Subdued Animals in C2C discussions [Archive] - Page 3

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 01, 2011, 02:24 PM

In my curent (snail) game the Animals have filled around every 2nd unclaimed teretory and from this there where no non Animal Barabrian spawns for a long time (till I started to active hunt the animals down). I think I only saw 1 Neandertaler Unit in my complet game and by now the Barbarian forming theyr own Setlements with bears and co as guards. (But even so fare there where just 3 more normal Barbarian showing up near my border)

If there would be a option to reduce the Animal spawn rate to maybe 10-25% of what it is in v19 I would pick it in my next game especial if all animals are removed that cant be captured.

Animal spawn rate is controlled by the variable ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER in Assets/XML/A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. It defaults to 100 and is a percentage, reducing the value will reduce the spawn rate.

BtW what speed/size map are you playing on? The rate is about right for me on snail/huge.

Schwarzbart

Dec 01, 2011, 02:40 PM

I am also playing Snail/Huge 25 Empiers and only 50% Water, Wet & Hot Climate if I remember right. The problem is maybe that thanks to minor empier setting the NPCs didn't hunt so much at the begin and so everything got filled with animals bevore the first neandertaler would spawn because in oposit to normal barabarian the animal dont get killed if no one leave theyr boarder.

Hydromancerx

Dec 03, 2011, 03:32 AM

@SaibotLieh

Sorry to bother you again. But I tried your Partitions trick and the creature is missing parts when I do. Can you take a look at this ball python please? I posted the version where its invisible, not the one where you can see only parts of it. Thus the Partitions are still there since I am not sure if deleted more than I should have.

SaibotLieh

Dec 04, 2011, 01:46 PM

Hydromancerx

Dec 04, 2011, 07:07 PM

What's "Triangulate" do?

EldrinFal

Dec 05, 2011, 10:30 AM

Animal spawn rate is controlled by the variable ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER in Assets/XML/A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. It defaults to 100 and is a percentage, reducing the value will reduce the spawn rate.

BtW what speed/size map are you playing on? The rate is about right for me on snail/huge.

Did you make very recent changes to it? I'm playing on Snail/Giant as well, but I DO use Raging Barbs, so I'd expect more than normal, but what I'm seeing is almost wall to wall animals in unexplored regions.

On another note, Dancing Hoskuld, were you planning to make Mermaids subdue-able and buildings for them to make? At the least, something like "Tale of the Mermaid" which grants a +1 :culture: and I'd also think you could have one caged for the Carnival. We need like a Freak Show add-on building to that which can take caged oddities such as the Mermaid, Neanderthal, Monster Fish, Leviathan, etc.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 05, 2011, 01:42 PM

Did you make very recent changes to it? I'm playing on Snail/Giant as well, but I DO use Raging Barbs, so I'd expect more than normal, but what I'm seeing is almost wall to wall animals in unexplored regions.

Nothing new there. However I realised that I had done no work on the very newest animals, pheasant etc so they are spawning far too much.

On another note, Dancing Hoskuld, were you planning to make Mermaids subdue-able and buildings for them to make? At the least, something like "Tale of the Mermaid" which grants a +1 :culture: and I'd also think you could have one caged for the Carnival. We need like a Freak Show add-on building to that which can take caged oddities such as the Mermaid, Neanderthal, Monster Fish, Leviathan, etc.

The Mermaid and Monster Fish are place holders and I think we have enough "real" animals to remove them now.

SaibotLieh

Dec 05, 2011, 03:07 PM

What's "Triangulate" do?
I can't answer that with certainly, but it has something to do with the way the polygons are managed. I guess triangulate means that you have polygons with three edges, and stripified polygons have four edges. I just know that this can lead to problems sometimes, so it is something I check regulary when I have some with my units.

Hydromancerx

Dec 05, 2011, 04:22 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

Since updating I get a fail to load error for the Pheasant's UnitClassinfo, UnitInfos, ThreatPromos and SpawnInfos.

EDIT: I think its because you have it set at ..

<Civ4SpawnInfos xmlns="x-schema:DH7_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">

when it should be ...

<Civ4SpawnInfos xmlns="x-schema:DH7_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">

Or just change the schema file.

EDIT2: Also why is the Subdued Duck just say "Duck" instead of "Subdued Duck"?

Hydromancerx

Dec 05, 2011, 04:46 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=308578&stc=1&d=1323128782

Here is a Ball Python.

Thanks SaibotLieh for your help.

strategyonly

Dec 05, 2011, 04:48 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

Since updating I get a fail to load error for the Pheasant's UnitClassinfo, UnitInfos, ThreatPromos and SpawnInfos.

EDIT: I think its because you have it set at ..

<Civ4SpawnInfos xmlns="x-schema:DH5_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">

when it should be ...

<Civ4SpawnInfos xmlns="x-schema:DH7_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">

Or just change the schema file.

EDIT2: Also why is the Subdued Duck just say "Duck" instead of "Subdued Duck"?

Actually its anything to do with the Pheasant, needs DH7

EldrinFal

Dec 05, 2011, 04:55 PM

The Mermaid and Monster Fish are place holders and I think we have enough "real" animals to remove them now.

Why remove them completely? Although I understand they shouldn't be a part of the default game, I personally like a little myth & fantasy in my game, and would one day like to see a building or two for it. If only in an Alternative Folder or a user folder.

strategyonly

Dec 05, 2011, 05:05 PM

OK i get this NEW error on the Poultry Farm?

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 05, 2011, 05:56 PM

Fixed pheasant and subdued duck. I did not mean to release the poultry farm as I had not tested it yet.:blush:

strategyonly

Dec 07, 2011, 05:53 AM

I think the Skunk, needs to be toned down by one i the spawning area, thx.

strategyonly

Dec 07, 2011, 11:54 PM

Had this error with the most recent SVN:

EDIT: DH7 strikes again.

EDIT EDIT: Even after adding DH7 i get the second error? EDIT: OK i get it, you need the UnitClass Subdued part added also.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 08, 2011, 05:58 PM

strategyonly

Dec 08, 2011, 08:11 PM

Proposal Option to have fewer different animals.

Base Animals you always get these.

Extended animals - set MORE_ANIMALS to 1 in A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml

Base (extras)
- (Ardvark, Badger, Beaver, Ratel, Skunk)
Bear (Panda Bear, Polar Bear)
Bengal Tiger (Siberian Tiger, Sabre Tooth Tiger?)
Bison, Cow (Bongo, Buffalo, Wildebeast)
Boar (Tapir)
Camel (Guanaco)
Cobra (Ball python)
Cheetah (Jaguar, Panther)
Deer (Caribou, Moose, Muskox)
Elephant (Rhino, Hippo, Mammoth)
Gorilla (Mandrill, Orangutan)
Horse, Donkey (Giraffe, Gazelle, Gemsbok, Ibex, Okapi, Zebra)
Hyhena (Vulture)
Kangraoo - red (Kangaroo - grey, Wallaroo, Wallaby, Koala, Tasmanian Devil)
Lion, Lion Pack

Cave Bear, Cave Lion - need extinction dates or reduction in numbers. Grizzly is a cave bear.

Crocodile Large Land (small and salt water, Gharrial)
Komodo Dragon (Nile Monitor, both Tortoises, Iguana)

Ostrich (Cassowary, Emu, Moa, Rhea)
Hawk (Eagle, Haast's Eagle)
Duck (Pheasant, Turkey, Rockhopper Penguin, Emperor Penguin, Horned Owl)

- (Giant Squid, Seaturtle, Crab, Manta Ray, Eagle Ray)
Reef Shark (Great White, Hammerhead and Whale sharks)
Humpback Whale (Orca, Narhwal, Minkie Whale, Beluga, Dolphin)
Tuna (Mackerel, Marlin, Cod)

Not only will using just the base animals limit the type of animals it will also limit the buildings and units also. In the base version you would not get giraffe archers, for example. I think they will not still show in the pedia either.

:hmm: I dont think this is the way to go, no offense.

I think that only the spawn rate should be affected. The sea ones aren't that many to begin with, so i dont think it really matters on those. And the ones you do get are far and inbetween. (just scale way down the ones most people dont know about).

I like having all the different species, but only on a limited bases. Let say for example as you have it:

Horse, Donkey (Giraffe, Gazelle, Gemsbok, Ibex, Okapi, Zebra)

Horse and Donkey definitely more (5), but in desert area same for Giraffe (4) and Zebra, now the Gazelle (3), is more a (i believe) wetlands animal. But the rest (Gemsbok, Ibex, Okapi) i never even heard of so waaaay less from a 1-5 scale maybe a 1 as being spawned. Footnote: (#'s are scaled spawning rates).

Something like this would make more sense, IMHO that is, but hey your the Subdue Animals person.;)

Hydromancerx

Dec 08, 2011, 08:40 PM

:hmm: I dont think this is the way to go, no offense.

I agree. Diversity is awesome!!! Keep allthe animals but limit them but hemisphere (north vs south) and new world vs old world.

Also "Hyhena"! Hell yeah! ;)

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 08, 2011, 09:12 PM

First of all I thought it would be easy but we (I) forgot to get AIAndy to put all the options stuff in the Spawn file. This means it can't be done at all at the moment. :(

The point of this was to allow people to use a less graphics intensive option. Less types of animals means less graphics memory. Not much but less all the same.

I agree. Diversity is awesome!!! Keep allthe animals but limit them but hemisphere (north vs south) and new world vs old world.

Also "Hyhena"! Hell yeah! ;)

Can't restrict their movement, except by terrain and feature types, so they may spawn in the north but wander to the south!

Hydromancerx

Dec 08, 2011, 09:36 PM

Here is a list of land animal I propose be separated into 4 regions;

1. Northern Hemisphere Old World
2. Northern Hemisphere New World
3. Southern Hemisphere Old World
4. Southern Hemisphere New World

Northern Hemisphere Old World (Eurasia)
- Badger
- Beaver
- Wolverine
- Bear
- Panda
- Polar Bear
- Grizzly
- Siberian Tiger
- Bengal Tiger
- Sabertooth Tiger
- Aurochs
- Buffalo
- Boar
- Tapir
- Camel
- Cobra
- Ball Python
- Panther
- Deer
- Moose
- Muskox
- Elephant
- Rhino
- Mammoth
- Orangutan
- Horse
- Onager
- Ibex
- Vulture
- Cave Bear
- Cave Lion
- Wolf
- Dire Wolf
- Crocodile
- Gharrial
- Komodo Dragon
- Desert Tortoise
- Hawk
- Eagle
- Duck
- Pheasant
- Horned Owl

Northern Hemisphere New World (Americas)
- Badger
- Beaver
- Skunk
- Wolverine
- Bear
- Polar Bear
- Grizzly
- Sabertooth Tiger
- Bison
- Boar
- Tapir
- Guanaco
- Jaguar
- Deer
- Caribou
- Moose
- Muskox
- Mammoth
- Vulture
- Cave Bear
- Wolf
- Dire Wolf
- Crocodile
- Desert Tortoise
- Galapagos Tortoise
- Iguana
- Rhea
- Hawk
- Eagle
- Duck
- Pheasant
- Turkey
- Horned Owl

Southern Hemisphere Old World (Africa)
- Aardvark
- Ratel
- Sabertooth Tiger
- Bongo
- Buffalo
- Wildebeest
- Warthog
- Camel
- Cobra
- Ball Python
- Cheetah
- Panther
- Elephant
- Rhino
- Hippo
- Gorilla
- Mandrill
- Zebra
- Giraffe
- Gazelle
- Gemsbok
- Okapi
- Hyena
- Vulture
- Lion
- Lion Pack
- Crocodile
- Nile Monitor
- Desert Tortoise
- Ostrich
- Hawk
- Eagle
- Duck

Southern Hemisphere New World (Oceania)
- Vulture
- Red Kangraoo
- Grey Kangaroo
- Wallaroo
- Wallaby
- Koala
- Tasmanian Devil
- Quoll
- Crocodile
- Desert Tortoise
- Cassowary
- Emu
- Moa
- Hawk
- Eagle
- Haast's Eagle
- Duck
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Emperor Penguin

I hope I did not forget any.

EldrinFal

Dec 08, 2011, 09:43 PM

Can't restrict their movement, except by terrain and feature types, so they may spawn in the north but wander to the south!

Yeah actually on that note, I'm a little uncertain about restricting land animal movement by terrain because I've seen situations where an animal spawns and then sits on the same tile forever because it can't move into a neighboring tile. That in turn would block that tile from allowing any other spawns each turn.

I guess I can see the need with animals that require water, like the Croc and maybe even Ducks, but I would expect most others to be allowed to roam.

Hydromancerx

Dec 08, 2011, 09:45 PM

Can't restrict their movement, except by terrain and feature types, so they may spawn in the north but wander to the south!

That's why you got to put more restrictions on their terrain for instance Muskoxen should not be able to wander all the way to the south pole. Likewise penguin should not be able to wander up to the north pole. Biomes like deserts and jungle should stop them.

The list above should solve problems of species spawning in the wrong region of the globe. Wandering can be addressed later. For example you thinking the Rhea is from South Africa when it as from South America thus making it "Southern Hemisphere New World" not "Southern Hemisphere Old World".

Yeah actually on that note, I'm a little uncertain about restricting land animal movement by terrain because I've seen situations where an animal spawns and then sits on the same tile forever because it can't move into a neighboring tile. That in turn would block that tile from allowing any other spawns each turn.

I guess I can see the need with animals that require water, like the Croc and maybe even Ducks, but I would expect most others to be allowed to roam.

Well some should not wander into the other extreme such as polar creatures not wandering into desert or rainforest type biomes. Likewise a desert creature should not be able to wanted into a jungle or polar region either. Mot animal fall into one of these categories ...

Arid (Desert, Dune, Salt Flats, Scrub)
Polar (Tundra, Permafrost, Ice)
Flatlands (Plains, Grassland, Savanna)
Highlands (Rocky, Barren, Peaks)
Woodlands (Forest, Bamboo)
Rainforest (Jungle, Bamboo, Muddy, Lush)
Wetlands (Marsh, Swamp, Muddy, Flood Plains)

EldrinFal

Dec 08, 2011, 09:53 PM

That's why you got to put more restrictions on their terrain for instance Muskoxen should not be able to wander all the way to the south pole. Likewise penguin should not be able to wander up to the north pole. Biomes like deserts and jungle should stop them.

The list above should solve problems of species spawning in the wrong region of the globe. Wandering can be addressed later. For example you thinking the Rhea is from South Africa when it as from South America thus making it "Southern Hemisphere New World" not "Southern Hemisphere Old World".

I understand the realistic nature of what this is trying to accomplish, but I think most maps will have bodies of water or mountains that block a full migration from one end of the map to another. Even on a Pangaea, I think the likelihood of an animal wandering across the entire map-- considering natural land features, other animals, and Civ units hunting them-- is fairly small.

Just trying to weigh out the pro/con of a static animal stuck in a tile compared to preventing them from moving into regions they may not normally inhabit, whether that be specific terrain/features or entire regions. Not all maps have large clusters of the same terrain where animals can run around in.

Hydromancerx

Dec 08, 2011, 09:59 PM

I understand the realistic nature of what this is trying to accomplish, but I think most maps will have bodies of water or mountains that block a full migration from one end of the map to another. Even on a Pangaea, I think the likelihood of an animal wandering across the entire map-- considering natural land features, other animals, and Civ units hunting them-- is fairly small.

Just trying to weigh out the pro/con of a static animal stuck in a tile compared to preventing them from moving into regions they may not normally inhabit, whether that be specific terrain/features or entire regions. Not all maps have large clusters of the same terrain where animals can run around in.

Well how often is there only 1 polar (tundra/permafrost/ice) tile or only 1 arid (desert/dune/scrub/salt flat)? I think within the 7 "zones" listed above any species should have enough tiles to move around in. Unless you have really bad luck of a very scrambled map (ex. tundra next to jungle)

Hydromancerx

Dec 09, 2011, 02:16 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=308806&stc=1&d=1323422143

Here is a Viper. It may need its name changed if I find any more kinds of vipers but for now the name viper should work to distinguish it from other snakes.

Hydromancerx

Dec 09, 2011, 03:15 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=308810&stc=1&d=1323425763

Here is a Capybara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara). It is the largest rodent in the world and lives in South America. It is semi-aquatic is sometimes kept as a pet. Think of it as a dog sized hamster that loves to swim.

Hydromancerx

Dec 09, 2011, 03:32 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

1. Found a small bug, the Subdued Marilin just is called "Marilin" and not "Subdued Marilin".

2. I have some different kinds of crocs that I could add that look a bit better than the ones we have. I was thinking of adding them like this ...

Saltwater Crocodile (Large) -> Saltwater Crocodile
Saltwater Crocodile (Small) -> Marine Caiman

River Crocodile (Large) -> Nile Crocodile
Saltwater Crocodile (Small) -> River Caiman

I also could possibly add an Alligator and/or Freshwater Crocodile.

In short if I can get them working would you be open to having the generic re-sized crocs replaced with different looking crocodillians?

3. I also want to try to get a Spotted Hyena put in and then have the existing renamed "Striped Hyena" since that's the model they used. But the problem is the pic it uses is of a spotted hyena. So their pics will have to be swapped as well. Note that spotted hyenas are the typical hyenas that you normally think of as "laughing hyenas".

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 09, 2011, 03:34 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

1. Found a small bug, the Subdued Marilin just is called "Marilin" and not "Subdued Marilin".

2. I have some different kinds of crocs that I could add that look a bit better than the ones we have. I was thinking of adding them like this ...

Saltwater Crocodile (Large) -> Saltwater Crocodile
Saltwater Crocodile (Small) -> Marine Caiman

River Crocodile (Large) -> Nile Crocodile
Saltwater Crocodile (Small) -> River Caiman

I also could possibly add an Alligator and/or Freshwater Crocodile.

In short if I can get them working would you be open to having the generic re-sized crocs replaced with different looking crocodillians?

The only problem I have with that is that in 6 days I will be heading off and wont have internet access until I get back.

Hydromancerx

Dec 09, 2011, 03:37 AM

The only problem I have with that is that in 6 days I will be heading off and wont have internet access until I get back.

For how long? Note these changes are not very urgent. I have been sitting on my hands for them for awhile since I would much rather put new animals than replacing existing ones.

EldrinFal

Dec 09, 2011, 05:53 PM

Well how often is there only 1 polar (tundra/permafrost/ice) tile or only 1 arid (desert/dune/scrub/salt flat)? I think within the 7 "zones" listed above any species should have enough tiles to move around in. Unless you have really bad luck of a very scrambled map (ex. tundra next to jungle)

It could be my luck :) I know that the Mongoose et al map scripts are better in regards to lumping same terrain together, but I really dislike how the mountains work in those scripts and the proliferation of islands and big oceans. I almost always use Planet Generator and that one will speckle in terrains here and there, though it is still good about cold being in the polar regions and hot in the middle.

It's not a big deal either way to be honest. I think it's cool they spawn where they would naturally be geographically, but more than once I have seen a Camel sitting on a single desert tile or a horse on a horse resource that can move to any tile next to it.

Hydromancerx

Dec 09, 2011, 07:03 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

Here are some new icon/buttons for you.

- Duck
- Owl
- Honey Badger
- Air Symbol
- Fire Symbol
- Water Symbol
- Earth Symbol

The elements can be used for your Myth - Sky, Myth - Sea, Myth - Earth and related songs.

Enjoy! :goodjob:

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 10, 2011, 05:07 AM

Update

Kangaroos and the like can now be subdued and build buildings. Note the Koala is completely harmless and the Tasmanian Devil is harmless.

Uberslacker

Dec 10, 2011, 10:02 PM

>>>the Tasmanian Devil is harmless<<<

Only because they're nearly extinct... :)

Hydromancerx

Dec 10, 2011, 10:52 PM

>>>the Tasmanian Devil is harmless<<<

Harmless?

Bite of the Tasmanian Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyvPjn2m240)

AIAndy

Dec 12, 2011, 07:34 AM

It could be my luck :) I know that the Mongoose et al map scripts are better in regards to lumping same terrain together, but I really dislike how the mountains work in those scripts and the proliferation of islands and big oceans. I almost always use Planet Generator and that one will speckle in terrains here and there, though it is still good about cold being in the polar regions and hot in the middle.
I would love to have height map and climate map generation separate and freely combinable at some point but unfortunately the way the map scripts are made that is a lot of work.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 12, 2011, 01:17 PM

Harmless?

Bite of the Tasmanian Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyvPjn2m240)

It goes

Completely Harmless - pheasant
Mostly harmless -
Harmless - Tasi Devils
Nonthreatening -
Normal - Lions etc.

Extremely dangerous to wheeled units - wombat (mostly harmless otherwise)

Hydromancerx

Dec 12, 2011, 03:38 PM

It goes

Completely Harmless - pheasant
Mostly harmless -
Harmless - Tasi Devils
Nonthreatening -
Normal - Lions etc.

Extremely dangerous to wheeled units - wombat (mostly harmless otherwise)

But we don't have a wombat (yet).

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 12, 2011, 04:26 PM

But we don't have a wombat (yet).

It is an Australian joke/myth/urban legend also has grain(s) of truth in it. In a collision between a moving car ( truck or road train) and a wombat the car (etc.) will come off second best.

Hydromancerx

Dec 12, 2011, 11:09 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

Here are the icon/buttons you requested.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 12, 2011, 11:58 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

Here are the icon/buttons you requested.

Thanks. Rats, I forgot I was going to update the FPK file with this and just released it.

New animals and subdued animals available, a couple of buildings also.

AIAndy

Dec 13, 2011, 03:56 AM

With such a lot of animals I guess it is time for some more actions with them and while I implement the code for that I can also move the subdue functionality to the DLL and the info XMLs.

The actions could have building or unit requirements like you could only have fighting games with lions with a kind of arena building for a temporary happiness boost.

Maybe also some actions that provide a promotion to another unit.

What actions would you like to have with subdued units?

Some examples:
Study a subdued animal for a science boost (amount of beakers defined in the XML per animal).
Butcher an animal for a food boost.
Skin it for a hammer and gold boost.
Sacrifice it for a GPP and culture boost.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 13, 2011, 04:12 AM

AIAndy

Dec 13, 2011, 04:23 AM

First thing to do is fix it so the subdued animal ends up on the same plot as the unit that subdues it!
I'll probably have to rewrite most of it anyway so hopefully it will end up with that functionality.

strategyonly

Dec 13, 2011, 11:18 AM

Still getting this one error:

ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT

EDIT: btw the Viper looks just right, only because of the "white" coloring, whereas you can see some of it, nice work to whom ever did that.;)

Uberslacker

Dec 15, 2011, 01:59 AM

Harmless?

Bite of the Tasmanian Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyvPjn2m240)

Oh, I would never mistake the Tassie Devil as harmless, which is why I queried the idea. :) The >>> <<< thing is a holdover from days without quote buttons, for some reason I fall back into it from time to time.

EldrinFal

Dec 16, 2011, 10:20 AM

Oh, I would never mistake the Tassie Devil as harmless, which is why I queried the idea. :) The >>> <<< thing is a holdover from days without quote buttons, for some reason I fall back into it from time to time.

I think we need to speak in relative terms though and keep in context to what is going on in the game. Military units in the game represent groups ranging from at least a few to conceivably dozens or hundreds of people/vehicles. I understand the desire to make animal units a threat, but aggro Koalas and Kangaroos killing even an injured group of stone-axe wielding men seems a bigger stretch of the imagination than making the animal "harmless" would be.

Flinx

Dec 17, 2011, 04:57 AM

Speaking of animals, i just found some giant viper :eek:

strategyonly

Dec 17, 2011, 05:37 AM

Speaking of animals, i just found some giant viper :eek:

Ah but you haven't seen the Ball Python yet then either, man what a "Snake in the grass." :p

JosEPh_II

Dec 17, 2011, 08:52 AM

I think we need to speak in relative terms though and keep in context to what is going on in the game. Military units in the game represent groups ranging from at least a few to conceivably dozens or hundreds of people/vehicles. I understand the desire to make animal units a threat, but aggro Koalas and Kangaroos killing even an injured group of stone-axe wielding men seems a bigger stretch of the imagination than making the animal "harmless" would be.

I agree.

Question: why don't more animals allow Hunters lodge? The one that do are the same ones that (for the most part) give herds. Why don't tigers, lions, and jaguars give Hunters Lodge too?

JosEPh

BlueGenie

Dec 17, 2011, 10:16 AM

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 17, 2011, 12:28 PM

I agree.

Question: why don't more animals allow Hunters lodge? The one that do are the same ones that (for the most part) give herds. Why don't tigers, lions, and jaguars give Hunters Lodge too?

JosEPh

I went with the very dangerous (str 4) or lots of food (4+ food) animals could build Master Hunter.

BlueGenie

Dec 17, 2011, 12:40 PM

Speaking of; why does Big Game Hunter upgrade to Sharpshooter???

Cheers

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 17, 2011, 12:45 PM

Speaking of; why does Big Game Hunter upgrade to Sharpshooter???

Cheers

Because that is what the Ranger used to, and I forgot to look for a better unit when I added the two new hunters. Any suggestions?

BlueGenie

Dec 17, 2011, 03:22 PM

EldrinFal

Dec 18, 2011, 09:55 AM

I'll look into it. Though I don't really understand the need for the Game and Big Game Hunters. Rangers with Str 7 are strong enough for any and all animal units. After Rangers I would rather see the line phase out, though not towards Sniper unit type units. Explorer type would be better, though losing the ability to attack would be a shame. Maybe have it as a "veteran" thing that a line of Hunters that can attack come at the same time as the other exploring units, though after Ranger it's more hunting human prey...

Cheers

I agree. Hunters are quite powerful let alone Rangers which pretty easily kill any animal there is. Starting with the Pack Mule, the explorer line can also defeat any animal unit, though only defensibly. I think by that point in the game, perhaps the division should become-- I think as BlueGenie suggests-- a "Sniper" line that kills Human/Enemy units at range and then animal/explorer units, which DO have the non-bad village feature + anti-animal and can attack. Unless there are plans to introduce animals stronger than what we have?

JosEPh_II

Dec 18, 2011, 12:43 PM

There are other animals you can use to build Hunters Lodge with. Rhino, one or two of the flightless birds, Dire Wolf, Cave Bear and Polar Bear, Gorilla, Gemsbok, Hippo, Lion Pack and Cave Lion, Large and Small Croc.
All good examples of non-herd animals that can build it. Shouldn't be too easy to build so not all animals can. Besides it's more like the humans that handle the subdued animals that build it rather than the animal itself.

Cheers

Have yet to be able to capture a Rhino even with a hunter unit. Have not seen a polar bear, hippo, cave lion, and only seen crocs in the ocean. Bad breaks then on my part then, huh?

Have captured 1 gemsbok, killed 1 direwolf (which used to be plentiful in v18).

But I have captured a ton of Moose and Reindeer which give the lodge. Have captured a bunch of Musk Ox which do not (and why don't musk ox give herds too?)

Getting overran with badgers, wolverines, cobras, and eagles.

So it boils down to what your chosen map will spawn and were your starting place is, out of 4 v19 games.

I agree. Hunters are quite powerful ...
Really?! Not against Neanders and Barb Stone Axe until they have at least a 1/2 dozen promotions in my games.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 18, 2011, 01:11 PM

Have yet to be able to capture a Rhino even with a hunter unit. Have not seen a polar bear, hippo, cave lion, and only seen crocs in the ocean. Bad breaks then on my part then, huh?

There is a problem with the land crocadilians, someone changed where floodplains occur so now alligators, crocs and gharials don't spawn.

Have captured 1 gemsbok, killed 1 direwolf (which used to be plentiful in v18).

Yes wolves need their spawn rate increased, they are far too few.

But I have captured a ton of Moose and Reindeer which give the lodge. Have captured a bunch of Musk Ox which do not (and why don't musk ox give herds too?)

Moose, Reindeer and Musk Ox may be a bit to frequent but I am not sure. the various Kangaroos and Wallabies are. ;)

Musk Ox does not give a master Hunter because its strength of food when killed is not enough. Do you think I should increase one or the other?

Moose currently gives a deer herd, perhaps it shouldn't as I have not heard of anyone (semi) domesticating them. Musk Ox - has anyone domesticated them?

Getting overran with badgers, wolverines, cobras, and eagles.

So it boils down to what your chosen map will spawn and were your starting place is, out of 4 v19 games.

I don't think I have seen a wolverine in my last two games. ;) Cobras may be a bit high now that we have other snakes and reptiles. Eagles/hawks maybe a bit frequent also, but I am not getting enough!

Really?! Not against Neanders and Barb Stone Axe until they have at least a 1/2 dozen promotions in my games.

JosEPh

As to hunters, I think the discussion is more about the hunting line of units. I added in the Game and Big Game hunter units for two reasons. 1) I was discovering "empty" islands with lots of animals after the current hunter line ended. 2) Historically hunters are around much later but many were explorers also.

The hunter line merged into the sniper line with a large gap. The suggestion that snipers take over from hunters has always worked for me.

I agree. Hunters are quite powerful let alone Rangers which pretty easily kill any animal there is. Starting with the Pack Mule, the explorer line can also defeat any animal unit, though only defensibly. I think by that point in the game, perhaps the division should become-- I think as BlueGenie suggests-- a "Sniper" line that kills Human/Enemy units at range and then animal/explorer units, which DO have the non-bad village feature + anti-animal and can attack. Unless there are plans to introduce animals stronger than what we have?

The problem with the "no bad goody hut results" being on the sniper line is that the explorer line continues beyond this point. They would need to be merged some how, maybe.

Hydromancerx

Dec 18, 2011, 03:29 PM

Moose currently gives a deer herd, perhaps it shouldn't as I have not heard of anyone (semi) domesticating them. Musk Ox - has anyone domesticated them?

Yes they have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiviut) been. They raise them for their "wool" and musk ox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskox) are not really oxen or even related to cows or other bovine. They are related to goats and sheep. Think of them as a really woolly goat. So if they do spawn a resource it should be a sheep resource and not a cow or bison resource.

BlueGenie

Dec 18, 2011, 04:07 PM

I agree. Hunters are quite powerful
Really?! Not against Neanders and Barb Stone Axe until they have at least a 1/2 dozen promotions in my games.
JosEPh

The point with the Hunter Type units is to hunt animals, not to hunt people. Even Neanderthal people. Against normal troops the hunter line isn't as good as it is against animals and other unit types are better against Neanders and other human troops. A Stone Axeman with 2 promotions of Shock can easily take out a Neander if attacking it on flatland, or letting it attack you in a forest. Shouldn't really even try to use hunters, at least not the way it's set up now (which I'm perfectly fine with).

About Hunter line merging into Sniper line: There's really only one big problem for me with that. Sniper line is Hidden Nationality. Your/my hunter type units with promotions geared towards capturing animals suddenly can't capture any animals anymore, at all, no matter what, if upgraded into a Sharpshooter (or snipers down the line).
Having a "secondary line of explorers with attack capability" rather than sooner or later merging into a sniper would be the way to solve that. Or not upgrade at all. Having Ranger as the top tier and without further advancement possible is good too. Still won't have any trouble with any animals apart from Dog Units, but that I can live with. Would like to see implemented that Hunters and Trackers aren't Force Obsoleted though so one can have 15 (elite unit max) hunter types as max at any one time (5 Trackers, 5 Hunters, and 5 Rangers. That way one can gain a bit of XP with Trackers/Hunters in case of a Ranger croaking. Which can easily happen if running into an army camped somewhere.

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

An Idea: Can hunter line units have a free promo that reduces defenders withdrawal chance, and set almost all animals to have 95% withdrawal rate on defend (and normal on attack).
That way hunter type units would basically be the only ones able to hunt animals while everyone else wouldn't be able to do more than defend against them.
Troops going a-hunting ducks would scare them off way before being able to catch them...

Cheers

strategyonly

Dec 18, 2011, 04:39 PM

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

The only reason i change the Ranger back to str 7 was because it
used" to come later, but now it with Falconry for some reason?

BlueGenie

Dec 18, 2011, 05:21 PM

Used to be Falconry and Writing but with changing the Str 3 units to come earlier, aka the secondary tech requirement removed, it seems the Rangers secondary tech requirement was removed as well. Regardless of when it comes a str of 5 would in all ways suffice against animals.
For surviving exploration when enemy troops are around a recon unit should be used instead of a hunter unit anyway.

Cheers

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 18, 2011, 05:36 PM

Would like to see implemented that Hunters and Trackers aren't Force Obsoleted though so one can have 15 (elite unit max) hunter types as max at any one time (5 Trackers, 5 Hunters, and 5 Rangers. That way one can gain a bit of XP with Trackers/Hunters in case of a Ranger croaking. Which can easily happen if running into an army camped somewhere.

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

I still want some more modern hunter type units. At least so they can defend against common units of the time. I was looking at increasing their chance to subdue animals rather than kill them.

An Idea: Can hunter line units have a free promo that reduces defenders withdrawal chance, and set almost all animals to have 95% withdrawal rate on defend (and normal on attack).
That way hunter type units would basically be the only ones able to hunt animals while everyone else wouldn't be able to do more than defend against them.
Troops going a-hunting ducks would scare them off way before being able to catch them...

Cheers

I don't think this is possible as a promotion but it is possible in python. Basically if a non-hunter unit wins a combat against an animal of lesser strength instead of getting food or subduing the animal, the animal would have a chance to retreat. the only problem in doing it in python is that the attacking unit(s) would still get exp and points towards GG.

AIAndy

Dec 18, 2011, 06:07 PM

I don't think this is possible as a promotion but it is possible in python. Basically if a non-hunter unit wins a combat against an animal of lesser strength instead of getting food or subduing the animal, the animal would have a chance to retreat. the only problem in doing it in python is that the attacking unit(s) would still get exp and points towards GG.
As we intend to move that functionality to the DLL anyway, those limits do not apply any more.
So if you could detail the concept and write it down, then I can work from there.

EldrinFal

Dec 19, 2011, 12:36 AM

About Hunter line merging into Sniper line: There's really only one big problem for me with that. Sniper line is Hidden Nationality. Your/my hunter type units with promotions geared towards capturing animals suddenly can't capture any animals anymore, at all, no matter what, if upgraded into a Sharpshooter (or snipers down the line).

I believe all units have a small innate chance to tame. But I agree that there should still be a hunting type, but instead of making it just stronger, which is unnecessary to hunt animals, to give it another bonus. Such as combining with the Explorer. So I think we agree there.

Having a "secondary line of explorers with attack capability" rather than sooner or later merging into a sniper would be the way to solve that. Or not upgrade at all. Having Ranger as the top tier and without further advancement possible is good too. Still won't have any trouble with any animals apart from Dog Units, but that I can live with. Would like to see implemented that Hunters and Trackers aren't Force Obsoleted though so one can have 15 (elite unit max) hunter types as max at any one time (5 Trackers, 5 Hunters, and 5 Rangers. That way one can gain a bit of XP with Trackers/Hunters in case of a Ranger croaking. Which can easily happen if running into an army camped somewhere.

I believe all units have a small innate chance to tame. But I agree that there should still be a hunting type, but instead of making it just stronger, which is unnecessary to hunt animals, to give it another bonus. Such as combining with the Explorer. So I think we agree there.

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

Well... I had lowered it but I guess I was vetoed. At STR 7 the Ranger is pretty much the strongest unit for awhile. Even Horsemen only have 5. Bear riders and such have STR 6. Think even Axemen are 5. Anyhow, it's DH's unit, so I'm not touching it anymore :)

An Idea: Can hunter line units have a free promo that reduces defenders withdrawal chance, and set almost all animals to have 95% withdrawal rate on defend (and normal on attack).
That way hunter type units would basically be the only ones able to hunt animals while everyone else wouldn't be able to do more than defend against them.
Troops going a-hunting ducks would scare them off way before being able to catch them...

Cheers

I'm not sure I'd care for that on the basis that right now there are so many animals running around that I sometimes rely on normal units to kill them merely to cull the population, give me breathing room, and of course cash in on some food and hammers. If the spawning numbers are reduced, and new AI implemented so animals aren't all aggro, then an idea like that could be more feasible.

Speaking of animal hunting units, while I think the land Hunters are OP, Wood Boats feel UP against animals. Again.. that may be resolved with new AI so my Galleys and Trireme's aren't assaulted by schools of angry Tuna, Whales, etc. :mischief:

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 19, 2011, 01:11 AM

Well... I had lowered it but I guess I was vetoed. At STR 7 the Ranger is pretty much the strongest unit for awhile. Even Horsemen only have 5. Bear riders and such have STR 6. Think even Axemen are 5. Anyhow, it's DH's unit, so I'm not touching it anymore :)

I thought I had lest it as you had changed it. That was why I needed the new units. It looks like I will have to review the lot when I get back.

JosEPh_II

Dec 19, 2011, 07:40 AM

bluegenie wrote:
The point with the Hunter Type units is to hunt animals, not to hunt people.

I Fully understand that. BUT, you still get hit with neanders and barbs when out Hunting animals. Then you have to escort (in most cases) those animals back to you cities. That is why I disagree that Hunters are OP against animals Or other units.

JosEPh

EldrinFal

Dec 19, 2011, 08:05 AM

I Fully understand that. BUT, you still get hit with neanders and barbs when out Hunting animals. Then you have to escort (in most cases) those animals back to you cities. That is why I disagree that Hunters are OP against animals Or other units.

JosEPh

Hunters and Rangers have a very high innate bonus against animals. I think the Ranger is something crazy like +300% or more. And that's before any hunting promotion. Hunters are a tad less, but I think still over 200%.

The point is that they are specialized units and not supposed to be good against everything. So if you really want to be careful then you'll have to send a normal combat unit with the hunter to protect the stack from Neanderthals.

JosEPh_II

Dec 19, 2011, 08:44 AM

The scout has a 100% against animals but in most cases it ends up killing the animal instead of capturing it. The success rate for capture isn't anywhere near the defend rate. Same goes for Tracker/Hunter(200% vs animal for defending against the animal not capturing). I rarely make rangers and now with SO reducing their str to 5, because of the discussion here, I'll be using them even less.

So this for me begs the Question:Why should I spend my valuable build time building weak animal capturing units when I should be building wealth so I can afford the science buildings?

I'll answer my own question:Because I have to build them because I need the herd producing animals to Feed my cities and keep production growing(every hammer counts!). Or I can spiral into stagnation because the "costs" to increase science/research rate keep expansion from happening. (This is another reason why I keep saying the City Limits Option is no longer needed.)

JosEPh :)

BlueGenie

Dec 19, 2011, 11:12 AM

EldrinFal

Dec 19, 2011, 12:52 PM

I subdue at least half of the animals I'm hunting with my Rangers. As far as I know the relative strength of the hunter has no bearing on the success rate to subdue anyway BUT the two hunting promotions do and I always go for both as well as woodland I, II, and III before starting to look at other promotions. That said I also keep a few Explorers (or Axemen or Stone Axemen/depending on my tech levels) as defence with my Rangers. That helps protect them against enemies as well as protect any subdued animals.

I'd have 5 Rangers even if their base strength was 4. It's not for their base strength I have them. Could care less if it was 3 even (bonuses still make them better than Hunters), but too high (6+) is in my opinion detrimental to the hunter lines purpose; hunting animals, not military troops or capturing cities.

Cheers

Exactly. I agree 100%. I'm a little more daring with my units though and send Rangers and Pack Mules out alone, as well as Explorers. I rarely have any die and I'm playing Raging Barbs so imagine double the amount of animal spawns. Tile to tile. On that note, I don't see animals stack on each other when moving, and wonder if that should change. Otherwise, they just get locked and unable to move since every surrounding tile is inhabited or has a terrain/feature they are not allowed to enter.

With a +200% or +300% versus animals, the Hunter and Ranger are far and away THE anti-animal unit. DH can correct me since he did this but I think the hunter line starts with a higher innate subdue rate and that goes up with the Hunting promotions. So if you want to capture animals, Hunter and Ranger are you best bet, bar none.

I am REALLY looking forward to AIAndy implementing additional commands for subdued animals (butcher, sacrifice, etc.)

AIAndy

Dec 20, 2011, 05:59 AM

I am REALLY looking forward to AIAndy implementing additional commands for subdued animals (butcher, sacrifice, etc.)
Here are the ideas for the implementation of both subdueing and the additional commands in the DLL (mind that progress will likely be slow on that now in the holiday season as I am not even at my development PC for extended periods):
Outcome types are defined which have prerequisites and a list of promotions or buildings that increase or decrease the chances.
In the unit infos kill outcomes are defined which have a type, a relative chance and gains like yield/commerce/GPP/subdued unit/generated bonus.
When that type of unit is killed, the chances of all outcomes are summed up for which the prerequisites are met. Then a random one is chosen and that outcome is then executed.

For each new command the unit info can also define a list of outcomes and if any outcome has valid prerequisites, the command is active. If you use it, the outcomes are computed similarly to the kill outcomes.

Quite some info to add to the XML but the system is flexible that way.

Koshling

Dec 20, 2011, 09:02 AM

Here are the ideas for the implementation of both subdueing and the additional commands in the DLL (mind that progress will likely be slow on that now in the holiday season as I am not even at my development PC for extended periods):
Outcome types are defined which have prerequisites and a list of promotions or buildings that increase or decrease the chances.
In the unit infos kill outcomes are defined which have a type, a relative chance and gains like yield/commerce/GPP/subdued unit/generated bonus.
When that type of unit is killed, the chances of all outcomes are summed up for which the prerequisites are met. Then a random one is chosen and that outcome is then executed.

For each new command the unit info can also define a list of outcomes and if any outcome has valid prerequisites, the command is active. If you use it, the outcomes are computed similarly to the kill outcomes.

Quite some info to add to the XML but the system is flexible that way.

Don't forget to update the subdued animal AI to use them also (it has it's own AI routine since V19)

strategyonly

Dec 22, 2011, 04:01 AM

OK the Subdued Narwhal in the attached pics cant move??

EDIT: Now whats weird is that THIS Narwhal can move??:crazyeye: 3rd pic

EldrinFal

Dec 22, 2011, 09:04 AM

OK the Subdued Narwhal in the attached pics cant move??

EDIT: Now whats weird is that THIS Narwhal can move??:crazyeye: 3rd pic

Subdued animals can't explore new areas of the map. So they can't approach tiles next to black areas, which I think accounts for one or two of your images. The third one he doesn't have any Move left? ;)

strategyonly

Dec 22, 2011, 09:40 AM

Subdued animals can't explore new areas of the map. So they can't approach tiles next to black areas, which I think accounts for one or two of your images. The third one he doesn't have any Move left? ;)

ahhhh ok, got it thx.:)

EldrinFal

Dec 22, 2011, 03:44 PM

AIAndy

Dec 22, 2011, 04:35 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

How do you have it setup to make units subdue-able? I was investigating a little on my own to see about making Mermaids subdue-able, but didn't see any special XML tag or anything. Can you point me in the right direction? :help:
It is all in SubdueAnimals.py at the moment. But I am currently replacing that system with DLL code and XML (although it won't be finished that soon as I am away from my computer for the next two weeks).
The new Outcome info XML I added this evening is part of the new system.

EldrinFal

Dec 22, 2011, 06:30 PM

It is all in SubdueAnimals.py at the moment. But I am currently replacing that system with DLL code and XML (although it won't be finished that soon as I am away from my computer for the next two weeks).
The new Outcome info XML I added this evening is part of the new system.

Ok, that explains it :) No worries on the time frame. Think everyone is busy or otherwise not operating under normal circumstances atm anyway.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 27, 2011, 01:45 AM

Yes, I a back. I keep telling myself that I should not do the trip in one day, but it is only 12.5 hours driving plus a couple for breaks. I saw my first Koala in the wild. That just leaves a Tasmanian Devil to see in the wild but that is looking less and less likely. :(

@Dancing Hoskuld

How do you have it setup to make units subdue-able? I was investigating a little on my own to see about making Mermaids subdue-able, but didn't see any special XML tag or anything. Can you point me in the right direction? :help:

It uses an array in the Python.

It is all in SubdueAnimals.py at the moment. But I am currently replacing that system with DLL code and XML (although it won't be finished that soon as I am away from my computer for the next two weeks).
The new Outcome info XML I added this evening is part of the new system.

It would be nice if you could fix the problem with the dll side of the OnCombatResult python even which is giving the wrong location for the units involved in the combat which is causing all the problems reported.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 30, 2011, 09:41 PM

New Update for Subdue Animals.

Some more buildings
- Tortoise Shell Worker and Feather Worker provide some income and culture and get rid of more excess units.:) (Forgot to make them obsolete with plastics :(. )
- new Muskox herd provides food and wool
- new Fish Pens are a status symbol and provide fish and food. they can only be built in suitibly advanced cities.

- fixed the problem where you could not build the sea myths if your capital was not on the coast. You now need to build the "Sea Myth" building where you want them first. It and the free "Sea Song" building control where the various sea critter buildings can go.

- Llamas, Wildebeest and Gazelle can now be subdued.

Still testing the various marine institutes. ;)

JosEPh_II

Dec 31, 2011, 08:58 AM

- new Muskox herd provides food and wool

Yeah! :clap:

JosEPh :)

strategyonly

Dec 31, 2011, 11:26 PM

Here is solid proof that its the "Vipers" that are causing what you called the "laser" junk, so they need to be removed until whoever did the nifs can make them correctly.

Dancing Hoskuld

Dec 31, 2011, 11:29 PM

Here is solid proof that its the "Vipers" that are causing what you called the "laser" junk, so they need to be removed until whoever did the nifs can make them correctly.

In that case please remove the archers and caravels as they have caused it for me. Neanderathals also.

strategyonly

Dec 31, 2011, 11:33 PM

In that case please remove the archers and caravels as they have caused it for me. Neanderthals also.

HUH?:confused:

Rasma

Jan 01, 2012, 12:57 AM

Is that a viper on a peak in that screen shot? or am I missing something?

ls612

Jan 01, 2012, 09:29 AM

In that case please remove the archers and caravels as they have caused it for me. Neanderathals also.

What?? I have never had a problem with archers or caravels graphics. Besides, the viper can be removed without affecting much, whereas the archer or caravel leaving would break the balance. Are you using low graphics by chance? (that can cause problems)

EldrinFal

Jan 01, 2012, 12:15 PM

Agreed. I just saw that issue for the first time with the viper but never with any other unit.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 01, 2012, 02:05 PM

I was going to post an image with the archer displaying this "laser graphics" problem, but it broke things so much that I could not get a screen dump. :( It happened yesterday! I am having no problems with the viper.

strategyonly

Jan 01, 2012, 03:35 PM

Hydromancerx

Jan 01, 2012, 03:43 PM

If it is the viper I have no problem with it being taken out if it is causing problems.

Roamty

Jan 02, 2012, 01:53 AM

Can you make just a mod call Subdued Animals. Would love to see just a Subdued Animals mod.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 02, 2012, 02:34 AM

Can you make just a mod call Subdued Animals. Would love to see just a Subdued Animals mod.

I did at one stage (it requires WoC and BUG) but for loading speed I merged some of it into the core XML and now with the spawning stuff it has dll components. There is even talk of moving it fully into the dll.

The spawning code and XML control where on the world the animals appear. It makes it interesting as you can't get all animals without exploring the world and hunting down those mythical moose. :)

Hydromancerx

Jan 02, 2012, 04:03 AM

The spawning code and XML control where on the world the animals appear. It makes it interesting as you can't get all animals without exploring the world and hunting down those mythical moose. :)

So is it just northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere? Or is it set up for the new world vs old world too? Thus 4 hemispheres total?

Hydromancerx

Jan 02, 2012, 04:35 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310468&stc=1&d=1325504125

Here is a Macaw. It probably should be an air unit like you did for the other flying birds. Since they are native to South America they should be lumped with the Americas (North-New World)

I plan to add more birds so you don't need this to be everywhere just because we only have one parrot at the moment. This should also be useful for your feather building and other bird related buildings.

Hydromancerx

Jan 02, 2012, 04:57 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310471&stc=1&d=1325505453

Here is Kookaburra. You should know where this lives. :p

Hydromancerx

Jan 02, 2012, 05:13 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310473&stc=1&d=1325506353

Here is an Oxpecker. Its native to Africa (South / Old World). Enjoy! :cool:

Hydromancerx

Jan 02, 2012, 05:26 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

I found a problem. First there is no "Subdued Gazelle" and the wild version for some reason has all the stats that the subdued version should have.

EDIT: Why is the Musk Ox herd require "Myth - Tales of Fish"? Also the icon it uses is of feathers for some reason. Do you need a better icon/button for it?

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 02, 2012, 01:32 PM

strategyonly

Jan 03, 2012, 07:13 AM

Besides the Great Hunter that i mentioned before(sniper:confused:), this is another downgraded unit for some reason?

From 64 to 32:crazyeye:

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 03, 2012, 01:18 PM

Besides the Great Hunter that i mentioned before(sniper:confused:), this is another downgraded unit for some reason?

From 64 to 32:crazyeye:

Modern Frigate is not one of mine. As far as I know it has been thus for a long time. I just merged all the naval custom units we had around the place into one file in preparation for putting into the core files.

Edit: @Hydro could you use the spawn and art define file in the attached as the template for any future units. Thanks.

Hydromancerx

Jan 03, 2012, 04:39 PM

Edit: @Hydro could you use the spawn and art define file in the attached as the template for any future units. Thanks.

Sure.

Hydromancerx

Jan 03, 2012, 06:43 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

Here are some more icon/buttons for you. Included are ...

- Deer Rider
- Deer Archer
- Deer Trainer
- Giraffe Trainer
- Marsupial Cage

Hydromancerx

Jan 03, 2012, 09:10 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310606&stc=1&d=1325650240

Here is an Arctic Tern. I am not sure about its spawning info since they migrate from the North Pole to the South Pole. They have the largest migration route of any animal on Earth. Enjoy!

strategyonly

Jan 03, 2012, 09:25 PM

No offense to all the birds and what not, but for right now how about, not so many more added, YET. Let us get some of the very needed stuff out of the way, at least IMHO, no offense to anyone.

Hydromancerx

Jan 03, 2012, 10:36 PM

@strategyonly

I have been adding the birds since they are very easy to make. Unlike most other animals I have added, they need no editing or tweaking. Just plugging in the civ4 code and making an icon button for them. It also allows me to accomplish some stuff I have been wanting to add with little effort.

I have 3 more easy ones I want to make when I have a moment.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 03, 2012, 10:40 PM

No offense to all the birds and what not, but for right now how about, not so many more added, YET. Let us get some of the very needed stuff out of the way, at least IMHO, no offense to anyone.

So what do you see as the very needed stuff?

strategyonly

Jan 04, 2012, 03:43 AM

So what do you see as the very needed stuff?

The Health Mod making sure it runs properly, and changes to it to make it better than ever before, and more ideas about it to make it better.

Religion, cathedrals, monasteries and the like, making sure they run and better ideas there also.

Wish you'd re-make the Terrain-Add-on again for normal maps (just for me, that is) hint hint.

I know you have ALOT of ideas, on how YOU want to change the mod, go for some of it, if it works, what the heck.

I am just worried tht when doing all this "extra" animals stuff it takes away from getting stuff into the Galactic area, how we want to proceed, units, etc for it, "we" haven't really discussed it anyplace yet, it needs a HUGE improvement there, then we can come back and add stuff later.

Just some ideas above not all of course.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 04, 2012, 04:17 AM

Well currently I am working on animal related buildings in later eras, pre industrial and scientific areas. They seem to be working so i will be getting them ready for release.

I am looking at missionaries and going back to what Zappara wanted in RoM, ie the WorldReligion mod's method of religion spread along trade routes. It would replace the multiple religion spread mod that Afforess did. I will be using the same code for contagious disease spread also. As I mentioned elsewhere first stem is to replace the terrain mod with a disease which is very similar to how malaria works in the real world. However it will affect many things including the food wastage mod Kosking added.

strategyonly

Jan 04, 2012, 05:00 AM

Hydromancerx

Jan 04, 2012, 05:49 AM

strategyonly

Jan 04, 2012, 06:43 AM

@strategyonly

Any easy "low hanging fruit" that I can do as I go, I will take the opportunity to post. Be it tweaks or bug fixes, easy to post animals or the occasional new random building. Big projects like wonder civs, galactic era and alternate timelines are the big projects that most of my time will be working with. But I got to change it up now and then with stuff like this.

Right now I am at my least favorite part which is text. Next is the data info. While more interesting it is very time consumption since I have to update my online charts (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&hl=en_US&gid=1) to match too.

Actually i do understand that point, and its a good one:p, i dont like adding units , as you know, but i know i must, thats why it takes me along time to do even just one.

All i meant to really say is, lets get at least some things going for stuff in the Renaissance Era and after, and stuff like that is all. Most of the Era's before then actually look great already, thx to everyone's time and effort. BUT once in awhile put some stuff for those Era's in also, "I'm Just Sayin.";)

And believe me, i know eactly what you mean about getting boring, ONCE in awhile, when modding, but when you hear comments from alot of people saying, this is the best mod out there, or this is just a great mod, it keeps me pumping, when i look back at what I have accomplished and what i can still do, i push forward, with guns a blazing.:ar15:

Davidr

Jan 05, 2012, 08:40 AM

Playing on a PW2 map and notice that barbarian Gharials shown on the map appear to be just static icons that do not attack and cannot themselves be attacked and killed / subdued.

DavidR

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 05, 2012, 01:12 PM

Playing on a PW2 map and notice that barbarian Gharials shown on the map appear to be just static icons that do not attack and cannot themselves be attacked and killed / subdued.

DavidR

They are limited to where they can move, but in my current game they did move around and I can attack and subdue them. I think they attacked me but I a not sure. the graphic is static.

If you are playing with the down load version then yes they can't be subdued because I had spelt the name wrong in the program. It is fixed in the beta (SVN) for the next release.

Sgtslick

Jan 05, 2012, 11:52 PM

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 06, 2012, 02:55 AM

When playing this mod I feel quite tempted to turn barbarians off just coz the amount of animals is kinda ridiculous. I have had so many subdued animals that i had to delete them consistently coz they were costing me money per turn.

I like the concept its cool but its frankly, well annoying.

You can turn it of by editing A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml in Assets/XML.

Find ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER. Change the number, 100 means normal spawn 50 would be half spawn rate and 0 means off.

Sgtslick

Jan 06, 2012, 06:24 AM

Cool thanks. done.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 07, 2012, 05:14 PM

Updates
- New buildings Industrial and Modern age buildings - Fur Farm, Marine Institute and some new enclosures/cages.

Enclosures and cages now give science with Scientific method. I need to reduce the science from monasteries to compensate.

Coming soon "Pliocene Park" and other later era buildings.

JosEPh_II

Jan 07, 2012, 08:09 PM

Updates
<snip>

Enclosures and cages now give science with Scientific method. I need to reduce the science from monasteries to compensate.

<snip>

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :( :sad: :cry:

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 07, 2012, 11:38 PM

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :( :sad: :cry:

JosEPh

What and why?

Hydromancerx

Jan 08, 2012, 02:04 AM

What and why?

C2C Team: We made a building that has -:science:.
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: We made a :science: building that cost -:gold:.
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: We made a building that has reduced :science:.
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: We ...
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: :cringe:

JosEPh_II

Jan 08, 2012, 12:33 PM

C2C Team: We made a building that has -:science:.
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: We made a :science: building that cost -:gold:.
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: We made a building that has reduced :science:.
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: We ...
JosEPh_II: Nooooooo!
C2C Team: :cringe:

:lol:

That was a good one Hydro! :goodjob:

But I Still don't want my monasteries science % dropped for whatever reason. :p
DH wrote: I need to reduce the science from monasteries to compensate.

JosEPh :rolleyes:

strategyonly

Jan 08, 2012, 02:00 PM

:lol:

That was a good one Hydro! :goodjob:

JosEPh :rolleyes:

I would have to agree, thx, it made my day:lol:

Hydromancerx

Jan 08, 2012, 03:19 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

"Myth of the Marsupial" and the "Enclosure - Marsupial" seem to be having some problems and are not showing up.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 08, 2012, 03:23 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

"Myth of the Marsupial" and the "Enclosure - Marsupial" seem to be having some problems and are not showing up.

Probably because I spelt them wrong and have now fixed it. I forgot that this would mean that you would loose them in current games. :(

Edit I fixed the spelling everywhere except the art file. Testing now.

Hydromancerx

Jan 08, 2012, 05:08 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

I saw a viper in the snow today. I don't think any of the reptiles (viper, ball python, cobra, komodo dragon, nile monitor, iguana, galapagos tortoise, desert tortoise, gharial or crocodile) should be able to go into the polar terrains (ice, permafrost, tundra).

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 08, 2012, 06:51 PM

Iceciro

Jan 12, 2012, 02:49 PM

Playing C2C made me realize there really should be some way to butcher subdued animals, or decide wether I want the animal to be subdued or not. There were a lot of moments that made me like "another orangutan? I would've prefered the 2 food!" -delete unit-

If not that, at least dont make them cost unit upkeep. There's no real way to store subdued animals for later eras/structures because they shred into your gold per turn.

AIAndy

Jan 12, 2012, 03:05 PM

Koshling

Jan 12, 2012, 03:47 PM

Actions for subdued units will be available soon.

Don't forget to update the subdued animal AI if you're adding new actions.

AIAndy

Jan 12, 2012, 04:26 PM

Don't forget to update the subdued animal AI if you're adding new actions.
I will, as the last step when the mechanic works.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 12, 2012, 04:40 PM

Will you be releasing a subdue animals mod to the community? There have been requests.

AIAndy

Jan 13, 2012, 03:33 AM

Will you be releasing a subdue animals mod to the community? There have been requests.
Since all the code is based on what is already present in the C2C DLL it might be a lot of work to make it function in a vanilla DLL.
I might look into it at some point but currently I think my limited time is better spent on C2C features and extensions.

Sgtslick

Jan 13, 2012, 04:36 AM

Flinx

Jan 14, 2012, 04:20 AM

I just started a new custom game with the most recent svn (1461).
Subdued animals seem not to work properly; i don´t get hammers or food when winning a battle.
In addition wanderers are useless, they tend to lose any fight.
Even scouts do have a short lifespan despite the scout event with combat promotion.
After two hundred turns in game i had subdued three animal after nearly thirty battles.

If possible, please restore the former behavior, giving hammer, food and the one or other subdued animal.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 14, 2012, 04:50 AM

I just started a new custom game with the most recent svn (1461).
Subdued animals seem not to work properly; i don´t get hammers or food when winning a battle.

It does give hammers and food, the message is not being displayed. That bit has not been transferred to the dll yet.

I am still getting about the right number of animals subdued and never the ones I want.

Flinx

Jan 14, 2012, 05:10 AM

Well, i admit i didn't check the food bar. :blush:

If it is working as intended it seems i have to play better. ;)

strategyonly

Jan 15, 2012, 04:54 AM

Dont know if you ever saw this or not??

Flinx

Jan 17, 2012, 01:05 AM

Building herds is available with canine domestication.
But elephants, mammoths, deer, goats, buffalo can be build as herds way before canine domestication is available. My guess would be this is not intended.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 17, 2012, 01:07 AM

Flinx

Jan 17, 2012, 01:17 AM

Seems i should play more and think less. ;)

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 17, 2012, 01:48 AM

Seems i should play more and think less. ;)

No always point out things you think are problems. Many times other people mean to say something but just play one more turn and forget.

In this case it is for game balance and early game fun.

strategyonly

Jan 17, 2012, 04:30 AM

No always point out things you think are problems. Many times other people mean to say something but just play one more turn and forget.

I completely agree with DH's statement 200%:goodjob:

Actuarian

Jan 17, 2012, 02:11 PM

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 17, 2012, 03:20 PM

I have a couple of suggestions for the subdued animals. Not being much of a modder at all, I have no idea how difficult these would be to implement.

First, this has already been suggested, but it there any chance of getting more thematic promotions for aquatic animals? That woodsman promotion sure looks funny on my subdued minkie whale, but at least that promotion gives some benefit to the whale. There are other available promotions that are totally useless to aquatic animals.

Second, why not allow some subdued aquatic animals, like whales and sharks, enter ocean squares. Since they can't explore and they can't transport troops, I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed. It seems strange when a shark can't cross one or two squares of discovered ocean to get to another already discovered coastal square (instead of having to hug the coast).

Third, I have an idea for flying birds. Why not let them fly over water so long as they end their turn on a land tile.

The subdued animals should not be getting any promotions any way.:mischief: However there are a few I would like to add but the system does not allow them. BtS was built with sea not having the variety of land. For example land animal units don't get damage from features or terrain but sea animals do. I was going to split the sea critters into a different group, but there s no point until I can get the sea promotions.

Having subdued animals as scouting units breaks game balance. As we found out when they could enter ocean. Now they don't get to enter ocean until you have the tech to build units that can enter ocean.

I am not sure that Civ IV has the concept of must end turn somewhere. Previous Civ versions did. I too find it annoying. I know of a way to do it so that the birds can fly over sea and ocean but then we would have the same exploration problem.

AIAndy

Jan 17, 2012, 03:27 PM

Having subdued animals as scouting units breaks game balance. As we found out when they could enter ocean. Now they don't get to enter ocean until you have the tech to build units that can enter ocean.
Is it really a problem if subdued animals can enter the ocean plots that you can see? They can't enter unexplored terrain or explore themselves so you won't see anything that you would not see anyway.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 17, 2012, 03:43 PM

Is it really a problem if subdued animals can enter the ocean plots that you can see? They can't enter unexplored terrain or explore themselves so you won't see anything that you would not see anyway.

I can't see the point as you can't have gotten them across an ocean away from home anyway. Unless they were forced there by another nation expanding! D'oh.

As you say since they can't expose unexplored territory it is not a problem to remove the ocean restriction. All the work to put that in. :sigh: :p

AIAndy

Jan 17, 2012, 03:53 PM

I can't see the point as you can't have gotten them across an ocean away from home anyway. Unless they were forced there by another nation expanding! D'oh.

As you say since they can't expose unexplored territory it is not a problem to remove the ocean restriction. All the work to put that in. :sigh: :p
I am not quite sure how to imagine a subdued whale anyway. Does it follow you around?
But if it is work to remove the ocean restrictions, leave them in. As you say there is little real use you can get from the ocean crossing.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 17, 2012, 03:57 PM

I am not quite sure how to imagine a subdued whale anyway. Does it follow you around?
But if it is work to remove the ocean restrictions, leave them in. As you say there is little real use you can get from the ocean crossing.

With sea creatures it was not intended that they were the actual unit but the story of the critter. I may need to rethink the whole sea animal stuff.

SVH update: Subdued sea creatures can now enter ocean as long as they don't reveil the map.

Actuarian

Jan 18, 2012, 03:47 PM

With sea creatures it was not intended that they were the actual unit but the story of the critter. I may need to rethink the whole sea animal stuff.

SVH update: Subdued sea creatures can now enter ocean as long as they don't reveil the map.

Cool! I was thinking of something along the same line with flying birds, but I certainly understand if it isn't possible or worth the effort.

In more general terms, I think anyone enjoying this mod must already be willing to engage some level of suspension of disbelief. I wouldn't worry too much about having subdued sea creatures unless they affect gameplay in a way you don't like. I do personally find them to be a bit overpowered, too fast and too easy to subdue. On the other hand it would be fun (maybe not so practical) if you could come up with a naval version of some of the animal units like the giraffe archer.

I have to go now. My Minkie Whale woodsman needs to chop some wood. ;)

Hydromancerx

Jan 18, 2012, 06:38 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

I did the following ...

- Added Goat Herd, Llama Herd, Mammoth Herd and Musk Ox Herd to the Shearing Bar Requirements.
- Added Goat Herd, Cow Herd and Buffalo Herd to the Dairy Barn Requirements.

Now I need you to do the following ...

1. Remove Wool bonus from the Goat Herd, Llama Herd and Musk Ox.

2. Change the name of "Ivory" resource to "Elephant".

3. Remove "Ivory" (now called "Elephant") resource bonus from the Mammoth Herd.

Thanks in advance!

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 18, 2012, 06:41 PM

I am having difficulty imagining shearing a mammoth. :)

Edit Ivory is defined somewhere in the BtS files. You could just make a text file with the name pedia and strategy text using BONUS_IVORY and have the text say elephants.

Hydromancerx

Jan 18, 2012, 06:47 PM

I am having difficulty imagining shearing a mammoth. :)

It was requested awhile back. the Mammoth Trainer has allowed for the Sheering Barn for quite some time now.

But you got to admit it would be fun to see people shearing mammoths. Imagine how much wool you could get from them!

Edit Ivory is defined somewhere in the BtS files. You could just make a text file with the name pedia and strategy text using BONUS_IVORY and have the text say elephants.

Ok I will go do that.

Hydromancerx

Jan 18, 2012, 07:57 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

I am thinking about adding a new resource called "Ivory" (BONUS_IVORY2). This would take the place of the ivory when used for stuff that not for elephants. Thus things like the Elephant Herd and Mammoth Herd will need to give a free BONUS_IVORY2. Just giving you a heads up. I will let you know when I have put it on the SVN.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 18, 2012, 08:00 PM

We are not supposed to be adding new stuff this week.:mischief: Otherwise I would be suggesting that we convert all the buildings that use gems to amber, jade, diamonds, rubies, emerlads and saphires and replace the gemstone bonus with the gems bonus.

Hydromancerx

Jan 18, 2012, 08:53 PM

Ok I will wait until after the freeze then. No problem. ;)

strategyonly

Jan 18, 2012, 09:37 PM

Ok I will wait until after the freeze then. No problem. ;)

If you'll can still get it in today go for it.

Hydromancerx

Jan 18, 2012, 11:23 PM

If you'll can still get it in today go for it.

Done. :D

@Dancing Hoskuld

Ok please change the following ...

1. Herd - Mammoth change BONUS_IVORY to BONUS_IVORY2.

2. Herd - Elephant add BONUS_IVORY2 to it.

youmakemefart

Jan 21, 2012, 03:17 PM

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 21, 2012, 03:36 PM

Ok, I tried the mod...

in principle - the mod is really good - and has the potential to take AND to the next step.

I love the new ressources, the new buildings etc.

Well done! :goodjob:

BUT:

the animals, especcially at sea, are really really really annoying and unrealistic.
You have giant squids sinking (damaged) ships...

When did that ever happen in history???

Also - you can't let ships Auto-Explore because there is constantly some whale (realism = 0%) attacking the ship - causing it to stop and heal.

Just imagine Columbus taking weeks longer to cross the Atlantic because he was constantly attacked by squids, fish etc.

Same at land. If you ever need a great general, just put a unit somewhere on a new landmass - constant attacks from Turkeys (???) lizards etc. will give him loads of XP....

Also, I find the whole concept of animals that pass under your control really really really silly, to say the least.

Come on...
:nono:

Fine. This is why I made it modular. You can turn it off.

To turn off or reduce the number of animals appearing in game go to Assets/XML. Edit A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. Change the value of ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER. 0 means none, 50 means half what you get now. Adjust to your content.

To turn off the subdue aspect delete the folder Assets/DancingHoskuld/Subdue_Animals.

If you also want to turn off the food and hammer aspect you will need to also edit Config/init.xml and delete the line for subdue animals.

I did intend to have two sets of animals. The base set with just the basic BtS animals and a more varied set with the lot. However I have not gotten to it.

JosEPh_II

Jan 21, 2012, 09:10 PM

It's okay DH!

Every time we get a new influx of players they almost always voice their concerns over the same things that have been already hashed over by the regulars. They're just not up to speed yet. Nor have they been involved in the multiple discussions and decision making. They're just bringing in their old baggage on how they think the Mod should play. ;)

JosEPh :D

Koshling

Jan 22, 2012, 09:01 AM

Fine. This is why I made it modular. You can turn it off.

To turn off or reduce the number of animals appearing in game go to Assets/XML. Edit A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. Change the value of ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER. 0 means none, 50 means half what you get now. Adjust to your content.

To turn off the subdue aspect delete the folder Assets/DancingHoskuld/Subdue_Animals.

If you also want to turn off the food and hammer aspect you will need to also edit Config/init.xml and delete the line for subdue animals.

I did intend to have two sets of animals. The base set with just the basic BtS animals and a more varied set with the lot. However I have not gotten to it.

There are two (both valid IMO) perspectives from which one can judge design decisions and game elements:

Do they model reality?
Do they enhance gameplay?

I totally take your point in regard to the 'do they model reality?' question on aspects of subdued animals (animals generally in fact). However, for me at least, the second point outweighs the first here, as they add a LOT of richness and unique gameplay (the entire prehistoric era is dominated by hunting strategy really).

Right now, for me, the net balance is in favour of the subdued animal mod (by a considerable margin), though I accept it scores negatively on the realism. If you can suggest tweaks that reduce the unrealism without damaging the gameplay positives then that would be constructive and I don't think DH would in any way be against evolving it.

Here are the elements I personally find unrealistic, so would benefit from tweaks. Unless stated otherwise I can't think of tweaks that address these points, which means I am happy to live with them (my preference relative to losing their gameplay aspects). If people have suggestions please make them.

Subdued sea creatures in general. Suggestion - perhaps they should occur as imobile pseudo-units that pop in one of your coastal cities (and then have the same build options as the current subdued animal) - that would better reflect the 'story' aspect without the weird controllable-sea-creature
Animals killing units commonly. IMO the existance of powerful animals (i.e. wilderness risk) DOES add to gameply (even the unrealistic ones like giant squid sinking ships). However, the attacks by weak animals serves little purpose (except auto-promote as mentioned in the previous post). Suggestion - make non-predators defend-only (to the extent that is not already true)

Iceciro

Jan 22, 2012, 09:11 AM

Animals killing units commonly. IMO the existance of powerful animals (i.e. wilderness risk) DOES add to gameply (even the unrealistic ones like giant squid sinking ships). However, the attacks by weak animals serves little purpose (except auto-promote as mentioned in the previous post). Suggestion - make non-predators defend-only (to the extent that is not already true)
[/LIST]

Having my wounded units killed by savage Ducks is hilarious. And also terrible. I don't know if it should happen or not.
Koalas can actually be pretty serious jerks without eucalyptus, so whatever.

I do know that eagles probably shouldn't be 2:strength: ; that seems a little much, especially for one of the most common enemies. Eagles score more unit kills than anything else; I'd rather lose to Emus which are at least big angry birds, rather than a Eagle which I don't think has ever seen us as prey.

------------
I still think the things like ducks and tuna should be in, but you should actively have to hunt them, rather than them showing a sort of mad-charge instinct towards your nearest human.

JosEPh_II

Jan 22, 2012, 11:02 AM

Having my wounded units killed by savage Ducks is hilarious. And also terrible. I don't know if it should happen or not.
Koalas can actually be pretty serious jerks without eucalyptus, so whatever.

I do know that eagles probably shouldn't be 2:strength: ; that seems a little much, especially for one of the most common enemies. Eagles score more unit kills than anything else; I'd rather lose to Emus which are at least big angry birds, rather than a Eagle which I don't think has ever seen us as prey.

------------
I still think the things like ducks and tuna should be in, but you should actively have to hunt them, rather than them showing a sort of mad-charge instinct towards your nearest human.

Even though I support DH's total effort here I must say I've had my "Oh Crap" moments when that Mad Mallard has taken out my Wanderer or Scout! Killer Rabbit syndrome? :p :lol:

Too bad a subdued Eagle cannot be "attached" to a Recon unit to enhance it's visibility range.

JosEPh

strategyonly

Jan 22, 2012, 11:25 AM

Too bad a subdued Eagle cannot be "attached" to a Recon unit to enhance it's visibility range.
JosEPh

Yeah, but isn't that a game mechanic rather than anything really going on in life?

JosEPh_II

Jan 22, 2012, 12:56 PM

From that point of view then Mad Mallards isn't "really going on in life" either. :mischief:

JosEPh :)

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 22, 2012, 01:27 PM

Here are the elements I personally find unrealistic, so would benefit from tweaks. Unless stated otherwise I can't think of tweaks that address these points, which means I am happy to live with them (my preference relative to losing their gameplay aspects). If people have suggestions please make them.

Subdued sea creatures in general. Suggestion - perhaps they should occur as imobile pseudo-units that pop in one of your coastal cities (and then have the same build options as the current subdued animal) - that would better reflect the 'story' aspect without the weird controllable-sea-creature
Animals killing units commonly. IMO the existance of powerful animals (i.e. wilderness risk) DOES add to gameply (even the unrealistic ones like giant squid sinking ships). However, the attacks by weak animals serves little purpose (except auto-promote as mentioned in the previous post). Suggestion - make non-predators defend-only (to the extent that is not already true)

Having my wounded units killed by savage Ducks is hilarious. And also terrible. I don't know if it should happen or not.
Koalas can actually be pretty serious jerks without eucalyptus, so whatever.

I do know that eagles probably shouldn't be 2:strength: ; that seems a little much, especially for one of the most common enemies. Eagles score more unit kills than anything else; I'd rather lose to Emus which are at least big angry birds, rather than a Eagle which I don't think has ever seen us as prey.

------------
I still think the things like ducks and tuna should be in, but you should actively have to hunt them, rather than them showing a sort of mad-charge instinct towards your nearest human.

I am already working on these based on ideas presented by others in this forum. This is why tuna and ducks don't provide exp or GG points when killed, they are "completely harmless". I have not yet figured out how to make them not attack and not run at the sight of your units so that hunting is possible.

As to sea creatures, I have come up with something like your idea Koshling, but have not thought it through fully nor had chance to implement it in anyway. It will need python so it is good I kept the old subdue animals so I can play with it while I figure out what it is that I require from AIAndy's outcomes mod.

On non predators being defensive only, perhaps you have not seen film of wildebeest attacking lions. Nor read Sir David Attenborough's account on what to do when a herd of pigs crosses your path (climb a tree very quickly), he saw them attack and eat a jaguar. ;)

Too bad a subdued Eagle cannot be "attached" to a Recon unit to enhance it's visibility range.

JosEPh

I have been trying to figure out how to do that and get thw AI to use it. The main problem is that the is only one range for visibility for all flying units. So the hawk has the same visibility range as a late game fighter and this unbalances things to much.

Koshling

Jan 22, 2012, 01:30 PM

On non predators being defensive only, perhaps you have not seen film of wildebeest attacking lions. Nor read Sir David Attenborough's account on what to do when a herd of pigs crosses your path (climb a tree very quickly), he saw them attack and eat a jaguar. ;)

'Predator' was a bad choice of term on my part. I really meant it as shorthand for 'units we dont want to pre-emptively attack player-units because it just seems dumb for them to do so'

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 22, 2012, 01:44 PM

'Predator' was a bad choice of term on my part. I really meant it as shorthand for 'units we dont want to pre-emptively attack player-units because it just seems dumb for them to do so'

Then there is the fact that wild animals rally only represent the rogue elements of the non-carnavours anyway otherwise we would need 20-200 times more animals. ;)

Koshling

Jan 22, 2012, 01:46 PM

Then there is the fact that wild animals rally only represent the rogue elements of the non-carnavours anyway otherwise we would need 20-200 times more animals. ;)

But...ducks!?

AIAndy

Jan 22, 2012, 01:52 PM

As to sea creatures, I have come up with something like your idea Koshling, but have not thought it through fully nor had chance to implement it in anyway. It will need python so it is good I kept the old subdue animals so I can play with it while I figure out what it is that I require from AIAndy's outcomes mod.
I could add a Python callback tag to the outcomes (similar to what events have) so you can play around with it better.

JosEPh_II

Jan 22, 2012, 01:56 PM

I just had this strange vision flash thru my head while reading this.

Here goes: The Mad Mallard sees an approaching recon or wounded unit. It quickly grabs it's neighbor the "killer" rabbit. Flying overhead and holding the rabbit it tells the Rabbit when to 'loose' its "killer pellet bombs" on the unsuspecting Recon or wounded unit. Target destroyed! The country side is safe again for baby ducks and rabbits to frolick and play! :joke: :mischief:

Sorry DH, I couldn't help myself :lol:

JosEPh ;)

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 22, 2012, 03:01 PM

JosEPh_II

Jan 22, 2012, 03:16 PM

Did you at least chuckle over my little vision? ;)

JosEPh :D

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 22, 2012, 03:27 PM

Did you at least chuckle over my little vision? ;)

JosEPh :D

Oh yes. How else will the meek inherit the earth if thy don't gang up on the strong. ;)

Koshling

Jan 22, 2012, 04:04 PM

Oh yes. How else will the meek inherit the earth if thy don't gang up on the strong. ;)

Leveraged buyout of course!

Hydromancerx

Jan 22, 2012, 09:25 PM

But...ducks!?

My sister when she was little got a little to close to a mother duck with her babies and was attacked by the mother duck. She is still scared of ducks to this day. I am dead serious. No joke.

strategyonly

Jan 23, 2012, 01:05 AM

My sister when she was little got a little to close to a mother duck with her babies and was attacked by the mother duck. She is still scared of ducks to this day. I am dead serious. No joke.

Try going near little "Geese" once and find out what an attack of the fine feathered friends are all about, or even a "Black Bird" baby, they will swoop down and pick at your head. Infact actually any animals with little ones will cause this behavior. I know i have done each:scared:

BlueGenie

Jan 23, 2012, 02:28 AM

Most animals that attack humans do so in self-defence or to protect their young. I wouldn't really call that attacking, and certainly not "seek out and destroy".
Besides it's seldom a human actually dies from such an event, and even if that happened it's a single human, not a crack troop of them.

Cheers

Iceciro

Jan 23, 2012, 03:36 AM

If you made them unable to attack, would that cause the AI to run away with them? or would it cause them to flock ineffectually around the hunter? I suppose both are undesirable outcomes.

Koshling

Jan 23, 2012, 06:22 AM

If you made them unable to attack, would that cause the AI to run away with them? or would it cause them to flock ineffectually around the hunter? I suppose both are undesirable outcomes.

Well, neither really. It would cause weak ones to tend to run away, and stronger ones to tend to ignore you I think.

youmakemefart

Jan 27, 2012, 04:18 PM

how can I turn the animals off?

chueche

Jan 27, 2012, 06:19 PM

My sister when she was little got a little to close to a mother duck with her babies and was attacked by the mother duck. She is still scared of ducks to this day. I am dead serious. No joke.

and last week my kids was attack by a white swan. they have only feed them and then whitout aggression or fast moving from my kids.... i look after for swan kids in near, but nothing, probably he must be an sociopath:D

i say to you guys, natur strike back!! mother gaja want our heads:D

everyone where read this take now telephone and order by chinese delivery "duck sweet sour"!! for mankind and for safe my kids:)

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 27, 2012, 07:12 PM

how can I turn the animals off?

As I said in my previous post to you on this.
To turn off or reduce the number of animals appearing in game go to Assets/XML. Edit A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. Change the value of ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER. 0 means none, 50 means half what you get now. Adjust to your content.

So go to the Caveman2Cosmos folder Assets/XML.

Edit the file A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml.

Find the variable ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER.

To turn off all animals set the value to zero (0).

Hydromancerx

Jan 27, 2012, 07:54 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=312316&stc=1&d=1327719277

Here is a Seagull. I had some more of these saved up from before. Posting before I forget them.

Hydromancerx

Jan 27, 2012, 09:44 PM

@Dancing Hoskuld

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=312321&stc=1&d=1327725584

Here is a Crow. Enjoy! :D long with the bird buildings maybe it should have Myth of the Scavenger. Or even have its own building like a Raven keeper like in the Tower of London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravens_of_the_Tower_of_London). Sort of like the "falconer" but for "Corvids". I think i even gave you a myth icon for Ravens too.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 27, 2012, 11:43 PM

I believe he is talking way before Carnival is in the Tech Tree, as i even found out in my last game, i had to delete half of them also. Carnival is just way to late when first exploring, IMHO. Should be something, that maybe give half of what a Carnival does nearer to Hunting Tech or even tracking.

But what do they keep them in? I will consider making the Managerie upgrade to Carnival upgrade to Zoo or something similar. For harmless creatures I will look at extending the idea of enclosures to an earlier spot.

strategyonly

Jan 28, 2012, 12:28 AM

But what do they keep them in? I will consider making the Menagerie upgrade to Carnival upgrade to Zoo or something similar. For harmless creatures I will look at extending the idea of enclosures to an earlier spot.

Cages?

Throughout the Paleolithic, humans generally lived as nomadic hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherer societies tended to be very small and egalitarian, though hunter-gatherer societies with abundant resources or advanced food-storage techniques sometimes developed sedentary lifestyles with complex social structures such as chiefdoms, and social stratification. Long-distance contacts may have been established, as in the case of Indigenous Australian "highways."

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 28, 2012, 12:59 AM

Cages?"

And what are those cages made out of? You can pile rocks on top of each other but you don't have metal or masonry to stop big animals getting out. Mud walls work, I suppose, but that would not allow viewing.

OK, what if
- G pets upgrades to G menagerie at Hunting
- G Menagerie upgrades to Zoo.
- Small animal enclosures can be built from Hunting (benefit doubles at trade)
- All other enclosures with trade
- Science bonus later in game

- Except in city with Place where stuff happens earlier. IE Canine Domestication.

- Carnival is a national wonder
- Gets a subset of display animals
- benefits nation wide

Hydromancerx

Jan 28, 2012, 02:17 AM

@Dancing Hoskuld

And what are those cages made out of? You can pile rocks on top of each other but you don't have metal or masonry to stop big animals getting out. Mud walls work, I suppose, but that would not allow viewing.

I recall reading about some old zoos using pits to keep animals in. Ones that were too steep and deep for the animals to get out of but still could allow people to see them, toss in food or climb down into to clean up the poo.

strategyonly

Jan 28, 2012, 05:30 AM

Shouldn't panthers be black?

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 28, 2012, 05:51 AM

A whole bunch of units are getting the wrong art. They were right in v19 and I have not changed them. :(

strategyonly

Jan 28, 2012, 06:52 AM

A whole bunch of units are getting the wrong art. They were right in v19 and I have not changed them. :(

This might be the problem then, i just looked at the dds file for the panther and this is what it looked like??

Koshling

Jan 28, 2012, 08:01 AM

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 28, 2012, 08:15 AM

I'm wondering if the spawn rates genrally are jsut a tad too high again. I guess more animals have been added, so it's possible thast individual rates need to be dropped slightly. Games I am testing quickly accrue thousands of animals (game wide)

And yet I have had to give up on two games, v20, because I was not seeing any animals.:crazyeye:

Edit I do drop the probability on similar animals when I add new ones.

ls612

Jan 28, 2012, 08:29 AM

I think spawn rates are fine in my most recent game. The animals did a number on my Wanderers, but once I got Scouts (and trackers) and sent them in pairs things got manageable. Getting them up to forest/hills combat 2 usually made them nigh invincible.

strategyonly

Jan 28, 2012, 12:02 PM

Txt . . . .

fixed below thx.

AIAndy

Jan 28, 2012, 02:09 PM

Txt . . . .
Fixed.

AIAndy

Jan 29, 2012, 12:37 PM

I have added the first version of subdued animal actions to the SVN.
Example is butchering of subdued bear (no icons or text yet).
You need a mission in MissionInfo and then you tag an outcome list to it in the unit info.

@DH: I have also added several tags that you need to create the unit in the next city instead of at the unit position and to control butchering results depending on friendly territory or city.

Koshling

Jan 29, 2012, 12:50 PM

AIAndy

Jan 29, 2012, 01:02 PM

Does the AI make use of them sucesfully with the current code?
Not yet, I will add that once DH has added butchering or other abilities to all subdued animals.

strategyonly

Jan 29, 2012, 01:07 PM

Is there a way to make a code or a tag that would:

1. Depending on the size of the map, have less or more animals, ie: more animals on smaller maps and way less on bigger maps?

2. Also Depending on how many civs there are in a game, without the Barb Civ or Barb World figured in?

3. Also would it be possible to have both if yes is to one or the other above?

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 29, 2012, 01:17 PM

Koshling

Jan 29, 2012, 01:35 PM

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 29, 2012, 01:48 PM

Anything is possible ;) Why would you want more animals on smaller maps? Do you mean higher animal density, not more overall? (still why though?)

I think he is saying that on small maps there ratio of wilderness to civilized lands is small whereas on big maps there is a lot more room for animals to spawn.

AIAndy

Jan 29, 2012, 02:02 PM

I think he is saying that on small maps there ratio of wilderness to civilized lands is small whereas on big maps there is a lot more room for animals to spawn.
Increase the spawn contribution from the global settings and decrease the one from the local settings and you get that effect.
You can also use the density limits.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 29, 2012, 02:21 PM

@AIAndy the butcher button is Art/Interface/butcher.dds in my FPK.

Increase the spawn contribution from the global settings and decrease the one from the local settings and you get that effect.
You can also use the density limits.

Yes but can we do it automatically by map size?

JosEPh_II

Jan 29, 2012, 02:24 PM

DH,
Is there a hidden stack limit on # of SAs on 1 tile?

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 29, 2012, 02:26 PM

DH,
Is there a hidden stack limit on # of SAs on 1 tile?

JosEPh

No. Just answered in more detail on the other thread. ;)

strategyonly

Jan 29, 2012, 02:52 PM

I think he is saying that on small maps there ratio of wilderness to civilized lands is small whereas on big maps there is a lot more room for animals to spawn.

Yes, i am not very good with words, but that is eactly what i meant, thx.

Yes but can we do it automatically by map size?

What he said above.

Koshling

Jan 29, 2012, 03:08 PM

@AIAndy the butcher button is Art/Interface/butcher.dds in my FPK.

Yes but can we do it automatically by map size?

We **could** but I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. Think about uncolinised islands - they already tend to get to very-tile-occupied-by-animals in many cases. We'd risk worsening that situation.

I would suggest instead we either across-the-board, or as a new tag on the spawn XML, provide a scaling factor depent on the proportion of the landmass the spawn is happening on (or ocean its in) which is neutral territory. That would be very easy for the spawn code to calculate, and the result would be a boost to spawns on the remianing parts of otherwise highly occupied landmasses.

The scaling we apply to that factor (to the % of the area that is owned that is) could either be a constant, or could be specified in XML, so that we could have some spawns respond to it but not others (e.g - not Neanderthals!)

strategyonly

Jan 29, 2012, 03:44 PM

We **could** but I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. Think about uncolinised islands - they already tend to get to very-tile-occupied-by-animals in many cases. We'd risk worsening that situation.

I would suggest instead we either across-the-board, or as a new tag on the spawn XML, provide a scaling factor depent on the proportion of the landmass the spawn is happening on (or ocean its in) which is neutral territory. That would be very easy for the spawn code to calculate, and the result would be a boost to spawns on the remianing parts of otherwise highly occupied landmasses.

The scaling we apply to that factor (to the % of the area that is owned that is) could either be a constant, or could be specified in XML, so that we could have some spawns respond to it but not others (e.g - not Neanderthals!)

Actually that sounds even better, what to you'll think:confused:

AIAndy

Jan 29, 2012, 04:23 PM

@AIAndy the butcher button is Art/Interface/butcher.dds in my FPK.
I have added that to the mission and extended the subdued bear example (different outcomes based on neutral/friendly territory or city and texts added).

BlueGenie

Jan 29, 2012, 04:28 PM

Would it be wise/fun/interesting/unbalanced/possible if adding a place resource option with enough subdued animals of the same type, say 10 in the same stack, if on a legitimate plot for said resource when using the new and improved Outcome System?

Cheers

AIAndy

Jan 29, 2012, 06:15 PM

Kill outcomes are now displayed in the mouseover (assuming the currently selected unit does the kill).
Action outcomes are displayed in the action tooltip.

youmakemefart

Jan 30, 2012, 10:33 AM

As I said in my previous post to you on this.

So go to the Caveman2Cosmos folder Assets/XML.

Edit the file A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml.

Find the variable ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER.

To turn off all animals set the value to zero (0).

Great thank you so much!!!!!!!
As I said before, this is the sole flaw of the mod, everything else rules beyond comprehension!!!

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 30, 2012, 12:21 PM

Great thank you so much!!!!!!!
As I said before, this is the sole flaw of the mod, everything else rules beyond comprehension!!!

Interestingly enough you are the only one who has said this most comments we get are go the other way, ie it "makes" he mod.

bill2505

Jan 30, 2012, 12:40 PM

Interestingly enough you are the only one who has said this most comments we get are go the other way, ie it "makes" he mod.

its a matter of taste . even if i like the animals some may dont specially because they slow their game or dont like the map to be full)

strategyonly

Jan 30, 2012, 05:55 PM

ls612

Jan 30, 2012, 06:08 PM

AIAndy

Jan 30, 2012, 07:26 PM

I second SO's point, i'm having to delete sooooo many animals in my late prehistoric/early ancient games, its been like this since v18 IIRC. I have also been getting 2 great generals off of killing ONLY animals, this with Barb Generals turned on.
Well, the subdued animal actions are in now so as soon as the XML for all the subdued animals is added you can at least butcher them but probably also other things like sacrifice them to the gods.

Koshling

Jan 30, 2012, 07:28 PM

This is why i want LESS animals on bigger maps, see pic 1, I just got tech Tribalism, pic2, and i have already everything i can get for animals so far(pic 3), and i still have all these left over and now i have to delete ALL the rest of the animals.

What does the size of the map have to do with it? It's just the size of the landmass in relation to how hunted out it is surely? Here is what I think we should do:

when considering whether to spawn an animal in a plot, first check the area its in;
if the area has no owned plots in it at all, reduce the spawn rate dramatically (like 10% say);
if the area contains owned plots then increase the spawn rate by an amount proportional to the percentage of plots in the area which are owned (up to say double or treble when almost all plots are owned)

this has several benefits:

animals don't build up to nearly the same extent on as yet unpopulated islands (don't count barbarian owned tiles as owned for the purposes of the above calculations)
the game doesn't waste time doing ai calculations and moves for animals that are essentially irrelevant
for anyone trapped on smaller landmasses they will quickly get to a high proportion of their area being owned, which will boost the number of animals they see (relative to current system)

I would also make this a game option, because in some sense it's a cheat.

ls612

Jan 30, 2012, 07:57 PM

What does the size of the map have to do with it?

The size of the map goes up as a quadratic, ie if you double the sides the map is 4 times as big, whereas the default number of civs is more or less linear with the length of one side of the map.

Koshling

Jan 30, 2012, 08:27 PM

The size of the map goes up as a quadratic, ie if you double the sides the map is 4 times as big, whereas the default number of civs is more or less linear with the length of one side of the map.

Yes but the animal spawn rate is proportional to the map neutral area, so it's starts off independent of map size (though you're right that the proportionality is lost at a different rate on different map sizes due to differences in civ density). The thing that actually matters is the proportion of territory that is neutral (and so can spawn animals). Cov density is part of that, but map variance is a bigger one, which is why I suggest a system that directly reacts to that owned proportion.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 30, 2012, 09:17 PM

You can now butcher animals A-C inclusive. I have hurt both wrists so this is going slower than usual.

Madd_Mugsy

Jan 30, 2012, 09:23 PM

when considering whether to spawn an animal in a plot, first check the area its in;
if the area has no owned plots in it at all, reduce the spawn rate dramatically (like 10% say);
if the area contains owned plots then increase the spawn rate by an amount proportional to the percentage of plots in the area which are owned

I agree. It would also be nice to set that spawn rate to zero if the land mass is below a certain size. Every single square island in my game has an animal on it ;)

I think the sea creature spawn rates should be lowered too. I think I've killed more whales than the Japanese did throughout real history before 1000 bc in game. Every turn one of my boats gets attacked (and I don't have a lot of them).

strategyonly

Jan 30, 2012, 09:53 PM

What does the size of the map have to do with it? It's just the size of the landmass in relation to how hunted out it is surely? Here is what I think we should do:

when considering whether to spawn an animal in a plot, first check the area its in;
if the area has no owned plots in it at all, reduce the spawn rate dramatically (like 10% say);
if the area contains owned plots then increase the spawn rate by an amount proportional to the percentage of plots in the area which are owned (up to say double or treble when almost all plots are owned)

this has several benefits:

animals don't build up to nearly the same extent on as yet unpopulated islands (don't count barbarian owned tiles as owned for the purposes of the above calculations)
the game doesn't waste time doing ai calculations and moves for animals that are essentially irrelevant
for anyone trapped on smaller landmasses they will quickly get to a high proportion of their area being owned, which will boost the number of animals they see (relative to current system)

I would also make this a game option, because in some sense it's a cheat.

I am ok with this, sounds like a better plan then, if its ok with DH that is??

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 30, 2012, 10:21 PM

I agree. It would also be nice to set that spawn rate to zero if the land mass is below a certain size. Every single square island in my game has an animal on it ;)

Which is very real world like.

I think the sea creature spawn rates should be lowered too. I think I've killed more whales than the Japanese did throughout real history before 1000 bc in game. Every turn one of my boats gets attacked (and I don't have a lot of them).

Not possible. Even on eternity there are not enough turns in a game even killing 10 per turn. Then there are all those killed by the Europeans and others for oil. Estimates are that the current population of the oceans for all species is 10% or less than pre-Columbus days.

I am ok with this, sounds like a better plan then, if its ok with DH that is??

I have no problem with Koshling's suggestion.

Madd_Mugsy

Jan 31, 2012, 12:03 AM

Not possible. Even on eternity there are not enough turns in a game even killing 10 per turn. Then there are all those killed by the Europeans and others for oil. Estimates are that the current population of the oceans for all species is 10% or less than pre-Columbus days.

Sigh - Another little hyperbole lost in a forum... :p

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 31, 2012, 12:08 AM

Sigh - Another little hyperbole lost in a forum... :p

Oh, you mean like when that guy tried to exagerate about the rabbit killing legions of troops and I pointed out that the killer rabit was optional.

@AIAndy, I thought that the third yield type from butchering animals was supposed to be gold. Also the message does not look right when there is a third yield.

AIAndy

Jan 31, 2012, 02:17 AM

Oh, you mean like when that guy tried to exagerate about the rabbit killing legions of troops and I pointed out that the killer rabit was optional.

@AIAndy, I thought that the third yield type from butchering animals was supposed to be gold. Also the message does not look right when there is a third yield.
The third yield is commerce which means it uses your science slider. No espionage against barbarians though so that is skipped and I forgot to add the display for culture.
If you want gold, use the Commerces tag similar to how it is used elsewhere.

chueche

Jan 31, 2012, 05:32 AM

A question: When you sacrifice animals to a god, it brings then culture to the city?

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 31, 2012, 05:59 AM

A question: When you sacrifice animals to a god, it brings then culture to the city?

It is still under discussion. I would expect that it may vary with state religion and civics. As would sacrificing slaves or captives from war.

Koshling

Jan 31, 2012, 10:45 AM

I have no problem with Koshling's suggestion.

I'll do this today so that people can try it out and see how it behaves.

Edit - Just pushed the changes to SVN. Due to what can easily and efficiently be calculated it isn't exactly as I had planned, but it's close. Spawn rate adjustment is as follows:

If the area containing the potential spawn plot is land and has no non-barbarian cities then spawn rate is cut by a factor of 10 (don't bother spawning in essentially unplayed areas)
Otherwise, calculate the percentage of the area that is owned, and increase the spawn rate by between 0 (nothing owned) and 200% (everything owned)

The main downside of doing this automatically (without any control in the XML) is that it applies to all spawns indiscriminately. Right now that includes Neanderthals. I could make it apply to animals only if that was felt to be more desirable...

strategyonly

Jan 31, 2012, 03:00 PM

Gentlemen:king:

I must say i really really really like the NEW Butcher action for the Animals, fandamntastic:goodjob:

:trophy::bowdown:

strategyonly

Jan 31, 2012, 03:25 PM

This might be the problem then, i just looked at the dds file for the panther and this is what it looked like??
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11222162&postcount=694

Took care of this, i had to go all the way back to Vanilla assets to find the correct dds file:whew:

AIAndy

Jan 31, 2012, 03:48 PM

Gentlemen:king:

I must say i really really really like the NEW Butcher action for the Animals, fandamntastic:goodjob:

:trophy::bowdown:
Time to make some more like it now that a lot of that can be done with pure XML.

Some possibilities (not all for all animals, doable now with pure XML):

Sacrifice the animal for great people points towards great prophet (maybe require some building to do it)
Study the animal for some beakers (building requirement?)
Hold games in the Colloseum (or equivalent) with lions or other dangerous creatures for gold and culture
Use it to work hard on construction (needs some tech, 20% chance it dies early for little production bonus, 10% chance it runs away in a worthy tale = culture, rest chance a bonus to production)

Iceciro

Jan 31, 2012, 03:50 PM

Sacrifice the animal for great people points towards great prophet (maybe require some building to do it)
[/LIST]

Oh please gods no! GPs are already the easiest to get; any other great person... :crazyeye:

AIAndy

Jan 31, 2012, 03:51 PM

Oh please gods no! GPs are already the easiest to get; any other great person... :crazyeye:
Could depend on the animal towards which GP.

Koshling

Jan 31, 2012, 03:54 PM

Time to make some more like it now that a lot of that can be done with pure XML.

Some possibilities (not all for all animals, doable now with pure XML):

Sacrifice the animal for great people points towards great prophet (maybe require some building to do it)
Study the animal for some beakers (building requirement?)
Hold games in the Colloseum (or equivalent) with lions or other dangerous creatures for gold and culture
Use it to work hard on construction (needs some tech, 20% chance it dies early for little production bonus, 10% chance it runs away in a worthy tale = culture, rest chance a bonus to production)

Make sure the AI handles the butchering first, before proliferating options plaese or we'll wind up with a ton iof AI catch-up to do.

strategyonly

Jan 31, 2012, 04:22 PM

Time to make some more like it now that a lot of that can be done with pure XML.

Some possibilities (not all for all animals, doable now with pure XML):

Sacrifice the animal for great people points towards great prophet (maybe require some building to do it)
Study the animal for some beakers (building requirement?

Hold games in the Colosseum (or equivalent) with lions or other dangerous creatures for gold and culture
Use it to work hard on construction (needs some tech, 20% chance it dies early for little production bonus, 10% chance it runs away in a worthy tale = culture, rest chance a bonus to production)

I really like the bold above.

And most definitely as stated below:

Make sure the AI handles the butchering first, before proliferating options plaese or we'll wind up with a ton iof AI catch-up to do.

AIAndy

Jan 31, 2012, 04:48 PM

Make sure the AI handles the butchering first, before proliferating options plaese or we'll wind up with a ton iof AI catch-up to do.
I intend to make it evaluate the outcomes so it should not matter how many such actions someone makes in the meantime.

Something like that:

Only consider outcome actions if there is no building to build (to avoid having to compare buildings and actions for now)
Evaluate the value of the outcomes associated with each action
Evaluate the cost to move the unit to the right position
Choose and push the mission

Koshling

Jan 31, 2012, 04:56 PM

I intend to make it evaluate the outcomes so it should not matter how many such actions someone makes in the meantime.

Something like that:

Only consider outcome actions if there is no building to build (to avoid having to compare buildings and actions for now)
Evaluate the value of the outcomes associated with each action
Evaluate the cost to move the unit to the right position
Choose and push the mission

Sounds reasonable. You should be able to more or less copy AI_construct() as an outline, and replace the inner section associated with evaluating builds with an analogous one for outcome actions. For now if you just call this from immediately after the clause that calls AI_Construct() in AI_subduedAnimalMove() you shouldn't have to worry about whether it can cuild anything or not, since build evaluations will already have been done and rejected as none being useful (else AI_Construct() would push a mission).

Once that's working I can tweak things by adding a 'bHighPriority' flag to AI_Construct() or something and calling it before your routine to only consider high priorty builds, and then again after to consider low priority ones if your new routine pushes no mission.

Dancing Hoskuld

Jan 31, 2012, 05:01 PM

Time to make some more like it now that a lot of that can be done with pure XML.

Some possibilities (not all for all animals, doable now with pure XML):

Sacrifice the animal for great people points towards great prophet (maybe require some building to do it)
Study the animal for some beakers (building requirement?)
Hold games in the Colloseum (or equivalent) with lions or other dangerous creatures for gold and culture
Use it to work hard on construction (needs some tech, 20% chance it dies early for little production bonus, 10% chance it runs away in a worthy tale = culture, rest chance a bonus to production)

Some buildings already provide research. The enclosures do with biology and there are special marine buildings such as marine institute, and squid/shark/whale study centres. Although I may not have released them yet. ;)

The Governor's Managerie upgrades to a Zoo and then you can build a national wonder "Montreal Biodome" by PlatyPing which requires a number of zoos and enclosures. (Still being tested.)

JosEPh_II

Jan 31, 2012, 05:20 PM

Some buildings already provide research. The enclosures do with biology and there are special marine buildings such as marine institute, and squid/shark/whale study centres. Although I may not have released them yet. ;)

The Governor's Managerie upgrades to a Zoo and then you can build a national wonder "Montreal Biodome" by PlatyPing which requires a number of zoos and enclosures. (Still being tested.)

I've been stuffing extra animals in the Gov's Menagerie for sometime now with v20. But I have 1 problem. I can't see What the Gov Men provides, as the list goes off the top of my screen. I figured it's ~1 Culture and 1 Happy face. But I don't know for sure, can't see it.

JosEPh ;)