I've been experimenting recently on Immortal with a somewhat different strategy from the go down Liberty // Pottery - Writing // GL - bulb Philosophy - construct NC boilerplate strategy.

It seems to me that one almost always has the 2nd city up from the free Liberty settler before one finishes GL construction and that the construction speed of the library in the 2nd city is too slow for it to complete before one is ready to start building the NC. This leads to either:

- chopping for the library in the 2nd city
- hard-buying the library (400 GP at standard speed - and a 20% buying premium paid...ie. not very efficient)
- waiting to build the NC until the library is up.

It occured to me that waiting and immediately constructing the Oracle in the capital may be the thing to do. Why?

1) Even at deity, you have a high-probability window to construct the Oracle upon bulbing Philosophy. You are generally first or among the first civs to get to the classical era if you bulb to Philosophy from the GL, so competition is minimal. If you're not among the first to classical with a GL beeline, it's probably because you got beat to the GL.

2) The Oracle is very powerful. The free policy and +3 culture per turn gets you to the end of Liberty and your GE that much faster and the +1 GS point effectively doubles the rate of production for your first GS.

3) Your 2nd city is generally done with its library by the time Oracle completes and the capital can then build the NC in an orderly fashion.

The extra speed of SPs and the first GS that one acquires through the Oracle should not be underestimated. The GS will pop early enough (with +1 from GL / +1 from Oracle), for example, that you can use it to bulb Education (rather than wasting the GP from HS) or Chivalry, or you name it from the very powerful late-medieval techs.

The extra speed of SP acquisition is also profound. The combination of +3 culture from the Oracle in the cap and the free SP will get you to the end of Liberty in a big hurry. I have done it in the mid-50's with this strat - finishing Liberty at the same time I finished Oracle, and then had the bonus production from the manufactury to put to use on the NC, which went up in 9 turns, IIRC. I am a proponent of early :c5production:-heavy strategies, and hard-building the Oracle in the cap before the NC seems to be working for me extremely well. Getting that first, critical GS in time to bulb a late medieval tech (I like to use it for Education and save the GP I get from HS for another manufactury, if I am able to build the HS) is also a significant bonus.

Has anyone else tried this strat? I'm starting to move away from my Ironworks beeline strat in favor of a more composite start which focuses on early :c5production: through speedy GP production and settling of manufacturies, builds the HS if possible, but also throws out a few cities in the early game rather than waiting a long time on the Ironworks.

I've been experimenting recently on Immortal with a somewhat different strategy from the go down Liberty // Pottery - Writing // GL - bulb Philosophy - construct NC boilerplate strategy.

Sorry, I didn't read further, but I am not sure bulbing Philo for the NC is the cookie cutter (boilerplate, whatever ;) ) strategy often described here. In fact, while you are building the GL, you will most probably have teched Calendar & Philo so as to bulb Theology for the HS -> GE -> PT build.

In my Emperor Egypt game I managed to perfectly time this and then HG was done the turn that Education came, so I could GE the PT in the next turn.:goodjob:

Now back to reading your suggestion :D

OK, read it. Still, you talk about bulbing Philo which I don't think is what you want to do. What are you teching in the meantime if you keep the GL for Philo? The idea behind the GL slingshot is to get to CivService or Theology fast, not to waste it on Philo, which is reasonably short to tech.

I think if early NC is your goal, you either hold off your second city or buy the library. Anything else is kinda wasting turns (although I must admit I sometimes also wait for it to be built). I am not a fan of the Oracle, I almost always have something else to build. I am not saying it is not a good wonder, but it is just not in my prio list. The +3 culture I am getting from the tradition opener, so I need the Oracle less.

Cheers

Sorry, I didn't read further, but I am not sure bulbing Philo for the NC is the cookie cutter (boilerplate, whatever ;) ) strategy often described here. In fact, while you are building the GL, you will most probably have teched Calendar & Philo so as to bulb Theology for the HS -> GE -> PT build.

In my Emperor Egypt game I managed to perfectly time this and then HG was done the turn that Education came, so I could GE the PT in the next turn.

This is not going to work at Immortal or Deity, however, where the GL will almost certainly be completed by another civ if you're taking so long to build it that you've already got both Philosophy and Calendar researched (without serious luck from ancient ruins). At the highest level, the GL goes up so quickly that you can almost never bulb anything beyond Philosophy, so simply researching lower techs (like Mining, Archery, AH, etc.) in the meantime and bulbing Philosophy is the optimal strat. You'll need these lower techs ASAP, anyway. I'm talking <= turn 40 to build the GL at standard speed (and better <= turn 35) - the "all-out race to GL" strat. Nobody is going to be ready to bulb Theology or Civil Service in this scenario. At lower levels with less time pressure to get the GL done, the optimal strats are obviously different.

I'm also not a big fan of Tradition at the higher levels, except in very specific (like OCC) strats. The +3 culture in the cap you get from the Oracle is a big deal if you're trying to race down Liberty. If you're just sitting in your cap going down Tradition, then yes, it's a lot less of a difference-maker.

I guess I should have been more specific about context in the OP. I've been experimenting with "alterations" (which mostly involve settling manufacturies on hills/plains and going hammer-heavy in the early game) to the high-level boilerplate top-of-the-tech-tree strats. The above was meant in the context of that thought experiment. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.

I should add that I haven't tested GL -> Oracle -> NC (hard build the library in 2nd city) on deity yet, as I have sort of lost the love for deity games of late, but I know that it works very well on Immortal if you get the GL to begin with.

You'll need these lower techs ASAP, anyway. I'm talking <= turn 40 to build the GL at standard speed (and better <= turn 35) - the "all-out race to GL" strat.


How on earth can you manage to build a GL so early? Pottery + Writing are 20 turns already. You need a city with 10 production to get a GL up in that time.

How on earth can you manage to build a GL so early? Pottery + Writing are 20 turns already. You need a city with 10 production to get a GL up in that time.

You can't. That's what the sun king is saying. But the AI can, thanks to his bonuses on high-end levels.

@ Sun King:
Ok, I agree that on Immortal it might be tricky. I usually play immortal (and never go for the GL, tbh) but lately I have been slackign in my games, so I turned it down to Emperor, where this works fine. But if you are building the GL only to bulb philo (ok, you get a library and +3 sci, that might be worth it), then you could as well research philo yourself, no? I am still not convinced that using the GL to bulb Philo makes much sense. if you can even build it that fast.

really nice idea OP. I just wonder, where you are supposed to fit in the military units? Typically if I went for GL early, I'll be building archers between the finish of GL and start of NC. Otherwise I really like the early GS potential, bulbing education is always awesome. I could see this being very powerful as Babylon in an islolated start...bulb theology with GL, research civil service, bulb education with GS, and the Oracle will help liberty be completed in time to do the traditional HS-PT/ND-Astronomy-Rationalism sling. You could cut out the early RAs this way and use the money more efficiently by waiting for PT/rationalism to be complete.

That was exactly my thought, such a wonder heavy start appears to leave little room for vital defence...

That was exactly my thought, such a wonder heavy start appears to leave little room for vital defence...

If you aren't signing RAs, selling open borders and luxuries, you can easily rush-buy Walls of Babylon and a bowman for defense...maybe even 2 bowmen. I think it is viable.

That was exactly my thought, such a wonder heavy start appears to leave little room for vital defence...
Try the wonder scenario. Immortal is a cakewalk and on deity a person can be over run and still pull enough wonders to win. Vital defense? What's that? However in a normal game GL goes around turn 30 on deity in games I've tried but on immortal a person can usually pull the GL.

If you aren't signing RAs, selling open borders and luxuries, you can easily rush-buy Walls of Babylon and a bowman for defense...maybe even 2 bowmen. I think it is viable.

yeah there is definitely value in being able to skip early RAs this way. I am curious to give it a try.

The key to getting the GL before the AI in a Deity game is going to be the free worker from Citizenship. Hope and pray you get either mining or animal husbandry from a goodie hut (so your worker can develop mines or horses/cattle). It's just too difficult to beat the AI to GL in deity unless you have a ton of hammers. Or if you get the dream opponents and they're all fighting rather than building wonders...

That was exactly my thought, such a wonder heavy start appears to leave little room for vital defence...

For the cost of a library, you can have two archers.

If you build two scouts to begin with, you very often also end up with at least one (sometimes two) super-archers. Assuming you get just one super archer in the ruins phase and buy two archers for 400 gold, that leaves you with an army of 1 warrior, 2 normal archers and 1 super archer to defend two cities, no matter which civ you are playing. If you're clever and build your second city on a hill, this should be sufficient. And the benefit of buying units in the early going is that you can do so on an as-needed basis. With a little luck, you may not have to.

This is very doable at Immortal. At deity...dunno.

The key to getting the GL before the AI in a Deity game is going to be the free worker from Citizenship. Hope and pray you get either mining or animal husbandry from a goodie hut (so your worker can develop mines or horses/cattle). It's just too difficult to beat the AI to GL in deity unless you have a ton of hammers. Or if you get the dream opponents and they're all fighting rather than building wonders...

This and really active scouting (you mentioned goodie huts). I always build two scouts right off the bat, and I have yet to see a credible argument for not doing so at the higher levels. The value of goodie huts is enormous, especially the pop, cultural and tech huts (and weapons hut for the scouts). If you scout aggressively (with the first warrior, as well), you stand a very good chance of popping a useful tech and/or hitting a cultural ruin (which speeds up getting out that first Liberty worker) and/or getting an extra pop in the capital (which speeds up both production - if you're not in completely flat grasslands - and research. Getting super archers also becomes much more likely by going scout-scout in the early going...and this obviously helps a lot for early defense.

At deity, nothing is certain and frustration is the norm, but at Immortal a tight plan in the beginning can generaly be seen through to fruition, and that includes constructing the Great Library.

This and really active scouting (you mentioned goodie huts). I always build two scouts right off the bat, and I have yet to see a credible argument for not doing so at the higher levels. The value of goodie huts is enormous, especially the pop, cultural and tech huts (and weapons hut for the scouts). If you scout aggressively (with the first warrior, as well), you stand a very good chance of popping a useful tech and/or hitting a cultural ruin (which speeds up getting out that first Liberty worker) and/or getting an extra pop in the capital (which speeds up both production - if you're not in completely flat grasslands - and research. Getting super archers also becomes much more likely by going scout-scout in the early going...and this obviously helps a lot for early defense.

At deity, nothing is certain and frustration is the norm, but at Immortal a tight plan in the beginning can generaly be seen through to fruition, and that includes constructing the Great Library.

In a deity game I ALWAYS build 2 scouts first :)

Not only does getting goodie huts help you in the direct fashion, but it helps indirectly as well, as you're taking that benefit from the AI...which is a big deal. The AI already has enough of an advantage without getting goodie huts to boot.

And yes, at deity, you might reroll 4-5 times before you even get a workable starting location. I tend to have a short fuse so I might throw my hands up and go do something else for a while when I have a string of crappy starts (first 30 turns or so). Deity is a !@#$%...but anything less is boring at this point! :crazyeye:

This seems very workable at immortal. Just had a game started where GL went to some AI at turn 70. No problem. I had a strong lux area with wine/incense etc. So I sorta rexed/oracled monastaries while juggling the NC. With AIs getting fail gold from wonders my lux selling position only got better. With all the new wonders, it was like money from nothing and did not put me in dire straights. (Pun intended.)

More in spirit with the OP, I modded a certain civ. The ship of the line was replaced by a new UU, an archer that starts with logistics. Machinery is a desirable tech. :mischief:

Deity is a !@#$%...but anything less is boring at this point! :crazyeye:

Above Deity there is something called multiplayer. There you can find tough opponents with no special bonuses. Only real brains. And you don't need to reroll.

I tried this a few times last night as Egypt, then again as Babylon, (on deity) I beat the AI to GL every time (6-8 attempts) but once. I went straight for writing, built 2 scouts, then a monument, then granary (which would finish 2 turns after writing typically), then GL. Taking Liberty for my SP, then using my free worker to develop the surrounding tiles for food. I bought any high production tile I could and focused on production with my city governor. It worked pretty well. I was up against the likes of Korea, Babylon, and India almost every game so I felt pretty confidant that beating the AI to the GL is totally doable (even as Babylon with no marble and no Aristocracy).

With Egypt I would research Philosophy and then get my GL to 1 turn so I could wait out Calendar and then use the free tech on Theology. After GL I went for NC which only took a few turns with my city's production throttled up so high, then HS (which I had no problem getting before the AI). Meanwhile I was researching the maritime techs and then used the GS from HS to bulb Astronomy. It all went very smooth.

Unfortunately it's always around this time that 2-3 of the AI's DoW me. It wasn't the warmongering Civs that did it either. I was boys with Genghis and Askia...it was Harun who straight-up backstabbed me (we had previously DoF). Yeah...

Anyway this strategy worked well for me, and I admittedly didn't take many steps to avoid the DoW, as I was mainly running through the strategy to perfect the build order and just see how it worked.

Kudos to the OP. :)

Thanks.

So I assume you were building the Oracle soon after the GL (though it sounds like not directly after), settling a manufactury with an early Liberty finisher and bulbing Education with the first GS?

How well were you able to hold off the DoWs when they came? Have to buy a few archers? Cheers.

No, as I stated above, the AI was getting the Oracle before I could even get close (around turn 60). As Egypt I used the GL to bulb Theology, the GS from HS to bulb Education, and then the Liberty finisher to get a GE and rush PT. As Babylon I used the free GS from writing to bulb Philosophy early, GL to bulb Theology (about 10 turns earlier than with Egypt since I didn't have to wait for Calender), Education was 7-8 turns away when HS was done so I used it for a GE to rush PT right away. Then the Liberty GP was freed up.

As far as defense, I really got backstabbed by a powerhouse Harun at about turn 100-110 and he steamrolled me, but as Babylon I held off America for 30-40 turns (he DoW me around turn 20) without much trouble at all. Incans also DoW me but they never actually attacked. America kept the pressure on me for long enough that it was obviously detrimental to my infrastructure (workers can't work, cutting off certain tiles, etc.) so I rerolled.

As I said above, I didn't spend much time actually trying to win, I was just testing the build order. I will give it an actual attempt at a win tonight now that I know the strategy will work. :)

The strat described here looks like it will work fine or at least is very playable on immortal. But I'm not sure all the new wonders are good for the AI. First a side note, I played this on a continents plus map with my new modded secret weapon: logistics archers that can be upgraded to longbows--with range! They are killing machines. I got over to the other continent about turn 160 and what a mess it was. Polynesia, Egypt and Aztecs were over there and the diplo screen indicated each had ~ 4 cities. Apparently Egypt didn't like Polynesia getting wonders but both these wonder hoggers had spawned near Monty who had trouble with war chariots. I was able to set up in NEUTRAL turf outside of Honolulu and take it with it's GW, a nice foothold city. What happened next was unbelievable. A barb SETTLER appeared all by itself and I took it. It was CHINESE! Hahahahaha. I had a hey day over there. Naturally, I had left Mr. Moneybags alone on my continent, Sejong, who was gladly buying up all my loot. The domination endgame was basically, Wu and Sejong last. Sejong wasn't going anywhere so only Wu caused a problem. But that mess overseas. It sure looked like it was caused by wonders. Let the AI build them! They can't handle them.

The strat described here looks like it will work fine or at least is very playable on immortal. But I'm not sure all the new wonders are good for the AI. First a side note, I played this on a continents plus map with my new modded secret weapon: logistics archers that can be upgraded to longbows--with range!

I stopped reading at this point.

I dont see it being much use discussing 'strategy and tips' when someone is, effectively cheating. If you have fun carry on, but giving yourself two UUs that upgrade directly to each other with bonuses that carry over - well it would be like jaguars having strength 12. No point discussing strategy that revolves around that.

I stopped reading at this point.

I dont see it being much use discussing 'strategy and tips' when someone is, effectively cheating. If you have fun carry on, but giving yourself two UUs that upgrade directly to each other with bonuses that carry over - well it would be like jaguars having strength 12. No point discussing strategy that revolves around that.
The point is being missed. Modding is not cheating but the perspective gained is priceless. The new wonders are detrimental to the AI. The OP stressed machinery for the ironworks. I simply adapted to get a view on what is happening with the AI.

Modding is not cheating

I very much beg to differ.

I very much beg to differ.
The mod is merely swapping papermakers for range capability which is what a longbow with logistics is. In other words think China here.

I tried Wu and on the first roll I got this wild and woolly start:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=302034&stc=1&d=1316299445Moscow nearby, only a touch of gold from one hut and no CSes found. However it is a strong mining start with Shanghai settling on lux and nabbing the local neighborhood Notre Dame, the FoY. All lux, every one, got sold and all units around Moscow were bought. Wonders started going a bit early save one. National College got done and a settler and a watermill were built and still no GL. Had to shoot for all the marbles and got 'em. Chu's at turn 82 by GLing machinery with 2 GGs from all the action. Lost 2 warriors. Crazy start.

Edit: This was immortal too. I swear all those wonders out there make the AIs do weird things.

This post has been hijacked by anti-modding sentiment. Who cares? This thread is about a strategy (hence the strategy and tips forum). Take the modding talk to the modding board :)

kthxbai

This post has been hijacked by anti-modding sentiment. Who cares? This thread is about a strategy (hence the strategy and tips forum). Take the modding talk to the modding board
Well said. Sorry but I tend to be excitable and often become unclear. I agree that the strat works as mentioned in the OP. A modded unit does not change this fact. I'm sorry if the use of a modded unit caused some ill will. But there is something about the OP I really do want to point out.

It uses machinery which not only opens up the ironworks but also xbows. There have been some curious items appearing of late with archery based attacks. It is worth noting that it is ~20% cheaper to buy an archer and upgrade it than to buy an xbow. For England and China this should suggest that it may be better to buy/build and then upgrade if the lux situation is good. (FoY is ridiculously good: worth 2.5 lux.) It makes me wonder about using normal xbows with other civs.

Lastly, the OP may be overkill. I maintain there is something really funky going on with the AI lately. The best I can describe it is that the extra wonders are overloading already taxed circuits.

I concur that things feel different since the Wonders DLC. We all know a lot of wonders previously un-buildable opened up with the DLC. But I seem to be noticing that now, more civs are not even trying to build wonders.

They're also building wonders that are completely stupid for their starting position. Example: recently, playing against Sejong, he built MoH with no marble or stone in sight.

AI also builds HG with 4 wheat tiles in 2 radius on a river start. I saw a potential +22 food start that an AI scored once; still tried to build ToA and HG.

Back on topic: I'm going to try this strat and build order with China tonight. Any advice particular to them? It seems like a pretty good fit.

I would not build the great library early unless i had a very good start. that means a bonus tile start with both hammers, food and forests.
look at demografics/global politics, if you are in the lower end of the hammer scale do not build wonders.

evaluate every game, you should see the civs of your opponents in the beginning as well as how many hammers the leader produse at turn 13-25. you should also be able to look at theire score if they went worker-settler or early granery/floating gardens.

Use the demografics/global politics for all it is worth in a FFA game online. PS it might be better if the game did not have the demografics/ global politics screen in MP.