Last turn chat, we got a GL! The discussion is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43927).

(now let's see if I got this right. ;)) This poll will be open for 24 hours or until a quorum is met (I believe it's 16 or 17 this term?).

The options are:

- Newton's University: This wonder has the SCIENTIFIC attribute, one half the required attribute for a Golden Age with a wonder.
pros:
Increased science in the city it's built (Kyoto is the closest, and happens to have the highest science)
Deny another civ (Greece in this case) the wonder (also true for any other wonder) feeling better goonie? ;-)

cons:
Newton's isn't as effective on a huge pangaea (it's only like 1 other city)
Would weaken our troops in the western frontier (near Babylon) for a slpit second (1 turn)
*** If we build this, we can not build a militaristic wonder without triggering a Golden Age.

- Universal Suffrage: This wonder has the MILITARISTIC attribute, one half the required attribute for a Golden Age with a wonder.
pros:

Reduce war wariness in democracy/republic (we're a monarchy)
Would prevent another civ from taking it

cons:
Greece is building it (just recently started though)
We need 2 techs for Universal Suffrage (steam and industrialization) (means letting our GL sit for 20 turns or more)
We don't have any immediate plans to become a republic or democracy
***If we build this we can not build a scientific wonder without triggering a Golden Age (This means either Newton's University, or Theory of Evolution, WOULD TRIGGER a Golden Age if we had a Militaristic wonder.

- Theory of Evolution: This wonder has the SCIENTIFIC attribute, one half the required attribute for a Golden Age with a wonder.
pros:
We get 2 free techs
Possible tech trade tool
We get closer to Hoover's Dam

cons:
We need 4 techs for this wonder (steam, medicine, electricity, scientific method) (means letting our GL sit for possibly 40-80 turns unless we find the means to increase science.
*** If we build this, we can not build a militaristic wonder without triggering a Golden Age. (This includes a later wonder such as the Manhatten Project - a.k.a. Pandora's Box)

- Palace Relocation

- Build an army

- Other

- Abstain

Let us not let our Great Leader sit on his hands and knees! Use him now on Newton U!

And, at the very least, it's culture! (Greece has too much of it)

Let our great leader help us when we become a democracy. Let us build Universal Suffrage so that the other Democracy's in the world are not able to take us out in the tech race and in war! We need Universal Suffrage!

Keep in mind that we winding down on one war, embarking on a "phony" war where we won't see much action, and are in an era where starting wars would not be the best move due to defensive strength of riflemen in most foreign ciites against our cavalry. Of course there is always the chance that someone will foolishly declare war on us, but that shouldn't keep us from holding on to Horsa for a worthwhile wonder. And I think we really need to discuss if Universal Suffrage should be that wonder.

Getting to US is another thing entirely, but workable. For informational purposes, setting the science rate to 100% would get us Medicine in 10 turns. However, that would drop us to -140gpt! I think a quick path to Medicine is the answer, however, as we could use it to trade for both Steam Power and Industrialization.

What we should do now is threefold:

1. We should concentrate entirely on production of markets, banks, libraries and universities.

2. To protect ourselves during this time, we should shift our forces to provide the best defense of our borders. We have a good amount of units but are vulnerable in too many spots right now due to misplacement.

3. We should use as many workers as we have onhand now to increase the size of our low-corruption cities. This will stifle tile improvement for some time, but will allow us the gpt to offset a temporary rise of the science rate. Once we fulfill our goal, we can have a massive work program to get those workers back out.


Of course, this plan would only be valid if we as a nation really want Democracy. I really believe that Democracy would offer us more victory options should our conquest/domination efforts fall short. I also think that entering Democracy would ensure that we never have a scientific emergency like this again.

That said, I really think we should make a play for Universal Suffrage.

BTW, the switching of science to 100% is if we get the 206gpt deal, but that's a topic for another thread.

I feel this post in bias. As the President, I believe CT should have made the first post completely unbiased. This is clearly bias as she states that an advantage to building NU is too deny other civs that oppurtunity, but she doesn't list that under an advantage for US? Why is that? I believe it is because CT is trying to make her opinion win this poll.

I was letting the user assume that it was a choice for all choices. No hidden agendas here. ;)

I voted for, Rush the NU :).

Let's sign the MPP, take science at 100%, have med. in 10 turns and then rush the Universal Suffrage. It will make our wars with everybody else easier (have you ever tried to destroy a democracy as developped as Greece with the US?).

Originally posted by Chieftess
I was letting the user assume that it was a choice for all choices. No hidden agendas here. ;)

Can you explain the discrepancy then?

I have voted for the formation of an Army, for the reasons I have set out in the corresponding discussion thread. We need superior military strength now, not "cake tomorrow, maybe, if someone else doesn't eat it first..." :crazyeye: :hammer:

The Other con we should have added to the US, it that it is a Militristic trait and can cause a GA.

So, Greece will give up 206gpt but they won't give up Steam Power? That seems strange. All in all, the gold would be better anyway.

However, if that is the case, then it makes my scenario all the more workable without as much scrambling on our part to make it happen. With this deal, we can still get Medicine in 10 turns and trade for Steam Power and Industrialization.

We can then rush Universal Suffrage, and seriously consider entering Democracy. I don't think we could even consider entering this advanced form of government without it.

DZ...

I agree with you up to a point. We should make the deal with Greece, then begin researching our way to Industrialization.

However, we should use Horsa to rush Newton's University and attempt to promote another great leader with the plethora of elite units still wandering the front lines. We could end up getting both Newton's University and Universal Suffrage this way.

I just can't see us waiting twenty turns or more to use Horsa, knowing that during all of that time, there will be no chance to generate another Great Leader.

But Forty, our war with Babylon is winding down and we will not see much action in our war against Persia. Therefore we shouldn't have many opportunities for GLs anyway.

Besides, you said yourself that you were on the fence about going into Democracy. Losing a chance at Universal Suffrage would pretty much close the door on any chance we would have to enter that government. And as stingy as the Historic Epic has been this game, I'm not sure if I want to take the risk of waiting.

Universal Suffrage is the deal-breaker. If anyone has even the slightest hope of our entering Democracy, we cannot pass up this opportunity. And I truly believe that Democracy gives us our only hope of staying competitive in the tech race, so that we don't have to scramble like this the next time.

One last thing. With the 200gpt deal, we could set the science slider up to 100% and get Medicine in 10 turns, not 20. After that, we should hopefully be able to broker a deal with someone to get the two techs we need for US.

To me, this is less risky then sending Horsa to Kyoto for Newton's with the hopes that Greece doesn't just edge us out, losing Horsa for us altogether.

I'm going to concur with Donovan here. I don't want to be some backwards monarchy forever. We aren't no Russia! ;)

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
But Forty, our war with Babylon is winding down and we will not see much action in our war against Persia. Therefore we shouldn't have many opportunities for GLs anyway.

Besides, you said yourself that you were on the fence about going into Democracy. Losing a chance at Universal Suffrage would pretty much close the door on any chance we would have to enter that government. And as stingy as the Historic Epic has been this game, I'm not sure if I want to take the risk of waiting.

Universal Suffrage is the deal-breaker. If anyone has even the slightest hope of our entering Democracy, we cannot pass up this opportunity. And I truly believe that Democracy gives us our only hope of staying competitive in the tech race, so that we don't have to scramble like this the next time.
Read the results of your own poll, DZ - the people of Fanatika democratically voted to never move to an in-game Democracy.

Originally posted by Eklektikos

Read the results of your own poll, DZ - the people of Fanatika democratically voted to never move to an in-game Democracy.

Yes, Ek, and that poll was started before we realized we had a shot at Universal Suffrage. Many of the detractors stated war weariness as their main objection to entering Democracy, so this new infomation may tip the scales. I know that there is still an old guard bent on persuing our old Domination/Conquest goals, and we can still do that with a Democracy that enjoys Universal Suffrage. We can also open ourselves up to meet other victory conditions should those goals fall short. Keep in mind any conquering we try to undertake before we get Panzers will be costly due to the parity that exists between cavalry and Riflemen right now.

As everyone can see by now, entering Democracy is a "thing of value" to me and I am "willing to submit to whatever degradation and abuse is required to preserve (our chances for it). Anything less betrays a lack of commitment." :D

Please join me in this fight, Eklektikos. It will still give us a shot at our Domination goals, but will open our eyes to so much more.

I still think there's 1 major thing everyone is forgetting. It's the fact that wonders with our civ attribute can trigger a Golden Age. US is militaristic, Theory is Scientific. Do we really want a GA that "early"?

I think the extra money from the Greeks paired with a Golden Age right now would be any Domestic Leader's dream. :) I don't think it would hurt us to have it now, even though later would be better.

Plus, Newton's is scientific as well, is it not?

Yes, it's scientific.

(Just imaging that GA in a Democracy. ;) Maybe 600... 700gpt?).

CT, if you have visions of Democracy, why would you not want Universal Suffrage? It is the only way we could possibly convince our citizens to get to that point.

I'm just saying if - but with domination as our goal, that's gonna be a ton of war wariness.

Which can be lessened by Universal Suffrage. Plus Democracy opens us up to other victory options should those domination goals fall short. Wouldn't it be nice to have more ways to win, just in case?

Plus, if we make measured advances on our future enemies, we can make peace with them before war weariness gets out of hand. If we are powerful enough, we won't have to sign ourselves up for a 20-turn war each time.

I agree with DZ. And with the new deals with the Greece we can get Steam Power, and possibly Medicine in a not to long time. Then we can trade Medicine for Industrialisation and rush US. And then go to ToE.

Even if we keep the Babylonian war alive I'm sure our chances of another are great. I did a quick check of our elite units and we have 4 near the front. Two are knights and 2 are swordsmen. There's also a wounded elite knight near Larsa. Other than that our elite units are a pike in Grandmastoria, a wounded cavalry in Karachi, 2 knights and a cavalry in Bangalore and 2 cavlary in Delhi. These are far from the Babylonian front. This combined with the MPP deal Greece is offering leads me to lean towards trying to get US using Horsa. Rushing US seems the best way of stopping cascades to ToE and the ToE/Hoover combo would work wonders for Fanatika no matter what government we are in.

As for the golden age it wouldn't hurt to have one now. We do not have enough markets or banks to make effective use of democracy yet. A GA now could help us to build those improvements.

Please see DFZ issue #44. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=765655#post765655)