Rhye's and Fall of Asia - Version 0.8 [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

civ-addicted

Sep 04, 2011, 12:46 PM

Version 0.8 Changelog

Gameplay changes:
1. new attempt on Islam; no more islamic holy city in Asia
2. Changed Jinja, Torii, Geisha House and boosted Shintoism to arm Japan for a Espionage-based game
3. new Ghaznavid UB: Khaneqah, replaces Great Mosque; availible a little earlier and ext GP birth rate
4. new Maurya UB: Edict, replaces Monument; -15% city upkeep
5. Altered UHVs of Qin, Han, Maurya and Japan to make them playable.
6. Ghorids are changed back to kinda-Delhi Sultanate and are a lot stronger now.
7. Added the plague module from DoC
8. If a chinese civ collapses, the youngest chinese civ gets all the cities...needs to be balanced out someday
9. A first step to a more balanced out stability module. Don't expect wonders, but it's a bit more balanced now.
10. Instead of the Zhou Chariot, Zhou get an UB: Feng
11. new Qin UP and removed the code from a really old one.
12. Some tweaks on Japan in the map
13. Song starts in Kaifeng, keeps them from conquering Machuria.

Fixes:
1. Removed Tokugawa from DiplomacyInfos.xml
2. Fixed Butuan's Artstyle bug
3. Jurchen's UP works! one half at least ;)
4. Thanks to Siam, South East Asia got a overhaul in the citynamemanager

Additions/Removals:
1. Added TXT_KEYs for civic strategies
2. Added Han UP (keep in mind that it's just temporary); Power of Rebellion: Extra stability hit for enemy on city conquest.
3. New UHVs for Korea
4. New Ghaznavid UP: unlimited artists
5. New Korean UP: Power of Education: 1 extra beaker per specialist
6. Added Itsukushima Shrine: +1 Espionage per Specialist
7. Civopedia entries for almost everything.

Art:
1. Added art for Legalist School and Pound Lock
2. Changed art for Dongtian
3. added art for the Balangay
4. actual art for the new barb units instead of red cones
5. New art for the Khampa Horseman
6. Added the latest version of Gaozong
7. Switched art for Dharmasetu and Sri Bata Shaja
8. changed colors
9. New Diplo music, thanks to Cybrxkhan
10. Art for the Shenwu Guard by Bakuel
11. All world wonders have buttons now
12. Altered the language of the units...the best possible, i guess

Most important of all: Exported cost of units, buildings and techs, plus city maintenace cost to python! Used code from RFGW
It's quite easy to use: Go into Const.py and scroll down to the bottom: Every array has a small desciption what they do.

-------------------------------------------------------
Version 0.8.1 Changelog

Gameplay changes:
1. Removed the +100% Golden Age length from Elective Monarchy. It's strong enough already.
2. In the MoH-mechanism, if you have your capital in China, you can claim the Title.
3. Apart from the timeframe when a new chinese civ spawns, there will be only one civ in China
4. Moving some capitals according to history. (Jurchen and Mongolia only for the AI)
5. Pratically everytime there's no Muslim Holy City. They do have a shrine though (Jamia Masjid), which is buildable in any city with Islam and need 3 Mosques.
6. Bigger Jurchen Core; they should be stronger anyway
7. Smaller Song core
8. Siam has anything a decent civ needs: UP (the old Chalukyan one), UHVs, civopedia entries and art for anything.
9. I changed Vietnam's UHVs a little, making them playable again.

Fixes:

1. Elective Monarchy doesn't give double Golden Age length anymore
2. Pax Mongolica's effect is shown in the civopedia
3. I replaced all anachronist hints with some that are related to the modmod
4. Fixed an error in the stability maps, so Sri Vijaya will enjoy a core again
5. Lowered the values in the stability maps for Japan to prevent them from settling Taiwan and the Phillipines before Ryuukuu.
6. I tweaked the values for the Chinese to make Song in the end not that overpowered

Additions/Removals:

1. Siam!
2. Khmer gets an UU again: Phak'ak, attacking Elephant units first

Art:

1. If you claim the MoH, your Flag changes. Works for every civ ;)
2. Every civ has a decent Button
3. A bit more appropiate flags for Han and Song, and a better looking for Tang
4. Art for the Ho Trai, Tumen Amugulang and Shufa Studio

-------------------------------------------------------
Version 0.8.2 Changelog

Gameplay changes:
1. A third UHV for Maurya
2. Changed UHVs for the Tocharians, enlarging the time scale for them.
3. Threshold for first Japanese UHV lowered to 90%
4. An attempt of balancing the Minor Religion spread. The spread to China is too damn high!
5. barb Camel Archer and Rajput Infantry spread Islam resp. Hinduism on city conquest, removing all other religions.
6. Moved back the Khmer to 600AD, to keep South East Asia balanced as it was
7. Changed UHVs for Chalukya to make them playable
8. Moved the date for Han UHVs to 600AD

Fixes:
1. A less buggy China for the human player
2. Fixed stability maps (for real this time)
3. No more helicopter missionaries, workers and settlers!
4. Made sure that the Indo-Greek's UHVs work again...no idea what caused the hickup
5. Removed Independants from civopedia, but added Indo-Greeks instead
6. Fixed a terrible error that forbid a decent civil war between Qin and Zhou
7. A little reduced city upkeep for Göktürks
8. Some more chinese names in Turkestan
9. Shwedagon Paya requires Buddhism now
10. Some additions in the Harrapan and chinese cityname map
11. Less techs for Jurchen, Ghaznavids and Khmer on start

Additions/Removals:
1. UP for the Indo-Greeks, but only for the human player
2. Yogis for Butuan
3. Less starting units for Siam
4. The return of the Nestorian Missionary
5. Nestorian See doesn't need a tech anymore, just 5 Churches
6. Less starting techs for Khmer, Ghaznavids and Jurchen
7. Timber is accesible with a camp now

Art:
1. Changed Indo-Greek to actual Indo-Greeks with Menander as a LH (i'm working on custom art)
2. Camels are shown properly shown in the city screen.
3. For now, there is no "Minor Religion" advisor; that sounds stupid anyway. I'm planning to include Minor Religions in the actual Religion Advisor

civ-addicted

Sep 04, 2011, 12:46 PM

Stability maps coming up soon.

New Concepts:
The Mandate of Heaven:The Mandate of Heaven is a philosophical concept in the Chinese Empire to legitimitize political power, comparable to the european Divine Right of Kings. In the game, a civ with its capital in China can gain this title, granting the Emperors Residence with huge benefits. Various factors like civics, certain buildings, score and cities in China are required raise the chance of gaining it.
The Silk Route:Once in a while civs from Europe or Africa will appear in your realm. You can decide which benefit you want (Trade, Culture or Science), and based on the amount of resources your benefit will be bigger.
Chinese Civil wars:If another chinese civ spawns, after some turns the two civs get compared. Fist of all, if one civ has below -10 stability, it automatically collapses. If both civs have over -10 stability, a value consisting of the stability itself and, but just for the human player, the amount of army. The one with the lower value collapses. If the new one collapses, its cities going independant, if the old one collapses, the unimportant cities gets destroyed(low culture, far away from capital, no holy city etc.), the rest will be handed over to the new civ after some rebalancing.

Leoreth

Sep 04, 2011, 01:09 PM

civ-addicted

Sep 04, 2011, 01:52 PM

Great to see RFCA is on rails again. It's been some time since I last visited the mod, I guess now I should take the time to take a look at it again.

My greatest problem with the mod was always its centerpiece, China. The Mandate of Heaven and all the various dynasties are good, but the ahistorical way of how they live side by side isn't. I'll ponder a little how to avoid this.

Take all the time you need:D

Yeah, China is a toughy :undecide: Think of a 80% chance that there is a correct transition from one Dynasty to another, you'll have roughly a 20% chance of a historical game. I guess i have to make it a bit more deterministic; stability hits, and if Han survives Tang for example, they have to suffer :(. I think scripted loss of culture and population, destruction of cities can be justified as the outcome of a civil war... I've seen a 1000AD Zhou Empire that was 3 times ahead in points. No one wants that.
China will be the next big project.

Leoreth

Sep 04, 2011, 01:57 PM

Great. I can't really say anything constructive or specific at the moment because I guess all my previous experiences are already outdated.

merijn_v1

Sep 05, 2011, 09:10 AM

Nice mod.

When you created a Sourceforge for this mod (if you create one), I will start to help you with the modding of the Mod if you want. I can do XML and artwork. (like I do with RFCE)

civ-addicted

Sep 05, 2011, 02:00 PM

Sweet. You already did a lot of awesome work for this mod, so i'll try anything to keep you:p

hangman

Sep 06, 2011, 07:35 PM

civ-addicted

Sep 07, 2011, 02:17 AM

I don't think Japan's scouting UHV is coded correctly; it triggers, but I had all but one east asian city visible and I didn't get it. Also, in that game, the Jurchen conquered some Mongolian city, which made me think it might be better to define a region instead of using the civ list. It would be kind of unfair if the Song conquered Ghazna or something ;) Maybe that's what the 95% is for, but in the same game, the Jurchens settled a city just before the deadline, and there's also the possibility of conquests, so you also have to consider that.

I had a look at the python, if you couldn't tell, but tbh, it looks okay to me...idk why it wouldn't work :dunno:That's what the 95% is for. I first had it at 100% but then i noticed that you can't control what you just mentioned, plus it's a nuisance to have 10 spies everywhere and move them every single turn. I might lower it to 90%.Also, the Qing might need a bigger stability hit; they managed to survive the Han and crushed the Tang, and were finally subdued by the Song. But kudos on the bigger flip zones.That's my next project. Right now, if a chinese civ collapses, all the cities of the collapsed one will be handed over to the youngest chinese civ; but all the cities lose some population and culture. I like the results (leaves it fair and balanced), what we need is the same for the old one if it doesn't collapse. I coded a little bit and try to playtest it this weekend.

AdrienIer

Sep 07, 2011, 11:58 AM

civ-addicted

Sep 07, 2011, 01:43 PM

Just started a game as the Mongols, and even though I understand that you haven't necessarily had time to make proper UHV's for them, I think that a simple conquest UHV would be fine (at least temporarily). The beginning game as the Mongols is great, it really feel right with lots of keshiks to conquer lots of land, just three objectives like :
Control or vassalize all the land from Mongolia to Samarkand by 1235 (sooner would not be possible ingame I think),
Control all of China by ~1279 and
Have the biggest empire in Asia in 1300

would be alright for now.

It sounds that you made it, than i will add it in the first patch. I'll add a raze UHV instead of the third (hangman requested that).
So that they have at least something until i can work on the late game.

Good news, Everyone: Sourceforge is up! (https://sourceforge.net/projects/rfca-unm/)

2phunkey4u

Sep 08, 2011, 05:54 AM

That third UHV is redundant. How about accomplishing the naval invasion of Japan which the real-life Mongols were not successful at?

civ-addicted

Sep 08, 2011, 06:37 AM

That third UHV is redundant. How about accomplishing the naval invasion of Japan which the real-life Mongols were not successful at?

Since the UHVs above are only temporarily, it doesn't really matter. I still consider Mongolia unplayable, because their start is unpredictable; it seemed to me that the lack of Mongolian UHVs are an aesthetic issue for some who downloaded the modmod. Which is true, and i'm trying to get rid of the Alpha smell asap:)
But you're right, Japan should be an objective for them.

merijn_v1

Sep 08, 2011, 07:52 AM

Could you post the root, so I can have acces to the mod with Sourceforge. Can you also assign me to the project. My SVN name is "merijnv1".

AdrienIer

Sep 08, 2011, 10:53 AM

It sounds that you made it, than i will add it in the first patch. I'll add a raze UHV instead of the third (hangman requested that).
So that they have at least something until i can work on the late game.

OK about the razing UHV.
I didn't really go for Samarkand so I don't really know if the date is right, but it can be changed later.
Also it's quite annoying to have to fight the barbarian keshiks that spawn all around. One of them even conquered one of my cities... Perhaps it would be better to flip the areas in the West that are controlled by barbarian keshiks at the beginning.
I'm in 1238 right now, and my economy is really bad, at 0% research and at 0 gold, my units are on strike. At first I was relying on city conquest to refund myself but the Song are so powerful that my advance is at a halt. For now, it would seem that a Mongolian game is rather unplayable (and I'm playing on viceroy...).
Also I'd like to point out that the starting location is on a wheat resource, whereas spawning them 1W makes for a better use of ressources (you lose the Iron but win a horse and a deer, and the iron can always be in the second city's BFC, my second city was 1S of the cow to the east).

hangman

Sep 08, 2011, 10:57 PM

The Mongols are very playable, as long as you don't conquer too quickly. I got a domination victory relatively easily and without strikes before...

btw, what is the plan for the Pax Mongolica project?

civ-addicted

Sep 09, 2011, 01:44 AM

The Mongols are very playable, as long as you don't conquer too quickly. I got a domination victory relatively easily and without strikes before...So, less tight on time? All i need are dates when it's doable. And UHVs that doesn't trigger a Domination Victory...btw, what is the plan for the Pax Mongolica project?The Pax Mongolica already has an effect: If you build it, the Silk Road event happens twice as often. I guess it's not displayed in the civopedia or as a tooltip, so it will be there soon ;)

Baron03

Sep 10, 2011, 08:32 AM

hangman

Sep 10, 2011, 11:01 AM

So, less tight on time? All i need are dates when it's doable. And UHVs that doesn't trigger a Domination Victory...

I don't remember exactly when I finished, but it was shortly before the Tang spawned.

civ-addicted

Sep 10, 2011, 12:30 PM

The Qin almost always defeat the Han and Zhou, why not add a Sui Rebellion to weaken the Qin or Han? Just have a bunch of Barbarian units to help bring the Tang in power, or to stop a dominant Chinese Civ until the Song spawn.I coded something that doesn't make it necessary. Right now, i want to make sure that there is only one chinese alive, apart from the little timeframe when a new chinese civ spawns. I never seen Qin surviving Han, and that's something i actually want once in a while.I don't remember exactly when I finished, but it was shortly before the Tang spawned.Wait, what? So the Mongols are alive before 1200AD?! That's exactly the problem i encounter right now, and i thought it's got something to do with me adding Siam :think:

Anyhow, 2 pics of what i'm doing right now:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301498&stc=1&d=1315677953

Finally a Siam!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301497&stc=1&d=1315677953

More of a gimmick. If you claim the Mandate of Heaven as a non-chinese civ, your flag changes; so you actually enjoy a full-blown Jin Empire fe.

Leoreth

Sep 10, 2011, 12:39 PM

Great idea about the flag change!

hangman

Sep 10, 2011, 06:43 PM

Wait, what? So the Mongols are alive before 1200AD?!

Uhh... That game was for v0.7...did you change the spawn times for the Tang? Or maybe it was the Song I was worried about my cities flipping to. I believe it was ~1350 or so.

Finally a Siam!

woot!

More of a gimmick. If you claim the Mandate of Heaven as a non-chinese civ, your flag changes; so you actually enjoy a full-blown Jin Empire fe.

Huh, I didn't know it was possible to change flags during a game. That's actually kind of cool.

civ-addicted

Sep 11, 2011, 07:02 AM

Uhh... That game was for v0.7...did you change the spawn times for the Tang? Or maybe it was the Song I was worried about my cities flipping to. I believe it was ~1350 or so.

v0.7 explains something. I had a problem that Mongolia spawned in 3000BC caused by a stupid error in the DLL. But it's fine now:whew:

Leoreth

Sep 11, 2011, 07:23 AM

1350 sounds more like it was the Ming.

Tigranes

Sep 17, 2011, 11:17 AM

civ-addicted

Sep 18, 2011, 11:19 AM

Hey there! How is it going with this mod? Did you settle a question about some Philippines civilization, Kingdom of Tondo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Tondo), for example? Right now those islands are empty, while they can be put to a good use.

Also, whats up with Mongolia? If you played Crimea from RFCE++ mod -- their UP is a perfect fit for Mongols -- one citizen in capital per every city razed -- Karakorum will look awesome :)

Oh, hello again:beer: i havn't seen you in quite a while.
The Phillipines aren't empty anymore, since Black Whole added Butuan; a second civ there isn't necessary tbh. The current civ is a mixture of Butuan and Tondo, i might take it that way.

Mongolia will get some love soon. You can't treat them as a normal civ for various reason. For example, they can resemble the Yuan Dynasty which requires them to have the capital in China (Beijing fe), and any kind of enslavement like the Crimean Khanate did never happen by the Yuan iirc. Nice idea nevertheless:)

Anyway, the first patch is up. As promised, updates are more frequent now:D
To install it, just overwrite your current folder with the one in the download (please make a backup copy before)

EDIT: I found a nice model for the Chang Suek in merijn's modmod, also the model for Khmer's UU.

SVN will come soon, i'm trying to make it work.

merijn_v1

Sep 19, 2011, 08:48 AM

Oh, hello again:beer: i havn't seen you in quite a while.
The Phillipines aren't empty anymore, since Black Whole added Butuan; a second civ there isn't necessary tbh. The current civ is a mixture of Butuan and Tondo, i might take it that way.

Mongolia will get some love soon. You can't treat them as a normal civ for various reason. For example, they can resemble the Yuan Dynasty which requires them to have the capital in China (Beijing fe), and any kind of enslavement like the Crimean Khanate did never happen by the Yuan iirc. Nice idea nevertheless:)

Anyway, the first patch is up. As promised, updates are more frequent now:D
To install it, just overwrite your current folder with the one in the download (please make a backup copy before)

EDIT: I found a nice model for the Chang Suek in merijn's modmod, also the model for Khmer's UU.

SVN will come soon, i'm trying to make it work.

Do you have the models from my modmod, or do I have to include them when the SVN is finished?

civ-addicted

Sep 19, 2011, 11:46 AM

Do you have the models from my modmod, or do I have to include them when the SVN is finished?

I already included them in the current patch. No need to worry about it anymore;)

jtb1127

Sep 20, 2011, 04:32 AM

This looks pretty good. I'll download it when I get home today.

Tigranes

Sep 20, 2011, 10:13 AM

civ-addicted

Sep 20, 2011, 03:08 PM

I am looking on the map -- and almost all the corners here were challenged by Mongols in some form or time. Yuan dynasty should be only part of the story of Mongols, not the main element. Karakorum was the major site for WORLD politics, envoys and princes from Europe would travel to stand in front of the Great Khan. It may be short-lived but was regarded by Mongols as important center. China is already represented by 7 civs (dynasties), so I really suggest to emphasize "globalism" and "mongolism" when crafting UHVs and UP for Mongols. Razing cities and sparing artisans sounds very "mongolian" :) In any case -- what are your ideas about Mongolia? I don't know about you but I still remember Civ2 Mongols scenario -- I liked it so much, that I remember I was attempting to reenact Mongols conquest trying to keep up with the actual timeline :crazyeyes: So you better make them cool :lol:

Well, unfortunatly i never played Civ2:blush:. You still can give me pointers what was good about it, and i try to implement it if it's possible;)
When i played this modmod for the first time i thought it would be cool to have Warlord's Gengis Khan scenario within here, but the more i got into coding the more i saw that this is merely impossible. There are just some things you can't do because of the game mechanics, unless you script like hell (one example would be a realtime Alexander's campaign in RFC). Mongolia would end up winning a conquest victory before a UHV to control their historical area; a UHV should give yet another possibility to win besides the classic ones. You still can go and conquer everything (i think it would be fair to raise the threshold for a conquest victory so it requires their historical area), but the UHV should have other objectives.
And their current UP is necessary, because if you give them those units from the start i'm afraid of the AI dispanding them because they are too expensive.
Black Whole always talked about ressembling either the Yuan Empire or the Chagatai Khanate; I think the latter might ressemble even the Timurid. All UHVs will all have two conditions and each one of those two should only be possible whatever nation (Yuan or Chagatai) you choose, like "Claim the Mandate of Heaven by 1270 OR Control Persia, Turkestan and the Tarim Basin by 1230" or something along those lines. Right now, i'm fooling around with some values while hoping that the game ends up being more like actual history, instead of brainstorming all too much about the late-game. Siam was enough work already;)

@all:
That reminds me of something: due to the new mechanic, the Qin game is pretty damn buggy at the end of the second century BC. There is hardly any point in playing them until the next patch, so don't waste you time.

Tigranes

Sep 20, 2011, 03:30 PM

civ-addicted

Sep 21, 2011, 03:13 AM

There is a silly bug with Ming -- one cannot run them with autostart, it never goes past the first turn with the latest patch. When I hit escape the game starts with one lonely foot unit in ocean lower right corner.Oh, i see.Also simply renaming Butuan does not make it Tondo. Those kingdoms where on different islands, and each have their pro's and con's to represent future Philippines. I favor Tondo because the first written record we have about pre-colonial Philippines comes from Tondo (they were active with Ming). Butuan could be a better choice UHV-wise, as they traded both with India and China (Tang). We can make a UHV asking to make some gold using Great Merchants or to explore all the ocean tiles.I find it hard to argue which one was more important, because the chances are good that you never heard of either. If the time line would end beyond 1500 when the Spanish would arrive, you could easily make a transition from Tondo to Manila (like Tenochtitlan to Ciudad de Mexico), so Tondo would be in fact the better one. But now, i'd choose Butuan for two points: The UB and UU just fits perfectly for them, and i didn't find anything that good for Tondo, and secondly the location of their capital. I like it better when the capital is roughly at the center of the empire; to minimize city upkeep one should do that with his empire, and i don't want it to feel natural when colonizing China.
The UHVs aren't final of course.Originally all the Philippines kingdoms had a strong Hindu influence, so whichever civ name you chose could start with Hindu missionary.That sounds good. When i played them, i was hoping for the whole time that Buddhism spreads to me so i get a little culture.

Tigranes

Sep 21, 2011, 10:28 AM

I was also hoping that you could consider more powerful main sound theme -- the current one sounds eastern, but that is the only merit it has :). If you look in the History of 3 Kingdom's Medieval soundtrack folder the first tune is just awesome. This (http://video.mail.ru/mail/bonitolo-luks/4498/4280.html) tune also simply derserves to be in some great Civ mod, but unfortunately does not sound very eastern.

civ-addicted

Sep 21, 2011, 11:15 AM

Thanks to the GEMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaft_f%C3%BCr_musikalische_Auff%C3%BChrung s-_und_mechanische_Vervielf%C3%A4ltigungsrechte) i'm not allowed to watch this video:mad: it feels like living in China [pissed]
If you're confident about this tune, it would be great if you could give it me in some other way.

merijn_v1

Sep 22, 2011, 09:21 AM

There is a bug that auto-declares war when I meet a civ.

Black Hawk 4701

Sep 22, 2011, 11:16 AM

I started a game as Sri Vijaya, but I found my first city was in an instable area. Also I played as the Khmers and won a Historical Victory, very fun civ except for the Siamese spawn. Finally I played as the Yuezhi or Tocharians, (Which is it?) completed route to China than started going for camels the one NW of Kashgar and one to the east. Anyway long story short i got slaugthered by Indo-Greeks and Barbs.

civ-addicted

Sep 22, 2011, 02:11 PM

There is a bug that auto-declares war when I meet a civ.

Some civs start at war with each other (Indo-Greeks and Maurya, Han and Vietnam etc.). I never looked at the code, but after countless games it seems to me that it's deterministic rather than random. I usually don't like determinism, but Indo-Greeks not at war with Maurya would end up pretty stupid.

I started a game as Sri Vijaya, but I found my first city was in an instable area. Also I played as the Khmers and won a Historical Victory, very fun civ except for the Siamese spawn. Finally I played as the Yuezhi or Tocharians, (Which is it?) completed route to China than started going for camels the one NW of Kashgar and one to the east. Anyway long story short i got slaugthered by Indo-Greeks and Barbs.

-I spotted the Sri Vijaya bug which is caused by an accidental strange stability maps declaration (i swear that it's not my fault:lol:). You may see that some spots in the ocean are stable:mischief: I'm thought i had included a fix in the patch, not sure though.
-Siam is the latest civ added, and whenever you add a civ it unbalance everything you've done so far. But it's true that when i played them that it was way too easy to conquer Burma, Vietnam and Khmer in a surprise coup. It won't hurt to reduce their starting units.
-Whenever Black Whole released a new version, the Tocharians where the first civ i played. I came up with their UHVs and UP, and i always felt responsible for them to assure that they are fun to play:lol: But since i'm the king i never played them... That's actually a nice job for the weekend for me.
I always felt that using either 'Tocharians' or 'Yuezhi' is more caused politically than anything else. Since the Yuezhi is used for the people with european appearance in the Tarim Basin, while the Tocharians describes the rulers of Kushana it would be more correct to call them Yuezhi, but i don't like the term because it implies a chinese decent :think: I like to believe them belonging to the same civilization, so think of the current civilization as representing both.
<german>Danke fürs Feedback, das ist immer hilfreich. Ich hoffe du hattest wenigstens ein bisschen Spaß beim Spielen;)</german>

merijn_v1

Sep 22, 2011, 02:25 PM

Some civs start at war with each other (Indo-Greeks and Maurya, Han and Vietnam etc.). I never looked at the code, but after countless games it seems to me that it's deterministic rather than random. I usually don't like determinism, but Indo-Greeks not at war with Maurya would end up pretty stupid.

I know some civs start at war with eachother. But in a game as the Vietnamese, I started at war with EVERY civ I met.

Tigranes

Sep 23, 2011, 08:37 AM

Yes, I second this observation. Loaded the Han game and was at war with Vietnam even before I met them.

Black Hawk 4701

Sep 23, 2011, 12:37 PM

-I spotted the Sri Vijaya bug which is caused by an accidental strange stability maps declaration (i swear that it's not my fault). You may see that some spots in the ocean are stable I'm thought i had included a fix in the patch, not sure though.

I like playing as the Sri Vijaya very much, so here's to hoping the bug gets fixed in the next release(or it's just bugged for me).

-Siam is the latest civ added, and whenever you add a civ it unbalance everything you've done so far. But it's true that when i played them that it was way too easy to conquer Burma, Vietnam and Khmer in a surprise coup. It won't hurt to reduce their starting units.

You could reduce their units a little, but I wasn't meaning to say i hated their spawning. Besides I have a way to handle spawning civs in my territory. (involves putting an empty city on their spawn, and invading it to get rid of them. Is that cheating:mischief:?)

-Whenever Black Whole released a new version, the Tocharians where the first civ i played. I came up with their UHVs and UP, and i always felt responsible for them to assure that they are fun to play But since i'm the king i never played them... That's actually a nice job for the weekend for me.
Tocharians are my one of my favorites as well, and having some barbs killing me ups the challenge, which is good.
Anyways, good work continuing this mod.
Ich bin American, ich wohne im Deutschland abe ich spreche Deutsch ambischen.

civ-addicted

Sep 24, 2011, 10:23 AM

I know some civs start at war with eachother. But in a game as the Vietnamese, I started at war with EVERY civ I met.

Yes, I second this observation. Loaded the Han game and was at war with Vietnam even before I met them.

So, instead of a "Hello, nice to meet you", there's an declaration of war? When i played the Tocharians and conquered Balasagun, Bilge declared war an me the turn after we signed a peace treaty, i think the two might be related.

Ich bin American, ich wohne im Deutschland abe ich spreche Deutsch ambischen."ambischen"? Excellent. Made me laugh pretty badly:lol:You could reduce their units a little, but I wasn't meaning to say i hated their spawning. Besides I have a way to handle spawning civs in my territory. (involves putting an empty city on their spawn, and invading it to get rid of them. Is that cheating:mischief:?)Yes, sir, i believe this is correct. :nono: Don't make me code something so you lose when you try it the next time;)

AdrienIer

Sep 24, 2011, 10:53 AM

During the loading of the Sri Vijayan I had a "do you want to take control of the Khmer civilization" popup... It didn't really do anything (the autoturns even continued normally) but I thought I'd mention it.

Black Hawk 4701

Sep 24, 2011, 11:41 AM

Baron03

Sep 24, 2011, 02:57 PM

I was playing as the Han and after I claimed the Mandate of Heaven (5 turns after my start) I wanted to expand china from 4 cities to something to help fill up china; but by the time I settled the 6th city my units were on strike and I couldn't defend my borders from barbarians so I just gave up. Can you make the Mandate of heaven decrease the maintenance cost of cities?

EoJl

Sep 25, 2011, 03:05 AM

Baron03

Sep 25, 2011, 06:32 AM

There's a similar thing with the gokturks too. I have only 4 cities and my research rate is already down to 20%

merijn_v1

Sep 25, 2011, 09:47 AM

There is a bug with the diplomacy (only with Hongwu, Ming). I got a CTD when I open the trading table. (I didn't have any problem when he wanted to trade worldmaps with me)
There is also another bug in my savegame. (Just skip turn, then I have a CTD)

How long do you think it will take to add the SVN? I already prepared some things I for the mod. I can't wait to include it.

civ-addicted

Sep 25, 2011, 10:35 AM

I just tried Siam, and I love em, civ-addicted I take nerfing them back. Taking over all of SE Asia is harder than I thought, I took over Khmer, Vietnam, Nanzhao, and Birman cities, but I forgot all about Sri Vijayan cities in Malaysia. I've decided to test all of the SE Asian civs now so I'm off to try out Burma. Also a strange bug caused me to crash when i try to enter diplomacy with the Ming, I tested it twice both times crashing my game. Once again I love Siam.Thanks:D Just play and let the feedback rollI was playing as Qin and I also had this bag. In ~220BC I failed my 2nd and 3d UHV (how can fail 3d Qin UHV?) and all my units disappeared.Yeah, don't try Qin with the current patch. That was a terrible mistake in the code (a literal facepalm at me:blush:)I was playing as the Han and after I claimed the Mandate of Heaven (5 turns after my start) I wanted to expand china from 4 cities to something to help fill up china; but by the time I settled the 6th city my units were on strike and I couldn't defend my borders from barbarians so I just gave up. Can you make the Mandate of heaven decrease the maintenance cost of cities?Umm, sorry, but no. I rather have to do the opposite, because the AI Han is always overpowered.
You shouldn't expand too fast after all. Han does looks good with 5 cities for the start, and if you adopt Confucianism (which decreases city upkeep) and build some Magistrates, you're usually up too 70% science and can start to increase your empire. But it seems to me that especially Confucianism needs a fix since it's pretty overpowered.There's a similar thing with the gokturks too. I have only 4 cities and my research rate is already down to 20%That on the other hand deserves a fix. They need a big empire fast. I'll try not to overdo it though, since keeping a way overstretched empire alive is one of their challenges.During the loading of the Sri Vijayan I had a "do you want to take control of the Khmer civilization" popup... It didn't really do anything (the autoturns even continued normally) but I thought I'd mention it.There is a bug with the diplomacy (only with Hongwu, Ming). I got a CTD when I open the trading table. (I didn't have any problem when he wanted to trade worldmaps with me)
There is also another bug in my savegame. (Just skip turn, then I have a CTD)Thanks, i'll look at it.How long do you think it will take to add the SVN? I already prepared some things I for the mod. I can't wait to include it.I prepared a folder, practically all i need to do now is connect it to the internet (at least i hope so). Sometimes i'm too shy at that matter...
Can't wait to see what you got for me:drool:

civ-addicted

Sep 25, 2011, 02:33 PM

https://rfca-unm.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/rfca-unm/

I got...something.
This is the svn repository, but at the moment it just has v0.8.1, so no change to what you already know. I did a lot this weekend, but as the idiot that i am i didn't made it to upload it (it's because i'm working on two computers and the one with the changes isn't available until tomorrow evening)

Asaf and Linkman deserve the credits.

Mouthwash

Sep 26, 2011, 03:29 AM

I can't download, it just says "Cancelled."

civ-addicted

Sep 26, 2011, 04:31 AM

First i tried to download it at the university, and it didn't work. Some minutes later it worked on my laptop, and now it works on the university's computer again. I guess it was a problem on the Gamefront server.
If it still doesn't work, i can try to upload it to another site, if you know one.

merijn_v1

Sep 26, 2011, 08:39 AM

I downloaded the mod with SVN, but I only got some unrelated empty folders.

civ-addicted

Sep 26, 2011, 12:00 PM

Please tell me that you got something like this:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=302830&stc=1&d=1317059830

Linkman226

Sep 26, 2011, 03:47 PM

Hmmm, having a bad SVN day?

civ-addicted, if those are your folders, there should be a green check mark under each folder, or it isn't synced.

civ-addicted

Sep 27, 2011, 05:14 AM

Well, sort of a bad day.

I uploaded the repository (all files are accesible through the repo-browser), so i tried it again, and now i got this:
http://sourceforge.net/p/rfca-unm/code1/2/tree/
It shows in the "code"-section of the sourceforge, which is a good thing, i guess. But there are still directories and files that don't need to be in a mod folder. I don't see any green marks either. In which folder do they need to be?

merijn_v1

Sep 27, 2011, 08:32 AM

Please tell me that you got something like this:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=302830&stc=1&d=1317059830

Yes, I do get those folders. But RFCEurope has the assets, CvGameCore and other folders there. I'm not sure if it works the way you have it.

Linkman226

Sep 27, 2011, 10:18 AM

Merjin's setup looks right with the check marks. But unless you edited the files there should be no red exclamation mark.

merijn_v1

Sep 27, 2011, 10:39 AM

Merjin's setup looks right with the check marks. But unless you edited the files there should be no red exclamation mark.

Yes, but this is from RFCEurope, not RFCA. I know what those red ! are. (I just didn't uploaded them)

civ-addicted

Sep 27, 2011, 12:12 PM

With the new SVN which appears in sourceforge i think i'm almost done:mischief: I always used 'Tortoise SVN/Export...' instead of 'SVN Checkout...', but now i even have those green marks.
What strikes me still are the files and folders that are supposed to be in the repository folder. (I'm looking at the other mod's SVN to see how it's supposed to look like)

On a note more related to the actual mod: Who thinks the main menu deserves another music?

River guard

Sep 28, 2011, 07:46 AM

Wow, this mod is truely fantastic, i have reinstalled civ 4 just to play this :lol:

Btw is it possible to change the flag for zhou and the leaderhead for hongwu(ming)?

Maybe even the original civ 4 dragon flag for china is better than the current zhou flag(i believe its the flag for yan state of warring state periode), and zhou empire isnt on list of the civilizations in civilopedia? Although there its description can be backtracked through the list of leaders(Wu of Zhou) in civilopedia.

And the leaderhead for Hongwu of Ming just looks so strange from every perspectives, maybe leaderhead of chairman mao can be used instead as yongle emperor of ming or something, at least the background of beijing forbidden city would be suitable, although chaiman mao would probably need new cloth (and Hair) and so on...

Leoreth

Sep 28, 2011, 09:09 AM

Welcome to the boards (or active posting, respectively :D)!

Yeah, the problem is that there aren't many Chinese leaderheads available at the database (although there is a Zhu Di LH, but it doesn't work properly). Maybe one of the resident LH makers can be made to fix it ...

Linkman226

Sep 28, 2011, 10:00 AM

Sadly the resident LH makers are disappearing :(

civ-addicted

Sep 28, 2011, 01:41 PM

Wow, this mod is truely fantastic, i have reinstalled civ 4 just to play this :lol:
Welcome!:beer:
Thanks:D That kind of plaudit is why the modders make their creations public;)
Btw is it possible to change the flag for zhou and the leaderhead for hongwu(ming)?
Sure, i was always the biggest opposition from making the old Bilge to Hongwu. The current Bilge gives the Göktürks a mongol-ish touch which i don't really like. My plan was to make Sejong (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11237) into Hongwu, with some reskinning and especially another animation.
Unfortunatly, i don't know how the oracel bone/seal script version of 周 looks like, that's somewhat the only thing i need to know to make the Zhou flag (i'm just saying this because i hope you know that:mischief:). Until then, this might do it:
http://www.handedict.de/zi/images/hanzi/li/small/%E5%91%A8_li.pngMaybe even the original civ 4 dragon flag for china is better than the current zhou flag(i believe its the flag for yan state of warring state periode), and zhou empire isnt on list of the civilizations in civilopedia? Although there its description can be backtracked through the list of leaders(Wu of Zhou) in civilopedia.Zhou should be accessible, but the Indo-Greeks aren't. Regard this as fixed in the next patchWelcome to the boards (or active posting, respectively :D)!

Yeah, the problem is that there aren't many Chinese leaderheads available at the database (although there is a Zhu Di LH, but it doesn't work properly). Maybe one of the resident LH makers can be made to fix it ...

Sadly the resident LH makers are disappearing :(It's funny that you say that, because i'm working on a LH right now (Menander for the Indo-Greeks). All i need to do now to test him is the nifswap which for some reason refuses to work; it's been too long since i made Gaozong:)

River guard

Sep 28, 2011, 02:03 PM

Okay I might know how to find out about the 周 in ancient chinese script, lets try out if you can open this link;

http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E5%91%A8

btw hopefully Qin empire will get some fixing soon.

civ-addicted

Sep 28, 2011, 02:06 PM

Great! That's what i wanted.
I think you deserve to decide what version should to be the flag:)

Qin is about to be fixed. I try to upload the latest changes to SVN asap (fixed Qin included) and publish a patch this weekend.

Leoreth

Sep 28, 2011, 02:17 PM

I second using Sejong as Hongwu. It's one hundred times better than Bilge.

River guard

Sep 28, 2011, 02:19 PM

Great! That's what i wanted.
I think you deserve to decide what version should to be the flag:)

Wow, This is such an honor! But I am not really good at making choices (bad taste and all) :D

Although oracle and bronze characters would probably make more sense they are just not that great to look at in my opinion, seal script version in the same fasion as the warring state period Qin flag would probably be better. I am not sure, maybe 302989 or 302990?

civ-addicted

Sep 28, 2011, 02:45 PM

I tried it with the second one:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=302991&stc=1&d=1317242641What do you think?

I second using Sejong as Hongwu. It's one hundred times better than Bilge.Okay, i'll use him until i can pimp him up;)

merijn_v1

Sep 28, 2011, 02:50 PM

It looks nice.

River guard

Sep 28, 2011, 03:13 PM

I tried it with the second one:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=302991&stc=1&d=1317242641What do you think?

Its perfect :goodjob:

River guard

Sep 28, 2011, 04:01 PM

Civciv5

Sep 29, 2011, 10:08 AM

Yeah, the problem is that there aren't many Chinese leaderheads available at the database (although there is a Zhu Di LH, but it doesn't work properly). Maybe one of the resident LH makers can be made to fix it ...
I wanted to add that LH to my mod,but I can't because it doesn't work!
I agree that someone should fix it.

civ-addicted

Sep 29, 2011, 11:39 AM

hmmm, I was searching for leaderheads within chinese civ4 community and it was kinda disappointing as they seems to have died out... the only stuff was a black clothed qin shihuang(?)
[...]
If the file is real it would certainly make better appearance for the qin empire than the old one, as the first emperor was well known for dressing in black and with crown(which the original leaderhead lacks).
[...]
maybe the orginal qin shi huang leaderhead could also be modified as Ming leader...:confused:

I just recognized him from a Colonization mod, and totally forgot about him. I always liked the old Qin Shi Huangdi, but that one remembers me of a documentation i once watched about him. I never thought of that thing on his head as a crown though:mischief:
I have to fix him though because the background is at the wrong place.

Sejong is the new Hongwu, so no need to worry about that anymore. Well, unless you count reskinning him, too.

I wanted to add that LH to my mod,but I can't because it doesn't work!
I agree that someone should fix it.
Sorry, but not me. I think that i have all chinese LH that i need. Nice try nevertheless;)

River guard

Sep 29, 2011, 12:11 PM

Leoreth

Sep 29, 2011, 12:27 PM

Nice try nevertheless;)
Hehe :D

merijn_v1

Sep 29, 2011, 12:37 PM

civ-addicted

Sep 29, 2011, 01:54 PM

Btw is it possible to make restriction for some world wonders in connection to religion?
Tried some games as japanese and its always frustrating to see koreans building japanese wonders 2 or 3 rounds after I spawn :(
(maybe only allow cities with shinto religion to build japanese wonders ???)

It is possible, and almost every wonder already has a religion restriction. I'm really not into the idea to restrict it even more.
Wang Kon will be weaker in future versions anyway, especially less of a wonder-horder.

SVN is looking better every day:) One problem though: when i try to import the folder, at the end there's an error saying that PublicMaps already exists:confused:. The way i see it overwriting the old files the whole point of SVN... Can i prevent that in some way?

Leoreth

Sep 29, 2011, 02:15 PM

Never had that happen ... do I understand you right that there's already a PublicMaps folder in your repository and you want to import another one?

You should probably update the repository again, then delete the old version of PublicMaps, then commit the whole folder and the commit dialogue should show the old folder as missing. You should check that entry so the folder gets removed during committing. Then copy in and add the new folder.

2phunkey4u

Sep 30, 2011, 04:36 PM

Han UHV 1 (10 Conf. buildings) didn't trigger for me by 500 AD.

merijn_v1

Oct 01, 2011, 03:58 AM

Han UHV 1 (10 Conf. buildings) didn't trigger for me by 500 AD.

Do you have a savegame a few turns before 500AD? It would help very much.

NOTE: Their UB doesn't count as a confucian building

2phunkey4u

Oct 01, 2011, 08:29 AM

Oh, that's it, then. Sorry.

merijn_v1

Oct 01, 2011, 09:32 AM

merijn_v1

Oct 01, 2011, 11:20 AM

After playing some more, I discovered the following:
- The UHV didn't trigger at all. I know I didn't manage the goal, but the Victory screen didn't say "NO" to the UHV. Instead it still said "Not yet".
- It's nearly impossible to get the first 2 UHV. For the 1st UHV (get 10 Confucian buildings), you don't have time to get enough cities to build the buildings. (I'm quite an expansionist, and I still didn't get enough cities.) And to get to Literature (which allows another Confucian building) takes too much time too. And even when you go directly for it, you haven't enough time to build the academy, because it's quite expensive. So I suggest the following: Build 15 Confucian buildings (But their UB count as well) I also didn't managed to get this (I had 13 buildings this way), but if I played a little different (build the UB instead of other buildings when I found/conquer a city), I would have done it. But this will then still be one of the more difficult UHV of the game.
- The 2nd UHV depends too much on luck. It isn't hard to spread Confucianism into the foreign cities (although Japan can be quite hard), but the chance the civs will convert isn't very big. The reason why they don't convert is the Shamanism civic, which prevents them to have a state religion. And it's not possible to ask the civs to switch to an other civic. (You haven't enough time to please the civs enough, you just get "I don't like you enough" when you ask the civ to switch their civics.) Vietnam even didn't have the right techs to do so. So they could even have a state religion. Moving the UHV to a later date would solve it.

BTW, the music module you uploaded on sourceforge seems broken. When I try to unzip it, it says the file is broken.

civ-addicted

Oct 01, 2011, 04:14 PM

I also started a game as the Han. I found 2 strange things:
1. Qin didn't have any units. I could easily ran into their cities.
2. When I captured one of their cities, the Palace move from my capital to the new conquered city. (maybe a bug in the UP?)

I think Nr 1 is the aftermath of the Qin bug, which should be fixed now.
Nr 2 is intended, i just didn't announced it. Qin, Han and Tang all had their capital at Xi'an, so it's historically correct. But as you propably know me, that can't be the sole reason: the AI always puts a lot of emphasis on their capital, and a well developed Xi'an is better than a well developed Tianshui/Hanzhong/Taiyuan. The same goes for AI Jurchen and Mongols, who are moving their capital to Beijing on conquest, but that's for the MoH mechanic.After playing some more, I discovered the following:
- The UHV didn't trigger at all. I know I didn't manage the goal, but the Victory screen didn't say "NO" to the UHV. Instead it still said "Not yet".Ok, i'll fix that. Thanks.- It's nearly impossible to get the first 2 UHV. For the 1st UHV (get 10 Confucian buildings), you don't have time to get enough cities to build the buildings. (I'm quite an expansionist, and I still didn't get enough cities.) And to get to Literature (which allows another Confucian building) takes too much time too. And even when you go directly for it, you haven't enough time to build the academy, because it's quite expensive. So I suggest the following: Build 15 Confucian buildings (But their UB count as well) I also didn't managed to get this (I had 13 buildings this way), but if I played a little different (build the UB instead of other buildings when I found/conquer a city), I would have done it. But this will then still be one of the more difficult UHV of the game.I think the deriveTech method causes this. You need Qin to pick techs you need, and sometimes you're farther away from Literature. It's not impossible, you just need to rely on the AI...
- The 2nd UHV depends too much on luck. It isn't hard to spread Confucianism into the foreign cities (although Japan can be quite hard), but the chance the civs will convert isn't very big. The reason why they don't convert is the Shamanism civic, which prevents them to have a state religion. And it's not possible to ask the civs to switch to an other civic. (You haven't enough time to please the civs enough, you just get "I don't like you enough" when you ask the civ to switch their civics.) Vietnam even didn't have the right techs to do so. So they could even have a state religion. Moving the UHV to a later date would solve it.Moving both dates could solve it, or well, make it easier. I'll try it, and i hope that the AI doesn't manage to build enough buildings...
It's hard to decide whether a UHV is challenging or a pain in the butt, though:mischief:BTW, the music module you uploaded on sourceforge seems broken. When I try to unzip it, it says the file is broken.Honestly, i just accidentally uploaded it because i wanted to test that:blush: That's why i didn't announce it. I'm about to test how it is in the game, and i found out that i love chinese music but can't stand indian music for long (which is a problem because a lot of civs are a long time in Buddhist Era). That might be personal taste, but as soon as someone says the indian music is annoying, i will rework the whole thing.
I have a long weekend thanks to the german national holiday, so i'm trying to release the new patch on Monday. After some little additions i'm quite confident that the next release will be at the end of October and it will finally be a beta.

merijn_v1

Oct 02, 2011, 04:34 AM

Continueing the game, the Tang spawned. I give them one of my cities (I didn't want war) and a few turns later (in 650 AD), all of my cities flipped to them and I was defeated.

River guard

Oct 02, 2011, 07:50 AM

Continueing the game, the Tang spawned. I give them one of my cities (I didn't want war) and a few turns later (in 650 AD), all of my cities flipped to them and I was defeated.

;) According to Chinese tradition there can be no real peace for a battle over mandante of heaven, either you offer everything and surrender or fight to the death. They have to unite all the lands under heaven to prove themself as the legitimate successor of the empire. And indeed the common folk would easily "flip" to those who appear to be stronger or more legitimate in claiming the mandante of heaven. (usually the new dynasty than some "old bones")

Seriously though such forced cities fliping might make the game unplayable for human players, is it possible to allow human players keep their largest 2 -3 cities in such cases? Or at least the capital in which case i believe in classic RFC game will never flip as long as its controlled by human players, of course its okay for AI players automatically lose every cities in such cases which is how it should be.

I havent played much chinese states(still waiting for Qin fix) so far havent see any issue with flipping, however when I played RFC when the collapsing of my empire is close usually i would disband most of my troops save the few best and fall back to some of my cities which i am certain it wont flip(usually only the capital), then waiting for the inevitable and begin a long battle to reconquor all my cities one by one.

civ-addicted

Oct 02, 2011, 09:04 AM

That's part of the civil war concept. If another chinese civ spawns, after some turns the two civs get compared. Fist of all, if one civ has below -10 stability, it automatically collapses. If both civs have over -10 stability, a value consisting of the stability itself and, but just for the human player, the amount of army. The one with the lower value collapses. If the new one collapses, its cities going independant, if the old one collapses, the unimportant cities gets destroyed(low culture, far away from capital, no holy city etc.), the rest will be handed over to the new civ after some rebalacing.
I'll write that guide to the front page:)
Seriously though such forced cities fliping might make the game unplayable for human players, is it possible to allow human players keep their largest 2 -3 cities in such cases? Or at least the capital in which case i believe in classic RFC game will never flip as long as its controlled by human players, of course its okay for AI players automatically lose every cities in such cases which is how it should be.:lol:I never thought of anything but winning this civil war.
A straight defeat isn't what i want. Keeping the capital is fair, but if i find the code to take control of a foreign civ after a collapse i'll use that.

btw, the music module should work now.

merijn_v1

Oct 02, 2011, 09:09 AM

I had the feeling it was a feature. But it's quite anoying for the human player, because the game ends. I think there should be an exception to the rule, when one of the already existing chinese civs is the human player.

Baron03

Oct 02, 2011, 01:19 PM

River guard

Oct 02, 2011, 01:27 PM

Baron03

Oct 02, 2011, 01:45 PM

I would suggest to add +50% income to mandant of heaven palace to reflect the aspect of central bureaucracy in chinese imperial system, although apparantly even that wouldnt be enough to make late dynasty (tang, sung or ming) playable as relatively large states, currently make china a large empire is "quite" difficult.

The song as AI get up to 9 cities, that's the highest I have seen
That's modest as a start, but I don't know how financially they were in the hole

merijn_v1

Oct 02, 2011, 01:49 PM

I would suggest to add +50% income to mandant of heaven palace to reflect the aspect of central bureaucracy in chinese imperial system, although apparantly even that wouldnt be enough to make late dynasty (tang, sung or ming) playable as relatively large states, currently make china a large empire is "quite" difficult.

I disagree. IMO, the Emperors Residence is way too powerful.

And to be honest, I don't think that it's difficult to build a large empire in this mod. (It much more difficult to do it in SoI and RFCE) Stability is no problem in this mod (but IIRC, the stability module isn't realy fine tuned now) and the my economy isn't a problem either.

Baron03

Oct 02, 2011, 02:57 PM

Or maybe a few independent cities could be added in china to fill in a few gaps? Each one could act as a feudatory for the player with the MoH.

civ-addicted

Oct 03, 2011, 06:06 AM

I still think the maintenance is a little high, I played as the Tang and when I claimed the MoH, I only owned 5 cities (city ruins were everywhere) and I'm down to 20% research rate even with magistrates in 4 cities. Will the dynasties always be low on their research rate with only about 5-7 cities?The song as AI get up to 9 cities, that's the highest I have seen
That's modest as a start, but I don't know how financially they were in the holeAs i played the Tang some days ago, i had exactly what you said: When all the cities flip to you, you have to go 0% science and still have negative income. But later ingame you can easily get 10+ cities and 70% science. Same goes for Song, and regarding that Song (not so sure about Tang) needs science-related UHVs it feels strange to want a high science rate while needing to stay alive...
That's what i wanted to do to fix it:
- The chinese player, both AI or human, is crippled at start but overpowered later. Reducing city upkeep but increasing inflation. That could be done today, but i don't want to publish a unbalanced patch (the opposite is the point of a patch:))
- Less city flips. As soon as the old dynasty collapses, you have ~6 cities as Tang, and ~10 cities as Song, and that skyrockets city upkeep and inflation (a neat mechanic from vanilla CIV to forbid Infinite City Sprawl). If you would get 3 or 4 cities, it would work pretty well still. Once again, i fear that this will take longer than one day to balance out.
- A popup where you can decide whether you want a city to flip to you, become/stay independent or getting disbanded. Not only China would profit from that, but that's more like something for the beta.Or maybe a few independent cities could be added in china to fill in a few gaps? Each one could act as a feudatory for the player with the MoH.The whole point of the chinese Emperors are to unite China under one rule, otherwise you'd have a Three Kingdoms-like scenario.And to be honest, I don't think that it's difficult to build a large empire in this mod. (It much more difficult to do it in SoI and RFCE) Stability is no problem in this mod (but IIRC, the stability module isn't realy fine tuned now) and the my economy isn't a problem either.I feel like the solution for all our problems is a higher inflation rate, but i really thought this to be unfair, and plus i really loath that from the political point of view. I'll try that out still...

So, i'll release the patch tonight, whatever its state is (it's good now, trust me;)), but i doubt that i'll manage to do all (or even some) of the things managed above.

Civciv5

Oct 03, 2011, 10:31 AM

Is this a bug?
Khmer spawns at the 7th century AD in case of 802,the year the Khmer Empire was founded.

merijn_v1

Oct 03, 2011, 10:37 AM

It's not a bug. There just spawn then. But I think they should spawn in 790 AD. The pedia text says that the Khmer spawned then.

civ-addicted

Oct 03, 2011, 12:13 PM

I moved their spawn date to 600ish, starting as Chenla. They where there before, in v0.7 they where moved to 802AD (the founding date of Angkor), but that left South East Asia pretty messed up; especially Vietnam came out too powerful.
All i changed was one value, which cause some errors, but in the next patch all should be fine (again:))

civ-addicted

Oct 03, 2011, 12:53 PM

River guard

Oct 03, 2011, 01:23 PM

Alright, the new patch is up.

First i wanted to include my Menander in the patch, so today i finally managed to do the nifswap; but as i saw him ingame i realized that there's a lot of work to do:mischief:http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/2kc92bjend0m4/fv3ad2/menander-i-coin.jpghttp://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=303393&stc=1&d=1317667801

Nice, just took a pick a moment ago and Menander got such a nice armor (strange though), also please dont forget about Hongwu. :whipped:

I will try out qin asap then...

Edit: strange i see you have included sejong files into the patch, why hongwu still got the old leaderhead in my game:confused:

civ-addicted

Oct 03, 2011, 02:25 PM

I just found out that i had the real file is in my vanilla Assets folder the whole time:mad:
Sorry for the inconvinience, the fix is in the attachment; just unzip into Assets/XML/Art

River guard

Oct 03, 2011, 03:38 PM

I just found out that i had the real file is in my vanilla Assets folder the whole time:mad:
Sorry for the inconvinience, the fix is in the attachment; just unzip into Assets/XML/Art

Thx hongwu is fine now, but after the fix the background of qin shi huang is a bit messed up with the red line at the top of the background screen, also there was no problem with the background before the fix though :undecide: ; oh and Menander still got his armor. (But the armor looks fine IMO he can keep it :lol:)

Hongwu is great although hes just a copy of Taizong :lol:, well normally ming emperor would dress in yellow instead of red but if that happens there will be almost no distinction between the two of them beside the background.

Edit: just fixed the qin shi huang background issue by copying the part about qin shi huang from the original CIV4ArtDefines_Leaderhead file and replace it in the new file, I believe open sky great wall is fine.

2phunkey4u

Oct 03, 2011, 03:51 PM

Started a game as Indo-Greeks and lost the 1st goal immediately.

River guard

Oct 03, 2011, 04:38 PM

btw there is one more issue about the art, the zhou flag in civilipodia is still the old one.

Leoreth

Oct 03, 2011, 06:06 PM

Finally I found some time play RFCA (latest patch), and unfortunately (?) I immediately found an error: at the end of the Sri Vijayan autoplay I get "Can't find enum for type tag BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY".

Other than that, I'm amazed by the recent advancements. There's so much new flavor that helps a lot to immerse into the scenario. Also, the autoplay tends to produce quite historical situations which is always a sign that a scenario is on a good way.

Tigranes

Oct 03, 2011, 11:39 PM

Indo-Greeks have 1st UHV broken on the 2nd turn. First turn it says -- Not yet, next turn it says -- NO.

civ-addicted

Oct 04, 2011, 02:12 AM

Started a game as Indo-Greeks and lost the 1st goal immediately.Indo-Greeks have 1st UHV broken on the 2nd turn. First turn it says -- Not yet, next turn it says -- NO.
Seems that i need to fix even more things...:(btw there is one more issue about the art, the zhou flag in civilipodia is still the old one.
That's because the button and the flag are two different files, and it's quite funny how much more work a button tends to be.Finally I found some time play RFCA (latest patch), and unfortunately (?) I immediately found an error: at the end of the Sri Vijayan autoplay I get "Can't find enum for type tag BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY".That's propably related to the Classic Literature event. The random events are untouched so far; but the least i can do is checking for buildings that doesn't exist anymoreOther than that, I'm amazed by the recent advancements. There's so much new flavor that helps a lot to immerse into the scenario. Also, the autoplay tends to produce quite historical situations which is always a sign that a scenario is on a good way.Thanks for the flowers:)

If anyone has an idea for a new random event, just keep 'em coming. I never did that and may turn out to become interesting. As well as the complaints, so you can expect a decent revision for the patch this weekend.;)

2phunkey4u

Oct 04, 2011, 02:33 AM

I applied this LH patch, but now some are switched up. E.g. Chola appears as Khmer leader.

Also:
the first unit I build, the game tells me it's a helicopter unit
Some espionage-related tech gives me the option to build Scotland Yard
AI Indo-Greeks are OP atm. They can outlive the Ghaznavids and be #1 in 1000-1200.
As Viet Nam, I found it impossible to catch up to the Tang in score by 950. I stole all their techs, but they can do everything faster with their huge empire. And I had to keep my military back to fight the Khmer.
Tang UHV2 does not trigger, 1st one triggers "in", not "by"

From that Tang game, I also noted that when Song spawned, they flipped one city from me, but collapsed again shortly after.
Furthermore, I feel the mod would be tremendously improved by a province system similar to SOI or RFCE. There are a lot of territory-related UHVs, but it's annoying trying to find out what areas exactly belong to certain territories (e.g. Jurchen, Siamese)

Leoreth

Oct 04, 2011, 05:23 AM

civ-addicted

Oct 04, 2011, 06:34 AM

Some minor graphics/flavour nitpicks:

- I think I've mentioned this to Black Whole some time ago, and don't quite remember what his answer was, but Vatavelli (the Harappan leader) looks rather Mesopotamian to me. Wouldn't someone like this LH (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14460) look more fitting there? By the way, where did you get that leader's name from?I like the LH, and one can't really tell about the culture of the IVC; i once accidentally watched a documentary about the excavation where they concluded that the Harrapans thought their souls will be trapped in mirrors which they found in graves. To conclude that solely from this artifact sounded stupid in some way to me.
I think since we can't tell about that, we can go with graphics etc that are great and gives them a unique touch than trying to force them into any direction that is speculative anyway.
Asko Parpola partly deciphered the Indus script under the assumption that it's a Dravidian language, and the name Vatavelli is the probable name for a star, which can be used as a given name.- The ships look too large, could you scale them down like RFC does to the vanilla ships?Which ones exactly?- Judging from the Mandate of Heaven announcements, the Chinese dynasties are called "Duchy of Tang" etc. at some point of the game. I haven't seen that while they were alive so I guess it's their "few cities" name, but it still looks odd, because you associate Dukes with Europe. Wouldn't names like "Tang Dynasty" suffice, and then "Tang Empire" when they control a large portion of China?Before Qin Shi Huangdi became Emperor, the early sovereigns are referred to as 公 ('Gong', Duke), so Duchy is fair for them. Tang and Song on the other hand never were a Duchy; i think "Li Family"/"Zhao Family" can also serve as a "few cities" name, which is also their name before they found a city.
I applied this LH patch, but now some are switched up. E.g. Chola appears as Khmer leader.
That happened to me once after i moved Khmer...:think:
Also: the first unit I build, the game tells me it's a helicopter unitcan anyone confirm this? I'm sure i fixed that one. Some espionage-related tech gives me the option to build Scotland YardScotland Yard should be replaced with something that fits Asia and the era. How does SoI or RFCE handle that? AI Indo-Greeks are OP atm. They can outlive the Ghaznavids and be #1 in 1000-1200.That should be fixed soon. They are crippled enough per stability, i think the best to solve this is to make the AI build less defensive buildings and units, so the Hephtalites destroy them soon enough. I don't want them to die every time, though.As Viet Nam, I found it impossible to catch up to the Tang in score by 950. I stole all their techs, but they can do everything faster with their huge empire. And I had to keep my military back to fight the Khmer.I try my best to make the chinese dynasties weaker later on, so Vietnam has a bit of a chance (i did the UHVs a few times though), but one of my goals is to make Vietnam one of the hardest civs to play as.Tang UHV2 does not trigger, 1st one triggers "in", not "by"okay, that's an easy fix. "In" is better imoFrom that Tang game, I also noted that when Song spawned, they flipped one city from me, but collapsed again shortly after.That's again part of the civil war mechanic. If they don't collapse you, their revolution can be considered failed.
Furthermore, I feel the mod would be tremendously improved by a province system similar to SOI or RFCE. There are a lot of territory-related UHVs, but it's annoying trying to find out what areas exactly belong to certain territories (e.g. Jurchen, Siamese)This topic came up already, Black Whole also proposed a map of the provinces; but i'm afraid to tell you that this is not going to happen. Including the province system would set back my whole schedule, and I’m not going to put even more time in it; the little time i have left are for my friends, family and especially my studies.
I hope i don't sound to cranky :old:
I'm working on stability maps though which also contains pointers for the UHVs.

Leoreth

Oct 04, 2011, 06:57 AM

I like the LH, and one can't really tell about the culture of the IVC; i once accidentally watched a documentary about the excavation where they concluded that the Harrapans thought their souls will be trapped in mirrors which they found in graves. To conclude that solely from this artifact sounded stupid in some way to me.
I think since we can't tell about that, we can go with graphics etc that are great and gives them a unique touch than trying to force them into any direction that is speculative anyway.
Asko Parpola partly deciphered the Indus script under the assumption that it's a Dravidian language, and the name Vatavelli is the probable name for a star, which can be used as a given name.
I see.

Which ones exactly?
All of those I encountered, actually ...

(visits the world builder)

Yep, I'd say everything but the work boat and the pirate should be scaled down. The problem with those is that they're almost as large as the tile they occupy, which makes it look as if they touch land when they enter coast tiles (or each other, depending on orientation). I mean, compare the pirate (already RFC resized) with the transport or even the junk, the relations don't fit.

Warship, Caravel and Orang Laut could also probably remain the way they are, depending on how large you envision them compared to other ships.

Before Qin Shi Huangdi became Emperor, the early sovereigns are referred to as 公 ('Gong', Duke), so Duchy is fair for them. Tang and Song on the other hand never were a Duchy; i think "Li Family"/"Zhao Family" can also serve as a "few cities" name, which is also their name before they found a city.
Okay, didn't know that.

Scotland Yard should be replaced with something that fits Asia and the era. How does SoI or RFCE handle that?
Don't remember RFCE right now, but it's called Den of Spies in SoI.

Tigranes

Oct 04, 2011, 07:54 AM

I'm sure i fixed that one.Scotland Yard should be replaced with something that fits Asia and the era. How does SoI or RFCE handle that?

They called Den of Spies and Tower of London.The later one can be built also by Great General -- I like it a lot. I also like SuperSpies module in SoI, it feels that that module will fit Asia even beterr:

The ancient writings of Chinese and Indian military strategists such as Sun-Tzu and Chanakya contain information on deception and subversion. Chanakya's student Chandragupta Maurya, founder of the Maurya Empire in India, made use of assassinations, spies and secret agents, which are described in Chanakya's Arthasastra.

Perhaps Arthasastra could be the fitting name of the Wonder?

Do you need Ideas for missing UHVs, UBs and UPs? For example INdo Greeks are missing UB. Many of those kingdoms are now known because of their coins only, so perhaps Mint could be some good building which increases a wealth and also culture?

P.S. By the way you never fixed the Ming bug :( Remember that unit in Indian Ocean preventing autoplay from running?

Leoreth

Oct 04, 2011, 09:40 AM

I think the Indo-Greeks missing a UB is intentional (they have two UUs instead after all, which I think is a nice feature).

The Song are still missing two goals. Song China was characterized mainly by two aspects: technological advancement and battle against the Jurchen. We already have the former in their first goal, and the second should manifest in either never losing a city or controlling Northern China at some point in the 13th century (i.e. when the real Song were already reduced to the south). Wiki told me that the Song where also first to establish a standing Chinese navy so maybe the third goal should require them to build a certain amount of military ships. That wouldn't be too difficult in itself, but would increase the challenge in the military goal because it would drain resources you need to defend yourself at land.

civ-addicted

Oct 04, 2011, 11:42 AM

They called Den of Spies and Tower of London.The later one can be built also by Great General -- I like it a lot. I also like SuperSpies module in SoI, it feels that that module will fit Asia even beterr:
Perhaps Arthasastra could be the fitting name of the Wonder?
Arthasatra sounds good; let's hope that there's still some indian art floating around...i'll spy at SoI hehe
But unlike Scotland Yard, i think it needs to be a world wonder
The most important thing about SuperSpies is how hard it is to implement.
Do you need Ideas for missing UHVs, UBs and UPs? For example INdo Greeks are missing UB. Many of those kingdoms are now known because of their coins only, so perhaps Mint could be some good building which increases a wealth and also culture? I could use a good name for the Indo-Greek UP; currently it's "Power of Diadochi", but that term is hardly related to them, and not any better than "Power of Gyros"
Tondo/Butuan completly lacks a UP, i thought some :culture: and an extra :traderoute: for every city with at least one embassy, but no idea how to code it. If you'd have an idea that's easier to do i'd gladly use that
I'm thinking about another UHV for Tang instead of the tech related. If we'd have something there, Tang would be playable and yet another problem solved
But i think UUs and UBs are done. Some UUs deserve some better benefits, because at the moment some of them just gets an extra first strike (EDIT: note: i'm planning to make the kobukson the korean UU, so you get to build it and the art of the Hwacha can be used for the bombard)P.S. By the way you never fixed the Ming bug :( Remember that unit in Indian Ocean preventing autoplay from runningIt's not intentional. Once in a while i get an idea how to probaly fix it, but nothing worked out:( I'm really sorry.

The Song are still missing two goals. Song China was characterized mainly by two aspects: technological advancement and battle against the Jurchen. We already have the former in their first goal, and the second should manifest in either never losing a city or controlling Northern China at some point in the 13th century (i.e. when the real Song were already reduced to the south). Wiki told me that the Song where also first to establish a standing Chinese navy so maybe the third goal should require them to build a certain amount of military ships. That wouldn't be too difficult in itself, but would increase the challenge in the military goal because it would drain resources you need to defend yourself at land.That sounds good, so the UB would give at least some benefit:mischief:
So this could become it:
1. Be the first to discover [gunpowder, architecture etc] (just gather techs without any goal like the current one is a bit dull)
2. Build X naval units OR something that requires a large navy, like never allowing a fishing boat to be destroyed or something along those lines
3. Never lose a city to Barbarians, Jurchen or Mongols by 1320 (but we already have that kind of UHV 3 times) OR don't allow any Mongol, Jurchen or Barbarian cities in China in 1320 (maybe a bit too lame)
The exact values need to be verified in a couple of sessions. Poor me...:p

Leoreth

Oct 04, 2011, 12:26 PM

Do you want the Indo-Greek UP to keep its current effect? I don't know how justified it is. We'd have to know that first before we could think about a name :)

On the Song, I think your formulation of the goals is fine. Aggression level of these civs needs to be high enough for that to be a challenge, of course.

Also, in my opinion there should be one Chinese dynasty that needs to make the four great inventions (Compass, Gunpowder, Paper and Printing). Historically it should be either the Song or the Tang, the actual inventions were rather made by the Tang but given the position of most techs in the tree the Song would make more sense (and iirc most of them became only widespread during their rule). I'm not sure about Paper, I think they both start with it so it could be replaced with something else or you leave it at only three techs.

civ-addicted

Oct 04, 2011, 01:02 PM

Do you want the Indo-Greek UP to keep its current effect? I don't know how justified it is. We'd have to know that first before we could think about a name :)Yeah, justification. It seems to me that the greeks had the strange desire to conquer India, and it's kinda funny that as soon Alexander stopped conquering something his Empire started to disolve. Menander also was a big conquerer, for a purpose that's a not that clear to me.
As i reread this, it does sound pretty far-fetched and based on the history knowledge of a 10 year old, but it's the best i could come up with in the last 10 minutes; Maybe you get the basic idea behind this and that it's maybe enough justification for an UP...Also, in my opinion there should be one Chinese dynasty that needs to make the four great inventions (Compass, Gunpowder, Paper and Printing). Historically it should be either the Song or the Tang, the actual inventions were rather made by the Tang but given the position of most techs in the tree the Song would make more sense (and iirc most of them became only widespread during their rule). I'm not sure about Paper, I think they both start with it so it could be replaced with something else or you leave it at only three techs.Goddammit...that's...just...too...good:mad:
http://panzercrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/mind-blown.jpg

Leoreth

Oct 04, 2011, 03:05 PM

2phunkey4u

Oct 04, 2011, 04:15 PM

Chalyuka goal #3 never triggered for me. 1250 and it still says "not yet".

civ-addicted

Oct 05, 2011, 06:09 AM

Well, the +2 stability per conquered city implies a political system that's capable of expansion as long as expansion continues, but collapses as soon as it ends. I'm not sure if there's anything about the Indo-Greeks to justify this.:(
I look into the history again, but i doubt that i will find something equally useful...Chalyuka goal #3 never triggered for me. 1250 and it still says "not yet".*looking at code*
oops. As it turns out there's nothing there:blush: expect that in the revision.
EDIT: more important actually: did you made it and how hard do you think the UHV to be?

Civciv5

Oct 05, 2011, 09:37 AM

Help! I was playing as the Tang Dynasty and in 996 whole my empire collapsed and I losed!

2phunkey4u

Oct 05, 2011, 10:38 AM

Playing as Qin, in 328AD I got a message asking whether I wanted to help my neighbors in their war effort by gifting them DIESEL FOR THEIR TANKS. :D

Nintz

Oct 05, 2011, 10:46 AM

Downloading this mod now.

Looks pretty cool.

Out of curiosity, is Japan represented by only one civ?

They had a lot of governmental changes over the course of their history, and were not really united.

For example: The Gempei War in the mid to late 1100s put one dynasty in control of Japan. This was the beginning of the Kamakura Shogunate.

About 200 years later, the Ashikaga clan seized control.

Another 200 years to by, and we get to the famous "Sengoku Jidai" era.
This is where Tokugawa managed to claim the shogunate.

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but it would be kind of cool to have a couple different Japanese empires.

Nintz

Oct 05, 2011, 10:47 AM

Playing as Qin, in 328AD I got a message asking whether I wanted to help my neighbors in their war effort by gifting them DIESEL FOR THEIR TANKS. :D

:lol:

I suppose this is what happens when you play alpha sowtware!

EDIT: My work boat is apperently considered a "helicopter" unit. (Playing as Indo-Greeks)

civ-addicted

Oct 05, 2011, 12:05 PM

Help! I was playing as the Tang Dynasty and in 996 whole my empire collapsed and I losed!

That's the civil war. Try to stay stable and make sure to have a big army.
Playing as Qin, in 328AD I got a message asking whether I wanted to help my neighbors in their war effort by gifting them DIESEL FOR THEIR TANKS. :DFlying Soviet Tanks for the people!:mwaha:
Yesterday i looked up the events and removed some references to units and buildings that aren't supposed to be there.Downloading this mod now.

Looks pretty cool.

Out of curiosity, is Japan represented by only one civ?

They had a lot of governmental changes over the course of their history, and were not really united.

For example: The Gempei War in the mid to late 1100s put one dynasty in control of Japan. This was the beginning of the Kamakura Shogunate.

About 200 years later, the Ashikaga clan seized control.

Another 200 years to by, and we get to the famous "Sengoku Jidai" era.
This is where Tokugawa managed to claim the shogunate.

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but it would be kind of cool to have a couple different Japanese empires.Welcome!
Japan is just one civ and i'm afraid that there isn't enough room for another one. At the early stage of the modmod there was a little discussion about how to represent Jomon, but it ended up with Utou at the north of Honshu.
Although i'm a big fan of almost everything about Japan, it's a bit more fair to let China play the leading part;):lol:

I suppose this is what happens when you play alpha sowtware!

EDIT: My work boat is apperently considered a "helicopter" unit. (Playing as Indo-Greeks)I'm grinding my teeth because that seem to happen to some people :dubious: i was terribly proud that i thought i found the solution. I can't play atm but that's the first thing i'll look up again when i can

EDIT: I attached the stability maps for the earliest civs. I tried to stick to the classic design of Rhye's wiki, but i'd like to hear the critiques before i continue to make the rest

merijn_v1

Oct 05, 2011, 12:15 PM

That's the civil war. Try to stay stable and make sure to have a big army.

I think it isn't. It's a few turns after the Song spawned. I think he had the same problem as I had in my last Han game. (The
ANewChineseCivSpawnsAndTheOldChineseCivCollapsesTo tallyWhichCompletelyRuinsTheGameAndThereforVeryAnn oying-Problem)

Leoreth

Oct 05, 2011, 01:23 PM

You didn't write a script for creating these maps perchance?

Nintz

Oct 05, 2011, 01:34 PM

The maps don't look bad, but they seem to be very low-pixel.

On Japan-

I suppose Japan isn't quite big enough, although I can think of one way to have "multiple" Japans.

You could script Kyoto to be the capitol for all Japanese nations, and have all new Japans spawn a stack of units, but no settlers, right next to Kyoto.

On Kyoto's capture, Japan would flip to the new owner.

Just an idea for space-confined Japan.

Also...

I'd think you may want to reconsider the Indo-Greek stability map.
Only their capitol city is a core area. The surrounding areas are neutral, but the Harrapan Civilization seems to be instable for my empire.

Overall, they have almost no room to expand due to stability.

merijn_v1

Oct 05, 2011, 01:49 PM

Nintz

Oct 05, 2011, 04:00 PM

I don't think multiple Japans is good, for these reasons:
- To little space. Your solution won't work, because you need a capital. I the army failed to conquer Kyoto, you are defeated. A scripted win isn't nice either. And Kyoto wasn't the capital of all those different civs, wasn't it. (I'm not sure if the last sentence is right)
- You will have to find different UU, UB, UP and UHV for each one. The first 3 aren't very hard, but the last one is difficult, because all 3 UHV need to be done before the new Japanese civ Spawns. (I don't know how much time there is between the spawn of those civs, but if it's translated into turns, it would be around 50-100 turns. It's quite hard to find a nice UHV that can be done in that many turns)
- 1 Civ can represent many dynasties. For instance, Persia in vanilla RFC represent more than just 1 civ. (The Chinese dynasties are a different) I think 1 Japan is good enough.

In the interest of civilized debate, I will defend my position.

1. You say that multiple Japanese dynasties would not be feasible due to the lack of capitol. That is however, the very thing that would make them work. Should a spawned army fail to take Kyoto, the previous shogunate successfully defended its rule. This allows players to defend against the AI. Although, I doubt the AI would have a concentrated army in a single city, which is what makes this work.

Players could always attack another city as their capitol should they forsee Kyoto not falling easily. This would however, not trigger the flip of cities and units.

Also, Kyoto always was the seat of the Shogunate and the Emperor's Palace. It was the defacto capitol after a new clan would take over.

2. UHV- These do not need to be accomplished before the next Japan spawn. In fact, I would say most of them shouldn't be. Your success hinges on being militarily powerful enough to defend your throne.

3. China is indeed different, but they have 7 dynasties featured in the mod. 7! Considering Japan's unusually turbulent political past, I don't see it as a stretch to include 2-3 different Japanese civs.

Also, I don't belive the Persia example is working for you. The Achaenemid dynasty was the initial Persian dynasty, and they historically stayed in power until the 1970s. Yes, the 1970s. That said, I understand your point and realize one civ can cover multiple dynasties. It just seems that one civ on all of Japan for all time is understating the amount of activity that occurred on the island during history.

Leoreth

Oct 05, 2011, 05:00 PM

Also, I don't belive the Persia example is working for you. The Achaenemid dynasty was the initial Persian dynasty, and they historically stayed in power until the 1970s. Yes, the 1970s. That said, I understand your point and realize one civ can cover multiple dynasties. It just seems that one civ on all of Japan for all time is understating the amount of activity that occurred on the island during history.
Sorry, but that's completely wrong. The Achaemenid dynasty ended with the Alexandrian conquests, and its last king, Artaxerxes, didn't even descend from Achaemenes in the main line. The founder of the first Persian dynasty after the Hellenic rule, the Arsakids, wasn't even Persian. The whole connection breaks even further apart when you add in the centuries of Arab, Turkish and Mongol rule of Persia.

2phunkey4u

Oct 05, 2011, 05:16 PM

Tang UHV#2 not triggering for me. Game freezes everytime I make contact with Ming.

Nintz

Oct 05, 2011, 07:32 PM

Sorry, but that's completely wrong. The Achaemenid dynasty ended with the Alexandrian conquests, and its last king, Artaxerxes, didn't even descend from Achaemenes in the main line. The founder of the first Persian dynasty after the Hellenic rule, the Arsakids, wasn't even Persian. The whole connection breaks even further apart when you add in the centuries of Arab, Turkish and Mongol rule of Persia.

True...

Perhaps modern Iranians were descended from that dynasty in a distant way?

I was taught that the dynasty didn't truly go away until very recently, although I did forget about foreign rule. (Although that is rather irrelevant to my original point)

civ-addicted

Oct 06, 2011, 03:12 AM

You didn't write a script for creating these maps perchance?No, it's based on the cityname-excel from Black Whole. I inserted the values from CvRhyes.cpp, colored it by hand, took a screenshot and formatted it to make it look decent. If you want to make something similar with DoC, BenZL made an excellent Excel of the RFC map, which can be used as a base:)
Reconsidering what you said, that would have been a wiser choice to take...I'd think you may want to reconsider the Indo-Greek stability map.
Only their capitol city is a core area. The surrounding areas are neutral, but the Harrapan Civilization seems to be instable for my empire.I moved some capitals and changed Seleucids to the Indo-Greeks, so i will make some minor changes in the stability maps. But i don't think that i will expand it any further than this:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Indo-Greek-territory_revision1.jpgOne point of the Indo-Greeks is the need to expand into unstable territory, like Germany does in RFCTrue...
Perhaps modern Iranians were descended from that dynasty in a distant way?Sure, the people in Iran are descendants from the people in the Achamaenid empire, and that's one reason why they belong to the same civilization. I we want to make 'correct' (or maybe 'correcter') use of the term "civilization", we rather have to merge all Chinese dynasties into one Chinese civilization than splitting up Japan; not to think that Korea, Vietnam and maybe even Cambodia, Göktürks and Chalukya would require the same treatment to make it fair.

merijn_v1

Oct 06, 2011, 04:15 AM

In the interest of civilized debate, I will defend my position.

1. You say that multiple Japanese dynasties would not be feasible due to the lack of capitol. That is however, the very thing that would make them work. Should a spawned army fail to take Kyoto, the previous shogunate successfully defended its rule. This allows players to defend against the AI. Although, I doubt the AI would have a concentrated army in a single city, which is what makes this work.

Players could always attack another city as their capitol should they forsee Kyoto not falling easily. This would however, not trigger the flip of cities and units.

Also, Kyoto always was the seat of the Shogunate and the Emperor's Palace. It was the defacto capitol after a new clan would take over.

2. UHV- These do not need to be accomplished before the next Japan spawn. In fact, I would say most of them shouldn't be. Your success hinges on being militarily powerful enough to defend your throne.

3. China is indeed different, but they have 7 dynasties featured in the mod. 7! Considering Japan's unusually turbulent political past, I don't see it as a stretch to include 2-3 different Japanese civs.

1. If the human player is one of the new Japanese civs and fails, he's doomed.
But you gave me an idea: What if the new dynasty isn't a fully civ, but a barbarian attack. It will kinda represent the new dynasty. When you defeat the new dynasty, everything stays as it is. But when the new dynasty captures your capital and you recapture it, your Dynamic name will change into to the one of the new dynasty (and the LH can also be changed) and the game continues.

3. Too many civs isn't good. It will increase the loading times of the mod and it will increase the size (although I don't realy mind the last)

I also think it's unuseful to include some civs that won't be in the game for about half the times. It will require a lot of code, and it won't even been used in the game in many cases. Then, it can better be represented by a barbarian attack IMO.

2phunkey4u

Oct 06, 2011, 05:22 AM

Tried to start a game as Khmer, autoplay froze with just 1 turn to go.

Leoreth

Oct 06, 2011, 07:40 AM

True...

Perhaps modern Iranians were descended from that dynasty in a distant way?

I was taught that the dynasty didn't truly go away until very recently, although I did forget about foreign rule. (Although that is rather irrelevant to my original point)
Out of curiosity, are you Iranian? Because I know the connection to the Achaemenids is still very important to the Iranian national identity.

Other than that, of course the Iranian/Persian people are still the same, at least under the given circumstances (I could imagine that there was an influx of their conqueror's ethnicities, but don't know enough about that to make an educated statement). So the Persian civilization remained over all these years (even to the point that their foreign dynasties became Persianized). And that's exactly the point merijn was making: different dynasties, same civilization.

That's how it's usually treated in RFC. More detailed mods like RFCA have the opportunity to diversify a little, as done with China and India (although not enough already there for my tastes ;)). But that's only possible if the scenario constraints allow it, and I don't think that's the case for Japan.

strijder20

Oct 06, 2011, 01:37 PM

How are we supposed to hook up timber? Lumbermill seems to be enabled by 'TECH_MYSTERY', which can't be researched.

merijn_v1

Oct 06, 2011, 02:57 PM

Just download the 0.8.2 patch on the first post. This allows you to build camps on Timber and many more features.;)

Tigranes

Oct 06, 2011, 09:09 PM

EDIT: I attached the stability maps for the earliest civs. I tried to stick to the classic design of Rhye's wiki, but i'd like to hear the critiques before i continue to make the rest

Why do we need maps when modders gone so high tech nowadays? :D In game Mouse over function already gives an idea what is red and what is yellow. If you could import SoI's Ctrl-U function -- that would be the map in the game!

By the way, we need to change the spot for Tondo's spawn. Somewhere around present day Manila.

civ-addicted

Oct 07, 2011, 12:30 AM

Why do we need maps when modders gone so high tech nowadays? :D In game Mouse over function already gives an idea what is red and what is yellow. If you could import SoI's Ctrl-U function -- that would be the map in the game!Umm, art anyone? :)
The main purpose of these maps is to clarify the more or less vague requirements for the few civs that have UHVs bound to a certain territory (like the Zhou map).
By the way, we need to change the spot for Tondo's spawn. Somewhere around present day Manila.i thought we were over this debate?
Here's the deal (and please take it as serious as possible, because THIS IS NOT MOCKING): if you give me a LH name, a UP, UHVs, UB, UU (with the extra benefit would be best), i'll make a module to replace Butuan with Tondo. It's relativly little work, end it would finally settle this discussion.

2phunkey4u

Oct 07, 2011, 02:25 AM

Played as Birma, game crashed in 1144 and 1148. Ideas?

Leoreth

Oct 07, 2011, 09:29 AM

I've always thought the Songtsen Gampo LH used here looks a little odd, and today I incidentally stumbled upon this LH (see attachment) used by the History Rewritten mod while datamining for a completely unrelated matter ;)

I also like their choice of UB (also to be seen at that screenshot), by the way.

strijder20

Oct 07, 2011, 11:09 AM

Just download the 0.8.2 patch on the first post. This allows you to build camps on Timber and many more features.;)

Ah, sorry :blush: Should be latest full version before reporting 'bugs'.
But I have an excuse : I was looking forward to the mod that much, I couldn't resist to start playing immediately instead of downloading the patch first :p

Baron03

Oct 07, 2011, 02:59 PM

Played as song and the tang collapsed into a bunch of city states. So I was left with the task of re uniting china

Tigranes

Oct 07, 2011, 08:50 PM

i thought we were over this debate?

:lol: Last time I checked the mod it says Tondo, not Butuan, so I thought you have just renamed it without moving to the right spot. I am fine with Butuan, if our fellow civ players from Philippines are happy as well ;)

2phunkey4u

Oct 07, 2011, 09:49 PM

So I've decided to stop sending playtesting feedback in piecemeal and give you a big one instead.

Harappans: biggest challenge lies in fending off Mauryans and Indo-Greeks with inferior units, all in all well balanced. Barb Nomads never go for cities, only for improvements and stray units, which is a pain bc Shaman Warriors are not strong enough against them. Maybe nerf them to 3str?
Zhou: I failed this one repeatedly (either got raped by Qin or didn't get a GA plus the cities in time) until I realized I had to be very creative.
Found Qi on turn 3 at the coast between wheat and later-to-be copper. had to beeline Taoism and Confucianism bc Harappa takes 'em right away if you don't. Then get caste system and run two artists for a GA, get Bronze for Heavy Footmen just right in time to fend off Qin, in between found two more cities (first Teng to the North, between later-to-be iron and another wheat and fish resource, later Xi to the south.
Qin: No problems here.
Yuezhi/Tocharians: The LH does not seem quite perfect, but I guess there's just no better one around. Anyway, no problems here, either. I had to go to war against Indo-Greeks, Gokturks and Tang (DoW sometime after I built a city near their border). The Hephtalite incursion was a failure. They did absolutely nothing to the Indo-Greeks, but they went after my improvements and workers instead. They never seemed to attack any cities. If you can make the barbs guarantee to take the Samarkand area from the Indo-Greeks, you might reintroduce a time limit to the 3rd UHV to make it more challenging. The city name map seems a bit off. I razed Qomul and refound it later, but the city was given a wrong name.
Indo-Greeks: Canceled due to buggy UHV#1. Should be ok, once fixed, though.
Mauryans: No problems here, either, although it's not been entirely clear what counts as Persia (took Kandahar and got it - but originally I thought I had to go as far as Sogdiana). Not sure if the city names in Persia are all right.
Chola: It's been a while since I played them on an older version. They were ok except I found it annoying that I couldn't raze any cities due to the UP.
Vietnamese: I have yet to win this one on the easiest difficulty. I was able to keep up techwise with Tang due to espionage, but they still outgrew me and I never could cripple them bc I had to keep my military back to keep the Khmer at bay. Guess I've got to try again and again, but I dare say the UHV is already hard and probably unrealistic on higher difficulty levels.
Han: With the new version I inherited a giga-empire off the bat, so the rest was ok. I only converted Vietnam initially. Korea was collapsed (by indies?) and I never reached Japan. Guess I lucked out on the religion spread there. I made the mistake of accepting Khmer as vassals so some other civs were worried about me and wouldn't easily convert.
Korea: Hanyang did not flipped which can be a bugger when sometimes you encounter a stack powerful enough to defeat your starting units. Happened to me twice. Otherwise, I had to tech-rush and build explorers, ships and science facilities. Constant war with Japan meant sinking most of the ships I needed on my doorstep - very convenient. Too bad my nothernmost city flipped to Jurchen. I think the coast of the Sea of Japan should not be included in their core since they came from the inland).
Japanese: The UHV is very innovative, but I'm not sure if it's not bugged. E.g. are indie/barb cities included in the count as well? One time I failed the 1st UHV, reloaded and used WB to place explorers on every city on the map owned by a major civ. Still failed. I think 90% is still too ambitious for the following reasons: a) Explorers are most reliable at scouting, but they can't enter indie territory. If they do, they get killed. That's why you can't reach the farthest places of the map. b) Spies get detected a lot of times, even when they are not standing on a city tile. c) Using espionage points seems the way to go, but it only reveals cities if you've already visited the territory. If a civ founds any new cities, they are not revealed. I think in SoI (maybe due to SuperSpies), this is fixed. Would be good in here, too. On the other hand, I have yet to use the lots of Great Spies I spawn for scouting, although it certainly feels wrong not to use them for teching.
Chalyuka: Canceled due to buggy UHV#3. Theoretically I had it, though.
Gokturks: Impossible with the current Hephtalite failure against Indo-Greeks and Yuezhi. You are dependent on free initial conquests from barbs to get a bigger empire than any Chinese dynasty. Strangely I also failed the scouting UHv even though I had almost every corner on the Asian landmass visited by those sweet Turkic raiders. Their city naming seems completely random.
Khmer: Done on an earlier version. Currently not possible due to crash on the last turn of autoplay.
Tibet: There seems to be a scripted collapse of Maurya on the 2nd turn after autoplay. The 1st UHV is potentially broken. I have attached a save file in which I used WB to cover the entire Tibetan plateau with culture and erased all cities with potential influence into Tibet (Yarkand, Pataliputra, Chengdu). Still failed. The rest shouldn't be a problem. I think the barb Khampa horsemen are unnecessary, though. Or Tibet should start with composite bowmen instead of archers.
Tang: Canceled due to UHV#2 bug. Should be ok, though. Chola might be a competitor for the tech lead.
Sri Vijaya: No problems here.
Nanzhao: The conquest UHV is too easy. You only have to conquer the small core and Vietnam is usually already unstable and so is Tibet due to barb Khampas which they can't defend against in the long run. I suggest changing the UHV to make it either one of those plus Birma (they can be formidable) or all three mandatory. 1300 might be a timer for the religious UHV.
Birma: I did this before on an earlier version without the later spawn of Siam. This time I easily got the 1st UHV (easily ran over Khmer at the start to get 4 good production cities quickly), but my games always crashed 1140ish after meeting the Ghorids. Save file attached.
Song: Civ no complete - no test.
Ghaznavids: No good strategy yet to even all these artists in such a short time. Again, barb Sogdiana for a quick initial grab seems necessary. All this culture-mongering is too one-sided for my taste. You only choke your own cities growth and production after your intial build-up. There should be something different, either conquest- or trade-related. Furthermore, they do not seem to rename some cities properly. In SoI, which I deem very accurate, Ghazna is more eastern than Kandahar and Balkh. Also they should not be called Samanid people initially. The Samanids were no people but a Persion dynasty of nobles which was surpassed by the Ghaznavids. "Afghan people" or "people of Ghazni" would be more appropriate.
Tondo: Seem ok until I meet Ming and my game crahes.
Jurchen/Jin: Where does Northern China end? Does it include North Korea? From my save game, what's missing?
Ghorids: If they start in Delhi and not on the Hindu Kush, they should be called Sultanate of Delhi, but may still start out as "people of Ghor" or "Afghan people", too. I found spreading Islam difficult bc hardly anybody wanted to open borders with me. The game crahed again upon contact with Ming. I also don't like their UP. It should auto-spread Islam to a conquered city, but not remove the existing ones. Looks especially awkward on holy cities.
Mongols: see Song.
Siam: 90 years to conquer everything east of India and south of China? No can do, my friend - not without even more starting units or a road down to Kota Gelanggi. And when I WB'd such a total conquest, I still didn't get the UHV.
Majapahit: After a long time of loading I wanted to rage-quit immediately when almost all my initial naval units got destroyed by Orang Laut on the first turn. And without reign over the sea, I could not colonize any place and the Bugis warriors were useless against Sri Vijayan bowmen. So the Majapahit need to be buffed in their capability to expand quickly. And with all these small islands to colonize, some mouseover info on their names would be helpful. I forgot to mention that I played on until I got into contact with Ming when...
Ming: (edit) Game froze on the first turn of autoplay (467 to go).

Note that I played everything on viceroy to check for playability. I consider myself a slightly-above-average RFC player and if I repeatedly fail at UHVs at this difficulty level, I'd say something's wrong about them.

All in all, I love the Asian setting and the mod has already gone far, though I don't quite see it ready yet for v1.0.

Some more general stuff:

I was able to build embassies of my own civ and of eliminated civs (e.g. Tang).
I had to get used to using populations sacrifice again. I guess most players will be inclined to use it until very late after Agricultural Tools and Water Power. By the way, I love the fact that you can build water mills in forest and jungles. The entire tech tree is a gem.
But map trading should come much earlier.
As I have mentioned, barbs are stupid in general. They should behave more aggressively against civs.
Warfare is somewhat awkward. It's much more difficult to be on the offensive because defensive units are a lot stronger in this mod. Trebs hardly cut it against composite archers and they are useless against bowmen and cannoniers. Bombards come too late to be useful. Atm there is no counter to promoted bowmen, which hampers conquest to much imo. Fighting in SE Asia is even more difficult because defenders get huge bonuses on almost every tile due to all the jungle, which also negates any promotions. Either siege weapons should be stronger or easier to mass-produce, or mid-to-late archery units should be nerfed.
I know I have been spoiled by the high design standards of Sword of Islam and I don't expect every other mod to follow them. Nevertheless I'd like to encourage some nice little things that stem from there: Civ-specific dawn of man texts, UHV progress monitoring in the advisory screen, extended map information for newborn civs, mouseover tooltip info on territory name and stability rating.

Great work all in all. I hope my feedback proves useful.

Civciv5

Oct 08, 2011, 03:20 AM

Mongol Empire has no victory goals,it says something like:"Mongol Victory UHV 1"?

Leoreth

Oct 08, 2011, 04:20 AM

It seems that the barbarians have a problem in this mod (somehow I think the game doesn't treat them as barbarians at all). I suggest you take a look at your "number of civs" constants in Defines.h, because the CvPlayer.isBarbarian() method depends on it and if it returns false, it would explain many issues, including your problem of being at peace with them.

Have you tried to spawn their units with a more sensible unit AI, like UNITAI_CITY_ATTACK?

2phunkey4u

Oct 08, 2011, 07:31 AM

So I did Chola again, too. They're rather easy, but the OB UHV did not check in 1040.
(edit) I'd also like to mention that it was still possible to squat out Birma. As you can see from the save file, I found Pagan 1W. They still flipped the city, but started without units and techs.

Civciv5

Oct 08, 2011, 07:33 AM

Why are there so few ivory resources in South East Asia?There is one in Vietnam and none in Cambodia and Myanmar and one in Thailand!

civ-addicted

Oct 09, 2011, 05:15 AM

Played as Birma, game crashed in 1144 and 1148. Ideas?:think: not at all, frankly. There are those random crashes once in a while which i really don't have any idea about.:(I've always thought the Songtsen Gampo LH used here looks a little odd, and today I incidentally stumbled upon this LH (see attachment) used by the History Rewritten mod while datamining for a completely unrelated matter ;)

I also like their choice of UB (also to be seen at that screenshot), by the way.We always had the Dalai Lama as the Tibetian LH (with glasses though) and v0.7 was the first version the current one, and i don't want to go back to the old. I don't really like the painted-on eyebrows and beard, so i either have to fix the current one, or i'm going to make a Songtsen for myself. The UB is fine imo, and especially useful for the first UHV.Ah, sorry :blush: Should be latest full version before reporting 'bugs'.
But I have an excuse : I was looking forward to the mod that much, I couldn't resist to start playing immediately instead of downloading the patch first :pDon't worry, i see that as a compliment;)Played as song and the tang collapsed into a bunch of city states. So I was left with the task of re uniting chinaI thought it was necessary to exclue Song from the civil war mechanic for balancing issues, but they are in again. Also, i just made UHVs for Song, but i couldn't finish the game because the game froze when i tried to contact one of my neighbours...I don't come to play the late game at all, and that is the first time i saw this.So I've decided to stop sending playtesting feedback in piecemeal and give you a big one instead.

Harappans: biggest challenge lies in fending off Mauryans and Indo-Greeks with inferior units, all in all well balanced. Barb Nomads never go for cities, only for improvements and stray units, which is a pain bc Shaman Warriors are not strong enough against them. Maybe nerf them to 3str?
Zhou: I failed this one repeatedly (either got raped by Qin or didn't get a GA plus the cities in time) until I realized I had to be very creative.
Found Qi on turn 3 at the coast between wheat and later-to-be copper. had to beeline Taoism and Confucianism bc Harappa takes 'em right away if you don't. Then get caste system and run two artists for a GA, get Bronze for Heavy Footmen just right in time to fend off Qin, in between found two more cities (first Teng to the North, between later-to-be iron and another wheat and fish resource, later Xi to the south.
Qin: No problems here.
Yuezhi/Tocharians: The LH does not seem quite perfect, but I guess there's just no better one around. Anyway, no problems here, either. I had to go to war against Indo-Greeks, Gokturks and Tang (DoW sometime after I built a city near their border). The Hephtalite incursion was a failure. They did absolutely nothing to the Indo-Greeks, but they went after my improvements and workers instead. They never seemed to attack any cities. If you can make the barbs guarantee to take the Samarkand area from the Indo-Greeks, you might reintroduce a time limit to the 3rd UHV to make it more challenging. The city name map seems a bit off. I razed Qomul and refound it later, but the city was given a wrong name.
Indo-Greeks: Canceled due to buggy UHV#1. Should be ok, once fixed, though.
Mauryans: No problems here, either, although it's not been entirely clear what counts as Persia (took Kandahar and got it - but originally I thought I had to go as far as Sogdiana). Not sure if the city names in Persia are all right.
Chola: It's been a while since I played them on an older version. They were ok except I found it annoying that I couldn't raze any cities due to the UP.
Vietnamese: I have yet to win this one on the easiest difficulty. I was able to keep up techwise with Tang due to espionage, but they still outgrew me and I never could cripple them bc I had to keep my military back to keep the Khmer at bay. Guess I've got to try again and again, but I dare say the UHV is already hard and probably unrealistic on higher difficulty levels.
Han: With the new version I inherited a giga-empire off the bat, so the rest was ok. I only converted Vietnam initially. Korea was collapsed (by indies?) and I never reached Japan. Guess I lucked out on the religion spread there. I made the mistake of accepting Khmer as vassals so some other civs were worried about me and wouldn't easily convert.
Korea: Hanyang did not flipped which can be a bugger when sometimes you encounter a stack powerful enough to defeat your starting units. Happened to me twice. Otherwise, I had to tech-rush and build explorers, ships and science facilities. Constant war with Japan meant sinking most of the ships I needed on my doorstep - very convenient. Too bad my nothernmost city flipped to Jurchen. I think the coast of the Sea of Japan should not be included in their core since they came from the inland).
Japanese: The UHV is very innovative, but I'm not sure if it's not bugged. E.g. are indie/barb cities included in the count as well? One time I failed the 1st UHV, reloaded and used WB to place explorers on every city on the map owned by a major civ. Still failed. I think 90% is still too ambitious for the following reasons: a) Explorers are most reliable at scouting, but they can't enter indie territory. If they do, they get killed. That's why you can't reach the farthest places of the map. b) Spies get detected a lot of times, even when they are not standing on a city tile. c) Using espionage points seems the way to go, but it only reveals cities if you've already visited the territory. If a civ founds any new cities, they are not revealed. I think in SoI (maybe due to SuperSpies), this is fixed. Would be good in here, too. On the other hand, I have yet to use the lots of Great Spies I spawn for scouting, although it certainly feels wrong not to use them for teching.
Chalyuka: Canceled due to buggy UHV#3. Theoretically I had it, though.
Gokturks: Impossible with the current Hephtalite failure against Indo-Greeks and Yuezhi. You are dependent on free initial conquests from barbs to get a bigger empire than any Chinese dynasty. Strangely I also failed the scouting UHv even though I had almost every corner on the Asian landmass visited by those sweet Turkic raiders. Their city naming seems completely random.
Khmer: Done on an earlier version. Currently not possible due to crash on the last turn of autoplay.
Tibet: There seems to be a scripted collapse of Maurya on the 2nd turn after autoplay. The 1st UHV is potentially broken. I have attached a save file in which I used WB to cover the entire Tibetan plateau with culture and erased all cities with potential influence into Tibet (Yarkand, Pataliputra, Chengdu). Still failed. The rest shouldn't be a problem. I think the barb Khampa horsemen are unnecessary, though. Or Tibet should start with composite bowmen instead of archers.
Tang: Canceled due to UHV#2 bug. Should be ok, though. Chola might be a competitor for the tech lead.
Sri Vijaya: No problems here.
Nanzhao: The conquest UHV is too easy. You only have to conquer the small core and Vietnam is usually already unstable and so is Tibet due to barb Khampas which they can't defend against in the long run. I suggest changing the UHV to make it either one of those plus Birma (they can be formidable) or all three mandatory. 1300 might be a timer for the religious UHV.
Birma: I did this before on an earlier version without the later spawn of Siam. This time I easily got the 1st UHV (easily ran over Khmer at the start to get 4 good production cities quickly), but my games always crashed 1140ish after meeting the Ghorids. Save file attached.
Song: Civ no complete - no test.
Ghaznavids: No good strategy yet to even all these artists in such a short time. Again, barb Sogdiana for a quick initial grab seems necessary. All this culture-mongering is too one-sided for my taste. You only choke your own cities growth and production after your intial build-up. There should be something different, either conquest- or trade-related. Furthermore, they do not seem to rename some cities properly. In SoI, which I deem very accurate, Ghazna is more eastern than Kandahar and Balkh. Also they should not be called Samanid people initially. The Samanids were no people but a Persion dynasty of nobles which was surpassed by the Ghaznavids. "Afghan people" or "people of Ghazni" would be more appropriate.
Tondo: Seem ok until I meet Ming and my game crahes.
Jurchen/Jin: Where does Northern China end? Does it include North Korea? From my save game, what's missing?
Ghorids: If they start in Delhi and not on the Hindu Kush, they should be called Sultanate of Delhi, but may still start out as "people of Ghor" or "Afghan people", too. I found spreading Islam difficult bc hardly anybody wanted to open borders with me. The game crahed again upon contact with Ming. I also don't like their UP. It should auto-spread Islam to a conquered city, but not remove the existing ones. Looks especially awkward on holy cities.
Mongols: see Song.
Siam: 90 years to conquer everything east of India and south of China? No can do, my friend - not without even more starting units or a road down to Kota Gelanggi. And when I WB'd such a total conquest, I still didn't get the UHV.
Majapahit: After a long time of loading I wanted to rage-quit immediately when almost all my initial naval units got destroyed by Orang Laut on the first turn. And without reign over the sea, I could not colonize any place and the Bugis warriors were useless against Sri Vijayan bowmen. So the Majapahit need to be buffed in their capability to expand quickly. And with all these small islands to colonize, some mouseover info on their names would be helpful. I forgot to mention that I played on until I got into contact with Ming when...
Ming: (edit) Game froze on the first turn of autoplay (467 to go).

Note that I played everything on viceroy to check for playability. I consider myself a slightly-above-average RFC player and if I repeatedly fail at UHVs at this difficulty level, I'd say something's wrong about them.

All in all, I love the Asian setting and the mod has already gone far, though I don't quite see it ready yet for v1.0.

Some more general stuff:

I was able to build embassies of my own civ and of eliminated civs (e.g. Tang).
I had to get used to using populations sacrifice again. I guess most players will be inclined to use it until very late after Agricultural Tools and Water Power. By the way, I love the fact that you can build water mills in forest and jungles. The entire tech tree is a gem.
But map trading should come much earlier.
As I have mentioned, barbs are stupid in general. They should behave more aggressively against civs.
Warfare is somewhat awkward. It's much more difficult to be on the offensive because defensive units are a lot stronger in this mod. Trebs hardly cut it against composite archers and they are useless against bowmen and cannoniers. Bombards come too late to be useful. Atm there is no counter to promoted bowmen, which hampers conquest to much imo. Fighting in SE Asia is even more difficult because defenders get huge bonuses on almost every tile due to all the jungle, which also negates any promotions. Either siege weapons should be stronger or easier to mass-produce, or mid-to-late archery units should be nerfed.
I know I have been spoiled by the high design standards of Sword of Islam and I don't expect every other mod to follow them. Nevertheless I'd like to encourage some nice little things that stem from there: Civ-specific dawn of man texts, UHV progress monitoring in the advisory screen, extended map information for newborn civs, mouseover tooltip info on territory name and stability rating.

Great work all in all. I hope my feedback proves useful.:eek: It sure does.
Thanks, that's just great. The barbs are doing somewhat what i want on Monarch, and the few times i played on Viceroy, Harappans for example always survives due to low barb pressure; that's going to be fixed in the Beta.Mongol Empire has no victory goals,it says something like:"Mongol Victory UHV 1"?That's because they don't have any at all. I seen how few work coding UHVs actually is, so that's something that can be done today...It seems that the barbarians have a problem in this mod (somehow I think the game doesn't treat them as barbarians at all). I suggest you take a look at your "number of civs" constants in Defines.h, because the CvPlayer.isBarbarian() method depends on it and if it returns false, it would explain many issues, including your problem of being at peace with them.

Have you tried to spawn their units with a more sensible unit AI, like UNITAI_CITY_ATTACK?Thanks! I'll definitly take a look at it.So I did Chola again, too. They're rather easy, but the OB UHV did not check in 1040.
(edit) I'd also like to mention that it was still possible to squat out Birma. As you can see from the save file, I found Pagan 1W. They still flipped the city, but started without units and techs.Why do you people always try to cheat?:)
Chola will get an overhaul, with a trade-related UHV instead of the current OB UHV, and another UP, like the one from RFC++'s Serbia. I proposed that like a year ago, and i think that Morholt stole my idea:lol: Not sure though, and i don't want to start any rumors...;)Why are there so few ivory resources in South East Asia?There is one in Vietnam and none in Cambodia and Myanmar and one in Thailand!I think there are enough. If you want Ivory really badly, they're giving you a reason to fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYLpYu2EQxg) (i just remember that song:love:), and for those civs that end up controlling all of SE Asia, they would get an unessecary advantage, because Ivory is still as valueable as Iron for trading.

Leoreth

Oct 09, 2011, 05:31 AM

The wrong defines could also be the reason for the current crashes. I suspect you forgot to increase one of them when you added Siam.

2phunkey4u

Oct 09, 2011, 07:34 AM

I honestly did not intend to squat. I just wanted to make sure they would not found Pagan off the coast and flip my city regulary for me to conquer it later.

News: Lucky Sunday! I succeeded with Vietnam. Things went just right for me. I popped two settlers from huts, had Khmer vassalize to me, Buddhism spread early, Han surpassing Tang and I stole all their techs, plus got the free tech wonder. In the end I was about 100 points ahead of Indo-Greeks, followed by Han.

More general feedback:

I feel there are not enough buildings that give specialists (except for spies). University and Academy should definitely give scientists, and currently only Markets give merchants.
There should be scripted spreads of Islam into Persia (which should also get Zoroastrianism), Punjab and Sindh from 800ish on, later into SE Asia and the islands and along the Silk Road into Western China. The Hephtalites should also bring Buddhism into Bactria.
One thing I also like about SoI is the fact that most civs start with a state religion and some civics set. That usually reduces initial anarchy to just 1 turn for some minor adjustments, which is nice. I think 1-2 turn of initial anarchy is ok, but in this mod it's usually 3 - 2 for changing civics and 1 to convert to some religion.
Indies are pretty active in this mod. I've seen them build wonders, scout and sometimes be aggressive towards civs. Is that ok?

merijn_v1

Oct 09, 2011, 11:37 AM

merijn_v1

Oct 09, 2011, 11:49 AM

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10950352#post10950352

Maybe a LH for a leader?

2phunkey4u

Oct 09, 2011, 12:41 PM

I disagree that buildings should add more specialists. I think there are too many. (Especially artist slots) In general, the buildings are to strong.

BTW, the Exchange also gives 2 merchant slots. So the Market isn't the only building that provides merchant slots. ;)

I agree that there are a lot of buildings that give relly huge bonuses, especially to culture and science. I forgot about the exchange, although it comes pretty late. Guess if I want to run a lot of merchants, I stick with the civic that's made for that. You don't seem to disagree on the slots for sciencists, though, do you, Merijn?

Report about Japan:
Au contraire to what I said earlier, UHV#1 is not broken, but really hard to keep track of. UHV#2 and #3 are broken, though. I was way past 60000 esp points in 1330, but I failed that goal. What's even more strange is that I was already at 2/3 with the 5 Islands (Does Honshu itself count?), but got reset to 1/3. See for yourselves. I attached a save.

merijn_v1

Oct 09, 2011, 01:03 PM

I agree that there are a lot of buildings that give relly huge bonuses, especially to culture and science. I forgot about the exchange, although it comes pretty late. Guess if I want to run a lot of merchants, I stick with the civic that's made for that. You don't seem to disagree on the slots for sciencists, though, do you, Merijn?

No, I also think Universities should provide scientist slot. I never understand why it didn't have them in the vanilla game.

2phunkey4u

Oct 09, 2011, 02:25 PM

Got a good start as Göktürks with barb Sogdiana and Yuezhi crippled as desired, so I could use the horsemen for both scouting and conquest and got the 2/3. The game crashed in 1028 1 turn after the collapse of the Indo-Greeks. Note the Ghaznavid SoD en route to China through my territory.

civ-addicted

Oct 09, 2011, 03:15 PM

The wrong defines could also be the reason for the current crashes. I suspect you forgot to increase one of them when you added Siam.I found out that it's not caused by Defines.h because i got an instant crash; but i'm still pretty sure that it's in the DLL. I got a problem that Mongols spawned on turn 1 with 1 :beaker: tech cost each; i switched some defines, and i'm pretty sure that Ming worked before that "fix". I wanted to try to recreate that state but my inner child wanted to make something more fun:sad:
News: Lucky Sunday! I succeeded with Vietnam. Things went just right for me. I popped two settlers from huts, had Khmer vassalize to me, Buddhism spread early, Han surpassing Tang and I stole all their techs, plus got the free tech wonder. In the end I was about 100 points ahead of Indo-Greeks, followed by Han.
You see? Challenge completed:p
A lucky Sunday indeed; i finally made that resurrections work again. And the fix didn't take longer than 5 minutes to find.
It's like i'm finally getting good at this:mischief:
More general feedback:

I feel there are not enough buildings that give specialists (except for spies). University and Academy should definitely give scientists, and currently only Markets give merchants.
There should be scripted spreads of Islam into Persia (which should also get Zoroastrianism), Punjab and Sindh from 800ish on, later into SE Asia and the islands and along the Silk Road into Western China. The Hephtalites should also bring Buddhism into Bactria.
One thing I also like about SoI is the fact that most civs start with a state religion and some civics set. That usually reduces initial anarchy to just 1 turn for some minor adjustments, which is nice. I think 1-2 turn of initial anarchy is ok, but in this mod it's usually 3 - 2 for changing civics and 1 to convert to some religion.
Indies are pretty active in this mod. I've seen them build wonders, scout and sometimes be aggressive towards civs. Is that ok?

- I never saw that problem, because i happen to use Caste System as often as possible. I think some more slots won't hurt though, especially in the early and mid game. I'll try to fit one or two artists and scientists somewhere.
- There is some scripted religion spread: when Camel Archers resp. Rajput Infantry conquer a city, they spread Islam resp. Hinduism while removing everything else. It happens...sometimes. I plan on tuning it a bit so you see more often.
- I wanted to do that, but just for the really late civs. Frankly, i dislike this feature in RFCE and SoI because i feel that the coder thinks i'm not cappable of finding the right solution for myself (that's possibly a personal thing). The anarchy at the start don't hurt too much and still belong to a normal CIV game.
It's often that the late civs don't know what they're doing if it comes to religion, and that is frankly the only point i see in pre-setting civics.
- If you think of the independants as the Kingdom of Ajmer, the Kingdom of Gujarat, Funan, the early Jin and Sui dynasties, it's fair to make them strong and bi*chy.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10950352#post10950352

Maybe a LH for a leader?Looks good, but i'm think we're fine with LHs. I suspect that the LH switch ingame causes some troubles, so i disabled that for now, and since there aren't enough LHs for all civs (which i like), i don't think we need that feature at all.Report about Japan:
Au contraire to what I said earlier, UHV#1 is not broken, but really hard to keep track of. UHV#2 and #3 are broken, though. I was way past 60000 esp points in 1330, but I failed that goal. What's even more strange is that I was already at 2/3 with the 5 Islands (Does Honshu itself count?), but got reset to 1/3. See for yourselves. I attached a save.Thanks, i fixed it. You need 65000 esp points (never updated the text though:blush:), and when you fail, it unchecks UHV no.2No, I also think Universities should provide scientist slot. I never understand why it didn't have them in the vanilla game.That's one good spot to place a scientist slot:)Got a good start as Göktürks with barb Sogdiana and Yuezhi crippled as desired, so I could use the horsemen for both scouting and conquest and got the 2/3. The game crashed in 1028 1 turn after the collapse of the Indo-Greeks. Note the Ghaznavid SoD en route to China through my territory.A collapse? :think: Those semi-random crashes really are getting on my nerves. I know that it was more or less fine before i moved Khmer back, but i can't comprehend what possibly could have caused that.

2phunkey4u

Oct 09, 2011, 04:47 PM

It's often that the late civs don't know what they're doing if it comes to religion, and that is frankly the only point i see in pre-setting civics
Too right mate. More often than not I've seen Buddhist Ghaznavids.

Played through again as Birma. No crashes this time - seems random, indeed.

2phunkey4u

Oct 09, 2011, 04:59 PM

i finally made that resurrections work again.

Uhm, resurrections? What sort of?
Would be great for Korea, Vietnam and Tibet - the latter two collapse to barbs a lot.
Still apt to a lesser extend would be Harappa as Sindh, Chalyuka as Bahmani Sultanate and Chola as Vijayanagara.

We need a couple of Mongols in Northen Hindustan and a Timurid invasion!

Civciv5

Oct 09, 2011, 11:59 PM

Maybe a LH for a leader?
Looks good, but i'm think we're fine with LHs. I suspect that the LH switch ingame causes some troubles, so i disabled that for now, and since there aren't enough LHs for all civs (which i like), i don't think we need that feature at all.
That's my leaderhead! :) But I don't have released it,yet.
Now we are talking about leaderheads,I think some leaders should change in era's example:Korea's leader is Wang Kon,we can change it to early era:Wang Kon,middle era:Seondeok,late are:Sejong.
I don't like that it's always the same leader for a civ,I miss the Rhy's and Fall of Civilization leader change!

2phunkey4u

Oct 10, 2011, 03:18 AM

update on Maurya:
The shrine income UHV seems to be indicated wrongly. In won a game in 320 AD before the spawn of Chalyuka with 10 shrine income instead of the 30 stated in the advisor screen.

civ-addicted

Oct 10, 2011, 03:20 AM

Uhm, resurrections? What sort of?
Would be great for Korea, Vietnam and Tibet - the latter two collapse to barbs a lot.
Still apt to a lesser extend would be Harappa as Sindh, Chalyuka as Bahmani Sultanate and Chola as Vijayanagara.

We need a couple of Mongols in Northen Hindustan and a Timurid invasion!Normal ones, like you know from RFC. You control a core, low stability, PROFIT!
Some civs will get a modified respawn, but the ties needs to be closer than just roughly the same area. Harappans are gone period.
The dynasties won't respawn at all, just Chalukya. China...well, Zhou could respawn (think of Wu Zetian), but that would cause trouble with my current plans in China; Especially ethnic civs, because you can't control a foreign people and think the world is just fine.
This might be it: - Tocharians respawn at Peshawar (Kushana)
- Koreans at Hanseong
- Japan at Edo
- Vietnam at the same spot, but rename the city Thang Long (Dai Viet)
- Birma at Toungoo or Pegu
- Khmer at Phnom Penh
- Siam at Bangkok
- Chalukya at Vengi
- Chola somewhere at Sri Lanka (historically...questionable)
- Jurchen at Mukden
- Göktürks somewhere in the Tarim Basin OR Bukhara (maybe even both, randomized)
- Sri Vijaya at Malakka; with Islam
- Butuan at Manila/Tondo
Nanzhao, Tibet and Mongolia as usualNote that they won't be scripted at all, so i want it to be possible that Kushana spawns in an unstable Delhi Sultanate.
That's my leaderhead! :) But I don't have released it,yet.
Now we are talking about leaderheads,I think some leaders should change in era's example:Korea's leader is Wang Kon,we can change it to early era:Wang Kon,middle era:Seondeok,late are:Sejong.
I don't like that it's always the same leader for a civ,I miss the Rhy's and Fall of Civilization leader change!Congratulations for your LH:pat: If we're lucky, there is going to be another LH creator;)
RFCE and SoI have one big plus: there are plenty of excellent LHs flowing around that can be used. There are some more Chinese LHs, but most of the times they are just more or less reskinned original LHs. I sometimes find it hard to accept that Wu and Genghis, and Wang Kon and Pilouge are practically the same. But they are looking really good, so i'm fine :cool:
Wang Kon just looks too great for me to be replaced with anything, so i don't really want to enforce a system that i would sense as a setback from the artistic point of view. [EDIT:Sweet Mother of Jesus, your Seondeok is gorgeous! :drool: I rethink what i just said]
Still, with the new respawns, i'll try to use new LHs if i could find some; Cybrxkhan's Kanishka is a way better Kushana leader than Sapadbizes:pupdate on Maurya:
The shrine income UHV seems to be indicated wrongly. In won a game in 320 AD before the spawn of Chalyuka with 10 shrine income instead of the 30 stated in the advisor screen.All shrines you own count, even Confucian or Taoist would count if you'd manage to hold them

2phunkey4u

Oct 10, 2011, 06:29 AM

civ-addicted

Oct 10, 2011, 06:54 AM

I do not quite understand. Does the UHV count total religious buildings or cities with religion corresponding to holy shrines you owe? If the latter is the case, the condition is set wrongly bc I got it with just 10 instead of 30 - and of course I did not hold shrines in China.The loop goes through all cities you own and checks whether one of the Shrines is built there. If one is found, it sums up the gold revenue the found Shrine produces. I suspect that you just looked at one Shrine which produced 10 gold, while your other one already produced 20 gold. If that's not the case, i will review the code, because it can be that it is a little clumsy.
I was referring to the Taoist/Confucian Shrine because they would count too (for the sake of completeness), but usually you only hold the Buddhist and Hindu Shrines. The Islamic Shrine would, too, but good luck founding Islam;)

2phunkey4u

Oct 10, 2011, 09:33 AM

I did look. Mahabodi produced 10 gold and Kashi 1 gold (there are not enough cities around in 300 AD for anything better), so it must be the code, right?

Speaking of founding Islam - pedia says it's still tied to Pilgrimage. Would I found it if I researched it before 655 (why not 622 btw)? Do you implement Makkah as a spawn in some remote place on the map that immediately gets razed by bars? That's an ingame message I once got.

civ-addicted

Oct 10, 2011, 10:41 AM

I did look. Mahabodi produced 10 gold and Kashi 1 gold (there are not enough cities around in 300 AD for anything better), so it must be the code, right?I see what you did there:) You refused to found Pataliputra, so you can have Varanasi as the holy city of both Buddhism and Hinduism...
I just looked at the code and found that it's possible to cheat that way, because Varansi is checked twice with two shrines. Thanks for the pointers, i'm already about to fix it.Speaking of founding Islam - pedia says it's still tied to Pilgrimage. Would I found it if I researched it before 655 (why not 622 btw)? Do you implement Makkah as a spawn in some remote place on the map that immediately gets razed by bars? That's an ingame message I once got.It's the wrong date because i thought it's easier to try it with a date that already existed. It's like i didn't thought it to be a permanent feature. But i think it can be fixed.
Yes, you would found Islam. If i think of RFC's India, there should be at least the possibility of founding it. I even considered making founding Islam a UHV requirement for Maurya. But that, well, that would be pushing it.

2phunkey4u

Oct 12, 2011, 06:09 AM

Thanks, i fixed it. You need 65000 esp points (never updated the text though:blush:), and when you fail, it unchecks UHV no.2
Made 70000 - still failure, so it's not just the text, but the code, too, unfortunately.

merijn_v1

Oct 12, 2011, 11:03 AM

As Nanzhao, I can build an embassy for my own civ.

Leoreth

Oct 12, 2011, 11:19 AM

Another indication that there's something wrong with the civ constants in the DLL.

2phunkey4u

Oct 12, 2011, 11:57 AM

The whole embassy thing looks shady atm I'd say from a Butuan game.

Civciv5

Oct 12, 2011, 12:11 PM

(The A NewChineseCivSpawnsAndTheOldChineseCivCollapsesTo tallyWhichCompletelyRuinsTheGameAndThereforVeryAnn oying-Problem)
Can you fix it,it's really annoying.
I tried it numerous times and still,I collapse and lose.

civ-addicted

Oct 12, 2011, 12:53 PM

As Nanzhao, I can build an embassy for my own civ.The whole embassy thing looks shady atm I'd say from a Butuan game.I found out that i didn't move Khmer's embassy when i moved Khmer -___-. So, according to the code, Tibet, Tang, Sri Vijaya, Nanzhao and Khmer should be off at that matter, for everyone else it should be fine.Another indication that there's something wrong with the civ constants in the DLL.Well, all i can say that something's wrong. I really should play with the values to locate the error instead of playtesting (to be honest, i more or less lost the whole sunday because i just played Chola with one new UHV and a new UP)Can you fix it,it's really annoying.
I tried it numerous times and still,I collapse and lose.I changed the code so that the human player keeps at least the capital. The fix was too easy, and i'm somewhat sorry that i didn't already included it

Leoreth

Oct 12, 2011, 01:37 PM

Well, all i can say that something's wrong. I really should play with the values to locate the error instead of playtesting (to be honest, i more or less lost the whole sunday because i just played Chola with one new UHV and a new UP)I changed the code so that the human player keeps at least the capital. The fix was too easy, and i'm somewhat sorry that i didn't already included it
Tell me about it. I lost a whole day trying to gain control over the whole pacific coast when my original goal was only to see how much culture medieval Japan can put out :D But I think this is a good thing, it's always bad when you're the person who plays your own mod least ;)

Anyway, I still suspect this is something that can be solved by simple counting. Or, if you have a version before the addition of Siam lying aroung, comparing the constants between both (I still think the addition of Siam caused this).

civ-addicted

Oct 13, 2011, 04:33 AM

Anyway, I still suspect this is something that can be solved by simple counting. Or, if you have a version before the addition of Siam lying aroung, comparing the constants between both (I still think the addition of Siam caused this).I just found out that Ramkhamhaeng had the wrong number in const.py... I hope that at least those random crashes will stop now. I suspect that those random crashes happened when one of those leaders (it was Kublai in my Song game) tried to contact you.
Ming can hardly be solved by that, i fear.

Civciv5

Oct 13, 2011, 10:27 AM

Every time I try to trade with Hongwu,the game crashes!

merijn_v1

Oct 13, 2011, 11:51 AM

Every time I try to trade with Hongwu,the game crashes!

You're not the only one, I have this problem too. But when he wants OB with me, it won't crash. But when I open the trading table, it does. (also when I want to negotiate about the OB)

Civciv5

Oct 16, 2011, 01:15 AM

Maybe you should add the Bruneian Empire it was a large and powerful empire on Borneo and Mindanao from 600 AD.

civ-addicted

Oct 16, 2011, 02:16 PM

I just read Brunei was much bigger once than today, but their peak was just at the end of the timeline, so they doesn't qualify. They better be represented by an indie city.

As it turns out, after cleaning up the LH switch mechanism, i didn't live through any CTDs in the few games i played :whew: I'm crossing fingers that it stays that way.

Songkok

Oct 17, 2011, 03:47 AM

Would you consider adding the Ainu as an earlier era civ appearing in Japan, Honshu?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

civ-addicted

Oct 17, 2011, 05:01 AM

The Ainu are a great idea. I always liked the civs that didn't do that well in history (Tocharians in here, Makuria in SoI etc.), so it's up to you to turn them into something powerful.
Unfortunately, i'm really close to beta, and yet another civ, including balance it out because it's an early one, would throw back my schedule. I think if we manage to have more of a balanced beta and i'm bored again, i'll release a modmodmod a la RFCE++, adding a whole bunch of more civs. I have even more in mind: Xiongnu, Hephtalites, Pala, Gujarat, Funan, Champa; Brunei could be in too.

The Turk

Oct 23, 2011, 04:05 PM

Wow! :eek:
I remember when RFC Asia first came out, and now a couple years later, I cannot believe the improvement, and I'm sure it will only get better! Good job civ-addicted on this excellent mod, and I'll continue to support this mod into the future! Also would you please consider adding an SVN link, so people, such as myself can keep updated on the work of this mod. It helps others, to help you improve the mod, by seeing what goes on in between stages.

PS. What is the music module? Do I need to download it?

civ-addicted

Oct 24, 2011, 02:55 AM

Wow! :eek:
I remember when RFC Asia first came out, and now a couple years later, I cannot believe the improvement, and I'm sure it will only get better! Good job civ-addicted on this excellent mod, and I'll continue to support this mod into the future! Well, thanks!:D Thinking of SoI, the two years it's alive to be where it is now is a long time...:pAlso would you please consider adding an SVN link, so people, such as myself can keep updated on the work of this mod. It helps others, to help you improve the mod, by seeing what goes on in between stages.There is a SVN link, it's just not up-to-date. The computer i play the game on isn't the same i work on, and it's a bit more complicated to upload revisions.
I think that when the Beta is out the revisions will come more frequently. That is possible next week, but maybe i have to delay it by a week because i reworked the MoH mechanic and it's sort of half baked right now.PS. What is the music module? Do I need to download it?The music module are a list of additional tracks, but you don't need it to play the mod. It's pretty big (i think half the size of the mod itself), so i thought it to be better to have it as an additional download. There is some Asian music in the original download, but it's only 10ish tracks for the whole game.
I'm also about to change it because i can't stand Indian music in such an overdose the music module offers it.

The Turk

Oct 24, 2011, 10:10 AM

Also Civ-Addicted may I recommend creating a user manual (like the one is SoI) for Beta version. Also can you please change the background, to something a little bit nicer to look at. Currently the font and the image are quite bad. I'd recommend a Chinese/Japanese painting and then for the loading screen perhaps a South Asian one (Indian battle or something..)

civ-addicted

Oct 24, 2011, 01:43 PM

It's somewhere in the back of my mind that the main menu needs an overhaul. Feel free to propose a picture and/or a track to play.

Linkman226

Oct 24, 2011, 05:51 PM

This. (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/5/4636651_7f9aa4b557.jpg)

Or this. (http://library.thinkquest.org/13406/images/SILKMAP3.JPG)

The Turk

Oct 24, 2011, 06:48 PM

Here are my suggestions:

Main Background:
This (http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/133223/1/Scene-Depicting-A-Chinese-Imperial-Official-At-Home-Seated-With-His-Wife.jpg)
OR
This (http://www.absolutechinatours.com/UploadFiles/ImageBase/200792123448633.jpg)
OR
This (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Imperiestro-Ŭan-Li.jpg)

Loading Screen Background:
This (http://storage.canalblog.com/58/95/577050/63113156.jpg)
OR
This (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/wp04.jpg)
OR
This (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/MongolArcher.jpg)

@Linkman, your second one is nice, although it shows the rest of the world, that is not included, but I'm not much in favor of your first one...
Also the first one made me realize how cool it would be if you could make RFC Europe, Sword of Islam and RFC Asia into one large mod, that would be AMAZING.....

Also what historical Empire is the Indo-Greek one supposed to represent, as I've never heard of them.. for me its always skipped from Alexander's conquests, to the formation of the Mauryan Empire, right after the Greek collapse. Also can you please reduce/remove the animal barbarians. I can't take this mod seriously, when I'm fighting jaguars, I mean this was never a problem for Kingdoms, if there was a jaguar or lion near their borders. In my opinion the whole barb.py file should be changed so it symbolized ACTUAL historical invasions by different groups that can be characterized as barbarians in this mod, much like how SoI organizes the various barbarian invasions, whether they be Bulgarian barbarians or Turkic Barbarians.

Linkman226

Oct 24, 2011, 06:52 PM

RFC Old World?

But it would have either:

1) 60+ civs

2) The low detail of regular RFC

The Turk

Oct 24, 2011, 06:54 PM

RFC Old World?

But it would have either:

1) 60+ civs

2) The low detail of regular RFC

(lol, Linkman I was just kidding, I really don't think its possible, in the same in detail capacity that each mod offers...)

Optical

Oct 25, 2011, 02:47 AM

It could work, if you pared the number of civs down to about 50, used one of those big 50civ DLL mods as the base and used the mapsize of GEM...

I might have to try this mod again, it looks like it's progressed a lot since I last played it :)

Leoreth

Oct 25, 2011, 03:23 AM

I don't like historical depictions of scenes for the title screen, it's too distracting imo. Then I'd still prefer the current one, or the first Linkman linked. Linkman's second is quite apt for the loading screen imo, to keep with RFC's theme of using maps there.

merijn_v1

Oct 25, 2011, 03:44 AM

No one likes my background?:(:cry:

I'm, just kidding. I someone of you said, but a bit difficult to look at. (Although I still think it's a nice picture) It should indeed be "softer" in the eye. I think the last one of the ones that The Turk suggested a loading screen (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/MongolArcher.jpg) is nice for the Background, and the loading screen stays as it is now.

civ-addicted

Oct 25, 2011, 03:49 AM

Also what historical Empire is the Indo-Greek one supposed to represent, as I've never heard of them.. for me its always skipped from Alexander's conquests, to the formation of the Mauryan Empire, right after the Greek collapse.I thought of it as the Macedons (who founded Kandhara), the Seleucids, the Graeco-Bactrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Bactrian) and the actual Indo-Greek Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks). First, i wasn't sure if i should name them Greeks, and they were ethnical Greeks, but their culture which involved a lot of Buddhism diverse them from the Greeks itself; i think it can be compared to England-USA or Dutch-Boer relations. So don't necessarily think of it just as the Indo-Greeks, hence the capital which is the first Greek city in Asia, not Sialkot.
I didn't know about them at all, and it's always nice to learn some historical facts:) That always makes me want to learn more, although is so far from the scientific field i'm working on.Also can you please reduce/remove the animal barbarians. I can't take this mod seriously, when I'm fighting jaguars, I mean this was never a problem for Kingdoms, if there was a jaguar or lion near their borders. In my opinion the whole barb.py file should be changed so it symbolized ACTUAL historical invasions by different groups that can be characterized as barbarians in this mod, much like how SoI organizes the various barbarian invasions, whether they be Bulgarian barbarians or Turkic Barbarians.I think the animals are an essential part of CIV; no animals at all wouldn't be historical either. Your workers outside of your borders (connecting 2 cities f.e.) needs protection, and i can't imagine that prioneer-like workers who buildt Qin Shi Huangdi's Great Wall didn't have any soldiers with them. That's the whole point of animals.
They are no real threat for soldiers, but they fill up the void space, putting life on the map and make the whole game more pleasant to look at imo.

Oh, and thanks for the suggestions. I think can make multipe designs, which everyone can choose from whatever one likes best (@merijn: i'll keep the current one as RFCA-classic;))

The Turk

Oct 25, 2011, 11:17 AM

Leoreth

Oct 25, 2011, 12:21 PM

I rarely hit into the same mould as The Turk regarding civs that (capital letters) HAVE to be in for historical reasons, but I agree on the Guptas as a proper civ for the reasons already mentioned, golden age of India and whatnot.

merijn_v1

Oct 25, 2011, 02:10 PM

As for the background, you are free to pick whichever one you would like. I mean no offense to Merjin, they were nice placeholders, but they are kind of hard to look at. Also the loading screen one is ok-ok, it could be better, and I would recommend the Indian (South Asian) one or the one of the Chinese army charging, both of them in my opinion make good loading screens, while the Nomadic Horse Archer would make a good background. Overall just look for something professional looking, without too glitzy font, thats easy to read. Even Embryodead's minimalist background for SoI, with just a desert was quite amazing, considering that it was just an image of a desert. So thats my two-cents on it.

Don't worry. I also think it's quite hard to look at. When I picked it, I just thought it was a nice picture. I didn't take in mind that it's hard to look at it. The background should be changed indeed.

Leoreth

Oct 25, 2011, 05:22 PM

That said, in my opinion one of the battle depictions are even harder to look at than the current title screen.

I think the title screen should be something that's not too complex but conveys the general topic of the mod, while the loading screen can be a historical depiction.

civ-addicted

Oct 26, 2011, 03:48 AM

Thats interesting that you added them, I would have seen them more as a minor faction, that you could have added, rather than a full out civilization. The very fact that they did not exist for very long (only 190 years), plus the fact that they were overshadowed by the Sassanid Persians and Mauryan Indians further makes them insignificant in the overall scope of things. I would therefore instead replace them with the far more significant Kushan Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire) and Gupta Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta_Empire), especially the Gupta's who persided over an Indian Golden Age of scientific advancement and cultural affluence and a recall to Hinduism, as the Mauryans had been Buddhist. Not to mention both these states survived FAR longer than the Indo-Greeks did. It should be remembered for example that it was the Kushans would build the Bamiyan Buddhas, and become very rich due to the silk road. Overall there are a lot more ways to integrate these two great Empires then the vaguely mentioned Yuezhi and Indo-Greeks, who seem to have play little to no role in shaping the area, while the two largest Empires of the time the Kushans and the Guptas are left out.

PS. Also the Yuezhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi) it seems were a nomadic people who migrated around Central Asia for some 54 years only, I mean really civ-addicted, don't you think the Kushans who were great patrons of the arts and trade who lasted hundreds of years should be represented rather than the Yuezhi who at best can be represented by a minor state or barbarian cities. In my opinion they are not important enough either (along with the Indo-Greeks) to warrant having a place in this mod, which focuses on such a wide timeframe.First of all, i mentioned some days ago that those civs that didn't do well in history are the most interesting for me, and thinking of how the Yuezhi kept my interest from day one there is really no way ever that i will remove them.
I made resurrections to work again, and some civs get a special respawn; one of the is the Tocharians to respawn as Kushana, so they will be represented in the future. They won't be playable though; Leoroth scared the poop out of me as he told me that the Italian respawn took immense effort to work:lol: Maybe someday there will be a modmod that adds more civs, but i didn't plan that in the near future. I usually try to favor personal life, and there is about to happen a lot in the next year for me.
Black Whole introduced the Greeks, and he had them planned as unplayable Seleucids; i found it unbearable unsatisfying that the game didn't allow me to play them, so i gave them everything they needed, and, step by step, they accidentally became what they are now. Not to mention that i'm trying to make a LH for them is showing that they have a sincere place in my heart:) On the global context, they do have a minor place, but, well, they are fun to have, and of course to play.
So summarized, i won't delete an interesting civ, but i also won't add a boring civ out of pure historicity.
I'm still figuring out how i should add Gupta. There are three options:
- Maurya to changing to Gupta when they adopt Hinduism
- scripted collapse of Maurya, scripted respawn as Gupta.
- Full blown civ.
Adding them would gnaw at my conscience because i told other requesters that i won't adding any more civs. But having them would result in a possibly more balanced and historical Northern India, adding some challenge for the civs around that area. There is some art flowing around...
...
I'd have to delay the Beta...and i also didn't want to spend that much time anymore...i just don't know...
Can everyone live with a delayed Beta which is possibly buggier and more unbalanced than expected?Another aspect I wanted to talk to you about was Japan. To make Japan more interesting, I would recommend having an independent Kyoto, or whatever the Capital is, and have an Emperor who resides there. You could then have different minor Japanese states, that pop up ever once in a while, to break up Japan, forcing the player to reunite Japan, and recapture the Emperor unit, who must stay where ever the capital is. Currently it seems that Japan is too passive sitting on its own island, with little competition over the grand scheme of time. That seems like a lot of work to make a civ that doesn't totally suck more interesting. Sorry, but no.Although I still disagree with animals, its your mod, so if you feel its necessary then fine, but I would like to stress the inclusion of historically accurate barbarian movements and invasions, rather than random invasions. You should name barbarians, so their called Yuezhi Horsearcher or Jurchen Rider, or whatever. Following on this, the inclusion of province system, might be in order, as it has a lot of benefits when it comes to creating a historical mod. Creating provinces would have the added affect of making UHV's more interesting, it would make mercenaries easier to implement (restrict them to certain provinces), city placement, conquering whatever would all be more simplified if you had border provinces and core provinces. Overall this would create a lot funner game to play, if you had such dynamic regions that would change between Empires and Kingdoms.Don't you know that there are millions of things out there that's trying to kill you that aren't human?
http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/132.gif
I already said that i'm not trying to make provinces; it's a great concept that caused a revolution in RFC modding, as i see. I simply say that it's a way too huge effort now. Not on my watch, sorry.
Mercenaries have been here, but they have been removed by request (i think it was me, and merijn backed me up), and there wasn't any complaints so far. Except for Turkish mercenaries by Tang (Battle of Talas) and the Ghulam (who are the Ghaznavid UU), they wasn't that important either.
As for the background, you are free to pick whichever one you would like. I mean no offense to Merjin, they were nice placeholders, but they are kind of hard to look at. Also the loading screen one is ok-ok, it could be better, and I would recommend the Indian (South Asian) one or the one of the Chinese army charging, both of them in my opinion make good loading screens, while the Nomadic Horse Archer would make a good background. Overall just look for something professional looking, without too glitzy font, thats easy to read. Even Embryodead's minimalist background for SoI, with just a desert was quite amazing, considering that it was just an image of a desert. So thats my two-cents on it. Don't worry. I also think it's quite hard to look at. When I picked it, I just thought it was a nice picture. I didn't take in mind that it's hard to look at it. The background should be changed indeed.That said, in my opinion one of the battle depictions are even harder to look at than the current title screen.

I think the title screen should be something that's not too complex but conveys the general topic of the mod, while the loading screen can be a historical depiction.I love SoI's main screen, because it manages to be excellent in all it's simplicity. A desert and letters. Genius. I doubt that i can come up with something like that without actually copying it.
I'm trying to have multiple designs for every culture so as few people as possible are unhappy;) If someone could find a good painting from SE Asia, that'd be great. Also, does anyone know a font that looks like Mongol script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_script)?
PPS. Please upgrade the detail of the map/terrain and the resources, including camels, as they look quite bad overall. There are several modcomps which make terrain look a LOT nicer. Here is one that I have implemented into RFC and vanilla BtS that makes the terrain and water a lot nicer to look at:I thought the Terrain graphics are the same as in SoI?
I'll try something about the camel graphics; it shouldn't be too hard to give them some motion, and even if i have to use the ones the horse uses.
I rarely hit into the same mould as The Turk regarding civs that (capital letters) HAVE to be in for historical reasons, but I agree on the Guptas as a proper civ for the reasons already mentioned, golden age of India and whatnot.Well, pretty much this.

Leoreth

Oct 26, 2011, 08:37 AM

First of all, i mentioned some days ago that those civs that didn't do well in history are the most interesting for me, and thinking of how the Yuezhi kept my interest from day one there is really no way ever that i will remove them.
I agree, and since SoI is always cited as the ultimate model of mods, it does this as well, with Yemen for example.

I made resurrections to work again, and some civs get a special respawn; one of the is the Tocharians to respawn as Kushana, so they will be represented in the future. They won't be playable though; Leoroth scared the poop out of me as he told me that the Italian respawn took immense effort to work:lol:
Haha, well, it wasn't that complicated. The thing is, I did it that way because I thought at that point that adding new players is even more complicated. All I was saying back then was, if you want to have a playable respawn that has its own goals and stability maps and whatever, simply introduce a new player for that purpose and make sure both don't co-exist.

So summarized, i won't delete an interesting civ, but i also won't add a boring civ out of pure historicity.
I'm still figuring out how i should add Gupta. There are three options:
- Maurya to changing to Gupta when they adopt Hinduism
- scripted collapse of Maurya, scripted respawn as Gupta.
- Full blown civ.
Adding them would gnaw at my conscience because i told other requesters that i won't adding any more civs. But having them would result in a possibly more balanced and historical Northern India, adding some challenge for the civs around that area.
I think any of these options is better than nothing, although as I said before, I think the Gupta Empire warrants to be playable because it's both interesting and historically significant. Indo-Gangetic India is still underrepresented compared to China, with only the Mauryas representing its various dynasties, while China gets six, although India deserves almost the same amount of attention. I know we also have Southern Indian civs like the Chalukyas and Cholas, but still.

Mauryas and Guptas are different enough to be different civs (more different than Tang and Song, for example). In terms of UHV, this would mean that while Maurya represents the religious and military aspects of India with its current goals, Gupta could have any combination of great people / golden ages / science / culture goals to reflect the Indian Golden Age and be much more of a builder civ.

In terms of implementation, this is achieved easiest by making them their own civ.

Tigranes

Oct 26, 2011, 09:42 AM

Indo-Gangetic India is still underrepresented compared to China, with only the Mauryas representing its various dynasties, while China gets six, although India deserves almost the same amount of attention. I know we also have Southern Indian civs like the Chalukyas and Cholas, but still.

Mauryas and Guptas are different enough to be different civs (more different than Tang and Song, for example). In terms of UHV, this would mean that while Maurya represents the religious and military aspects of India with its current goals, Gupta could have any combination of great people / golden ages / science / culture goals to reflect the Indian Golden Age and be much more of a builder civ.

In terms of implementation, this is achieved easiest by making them their own civ.

I absolutely second this. China got not only 6 Civs but also MH mechanics and other cool stuff, like Porcelain (I know, anybody can build it but it still alludes to China).

The Maurya Empire was emphatically a police state, with extensive use of torture and an army of spies and informers, including prostitutes. The Gupta Empire was far more humane, and did not even use capital punishment. Under the Guptas and King Harsha, with exceptionally low population density, Indian civilization reached its peak, with marvellous achievements in poetry, drama, visual arts, mathematics, astronomy, surgery and metallurgy.

I think this quote alone leaves no room to represent Guptas by Mauryas even in the programming terms :) We could re-make one of the Maurya UHV to reflect espionage, and come up with tone of humane Gupta UHVs :D

Nintz

Oct 26, 2011, 11:19 AM

Okay, I'm back.

It's been almost a month since I posted here, but I have a few ideas.

UHV- Not sure if you have new ideas for this or have changed the game in my absence, but here are my ideas for some of the UHV lacking civs. Note: I haven't put in specific years for these, as they are only ideas.

Mongols

1. Claim the Mandate of Heaven/Collapse all chinese civs.

2. Build an army of at least 100 calvary archers by X year.

3. Pilliage at least 5,000 gold from improvements.

Majapahit

1. Allow no Vietnamese, Khmer, or Siamese cities in Indonesia in X year.

2. Have a GDP ranking in the world's top 5 in the year Y.

3. Conquer the Sri Vijayan capitol by year Z.

Song

1. Be the most advanced civilization in the world in year X.

2. Be the richest civilization in the world in year X.

3. Do not lose any cities until year Y.

New Corporation- Hellenism.

Provides extra culture in cities. Starts with the Indo-Greeks. Can only be spread manually, through a special unit (Western/Greek Scholar). Excpetion is the Indo-Greeks, who would auto-spread it. Gives access to the Greek Senate building. Provides +2 happiness, -1 production, +2% gold income, -2% maintenaince costs. A general building that slightly helps multiple aspects of a city.

A potential coding issue is the -1 production in cities with only 1 production... they wouldn't be able to build anything.

civ-addicted

Oct 27, 2011, 01:30 PM

Okay, I'm back.

It's been almost a month since I posted here, but I have a few ideas.
Welcome back:)
UHV- Not sure if you have new ideas for this or have changed the game in my absence, but here are my ideas for some of the UHV lacking civs. Note: I haven't put in specific years for these, as they are only ideas.

Mongols

1. Claim the Mandate of Heaven/Collapse all chinese civs.

2. Build an army of at least 100 calvary archers by X year.

3. Pilliage at least 5,000 gold from improvements.

Majapahit

1. Allow no Vietnamese, Khmer, or Siamese cities in Indonesia in X year.

2. Have a GDP ranking in the world's top 5 in the year Y.

3. Conquer the Sri Vijayan capitol by year Z.

Song

1. Be the most advanced civilization in the world in year X.

2. Be the richest civilization in the world in year X.

3. Do not lose any cities until year Y.Mongols and Song have coded UHVs already; hardly played Majapahit, and their UHVs have never been reported yet (but it seems to me that all three can be achieved by doing the same thing). I'll try to play them and decide whether they need new ones.
New Corporation- Hellenism.

Provides extra culture in cities. Starts with the Indo-Greeks. Can only be spread manually, through a special unit (Western/Greek Scholar). Excpetion is the Indo-Greeks, who would auto-spread it. Gives access to the Greek Senate building. Provides +2 happiness, -1 production, +2% gold income, -2% maintenaince costs. A general building that slightly helps multiple aspects of a city.

A potential coding issue is the -1 production in cities with only 1 production... they wouldn't be able to build anything.Hellenism, huh? :think: nice idea. I'll try to do something with it.
Mauryas and Guptas are different enough to be different civs (more different than Tang and Song, for example). In terms of UHV, this would mean that while Maurya represents the religious and military aspects of India with its current goals, Gupta could have any combination of great people / golden ages / science / culture goals to reflect the Indian Golden Age and be much more of a builder civ.

In terms of implementation, this is achieved easiest by making them their own civ.

I absolutely second this. China got not only 6 Civs but also MH mechanics and other cool stuff, like Porcelain (I know, anybody can build it but it still alludes to China).
[...]
I think this quote alone leaves no room to represent Guptas by Mauryas even in the programming terms :) We could re-make one of the Maurya UHV to reflect espionage, and come up with tone of humane Gupta UHVs :DI hope the other requesters aren't mad at me, but i started to do the necessary work to add Gupta. I still need a UU and a UB (with decent art, of course;)), suggestions for UHVs and a UP are welcome as well.