The idea for this SG is Ancient War - we get to expand in the beginning, then go to an always war/ oscillating war game where we don't have to be at war with everyone all the time, but do have to be at war with at least one opponent at all times, and no Phoney wars (i.e. they must not be too remote)! Note this means war at all times, we must be at war with someone before making peace with anyone. This will make it possible to do pointy stick research, which I think is necessary. Our main object will be to win through conquest or domination as quickly as possible. I am starting this game to enter the ranks of SG's that will have a good chance of losing. So understand that this is _very_ challenging. I have not played this scenario out before and don't even know just how challenging (or possible). Being able to handle a typical Diety game with alacrity is a must.

My choices for the game so far (mostly open to debate): Pangea, average land ratio, average age, standard map size, standard # of opponents, Diety. We will be the Fighting Iroquois :) , at some point a great wizard will arise from our midst to lead us to our destiny! The wizard will give our Horsemen unusual strength and help us to overcome any production deficit we may have. As soon as we produce a MW (or half of known civ's have horseback riding) we will shift into the conquest mode. Such conquest as the world has never seen!

We are not restricted to honorable play, but no massive RoP rape will be tolerated. We are the Fighting Iroquoi, but not the 'taking unfair advantage of the AI' Iroquoi. So you will be asked to use your judgement here.

So, my plan (if I get any interested players) is to start this one tonight and post my first turns in the morning. I will play 20 turns, then everyone will go 10 after that.

Oh, I also want to say that this game will be played with a strict 24 hr. 'I got it' and an only slightly flexible 48 hr. play period. The slightly flexible refers to people who post to request a time extension, no problem there. But I don't want to be left hanging. If the game goes on long enough we may switch to flexible turn length (5-10 turns) to help out.

It's been 24 hours and no takers, well this SG may die an untimely death. But I haven't given up on it yet 'Let hope survive!'.

I generated a game before my commute this morning but haven't played it yet, here is what it looks like.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/FIstart.jpg

I intend to play 20 turns tonight and post either tonight or in the morning.

The commitment would kill me. I have an SG, the tourney, gotm, 7 pbem's and also behind-the-scenes at the tourney to deal with, on top of my _real_ work (that doesn't finish until 7pm)...

I would like to play, but I can not commit to playing 20 turns in a 48 hour period. Maybe if there are few takers it could be postponed for a couple of weeks. I think by then it will have all died down a bit, and I could join.

If not, have fun. It certainly looks like a challenge ;)

No problem anarres, if I don't get any takers - I'll bump it back up in a couple weeks and see what happens. My intent is to have 10 turn rounds, or even less once things start to heat up. I am just going to play 20 to start. I do like to have the 24/48 rule in place though. Otherwise, I feel it's too long between an individual players turns and the flow is lost. In this game especially, flow will be critical.

If you are *very* desperate, I can join. I have won three times on Emperor now (siggy), busy with a cleanup on Deity.

Note: the player posting this has started and lost 4 SGs and 2 NESes.
Note: My Deity Cleanup is where I conquered 2 nations so far. However, my main rival conquered 4, and has 200+ Mech Infantry. But I have the Hoover Dam and Modern Armor.

If I play, I will run max research on Wheel, buy Warrior Code, run min sci on Horseback Riding, upgrade several chariots to MWs.

Erik, I haven't hit desperation yet but if you feel upto playing then you can play! It is just a game after all, and we're in it to have some fun. As I say above, we may lose this one - it's quite a challenge. We shall see...

Your initial plan sounds good. That is more or less what I am planning to do (I was planning to play the first 20 myself) - always flexible though depending on what situation I find myself in.

Gothmog,

Your game sounds like a very interesting challenge. I am sorry to see that you get such few responses.

I can not apply for this game as I lack Deity experience and as I am currently committed with my own SG (I do not have the time to play two SGs), but I wish you good luck for it. Be sure to find me in the lurking crowd! :)

-Physicist

I would like to play, but I rarely play Deity. I prefer Monarch w/o mm, Emperor sometimes with moderate mm. So you know I would need some guidance as I am kinda out of training on that level....

Gothmog,

As I was/am interested in Charis' SG, I am also interested in this one (the start position looks nice...). But, 1) I am not a particularly strong warmonger and 2) I am quite worried about overcommitting myself (I am currently preparing for my PhD qualifying exam, new gf, playing in RBE6...).

So, if enough people are interested (such that this won't be a huge time committment), I'll play.

JMB

Hey all, thanks for the words of encouragement.

Physicist, I've been lurking your game too - it's got style.

Killer, you are more than welcome to play. As it's an ancient war game our cities probably wont get too big and the MM shouldn't be too bad.

JMB, I've lurked in your games too and I am sure you would have no problem with the warmongering aspects. But I understand about not wanting to overcommit. Again, I don't expect this to be too big a time commitment because we hope to end it quickly, hopefully before Industrial times! If it gets intense we'll go to the 5-10 turn players choice. No pressure, play if you want to. Good luck on your qualifier, those were the days...

I've played the first 20 turns and not only is our starting position nice, we have a unique geography well suited to the game and I got my best start as an expansionist ever! I'll be posting the whole deal in the morning, got to get some sleep now.

:thumbsup:

I can hardly wait :D worker grabs, setller hunts :D

A couple of notes before the tale begins, barbarians have been set on Raging. I meant to change this to sedentary but apparently forgot. The world is warm and wet, as suggested by meldor, to help isolate our people. The starting place is non-culturally linked because in my test runs I would always meet the Aztec (also expansionistic), and they were getting lots of my huts. We have a very strange start, I met the first other civ in 3100 BC, maybe the warm wet is doing its work. We may be on an easily defended outcrop of the main landmass, but we don’t know about our northern reaches yet. I am very encouraged by this start. My greatest wish is that we have access to horses.

The year is 4000 BC, all is quiet. Scattered bands of humans dot the landscape. Then, out of nowhere a profit emerges, Hiawatha Tarenyawagon. He has spoken to the lord, and has been given tools to help unite the people. Plans for a great Palace are etched in his mind, rules governing certain rituals consistent with the lords desires, and an understanding of how to make objects suitable for the storage of food and water are within his understanding. His burden is to expand over the landscape, securing a homeland for his people. It is told that in in the future another profit will emerge and describe a plan to spread over the world conquering all who stand in the way. When that task is complete the world will become a paradise, and all will live in abundance and bliss. But that is for another day, here the story of the chosen people begins.

Hiawatha, gathers his people together and tells them that they are heading south into the hills, away from the desert and off of the flood planes. There they will live in caves while they complete the Palace that will be the center of Iroquoi culture. He leaves behind a small group to start building farms along the flood planes. Then they will be tasked to build a road to help bring the food into the hills. Hiawatha says that the hills will help provide a natural defense for their new town (which he calls Salamanca) against barbarians and any others who would try to destroy them. He also sends out a group of young men to scout the surrounding countryside. He tells them that their task is very important and they may learn more from hut dwellers than one might expect. They should try to unite these hut dwellers into the growing Iroquoi nation. Upon completion of the Palace, Hiawatha gathers together his tribal wise men and tells them of a vision he has been given of a round object which can be used to move objects more easily from one place to another. Also, he has seen that this object has something to do with horses, but what he cannot guess. So his wise men study the meaning of this vision with the great ferocity that is the trademark of the Iroquoi people. He then gathers his fastest runners together and starts training them to continue the Iroquoi tradition of scouting. Hiawatha is frugal and allows no food or work to go to waste. In the year 3750 BC, reports come back of a significant bottleneck in the lay of the land. Hiawatha orders his scouts to move through the bottleneck and explore the greater world beyond. In 3550 BC the wisdom of Hiawatha is once again confirmed when his scouts meet a tribe of hut dwellers who are advanced beyond all expectations and are convinced to join the Iroquoi nation! The new town is called Niagra Falls. Salamanca is growing and Hiawatha orders 20% of all production funneled to the increased happiness of his people. In the year 3450 a second group of hut dweller is discovered east of Niagra Falls, when the scouts tell them of the Wisdom of Hiawatha and his visions they decide they too want to join the Iroquoi nation. Hiawatha decrees that they should move out of the hills they formerly inhabited and form a new city along a river in a land where grapes grow in abundance. They are exceedingly happy and form the town of Grand River. A group of scouts have finished training. Hiawatha decides that, although there have been no signs of hostile natives yet, the Iroquoi people need defenders. So a group of strong men begin training with the axe, yet another innovation of the great visionary Hiawatha. The year 3300 is another watershed as two more groups of huts are discovered. One of the tribes is a vicious fighting people who have been waiting for a great leader like Hiawatha to organize them into a fighting unit. Hiawatha decrees that they shall be given axes and sent to Grand River as protectors. The second tribe is wise indeed, and Hiawatha learns knowledge of a code of war. This code includes a wondrous weapon capable of projecting violence a goodly distance, the bow. So Hiawatha modifies the training of his warriors in Salamanca to include the use of this weapon. This should make it possible to defeat any barbarian tribes that might threaten Salamanca. As if in response to his thinking, a scout reports that he is being threatened by such a group of barbarians. Hiawatha appeals to the lord to let his scouts escape unharmed, and the lord answers his prayers. In the year 3100 the scouts report meeting an organized group of people who call themselves the Koreans. They are an exceedingly wise people, with knowledge of bronze and a systematic way of recording information on clay tablets. Hiawatha knows that they will eventually become part of the great Iroquoi nation. They have no knowledge of the Wheel though, and trading knowledge may become a possibility before they are absorbed.

Final advice, I have started a racks in Niagra Falls, feel free to change this if you feel it’s appropriate. Salamanca has a good variety of tiles and should be MMed. Wines should come online in Salamanca soon, and once that spot is mined it will be a great one. It may be best to start a granary in Salamanca once the archer finishes. We already have three cities, and control a bottleneck between us and Korea. Who knows, we might pop another settler. If you do decide to go for another settler directly, remember to change that production to something else before popping any more huts. I constructed a quick dotmap. This is not gospel, feel free to use your own initiative. We do want a semi-dense build. The colors are mostly arbitrary. The purple cities will be powerhouses, the others are rough priority of red,gold,blue. The map should be looked over when we discover the Wheel and possibly adjusted for horses (although I have most of the possible squares in play already).

A screen shot of our empire.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/grid.jpg


a possible dotmap

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/dots.jpg


and the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/gm1_ancientwar_3000bc.zip

double post. :blush:

From the responces so far I will put up a tentative play order.

Gothmog (just played)
Eric Mesoy (up now)
Lt. Killer (on deck)
JMB (if he wants, must confirm interest)
????

I would still like one more player in case JMB needs to be skipped at times.

Note that we are going to 10 turns per player now.

this is unbelievable! I have hardly ever seen such a good deity start, unless I could run over an opponent quickly.

I just typed a 'let me in' post, but I realise that it really isn't feasable :cry:

Oh well, at least I am learning to limit myself ;) :rolleyes:

Have much fun, I will be watching with interest. If anyone drops out I may be able to join at a slightly later date.

anarres, yes this start does look delectable doesn't it? Hard to resist. So far I only have three players (including myself) + one maybe (JMB). Let me know anytime you want in, you were there at the conception afterall.

Killer, I agree totally unbelievable - actually this great start has probably moved effective the difficulty level down to Emperor, but we'll take it. :yeah: I am guessing this is payback for the many times I played as expansionist and got diddley for my efforts. I had given up on them well before PTW came out. But reading some peoples comments in the S&T forum (notably TheNiceOne and Aeston), I decided to give it another go. Glad I did! :lol:
I don't know where everyone is, but I hope they are fighting it out. :groucho:

Gothmog,

Sorry about not confirming earlier... I will play. So, now that we've met the Koreans, after we make a trade (if we can...) we are declaring war right?

JMB

All right JMB, glad to have you on board, and glad you brought this up. I meant to have some discussion on this point before starting anyway.

This game is not oscillating war but ancient war, with the idea being we get some time to expand before having to declare war on anyone. This arose from my AW test runs where I would only have two cities and be at war with 3-4 other civs. I think a few more cities are a must! My first instinct was to put a time limit on expansion - say 2000 AD. But as the pace of games varies so much I decided on a relevant milestone. In this case (quoted from my first post in this thread):
"As soon as we produce a MW (or half of known civ's have horseback riding) we will shift into the conquest mode."
I assume that half of known civs will have horseback riding before we do, but put in the MW production because as an expansionist civ there was some remote chance that we would actually get it first (e.g. researching alphabet and meanwhile getting 5-7 techs from huts). This ruleset will force us into one war before our MW becomes the dominant force of the ancient age. I am hoping to make use of the expansionist trait to get alot more map info and some tech swapping opportunities before we make some lifelong enemies. Otherwise I would have chosen the Romans, or Celts as our civ.

So, what does everyone think of my starting line for conquest? Is it OK? Too soft? Would 2000 BC be better? Should we wait until we have HB ourselves? Other suggestions?

Finally I just want to say that I will be abit flexible on the 'I got it' timescale because we have a couple of european players here.

Edit: I do agree with Erik Mesoy that we should build chariots for upgrade to MW's as an initial strategy.

Looks like an interesting game! I'd love to be able to play, but I've already expressed interest in Sullla's game, and I don't think I have enough time to commit to two.

I'm currently playing a solo always war game on Deity, and though I've almost made it to the industrial age, I think I'm going to lose. It'll be alot less harsh when you can actually trade with some of the enemis some of the time. If I could just do a few trades in my AW game I think I could squeeze out a win, but like it is, I think I'm going to lose...

-Sirp.

Gothmog, Killer has been banned for a week after a disagreement with AoA in OT.

I suggest you email him the save, or maybe just to see if he is still in. I have PM'd his email to you.

Re Sirp: I'm impressed that you even made it to the industrial age in an AW game. I ran a few tests and it was really hard going. I didn't play any "to the bitter end" because I was really just testing the initial phase. Those tests led to having the initial period of expansion. Looking into the future of those tests I did not see how I could possibly do OK in tech. It seemed they would certainly have rifles just as I got Knights. So I chickened out and allowed us to just be at war with one civ at a time. As much for the extortion of tech as for the tech trading. If this one goes well, I would like to try an always war game with the initial expansion period still in place. Or maybe :hmm: , one where you could be at peace with only one civ at a time - as a compromise - before a true AW game.

Re anarres: woah, emotions were running high in that thread. It seems to me that Killer was among the voices of reason there, but this is not a Democracy (nor Anarchy) so ... Thanks for the update, I'll e-mail him the save for sure.

All: Erik still hasn't showed, I'll give him another 8 hours or so. Then I'll move him below JMB in the rotation if he hasn't showed. I'll e-mail killer tonight with an update either way.

I would have got it now, but it happens to be PTW, which you did not mention and I have not got.
Very sorry. :wallbash: <--me
:rolleyes: <--you
:lol: <--spectators

Whoa, Erik no PTW. Sorry to hear that. I guess we're down to three then. Killer's up. I'll e-mail him ASAP.

Edit: wait a second I could have sworn I just saw Lt. Killer M. browsing this forum.

Killer are you here?

Gothmog - Killers ban has been reduced to 3 days, which means he has 2 days left. :)

AFAIK, banned people can browse and send/recieve PM's, but not post, so you should be able to continue via PM or email.

Thanks anarres, I guess it was the 'ghost' of Killer. :)

Gothmog: Well, the map settings I used are small map, four opponents, archipelago, with the condition that I would restart if I was on the same landmass as an opponent. That obviously avoids the enemies-march-into-your-capital loss in 2000BC.

But still, it's a *tough* challenge. You don't get to trade for luxuries or technology. You have to sieze enough land to get a decent number of luxuries and resources; defending that many islands against enemy attack is damn hard.

I'm now two technologies away from the industrial age, but I'm in big trouble: I've had to abandon about 7 cities rather than let them be captured by the AI. The little navy I have is all locked up in port, cause otherwise the AI navies would utterly wipe them out. My coastline is getting bombarded the whole time, and I'm behind on technologies, unsure if I can make up the difference.

I was thinking of an idea for a game that is just one little step below AW:

Our civilization is superior to all others. We demand tribute from them all. With every civilization we meet, we renegotiate peace, and they must give us concessions for it. After 20 turns, we must renegotiate peace and gain more concessions. Anyone who does not pay us for peace (i.e. give us tribute) we will go to war with until they do pay us for peace.

I'd imagine that this would still be tough, and would probably have to be done on an island map, but it would give you a little more hope. I checked in my AW game, and if I could make peace, I could get a couple of crucial techs as tribute.

But, I have made some crucial mistakes in the game. If I had done a couple of things better, I think it could be a win. Maybe it will still be a win. If I don't have access to coal though, I think I'm dead in the water.

As for doing any kind of increased-war game where you have continental rivals, on Deity, it's tough; damn tough.

Sorry to hijack the thread :)

-Sirp.

Sounds good Sirp, although I am not sure at what point our civ will actually become superior. From what I understand of peace renegotiation you have to have more power than you victim. Otherwise they want something from you! But kill a few of their units and they come around. So this would be a interesting sort of OW varient.

No problem on the hijack, let me know if you want to play a few turns! ;)

Gothmog: If you inflict sufficient damage on them, they will start giving you tribute. See for example Charis's 5cc thread in the stories section. The way he got up on tech was by forcing the AI to give concessions for peace all the time. Basically though, it'd be *very* close to Always War, and I tend to doubt it'd be doable on anything but an island map; don't get me wrong, it's still a vicious variant.

I would like to play this game, but I'm saying now that I'm not sure I'll be able to see it through to the end. If you're still happy for me to play with those reservations, then I'm in!

-Sirp.

I read Charis's 5cc thread with interest. A fun game and great read.

Sirp, we would love to have you in this game - especially as we are down to three players. As long as you let me know beforehand by posting I don't mind if you have to drop out.

JMB, I haven't heard from killer (his ban should be over soon) - although I e-mailed him the save yesterday. So, if you have time why don't you take it (10 turns at this phase will go very fast) - then depending on when you get back to us I'll decide on Sirp or killer next. That will become the permanent play order.

Ok, I've got it. I should have it back somethime this afternoon/evening...

JMB

Gothmog: Ok, I'm in then :)

slot me in the roster whereever you feel appropriate

0 - Change NF to warrior. we really need some MP units, especially since Korea is near these cities.

1 - Set Sal to produce granary. Korea has learned the wheel. We will now get it in 4 turns, so I decide not to purchase it.

2 - Not much.

3 - Contact with England (for some reason, she appears to be using warriors to explore... Maybe it is because she is in the middle of so much jungle...)

4 - We get 25 gold from a goody hut. Around the goody hut, there are a bunch of dyes in the jungle. We will want to secure these dyes soon... We learn the secrets of the Wheel and it appears that we have 2 potential sources of horses (although, they will likely take awhile to hook up...).

5 - Alphabet from England for the Wheel and 33 gold. Decide to switch from min sci on HBR to writing (I am sure one of the other AIs will discover HBR before we do... If I could have gotten Masonry off of the Koreans, I would have started Mathematics). Wang Kon is up Masonry on us and England.

6 - Another settler wants to join us! (I have never gotten so many settlers out of huts...) I am sending the settler we got from the goody hut back home mainly because he is way too far out to be anything other than a liability to us where we found him. I think he should probably be sent through the choke and found a city on the opposite side (perhaps the purple dot pointed out by Gothmog earlier...). Our archer takes out a barb warrior threatening our worker outside Sal.

7 through 10 - not much.

The worker outside NF is making a road towards GR and, more specifically, the wines. As near as I can tell, mining the bg tiles around GR does very little as the extra shields are lost to corruption. After GR produces its next worker (and the next leader can choose whether to swap to a temple before the worker completes), I suggest that we begin a temple in GR and whip it after 10 turns (to get the horses online sooner and prevent Korea or england settling aggressively on our borders). The more I think about it, I think we should change the worker in GR to a temple and whip the temple in 3 turns (don't worry about hooking up the horses though as we'll never be able to build many chariots (or MWs) in these corrupt cities.

We might want to do the same thing for NF (changing it from the barracks it is currently constructing...) as it is unlikely that we are going to get more than 1 spt out of there (and more population may help bring in more shields...)

We might want to consider sending one of our scouts in the east (probably the one furthest east) southeast as it seems like we might have hit the top end of our continent (around England).

We can probably MM Sal a bit to get the granary out a bit sooner (without decreasing our growth rate), but make sure that the granary completes before we grow. Also, after we complete the granary, I suggest that we build another worker (or two, to begin mining the bg tiles to the south of Sal) before beginning a settler (we will want to cycle between 3 and 5 or 4 and 6, but not 5 and 7). Once we begin making settlers, Sal will have to be MMed for food 4-4-2 to minimize waste.

As for future city locations, I think we should prioritize the dyes to our N, the horses to our nw, the cow to our sw and the furs to our se. Personally, I think our first settler should take the site SE, SE, SE, E of Sal (across the river from the furs and on the ocean) Personally, I don't think we'll need to worry about not having the furs in range right away because it should be pretty easy for us to whip a temple in said city (or let the cultural push from our capital bring them within our range). We could certainly use the culture...

Once we get Masonry, city walls will be very important in GR and NF.

Our map...

http://www.stanford.edu/~jmb/GM1AW2550BC.jpg

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1BC2550.zip

Sirp, glad to have you onboard. Seeings as I was initially at the end of the rotation, why don't you take the game now?

JMB

ok I got it. Will play pretty soon.

(IT) 2550BC: I change Grand River to a warrior: if the English or Koreans get nasty we want to have a hope of defending ourselves!

(1) 2510BC: England tells us to get out of their territory. Certainly Elizabeth; whatever you say.

(2) 2470BC: ...

(3) 2430BC: Grand River completes warrior. We need some military up here, and before we have time to build a barracks. I set it to build an archer, but will change to spear if Bronze Working comes first.

(4) 2390BC: Ok looks like Korea discovered Mysticism, and traded it to England, so both of them have +Masonry,Mysticism,Bronze Working on us.

I meet a Celtic Warrior. Hi Brennus, how are you doing? We're the friendly Iroquois...well, we're friendly at the moment anyway! Ahhh and we meet India too. Ghandi is friendly, like us. All these guys have the same techs we don't have.

We can get bronze working now, clearing out our treasury, but I think we'll sit on it for now.

(5) 2350BC: Salamanca finishes its granary, I set it to build a settler.

(6) 2310BC: A barbarian warrior shows up south of Salamanca. Change of plans. I set Salmanca to build an archer. The archer in Salamanca is sent out of the city to deal with the barbarian, so he can't disrupt our worker.

(7) 2270BC: Ack! A barbarian horseman appears near Grand River. Umm...just where our settler was 2 turns ago. Warrior from Niagra Falls sent to help out if necessary.

Our archer defeats the barbarian warrior near Salamanca.

Ok, we need defense, and having this much money sitting in the bank is just asking for a threat. I buy Bronze Working off England for 80 gold, and switch Salamanca to build a spearman.

Our scout meets a German warrior. They have iron working and mysticism, but no masonry.

(8) 2230BC: Salamanca builds a spearman. Set to building a settler. Our archer goes south, trying to find where these barbarians breed.

The barbarian horseman near Grand River doesn't just attack like the nice predictable barbarians used to. Instead he approaches slowly, and one of his friends shows up behind him. He's close enough to get our worker now, so I have to move the worker.

We need troops in the area now, not in 30 turns, so I veto the barracks in Niagra Falls in favor of a warrior.

We discover London.

(9) 2190BC: These newfangled barbarians are kinda smart! He advances around our city going for the worker still. Thankfully the other one got killed by the Koreans. We'll have to attack him with our warrior; but he is in forest. Our warrior wins, 2-1.

Our archer near Salamanca sites the barbarian camp in the south.

(10) 2150BC: A barbarian horseman advances on Salamanca. We have to retreat the worker from mining. Not good.

The barbarian encampment we found just popped a horseman. We attack, beating the defending warrior, but leaving the horseman there. Salamanca has just grown to size 7, so it gets a +50% defensive bonus.

These barbarians are beginning to feel like Epic 4 all over again!

I suggest settling one tile south-west of where our settler stands.

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1BC2150.zip)

All right we have horses and our territory is in fact an easilly defended outcrop, even if someone settles on our island/peninsula they will not be able to hold it. Another settler! great. Thats 2 settlers, an advanced tribe, and a tech from huts - :cooool: .

The game is now rolling, I'll grab it and play 10. Killer can jump in whenever he posts.

Good job to JMB and Sirip. :thumbsup:

Looking over the game, we have a huge tech brokering opportunity here and should be able to trade our way into tech parity pretty easily. Whoever takes the game should make sure that they broker techs on turn 0 (2150 BC). We are also getting pretty close to the 2000 BC benchmark and don't have much of a military yet...

If we do get up to tech parity, good techs to research might be Mathematics, Lit, or Polytheism. I'd suggest not going for the GL... Math would probably be my first choice.

JMB

EDIT: Gothmog, I hope you notice the tech brokering opportunity...

The 2000BC benchmark? I thought we were going to declare war when we, or at least half the civs we have contact with, discover hbr. If we have to declare at 2000BC, I'm thinking we're dead in the water! At any rate, defending those cities we got is going to be rather difficult. We'll almost certainly want to build the FP up there when the time comes (if we still hold those cities!)

Oh yeah, I'm starting to report on my Always War on Deity game, check it out in the Stories & Tales section :)

-Sirp.

Sirp,

Looking at the save file, I think 3 of the AI civs already have hbr, so, it won't be long until they all have it... (especially because about half of them have writing, and the other half have horseback riding). I think our situation is definitely looking pretty grim...

JMB

Yes, that's the first thing I noticed. We are now at war with Korea.

OK, we are at war with Korea but we are winning the war if you can believe it. We razed a city of theirs near some iron, and they haven't sent any troops at all towards us. The only thing I can guess is that they are at war with someone else too. Check it out...

Preturn: I check the tech situation. Four civs have HB and three don't have it. Time to go on the offensive! I look at our military situation and it is grim indeed. So I whip an archer in Niagra Falls and MM Grand River to yeild two shields per turn. I also MM Salamanca to commerse + 1 tax man while still giving the settler in 2 turns - and there will be 10 food in the granary when it does produce the settler, it is at size seven now. Now I go to the trading table. First I buy writing from France for 32+6gpt. It turns out that neither Germany nor the Celts know Korea. I'll trade them communication since on Pangea they will all know each other soon enough. Contact + writing to the Celts for HB+37 gold. HB to China for Myst+22 gold. HB+writing to Germany for Iron Working+Masonry. 6 gold per turn for 5 techs + 27 gold, not bad :cool: . Now I call up Korea and renegotiate peace with them. Well, they want us to pay 10+1gpt - not likely. War is declared. We have Iron next to Niagra Falls.

Early turns: Kill lots of barbs, lose one warrior to barbs. Salamanca MM to produce 3+3+4 food and grow every three turns. Move warrior/archer pair towards a Korean city newly founded east of Grand River. Allegheny founded on eastern purple dot, this increases corruption in Grand River :( .

Middle turns: use scout north of Salamanca to lead around barbs up there. I attack and raze Hyangsan (only Korean Iron I can see) killing one defender. Salamanca builds another settler and I realize it was built on more Iron. Sword ordered up - now MMed for max shields without waste. More barbs south of Salamanca.

Late turns: Even more barbs south of Salamanca keeping our archer down there buisy every time he heals. Had to redirect settler losing a couple turns of movement. Finally settlle Cartaragus. One scout on main continent killed by barb horse coming out of the fog. Move settler towards horses. We will want MW sooner than later.

Notes to next player: keep micro managing everything and keep tabs on the lux slider - every round please. We need to squeeze blood from this turnip. There is a barb horse east of Allegheny - rush the archer there if necessary. I've sent our sword thataway too. Actually too bad we're not able to build any warriors in Salamanca - we need MP's there. But you can't have it all and we still have lots of cash. There are some trading opportunities in your preturn - I left that to you. Korea seems to have been a good choice for our first opponent. They have sent nothing our way, amazingly.

Things could deffinitely be worse. Keep a stiff upper lip and all that, eh?

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1BC1750.zip

Edit: No word from killer yet, but I think his ban ends tomorrow. JMB if you post an 'I got it' then you can go before Killer. If Killer posts first then it is his.

0 - Hire a scientist in NF and begin researching Lit at min sci. This allows us to reduce our lux tax by 20%. I don't bother with any deals this turn as we can't really get any 2fers. Mao establishes an embassy in our capital.

1 - Move spear-settler pair NE onto the horses (hopefully the barb warrior on the mountain won't off the pair) as this will be a better site. Move the archer into Catt this turn hoping that this will entice the barbs to go for our worker (we'll have another warrior next turn and will hopefully be able to take care of the threat before they kill our worker. The barb warrior impales himself on arrows. We win without taking a scratch.

2 - Use our archer to take out the horsie threatening out worker. Hopefully the warrior in Catt will be able to hold out against the horsie that could attack this turn. Swordsman takes out a horsie (taking 1 point...)

3 - Reg warrior takes on horsie threatening Catt, winning and promoting. 2 Korean archers are threatening GR. It shouldn't be a problem though as we have 2 spearmen and 1 archer in the city. Barb horsie threatening All, so I move our scout closer in the hope of dissuading him from attacking and instead chasing after our scout. Joanie has discovered Map Making this turn and I try to trade for it (@2nd; mainly because we might lose a chunk of our treasury this turn), but we can't afford it. Hopefully it'll get brokered around this turn and we'll be able to get a 2fer out os it. IBT, one Korean archer attacks across the river and loses.

4 - 2/3 swordsman takes on barb camp in forest, losing...

5 - Archer takes out another horsie. Wow. Huge round on tech trading. Germany now has Math, Philo, Code, and Map Making. WM and 113 gold to China for Code. Code and our WM to India for MM and 4 gold. MM and Code to the Celts for Phil, Math, their TM and 24 gold. We are at tech parity. Our WM to England for their TM and 38 gold. Our WM to Joanie for her TM and 29 gold. Our WM and 71 gold to Biz for his WM. Our WM to China for theirs and 3 gold. Our WM and 10 gold to England for their WM. Our WM and 45 gold to Joanie for her WM. Our new WM to Biz for 29 gold. Ours to Gandhi for 27 gold. Ours to China for 30 gold. Ours to England for 19 gold.

Got to break for the evening (year 1625 BC), I will try to finish this tomorrow night.

JMB

I'm back and ready ro roll.

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]

:D Welcome back Killer :D

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]

All right, looks good JMB. We are keeping up in tech - but the pace is certainly blistering. Pangea tends to do that. I thought about settling on the horses but that sort of makes the Whale to the north hard to access for an additional city. Ah well, it is definitely a trade off. We're going to want to road up the horses ASAP, that means a couple more workers and prioritizing it. The workers near GR and NF are probably better used roading west (I know I had them moving that way). We have an embassy with China now - did you approach him about helping us with Korea? It would be great if more civs could be enticed into war. That would slow the tech pace. Once we put the hurt on Korea we will probably want to start a war with someone else and get some juicy concessions. The AI has a hard time keeping out of a war and a nice world war would really help us.

A big welcome back to Killer! :yeah:
Your on deck...

So the play order has finally been established as:

Gothmog
JMB (playing)
Killer (on deck)
Sirp

We could still use one more to take some of the load off JMB and in case Sirp drops out later.

Originally posted by anarres


:D Welcome back Killer :D




:blush:

thanx, anarres!

Oh another thing, while the scientist in NF is certainly a good move do keep on the look out for opportunities to whip those cities (after the requisite 20 of course). They have lots of corruption but pretty good growth.

Gothmog,

China is already at war with Korea and we haven't needed to do anything yet... I decided to settle on the horses because we don't have enough troops to protect the workers and wage war on Korea (yet... I am working on it.) I plan on whipping a couple of things in the near future in GR, NF and All.

JMB

JMB, we are definitely on the same page. I knew you would be an effective warmonger!

It's great that China is at war with Korea and that certainly explains alot. Thanks Mao! :D

6 - We disperse the barb camp down south.W

7- Not much.

8 - Not much. IBT, Korea wants a straight up peace treaty. I think we want to take a few more cities (Pusan would be nice...), so I decline. We lose a scout to a barb horsie.

9 - Not much. Our spearman in OS defeats a barb horsie.

10 (actually, I am not really sure how many turns I have played, but 1500 BC seems like a good even number to end on...) - England completes the Pyramids. Our reg archer takes out a reg Korean warrior.

Notes for the next leader... Please whip the temple in GR next turn and the one in OS the turn after (cultural border expansion will disperse the barb hut near OS).

Keep Ton producing warriors as we need a lot more MP units (especially for All, NF, and GR; if we get them there shortly, we should be able to reduce the number of specialists we currently need).

The spear/settler pair is heading for the plains along the river to the NE of Sal. I think Sal's next settler should head south and settle on the forest just below our warrior (we should be able to get access to the cow. The warrior is protecting agains new barb huts...). We should whip the barracks in Catt in 7 turns.

Let All produce a worker to help deal with our unhappiness problems in that city, to build a road, and mine the cow (road first so that All will have access to the wines sooner...)

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW1500BC.zip

JMB

Good work JMB - it is really great having a homeland closed off to the AI for expansion, now if we can just get rid of the barbs.

It's all you Killer.

It would also be a good idea to prioritize grabbing some of the dyes soon, before the other AIs do (that way we'll have 3 native luxuries; if we take Pusan, we'll have 4 of them...). I think we still have several turns before they begin colonizing "our land," and I think that the first ones who do should be our next target for war...

We really need to work colonizing the lands around our capital, building more workers, and on building up our core so that we can build troops more quickly, etc.

Good luck Killer...

JMB

got it. Will need the 48h probably.

preturn: I don't like a lot here, but that's the level, not any players fault. Actually, I am positively surprised at how good we look.

(1) The Koreans found Pyongsong slam-damn in the path towards Pusan, they can hook up iron there. I think about changing GR to somehting else, Barracks maybe but decide against it.
The settler goes to the plains tile on the river; this will mean a full 3 tile overlap with Salamanca but otherwise the town needs Aqueduct and overlaps with Allegheny.
There are 4(!) Korean Archers in sight atm, Pyongsong is across a river. Thus, i decide to take as much as possible from Korea and sue for peace.
Surprisingly, we can get Ulsan! As they have only 9 Gold I rather take the city from them. What to do with it is another matter.

I rush a settler in GR to get to the Gems near York, nice river spot there with Gems in 9tiles, England will have to go anyways. We need MWs, and fast!

(2) We can build the FP now - maybe in Allegheny? the new settler goes east with an escort, there's a barb warrior so I send Spear and Archer along. NF rushes a Temple to gain access to bonus grass and help culture fight against Korea. Rush Temple in Oil Springs.

(3) barb Horsie kills Archer :mad:

(4) settler goes south from Sal. English and Japanese warrior are on barb hunt near Grand River. A lot of money from Wm trading - why now? Wm and 30 from Germany, WM and 5 from Chinw, WM and 20 from Brennus, WM and 18 from Korea! Must be the town that changed hands, but why two turns later????

(5) reach the Gem spot just in time, there's an English settler on the mountain next to it. They will now go for the Dyes if i see it right.

(6) 2 British settlers! St. regis founded. A barb Horsie sits on our iron - nothing I can do :( Rush an archer in NF (how i hate to do that!)

(7) Liz wants 35 adnd TM - I tell her to shove it up her ...... and she leaves! the iron is pillaged :mad: Culture expand gets us the hut, madras finishes the Colossus.
I decide NOT to attack the barb Horsie as he is fortified on hill. Knowing my luck he'd surviv both units from NF.
I find more English settlers wandering around and cannot resist - I attack and take the one that is in our lands. Protect the exposed Archer with Spear. I want one more, then we can let them come and give them some money for peace. Cheap slaves that way.

(and now everyone please get in line to beat on Killer. Everyone with one kind of weapon only please, boat paddles to the left, riot sticks to the right, everyone just once please.....)

(8) missed Cat growth, riots. lux up to 30%. Roads needed. barbHorse attacks and dies, now worker from Allegheny can move out and road.

(9) barb attacks NF and dies. Three barbs (incl 1 Horse) come from norht going for Allegheny. Rush Spear there. Centralia founded. hunker down in St. Regis as several Warrior approach. Rush Archer in GR

(10) survive 2 Warriors in St. regis, no loss and Spear promoted. Idiots, didn't they see the river?

settler from Sal starts north for Dyes with Spear. Archer from GR goes to jungle - there's an Englihs settler in there!


the war zone:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1.jpg

the Germans have a awefull lot of troops in England, there's a lot near the northern border where our Scout runs free between Japan and England. Are they going throuhg England to get at us or Korea? Or are all these troops on Barb hunt?

Maybe we could buy Germany into war with England. There have been no English Archers in view yet.

Also, England will found a city in the jungle where indicated. Mave there and threaten it (safe from counterattack for a few round) and sue for peace!

here some the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-1250BC.zip


there is another settler that withdrew towards York, he may try to go south around us - maybe we can catch him!


remember, we have a defenceless city (Ulsan) that may draw troops into passing frontline cities, so do NOT panick too much.


I did NO diplo this turn.

JMB. I agree we need to develop our core and anyone building on our homeland needs to be taught the error of their ways (well maybe one city way up north in the jungle could be tolerated for a bit if we are in an active alliance with that civ). We should prioritize hooking the horses up to our core ASAP.

Killer, you lived up to your alias in this one. St Regis was a stretch - but we are trying to win this one quick! The slaves will be very useful. An alliance with Germany vs. England would be great. As I said we want the whole world at war! not just us. All war all the time :mwaha:

Boy wouldn't a great Leader for a FP rush be great about now?

I think given the quality of the warmongers in this team we can safely do away with the must be at war rule. Charis suggested as much in the RBE thread. Killer showed he knows the ways of the warmonger and I think we can all stick to the spirit of wanting to conquer as quickly as possible without playing by rote.

Sirip take it away!

Ok I got it. Should be able to play sometime over the next 24...

-Sirp.

1250BC (IT): Salamanca switched from spearman to swordsman. It's 5 turns vs 4 turns; at that rate a swordsman is much

more economical.

Bismark wants 130 Gold and World map for Literature. Well, we give him 10 gold up front and 6 gold per turn. That'll be

a little insurance against him attacking us for a while.

Then we trade WM + Literature + 160 Gold to Korea for Currency + WM.

St Regis is a bit of a stretch. A real gambit. I like it! :)

1225BC (1): The English founded Oxford where that settler was.

I don't like the look of this Chinese galley off our coastline.

Workers up near St Regis sent under guard to build a road to gems and also make it easier to launch an attack on the

English.

Archers sent to try to take out this new city of Oxford. The German stack headed west.

1200BC (2): our archer comes into sight of Oxford; it's defended by just a warrior.

MP arrives in Cattaraugus; luxuries cut.

1175BC (3): Oxford auto-razed to the ground. The English now have a warrior moving into our territory, and a spearman

and archer on the way. Our workers have to retreat from building the road as the English are looking a little

threatening. What we need here is a catapult. We're not going to be able to get one anytime soon in the area, so I have

to whip one out of Niagra Falls.

I trade for Poytheism from Germany for 220 gold, and then give it, 50 gold, and 5gpt to China for Construction.

Expensive, yes, hopefully we can make it up by extorting some from our enemies soon. England is already willing to give

us 100 gold for piece, so we always have the option there; we'd have to declare war on someone else to do that of

course.

Akwesasne is founded on the west coast.

Korea has monotheism and feudalism. Yet they don't have their iron hooked up yet. Maybe when our treaty with them

expires we could go to war with them again and get concessions.

1150BC (4): veteran English warrior attacks our regular archer on hills. We win; just. The English have two spearmen on

different tiles right next to St Regis, and have a stack of 2 archers, a warrior, and a settler, a couple of tiles away.

ok now it's my turn to be beaten up. I didn't notice that Salamanca doesn't have a barracks yet, and I just built a

swordsman there. Oh well, he'll still be useful for taking out the barbarians.

1125BC (5): Ok, while everything else is building military, Salamanca is going to build another settler.

1100BC (6): Terrible news! The English attack St Regis across a river and a regular archer takes down our veteran

spearman without taking a hit and promotes! A second regular archer attacks and kills our regular archer. The city just

has one defender left. With those two troops killed, our defenses in the area are looking rather thin. The English will

offer us all their gold (118) and a city for peace, I might consider that option if things get worse.

Troops are diverted to the region.

1075BC (7): The Frenchies complete the Great Lighthouse.

One of the English archers attacks St Regis again, and knocks one out of our spearman before we beat him. The other

English archer retreats to heal. The English spearmen are advancing around our frontlines towards Grand River; one could

attack next turn, and we only have a conscript warrior to defend it.

The English have horsemen! One comes out of the fog and attacks my archer whose in the jungle poking around the English

cities. Our archer loses one, before fighting back, and the horseman retreats. On my turn, I attack the horseman, win,

and our archer promotes.

1050BC (8) The English spearmen head west from Grand River. What's their game? They might be going for our wines. Our

catapult is now working and ready for action! It bombards one of the spearmen.

1025BC (9) The English just built the Great Wall in London! Now, I must admit I'm not quite sure what it does, and I've

heard varying reports. The English spearman moves onto our wine supply. I bombard him down to 2, but we only have a

regular archer to attack with. If he wants to stay there and pillage the wines so be it; we'll kill him after more

bombardment, and we've got nearby workers to reconnect it.

1000BC (10) The English archer retreated to heal. Didn't want to die huh? We go and kill his buddy first, and we'll get

him later. Our archer sites an English warrior-settler pair on the site of Oxford; they want to refound it huh? Our

archer is wounded, not sure what we want to do.

Well that's it from me. Sorry for saddling us with 11 gpt payments. At least we're at near-parity with techs. We really

do need to fill out our subcontinent and start developing economic improvements (marketplaces anyone?) soon!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-1000BC.ZIP)

Wow, nice playing! You were unlucky on the across-river attacks but still held St. Regis and got us tech-near-parity...... :D

very nice!

oh yeah I think I forgot to mention in my report (so much other stuff was going on): The Chinese threatened us, demanding 12 gold pieces and world map. Not very much, but we are the powerful Iroquois! We don't bow to such threats! I told them to go stick it. They did! We are the powerful Iroquois and others cower in our presence.

Oh and yes, what exactly does the Great Wall do? Does it only help cities that have a city walls already, or all cities? I don't like the idea of attacking England while they have that thing :-/

-Sirp.

It helps below size 6 by doubling city wall effects IIRC. So England is pretty much a no-go atm if they have walls.

This ancient war stuff does make every ten turns fun filled doesn't it? Everyone fears the powerful Fighting Iroquois, and rightfully so, we mean buisness. Another great turn of warmongering by Sirp, razing cities is good for morale! :mwaha:

Killer is right on about the Great Wall. It will make advancing on Liz harder though. I'll be looking to get some concessions from them and then take it to the Koreans, we don't want them to hook up Iron. If the Chinese try to settle on our subcontinent :nono: they will be made to pay in blood and money! I would like to get into monarchy and then use a MW to start our Golden Age and build a large MW force - but I'll also be trying to fill in our homeland.

'I got it' and will play tonight.

Edit: the play order.

Gothmog (playing)
JMB (on deck)
Killer (eagerly anticipating)
Sirp

Gothmog,

Don't bother with Monarchy, go for Republic as soon as it is available... T-hawk has done a good analysis on the benefits of Republic over Monarchy and has been able to play an AW game without WW getting too high. I say we give it a shot here too...

JMB

Republic is OK with me, but I still think we should go monarchy, as we will be in dire need of keepong cptured cities from unhappiness. Remember the level!!!!

I can handle the WW - especially in OW. I really just wanted to get into some government before our GA and I am wondering if Republic will have too high a unit cost for us given that we have *no* markets. Counteracting any benefit of the additional commerse.

If you're talking about the last Always War Epic, T-Hawk did that by not being at war for a large portion of the time: he didn't have contact with anyone!

And yeah, we have lots of units, no marketplaces, the support costs might just kill us, can someone do some analysis on this? :)

Also, it'd be nice to get this MW thing going sometime before Chivalry is discovered :)

-Sirp.

Well, some good and some bad. We have definitely missed out on the MW rush but it still may be better to have 2 MW + 10 shields (half a spear) than a Knight, time will tell. The tech pace has slowed at least due to lots of war all over the continent! Here's the report:

Preturn: 4 workers are roading up the iron up by NF, I would rather have them roading the way to the horses as we do have Iron allready connected under Salamanca - but only two turns left so I leave them (this turns out to be a mistake as it means we can no longer build warriors for MP - and we lose a few to the barbs). Mauch Chunk has 10 shields towards a worker but is size one with long time before growth? Must have been disease there or something. NF is about to riot.

Click - England refounds Dover.

Early turns: I allow the archer next to Dover to heal one turn and attack right before a shield arrives. Dover is razed. I kill a barb horse with our regular sword and see a bunch (5) more coming down on us. I whip the racks in Oil Springs (renamed MW Springs). I kill some barb horses and lose a warrior to some as well. Four more appear from the fog (was there an uprising?), this is going to be tough. I see my first english sword and so give them a call. Peace with England for 228 gold + WM + Liverpool (this can be gifted to the Celts if it becomes a problem). I renegotiate Peace with the Koreans, they wont give us Feud so war is declared! I call up China and they give us 143+WM for a MA vs the Koreans. I sell around our new WM for another 35 gold. I still can't afford Feud though. France declares on China, Palace expands, and Germany completes the Great Library.

Middle Turns: Germany calls up and I buy a worker from them for 120 gold. Our now vet barb fighting sword is taken out by a couple of barb horses. The barbs move towards Allegheny and will pillage it soon. I use some gold to get a embassy with Germany and England - London has the Pyramids and the Great Wall, also they are at war with Korea and the Celts (yes!). The Celts declare on the Chinese. Three more barb horses arrive from the fog. The barb SOD attacks Allegheny, kills the warrior there and it is pillaged for production, 2 pop, and 24 gold.

Late turns: China and Germany ally vs. India. Our horses are now connected. I lose a fortified spear to more barb horses but my counterattack kills all visible barbs (finally). IT - three more barb horses appear. Usan grows and I hire a scientist down there - France has the republic but values it higher than Feud - I think its a monopoly. The Celtics have founded a city in the northern Jungle on our subcontinent. I have a settler/spear headed towards the dyes. Hopefully the Celts and our new cities will eliminate the barb problems I had.

I produced a bunch of workers and moved all the ones in our corrupt lands towards our core - alot of land has been improved. Things will start to roll once they do a bit more. This was delayed too long and we are feeling the pinch of it. Monotheism, Feudalism, and the Republic are all out there but the world war presently existing is slowing trades and tech pace. I haven't seen any Knights. Eventually we might be able to buy in on one and broker. We have a good treasury but can't rush anything with it anyway - our power level is top three and that is why I was able to get gold for the MA. I didn't do much on the Korean front as all units were fighting barbs - I do have a mini-SOD moving in Korean lands and I prevented them from hooking up their Iron. We missed our MA rush but I think they will still be useful at 30 shields a pop.

JMB your up - you should oversee our civ finally becoming productive and our first MW. Hopefully I didn't leave you with too much :smoke: .

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-750BC.ZIP

Got it. Will try to post tomorrow night (or Saturday morning. I am also up in RBE6...)

JMB

gothmog: times are touhg, but you got us out still swimming and land is in sight - not :smoke:y at all!

Re JMB - No worries, I saw that you are up in RBE6 (a good read that one). Just post a 'I'm still on it' by saturday night if you haven't finished it yet.

Re Killer - thanks, we're still on target (stay on target, stay on target!) and our geography will really help if times ahead get tougher. We just have to keep the world at war if at all possible.

0 - Gothmog, I don't really notice any weed (hopefully I can avoid :smoke:y moves this turn... I doubt it), but I think we have different priorities... I really think we need to have our core cites concentrating on infrastructure (while producing the odd military unit to allow other cities to build their infrastructure) and getting out cities larger. As Sirian says: "People is power." We should only need one or two of our cities producing military units at a time and should have the rest concentrate on infrastructure. Once those cities complete building a couple of infrastructure buildings, they can switch to military units allowing the other cities to build some infrastructure.

I don't think MW Springs should be making MWs when it is only bringing in 1 spt. Change MWS to a courthouse. Change Catt from a spearman to a MW. Change All from a spearman (who would have been a regular) to a courthouse. Change NF from a spearman to a catapult. Change Mauch Chunk from Barracks to a granary. Change GR to a temple (again... :)). Seeings as the other AIs already have Feudalism (and we are only 2 turns in on single scientist research), I switch to researching Engineering.

1 - We take out two Korean archers. Change Ton from a temple to a granary. IBT, we take out a korean archer in Pyongsong and a barb horse.

2 - Kill another barb horse. Decide to try to take out Pyongsang this turn with a 3/4 archer (otherwise, it will be reinforced with another spear next turn...) We lose 3 straight times. Oh well. Change entertainer in GR to a scientist (didn't notice him before...). Germany and France sign a peace treaty. Korea and China sign a peace treaty.

3 - We take out a Korean spearman with our swordsman. By accident, I allow Sal and NF to fall into disorder.

4 - We take out a Korean archer with our swordsman. We take out a barb horsie, and promote our archer.

5 - Our vet spear in Ty takes on 3 barb horsemen and promotes to elite. Our reg spear secorting our settler almost dies (1 hp) to a barb horse attacking across a river; there is another barb threatening this village. I hope it won't attack as if it does, and we lose, we could lose the city to the Koreans who have a spear settler pair on the hill at the delta. Our first MW almost dies attacking a barb horse in the jungle.

Peace and Monotheism from the Koreans for 10 gpt and 180 gold. Monotheism to China for Feudalism and 1 gold. Monotheism, 4 gpt, and 95 gold to England for the Republic. Decide to revolt this turn as we are religious. Joanie has a warrior settler pair in our territory, so I decide to declare war on her. IBT, Damn! France signs Germany into a military alliance against us. The Celts and China sign a peace treaty.

6 (actually, I have no clue how many turns I have played...) - We become a republic. We kill the french warrior and capture 2 workers.

7 to 10 (?) - Not much.

It is now 570 BC, which is when I think suppose to be my last turn... The Celts and English sign a peace treaty and we take out a barb horse with our vet archer.

If China lands a settler on our lands (NE of Centralia), I think we should declare war on them and net ourselves a few workers. We also have a Korean spear settler pair N of MWS that we should demand leave our territory (if they declare war, we can get a few more workers...) Other AIs we might take on (as Germany and France are rather far away...), are the Celts (we shouldn't attack the English because I made a tech for gpt deal with them...) However, I think we should wait until the Celtic city in our homeland grows to size two so that we don't auto raze the city. Also, seeings as we are currently a Republic, we should definitely try to trigger our GA (and then concentrate on infrastructure and perhaps GL fishing (although I don't think we have any elite offensive units...) to rush our FP.

So, once again, we really need to concentrate on building the infrastructure in our core cities (and letting them grow). We should also try to acquire a few more luxuries (perhaps by building a harbor in one of our more productive cities. Our furs should be online before the end of the next turn...).

Once again, we could still use more workers...

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW570BC.zip

JMB

JMB: I agree with your approach; build lots of infrastructure, while holding off our enemies. Outpower them with a better economy.

Of course, this is the builder's approach. I do think that a legitimate strategy is to concentrate on damaging our enemies through warfare more than improving our own infrastructure, but....I greatly prefer the builder strategy.

Good luck Killer!

-Sirp.

Sirp,

Naturally, I think I am a builder, but even so, I think the best course of action is to build some infrastructure so that we can keep up techwise and on the military front...

Something I forgot to mention... I think we should allow our capital (and the other cities around it) grow as much as possible (and as quickly). If we want more settlers (or workers), peel them off of corrupt cities or those that currently require a specialist to keep them happy.

JMB

I can take it late this evening or tomorrow morning.

Please note, on rechecking the save file, I think a couple of cities will riot if left alone next turn...

JMB

k

preturn: barracks instead of Granary in Centralia - i want enough MW do fened us and have an offensive option, THEN marketplaces (money), THEN other infra. Take two workers off the forest cutting near Cattaraugus, otherwise all but two shields will be lost.

(1) war with Korea (no surprise there).
kill a barb Horse.

(2) bombard Cheju. Slavery has a future with us and we are in our GA. Some people are happy about the war - adjust everyone accodingly.

(3) we kill a barb

(4)

(5) first time we have a MW in the war zons.

(6) England and Korea make peace. MW goes elite on exposed Archer, We earn 25 Gold.

(7) Korean military shows up in force
Some of them die :D (2 Archer 1 Horse).

(8) India and China make peace. Lugudunum inishes SunTzus. have 'big' stack ready to take Cheju.

(9) Hangburg builds the Haming Gardens. We take Cheju at loss of 1 Archer, get a leader(!) and Grand River rushes Barrakcs for 64 Gold - will rush FP next turn.

(10) Korea declares war on China and a horseman of theirs learns that our Spearmen have pointy sticks. He runs away to tell his friends - I will not let him get away....
Shenandoah falls off the scaffloding of the new Forbidden Palace and dies, to honor his memory the workers finish it right away. The grand opening ceremony can take place next turn.


(11) (sorry, wanted to see FP effects) from +50 to +72 Gold each turn!

3 Archers and 1 Horse threaten Grand River, use the Sword to kill 1 Archer, then MWs to kill rest, I placed them for this.... have fun!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1withFPnow.zip

Allll right, our first leader [dance] that should make us a bit more productive! and we're in our Golden Age no less. Sirp, take this one and run with it!

Gothmog (on deck)
JMB
Killer
Sirp (playing)

got it, might have to take the full 48 though; we'll see.

-Sirp.

1 350BC: An added benefit of the FP is that cut corruption means more trade seeps through to being luxuries, allowing us to cut the luxuries rate to 10%!

ok, I do as Killer suggested, but what he didn't know was that that horseman/archer pair was backed up by 3 archers! Oh well, I'll have to leave one of our mounted warriors vulnerable on the hills, hopefully he'll be able to retreat...but, the horseman almost beats him, leaving him in the red, meaning the archers are going to kill him :-/

I switch Niagra Falls from a courthouse to a barracks. It doesn't need a courthouse anymore!

What we really need are workers. Lots of workers. We have 12, we need 24! We don't have dyes or gems hooked up. They could allow us to nix luxuries altogether!

Salamanca is switched to a temple. It's going to be needed to keep our luxuries at 10%. Also, now that our frontlines can produce troops, let's go for infrastructure in our core!

hmm...Cattaragus is almost size 6 and it's building a marketplace when it doesn't have an aqueduct! I change that.

I buy two slaves off Mao at 120 gold a piece.

ok, Allegheny is going to be our last 'frontline' city. Everything west of Allegheny is going to be part of the 'core' and is going to avoid building military units.

luxury rates had to go back up after a couple of turns. We still have to hook up those luxuries!

2 330BC:

3 310 BC: ok a regular archer survives two catapult shots, and then gives us a scare getting our veteran swordsman down to 2, before finally we win the last 3 and kill him!

4 290BC: a German Medieval Infantry lands next to the undefended town of Allegheny. Oops. Hi Bismark, terrible war we're in here, isn't it? How'd you like a peace treaty? Oh you would! And you'd give us 8 gold for it too! Well we would demand engineering too, but...we're being nice today. Thanks have a nice one.

ok, France will also make peace, and give a half-concession: a cheap price on engineering. 300 gold, and 16 gpt. We take it, and then ship engineering and 80 gold to China for Theology.

The French have Education, but they're talking insane prices for it. Other than that and monarchy, we're at tech parity!

5 270BC: Ok this german MDI starts wandering through our territory...The Celts are doing the same!

6 250BC: The town of Pyongsong has survived too long. Time for it to die. Taking an enemy settlement without loss is such a refreshing experience.

But then, get this: They have a regular archer, on a hill. On a hill mind you, but still regular. We bombard him down to red with our catapults. Then we attack with our full strength elite swordsman. Not across river, but he is on a hill. We lose. Lose! To a red archer! Goodness!

Ok Bismark, we know that we signed a peace treaty with you, but you've got this guy, just wandering through our lands. You have a choice. You can get out, or you can declare war. He withdraws. Not as dumb as he looks.

7 230BC: Salamanca has finished its Cathedral, and since it doesn't need any more infrastructure at this time, it's going into Mounted Warrior production mode! This'll let us change to a marketplace in Grand River (Our FP city).

I finally start getting some workers up on the front lines to link our acquired cities. Y'know, it's really good that the Koreans are uncultured, like us. If we were going against the Germans or Celts here, I think we'd be seeing flips galore!

8 210BC: ...

9 190BC: ...

10 170BC: ok we kill an archer and capture a Korean worker near Cheju. I think we're looking in pretty decent shape. Korea and England are certainly two of the weaker civs around, no doubt thanks primarily to our efforts! England looks ripe to be attacked soon. I checked, and York is guarded by just two regular spearmen. (it only cost 14 gold to check).

I suggest pressuring Korea until they will give Engineering as a concession, and then going for England's throat. They only have one source if iron, and it's only a couple of tiles from our borders. London itself will be hard to take with a river, hills, and possession of the Great Wall (which I am still unclear on its exact functionality), but everything else should be easy.

Watch the German MDI near Allegheny; mark him well.

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-170BC.zip)

Sirp: I didn't adjust production after FP buil as I knew you were doing it. I should have mentioned that I didn't - my fault! sorry!

Killer: Hey I wasn't criticizing you, I was just saying what I was doing :)

I think it's fine to leave a whole heap of decisions to the next ruler.

-Sirp.

Oooh, I am looking forward to seeing how we look with a GA and FP under our belt for a number of turns. Not to mention seeing my first MW before the millenium. 'Got it'

On the Great Wall - it doubles the effectiveness of walls. Which means it does nothing for cities above size 6 or without a wall.

Gothmog (playing)
JMB (on deck)
Killer (well done)
Sirp (done well)

not doing anything for a city above 6 is just plain silly imho. Anyhow, I'm not sure England has any walls, so it sounds to me like it won't be much for them!

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Killer: Hey I wasn't criticizing you, I was just saying what I was doing :)

I think it's fine to leave a whole heap of decisions to the next ruler.

-Sirp.

Sirp: leaving them is fine - but I should still have told you!

Sirp - I agree. The Great Wall was much more powerful in civ2.

I went Skiing yesterday and spent the rest of the day making it up to my family so I haven't finished playing yet. I did play a few turns before bed - we look much better and will continue to improve as workers work and infrastructure completes. I pulled a little feint move on the Koreans and used our MW's ( :love: ) to raze Inch'on and grab a bunch of slaves. Another feint has put me in position to attack that city east of the former Korean Iron city. I'll see how that works out tonight. If I take that city I should be able to extort some tasty goodies from Korea and turn our attentions to England.

Originally posted by Gothmog
I pulled a little feint move on the Koreans and used our MW's ( :love: ) to raze Inch'on and grab a bunch of slaves. Another feint has put me in position to attack that city east of the former Korean Iron city. I'll see how that works out tonight. If I take that city I should be able to extort some tasty goodies from Korea and turn our attentions to England.

ah I love units with high mobility.... we Could also land WMs via Galley in the town we got in the last peace, the Koreans 'know' we have no troops there so their guard will be down...

Yes mobility is great - and retreating is very efficient. I've been literally running rings around the Korean archer SOD.

Good plan but as of right now we don't have any Galleys so it would take at least four turns to implement. I think it's about time to do some pointy stick research and oscillate our war efforts. The Koreans own an island off our west coast that is rightfully ours, we will need to build a Galley for that invasion (in say... 20 turns? :lol: ).

gothmog: aggreed on Galleys, but we should keep that in mind fir in 20 turns :D

Gothmog: Once we're in the middle ages, I don't think a stack of archers deserves to be called a 'SOD'. To qualify as a SOD, you have to have *good* units, not just lots of em!

(well ok if they put 30 archers in a stack, then it'd be a SOD :) )

-Sirp.

You are correct Sir Sirp.
This was no SOD except that I only had MW and Cat defending pyongsong on the beginning of my turns. I've killed alot, like 6 archers (plus assorted spears), and there are still 6-8 in the stack wandering around. I almost called it a mini-SOD but I am not all that fond of that term. For want of a better term I used SOD since it really just describes the AI's penchant for stacking its military units. For the Koreans this was a SOD, in real terms it was no SOD.

Wow, I really put the stick to a dead horse in that reply didn't I? :) Can you tell I'm at work and not too focused?

The promised one has come, all is in readiness. The time is later than expected, but when are prophetic visions clear? The horse warriors known as the Fighting Iroquois have been anointed with potions and are ready to spread across the land.

Preturn – Salamanca at 25 spt, so I give up a mined bonus grassland to Cattaraugus. I swap Niagara and Allegheny to pikes, we may need some and soon. I wake and moved a couple Fighting Iroquois to the front. Click…

IT – the Celts and Germans come to peace. Four Korean archers move next to our Pyongsong, which has not even a spear for defense.

150 BC: Catapults do two damage to archer stack. Elite MW attacks – only does one damage but retreats to fight another day; 2nd kill + promote, 3rd - kill, 4th - kill. So there is only one archer left. In the south I move a stack of MW’s covered by two spears into position to attack either the Korean Pyongsong or Inch’on next turn.

IT – In the north a stack of five more archers moves next to Pyongsong. In the south, an archer attacks the stack of MW’s in the south and loses to a spear. A spear actually moves out of Inch’on! :smoke: AI :smoke:

130 BC: I attack Inch’on: 1st – redlines but kills spear + promotes, 2nd – again redlines but kills spear, 3rd kills with two points left. Inch’on razed and we get 4 slaves! I have another MW and use it to attack a spear out in the open – win. In the north I sweep up an archer and spear left alone in the desert. Whoop whoop whoop go the Fighting Iroquois.

IT – an archer attacks the MW that razed Inch’on, the battle hardened MW wins and promotes. Our GA ends and our income is reduced from 75 gpt to 34 gpt. The 5 Korean archers in the north join with two more and move south towards the former Inch’on site. Presumably to protect the Korean Pyongsong and try to recapture the slaves that are trying to get back to Cheju.

110 BC: The Korean spear of retribution arrives out of the desert and makes an elite MW retreat, kills a vet, then finally falls to a third vet.

IT – the Korean archer stack of 7 continues south towards the former Inch’on, they had to go a square offroad luckily. Two archers and a spear attack the Inch’on slave retreat. They redline but promote the covering spear, then kill a MW.

90 BC: I move a stack o’ Fighting Iroquois next to Pusan.

IT – a Korean longbow kills a spear covering the Inch’on slaves (now in our territory on a road) – but a MW remains. The Korean archer stack moves back towards Pusan. It is time for a temporary peace with the Koreans.

70 BC: I attack Pusan. Our catapult misses, MW kills spear, elite MW kills spear. Next defender – longbow. He falls to the Fighting Iroquois and Pusan is ours. I decide to keep this one. Peace with Korea nets us Invention+20g+16gpt+WM, a nice haul. I then trade Invention+21g+WM to India for Education and start min research (Korean scientist) on PP. I rush the ‘racks in St Regis for the war with England that is to come. I decide that we are already at war with England in my mind so there is no reason to tell Liz for a couple more turns.

IT – Dyes online, lux to 20%.

50 BC: I rush a temple in Pusan.

IT – nada

30 BC – I am in position on our English borders. War will commence next turn.

IT – Gems come online and with it a road to York. Lux to 0%.

10 BC – Renegotiate peace with Liz -> War! Capture a worker outside of York. Attack on York, MW kills spear, MW loses to spear and fails to retreat, MW kills spear. York is ours. I attack an archer in the woods outside of York with an elite MW and Cornplanter emerges. Two more workers captured outside of Brighton. MI attacks a fortified archer and redlines before winning, yielding another slave. Thinking we might want to rush the HG, I trade China Invention+30g for Monarchy+2 workers. Later I realize that Germany already built the HG, anyway Leo’s will be great for Knight and Cav upgrades.

IT – Pike on the way to York is attacked by archer, wins but redlines. I notice some Celt horses north of London.

10 AD – I rush Leo’s in Grand River. I kill an English MI with an elite MW. The attack on Brighton commences – MW kills spear, MW redlines spear and retreats, MW kills archer, MW kills redlined spear. Brighton ours. The Celt horses move past London. I notice another Celt spear has been moving south from Burdigala towards Allegheny. What are they upto?

IT – lose an elite MW on a mountain to an archer, another retreats from the jungle where the MI fell. Leo’s completes,

30 AD – I counter attack the archer on the mountain with two catapult shots and a MW, he promotes! I kill two more straggling English archers in the jungle. The Celts now have five horses on the border near York, and the spear in our territory near Allegheny. I buy an embassy and ring up Brennus. A military alliance is formed against England for 18 gpt.

This has been ten turns for me but I decide to go one more to get us back on easy numbers.

IT – the Celts declare war on us anyway. Two of their horses (where are their Gallic Swords I wonder) attack and kill English archers near London. Two attack the MW on the mountain, he kills the first but succumbs to the second. The last one attacks York and redlines the spear defending there (there will be an Pike there next turn). The English finish off the Celtic horse on the mountain. France and China come to peace.

50 AD – Troop shuffle.

Notes: Korea still hasn’t hooked up their Iron south of Wonsan. France has Gunpowder. We can trade Education for Chiv with China and upgrade all our MW’s with a little help from Leo. I’ve been holding off to produce more of our cheap MW’s and because I haven’t even had to attack any Pikes yet. England does have Pikes in London though. The St Regis gambit by Killer has been a godsend, it has been our central command in the England campaign. Acting as both a rallying point and hospital, not to mention the Gems. I think we should just eliminate the English now, should be no problem with the Celts on the job too. Remember that we are at war with them. It might be smart to get the Germans and/or Indians into a war with them to keep the tech pace nice and slow. I guess you could leave the English one city on the Celtic border if they have sufficient tribute to pay (which I doubt). After that we could finish off the Koreans and, I think, go for a conquest victory – Razing most of the rest of the way. As you will see in the screen shot, our economy is doing great as is our treasury, 0% lux, and 0% science will do that.

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-50AD.zip

and a screen shot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-50AD.jpg



Edit: The talley for my rounds...

I killed: 18 archers, 9 spear, 1 longbow, 1 MI, and two horses.

I lost: 5 MW and one spear.

I also captured 8 slaves and bought two more.

Not bad considering I had divine inspiration on my side.

The play order:

Gothmog
JMB (playing)
Killer (on deck)
Sirp

:evil: gothmog, you are one capable warmonger! :goodjob:

Nice turn Gothmog!

I'll try to get to it tonight...

JMB

Gothmog, a 5:1 kill ratio! I certainly don't think I'll be able to match that...

0 - I build an embassy with the Indians (53 gold). I ask Gandhi to aid us with the Celts. He agrees for a mere 14 gpt (I chose India because Gandhi looks stronger than Biz and can, I think, aid us without losing too much of his territory to the Celts). IBT, a 3/5 elite Celtic horseman kills a 3/3 english spear on a mountain and gets a GL! A reg archer in Newcastle attacks our elite MW and dies only doing 1 point.

1 - Our elite MW takes out the 1 hp Celtic horseman. I don't want to let the Celts get their GL home, so I use a vet MW to take him out. I decide to use our 4/5 elite MW against the regular spear in Newcastle. We win, taking 1 point damage, but there is another reg spear in the city. Vet MW against reg spear in Norwich, dies redlining the spearman. Vet archer takes the second reg spearman out. I decide to use out reg spearman to take out the redlined spearman in the city. We lose and promote him. IBT, an English Med inf redlines our MW (who took out the GL) and forces him to retreat.

2 - Whoops, Brighton goes into disorder... Sal is making 23 spt. With our current income, I decide to rush a worker (80 gold) and letting Sal complete the MW in 1 turn. I decide to use our elite MW to kill a 2/3 med inf on the mountain next to York. Grr... We lose and promote the med inf. Vet MW versus reg spear, wins and we liberate Newcastle. IBT, I accept a straight up peace offer from France. An English MI forces one of our MWs to retreat, and Liz lands a reg archer next to Newcastle. Shoot, I forgot to rush the worker in Sal. Switch to a med inf to waste less shields.

3 - ?? Brain fart.

4 - Med Inf against a reg pike in Hastings. Winning with only 1 point taken. Vet MW versus reg pike, retreats only doing one point. Second MW wins with one point left. Third versus reg spear, retreats. Fourth, wins versus 2/3 spear and we capture Hastings and 4 workers. MW in Newcastle takes on a reg archer in the jungle, wins. Elite MW takes on a 2/4 vet MI, winning with 2 hp left and generating a leader Tecumseh. I know exactly what to do with him... :) Vet MW versus 1/3 carthage spear, redlines before killing him. IBT, our 3/4 MI takes out a 4/4 MI, promotes and then dies to a second MI.

5 - Vet MW defeats a vet MI.

6 - Hurry Marketplace in NF for 200 gold.

7 - Gems, our WM, and 320 gold to Joanie for Music Theory. Joanie still has a monopoly on Gunpowder. Our leader rushes Bach's Cathedral in NF.

8 - Vet MW takes on a vet Celtic longbowman, winning. It appears I waited too long on the Education for Chivalry deal with China... IBT, the English want a peace treaty... No thanks.

9 - Vet MW versus vet spear, wins. Vet MW versus reg spear, wins and norwich is ours. IBT, 2 pikemen leave London.

10 - 3 vet MW take out 3 reg Celtic archers. Having seen 2 pikemen leave London last turn, damaging one pikeman in London with our catapults, and having 8 MW right in front of London, I decide to try to take it (even though the position isn't the best...(up a mountain, possibly across a river (can't really tell when you remove the cities from the map... Ctrl-Shift-M)). First, MW retreats, doing 1 point damage. 2nd retreats without doing any damage. The third retreats after doing 1 point. The fourth dies promoting the pikeman. The sixth dies, taking the pikeman down to 1 point and promoting him. The seventh dies against another reg pikeman, and I decide to give up this foolish venture... Even after sending 2 pikemen into the field (I believe I had disconnected her iron a couple of turns ago) Liz has something like 6 pikemen in London! Sorry about prolonging the English war for another 5 or so turns...

With Sal making 23 spt, we can crank out a catapult per turn. I think we should do this for several turns...

St. Regis will be threatened by Celtic units in the next few turns. We don't have very good defensive units there right now, but should be able to handle their attack pretty easily.

Gunpowder has finally been traded around. We should be able to get it for around 1000 gold from Joanie or 1200 from Biz or Wang Kon. I think we should purchase it from Joanie (for gpt would be nice) and try to get chivalry as well (perhaps from China? They aren't doing too well right now...). If we get Chivalry, we can take our wounded MWs to St. Regis (along with some of our other MWs ouside of Hastings) and upgrade them (healing them for free). Three more MWs should be produced by the end of this turn...

If you want, I think the Celts are willing to accept peace straight up, but I don't think we should accept until we have taken the Celtic city in the North of our homeland. Actually, I just remembered that we have an alliance with India, so we shouldn't make peace until that is finished.

Here's the file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1AW250AD.zip

If I hadn't tried pushing things (with London), I would have had a 6:1 kill ratio. My :smoke: brought the ratio down to 3:1. Since we have superior units, this is a pretty poor exchange...

Have fun Killer! Hopefully, I haven't messed things up for you too much...

Gothmog
JMB
Killer (playing)
Sirp (on deck)

JMB

got it

Oh yes, another leader another wonder - we are really starting to roll now. The london attack must have looked tempting, but a fortified pike in a city vs a MW isn't really a great attack. You need two to one troop ratio just to have a shot. The retreat ability has really been saving us alot of troops and giving us great kill ratios, I mean 3:1 is nothing to sneeze at and more than compensates for the Diety production deficit (not to mention the leader again). I like the upgrade and heal for free idea, the MW's have been great but their time is allmost past - any elites could be saved for our next Korean campaign though.

agree on upgrade for vets - we need the higher defence.

preturn: looking around I see the Celts campaign going nowehre righ now - I don't want to take units from the Engish war effort to kill Celts just to take a useless jungle city from them.

Decision time: London has Great Wall, so bombarding ti down won't help at all until we hit the walls - small chance with catapults. It alos has Pyramids - that would be very nice to have atm. Then, Korea would fall next........

Scenario one: we take peace from Liz (she is willing to give us Chivalry and wo workers or Warwick) and take the rep hit from India alliance. Then, we are free to kill of Korea (I still want to use my coastal flanking manouver).

Scenario 2: We take the peace with England and pile an ROP and MA against the Celts into it (Liz is willing!).

2 a) Celts get killed down, we rush through and surond England by taking (refounding) nottingham and Gergovia. This will take the ten turns we have to go. Then, a short korea campaign while we wait for the chance to gobble up lizzy (I would prefer to wait for Cavalry here!

2 b) this is the one I see coming: The Celts hit London hard. If it falls we take it, if not we go around it. No more iron for Liz and in 21 turns we take London.




I decide to go for 2b)!

still preturn: rename Grand River to FP Gradn River - that way the FP will always be easy to find in the F1 list. As we now have ROP with liz, i use the healthy MWs to kill some Brits. Luckily, i use elites - No 1 goes to 1 HP before killing an Mde Inf, Tecumseh goes to two HP, no 3 and 4 lose 1 and 0 HP against D=1 units. Move two Pikes to block Celt Knight from counterattacking our MWs.

(1) Celt Knight kills something (must be English) away from us. End of AI turns London shows a wounded Pike on top - I suspect a three or four Knight attack there!. No more Catapults, I order Knigths all over.

I lose 1 Med Inf taking Burdigala against two Spears. I advance Catapults and Pikemen around the eastern side of London - wee need to kkep a continuos road line covered to avoid useless british Archers to block our fast troops there. All MW go to cities, spend 200 Gold for upgrades.

(2) more upgrades, 320 Gold worth. Troops start for Celtic lands. Bus a settler in Pyongsong as at least one of the border towns will be auto-razed. Kill an exposed Celt Pike.

(3) Pusan deposes!!!

No more mister nice guy - as Korea lacks Horses it is time to kill them soon.
The English take care of another Celt Pikeman. A Celt Med Inf disemabarks next to Burdigala - and meets a MW. the MW retreats doing no damage, and Archer does no damage at all. I love the RNG when it goes inot 'the Ai is getting beat and I want to do somehting about it' mode :mad:

Rush a Spear in Newcasle as it is empty and there is a Celt Galley in view. Now, the RNG behaves as it should - the percentage of HP losses is as it should be. Two retreats, but we kill a pike, 2 spears and a Knight and take Coventry. Catapults reduce a Knight to 1 HP. We have no troops to kill him though.

(4) A Knigth kills himself on our healthy pikeman fortified on a Britsh road. Burdigala falls :mad: we had 3 HP with an attack of 3, three more with an attack of 2 and lost sod all, now the Med Inf takes out the vet Spear :( Well, another MW is on the way. Rush a Temple in Coventry and pile the troops in to heal. Size one it shouldn't flip. Kill one Knight and 1 Longbowman, advance into striking distance of Nottingham (size 3 atm).

(5) An archer(!)counterattacking makes a Knight retreat w/o HP loss.
I start to believe there is a combat bonus for the AIs on higher levels: the two reg Spears in Nottingham (no wall, flat terrain) kill 1 Knight, make two more retrat and leave the winning knights in bad shape :( Kill a hurt Kight and one Longbowman there and one in the open, too.

(6) a two HP Pike in the open kills a vet Knight :mad: :mad: :mad: At öeast Burdigala is no more.

(7) France establishes an embassy. Rush Temple in York to lower flip risk. Kill a Knight and a Longbowman, troops before the walls of Gergovia now. Should fall next run - there#s furs there, too :D We cna then trade them, e.g. to France. because of the Celt Galley I rush a Longbowman in Norwich.

(8) Counterattack are vicious, costing us a Pike and Celts a Lonbow, a Knight and making one Knight retreat with no chance at escape.
The Clets land a knight next to norwich! i knew it :( :mad: I hate the fact that the AI knows the map all the time.
Catapults proove ineffective for both sides this round - neither do our harm Gergiva nor does theirs hurt our Knight who kills a pike and promotes. the second defender is a reg pike who forces one retreat, but then Gergovia is ours. the 1 HP knight is finished off, too.

The Knight next to Norwich wins at two HP :( I do not abandon the town to keep him from healing while he takes it.

I go for Richborough by taking two slaves and positioning them openly for taking, thus distracting two potential counterattackers from our Knights.

(9) the feint partially works: 1 Knight dies (an elite :cry: ), but a Longbowman takes one of the two workers.

our remaining attackers for Richborough kill two Pikes defending wiht one retreat. one guy remaining (I had to kill the LBM to get to the city) I decide not ro push it and go for the exposed Knight that killed our elite instead. A settler is ordered in our capital for the razed cities.

WM and 970 get us gunpowder from india as germany wanted wines and WM and 1297 Gold. Did we break a deal with them ever?????

Chemistry and Astronomy and Banking are around right now, but too expensive. i decide we eill use pointy stick for these from the Celts, then Korea if possible.


looking around i get the sinking feeling in my stomach that WW is about to set in. Lux can onyl come from France - 440 and WM to them for silks.

(10) the feint works again -a Knight grabs the second worker. THis leaves two 4HP knights and a 2 HP one for Richborough.

I knew it! WW is up! 14% now!

Raing Alesia cost us 1 Knight :D Now, the Celts lack a luxury. A Knight landing next to Nottingham is dispatched. Then, an exposed Longbow dies. I retreat from Richborough as I do not want to raze it and there is a healthy Knight behind it that could counterattack.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-350AD.zip

Caution - I did NOT trade at the end of this turn.

Alliance with India runs out this turn.

Suggestion: take Richborough from the Celts and see what else you can get without blocking the Indians, but keep nothing but Gergovia as everything else is too flip-prone.

After the ten turns, end alliance and ROP with Lizzy and take London or better keep ROP and head for Korea. Once the Korean campaign is over, go for London :D


We are a bit weak in tech now, but I would suggest we only care for the path to Cavalry. get that soon and we own about 55% of the land for sure (remember, no horses in Korea until they hook up Manpo), China being an easy target and the west of France being stretched and easy to outlfank. Then, the rather long border with the Celts will allow us to go for them fast. After that, Gandih will find that he is fighting a two-front war. :D

Looks good Killer, I just opened the save and have a couple of comments.

Our only saltpeter source was at Pusan, bastard RNG. We have equal culture with korea and there was no overlap, WTF. Not that we need it too much, we should be on the offensive anyhow. The Koreans have a hooked up source SW of seoul, so we would probably be going against muskets there. It doesn't look like the Celts have any. Also, I looked at our situation with Korea and it says Peace Treaty (14)?!? Does having a city flip reset the peace treaty timer too? :rant: otherwise I would have said get Pusan back ASAP.

Hopefully we can extort some tech from the Celts and trade PP for some more. Then we beeline for MT as Killer says.

Sirp, your up. I'm on deck.

gothmog: I forgot: korea came re-negotiating the peace. no chance but srtaight peace - ****ers!

Teh Celts have saltpeter but I expect the town to fall to the Indians soon, and the source is not hooked up.

It's in the queue...

350AD (IT): We ship gunpowder to China for 65gp + 12gpt + WM.

Between turns, the Celts attack us and kill one of our knights. India wants to sign an alliance against the Celts with us, but only if we give them 12gpt. We don't think so. Ok how about an alliance and you give us 150 gold? You'll do it? Excellent!

360AD (1): ok time to consolidate, we're too spread out, and are getting picked off. Our knights retreat and regroup. I start producing a settler in Hastings. It'll be an English settler, but we'll live with that. We're going to build a city right near the Celt/Indian borders to get that source of Saltpeter!

Now hmm....we have workers chopping down jungle etc up near our FP city while Grand River doesn't have some of its land developed and Niagra Falls is in an even worse situation!

370AD (2): India signs a peace treaty with the Celts. Why thank you for the 150 gold Ghandi.

I start a team of workers trying to get irrigation up to Allegheny and Niagra Falls.

There's a Celtic counter-attack and we trade knights losses, but then kill his second knight on our turn to give us 2-1.

380AD (3): I start transferring workers from our core to our second core. We *really* need to start developing our second core.

I trade Banking from the French for 905 gold + furs. The French are still at least 3 technologies ahead of us.

IBT the Celts attack us again and kill one of our knights.

390AD (4): WW hits :( It wasn't set to "show dialog on civil disorder", so a whole lot of cities go under, and I can do nothing about it.

I end up having to put luxury rates up by 10%. Now we have banking I start to switch core cities over to building banks.

The Frenchies landed a musketeer-settler pair on the northern part of *our* land!

We attack the Celtic knight after bombarding, and.....get a Great Leader, Red Cloud!

400AD (5): Ok I think we want Smith's with our Great Leader. An army is an attractive option, but Smiths will give us a real economic boost. So, I buy economics off India. I thought I'd be able to get a cool 2-for-1 with Astronomy from Korea, but Korea is talking too high a price for Astronomy.

410AD (6): I use our GL to rush Smith's.

Another Celtic knight kills one of ours.

420AD (7): The city of Caughnwhaga is founded on the north end of our continent; just beating the French to the site. We're almost ready to settle our saltpeter city right up near the Celts.

430AD (8): The Celts are now willing to give us Astronomy in exchange for peace. We really want AStronomy *and* Norwich though, which we are close to getting.

Sadly, the AIs have researched Printing Press themselves; just a handful of turns before us :(

440AD (9): The Celts land a knight right next to Niagra Falls, which is defended by a warrior. Thankfully, I haven't left our interior undefended, leaving a few knights around to take care of intrusions like this.

450AD (10): The Koreans declare war on the French. Good news for us I feel. With the Koreans going east, they are ripe for an attack from the west. Still, with mustketman defenders, taking Pu'san back isn't going to be easy.

I've left some knights up near Norwich for the next player to decide what to do with. They can attack the city or they can wait there. I'd much rather get the city off the Celts if possible by peace, but we want Astronomy off them too. Then we have to decide what we want to do next: Keep the war going with the Celts, or turn back to attack England or Korea?

Good Luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/GM1-450AD.zip)

I think if we raze the city that Killer was talking about (with the silks...), we would be able to get both astronomy and Norwich from the Celts. I think we should have enough knights to take that city...

JMB

'I got it'

We are getting alot of nice wonders for a warmongering tribe! I'll be looking to raze the silk city and get Norwich+astronomy if possible, although I'll try not to break any treaties in the process. Fun fun fun.

Yeah we could have razed the silk city, and I did try bombarding it, but it looked well-defended, and I'm not sure I wanted to lose as many knights as I think it'd take to capture the city. Now that's Gothmog's call though :)

-Sirp.

Preturn – India not at war with the Celts anymore? Backstabbers. Looking over the map it’s time to have peace with the Celts, kill England, then take on Korea! I decide to just take Norwich, one Knight does it. It doesn’t autoraze and has an English citizen. I see the French Musket but no settler? I also attack Nuremberg: Elite Knight beats Pike, 2nd Elite Knight wins and we get another Leader! An army will help with the assault on London and Pusan. I also capture two workers outside of Nuremberg. I notice that our peace treaty with England is up. I move all our troops out of her territory so we can declare on them without breaking any treaties. It would be great if the Celts could get another tech to give us for peace, so I hold off on calling Brennus. Click…

IT – Kill Celt Knight attacking Oka. England calls and offers Peace straight up, I decline. We are at War with England. For some reason WW jumps and a couple cities go into disorder. Time for peace w/Celts.

460 AD – Brennus gives us Astronomy+WM+15g+2gpt for peace (doubtful with 3gpt), then I turn down lux to 0% and swap some labor for another 54gpt. Troops move towards England.

IT – Knight retreats from English Longbow.

470 AD – Diplo check, Germans don’t have Nav but have Chem so I buy Nav from India for 600+Furs+WM. Then Chem from Germany for Furs+Wines+Nav+475. France has a monopoly on Physics, France India and Korea have Met. Knight kills English Longbow.

IT – Saltpeter hooked up. Palace expands (x3). London starving now.

480 AD – rush racks in Coventry. Attack on London: Army kills elite pike and promotes. Only regular pike left. Vet Knight retreats from reg Pike, Vet Knight retreats from reg Pike, vet kills pike, vet kills pike, vet dies, MW kills wounded Pike, but there is one redlined pike left.

IT – PP comes in. Min res at Democracy as we want MT ASAP. Palace expands.

490 AD – Army kills pike in London. A spear left, must have been cash rushed. Vet Knight kills him and London is ours + GW + Pyramids! Nice. I move 3 Knights towards Warwick.

500 AD – Attack Warwick: Vet Knight dies, Elite Knight kills spear, vet Knight kills wounded spear. England is gone.

IT – Celts start moving troops north. Palace expands again. French complete Magellins.

510 AD – Diplo check. By Met from France for Dyes+Gems+490g+16gpt (@5th). France has MT too (monopoly). Swap Centralia from cathedral to bank.

IT – Celts continue home.

520 AD – Knights in Pyongsong now.

IT – Celts and France sign a MA vs. Korea, allmost dogpile time!

530 AD – Call up France. They want 85gpt or 70+MA vs Korea for MT (@3rd). I decide we want flexability and since we have 293gpt income I give India 84 gpt for it. I upgrade all but elite Knights to Cav (only 10 gold each, what a deal).

IT – Celts move back towards Korea. France complete Newtons.

540 AD – War with Korea. Attack Pusan: Cav retreats from musket, Cav kills reg musket, Cav kills wounded musket. Pusan ours. There is still one Iroquoi living there too. I trade Celts Met for Silks.

IT – France takes Canturberry from Korea and I see a French Cav.

550 AD – Finger Fart puts a