World = my preferred typical:
Continents - 40%, wet, warm and 5 billion years.
Difficulty = Deity
Barbarians = Roaming - I hate barbs
# Civs = 7
NOT culturally linked, NO restarting players.
Civ = Korea - with a space race victory goal.
I haven't done a Deity space race yet.
LK36 was planned military, and LK38 military was clearly the best with Persia huge tech lead.

Why Korea? There UU sucks, and I just don't see them as a strong military power.
Of course, getting a golden age :rolleyes:

Signed up:
LKendter


10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Mandatory requirements
Play The World Expansion
Deity experience is MANDATORY , and must be proven for unknown players.

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:
RoP Rape - if you have to ask...
RoP Abuse (irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, etc.)
Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave
False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end)
Declaring War to break trade deals including actions like the Demand exploit to force a war, or demanding to leave territory.
False Alliances (ally with several people vs. a civ then peace with that civ), and other actions that completely abuse the AI limited diplomacy ability.
Spy exploit - If you fail to plant a spy, you CAN'T try again. The exploit is: you can infinitely plant a spy until the Civ declares war.
Demand exploit - You may make ONE demand a turn per civ. The exploit is: you can demand to the end of time, and guaranteed to get a civ furious and almost to war.

Don't be so sure. Korea was not a bad civ for our Space Victory on Hot1. We could have dominated but decided mid game to go for space. The military was a factor, we took out 3 civs and could've easily taken 2 more but chose to go for the space victory instead.

Granted, it was on Monarch and we had a few opportune leaders but the "must bomb before attacking the city variant" only slowed down the military machine. Getting our golden age was not a problem on diety that may be another story. It will most likely come from capturing Wonders. Hopefully you won't have to rely on the internet :lol:. I haven't been following Charis Korea game but I image some idea of how Korea stacks up can be found there as well. Good luck!

Hotrod

I'd like to sign up. I need something to keep me out of trouble until MoO3 comes along. Space will be relatively new territory for me, I've only launched one space ship ever, and that was waaaaaay back in LK8 (all my other wins have been military or diplo).

And as for Korea, one could assume they're as good for Space victories as Greece is, maybe better since they aren't throwing away their Golden Age so early. Hopefully we can build one of Magellan's or Smith's and then build Theory of Evolution to get a timely golden age in the middle Industrial, or if we miss out on the medieval commercial wonders (likely) we could still build the UN or the Internet and get one in the early modern era.

Signed up:
LKendter
Carbon_Copy

Hmm, a nice quiet builder game... :)
I'll sign up for this...

Signed up:
LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
NEED 2 more


Hmm, a nice quiet builder game...
Hopefully - though we may need to blast a capital at the end if the AI doesn't go commie ;)

LK, I up for it. I've decided I can play in two SG at a time without overcommitting myself, just some occasional lack of sleep. But we all know sleep is for the weak. This will make a nice contrast to GM1.

Signed up:
LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog

Need JUST 1 more - I may be able to start the game tonight.

With the Menagerie game over, I'm up for another one. :)

Scientific isn't all that useful on Deity; it's pretty rare to do your own research after Pottery until you get Theory of Evolution and jump into the lead. Scientific arguably provides more value from the free tech in each era - we all know the Nationalism Slingshot by now.

As for the Golden Age: obviously either Magellan's or Smith's is required, barring a captured Colossus or Lighthouse. The other half for commercial/scientific can come at the Great Library should we happen to get a leader, or Newton's or ToE.

Signed up:
LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog
T-hawk

Will get this one started tonight.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LAK-259.jpg

4000 BC - Well I can't ask for a better start, especially with the fish in coastal water for 3 food. I start the mandatory pottery.

3450 BC - We are so shield heavy that I have a bit of a bind. I really don't want more troops as we are already over limit. Pottery is due 10 with -1 per turn. I switch to the fish, and pottery in 7 with barracks pre-build in 14. This is going to be tricky timing for max effect.

3300 BC - First contact with aggressive Rome. Since we found another commercial civ, no chance to trade alphabet.

3250 BC - I hate popping deity huts as I almost always get barbs. I just walk right past, as finding another civ is much more valuable then the hut could give.

3050 BC - We start the standard 40 turns on writing. Seoul switches to granary due in just 4 turns.

2800 BC - A barb appears by our worker, so I have to abandon the road in progress. I switch Seoul to warrior being paranoid.
(I) Well that was a waste of paranoia, as Rome kills the barb. Oh well, back to a settler.

2710 BC - I finally contact another civ. It is Egypt and we give them Alphabet for Masonry and $3. I then sell Rome Masonry for Warrior Code and $10. We have tech parity with Rome, and only behind Egypt by burial.


Summary - CC gets to place our first city.

Signed up:
LKendter
Carbon_Copy (currently playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Gothmog
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41-2550BC.zip

Very nice starting location. I assume the fish is in fresh water (for the 3 food)? Love those early brokering oportunities, makes all the difference - much bigger than the hut as you say. The - no barbs from huts - advantage of expansionists is another big one for them. That trait is really growing on me (yes, like a fungus!).

I see this one. Expect it either late tonight or tomorrow, I'm calling it a day at 6:30 and there's no telling when that means I will wake up. I'm just flat out exhausted. :sleep:

Okay, here's the scoop:

My job sucks, my sleep schedule's off, and I'll be out of the house all night. This turn will not be played today. Handing off to me on Thursday nights are the worst for me, Saturdays as a whole are usually right out, so that just leaves Friday evenings after I'm home from work.

Lee, you have some options here. You can skip me now and Arizona Steve can play and I'll go somewhere else in the rotation, or I can play this one tomorrow. I will definitely have the rest and free time to do it tomorrow, I know that 10 turns this early go by quick but I've been a little sleep deprived this week (okay, a LOT sleep deprived) and don't want that to creep into a decision that we'll have to live with for the rest of the game. Your game, your call. I'll see what the situation is when I drop by tomorrow.

LKendter
Carbon_Copy (on deck)
Arizona_Steve (currently playing)
Gothmog
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

OK CC - I've got the game, and will try to get it to you by tomorrow...

(0) 2550BC
Lee hasn't left me a dot map, so I guess it's up to my own judgement as to where the current settler needs to be placed. His current position on top of the furs seems to me to be too much like ICS, so I'm going to move him one square to the North, which will also get the game in the forest into the city boudary after the borders expands.
I leave Seoul on it's settler, it's at size 4 and needing luxuries. We will however need to train a warrior to accompany the him before he heads off to found city number 3.

(1) 2510BC
Seoul grows to size 5, so luxuries are increased to 30% to avoid riots. It's already optimally set up, producing 8 shields per turn and requiring 16 to complete the settler, so no changes there.
There's a barb camp next to one of our warriors, however, we would be attacking across a river, so I move our warrior into position to attack next turn.

(2) 2470BC
I decide against settling the city at the current position in favour of founding one square NW. This will give enough room to found another city on the coast to the East of Seoul and maximize the use of land there.
The barbarian camp is dispersed, giving us 25 gold.
We make contact with an Arabian scout. After checking all our contacts, I trade alphabet to Abu for Ceremonial Burial and 40 gold. Caesar has Iron working, but is lacking Ceremonial Burial. Ceremonial Burial + 105 + 1/turn only brings us to 'doubtful' for Iron Working, so I'll hold off and wait until someone else has the tech and allows us to broker. Either way, I want to set up a gold per turn deal with Rome in the hope that their legionaries don't come our way.
Egypt has Mysticism, and wants 105 + 1/turn for it. I don't trade yet, but keep an eye on the tech trading screens for future turns.
Seoul trains a settler, starts a warrior escort.

(3) 2430BC
P'yongyang founded. All three furs are inside our borders. I start a barracks there, as we're going to need something in the way of military to deter Roman legionaries.
I reduce luxuries to 10%
Arabia and Rome have Mysticism now, but this doesn't seem to have reduced the cost to us. Still, I buy it from Egypt for 95 + 1/turn, seeing as we're unlikely to get any more contacts in the near future to reduce the price any further, and the excess cash lying around opens us up to tribute demands.

(4) 2390BC
I begin roading the furs. Normally I'd clear the forest first, but the happiness boost of getting the furs online sooner overrides the increased efficiency of roading the deforested square. I also raise luxuries to 20% as Seoul has grown to 4.
Arabia has discovered The Wheel,and brokered it to Egypt (Arabia is swimming in cash).
Seoul builds a warrior, starts on settler. MM'd Seoul to get it to 8 shields/turn (3 excess food per turn).

(5) 2350BC
I send the settler and warrior out with a mission to claim the silks to the West of Seoul. This means I have to up the luxuries to 30% to avoid disorder.
No change in the tech situation.

(6) 2310BC
Beat up a nasty barbarian warrior.
Rome still has a monopoly on Iron Working. All three civs have The Wheel now.

(7) 2270BC
Our third city, Wonsan, is built in range of the silks. I put it initially on barracks, knowing that this will probably change once I figure out what it's final function will be.
I buy The Wheel from Rome for Ceremonial Burial, 15 + 3/turn. Hopefully the legionaries will go somewhere else.
We have two horses, both just outside our territory.
Rome founds Pompeii in "our" lands.

(8) 2230BC
Everyone now has iron working.
Seoul pops out another settler, starts a warrior escort.

(9) 2190BC
Luxuries back to 10%.
Our workers bring furs into Seoul.

(10) 2150BC
Another barbarian camp is destroyed.
Seoul goes to size 4, but luxuries remain at 10% due to the furs.
Worker moves with the intention of connecting P'yongpang to the furs, and to Seoul.

It looks like we need to get hold of Iron Working at some point. We have virtually no military and will probably be a target for tribute demands.

In the dot map below, I have marked the two highest priority sites with red dots.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_001.jpg


...and the save... LK41_2150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_2150BC.zip)

OUCH - P'yongyang is a cultural suicide city - Rome placement of Pompeii is bad news - it needs to start a temple to have a chance.

LKendter
Carbon_Copy (currently playing)
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog (on deck)
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Revised dot map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LAK-260.jpg
We can't afford another cultural suicide city. The revised red dot gets us horses, and the four wines. This is the number one priority city, as it is at high risk of the Romans getting it. It probably should have been built before Wonsan.

Cultural suicide? Wouldn't feel that way to me. I once had a city with 5 tiles under the control of world culture leader (India) , it never flipped in ca. 180 turns (gave up), even with just 2 troops as flip suppression and on Deity. You have 2 tiles against the uncultured:hammer: Romans.
Of course, you are the one with about ten boatloads of experience, and I was just very lucky. :rolleyes:
I say just take Pompeii and- oh, right, Deity. :wallbash:

Erik - you must remember the culture scaling factor. The romans *will* outculture us (yes Diety), so the two squares have to be multiplied by that factor. But there is also the distance from capital factor, which I assume is in our favor. I wouldn't call it a cultural suicide city, but a flip there would be devistating so a temple is deffinitely in order. Now we will have to fight Rome for it sooner or later.

LK: No 'I got it' from CC yet. I could play now but will need an OK from you within an hour or so.

CC would be an outright skip at this point, I won't swap to 2 down the list.

I will post a a skip for him tomorrow if no got it.

OK LK, you the man.

Little brother's been tying up the phone lines since the early afternoon working on some school project, this is the first chance I've had to log on "today" (a shame, I've been sitting around doing nothing all evening since I couldn't download the file or even post a got it). If I actually have this game (I'm a little confused by that exchange between you and Gothmog), I can play and post Monday. And considering that this is the first time through the roster, could I just take whatever spot I end up in permanently?

As if things weren't confusing enough here, I saw your post that began with the words "Little brother" and thought I was over in RBD19 for several very confusing seconds... :)

Somebody post a "got it" already! That's why we DO that! "Got it" removes all ambiguity. :rolleyes:

To get it in simple terms:

CC - You got it.

Still not convinced about Lee's proposed positioning of city #4. Yes, it gets the horses and the wines, but it wastes precious low-corruption tiles near the capital.

If we're so concerned about cultural flips (and remember, the Romans built Pompeii AFTER I had founded P'yongyang), I would move Lee's proposed city site 1 square NE (found this one first) then place a second city directly on top of the horses as per my dot-map.

Note that placing the wines city on the coast won't stop Rome from plopping a city one square North of the wines, and grabbing the two upper wines by out-culturing us. The only way to be safe here is to plop our city ON one of the wines.

That was my first thought too Arizona_Steve, but I looked it over and it looks to me like the romans already have a city that is too close to that position (and ours assuming we get to LK's spot first). I have rarely seen the AI build cities that close together. Still your plan about a revised dot map isn't bad - it doesn't look like we have alot of room to exand into and with no aquaduct in Seoul (and two cows + the fish) it can easilly crank out the settlers.

2150 (0) - I concurred that Lee's dot is not the best plan and we could fit two cities safely in the same area, and actually I had come to the same conclusion as Steve did independently with the one NE and a second city on the horse. Rather than ensure we get all the wines, I'll put both cities on the coast, we need at least two cities on the coast, even if that means that an aggressive Roman settlement takes away one of those wines in the long run. And I'm curious by exactly what Lee means by "cultural suicide", if he's referring to actually losing the city to a flip, then I concede that it will be a non-zero possibility (albeit slim considering that our city is going to be closer to our capital than it will be to Rome) until we get three or four troops up there, but if he's talking about ticking off the AI by having an overlapping city placement, I'll refer him back to LK36 where we had several overlapping settlements with a civ as trigger-happy as Persia and were never the target of their aggressions (quite the opposite!), so it's not an automatic thing. Not something to seek out when it's not necessary, but not automatic. I don't change anything in the cities right now.

2110 (1) - The warrior is built and the settling party is sent northeast. Seoul starts another warrior to escort a settler tentatively slated for that spice site southwest (if we can swing it, we'll have three native luxuries, something a lot better than we ended up with for LK36). Wonsan switched from barracks to granary. Realized animations were turned off, turned them back on so I can see what happens in between turns.

2070 (2) - Southern scout pops a hut on a hill, gets barbs (at least he's now on the hill). Luxuries to 20% after Seoul grows to size 5.

2030 (3) - All three of the barbs wander off. Seoul builds a warrior, the extra MP allows lux back to 10%.

1990 (4) - Egypt starts the Oracle.

1950 (5) - Oh no! 1 turn away from being in place to found the city, we see a Roman pair also 1 turn away from where we want to be! 2 Roman warriors also start towards P'yongyang, I'm mildly worried but at this point, but if they want to attack us there's not much I can change to improve our chances...actually, there is. I waste 6 shields (counting next turn's production) and switch from barracks to walls. Seoul to size 6 means I need to raise lux back to 20% again. All the AI civs we know have writing, and are not interested in giving it away right now.

1910 (6) - Whew! The Roman settler pair draws back and the warriors turn north. I decide to gamble and move to the spot I wanted to settle in the first place (seriously tempted to found on Lee's dot but we need space for two cities, I don't want to play half the game below 8 like LK36.

1870 (7) - The Roman settler pair didn't settle, which means Carbon gets his city where he wants it. Pusan founded, starts a worker for both lack of workers and a lack of a better idea for what to build. Settler built in Seoul, which is sent with one of the warriors southwest to claim spices. Seoul starts a spear. Iroquois build the Pyramids in Salamanca. P'yongyang connected to the road net and we have a spare fur online (though nowhere close to any land routes to trade it).

1830 (8) - The Roman settler pair runs around again, retreating from my city and going north. Rome switches to Oracle, Egypt to both the Oracle and the Colossus. Egypt and Arabia have Mathematics, but Rome doesn't. Hopefully it will remain that way for one more turn because we are just barely unable to afford it.

1790 (9) - Rome stays unaware of Math while we get some more cash. I trade 85g + 7 gpt (all of our gpt) to Egypt for Mathematics, then Math + 1g to Rome for Iron Working. We have 9g left and make 0 per turn. And iron is....nowhere in sight! At least there's none near us that I can see. The closest source that is visible to me is on the mountain by Pi-Ramesses. Checking diplomatically with Rome, there's either none under the Roman fog or they just don't have it connected yet.

1750 (10) - Nothing too drastic going on. Seoul finishes a spear, starts settler.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41dotmap1750bc.jpg

Now, for dots:

-The yellow dot is where the current settler is headed to settle

-The red dot is a city we can fill in between Seoul and the yellow dot without overlapping either (though Wonson does overlap it a bit)

-The blue dot is where we should send the next settler we make so we can guarantee horses (the blue dot is right on top of the horses). Between these three dots and the four cities we have now, we will only have seven. We will then need one more city from somewhere to give us a Forbidden Palace.

Now for the rings:

-The Pink ring is that Roman settler pair that has been giving me trouble since turn 5. That they have yet to settle in those last 5 turns brings me comfort, though I'm pretty sure that they'll found where they sit right now. It would be a mild "culture suicide" city by Lee's reckoning but that's in Caesar's hands.

-The green rings are the only two sources of iron that I can see on the map, one by Pi-Ramesses and the other by what I believe to be Thebes.

Save file: LK41-1750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-1750bc.zip)

'Got it' - I'll probably get to play tonight.

No big surprize about the Iron, we just have the one hill and that's in contest with Pompeii. Maybe there's some east or southeast of Wonsan. I just hope Rome doesn't have Iron - Legions are a pain in a defensive war.

Ouch, 85 + 7/turn for Mathematics? Was that buying at monopoly price (was Egypt the only civ we've met that had it?) That's usually not worthwhile for brokering; just my two cents :)

I concurred that Lee's dot is not the best plan
:cringe: It looks like city placement continues to be my number one problem. I am just scared to death of flips, especially when my city building the fp flipped in GOTM#14 that put me out of the game.



LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Nope, I bought Mathematics @3rd, Arabia and Egypt both had it, but Rome didn't, and Egypt gave the better price. I only got it for the 2-fer with Rome for Iron Working (IW only being slightly less expensive), if Rome got it the same turn Arabia and Egypt got it I wouldn't have bothered for the prices Cleo was asking.

Preturn - reduce lux to 10%. We desperately need workers. I can't swap any of our outlying cities without waste so I put Seoul on worker and MM to grow and complete the worker this turn.

Click - roman settler moves north onto the wheat - this puts him at settling distance from Antium IMO, the AI will rarely found cities with their initial 9 squares touching. Egypt builds the Oracle, the Babs cascade to the Colossus.

Early turns - Seoul builds worker -> settler. Ravenya founded on wheat. Build Namp'o on yellow dot -> worker.

Middle turns - Rome settles another city with cultural pressure on Pyongyang :eek: - I swap to temple we want to pressure them! Seoul builds settler starts on another. Pusan worker -> temple. The Arabs establish an embassy with us. Seoul MM to 5 food so it will grow to 6 and produce a settler in 2 turns.

Late turns - Cheju founded on the horses starts 'racks. We discover writing and start on Poly (we can wait 40 for this one, not so for most of the others). Seoul builds settler starts on spear. Seoul expands cultural borders.

Wonsan can now access a grassland but I left it on the forest because it has an odd number of food. Next leader should look at that and whether to leave it on Granary or swap to 'racks. If you want to swap it needs to be this turn or next (or will waste shields). Think about building a 'racks in Seoul too. We have a decent core of cities and need some military now. Note there is a settler/warrior on the red dot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41_1500bc.jpg

The save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41_1500bc.zip

The corrected link is
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-1500bc.zip

===========================

LKendter (on deck)
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog
T-hawk (currently playing)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Got it, will play tomorrow.

About cultural battle at P'yongyang: Getting into any cultural war on Deity is a losing proposition. The AI will rush colosseum and cathedral to keep its city ahead, and that's resources that we can't expend. P'yongyang does need at least one cultural building, so that it controls any tiles that are in both its second ring and in the third ring of the Roman city, but after that, more culture WILL NOT HELP P'yongyang.

I'm thinking we may take the Roman cities pressuring Pyongyang before too long. They haven't built any culure yet (anywhere in their civ when I last checked the culture histogram). It will be tactically useful to control the contested squares between Pyongyang and either of the pressuring cities if it does come to war (war with Rome? do you think? :hmm: )

Sorry about the link mess up LK, thanks for correcting it. I was posting at home just before bed :sleep: and didn't copy the link from the list like I normally do. I use _ in my names but here I just modified the name of the last file.

The AI will rush those buildings to get ahead, but (not quite sure of this) only if they start them. The romans have no priority for culture, and lots of other stuff, so they will wait with starting those.
The AI gets ahead on building stuff on the cheap, not on the thinking.
I'm not quite sure of this (sample size 1) but I did try a strange version of this. Get ahead on Emperor, raze an area, found 2 cities there with small overlap, give the one to the *cividontremember*, build some culture, investigate the enemy city every turn. It was small and corrupt on a large map, so I had the money to do this. Culture buildings did get rushed, but they were started rarely.
I've been so unsure of this, I haven't made it official. This might affect you, do you think there is a chance of this being true?

What patch was that? The AI's priorities were altered in 1.29 to consider cultural conflict when deciding which building to start. I've seen India build ALL FIVE cultural buildings before anything else in a hotly-contested cultural war situation. (That was in TH3, in fact.)

Certainly there is a chance, but a number of other variables must be constrained. For example, does the AI count the 21 square radius for cultural overlap before 1st cultural expansion or just 9 square? Does the AI priority for culture go up in a city with 21 square overlap, or just rush priority? It seems likely to me that they will prioritize culture but not over their internal priorities (e.g. 'racks for a militaristic civ), just over other potential options.

In our case I agree with T-hawk that we don't want to get into any long term culture battle with any Diety civ. That's a big waste of money. I am hoping we can gain a temporary advantage in case of an early war with Rome though. If we do get a temple 1st it gives us a window before they build another cultural building. In any case it will give Pyongyang access to two grassland which it sorely needs.

Edit: I didn't see your post T-hawk before I posted. India doesn't have overriding internal priorities does it? I am not an editor user.

Gothmog: India, as with all civs, does have internal priorities. But as with all civs, they only influence the civ's build choices; they don't lock out or mandate any particular builds.

I'm pretty sure that the AI correctly figures out how many tiles are in dispute, and uses that information to decide whether or not to pursue a cultural war with that city.

Inherited turn:

Got some :smoke: to fix here. Seoul can achieve the magic +5 food/turn threshold, but isn't set to do so. Folks, ya gotta take advantage of such situations to win on Deity.

Second, Pyongyang needs some irrigation BADLY. So does Wonson - why in the world is a worker wasting time chopping a forest there when it could be irrigating and getting the city to grow? PYONGYANG is the one that wants forests chopped - the fur tiles in particular, since the extra shield on a forest is lost to despotism.

I will let Pyongyang's temple finish, since that'll bring the forest-game and two other 2-food tiles within radius. Walls was also a mistake in Pyongyang. Never waste shields on walls until a war actually starts.

Pusan does not need a temple - it's got plenty of food tiles on land, it doesn't need the whales. Changed to granary, since this city will have a lot of food once irrigation gets over to the wines - this city will be a worker factory.

Diplo check: we gain about 80 gold by selling around our world map.

=====

Well, nothing worth reporting happened. Seoul built 5 workers on my turn. These workers need to irrigate thus: through the two furs tiles, through Pyongyang, through Pyongyang's game tile, and into the wines at Pusan. The chop of the second furs forest will make Pyongyang's granary complete before it grows. Wonsan also needs lots of irrigation on its plains. Have this city build a library when that becomes available; expanding borders will net it a second flood plains tile.

Seoul could be swapped to a settler, if we want to try claiming one more patch of jungle. Or it could keep cranking workers - we want at least 18-20 total, even if we don't get any more land.

We are running on cardboard cutouts vs Rome, but if they don't stir up anything I don't think we will for a while. If they do declare war on us, what we'll need is bunches of Catapults to fend off incoming units.

Don't get any ideas about attacking Rome anytime soon. They're larger than us, have a Deity production advantage, and any war will launch them into Golden Age. But, being Rome, they've built next to no workers, and will fall behind in time. But only in time.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-1250bc.zip

Oh right, the patch... Very sorry. And your example from TH3 seems to disprove my idea.
Sorry for the threadjack, I'll stop now, and hide in a corner in shame...

1250 BC (pre-turn) - I hate to waste 2 shields, but Wonsan needs another worker to get growing. I won't deny the need for workers, but I really wish I had a settler heading toward jungle instead. I switch Seoul to settler, but it is probably to late. Namp'o is the best fp choice, so I would really like another city by it.

1125 BC - I purchase CoL from Egypt for $263, and we are closer to Republic. I send CoL, $18, and $1/turn to Arabia and get Horseback riding and wm. We get a wm valued around $150 for just $38.

1100 BC - ARGGGGG - Egypt drops a city in the jungle zone that I was hoping to claim.


Summary - This was a very quite set of turns. Something I like early on with Deity.

LKendter (on deck)
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog
T-hawk (currently playing)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41-1000BC.zip

Hey, you've got the wrong "currently playing" indicator in that roster. Carbon Copy should be up now.

LKendter
Carbon_Copy (currently playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Gothmog
T-hawk

Should be able to play and post tonight.

T-hawk - I did have Soul at 5 food/turn for some of my turn. But when building a settler there is no reason to have it at 5 food when it will be at size six at completion as far as I can see. I guess I should have put it back there the turn after the settler was built but I wanted another defender first (7spt=good).

I decided to chop the tree at Wonsan to get the Dyes online and get the Granary built. Pyongyang indeed needs irrigation and to chop the forest with the furs but I decided to mine the grassland near Chengu first because I would have had to bring the water up from Seoul delaying the only worker I had at the beginning of my turn.

Thank you for the advice and please keep it coming, I just thought I'd state my reasoning.

I'm actually surprized that Rome hasn't declared war on us yet, or at least asked for tribute.

Continuing the discussion...

Seoul is on fresh water, so it can reach size 7. Any food that accumulates in the box after a city reaches 7 is lost when the city shrinks. Therefore, the perfect timing for a settler is to have it complete on the turn the city reaches size 7. Only if the city will reach 7 more than one full turn before completing the settler (or worker) is delaying growth justified.

When I inherited the game, Seoul was size 4 and building a spearman. No excuse for delaying the city's growth there. :)

Chopping the tree at Wonsan was a waste of time, I think. Better to just build the road through the forest to connect the city and get the dyes. Wonsan had an unimproved flood plain within range. Improving a flood plain cuts a city's growth time from 10 turns to 7 turns -- that's about the most efficient use of worker labor there is under despotism. In the early game, population is everything. Get that population up and the shields will follow. Get Wonsan to grow twice in 14 turns instead of 20 turns, and you pick up more than 10 shields from extra population right there.

And if you don't have enough workers at the beginning of your turn - build more! :)

Dope, I make the fresh water mistake alot. Hopefully I will remember that in the future. I would have built more workers but all our cities were currently occupied and I wanted a settler from Seoul. I did start them in our new cities but they didn't finish during my turn. I guess I should have irrigated the FP near Wonsan too, I have a habit of not wanting to move my workers very far without doing something with them. Again, thanks for the well reasoned advice.

1000 (0) - Checking around, Rome doesn't have any more iron than we do (that being none, Caesar is foiled yet again), and furthermore does not yet have any horses connected (though they'll get some at Pompeii and Veii if they bother expanding borders). If it were any other difficulty level, war with Cleo for her iron then Caesar for his land would seal this one for us before the medieval era, but this isn't just any difficulty...

Techwise, the three AIs are all up Map Making, Philosophy, and Construction on us, which means that they are dangerously close to pulling into the next Age. With us just over halfway on our 40 turn polytheism gambit, I have just enough time to buy a tech, then have the payments expire in time to buy Philosophy and start another 40 turns on Republic. The tech to go for will be Map Making. I buy Map Making from Cleo for 11 gpt and 105g (@4th, and she offered marginally better than anybody else).

975 (1) - Nothing much going on.

950 (2) - Nothing much.

925 (3) - P'yongyang finishes barracks, starts a spearman. Real close to the upkeep limit.

900 (4) - Real busy IBT. Arabs complete the Great Lighthouse in Damascus, Egypt completes the Great Wall somewhere, all three AIs begin on the Great Library, Egypt establishes an embassy. Namp'o finishes worker, starts temple, Seoul finishes worker, starts temple. We hit the troop upkeep limit with those two workers, I will disband the two warriors we have stranded before we build any more units. Since a spearman will complete next turn, I disband the one near Buto, the Romans marched two warriors up to Fez IBT and I want to see what happens before I nix the other one.

875 (5) - Abu extorts 20g and a territory map, the Romans declare war on the Arabs, suiciding both of the warriors that I saw approach Fez (which was defended by a spearman). Cleo and Caesar have Currency, but Abu does not. The borders on Fez expand, so rather than move the warrior, I just disband him, too.

850 (6) - Not much.

825 (7) - Not much.

800 (8) - Not much.

775 (9) - Land route established with Rome. Selling our only horse and our spare wine will get us Currency+ (which we can then trade to Abu for the rest of the tech we lack), but I'll leave that option for the next leader. Considering that Rome will be able to get a horse online with Veii's borders expanding, this may be something that we'll want to do.

750 (10) - Well, I messed up. I didn't notice a spot where we could have mostly safely put our settler on the west coast of our continent out of cultural reach of an egyptian city and in cultural battle range with Rome (on the bonus grassland), but I didn't see it until about turn 5 and it turns out I was about three turns too late in getting the settler pair out, there's an Egyptian pair almost there already. Might as well move it back to Namp'o.

We are exactly at the upkeep limit, 28 units (16 of these workers, so if we put 2 MP in all of them we'll have to pay for two of them).

I would suggest that we sell our only horse to Caesar, considering that we won't get another chance to do something like this again as border expansions in his cities will bring his own native horses online probably within the next 5-10 turns if Caesar is smart (which he isn't, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). We can also sell him our spare wine. We can broker Currency to Arabia, so I'd probably go for that from Rome.

9 turns from Polytheism, we will want to go for Republic after that one completes.

Sorry for dropping the ball with that settler :sad: .

Save is here: 750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-750bc.zip)

LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve (currently playing)
Gothmog (on deck)
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Got it, will try to play tonight.

(0) 750BC
P'yongyang would benefit more from a courthouse than a horseman right now, as it's losing 2 gold and 2 shields per turn. I make the switch there.
I also decide that we can do without horses for 20 turns.
Horses go to Rome in exchange for Currency + 20 gold.
Currency goes to Arabia for Literature + Philosophy + 10 gold.
No-one will trade Construction yet.

(1) 730BC
Wonsan reaches size 6. I would like to set it to max shields and get a more usable 8 shields/turn, but instead leave it configured for max growth.
150 gold + 15/turn gets us to "doubtful" on construction.
Seoul builds temple, starts marketplace.

(2) 710BC
Construction can be bought from the Romans, but I will hold off in the hope that no-one discovers Polytheism in the next 7 turns.
Wonsan borders expand. A galley pops out of Cheju, and a harbor is started.

(3) 690BC
P'yongyang hits size 6 and is put on max shields to reach the magic 10 shields/turn.

(4) 670BC
Our galley reaches the coast to the East of Pusan - and spies coastline across the sea that is reachable.
The Republic has been shopped around. I sure hope that Polytheism isn't next.
Arabia and Egypt are annoyed with us - I guess they revolted to Republic and no longer like our despotic regime.
Our warrior/settler pair reach the comparative safety of Namp'o, to be used if cities are razed during a war.
Pusan builds it's granary and starts a temple to get the other two wines inside our borders.

(5) 650BC
Our galley makes it across the sea, only to find that the Romans got there first.
Wonsan builds barracks, starts marketplace.

(6) 630BC
A road is completed between Namp'o and the rest of our empire. We now have a fourth luxury, spices.
P'yongyang builds it's courthouse, starts marketplace. This should be changed to aquaduct once constriction is purchased.

(7) 610BC
I curse my rotten luck, as Egypt and Arabia research Polytheism one turn before we get it.
We learn Polytheism, and switch to 40 turn research on Republic.

(8) 590BC
My only hope here is that Rome doesn't have Polytheism. I check the Foreign Advisor and... he hasn't got it!
Even with Polytheism + wines + 283 gold + 19/turn, I cannot quite afford Republic. However, Polytheism + wines + 220 gold buys the almost-as-extortionately-priced Construction.
This move puts us into the Middle Ages, where we receive Monotheism as our free tech.
For Monotheism I get The Republic + 226 gold from Rome, cleaning out their treasury.
Egypt and Arabia both suffer from poverty right now, so I keep tabs on both of them so that I can clean out their treasuries before Rome can sell Monotheism to them.
We have tech parity with all known civs, and more money.

(9) 570BC
Korea is revolting. Wonsan and Seoul hire taxmen, otherwise everything looks good. We're losing 9 gold/turn, but with 289 gold in the treasury, that won't be a problem.
We draw only 2 turns of anarchy. Woohoo!!
Arabia completes the Great Library in Mecca.

(10) 550BC
Nothing much to report on my last turn.
I switched P'yongyang to an aquaduct so that it can resume growth.

Tech-wise, we are at parity with all known civs. It appears that Rome sold off Monotheism to everyone else at bargain basement prices.
There is a settler in Namp'o waiting to be used if any cities get razed near us.
It's up to the next leader to decide if we continue the quiet build I've been doing, or to try some "pointy stick" research.

...And the save - LK41 - 550BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41-550BC.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_002.jpg

LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

======================

We get Republic earlier then expect with just 2 turns of Anarchy [dance]

Nothing like a good war on distant soil to make Caesar forget to build his temples, I can't believe that none of his borders expanded on your turn (especially at Veii, not only his second city but a native site of horses already roaded up and waiting for borders to expand). When I checked the histogram, we were actually more or less on par with Caesar for culture (and maybe are ahead by now?), unless he's got flip suppressors in Pompeii that he hasn't sent to Arabia, we actually stand a good chance of flipping that city to us. It's closer to Seoul than it is to Rome, 5 tiles versus 7, and we control 5 of its 21 city tiles at the moment, so assuming we are close to cultural parity with Rome, anyone who knows the formula off the top of their head care to calculate our chances?

Hmm...I managed to find the formula in the FAQ thread, and plugging in the numbers and guesstimating what I don't know, it looks like the likelihood is: [(5- # of Garrison units) * 7/5] % We have 5 tiles of Pompeii's under our control, we have never held the city, the ratio of our civ-wide culture is roughly equal and Rome is not in anarchy (so the Cc H and Cte/Cty terms work out to roughly 1), and Pompeii is closer to Seoul than Rome 5 tiles to 7. If I calculated the distance factor right (as just being a ratio of distances between the two capitals in question), then if they have only 2 defenders in Pompeii the flip risk for them is about 4%-5% and they'll need 5 MPs to prevent a flip completely. Once Caesar gets off his butt and builds a temple there, however, we will only control 2 of Pompeii's 21 tiles so he'd only need two units to completely prevent a flip once the borders expand.

'I got it' will try to play tonight.

Yesss, a two turn anarchy.

On the culture flip possibilities - the base chance of a flip is 0.05% per turn. That is to say that the D factor is 2000 times the distance ratio. So the per turn chance is smaller (.2% - .25% per turn). Also, I believe the distances are calculated as the crow flies (for example our distance to Pompeii is (5^2 + 1^2)^0.5 = 5.1), that doesn't make a real difference in this case but just thought I'd mention it.

Preturn - everything looks spotless. I hire a scientist to replace a taxman though.

Early turns: We become a republic and are making 47gpt. MM seoul for growth in 2, market still in 3. The arabs found a city on the island, that makes one for each of our friends, how nice! Egypt starts the Hanging Gardens. Seoul finishes market, starts on 'racks. Swap Hyangsan and Chenju to aquaducts. Sell map around, get 13 gold + TM.

Middle turns: MM Seoul to produce 'racks w/no waste. Seoul starts on spear. Rome and Arabia start on HG.

Late turns: Lux to 10%, Hyang starts on worker. Egypt starts on Sun Tzu - they have a monopoly on Feud. On my last turn the Horse deal with Rome expires, the Palace expands and I sight a reachable bit of land with our Galley! I wake our settler and start him north.

Not much to say, was pretty quiet on my rounds. Here's an image...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41_350bc.jpg

and the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41_350bc.zip

I'm up? Got it, will try to play sometime tomorrow.

Inherited turn:

Let's take a peek at the newly discovered land now rather than waiting 4 turns for our settler to get up there. I load a warrior onto the boat, which will unload on the island next turn.

Nam'po and Hyangsan swapped to libraries. We're scientific, let's use it instead of building the more expensive temples.

Oh, and stop mining the grasslands now. We're in Republic! We need to get those populations up to have any kind of decent economy. Frankly, I have no idea how we're still keeping up even now. We don't even have enough cities to build the Forbidden Palace!

Oh, that's how - Arabia and Rome are at war. Egypt is running away with things, though.

=====

In 190 BC, Rome and Arabia have both acquired Feudalism and Engineering. We pay Abu Wines + 590 gold for the former. Egypt has Chivalry already, as I expected.

The island Gothmog glimpsed turned out to be Rome's already. But there's a second island south of there, that's now ours. That island is actually big enough for two cities; I leave it to the next leader to get another settler over there.

I built a handful of horsemen that are hanging out in Pyongyang. If we can somehow get Chivalry and iron (Egypt has both for sale at exorbitant prices), we can take some war to Rome. 10-12 knights should get us Pompeii, Viroconium, and maybe Cumae. We don't have to do this, though; it's up for group discussion.

Whatever you do, KEEP THOSE POPULATIONS GROWING! Cheju in particular needs lots more irrigation. Pusan doesn't; the wines provide it enough food. Every city should reach at least +5 food surplus; that's growth every 4 turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-150bc.zip

Uh, invalid link.

Don't find the game in the uploads folder.

You're too fast and I'm on a slow dialup :) It's there now.

You're too fast and I'm on a slow dialup It's there now.
That is why I upload first, then post ;)

=======================

150 BC (pre-turn) - I switch Pyongyang to settler to get the other half of the island even though it will waste a bonus grassland. Namp'o is our best fp site, as we could get the most potential new cities around it. The bad news is it all food and no shields (+5 food and just ONE usable shield.) It will need a marketplace before it can get close to size 12. Wonsan switched to cathedral as it is growing to fast for me to put in on military. The city may have to hire a clown as it is.

130 BC (I) - Rome and Arabia sign a peace treaty. The Iroquois complete the Hanging Gardens.

90 BC - I decide to buy Engineering from Rome. It kills the big troop upgrade to knights, but I want to do something with those wines. $725 and wines buys Engineering.
Thanks to border expansion Namp'o is up to two usable shields.
Hyangsan hires a taxman to keep the people happy :crazyeye:

70 BC (I) - Egypt is building Leo's :eek:

30 BC - I want to know what the AI has found, so I buy an updated map from Arabia for $45. No hints for where the remaining civs are :(

10 BC - Rome builds a city on the other half of the island that I was after :(

10 AD - It eats a big chunk of our cash, but we rush the Marketplace in Namp'o to let it keep growing.

30 AD - :confused: We suddenly know Babylon and France? Somebody sold contact with us.
Joan is the cheapest, so I buy the remaining contacts for $135. We can now buy tech at last civ prices. Wahoo, some backwards civs. Engineering to Carthage for Monarchy, $3 and tm. Engineering to the Iroquois for wm and $17.


Summary - Namp'o is getting reasonable for the FP to come on-line. Hopefully with a few more shields we will have the fp soon.

LKendter
Carbon_Copy (currently playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Gothmog
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41-50AD.zip

Watch for it Monday evening

50 (0) - Not much that I can see to do. I do notice that as soon as Rome gets a trade route to those islands they'll get iron, so if we want a war with them before tanks (we'll need war with Rome eventually, IMO), we'll need knights and iron before they get to Astronomy, and we'll probably want to capture Syracuse in any case when we do go for them.

70 (1) - I noticed when I was selling the world map around that Carthage lagged behind the other AIs for Invention. So I shop around to see what the AI prices for Invention are, and the best one is France for 44 gpt and 10g. I go for it. I then trade that to Carthage for Chivalry and their world map since they didn't have any gold. I catch the fact that we're building 20-shield spearmen in 18-shield Seoul. Since that's about the only city that we have not building infrastructure and we need the spearmen, I keep it going, but I change around the tiles so that it maximizes commerce instead of shields (dropping to 17 gross/16 net).

90 (2) - Wow, missed some major :smoke: on the last turn, I didn't even realize that the Iroquois were even with us on tech and that I could trade them the two techs I got last turn for Theology! Most AI civs have gunpowder, none have Education or Printing Press. Wonsan and Seoul reach size 12 on this turn, I start Seoul on a Courthouse since it will need either that or some more mined plains tiles to get to 20 shields per turn, and Wonsan's 12th citizen gets turned into a scientist for some 40-turn research on Printing Press.

110 (3) - Land route established with Egypt (as opposed to the sea routes we have currently).

130 (4) - Despite selling the complete world map to Egypt on each of my last three turns, Cleo demands my territory map and petty cash. Investigating sea currents up north with our empty galley does not yield any other unexplored islands and will probably sink the galley.

150 (5) - Nothing much. Galley sank. I still don't know what to do with the galley with the settler, so I will try to bring it home.

170 (6) - Lone scientist moved from Wonsan to Hyangsan since Wonsan's cathedral completed and it doesn't need the specialist anymore, while Hyangsan just grew to 10 and needs one.

190 (7) - Seoul completes a courthouse, which means that I can now arrange it to make exactly 20 shields per turn. It will produce spearmen every turn for a while.

210 (8) - Egypt completes Sun Tzu's Art of War in Memphis, everyone else starts scrambling through the cascade. It looks like Rome is going to declare on somebody, I see a bunch of horsemen all moving in the same direction through Pompeii to points south and west of here. Checking through the diplo rounds, I see that Rome, Egypt, and France all have Printing Press. Wow. I've never seen AIs beeline for that tech before. I could buy it off of somebody then try to broker it for gunpowder, but I'll hold off for just a little bit. Wonsan just expanded borders again, and unless I'm mistaken none of the Roman cities can take those tiles we just grabbed away from us.

Actually, I'm going to call it two turns early. The wines deal with Arabia is up, and they don't have one spare gold per turn to pay for those (best they can do is WM + 30g) . To buy gunpowder with wine and gpt will cost around 50 gpt plus the wines. I didn't check to see what Caesar's price for Printing Press is, though @4th it's not worth it in and of itself except to broker out for gunpowder. Over my turn I established embassies with Rome and Babylon, Rome is now gracious with us, Arabia is polite, everyone else is cautious.

We've got 685g in the bank, making 58 per turn, and we're currently paying out 44 more to France for that 3-for-1 tech deal with Invention for 12 more turns. It's still quiet for now, though Rome is moving troops (and thankfully it doesn't look to be towards us). Egypt is even more powerful than before with a free barracks in every city. Seoul is making a magic 20 shields per turn, for now I'd have it build spears unless somebody has a better idea. Forbidden Palace in Namp'o is due in 21 turns.

The big question we need to discuss before we do more playing is this: do we want to go after Rome? This is a high risk/high reward proposition, and I think we have a chance at it if we keep it limited. If Rome indeed goes to war with another AI soon this could be the big chance we need to take a bite out of Caesar. If we do it, we will need to capture Syracuse before Rome gets to Astronomy (that city has iron roaded up and a harbor ready, but does not have a trade route with the mainland yet), or Rome would eat us for lunch.

Save file is here: 210 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-210ad.zip)

Well, we can't do anything against Rome without iron. And I guess the only place we can get any is Syracuse island, but then we can't ship it home either unless we get Astronomy ourselves. Plus we'd have to pay ~400 gold to rush the harbor in Syracuse if it doesn't come with the city.

How much does Egypt want for iron - is it any sort of possible to buy it? Too bad they're too far ahead in tech to swing any brokerage deal, trading them a tech for iron...

Actually, we CAN go after Rome without iron. What would anyone else say to having Seoul build LONGBOWS every two turns? 8 longbows should get us Pompeii, and probably about four more for each city beyond that.

Hopefully heading out for a flight shortly (if weather doesn't screw it) so no time to think about Rome in detail.

I know the Longbow rush can work, as I did it once.

======================

LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve (currently playing)
Gothmog (on deck)
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

I thought of longbows too. If we get Gunpowder and have Saltpeter longbows and muskets can be a powerful combination. If Rome declares war on the Arabs or Egyptians then we should definitely join in. Otherwise it will be a judgement call. IMO, if we are going to go after Rome we should take Syracuse even if we aren't going to rush the harbor right away. I haven't seen a map of the new island but I assume that it is quite near Seoul and islands are easy to defend for a human but I'll bet Syracuse isn't well defended.

Got it - will play tonight and investigate the possibility of a musket/longbow rush on Rome.

(0) 210AD
I inherit an empire that is at a crossroads. I feel that we do not possess enough land or cities to be viable right now, however we sit next to the Romans, who right now don't have access to iron in their core cities.
We must strike soon, and hard. To this end I formulate a battle plan.
Firstly, we must obtain Gunpowder and see if we can get Saltpeter.
Assuming that we have saltpeter, we set all cities building longbows, musketmen and horses. If no Saltpeter, then spearmen instead of muskets, with the intent of seizing a Satpeter source and upgrading within a few turns of declaring war with Rome.
Build three or four galleys, fill them with at least four longbows and a couple of muskets (or spearmen) and position them outside the Roman Iron city of Syracuse. This can be done at leisure during the build-up phase.
Make sure a harbor is built in one of our coastal cities.
Build up cash for upgrades.
When Astronomy comes in, attempt to buy it before the Romans can, declare war, and rush Syracuse as quickly as possible with the troops stationed outside to deny Iron to the Romans. I believe the Harbor, being non-cultural, will survive the attack.
Upgrade horsemen to knights. If we have Saltpeter, upgrade remaining spearmen to muskets.
Attack Rome. Pompeii is our prime target.
We already have a sizable force of horsemen in P'yongpang.
We only have one galley. We'll need at least two more.
We also need more troops in Namp'o for flip suppression as three squares are under Egyptian control.

(1) 230AD
Seoul is swapped to longbow production.
Wonsan needs some plains mined to up it's production to something more usable than 13/turn, so I send some workers in that direction.
I notice we can do a two-fer tech deal, so I buy Gunpowder + World Map from Arabia for wines, 35 gold/turn and 280 gold.
I sell Gunpowder to Carthage for Printing Press. No point letting them get it from someone else.
The only two sources of Saltpeter on our continent are both in Egypt's territory. There are only six sources of Saltpeter in the entire map.
I switch research off entirely, switching the lone scientist at Hyangsan to a taxman until the temple is completed next turn.
Hyangsan starts a cathedral - it'll need it to get to size 12.
Ulson riots. Big deal, it's only a 1/1 city. I switch in a taxman, but it'll starve next turn.

(2) 250AD
Hyangsan taxman is sent out sea-fishing.
Chemistry has been passed around on our continent. I hold off in the hope of getting another two-fer deal.
Rome declares war on Arabia. It would be nice to attack them while all their troops are tied up down there.

(3) 260AD
P'yongyang is set to 15 shields/turn to pump out a horsie every two turns (this adds one food for faster growth).
Chedu pushed up to 9 shields/turn to shave a turn of the granary there.
Pusan set to max food.
Hyangsan gets a taxman as it hits size 11.
Egypt declares war on Arabia. Not sure if this was a military alliance with Rome or if it was an independent declaration.

(4) 270AD
Everyone except France has Education, and the Iroquois and Babylon both lack Chemistry.
We do have a problem in that we have no luxuries to trade for Chemistry, so no deal can be made right now.
Lots of stuff completes this turn. I start Chedu on a harbor, after all, once we get our iron we'll want somewhere to bring it in.

(5) 280AD
I face a dilemma here. Our wines deal with Rome expired this turn, and I can trade them back to obtain Chemistry, which can be sold to Babylon or the Iroquois for Education. I decide against this.
So, I buy saltpeter from Egypt for 12/turn.
Sometimes this game sucks. I was hoping to sell the saltpeter on to Arabia after upgrading all my spears and starting new musket builds, but they must have acquired the stuff from elsewhere.
Needless to say, I switch to muskets where possible.

(6) 290AD
The Iroquois complete Sistine Chapel in Grand River. A cascade to Leonardo's Workshop ensues.

(7) 300AD
Our first musketman comes online. Still building up enough cash to upgrade all our spearmen.
Arabia completes Leonardo's Workshop in Basra, there is no cascade.

(8) 310AD
We have 10 upgradable spearmen, and 650 in the bank. I move two spears out of Seoul temporarily and upgrade the remainder (via shift-U).

(9) 320AD
I switch production back to longbows. We have two galleys and a third on the way. These will ship troops over to Syracuse for an attack there.

(10) 330AD
I play another two turns to even out the years.
I thought I saw a legion in Rome, which means they must be buying iron from somewhere.

(11) 340AD
Unfortunately for us Rome is not getting their iron from Egypt. I guess they researched astronomy and got that iron colony online. An attack now is vital.

(12) 350AD
Not much...

I have three galleys containing four longbows and two muskets near Cheju. These are headed towards Syracuse to take out the iron colony there when we declare war on Rome.
We have stacks of horsemen in P'yongpang, but not nearly enough cash to upgrade them all yet.
Egypt may be a worthwhile ally in the war against ROme. Most of Caesar's troops are stuck in Arabia and should get killed off by Egypt. Think about getting a military alliance.
We'll need some muskets in Namp'o.
I think my Saltpeter purchase was :smoke: as I was unable to do my upgrades and trade it forward. - I tried to make the most of it. Iron was way more expensive however.
I recommend buying Education before going to war as this will open up three more techs for tribute demands.

LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)

LK41 - 350AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_350AD.zip)

You can't resell a resource that you're buying. You have to have one of your own.

It's possible to sell the only one that you have, and then to import it again from somewhere else - but you have to have one of your own to get that started.


As for the game - the harbor in Syracuse may or may not survive the attack. There's only one way to find out. :hammer:

I don't know if we needed saltpeter or 10 muskets, but I guess muskets are better than spearmen to defend our longbows. :) Yeah, we need to go after Rome pretty much RIGHT NOW; hope we've got enough troops. (Stupid lousy no-Golden-Age UU we've got, too :P ) If we can get iron (looks like Syracuse is our only chance at that), we can also upgrade the several horsemen that we have.

'got it'

Looks like a critical time for Korea. The attack on Syracuse will tell many things. In this position I would declare war with troops outside of the border, then move in on the same turn. Is that how we play here? The other options of course being, move into position and declare war on Rome's force out (or on our next turn if Cesar is asleep at the wheel), or declare war then move in on our next turn for a fully honorable assault.

Is there a reason to buy Education before going to war rather than waiting until we are at war? If we do destroy the harbor at Syracuse in our assault cash to rush another one could be useful. As Iron could tell the tale.

Once again I will have to make ritual sacrifice to the RNG gods before this crucial battle. To the pet store I go... ;)

You can't resell a resource that you're buying. You have to have one of your own.
Hmm... Didn't know this. I'm surprised that you cannot trade a resource, do your upgrades, then forward it onto someone else on the same turn. I guess I was trying to be too clever there :p

Right now, we don't have enough longbows to take a decent chunk of Rome. Also we will need to trade for Astronomy before we can ship the iron over to our core cities. In that respect, we have a serious shortage of cash, having traded for Gunpowder in my last turn to see if we had Saltpeter.

Edit: Just noticed that I can customize my avatar... [dance] [dance]

Dope, no Education no Astronomy, of course. That will make using our Iron a bit harder.
:rolleyes:

Preturn - looks good, except for one little thing. No catapults, they would be really useful for attacking the size 7 Roman cities - oh well. I start a couple though.

Early turns: got a bunch of gpt back on my first turn. Syracuse is now Arabic, so much for our hopes of Iron. I swap a couple longbows for horses in our Galleys and plan to take Jerusalem and Caesaraugusta. France and Egypt sign a MA vs Arabia. A little scouting shows that Pompeii is defended by only spears, that's good. Syracuse is now Egyptian, I think that's how it will stay. Everything's as ready as it can be.

Middle turns: War with Rome! Egypt wants 400+30gpt for a MA. Not likely, buying Iron would be cheaper. Virionium also defended by only spears. Antium by muskets, I wont be attacking that at size 7. Attack Pompeii, horse kills vet spear, horse retreats from MI, horse kills reg spear, horse redlines and takes out MI. Pompeii is ours. Oh great, muskets in Ravenna too. IT - MI kills musket on hill outside of Ravenna. The babs and Carthage starts Cop Obs. The attack on Virconium: longbow loses to spear, 2nd longbow loses to spear, 3rd redlines but wins, 4th loses to spear, 5th wins, horse loses to spear, damn this is pissing me off - I go with one of the covering musket vs. a redlined spear... and win. Virconium razed, we get 3 workers + a cat. Attack Jerusalem - longbow kills spear, horse dies, 2nd horse beats spear -> autoraze. Attack Ravenna - longbow kills musket (yes!, otherwise I was going to retreat), horse kills spear, horse kills wounded MI. Ravenna ours + a cat. I capture two more workers outside of Antium. IT - roman galley kills one of ours, a spear moves inside our borders and I see a spear/settler pair near razed virconium site.

Late turns: Iroquoi war with Babs. Virconium refounded as Caesarea. Our galley kills a roman one. I see a knight and legion moving in Egypt (RoP). Caesarea razed. Pick off spear and MI. Attack longbow with horse, lose horse. Finish with musket. Attack Caesaraugusta (on island), elite longbow kills spear and we get a leader! I send Yi Song Gye home to Seoul to await economics or music theory. Horse retreats. 1st squable with legion leads to a retreating horse. Musket loses to Knight, but I get him in a counter with a horse. Longbow loses to legion, 2nd wins. Auto raze Caesaraugusta. Rome will talk now, so first I get education from France for 620+WM. Then I get Banking+Astronomy+WM from Rome for Peace+42gpt(insurance)+5g. I call up the Babs and trade Banking+150g+8gpt+WM for Chemistry. I sell around the WM for a couple more gold. Everyone is up Met on us. Iroquoi declare on Arabs. Troop shuffle.

Well, the war went OK - but we still lack Iron. We grew some, but are still small. I am building Banks everywhere and have a settler on the former Jerusalem island in a spot suited for founding if we just want one city there. Otherwise move him.

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_450AD.zip

Good luck...

Screen shot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_450AD.jpg

Got it, will play tonight and post tomorrow.

War is going well, yes. :goodjob: Thing is, are we getting anything of usefulness, or just more land? Although land is good. :)

I might consider making an army with that leader, to use in combat - 12 hitpoints of longbows would be a great help in rooting out those fortified muskets.

I might consider making an army with that leader, to use in combat - 12 hitpoints of longbows would be a great help in rooting out those fortified muskets.

Hmm, why would we need 12 hps of longbows? Unless you're interested in fighting against Egypt or Arabia, we're stuck at peace for 20 turns with Rome and only one tech away form Smith's and/or Bach's. And we got techs in the peace deal, so we can't duck out of it early or we face the wrath of the phony peace treaty exploit. We might as well sit on this for 20 turns, build some more horses, and buy saltpeter again for upgrade to cavalry if we're interested in more of Rome than we already have (are we?).

That's a bummer about Syracuse, and it just means that Egypt gets yet another iron resource when they already had three.

Oh, I didn't see we made peace with Rome. :crazyeye: Thanks for pointing it out :)

I'm of the opinion that Egypt needs to be knocked around a bit before they become unstoppable. :D

Yeah, Egypt is starting to worry me, and if we want to make full use of our FP site we'll have to go after her at some point (BTW, who wants to lay bets that Pi-Ramesses is an Ironworks city? We know it has iron, and Cleo built it in the middle of the jungle), but I don't know if there's anything we can do about Miss Cleo until Tanks (maybe at Cavalry if she doesn't already have Nationalism). If we build enough tanks and we can give her the same business that we gave Xerxes in LK36 (though obviously not as well since normal tanks don't have the 3rd move of Panzers). If we use the Leader for Smith's and build ToE later, that's a Golden Age that we can take advantage of at a very good time.

It looks like the game is degenerating from a peaceful builder race to Always War, which can only mean good things for us, provided Egypt doesn't get out of control.

LKendter (on deck)
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog
T-hawk (currently playing)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LAK-266.jpg
Half a golden age - I think you know what I want the leader to do.

All we got in the war was some more territory. Useful, but not as useful as some iron would have been. We were so ready for the war that I thought there was no sense delaying it. All the good Roman troops were well south of us or we would have been killed. We did get a free tech and a discount on a second, plus I traded for a third. So I guess it wasn't just territory. I agree with CC's analysis about Cleo and Pi-ramesses, although if we do get a chance to wipe out Rome for good we would have plenty of territory to win a space race without Iron (assuming there are some resources in our combined territories).

Hey, why'd we spend all that effort to raze the next city past Pompeii but not grab the spot? I hate to do this, but I waste 10 shields and use up two expensive pop points in Pyongyang to produce a settler to resettle.

Island - that spot looks as good as any on the island to settle. Inch'on founded.

Leader - yes, it's going to have to be Smith's, when that comes available. Checking on the cascade, Copernicus is the only wonder currently under construction, in three cities. Anyone know how long that's been running?

Inbetween turns: too late! Rome reclaims the space north of Pompeii with a new city. So our total gain from that war is one decent size-1 city and two uselessly corrupt ones.

460 AD: F2 now shows we can trade with Carthage and Iroquois; they got Navigation. I smell brokerage.

Wines, Furs, 100g, 7/turn to Iroquois for Navigation.
Navigation, Wines, 9/turn to Arabia for Metallurgy.
Navigation, Horses to Babylon for IRON!
Navigation to France for Gems + 2/turn.
Navigation to Rome for two Arabian workers and pocket change. May as well.

Some civs have Military Tradition, but we can't afford it.

Lux tax to 0%, recovering 30gpt income.

==========

510 AD: I was planning and building up for an Egyptian war to leave for Lee to execute. But, in 510 AD, Egypt demands 100 gold from us. I refuse, and Cleopatra declares war!

520 AD: To France we pay Furs + Wines + 18/turn to get Military Tradition.
For Saltpeter, we pay the Iroquois 29/turn plus our only Spices. (Happiness from negative war weariness will carry us for a bit.)

In Namp'o, we disband a catapult to get 5 shields in the box, rush a settler to 30 shields, and swap to barracks which the city will finish this turn. This is Fortress Namp'o, and on it rest all our hopes against Egypt.

Between turns, one Egyptian cavalry attacks Namp'o and retreats, and they land two spearmen (huh?) next to Inch'on.

Between turns, Namp'o finishes the barracks, and we pre-turn-upgrade seven horsemen to cavalry.

Also this turn, Economics gets around, but there's no way we can afford 50/turn to buy it right now.

530 AD: More positioning of troops, and we pick off that one Egyptian cavalry. Babylon completes Copernicus, and the cascade goes nutso.

540 AD: We kill four Egyptian cavalry and lose one of ours. We win at Inch'on, of course.

Hang on a second -

DAMMITWHYCAN'TOURFRIGGINUNIQUEUNITSTARTAGOLDENAGEA AAUGH!!! :aargh: :cry:

- Had to get that out of my system.

Between turns, bad news - Arabia and Egypt make peace.

==========

550 AD: Many decisions to be made here; I'm leaving much of it up to the group and the next leader.

I thought it best to let the cities on banks finish them. Then they should build military; any without barracks might want to build h'wacha.

We can get Arabia back to war with Egypt by giving them Military Tradition for an alliance. I think this would be a good idea.

We can buy Economics for 34/turn from France, and rush Smith's. I think that would be a good idea, since Smith's will immediately earn back about 15/turn.

We could also try this: move the settler we have in the combat zone to the desert tile S-S-SW of Namp'o and found a city there. That steals a saltpeter, which we might be able to sell towards getting Economics.

Or we could skip Smith's, and rush Magellan's with the GL right now to get a Commercial wonder. I don't recommend this, but it's an option.

Or we can form an army with the leader now, and hope to get another one before the cascade takes out Smith's. We do have two elite cavalry already.

In the Egyptian war, I'd love to knock out Abydos, Pi-Ramesses, and Buto to claim the iron, saltpeter, and spices, and get three cities in first-ring from our FP. Nobody has even Physics yet - it's quite a while until any rifles arrive on the scene (but there are plenty of enemy cavalry.)

If the game comes up close to the Industrial Age, it will be worth our while to pay for alliances with EVERY civ in the game against Egypt, to prevent them trading for Nationalism while we get it for free. (Do Embargoes too.) Then consider MOBILIZING us to carve out a big chunk of Egypt.

I left most of the units in the combat zone unmoved this turn, since it will require coordination by the next leader. Be careful of how fast you advance into Egyptian territory. Our current position on the mountains is a superb trap spot to ambush Egyptian cavalry; our cavs will get shredded if they go in farther just yet.

Abydos can be attacked in a single turn from our mountain fortress; I think we want to do that within a turn or two to destroy its production power for Egypt. It will only have muskets defending.

It's in your capable hands, Lee.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-550ad.zip

By me on page one
Why Korea? There UU sucks, and I just don't see them as a strong military power.
Of course, getting a golden age :rolleyes:



DAMMITWHYCAN'TOURFRIGGINUNIQUEUNITSTARTAGOLDENAGEA AAUGH!!!
:hmm: This I why I picked Korea for a "peaceful" game. Hwacha bite the big wiggie.


It's in your capable hands, Lee.
Oh goodie, my first pre-factory war with Deity. Well, I am thinking one nasty stunt depending on who has economics :satan:

T-Hawk: Copernicus was started during my turns , maybe turn 3-4. I thought I put it in my report but I guess not. It was started by the Babs and Carthage on the same turn if I remember correctly. I don't know about the third civ.

I razed Virconium because it was defended by spears, we had plenty of troops in position, to take cultural pressure off Pompeii, to improve our negotiation position, and to put the hurt on Rome in a more general way. Most other cities were either too far abroad or protected by muskets. The war had to be quick what with Knights and Legions on the Roman side. I looked at refounding a city there but with the Roman capitol so close, and Antium, it just didn't seem right. With about 6 squares of overlap with Roman cities (and a bunch with ours as well) and 2x as close to rome it was a flip waiting to happen. With Rome about to leave us in their cultural dust it just didn't seem worth it. Ravena will only have two squares of overlap (once its borders expand) and is 1.4x as close.

War with Egypt allready :eek: , careful what you wish for Arizona Steve.

I think a MA with Arabia is a must, they hate Egypt too so it shouldn't cost too much.

550AD (pre-turn) - I buy economics from France for $33/turn + $10.
I don't want to risk even on turn, so I "waste" a turn on the Cavalry in Namp'o and rush Smith's in the city.
The Arabs are totally screwed, so I don't want them to fight Egypt and die.

On the other hand, Rome is still a power. I sent them $31/turn to fight Egypt. We can't beat them on our own.
(I) As expected, we get Smith's. Income jumps from +81 to +104. The people are so happy that they expand the palace.

570 AD - We kill a stray MDI after our Hwach'a knock him down some.
Physics appears with all civs except Arabia, so I buy if from France for $46/turn and $185.
(I) I missed a way for Egypt to attack, so we lose the attacking cavalry :(

580 AD - We kill a stray Egyptian knight that entered our lands.
(I) Not good - Egypt attacks Namp'o and kills 2 musketmen losing 2 cavalry.

590 AD - I kill 5 Egypt cavalry at no cost except exposing 2 longbows to a counter-attack.
(I) Our only losses are the long bowmen.

600 AD (I) - Egypt commits suicide on a musketmen losing 1 cavalry.
Finally, I spot Egypt cavalry moving north toward Rome.
The Iroquois build Magellan's, with a cascade causing France to build Shakespeare's.

610 AD - We lose a elite cavalry attacking a cavalry :cry:
We kill a stray MDI.
:confused: No war weariness, but all of a sudden all our cities are miserable. No happy pills available, so I have no choice but to up the luxury tax to 10%.
(I) We have two dead Egypt cavalry for one dead musketmen.
Arabia completes Bach?

620 AD - :eek: Egypt captured Hispalis from Rome. If them make Cumae, it will get ugly.

630 AD - We kill a 3 unit invasion by Seoul at no cost along with a stray cavalry by Namp'o.
I can renegotiate peace with Rome now for just $20 getting us out of a large gpt payment.
We call up our buddy Joanie, and buy Magnetism for $380 and $40/turn.
The only thing left to enter the Industrial age is ToG. Of course, we are down to just +64 a turn :(
(I) The Iroquois and Arabs sign a peace treaty.
We lose another Musketmen in Namp'o.

640 AD - Yet again, we pick off two stray Egyptian units.
(I) The backstabbing Romans sign a peace treaty with Egypt.
The Iroquois start Newton and here comes ToG.

650 AD - I kill a bunch of stray Egyptian units and snag 2 workers inside their borders.
For $66/turn and $173 (I could not keep a penny in our treasury) we buy ToG.
Weird, I didn't get the popup. However, checking the science advisor shows we have Nationalism.
France gives us Democracy, Music Theory, $139/turn and $173.
Carthage gives us a pitiful Free Artistry and $44/turn.
Babylon is loaded with cash, and got to sell Nationalism to some of the other civs :(


Egypt will talk peace. I think continuing the war is a waste, but I will let CC decide.
We have several exposed units this turn including the captured workers.


Summary - We would have been better off giving Egypt the $100 - I have accomplished nothing at all.

LKendter
Carbon_Copy (currently playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Gothmog
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41-650AD.zip

I see this one. However, I can't play it right now (need to wake up for work in 4 hours, it's already past my bedtime :sad: ), and Saturday, like I've mentioned before, is completely out, I will not be in the house for more than a half hour from 6 am until likely about 3 or 4 am Sunday morning (all times EST). So I've got it, but don't expect anything to happen on Saturday.

It wasn't the $100, it was the chance to take a bite out of Egypt with them being the aggressing civ. I thought it would go much better than that, in fact.

The cities going unhappy was due to the loss of negative-weariness, which we got at the start of the war because Egypt was the aggressor.

I still think pulling in Arabia would have helped. We're out for our own gains, not to save anyone else. Oh well, can't win 'em all. :)

I still think pulling in Arabia would have helped. We're out for our own gains, not to save anyone else. Oh well, can't win 'em all.

I was afraid that Egypt might have taken them out. Less civs on our continent is bad for us. I went through havoc on being the only civ sharing a landmass before - GOTM#14 which was lost.

Hmm, actually, I'm going to be home all evening since the weather is so crappy. So that means I get to play tonight. Expect the post sometime early tomorrow (and by early I mean it will probably be around noonish ;) )

650 (0) - I take control of this empire and I am briefly overhwelmed. It's a very difficult spot Lee put me in, and it's my job to dig us out. We can make peace with Egypt now, and while it looks like we technically "won" this one (as Egypt is willing to pay us to end it), we didn't get anything useful out of it and we can't get anything useful out of peace negotiations (We're ahead of Egypt in the tech dept, we can't get any cities for peace, and Egypt has 2g, making 0 gpt). A metric ton of deals are going to expire next turn. I get peace from Egypt for 2g + WM (all they could give).

660 (1) - I renegotiate our gems deal with France, paying them 210 lump sum for 20 more turns of it. I sell wines to Babylon for 310g and WM, then renegotiate the horses for iron deal, having to kick furs into the deal to make it attractive, but getting back another 92g + 1 gpt for it. I then use the cash I built up to establish embassies with all of the civs we haven't established embassies with yet. Then I upgrade a few muskets to rifles.

670 (2) - Quiet turn

680 (3) - I re-micro P'yongyang, which was producing an evil 19 shields per turn. Now it makes 20.

690 (4) - I sell the hopelessly behind Arabs Physics for 5 gpt and 28g (all they have and all they make). I catch some :smoke: from turn 1 and decide that we can't wait 40 turns for Steam Power, so I switch the lone scientist to Medicine. I get sick of Ulsan starving every time it hits size 2 so I blow 72g on the harbor.

700 (5) - Quiet turn. I refrain from selling another tech to Arabia for even more of their gpt as I want them to build up a little cash up front first :evil: .

710 (6) - The train of longbows from Rome creeps into our territory by Namp'o (which would suggest that they aren't after us but are just trying to get them to Arabia who they are at war with through Egyptian territory). I rearrange some units from Namp'o to prevent Rome from moving them anywhere else but back into Egypt without declaring war.

720 (7) - Egypt signs MPP with the Iroquois. Not to worry, though, as Egypt still lacks Nationalism. Roman Longbow Train(tm) re-enters Egyptian territory, though more units enter into the one square that they occupied last turn. Babylon and Carthage have Communism.

730 (8) - Iroquois complete Newton's at Grand River.

740 (9) - Iroquois and France acquire Communism. Our wines and furs deal with France is up so we have those back to trade. France's price on Communism is ridiculous, but I do buy a French worker for 90g.

750 (10) - :lol: Egypt must have been fed up with the Roman Longbow Train(tm), because they declare war on Rome! Then, when Rome fights back on Egyptian soil, it pulls the Iroquois in this, too! Looks like for the first turn the RLT gave as good as it got, but they're doomed. Doomed doomed doomed. As soon as our peace deal with Rome expires, we should vulture away some of the prime Roman real estate or it will just get tossed in with the rest of Greater Egypt. I haven't done anything on the diplo rounds, haven't really checked everything out. Carthage, Iros, and France all got Steam Power on this turn, it would be a good idea to buy it, and the sooner the better (only 11 turns on the current iron deal with Babylon). Luckily we've got luxuries to trade away so we won't have to burn all of our cash.

Here's the situation: our salt deal with the Iros is up, and I don't want to renegotiate it if I don't have to (so far the Iros have been content to let the old deal stand), so nearly all of our cities have been building cavalry. P'yongyang is building rifles, and Cheju is building galleons (should we decide to try to go after those Egyptian-held islands). We have 1963g in the bank, making 286 per turn, which will grow briefly during the next player's turn as our gpt for tech deals with France expire and our Nationalism for gpt deals with Carthage/Iros/France remain in effect. Egypt still lacks Nationalism, and Rome and Arabia still haven't made it into the Industrial yet. Peace with Rome ends in 8 turns, let's hope there's still enough of it left for us to deny to Egypt. Workers are currently building routes in our new territory to major Roman cities, though once we have Steam Power, it should be all rails, all the time, and we'll probably have to buy more iron from Babylon anyhow. And that's assuming that we'll have coal. All of our muskets are rifles now except for the elite musket on the mountain guarding the Hwach'as.

File is here: 750 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-750ad.zip)

Originally posted by Carbon_Copy
650 (0) - I take control of this empire and I am briefly overhwelmed. It's a very difficult spot Lee put me in, and it's my job to dig us out.


I know the feeling - that is exactly what I got from T-hawk. I could do nothing more then keep the FP city from being overrun.

===========================

LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve (currently playing)
Gothmog (on deck)
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Got it, although I might take the full two days here - looks like a tough situation.

damn i will be folowing closley. Very interesting and i ahve come to a conclusion. Every game i have played. ever. egypt has becoem a MAJOR pain. They expand fast make huge miltary. If i had to choose between rome or egypt i woudl get egypt hard fast and wiht as many civs as possible. and btw. DONT RAZE THE CITIES! NOT ONLY DO YOU GET A HEAVY REP HIT BUT THAT IS ONE LESS CITY FOR YOU!!!! TAKE OVE RHTE ROMAN TERITRY! Then egypt and arabia!! then work on thos eislads and kepe the other civs techs down so you can get your space ship!

Got some quality time to play this, so here goes.

(0) 750AD
War with Rome is a must, preferably before they get Nationalism and Riflemen in their cities. I would target Tarentum, Antium, and possibly Rome itself. We do however have a peace agreement for the next 8 turns, so I will concentrate on getting as many troops as I can before declaring.
A secondary aim is to secure Steam Power and Industrialization to boost the war effort.
I begin by buying Steam Power from the Iroquois for furs, wines and 1960 gold (no gold per turn expenditure here after some haggling).
We have a pile of no less than 7 workers roading outside our territory. They'll finish this turn, so I don't bother stopping them.
Namp'o is producing 19 shields/turn - I MM this to 20.
Chedu is building a galleon, that will be of little use against Rome. I switch it to Hwatch'a production.
Hyangsan swaps from Cavalry to Hwatch'a.
Ravenna swaps from granary to courthouse.
As per usual, I notice no coal in our territory. This game has really sucked for resources.
Arabia and Rome sign a peace treaty.

(1) 760AD
A couple of Hwatch'a completed last turn and I move them towards pompeii in preparation for an attack on Rome.
I notice that Chedu and Pusan have some happy problems, so cathedrals are started in those cities.
We have a couple of workers available and what better task could they perform than to start railroading our land?
Babylon will sell us coal for 285 gold + 11/turn. They will also do a straight swap for our silks. Upping luxuries will require 41 gold/turn, so I take the 285 + 11/turn deal.
Carthage and Iroquois sign a military alliance against Rome. Looks like a classic dogpile.

(2) 770AD
We're working on the railroad...
I disband a couple of warriors as they're costing us gold per turn.
Some troops are moved away from Namp'o to Pompeii in preparation for war with Rome.
Some builds changed to emphasize Riflemen over Cavalry.

(3) 780AD
(4) 790AD
Medicine has been discovered by the Iroquois.
The Roman city near Pompeii is razed by Egypt.

(5) 800AD
I immediately mobilize the settler in Namp'o along with the Rifleman to claim the vacant space in former Roman lands.
France and Babylon have acquired Medicine.

(6) 810AD
Cathedrals are rushed in Chedu and Pusan.
Our settler/Rifleman uses the military railnet to move into position to settle in former Roman territory.

(7) 820AD
With the Roman cities that are being razed by the Egyptions, I start a couple of settlers to claim the land.
Pyongsong is founded in formaer ROman territory.
Babylon acquires Industriliazation.

(8) 830AD
Harbor rushed at Inch'on.
Electricity has also appeared on the trade list. The Iroquois and Babylon have it.
1108 gold + 130/turn to the Iroquois for Electricity.
Wines + Electricity + 85/turn to France for Industrialization + Medicine.
Industrialization + Medicine to Carthage for Communism (police stations).
40 turn research started on Sanitation.
P'yangyang changed to palace placeholder for Theory of Evolution.
Finally, I note that our peace deal with Rome is up and declare war on the smelly b'stards. The green cloud from their citizens' underpants has been blown in our direction for long enough!
At Tarantum, we defeat two spearmen and the city is ours. a LOT of units are fortified there to prevent flips.
A large stack of cavalry is moved onto a mountain next to Antium.
France signs an MPP with the Iroquois.
The Iroquois declared war on Arabia.

(9) 840AD
I decide to take a chance and attack Antium. We lose one longbow, they lose three muskets and the city is ours. Since the Egyptions are massing HUGE stacks of cavalry outside Rome, I figure that the Roman capital will be taken or razed, and we'll be a little more safe from a flip.

(10) 850AD
Taejon is founded.
I'm amazed at the inability of Egypt to conduct a decent war, so I check out Rome with a cavalry. I find that undeneath the inital musketman are two spearmen. Rome is razed, relieving some of the cultural pressure on our new cities. We do get a couple of catapaults for our troubles, as well as the usual slaves.

Summary: The war against rome is going well. I captured two cities of theirs, and founded two additional cities in former Roman land that was razed by Egypt.
We need more settlers. I swapped Chedu onto one, and there is another settler North of Pyongyong underneath a rifleman.
P'yangyang is on a palace placeholder for Theory of Evolution. Scientific Method has not appeared yet.
I'm wondering if a trade deal expired - we're only making 4 gold/turn right now. Next leader should check.

Here's the save - LK41_850AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_850AD.zip)

And a picture of our civ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_0003.jpg

keep the other civs techs down so you can get your space ship!

Not strictly true. Once you can outproduce the AI civs it is helpful to gift them techs so that they can help your own research. For non-scientific civs, this is particularly helpful due to the free techs that the scientific civs get at end-of-era, that you can then trade for.

Definitely the best strategy for an early spaceship launch.

Woah, Rome who? They will be gone by the end of my turns if I read the situation right (don't they have an island somewhere?). If Rome has no Saltpeter or Iron then their flip unit will be spears, in that case I will leave our flip likely cities empty with forces outside. Even if they have some, I'll do a similar thing. Hard to see but if that is coal east of Pompeii? If so that will be a top priority for settlement, and quickly. When Rome is gone we have to be on the lookout for Egypt turning to us. Looks good Arizona.

'Got it', no chance to play tonight though. Hopefully tomorrow night, but it could take the whole 48 if I get a bit of unluck (having my roof redone tomorrow).

Hey arazona stever an lk. LK: I ned the mod that makes th eletters appear on the lux and strat resources plz. Arizona: I need your graphics mod plz. thanx!

Great turn, Steve. This needs to be a "final war" with Rome, anything we don't capture (I think we're safe enough to capture at this point) we might as well write off to Egypt and Egypt doesn't need any more help. Besides, These guys have to be completely gassed for units, I saw them send ALL of their spares into Egyptian territory and they all probably got bushwhacked during the first two or three turns that Steve played.

The pile of 7 workers was there to give us a route to capture Hispalis when the treaty expired, we had already improved just about every tile that could have been improved for our southern cities. Unfortunately Egypt got there first. The two warriors in Namp'o were well worth their 2gpt upkeep, IMO, as it made it much less likely for that city to flip to Egypt (a significant non-zero possibility with those three tiles of overlap and Egypt's high civ-wide culture, we probably need 6-9 flip-suppressors to completely prevent it).

No coal? :eek: All I'm saying is that there had BETTER be oil and rubber in our own territory or I will be a very crabby person. Who ever heard of such a large swath of territory only having horses for strategic resources? Was I right about Pi-Ramesses being an Ironworks city?

Gothmog, we NEED to plug these gaps, anything that doesn't get settled by us will be settled by Egypt and every city of ours that covers the existing road net will slow down any Egyptian reinforcements. And please, could you be more specific in your notes than just early/middle/late turns?

true. Just a thought htough. But i prefer to go and win through military. i also try to do ship an dother stuff. I usaly try to keep th eAI down to out tech them. In my game i was in the final age and they had just got into the indutrialage. I had like 9 or 10 techs on them. hehe. But that was on cheiftian as a 'sim' game.

The answer to my bet: yes and no.

In my curiosity I fired up my 750 save and traded for Steam Power. There are in fact three Ironworks-possible sites worldwide. Pi-Ramesses is technically not one of them. Technically. The real Ironworks site is two tiles north of Pi-Ramesses, using coal from near Buto and the iron from that mountain. The good news is that means Egypt can't build the Ironworks due to the city placement, so there' s no need to hurry to deny it to them. There's a second capable site in Babylon by Ur, but again Babylon didn't put the city in the right spot for the IW, it would have to be moved to the south and east by at least one tile, which would take it off the coast. The third IW site is in Carthage at Leptis Magna, and in this case they actually DID put the city in a spot that can build it. So hurray for Hannibal, I guess.

There we go, if we ever needed more of a reason to raze Buto and Pi-Ramesses, this was it. And just like LK36, the site ended up being first ring to our Forbidden Palace.

CC, no problem. I'll write up some detailed notes just for you!

Oh and don't worry, I'll be grabing all the land possible.

@widdowmaker - I found the letters somewhere in the Graphics mod section. I can't remember where off the top of my head.

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LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
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What truly sucks - I tried to form a city where Buto was, and that city has coal :cry:
I tried, but I would have needed a settler at the begining of my turn.

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We have electricty - please swap workers by Inch'on to irrigation.


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The two warriors in Namp'o were well worth their 2gpt upkeep, IMO, as it made it much less likely for that city to flip to Egypt

I couldn't agree more - that was pure :smoke:

I'm still playing, I'll finish it tonight. I did get to do my preturn and am in the middle of my 3rd turn presently.

Teaser - Rome is gone. With a bit of rushing on my part we filled in all the space and got all the cities except Pisae.

Preturn: There is no Roman island, its Iroquois now – good. I wake (?) a number of Cav and move them north. I rush a Roman settler from Tarentum. I also swap Pusan from Cav to Settler. Click…

IT – A ton of Egyptian Cav move towards Pisae. We lose a deal for Gems.

860 AD – Attack on Neapolis: Vet Cav does 1 damage to vet musket and retreats, 2nd Cav kills musket, 3rd Cav beats a spear and Neapolis is ours.

I kill a stray spear in the open but it redlines the Cav that attacked.

I capture a stray worker. I work on our intercity rail line, esp. to the front. I move Cav into position to attack Lugdunum and Brundisium next turn.

Our cash flow is a problem at –2 w/200 in treasury. So I cancel our Saltpeter deal with the Iroquois, then I sell them spices for 240 + 15gpt.

IT – We lost our Iron supply :eek: , which is needed for rails of course. The Babs want wines+furs+275g+25gpt to renew so I let it go for now. Pisae is now Egyptian. Stacks of Egyptian Cav move towards Lugdunum.

870 AD – Iroquois wont give us Iron at any price, so I call Egypt and get Iron for Communism + 10 gpt.

Attack on Lugdunum: Elite Cav does two damage to vet Musket and retreats. Elite Cav kills reg Musket. Vet Cav kills wounded Musket and Lugdunum is ours. Sorry Cleo.

Attack on Brundisium: Vet Cav kills reg Musket and promotes. Elite Cav does one damage to reg Musket and retreats. The wounded Musket appears to be the only defender left so I send one of my 3 Cavs out to capture two Roman workers next to Brundisium. Vet Cav kills wounded Musket and Brundisium is ours.

Rome is now eliminated. There are 22 Egyptian Cav left next to Lugdunum.

Paegam founded, Manp’o founded, Kaesong founded, the last settler was for the Pisae site but Egypt didn’t raze that one.

I call up the Babs and sell them Horses for 120g+18gpt. I sell furs to Carthage for 120g+21gpt, more Horses go to France for Gems+4gpt. Finally the Iroquois want 650g+29gpt for Saltpeter, which I decline.

I swap to Courthouses everywhere appropriate.

IT – Babs and France sign MA vs. Arabia. Our Palace expands (x2). Egyptian forces trek south although a few Muskets continue north. I’ll feel much better when Egypt is mostly South of us.

880 AD – Work on intercity rail net and wish we had more rifles. Egypt is a Democracy so I don’t trade them furs to help with their WW.

IT – Egypt and Iroquois sign a MA vs. Arabia.

890 AD – Railing continues. IT – Egypt continues south.

900 AD – Iroquois and France have RP now. All our gold+gpt+furs to France brings us close. IT – nada.

910 AD – Iroquois and France now have Corporation too. The Babs just have Corporation so… furs+1000+91gpt to France for RP. RP to Babs for Corporation+15g+15gpt. I also send wines to Carthage for 550 gold (we’ll need that for upgrades).

I gift Nationalism to the Arabs in an attempt to prolong their life. I still don’t want to give Egypt furs but I want their spices so I can reduce our lux to 0%. So I give them Electricity for spices and I get saltpeter thrown in for 4 gpt more, I then upgrade a couple Catapult we captured from the Romans (RIP Caesar).

Survey says… we have 1 rubber :yeah: , unhooked in former Roman lands.

IT – Babs and France sign an MPP.

920 AD – Rubber now hooked up; I upgrade a bunch of rifles.

The Iroquois, French, Babs, and Carthage all have Sanitation now.

I buy a worker from the Arabs.

IT – nada.

930 AD - :band: post-RP workers Rock!

IT – Carthage and Iroquois sign MA vs. Arabs. Our first factory completes in Seoul -> Stock Exchange.

940 – I MM Seoul to 50 spt at 1 fpt loss, Stock Exchange in 4.

IT – Iroquois and Arabia sign peace treaty. Namp’o completes factory.

950 AD – Egypt now has Sanitation, but I don’t feel like giving them Industrialization for it.

The save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_950AD.zip

And a screenshot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41_950AD.jpg

Got it, will play tomorrow evening. Hopefully it'll go better than my last turn.

We should trade Industrialization for Sanitation, definitely! Why pass up a free tech? :)

LKendter (on deck)
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog
T-hawk (currently playing)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Originally posted by T-hawk
Got it, will play tomorrow evening. Hopefully it'll go better than my last turn.

We should trade Industrialization for Sanitation, definitely! Why pass up a free tech? :)


I don't know - do we really want to do anything to strengthen Egypt? We are almost destined to fight them again, and the less they can produce the better. If it were my turns, I won't give Egypt a thing.

Denying a particular tech to the AI never works for long if you don't have a monopoly on the tech. They'll get it from someone else before the end of my turn. And the AI isn't nearly as good at managing factories as we are; they don't know how to prebuild and have factories ready to go right away.

I'll look at the whole situation before deciding for sure, but I think we should make that trade. We're looking for the space race, and after eating up Rome (great job, Gothmog :goodjob: ) we have enough territory to compete for that now without going on the offensive against Egypt. Also, we have infantry now, and the AI can't ever use artillery to beat them, so we have little to fear on the defensive side.

I really just left it to you to decide about Sanitation T-hawk. We do have enough territory now to compete for the Space Race, no problem. Especially *when* we get ToE and Hoover.

The main reason I didn't do it is in case we want to do a limited war with Egypt now. We have infantry and as you say the AI can't handle that, at least until tanks. So in a war with Egypt now we could take Pisae and maybe a few cities south of our (currently almost useless) FP. Also maybe the island to our north-east. Then we would have our own source of Coal and Iron. Also, there may be Oil on that Egyptian Island. As a bonus Egypt would waste plenty of Cav attacking our Fortified infantry. This option is just becoming a possibility now that we have a few factories online and the Egyptian stack o' Cav has moved s