It seems to me making the medic promotion only be available to vanguard units is a somewhat forced way to make them more relevant. Counter to their stated purpose, I find myself needing vanguards mostly in the rear, to be placed next to recuperating units. Which all in all feels bit silly. Otherwise I might have half my front-lines units carry the medic, so they can help each other out.

There was a problem where elite combat units with a self-healing Medic promotion were too powerful. But if the medic promotion doesn't heal its own unit, it's too weak to place on expensive elite units (like swordsmen) in most circumstances. Those units are better to send into combat and keep on the move... so March is a stronger promotion to go for.

This was difficult to balance so I moved it to vanguards and added self-healing, turning Medic into a powerful and desirable promotion. Vanguard units are much cheaper than other unit classes, which makes them ideal out-of-combat medics. Medics are first responders in the real world, and vanguard units are first responders in Civ, so it fits thematically. :)

I am in more agreement with Tlaurila here, I think there is a dichotomy between a frontline vanguard and a cheap medic. Unless they have march, my damaged units aren't on the frontline, they're back a bit, so they don't get killed, and my medic will be with them.

Medic units in Civ5 are not first responders, because they don't work on units that don't spend a turn healing (again, except with march).

I don't think medic is inherently underpowered if it doesn't self-heal.

From my point of view, its an idea to think of. Having dedicated medics, thats the way i actually understood thals modification, brings a bit more complexity.
I'ld not promote my swordman which is build to capture city, exactly due to the fact mentioned by you ahriman, the medic is with the wounded units.
I'ld promote one of my vanguard units to deal with it.

Having a medic healing nearby units while capturing a city (in case of promoting my frontline with medic-promotion) feels a bit strange

From my point of view, its an idea to think of. Having dedicated medics, thats the way i actually understood thals modification, brings a bit more complexity.
I'ld not promote my swordman which is build to capture city, exactly due to the fact mentioned by you ahriman, the medic is with the wounded units.
I'ld promote one of my vanguard units to deal with it.

Having a medic healing nearby units while capturing a city (in case of promoting my frontline with medic-promotion) feels a bit strange

these dedicated medics would be civilian units, i assume?

I am in more agreement with Tlaurila here, I think there is a dichotomy between a frontline vanguard and a cheap medic. Unless they have march, my damaged units aren't on the frontline, they're back a bit, so they don't get killed, and my medic will be with them.

i haven't playtested enough to say one way or another, but i agree with above.


I believe there is a specific mod out there that does this (and, at least previously, it didn't conflict with VEM). modmod?

these dedicated medics would be civilian units, i assume?

no ..., dedicated in a way that i would never bring a vanguard unit to the very front while having stronger units rdy to take a city.
a medic-vanguard would count as medic cause i would use it in a way that it heals my wounded units in the second or even third row behind the front ...

@Ahriman
I completely agree medics often hang back where damaged units retreat to. Since backrow medics don't see much combat, they can have low strength, and probably shouldn't cost much. Vanguards ideally fit both criteria. :)

Everything has a role in a combined arms force:


Mounted units kill archers/siege.
Archers kill swordsmen.
Swords and siege attack cities.
Vanguards detect and defend.

Healing and defense are similar concepts. Medics give first aid, and "aid" is a synonym of "defend."

@Ahriman
I completely agree medics are usually behind the front lines, where damaged units retreat to. Since medics are not going to participate in much combat at the back row, they don't need high strength, and probably shouldn't cost much. Vanguard units ideally fit both these criteria. :)

Everything has a role in a combined arms force:


Mounted units kill archers/siege.
Archers kill swordsmen.
Swords and siege attack cities.
Vanguards detect and defend.

Healing and defense are similar concepts. Medics give first aid, and "aid" is a synonym of "defend."

Yep, I always try to have a Vanguard medic (possibly with cover) up in the front to help my melee units hold the line while the ranged and mounted do the damage.

Medic offers nice variety to promotions, so it should certainly be in there. One thing to consider is that medic overwhelmingly helps the human against the AI, though.

If medic is overpowered, maybe decrease the extra healing to 1hp? So that we can have variety in promotions there as well? The front-line unit with 5 promotions should be strong, but of course there is such a thing as too strong. Helping the human tactically wheather out AI attacks and win attrition even outside friendly territory, spreading damage and healing by carefully managing the army, isn't something this game needs more of, imo.

Who said medics were OP?

There's a difference between OP and rules that seem to help the human more than the AI. For example, ships would be infinitely more OP than medics, viewed from that perspective. Should we take away many of the naval promotions, since the AI gets essentially no benefit from theirs?

Thal said medics was OP:
There was a problem where elite combat units with a self-healing Medic promotion were too powerful.

So instead of fixing this by restricting medics to units that are weak otherwise (vanguard), could/should it be fixed by toning down the medic promotion and allowing all units to use it? Separate medic units are certainly a human-only thing, and not necessarily something to encourage the use of. Human player already wins hugely by spreading out damage to his units and healing better than AI. Having the medic unit give double foreign-lands healing for human only is unnecessary, imo. We can take our units to friendly terrain to heal.

I think it is historically sound. Local peasant "armies" often travelled with family members and village healers and priests.
They were in front in back or just disappearing back to their villages.
It's nice that you can specialize them to be outlooks, or fodder, or healers. That's why they're worth the extra cost to me.

I usually upgrade my vanguard units in one of 3 ways:

Scout (take the sight/movement/ignore terrain penalties upgrades)
Vanguard (Take the defense in terrain X bonuses which also come with bonus sight increase)
Medic (Take the medic bonuses)

I keep the medics in the back, and the van in the front, and the scouts are the ones I send out to explore after scout is obsolete.

Having a medical promotion from combat seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

First aid should be an upgrade that all units gain to patch together a buddy long enough to transport to the rear. If getting them to the rear is not possible it should take many turns to heal them back to fighting abilities.

Dedicated medical units should be available with the medic ability from the start and upgrades based on experience they get from healing. (Civilian units that play no part in fighting).

The problem with the AI is that the only way it thinks to heal it's units is by hunkering down on the front line. If it simply swapped places with a healthy unit from time to time it would be much more powerful.

Some more abstraction than that is called for here. "Healing" in Civ5 doesn't mean literally healing wounded men. It means replenishing the unit to full combat lineup.

Self-healing abilities for vanguards, even including march, makes lots of sense. They're supposed to be simpler trained troops than the elites, thus quick to replenish. What doesn't make sense is that they're able to quickly replenish any and all nearby units! Especially in enemy territory.

So perhaps vanguards could have early acces to March? (How is that now?)

And could Medic be made such that the unit can heal an additional +2hp (could be 4 in friendly territory if possible), but it can heal either itself or one unit around it? That means it's quick to draft more vanguards, and the veteran vanguardsmen can be promoted to "elite" units.

This would also rightly make it harder for the human to wage war in enemy territory, because you can't rely on a vanguard healer working on all the damaged units.

Some more abstraction than that is called for here. "Healing" in Civ5 doesn't mean literally healing wounded men. It means replenishing the unit to full combat lineup.
Not necessarily. It can easily mean some combination of improved medical care (that gets more injured people back into fighting condition and back to the front), improved sanitation (fewer losses to disease), better logistics (more/better food for soldiers means more are in fighting condition, and better morale so fewer losses from desertion), and otherwise lower attrition.
Bundle these up and call it "medic".

Reducing recovery from losses need not just be faster recruitment. In pre-modern times, armies in the field weren't really adding new recruits during the campaign, and they suffered most of their losses from attrition rather than combat, so something that reduces attrition losses would be significant, and roughly equivalent to faster healing.

I tend to define most functions in Civ 5 as broadly as Ahriman defines "medic," which is why I have little problem with the current medic promotion. It could be argued that there should be no medic function at all prior to the industrial era, no matter how it's defined, given the major differences in "replenishment" with prior eras. It's also true that this helps the human player much more than the AI. And the counter to all that is the fun factor, based on the skillful use of a unit. So for me this falls into the consensus category, where I wouldn't argue strongly either way.

Put me down as a vote for loving the way it is now.

I like having medic on Vanguard units. It never made sense to me to have every unit with the ability to heal others. I like having the medics trailing behind the scene. I usually have a 2nd (I think of it as MASH) helping heal the march capable troops keeping them on the line longer before having to pull them back.

Put me down as a vote for loving the way it is now.
Hear, hear. It's much more strategically interesting to have both offensive and support/defensive units.

I also love the way it is now, with the three scout/vanguard/medic promotion lines. These vanguard units are really interesting to play with: finely balanced as a unit class themselves and also finely balanced with other unit classes.