View Full Version : Alternative Timelines


Hydromancerx
Sep 12, 2011, 07:06 PM
The Alternate Timeline components are held in the Assets/Modules/Alt_Timelines folder of this mod.

You can turn each part of these mods on or off by editing the MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml file in this folder. A 1 in the bLoad tag turns on the mod named in the directory tag. A zero turns it off. See here for a tutorial on this file.

Note also: There is a sub folder Dangers_Of_the_Deep which contains some fantasy units like the leviathan and mermaids which are used to represent the mysteries that cause ships to sink. It also has a MLF file in it so you can turn on and off these units.

------

Post your alternative timeline ideas in this thread.

Here are some old posts I hd on the subject ...

I have been thinking about unique techs and hidden techs. Perhaps you should have era specific techs that will disappear if you go to the next era. Thus players who streamline to the next era will not get all the benefits of that era.

As for hidden or civ specific I have some ideas for those such as ...

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/237/2/f/Patagonian_War_by_Hydromancerx.jpg
(Concept Drawing by Hydromancerx)

This would be an alternative timeline where the South American mega-fauna never went extinct and Inca and other South American civs domesticated ground sloths and terror birds to be their mounts since they don't have horses in South America.

Other ideas would be "Steam Punk" tech, "Da Vinci" tech, no dark ages tech and other alternative timeline situations where existing history takes a slightly diffrent path. For instance in the no dark ages tech you would jump right to the Renaissance and not loose old ancient techs that say the Romans once had. Or "Steam Punk" tech expands upon industrial age technology without going into the modern age yet.

It would also be neat if you could have even diffrent era trees where your not always going down the same linage era path. This could be more interesting for future eras too since history for that is not written yet.

Here is a chart i quickly drew up to show what I mean.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5010889957_8f8f088c66_b.jpg

As you can see with the blue that's our normal timeline. The green ones are like the Aztecs where they went into an Obsidian Age and then were conquered and hurled forward to the Imperial Age. Likewise I have ones that go backwards such as Atomic Age to Post-Apocalyptic and then back to like Dark Ages. I think it would be really cool if you not only could take a diffrent era path but possibly have to redo eras because of apocalypses.

"Punk" Types ...

- Prehistoric Era = Stonepunk
- Ancient Era = ?
- Classical Era = ?
- Medieval Era = Cogpunk
- Renaissance Era = Clockpunk
- Industrial Era = Steampunk
- Modern Era = Dieselpunk
- Trans-Human Era = Cyberpunk / Biopunk / Nanopunk
- Galactic Eras = ?

Hydromancerx
Sep 12, 2011, 07:34 PM
Some Ancient Techs and Exotic Weapons that could be added.

- Greek Railroad (Sailing Ships on Tracks)
- Kite Bombs
- Da Vinci Tank
- Da Vinci Ornithopter
- Da Vinci Screw Helocpter
- Da Vinci Pyramid Parachute
- Da Vinci Organ Guns
- Da Vinci War Machine
- Chinese Un-Manned Crossbow Chariot
- Wind Car (Land Sailboat)
- Paper Armor (Lamellar Armour)
- Rhino Hide Armor
- Meteor Hammer
- Flying Crow
- Ancient Roman Super Watermills
- Dock Traps (Spiked Under Water Taps)
- Ancient Chinese Steam Turbine
- Baghdad Batteries
- Japanese Horo "Arrow Catcher" (Silk cape/balloon)

More to come ...

philipschall
Sep 12, 2011, 08:02 PM
I love the idea of a post-apocalyptic world, ala fallout or <shudder>waterworld</shudder>. I could see it as the player or the AI has to complete a world project to save everyone from the brink of destruction. Failure to do so massively terraforms most of the world to be inhospitable, but the players can go through the post apocalyptic "rebuilding civilization" period until they reach back at the industrial age and go from there.

rightfuture
Sep 12, 2011, 08:14 PM
Ok here we go. Love the ideas. I am amazed at what you've come up with. I can't wait to see where else we can go!!

rightfuture
Sep 12, 2011, 08:39 PM
I think the post -apocalyptic world scenario could be a random option triggered by events, like the dark ages in the medieval time period. Droughts affected whole civilizations and could change the course of history.

classical era - leverpunk -
ancient era- wheelpunk

45°38'N-13°47'E
Sep 13, 2011, 02:31 AM
Very cool ideas; I especially like the Post-apocalyptic-->Dark ages idea. But is it feasible? AFAIK, there's no way to "unlearn" a tech; I think it's somehow hard coded inside the game, isn't it? It would be very cool to "unlearn" techs after a worldwide apocalypse (nuclear war, an event such a meteor impact, an alien invasion, a deadly epidemic) and then have to re-discover techs. If such a thing is somehow possible, it would be cool to unlearn some techs while keeping bits of other techs. Unfortunately I don't see how is possible to do it. :(

Koshling
Sep 13, 2011, 02:41 AM
Very cool ideas; I especially like the Post-apocalyptic-->Dark ages idea. But is it feasible? AFAIK, there's no way to "unlearn" a tech; I think it's somehow hard coded inside the game, isn't it? It would be very cool to "unlearn" techs after a worldwide apocalypse (nuclear war, an event such a meteor impact, an alien invasion, a deadly epidemic) and then have to re-discover techs. If such a thing is somehow possible, it would be cool to unlearn some techs while keeping bits of other techs. Unfortunately I don't see how is possible to do it. :(

The main issue with unlearning is that the code assumes all ove the place that things you can do don't go away, so it has no capability to disable units or promotions or buildings etc. Due to techs being lost. None of it would be rocket science, but probably it would need a large number of changes all over the place, so in pracise it would be a matter of watching out for bugs and fixing them as we came across them.

45°38'N-13°47'E
Sep 13, 2011, 03:05 AM
The main issue with unlearning is that the code assumes all ove the place that things you can do don't go away, so it has no capability to disable units or promotions or buildings etc. Due to techs being lost. None of it would be rocket science, but probably it would need a large number of changes all over the place, so in pracise it would be a matter of watching out for bugs and fixing them as we came across them.

Well, do you mean that if I've lost for example "Flight" I can build Airports anyway? Is that what you mean? Or do you mean that if I've lost Flight, Airports I've built previously still remain in the game? Because the first one could be a problem, the second one isn't really, IMHO: even if I lose the tech, that doesn't mean that everything that I've achieved with that tech should go away; it would mean simply that I can't replace those things (in case I lose them for some other reason) without re-discovering that tech.

AIAndy
Sep 13, 2011, 04:01 AM
Apocalyptic events are a great idea. Too much nuke usage or building? Might trigger an atomic apocalypse.
Lots of the world gets terraformed, lots of destruction, loss of a lot of technological knowledge and therefore also equalization between advanced and not so advanced civs. Remaining advanced units are now quite powerful in comparison but get the remnant promotion which prevents all or most of the healing of the unit.
Then a post apocalyptic tech line that gets available after the apocalypse and helps dealing with the consequences like fallout and keeping some of the old units going. Like scavenging apocalyptic city ruins to heal them.

The terrain slowly transforms back over many years to a hospitable world and the post apocalyptic tech line gets lost again.

Hydromancerx
Sep 13, 2011, 05:15 AM
Apocalyptic events are a great idea. Too much nuke usage or building? Might trigger an atomic apocalypse.
Lots of the world gets terraformed, lots of destruction, loss of a lot of technological knowledge and therefore also equalization between advanced and not so advanced civs. Remaining advanced units are now quite powerful in comparison but get the remnant promotion which prevents all or most of the healing of the unit.
Then a post apocalyptic tech line that gets available after the apocalypse and helps dealing with the consequences like fallout and keeping some of the old units going. Like scavenging apocalyptic city ruins to heal them.

The terrain slowly transforms back over many years to a hospitable world and the post apocalyptic tech line gets lost again.

Yeah there is a whole post-apocalyptic mod which we could pull units from. If such a thing could work I would be totally for a Post Apocalyptic Era.

Koshling
Sep 13, 2011, 06:51 AM
Well, do you mean that if I've lost for example "Flight" I can build Airports anyway? Is that what you mean? Or do you mean that if I've lost Flight, Airports I've built previously still remain in the game? Because the first one could be a problem, the second one isn't really, IMHO: even if I lose the tech, that doesn't mean that everything that I've achieved with that tech should go away; it would mean simply that I can't replace those things (in case I lose them for some other reason) without re-discovering that tech.

I meant the latter, but as you say that's not really a problem case. The problem cases are things like techs that give bonuses to improvements (plough adding to yield from farms for example), which I don't think any code would remove, but which you'd get again when relearning the tech, meaning farms would then get the plough bonus yield twice. Each such case should be easy enough to fix, it's just that it's unlikely we'd pick them all up in advance, so it would be a question of patching things up with bug fixes as we realized they were issues.

steampunk1880
Sep 13, 2011, 03:55 PM
How might one trigger the Ancient Golden Age and how would it differ from the Dark and Middle ages. From what I understand the Dark Age would be characterized by massive decentralization of power and a return to illiteracy as the population of Europe reverted to survival mode as Rome receded, towns and villages developed early fortification as they could no longer count on a powerful central government to protect them with armies. The Middle ages were characterized by the growing power of the landed aristocracy, the further development of fortification techniques and the development of philosophies that legitimized the power of the nobility.

- Units learned from the Dark and Middle ages might focus on defensive footmen early on (men-at-arms and medieval spearmen such as the guisarmier stolen from RFCEurope before the aristocracy's lancers overtake them culminating in the powerful knight unit. Defensive --> Offensive. Allowing for the creation of empires in time for the Renaissance and Imperial ages.
- Buildings learned from the Dark and Middle ages should be powerfully defensive with high walls, keeps moats and such being exclusive to this line. But the civ should suffer greatly with science and culture with something like a medieval upgrade to the monastery being the only science building learned during the age, and the limited Cathedral being the only culture focused building learned until renaissance theaters.
There could also be exclusive medieval upgrades to free xp buildings similar to the Knights Stable that emphasizes the martial training of the era. A Manor House building available early on might ease maintenance, produce a defensive bonus and give free xp at the expense of a fair amount of food. This is to to symbolize the era. It should become obsolete in the middle of the renaissance.
- Civics learned from the middle ages are pretty obvious, aristocracy, absolute monarchy, manorialism.

Guilds don't appear until renaissance right?

An ancient golden age, however it's triggered (maybe by a national wonder that is only available towards the end of the iron age before being made obsolete by the first couple dark age techs) should in many ways be the opposite of this by preforming very well in science and culture but having a generally terrible offense, defense and mobility so that, as a Middle ages Civ and an Ancient Golden Age civ exit to the renaissance the Caesar or High Councilor of the ancient golden age civ should, all other things equal, be mincemeat for a well prepared King or Warlord coming off the middle ages.

- Units learned from the Ancient Golden Age should in all cases be slightly to moderately weaker than their Dark and Middle age counterparts starting with some decent on attack weak on defense evolution of the Legion and ending up with a slow decent city defender that won't be able to do much against a knight on open ground. (I suggest something like a Polybolos type heavy repeating crossbow guard adapted from the chu-ko-nu art or something. If memory serves knights are immune to first strikes and flank attack siege units. Make Polybolos a siege unit with lots of first strikes and have have more base power than any other AGE unit so Medieval Knights usually get to attack it first.)
- Buildings learned from the Ancient Golden Age should be heavy on the marble columns and, like i said, focus on science and culture (Academy of this, University of that) that said there should probably be no new defensive structures until late renaissance early imperial age star forts.
- Civics learned from the Ancient Golden Age could go two ways. I was thinking there could either be a utopian return to republic with a AGA unique civic that compounds the science and culture bonus already gained from the buildings OR some kind of militaristic Super Caesar civic that greatly mitigates the bonuses from the buildings in exchange for making you not quite such a fragile butterfly (free xp, bonuses on defense, speedy unit training, -33% science, -33% culture). Also maybe early access to Guilds since those evolved from Roman institutions.

and it should all be mostly mutually exclusive.

...anyway that's my two cents on the Ancient Golden Age.

I think I've thrown random suggestions about Steam Punk before. My ideas can probably be summarized by like this: ++ Science ----- Health. Giant polluting steam powered mechanical computers, a variety of speedy but fragile airships and probably a land leviathan for a slow early tank and most everything requires a special workshop that pumps out even more pollution. Stuff and their pollution should start going obsolete around the time of electronic computers.

rightfuture
Sep 13, 2011, 04:34 PM
There are some theories that the Dark Ages were triggered by a global cooling period, that was almost a mini mini Ice age.
Some think it was caused by a set of meteors, or volcano's which could have some environmental effects.
The Clovis culture in North America has been theorized as possibly being seriously affected by such, as well as the extinction of megafauna.
Triggering events could also be viral, or biological. Could also be caused by cultures moving into new areas and challenging the status quo. Many extinction events are caused by a new species being introduced by a land bridge opening up. Viruses could spread that way as well.
Dark ages could also be an age of ignorance. America is sure toying with the idea with some of the ignorant anti-science attitudes some politicians are throwing around. Maybe a technology is forgotten or outlawed and there is a consequence in a country.

Golden ages could be triggered by a new technology, an inspired leader, or a new civic being introduced, or a philosophy. The Renaissance Age could be considered a Golden Age (maybe an automatic one is triggered). I like the idea of a golden age being a triggered event that opens up benefits and maybe new tech opportunities.

Dirigibles / Airships did not have to go out of style at a given point.
Hydrogen explosions made them go out of style, it didn't have to happen.
There is a recent NASA news article this week that talks of a research project to bring back blimps for transporting freight cheaply. The television show Fringe speculates on a modern alternate earth in which airships never went away.

Likewise automobiles could have spawned earlier with steam technology.
Maybe a triggered Alternate Technology Era like event, like a Golden Age is triggered now, could be a selectable Alternate Timeline option that may allow for a technology like gunpowder, or automobiles, or airflight being discovered early or out of sequence?

An Apocalyptic Era, could be a triggered event that cause all nations to have a dark age, where a set of technologies are randomly forgotten or dropped a full era. If done randomly it could be interesting. Post- Apocalyptic technologies for recovery could be introduced. Events or Goody huts for lost technology could be reintroduced.

Mega Nix
Sep 16, 2011, 06:24 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5010889957_8f8f088c66_b.jpg

I'm more thinking that you have the option to start this alternative ages but at a cost. The researches gives you an advanced compared to others who chosses the linear researchtree. But at a time you cant advance further and have to get back to the linear researchtree, then you get back, many of the previous alternative technologies gets disabled. So you are now crippled compared to the other Civs

EldrinFal
Sep 17, 2011, 12:20 AM
@DH

Can you post or link here how to turn on/off your alternative timeline "fantasy" units? I think that info belongs in this thread for people to reference. :)

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 18, 2011, 08:15 PM
@Hydro, please add the following to the first post.

The Alternate Timeline components are held in the Assets/Modules/Alt_Timelines folder of this mod.

You can turn each part of these mods on or off by editing the MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml file in this folder. A 1 in the bLoad tag turns on the mod named in the directory tag. A zero turns it off. See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329056) for a tutorial on this file.

Note also: There is a sub folder Dangers_Of_the_Deep which contains some fantasy units like the leviathan and mermaids which are used to represent the mysteries that cause ships to sink. It also has a MLF file in it so you can turn on and off these units.

Hydromancerx
Sep 18, 2011, 08:59 PM
Done.

EldrinFal
Sep 18, 2011, 11:21 PM
Thanks guys.:goodjob:

Is "Dangers of the Deep" not in v17? Didn't see that subfolder.

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 19, 2011, 12:11 AM
Thanks guys.:goodjob:

Is "Dangers of the Deep" not in v17? Didn't see that subfolder.

I have not tested it yet so it is not there. SaibotLieh just released a mermaid and has some other fantasy sea critters somewhere. How could I resist. :D

strategyonly
Sep 19, 2011, 02:35 AM
I have not tested it yet so it is not there. SaibotLieh just released a mermaid and has some other fantasy sea critters somewhere. How could I resist. :D

ahaha, i was wondering if you'd see that:p

btw, did that last PM i sent you work on that project "we" were working on, Hydro said his worked, but EldrinFal said his still crashes?

Hydromancerx
Sep 19, 2011, 03:07 AM
Mine did work. I can take a screenshot if you want proof. :p

I can't wait to see how it develops too. So much potential. :D

EldrinFal
Sep 19, 2011, 09:01 AM
ahaha, i was wondering if you'd see that:p

btw, did that last PM i sent you work on that project "we" were working on, Hydro said his worked, but EldrinFal said his still crashes?

Maybe I need clarification on the setup.

From what I read of your PM, I am to copy the C2C folder so it will be "Caveman2Cosmos - Copy". I tried loading the module like that.

Before I Load the Mod, do I need to change that folder name? i.e. should the COPY be my ORIGINAL / Non-modified version and the "beta" we're testing be changed to the normal "Caveman2Cosmos" ?

Edit: StrategyOnly, have you considered setting up a private mailing list or Google group type thing for developer discussion?

EldrinFal
Sep 19, 2011, 09:22 AM
Alright, I'm gunna throw this out there...

Has the idea been discussed to add dinosaurs to the early game? It would be an Alternative Timeline, i.e. if the Ice Age never happened. Just curious :)

AIAndy
Sep 19, 2011, 10:18 AM
Alright, I'm gunna throw this out there...

Has the idea been discussed to add dinosaurs to the early game? It would be an Alternative Timeline, i.e. if the Ice Age never happened. Just curious :)
Ice Age and dinosaur extinction have nothing to do with each other. Dinosaurs (except for birds) died out 65 million years ago while the current ice age started about 33 million years ago (and is still going on, we are but in an interglacial although human interference might change that in any direction).

EldrinFal
Sep 19, 2011, 11:23 AM
Ice Age and dinosaur extinction have nothing to do with each other. Dinosaurs (except for birds) died out 65 million years ago while the current ice age started about 33 million years ago (and is still going on, we are but in an interglacial although human interference might change that in any direction).

Alright, well I'm no paleontologist, but I know one of the current theories is a meteor strike. From what I've seen on various Discovery/NatGeo programs, I thought they believed this COULD have triggered an ice age by a massive dust cloud blocking out the sun. :scan:

In any case, SOME event caused it. So in an Alternate Timeline that event didn't occur. :)

AIAndy
Sep 19, 2011, 11:49 AM
Yeah, the meteor strike is one of the most probable theories but it does not really create a full blown ice age (which usually take several 10 million years). The speed of the climate change from a meteor strike is what can cause an extinction.

If you use one of the Perfect World map scripts, then yes, meteors kill off all dinosaurs.
From the debug log it creates: :)
A meteor has struck the Earth at 55, 40!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 105, 15!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 25, 45!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 10, 30!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 5, 20!!

The age of dinosaurs has come to a cataclysmic end.

EldrinFal
Sep 19, 2011, 11:55 AM
Yeah, the meteor strike is one of the most probable theories but it does not really create a full blown ice age (which usually take several 10 million years). The speed of the climate change from a meteor strike is what can cause an extinction.

If you use one of the Perfect World map scripts, then yes, meteors kill off all dinosaurs.
From the debug log it creates: :)
A meteor has struck the Earth at 55, 40!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 105, 15!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 25, 45!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 10, 30!!
A meteor has struck the Earth at 5, 20!!

The age of dinosaurs has come to a cataclysmic end.

ROFL :lol: Well in the Alternate History, some survived. The meteors weren't big enough to change the climate :mischief:

DolphinTuna
Sep 19, 2011, 01:22 PM
This is really interesting. The timeline just sets of my imagination of the possibilities for it being implemented in C2C.

Hydromancerx
Sep 19, 2011, 07:44 PM
Alright, I'm gunna throw this out there...

Has the idea been discussed to add dinosaurs to the early game? It would be an Alternative Timeline, i.e. if the Ice Age never happened. Just curious :)

A big NO. While there are some fun alternative timelines where not all dinosaurs died out I don't want to go that far. The closest we are going is having prehistoric megafauna that never went extinct such as the Mammoth, Ground Sloths, etc. I am huge zoology/paleontology nerd and having dinosaurs at the same time as people is absurd as putting in dragons or sea serpents.

Remember the alternative timelines need to be within the plausible. Thus things like magic or mythical creatures are out. If the dinosaurs survived (aside from say birds) then humans most likely never would have evolved.

Note I have seen plausible alternative timelines where dinosaurs and humans exist but all the really big dinosaurs went extinct and the mammals that did evolve are much different than what we know today. Here are some concept drawings ...

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs45/i/2009/056/9/c/Avititan_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs46/i/2009/224/c/7/Fun_gulates_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs41/i/2009/053/9/3/Mastodon_Analogue_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs49/i/2009/226/f/d/Chulengo_Diversity_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/008/0/5/Steppe_Wanderer_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs42/i/2009/064/d/7/Wooden_armor_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/047/d/b/Flint_Knapping_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/100/e/3/Bronze_Age_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs48/i/2009/164/f/a/Neolithic_Eurasian_Steppe_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/024/b/5/Clothing_of_the_Dinosauroids_2_by_povorot.jpg

Basically this alternative timeline in these pictures have it where not all lineages of dinosaurs died out since the disaster was not as bad. Humans eventually evolved and co-exist on a planet with sapient raptor-like dinosaurs.

While I very much enjoy alternative timelines like this it is much too extreme to implement in our game since we have modern fauna and flora which may not have evolved if dinosaurs had survived. Not to mention even if they did they would be much different than the dinosaurs we are familiar with since they would have all that time to evolve.

The short answer is no. Too many factors to account for since its a very long time since the dinosaurs.

EldrinFal
Sep 19, 2011, 07:53 PM
A big NO. While there are some fun alternative timelines where not all dinosaurs died out I don't want to go that far. The closest we are going is having prehistoric megafauna that never went extinct such as the Mammoth, Ground Sloths, etc. I am huge zoology/paleontology nerd and having dinosaurs at the same time as people is absurd as putting in dragons or sea serpents.

Remember the alternative timelines need to be within the plausible. Thus things like magic or mythical creatures are out. If the dinosaurs survived (aside from say birds) then humans most likely never would have evolved.

Note I have seen plausible alternative timelines where dinosaurs and humans exist but all the really big dinosaurs went extinct and the mammals that did evolve are much different than what we know today. Here are some concept drawings ...

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs45/i/2009/056/9/c/Avititan_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs46/i/2009/224/c/7/Fun_gulates_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs41/i/2009/053/9/3/Mastodon_Analogue_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs49/i/2009/226/f/d/Chulengo_Diversity_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/008/0/5/Steppe_Wanderer_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs42/i/2009/064/d/7/Wooden_armor_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/047/d/b/Flint_Knapping_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/100/e/3/Bronze_Age_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs48/i/2009/164/f/a/Neolithic_Eurasian_Steppe_by_povorot.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/024/b/5/Clothing_of_the_Dinosauroids_2_by_povorot.jpg

Basically this alternative timeline in these pictures have it where not all lineages of dinosaurs died out since the disaster was not as bad. Humans eventually evolved and co-exist on a planet with sapient raptor-like dinosaurs.

While I very much enjoy alternative timelines like this it is much too extreme to implement in our game since we have modern fauna and flora which may not have evolved if dinosaurs had survived. Not to mention even if they did they would be much different than the dinosaurs we are familiar with since they would have all that time to evolve.

The short answer is no. Too many factors to account for since its a very long time since the dinosaurs.

Er... you know there is already an optional Sea Serpent and Mermaid right? :mischief:

Clearly it is one of those things that would be optional if it were ever included. I'm one of those people that don't consider my Civ game as being restricted to Earth's timeline, which is why I like DH's Alternate Timeline units. On some planet somewhere in this universe, or the infinite parallel world universes some scientists theorize about, I bet there are dinosaurs that evolved later, or mankind that evolved earlier, or other number of other possibilities that would pit them together. ;)

Hydromancerx
Sep 19, 2011, 08:35 PM
Er... you know there is already an optional Sea Serpent and Mermaid right? :mischief:

Clearly it is one of those things that would be optional if it were ever included. I'm one of those people that don't consider my Civ game as being restricted to Earth's timeline, which is why I like DH's Alternate Timeline units. On some planet somewhere in this universe, or the infinite parallel world universes some scientists theorize about, I bet there are dinosaurs that evolved later, or mankind that evolved earlier, or other number of other possibilities that would pit them together. ;)

I have pushed for DH's stuff to be optional. But or the core recommended stuff no mythical or paranormal. Personally I am not really happy with his mermaid, sea serpent, bear riders, etc. If we were running a fantasy setting that would be one thing, but C2C is more in the middle as not historically accurate, but not a fantasy mod either.

As for parallel worlds I would like to keep it within a familiar realm. Since it infinite possibilities we could have anything if we took that philosophy. We could have a world run by bugs or fish or aliens took over or physics are changed or evolution ran completely differently from any creature we know.

The realm I would like to have this mod is everything happened the same up till the beginning of the prehistoric era. From there you the play get to choose how human history plays out. Sure there are differences such as if you play on a random map you will not have the same continents as real life. And you will not encounter every civ that existed in real life. But its a game after all and we can only do so much. I mean we already have enough to try to recreate as it is diverging wildly from our own timeline is difficult if not impossible to do.

For example stuff I am cool with ...

- Mammoth Domestication (We domesticated elphants, why not mammoths? We existed at the same time. his seems plausable).
- Steampunk (Developing modern technology earlier than it happened sounds fine since we obviously developed it eventually).
- Space Techs (What today is science fiction is to tomorrows science fact.)

Things I am not cool with ...

- Mythical Creatures (This would be dragons, mermaids, etc. Stuff that doesn't exist nor could not exist without major genetic manipulation).
- Magic (Aside from say technology appearing magical to more primitive civs. The typical magic such as magic spells, etc are a no no)
- Extreme Alternative Timelines (Such as Cat people instead of Humans, or everything is made of candy. Stuff that's so extreme that it is only seen in cartoons).

I hope you understand what loose limits I want to put on the project. There is so much other stuff we can do that is plausible or actually DID happen in human history. We should have no shortage of cool things to added even without mermaids and dragons.

strategyonly
Sep 19, 2011, 08:46 PM
Personally I am not really happy with his mermaid, sea serpent, bear riders, etc. If we were running a fantasy setting that would be one thing, but C2C is more in the middle as not historically accurate, but not a fantasy mod either.

For example stuff I am cool with ...

- Mammoth Domestication (We domesticated elephants, why not mammoths? We existed at the same time. his seems plausible).
- Steampunk (Developing modern technology earlier than it happened sounds fine since we obviously developed it eventually).
- Space Techs (What today is science fiction is to tomorrows science fact.)

Things I am not cool with ...

- Mythical Creatures (This would be dragons, mermaids, etc. Stuff that doesn't exist nor could not exist without major genetic manipulation).
- Magic (Aside from say technology appearing magical to more primitive civs. The typical magic such as magic spells, etc are a no no)
- Extreme Alternative Timelines (Such as Cat people instead of Humans, or everything is made of candy. Stuff that's so extreme that it is only seen in cartoons).

I hope you understand what loose limits I want to put on the project. There is so much other stuff we can do that is plausible or actually DID happen in human history. We should have no shortage of cool things to added even without mermaids and dragons.

I would have to agree here, just glad it is "Optional." Mermaids is pushing it a little, but take off the Sea-Shells and well then thats a different story:p:drool:

Thats why is wish i still kept up on my Fantasy Mod. I have it set with RoM, before he went into all the BUG options stuff, plus i love the fantasy units i put together. Dang wish i was really good at doing everything that needs it, but Oh Well, as they say, "Thats Life."

EldrinFal
Sep 19, 2011, 10:51 PM
I would have to agree here, just glad it is "Optional." Mermaids is pushing it a little, but take off the Sea-Shells and well then thats a different story:p:drool:

Hah!:lol: Is that the AO Game Option? :lol:

Thats why is wish i still kept up on my Fantasy Mod. I have it set with RoM, before he went into all the BUG options stuff, plus i love the fantasy units i put together. Dang wish i was really good at doing everything that needs it, but Oh Well, as they say, "Thats Life."

Guys, I wasn't telling ANYONE to work on this. I was just throwing the idea out into the mix, as I stated in my OP. And I COMPLETELY agree that dinos, mermaids, bear riders, etc. belong as OPTIONAL ONLY. I fully understand that what MY preferences are, are not what the majority would prefer. But at the same time, if someone had a strong interest in adding such an element, they could freely do so as a ModModMOd (how many would we be up to??) which they could use themselves, or offer to CF as they pleased. Because in the end it's just a game for people to have fun. :)

steampunk1880
Sep 19, 2011, 11:47 PM
so are we tackling these alternate paths in order or can we pick and choose favorites, cause I really want to hear about what Retro Space Age means to you and how it would play out gameplaywise. A path to the galactic era for the impatient without the benefit of electronics? Raygun space troopers? Atomic automobiles?

Hydromancerx
Sep 20, 2011, 12:00 AM
so are we tackling these alternate paths in order or can we pick and choose favorites, cause I really want to hear about what Retro Space Age means to you and how it would play out gameplaywise. A path to the galactic era for the impatient without the benefit of electronics? Raygun space troopers? Atomic automobiles?

I would like to get more of the Galactic Era in place before we tackle that possible alternate era. Perhaps if any one should be put in first be steam punk since that has the most info for it.

Hankc
Sep 20, 2011, 03:39 AM
I had an attack of inspiration last night (Dinosaurs probably had something to do with it:D), and came up with using events to add alternative timeline stuff.

The idea is to have several events that are indistinguable for the player. As an example:

A famous explorer arrives at your court asking for government fundig for his most ambitious expedition yet. In return, he promises to give a part of any treassure he might uncover.
*We cant afford it (Nothing happens)
*We can only make a small contribution (-gold)
*We'd be delighted! How much do you need? (-more gold)

Tis is all the player sees. My design have 4 of these events, with different rewards:
1. Failed expedition: The explores die, or fail to find anyting interesting. No reward.
2. The expedition have uncovered new plants and animals that could benefit our empire! Recive a number of plantable resources(units), similar to a great farmer, but can only plant one type of resource. e.g. Plantable resource (cow), plantable resource (hemp) etc. Number of resorces depends om how much money you gave the explorer.
3. The explorers have uncovered El dorado!/One of the seven cities of gold/ etc. Recieve a number of Treassure units.
4. The explorers have found a lost world, filled with all manner of strange beasts. Recieve a number of plantable dinosaur resources.

The first two events would be the most common outcomes, but rarer results should be comon enough to make it a tough decission wheter or not to provide funding. Events like these could add a bit of randomness and unpredictability to the game in regards to more alternative stuff.

Hydromancerx
Sep 20, 2011, 04:01 AM
Well the problem is we have reached our resource limit. So a dinosaur resource would not be possible. However we could have it where they find a fossil site. It would be a terrain feature and not a resource.

Praetyre
Sep 20, 2011, 05:31 AM
One could simply have result 4 randomly adding the Fossil feature to a few tiles, though, and you'd have the same effect. Or it could grant you a unique, unbuildable Paleontologist unit which can "plant" the Fossil feature much as the Great Farmer can plant crop resources.

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 20, 2011, 07:29 AM
I had an attack of inspiration last night (Dinosaurs probably had something to do with it:D), and came up with using events to add alternative timeline stuff.

The idea is to have several events that are indistinguable for the player. As an example:

A famous explorer arrives at your court asking for government fundig for his most ambitious expedition yet. In return, he promises to give a part of any treassure he might uncover.
*We cant afford it (Nothing happens)
*We can only make a small contribution (-gold)
*We'd be delighted! How much do you need? (-more gold)

Tis is all the player sees. My design have 4 of these events, with different rewards:
1. Failed expedition: The explores die, or fail to find anyting interesting. No reward.
2. The expedition have uncovered new plants and animals that could benefit our empire! Recive a number of plantable resources(units), similar to a great farmer, but can only plant one type of resource. e.g. Plantable resource (cow), plantable resource (hemp) etc. Number of resorces depends om how much money you gave the explorer.
3. The explorers have uncovered El dorado!/One of the seven cities of gold/ etc. Recieve a number of Treassure units.
4. The explorers have found a lost world, filled with all manner of strange beasts. Recieve a number of plantable dinosaur resources.

The first two events would be the most common outcomes, but rarer results should be comon enough to make it a tough decission wheter or not to provide funding. Events like these could add a bit of randomness and unpredictability to the game in regards to more alternative stuff.

I like the second. In fact it may inspire a solution to the great farmer problem. We have specific units to plant each of the plant and animal resources. Then this event of a spy event can give a limited number of those people. It stops the spaming of resources but enables you to get hold of resources you may not have in your empire.

Well the problem is we have reached our resource limit. So a dinosaur resource would not be possible. However we could have it where they find a fossil site. It would be a terrain feature and not a resource.

I still don't think we have reached a limit. I think the change to how the font file is handled needs to be applied to he font_75 file as well.

EldrinFal
Sep 20, 2011, 09:52 AM
I had an attack of inspiration last night (Dinosaurs probably had something to do with it:D), and came up with using events to add alternative timeline stuff.

The idea is to have several events that are indistinguable for the player. As an example:

A famous explorer arrives at your court asking for government fundig for his most ambitious expedition yet. In return, he promises to give a part of any treassure he might uncover.
*We cant afford it (Nothing happens)
*We can only make a small contribution (-gold)
*We'd be delighted! How much do you need? (-more gold)

Tis is all the player sees. My design have 4 of these events, with different rewards:
1. Failed expedition: The explores die, or fail to find anyting interesting. No reward.
2. The expedition have uncovered new plants and animals that could benefit our empire! Recive a number of plantable resources(units), similar to a great farmer, but can only plant one type of resource. e.g. Plantable resource (cow), plantable resource (hemp) etc. Number of resorces depends om how much money you gave the explorer.
3. The explorers have uncovered El dorado!/One of the seven cities of gold/ etc. Recieve a number of Treassure units.
4. The explorers have found a lost world, filled with all manner of strange beasts. Recieve a number of plantable dinosaur resources.

The first two events would be the most common outcomes, but rarer results should be comon enough to make it a tough decission wheter or not to provide funding. Events like these could add a bit of randomness and unpredictability to the game in regards to more alternative stuff.

Ideas often spawn new ideas. That's the purpose of brainstorming. :goodjob:

steampunk1880
Sep 20, 2011, 11:09 AM
If by lost world you mean Lost World by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle then a successful expedition could spawn a dinosaur egg unit that could be used to build a unique wonder for happiness money and special dinosaur units a la mammoth trainer. As sci-fi goes the source material is not very hard anymore thanks to science moving on with the times the dinosaurs featured were from neither the same place or time and hadn't changed a bit from the fossil records. If you really, really want dinosaurs then then cloning plus some tech to represent gene manipulation for arts and entertainment (genetic artistry?) could net you the buildable "Jurassic Park" wonder since they're not really dinosaurs but rather recreations based on what we know and what is most marketable. That would be a way to stuff various "made" fantastic creatures in there too. Have you considered using build once World Units like the heroes of Fall From Heaven?

The lost world expedition really reminds me of The World of Jules Verne scenario from the Fantastic Worlds civ 2 expansion. I recall correctly you'd kill a T-Rex on a plateau in south america to trigger the event of some scientists bringing back gems and an egg netting you lots of money and one of the techs necessary to research From Earth To the Moon (by lunar cannon) to win the game.

Hydromancerx
Sep 20, 2011, 05:10 PM
I still don't think we have reached a limit. I think the change to how the font file is handled needs to be applied to he font_75 file as well.

Well we are like give or take 1 to 2 left open. However I think we should leave a little bit of a buffer in case we need to add something in the future (such as an alien resource). A dinosaur resource should be low priority since there are many other resources I wish we had before then that just had to be cut out, due to the limit. (ex. clay, papyrus, etc).

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 20, 2011, 05:57 PM
Well we are like give or take 1 to 2 left open. However I think we should leave a little bit of a buffer in case we need to add something in the future (such as an alien resource). A dinosaur resource should be low priority since there are many other resources I wish we had before then that just had to be cut out, due to the limit. (ex. clay, papyrus, etc).

Rubbish. The font problem is only occurring where the font_75 is being used. There is no problem with adding 20+ more resources if you don't mind the bit under the city being wrong.

Hydromancerx
Sep 20, 2011, 06:33 PM
Rubbish. The font problem is only occurring where the font_75 is being used. There is no problem with adding 20+ more resources if you don't mind the bit under the city being wrong.

Didn't other graphics mess up like the "red dot" and such? Or missing graphics when your city turns :mad: or :yuck:?

Koshling
Sep 20, 2011, 08:41 PM
Rubbish. The font problem is only occurring where the font_75 is being used. There is no problem with adding 20+ more resources if you don't mind the bit under the city being wrong.

I still have not managed to pin down what exactly was done to resolve the other issue, so I'm not sure how to fix the font_75 problem, but I'll try to get back to that again soonish.

robomani
Oct 05, 2011, 05:33 AM
I know that resources can speed up tech but can tech be set to require X resource to be able search, if so it could be a good idea to link some of the to such resources or just make tech very costly with great reductions with the right resources.

For example riding tech could need an animal resource to be learn, how could I learn to ride if I don't have animals to practice? You could still learn it by tech trading but would require something to learn it by yourself.

Else You could just set the tech cost very high with huge reduction for all animal resource that can be used for riding.

By linking tech to resources it would help the process of civ developing differently depending of what is available or not to them you already started with vicinity building and would be a way to get access to alternate timelines.

climat
Oct 05, 2011, 06:19 AM
I don't like the idea of limiting techs, especially military techs.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 05, 2011, 06:40 AM
I know that resources can speed up tech but can tech be set to require X resource to be able search, if so it could be a good idea to link some of the to such resources or just make tech very costly with great reductions with the right resources.

For example riding tech could need an animal resource to be learn, how could I learn to ride if I don't have animals to practice? You could still learn it by tech trading but would require something to learn it by yourself.

Else You could just set the tech cost very high with huge reduction for all animal resource that can be used for riding.

By linking tech to resources it would help the process of civ developing differently depending of what is available or not to them you already started with vicinity building and would be a way to get access to alternate timelines.

You can link a tech to a building and the building to a resource, but you can't do it directly. Unfortunately, all techs are now required, so this would not work in C2C.

Thunderbrd
Oct 09, 2011, 03:27 PM
I'm just going to throw this out there... hopefully not interrupting any great discussions or derailing any to say this but:

I've often thought it would be way cool to mod this mod with an option for a whole realm of Fantasy vs Sci-fi tech, building and unit developments.

At some point on the tech tree, you must choose whether to be a Magic or Science based society and once you've made that choice, you can't develop techs from the other branch of the tree until you reach a certain futuristic point where science figures out that magic can be explained or magic figures out that it really was a type of science all along.

steampunk1880
Oct 09, 2011, 05:19 PM
While that does sound cool and all, Hydro, the guardian of the alternate timeline project, has made it clear he prefers sticking to relatively hard science when speculating about the path not taken. Plus there's the fact that they haven't even really started on the alternate timeline stuff save for scraps in the stone age about megafauna training and likely won't touch this project again until the galactic age is done. That said, a fantasy counterpart timeline of magitech and technomages and other carp like that sounds like an awesome idea and if you can get a team of interested people who, unlike me, know how to mod civ 4, you could probably start a modmod project around it.

Hydromancerx
Oct 09, 2011, 06:37 PM
What steampunk said. We have so many projects going on its hard to choose which one to work one. Thus alternative timelines and galactic era stuff has been pushed back for more pressing features. This bad you don't know how to mod steampunk. This I bet would become your own area of expertise in C2C.

Thunderbrd
Oct 09, 2011, 09:13 PM
I WAS just throwing it out there for consideration. We have a LOT to do now without working on that right away. I don't think we even see the end in sight where such a project would seem like it was time to work on but maybe down the road a long ways, yes.

Hydromancerx
Oct 10, 2011, 01:21 AM
Yeah the more you try to pin down what needs to be done, more ideas spring up to do.

steampunk1880
Oct 10, 2011, 02:39 AM
We'll there's always brainstorming that isn't making up a couple dozen new technologies and the buildings and units to go with it times the number of alternate timelines:

Precisely how might a human player, let alone an AI might even begin to travel down an alternate path?

How, once the path has been chosen, might a player or AI be prevented from doing all the techs in the other path too? Or should, for example, a retro space age civilization be able to research and trade information age technologies?

Can this choice be coded to be attached to a building that allows alternate timeline techs to be researched and, if we decide to go with exclusivity, in some way makes certain techs impossible to research or receive from trading.
-would it be a national wonder, a world wonder with only a few uses, a team project, or am I leading the question?

Erm, I guess it's my idea that it would be building attached, some wonder representative of a breakthrough one way or the other so monumental that it wrenches history down a new path. I honestly have no idea if this is even possible and if the really smart modders say no can do then there goes my ideas down the hole. That said, here are my ideas. I have a million of them.

- I've already suggested that to go from classical period to ancient golden age instead of the dark ages of feudalism and such one should build a particularly fancy center of learning to revitalize interest in the natural philosophies instead of all the introspection and theology that characterized the middle ages (at least in Europe)

-Is da Vinci age really going to be a thing? It seems even more Eurocentric than the whole dark ages vs ancient golden age dichotomy. Maybe it could be a mini age of some sort that building Da Vinci's workshop would give you access to a slew of unique units from a few ordinary renaissance and imperial age techs in the vein of megafauna domestication. I'm thinking building Da Vinci's workshop wonder would give you a building in all your cities with a small science boost and the ability to build special more powerful Da Vinci type units as you get the techs
--speaking of megafauna domestication, instead of how it currently is now I suggest a similar system to the one above where building the megafauna domestication world wonder (of which only, say, five are allowed to be built) gives you megafauna trainer buildings in all your cities that let you build your zebra chariots and zebra knights and giraffe archers and war mammoths when you get the prerequisite technologies. That way you aren't restricted (unrealistically) to building those special units only in the city where you built the specific wonder.

-Steampunk: steam power, 12 mathematics academies built in your cities, and copper (for the gears) will prompt Babbage to build his DIFFERENCE ENGINE to eliminate human error in computing logarithm tables. The rest is (alternate) history.
*From Wikipedia: Mathematical Tables*
"Mechanical special-purpose computers known as difference engines were proposed in the 19th century to tabulate polynomial approximations of logarithmic functions – i.e. to compute large logarithmic tables. This was motivated mainly by errors in logarithmic tables made by the human 'computers' of the time."

-According to Hydro's flow chart you can get to the RETRO SPACE AGE from either the atomic age or the steampunk age.
--I'm thinking that you can get to the retro space age from the atomic age by completing Project Orion national wonder which requires Rocketry and needs to be built in the same place as the Manhattan Project. One more thing. PROJECT ORION SHOULD BE MADE OBSOLETE BY ELECTRONICS. As in once you know electronics, you no longer can build Project Orion. One thing's for sure about the retro space age: everything runs on vacuum tubes. Infinite energy from atomic power and a focus on space (the final frontier) means not much effort is made at miniaturization and efficiency.
--Now from the Steampunk era if we're going the Jules Verne route of presumed functionality I think we can get away with a *chuckle* moon cannon. From Earth To The Moon would be some late Steampunk world wonder requiring some crazy Artillery tech equivalent for the propulsion and submarines tech equivalent as a basis for self contained environmental systems. If we don't want to keep our scifi extra hard and avoid touching Jules Verne and Mad Science (which would in my opinion basically gut the alt history) I suppose it could be a rocket launched from a giant zeppelin.

Um. What I'm trying to say is: focus on where it starts and where it ends, and leave off filling in the middle until later.

Hydromancerx
Oct 10, 2011, 04:38 AM
Well I have said before that I think these alternate timeline tech should be unlocked if you have a combo of wonders related to that themed era. Such as ...

? + ? = Ancient "Punk"

Archimedes' Workshop + Plato's Academy = Classical "Punk"

? + ? = Medieval "Punk"

Leonardo's Workshop + Copernicus Observatory = "Cogpunk"

Isaac Newton's College + Benjamin Franklin's Workshop (NEW) = "Clockpunk"

Edison's Workshop + Tesla Laboratory (NEW) = "Steampunk"

Einstein's Laboratory + Walt Disney's Studio (NEW) = "Diesel Punk"

Silicon Valley + Stephen Hawking's University (NEW) = "Cyberpunk"

You get the idea. These are not set in stone, just loose brainstorming. More ideas would be helpful.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 10, 2011, 04:00 PM
How, once the path has been chosen, might a player or AI be prevented from doing all the techs in the other path too? Or should, for example, a retro space age civilization be able to research and trade information age technologies?

You can make specific technologies untradable. So the start of starting tech of a "punk" branch can be marked "can't trade". It can require a building. We can always make it so that building can't be built if you have started down a branch that would preclude the "punk" branch. So it is possible but needs some definition and more thought.

--speaking of megafauna domestication, instead of how it currently is now I suggest a similar system to the one above where building the megafauna domestication world wonder (of which only, say, five are allowed to be built) gives you megafauna trainer buildings in all your cities that let you build your zebra chariots and zebra knights and giraffe archers and war mammoths when you get the prerequisite technologies. That way you aren't restricted (unrealistically) to building those special units only in the city where you built the specific wonder

It is possible to have a wonder which can only be built once for a nation but can be built x times in total. Someone was asking just this question on the general forum recently and gave the solution. Allowing all your cities to build the units would also be easy. (Not that I think it is necessarily a good idea) Give us a bit more detail on your thoughts. Lets start with the Zebra since that is one that doesn't fit the model at the moment.

Zebra herd
. built by subdued zebra
. small bonus to city
. increases speed for constructing zebra units

Zebra Tradition (wonder max 4 only one can be built by a nation/team)
. Must be built at 40 latitude or less
. requires two zebra herds
. provides free Zebra Trainer in all cities

Zebra Trainer
. required to build zebra units

Zebra downside
. (mild) takes longer to build horse units - "they are untrainable", "I don't look as good on a horse as a zebra", "they smell funny".... :)
. (extreme) no horse units until cavalry

Is this the sort of thing you are thinking?

steampunk1880
Oct 10, 2011, 05:44 PM
For mini alternate timelines, such as megafauna and da vinci that don't technically require a whole slew of new technologies I was thinking it would be best represented by a wonder, moderately difficult to build, that can be constructed X amount of times. Limit one per team.

For Da Vinci, or better yet a nonspecific clockpunk age, the wonder would be Great Inventor's Workshop, available with invention plus seven mathematics academies, plus seven engineering schools plus 4 alchemist, can be built 5 times, limit one per team. This would give a free building called Tradition of Great Inventions in all of your cities which acts as a marker unlocking a slew of different units and buildings by being a prerequisite for them. Such things could be:
-clockwork Armored Cart: tracked unit, strength 25, movement 2, starts with blitz causes collateral damage up to 15%. -25% strength vs gunpowder units, -50% to attack cities. requires clockworks and gunpowder, requires copper and sulfur. Upgrades to early tank. Basically an anti-cavalry cavalry and can kill arquebusiers and sometimes musketmen but is murdered by riflemen and grenadiers. And the city attacking penalty not only prevents you from steamrolling your neighbors with your uberweapon but makes sense considering how narrow the streets were back then.
-Scout Glider: flying unit with no ability to attack, only recon. Same range as early fighter. Can see invisible units. Available at physics requiring sails. Upgrades to early fighter.
-clockwork workshop, available at clockwork, provides production % bonus in addition to or replacing town clock.

I could go on, spending several hours to flesh out the whole clockpunk mini-age but I feel that other people should contribute ideas too and you wanted to know about megafauna.

There are two ways to go about this. There are more of course but I'm only talking about two here. But first:
Is the mammoth resource ever placed on the map by the map generator or do you have to get absurdly lucky by first having the mammoth animal unit even show up and then having the even more unlikely event of it becoming a resource upon defeat?

The two ways:
A. The way it is now and the way you are suggesting with the zebra trainer is to keep the different megafauna as separate wonders. If that's what you guys prefer than what you have for the zebra trainer is perfect as is and can easily be translated to all the other megafauna units. The only problem is like you said, you can build all of these special units everywhere.
B. I call the hierarchical method. At Megafauna Domestication tech comes a wonder called (tada) Megafauna Domestication, can be built five times limit one per team. It requires two of any (zebra herd, mammoth herd, rhino herd, giraffe herd, bear cage, deer herd, bison herd) in the city. Gives building called "(Achievement) Domesticated Megafauna 10pts" or something less silly in all your cities. The building acts as a tag by being prerequisite to building zebra, mammoth, rhino, giraffe, bear, bison or deer trainer. The ability to build each of these depends on your surroundings.
-Deer Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, deer and forest in vicinity.
-Bear Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, fish and forest in vicinity
-Zebra Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, horse and savannah in vicinity
-Mammoth Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, tundra in vicinity (right now it's too hard to get mammoth resource in my opinion or that would be the second requirement
-Giraffe Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, deer and savannah in vicinity
-Rhino Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, elephant and savannah in vicinity
-Bison Trainer requires Domesticated Megafauna building, bison and plains in vicinity.
This method preserves regional uniqueness but allows special units to be built everywhere that it makes sense to do so, instead of being limited to the city where the wonder is built. It also makes it possible for more than one civ to know the joy of shooting people from atop a giraffe.

Either way I think it is equally important each of the alternate riding animals continues to be upgraded alongside horses all the way up to cavalry where they're all replaced by helicopters. The way it is now, zebra knights are the best you can get. At each level they should be comparable to their horsey counterpart but with distinctions:
-Deer: minus two strength, plus one first strike, bonus forest strength and movement
example line: deer spearman, deer archer, deer knight, deer cuirassier, deer cavalry
-Zebra: minus one strength, plus one movement, bonus plains strength and movement
example line: zebra chariot zebra archer, zebra knight, zebra curiasser, zebra cavalry
-Bear: plus one strength, collateral damage up to 15%, bonus forest strength and movement
example line: bear rider, bear archer, bear knight... you get the picture
-Rhino: plus two strength, minus one movement, collateral damage up to 15%, bonus plains and savannah movement.
-Mammoth: plu....

Distinguishing between them has already been taken care of hasn't it... *sigh*

mammoth spearman, mammoth archer, siege mammoth, mammoth bombard

giraffe rider, giraffe archer, armored giraffe, giraffe curiassier, giraffe gunman. give them all sentry 1

bison rider, bison archer, armored bison, bison curiassier, bison cavalry.

Hydromancerx
Oct 10, 2011, 06:41 PM
I could go on, spending several hours to flesh out the whole clockpunk mini-age but I feel that other people should contribute ideas too and you wanted to know about megafauna.

This is why he have this topic. Specifics on the unit stats, building stats etc are great. Its much easier to make stuff if we have a clear plan on how to do things. This seems to be your area of expertise, so continue brainstorming! :goodjob:

Also possible models to use would be great. At the moment we appear to be limited to what graphics are available.

B. I call the hierarchical method. At Megafauna Domestication tech comes a wonder called (tada) Megafauna Domestication, can be built five times limit one per team. It requires two of any (zebra herd, mammoth herd, rhino herd, giraffe herd, bear cage, deer herd, bison herd) in the city. Gives building called "(Achievement) Domesticated Megafauna 10pts" or something less silly in all your cities. The building acts as a tag by being prerequisite to building zebra, mammoth, rhino, giraffe, bear, bison or deer trainer. The ability to build each of these depends on your surroundings.

Well remember there are also Hunter Building. For instance a "Zebra Hunter's Camp" requires Horses + Ivory in the city vicinity. The "Zebra Hunter's Camp" should be a requirement for the "Zebra Trainer" along with the "Herd - Zebra".

steampunk1880
Oct 10, 2011, 08:34 PM
For Clockpunk

Building: Automaton Clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton_clock
requires clockwork
desc: An automaton clock or automata clock is a type of striking clock featuring automatons. Clocks like these were built from the Middle Ages through to Victorian times in Europe. Our tradition of inventive genius makes them far more common in our country than in others. The automatons usually perform on the hour, half-hour or quarter-hour, usually to strike bells.
Stats: 5% maintenance, 20% hammers, 1 happy, 3 culture, allows one citizen to become engineer.
Upgrades from town clock.

Building: Orchestrion Theater
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggmain/doublespreads/ggcoll03_018_019.html
Requires: realism
desc: An orchestrion is a generic name for a machine that plays music and is designed to sound like an orchestra or band. Orchestrions may be operated by means of a large pinned cylinder or by a music roll and less commonly book music. The sound is usually produced by pipes, though they will be voiced differently to those found in a pipe organ, as well as percussion instruments. Many orchestrions contain a piano as well. In our age of clockwork, orchestrion theaters comprise enormous wall sized machines, usually complete with mechanical dolls moving in time to the music, and seats from which citizens can appreciate the works of our music roll composers.
Stats: 1 happy, 3 culture, 1 happy per 20% culture rate, .5 happy per 20% science rate, can turn 1 citizen into artist, one citizen into scientist, one citizen into engineer, one happy with dye.
Upgrades from opera house

Building: Step Reckoner Manufactory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepped_Reckoner
Requires: scientific method, copper
Desc: Step Reckoners are portable cranked mechanical calculators that can add, subtract, multiply and divide. They're a real step up from the abacus when it comes to calculating arithmetic. Other less inventive countries claim that the fiddly bits are impossible to make reliably but we managed just fine.
Stats: plus 3 gold; provides Good (Mechanical Calculator) in all cities trade route yadda yadda

Building: Good (Mechanical Calculator)
Stats: +1%hammers, +3% science;

For Steampunk

Difference Engine (Wonder limit 5, one per team)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine
Reuires: steam power, 12 mathematics academies, copper
Desc: They say the inventor Charles Babbage loved mathematics more than people and got the idea to build a mechanical computer after looking through a book of human generated mathematical tables rife with error and thought a machine could do better. Whatever the reason, a decade after he finished his difference engine, he constructed his breakthrough programmable Analytical Engine, an event thought by historians to be the ultimate origin of our age of steam.
Stats: STARTS CIVILIZATION DOWN STEAMPUNK PATH, +50% science in city, Constructed 100% faster with Good (Mechanical Calculator)

Edit: @ hydro: forgot about those. You could use zebra hunter's camp and herd zebra as an either or requirement for zebra trainer but don't want it to depend on buildings made exclusively by animals like deer and bears.

rightfuture
Oct 10, 2011, 09:09 PM
In ancient greece and egypt, cog work machinery and steam technology were used in temples.
http://wn.com/Category:Ancient_Greek_inventors
Some where there was a great History channel show that explored the possibilities of ancient world technology. I will have to find a link to it.

Antikythera mechanism -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
is an ancient mechanical computer designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was recovered in 1900–1901 from the Antikythera wreck. Its significance and complexity were not understood until decades later. Its time of construction is now estimated between 150 and 100 BC.
could spark a technology being discovered early?

Heron's Aeolipile -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_engine
A steam engine invented in (c. 10–70 AD)
Imagine if it could have inspired technology quicker?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

Leonardo DaVinici's machines could have inspired technology earlier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_DaVinci

Engineering and inventions
A design for a flying machine, (c. 1488) Institut de France, Paris
During his lifetime Leonardo was valued as an engineer. In a letter to Ludovico il Moro he claimed to be able to create all sorts of machines both for the protection of a city and for siege. When he fled to Venice in 1499 he found employment as an engineer and devised a system of moveable barricades to protect the city from attack. He also had a scheme for diverting the flow of the Arno River, a project on which Niccolò Machiavelli also worked. Leonardo's journals include a vast number of inventions, both practical and impractical. They include musical instruments, hydraulic pumps, reversible crank mechanisms, finned mortar shells, and a steam cannon.

In 1502, Leonardo produced a drawing of a single span 720-foot (220 m) bridge as part of a civil engineering project for Ottoman Sultan Beyazid II of Constantinople. The bridge was intended to span an inlet at the mouth of the Bosporus known as the Golden Horn. Beyazid did not pursue the project, because he believed that such a construction was impossible. Leonardo's vision was resurrected in 2001 when a smaller bridge based on his design was constructed in Norway. On May 17, 2006, the Turkish government decided to construct Leonardo's bridge to span the Golden Horn.

For much of his life, Leonardo was fascinated by the phenomenon of flight, producing many studies of the flight of birds, including his c. 1505 Codex on the Flight of Birds, as well as plans for several flying machines, including a light hang glider and a machine resembling a helicopter. The British television station Channel Four commissioned a documentary Leonardo's Dream Machines, for broadcast in 2003. Leonardo's machines were built and tested according to his original designs.Some of those designs proved a success, whilst others fared less well when practically tested.
What if??

steampunk1880
Oct 10, 2011, 09:13 PM
@ rightfuture: ok how would those translate into useable buildings/units and where would they be situated? ancient golden age?

@ hoskuld: and i forgot to ask, what would prevent trading between tech lines past that initial tech. Would all steampunk era tech require the initial technology as a prerequisite?. And, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping a steampunk civ from learning industrial age tech since those wont have an untradable marker unless the Prevent All Tech Trading option is switched from the setup.

steampunk1880
Oct 11, 2011, 05:25 PM
Also possible models to use would be great. At the moment we appear to be limited to what graphics are available.

Has anyone tried to make use of the unit requests thread in the unit graphics forums? I can go beg for attention there now but it seems to be at the whim of the people who are there. It would be best if we could entice someone over here as our graphics guy/gal.

BTW there's a unit: mermaid in that forum in case you needed that for the fantasy module.

rightfuture
Oct 11, 2011, 06:02 PM
@ steampunk1880
I will definitely think these out and suggest some ideas

As far as alternate timelines go I think there are two distinct ideas that could be separately developed.
#1 Alternate Eras - groups of technologies that are switched on/off by an event, like a cataclysm: could be a religious event like a dark age, or an apocalyptic event like an asteroid strike, a nuclear event (not even a total one could be interesting like the tv show - Jericho), or a major disaster event that sets back civilization. New technologies could be coping mechanisms or interesting new explorations that come from an alien invasion, or discovery of a lost world, or new planet in advanced ages. It could be a toggle feature for those who want to play with them.
Technologies could be lost in a group randomly, or not lost at all. A Event like an old library discovery could bring most of technology back, and a major recovery could switch off the New Era technologies or leave them as part of the new way the world works. An event or a technological discovery could move you out of the alternate era with or without the enabled techs.

#2 Anachronistic technology - some technology is discovered out of sequence, like the wheel discovered early, or gunpowder. This could lead to some Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court scenarios, or what if World War II had modern technology (like the movie The Final Countdown). Lots of what if technology possibilities.

Just some ideas, What do you think?

EldrinFal
Oct 11, 2011, 06:31 PM
BTW there's a unit: mermaid in that forum in case you needed that for the fantasy module.

As opposed to the mermaid already in C2C? ;)

Necratoid
Oct 11, 2011, 06:44 PM
I can fix a few issues here. *Age* Punk is a project not a wonder. There are a few wonders that can't be built if another on the list is in that city... ramp that up to a civilization and you can have the exclusive paths thing going. However, instead of making certain techs just unresearchable... make most of the stuff require the Mutally Exclusive Projects (MEPs) to be active. If you do research another MEP's tech through brute force research, theft, trading, or gaining it through concuring or and event... then you get to access to some the tech abilities. Promotions vs. that *Age* Punk. A few bonuses that apply to stuff not even relivant to the Civ that founds it... which is partial adaption to that tech via your own tech base.

Rewrite the tech chart so a cluster of tech paths reach the same exact pivital techs while allowing complete bypass of the other tech trees. Just to spice things up... some *Age* Punk tech trees cross over to make entirely new hybrid *Ages* possible. This means rewards for getting techs from other trees. Perhaps crossover sub *Ages*. *Ages* are only limited by Projects and your cumulative tech bases.

----

Something else said early I want to touch upon, the New 'stone age' theory. The stopping block is that what is learned can't be unlearned. What you can do to bypass that is don't unlearn them. Use that Maximum combatability save type to canabilize the old maps (natural and Civ altered) to make a new map for a new game.

If the last cycle ended in Nuclear Fire, te map is full of toxic waste and leveled cities. Gray Goo over ran everything... have Gray Goo (damage dealing terrain) everywhere... to stop it old power sources must fail or be destroyed and the mess cleaned up. Bioweapon or nanotech make Zombies? Clear them out. Getting enough salvage together to make a flamethrower unit is a national priority. The trick is to make national units that don't auto repair/heal and abuse the (fake) resource system to have parts and goods to repair them to certain levels. These resources dependant on random old tech and supply catches, depletable ones at that, you don't get mines till you rediscover them... instead scavenger units sit on a resource sight and 'mine' that. If you don't have someone mining units of said resources, your suplies run low. Salvaged buildings, slvaged of several turns by workers and scavengers, mean kit bashed psuedo buildings of old stuff that works... poorly.

A new civics includes resorce distribution... priority towards keeping the computers in the bunker (city) alive or manpower going to farming or land reclaimation. A basic outline, but a place to start.

---

The actualy reason dinosaurs are out is that the big ones require a different oxygen, CO2 build that current animals. Same reason giant super bugs don't work... they sufficate below a certain oxygen threshhold and can't get any bigger.

rightfuture
Oct 11, 2011, 07:20 PM
@Necratoid - I agree that some things that are learned cannot be easily unlearned. But with a collapse of civilization due to disaster or invasion, some things could be (temporarily) forgotten. Infrastructure collapse, could lead to the loss of complex skills, like power plant making, or certain technologies like how to make a space shuttle. An apocalypse can temporarily make certain technologies inaccessible, for example, a nationwide power outage could stop internet access, or access to a set of technologies from a certain point.

@steampunk1880 - I also don't think all ideas for alternate timelines should be buildings, some of these like the antikythera mechanism should possibly be a technology that lead to an advancing of eras or technologies. I'm just trying to think with y'all out loud.

I'm not too fond of dinosaurs or the idea of magic, but it could be a toggle option at the start of the game, and could provide alternative gameplay to those who want something more fantastic.
A lot of fiction is written off of this concept. The idea of playing a world with implications inspired by Jurrasic Park, or Harry Harrision's East of Eden series, where humans coexisted with dinosaurs, would be very fun to play as an option for many people I bet.
Eventually magic is just technology sufficiently advanced enough, like Arthur C Clarke said. Could provide possibilities at the end of the galactic era if people want to enable it then as well. Projector holodeck technology and nanotechnology could lead to technology which altered reality enough where people could exhibit "magic" in the real world. Techno-mages from Babylon 5, Jack Chalker's Four Lords of the Diamond series, uses technology to enable magic like effects with limitations in a very interesting way.

I would still prefer to focus on plausible science fiction, but some measure of fantasy options could be explored as a optional features which many people would like to explore, like alternative timelines, to determine realism of play. It would also give you all options to separate different units like mermaids, and less plausible technologies for those who want to see them, from those who don't.

There is an awful lot of alternate timeline fiction and science fiction out there. Someone should google it for more ideas on how it can be resolved.
I mentioned elsewhere in this forum that my favorite book is a time travel book where humanity goes back and rewrites history with interesting consequences.
It is Pastwatch: the Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Orson Scott Card
http://www.amazon.com/Pastwatch-Christopher-Orson-Scott-Card/dp/0812508645/

If timetravel could be figured out with past world saves reloading map, with current civ tech it would be very interesting....
Just some ideas, what do y'all think?

Necratoid
Oct 11, 2011, 09:00 PM
@rightfuture... I was refering to something mentioned like 2 pages back... I suggested the canabalized map new game thing as the problem with a 'new stone age' thing was that the game engine for Civ4 can't make you unlearn techs.

As for magic... "Any technology, no matter how primative, is magic to those that don't understand it".

So far this thread has treated the word 'magic' as a complete and total Gloobleflarg.

What is a Gloobleflarg, you ask? Any key term in a discussion or debate that no one ever gets around to defining. I find them utterly aggrivating. In this case I subspect an *Age* punk based around bluffing and theatrics as 'magic' wouldn't get a thumbs down.... a flare attached to a grenade and a spell which has the verbal components "Willie Pete sic'em!" Wouldn't get shotdown, I'd think.

I personally shoot large dinosaurs down due to them requiring a different atmosphere than anything else. Short answer... define what it is you hate. Stop tossing Gloobleflargs at the discusion.

rightfuture
Oct 11, 2011, 09:28 PM
@Necratoid - sorry about mistaken identity on the point. thought it was in reference to something I said.


I think magic shouldn't be avoided either. But as a fantasy concept, it should be addressed in a careful, alternative way so it would not spoil those focused on history or realism.
Galactic Era technology becomes at some point, magic. Many things become possible.

Koshling
Oct 12, 2011, 06:33 AM
@Necratoid - sorry about mistaken identity on the point. thought it was in reference to something I said.


I think magic shouldn't be avoided either. But as a fantasy concept, it should be addressed in a careful, alternative way so it would not spoil those focused on history or realism.
Galactic Era technology becomes at some point, magic. Many things become possible.

'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'
- Authur C Clark

Necratoid
Oct 12, 2011, 03:20 PM
Hate that quote... its meaningless on its own. This is because 'magic' is a completely undefined term... A Gloobleflarg. While it probably, even likely, has a meaning in context... its treated as a statement in the wind. Granted this is a quote from the same guy who wrote the 'three laws of robotics' for a book in which they self destruct spectacularly... and people want impliment said laws, as is, and proclaim this as a good idea. These people miss the point of the book entirely.

Its also mostly repeated by people who treat 'Science' as a religion and 'magic' as the terminate on sight 'devil' of that religion. Real science is a series of processes for processing, gathering, and interpreting data, then testing the interpretations and testing them for repeatablity. A repeating cycle. Its entirely possible to discover something useful you simply can't explain at all. It works fine, repeatedly.... you just can't figure out 'why?' it works. Yet. This is Real science.

For the Science as a religion people, 'Science' is defined as things 'We of the great and one true religion of Science' claim understanding of or at least the priests do anyway. The rank and file can regurgitate it by wrote Its canon that is true and therefore 'Science'. 'Magic' is anything the priests haven't claimed dominion over with 'Science'. 'Magic' is bad and evil and malignant and no good at all... because its not 'Science'

That is the issue I have here. People proclaiming to 'Science' religion. In the past priests of religions loved this trick. The greeks had 'magic' temple doors that opened when you gave your burnt offering. What was happening is the burnt offering heated up water and the steam opened the doors trough expansion in a sealed container. Once the offering burnt off the fire cooled and the steam cooled to water... so the doors mystically closed on their own. They also had coin operated vending machines and automated story telling machines.

In short, the Greeks actually did the steam punk and clockwork thing before the Romans took over. They also had a flying Zeus statue... apparently it involved a room and statue and lots of magnets.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 12, 2011, 03:25 PM
'three laws of robotics' is Asimov not Clark

Necratoid
Oct 12, 2011, 03:44 PM
Fair enough, but the main point stands.

steampunk1880
Oct 12, 2011, 05:42 PM
A call for input on units and buildings to attach to a clockpunk age!

if there are no objections I'd really like to try to use the method by which all special untis and buildings have prerequisite building "Tradition of Great Inventions" which is given free by Great Inventor's Workshop Wonder

please post any ideas you have WITH tech/resource requirements, WITH detailed unit/building stats, WITH a small description to go into the civilopedia.

stuff we already have

Unit: Clockwork Armored Cart
Stats: tracked unit, strength 25, movement 2, starts with blitz causes collateral damage up to 15%. -25% strength vs gunpowder units, -50% to attack cities. requires clockworks and gunpowder and Tradition of Great Inventions, requires copper and sulfur. Upgrades to early tank.
Civilopedia: Clad in thick but light copper plating these clockwork terrors of the renaissance are a product of fantastic inventive thought inspired by the great inventors of the past. Use them to smash infantry and cavalry in the field but don't expect it to be much use in the narrow city streets.

Unit:Scout Glider
Stats:flying unit with no ability to attack, only recon. Same range as early fighter. Can see invisible units. Requires physics, sails and Tradition of Great Inventions. Upgrades to early fighter.
Civilopedia: Taking a cue from the soaring type of bird, these canvas gliders built by our inventive geniuses can be held aloft for hours by thermal updrafts giving their pilots a clear lay of the land and our generals a valuable resource in scouting.

Building: Automaton Clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton_clock
requires Clockwork, Tradition of Great Invention
desc: An automaton clock or automata clock is a type of striking clock featuring automatons. Clocks like these were built from the Middle Ages through to Victorian times in Europe. Our tradition of inventive genius makes them far more common in our country than in others. The automatons usually perform on the hour, half-hour or quarter-hour, usually to strike bells.
Stats: 5% maintenance, 20% hammers, 1 happy, 3 culture, allows one citizen to become engineer.
Upgrades from town clock.

Building: Orchestrion Theater
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggma...3_018_019.html
Requires: Realism, Tradition of Great Invention
desc: An orchestrion is a generic name for a machine that plays music and is designed to sound like an orchestra or band. Orchestrions may be operated by means of a large pinned cylinder or by a music roll and less commonly book music. The sound is usually produced by pipes, though they will be voiced differently to those found in a pipe organ, as well as percussion instruments. Many orchestrions contain a piano as well. In our age of clockwork, orchestrion theaters comprise enormous wall sized machines, usually complete with mechanical dolls moving in time to the music, and seats from which citizens can appreciate the works of our music roll composers.
Stats: 1 happy, 3 culture, 1 happy per 20% culture rate, .5 happy per 20% science rate, can turn 1 citizen into artist, one citizen into scientist, one citizen into engineer, one happy with dye.
Upgrades from opera house

Building: Step Reckoner Manufactory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepped_Reckoner
Requires: Scientific Method, copper, Tradition of Great Invention
Desc: Step Reckoners are portable cranked mechanical calculators that can add, subtract, multiply and divide. They're a real step up from the abacus when it comes to calculating arithmetic. Other less inventive countries claim that the fiddly bits are impossible to make reliably but we managed just fine.
Stats: plus 3 gold; provides Good (Mechanical Calculator) in all cities trade route yadda yadda

Building: Good (Mechanical Calculator)
Stats: +1%hammers, +3% science;


Try to keep things balanced.

Koshling
Oct 12, 2011, 05:52 PM
Hate that quote... its meaningless on its own. This is because 'magic' is a completely undefined term... A Gloobleflarg. While it probably, even likely, has a meaning in context... its treated as a statement in the wind. Granted this is a quote from the same guy who wrote the 'three laws of robotics' for a book in which they self destruct spectacularly... and people want impliment said laws, as is, and proclaim this as a good idea. These people miss the point of the book entirely.

Its also mostly repeated by people who treat 'Science' as a religion and 'magic' as the terminate on sight 'devil' of that religion. Real science is a series of processes for processing, gathering, and interpreting data, then testing the interpretations and testing them for repeatablity. A repeating cycle. Its entirely possible to discover something useful you simply can't explain at all. It works fine, repeatedly.... you just can't figure out 'why?' it works. Yet. This is Real science.

For the Science as a religion people, 'Science' is defined as things 'We of the great and one true religion of Science' claim understanding of or at least the priests do anyway. The rank and file can regurgitate it by wrote Its canon that is true and therefore 'Science'. 'Magic' is anything the priests haven't claimed dominion over with 'Science'. 'Magic' is bad and evil and malignant and no good at all... because its not 'Science'

That is the issue I have here. People proclaiming to 'Science' religion. In the past priests of religions loved this trick. The greeks had 'magic' temple doors that opened when you gave your burnt offering. What was happening is the burnt offering heated up water and the steam opened the doors trough expansion in a sealed container. Once the offering burnt off the fire cooled and the steam cooled to water... so the doors mystically closed on their own. They also had coin operated vending machines and automated story telling machines.

In short, the Greeks actually did the steam punk and clockwork thing before the Romans took over. They also had a flying Zeus statue... apparently it involved a room and statue and lots of magnets.

Actually what it means is that something achieved in a way you are totally unequiped to understand might as well be magic as anything. It is inexplicable within the confines of current experience. One explanation is as good as another in that context. See also 'outside context problem' (Ian M Banks)

EldrinFal
Oct 12, 2011, 05:59 PM
@steampunk1880

My suggestion is starting a whole new thread on your category so the ideas stay better contained and not lost amongst whatever else appears in this thread. ;)

steampunk1880
Oct 13, 2011, 06:21 AM
Would there be any objection to me starting a thread for brainstorming techs, wonders, buildings, units and overall ideas for the ancient golden age, steampunk, retro space age, biotech and nanotech/cyberpunk ages? A preview:

"This is a thread for brainstorming techs, wonders, buildings and units for the proposed alternate histories: Ancient Golden Age, Steampunk, Retro Space Age, Biotech, and Cyberpunk and debate on their overall design philosophy (IE. how they are different from their contemporary alternative)

Suggestions that are not objected to in 24 hours or whose objections have been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties go up on the list. Objects on the list will be credited to their original suggesters.

When making suggestions about technologies it is helpful but NOT necessary to also suggest what tech(s) the technology may come from and what it may lead to, what buildings, what wonders and what units might be attached to it but ask that you say what alt history it belongs in and include a civilopedia blurb about what it entails. Suggested format below:
Tech name - Intended Alt History
Requires:
Leads to:
Wonders:
Buildings:
Units:
Special effects:
Civilopedia:

When making suggestions about wonders it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a tech but we ask you to include other building and resource requirements, what alt history it belongs in, it's proposed effects, and a civilopedia blurb about it. Suggested format below:
Wonder name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/building/resource
Effects:
Civilopedia:

Buildings are similar
Building Name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/buildings/resources
Effects:
Civilopedia:

When making suggestions about units it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a tech but we ask you to include other building and resource requirements, what alt history it belongs in, a detailed account of the units stats including what category it is, and a civilopedia blurb about it.
Unit Name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/building/resource
Stats:unit type(flying, gunpowder, high tech)/strength, speed, first strikes/bonuses or penalties/free upgrades
Civilopedia:

The object is to get as many ideas up in a coherent list as possible and worry about putting them together later.

While we are brainstorming connections can be made in the following way:
Hey I think unit X belongs under tech Y. I agree. Me too. *relevant entries have been changed*
Hey I think tech 1 should lead to tech 2. I agree. Me too. *relevant entries have been changed*

Changes to existing entries are made in a similar fashion.
Hey I think Building A is too powerful/not powerful enough and should be This Way. I agree. Me too. Let's ask/PM the original contributor if he/she has any input about the proposed changes. Everyone agrees? *relevant entries have been changed*"
Hey I think Unit Alpha is redundant/no longer fits and should be removed. I agree. Me too. Let's ask/PM the original contributor how he/she feels about that. Everyone agrees? *entry deleted*

Following that would be a number of posts reserved for each of the ages to have their own spot.

Or a separate thread for each of the ages.

Necratoid
Oct 13, 2011, 05:38 PM
@Koshling, as true as that is... most people that quote that Clark quote use it wrong, at least in my experience. I already gave an example of the prime offenders I've encountered. They effectively meme'd the quote to gibberish.

Anyway, moving on... unless we have an *Age* of the 'Science' religion pop up, which with a 'new stone age' reboot game makes lots of sense. They knoww just enough to be dangerous, but not enough to be compitant.

The greatest example of an 'outside context problem' I can think of is the Cargo Cult. Basically after WWII natives on some islands stopped getting free stuffs from the US planes using the islands for air bases when the troops moved on. After the freebies stopped coming they got the idea they did something to offend the gods in the metal birds... and spent the next few decades building psuedo airfields and planes in an attempt to appease and lure back the gods and thier glorious metal birds full of free stuffs. In short a welfare based religion... though it can be argued they all have a side job as an accidental artist cult.

Again with a 'new stone age' mod a perfect type of thing if you added a single city Civ that talks to no one but keeps dropping in supply crates to the tribes and deals with extra pop by spending all its effort constantly building and launching off space ships that take large chunks out of the population. Maybe a fortified island with fixed borders and a fleet of end game ships and units. If they aren't building ships to dispose of extra population, they build random 'care packages' that area air dropped by an unlimited range unit. 'Care Package' drops are increased by that civic/religion and their terrain improvement for flat land with no trees... this improvement is a wooden/lashed together sticks and vegitation thing that looks like the dropper flying unit... though once you get a source of iron someone makes it out of metal (auto upgrades itself) and your concidered less in need of 'care packages'.

steampunk1880
Oct 14, 2011, 07:44 AM
If nobody objects I'll start making threads for brainstorming on possible (but not definitely included) techs, civics, wonders buildings and units for the Ancient Golden Age, Steampunk, Retro-future, biotech and nanotech/cybertech ages.

And then we can use this thread to talk about designing the game mechanisms to implement these ages when we get around it it

But first:
Hydro you have suggested using wonder combos or events to initiate alternate timelines. I've thought about that stuff and I offer a compromise? What if for every alternate timeline there were two wonders. Building either one triggers a Quest type event where you have to build x number of buildings before you reach a certain tech or other milestone. If you succeed, the event gives you the initial tech to the Alternate Timeline which, Ori says can be made to put a huge malus on all the techs of the corresponding Main Timeline. And something about teaching the AI to respond to xml tags so on the off chance that they succeed the event they aren't stuck trying to research a tech that now takes forever to get. If you own both wonders you get one free tech as a bonus.

A really rough example:
Retro Future Age
Triggering Wonder: Manhattan Project
Quest: build 10 bomb shelters before you know Electronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Other Wonder.

Triggering Wonder: Other Wonder
Quest: build 10 Other Building before you know Elelctronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Manhattan Project

Obviously needs work but illustrates the idea. I know it's not quite like your ideas but would ensure it happens only very rarely like you prefer (I think) and only happens with effort on the human players part and luck on the AI's part.
Question: how might you stop the two quests from interfering with each other.

One last thing. I was looking at the flowchart in the OP with the biotech age and the nano age somehow swapping back and forth and all leading to the galactic age and thought for a while on how that could be streamlined for gameplay. I had this idea that's almost certainly a bit of work and would alter the stuff you've already done so only if you guys really like it. I mean I think it's awesome or I wouldn't be entertained spending hours typing about it.

at the end of the Modern Age the tech tree branches in three ways: Biotech, Galactic Tech and Cybertech. If you research the first cybertech technology the biotech branch is blocked off via Ori's Method and vice versa each representing alternate mutually exclusive paths a future society may take.

The Cybertech line will focus early on robots, automated factories and quantum and optical computer stuff improving city output, then on cybernetic bodies and war mechs, then mind uploading leading to a SCIENCE VICTORY at the end via something like the Ascension Gate wonder themed to moving to cybernetic consciousness.

The Biotech line will focus early on cloning and environmental stuff improving terrain yield, then artificial life and bioweapons, then supermen leading to a SCIENCE VICTORY at the end via Ascension Gate wonder themed to biological perfection.

The Galatictic Line is not restricted one way or the other by how you choose to guide your future society because it focuses almost exclusively on technological developments of your society in space. The Arcologies will be included in this line to be available to both sides and for being more like achievements in physics and engineering than in your chosen homeworld society. Heavily pursuing the Galactic line will ultimately lead to SPACE VICTORY as you build and assemble the parts for an interdimensional colony ship (which is the Alpha Centauri ship by another name.)

Meanwhile the Retro-Future/Retro Space age (accessible from the early part of the modern age or from the end of the steampunk age) does it's own thing off to the side. Techs contemporary to the modern age would include improved atomic reactors, atomic cars, jetpacks and huge vacuum tube mainframes. This transitions into forbidden planet style robots, robot maids, automated houses of the future in the late modern and early bio/galactic/cyber ages, before ultimately culminating in The Jetsons Style arcologies and an abridged Buck Rodgers galactic age leading to another SPACE VICTORY with another interdimensional colony ship.

Perfection
Oct 14, 2011, 05:43 PM
Perfection is not biological it is electromechanical.

steampunk1880
Oct 16, 2011, 12:50 PM
Hydro you have suggested using wonder combos or events to initiate alternate timelines. I've thought about that stuff and I offer a compromise? What if for every alternate timeline there were two wonders. Building either one triggers a Quest type event where you have to build x number of buildings before you reach a certain tech or other milestone. If you succeed, the event gives you the initial tech to the Alternate Timeline which, Ori says can be made to put a huge malus on all the techs of the corresponding Main Timeline. And something about teaching the AI to respond to xml tags so on the off chance that they succeed the event they aren't stuck trying to research a tech that now takes forever to get. If you own both wonders you get one free tech as a bonus.

A really rough example:
Retro Future Age
Triggering Wonder: Manhattan Project
Quest: build 10 bomb shelters and 10 physics labs before you know Electronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Other Wonder.

Triggering Wonder: Other Wonder
Quest: build 10 Other Building and 10 other-other building before you know Electronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Manhattan Project
disclaimer: quote has been slightly modified

Hydro, Ori, I would some kind of tentative yes or no on this. Hydro because it's most likely him that will do most of the building work, and Ori because would want to know if it's really doable. It would be very helpful in desigining alternate histories by allowing me to suggest cutoff techs beyond which a civ going through an alternate history would no longer be able to research. For example, I would like to suggest that a steampunk civilization be able to learn military science, steel, steam power, thermodynamics and medicine but no further until they return with the first tier of modern technologies thus giving a better idea of what kinds technologies in the steampunk era we can start with(aerodynamics+improved steam engine=steam blimps, the first of the airship line), what tech's we'd need to mirror the industrial age but slightly differently(some kind of electricity related tech, steampunk sanitation) and what kinds we'd need to stop with to slide relatively smoothly into the modern era (steampunk-electromechanical computational engines-->modern-computers)

less important is approval on the second half of that post which would allow me to potentially start sorting the post modern techs we have now into bio, space, and cyber related and start filling in the gaps with appropriate techs to keep the two opposing sides relatively even from start to finish: ie. for most cybertech technologies there should be an equivalent biotech tech and vice versa with the difference being that, as a design philosophy, cybertech improves more in cities and biotech improves more in terrain.

Hydromancerx
Oct 16, 2011, 03:29 PM
Well I think we don't need to do a "cut-off" if one advances to the core tech line then any alternative timeline unit, building, etc should eventually get replaced by the standard ones. In other words all the alternative timelines do is allow for stuff to be access earlier, but they all eventuly upgrade into standard units and buildings.

steampunk1880
Oct 16, 2011, 03:55 PM
I don't have a clear idea in my mind how that would be put together to make for clean and fun gameplay. I do have a reasonably clear outline for how to handle it if it's a separate concurrent line parallel to the ordinary timeline. Such a place would have a clear point of starting and stopping and have a certain ease of design as in many cases one simply needs to more or less duplicate what's going on in the ordinary timeline but with an alternate timeline flavor. Are you saying that one would go through a series of steampunk techs, reach the end, and then find it necessary to back up and go through the industrial age anyway? I'm talking about replacing the industrial age for that civ what makes the effort to break with history with a different branching timeline, a separate yet similar path to the same goal of technological progress.

Hydromancerx
Oct 16, 2011, 04:10 PM
Well sort of. Steampunk should not replace the Industrial Era but unlock things you normally cannot get from that era. For instance you would have to discovery trains like normal but then could go beyond with the whole tracked locomotives, which would eventually upgrade into normal tanks. Thus the steampunk tanks would be weaker than normal tanks, but come much earlier.

Which would also allow for muptipul alternate timeline ages such as ...

Cogpunk Tank -> Steampunk Tank -> Early Tank

If you got a copunk tank but not steampunk tech then you would have to wait until normal tanks to upgrade that unit. Note that the Cogpunk Tank would be weaker than the Steampunk Tank.

steampunk1880
Oct 16, 2011, 09:24 PM
If it works like that then wouldnt a steampunk tank be just a mechanical verison of a cavalry unit you'd get around then? and a clockwork tank would be a curiasser, no a mailed knight? It look's cool but what's the point of going through the trouble of heading off on an alternate timeline when you'll have to hit the same points as everyone else eventually.

If I had to be completely honest I don't like that method of handling the concept of alternate paths technology could take. I don't think it uses the concept as fully as creating an entirely separate technological path that, while hitting all the same points as the traditional path and leading to the same, does things slightly differently but not enough to be unbalanced. And I desperately want to persuade you, somehow, that having seperate parallel tech trees could be more fun and offer more possibilities for future expansion of gameplay, and could even be easier to design (the needed techs, buildings and units at least) by comparing them to their contemporaries in the other tech lie. Plus maybe it would be easier to make modular if it was all compartmentalized in a separate line, if that's important at all. Hydro, I depend on you wanting to try it out this way and I would like to help you any way I can if it can see at least some of my ideas tried out. I think I am helping by setting up those brainstorming threads (I'm kind of at a loss for how to conceptualize any other proposals if it's not a seperate tech tree) but if that's not enough, maybe you could show me how I could help you put in the buildings and units?

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 16, 2011, 10:22 PM
@Hydromancerx are you going to add these units (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443448) in? And move the trained mammoth units into the alt-timeline folder?

steampunk1880
Oct 16, 2011, 10:52 PM
Oh! Stuff I asked on the unit graphics forum for. I can hardly believe they responded. Zebra units too?

Hydromancerx
Oct 17, 2011, 01:48 AM
@Hydromancerx are you going to add these units (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443448) in? And move the trained mammoth units into the alt-timeline folder?

Sounds reasonable. It should follow the same upgrade path as the elephant except have +1 strength and polar stats like the current mammoths have. I can always list them later.

If it works like that then wouldnt a steampunk tank be just a mechanical verison of a cavalry unit you'd get around then? and a clockwork tank would be a curiasser, no a mailed knight? It look's cool but what's the point of going through the trouble of heading off on an alternate timeline when you'll have to hit the same points as everyone else eventually.

If I had to be completely honest I don't like that method of handling the concept of alternate paths technology could take. I don't think it uses the concept as fully as creating an entirely separate technological path that, while hitting all the same points as the traditional path and leading to the same, does things slightly differently but not enough to be unbalanced. And I desperately want to persuade you, somehow, that having seperate parallel tech trees could be more fun and offer more possibilities for future expansion of gameplay, and could even be easier to design (the needed techs, buildings and units at least) by comparing them to their contemporaries in the other tech lie. Plus maybe it would be easier to make modular if it was all compartmentalized in a separate line, if that's important at all. Hydro, I depend on you wanting to try it out this way and I would like to help you any way I can if it can see at least some of my ideas tried out. I think I am helping by setting up those brainstorming threads (I'm kind of at a loss for how to conceptualize any other proposals if it's not a seperate tech tree) but if that's not enough, maybe you could show me how I could help you put in the buildings and units?

But I don't see how you could keep one from researching the core techs, since they are needed. Nor why would technology not eventually be discovered? For instance just because you make steam powered robots don't mean someday you cannot discover electronics and then make electronic robots.

As for parallel trees how would you ever do that? They need to eventually lead back to major choke points on the tree.

I would also like to let you know that I appreciate you enthusiasm in theses brains storming topics, but It will be awhile until we get to all of these since much of the core stuff needs to be made before we add onto that.

It one reason I have not done the Galactic Era yet. Since there is a lot more I need to build up before it can be implemented.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 17, 2011, 02:05 AM
As for parallel trees how would you ever do that? They need to eventually lead back to major choke points on the tree.

Why? I am serious why should they? Why can't I develop Space technology with steam punk rather than electronic? I.E. "Space tech A" requires "Steam Punk Z" or "Electronics 2". It makes getting it to work more difficult I suppose.

Hydromancerx
Oct 17, 2011, 02:14 AM
Why? I am serious why should they? Why can't I develop Space technology with steam punk rather than electronic? I.E. "Space tech A" requires "Steam Punk Z" or "Electronics 2". It makes getting it to work more difficult I suppose.

The question "why" should be the other way. Why shouldn't a steampunk society be restricted from researching electronics? Why can't they discover the same stuff that the core civs do?

And sure there can be OR techs to bypass things. I think we need to flash out the tree better on what unlocks what and stuff.

Hydromancerx
Oct 17, 2011, 05:20 AM
@Hydromancerx are you going to add these units (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443448) in? And move the trained mammoth units into the alt-timeline folder?

Ok here are the stats. They are a combo of the elephant units with the mammoth features.

Ballista Mammoth
Type: Mounted
Strength: 10
Movement: 1
Cost: 100
Req Tech: Mounted Archery, Ancient Ballistics, Megafauna Domestication
Req Resource: Mammoth
Req Building: Mammoth Trainer
Upgrades From: None
Upgrades To: Bombard Mammoth

Special Abilities

+30% City Attack
+50% vs Catapult
+50% vs Trebuchet
+50% vs Mounted Units
+25% vs Melee Units
Targets Mounted Infantry First in Combat Outside Cities
Can Destroy Tile Improvements and Bombard City Defenses (-5% Per/Turn)
Can Perform Ranged Attacks
Range 1
Accuracy 30
Starts with Arctic Combat I, Arctic Combat II and Arctic Combat III


-----

Bombard Mammoth
Type: Mounted
Strength: 23
Movement: 1
Cost: 200
Req Tech: Calvary Tactics, Gunpowder, Megafauna Domestication
Req Resource: Mammoth, Iron and Sulpher
Req Building: Mammoth Trainer
Upgrades From: Ballista Mammoth, War Mammoth
Upgrades To: Gunship

Special Abilities

+40% City Attack
+50% vs Catapult
+50% vs Trebuchet
+50% vs Mounted Units
Targets Mounted Infantry First in Combat Outside Cities
Can Destroy Tile Improvements and Bombard City Defenses (-10% Per/Turn)
Can Perform Ranged Attacks
Range 1
Accuracy 40
Starts with Arctic Combat I, Arctic Combat II and Arctic Combat III


-----

@strategyonly

Bugs

1. I also noticed that the Bombard Elephant need to fix its requirements. It has Ivory and then Ivory OR Sulphur or Iron. It should be fixed to "Ivory AND IRON AND Sulphur".

2. Also the Bombard Elephant and Ballista Elephant are National Units. They should be general units.

Necratoid
Oct 17, 2011, 02:35 PM
I'm now wondering if people actually bother to read/vaguely remember my old posts... mostly because I haven't heard any comentary on most of my ideas. Oh'well been a page or so.

To recap, my idea was that the new *Ages* require a particular project (a cheap one) to be built to begin. Once this is founded you are set on a particular branch of the *Ages* tree. You aren't restricted from researching any tech (with a preceding tech(s) obtained), you just can't actually build several of the units/buildings/wonders without being on the tech path. Conversely you can't build several equivalent unit/buildings/wonders from other *Ages*... including the core one. You do however get access to various promotions that grant bonuses vs. that *Ages* particular units. Perhaps bonuses that are on different paths, but require knowledge of techs from other paths to activate.

For instance, particular defenses against that type of unit. Example: cogpunk units are weak against getting sand and such clogging up the works. So if you have a sand source/pit and have obtained the right techs... you can have a city defense that involves dumping sand into the works or blowing sand towards the contructs to get the same effect. To counter a promotion that adds a framework of oil cloth shielding that reduces the negatives from sand a attacks. Steampunk has a counter involving dowsing the machines with water... thermodynamics kick in. However the shielding is heavy and slows the units movement speed.

Basically the project both locks you into a sub*Age* and opens up those techs to anyone your in contact with. It also adds in a slew of bonuses to various techs and units. As well as, access to specific units/buildings. You just have to end the extra bonuses techs line on specific tech choke points. From then onwards no new techs specifically from that *Age* come around (you aren't locked out of past ones though)... bonuses from those specific projects/techs may kick in no where near the *Age* you got them in. Certain later techs are get cheaper to research due to synergy bonuses. This is the legacy of the past ages.

If you make specific wonders (national or world) required to research the *Age* starting project and those wonders mutally exclusive you can have several independants groups with there own version of that age. As far as I know you can't have the same project researchable by several independant groups successfully so slightly different *Ages* say cogpunk of three different flavors with minor changes on the bonus dependant on specific wonders that allowed you to found them.

I think this is the basic framework that will allow the alternate *Ages* to work without needing to rewrite the base code. Any thoughts?

Hydromancerx
Oct 17, 2011, 10:53 PM
Ok I had a rough idea on how to differentiate between say a steampunk tech tree and a core tech tree. What if we had an alternate timeline "Civic"? One where you could pick if you want to go down the "steampunk" path or the normal path.

While I don't think you can limit techs with civics I do know you can limit buildings with civics and you can link buildings to techs. For instance lets say you want to build a steampunk related building. You would have to have that civic enabled and then it unlocks a specific steampunk tech associated with that building. These would be non tradable techs of course. In addition all steampunk buildings would be disabled if you changed civics.

Note that the opposite can be true for core buildings that become disabled if you change to a steampunk type of civic.

For example "Steampunk" Civic could be unlocked at Steam Power tech.

What do you think? Kinda cool no?

steampunk1880
Oct 18, 2011, 12:02 AM
@Nectratoid. I read, but I'm having trouble visualizing it, if you could give a few examples of components and how it would all work together. Well, I've just read your proposal a couple of times and am not getting it, sorry.

@Hydro. Yeah i think it's cool as a starting mechanism. It could be yet another civic category. But, that would be kind of meta. And wouldn't the AIs have a problem with switching back and forth at inopportune times? And what keeps everyone from being steampunk when you were talking about it being for only a handful of civs. And would one steampunk tech lead to another like a string of airship techs or better engines. I'm still rooting for a separate tech tree but a steampunk civic is a decent way to model it with it's own pros and cons.

And to answer your question why can't they discover the same stuff core civs do, I'm storytelling a bit but if your society has taken the time and effort to embrace this new way of doing things, why would they look at their neighbors and see something of value. The enlightened people experiencing an ancient golden age would scoff at the lives of the crude barbarians around them, the retro-future society would tsk at the backwards nuclear-fearing nations of the world. By going down the alternate history path you are guiding your society in saying our way is the best way.

Besides i was thinking of linking electronics with electromechanical computational engines and aetheric communications, two late steampunk techs i was going to propose as the start for reintegration with the main timeline.

In fact, if you give me, oh say, 3-4 days i could sketch out and show you as an example of everything i'm arguing for a line of technologies from Military Science, Steel, Steam Power, Thermodynamics and Medicine all the way to Electronics, Aerodynamics, Naval Aviation, Radar, Mass media, and Modern Seismology while still hitting all the important points that prepare it for the future (something by another name to emulate refining and electricity as well as other stuff but with different stats). The way i hope to design it, a steampunk civ could reintegrate with the modern age at electronics, or use their late age equivalents of fission and rocketry to make a smooth transition into the retro future age (with some buffer techs that I'll also outline if i have time)

Hydromancerx
Oct 18, 2011, 12:19 AM
@Hydro. Yeah i think it's cool as a starting mechanism. It could be yet another civic category. But, that would be kind of meta. And wouldn't the AIs have a problem with switching back and forth at inopportune times? And what keeps everyone from being steampunk when you were talking about it being for only a handful of civs. And would one steampunk tech lead to another like a string of airship techs or better engines. I'm still rooting for a separate tech tree but a steampunk civic is a decent way to model it with it's own pros and cons.

Well if you had the civic unlocked at say a tech that required a building and/or wonder then the AI may not have very many options to switch back and forth from if you cannot even unlock the other civics.

And to answer your question why can't they discover the same stuff core civs do, I'm storytelling a bit but if your society has taken the time and effort to embrace this new way of doing things, why would they look at their neighbors and see something of value. The enlightened people experiencing an ancient golden age would scoff at the lives of the crude barbarians around them, the retro-future society would tsk at the backwards nuclear-fearing nations of the world. By going down the alternate history path you are guiding your society in saying our way is the best way.

*nods* This is why I think the Civic method maybe the best way to go since its more like a culture or philosophy on how to tech up. Note that we will always need some core techs that all timlines use but with a civic we can simulate different tech trees without having to make a different tech tree.

In fact, if you give me, oh say, 3-4 days i could sketch out and show you as an example of everything i'm arguing for a line of technologies from Military Science, Steel, Steam Power, Thermodynamics and Medicine all the way to Electronics, Aerodynamics, Naval Aviation, Radar, Mass media, and Modern Seismology while still hitting all the important points that prepare it for the future (something by another name to emulate refining and electricity as well as other stuff but with different stats). The way i hope to design it, a steampunk civ could reintegrate with the modern age at electronics, or use their late age equivalents of fission and rocketry to make a smooth transition into the retro future age (with some buffer techs that I'll also outline if i have time)

Sure take as much time as you need. This is all still planning phase. I do not plan to implement any of this until much later.

AIAndy
Oct 18, 2011, 07:28 AM
Hmm, what about using the cultural age mechanic I am working on (far from finished yet) to choose between the different timeline options as most of them are not only a tech choice but a cultural thing as well.
Total accumulated culture lets you progress through the cultural ages and at the end of each you have to choose the next age from a list depending on your old cultural age so you have to make a choice which of them you'd like.

Hydromancerx
Oct 18, 2011, 04:01 PM
Hmm, what about using the cultural age mechanic I am working on (far from finished yet) to choose between the different timeline options as most of them are not only a tech choice but a cultural thing as well.
Total accumulated culture lets you progress through the cultural ages and at the end of each you have to choose the next age from a list depending on your old cultural age so you have to make a choice which of them you'd like.

How would your idea work?

AIAndy
Oct 18, 2011, 04:35 PM
How would your idea work?
Similar to how you progress through a tech tree with accumulated beakers you progress through cultural ages with culture.
At the end of each cultural age (when you have accumulated enough culture to progress to the next), you get a list to choose from depending on your current cultural age. Unlike a tech tree, those ages you do not choose you cannot research later. So consider it like a tech tree in which you can only move onwards.

It is supposed to represent different cultural pathways (art, literature, the focus on different aspects of life) and depending on the ages you choose you get access to special techs/units/buildings/heroes/... while you don't get access to others. The original idea was that it would make culture a lot more valuable.
That kind of fits with the alternative timelines.
So I would suggest making them part of the cultural age tree.

Example: At the end of the paleolithic cultural age you decide to choose megafauna domestication as your next cultural age instead of the normal neolithic choice. So you experience the alternative timeline of a culture focusing in art and tech on the domestication of big animals.

rightfuture
Oct 18, 2011, 05:54 PM
You could make the choice of alternate ages an And/Or toggleable option in game settings for those who want to explore them differently.

For example if you initially choose the option of allowing alternate ages in the game settings, you could choose locked ages, where you had to choose which age path you wanted to go down.
OR
you could choose open alternate ages, where you could simultaneously explore expanded technology trees in both ages.This would allow expanded gameplay and would give people the choice to explore the ages in a progressive way.
(this would also be good if different countries ended up on different paths, technology paths could influence each other. ex- steam tanks vs tanks... one could then pursue combustion tanks if they trump steam tanks)


You could even have triggering events or wonders open up or exclude a path randomly so that either one or another, or both ages could be explored simultaneously or exclusively. (Could be a more interesting mix of progression). Maybe ages could be checked off that people want to exclude , or randomly/specifically include. (some people might hate a age idea [i hate the idea of megafauna]). More genre specific ideas could be regulated to an age category (like dinosaurs on earth) or cyberpunk, or even mythical (more fantasy stuff like magic, or gods, or other less popular genre stuff) so those who don't wish them could turn them off.

This might be an interesting way to include debated content, you could create misc or genre age packs which could be toggled. Heck it might be possible to beta test technology changes, or any experimental age this way, would be nice to toggle on/off any age you would want and not be forced to play it. (some people don't like the future [not me, i love speculative/whatif fiction])

Necratoid
Oct 18, 2011, 10:10 PM
Okay, simplified explaination of what I mean.

In generic terms:

1) You get the prerequisit techs/buildings/wonders a project *Age punk* is made available.

2) Once the project is built it opens up a sidebar tech tree that isn't available until said *Age Steampunk* project is actually built. The techs all have a requirerment that requires that at least one of the activating projects exists in a city that Civ controls, somewhere (or whereever said projects exist in game terms). Much like getting access to nukes require the Manhatten project to be completeld. (Not sure what happens if you conqure the city with the project in game terms.)

3) The techs are then researchable by any Civ at that point. Though it may take contact with Civ with one of said *Age* projects, if possible, as your won't have reason to bother with this tech line if required/relivant the*Age* doesn't actually happen.) You may want to make a project needed for the Core as well instead of making the *Core Age* up automatic. There project should take only a few turns.

4) Most of the actual units/buildings are not usable without one of the relivant projects under your control. However things like the anti-unit from that *Age* promotions are. That and certain other *Age punk* projects get bonuses from understanding the tech the other guys are using. Example your *CogPunk* factory gets a boost from figuring out *Steampunk* power and such, but it isn't as good as a later factory type building, age and visa versa.

---

No *Age punk* should require a past *Age punk* though it may give you access faster due to a needed wonder existing. At least 2 optional *Age punks* need to exist with the core at any given time and a few similar projects need to exist to prevent one group hogging that *Age*... unless an option for a national project exists. If so that means things are easier.

I'm not sure if you can, but make the optional option in custom game make it so the projects don't exist if unused. Besides hiding the *Age punk* techs that is all you should need to do to edit this out. Well that and any *Age* specific bonuses/negative.

Please respond to the numbered section of my post if you confused by something... or just ask about specifics.

Hydromancerx
Oct 19, 2011, 01:54 AM
@Necratoid

Ok how the heck would you gre the game to do all that? :eek: Seriously I have been trying to use existing features such as civics, new techs on the existing tech tree, buildings, etc. A whole new screen and a separate tech tree. Oy!

robomani
Oct 19, 2011, 08:19 AM
Well for new tech tree you could look at Master of mana, it have a spell tree that use different breaker than tech and is separated in 3 tab that you chose what to learn and get one of them depending of a % influenced by the mana you posses.

http://www.masterofmana.com/

Necratoid
Oct 20, 2011, 06:55 AM
@Hydromancer: Okay... now I'm utterly baffled on how your actually expecting to do alternate timelines, at all. Try giving us an over view of the basics of how you plan on making this work. Apparently your thinking is completely off kilter from mine... and I'm not sure what specifically your planning on doing... which makes it awful hard to comment on.

From what this thread has shown so far, alternate timelines requires:

1) New *Ages*: These must be defined and the way to activate them turned on.
2) New Techs: Which used for instituting the specific features of the *Ages*. The alternate method involves adding in hundreds of bonus to the dozens of existing techs and having the turn on and off dependant on the 'alternate timelines' tag being clicked.
3) a disablable 'Alternate Timelines' options: That or lots and lots of new game options under a submenu lable 'alternate timelines' in the custom game menu.

The biggest issue is your making Alternate timelines an add on option rather than a separate mod. This is the area that seems to be causing you issues. Personally I think its less work to make C2C: alternate timelines a separate mod from the vanila C2C. If everyone like certain features you can intigrate them into the main version.

All this is mainly ease of interface issues.
---

The only really new things I suggested was making certain techs require a project(s) to be built before they can be researched, no project that *Age* never happened. Thus the techs can't be researched. Which unless something truely odd comes up should be the same thing as adding previously researched tech requirements to a tech. Making projects require a wonder(s)/ tech(s)/ building(s) to is mostly existant. The projects themselves are what count as the trigger flag for the bonus of that *Age*. Again the specifics of the *Age* are a separate issue.

Again this is why I asked if projects had any particular restrictions unquie to them. Making mutually excusive projects that bind you to a particular *Age* of an Era (Ancient, Medevil, Modern) I suggested 3 *Age* paths, at least, per era one of which is the core vanila version. All the *Age* paths end up at the same group/single tech that advance to the next era.

To keep thing move level, once unlocked every tech can be researched by anyone (or at least those that are in diplomatic contact with someone in one of the noncore *Ages* of any particular) once it is unlocked... however with out the project you don't have access to most of the unquie features of that age. You do get cross pollination bonuses for learning/acquiring techs from other *Age* paths. Knowing the tech will give you access to promotions for fighting aginst that type of unit as well.

rightfuture
Oct 20, 2011, 05:46 PM
I think it's important to focus on what we all agree on. and what is possible. That way we are united on the same page, and will see more ideas in the positive and constructive direction that we are aimed.
Allowing for extended discussion will get us on that same page, and may point out a better way.

Developing a concrete and flexible idea will make more things possible.

What if scenarios are the some of the most interesting things to explore. That is why people love civ iv and c2c; alternate explorations of history or WhatIf's. Connecticut Yankees in Genghis Khan's Court. Gunpowder in ancient Egypt.

Hydromancerx
Oct 20, 2011, 07:54 PM
@Hydromancer: Okay... now I'm utterly baffled on how your actually expecting to do alternate timelines, at all. Try giving us an over view of the basics of how you plan on making this work. Apparently your thinking is completely off kilter from mine... and I'm not sure what specifically your planning on doing... which makes it awful hard to comment on.


The core elements would be much like how we have the megafuana stuff now. You get a building that unlocks new types of units. How you get these buildings is still under discussion, should it be from wonders? wonders that unlock techs? Building that unlock tech that unlock civics?

In all honestly nothing is set in stone yet for the alternative timelines. They ave been at the bottom of my todo list for quite some time since they are like the icing on the cake. We still need to finish making the layers of the cake before we add alternate timelines to them, especially when it involves retro-space since the galactic era is not even in place yet.

In short I cannot respond on stuff I don't even know yet. :crazyeye:

Necratoid
Oct 20, 2011, 11:12 PM
Fair enough. I hope someone who actually understands what projects are cabable of chimes in here. at some point. However at the very least a project should be able to open a new, otherwise nonresearchable tech to open things up at the very least. National or world wronders make specific unit buildable.

The 'Core plus *Ages* in and *Era*' model was more about tech focuses during certain times. The Megafauna thing that exists is all about alternate mounted unit.... Steampunk/Cogpunk is about early robots and other mechcogized units. My main theory is that by focusing on certain fields of study (via wonders and such) you don't bother with say human foot soldiers... after all the ancient world has a few too many reports of legendary not-quite-men troops to be the the silent in combat immortals of the Persians.

That doesn't even cover Talos... the Greek legend of a golem... or battlemech that patroled an island and sunk huge amounts of ship via rock tossing. Yes, I did just point out that the ancient era had rumours of CIvs using unmanned warfare civic. :mischief:

Hydromancerx
Oct 21, 2011, 03:15 AM
That doesn't even cover Talos... the Greek legend of a golem...

I thought the Golem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem) was Hebrew.

Hankc
Oct 21, 2011, 04:04 AM
My experience is that "golem" in common usage usually refers to any walking statue kind of thing. The golem is originally Hebrew, however. In common usage Talos would be a golem.

rightfuture
Oct 21, 2011, 12:04 PM
Here is an interesting article I found on the internet about genres that aren't explored enough in video games. Could be useful in where to plot expanding on in the future. Please remember these for the future!

7 Settings In Video Games That Ought To Be Used More
http://gamingbolt.com/7-settings-in-video-games-that-ought-to-be-used-more

Summary:
1.Medieval
2.Dinosaurs - very popular - consider it for a optional alternate timeline at some point, especially now that you have some 3d models for them.
3.Cyberpunk
4. Westerns
5. Post Nuclear War
6. Noir
7. Pirates

I think it is worth checking it out!

steampunk1880
Oct 21, 2011, 07:25 PM
if dinosaur species survived the sixty five million years to be around at the same time as humans, assuming humans survived at all, they'd look nothing like dinosaurs from the fossil record. Probably the only way we can get dinosaurs in this mod is if we make them like with genetic artistry in the biotech thread.

there's something about post apocalyptic age in the OP somehow leading back to the stone or dark ages implying having to redo all that stuff but i have no idea how that could possibly work

cyberpunk we are working on. CyberTECH really so we can have postcyberpunk stuff in there too.

all that other stuff doesn't sound like it needs to be an alternate history, or really belongs in a civilization game at all like noir. Unless you can, like, build a private eye building which consumes new Cheap Whiskey and Dames resources to produce espionage points and hit movies.

Necratoid
Oct 21, 2011, 09:22 PM
I suggested this before... but as you can't unlearn techs the trick to a new stone age would be to canabalise an old map and remake a new one based on that old map. This would be accessed by starting in a specific age (Post Apoc or neo stone age) and picking a save file to take appart. Someone would have to make that, but that seems the easy way.

That list itself is mostly covered by the Fallout games... if you count the deathclaws as dinosaurs anyway.

EldrinFal
Oct 22, 2011, 11:31 AM
I suggested this before... but as you can't unlearn techs the trick to a new stone age would be to canabalise an old map and remake a new one based on that old map. This would be accessed by starting in a specific age (Post Apoc or neo stone age) and picking a save file to take appart. Someone would have to make that, but that seems the easy way.

That list itself is mostly covered by the Fallout games... if you count the deathclaws as dinosaurs anyway.

Yeah, it would be tough. For something that extreme, the closest I could think of would be having an Era tag for buildings & units, and then disabling everything in Eras after Medieval (etc). It wouldn't account for tech bonuses to Tile Improvements though.

Necratoid
Oct 22, 2011, 11:59 AM
It would also get screwy if you researched up so said era again... the second you recovered the first tech things would go all wonky again.

Hense why a map canablizer was the best, if hard, thing I could think of for that effect. It takes the map, levels the cities, alters the terrain based on what caused the apoc in the first place. Turns a bunker into a city or a crappy small city in the boondocks or on an island into some random pop one city with random stuff working and some heavily damage troops and worker units each.

At that point your going to spend a lot of time gaining enough cash to scrub fallout off squares and scavenging enough stuff to regain past tech levels and gain enough supplies to make this work again. Really a different mod bases on C2C. Though it would likely make great use of pick up equipment (like the sword parts in that ice age mod)... you only get X amount of enviromental suits and one worker with the fallout clean up kit. Other consumable equipment grants upgraded buildings when sacrificed and sacking/burning cities give a chance to regain all the equpment back to bring to your home lands... random barbs spawn with equipment and ruins of past cities become nessassary to control to be competive. They'd spawn random treasure and depletable resource 'treasure' units.

Complex but fun.... and may be a different add-on mod. The map canabalizer is the only real new things I can think of here.

Dumanios
Oct 28, 2011, 06:31 PM
Yeah. I'm not sure how we could even represent a post-apocalyptic era. :/

It is nice to see I was able to contribute to the mod.

Hydromancerx
Oct 28, 2011, 07:11 PM
Yeah. I'm not sure how we could even represent a post-apocalyptic era. :/

It is nice to see I was able to contribute to the mod.

Well the way i see it done is it was done say via forced civics. Since you cannot change civics for say 10 turns then you would be stuck in an apocalyptic era. Within this time specific buildings would be disabled since you changed civics. Thus limiting you to apocalyptic buildings. Note after the 10 turns you could choose to return to the normal civics or stay as a post-apocalyptic era.

Note that golden ages would allow you to get out of the post apocalyptic era without anarchy just like how other civics do it.

EDIT: Now the question become what buildings should be disabled in an apocalyptic?

Dumanios
Oct 31, 2011, 10:20 AM
Maybe during an apocalyptic era the more expensive buildings like universities, factories, casinos, and such would be disabled.

Also, I've released a unit (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=445006) that might be a good future era guy.

steampunk1880
Oct 31, 2011, 03:49 PM
What would happen if the apocalypse civic would provide free a building with a 1:1 chance of melting down? Would it melt down every turn until you managed to switch away?

Hydromancerx
Oct 31, 2011, 07:57 PM
What would happen if the apocalypse civic would provide free a building with a 1:1 chance of melting down? Would it melt down every turn until you managed to switch away?

Or just make the nuclear power plant have a high risk of melt down when under Apocalypse civic.

Thunderbrd
Oct 31, 2011, 09:00 PM
Just a suggestion to honor the date:

We really should include a Zombie Apocalypse version someday ;)

steampunk1880
Oct 31, 2011, 10:59 PM
Or just make the nuclear power plant have a high risk of melt down when under Apocalypse civic.

I was thinking more on the lines of rampant devastation, destroyed buildings, decimated populations. Fallout EVERYWHERE. Yeah if it was a free building-->melted down/was destroyed-->given to you again-->melted down again next turn that would be really...um...bad. Maybe 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 would be better. As it stands I don't habitually build anything that "has a small chance of melting down" because that small chance is always too high and then you're stuck with global warming forever. If it just affected nuclear plants then I would be pretty much untouched.

And the "building" wouldn't be a building, per se, so much as a tag. Like goods. Or really more like Plague in the Rhye's family of games. I'd call it "You Maniacs! You Blew It Up!"

EldrinFal
Nov 04, 2011, 05:03 PM
Just a suggestion to honor the date:

We really should include a Zombie Apocalypse version someday ;)

I think we definitely should :) An event that triggers spawned units would be great.

I'd also like to see a Rise of the Apes event, which would be somewhat similar, but the apes could actually go off and become a new nation. Can you imagine the monkey leaderhead with the Montezuma gestures controlling it?! :lol:

rightfuture
Nov 04, 2011, 09:01 PM
@Thunderbrd
The Necro Cristi Mod is based on a zombie apocalypse.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237238
You may already know about it.
I haven't played it but it is popular and may have some good content.

Dumanios
Nov 04, 2011, 09:04 PM
I think that Next War, Afterworld, Final Frontier, Planetfall, Mars Now!, and Song of the Moon could all help in the future age. In Addition, there's a ton of Battlestar Galactica units in the database.

Praetyre
Nov 04, 2011, 10:02 PM
This ties in with an idea I had for the Transhuman age, which was a particular tech/random event that caused all robot units in a particular player's/particular continent/the entire world (random chance affected by factors like civics and diplomatic relations) to defect to an entirely new, neutral faction. This faction wouldn't necessarily be hostile, but rather isolationist, like the Machines from the Matrix in the backstory "Second Renaissance", or the Yor from Galactic Civilizations II. They'd suffer from plagues (viruses) in their own right, could be infiltrated, could infiltrate humans with androids, and might even be the last "living" things on Earth after a nuclear holocaust.

rightfuture
Nov 05, 2011, 09:06 AM
I would add the Star Trek Mod, MOO2Civ, Star Wars Mod, and the Babylon 5 mod from the creation thread. Maybe they could be used for the Galactic or Transhuman Ages.

I recommend opening up a thread for the Transhuman Era, since we are talking about it!
I also recommend opening up a thread for the Apocalypse Age, including the zombie, machine takeover, nuclear, biological, and resource collapse(peak oil and water) scenario options that many people would like to see.

EldrinFal
Nov 05, 2011, 01:30 PM
This ties in with an idea I had for the Transhuman age, which was a particular tech/random event that caused all robot units in a particular player's/particular continent/the entire world (random chance affected by factors like civics and diplomatic relations) to defect to an entirely new, neutral faction. This faction wouldn't necessarily be hostile, but rather isolationist, like the Machines from the Matrix in the backstory "Second Renaissance", or the Yor from Galactic Civilizations II. They'd suffer from plagues (viruses) in their own right, could be infiltrated, could infiltrate humans with androids, and might even be the last "living" things on Earth after a nuclear holocaust.

Yup. In fact, I am taking that into account in my revised Civics planning. :mischief:

Jwitti
Jan 12, 2012, 03:11 PM
I had an idea while I was on page 3....


I also like doing random events for Jurassic Park and Planet of the Apes...
(NOT making them myself though I'm awful at random events)

puttincomputers
Jan 29, 2012, 03:30 PM
A suggestion to whoever does the alternate timeline. Check this out. http://www.creationtoday.org/dinosaurs-with-man/

Hydromancerx
Jan 29, 2012, 05:33 PM
Um... no. Unless it the Jurassic Park way where they are brought back through reverse engineering birds.

Chickensaurus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QVXdEOiCw8

chueche
Jan 30, 2012, 03:17 AM
A suggestion to whoever does the alternate timeline. Check this out. http://www.creationtoday.org/dinosaurs-with-man/



This is very strange comedy.:rolleyes: They believe that?:confused:

puttincomputers
Jan 30, 2012, 09:31 AM
This is very strange comedy.:rolleyes: They believe that?:confused:

Are you saying documented information, which includes Chinese law from the 1600s, is comedic?

chueche
Jan 30, 2012, 10:14 AM
Hmm, of course there give many strange laws in America too.;)

I would love to see Nazizombies on T-Rex too, but then they must also include FFH in C2C:D

Hydromancerx
Feb 27, 2012, 06:38 PM
Just letting you guys know that "Retro Space" will be replaced with "Atompunk". Note that Atompunk includes Retro Space aspects plus other classic sci-fi themes.


Atompunk
Atompunk relates to the pre-digital period of 1945-1965, including mid-century Modernism, the Atomic Age and Space Age, Communism and concern about it exaggerated as paranoia in the USA along with Neo-Soviet styling, underground cinema, Googie architecture, the Sputnik programme, superhero fiction, the rise of the US military/industrial powers and the fall-out of Chernobyl. Its aesthetic tends toward Populuxe and Raygun Gothic, which describe a retro-futuristic vision of the world.

rightfuture
Feb 27, 2012, 07:01 PM
Hydromancerx

How about posting a post-apocalyptic era alternate timeline thread also?

I like your idea for atompunk instead of retro-future .
Using nuclear motors for everything. The idealized atomic age.
The automatic button pressing house of the future.
What if we had used nuclear rockets to go to space in the 1940's -1950's?
Duck and Cover
build your fallout shelter today? :)

chueche
Feb 28, 2012, 11:35 AM
I have some alternatives ideas for this threat.

315040Picture 1. Something combinied with Megafauna.:D

315041315045Picture 2 and 3. This is a 1500 tonns Superheavytank from plans Nazigermany Ingenieurs.

315046315047Picture 4 and 5. Vril flyingsaucer from movie "Iron Sky". In download section have something like this

315049Picture 6. Rolling tanks from England

315050Picture 7. Russian flying ships to carrie 1200 soldiers under the radar.

315051315052Picture 8 and 9. Flying fortress from Russia.

315054Picture 10. Russian mega tank.

And i forgot the japanese Submarinecarrier where can support 3 Airplains:)

Anyway i have the idea for alternate Superheros.
1. Wolferine. Start with Genmanipulation and advenced Metallurgie.
2. Iron Man. Start with advenced Electronic and advenced Metallurgie.
3. Captain America. Start with Democracy and Biologie
4. Chuck Norris. Start with Movie and need building Masterdojo
5. Conan the Barbarian. Good question but i really dont know what he need:rolleyes:

This Heroes can all download in units section in civfanatics forum.

What you guys think?

chueche
Feb 28, 2012, 11:45 AM
sorry doublepost

Hydromancerx
Feb 28, 2012, 05:13 PM
@chueche

1. Um, no.

2/3. I have something in mind like that for the Dieselpunk stuff.

4/5. Possibly. I think there some UFO models in the game. I would say that would fall under Atompunk.

6. Very cool, however we still would need someone to model it. We can only use the models we have.

7. Interesting. But like I said we would need a model for it.

8/9. Already have an idea for something like this for the Dieselpunk stuff. However I do not have a model.

10. Crazy! Again would need a model.

11. I have heard of this one. Again would need a model.


Anyway i have the idea for alternate Superheros.
1. Wolferine. Start with Genmanipulation and advenced Metallurgie.
2. Iron Man. Start with advenced Electronic and advenced Metallurgie.
3. Captain America. Start with Democracy and Biologie
4. Chuck Norris. Start with Movie and need building Masterdojo
5. Conan the Barbarian. Good question but i really dont know what he need

1. Um, We want plausible sci-fi not superheroes. The diffrence its say Spiderman vs Batman. Spiderman has super powers while Batman just has advanced technology.
2. This would be possible since its super technology. However I am not sure we should go that route.
3. Eh.
4. I think Chuck Norris would run the balance of the game since no unit could possibly defeat him.
5. Again I think we are going more for historical heroes. (Note that Lara Croft was already in the game before we added other heroes).

Koshling
Feb 28, 2012, 06:28 PM
@chueche
7. Interesting. But like I said we would need a model for it.

If you weren't aware of this check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan

Petete
Mar 08, 2012, 11:40 AM
Chuck Norris 999 :strength: 28 :move:
500% bonus against all units.
Can do range bombardment.
Can intercept aircraft.
Can nuke enemy lands.
Can traverse Ocean Peaks and Ice.

Hydromancerx
Mar 08, 2012, 02:59 PM
Your forgot there is a world limit of 1. Since there is only 1 Chuck Norris.

BlueGenie
Mar 08, 2012, 03:23 PM
What about Chuck Norris protegees?

Cheers

Nor'easter
Mar 08, 2012, 03:55 PM
Forgive the ignorant and probably simplistic question: Does it break saves if you turn on one (or more) of the Alternate Timeline modules after starting a game? It's okay if it does, I'll just remember to activate the modules before I start my next game.

Thanks.

Koshling
Mar 08, 2012, 04:04 PM
Forgive the ignorant and probably simplistic question: Does it break saves if you turn on one (or more) of the Alternate Timeline modules after starting a game? It's okay if it does, I'll just remember to activate the modules before I start my next game.

Thanks.

No it doesn't. Turning them OFF might result in units and buildings being deleted, and is a more drastic change, but turning them ON should be just fine.

AIAndy
Mar 08, 2012, 04:07 PM
Forgive the ignorant and probably simplistic question: Does it break saves if you turn on one (or more) of the Alternate Timeline modules after starting a game? It's okay if it does, I'll just remember to activate the modules before I start my next game.

Thanks.
No, that does not break save games in C2C. Actually there are very few changes that break them as C2C uses special resilient savegame formats (SVN changes many times a day and people on it still continue playing).

Petete
Mar 09, 2012, 10:44 AM
I would like to know what the status is on the obsidian and the conquered age. How this age would be triggered and what units/buildings/tech/civics are involved.

I do not have much skills in XML and unit/building making but I've found many tutorials on how to do this. With practice I could hopefully contribute to this.

Hydromancerx
Mar 09, 2012, 04:45 PM
I would like to know what the status is on the obsidian and the conquered age. How this age would be triggered and what units/buildings/tech/civics are involved.

I do not have much skills in XML and unit/building making but I've found many tutorials on how to do this. With practice I could hopefully contribute to this.

We deviated highly from this tree (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5010889957_8f8f088c66_b.jpg). Right now we just have ...

- Megafauna Domestication
- Clockpunk
- Steampunk
- Dieselpunk
- Atompunk
- Biopunk
- Cyberpunk

Each are techs and not ages and are linked to our culture wonders instead of their own eras. However we do plan to still add an Ancient and Post-Apocalyptic alt-timeline stuff. How the latter is going to be done is still under debate.

DRJ
Mar 15, 2012, 07:13 PM
A while ago I did a piece on what could be like Hippiepunk, and surely it would be fun to see it integrated in C2C

New Tech: Go Ask Alice

->http://american-prayer.blogspot.com/2009/03/go-ask-alice-tale-of-psychedelia.html
->http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NU0Y0VGF http://www.mininova.org/tor/2187848
->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Ask_Alice
Requires: Mass Media, Psychology, Medicine, [+Pentagon to be built?]

enables:

New 'Society' Civic Wonder Culture?: Far Out (Available with 5 LSD Labs)
-> As long as you have civic Far Out any Civ you declare war on will trigger all other civs to DOW on you.

New WW: Ecotopia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia )
Requires: Go Ask Alice, economy civic choice "green", Far Out

Bonus for building Ecotopia: Tech [Ecological Engineering] unlocked/gifted to player // or Paradise Civic unlocked

New Building: Disco
+ 1 Free Artist, +5 :culture: with Far Out
Requires: Go Ask Alice

New Building: LSD Lab
+100% War Wariness, -15% commerce (Must build 5 of those for adopting Far Out)
5 population of the city the LSD Lab is built in are tied to be normal specialist "citizen"

National Wonder: Studio One ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_One_%28record_label%29 ):
+1 Free Artist, +5 :culture:, 2 Hit Singles with Far Out
Requires: Go Ask Alice
(builds double as fast in colony (oversea) city)

National Wonder: Studio 54( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_54 ) :
+5 :mad: (bad taste of music and clothes)
Evens the LSD lab malus in the city built in (because over time the people change to cocaine rather than acid)
+5 :yuck:
-25% War Weariness
(helps reducing political awareness of the youth )

New Building: Record Store:
+2% :commerce: +4% :culture:
+4 :) with Far Out

Unique quest for Civic Far Out:
Your Hippies Agents (Powtin Auser and Joez Baan) have to put LSD in drinking water of 5 different civs capitals. After completing the task, the whole world gets a golden age. Relations of all nations randomly +5/+9 points.

New Spy Mission: LSD Poisoning:
City in Revolt for 5 turns + regular poisoning effects. Very expansive mission (this tweak represents moral outrage because of 'hippie terrorism', of course)

Kreatur
Mar 17, 2012, 06:27 PM
very impressive DRJ :clap:
bye the way what about a steam punk event: need mad scientist castle
one of the mad scientists has gone to far with his experiments of two headed guinea pigs
a mob of peasent of the surounding area wants to burn down the castle and destroy his work

1. we have to stop this, let them burn it down ( lose the castle, + one hapines )
2. let them burn down the castle but take the animals and take them in our petting zoos (lose the castle, every petting zoo gets +2 research -2 unhapines
3. the research is too important ,our troops have to defent the castle ( 3 turns of unrest in the city )

mcookie83
Mar 18, 2012, 01:46 AM
@DRJ:

I like your ideas! Especially the Unhappiness issue with "Studio 54"... good job! :goodjob:

charlesb96
Mar 18, 2012, 11:00 PM
Has any one read Harry Turtledove's alternate history books? I am thinking of the Worldwar series, where it is WW2 and an alien race invades with equipment equal to about modern times 1990+. But not the equipment to build any more. They are at war with everyone, have the tech equal to all those currently discovered, their own set of wonders to build and are scattered all over the world. A limited amout of the advanced units, and they then have to take over cities, build the buildings, research the tech and build regular units. They can only get cease fire, not peace, never become anyone's vassel, and are always hostile to the humans.

rightfuture
Mar 19, 2012, 07:46 AM
Has any one read Harry Turtledove's alternate history books?

I love alternate history science fiction.
I have heard that Harry Turtledove is the absolute king of that genre, but I have not read any of his many books yet. Would you please recommend the best one of his books to start with? Surprisingly I have bought and read a lot of similar books.
Maybe you could create some C2C Harry Turtledove alternate world scenarios, using the world-builder?? We would all love them.
Time travel, Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, alternative history WhatIF stories, are fascinating; no wonder I like the idea of C2C so much.

I highly recommend:
The Cross-Time engineer series by Leo Frankowski
http://www.amazon.com/Cross-Time-Engineer-Adventures-Conrad-Stargard/dp/0345327624
It is very entertaining, easy reading, a little juvenile, but awesome in it's scope and exploration of technology applied in a past time.

I can't wait to see more of what C2C becomes:)

Hanny
Mar 25, 2012, 07:09 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17488447

Could justify some uber animals in the alt timeline.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=201143&highlight=animals&page=2

Zebra etc cav units.

Dancing Hoskuld
Mar 25, 2012, 01:32 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17488447

Could justify some uber animals in the alt timeline.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=201143&highlight=animals&page=2

Zebra etc cav units.

We already have the zebra cav etc. units in game.:confused:

Hydromancerx
Mar 25, 2012, 07:13 PM
@Hanny

Have you actually played C2C?

Hanny
Mar 26, 2012, 12:59 AM
Hydro
Not past medieval period, and not with every tech researched, there is a ton i have not seen yet, and variants of units ( since i have not looked to see which are stock) would be usfull.

charlesb96
Apr 07, 2012, 03:14 PM
A couple of ideas for alternate timelines.
Ostrich riders.
And an early, (very early) flight unit, eagle riders, or more accurate, Roc riders. Have a subdued Haast's eagle build a special building to create the riders after Megafauna, national unit, so there are not hundreds of them around.

DRJ
Apr 07, 2012, 03:29 PM
A couple of ideas for alternate timelines.
Ostrich riders.
And an early, (very early) flight unit, eagle riders, or more accurate, Roc riders. Have a subdued Haast's eagle build a special building to create the riders after Megafauna, national unit, so there are not hundreds of them around.

Eagle Riders? Yeah that reminds me of something lol ... with genetics your eagle riders could bec upgraded to Hawk Men ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTHypbLlkE

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 07, 2012, 03:47 PM
A couple of ideas for alternate timelines.
Ostrich riders.
And an early, (very early) flight unit, eagle riders, or more accurate, Roc riders. Have a subdued Haast's eagle build a special building to create the riders after Megafauna, national unit, so there are not hundreds of them around.

Unfortunately no one has made unit graphics for those units or we probably would.

Eagle Riders? Yeah that reminds me of something lol ... with genetics your eagle riders could bec upgraded to Hawk Men ^^

Link does not work.

DRJ
Apr 07, 2012, 05:06 PM
Ah, sry... If a movie is needed for building the eagle rider wonder, this footage could be used :Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTHypbLlkE&list=HL1333839877&feature=mh_lolz

Hydromancerx
Apr 07, 2012, 06:13 PM
@DRJ

I hope you re kidding about he Hawk men. :nope:

GreatLordofPie
Apr 07, 2012, 06:28 PM
Now that multimaps are at least possible, maybe you can have it so that a small fraction of games will have a somewhat habitable Mars with it's own, alien civilization(s) (ala John Carter)
Also, awesome mod!

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 07, 2012, 07:12 PM
Now that multimaps are at least possible, maybe you can have it so that a small fraction of games will have a somewhat habitable Mars with it's own, alien civilization(s) (ala John Carter)
Also, awesome mod!

I was thinking of going with H.G. Wells "War of the Worlds" but there are no graphics for the aliens. No graphics is always the draw back:sad:.

GreatLordofPie
Apr 07, 2012, 08:25 PM
It's funny you say that, because there's a mod called the "Futuremod" that actually has a (low poly) model of the tripod that is based off of the front half of the elephant (so uses the animation) I can post a screenshot if you want...

steampunk1880
Apr 11, 2012, 10:46 PM
I was thinking, since now most alt timeline stuff is locked behind a special resource (IE Steampunk units require the Steampunk resource which is only obtainable by the Steampunk wonder) would it be possible to have some units/buildings be buildable by two separate -punks where appropriate through the Or clause of resource requirements? I ask this because while giant mega-airships work well as early Dieselpunk units, they work equally well as late Steampunk units. Similarly the Clockwork Golem, with some tweaking, is a fine late Clockpunk infantry it is a decent idea for an early Steampunk infantry. And jetpack soliders (which I'm contemplating as we speak) truly belong both to Dieselpunk (just look at that the movie The Rocketeer) AND Atompunk. I'm sure there are other areas of possible overlap...that train based artillery perhaps...that would really help free up options for the various -punk ages while still providing enough unique attributes to each age to make them stand out.

Hydromancerx
Apr 11, 2012, 10:48 PM
Possibly but it would have to be a case by case basis.

Azurian
Apr 12, 2012, 12:38 PM
------

Post your alternative timeline ideas in this thread.

Here are some old posts I hd on the subject ...



"Punk" Types ...

- Prehistoric Era = Stonepunk
- Ancient Era = ?
- Classical Era = ?
- Medieval Era = Cogpunk
- Renaissance Era = Clockpunk
- Industrial Era = Steampunk
- Modern Era = Dieselpunk
- Trans-Human Era = Cyberpunk / Biopunk / Nanopunk
- Galactic Eras = ?


Maybe this can be the description for this eras..
AncientEra = Horsepunk (Requires Horses) OR SwordPunk (Requires Bronze)
ClassicalEra = IronPunk (Requires Iron) OR MythPunk (Requires Ancient Relics)

It matches the current theme of the biggest inventions/ discovery of the time.

Azurian
Apr 12, 2012, 01:01 PM
Here is how the Eras are divided in the PC Game Empire Earth 2 (similar to Age of Empires)

Empire Earth 2


Stone
(Epoch 1, 10,000 - 5000 BC)
During the Stone Age, humans had begun to make rudimentary tools and organized themselves into communities.

Copper
(Epoch 2, 5000 - 2500 BC)
The Copper age witnessed the birth of metal-working. New tools were created, increasing the efficiency of farming, and small communities grew into cities. New weapons were forged, too, bringing new advances to warfare.

Bronze
(Epoch 3, 2500 - 1000 BC)
The Bronze Age is a turning point in the history of civilization. Urbanization gains a foothold, and literacy spreads.

Iron
(Epoch 4, 1000 BC - 400 AD)
Powerful cultures overtake others in the Iron age as empire-building begins. With cities firmly established and labor clearly divided, many people find themselves with more leisure time, leading to advances across civilizations.

Dark
(Epoch 5, 400 - 800 AD)
With the fall of mighty empires, Europe finds itself in a period of stagnation. Much of the rest of the world, however, continues to advance.

Middle
(Epoch 6, 800 - 1300 AD)
Europe rebounds, and feudalism spreads. Weapons become more advanced, and adventurers set out on the open seas, discovering new trade routes.

Renaissance
(Epoch 7, 1300 - 1500 AD)
Gunpowder revolutionizes the military, and its impact reverberates among civilization in general. Because a commoner could obtain these powerful and easy-to-use weapons relatively cheaply, the old feudal structure cannot stand.

Imperial
(Epoch 8, 1500 - 1650 AD)
With cannons causing widespread damage, civilizations go to war against others, and powerful civilizations vie to claim parcels of the New World.

Enlightenment
(Epoch 9, 1650 - 1800 AD)
Advances in shipbuilding give rise to capitalism, and as education spreads to the masses, Republicanism rises.

Industrial
(Epoch 10, 1800 - 1900 AD)
New inventions explode on the scene, changing the way people make their living. The steam engine is invented, and people leave the farm to work in factories.

Modern
(Epoch 11, 1900 - 1940 AD)
The quick advances of the Industrial Age are brought to bear in the Modern Age. Mass production is perfected, and a bevy of new technology rolls off the assembly line. Among the new technology produced are planes, tanks and massive warships, introducing a new, much larger scale to warfare. People begin to stand up for their rights during the Modern Age, leading to social reform.

Atomic
(Epoch 12, 1940 - 1980 AD)
Technology gets smaller during the Atomic Age, as research on the molecular level leads to miniaturization. Molecular research also leads to one of the most fearsome weapons of all time, the nuclear bomb.

Digital
(Epoch 13, 1980 - 2030 AD)
Advances in computer technology leads to fast analysis, speeding the pace of invention. Computers also find a place in the home, opening new communication gateways and a new method of obtaining information.

Genetic
(Epoch 14, 2030 - 2130 AD)
Advances in genetic research leads to the cure of diseases that were once thought incurable. But, these advances also lead to gene manipulation to create designer people. Robotics reach new heights, as new machines take care of everything from housework to bomb diffusion.

Synthetic
(Epoch 15, 2130 - 2230 AD)
Genetic engineering, computers and robotics intersect to produce actual artificial intelligence. Robots are able to reason and learn without any human input at all, and they can become anything - even soldiers. Wars become intense as cultures send robots to the frontlines, keeping humans safe at home.

DRJ
Apr 12, 2012, 01:01 PM
For classical era you could have romepunk (http://www.unrv.com/book-review/if-rome.php), there is even a civfanatics thread about it http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-272605.html

GreatLordofPie
Apr 16, 2012, 09:03 PM
I can post a screenshot if you want...

Of course you want a screenie, why would I even ask something like that?
Anyways, two pictures and the file that has the graphics. Enjoy.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 16, 2012, 09:55 PM
Of course you want a screenie, why would I even ask something like that?
Anyways, two pictures and the file that has the graphics. Enjoy.

Just what I need to make the H.G. Wells "War of the Worlds" invasion event. ;) I already have the red weed.

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 11:30 PM
Just what I need to make the H.G. Wells "War of the Worlds" invasion event. ;) I already have the red weed.

If you do make them they should be HUGE! Towering over all other units.

Snofru1
Apr 17, 2012, 03:57 AM
In the current SVN in MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml all of the alternative timelines are turned on (value 1) by default, except sabertooth. Why is this?

Sorry if this is explained elsewhere in this thread, I just returned to C2C recently and haven´t read all of it.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 17, 2012, 03:33 PM
In the current SVN in MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml all of the alternative timelines are turned on (value 1) by default, except sabertooth. Why is this?

Sorry if this is explained elsewhere in this thread, I just returned to C2C recently and haven´t read all of it.

Probably because the graphic for the sabretooth looks nothing like the real animal. Although it may just be an oversight/bug.

civhelp121
Apr 18, 2012, 02:40 PM
How exactly does one activate an alternate era, and how does one tell? I started a golden age in the ancient or classical age (can't quite remember, was a week ago) and nothing appeared to happen. I was expecting new techs to be introduced and such.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 18, 2012, 02:53 PM
How exactly does one activate an alternate era, and how does one tell? I started a golden age in the ancient or classical age (can't quite remember, was a week ago) and nothing appeared to happen. I was expecting new techs to be introduced and such.

Once the mod loads the tech screen is static. So most of the alternate time line stuff is already on the tech tree just in a branch that you do not need to study to get to the galactic era. Megafauna alternates depend on you capturing the correct unit and using it to build the correct building, usually a myth building.

Activating or deactivating an alternate timeline has to be done before you start a game. It is done by editing the MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml file in the Assets/Modules/Alt_Timelines folder.

Hydromancerx
Apr 18, 2012, 03:10 PM
How exactly does one activate an alternate era, and how does one tell? I started a golden age in the ancient or classical age (can't quite remember, was a week ago) and nothing appeared to happen. I was expecting new techs to be introduced and such.

There are currently only 3 alt-timelines that work; Megafauna Domestication, Clockpunk and Steampunk. To get them you must research the techs of the same name. In the case of Clockpunk and Steampunk you must build their wonders to gain access to their culture.

Megafauna Domestication has a variety of wonders such as Mammoth Trainer, Zebra Trainer, Bear Trainer, Giraffe Trainer, and so on. These can be built once you either have a Huntng Camp or Herd building nearby. Such as the Mammoth Trainer requires you either have Mammoth Hunter's Camp (req mammoth resource nearby) or a Herd - Mammoth (req a subdued a mammoth to build).

civhelp121
Apr 18, 2012, 09:05 PM
I see, that makes sense. A golden age trigger sounds more logical to me, but given the constraints a wonder makes sense as well.

Rasma
Apr 21, 2012, 03:40 AM
Hm... could it be branched off a system similar to how religions/corporations work? or is there no new way to add things similar to them? I think the punks should spread from a central point giving everyone near by access to them (As it wouldn't make since that when your neighbor is running steam tanks at you you would not try to copy/innovate) How ever on that token I think if it is available to multiple people it should have a downfall, like -sci until a specific point where the punk would merge with the normal timeline. For instance, steam punk would merge after the discovery of oil most likely.

Hydromancerx
Apr 21, 2012, 05:10 AM
@Rasma

The "punk" stuff is treated like a culture. Like the culture units they upgrade into more advanced units. For instance the Steam Tanks eventually upgrade into Modern Tanks, just like how Early Tanks do.

Same goes for say the exotic megafauna mounts which eventually upgrade into things like Armored Cars, Tanks and/or Helicopters. Some even have their own upgrade lineage such as Mammoth Riders, Knights, Ballistas and Bombards.

rightfuture
Jan 18, 2013, 03:01 PM
BUMP
edited (1-30-2013)

shouldn't we keep a list of those Alternative Timelines / Era threads here?:

Domesticated Megafauna mini alt history development thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442990

Sandalpunk

Clockpunk mini alt history development thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442979

Steampunk

Dieselpunk Alt History Brainstorming Thread (just started by Hydromancerx)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454544

Cybertech/Cyberpunk Alt History Brainstorming Thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443227

Retro Space/Retro Future age (Atompunk)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443151

Spacepunk started by (just started by Intlidave)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=487107

Dark Ages

Post-Apocalyptic

Science Fiction Era Thread (just started by me :)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=486071

Dimensional Era

Luminal Age

Dinosaurs in the Future(Jurassic Park, East of Eden(Harry Harrison)

Noir

Mutants - Gamma World

Fantasy

Wild West (Wild Wild West, Brisco County Junior(TV shows, movies) maybe, Boot Hill Roleplaying game.

Swashbuckling -Pirates (could use Sid Meiers Pirates game as inspiration, Seven Cities of Gold (exploration precursor to Colonization), Age of Sail, The Three Musketeers, Robinson Crusoe, The Count of Monty Cristo (books, tv shows, movies)

Alternate Earths.

Famous genres, tv shows, movies,
Imagine playing an alternate era that is just Star Trek, or favorite alternate world Game of Thrones, Lotr, etc.

etc,


Ongoing discussion would be nice so we capture ideas when we think of them, and so that we can work them out over time. Sometimes it is better to keep talking about these things instead of getting around to it, so that potential problems and obstacles have time to be discussed and solved.

(I need to fill in all the links here, as well as other mods, and discussions on the internet. Feel free to post your own here.)

intlidave
Jan 28, 2013, 07:45 PM
I'd also like to add Spacepunk into the mix.
Although you probably could shoehorn its content into late Atompunk/early Cyberpunk if you really wanted to.

rightfuture
Jan 30, 2013, 09:46 PM
I'd also like to add Spacepunk into the mix.
Although you probably could shoehorn its content into late Atompunk/early Cyberpunk if you really wanted to.

Sounds great, even though people aren't ready to start developing it, you could start the ongoing discussion to work out the details, and suggest the ideas, until someone is motivated to start working them in.
I am glad to participate in furthering your ongoing discussion. I hope you keep it going.

In the same spirit I started the:
Science Fiction Era Thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=486071
to have an ongoing discussion on your favorite Science Fiction ideas (that don't fall into one of the other genres or eras).

It is also a good place to distinguish science fiction ideas from speculative future ideas(more likely) and spur ongoing and working discussion to eventually figure out how to get them into C2C.
Like flying cars, transporters, gundams, and light-sabers.
Feel free to bring up your own!

rightfuture
Feb 04, 2013, 07:15 AM
Bump
Because of Inquiries

Nerdman3000
Nov 23, 2013, 05:47 AM
I now this thread's a little old, but have we ever considered doing an Alternate History based on myths? It'd be interesting to see one in the Classical Era based on Greek Mythology or Mythology of that time period in general. The only problem I'd see is that it'd be a bit more out there and more fantastical than realistic.

Hydromancerx
Nov 23, 2013, 02:55 PM
@Nerdman

For the most part we have tied to stay away from fantasy, magic and mythology. There has been talks of a separate C2C Fantasy add-on however. While the "Punks" are scifi in their nature they still sit on the edge of plausibility. Mythological creatures, magic spells and other such fantasy themed things are too impossible for this and can only possibly be used in high tech situations such as nano-tech acting like magic or genetic engineering making mythological style monsters.

The whole theme of these techs is to use current technology to make advanced technology. Such as the Di Vinci Tank. It used mechanical technology, with wood, iron and even early cannons to make a tank long before there were tanks. Its that kind of application the alt-timeliens were made for.

And even the Bear Riders are based in some plausibility. Bears are real, and while extremely slow and dangerous one could selectively breed for tame bears. Eventually one could have a domesticated bear. It would take a lot longer due to their low amount of offspring (2 to 3) and aggressive nature. Honestly I think possibly black bears might be the best type of bear. They are smaller than brown bears and have a wide diet. Some even have shown social behavior with other bears.

Here are some guidelines ...

What makes an animal possible to domesticate?

The world's foremost expert on domestication is arguably UCLA Professor Jared Diamond, who is best known for his popular science books like the awesomely titled Guns, Germs, and Steel. In the book, he lays out six basic criteria that an animal has to meet in order to be possible to domesticate. Let's run through them briefly:

1. The animal needs to be able to eat a lot of different thing and be willing to live off the scraps of humans. If the animals are able to eat stuff humans can't, such as grass, then even better. This also makes strict carnivores somewhat more difficult to domesticate than other animals, as it commits humans to providing a ready food source of other animals for them to eat.

2. The animals need to grow up fast, or at least faster than humans. There's not much point in trying to domesticate extremely long-lived species like elephants or tortoises, as it can take several years before they're even remotely useful, and their long life cycle limits how quickly their numbers can be replenished.

3. The animals must be willing to breed in the close quarters of captivity. Any creature that demands a lot of open territory in order to breed - pandas and antelopes are good examples of this - are terrible domestication candidates.

4. The animals have to be naturally pleasant. An unpredictable or ill-tempered beast is just going to be dangerous to attempt to keep enclosed in a small area. It's possible to meet some animals halfway on this - for instance, the American bison can be kept in huge enclosures on ranches - but that's as close as we can get to full-on domestication for species like that.

5. It isn't just pleasantness - the animals need to be calm as well. Skittish or flighty animals will constantly attempt to escape, and it can be almost impossible to control them even if escape is impossible. This is what seems to have kept foxes from being successfully domesticated, as they're far more skittish than dogs and wolves.

6. The animals need to be willing to recognize humans as their new masters, which means they must have a flexible social hierarchy.

The remarkable thing about all this is that some animals that seem almost indistinguishable from their domesticated counterparts can prove to be incurably wild. The difference between foxes and dogs doesn't seem like very much, domestic pigs seem superficially very similar to the impossibly wild peccaries and warthogs, and zebras can even interbreed with the fully domesticated horses and donkeys...and yet outside a couple isolated cases of taming zebras, the species has proven completely impossible to domesticate.

Source: http://io9.com/5756178/why-can-some-animals-never-be-domesticated

1. Black bears eat our garbage so check.

2. Black bears live around 18 years in the wild though some have reached 31. And they can start to have babies around 3–5 years old. That's getting to be a little long, but still shorter than a human lifespan. So maybe.

3. I don't know this. I would suspect they may need a large range.

4. Yeah they fail at this, but I would think if you could get past the first few aggressive generations you could get a tame bear population.

5. Yeah they would have to be caged well like the Russian foxes until they were more friendly to humans.

6. Do bears have a hierarchy? I don't know.

So yeah zebras and bears may be at the edge of this. But if they were easily domesticated then it would not be an atl-timeline would it?

Dancing Hoskuld
Nov 23, 2013, 03:09 PM
Didn't the Soviet era scientists demonstrate that you could domesticate animals that don't fit the above list. Foxes, I think they used. Foxes are considered undomesticatable but they did it. It took 50 generations or so but they ended up with something that acted like a dog and had some physical characteristics which were dog like. "All" they did was select the least aggressive animals from each generation and bread them. They also went the other way to and undomesticated animals by selecting the most aggressive each generation.

Hankc
Nov 23, 2013, 03:11 PM
Concerning the logic behind the domestication of certain animals, don't forget the power of directed breeding. The first tame/domesticated horses were probably a lot more skittish than modern breeds. Same with dogs, who have different temperaments than wolves. Assuming an animal has tendencis towards "acceptable" behaviours and the humans have enough time, they can almost certainly be bred towards something humans can use.

Hydromancerx
Nov 23, 2013, 04:39 PM
Didn't the Soviet era scientists demonstrate that you could domesticate animals that don't fit the above list. Foxes, I think they used. Foxes are considered undomesticatable but they did it. It took 50 generations or so but they ended up with something that acted like a dog and had some physical characteristics which were dog like. "All" they did was select the least aggressive animals from each generation and bread them. They also went the other way to and undomesticated animals by selecting the most aggressive each generation.

That's what I ment when I said Russian Foxes. And if bears were domesticated I would suspect they would manifest other mutations like the foxes did such as coat color. In wild populations of bears you can already see a wide variety of coat colors from black to brown to golden.

Here is the wiki page on the Domesticated Silver Fox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

Note you can actually purchase the foxes (the tame kind) as pets now.

Sparth
Nov 23, 2013, 11:05 PM
Here is material about Ainu ritual of bear sacrifice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iomante

This paragraph is interesting:
Trappers set out to the bear caves at the end of winter, while the bears are still hibernating. If they find a newborn cub, they kill the mother and take the cub back to the village, where they raise it indoors, as if it were one of their own children. It is said that they even provide the cub with their own breast milk. When the cub grows larger, they take it outdoors, and put it into a small pen made of logs. Throughout their lives, the bears are provided with high-quality food. The cubs are treated as, and traditionally believed to be, gods.

Shogu
Jan 09, 2014, 05:50 AM
How to disable them , and why they are on, on default.

Those tech's are really annoying and unbalanced.

Shogu
Jan 09, 2014, 06:25 AM
OK answer is in first post.

Taxman66
Jan 09, 2014, 08:40 AM
Yes, but it would be nice if they were made into a game option.

Nor'easter
Jan 09, 2014, 10:29 AM
Not sure whether to post this here or in the Ideas/Discussion thread.

How about Survival of the Neanderthals as an alternative timeline? Specifically, allowing Neanderthal Warriors to upgrade to macemen, axemen, swordsmen, etc. Seems to fit in with the "alternative timelines" idea: you build Culture (Neanderthal) and the Neanderthals remain part of your society as you develop. Most of the other culture-specific UUs upgrade.

To make it a bit more interesting, could have Neanderthal Warriors start with a new "Neanderthal" promotion, giving them +10% :strength:. The "Neanderthal" promotion would be available only to melee units, though, so when they eventually upgrade to gunpowder units they'll lose this.

Just an idea. As I said, seems to fit the alternative timelines idea.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 09, 2014, 03:15 PM
How to disable them , and why they are on, on default.

Those tech's are really annoying and unbalanced.

OK answer is in first post.

Yes, but it would be nice if they were made into a game option.

Unfortunately disabling the modules wont remove the techs from the tech tree. I have complained about that. I suppose that now I am temporarily the a mod boss I could insist on it being changed:mischief:.

Similarly, because of the way the XML is loaded we can't (currently) make them a game option because the tech tree is built before the options are set so that they will exist in the current game but out if you save and then load or start a new game.

Thunderbrd
Jan 09, 2014, 06:20 PM
Unfortunately disabling the modules wont remove the techs from the tech tree. I have complained about that. I suppose that now I am temporarily the a mod boss I could insist on it being changed:mischief:.

Similarly, because of the way the XML is loaded we can't (currently) make them a game option because the tech tree is built before the options are set so that they will exist in the current game but out if you save and then load or start a new game.
I don't believe that's true that the tech tree is built before the options are set but you MIGHT be. I could probably do a little work to add a game option tag on techs but I'm not sure how that would look on the tree itself until a lot more research.

The rest of it, units, etc... can easily be dependent on an option. But it would be a job that would take some time to implement and I feel there's more important things to address at the moment.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 09, 2014, 10:33 PM
I don't believe that's true that the tech tree is built before the options are set but you MIGHT be.

All you have to do is look at the pedia from the main menu. It tells you what XML has been loaded. All the WoC stuff will have been done by then.

Thunderbrd
Jan 09, 2014, 11:09 PM
All you have to do is look at the pedia from the main menu. It tells you what XML has been loaded. All the WoC stuff will have been done by then.

This is why we needed the replacement mechanism (which is now fully operational again.) I think I might be able to figure out how to make this work.

Let me ask you... is it possible to have a defined tech that isn't researchable or shows up on the tech tree in the game? How would you define a 'dead' tech that's not included in the tree or as a researchable tech? If this is already possible somehow, this would be very easily done. Otherwise, we'll have to make this possible. At which point we make a redefinition entry for the techs we want to disable when the option is off that sets them to this 'invisible/unresearchable' status.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 10, 2014, 12:12 AM
As far as I know the only way to do that is to have an x grid value of zero or less.

Thunderbrd
Jan 10, 2014, 12:23 AM
I was thinking too... we have a blank tech for use for assigning as a prereq for promos that aren't to be selected but are to be assigned by events or some other direct method instead. I can take a look at that one and duplicate the methods used there to make the tech non-game existent. Create a replacement entry for the tech you want dependent on game option and voila - we have an optionalized tech.

Faustmouse
Jan 10, 2014, 02:49 AM
Let me ask you... is it possible to have a defined tech that isn't researchable or shows up on the tech tree in the game?

If you open the Worldbuilder, there is a "Special Promotions" Tech, that isn't researchable nor shows up in the tree.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 10, 2014, 02:52 AM
We don't want to replace we want to remove.

alberts2
Jan 10, 2014, 12:41 PM
We don't want to replace we want to remove.

No you don't, you want to have a blank tech and if a gameoption is ON the blank tech is replaced with the real tech.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 10, 2014, 01:13 PM
We would need about 17+ of them. Currently they are not game options they are MLF changes.

Thunderbrd
Jan 10, 2014, 11:15 PM
No you don't, you want to have a blank tech and if a gameoption is ON the blank tech is replaced with the real tech.

Basically, yeah. You'd define a replacement tech for each of the ones you want to disable under a given game option that sets the definitions for those techs, under that option, to one that makes them pretty much identical to the one we use to cordon off promotions with. In the way you expressed it, that would probably work even better, making the tech actually active if the game option is ON.

It'd use the 'replacement' method AIAndy and I (I'll refer to myself in this rather loosely since my draft was pretty much entirely redesigned by the aforementioned better programmer) worked out and have applied to ls612's trait option and SGT Slick's Gamespeed option. The same mechanism may be utilized to generate a very effective alternative timelines gameoption by roping off the techs unless that option is on as explained in the last paragraph. Yeah, it'd take about 17+ new tech entries to do that but no biggy.

alberts2
Jan 13, 2014, 12:04 PM
We would need about 17+ of them. Currently they are not game options they are MLF changes.

Can you post a list of them.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 13, 2014, 12:32 PM
At the moment there are in Alt_Timelines - Atompunk, Biopunk, Clockpunk, Cyberpunk, Dieselpunk and Steampunk. In Custom_Religions there are Andean, Asatru, Bahai, Canaanism, Druid, Jainism, Mesopotamian, Mormon, Scientology, Shaman, Shinto, Sikh, Tengri, Voodoo and Yoruba). For a total of 22.

strategyonly
Jan 13, 2014, 03:00 PM
No you don't, you want to have a blank tech and if a gameoption is ON the blank tech is replaced with the real tech.

Thats one think i never had a grasp on, how to do blank/placeholder techs, i know FfH2 has a few of them.

Taxman66
Jan 13, 2014, 04:44 PM
Might as well throw in the wild animal domestications that never occured in real life either.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 13, 2014, 06:32 PM
Might as well throw in the wild animal domestications that never occured in real life either.

They all use techs which are not dead end. (reminder: We are just talking about not having the dead end tech appear if the optional mod has been turned off.:))

Thunderbrd
Jan 13, 2014, 06:48 PM
They all use techs which are not dead end. (reminder: We are just talking about not having the dead end tech appear if the optional mod has been turned off.:))

But we could also optionalize the buildings he's talking about on the same option - they wouldn't be by default turned off like those that rely on the techs we're turning off with the option but they could be turned off individually.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 13, 2014, 07:44 PM
They can already can be - you just turn them off in MLF. Which is why I was asking if it was possible to call a python screen before the XML was loaded. If it is they we just have that Python turn on/off the various real modules. It would also mean we could do a much better game options screen and even allow full options when you "Play Now".

Thunderbrd
Jan 13, 2014, 08:59 PM
I don't think it would be possible... that loading sequence is part of the exe. You'd have to make an exe of our own that then, once assigning new values to the MLFs would run the exe. I'm not capable of that but maybe someone else is. That would make it possible to work with MLFs for more players I suppose. I really doubt most players would ever dip into manipulating files in any way shape or form. For me, before learning to mod, just FINDING the game files was a challenge that gave me a headache. This is why I have such a strong bias against making anything optional based on modularity. It's not player friendly at all.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 13, 2014, 11:50 PM
I don't think it would be possible... that loading sequence is part of the exe. You'd have to make an exe of our own that then, once assigning new values to the MLFs would run the exe. I'm not capable of that but maybe someone else is. That would make it possible to work with MLFs for more players I suppose. I really doubt most players would ever dip into manipulating files in any way shape or form. For me, before learning to mod, just FINDING the game files was a challenge that gave me a headache. This is why I have such a strong bias against making anything optional based on modularity. It's not player friendly at all.

As I said there was one, I thing it was a script or something that called the screen then did its thing then ran the Civ exe with all the stuff set right. Having one would mean that we would not be restricted to one column of disjoint yes/no options. We could have the MLF stuff and all the number type options we currently have in the A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines and others. You would be able to adjust the spawn rate of animals and the display level all without having to edit any files. Instead of a one dimensional list we would have a two dimensional screen where we could display the options and globals in a meaningful way.

I dislike the replacement options system because to me it looks overly complex and a maintenance nightmare as it increases the chances of bugs happening because adjustments are not made to all the replacements when they should.

The current system we use has problems because some people are not using it correctly. Basically only optional stuff should be in the modules folders. Luckily this includes new stuff people are working on. Once it is working it should be moved into the core if it is not going to remain an option.

alberts2
Jan 14, 2014, 09:18 AM
The Replacement System is not really complicated.

The Blank Tech
<TechInfo>
<Type>TECH_CLOCKPUNK</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_CLOCKPUNK</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TECH_CLOCKPUNK_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_MILITARY</Advisor>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iAITradeModifier>0</iAITradeModifier>
<iCost>-1</iCost>
<iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
<Era>ERA_MEDIEVAL</Era>
<bRepeat>0</bRepeat>
<bTrade>0</bTrade>
<bDisable>1</bDisable>
<bGoodyTech>0</bGoodyTech>
<iGridX>-1</iGridX>
<iGridY>-1</iGridY>
<Sound>AS2D_TECH_GENERIC</Sound>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/clockpunk.dds</Button>
</TechInfo>

And the Replacement would look like this
<TechInfo>
<Type>TECH_CLOCKPUNK</Type>
<ReplacementID>TECH_CLOCKPUNK</ReplacementID>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_CLOCKPUNK</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TECH_CLOCKPUNK_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Help />
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_TECH_CLOCKWORKS_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_MILITARY</Advisor>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iAITradeModifier>0</iAITradeModifier>
<iCost>1300</iCost>
<iAdvancedStartCost>100</iAdvancedStartCost>
<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
<Era>ERA_MEDIEVAL</Era>
<FirstFreeUnitClass>NONE</FirstFreeUnitClass>
<iFeatureProductionModifier>0</iFeatureProductionModifier>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iFirstFreeTechs>0</iFirstFreeTechs>
<iAsset>24</iAsset>
<iPower>8</iPower>
<bRepeat>0</bRepeat>
<bTrade>1</bTrade>
<bDisable>0</bDisable>
<bGoodyTech>0</bGoodyTech>
<bExtraWaterSeeFrom>0</bExtraWaterSeeFrom>
<bMapCentering>0</bMapCentering>
<bMapVisible>0</bMapVisible>
<bMapTrading>0</bMapTrading>
<bTechTrading>0</bTechTrading>
<bGoldTrading>0</bGoldTrading>
<bOpenBordersTrading>0</bOpenBordersTrading>
<bDefensivePactTrading>0</bDefensivePactTrading>
<bPermanentAllianceTrading>0</bPermanentAllianceTrading>
<bVassalTrading>0</bVassalTrading>
<bBridgeBuilding>0</bBridgeBuilding>
<bIrrigation>0</bIrrigation>
<bIgnoreIrrigation>0</bIgnoreIrrigation>
<bWaterWork>0</bWaterWork>
<iGridX>50</iGridX>
<iGridY>3</iGridY>
<DomainExtraMoves />
<CommerceFlexible />
<TerrainTrades />
<bRiverTrade>0</bRiverTrade>
<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>6</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_PRODUCTION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>
<OrPreReqs>
<PrereqTech>TECH_CHIVALRY</PrereqTech>
</OrPreReqs>
<AndPreReqs>
<PrereqTech>TECH_OPTICS</PrereqTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_CLOCKWORKS</PrereqTech>
</AndPreReqs>
<Quote>TXT_KEY_TECH_CLOCKPUNK_QUOTE</Quote>
<Sound>AS2D_TECH_GENERIC</Sound>
<SoundMP />
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/clockpunk.dds</Button>
<ReplacementCondition>
<Has>
<GOMType>GOM_OPTION</GOMType>
<ID>GAMEOPTION_ALT_TIMELINES</ID>
</Has>
</ReplacementCondition>
</TechInfo>

One possible change to make it easier to use could be automatic creation of the blank Tech by the dll.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 14, 2014, 10:17 AM
It would be better and simpler if it worked like WoC and only the changes were in the replacement. Having everything in each replacement is just asking for trouble down the line.

alberts2
Jan 14, 2014, 11:09 AM
Agreed, i change it but i can't say how long it takes.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 14, 2014, 03:50 PM
Thanks, no hurry it should probably be for the v35 anyway. It would make the improvement upgrade much less worrying for me since the improvement definition may get over 100 lines and the upgrade or not is just two of those lines.

Thunderbrd
Jan 14, 2014, 05:49 PM
Such a solution does sound like an appropriate compromise. We need to make sure we can negate a tag though...

platyping
Jan 16, 2014, 07:35 AM
Long story short...

Whether it is the tech tree or pedia, both are simply python screens.
Since both are just python screens, you can define what you want to display/hide...

If I can even adjust my tech tree to allow users to decide which era of techs to display/hide, I don't see why you cannot adjust codes to prevent techs from showing up depending on game options.

No need of replacement tech whatever

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 16, 2014, 11:46 AM
But you are talking to C programmers. They have to do it the hard way:mischief:

besides which we currently use MLF to control what is in or out not game options. Do we really want 22 new game options?

platyping
Jan 16, 2014, 11:53 AM
Who cares about the c programmers :D
The tech advisor screen is coded in python.
Whatever is coded there determines what is shown in the screen.
I can code it to display a video of pigs flying if I want.

So digging into the xml, creating dummy techs blah blah blah is ultimately a waste of time when eventually it is the python that decides what is displayed

Sparth
Jan 16, 2014, 11:58 AM
I can code it to display a video of pigs flying if I want.


Please do :P

alberts2
Jan 16, 2014, 12:13 PM
Long story short...

Whether it is the tech tree or pedia, both are simply python screens.
Since both are just python screens, you can define what you want to display/hide...

If I can even adjust my tech tree to allow users to decide which era of techs to display/hide, I don't see why you cannot adjust codes to prevent techs from showing up depending on game options.

No need of replacement tech whatever

Who cares about the c programmers :D
The tech advisor screen is coded in python.
Whatever is coded there determines what is shown in the screen.
I can code it to display a video of pigs flying if I want.

So digging into the xml, creating dummy techs blah blah blah is ultimately a waste of time when eventually it is the python that decides what is displayed

There are always different ways to do things i just think why mess around with python if you can do this in xml.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 16, 2014, 03:01 PM
We already do do it in the XML that is what MLF is. Change one character and the option is on/off.

platyping
Jan 16, 2014, 04:23 PM
The difference is that if the python is set up properly, there isn't even a need to mess with xml.

The replacement system requires additional xml work to create a dummy for each newly added tech in future, provided the dll is already modified for this.

The python if done properly, requires no additional work in future for new techs added.
Naturally it reduces the probability of errors since you alone has caught how many xml errors created by others?
And of course, reduce size since you need one dummy for each tech of this type

Thunderbrd
Jan 16, 2014, 07:50 PM
I'm on Alberts side on this one. Python would be a hardcoded solution and would be very difficult for the less skilled modder to modify if adjustments need to be made.

The way HE want's to adjust the replacement system is actually a really good 'between' space between the two optionable selections we currently have and carries a lot of potential for minimizing data usage, reducing the chances of errors that stem from failures to update (as DH aptly points out) and would end up representing less data consumption, both from the loading process and overall data size of the mod angles.

Obviously we all want to implement things in the best way our own skill sets instruct us how. Looking at it from a not-personal perspective, however, I definitely think DH and Alberts have determined the correct path.

platyping
Jan 16, 2014, 10:45 PM
Not true.
The only change in python is:
If tech belongs to module x and module x is not loaded, do not display it.
When done properly, in future even if you add 10 new techs, there is nothing you need to do in python.

The dll method involves modifying the dll and then for every new tech added, you need a corresponding dummy. If there are 100 techs, there are 100 useless dummies created, whereas python does not need any dummy, yet you claim it is less data utilising?

Furthermore, every dummy created involves xml modding, while no additional work required once python coded properly, so obviously the dummy is more prone to errors

alberts2
Jan 16, 2014, 10:53 PM
Not true.
The only change in python is:
If tech belongs to module x and module x is not loaded, do not display it.
When done properly, in future even if you add 10 new techs, there is nothing you need to do in python.

The dll method involves modifying the dll and then for every new tech added, you need a corresponding dummy. If there are 100 techs, there are 100 useless dummies created, whereas python does not need any dummy, yet you claim it is less data utilising?

Furthermore, every dummy created involves xml modding, while no additional work required once python coded properly, so obviously the dummy is more prone to errors

How does Python get the information about the module a tech belongs to?

The Replacement System wasn't made for this it was made to replace something that exists also if the GameOption is off. That was why i suggested to let the dll create the dummy in this case.

Thunderbrd
Jan 16, 2014, 11:21 PM
Just because you don't display a tech doesn't mean the AI won't think it can (and will be able to) research it. It's not totally blanked out just by not being displayed at all. Only keeps it from the player.

platyping
Jan 17, 2014, 01:06 AM
The simplest solution is using specific xml types.
Instead of TECH_ABC, just let it be TECH_TBIRD_ABC

If you don't like it, then just add a new xml tag to define it belongs to which module.

Then two lines of codes in tech screen
If module not loaded, and tech belongs to the module, don't display it.

And another line for cannotResearch which can be dll or python for same thing.

How long do I need to code this?
30 seconds

Any future modifications to the codes for future additional techs?
None

Now tell me how is the dummy tech a better idea :)

alberts2
Jan 17, 2014, 06:29 AM
The simplest solution is using specific xml types.
Instead of TECH_ABC, just let it be TECH_TBIRD_ABC

If you don't like it, then just add a new xml tag to define it belongs to which module.

Then two lines of codes in tech screen
If module not loaded, and tech belongs to the module, don't display it.

And another line for cannotResearch which can be dll or python for same thing.

How long do I need to code this?
30 seconds

Any future modifications to the codes for future additional techs?
None

Now tell me how is the dummy tech a better idea :)

Again how does Python get the information about the module(loaded or not...) a tech belongs to?

@Dancing Hoskuld

I think for v34 just put the Techs in the Modules i think they are all dead end techs so this should be fine.
If someone disables a module the Techs are not in the Game.

Later we can figure out something.

platyping
Jan 17, 2014, 06:41 AM
DH will know what I mean.
Refer to how it is done for natural wonders and you will know how we are able to tell whether a feature is a wonder or not without dll involvement

Thunderbrd
Jan 17, 2014, 07:25 AM
The downside is that it forces the modder who wishes to set that up to be well versed in python. It would be preferable to have a solution where the modders who can utilize the method are not required to mess with Python at all since a far fewer percent of modders, particularly on our team, are not well skilled there.

platyping
Jan 17, 2014, 08:01 AM
True, but that is the downside of the team, not the method.

All the advisor screens are done via python.
A python problem can be solved via python in easy, clean ways of less than 5 lines.
Attempting to solve it via dll is none of what you claimed
1) minimizing data usage when you need to create dummies while python does not
2) reducing the chances of errors that stem from failures to update (as DH aptly points out), of which there is nothing to update once python set up properly, whereas dummies create twice the chance of XML errors
3) representing less data consumption, both from the loading process and overall data size of the mod angles. One requires dummies, one requires nothing. Isn't it obvious which one increases the loading and overall data size.

The pseudo code is already provided for you, how to translate it to actual codes will be up to the team :D

alberts2
Jan 17, 2014, 08:35 AM
You are always talking about what is displayed on the screen...
If you just hide the Tech from the Screen the AI continues to see it. This is the real problem and to solve this there are also many different solutions.

Don't take this the wrong way but i already know your Answer you just cannot accept that there are other possible solutions for this exept your own.
But the only fact is there are many ways to do this and right now it is not my priority there are much more important things i just made a suggestion.


Right now it looks like the best solution is to put the Techs into the Modules.
After v34 we can find another solution.

Thunderbrd
Jan 17, 2014, 08:36 AM
My point is it's hardcoding. You would have to go in and python code for each individual module you want this to work for. Then what happens if you've deleted the module? It could be rather unstable from a long term perspective and would not be easily setup for most modders. And I don't blame any modder who doesn't know python or doesn't want to work with it - it's a nightmare to work with.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 17, 2014, 11:55 AM
WoC gives a simple way to identify if a module is loaded or not and the testing for it is done in the XML using the AndDependancies and similar tags. It has two minor problems
It is not possible to set values back to their default values without using the ForceOverwrite option which can lead to errors in the future when the wrong XML is edited. It is basically the same problem as having multiple copies.
It does not work with the Religion and Tech Religion as the XML loader gets into an infinite loop. This is fixed by having both the religion and the tech inside the same module. This can result in a modder putting a new tech in the same place as an optional tech on the tech screen.


When you turn a module off you turn anything that depends on it off by the simple method of not having those objects loaded when the XML is loaded. No dll code! no Python code. No need to hide what is not there.

XML modders need to know and understand how and when to use it Players need to know hay and which to turn off. Turning them on and off requires NotePad something we already require knowledge of to adjust some of the variables like the Neanderthal spawn rate.

What we really need is some way to adjust all these variables and turn on/off modules that looks pretty. For the variables we could do it by adding a screen that pops up before the Play Now/Custom Game screen. It has been done in other mods (AnyFun Mod for example). However this wont work for the XML as it will have already been loaded. This suggests that we need a set-up program that has its own XML which allows us to specify which modules are optional and allows us to group optional modules, variables and game options in a meaningful way. Ie similar to the BUG options screen with different content.

For example the barbarian section would have all the barbarian options together in a meaningful way
No barbarians, wild animals, barbarian invasions or pirates.
Wild animals only
Neanderthal spawn rate
Wild animals spawn rate
Barbarian cities become nations (including all the when and where as in BUG)
Raging Barbarians
Barbarians always raze cities they conquer
Bad Karma - Pirates and Barbarians (including spawn rate)
Sabretooth Tigers
Zebra and zebra units

strategyonly
Jan 17, 2014, 12:15 PM
It has been done in other mods (AnyFun Mod for example).

Where is this mod located at??

Dancing Hoskuld
Jan 17, 2014, 01:59 PM
Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=452347) sort of. It is in Chinese translated to English with Google.

platyping
Jan 17, 2014, 04:51 PM
And another line for cannotResearch which can be dll or python for same thing.


You are always talking about what is displayed on the screen...
If you just hide the Tech from the Screen the AI continues to see it. This is the real problem and to solve this there are also many different solutions.

AI wont research what nobody can research