could deffinitely be worse. Keep a stiff upper lip and all that, eh?

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1BC1750.zip

Edit: No word from killer yet, but I think his ban ends tomorrow. JMB if you post an 'I got it' then you can go before Killer. If Killer posts first then it is his.

0 - Hire a scientist in NF and begin researching Lit at min sci. This allows us to reduce our lux tax by 20%. I don't bother with any deals this turn as we can't really get any 2fers. Mao establishes an embassy in our capital.

1 - Move spear-settler pair NE onto the horses (hopefully the barb warrior on the mountain won't off the pair) as this will be a better site. Move the archer into Catt this turn hoping that this will entice the barbs to go for our worker (we'll have another warrior next turn and will hopefully be able to take care of the threat before they kill our worker. The barb warrior impales himself on arrows. We win without taking a scratch.

2 - Use our archer to take out the horsie threatening out worker. Hopefully the warrior in Catt will be able to hold out against the horsie that could attack this turn. Swordsman takes out a horsie (taking 1 point...)

3 - Reg warrior takes on horsie threatening Catt, winning and promoting. 2 Korean archers are threatening GR. It shouldn't be a problem though as we have 2 spearmen and 1 archer in the city. Barb horsie threatening All, so I move our scout closer in the hope of dissuading him from attacking and instead chasing after our scout. Joanie has discovered Map Making this turn and I try to trade for it (@2nd; mainly because we might lose a chunk of our treasury this turn), but we can't afford it. Hopefully it'll get brokered around this turn and we'll be able to get a 2fer out os it. IBT, one Korean archer attacks across the river and loses.

4 - 2/3 swordsman takes on barb camp in forest, losing...

5 - Archer takes out another horsie. Wow. Huge round on tech trading. Germany now has Math, Philo, Code, and Map Making. WM and 113 gold to China for Code. Code and our WM to India for MM and 4 gold. MM and Code to the Celts for Phil, Math, their TM and 24 gold. We are at tech parity. Our WM to England for their TM and 38 gold. Our WM to Joanie for her TM and 29 gold. Our WM and 71 gold to Biz for his WM. Our WM to China for theirs and 3 gold. Our WM and 10 gold to England for their WM. Our WM and 45 gold to Joanie for her WM. Our new WM to Biz for 29 gold. Ours to Gandhi for 27 gold. Ours to China for 30 gold. Ours to England for 19 gold.

Got to break for the evening (year 1625 BC), I will try to finish this tomorrow night.

JMB

I'm back and ready ro roll.

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]

:D Welcome back Killer :D

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]

All right, looks good JMB. We are keeping up in tech - but the pace is certainly blistering. Pangea tends to do that. I thought about settling on the horses but that sort of makes the Whale to the north hard to access for an additional city. Ah well, it is definitely a trade off. We're going to want to road up the horses ASAP, that means a couple more workers and prioritizing it. The workers near GR and NF are probably better used roading west (I know I had them moving that way). We have an embassy with China now - did you approach him about helping us with Korea? It would be great if more civs could be enticed into war. That would slow the tech pace. Once we put the hurt on Korea we will probably want to start a war with someone else and get some juicy concessions. The AI has a hard time keeping out of a war and a nice world war would really help us.

A big welcome back to Killer! :yeah:
Your on deck...

So the play order has finally been established as:

Gothmog
JMB (playing)
Killer (on deck)
Sirp

We could still use one more to take some of the load off JMB and in case Sirp drops out later.

Originally posted by anarres


:D Welcome back Killer :D




:blush:

thanx, anarres!

Oh another thing, while the scientist in NF is certainly a good move do keep on the look out for opportunities to whip those cities (after the requisite 20 of course). They have lots of corruption but pretty good growth.

Gothmog,

China is already at war with Korea and we haven't needed to do anything yet... I decided to settle on the horses because we don't have enough troops to protect the workers and wage war on Korea (yet... I am working on it.) I plan on whipping a couple of things in the near future in GR, NF and All.

JMB

JMB, we are definitely on the same page. I knew you would be an effective warmonger!

It's great that China is at war with Korea and that certainly explains alot. Thanks Mao! :D

6 - We disperse the barb camp down south.W

7- Not much.

8 - Not much. IBT, Korea wants a straight up peace treaty. I think we want to take a few more cities (Pusan would be nice...), so I decline. We lose a scout to a barb horsie.

9 - Not much. Our spearman in OS defeats a barb horsie.

10 (actually, I am not really sure how many turns I have played, but 1500 BC seems like a good even number to end on...) - England completes the Pyramids. Our reg archer takes out a reg Korean warrior.

Notes for the next leader... Please whip the temple in GR next turn and the one in OS the turn after (cultural border expansion will disperse the barb hut near OS).

Keep Ton producing warriors as we need a lot more MP units (especially for All, NF, and GR; if we get them there shortly, we should be able to reduce the number of specialists we currently need).

The spear/settler pair is heading for the plains along the river to the NE of Sal. I think Sal's next settler should head south and settle on the forest just below our warrior (we should be able to get access to the cow. The warrior is protecting agains new barb huts...). We should whip the barracks in Catt in 7 turns.

Let All produce a worker to help deal with our unhappiness problems in that city, to build a road, and mine the cow (road first so that All will have access to the wines sooner...)

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW1500BC.zip

JMB

Good work JMB - it is really great having a homeland closed off to the AI for expansion, now if we can just get rid of the barbs.

It's all you Killer.

It would also be a good idea to prioritize grabbing some of the dyes soon, before the other AIs do (that way we'll have 3 native luxuries; if we take Pusan, we'll have 4 of them...). I think we still have several turns before they begin colonizing "our land," and I think that the first ones who do should be our next target for war...

We really need to work colonizing the lands around our capital, building more workers, and on building up our core so that we can build troops more quickly, etc.

Good luck Killer...

JMB

got it. Will need the 48h probably.

preturn: I don't like a lot here, but that's the level, not any players fault. Actually, I am positively surprised at how good we look.

(1) The Koreans found Pyongsong slam-damn in the path towards Pusan, they can hook up iron there. I think about changing GR to somehting else, Barracks maybe but decide against it.
The settler goes to the plains tile on the river; this will mean a full 3 tile overlap with Salamanca but otherwise the town needs Aqueduct and overlaps with Allegheny.
There are 4(!) Korean Archers in sight atm, Pyongsong is across a river. Thus, i decide to take as much as possible from Korea and sue for peace.
Surprisingly, we can get Ulsan! As they have only 9 Gold I rather take the city from them. What to do with it is another matter.

I rush a settler in GR to get to the Gems near York, nice river spot there with Gems in 9tiles, England will have to go anyways. We need MWs, and fast!

(2) We can build the FP now - maybe in Allegheny? the new settler goes east with an escort, there's a barb warrior so I send Spear and Archer along. NF rushes a Temple to gain access to bonus grass and help culture fight against Korea. Rush Temple in Oil Springs.

(3) barb Horsie kills Archer :mad:

(4) settler goes south from Sal. English and Japanese warrior are on barb hunt near Grand River. A lot of money from Wm trading - why now? Wm and 30 from Germany, WM and 5 from Chinw, WM and 20 from Brennus, WM and 18 from Korea! Must be the town that changed hands, but why two turns later????

(5) reach the Gem spot just in time, there's an English settler on the mountain next to it. They will now go for the Dyes if i see it right.

(6) 2 British settlers! St. regis founded. A barb Horsie sits on our iron - nothing I can do :( Rush an archer in NF (how i hate to do that!)

(7) Liz wants 35 adnd TM - I tell her to shove it up her ...... and she leaves! the iron is pillaged :mad: Culture expand gets us the hut, madras finishes the Colossus.
I decide NOT to attack the barb Horsie as he is fortified on hill. Knowing my luck he'd surviv both units from NF.
I find more English settlers wandering around and cannot resist - I attack and take the one that is in our lands. Protect the exposed Archer with Spear. I want one more, then we can let them come and give them some money for peace. Cheap slaves that way.

(and now everyone please get in line to beat on Killer. Everyone with one kind of weapon only please, boat paddles to the left, riot sticks to the right, everyone just once please.....)

(8) missed Cat growth, riots. lux up to 30%. Roads needed. barbHorse attacks and dies, now worker from Allegheny can move out and road.

(9) barb attacks NF and dies. Three barbs (incl 1 Horse) come from norht going for Allegheny. Rush Spear there. Centralia founded. hunker down in St. Regis as several Warrior approach. Rush Archer in GR

(10) survive 2 Warriors in St. regis, no loss and Spear promoted. Idiots, didn't they see the river?

settler from Sal starts north for Dyes with Spear. Archer from GR goes to jungle - there's an Englihs settler in there!


the war zone:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1.jpg

the Germans have a awefull lot of troops in England, there's a lot near the northern border where our Scout runs free between Japan and England. Are they going throuhg England to get at us or Korea? Or are all these troops on Barb hunt?

Maybe we could buy Germany into war with England. There have been no English Archers in view yet.

Also, England will found a city in the jungle where indicated. Mave there and threaten it (safe from counterattack for a few round) and sue for peace!

here some the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-1250BC.zip


there is another settler that withdrew towards York, he may try to go south around us - maybe we can catch him!


remember, we have a defenceless city (Ulsan) that may draw troops into passing frontline cities, so do NOT panick too much.


I did NO diplo this turn.

JMB. I agree we need to develop our core and anyone building on our homeland needs to be taught the error of their ways (well maybe one city way up north in the jungle could be tolerated for a bit if we are in an active alliance with that civ). We should prioritize hooking the horses up to our core ASAP.

Killer, you lived up to your alias in this one. St Regis was a stretch - but we are trying to win this one quick! The slaves will be very useful. An alliance with Germany vs. England would be great. As I said we want the whole world at war! not just us. All war all the time :mwaha:

Boy wouldn't a great Leader for a FP rush be great about now?

I think given the quality of the warmongers in this team we can safely do away with the must be at war rule. Charis suggested as much in the RBE thread. Killer showed he knows the ways of the warmonger and I think we can all stick to the spirit of wanting to conquer as quickly as possible without playing by rote.

Sirip take it away!

Ok I got it. Should be able to play sometime over the next 24...

-Sirp.

1250BC (IT): Salamanca switched from spearman to swordsman. It's 5 turns vs 4 turns; at that rate a swordsman is much

more economical.

Bismark wants 130 Gold and World map for Literature. Well, we give him 10 gold up front and 6 gold per turn. That'll be

a little insurance against him attacking us for a while.

Then we trade WM + Literature + 160 Gold to Korea for Currency + WM.

St Regis is a bit of a stretch. A real gambit. I like it! :)

1225BC (1): The English founded Oxford where that settler was.

I don't like the look of this Chinese galley off our coastline.

Workers up near St Regis sent under guard to build a road to gems and also make it easier to launch an attack on the

English.

Archers sent to try to take out this new city of Oxford. The German stack headed west.

1200BC (2): our archer comes into sight of Oxford; it's defended by just a warrior.

MP arrives in Cattaraugus; luxuries cut.

1175BC (3): Oxford auto-razed to the ground. The English now have a warrior moving into our territory, and a spearman

and archer on the way. Our workers have to retreat from building the road as the English are looking a little

threatening. What we need here is a catapult. We're not going to be able to get one anytime soon in the area, so I have

to whip one out of Niagra Falls.

I trade for Poytheism from Germany for 220 gold, and then give it, 50 gold, and 5gpt to China for Construction.

Expensive, yes, hopefully we can make it up by extorting some from our enemies soon. England is already willing to give

us 100 gold for piece, so we always have the option there; we'd have to declare war on someone else to do that of

course.

Akwesasne is founded on the west coast.

Korea has monotheism and feudalism. Yet they don't have their iron hooked up yet. Maybe when our treaty with them

expires we could go to war with them again and get concessions.

1150BC (4): veteran English warrior attacks our regular archer on hills. We win; just. The English have two spearmen on

different tiles right next to St Regis, and have a stack of 2 archers, a warrior, and a settler, a couple of tiles away.

ok now it's my turn to be beaten up. I didn't notice that Salamanca doesn't have a barracks yet, and I just built a

swordsman there. Oh well, he'll still be useful for taking out the barbarians.

1125BC (5): Ok, while everything else is building military, Salamanca is going to build another settler.

1100BC (6): Terrible news! The English attack St Regis across a river and a regular archer takes down our veteran

spearman without taking a hit and promotes! A second regular archer attacks and kills our regular archer. The city just

has one defender left. With those two troops killed, our defenses in the area are looking rather thin. The English will

offer us all their gold (118) and a city for peace, I might consider that option if things get worse.

Troops are diverted to the region.

1075BC (7): The Frenchies complete the Great Lighthouse.

One of the English archers attacks St Regis again, and knocks one out of our spearman before we beat him. The other

English archer retreats to heal. The English spearmen are advancing around our frontlines towards Grand River; one could

attack next turn, and we only have a conscript warrior to defend it.

The English have horsemen! One comes out of the fog and attacks my archer whose in the jungle poking around the English

cities. Our archer loses one, before fighting back, and the horseman retreats. On my turn, I attack the horseman, win,

and our archer promotes.

1050BC (8) The English spearmen head west from Grand River. What's their game? They might be going for our wines. Our

catapult is now working and ready for action! It bombards one of the spearmen.

1025BC (9) The English just built the Great Wall in London! Now, I must admit I'm not quite sure what it does, and I've

heard varying reports. The English spearman moves onto our wine supply. I bombard him down to 2, but we only have a

regular archer to attack with. If he wants to stay there and pillage the wines so be it; we'll kill him after more

bombardment, and we've got nearby workers to reconnect it.

1000BC (10) The English archer retreated to heal. Didn't want to die huh? We go and kill his buddy first, and we'll get

him later. Our archer sites an English warrior-settler pair on the site of Oxford; they want to refound it huh? Our

archer is wounded, not sure what we want to do.

Well that's it from me. Sorry for saddling us with 11 gpt payments. At least we're at near-parity with techs. We really

do need to fill out our subcontinent and start developing economic improvements (marketplaces anyone?) soon!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-1000BC.ZIP)

Wow, nice playing! You were unlucky on the across-river attacks but still held St. Regis and got us tech-near-parity...... :D

very nice!

oh yeah I think I forgot to mention in my report (so much other stuff was going on): The Chinese threatened us, demanding 12 gold pieces and world map. Not very much, but we are the powerful Iroquois! We don't bow to such threats! I told them to go stick it. They did! We are the powerful Iroquois and others cower in our presence.

Oh and yes, what exactly does the Great Wall do? Does it only help cities that have a city walls already, or all cities? I don't like the idea of attacking England while they have that thing :-/

-Sirp.

It helps below size 6 by doubling city wall effects IIRC. So England is pretty much a no-go atm if they have walls.

This ancient war stuff does make every ten turns fun filled doesn't it? Everyone fears the powerful Fighting Iroquois, and rightfully so, we mean buisness. Another great turn of warmongering by Sirp, razing cities is good for morale! :mwaha:

Killer is right on about the Great Wall. It will make advancing on Liz harder though. I'll be looking to get some concessions from them and then take it to the Koreans, we don't want them to hook up Iron. If the Chinese try to settle on our subcontinent :nono: they will be made to pay in blood and money! I would like to get into monarchy and then use a MW to start our Golden Age and build a large MW force - but I'll also be trying to fill in our homeland.

'I got it' and will play tonight.

Edit: the play order.

Gothmog (playing)
JMB (on deck)
Killer (eagerly anticipating)
Sirp

Gothmog,

Don't bother with Monarchy, go for Republic as soon as it is available... T-hawk has done a good analysis on the benefits of Republic over Monarchy and has been able to play an AW game without WW getting too high. I say we give it a shot here too...

JMB

Republic is OK with me, but I still think we should go monarchy, as we will be in dire need of keepong cptured cities from unhappiness. Remember the level!!!!

I can handle the WW - especially in OW. I really just wanted to get into some government before our GA and I am wondering if Republic will have too high a unit cost for us given that we have *no* markets. Counteracting any benefit of the additional commerse.

If you're talking about the last Always War Epic, T-Hawk did that by not being at war for a large portion of the time: he didn't have contact with anyone!

And yeah, we have lots of units, no marketplaces, the support costs might just kill us, can someone do some analysis on this? :)

Also, it'd be nice to get this MW thing going sometime before Chivalry is discovered :)

-Sirp.

Well, some good and some bad. We have definitely missed out on the MW rush but it still may be better to have 2 MW + 10 shields (half a spear) than a Knight, time will tell. The tech pace has slowed at least due to lots of war all over the continent! Here's the report:

Preturn: 4 workers are roading up the iron up by NF, I would rather have them roading the way to the horses as we do have Iron allready connected under Salamanca - but only two turns left so I leave them (this turns out to be a mistake as it means we can no longer build warriors for MP - and we lose a few to the barbs). Mauch Chunk has 10 shields towards a worker but is size one with long time before growth? Must have been disease there or something. NF is about to riot.

Click - England refounds Dover.

Early turns: I allow the archer next to Dover to heal one turn and attack right before a shield arrives. Dover is razed. I kill a barb horse with our regular sword and see a bunch (5) more coming down on us. I whip the racks in Oil Springs (renamed MW Springs). I kill some barb horses and lose a warrior to some as well. Four more appear from the fog (was there an uprising?), this is going to be tough. I see my first english sword and so give them a call. Peace with England for 228 gold + WM + Liverpool (this can be gifted to the Celts if it becomes a problem). I renegotiate Peace with the Koreans, they wont give us Feud so war is declared! I call up China and they give us 143+WM for a MA vs the Koreans. I sell around our new WM for another 35 gold. I still can't afford Feud though. France declares on China, Palace expands, and Germany completes the Great Library.

Middle Turns: Germany calls up and I buy a worker from them for 120 gold. Our now vet barb fighting sword is taken out by a couple of barb horses. The barbs move towards Allegheny and will pillage it soon. I use some gold to get a embassy with Germany and England - London has the Pyramids and the Great Wall, also they are at war with Korea and the Celts (yes!). The Celts declare on the Chinese. Three more barb horses arrive from the fog. The barb SOD attacks Allegheny, kills the warrior there and it is pillaged for production, 2 pop, and 24 gold.

Late turns: China and Germany ally vs. India. Our horses are now connected. I lose a fortified spear to more barb horses but my counterattack kills all visible barbs (finally). IT - three more barb horses appear. Usan grows and I hire a scientist down there - France has the republic but values it higher than Feud - I think its a monopoly. The Celtics have founded a city in the northern Jungle on our subcontinent. I have a settler/spear headed towards the dyes. Hopefully the Celts and our new cities will eliminate the barb problems I had.

I produced a bunch of workers and moved all the ones in our corrupt lands towards our core - alot of land has been improved. Things will start to roll once they do a bit more. This was delayed too long and we are feeling the pinch of it. Monotheism, Feudalism, and the Republic are all out there but the world war presently existing is slowing trades and tech pace. I haven't seen any Knights. Eventually we might be able to buy in on one and broker. We have a good treasury but can't rush anything with it anyway - our power level is top three and that is why I was able to get gold for the MA. I didn't do much on the Korean front as all units were fighting barbs - I do have a mini-SOD moving in Korean lands and I prevented them from hooking up their Iron. We missed our MA rush but I think they will still be useful at 30 shields a pop.

JMB your up - you should oversee our civ finally becoming productive and our first MW. Hopefully I didn't leave you with too much :smoke: .

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-750BC.ZIP

Got it. Will try to post tomorrow night (or Saturday morning. I am also up in RBE6...)

JMB

gothmog: times are touhg, but you got us out still swimming and land is in sight - not :smoke:y at all!

Re JMB - No worries, I saw that you are up in RBE6 (a good read that one). Just post a 'I'm still on it' by saturday night if you haven't finished it yet.

Re Killer - thanks, we're still on target (stay on target, stay on target!) and our geography will really help if times ahead get tougher. We just have to keep the world at war if at all possible.

0 - Gothmog, I don't really notice any weed (hopefully I can avoid :smoke:y moves this turn... I doubt it), but I think we have different priorities... I really think we need to have our core cites concentrating on infrastructure (while producing the odd military unit to allow other cities to build their infrastructure) and getting out cities larger. As Sirian says: "People is power." We should only need one or two of our cities producing military units at a time and should have the rest concentrate on infrastructure. Once those cities complete building a couple of infrastructure buildings, they can switch to military units allowing the other cities to build some infrastructure.

I don't think MW Springs should be making MWs when it is only bringing in 1 spt. Change MWS to a courthouse. Change Catt from a spearman to a MW. Change All from a spearman (who would have been a regular) to a courthouse. Change NF from a spearman to a catapult. Change Mauch Chunk from Barracks to a granary. Change GR to a temple (again... :)). Seeings as the other AIs already have Feudalism (and we are only 2 turns in on single scientist research), I switch to researching Engineering.

1 - We take out two Korean archers. Change Ton from a temple to a granary. IBT, we take out a korean archer in Pyongsong and a barb horse.

2 - Kill another barb horse. Decide to try to take out Pyongsang this turn with a 3/4 archer (otherwise, it will be reinforced with another spear next turn...) We lose 3 straight times. Oh well. Change entertainer in GR to a scientist (didn't notice him before...). Germany and France sign a peace treaty. Korea and China sign a peace treaty.

3 - We take out a Korean spearman with our swordsman. By accident, I allow Sal and NF to fall into disorder.

4 - We take out a Korean archer with our swordsman. We take out a barb horsie, and promote our archer.

5 - Our vet spear in Ty takes on 3 barb horsemen and promotes to elite. Our reg spear secorting our settler almost dies (1 hp) to a barb horse attacking across a river; there is another barb threatening this village. I hope it won't attack as if it does, and we lose, we could lose the city to the Koreans who have a spear settler pair on the hill at the delta. Our first MW almost dies attacking a barb horse in the jungle.

Peace and Monotheism from the Koreans for 10 gpt and 180 gold. Monotheism to China for Feudalism and 1 gold. Monotheism, 4 gpt, and 95 gold to England for the Republic. Decide to revolt this turn as we are religious. Joanie has a warrior settler pair in our territory, so I decide to declare war on her. IBT, Damn! France signs Germany into a military alliance against us. The Celts and China sign a peace treaty.

6 (actually, I have no clue how many turns I have played...) - We become a republic. We kill the french warrior and capture 2 workers.

7 to 10 (?) - Not much.

It is now 570 BC, which is when I think suppose to be my last turn... The Celts and English sign a peace treaty and we take out a barb horse with our vet archer.

If China lands a settler on our lands (NE of Centralia), I think we should declare war on them and net ourselves a few workers. We also have a Korean spear settler pair N of MWS that we should demand leave our territory (if they declare war, we can get a few more workers...) Other AIs we might take on (as Germany and France are rather far away...), are the Celts (we shouldn't attack the English because I made a tech for gpt deal with them...) However, I think we should wait until the Celtic city in our homeland grows to size two so that we don't auto raze the city. Also, seeings as we are currently a Republic, we should definitely try to trigger our GA (and then concentrate on infrastructure and perhaps GL fishing (although I don't think we have any elite offensive units...) to rush our FP.

So, once again, we really need to concentrate on building the infrastructure in our core cities (and letting them grow). We should also try to acquire a few more luxuries (perhaps by building a harbor in one of our more productive cities. Our furs should be online before the end of the next turn...).

Once again, we could still use more workers...

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW570BC.zip

JMB

JMB: I agree with your approach; build lots of infrastructure, while holding off our enemies. Outpower them with a better economy.

Of course, this is the builder's approach. I do think that a legitimate strategy is to concentrate on damaging our enemies through warfare more than improving our own infrastructure, but....I greatly prefer the builder strategy.

Good luck Killer!

-Sirp.

Sirp,

Naturally, I think I am a builder, but even so, I think the best course of action is to build some infrastructure so that we can keep up techwise and on the military front...

Something I forgot to mention... I think we should allow our capital (and the other cities around it) grow as much as possible (and as quickly). If we want more settlers (or workers), peel them off of corrupt cities or those that currently require a specialist to keep them happy.

JMB

I can take it late this evening or tomorrow morning.

Please note, on rechecking the save file, I think a couple of cities will riot if left alone next turn...

JMB

k

preturn: barracks instead of Granary in Centralia - i want enough MW do fened us and have an offensive option, THEN marketplaces (money), THEN other infra. Take two workers off the forest cutting near Cattaraugus, otherwise all but two shields will be lost.

(1) war with Korea (no surprise there).
kill a barb Horse.

(2) bombard Cheju. Slavery has a future with us and we are in our GA. Some people are happy about the war - adjust everyone accodingly.

(3) we kill a barb

(4)

(5) first time we have a MW in the war zons.

(6) England and Korea make peace. MW goes elite on exposed Archer, We earn 25 Gold.

(7) Korean military shows up in force
Some of them die :D (2 Archer 1 Horse).

(8) India and China make peace. Lugudunum inishes SunTzus. have 'big' stack ready to take Cheju.

(9) Hangburg builds the Haming Gardens. We take Cheju at loss of 1 Archer, get a leader(!) and Grand River rushes Barrakcs for 64 Gold - will rush FP next turn.

(10) Korea declares war on China and a horseman of theirs learns that our Spearmen have pointy sticks. He runs away to tell his friends - I will not let him get away....
Shenandoah falls off the scaffloding of the new Forbidden Palace and dies, to honor his memory the workers finish it right away. The grand opening ceremony can take place next turn.


(11) (sorry, wanted to see FP effects) from +50 to +72 Gold each turn!

3 Archers and 1 Horse threaten Grand River, use the Sword to kill 1 Archer, then MWs to kill rest, I placed them for this.... have fun!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1withFPnow.zip

Allll right, our first leader [dance] that should make us a bit more productive! and we're in our Golden Age no less. Sirp, take this one and run with it!

Gothmog (on deck)
JMB
Killer
Sirp (playing)

got it, might have to take the full 48 though; we'll see.

-Sirp.

1 350BC: An added benefit of the FP is that cut corruption means more trade seeps through to being luxuries, allowing us to cut the luxuries rate to 10%!

ok, I do as Killer suggested, but what he didn't know was that that horseman/archer pair was backed up by 3 archers! Oh well, I'll have to leave one of our mounted warriors vulnerable on the hills, hopefully he'll be able to retreat...but, the horseman almost beats him, leaving him in the red, meaning the archers are going to kill him :-/

I switch Niagra Falls from a courthouse to a barracks. It doesn't need a courthouse anymore!

What we really need are workers. Lots of workers. We have 12, we need 24! We don't have dyes or gems hooked up. They could allow us to nix luxuries altogether!

Salamanca is switched to a temple. It's going to be needed to keep our luxuries at 10%. Also, now that our frontlines can produce troops, let's go for infrastructure in our core!

hmm...Cattaragus is almost size 6 and it's building a marketplace when it doesn't have an aqueduct! I change that.

I buy two slaves off Mao at 120 gold a piece.

ok, Allegheny is going to be our last 'frontline' city. Everything west of Allegheny is going to be part of the 'core' and is going to avoid building military units.

luxury rates had to go back up after a couple of turns. We still have to hook up those luxuries!

2 330BC:

3 310 BC: ok a regular archer survives two catapult shots, and then gives us a scare getting our veteran swordsman down to 2, before finally we win the last 3 and kill him!

4 290BC: a German Medieval Infantry lands next to the undefended town of Allegheny. Oops. Hi Bismark, terrible war we're in here, isn't it? How'd you like a peace treaty? Oh you would! And you'd give us 8 gold for it too! Well we would demand engineering too, but...we're being nice today. Thanks have a nice one.

ok, France will also make peace, and give a half-concession: a cheap price on engineering. 300 gold, and 16 gpt. We take it, and then ship engineering and 80 gold to China for Theology.

The French have Education, but they're talking insane prices for it. Other than that and monarchy, we're at tech parity!

5 270BC: Ok this german MDI starts wandering through our territory...The Celts are doing the same!

6 250BC: The town of Pyongsong has survived too long. Time for it to die. Taking an enemy settlement without loss is such a refreshing experience.

But then, get this: They have a regular archer, on a hill. On a hill mind you, but still regular. We bombard him down to red with our catapults. Then we attack with our full strength elite swordsman. Not across river, but he is on a hill. We lose. Lose! To a red archer! Goodness!

Ok Bismark, we know that we signed a peace treaty with you, but you've got this guy, just wandering through our lands. You have a choice. You can get out, or you can declare war. He withdraws. Not as dumb as he looks.

7 230BC: Salamanca has finished its Cathedral, and since it doesn't need any more infrastructure at this time, it's going into Mounted Warrior production mode! This'll let us change to a marketplace in Grand River (Our FP city).

I finally start getting some workers up on the front lines to link our acquired cities. Y'know, it's really good that the Koreans are uncultured, like us. If we were going against the Germans or Celts here, I think we'd be seeing flips galore!

8 210BC: ...

9 190BC: ...

10 170BC: ok we kill an archer and capture a Korean worker near Cheju. I think we're looking in pretty decent shape. Korea and England are certainly two of the weaker civs around, no doubt thanks primarily to our efforts! England looks ripe to be attacked soon. I checked, and York is guarded by just two regular spearmen. (it only cost 14 gold to check).

I suggest pressuring Korea until they will give Engineering as a concession, and then going for England's throat. They only have one source if iron, and it's only a couple of tiles from our borders. London itself will be hard to take with a river, hills, and possession of the Great Wall (which I am still unclear on its exact functionality), but everything else should be easy.

Watch the German MDI near Allegheny; mark him well.

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-170BC.zip)

Sirp: I didn't adjust production after FP buil as I knew you were doing it. I should have mentioned that I didn't - my fault! sorry!

Killer: Hey I wasn't criticizing you, I was just saying what I was doing :)

I think it's fine to leave a whole heap of decisions to the next ruler.

-Sirp.

Oooh, I am looking forward to seeing how we look with a GA and FP under our belt for a number of turns. Not to mention seeing my first MW before the millenium. 'Got it'

On the Great Wall - it doubles the effectiveness of walls. Which means it does nothing for cities above size 6 or without a wall.

Gothmog (playing)
JMB (on deck)
Killer (well done)
Sirp (done well)

not doing anything for a city above 6 is just plain silly imho. Anyhow, I'm not sure England has any walls, so it sounds to me like it won't be much for them!

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Killer: Hey I wasn't criticizing you, I was just saying what I was doing :)

I think it's fine to leave a whole heap of decisions to the next ruler.

-Sirp.

Sirp: leaving them is fine - but I should still have told you!

Sirp - I agree. The Great Wall was much more powerful in civ2.

I went Skiing yesterday and spent the rest of the day making it up to my family so I haven't finished playing yet. I did play a few turns before bed - we look much better and will continue to improve as workers work and infrastructure completes. I pulled a little feint move on the Koreans and used our MW's ( :love: ) to raze Inch'on and grab a bunch of slaves. Another feint has put me in position to attack that city east of the former Korean Iron city. I'll see how that works out tonight. If I take that city I should be able to extort some tasty goodies from Korea and turn our attentions to England.

Originally posted by Gothmog
I pulled a little feint move on the Koreans and used our MW's ( :love: ) to raze Inch'on and grab a bunch of slaves. Another feint has put me in position to attack that city east of the former Korean Iron city. I'll see how that works out tonight. If I take that city I should be able to extort some tasty goodies from Korea and turn our attentions to England.

ah I love units with high mobility.... we Could also land WMs via Galley in the town we got in the last peace, the Koreans 'know' we have no troops there so their guard will be down...

Yes mobility is great - and retreating is very efficient. I've been literally running rings around the Korean archer SOD.

Good plan but as of right now we don't have any Galleys so it would take at least four turns to implement. I think it's about time to do some pointy stick research and oscillate our war efforts. The Koreans own an island off our west coast that is rightfully ours, we will need to build a Galley for that invasion (in say... 20 turns? :lol: ).

gothmog: aggreed on Galleys, but we should keep that in mind fir in 20 turns :D

Gothmog: Once we're in the middle ages, I don't think a stack of archers deserves to be called a 'SOD'. To qualify as a SOD, you have to have *good* units, not just lots of em!

(well ok if they put 30 archers in a stack, then it'd be a SOD :) )

-Sirp.

You are correct Sir Sirp.
This was no SOD except that I only had MW and Cat defending pyongsong on the beginning of my turns. I've killed alot, like 6 archers (plus assorted spears), and there are still 6-8 in the stack wandering around. I almost called it a mini-SOD but I am not all that fond of that term. For want of a better term I used SOD since it really just describes the AI's penchant for stacking its military units. For the Koreans this was a SOD, in real terms it was no SOD.

Wow, I really put the stick to a dead horse in that reply didn't I? :) Can you tell I'm at work and not too focused?

The promised one has come, all is in readiness. The time is later than expected, but when are prophetic visions clear? The horse warriors known as the Fighting Iroquois have been anointed with potions and are ready to spread across the land.

Preturn – Salamanca at 25 spt, so I give up a mined bonus grassland to Cattaraugus. I swap Niagara and Allegheny to pikes, we may need some and soon. I wake and moved a couple Fighting Iroquois to the front. Click…

IT – the Celts and Germans come to peace. Four Korean archers move next to our Pyongsong, which has not even a spear for defense.

150 BC: Catapults do two damage to archer stack. Elite MW attacks – only does one damage but retreats to fight another day; 2nd kill + promote, 3rd - kill, 4th - kill. So there is only one archer left. In the south I move a stack of MW’s covered by two spears into position to attack either the Korean Pyongsong or Inch’on next turn.

IT – In the north a stack of five more archers moves next to Pyongsong. In the south, an archer attacks the stack of MW’s in the south and loses to a spear. A spear actually moves out of Inch’on! :smoke: AI :smoke:

130 BC: I attack Inch’on: 1st – redlines but kills spear + promotes, 2nd – again redlines but kills spear, 3rd kills with two points left. Inch’on razed and we get 4 slaves! I have another MW and use it to attack a spear out in the open – win. In the north I sweep up an archer and spear left alone in the desert. Whoop whoop whoop go the Fighting Iroquois.

IT – an archer attacks the MW that razed Inch’on, the battle hardened MW wins and promotes. Our GA ends and our income is reduced from 75 gpt to 34 gpt. The 5 Korean archers in the north join with two more and move south towards the former Inch’on site. Presumably to protect the Korean Pyongsong and try to recapture the slaves that are trying to get back to Cheju.

110 BC: The Korean spear of retribution arrives out of the desert and makes an elite MW retreat, kills a vet, then finally falls to a third vet.

IT – the Korean archer stack of 7 continues south towards the former Inch’on, they had to go a square offroad luckily. Two archers and a spear attack the Inch’on slave retreat. They redline but promote the covering spear, then kill a MW.

90 BC: I move a stack o’ Fighting Iroquois next to Pusan.

IT – a Korean longbow kills a spear covering the Inch’on slaves (now in our territory on a road) – but a MW remains. The Korean archer stack moves back towards Pusan. It is time for a temporary peace with the Koreans.

70 BC: I attack Pusan. Our catapult misses, MW kills spear, elite MW kills spear. Next defender – longbow. He falls to the Fighting Iroquois and Pusan is ours. I decide to keep this one. Peace with Korea nets us Invention+20g+16gpt+WM, a nice haul. I then trade Invention+21g+WM to India for Education and start min research (Korean scientist) on PP. I rush the ‘racks in St Regis for the war with England that is to come. I decide that we are already at war with England in my mind so there is no reason to tell Liz for a couple more turns.

IT – Dyes online, lux to 20%.

50 BC: I rush a temple in Pusan.

IT – nada

30 BC – I am in position on our English borders. War will commence next turn.

IT – Gems come online and with it a road to York. Lux to 0%.

10 BC – Renegotiate peace with Liz -> War! Capture a worker outside of York. Attack on York, MW kills spear, MW loses to spear and fails to retreat, MW kills spear. York is ours. I attack an archer in the woods outside of York with an elite MW and Cornplanter emerges. Two more workers captured outside of Brighton. MI attacks a fortified archer and redlines before winning, yielding another slave. Thinking we might want to rush the HG, I trade China Invention+30g for Monarchy+2 workers. Later I realize that Germany already built the HG, anyway Leo’s will be great for Knight and Cav upgrades.

IT – Pike on the way to York is attacked by archer, wins but redlines. I notice some Celt horses north of London.

10 AD – I rush Leo’s in Grand River. I kill an English MI with an elite MW. The attack on Brighton commences – MW kills spear, MW redlines spear and retreats, MW kills archer, MW kills redlined spear. Brighton ours. The Celt horses move past London. I notice another Celt spear has been moving south from Burdigala towards Allegheny. What are they upto?

IT – lose an elite MW on a mountain to an archer, another retreats from the jungle where the MI fell. Leo’s completes,

30 AD – I counter attack the archer on the mountain with two catapult shots and a MW, he promotes! I kill two more straggling English archers in the jungle. The Celts now have five horses on the border near York, and the spear in our territory near Allegheny. I buy an embassy and ring up Brennus. A military alliance is formed against England for 18 gpt.

This has been ten turns for me but I decide to go one more to get us back on easy numbers.

IT – the Celts declare war on us anyway. Two of their horses (where are their Gallic Swords I wonder) attack and kill English archers near London. Two attack the MW on the mountain, he kills the first but succumbs to the second. The last one attacks York and redlines the spear defending there (there will be an Pike there next turn). The English finish off the Celtic horse on the mountain. France and China come to peace.

50 AD – Troop shuffle.

Notes: Korea still hasn’t hooked up their Iron south of Wonsan. France has Gunpowder. We can trade Education for Chiv with China and upgrade all our MW’s with a little help from Leo. I’ve been holding off to produce more of our cheap MW’s and because I haven’t even had to attack any Pikes yet. England does have Pikes in London though. The St Regis gambit by Killer has been a godsend, it has been our central command in the England campaign. Acting as both a rallying point and hospital, not to mention the Gems. I think we should just eliminate the English now, should be no problem with the Celts on the job too. Remember that we are at war with them. It might be smart to get the Germans and/or Indians into a war with them to keep the tech pace nice and slow. I guess you could leave the English one city on the Celtic border if they have sufficient tribute to pay (which I doubt). After that we could finish off the Koreans and, I think, go for a conquest victory – Razing most of the rest of the way. As you will see in the screen shot, our economy is doing great as is our treasury, 0% lux, and 0% science will do that.

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-50AD.zip

and a screen shot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-50AD.jpg



Edit: The talley for my rounds...

I killed: 18 archers, 9 spear, 1 longbow, 1 MI, and two horses.

I lost: 5 MW and one spear.

I also captured 8 slaves and bought two more.

Not bad considering I had divine inspiration on my side.

The play order:

Gothmog
JMB (playing)
Killer (on deck)
Sirp

:evil: gothmog, you are one capable warmonger! :goodjob:

Nice turn Gothmog!

I'll try to get to it tonight...

JMB

Gothmog, a 5:1 kill ratio! I certainly don't think I'll be able to match that...

0 - I build an embassy with the Indians (53 gold). I ask Gandhi to aid us with the Celts. He agrees for a mere 14 gpt (I chose India because Gandhi looks stronger than Biz and can, I think, aid us without losing too much of his territory to the Celts). IBT, a 3/5 elite Celtic horseman kills a 3/3 english spear on a mountain and gets a GL! A reg archer in Newcastle attacks our elite MW and dies only doing 1 point.

1 - Our elite MW takes out the 1 hp Celtic horseman. I don't want to let the Celts get their GL home, so I use a vet MW to take him out. I decide to use our 4/5 elite MW against the regular spear in Newcastle. We win, taking 1 point damage, but there is another reg spear in the city. Vet MW against reg spear in Norwich, dies redlining the spearman. Vet archer takes the second reg spearman out. I decide to use out reg spearman to take out the redlined spearman in the city. We lose and promote him. IBT, an English Med inf redlines our MW (who took out the GL) and forces him to retreat.

2 - Whoops, Brighton goes into disorder... Sal is making 23 spt. With our current income, I decide to rush a worker (80 gold) and letting Sal complete the MW in 1 turn. I decide to use our elite MW to kill a 2/3 med inf on the mountain next to York. Grr... We lose and promote the med inf. Vet MW versus reg spear, wins and we liberate Newcastle. IBT, I accept a straight up peace offer from France. An English MI forces one of our MWs to retreat, and Liz lands a reg archer next to Newcastle. Shoot, I forgot to rush the worker in Sal. Switch to a med inf to waste less shields.

3 - ?? Brain fart.

4 - Med Inf against a reg pike in Hastings. Winning with only 1 point taken. Vet MW versus reg pike, retreats only doing one point. Second MW wins with one point left. Third versus reg spear, retreats. Fourth, wins versus 2/3 spear and we capture Hastings and 4 workers. MW in Newcastle takes on a reg archer in the jungle, wins. Elite MW takes on a 2/4 vet MI, winning with 2 hp left and generating a leader Tecumseh. I know exactly what to do with him... :) Vet MW versus 1/3 carthage spear, redlines before killing him. IBT, our 3/4 MI takes out a 4/4 MI, promotes and then dies to a second MI.

5 - Vet MW defeats a vet MI.

6 - Hurry Marketplace in NF for 200 gold.

7 - Gems, our WM, and 320 gold to Joanie for Music Theory. Joanie still has a monopoly on Gunpowder. Our leader rushes Bach's Cathedral in NF.

8 - Vet MW takes on a vet Celtic longbowman, winning. It appears I waited too long on the Education for Chivalry deal with China... IBT, the English want a peace treaty... No thanks.

9 - Vet MW versus vet spear, wins. Vet MW versus reg spear, wins and norwich is ours. IBT, 2 pikemen leave London.

10 - 3 vet MW take out 3 reg Celtic archers. Having seen 2 pikemen leave London last turn, damaging one pikeman in London with our catapults, and having 8 MW right in front of London, I decide to try to take it (even though the position isn't the best...(up a mountain, possibly across a river (can't really tell when you remove the cities from the map... Ctrl-Shift-M)). First, MW retreats, doing 1 point damage. 2nd retreats without doing any damage. The third retreats after doing 1 point. The fourth dies promoting the pikeman. The sixth dies, taking the pikeman down to 1 point and promoting him. The seventh dies against another reg pikeman, and I decide to give up this foolish venture... Even after sending 2 pikemen into the field (I believe I had disconnected her iron a couple of turns ago) Liz has something like 6 pikemen in London! Sorry about prolonging the English war for another 5 or so turns...

With Sal making 23 spt, we can crank out a catapult per turn. I think we should do this for several turns...

St. Regis will be threatened by Celtic units in the next few turns. We don't have very good defensive units there right now, but should be able to handle their attack pretty easily.

Gunpowder has finally been traded around. We should be able to get it for around 1000 gold from Joanie or 1200 from Biz or Wang Kon. I think we should purchase it from Joanie (for gpt would be nice) and try to get chivalry as well (perhaps from China? They aren't doing too well right now...). If we get Chivalry, we can take our wounded MWs to St. Regis (along with some of our other MWs ouside of Hastings) and upgrade them (healing them for free). Three more MWs should be produced by the end of this turn...

If you want, I think the Celts are willing to accept peace straight up, but I don't think we should accept until we have taken the Celtic city in the North of our homeland. Actually, I just remembered that we have an alliance with India, so we shouldn't make peace until that is finished.

Here's the file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW250AD.zip

If I hadn't tried pushing things (with London), I would have had a 6:1 kill ratio. My :smoke: brought the ratio down to 3:1. Since we have superior units, this is a pretty poor exchange...

Have fun Killer! Hopefully, I haven't messed things up for you too much...

Gothmog
JMB
Killer (playing)
Sirp (on deck)

JMB

got it

Oh yes, another leader another wonder - we are really starting to roll now. The london attack must have looked tempting, but a fortified pike in a city vs a MW isn't really a great attack. You need two to one troop ratio just to have a shot. The retreat ability has really been saving us alot of troops and giving us great kill ratios, I mean 3:1 is nothing to sneeze at and more than compensates for the Diety production deficit (not to mention the leader again). I like the upgrade and heal for free idea, the MW's have been great but their time is allmost past - any elites could be saved for our next Korean campaign though.

agree on upgrade for vets - we need the higher defence.

preturn: looking around I see the Celts campaign going nowehre righ now - I don't want to take units from the Engish war effort to kill Celts just to take a useless jungle city from them.

Decision time: London has Great Wall, so bombarding ti down won't help at all until we hit the walls - small chance with catapults. It alos has Pyramids - that would be very nice to have atm. Then, Korea would fall next........

Scenario one: we take peace from Liz (she is willing to give us Chivalry and wo workers or Warwick) and take the rep hit from India alliance. Then, we are free to kill of Korea (I still want to use my coastal flanking manouver).

Scenario 2: We take the peace with England and pile an ROP and MA against the Celts into it (Liz is willing!).

2 a) Celts get killed down, we rush through and surond England by taking (refounding) nottingham and Gergovia. This will take the ten turns we have to go. Then, a short korea campaign while we wait for the chance to gobble up lizzy (I would prefer to wait for Cavalry here!

2 b) this is the one I see coming: The Celts hit London hard. If it falls we take it, if not we go around it. No more iron for Liz and in 21 turns we take London.




I decide to go for 2b)!

still preturn: rename Grand River to FP Gradn River - that way the FP will always be easy to find in the F1 list. As we now have ROP with liz, i use the healthy MWs to kill some Brits. Luckily, i use elites - No 1 goes to 1 HP before killing an Mde Inf, Tecumseh goes to two HP, no 3 and 4 lose 1 and 0 HP against D=1 units. Move two Pikes to block Celt Knight from counterattacking our MWs.

(1) Celt Knight kills something (must be English) away from us. End of AI turns London shows a wounded Pike on top - I suspect a three or four Knight attack there!. No more Catapults, I order Knigths all over.

I lose 1 Med Inf taking Burdigala against two Spears. I advance Catapults and Pikemen around the eastern side of London - wee need to kkep a continuos road line covered to avoid useless british Archers to block our fast troops there. All MW go to cities, spend 200 Gold for upgrades.

(2) more upgrades, 320 Gold worth. Troops start for Celtic lands. Bus a settler in Pyongsong as at least one of the border towns will be auto-razed. Kill an exposed Celt Pike.

(3) Pusan deposes!!!

No more mister nice guy - as Korea lacks Horses it is time to kill them soon.
The English take care of another Celt Pikeman. A Celt Med Inf disemabarks next to Burdigala - and meets a MW. the MW retreats doing no damage, and Archer does no damage at all. I love the RNG when it goes inot 'the Ai is getting beat and I want to do somehting about it' mode :mad:

Rush a Spear in Newcasle as it is empty and there is a Celt Galley in view. Now, the RNG behaves as it should - the percentage of HP losses is as it should be. Two retreats, but we kill a pike, 2 spears and a Knight and take Coventry. Catapults reduce a Knight to 1 HP. We have no troops to kill him though.

(4) A Knigth kills himself on our healthy pikeman fortified on a Britsh road. Burdigala falls :mad: we had 3 HP with an attack of 3, three more with an attack of 2 and lost sod all, now the Med Inf takes out the vet Spear :( Well, another MW is on the way. Rush a Temple in Coventry and pile the troops in to heal. Size one it shouldn't flip. Kill one Knight and 1 Longbowman, advance into striking distance of Nottingham (size 3 atm).

(5) An archer(!)counterattacking makes a Knight retreat w/o HP loss.
I start to believe there is a combat bonus for the AIs on higher levels: the two reg Spears in Nottingham (no wall, flat terrain) kill 1 Knight, make two more retrat and leave the winning knights in bad shape :( Kill a hurt Kight and one Longbowman there and one in the open, too.

(6) a two HP Pike in the open kills a vet Knight :mad: :mad: :mad: At öeast Burdigala is no more.

(7) France establishes an embassy. Rush Temple in York to lower flip risk. Kill a Knight and a Longbowman, troops before the walls of Gergovia now. Should fall next run - there#s furs there, too :D We cna then trade them, e.g. to France. because of the Celt Galley I rush a Longbowman in Norwich.

(8) Counterattack are vicious, costing us a Pike and Celts a Lonbow, a Knight and making one Knight retreat with no chance at escape.
The Clets land a knight next to norwich! i knew it :( :mad: I hate the fact that the AI knows the map all the time.
Catapults proove ineffective for both sides this round - neither do our harm Gergiva nor does theirs hurt our Knight who kills a pike and promotes. the second defender is a reg pike who forces one retreat, but then Gergovia is ours. the 1 HP knight is finished off, too.

The Knight next to Norwich wins at two HP :( I do not abandon the town to keep him from healing while he takes it.

I go for Richborough by taking two slaves and positioning them openly for taking, thus distracting two potential counterattackers from our Knights.

(9) the feint partially works: 1 Knight dies (an elite :cry: ), but a Longbowman takes one of the two workers.

our remaining attackers for Richborough kill two Pikes defending wiht one retreat. one guy remaining (I had to kill the LBM to get to the city) I decide not ro push it and go for the exposed Knight that killed our elite instead. A settler is ordered in our capital for the razed cities.

WM and 970 get us gunpowder from india as germany wanted wines and WM and 1297 Gold. Did we break a deal with them ever?????

Chemistry and Astronomy and Banking are around right now, but too expensive. i decide we eill use pointy stick for these from the Celts, then Korea if possible.


looking around i get the sinking feeling in my stomach that WW is about to set in. Lux can onyl come from France - 440 and WM to them for silks.

(10) the feint works again -a Knight grabs the second worker. THis leaves two 4HP knights and a 2 HP one for Richborough.

I knew it! WW is up! 14% now!

Raing Alesia cost us 1 Knight :D Now, the Celts lack a luxury. A Knight landing next to Nottingham is dispatched. Then, an exposed Longbow dies. I retreat from Richborough as I do not want to raze it and there is a healthy Knight behind it that could counterattack.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-350AD.zip

Caution - I did NOT trade at the end of this turn.

Alliance with India runs out this turn.

Suggestion: take Richborough from the Celts and see what else you can get without blocking the Indians, but keep nothing but Gergovia as everything else is too flip-prone.

After the ten turns, end alliance and ROP with Lizzy and take London or better keep ROP and head for Korea. Once the Korean campaign is over, go for London :D


We are a bit weak in tech now, but I would suggest we only care for the path to Cavalry. get that soon and we own about 55% of the land for sure (remember, no horses in Korea until they hook up Manpo), China being an easy target and the west of France being stretched and easy to outlfank. Then, the rather long border with the Celts will allow us to go for them fast. After that, Gandih will find that he is fighting a two-front war. :D

Looks good Killer, I just opened the save and have a couple of comments.

Our only saltpeter source was at Pusan, bastard RNG. We have equal culture with korea and there was no overlap, WTF. Not that we need it too much, we should be on the offensive anyhow. The Koreans have a hooked up source SW of seoul, so we would probably be going against muskets there. It doesn't look like the Celts have any. Also, I looked at our situation with Korea and it says Peace Treaty (14)?!? Does having a city flip reset the peace treaty timer too? :rant: otherwise I would have said get Pusan back ASAP.

Hopefully we can extort some tech from the Celts and trade PP for some more. Then we beeline for MT as Killer says.

Sirp, your up. I'm on deck.

gothmog: I forgot: korea came re-negotiating the peace. no chance but srtaight peace - ****ers!

Teh Celts have saltpeter but I expect the town to fall to the Indians soon, and the source is not hooked up.

It's in the queue...

350AD (IT): We ship gunpowder to China for 65gp + 12gpt + WM.

Between turns, the Celts attack us and kill one of our knights. India wants to sign an alliance against the Celts with us, but only if we give them 12gpt. We don't think so. Ok how about an alliance and you give us 150 gold? You'll do it? Excellent!

360AD (1): ok time to consolidate, we're too spread out, and are getting picked off. Our knights retreat and regroup. I start producing a settler in Hastings. It'll be an English settler, but we'll live with that. We're going to build a city right near the Celt/Indian borders to get that source of Saltpeter!

Now hmm....we have workers chopping down jungle etc up near our FP city while Grand River doesn't have some of its land developed and Niagra Falls is in an even worse situation!

370AD (2): India signs a peace treaty with the Celts. Why thank you for the 150 gold Ghandi.

I start a team of workers trying to get irrigation up to Allegheny and Niagra Falls.

There's a Celtic counter-attack and we trade knights losses, but then kill his second knight on our turn to give us 2-1.

380AD (3): I start transferring workers from our core to our second core. We *really* need to start developing our second core.

I trade Banking from the French for 905 gold + furs. The French are still at least 3 technologies ahead of us.

IBT the Celts attack us again and kill one of our knights.

390AD (4): WW hits :( It wasn't set to "show dialog on civil disorder", so a whole lot of cities go under, and I can do nothing about it.

I end up having to put luxury rates up by 10%. Now we have banking I start to switch core cities over to building banks.

The Frenchies landed a musketeer-settler pair on the northern part of *our* land!

We attack the Celtic knight after bombarding, and.....get a Great Leader, Red Cloud!

400AD (5): Ok I think we want Smith's with our Great Leader. An army is an attractive option, but Smiths will give us a real economic boost. So, I buy economics off India. I thought I'd be able to get a cool 2-for-1 with Astronomy from Korea, but Korea is talking too high a price for Astronomy.

410AD (6): I use our GL to rush Smith's.

Another Celtic knight kills one of ours.

420AD (7): The city of Caughnwhaga is founded on the north end of our continent; just beating the French to the site. We're almost ready to settle our saltpeter city right up near the Celts.

430AD (8): The Celts are now willing to give us Astronomy in exchange for peace. We really want AStronomy *and* Norwich though, which we are close to getting.

Sadly, the AIs have researched Printing Press themselves; just a handful of turns before us :(

440AD (9): The Celts land a knight right next to Niagra Falls, which is defended by a warrior. Thankfully, I haven't left our interior undefended, leaving a few knights around to take care of intrusions like this.

450AD (10): The Koreans declare war on the French. Good news for us I feel. With the Koreans going east, they are ripe for an attack from the west. Still, with mustketman defenders, taking Pu'san back isn't going to be easy.

I've left some knights up near Norwich for the next player to decide what to do with. They can attack the city or they can wait there. I'd much rather get the city off the Celts if possible by peace, but we want Astronomy off them too. Then we have to decide what we want to do next: Keep the war going with the Celts, or turn back to attack England or Korea?

Good Luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-450AD.zip)

I think if we raze the city that Killer was talking about (with the silks...), we would be able to get both astronomy and Norwich from the Celts. I think we should have enough knights to take that city...

JMB

'I got it'

We are getting alot of nice wonders for a warmongering tribe! I'll be looking to raze the silk city and get Norwich+astronomy if possible, although I'll try not to break any treaties in the process. Fun fun fun.

Yeah we could have razed the silk city, and I did try bombarding it, but it looked well-defended, and I'm not sure I wanted to lose as many knights as I think it'd take to capture the city. Now that's Gothmog's call though :)

-Sirp.

Preturn – India not at war with the Celts anymore? Backstabbers. Looking over the map it’s time to have peace with the Celts, kill England, then take on Korea! I decide to just take Norwich, one Knight does it. It doesn’t autoraze and has an English citizen. I see the French Musket but no settler? I also attack Nuremberg: Elite Knight beats Pike, 2nd Elite Knight wins and we get another Leader! An army will help with the assault on London and Pusan. I also capture two workers outside of Nuremberg. I notice that our peace treaty with England is up. I move all our troops out of her territory so we can declare on them without breaking any treaties. It would be great if the Celts could get another tech to give us for peace, so I hold off on calling Brennus. Click…

IT – Kill Celt Knight attacking Oka. England calls and offers Peace straight up, I decline. We are at War with England. For some reason WW jumps and a couple cities go into disorder. Time for peace w/Celts.

460 AD – Brennus gives us Astronomy+WM+15g+2gpt for peace (doubtful with 3gpt), then I turn down lux to 0% and swap some labor for another 54gpt. Troops move towards England.

IT – Knight retreats from English Longbow.

470 AD – Diplo check, Germans don’t have Nav but have Chem so I buy Nav from India for 600+Furs+WM. Then Chem from Germany for Furs+Wines+Nav+475. France has a monopoly on Physics, France India and Korea have Met. Knight kills English Longbow.

IT – Saltpeter hooked up. Palace expands (x3). London starving now.

480 AD – rush racks in Coventry. Attack on London: Army kills elite pike and promotes. Only regular pike left. Vet Knight retreats from reg Pike, Vet Knight retreats from reg Pike, vet kills pike, vet kills pike, vet dies, MW kills wounded Pike, but there is one redlined pike left.

IT – PP comes in. Min res at Democracy as we want MT ASAP. Palace expands.

490 AD – Army kills pike in London. A spear left, must have been cash rushed. Vet Knight kills him and London is ours + GW + Pyramids! Nice. I move 3 Knights towards Warwick.

500 AD – Attack Warwick: Vet Knight dies, Elite Knight kills spear, vet Knight kills wounded spear. England is gone.

IT – Celts start moving troops north. Palace expands again. French complete Magellins.

510 AD – Diplo check. By Met from France for Dyes+Gems+490g+16gpt (@5th). France has MT too (monopoly). Swap Centralia from cathedral to bank.

IT – Celts continue home.

520 AD – Knights in Pyongsong now.

IT – Celts and France sign a MA vs. Korea, allmost dogpile time!

530 AD – Call up France. They want 85gpt or 70+MA vs Korea for MT (@3rd). I decide we want flexability and since we have 293gpt income I give India 84 gpt for it. I upgrade all but elite Knights to Cav (only 10 gold each, what a deal).

IT – Celts move back towards Korea. France complete Newtons.

540 AD – War with Korea. Attack Pusan: Cav retreats from musket, Cav kills reg musket, Cav kills wounded musket. Pusan ours. There is still one Iroquoi living there too. I trade Celts Met for Silks.

IT – France takes Canturberry from Korea and I see a French Cav.

550 AD – Finger Fart puts a Cav on a mountain near Salamanca.

JMB, your up. Have fun taking it to Korea.

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1_550AD.zip

Alright, got it.

BTW Gothmog, once we defeated England, did you declare war on Korea right away? If not, weren't we at peace with all civs for 2-3 turns?

JMB

0 - Wake a couple of knights in our northern territory and send them south. Change 3 cities to settlers as I intend on razing the Korean cities. IBT, we complete the Heroic Epic.

1 - 2 Muskets in Pyongyang forces 2 cavs to retreat. The next 3 cavs take out the 3 muskets (with our reg cav promoting...) and we raze Pyongyang and capture 2 workers. IBT, nothing much.

2 - The taking of Paegam: First two cavs retreat from muskets. 3/4 cav defeats musket. Our army takes out the last 2/3 musket and we raze Paegam. Upgrade a bunch of our pikemen. IBT, Korea and France sign a peace treaty. A Korean longbowman takes out our MI.

3 - Elite knight takes out a Korean longbowman. We take out a korean spear settler pair with an elite knight. IBT, nothing much. Several other Civs already have Democracy...

4 - Nothing much. Celts and Chinese sign a MA against the Koreans.

5 - The taking of Seoul. Vet cav versus elite musket, retreats. Second cav dies to a vet musket. Third cav retreats. Fourth dies. Fifth retreats. Sixth kills elite musket. Seventh takes out reg musket. Our eighth takes out the final musket and we raze the city.

6 - The taking of Wonsan. Army versus vet musket, wins. Vet cav versus reg musket, dies. Vet cav versus reg musket, retreats. Vet cav versus 1 hp reg musket dies, promoting the musket. Elite knight takes out 2/3 musket. Next elite knight takes out 2/4 musket, and a pikeman remains. Vet cav versus reg pikeman, dies, leaving the pikeman with 1 hp. Unload 3 cav on the island near our core.

I decide to purchase Democracy from India for dyes, wines, 975 gold, and 45 gpt. Then, I trade Democracy to the Celts for Physics. I could purchase TOG from Joanie and use it to broker for Magnetism from India, but we'd be purchasing at 2nd, and it just isn't worth it... IBT, nothing.

7 - The taking of Wonsan, part II. Vet cav versus reg pikeman, we win, razing wonsan. Vet cav versus reg spear, wins. Vet cav versus reg spear, we take Taejon. Both Joanie and Gandhi are in the Industrial Age.

8 - ??

9 - Vet warrior against 1/4 longbowman on island wins and promotes. We take Tatung. IBT, WW hits and several cities fall into disorder.

10 - The taking of Namp'o and elimination of the Koreans... Vet cav versus 3/5 elite pikeman, dies, doing 1 point. 2nd Cav takes out the pikeman, and we capture a catapult and capture the city. The Koreans have been destroyed. Hurry an aqueduct in Coventry for (276 gold).

We aren't currently at war with anyone, so we need to declare war before the end of this turn. I don't think we shoud declare on the French, Indians or Celts (mainly because we have ongoing deals with them, our forces are very spread out, and, overall, we are very poorly defended). We have no ongoing deals with the Chinese, and our deals with Biz should end within 2 turns. I think we should declare on one of them (I favour the Chinese, because our forces are in the area...). However, we shouldn't push the war too much, but rather use the time to consolidate our offensive troops (and defenders) so that we can take on one of the world leaders (France and India) before they discover nationalism. I think everyone but Biz and Mao has a lot of troops that they can throw at us, so we should concentrate on fortifying our defenses and let them gas themselves attacking us before going on the offensive.

I have left several units (knights and cavalrymen) around Namp'o still with movement. The next leader can decide what to do with them...

We really need to get into the industrial age soon so that we can get steam power (to get our troops around more quickly, and improve our shield output). Also, the sooner we get to the industrial age, the sooner we can do some effective one scientist research (I have gotten rid of our scientist, because we can't afford to wait 40 turns to get the next few techs...)

We are making a fair bit gpt wise, so feel free to rush things like courthouses around our 2 cores (especially around our FP) to help increase our shield output and income. The next leader might also want to rush several of the temples in our new lands to help expand our borders.

Also, let's prioritize growth over shields until we get cities up to size 12 (a couple of the cities around our capital could be mined now...).

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW650AD.zip

JMB

JMB, yes I was technically at peace for 3 turns. I decided a while ago (and I posted about it) that we are such a bloodthirsty group of warmongers (yes you included) that we could stick to the spirit rather than the letter of the OW rule. We were in fact already at war with Korea, they just didn't know it yet. I did the same thing when we oscillated to England from Korea, I think it was 3 turns then too. I feel that a few turns of moving troops to a new border between wars is fine, just no extended periods of peace for the purpose of building infrastructure or anything non warmongerish like that.

You took out the Koreans in 10 turns. I would not have razed all their cities, just not left troops in them and a cav or two within striking range. A flip or two wouldn't have hurt us, especially if we had disconnected their saltpeter first. Then we would have claimed a few markets and aquaducts, etc. Definitely not :smoke: I am just commenting on different styles of play.

I think China could be next. In fact it might be good to get India and France at War by declaring on one of them and getting the other into a MA. The tech pace is heating up again and we want to push them into more warring. As many civs as possible should be at war. Rails will definitely speed things up. The Pyramids should help our growth rate too.

Killer, your up.
Sirp, on deck.

Gothmog, I agree about the markets... Fortunately, we didn't need to worry about the aqueducts as all their cities were along rivers (they had quite a nice starting location...). Since their tiles were all pretty well developed (and because we have the pyramids), our new cities should grow very quickly.

I decided to raze the cities as we could use more workers to take care of the jungles around our FP (we can also use them to boost several of our slow growing core cities up to size 12...) and because I really didn't have enough troops to leave a cav or two behind to guard a city (if you check out the save file, you'll see how poorly we are defended... I decided to push eliminating Korea because they were being punished pretty hard by the other civs and I didn't want them (the other AIs) getting more of our territory...). Here's a question: Doesn't flipping increase WW?

JMB

That is a good question. I have never noticed flipping increasing WW, but it is possible. It isn't as bad as having a city taken or I would have noticed that, it may be that it can cause some WW if the city has some of your own citizens in it but not otherwise. Normally if one flips with my citizens in it, I'm at peace (but not for long) and so no WW there either.

Slave workers are certainly nice, as is the Korean land. With our free granaries the new cities will definitely grow quickly. As far as leaving cav's behind, with their three movement as long as roads are intact they don't have to be too near - but I know we didn't have many extras around. I'm glad you took the Korean island out too. Nice work.

got it

move several units into position to attack Caton next turn. defender is a spear :D At enormous cost I buy both mag & ToG - othrwise, we are in deep trouble. The deal leaves us broke and will cost 52/turn and furs to india, too, but if we wait....... I spread the buy to France and India. Sadly, the furs mean we cannot go to war with India, so it will have to be with France vs. india

(1) decide to skim a worker of Sal. Several Muskets ordered. We should soon start prebuilds for Factories though. For that time, sufficient Cavalry to kill advancing eneies must be avaiable, so some Cav will have to be mixed into the production, too.

Take Canton with knights. Cav for Macao. Will now go slow to give India time to get Nat, then we can perhaps buy it and start war with France to slow them. Without Nat we shouldn't do it.

(2) Franc and Germany sign MPP. Celts renegotiate peace. No chance for war atm. 2 Cav die, 1 retreats attacking regular(!) Spears in Beijing :mad:

(3) india and France sign MPP, China kills retreated Cav with longbowman.


I will let this rest until tomorrow, I do not fell I have a lucky hand right now.

Killer, just wondering what the consequences of not getting mag&ToG right away would have been? I assume you just mean getting to Nationalism, but anything else? Did all the other civ's have those techs already? or just France and India.

gothmog: france and India had them both, and they were at peace. France started moving Musketmen towards us and the attitude went to furious (should have mentioned that). Also, once China is dead we need to go to war somewhere due to the rules....... and that will have to be either of the two or Germany (and remember MPPs here!), because i expected the Celts to come for another 20 turns peace.

Remember: NOT prolonging a peace is a MAJOR Rep hit!

Also, the other civs were so far from the techs that the price wouldn't have dropped much anyways as they wouldn't have gotten them soon. Celts are broke, so is Bizzy.

So good, I was just wondering.

I'm not sure about the not prolonging peace being a rep hit. When England came to prolong the peace I refused and I didn't notice anything from that. It had been hooked to a MA and RoP (I moved all our troops out of English territory the turn before), I could still get gpt to and from the Celts just after - but I guess they were at war with Liz too so that doesn't tell us anything. You got what sounds like good gpt terms from the Indians and French though.

u-hu, maybe the instances I remember had to do with combined ROPs......

India is NOT per turn, but flat cash so we CAN go to war there if we have to.

or even if we want too :mwaha:

Killer, you going to get to this one soonish? Technically it's been 48 hours since your 'got it', but you did post a partial (of course that was 48 hours ago too). Anyway, let me know - the next 24 hours would be prefered.

gothmog: Once I get out of the workgroup meeting in 2h I will post the rest - finished the trun on my Laptop which cannot hook up to your new network yet :rolleyes:

to show you why I bought the two techs:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/whyIbought.jpg

if one of the two went to war with us we'd have to buy 3 techs from one civ - one we wouldn't be able to go to war with to recover money by taking cities. Not good! Also, we are in the age of MPPs now, and an MPP between India and France seemed likely (as did happen soon after). This again means that we might have been at war with both all of a sudden - and without a chance to get Riflemen from anwhere.


(3) continued: kill the pesky LBM. China has no horses, no iron, no saltpeter. So I decided to let the war effort slacken a bit to bring us up to strength again. No mroe infrastructure but those buildings almost done. Cavalry and Musketmen in heaps.
To minimize losses I will ONLY use the Army to attack China. Fullfilling the OW rule at minimum ;)
I refrain from buying Temples in the south as the next war should happen somewhere else so we hopefully won't need closed borders there. Only France has Nat atm.

(4) Kill the second defender of Beijing - retreat army to heal. Order 1 Musket into every city - an empty size 7 city on the coast can lure the AI into sending a boat. By the time they land, the AI will already have decided to go to war and there is no way to stop it. No need to try them.....

(5) slip of finger skips army (:mad: at me ). Rush a Temple in Nuremberg - didn't see the horrible culture ratio there before. Why was there a bonus grass irrigated near Brighton? - that town needs every single shield! Change that. Mine like crazy on hills around FP. Then on to London.

(6) Allegheny starts Cathedral - 6 :D 1 :) 5 :( is NOT a good ratio as we are at 0% WW. If that goes up to only 7% we will need 20% lux! :eek: I think a few bucks for Catehdrals are worht it, and no need to watch our culture. Same for Grand River and London and Mauch. Sal has one already.
India has Nat now, wants two lux and 2800 cash and 151(/turn. I laugh in Gandihs face, but we may have to pay an exorbitant price soon. No chance to beeline to Infantry here! They will do the trade minus the two lux even, but will not yield ojn the money at all. Seems the two lux are only worth 100 cash or so to them.

I check with France: they demand slightly less, but just got Steam Power. That one only cost a tiny bit more: WM and 190 per and all 2800 cash flat. As we have to longer standing deal with India (i.e. runs our first) I decide to buy from France, then try to swap for Nat with india. We really can use the rails, and it will not help our bartering position if France pulls ahead in cahs because they have rails and we lack them.

Suddenly, Dyes are worth 430 GOld to France. Nat is 164 per and Steam and WM from india. Again - the price will not drop as the others are way beind on this issue, both Celts and Germans lack ToG! Taking means another 20 turns with India - I don't like that. France wants a whopping 304 per and Dyes for Nat.

Seeing as our own research would take 21 turns I buy Nat from india at 158 per and Steam. :(
I take the 430 from France for Dyes - best that we can get ATM. Gandhi pays up 14 per and 80 for two lux.

We have 1 coal hooked up in Tyendaga, 1 near Pusan out of city reach, 1 near Hastings in 21 tiles, 1 near Cawanaugha in 9 tiles, 1 next to Brighton, 1 near Warwick in 21. Rrush Temple there.

sidenote: I hate the ****ing RNG - the AIs never lack a res if they have money, only when they are broke! Both India and France have 1(!) coal each(!). Celts don't have coal, as usual.


(7) A chinese LBM wanders into our lands. The army loses 8 HP killing him :eek: Start railing. France has reached Indus already.

(8)

(9) Paris is a town of drama freaks. They build a huge theater. Werid though that they name it after an Englishman.

(10) Guess what!




The French declare war on us! They kill a Cav defending Macao, another Cav of theirs retreats from a Rifle in Pusan.
They French moved a LOT of Med Inf and LBM and Rilfes (8 units I saw) into Canterbury.

India will not go to war with France at any offer. But they will MPP with us at WM and 260. I take that, aware of the risks (Celts have a LOT of Cav) but what can we do? The ex-Korean lands are there for the taking!

The Cav next to Macao takes only 1 HP damage in two Cav counters (OK, OK, across river, but it is in ****ing flooplains after all!). I abandon the now empty city :(

I leave it here, production unchanged and upgrades undone.

Frqance has troops in our lands and will be at war with india next turn. Watch out if India starts war with someone else like the Celts....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-770AD.zip

Watch out - France has MPP with Germany!!!

For saltperter, Germany will MPP with us.

Looks like we did need the Nationalism ASAP, good call. If I read it correctly we got out of a big gpt payment to France, and no longer give them dyes (which they paid upfront for), that's good too. We can use that cash to upgrade our defences.

I think getting Germany into the war would be a good call, all war all the time :D . We are the monster in this game and need not fear creating one. Once India declares on France they will be fighting a two front war, it shouldn't be a problem for us even if the Celts do come in on the French side, then they will be at war with India (and potentially Germany) too. Multiple multifront wars for everybody is just what we want, it will give us a strategic advantage.

Remember we are Religious, so if we end up with large WW at some point we can easily swap to Monarchy.

Sirp, your up and I'm on deck.

gothmog: I got that cold clammy feeling down my spine when I saw France move troops towards us right at the start.... She's a mean one......

yes, we saved a lot of cash per and they paid flat for the Dyes, and there was the 12-to-go deal for ToG with per turn, also! :D

Any chance of the demographics and power graph please? :)


Edit: and maybe the diplo screen?

ah, anarres, the diplo is as follows:

France at war with us, MPP with India (but will go to war next interturn), MPP with Germany (will not be triggered by us, but maybe India), at peace with China.

India MPP with us. MPP with France but will go to war due to MPP with us right away, peace with the rest of the world, no treaties.

Germany at peace with all, MPP with France

Celts at peace everywhere, no MPP IIRC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1power.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1culture.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1diplo.jpg

ok got it.

-Sirp.

Thx Killer :)

Early: I look upon our empire, impressed at the progress we have made. Still, our borders are tentatively defended, and I prepare for the French to give us a fight.

Any workers not building railroads and who have more than 1 turn left on what they're doing have their tasks cancelled in favor of railroads.

The French attack us at Ganoegh, but our musket man kills their knight. They attack us with cavalry at Namp'o, which is defended by just a cavalry and a catapult. We narrowly hold the city.

hmm...ok guys, there's a pretty serious SoD coming up towards Warwick. Eight units altogether, including two cavalry and a rifle. I have to pull defenders from London and Coventry over to help out, then I draft from those cities. And uhh...I send the drafted troops over to help out as well.

Things start to get serious on turn 3. The French attack Ganoegh which is defended by a rifleman and a cavalry with a cavalry, who gets our rifleman down to red before the rifle fights back and wins. Then another cavalry attacks, and kills our cavalry. Not good. A third cavalry attacks, and our rifleman wins all rounds redlined to win, and promotes to elite. A fourth cavalry attacks, and we fight bravely, but come up short. Ganoegh falls to the Frenchies.

Then uhh...the situation at Warwick grows a little more grim. *Another* SoD, with another 8 units is right behind the first SoD. Walls rushed at Warwick. I feel compelled to draft again at London.

Ganoegh is recaptured, with the loss of one cavalry, while the Frenchies lose 3, but lets say that the city's immediate future is less than certain.

Germany and India go to war, which means we're now at war with Germany. At least it's not the Celts!

Middle: French frigates are bombarding our coastline. We have to get some ironclads.

The French stack launches a half hearted attack against Warwick, before they all turn around and decide to head home!

Three rifles arrive to defend Ganoegh. *Now* its future is looking a little more certain.

hmm...compared to the Celts we have a strong military, while compared to the French our military is weak. The Celts seem to have lots of troops from where I'm looking!

By 810AD, the Great Railway spans from Salamanca to Pusan. We still need to get it further south though.

Our first ironclad is produced, and puts a French ship at the bottom of the sea.

Late:

The French land a rifleman on our small western island who we slaughter. Two French ships at the bottom of the ocean, and counting.

Our ironclad got down to 2, and so now French frigates target it. The first one redlines it before it fights back, wins and promotes to elite! The second attacks it and redlines it again, but it fights back and wins again!

War weariness hits, and we have to use the luxury slider.

The French now have industrialization, but no-one else does.

I end my turn in 850AD instead of 870AD: sorry for not going to full 10, but I think it's better to hand it over now then have to wait another 12 hours to do so.

Our one ironclad is doing well fending off the French navy but I suggest we build more. Let's bombard *their* coastline!

I didn't manage to take any cities during my turn, a common theme, I'd like to think that I contribute by building up our infrastructure so others can reap the goods by capturing cities, but maybe the truth is that I'm just not that good at aggressive warfare :)

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-850AD.zip)

Sirp: given the situation I handed you (the words hot potatoe come to mind) you did very well! Holding ground is often hard if an AI comes for you full force, but just hold ground for 5 to 8 turns and you will usually win the war! The next player just needs to shift from defence to offence now that the first onslaught is over.

Yeah Killer, I guess I did ok; I just get tired of being such a compulsive builder sometimes, and wish I could work out how to do some proper warmongering for a change :)

-Sirp.

Not having looked at the save yet, I'd say you did good (yes, like a Saint). Fighting the good fight, whether it be offensive or defensive. Killer handed you a game where the most powerful AI had just declared war on us right after we finished off Korea and then China. Defenses were in order no doubt :thumbsup: . Also, no problem taking less than 10, as I stated before at this point anywhere between 5 and 10 is great. With all this warfare we want to have time to think.

'I got it' , not sure what tack I will take yet. I have to look it over first.

Go Fighting Iroquoi!! :yeah:

ah, gothmog, watch out, China is still there!

Preturn: MW Spring wont need a harbor until after a hospital so I swap it to rifleman. We need more railroads in our core. What is China still doing alive? I move our Knight army and a couple cav over towards Bejing and a couple rifles down to our southern reaches. Bejing is protected by spearmen? :mwaha: The cav wont be able to reach Bejing next turn though, due to our lack of roads down to the south of our empire.

IT – Two French Cav attack Namp’o. First loses, second retreats. French stack moves back away from Warwick. French land a rifle on our western isle. Our palace expands.

860 AD – Taejon starves due to landed rifle. I attack Bejing with our army and kill two spear. Our Elite Knight also attacks and redlines but defeats another spear. I attack the rifle on the western isle with two Cav, first retreats and the second mops him up. I kill the cav that retreated from Namp’o with a rifle. I move workers to concentrate on railroading our uncorrupt cities. I draft from Allegheny and Grand River, which were both size 12 with full food boxes and no current draft weariness. Niagra Falls hits 20 spt for a cav or rifle every 4 turns. I hire a couple entertainers to kick off WLTKD in some corrupt cities.

IT – French stack moves in near Pusan (come to me my sweet). India and China make peace. China lands a longbow on our west isle.

870 AD – Our elite ironclad dies attacking a french frigate. Our army attacks Bejing and again kills two spear, that does it and we own Bejing. I hire 10 taxmen. I redirect our cav to Chenju. First one does two damage to a spear before dying ( :confused: ), second kills a spear, and the third kills the wounded spear. Chenju is ours. I blast the french stack near Pusan with our cannon, do lots of damage. An elite warrior on our western isle takes out the Chinese longbow, but no leader. I go at the French stack near Pusan and our Cav kill 4 rifle, 1 cav, and 2 MI, two of ours promote. I keep going with rifles and kill the remaining MI and two longbow. I give 2700 gold to India for Industrialization, straight up. I start factories in Salamanca and Grand River. Workers help Grand River and Cattarugus reach 20 spt.

IT – French cav kills our rifle outside of Namp’o (I really want to hook up that Ivory). York, cav -> factory; Cheju, market -> factory; Tonawanda, worker -> factory; St Regis, cav -> factory.

880 AD – Leader fish on two Chinese spear that moved into our territory, no dice. I kill the cav that killed our rifle last IT then move a couple extra rifles and workers onto the ivory there. I rush the factory in Salamanca for 616 gold. A Chinese galley sinks our Frigate.

IT – Germany and India make peace, I notice that our MPP with India is no longer active. Salamanca is now at 45 spt after the factory and some worker help, that’s a cav or rifle every two turns. Pyongsong, bank -> factory.

890 AD – I take peace with Germany for 30+5gpt. Then I give them saltpeter for a MA vs. France+Free Artistry+5gpt. Attack on Xinjan: army kills spear, cav kills spear. Xinjan is ours. I move in some reinforcements, but no rifles could reach Xinjan this turn. I take peace with China for 5 gold. I decide to make India pay for their betrayal and steal a tech from them, I succede and we get Communism for 1150 gold (I thought they had Corporation, but I guess only France does). I move a stack o’ cav towards Canterberry. I rush a couple of courthouses and move another few workers to help hook up Ivory.

IT – The french counter attack Xinjan and kill two of our cav, our Knight army survives though. Rifles arrive next turn. London, bank -> factory; Niagra Falls, cav -> factory; Disease hits Hastings; Allegheny, rifle -> factory; MW Springs, rifle -> factory; Mauch Chunk, cav -> factory.

900 AD – I give the Celts Communism for a MA vs. the French (+17gold+3gpt). Our ironclad kills a French frigate. What the hell, I give China Democracy for a MA vs. the French. Attack on Canterbury: cav redlines without doing any damage, then decides not to retreat and ends up killing a rifle! Second cav redlines and retreats without doing any damage to another rifle. Third cav kills a reg rifle. That was the last one and Canterbury is razed, we get six slaves. The Ivory is hooked up now, good thing too because WW just increased. I rush a settler from Bejing. I rush a market in Coventry for the happiness (two entertainers there). I rush courthouses in Ganogeh, Gandasetaigon, and Chondote.

IT – I see some French ironclads. The Celts are moving east and a couple troops enter our territory. No problem as I already have rifles up there. Ganogeh, courthouse -> temple (to claim the game); Bejing, settler -> temple; Salamanca, cav -> rifle; Gandasetaigon courthouse -> market, Tyendenaga, rifle -> factory; Canton, racks -> worker; Pusan, cav -> factory; Coventry market -> courthouse; Chondote, courthouse -> market. No counter in former China. India has Corporation now. Our first pollution shows up outside Salamanca.

910 AD – Gewanga founded on former Canterbury site -> temple. Attack on Dijon: vet cav kills reg rifle, vet cav does 1 damage and retreats, vet cav razes Dijon. There were three workers already in there and we get an additional French slave as well.

IT – Celts continue trek east. Our ironclad dies to French one doing zero damage.

920 AD - Move to attack former Chinese current French holding. I rush the factory in Grand River for 568 gold.

IT – The Celts are now out of our territory. The French wipe out the Chinese. Verulamium (Indian) flips to the Celts. Hastings market -> factory.

930 AD – Our deals with India expire and we are now at 649 gpt! I am not going to give India any of our luxuries. They are a Democracy and at war. We don’t need the Corporation yet either as we are still building factories everywhere.

IT – India calls up. They offer spices for wines+52 gpt. Nope. After I decline, they call up again and offer 14 gpt for furs and silks, again I decline. I have never seen that before, I guess WW is a big problem for them. Whoops, Xinjan falls to a long range Cav swoop. I had moved units out for the coming assaults and thought I could get a rifle there, but a slip of the finger made him come up short, no worries though. Palace exands. The French land a rifle next to Kahnawake.

940 AD – I retake Xinjan with the elite rifle that was on his way there and we get a leader! I name the unit Payback and rush Suffrage in Canton. Attack on Nanking: elite cav redlines before defeating a regular rifle, second elite cav redlines and retreats doing zero damage to a reg rifle, vet cav does two damage and retreats, vet cav does one damage and retreats, vet cav kills wounded rifle, the last vet cav kills the last redlined rifle and I raze Nanking. Attack on Tsingtao: elite cav retreats doing zero damage to a vet rifle, vet cav does zero damage and dies, vet cav does two damage and retreats, vet cav does two damage and retreats, vet cav kills wounded rifle and promotes, vet cav redlines but kills wounded rifle and we raze Tsingtao. Grand River hits 42 spt with some mining over irrigation. I rush the factory in Niagra Falls for 636 gold. I found Goigouen on former Tsingtao site.

IT – French call up but wont even give corporation for peace. Fools. A Celt frigate kills a French one. France and India come to peace. A French cav dies while countering the cav that razed Nanking. Brighton, bank -> factory.

950 AD – I raze Hangchow. Attack on Grenoble: vet cav does zero damage to vet rifle and retreats, same for the second one. I decide to wait on this attack. Niagra Falls hits 40 spt with some mining over irrigation.

Notes: We are taking it to the French now, as the factories complete we will really start to roll. Feel free to rush a couple in key locations. We can get India into a MA vs. France for just 150 gold if wanted. It might be good just so they maybe fall from Democracy and don’t start researching out in front. After the French are almost gone we could get some tech from them for peace and take it to the Celts, then the Germans, before attacking the Indians, but it wont matter too much. It’s all downhill from here. Noone has researched Medicine, so RP is a long way away. We should be able to finish this one off with cavalry. I hope you have as much fun as I did, JMB.

The save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1_950AD.zip

and a screen shot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM_950AD.jpg

Well we want to finish it asap, and that means finishing it with cavalry I think. Replaceable parts would be great for our workers, but our enemies getting infantry would make it difficult to win before tanks.

I'm thinking we can make India remain our friends for the remainder of the game. We should easily be able to attain Domination without having to attack them.

Gothmog, MW Springs was building a harbor so it could start building some veteran ironclads, not for the food benefits. We need more naval units!

-Sirp.

Yes, I want to finish this with Cav and given that no one has medicine we should be able to. If india stays out of war and in democracy they would be the only possibility for RP. I wasn't even doing token research.

I thought about the vet ironclads, but it didn't seem as important as more ground troops (not to mention that I lost all but one naval battles, I've never had good luck with ironclad). Then factories came along... The French navy wont make or break this game.

We could have India as Friends, but we could also go for conquest. I'm up for either, but leaning towards conquest. Domination would mean building lots of settlers and rushing lots of temples, while conquest means building cav and razing cities. Let's see what Killer and JMB think.

domination is fine wih me, conquest is better :D

It was rather late last night that I was playing so forgive the :smoke:...

0 - I sort of agree about the rep parts comment, I still think we should at least do some 1-scientist research (especially b/c we have many entertainers throughout our lands...). It probably won't matter as the game will probably be over before 80 turns, but, I am hoping that India will discover Electricity before we do so that we can buy it and begin 40-turn research on Rep Parts. We begin researching Electricity (I consider Medicine instead, and then decide against it). Seeings as we won't be building hospitals in this game, I stop improving more than 12-13 tiles within a cities radius (e.g., the workers clearing the jungle outside of Tyendenaga). I hurry the factories in Catt, Pyongsong, and St. Regis. Hurry harbor in Taejon.

IT - Our cav outside of Grenoble dies. 3 French cavs threaten our workers...

1 - Vet cav versus vet cav, wins without taking a scratch. Second one takes out a cav, but is in the red. The third, dies, doing 2 points, but promoting the cav. Fortunately, our army takes it out. Hurry courthouse in Caug.

IT - A 1/4 cav dies to a vet french cav. 2 unimportant cities riot (I guess WW went up...).

2 - Our elite knight takes out a 1/4 cav. Joanie has Electricity... Our Cav loses to a french one on our island. Our second cav takes it out.

3 - Hurry factories in All, Cent, and Tyen. Hurry settler in Chengdu. 3 vet cavs win versus 2 riflemen and a cav; the fourth cav retreats. We raze the city, capture a worker and get 111 gold. Hurry marketplace in Kahnawake (to help deal with unhappiness.

4 - We take out a French cavalryman.

5 - Vet cav takes out French vet cav and promotes. Hurry factory in Ton. Gandhi and Joanie both have Electricity and Medicine on us...

6 - The taking of Marseilles... First cav dies, but redlines the rifleman. The second does the same. Our third kills the defender. Our elite takes out the next one. Our next elite dies to a 1 hp vet rifleman, promoting him. The next vet takes him out. The elite knight takes out a 1 hp cav and we capture 3 workers and raze the city... Hurry factory in Mauch Chunk.

7 - The taking of Rouen... First two Vet cavs die, doing no damage (the second promotes the rifleman. Third dies. Fourth kills rifleman. Next two win versus damaged riflemen. Vet cav dies against a cav. Next one dies without doing a single point and promotes the cav.
Finally, we raze rouen and capture 2 workers. Elsewhere, our army takes out a rifleman.

I am beginning to think it is time to go after India... I was going to make peace with the French, but we still have ongoing alliances. Our ironclad sinks a French one... IT, we lose 2 cav to the French counterattack and our marketplace in Kahn (the one I just rushed!) to bombardment. Even though a navy really isn't that important, we still need one... (b/c of the bombardment and because they keep dropping off troops in out back territory...)

8 - Not much.

9 - Our ironclad loses to a French one... Vet cav on island takes out another French vet cav.

10 - More cities in disorder (it is getting late...). We really need to get out of this war with France... The taking of Rheims. Whoops, France already has Rep parts... (fortunately, no infantry yet) One cav retreats, the next dies. The next retreats. The next retreats. The next two die. We kill a rifleman, then retreat, then kill 3. Our final cav takes out a cav and we raze the city (unfortunately destroying an artillery...).

Once we can make Peace with Joanie, I think we should buy Electricity from her (we will have a substantially reduced price...) and sign her into a military alliance versus India (or an MPP). Once she has declared war on India, we should purchase (for gpt) Rep Parts from her, or better yet, steal it safely (it'll likely be cheaper and if Joanie declares war on us, that is fine...). We should also try to figure out if anyone has Sanitation. If so, we might want to also consider purchasing that and using our huge (moving all of them around probably occupied most of the 2.5 hours I played...) number of (very slow! Rep Parts will be so nice from that perspective...) workers to bump up our populations in our two cores... There are a lot of tiles in our second core (and several in our main core...) that aren't yet fully improved (or even slightly in our second core...) but are being used...

We should also sign everyone else against India. I am for keeping everyone else in the game right now because their cores are useful to them (and us if they are helping us out). If we were to take them out, their cities wouldn't help us out much as they wouldn't be very productive to us (or our newly settled cities wouldn't be very useful to us...)

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW1050AD.zip

Have fun Killer! (and make sure you have enough time... 10 turns will probably take at least 2 hours...)

JMB

Woah, that's a fast tech pace. India at peace is definitely not what we wanted. The French have RP already, danm, that will slow us down considerably. We'll need it for Arti ASAP, I guess I was optimistic about having a slow tech pace.

I think if we try to steal from France and she declares on us our WW will be back full strength so factor that in.

I'm going out of town on Thursday afternoon (I might be able to play thursday morning though), until Sunday night and wont have access to civ3 during that time.

Well, if we don't want to attempt stealing from France, we could do the same against India (and perhaps get them to declare war on us...).

I think you are right about the WW. I forgot about that (of course, she'd be declaring on us so we might get a bit of a boost...)

At present, Joanie doesn't have any rubber (and from the looks of her lands, she might not have any... For that matter, India probably doesn't have any either. It would be great if we were only ones with rubber (we certainly have enough jungle for it...)), so we are still facing riflemen. We should be able to take 1-2 more cities within the next 5 turns or so.

JMB

got it - will play early tomorrow I hope.

Ah, I read a bit quickly last night and thought you had encountered an infantry, great that you didn't. I was wondering where their rubber might be (when I should have been sleeping) as their former Chinese holdings were the most likely spots. We want to deny Rubber to all other civ's as a top priority (along with getting RP for ourselves). It would be great to march a stack of infantry onto all the non-iroquois rubber. The Celts may have rubber, if they don't have RP yet we want to block their rubber before they get it.

If we are going for conquest then it is time to start razing cities and only using settlers to gain quick access to enemy territory. Stealing tech from India might be a good call. We want India at war with someone for sure. We may be at the point where our reputation is no real issue and we can afford to be at war with everyone for the duration (of course we would like them fighting among themselves as well). Remember that we can go to monarchy any time we want, and while research and income are reduced - production is not affected.

Edit: if it needed to be said, we will finish this one with the current patch.

Bump...

Killer, it's been 48 hours since your 'I got it'. Are the Fighting Iroquois forgotten?

No big deal, I am going out of town tomorrow (be back Sunday night), so it looks like I should be back in time for my spot in the rotation at this rate. I should be able to play Sunday night if it's on the server. If things move a bit more quickly then JMB should feel free to play and I'll swap with him for this round.

Gothmog (be back Sunday)
JMB
Killer (playing?)
Sirp (on deck)

sorry, gothmog, I indeed forgot about the game as I am playing LK39 atm - that one has become a huge motherf...er.......

Sirp: go ahead!

ok I got it.

I played 6 turns in all, the normal grueling Industrial Age war stuff. I made peace with France early, getting a big discount on Electricity, and getting them to sign a MA against India. No-one else was interested in an alliance against India (or in an MPP for that matter).

I bought RP off France, and it turned out we were the only ones with rubber.....except for one supply of rubber owned by the Celts, but right on the border with us. So, I decided that as soon as the Celts get RP, we'll declare war on them, and sieze the rubber.

I immediately start a mass rifle -> infantry and cannon -> artillery upgrade program. All of a sudden we can attack with virtual impunity! I razed two Indian cities, and captured one. I've built one city in former Indian territory, and have a stack with a settler a little south of Delhi, which should build a city immediately, then we'll be able to artillery-bombard Delhi before attacking and taking it.

Once the Celts got RP, I did indeed declare war on them, and take their rubber city. We're in range of the Celtic capital, but I'm not sure if we want to attack it right now, or if we want to concentrate on India.

Anyhow, the game should be pretty easy now that we have rubber and no-one else does. I was *almost* tempted to automate workers just to speed things up.

Good Luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-1110AD.zip)

*bump*. uhh...what's happening with this game? :)

Sirp,

Gothmog has left for the weekend and won't be back until Sunday. He indicated that we could either wait for him or not. I have considered taking the game recently, but my quals are in a week and I am still trying to finish my proposal... (I should be done sometime tonight...). So, I shoud probably be skipped this round.

So, unless Killer wants to take the game again, I was thinking that we should just let Gothmog take it when he gets back on Sunday. At that point, I should be able to squeeze in 5 turns or so.

JMB

JMB: get your stuff done and let me play ;)


got it!

preturn: yes, war will be tedious and lack suspence now :( I hate industrial times. I'll see just how much damage I can do in ten turns.....

had we decided on conquest or is domination OK?


(1) a lot of Celtic Cav attacks - two of them at thre French border :eek: They kill the exposed 1 HP Infantry - Sirp, did you tell about it and I missed it? It would have been easy to cover with a fresh one! Also, the Indians snag our explorer...

A lot of workers move to both fronts. For one I want to be able to extend our rails into taken territory fast, but also I want to have a bait handy in case valuable troops are exposed. Better lose two workers and get them back when taking the next town than lose 2 1-HP Infantry and the Artillery they guard!

the annoying Celt Cav gets bombarded to 2 HP, then takes out a Cav of ours :mad: Expose two Cav to kill two 1 HP cav of the Celts deep in their territory. Two workers we catch in these attacks are used as bait.

(2) :mad: :aargh: Indian Cavalry attakcs fortified vet Infantry in town and wins :( :mad: A new town claims the coal between india and France for good. I also rush two new settlers to have tehm ready next turn as there are German and Celtic settlers walking around.

As i expected, Avignon is only guarded by Cavalry as it just was taken... corection: it was guarded by Cavalry, I put Infantry in it after liberating it without losses. Lots of Artillery ordred, I don't like giving enemies time to draft and send troops by ship because we lack artillery.....

(3) Another Cavalry kills a fortified vet Infantry!!!!!!! This is not fun - what for do we use modern troops at all????? AI Cav vs Infantry is more effective than ours against Riflemen!

Trying turnaround (the combat calc shows a 30% chance for the Celt Cavs to win a HP against our Infantry, it also shows a 29% for our Cav to win a HP against the Indian Riflemen in a metropolis) I take Delhi. Shocking: three defenders succumb to the second attacker (probability: around 30% depending on promotions), but then one draft RM does 21 HP of damage before he even loses the first HP!!!!! Even winning 15 8the max of the calc) is a 0.5% chance for him!!!!! :eek:

Well, no more Delhi. replace it with the settler I brought next turn. 10 new slaves - will use them as cannon fodder so agnry do i feel.

1:1 probaility seems to mean we lose ten in a row, then win 3, then lose another ten... Cavalry cannot kill 2 HP Riflemen in the open.... that is: 3 Cavlry cannot kill him :(

(4) This time, our Infantry goes down to 1 HP and survives, but who knows what would have happened if there hadn't been artillery in the city taking a HP off the Cav.

With Calcutta down to size 8, lacking barracks and most defenders down to 2 HP I risk attacking with cav. 1 retreat, 1 lost, 1 kill + promotion to elite. Infatry oushing the attack kill another defender and redline a defending Cav, so idecide to expose some more Cav badly. The risk pays off - we take the town and replace it with new Calcutta :D
We also take Bom,bay the hard way - losing a single Cav. The RNG seems to want to make up to me now..... raze it, sow the fields with salt.... feel very biblical ;)

WE need settlers so I rush two in corrupt cities and one in a tiny, low-potential town back home.

Find Centralia lacking barracks - ordered!

More good news: India now lacks saltpeter :D But who the hell is trading Rubber to the Celts??? They have Infantry defending their capital!!!! Or was this an upgrade from the one turn they had Rubber?

(5) WW strikes.
some moves, kill some exposed tropps, claim some land.

(6) I knew it - France declares war on us after making peace with India..... When THIS war is over, the french language will only be spoken in our labour camps :mad: WW skyrockets, I decide to consider a change change to monarchy at the end of turn.....

One thing the fr.... haven't learned: they lose three ships in trying to sink one ironclad of ours :D

Raze Celt town, make ROP with Bizzy to a) get his troops throuhg to France and b) be able to outflank India even better.

Explorers cut 2 of 3 Celt horses. Last will go next turn. Where do all the Celt Cav come from? for each i kill or that dies attacking our towns 2 new show up - I want them gone.

(7) 20% lux does it, we stay in Republic. France signs peace with Germany :mad:.... this game somehow calls for the :mad: smiley......

Guerilla seem to have a defence rating of around 20..... need 4 Cav to get one down by 1 HP since none retreats.....

(8) WW goes up AGAIN!!!!!
bombard the hell ot of some places and kill some Guerillas.

(9) We are a Monarchy now. Where what and when was Kolhapur?
and Lugudunum? Oh, I better keep it, it has Sun Tzus :blush:.....

rest and save tomorrow.....

here I go again on my own..... ;)

(9) continued: rush a settler.

(10) I don't f u c k i n g believe it! 1 Guerilla and 2 Cav attack two fortified vet Infantry and take Onontwhatever next to the French border :eek: :mad: I need more diverse smileys here :evil:
In a kind of turnaround, we kill 1 healthy Guerilla, 1 Rifleman and 1 Cavalry in retaking the city.

SOme troops move and heal, there now is a stack of arty ready to pund WEntremont - if we raze it, Lugudunum should be fine ans Sun Tzus ours for good. Also, we cna move Arty onto mountain in range of Paris - pelase do me a favor and exterminate that vermin :stillmad: ;).

We can close the railnetwork around Karachi and Madras (slaves are in place)

We are at peace with Germany, at war with the rest.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uplaods3/GM1-1210AD.zip

my lesson from these turns: A values amust be doubled when calculating defences :(


seems the uplaod isn't working - next player post your email I'll send you the game! I'll send ti off to gothmog right away if I find the mail addy.....

btw, I am sorry for the slow progress, the thin defences and the lack of artillery should have prompted me to concentrate forces more - I was trying to do too muhc at the same time....... It was tempting to behead both India and the Celts, and it worked fine with India, but the Celts brouhgt out far too many troops for my meager attack froce to seriously harm them. Thus, they lost, but they aren't broken :(

If we take Entremont and replace it with a town of our own, they *should* break though........ SunTzus helped our budget a bit, too :D

Hey guys, I'm back. Got home late last night so didn't get to check the boards. Thanks for picking up the game Killer - I guess the uploads folder still isn't online. You can e-mail me the save: jonah@sisna.com.

Progress looks fine, sometimes you hope to advance on all fronts and that just isn't in the cards.

JMB: Good luck with the quals.

game mailed.

All right, 'I got it'

I have some unpacking and stuff to catch up on at home so I probably wont do more than reorient myself in the game and play a turn or two tonight. Given that JMB has his quals, Killer seems to have a load of SG's and PBEM's, and Sirp played before Killer I might keep it for a bit more time (Wed?) and play 15 or so turns. Please voice any objections to this plan here.

gothmog, if you get very close to finishing after ten turns I'd say wrap it up!

I looked it over last night... turn out the lights the party is over. All our enemies are on the ropes, we have denied them critical resources, we have *8* luxuries. I had been thinking I would go for conquest but with the state of things that would really be pointless. Domination will be the quickest way to end the AI misery. I played one turn and bombed Enteremont down to size 6 before taking that city - the celts are a paper tiger now.

One quick point though, while everyone has played very well in this game and significant contributions were made by all I do notice some lack of focus in the city management. Totally understandable given that this one was over about when we first crippled France, but little things like: cities producing 20 or 40 spt should be building Cav or Arti while cities producing 30 spt produce infantry and prioritizing worker use in concentric rings around our Palace and FP, would have speeded up the endgame and we would have finished at an earlier date. Not a criticism, just commenting on how to win a Domination victory at the earliest possible date. Additional gains could be made by using partial rushes in cities with odd spt values, but this last level of MM would only be fun (for me at least) on a small map and I only do it if the game is in question. I guess we all have our limits in that regard (well maybe not all, I've seen some tight MM).

Anyhow, I'll finish this one up sometime this week (infant son has an ear infection) and post some pictures. The Mounted Warrior is truly the Sipahi of it's time, useable for more than an age.

Also, when the Upload File works again (is it working now?) could you post the file Killer sent you? I like to see the changes between turns...

JMB

No problem JMB here it is:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-1210AD.zip

Also, I read in some other thread that you are going to be away from civ3 for a bit. My plan for GM-2 is to take it slow and start it near the end of the month (I may go away again too) - or maybe an April Fools start just for fun. Assuming you are still interested in a GM-2, any info you would like to disclose?

I agree on the optimal shields thing, although not on the rushing thing :) I was trying to set units like that during my turn. (Well, I had a fairly simple idiom: if the city takes longer to build infantry than cavalry, then build cavalry, if it's the same, then build infantry, most of the time. It works out to the same thing). I also set the 'always build previously built unit' check, so that you could just let the cities run without thinking about it, so I'm not sure what happened exactly.

Anyhow, this game has certainly turned into a massacre. Good play all round.

And yeah, don't rush into GM-2 Gothmog, I think I'd get in big trouble if I signed up for another SG right now :) But, what do you think of a simple Always War on Emperor, on a Pangea? I for one have never played one, and I think it'd be a tough, tough challenge. Harder than a normal Deity game for sure. As Sirian says, AW adds one-and-a-half levels of difficulty, so AWE would be Deity + half a level. What do you think?

-Sirp.

Sirp, I think it would be fun to run an Emperor AW game on a Pangea - I have never tried that either. Then we could try a Diety AW with some ability to take tribute and see which is more difficult (at least for a sample size of one :) ). It may well be that an Emperor AW game is more difficult. I'll post a GM-2 startup thread at the end of the month and see who want to play and what the majority would like to do. I'm now not in a SG at all, I want to use some of my spare time (like blood from a turnip) to play out my solo Diety AW game. I will join one sometime soon if time permits.

About the partial rushing, with the amount of cash we were generating we could have increased military output by allowing a city to build for a turn, then rush something with less than 80 shield cost (like a Granary), then finish the build its self. Or in the case of a large shield city (more than 45spt), rush a worker then anything that will get you to a 1 turn build with the normal city output. These are techniques that will increase military output at the cost of some gold and we had a few thousand at the beginning of my turns.

Here's the final turn report:

Preturn: 8 lux = good. I change some city productions and rush a few military units with our surplus gold. I also pull back from the French border in favor of taking out India quickly and going for enteremont next turn.

IT: Celts capture a worker but leave a Cav to be slaughtered.

1220 AD: I bomb enteremont down to size 4 and go in. It falls without a struggle. I then go for Karachi and Madras without any bombardment.l Karachi falls easilly but I have some bad RNG runs in my Madras attack (5 retreats). It falls anyway. I partial-rush a few more cav.

IT - French Frigate kills an Ironclad. The french also emerge and attack Onnontare with four cav. They get some good RNG luck and kill 2 infantry and an elite cav.

2030 AD: I bombard Bangladore and redline all four of its defenders. It's still size 7 but I go in anyway. India is now just a memory.

IT - Celts call up but wont give all their tech and cities for peace so I send them packing. A bunch of border expansions left from Killer's turns and...

We win by domination. A very respectable score for a Diety win on a standard map.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/gm1_congrats.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/gm1_end.jpg

I went back and played the last turn again. Here is the save at the end of 1230 AD.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1_end.zip

Thanks to everyone for playing with me. You were indeed a worthy group of warmongers!!!
:yeah:

Thanks for setting up the game... :)

I think I will be interested in GM-2. I won't be back until April 1st though (and will probably have several things to catch up on... So put me a bit later in the rotation)

JMB

Thanks for sponsoring the game Gothmog, it was lots of fun. I'm glad I played :)

Whew, I'm down to 'only' two succession games now.

I can't imagine a restricted Deity AW being easier than any type of Emperor AW, Gothmog, but we can always see. Certainly, AWE is going to be gruelling. I look forward to it :)

-Sirp.

Wow, over 8000!

gothmog: this game was what I expected from you: a lot of fun and warmongering :goodjob: Thanx!!!!!

I would be very interested in GM2, but not within the next two weeks ;)

All right, looks like I'll wait a couple of weeks then post a GM-2 thread at the end of March or early April. We'll either do an AW Emperor or a concession AW Diety game. I think an AWE game on a pangea will be very challenging so I am leaning that way, but we'll let it stew a couple weeks and discuss at that time. You all have reserved spots and I have another interested party in the wings.

@JMB: See you have warmongering skills you didn't even know about! How were the quals?

@Sirp: Only two... I remember you saying you weren't going to have time for this one. I guess you had to join Russian Researchers, and your altruism is showing in your training day game.

@Killer: See you in a couple weeks. I am trying to imagine how you could be taking a break from CFC given all of your present SG comitments, ah well can't see it. Enjoy your "time off".

The Fighting Iroquoi Kicked A$$ :saiyan:

Gothmog,

We'll find out tomorrow... (I am not looking forward to them... :)) Thanks for asking,

JMB

Gothmog, if you're not starting up for a few weeks, I might be able to join. I'll have to see. I'd like to play, and it depends heavily on how busy I am at that time. Might depend heavily on whether my TDG gets into some bloodthirsty war, or if we just cruise for a peaceful space victory.

-Sirp.