QSC-C2e - Hannabaline & the 300 Spartans - Emperor [Archive]

Borealis

Feb 11, 2003, 07:24 PM

Turns 1-30

4000 BC (1) Although it means founding on a bonus grass tile, moving the worker reveals cattle and enough productive land to grow on. Getting a better start will help neoCarthage more than saving one bonus tile for later. Yay! Founding on the starting spot reveals Ivory in the future size 2 cultural radius. Research to 100% on Pottery, due in 13 turns; we'll need a Granary to help this city with only one food bonus grow. Carthage starts a warrior for exploration.

As this QSC is made to test for the GOTM, I look at the Space Race screen, as many players do, to see who my opponents are. The Aztecs, Iroquois, Greeks, Germans, Chinese, Americans, and Persians oppose us, providing a fairly even mix of civilization traits and UUs.

3950 BC (2) Worker starts mining bonus grass directly SE of Carthage.

3900 BC (3)

3850 BC (4)

3800 BC (5) Worker starts road in mined bonus grass tile.
3750 BC (6) Carthage builds a warrior, and starts another one, due in four turns. Warrior #1 starts heading in a vaguely western direction as the minimap shows us to the far east.

3700 BC (7) Worker moves across the river to the cattle. Irrigating this will help growth, which is more critical right now than saving a few gpt for research that will have to be spent on luxuries when Carthage grows.

3650 BC (8) A three-warrior American SoD approaches from the south. Abe is Annoyed, and lacks Alphabet. He has Bronze Working in addition to his base techs. I'll probably wait to trade and see if there's anyone else around.

(IT): American warrior SoD turns around, letting me know that I am playing a computer AI and not a human, who would use it to attack my poorly-defended city. Starting on emperor almost always requires a low-defense gambit of some kind in the very early game, unless you do a barracks-archer militaristic start ala Charis in QSC-c1.

3600 BC (9) Furs are revealed in the fog of war SE of Carthage.

3550 BC (10) Carthage builds warrior; starts worker. Having an extra worker early on will help city production and capitalize on the Industrious trait. This warrior starts heading NE away from America while the one warrior seeks to locate Abe.

***********save

(IT): We discover Pottery, and I start 40-turn research on Writing.

3500 BC (11) Argh. The computer gave me a clown as Carthage grows to size 2; instead, I up lux tax to 10% (rivers are wonderful), and reassign the worker to a productive tile.

3450 BC (12) A Jaguar warrior approaches Carthage from the east. Montezuma knows Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, but lacks Masonry, Alphabet, and Pottery! He obviously doesn't know Abe yet, but the American warrior will probably discover him next turn. We trade Masonry + Pottery + 12 gold + 1gpt for Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, neither of which Abe knows. The American workers start on the process of building a road and irrigation to the elephant grazing fields nearby.

Abe has two workers, 1 gold, and Bronze Working, which I trade him Alphabet + Ceremonial Burial for. He probably won't sell Alphabet to Monty for several turns yet, I hope, and if it's sold I don't lose much- getting two extra workers this early will give my civ a huge production boost. In PTW, this opportunity wouldn't happen- I'd only get one worker for this deal, or two for all my tech, forcing me to pay Abe Warrior Code as well. The foreign advisor grumbles about 'seed corn,' but fails to raise strong objections after being guaranteed good behavior in the next RBE epic.

3400 BC (13) Carthage builds a worker and starts a warrior. Worker #2 moves to the forest, which it will chop down once Carthage starts its granary.

3350 BC (14)

3300 BC (15)

3250 BC (16) I drop my keys on the keyboard accidentally while getting up to grab the phone and am forced to reload from autosave as my worker goes a fun direction. :blush:
Lux tax to 10% as Carthage is size two. Warrior in the SW reveals blue American borders.

3200 BC (17) Carthage builds warrior for MP and defense; starts a granary. A purple scout is revealed in the fog of war near Aztec cultural boundaries. The Iroquois lack Masonry and Alphabet, and have 10 gold¡K I made a good call in selling Ceremonial Burial to Abe rather than Warrior Code. Abe and Monty will know each other within 3 turns or so.

3150 BC (18) American workers complete road to Ivory and lux tax is eliminated in celebration. Warrior near American capital reveals incense in the hills nearby.

3100 BC (19) Worker harvests forest and starts mine as the forest hid a bonus grass. The other worker continues mining bonus grass, and American workers keep irrigating to the ivory.

3050 BC (20) Contact with Jerxes near American capital, via a spearman. He has 10 gold, no luxuries currently hooked up, and no extra cities. He lacks Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. Monty has a barbarian worker on offer and I buy it for 16 gold and 1 gpt.

(IT): The foreign advisor brings tales of the demise of a faraway civilization, known as the Chinese.

***********save

3000 BC (21)

(IT): Lord McCauley completes his history of the Largest Nations of the World:
1. Germany
2. Iroquois
3. Greeks
4. Aztecs
5. Persians
6. Americans
7. Carthage

2950 BC (22) Diplo check reveals that the historian was right in his civ size estimate, as the civs we know all have another city except America. Foreign workers start moving to build a road to the next city site.

2900 BC (23)

2850 BC (24)

2800 BC (25) Furs revealed around Niagra Falls, the Iroquois' first city. We have three AI civs right next to us, hardly a promising start. Once we get a few cities, war seems the best option.

2750 BC (26) Carthage grows to size 4, and builds a granary. Production on a Spartan Hoplite started, and MM for shields. Lux tax to 10%.

2710 BC (27) Evidently the AI popped some huts, as Monty and Abe both have The Wheel and Mysticism. No one else has them, and X-man lacks Alphabet and Burial. Our warrior sees spices near New York, but will be asked to leave soon.

2670 BC (28)

2630 BC (29) A roaming barbarian appears to the north of Carthage.

2590 BC (30) Carthage builds a Spartan Hoplite, and starts a settler. The settler is due in 4, with growth in 6, but will be MMed to build when Carthage grows. The worker stack sees a barbarian camp, and runs away for now- that barb camp will be dispersed when the new city is founded. Lux tax dropped as Carthage likes the MP.

Saves:

3550 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC_C2e_bc3550.sav)

3050 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC_C2e_bc3050.sav)

2590 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC_C2e_bc2590.sav)

In retrospect, with all the foreign workers, I didn't need the extra worker early on, but as I didn't know I'd get those buying opportunities, the decision was still good. Carthage is well set-up for growth, and the new city to come will be improved extremely quickly. After my first set of worker decisions, I stopped logging them, but the pattern was- within city radius first, then growth, then production, then start improving in direction of next city as settler time approaches.

A screenshot of 2590 BC will be in the next post to avoid horizontal text scrolling.

[Edit: Copy/pasting from Word brought up some funny characters in place of apostrophes. This is odd; I've never had this problem before.]

Borealis

Feb 11, 2003, 07:28 PM

The neoCarthage 'empire' under Borealis at 2590 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC-C2e_2590BC.JPG

hotrod0823

Feb 11, 2003, 07:53 PM

4000 BC (1): With Desert and Mountains around this looks like a tough starting spot. Decide to move the worker to the bonus grass before settling. I see a cattle and what looks to be coastline. Add in the flood plains then the start is not too too bad and I settle. Carthage is founded and there are ivory to the NW :), start a warrior. Begin research on Pottery at 100%. Due in 13 turns.

3950 BC (2): Start mines.

3900 BC (3): Still mining. The citizen is working the bonus grass that I am mining.

3850 BC (4): More of the same.

3800 BC (5): mines complete start roads.

3750 BC (6): Warrior is complete start another. Send warrior to the West and see more ivory.

3700 BC (7): Worker completes the road and goes to start irrigating the cattle. It is not within the boundries yet but will be by the time the city needs it. The warrior is heading NW and sees more ivory and we can now see the coastline.

3650 BC (8): More exploring to the N.

3600 BC (9): It continues.

3550 BC (10): Warrior completed start settler. The warrior could be fortified for MP Duty. But may be used later to explore to the SouthWest.

Here is the first save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_BC3550.zip

3500 BC (11): Hmmm. Learn Pottery but I thought there was 2 more turns left. Just got contacted but I don't know who the civ is yet. Will start Writing and bee line for the GL. Dial up Abe and he has Bronze working but wants my Alphabet and 4 gold. NO deals Abe.

3450 BC (12): Contact Made with the Aztecs. They have Warrior code and CB, and lack Masonry, Alph, and pottery. Lets make a deal. Trade Monty, Alphabet, and Masonry for WC and CB and 10
gold. NOw this may be weed but I would rather take the gold from abe than have Monty get it so here is the deal, I get 2 worker, Bronze and 26 gold. Abe gets, Alphabet, WC and CB.

3400 BC (13): May new "indentured servants" work the flood plain and will road to get the ivory online. MM Carthage over the next few turns to balance food and shield to get the settler same
turn as growth.

3350 BC (14): More exploring. MM to get settler in 4 growth in 4.

3300 BC (15): Begin bringing the warrior south to see a bit close to home.

3250 BC (16): See jungle Due West of Carthage.

3200 BC (17): A settler is due next next turn. Roading to the ivory continues.

3150 BC (18): The settler grabs the warrior and heads north. Carthage starts warrior.

3100 BC (19): The settler/warrior pair continues north. The exploring warrior continues south.

3050 BC (20): The ivory is online, warrior/settler almost to city 2 spot. Buy Monty's worker for 34 gold.

Here is the second Save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_BC3050.zip

3000 BC (21): Spot furs to the South West, Settler has arrived at city number 2.

2950 BC (22): Aztecs found a city right near my first choice for city number 2, decide to move the settler again.

2900 BC (23): Carthage builds warrior starts settler. Found the town of Utica NE of Carthage. Start a barracks.

2850 BC (24): Some workers start mines around carthage, another is moving Norht toward Utica.

2800 BC (25): zzzzz

2750 BC (26): Spot some inland lake to the SW. MM of Carthage the next few turns to get the settler and growth the same.

2710 BC (27): Spot the American boarder to the direct south.

2670 BC (28): Iroquios approach from the East, they lack Alphabet and Masonry but have no gold to speak of. No Trades. Abe met someone, he now has the Wheel and Iron Working. So does Monty, did they trade or was it from someone else :hmm:.

2630 BC (29): Begin lumberclearing by Utica. Settler is due next turn.

2590 BC (30): Carthage builds settler. Takes warrior and heads toward the furs. Carthage starts granary, with wood clearing already started want to use the shields for infrastructure.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_BC2590.zip

Couple of things: Carthage is a good settler producer even without the granary. Worker buys are easier in 1.29 vs. PTW. I have 3 slaves and 1 native worker. It turns out the 1 I bought from Monty was a barb. I also hope researching Writing pays off, I am 10 turns away and already behind the wheel and IW.

meldor

Feb 11, 2003, 09:40 PM

4000 BC
After much thought I decide to waste the first worker turn to see if we can get a better position. I have two choices, the hill due east and the hill due west. I opt to move away from the desert and on to the hill due east. This reveals that a city on top of the hill will have 6 BG tiles, one of which has a cow on it. Unfortunately, when the city expands, it will waste 3 coastal tiles. This wastage is deemed worthy of the move as it won't come into effect until after hospitals. We move the settler on top of the hill.

3950 BC
We found Carthage and start a warrior. The worker moves to irrigate the cow. We start science on warrior code at max, due in 13.

3900-3850 BC
Since the extra food will allow growth sooner, I irrigate first.

3800-3750 BC
We road the cow. The warrior completes and we start a second one.

3700 BC
The warrior heads for the mountains due west. The worker goes one square NW to start the first BG.

3650 BC
I start mining, making sure the citizen is working the same tile as the worker. The new growth shaves two turns off the warrior. W1 moves on top of the hill and spots Ivory to the west. Set taxes to 0.9.1 to avoid rioting.

3600 BC
Spot a Jag of Monties. We trade Alphabet for CB, WC and 10g. We start pottery due in 10.

3550 BC
W1 follows the mountain chain WNW.

Meldor 3550 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc2550.sav)

3500 BC
Warrior 2 completes and we start a third. W2 head due north on top of the hill. Worker begins road.

3450-3400 BC
More exploring. Taxes taken to 0.8.2 to handle third citizen.

3350 BC
Complete third warrior, start barracks as granary pre-build. Warrior MP allows taxes at 2.7.1 and still get pottery in 4. Find Zulu border Nw.

3300-3250 BC
More exploring. Meet the Iroquois. Trade Alphabet for BW and 7g. No deal on masonry though.
We get pottery and start on IW at 0.9.1.

3200-3100 BC
Complete work on second BG, start road to new city site. Spot furs in the north. Work forest to get granary in 4. Taxes moved to 0.8.2 Meet American Scout, trade CB for two workers. Two new workers move to work first flood plains.

3050 BC
I try to buy a Zulu worker but my 28g isn't enough!

Meldor 3050 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc3050.sav)

2900 BC
Granary built and settler started.

2750 BC
Tax to 0.7.3 for one turn.

2700 BC
Finish settler and start another.

2630 BC
We build Utica which brings Ivory online and it begins a warrior.

2590 BC
Second settler due in 1. It also seems as though the Aztecs have spices....hmmmmwho is first?

Meldor 2590 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc2590.sav)

Justus II

Feb 12, 2003, 01:24 PM

Pre-Game Strategy: I didn’t want to go into this one with too many preconceived notions, I wanted to adapt to the situation. Knowing it was at Emperor, I knew I would have to expand quick, and especially after seeing the starting position, decided that I would make Carthage a settler factory, building a granary. I actually opened the game, looked at the starting position, and since there was no compelling reason to move off the original location, built Carthage to see more of the surrounding area and develop strategy. Once I saw the cattle, I knew I could make a good settler factory, and then see what develops from there.

First Set of 10 turns
4000 Carthage founded at initial location, production set to warrior to explore. I move my worker to the grass-bonus to the SE to start mining. Since we are industrious, I figured I would be able to get that tile AND the cattle developed by the time my culture and pop expanded on turn 11. I set research to pottery, since I would need a granary, which at 100% science said it would take 13 turns.
3950 Worker starts to mine the bonus.
3900 Nothing happens!
3850 Nothing happens!
3800 Mine is done, start on road.
3750 First Warrior completed, start on second. Warrior1 climbs hill to W, sees more ivory in the distance.
3700 W1 climbs mountain to NW, sees more ivory, more flood plains! Worker finishes road, moves SE to cattle.
3650 W1 moves N along hill, just sees plains. Worker starts irrigating cattle.
3600 W1 moves NW along mountain, more flood plains.
3550 Second warrior done, start on third. W1-N, sees gold in mountain, W2-S toward jungle.
The cattle is irrigated, I start on the road.
* End of first ten turns: I have a worker, 2 warriors, Carthage will grow next turn. Pottery is now 2 turns away. Per the F10 screen, the other civs are Aztecs, Iroquois, Greeks, Germans, China, America, and Persia. Not a real friendly bunch. My score is 50 points.

Save Game 3550bc (http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_BC3550.zip)
Here is my early map, showing exploration up to 3550.
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_bc3550.jpg

swiftsure

Feb 12, 2003, 01:32 PM

4000bc move the worker one tile se onto second bonus grassland, if no better place to settle is found then we can mine the bg next turn. worker sees cattle so we move settler one tile s.

3950bc carthage founded and warrior started, bg begins to be mined rather than move onto cattle and irrigate. sci set to 100% and set at pottery.

3900bc-3750bc not alot

3700bc warrior completed and another ordered,warrior moves onto mountain and spots 3 american warriors. trade alphabet to abe for pottery and 10gp.start writing at min research

3650bc warrior moves back into carthage

3600bc lux set to 10%,sci to 10% and tax to 80%,warrior moves north from carthage scouting.

3550bc warrior built and fortifies for mp,granary started

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SWIFTSURE-QSC-C2E-3550BC.SAV

3500bc warrior continues scouting. jag warrior whizz's past with no contact

3450bc-3400bc warrior continues scouting

3350bc contact with aztecs,trade alphabet/pottery and 48gp to aztecs for ceremonial burial and bronze working

3300bc scouting

3250 trade 3gpt and 4gp to aztecs for warrior code

3200bc-3100bc continued scouting.

3050bc iroquois contacted they are behind in techs

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SWIFTSURE-QSC-C2E-3050BC.SAV

3000bc granary built and settler started.lux set to 20% as carthage at size 4

2950bc-2850bc scouting

2800bc settler built amd moves nw towards ivory.another settler ordered.

2750bc-2710bc warrior scouting

2670bc utica built connecting ivory to carthage. trade 3gpt and 18gp to america for mysticism

2630bc-

2590bc settler built and another ordered.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SWIFTSURE-QSC-C2E-2590BC.SAV

Justus II

Feb 12, 2003, 01:35 PM

Second Set of 10 turns
3500 A lot happened this turn! Carthage grows in population (2) and size (culture expands). I assign the 2nd laborer to the cattle, of course. Between turns, an American warrior came into view to the S. This must have triggered the reduction in the cost of Pottery, because it is completed a turn early. Lincoln is cautious, has 1 gold and Bronze Working. After haggling, he gives me Bronze Working and the 1 gold for Alphabet. Checking the score, he has 59 points to my 57. I set my research on Mathmatics (AI is slow to research this, I should be able to sell/trade it for something) and reduce research to 10% (would have been 40 turns regardless). I also raise luxuries to 10%, so my tax rate is now 8.1.1 to account for the second citizen. W1-W, W2 moves SW along a hill, sees what could be a lake or coast.
3450 An Aztec Jaguar Warrior moved into view between turns, NE of Carthage. I explore before contacting him, W1-W onto mountain, sees American scout, some coast? W2-SW, sees a definite 1-tile lake. Now I contact Montezuma, he is Polite?!?, has no gold but does have Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, which he trades me for Masonry and Alphabet. I then check with Lincoln to see if he has anything to offer, and to my surprise, has 2 workers! I trade WarCode and CerBurial for the two workers, and 25gold. The cattle is roaded, so my worker moves NE to the next grass-bonus. I send one of my new slaves to join him, and the other moves NE to the flood plain.
3400 Carthage completes warrior3, starts on granary. W1-N in mountains, W2-SW and sees fur, W3-N. Worker1 and Slave1 together start to mine the bonus grass, Slave2 starts road through the flood plain.
3350 W1-N, W2-S, sees more mountains, W3-N to mountain, sees river continuing north, plains and grasslands.
3300 W1-N sees Aztec border, W2-S, W3-N. Mine is done on bonus, start road with both Work1 and Slave1, done same turn (I love industrious!).
3250 W1-NE, sees Iroquois scout, Aztec worker in some spices. (No wonder I haven’t found any huts!). S2-S on mountain, see American border, Incense. W3-N, see small lake. I contact Hiawatha, who is cautious, has 10 gold but no techs. I give him Masonry for 10g, he is now polite. Quick check of scores: Amer. 79, Iroq. 77, Aztec 77, Carthage 77. Work/Slave combo moves N to next Grass-Bonus, Slave2 finishes road, moves to ivory. Carthage’s population grew to 3, so I up luxuries to 20% (7.1.2), still making +6 gpt.
3200 W1-N, W2-Se, W3-NE, nothing new to report. W/S starts mining, S2 starts road on Ivory.
3150 A Persian spearman appears in the SE (looked like an American, not sure how it came from that direction). Xerxes is Annoyed, has 3 gold but no techs. I give him Ceremonial Burial for the 3g, he is still annoyed. Looking at scores, he is way behind (74 vs. 83-81 for others). W1-W, W2-W, sees Washington, W3-E, sees furs in north, more coast.
3100 W1-NW, W2-W more coast, W3-NW. Bonus is mined, W1/S1 builds road.
3050 W1-NW-mountain, more furs, W2-NW, W3-NW. W/S combo moves W, S2 finished road, connecting Ivory, moves SE to irrigate flood plain. I adjust luxuries back down to 10%. Time to check out diplomacy again, America is Cautious, has 41g, 86 pts. Aztecs are polite, 0g, 84 points, but have a worker to sell! I buy it for 2gpt, and send it NE to FP to help S2 with irrigation. Iroqoius are cautious, 0g, 84 pts. Persia is annoyed, 0g, 76 pts.
** End of second ten turns: I now have a worker plus 3 slaves (the one from the Aztecs is listed as a barbarian?), and 3 warriors. Carthage is at population 3, and will hit 4 next turn. The granary will be done in 4 turns (3 with the growth). Mathematics is 31 turns away, but I have all first tier techs but wheel. I have 108g +5gpt, and my score is 86 (tied with America).

Save Game 3050bc (http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_BC3050.sav)
Here is the Realm of Carthage, as of 3050.
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_3050.jpg

Justus II

Feb 12, 2003, 01:40 PM

3000 I see another Iroq. scout to the W, Aztec JW to NW. They are crawling all over, I haven’t seen a hut yet, they must have gotten them all. W1-W, W2-NW, W2-W, nothing interesting. W1/S1 builds a road in the desert tile, to make it quicker for settlers to move N or NE. Population is now 4, so I up luxuries to 20% again. Herodotus publishes his list of The Most Advanced Civilizations: China, America, Aztec, Carthage, Germany, Persians, Iroquois, Greeks. I check, and America and Aztec have no new tech, so we must all be tied with or right behind China.
2950 W1-W sees Iroquois border. W2-W more coast, W3-W. W1/S1 moves W,NW,N along road to second ivory. S2/S3 finishes irrigating the Flood Plain, moves NW and starts to irrigate the first ivory.
2900 Carthage completes the Granary, starts on a settler, which will take 4 turns. W1-W, W2-N, W3-E nothing interesting. W1/S1 build road on ivory, S2/S3 starts road through forest. Aztec builds Teotihuacan on the small lake to the NW of Carthage.
2850 W1-N sees Iroquois founded Niagra Falls, W2-N, W3-E. W1/S1 moves NE. S2/S3 moves W to forest.
2750 W1-N, more coast, W2-N, W3-SE. W1/S1 moves E on hill. Carthage hits population 5, up luxuries to 30%.
2710 Carthage produces Settler #1, starts on a warrior to get production and population back in synch. Settler moves NW,NW,N along the road. With Carthage now at pop.3, I slide luxuries back down to 10%. W1-NE, W2-NE, W3-E, nothing special. W1/S1 moves NE to plains.
2670 W1-E, W2-S, W3-SE, following hills/mountains on coast. Settler moves NE, NE to new site. S1/S1 starts to irrigate plains for the new city, S2/S3 completes road in the forest, moves NW to flood plains. Luxuries back up to 20% as Carthage grows back to 4, only making 3gpt since settler is over free unit limit.
2630 Carthage completes warrior, starts settler again, done in 5 turns (will be 4 with growth). Settler founds Utica, 3 N of Carthage, which starts on a warrior. W1-E, W2-W, W3-SE, W4- NE,E,E using road. S2/S3 start irrigating flood plains.
2590 W1-NE, W2-NW, W3-SE along mountains, S2-N on hill, sees open grassland. W1/S1 finished the irrigation, builds road on plain. Cartahge grew to pop.5, so I increase luxuries to 30%, but now with Utica contributing I am at +6gpt. A quick check of diplomacy reveals that most of the other civs have the Wheel. Since I didn’t give the Iroquois Alphabet earlier, I go there first, and they sell me The Wheel for Alpha and 1gpt. I see horses to the SW, next to my planned city #2, and to the NE.
*** End of third ten turns: I have a worker plus 3 slaves, and 4 warriors. Carthage is at population 5, will finish a settler in 3 turns, and is now on a sustaining cycle of 1 settler every four turns, with no interruptions. Utica will grow in 9 turns, finish another warrior in 4. I have all first level techs, and Mathematics is 21 turns away. I have 151 gold, +5gpt Looking at the other civs, the Aztecs now have the lead with 111 pts, 14g, 2 cities, still polite. Iroquois are cautious, 0g, 2 cities, and 108 points. America is also cautious, 41g, 2 cities, 107 pts. Persia is annoyed, has 6g and 2 cities, and 101 pts. The delay in getting my second city may have set me back slightly in score, I am also at 101 pts, but by the power chart it has evened up. No one has generated any extra culture yet. I am listed as #1 in population, GNP, and production.

Save Game 2590BC (http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_BC2590.sav)

My updated map, as of 2590BC
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_bc2590.jpg

Probably the biggest surprise was the workers, I rarely get one early, much less three. I actually almost felt guilty buying both from America, in fact I stopped to double check the list of exploits for GOTM, I thought I had read something about that before, but I think that was just the rules for a specific SG or something. 3 extra captive workers was a big swing, especially since at the same time I set America back by the same amount, but I guess that it is no more unbalancing than a free settler from a hut. That was my second surprise, even with 3 warriors out exploring I never saw a single hut, but surrounded by two expansionist civs (and the Aztecs, the jags move like scouts), I guess I have to accept that. They were everywhere. It even threw off some of my assumptions, seeing the Aztecs and Americans coming from the NE and SE respectively, I thought there might be more land that way than there really was. I was glad to get the settler factory set up. The extra workers might have saved me a turn on the granary, but they have been a big help in setting up my future city sites. I’ve realized now though that it is somewhat wasteful to pair them up like they are, I am used to doing it with captured workers, but since I am industrious, they are as fast as a normal worker, and could accomplish more in the long run separately. Still not sure what direction this game will take, I intend to stay peaceful and fill in as much territory as I can for now, the Spartan Hoplite will make a great defender but kind of expensive for the offensive.

EDIT: Well, after reading some of the other posts, it looks like I was not alone in getting the workers, just something I am not used to getting that early, especially 2 at a time. (I typed up my comments before looking at anyone else's posts, so I wouldn't bias myself). Should be interesting!!!

ControlFreak

Feb 13, 2003, 07:10 AM

Just lurking by and saw JustusII comment about buying workers.

Cracker, how will the cost of workers effect the PTW vs 1.29 games? Is there a way to adjust how much value the AI gives a worker?

Cartouche Bee

Feb 13, 2003, 07:41 AM

Wow, I've played alot of SP Emperor games and I can't remember ever being able to research the first tech in only 13 turns. Start didn't look all that good but I guess looks are deceiving. Have fun.

Arizona_Steve

Feb 13, 2003, 09:23 AM

In the interests of isolating my game from any external influences, I played out to turn 95 before submitting this and looking at the thread. I'm at work right now, and don't have time to put up any screenshots - I'll try to do so in the future...

(1) 4000BC
I note that we have started on a bonus grassland tile. Our worker is set to work mining it.
I move the settler across the river to settle on the forest square next turn.

(2) 3950BC
Carthage is founded. A warrior is started. I make sure that the citizen is working the bonus grassland that is being mined by our worker.
I hit F6 to begin research immediately on pottery - due in 13 turns @ 100%.

(3) 3900BC
(4) 3850BC
Worker completes mine, starts road.

(5) 3800BC
Carthage competes warrior, starts another.

(6) 3750BC
Worker completes road, moves to adjacent bonus grassland tile.
Warrior is sent out to hike the local mountains.

(7) 3700BC
Worker begins to mine the other bonus grassland.

(8) 3650BC
We make contact with a trio of American warriors. Their leader is annoyed with us, and has Pottery. We have Alphabet. No trade is made, we will discover Pottery ourselves in 4 turns, and Alphabet is worth way more.
Furs are sighted within easy reach of our capital. A high priority site.

(9) 3600BC
Carthage trains a second warrior, a third is ordered.

(10) 3550BC
The second warrior is fortified in Carthage - he will quell any riots when the city grows to size 2 in 2 turns.
Our worker has mined the second bonus grassland, he starts a road.

Arizona_Steve - 3550BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_BC3550.zip)

(11) 3500BC
I drop science to 50%, and net a couple of gold in addition to Pottery.
Pottery comes in, I start The Wheel @ 100% - due in 20 turns.
Carthage borders expand, allowing the possibility of hooking up the ivory.

(12) 3450BC
I decide to leave the cow alone for the time being and irrigate the flood plain en route to hooking up the ivory.
Carthage grows to 2, I make sure both mined grasslands are in use.
Carthage completes a warrior, starts settler.

(13) 3400BC
I contact an Aztec Jaguar Warrior that is passing by. Montezuma is polite, and has Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. We have Alphabet and Pottery available to trade. A worker is also available for sale.
I trade Alphabet in exchange for Ceremonial Burial and a Worker (I'm assuming there are no special rules about buying workers from another civ - am I exploiting the system here?).
I then call up Lincoln and trade Alphabet in exchange for Bronze Working + 5 gold (if I don't do this now, you can be sure that Montezuma will if they've met the Americans).
I send our newly acquired worker to irrigate the cow.

(14) 3350BC
(15) 3300BC
Our native worker irrigates the floodplains and starts a road.

(16) 3250BC
(17) 3200BC
Our native worker completes the road on the floodplains and moves onto the ivory.
I switch a citizen from a mined bonus grassland to the irrigated floodplain to pop the settler exactly when Carthage reaches size 3.

(18) 3150BC
(19) 3100BC
Our slave irrigates the cow and starts a road.

(20) 3050BC
Our ivory is online, and this will allow me to oscillate Carthage between sizes 2 and 4 to pop out more settlers.
I send the native worker back to begin roading towards the furs.

Arizona_Steve - 3050BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_BC3050.zip)

Catharge completes it's settler and begins a warrior.

(21) 3000BC
I take the settler and the defending warrior in Carthage and move towards the furs. A new warrior is due in 4 turns.
We contact a Persian spearman, and talk to X-man. X-man is annoyed of course. I trade Alphabet to him in exchange for Warrior code and 10 gold.

(22) 2950BC
The Aztecs plop down a city almost on top of my exploring warrior, then have the nerve to tell me to get out. For now, I comply.

(23) 2900BC
I've improved the land around the capital as much as I want to for now, so both workers are gainfully employed building a road network to send future settlers down.
We contact a cautious Hiawatha of the Iroquois. We are ahead of them by Alphabet.

(24) 2850BC
(25) 2800BC
Carthage regains it's warrior defender, and starts a granary.
Ultica is founded next to the furs. It starts a barracks.

(26) 2750BC
(27) 2710BC
I drop science to 10% and get The Wheel this turn + 5 gold. Iron working started, science reduced to 10%, as with 4 civilizations known, it is cheaper to buy than to research.

(28) 2670BC
We have a horse in range of Ultica after it's borders expand.

(29) 2630BC
(30) 2590BC
America and the Aztecs both have Mysticism. Persia is equal to us in tech and the Iroquois are behind by The Wheel and Alphabet. I keep a look-out for brokering opportunities.

Arizona_Steve - 2590BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_BC2590.zip)

Karasu

Feb 13, 2003, 02:12 PM

WARNING: This is my first Succession Game, and all my past attempts at keeping detailed timelines for the QSC resulted in incredibly poor play until 1000 BC...

This is my timeline for the first 30 turns (a bit rushed, as I was supposed to pay attention to the progress meeting... :hmm: )

4000 BC
To found or not to found? I have desert neearby and I am sitting on a grassland + shield... I think I will wast a turn of the worker to give a look at the landscape from that hill to the E: Worker 1E.

Ok. A cow, and the sea. I think I can spend 1 turn going 1S with the Settler and found Carthage (I guess) on the second turn. Reaching the coast and founding on the third seems too much... Settler 1S

3950 BC
Founded Carthage, build Warrior (have to, otherwise I would have nothing to move while the Worker is working... ;) )
W goes 1S to road the cow.
Seeing the starting position, I think the second city will go in the forest 1E3NE of Carthage. The worker will road and irrigate the cow, Carthage will become a settler factory, and the new city will build some military to start with.

Ah, research. I would go for Monarchy at 20% science, but given the starting techs I think I'll start with Writing (good for trading) and try to follow the path to Monarchy as soon as I have got some first/second level techs through trading. This leaves me with the possibility to go for Republic if I change my mind within 40 turns...
Thinking about it, it is good that the first checkpoint is only after 30 turns, so I can check what the better players are doing in this area... :mischief:

3800 BC
The Worker finished his road. Starts irrigating the Cow. Oops! I moved it, will have to reload. Irrigating will take two turns, same as when I finish the Warrior.

3700 BC
Warrior and Irrigation are ready.
I have now a fast-growing city. I may not even need a Granary, shields may not allow settlers to be produced fast enough. I need a productive city very soon.

Warrior goes 1W, on top of the mountain.

Ouch! THREE 3/3 American Warriors! I may need to switch production to another warrior pretty soon. Lincoln is contacted: he only has Pottery, and I am not going to trade him Alphabet for Pottery + 10 gold. Let's wait for him to have something more to offer...

The worker goes to the tile 1N of Carthage to build a road and a mine there. The road will eventually be used to connect the Ivory which I have just seen (and would have gotten had I founded Carthage in the starting position).

3650 BC
My warrior is on top of the mountain. Should Abe decide to attack me, I had better stay here. But I am leaving Carthage undefended, and he might climb the hill to go for the big prize. However, if I fortify inside Carthage, he might be able to attack it from the mountain, and 3 against 1 would give me very slim chances to survive. I will stay here and wish he is not going to hit me... (He was Annoyed when we first met and I didn't trade with him, oh dear...). Carthage will grow in 7 turns and the Settler will be available at the same time. That, at least, sounds good!

Which means I have made a mistake with the Worker, in that I should have completed the road to the jungle first (too lazy to calculate when the Settler would come out!). I'll bring the guy back and start working on the road to the second city location: the worker looses two turns, but I will not lose one on founding the city.

Moved N instead of S, reloaded -Poor me, keeping the most detailed timeline possible is really hard on the part of my brain that controls the game...

3600 BC
Riots! Just to confirm what I am saying above, I had also forgot to set the luxury slider to 10%... Ok, I'll lose this turn on the settler and try to be more concentrated: come on, I know I can do it ;).

The good news is that the American troops are going back south (well, this could have been my shortest game ever!). I venture my Warrior 1N to see better the Ivory zone. It does not look too promising...
The worker is gone where he has to be (1E1NE off Rome... er, I meant Carthage... too much GOTM...).

3550 BC
One American warrior pops up just south of my borders. Need to hurry home... And to start building some troops myself...

Worker builds road. My riot-prone citizens are back in shape.

3500 BC
The warrior is in his capital city. The american is trying to sneak by. I am really starting to dislike these cyan guys...

Karasu

Feb 13, 2003, 02:17 PM

3450 BC
Borders expand.
Warrior fortified on the Cow; worker moved 1NE to build road

3400 BC
Worker starts road. American, as foreseeable, finding himself within my borders and within sight of an undefended city, makes a dash towards Carthage. I fortify there.

3350 BC
Playing with fire... The American passes by.

3300 BC
Road complete, building a mine for my second city.

3250 BC
Settler is complete. What next? With all these Americans, I really need another warrior. I'll use the forest to get one more shield and save one turn, returning to the cow for another settler in four turns.

3150 BC
An Aztec Elite Jaguar... This place is quite crowded!
Traded Alphabet + 37 gold for Bronze Working and Warrior Code.
Now I accept Pottery + 10 from Abe for Alphabet, but Montezuma is still asking too much for Ceremonial Burial. We'll trade again later on...

The mine is done; I will go building a road to the Ivory now.
I am also thinking of pop-rushing a barracks in Carthage...

Utica founded. Starts warrior.

3100 BC
Worker is now 1N of Carthage. Will build road.
Warrior ready in Carthage. Settler next. It would already be possible to build Spartan Hoplites, but I don't want a Golden Age NOW.

3050 BC
An american Spearman approaching from the south. I'll go meet him with Warrior#2: 1S

Karasu

Feb 13, 2003, 02:20 PM

3000 BC
An Iroquois Explorer coming from the North... Traded him Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial + 10 gold. It's really crowded, and I am starting to think that a "Spartan Hoplite rush" might well be appropriate here.

Warrior #1 goes towards Utica (there may be room for expansion there; Warrior #2 goes back to Carthage. If possible, I would like to explore north. If I find a good food-producing spot, I'll be pop-rushing two barracks and military units.

2950 BC
The situation seems relatively calm. I can risk another settler, and try to go for the Flood Plain and/or Ivory to the North.

Warrior#1 is on the hill N of Utica; Warrior # won't move too far from Carthage.

2900 BC
Utica builds warrior. Starts barracks.
The Iro explorer moves around.

Warrior #3 goes to Carthage, Warrior #1 goes North, warrior #2 goes SW; worker builds road.

2850 BC
Warrior #3 fortifies in Carthage.
Warrior #2 goes SW (mountain)
Warrior #1 goes N (hill)

2800 BC
The worker wastes a turn going 1N on the mountain (he's industrious, what the hell, I can use it for more things!). The map is clear: we are cornered and surrounded by other civs. I see green borders to the North (Aztecs, I think). If I want to have a chance, I have to expand immediately towards them, grabbing at least the river area and the Ivory. As soon as I have four - five cities there, I will start building military as fast as I can and attack everyone around me!

So, Carthage on Settlers, all other cities on barracks + military.

Warrior #2 goes 1S -I want to see where the Americans are.
Warrior #1 goes 1N, towards the Aztecs.

2750 BC
Warrior #1 goes 1NW (hill)
Warrior #2 goes 1S
worker will road and irrigate the flood plains

2710 BC
Warrior #1 1SW (hill) I want to keep him around there to protect a city next to the furs.

Warrior #2 1S (mountain). Glimpse of the American borders. They seem to have a nice location for us; I am thinking of building two forces and attack both N and S. I might want to keep the Aztecs' city (or cities) I conquer, but raze the Americans'.

Had to micromanage Carthage a bit to make the Settler come out in exactly three turns (when city grows to size 3 again).

2670 BC
Both warriors 1E. Warrior #2 will make a round trip to Carthage. Warrior #3 will go to Utica to defend it from a barbarian.

2630 BC
Warrior #3 fortified in Utica.
Warrior #2 1E, sees some coast. This map looks more planned than random-generated, I must say...

Warrior #1 follows Aztecs' border

Worker roads southernmost elephant. Will later build road towards the fur.

2590 BC
Settler done. Another one in queue. This one will go in the forest 1NE of the flood plains.

Warrior #1 1NE, warrior #2 1NE. Worker builds road.
Warrior #3 survives the barbarian and gets promoted.

I am contacted by the Persians, with whom I trade the wheel for 71 gold (no point in waiting for next turn as they already have all my technologies). But, where is he?

Ops! I played one turn too many
In 2550 BC I... ehm... "will" hurry barracks in Utica (7 turns left otherwise). Warrior #1 1SW, Warrior #2 1N, Warrior #3 is sent back to Carthage.

Histograph says:

neoCarthage 118
Aztecs 116
America 112
Iroquois 111
Persia 103

Well, in spite of my display of clumsiness in this game, I think I never managed to get top score at Emperor after so short a time...

Charis

Feb 13, 2003, 10:43 PM

With about 19mins left on the last day, I manage to finish the first 30 turns (actually, to about 60) and am ready to upload

I'll have more about my strategy, where I'm headed and why, in a later post so as not to cloud any judgements. Or it might be entertaining to try to guess, who knows :P So for now, just the timeline:

[1] -4000: Starting positon- Looks fair, not super. It's got flood plains, 2 desert, hills,
mountains, but it's on BG. If I move anywhere it will be S or SW, making the BG
next door a good first worker spot. I move him there first, maybe he'll see something.
He does - cattle and another BG. Good enough to avoid delaying settlement. Carthage founded.
On doing so we see an ivory the other direction, in range - good. Warrior. I want to
go for a second tier tech and trade for two first tiers. Writing is due in 40.
[2] -3950: Mine the BG. mms forest for one turn to get warrior out one early.
[5] -3800: Road the BG. Warrior rdy, heads due N to scout.
[6] -3750: More ivory visible, good for trading.
[7] -3700: Worker moves to cattle, sees we're near coast.
[8] -3650: Irrigate cow. Worker takes a small NE detour for the hill.
[9] -3600: A jaggie comes wizzing by from the East. Normally a pain in the rear, our
merc are a perfect answer to the green menace. Masonry and Alphabet for WC, Pottery,
Burial. Carthage swaps to granary.
[10] -3550: Furs seen to NE. Road the cattle. *SAVE* (My autosave actually, forgot)

[11] -3500: From the south comes an American warrior. Alphabet for Bronze Working and 1g.
[12] -3450: Two workers from Abe? Burial, Warrior code and 6g get them. They'll head
for the ivory via the flood plain. Carthage now size 2, needs 10% lux until then.
Our native worker moves NE for the other BG.
[13] -3400: Now Aztecs have a worker! He's ours for 34g. (I struggle to remind myself this
is allowed in this game, it's quite a blow to the AI). Slave heads NW too, where the
others start a road. Native worker starts mining.
[14] -3350: We meet an Iro scout. They are a backward people. I'll not help them in this
game, with domination goal. (Space race they would get a helping hand)
Road done, two move to ivory.
[15] -3300: A bit of shuffling with our scout as the jaggies keep landing on a mtn
I want to climb.
[16] -3250: Ivory road complete, lux drops, we move to irrigate the flood plains.
[17] -3200: Warrior scout starts heading NW. Size 3, back at 10% lux.
[18] -3150: Two slaves move to irrigate ivory plains, another moves past them onto the
ivory currently outside our borders to the N (where we'll likely send a settler soon)
Native workers heads for yet another BG tile. mms for granary due in 2.
[19] -3100: Not much.
[20] -3050: Granary done, start a settler. Aztecs sell another worker for 34g! *SAVE*
I just noticed, two of the purchases workers are *barbarian* workers. I read about
that, but didn't think the AI would capture any :P

[21] -3000: Wealthiest nations: Aztecs, Chinese, Americans, us, Germans, Greeks, Iro, Persia.
[22] -2950: Aztecs have settled not far from us. Hrm... Actually, it's in a great spot to
capture, right on the lake.
[23] -2900: Abe has Mysticism.
[24] -2850: First settler done, finally. We start Barracks. A Persian spear shows up nearby,
and they're somewhat backward, and broke. If I were him, I would step up my capital
and demand tribute. Let's see what he does... Hrmm... no, I'll make a warrior now,
useful for MP if nothing else.
[25] -2800: The spear moves away, I swap back to rax :P
[26] -2750: Utica founded, 3 squares due north of capital, on a river. It starts a temple,
to expand to get another ivory, to pressure the Aztecs, and to get SOME culture for us.
[27] -2710: Irrigation next to utica.
[28] -2670: Two more Aztec workers for sale, bought for 3gpt+4g. They're pure Aztecs.
[29] -2630: Roadwork
[30] -2590: We see our first barbarian. Aztecs have Iron Working along with Mysticism.
Abe also has both. We want a third civ to get one, to be able to broker.

Well that was a quick 30. I don't feel like that was a strong start at all. I just
have two cities, although Carthage is size 5 and about to finish a rax, it's very
well improved, we're in the middle of the pack with the AI, and things look ok.

Save files 10-20-30 zipped (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc2590-3550.zip)

Charis

(PS The upload is one zip file, as I didn't see the point of spamming the upload folder
with three individually. The zip has 3 files all properly named Charis_QSC_C2e_bcyyyy.sav
However, if this is improper, let me know. I noticed half used .sav and half .zip here)

EDIT - Here are the individual save files
3550BC - Turn 10 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc3550.sav)
3050BC - Turn 20 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc3050.sav)
2590BC - Turn 30 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc2590.sav)

PPS... Post #999 here :hammer: Number 1000 is a Guide to 5CC just now posted on the Strategy Articles forum:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44458

Karasu

Feb 14, 2003, 01:56 AM

Charis,
I think my way of uploading the saves is a lot more improper than yours.

I actually did try to attach the single file -but it was too large. Since I have never uploaded anything before and I was in a real hurry yesterday, I opted for the "spamming" approach.

I promise I won't do that again... :nono:

flexo

Feb 14, 2003, 08:28 AM

My apologize for missing the deadline, forgot to check my pm's there for a couple of days. Will play like mad tonight and submit tomorrow. Have resisted reading your lines so far. I'll be back!

Arizona_Steve

Feb 14, 2003, 09:33 AM

@ Karasu - you should be using the easy upload facility and linking your file to your message via the http:// button above the reply box (using the post reply button - not the text box that appears under all the messages).

The easy upload has a maximum size of 3MB - the attachment facility only allows 100KB and it's use is discouraged as it has brought down the CivFanatics forums a number of times in the past.

hotrod0823

Feb 14, 2003, 12:22 PM

I should've payed more attention but I am wondering: Do the barb workers work at half speed? I didn't notice a slow down. On second thought is only because we are industrious that I didn't see the slaves effect?

Hotrod

Singularity

Feb 14, 2003, 05:08 PM

I'm currently playing this game at the regent level.

I'm fairly sure they work at the same redused speed as the other captured/bought workers. It takes one normal worker and one foreign one turn to finish a road at a grasstile, while it takes three foreign ones to finish the same piece of road. This is worth considering when you make up the worker crews.

flexo

Feb 15, 2003, 07:28 AM

where is the easy upload facility? so that I can send in my report.
the files are somewhat larger than 100kb

Singularity

Feb 15, 2003, 09:15 AM

Go to the bottom of your profile page. There is a link to the right that says uploads.

Charis

Feb 15, 2003, 09:18 AM

The 'easy upload' link is at the *very* bottom of any forum page, to the right -- "Upload File". Since that's a javascript poppup, I prefer to go to a normal web page directly:

http://www.civfanatics.net/upload.html

Click the browse button, find you file, hit ok, and then (key step)
don't close the window until you get the "Upload Confirmation" page next. On this page, choose the 'View uploads' link which will show the upload folder. Click the 'date' link to get it to sort by date, a second time if you like to put most recent up top, and then you can right click and "copy shortcut" to get the h t t p link, which you can then paste into your post.

Charis

flexo

Feb 15, 2003, 09:44 AM

ok my first report (4000-2590bc). all saves files are in one easy zip file instead of zipped file by file.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo-qsc-q2e-report-1.zip

4000 bc 1
mountains and deserts, what a wonderful starting position, not. I move the worker up on the hill to the right. ok i see a cow, that is good. better to settle here then to spend a turn in movement. found carthage. hey! there is ivory just to the north, excellent. a warrior in the que, might need some protection in this harsh land. i'm torn between pottery in 13t or bronze in 19t. spartan hoplites sure have great stats. but since this is emperor level i'll need a quick growth spurt to survive so I go for pottery in 13t (sci 90%)

3950 bc 2
move the worker down from the hill to the grassland to road and mine.

3900 bc 3
start roading

3850 bc 4
all work and no fun make flexo sleepy.

3800 bc 5
road done, mine construction starting.

3750 bc 6
warrior done, time to go take a looksie at the world as we don't know it. i'll try and stick to mountaineering so I go to the left hill first. hey there is another source of ivory just north of the one I already know. I start building a barrack for a settler switch later on. this might be my undoing, have to see how I can cope with the unhappy people if I don't provide the ivory.

3700 bc 7
moving to the top of the world with my warrior. revealing yet another ivory. mohahaahah! i'm the godess of ivory :)

3650 bc 8
warrior going to hill. worker to the flood plain to get a quick connect to the ivory as I expand in 3 turns.

3600 bc 9
road the floodplain, warrior to the next mountain top.

3550 bc A
warrior takes another mountain top. spots a source of gold. money, money, money must be funny in a rich queens world.

** SAVE : flexo_QSC_C2e_bc3550.sav **
** I know noone, I have pottery in 2t, 1t away from pop increase. 10 gold +0 pt, sci 90%. 1 warrior, 1 worker. **

3500 bc 1
culture expands to reveal an american regular (3/3) just south of my new border. road is done, gonna connect the ivory. I get the pop, some micromanagement done, stuck at pop 2 but pottery next turn for a switch to granary will fix that. warrior moves to the forest. adjust sci to 10% and get me 4gp/t

Lincon is annoyed, and outnumbers me.
He has bronze and pottery + 1 gold. I have alphabet and 10 gold.
Trade: [Ame] Bronze working + Pottery > Alphabet + 2g.
Linc goes to cautious

I switch to granary (16t). Math in 40t (sci 10%: 4gp/t)

3450 bc 2
starting to road the ivory. a jaguar warrior (3/3) comes to my border.

Monty is polite. Monty has WarriorCode+Burial and 10gp

Trade: [Azt] Masonry > Warrior Code + 10g. [Azt] Pottery + 3g > Ceremonial burrial.
Crap! I should have done that in reverse to get some extra gold in my coffins.

HA! I go to check what is up with Lincon.
Trade: [Ame] Warrior code + 9g > two workers.
Not having any workers should scew Lincon some. Sucker!

Warrior goes between forests. He spots another JW (3/3).

My american slaves move to water and road the cow. I do some money management (6:1:3) to make my second citizen happy without the ivory so he'll work to. now only making 3gpt.

3400 bc 3
warriors move to the green field between hills and forest. revealing a small lake. excellent. american slaves start roading the cow.

3350 bc 4
an aztech worker moves towards my warrior, what the heck is he doing out here. can't attack him since I have no home defence and the JW are close to home. warrior move to the hill. Ivory connection :) Lux down to 0 making 5gpt. worker moves up to build road for a quick move to the next city. Science to 100% math in 33, 0 gpt

3300 bc 5
worker road the next ivory square. the aztech worker moved passed the lake. slaves starts watering the cow. warrior moves south to hill, revealing a furry beaver living in the woods.

3250 bc 6
warrior moves down ontop of the hill. I see coastlines but no aztech borders yet.

3200 bc 7
ivory road done. stupid jw steps on the other ivory so I can move there this turn. move back inside my border and mine that ivory. slaves have drowned the cow. slaves cross the river back, moving to chop down the woods by the city, should be a boost for my settler. warrior moves down towards the hill. A quick trade look: Linc has 53gold, no tech, Monty has 4gp, no tech, I have alpha, someone traded him BW.

3150 bc 8
pop to 3. Must adjust lux rate. Sci > 90% Lux > 10%. Math in 25t, 0 gp/t. warrior moves to hill.

3100 bc 9
slaves start choppin'. warrior get a goto order to the Carthage.

3050 bc A
Ivory mine done, moving to road the third ivory. warriors move one step closer.
Trade with Monty: Alphabet > Worker + 4gp. New slave move to water the floodplain.

** SAVE : flexo_QSC_C2e_bc3050.sav **
** We are the same, all have the same tech, noone has a second city. Linc has the most money. **

3000 bc 1
My border is approached by an iroquois scout. My border is approached by a persian spearmen (3/3). Worker road the third ivory. Warrior one step away from Carthage. Granary built. Settler in 5t. The granary has a negative effect on my income. net loss -1. I'll live with that.

Hiawatha is cautious. 10gp, I have masonry, alpha + warrior code. Xerxes is annoyed. 3gp, I have alphabet and ceremonial burial. No trades.

2950 bc 2
Herodotus happiest civ list: 1. aztec : 2. german : 3. greek : 4. chinese : 5. iroquoi : 6. american : 7. persia : 8. carthagenians

I'm last?! Whatever! PHUCK! The Aztecs build Teotihuacan very close to where I wanted to build my next city. A quick mod of my plan has to be made.

2900 bc 3
Warrior guards the capital. My worker moves back towards the capital.

2850 bc 4
American Slaves cut down the forest, settler in 1. Worker moves to the square next to the cows. Slave i bought last is listed as "worker (a barbarian chiefdom)". Cool! My american slaves road the former wood area. My barbarian slave roads the square next to watered one.

2800 bc 5
Settler done, moving along the road north. Building another. Every worker| slave is roading.

2750 bc 6
american slaves start mining their square. found Utica, warrior in 5t

2710 bc 7
Worker moves up to road another square. Time to road to my next city. Barb Slave moves up to floodplains. Worker roads. Lux > 0%. 0 gp/t

2670 bc 8
?! What did I do this turn. I forgot to write it down. Couldn't have been anything interesting.

2630 bc 9
American slaves move to the next little wood area to cut it down.

2590 bc A
Cutting down the forrest. Worker moves outside border, will road to the hills.

** SAVE : flexo_QSC_C2e_bc2590.sav **
** forgot to make comparrison **

flexo

Feb 15, 2003, 09:48 AM

did the second report to (2550-1525bc)

Posted prematurly. Removed until later.

Karasu

Feb 15, 2003, 11:58 AM

2510 BC
I never pay enough attention to my citizens' happiness... Warrior #3 is sent back to Utica which, having completed the barracks at the cost of 1 citizen, is not too happy. I will start another warrior there...

Warrior #1 (or whatever number I gave to the one that went exploring towards the Aztecs) goes 1NW.

Warrior # slowly returns home: 1N

Leptis Magna founded - production set to barracks.

The worker has completed the road over the elephant (who was so patient as to allow this do be done...) and goes to Leptis Magna, with the purpose of building some more road to the northern fur.

2470 BC
Utica is happy again. This warrior will have to run like an idiot between Utica and Carthago, in whose neighbourhood some American troops are moving a little too much for my liking...

I still haven't decided what use I will do of the Spartan Hoplite...

Warrior #1 moves 1NW, warrior#2 1N meeting a barbarian camp.

worker goes 1N

2430 BC
Warrior #2 goes 1W; worker starts road; warrior #1 defeats a barbarian warrior, gets promoted to Veteran and collects 25 gold pieces. There has also appeard another message I could not read. What could that be?

2390 BC
My people loved me for the second time (...).

Some more exploration - I spotted Iroquois' borders to the NW, so I think warrior #2 will backtrack to go to the future cities' location.

Carthage reached population 2; in 5-6 turns another settler will come.

2310 BC
Utica built its warrior, another one in queue. I think I will start building Spartan Hoplite soon; a worker as soon as the city has grown some more.
I havent' checked the other civs frequently enough to buy one from them; that would have been a nice advantage though.

Warrior #3 goes back to Carthage, the other two slowly turn back.

2230 BC
Worker has completed the road to the planned city site. It will go back to Leptis Magna to irrigate the flood plain and mine the grassland. It will later build a mine next to Carthage as well. I think I am starting to need another worker.

2190 BC
Carthage is one turn from the next settler. Warrior #1 has reached the position of the next city (close to Ivory); Utica is also one turn from warrior.

2150 BC
The newest warrior will spend some time going to the mountain range NE of Utica;
the settler is on his way. Utica starts building a worker.

2110 BC
Writing discovered. I will go for Monarchy now, hoping that trading will help speed up the process. Embassies established with Aztecs (32 gold) and Americans (34 g).
Both are building a settler.

Worker starts mining just north of Carthage.

2070 BC
Theveste founded; Ivory connected. Barracks started in Theveste.
I have seen an Aztec Archer moving around...

Traded Writing to Iroquois for Mysticism, Horseback Riding and 80 gold.
Traded Writing + HR + 47 gold to America for Iron Working
Traded Writing to Aztecs for 71 gold

Yuk! Iron is right next to Leptis Magna...

Embassy with Iroquois (47 g). Salamanca is completing a Settler.
Embassy with Persians (43 g); they do not seem to have a good starting location.

Set lux slider to 0 and science to 90%. Polytheism in 24 turns... A lot of time.

2030 BC
Lost veteran warrior to Barbarian.

1990 BC
Utica makes the Worker, who is sent 1W to work the grassland. I am also thinking of connecting the Horses to Utica, but that can wait a few turns. Also, building horsemen will take some time but I doubt I could have gone for a massive warrior & Chariots upgrade...

Worker #1 goes to irrigate the flood plain next to Theveste.

1870 BC
Worker #2 completes road, starts mine. Carthage has grown to 2 (one-two turns ago), three turns to pop3 + Settler.
Sold Writing to Xerxes for 52 gold.

1790 BC
Utica has made the warrior, and started another one. This warrior is sent to Leptis, while the one staying there will go to the next city site -Chartage is one turn from producing her settler.

The Aztec beat me to the first spot, founding Texcoco for us there...

Another nice place for founding a city will be along the river to the west of Theveste.

1725 BC
The last settler is going to found a city next to the unclaimed Iron west of Theveste. The second worker will build a road to the hills NE of Utica (I will found the next city there); Leptis, having grown too fast for my attention and having spent yet another turn rioting, is brought back to pop 2 by hurrying the barracks.

1650 BC
Other civs are starting to build Wonders.
I had to give 28 g to the Aztec, as he had a JW within striking distance of an unescorted Carthaginian settler.

Hippo is founded in the anticipated spot just in time, as an Aztec settler is seen approaching fast...

1575 BC
Hurried Barracks in Theveste.

The Americans have expanded north of the mountain range, getting close to Carthage and cutting the Persians from further northern expansion.

The Aztecs are doing the same with the Iroquois. As the bondaries take their shape, so are my war plans...

1525 BC
Carthage is (again) one turn from another Settler. Room for founding new cities is geeting small. I may change production queue for Carthage after this settler is built. A warrior is coming next turn, so that this is the state of neoCarthage at 1525 BC:

Five cities.
184 gold in treasury (+1 per turn, four turns to Polytheism).
Army: 2 Workers, 8 warriors.

Histograph:
neoCarthage 197
Iroquois 181
America 177
Aztecs 174
Persia 160

Below is an image of the known world at 1525 BC.

EDIT: the zipped save files are here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Karasu_QSC_C2e_Second.zi)

cracker

Feb 15, 2003, 12:14 PM

flexo,

We need you to pay attention to the schedule and the examples of how the game needs to procedd or you just creat disruption and confusion.

What we try to do is have all the reports and uploads for a round of play completed and then let me get the statistics up to support some discussion.

As it is, you first round submission was two days lat and I have been waiting for you and then you slammed your sceond round report in before I could even locate and analyse the game.

While this may seem like a small issue, it can just create a mess and make the game hard to follow if you tune out how all the other players are trying to move forward in progressive steps.

What I would prefer that you do is to use the edit function to reduce your second round report to just a comment and save that post until I get the statistics up later today.

As it was, you made it almost impossible for me to effectively support you in your game with the valuable statistics analysis just by how you chose to follow the game schedules.

-- cracker

PS: Karasu you need to do the same thind to give me a chance to respond eve thoung I know you were just following Flexo/s example.

Karasu

Feb 15, 2003, 01:25 PM

You're right Cracker.

I submitted my first round of saves in a real hurry. Having never used the upload feature, I didn't trust myself to use it for the first time in those circumstances.

My last post should be in line with the best practice -if I have to cut the report shorter, just let me know -you are aware that I am not too comfortable with keeping timelines yet...

P.S. Many thanks to Charis for making the last step so clear -that's where my doubts lay. Now no more, I've become an experienced uploader... :D

cracker

Feb 15, 2003, 06:21 PM

Here is the summary data table for 2590bc showing all players in both the emperor and regent groups.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC_C2table2950bc.gif

The tech cost/value is different from Regent to Emperor, and you can see the Regent tech values displayed on the right hand side of the table in the tech section.

The tech costs are higher on Emperor and this means that the value of technolgy is greater because it costs more to obtain.

What dominates the difference between the two groups is that the Regent group is lagging behind almost across the board because early contacts are harder to come by. If you look at the Emperor game section, virtually every player has made contact with 4 neighbors while in the regent game the AI's have no early added units to help increase the chances of contacts. Contacts effect the direct cost of technology as well as the relative costs of traded techs and maps. Having fewer early contacts slows down the progress of the game even though technogly has a cheeper base cost.

Charis

Feb 15, 2003, 11:02 PM

Great openings all, and thanks cracker for your work in analysis, excellent as usual! :hammer:

Turn 30 comments - it's interesting to see how various folks discuss whether
to settle on the starting spot or not. All seemed to give it careful consideration,
but half chose to stay, one went on the hill, two south, one SW. Almost all on emperor
head for the cow to irrigate it, after mining a BG. Arizona for some reason ignored
the cattle for the first millenium, but he did irrigate the flood plains.

I happen to think initial build order is a fairly good indicator
of early success. I'm going to collate build orders then predict from
that alone what the ranking will be at turn 30. In particular, I look
for an early granary, enough scouts but no excess warriors, and avoiding
workers (this map only, due to excess slave traffic).

Build orders:
Arizona: W-W-W-S-W-G
Borealis: W-W-Wk-W-G-Hop-S
Charis: W-G-S-B
Flexo: W-G-S-S
Hotrod: W-W-S-W-S-G
Justus: W-W-W-G-S-W-S
Karasu: W-S-W-S-W-S
Meldor: W-W-W-G-S-S
Swiftsure:W-W-G-S-S

I look at the orders alone and predict this ranking:
Charis, Justus, Flexo and Swiftsure on top, no particular order.
Next up Karasu, Meldor and Hotrod. Then Borealis and Arizona.
(Arizona has too many warriors, although on other maps that could have
meant extra techs from huts. And Hotrod lost food/growth with two settlers
before a granary) Do note that *ALL* Emperor players built a granary.

Actual score at turn 30: Top four as predicted, then Meldor,
Borealis, Karasu. Hotrod and Arizona slightly behind.
Rather close to my prediction!! Hotrod was behind because of zero slaves,
or he would have been higher where I predicted :P Borealis edged up,
conversely, with 3 slaves. (But wow, what paranoia about AI attacks :P )

Let me repeat the exercise in Regent...

Skyfish: W-W-S-G
Stwils: W-W-Wk-S-Hop
Zagnut: W-W-G-S-S
Takeo: W-S-W-G-S
Zenga: W-Wk-W-G-S-W-S
Nightfang: W-W-G-S-Hop
Singular: W-S-S-S

The following predictions are purely on build order FOR THIS Map, and
say nothing about player skill or how these would work on other maps:

Predicted rank: Takeo, Zagnut; Nightfang,Zenga,Singular; Skyfish,Stwils
Actual rank: Takeo, Skyfish; Nightang, Zagnut, Zenga; Stwils,Singular
Again, build order was a good predictor of turn 30 progress.
Skyfish was MUCH higher than I expected from the order, and it's because
he absolutely cleaned clock on techs. Singular was slightly lower, and this
was due to low contacts. Zagnut came out a little low, which can be explained
by his very low treasury.

Looking more closely, Singularity's very low warrior count led to his low
contact count (although low counts often reverse themselves, they do affect
your economy). Skyfish's tech success was in fact deliberate, his science
gambit. Zagnut's science spending and unrest oops hurt a little, although
he might make that up next set of turns if he can get a good trade on Writing.
It's no coincidence that the two low scores built no granaries :P

The only one in *either* group that I read mining the cow was stwils. (I only point this out as it was a big discussion issue in QSC-1 where folks more evenly split mining vs irrigation. Here, needing the food bonus more, irrigation is quite likely the stronger choice)

Conclusion 1: The Charis "Thumbs up" award for innovation this set of turns goes to...
Skyfish and his science strategy :goodjob:
Conclusion 2: Build a granary SOMETIME before your second settler.
Conclusion 3: Even when I'm not fighting, the "Genghis" in me manages to field
together a slave labor force that is *double* the nearest other player :hammer:

:D
Charis

hotrod0823

Feb 15, 2003, 11:35 PM

Actually, the chart is wrong. I grabbed 3 slaves and PM'd cracker as such ;). The additional 105 will put me right back in the pack.

Hotrod

hotrod0823

Feb 16, 2003, 12:21 AM

Tech Research Choices:

Charis: Writing

Hotrod: Pottery - Writing

Meldor: Warrior Code - Pottery - Iron Working

Steve: Pottery - Wheel - IW

Justus: Pottery - Math

karasu: Writing

Swiftsure: Pottery - Writing

Borealis: Pottery - Writing

Flexo: Pottery - Math

Most players went with Pottery from the start to get that early granary Charis spoke of and because it is cheap and if you pop a hut who wants the chance to get a cheap tech. 2 players went tier 2 from the start. I suspect this is a special case. Masonry and Alphabet are expensive free techs to start with and will fetch some good trades. Charis, for example, has yet to complete any self research but already has brokered for most of the tier 1 techs.

I don't think this works with just any Civ. Looking just at the tech costs it is apparent that Carthage is in a very strong tech position from the get go and you can almost be garanteed a good trade opportunity just because you have such great techs to trade.

Writing will get most of the remaining Tier 2 techs as well I suspect. Math may not be as powerful but we shall see when round 2 is completed. We can compare tech position of Flexo and Justus to the rest who went for Writing and Steve and Meldor, both chose IW. Maybe Meldor has designs on the pointed stick research plan. :hammer: ;)

Hotrod

Just a couple observations along the same lines as Charis build order, tech choices are just as important.

Borealis

Feb 16, 2003, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Charis

I happen to think initial build order is a fairly good indicator
of early success. I'm going to collate build orders then predict from
that alone what the ranking will be at turn 30. In particular, I look
for an early granary, enough scouts but no excess warriors, and avoiding
workers (this map only, due to excess slave traffic).

Build orders:
Borealis: W-W-Wk-W-G-Hop-S

I look at the orders alone and predict this ranking:
Charis, Justus, Flexo and Swiftsure on top, no particular order.
Next up Karasu, Meldor and Hotrod. Then Borealis and Arizona.
(Arizona has too many warriors, although on other maps that could have
meant extra techs from huts. And Hotrod lost food/growth with two settlers
before a granary) Do note that *ALL* Emperor players built a granary.

Actual score at turn 30: Top four as predicted, then Meldor,
Borealis, Karasu. Hotrod and Arizona slightly behind.
Rather close to my prediction!! Hotrod was behind because of zero slaves,
or he would have been higher where I predicted :P Borealis edged up,
conversely, with 3 slaves. (But wow, what paranoia about AI attacks :P )

*shrug* Paranoia about AI attacks... maybe it's almost always playing in PTW, but the last few times I've sent out an unguarded settler with this many AI around, they either kill it or raze the city before it can get a defender. The next step was the archer-stack-at-the-capital-gates act that made me wonder if one of the bloodthirsty humans playing online had hacked into my machine and controlled the AI. :crazyeye: After that run of bad luck, I decided to be careful in this QSC. It will probably put me behind the other emperor players, but I'm not too upset about that given the roster I see here. :p

Good call on the slaves being available making you skip the early second worker- I forgot about the reduced cost for them in 1.29, and I've never seen so many available this early.

flexo

Feb 16, 2003, 08:08 AM

Very interesting. So we can conclude that a Granary is the foundation of every empire. No empire built without one.

How come we are 9 emperor players but only 7 regent? Did they drop out?

As noted in the tech comparrison I chose Math over Writing (how one can accomplished without the other I don't know). Having sold the secret of the Alphabet to half of my contacts I gambled on that they would go the writing way and that I should be able to pick up writing from them since they tend to share freely among eachother. From previous gaming experience I have found that the AI usually likes to research Writing before Math so by getting Math before writing I was hoping for a trade with some extra goodies. This turned out to be a misstake of sort since the others Civs didn't do as I had hoped and I had to research Writing myself. But I could use my Math for trading.

The main tech difference between myself and Justus is that he traded for the wheel on his 30'th turn. I waited a few more turns to do that.

flexo

Feb 16, 2003, 09:01 AM

OK it is now nearly 1600 CET on the 16th so it should be safe to post my second report (sorry for that premature posting previously).

edit:
DUH! It would have been great if I had remembered to post a link to the saves to ... here goes report 2 savefiles (3in1 zip collection) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo-qsc-q2e-report-2.zip).

From 2550 > 1525BC

** SECOND REPORT START **

2550 bc 1
Settler done, Next one in que. Utica builds a warrior, Guarding, keep building warrirors. Settler moves towards the hill.

2510 bc 2
Barb Worker starts irrigation. Settler moves ontop of hill.

2470 bc 3
American scouts flies by outside my borders. Heading south. Found Leptis Magna on the hill. Time to build some hoplites.

2430 bc 4
Leptis connected. Mine the square before.

2390 bc 5
American workers cut down the forrest > Settler gets build two turns faster :) Moving settler to the furs I saw earlier. American worker road the former forest square. Sci > 70%, Math will be done next turn.

2350 bc 6
sci > 70%, writing in 23t; 2gp/t. Utica builds a warrior, time to scout about a bit, going to gold. Barb slave move down to help mining around Magna.

Time to trade!
Linc (1+1 city:0g) has The wheel, Iron working and mysticism.
Xerx (1+1 ci:30g) Wheel, Iron (not alphabet)
Iroq (1+1 ci:0g) Wheel, Iron (not alphabet)
Azte (1+1 ci:86g) wheel, iron, myst.

So trade alpha with xerx and iroq first. then try and get myst from linc, and math for all of montys gold.

Trade:
[Iroq] Alphabet > The Wheel
[Ame] Math > Myst + Iron
[Per] Alphabet > 30g
[Azt] Math > 86g

Sci > 90%, netloss -1 : writing in 17t

2310 bc 7
worker move thru Magna for road/mine square south of its river. barb worker, starts road/mine south of main road to magna. settler moves one step closer to site. american workers split. one moves out into the unknown, one moves to work around Utica.

2270 bc 8
just moving around a bit. nothing exciting happend.

2230 bc 9
Found Theveste. Looks like i beat an aztech settler to the place. There is a barb camp there to. Must move warrior there quickly. Warrior leaves Utica for Theveste.

2190 bc A
Barb worker start mining. Worker start mining.

** SAVE : flexo_QSC_C2e_bc2190.sav **

2150 bc 1
Utica builds warrior, Hoplite next. Other just work|move.

2110 bc 2
Settler done. Moving left. I see that the aztecs are moving a JW to kill the barb camp.

2070 bc 3
American worker chopping some wood for the to be city. Worker going to connect Magna > Theveste. Warrior reaches Theveste.

2030 bc 4
Found Hippo. Theveste warrior moving to put barb camp out. My scouting warrior moves back home, there could be a barb camp between him and Utica.

1990 bc 5
Magna Hoplite done, settler next. NOOOOOOOO! Warrior looses (barb at 1/2). Magna Hoplite moving to protect Theveste.

1950 bc 6
Livy lists the wealthiest nations:
1. Carthaginians : 2. Chinese : 3. Germans : 4. Iroquois : 5. Americans : 6. Greeks. : 7. Persians : 8. Aztechs

My spies inform me that the Iroquois have started constructing the Oracle.

Just for the heck of it I watch the world ranking:
160 NeoCarthaginians : 150 America : 146 Iroquois : 137 Aztecs : 128 Persia

Barb worker mines a roaded square. Next to the wet cow. Utica can't grow beyond two at the moment.

1910 bc 7
The people love me! They build me a spiffy platform. Utica warrior defeats a barbarian regular (1/3). Sci > 30% Writing in 1t (+14gpt)
Warrior (3/3) attack barb camp north of Utica. Defeat! ;(

1870 bc 8
sci > 90 % litterature in 12t (+1gpt). Settler done. Building another one. Change Leptis Magna from Settler to Temple.

1830 bc 9
Aztech JW takes out the Thevese barbarian camp. Thanks! Thevese builds a warrior, guess I can scout around a bit.

1790 bc A
Thevese connected to empire road grid. Moving settler.

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc1790.sav **

** BREAK IN THE REPORT FOR A SCREENSHOT **

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo_QSC_C2e_bc1790.jpeg

** RETURN TO THE REPORTS LAST 1/3 **

1750 bc 1
Utica builds Hoplite. Sends warrior scouting. Worker moves to build a road to the forests beavers.

1725 bc 2
Found Leptis Minor.

1700 bc 3
Nothing much happens. Just another dull day in the empire.

1675 bc 4
Crap! Forgot to adjust my lux rate. Civil disorder in Magna.

1650 bc 5
A little birdie tells me the Persians are building the Colossus. Fur is connected, everybody happy! Couldn't that have happend a turn ago!?!

1625 bc 6
Settler done. Barb worker moves into the jungle. American worker irrigates around Hippo.

1600 bc 7
Aztecs are also building on that Oracle thingy. Mostly workers working now, and waiting for stuff to finish ...

1575 bc 8
nothing exciting happends. i see some aztec workers are working north of Utica.

1550 bc 9
Found Sabratha. Leptis Magna temple done, building palace (for jump to great library). Utica builds another Hoplite. Moving it to Carthage Sci > 10% Litterature in 1t.

1525 bc A
Litterature done. Currency in 13t (sci 100% -2 gpt 185 in hold). Persia contacts me for a deal (horseback > Math in mid turn, no deal). My people want the forbidden palace. American worker irrigates some more land around hippo.

Trade:
[Per] Math > Horseback + 10gp
[Iro] Math > 50gp

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc1525.sav **

** SECOND REPORT COMPLETE **

meldor

Feb 16, 2003, 03:12 PM

I will limit this to only the more important details.

2550 BC - Aquire Iron Working for 23g.
2470 BC - Iron hooked up to roads.
2430 BC - Utica builds warrior starts barracks. Found Leptis Magna near furs on the Aztec side.
2350 BC - Xeres comes to the party, we end the turn up Mysticism and the wheel. Horses outside Utica.
2190 BC - Thevesre founded on fresh water toward Americans.

2190 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc2190.zip)

1990 BC - Hippo founded on the coast.
1870 BC - Utica builds barrcks and starts swords.
1830 BC - Pick up writing for 16g

1790 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc1790.zip)

1725 BC - Found Leptis Minor after Aztecs build in irritating spot.
1650 BC - Find that the CIV3PTW units floder is dieffent from the CIV3 units folder. Guess were I put the Hopies?
1525 BC - Our last city of the expandsionist phase is founded, Sabratha.

1525 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc1525.zip)

At the end of the expansion phase for me it stands Aztecs and Persia with five cities, Iroquois with 4, America with only 1! and me with 7. I think the Persians and Iroquis will probably end with 6 each. there is maybe room for 2 more cities before Mapmaking. For now begin the conquest portion of our program with the Aztecs the first likely canidate as they have an abondance of spices and I now have three barracks on-line.

hotrod0823

Feb 16, 2003, 03:27 PM

2590 BC (30): Reviewing my current postion I wonder if completing the granary before the next settler is the best option. I decide to leave it for now.

2550 bC (31): Foresty complete at Carthage, granary now only 24 away :). Moving warrior/settler pair toward the furs in the south. Warrior in the south moves to see that Washinton will soon have incence.

2510 BC (32): NOthing to speak of.

2470 BC (33): Continue toward the furs with the warrior/settler pair. Worker/slaves complete roads on their way toward the fur city. Decide to forgo the mine for now and focus on getting furs online as soon as possible.

2430 BC (34): Found Leptis Magna on the middle plains, furs will be online after my just started temple expands. Decide to whip the barracks in Utica. Want those vet spartans NOW ;).

2390 BC (35): MM Carthage to get granary in 8, 2 turns before growth to 3. Utica barracks is completed start on spartan hop.

2350 BC (36): Continue my trek south around the american capital.

2310 BC (37): Reduce research to 80%, writing due next turn.

2270 BC (38): Learn Writing start Literature. Due in 28 turns at 80% and +0 gpt. Trade abe Writing for Mysticism, Contact with Bizzy and 50 gold. Trade Bizzy Writing for contact with Greece and China. Trade Greece writing for contact with Persia, and the wheel. Trade Mao Writing for HBR, and 9 gold. Trade Monty writing straight up for Iron working. Persia has nothing and will get nothing. Form Embassy with the Aztecs for 30 gold. 4 new techs and 4 Contacts [dance].

2230 BC (39): Quick diplo check reveals that both America and Persia have yet to expand beyond their capitals. Decide that now may be the time to move on them both. Research to 90%, lit in 22 turns.

2190 BC (40): Survive a barb attack at Utica. Continue to move warrior south. Granary in 2 at Carthage grows in 3.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_2190BC.zip

2150 BC (41): Continue moving south, barb warrior is roading toward the next city site. LIT in 20 turns.

2110 BC (42): Move workers to work the horsey in the northern part of Lepis Magna. MM Carthage for max food and still get granary next turn.

2070 BC (43): Carthage builds granary, starts settler.

2030 BC (44): Some movement, nothing to speak of. Icrease lux to 10%, MM Carthage to get settler and growth the samve turn.

1990 BC (45): Settler and growth the same turn. Persia and America get there second cities. Horses are now online.

1950 BC (46): Barbs showed up next to my worker :(. Flee the area that was my next city site. will require cleanup crew first. Wake warrior in Utica and send West.

1910 BC (47): Moving the warrior caused Utica to revolt, up lux to 20%. :smoke: for sure.

1870 BC (48): My warrior is lost. 2 Jags take out the camp. I risk it but send the settler anyway. IF the aztecs attack I am in deep trouble now. Carthage starts another settler. Change Utica to archer wasting 2 shield but getting some units on the board.

1830 BC (49): Utica builds archer starts a warrior. Settler continues to move but a jag is in the way.

1790 BC (50): The aztecs are everywhere I am in trouble if he attacks. spot a barb camp in the south. Settler is in position for a city next turn.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_1790BC.zip

1750 BC (51): Found Theveste in the flood plain rich area NW of Utica start a warrior.

1725 BC (52): Disperse a barb camp in the south for 25 gold.

1700 BC (53): There are more aztecs everywhere :(. Another settler is ready next turn.

1675 BC (54): Utica builds a warrior starts another. Carthage a settler and starts another. Each will head east. Cut lux back to 10%.

1650 BC (55): Aztecs continue to take my spots, have to move my site 1 tile SW. Will be there next turn.

1625 BC (56): Theveste builds warrior starts barracks. Lit next turn at 60%. +3 gpt.

1600 BC (57): Learn Lit start on Math. Found Hippo East of Carthage start warrior. Give Monty LIt and 2 gpt for Math and Philosophy. Trade Mao math for 70 gold. Now researching Maps, due in 17 at 80 % and -1 gpt.

1575 BC (58): Some worker moves, sending warrior in the south home. Whip the temple in Leptis.

1550 BC (59): Utica builds Warrior starts Spartan Hopilite. Leptis builds temples starts warrior. Other misc. moves.

1525 BC (60): Settler pairs up with vet warrior for journey south of Carthage. Map Making due in 14 at 80% with -4 gpt. NO new trade posibilities.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_1525BC.zip

Justus II

Feb 16, 2003, 05:04 PM

Fourth Set of 10 turns
2550 Warriors continue to explore, W1 heading south from the coast, basically following along the Iroquois lands, W2 moving north and west along the southern coast, W3 working his way back to Carthage from the Northeast mountains, and W4 also moving S/SW toward Carthage. Worker1 moves NE to start building a road from Utica toward a new city site near the northern fur. Slave1 moves NW of Utica to mine the grassland. Slave2 starts building a road on the irrigated floodplain near my next city site, NW of Carthage, and Slave3 moves NE to start on the next floodplain. Tax rate is 6.1.3, will get Mathematics in 20 turns, +5gpt.
2510 Work1 starts the road, Slave1 starts mining, S3 starts road.
2470 Carthage finishes 2nd Settler, starts next one, Settler2 heads NE, NW, SW along the road.
2430 Utica finishes warrior, starts another, moves toward Carthage. Settler continues SW. Work1 finishes road, moves NE, Slave 2 finishes road, moves S.
2390 Leptis Magna is founded (2W,2NW from Carthage), starts on Warrior. Warrior from Utica is moved into Carthage. Work1 moves NE to grass/bonus. Slave2 moves SW to horse, S3 finishes road and starts irrigating 2nd floodplain. I drop luxuries to 20%.
2350 W1 sees Iroquois settler, W2 finds more Incense along coast S of Iroquois. Work1 starts mine on grass bonus. Slave2 starts a road on the horse.
2310 Carthage finishes Settler#3, starts another. Settler moves NW/N along road to the fur N of Utica. W3 is now fortified in Carthage, so I can drop lux to 10%. Iroquois settle Grand River 13NW of Carthage.
2270 Slave1 finishes mine, starts road.
2230 Utica finishes another warrior, moves E. W3 moves toward Leptis, since some Aztecs are moving in the area, even though Monty is still polite. Work1 finishes mine, starts road, Slave2 finishes rd, start irrigation (Horses are connected!), Slave3 finishes irrigation, moves N. Bump lux back up to 20%. I checking on the Aztecs, I see they have Iron Working, as do Americans. I make a deal with Lincoln for 60g+3gpt, then sell it to Iroquois and Persia for 30g each. (I normally would not sell it to Persia, but I still haven’t found their territory, they must be on the other side of the Americans, so Lincoln can deal with their immortals). We have 3 sources nearby, one 2NE of Carthage, one 2NW,1N of Leptis Magna, and one in the NE mountains along the coast. I don’t plan on hooking them up yet, but I wanted to know where they are before I settle too many more cities. Aztecs have a settler/jag combo moving toward the NW iron, but then move away?
2190 Theveste is founded, 1SW of northern fur, starts on Temple immediately. W2 sees Iron and Horses S of Iroquois lands. Slave3 starts road N of Leptis. Aztecs now have Mysticism, want 70g, I restructure to 10g+3gpt, keeping them polite. They must have already traded it around.
* End of fourth ten turns: I still have my worker plus 3 slaves, and 6 warriors, and a total of 4 cities. Mathematics is 11 turns away. I have 220 gold, +11gpt. The Iroquois now have the lead with 132 pts, 99g, 2 cities, cautious. Aztecs are still polite, 10g, 2 cities, and 128 points. America is now annoyed, even with the gpt for IronWorking, 69g, 2 cities, and 127 pts. Persia is annoyed, has 1g but 3 cities, and 118 pts. My score is 131.

Fifth Set of 10 turns
2150 Carthage pumps out another settler, who heads W along the road. My warriors continue to explore, with two mapping out the borders of the Iroquois, and one checking N of the Aztecs. Worker1 moves NW to the Fur, Slave1 moves S.
2110 Settler continues SW into Leptis. Worker1 starts to cut the forest, S1 moves S onto the floodplain between Utica and Carthage.
2070 Leptis finishes a warrior to go with the settler, starts a temple. Utica finishes another warrior, moves N to Theveste. A warrior spots some Ivory along the coast S of the Iroquois. S1 starts to irrigate the floodplain, S2 finishes irrigating the horses, moves S, and S3 finishes the road, moves NE to the Grass Bonus. Settler starts S past the horses.
2030 S2 starts a road, S3 mines bonus. Check my neighbors, all but Aztecs have horseback riding, but I’m not ready to deal yet.
1990 Carthage builds another settler, who also moves W.
1950 Barbarian appears near Theveste, my warrior attacks, kills him at a cost of 1hp. Must be a camp nearby, so I send another warrior N from Carthage. War2, S of Iroquois, sees a peninsula at the western tip, and more land across a 1-tile straight!
1910 Hippo founded SW of southern furs, starts on Temple. Forest near Theveste cleared by worker1, start on road. S2 finishes irrigation, starts a road, S2 finishes road, moves S again.
1870 Leptis Minor founded 2N, 1NE of Leptis Magna (ironic, but appropriate!), next to gold. Starts on Temple. S2 starts on road. Iroquois have two workers available, I buy them for 20g+2gpt, send them to Forest NE of Leptis Magna.
1830 Carthage pumps out another settler, who heads NE toward the horses. Utica finishes another warrior, starts a barracks. Warrior from Theveste sees the barb camp in the NE mountains. Road is finished on the N. Fur, can’t irrigate so I move S to plains. Iroq. Slaves start cutting forest, to speed up temple in Leptis Magna. I drop luxuries to 10% with the added furs.
1790 Warrior takes out barb camp, gets 25g, but loses 2hp. Worker1 starts irrigating, S1 finishes road, then follows road to forest NE of Carthage. S3 finishes mine, starts road on bonus near Leptis Minor. Iroquois starts the oracle :-O In checking my rivals, they have discovered writing, which will have to wait until I complete Math next turn.
** End of fifth set of turns: I am in the lead, with 174 points, 6 cities, 299g+11gpt. I have a worker, 5 slaves, a settler, and 9 warriors. Iroquois in second, cautious, 4 cities, 13g, 155 pts. Aztecs still polite, have 4 cities, 59g, 149 points. Americans are annoyed, 3 cities, 8g, 141 pts, and Persia is annoyed, 0g, 3 cities, 139 points. All four have horseback and writing.

Sixth set of 10 turns
1750 Sabratha is founded 2E,2NE of Carthage, starts on Barracks. S1 starts to cut forest to W. S2 finishes road, moves S(next to furs). I finished Mathematics, so I start trading. I use a mixed order, I start with the civs with no gold, so I can get the techs, then take gold from the last two. I get Writing from the Persians, Horse Riding +1g from the Americans, 60g from the Aztecs, and settle for 15g from the Iroqouis (better me than someone else). Now it is time to start some real research, I go for Polytheism, both because it usually has trade value and because I want to try to get Monarchy quickly, before my golden age if I plan it right. At 60% research, I can get it in 15 turns, losing 1gpt, but my economy is growing and I have 397g, so it shouldn’t be a problem. I want to try and get it about the same time as the AI researches (hopefully) map reading and literature.
1725 Worker1 finishes irrigating, moves N to fur. S2 starts a road.
1700 Carthage finishes another settler, who moves W. I shift the warrior from Utica to escort. Worker1 starts to irrigate fur, S3 finishes road, moves ENE to flood plain N of Leptis Minor.
1675 Settler moves through Leptis. S3 starts to irrigate. S4/S5 finish cutting the forest, which is added to the temple in Leptis Major, and split up. S4 moves S to where our new settler is headed, S5 heads NE to Sabratha. The Aztecs start the Oracle, Persians start Colossus.
1650 Settler heads S/SW, Worker finishes irrigating the fur, moves S. S2 finishes road, moves to Grass Bonus NW of Hippo.
1625 Settler moves W into jungle. Worker starts a road in the plains, S2 starts a mine, S4 starts a road, and S5 starts to mine the bonus 2SW of Sabratha.
1600 Carthage finishes yet another settler, switches to a quick worker. Settler heads S toward jungle. Previous settler founds Rusicade on the coast 2NW,1N of Hippo, starts on Worker. It is time to crack the whip, I rush the Temple in Leptis Magna, and the barracks in Utica. I want to kick-start my culture before the Aztecs get warmed up, and I will need vet warriors before I can start upgrading.
1575 Leptis Magna completes Temple, starts on a worker, Utica completes Barracks, I mm onto a forest to get a warrior every 2 turns, but no growth. Worker1 finishes road, moves SW, S3 finishes irrigating N of Leptis Minor, starts a road, which should connect with Aztecs.
1550 Carthage finishes Worker2, who heads down to the jungle, switches back to settler. New settler continues S again. Worker1 moves SW, S along road. S4 finishes road, moves into forest w/fur.
1525 Utica completes a vet warrior, Theveste finishes a temple (no whip!), starts on a warrior (don’t remember why?). Settler founds Oea 3S of Carthage, in the jungle but on the coast, starts on a worker to clear some of the jungle. Oea will be my jump-off base for the upcoming invasion of America. SK1 starts building a road in the forest SE of Utica, which will soon be covered when Carthage expands its borders, and makes it quicker to travel N-S without crossing rivers. Worker2 starts a road S-SE of Carthage, to connect to Oea. S4 starts to cut the forest with the fur. I see a Barb NE of Sabratha, they must have reformed their camp. Maybe I can finally get a promotion?
*** End of sixth set of turns: I now have 232 points, 9 cities, 2 workers and 5 slaves, plus 10 warriors. I have 388 gold (losing 1gpt) and Polytheism will be done in 4 turns, at 80% (1.8.1). It looks like I am the only one to have completed any cultural buildings. Iroquois are cautious, 185 pts, 5 cities and 43g. Aztecs are polite, 176 pts, 5 cities, and 20g. They also have one spare Spice, which I should be able to trade for next turn, when my road is complete. America has 156 pts, annoyed, still 3 cities, and 32g. Persia has 151 pts, annoyed, 3 cities and 0 gold. After double-checking, none of the AI has either horses or iron hooked up, only the Aztecs and Persia (incense) have luxuries hooked up, although they all have at least one in their borders. Oh well, unfortunately for Lincoln, I may have to take his incense myself, before he figures out how to build a road. (Boy, I guess he could have used those 2 workers about now…._).Zipped Save Files (all 3) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_bc1525.zip)

The Known World as of 1500BC
(Did not play this turn, just forgot to take the screenshot in 1525)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_bc1500_86.jpg

Charis

Feb 16, 2003, 10:56 PM

Turns 31-60

[31] -2550: That barb heads for us, so we mms to get a warrior out in ONE turn :P
[32] -2510: Warrior done, we start temple. Warrior kills the barbarian.
Aztecs and Americans have the Wheel. Persia has iron working (boo!) We trade to him
burial and alphabet and 1gpt for the Working of Iron. We INSTANTLY get a message that
we've got iron connect to Carthage, cool! Must be that mined hill. Indeed, yes, 2 NE.
[33] -2470: Iro's get the Wheel. I'm glad I left them backwards, and can now trade
Iron Working to get that and 15g. No horses yet in our land. There is one NE of the
nearby Aztec city, and one on the coast east of our capital. That one sounds good.
[34] -2390: Carthage hits size 7. We hit 15spt! :) That's a merc per two turns.
[35] -2350: Upgrade our warr to sword.
[36] -2310: Erm... no one has started the Pyramids??? Or ANY wonder?? I could crank it
out in 27 turns, if no one on the other continent got it. With a hoplite only taking
two turns, lets make one or two of those first.
[38] -2230: Our first Spartan Hoplite is done. Wow he looks cool!!! Like superman with that
red cape! To the east we see coast and more iron.
[40] -2190: Almost forget to save. (My internal sense of turns is off by 1. Turn 4000BC
is '0' in my book, but '1' in this game :P )

[41] -2150: Writing done, we start literature in 40. Utica does a double whip for a temple.
No trade yet, I want 2 techs. Second Hoplite done, we start... the Pyramids?! *SAVE*
[42] -2110: Utica starts rax. There we go, Abe has HBR. We trade Writing for HBR+74g,
then HBR to Aztecs for 64g. Then Alphabet to Iro for Mysticism.
[44] -2030: First barb battle, our sword defends against one and wins. (Our near horses)
[45] -1990: Most powerful report: China, Greece, Germans (oh shoot), Aztecs, Persians,
Iro, Americans, us. :P
[46] -1950: First camp dispersed, 25g, off the coast near iron.
[48] -1870: Carthage expands, now at 17spt, Pyramids due in 19.
[49] -1830: Sure, as soon as my defender goes to hunt down a barb, AI sees it as
weakness. Abe demands 34g, and rather than risk the Pyramids, I give in for now.
[50] -1790: Iro start the Oracle. Barb camp dispersed, earning back the tribute cash.
IBT The Aztecs demand tribute too. Their time will come, but for now they get it. *SAVE*

[52] -1700: I sell writing to Xerces for 35g, lest he demand it :P Ditto Iro for 15g.
Persians start Colossus.
[54] -1650: Aztecs start the Oracle. The Americans settle in our SW backyard on the
lake. That makes TWO lake cities I plan to capture :P
[59] -1550: I stumble my sword next to the Aztec capital, guarded by a spear. :lol:
[60] -1525: First new tech in a while, Abe has Map Making. I wasn't kicked out of Aztec
territory?? Boy it's tempting to take a swing! It's just size 2 - perhaps the extra
defender just left with a settler pair? No... you're not Genghis Khan this game,
calm down Charis. We want our golden age in Monarchy!

I expect to be lower in the QSC at turn 60. My strat may become clearer in the next
set of turns, but I have something definite in mind.

Turn 40 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc2190.sav)
Turn 50 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc1790.sav)
Turn 60 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc1525.sav)

Charis

PS @Hotrod - I like that summary of tech research choices, tnx! Pottery is definitely
a great tech to have early, but I assumed I would get in via trade fast enough. And in
fact my second thing built was granary. With an expansionist civ you make a good point,
to block out a cheap tech to find better ones.

@Borealis - I have never, ever, had an AI attack my settler, whether he is escorted
or not. I only escort for the sake of barbarians now. It's exceedingly rare they'll
attack an empty city of mine, but it does prompt them to demand tribute. I've had them
sneak attack early only twice in all the games I've played. One was actually gotm-15
with my OCC. I think I was 1hp from losing the game. So in a case like that we might have
seen half the group die out right away.

@flexo - I lean toward thinking a granary is almost universally a must-have in either your
first or second city. There are exceptions, but it's not the norm. One is very useful in
this game because you have room to expand, and will want many settlers, and because the
food supply is not overly great, while shields are plentiful at Carthage.

hotrod0823

Feb 16, 2003, 11:25 PM

So I wonder Charis is it possible to win a by domination with only 2 self built cities. :hmmm:. ???? Am I getting warm?

Hotrod

Justus II

Feb 17, 2003, 01:20 AM

I had considered counting on trade or a hut to get Pottery, it is a cheap tech, but I didn't want to take the chance on it being delayed, and I didn't know right away that I would have 2 expansionist neighbors. In fact, if I had, I probably wouldn't have wasted the time on the third warrior, I basically didn't have a chance at any huts anyway, with all the scouts and jag warriors running all over the place. I was looking to see if anyone had any better luck with huts, but it doesn't look like it. But I figure all the cheap workers have made up for it!

@Charis: I was guessing a 5 City Challenge, after reading your strategy article, but if so I thought you would have built more by now, so I am still guessing. Maybe a fresh-water only strategy, since you keep talking about the lake cities?

Borealis

Feb 17, 2003, 02:18 AM

2590 BC (30): Pre-turn- nothing to change.

2550 BC (31):
(IT): Barb warrior suicides against spartan hoplite.

2510 BC (32): MM Carthage to grow the turn the settler is built.

2470 BC (33):

2430 BC (34): Carthage produces a settler, which is sent out with the hoplite to claim the furs.

2390 BC (35): Alphabet + 8 gold gets me The Wheel from Hiawatha. The Wheel + Alphabet gets me Iron Working + 10 gold from X-man. Iron Working + 14 gold gets me Mysticism + barb worker from Monty. Iron is revealed in Carthage's radius, in a mountain to the northwest, in Iro territory, and north of Iro territory... that's a lot of iron on this island! Horses are also revealed to the northwest of Carthage, to be grabbed with the next city.

2350 BC (36):

2310 BC (37): Utica founded. Lux tax to 10% to quiet Carthage

2270 BC (38): Carthage MMed to build settler and grow on the next turn.

2230 BC (39): Carthage builds settler; starts another. Lux tax dropped.

2190 BC (40): Furs are hooked up, and a settler is one turn away from the next city site.

(IT): The Persians settle Susa right next to Washington, in a location that will grab horses but grow very slowly.

2150 BC (41):

2110 BC (42): Leptis Magna founded. Carthage MMed again.

2070 BC (43): Diplo check reveals two Iroquois workers available... I buy them for 54 gold.

2030 BC (44): Carthage builds settler; starts another.

1990 BC (45): The Aztecs have Writing; I am six turns away. Abe has plenty of money to buy it from Monty.

1950 BC (46): Theveste founded. Monty hasn't traded Writing away yet.

1910 BC (47): Carthage MMed. America has bought Writing for all his gold.

(IT): I see Niagra Falls go green... the Aztecs are at war with the Iroquois!

1870 BC (48): Hoplite moves to Utica- losing a luxury would set me back more at this point than access to not-yet-expanded cultural boundaries and I mislike the look of X-man's spear. Warrior from Carthage sent to Leptis Magna- Carthage can build a defender fast, and I want my border cities defended from now on, as the AI seems to have used up its expansion phase and has headed into war mode.

1830 BC (49): Carthage builds settler, starts hoplite. Settler heads out to meet the wandering warrior. Lux tax dropped for now. America has Writing and Math- Monty should be able to buy it shortly.

(IT): Two American warriors approach Utica. Abe can't be thinking of attacking... with warriors? I know undefended cities are supposed to provoke the AI, but this is ridiculous.

1790 BC (50): Writing is due in one turn, and Utica has been MMed to build another hoplite in one turn rather than two in case Abe is after us. He doesn't have units to reach Carthage to build a hoplite, and if he attacks, he's in trouble.

(IT): Writing discovered; Map Making started at 10%.

1750 BC (51): American warriors pass by for now. Mass embassy building ensues now that we have Writing, to tell us when various AI's are too busy fighting each other to oppose neo-Carthage.

Embassy in Tenochtitlan reveals Monty building archers without a barracks, at size one. He has spices there, and a river, but no food bonus, with a two spear garrison.

Embassy in Washington reveals a settler being built in 18 turns, with two irrigated floodplain tiles being worked, and a clown! It seems buying the workers has stopped Abe from irrigating any plains in his capital, crippling its shield growth. He has no luxuries at all- the nearby incense is not even connected. One spear garrisons the city.

Embassy in Salamanca reveals an entertainer, no luxuries, no connection to other cities, two spears and an archer. He's probably whipped it to death to stave off Monty's jags.

Embassy in Persepolis reveals its location not far south of American territory, with a happy citizen linked up to incense not visible in the radius- X-man hasn't sold us any workers, and the results are visible. He has one spear there, and is building another- a settler is probably headed this way. No food bonuses at all, and a mined plain square- he hasn't been able to get irrigation from Abe's territory down to the city.

Embassies also reveal that Persia and Azteca are allied against the Iroquois, with an RoP deal. Everyone else is at peace with each other. Given that X-man is now buying tech at 4th civ prices, I empty his coffers of 80 gold with Writing, before Monty or Abe gets it. Abe has Mathematics, but it's not worth buying at 2nd civ prices. In the interests of getting something from the Iroquois before they die, as they appear to be gassed, I sell Writing to them for 45 gold.

After looking at the international situation, I send the extra hoplite from Utica to Carthage, and initiate mass barracks production. Research is swapped to Polytheism as I'll probably have to be at war for a while.

(IT): Abe has founded Philadelphia in a 'cultural push' position just south of Carthage. This insult will have to be dealt with. :hammer:

1725 BC (52):

1700 BC (53):

1675 BC (54): Workers start mining iron hill for later use.

(IT): Hiawatha wants an alliance vs. the Persians. Sorry, not yet. Abe, or whatever civ is foolish to attack me before then, is next.

1650 BC (55): Hippo founded, starting temple due to proximity to Aztec territory and Aztec settler pair right next to it. . Carthage builds 'rax, starts warrior for sword upgrade.

1625 BC (56): Lincoln demands tribute... we are almost ready, so I refuse him. He backs down!

1600 BC (57):

1575 BC (58): I notice an Aztec archer wandering around... hopefully Monty has the sense to wait to go to war with me until after he's done with Hiawatha.

(IT): The Most Advanced Nations of the World:
1. Germany
2. America
3. Persia
4. Iroquois
5. Aztecs
6. Carthage
7. Greece

1550 BC (59): America is only up by Mathematics, and Persia is not up on tech at all, so we're doing just fine- at Emperor rates, gold is often more valuable than beakers, especially when that gold buys pointy swords to extract tech. Germany must have its own island to expand on, or have extracted techs from Greece. Diplo check reveals Iros have one less city and the Aztecs have one more- not good news.

(IT): A Persian settler/spear pair moves south of Utica... if he overlaps, he might go immediately after Abe. No Iron for you here, X-man, no matter how well your big brothers in another SG may treat you there.

1525 BC (60): Carthage keeps building warriors every turn, and is MMed for shields to keep it happy. Persia has Horseback Riding.. and Abe has Mathematics... the price will go down soon, so I decide to wait- I need upgrade cash for those warriors. There is an Aztec archer in my territory, which is worrisome, but it is probably just passing through right now. Jags are fairly useless against hoplites, and my barracks-building program is almost complete. Besides, Hiawatha is still holding onto his capital. Carthage will expand in one turn to claim horses, and I have another source near Theveste.

The saves for turns 30-60 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis-Qsc-C2e-turns30to60.zip)

Borealis

Feb 17, 2003, 02:22 AM

Screenshot of my poor, backward empire, surrounded by aggressive AI:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC_C2e_bc1525.jpg

Borealis

Feb 17, 2003, 02:29 AM

Wow... after reading other people's reports, I think I will end up last this round, with only five cities and one of those freshly founded. No contacts with Mao or Bizzy, either. With the Aztecs taking all my good city spots, I figured switching over to war production might be a good idea... but I'll probably still be way behind later, unless the RNG favors me. And what's this self-researching I see people doing? Usually trying to do that on Emperor will get you clobbered with nothing to trade and no gold to buy it with... maybe having more AI in the mix changed things.

flexo

Feb 17, 2003, 05:19 AM

A quick look at posted screenshots show that we have all decided to locate our cities somewhat differently. In the end we appear to occupy somewhat the same area but not in order of creation.

Utica have been UP or to the LEFT. I wonder how much of an impact will this have on the game.

@Borealis:
And what's this self-researching I see people doing? Usually trying to do that on Emperor will get you clobbered with nothing to trade and no gold to buy it with... maybe having more AI in the mix changed things.

Well I research for as long as there is a point. If I can keep up with the AI (which has not proved to be much of a problem so far) I do it. If I notice I start to lag behind, that means I start war production.

I think the reason it has worked out quite well so far is that the AI civs have been quite small. All smaller than myself (as far as I know). Not to mention that in your little corner of the world there are only four AI, the others are off in the never never land of darkness (as far as I know). Not to mention they haven't started "gifting" techs to eachother just yet.

Charis

Feb 17, 2003, 08:01 AM

People are researching for themselves for a good reason, and not the one flexo gave...

Self-research is very important if you're pursuing a 'fastest victory' win condition, which is the stated post-qsc goal here. Self-research costs you cash, as it's more expensive than buying it. When you feel you can/will win the game despite wasting some cash, you can afford to research more techs yourself to speed up the tech pace. Going along with this will be tech gifting in some cases.

The other reason for self-research would be if you want a specific technology quickly for an immediate need, like most folks researching pottery to start, or Iron Working. Other than that, if you're doing research because you 'can', that's just throwing away money compared to buying it at 3rd civ prices. The most economical means is the following, when there are four decent civs including two who are very good at research. The first two will get a tech first (self-research) then second (pay-through-the-nose). Sometimes this happens for two techs. Then when a third civ gets one but not the other, you have a "2-fer" situation, and can buy the tech they don't have and sell it in trade for the one they do. On deity lvl, or on emperor with a weak start or weak economy, doing this is important to not lagging too far behind in tech. You basically stay around two techs 'behind' the leaders but pay a fraction of their cost for tech.

In this game the tech pace has been slow because our AI friends have been very slow to make contact with the other continent.

Charis

Karasu

Feb 17, 2003, 08:30 AM

Just to say that you guys are showing a skill in this game that I doubt I will ever reach... :worshp:

I am sorry not to have enough time to dedicate to this SG -even so, it is an extremely rewarding and instructive experience. I surely will make sure that I can participate more fully to the next one!

Arizona_Steve

Feb 17, 2003, 09:19 AM

(31) 2550BC
Carthage grows to size 2 again, and I ensure both citizens are working the mined grasslands to crank out the granary faster.

(32) 2510BC
Ultica is connected to our road network, and I move the worker onto the furs to get them hooked up.

(33) 2470BC
The Iroquois have acquired Iron Working. I will wait for someone else to get it before buying. I may be able to exchange this for Mysticism at some point.

(34) 2430BC
I buy another worker from the Aztecs for 35 gold.
No change in the tech situation.

(35) 2390BC
(36) 2350BC
Furs are connected to our cities. We are a happy people.

(37) 2310BC
(38) 2270BC
(39) 2230BC
Well, Iron working got sold around, but Persia was left out of the trading.
60 gold goes to the Iroquois for Mysticism.
Mysticism to Persia for their entire treasury of 28 gold.
40 gold + 3 gold per turn to America for Iron Working.
We have iron just outside Carthage's borders.
Granary completes at Carthage, 1 turn before it hit population 3. Settler started.

(40) 2190BC

Arizona_Steve - 2190BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_2190BC.zip)

(41) 2150BC
(42) 2110BC
I notice that Writing is being researched at 10%. I move the science slider down to 0%.
Lincoln demands 15 gold. I cave, but note that I'll need to start building military soon.

(43) 2070BC
(44) 2030BC
Carthage hits size 4.
Carthage builds settler, starts another.

(45) 1990BC
America has learned Writing, but has not traded it around yet.

(46) 1950BC
Two additional workers are bought from the Iroquois for 20 gold + 2 gold / turn.

(47) 1910BC
Ultica completes it's barracks and starts one of those Spartan Hopelite thingys.

(48) 1870BC
Leptis Magna is founded next to the iron. A warrior is ordered.
Iron is connected to our empire. This also connects Leptis Magna to the network, making it another happy city.
America and the Iroquois both have writing. Persia STILL does not have Iron working. They must've got a classic Epic 14 dud start (T).
I switch Ultica to temple to get a couple of useful squares (including the horses) into play.

(49) 1830BC
I note now that all four civs (including Persia) have both Writing and Horseback Riding. My guess is that Persia researched it then traded it round to get to tech parity.
I buy writing from America for 29 gold + 5/turn. This improves Lincoln's mood from Annoyed to Cautious.
An exploring warrior gets beaten ON THE MOUNTAINS by a barbarian warrior.

(50) 1790BC
I switch Leptis Magna over to a granary as it's warrior was auto-changed to a swordsman and will take far too long to complete. It'll make a good settler/worker factory, and I will build and send a unit from Carthage once the settler there completes.

Arizona_Steve - 1790BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_1790BC.zip)

(51) 1750BC
I switch Carthage to max shields and start an archer, as Leptis Magna desperately needs a defender.

(52) 1725BC
Xerxes comes demanding 8 gold. With only 3 military units in our empire, I cave.

(53) 1700BC
Theveste founded to get the horses inside our borders, and to eventually pull in the other two ivory. With a prebuilt road, it is already connected to our empire. I start it on an archer.
America builds an embassy in our capital. They also found Philadelpha just where I wanted to put a city.

(54) 1675BC
Carthage builds an archer, starts a settler. The archer will be sent to Leptis Magna.

(55) 1650BC
(56) 1625BC
A barbarian warrior threatens one of our workers. Fortunately he can be covered by our archer.

(57) 1600BC
The barbarian warrior bypasses our archer and moves towards a second worker. He is promptly put to death.

(58) 1575BC
(59) 1550BC
I send the settler that just popped out of Carthage to snag a second source of horses. He is accompanied by the defending warrior (leaving Carthage temporarily empty), as I believe there's a barbarian camp nearby.
Leptis Magna finally has a fortified defender.
America and the Aztecs have Philosophy.
I buy Philosophy from America for 29 gold + 4/turn.
I then swap Philosophy with Persia for Horseback Riding.
I then sell Philosophy to the Iroquois for 37 gold (I would prefer that I got the money instead of someone else).
The Iroquois then proceed to demand 20 gold back. The cheek of it!

(60) 1525BC

Arizona_Steve - 1525BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_1525BC.zip)

meldor

Feb 17, 2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Charis
People are researching for themselves for a good reason, and not the one flexo gave...

Self-research is very important if you're pursuing a 'fastest victory' win condition, which is the stated post-qsc goal here. Self-research costs you cash, as it's more expensive than buying it. When you feel you can/will win the game despite wasting some cash, you can afford to research more techs yourself to speed up the tech pace. Going along with this will be tech gifting in some cases.

The other reason for self-research would be if you want a specific technology quickly for an immediate need, like most folks researching pottery to start, or Iron Working. Other than that, if you're doing research because you 'can', that's just throwing away money compared to buying it at 3rd civ prices. The most economical means is the following, when there are four decent civs including two who are very good at research. The first two will get a tech first (self-research) then second (pay-through-the-nose). Sometimes this happens for two techs. Then when a third civ gets one but not the other, you have a "2-fer" situation, and can buy the tech they don't have and sell it in trade for the one they do. On deity lvl, or on emperor with a weak start or weak economy, doing this is important to not lagging too far behind in tech. You basically stay around two techs 'behind' the leaders but pay a fraction of their cost for tech.

In this game the tech pace has been slow because our AI friends have been very slow to make contact with the other continent.

Charis
Man, I actually research for two differnt reasons than even these......I research to 1) SLOW the tech pace down, especially if I am going for conquest or domination and 2) it keeps money out of the AI's hands. Money I spend on research goes into the air, it doesn't finance the AI to do farther research.
This works only in the first age when there are many pathes down which to travel. Once you enter the second age, there are only two pathes and you have most likely gone to a non-depotic government. You must switch your strat at that point.

Basically, what I do is research what I believe the AI will go for next (actually this is pretty predictable). Most of the AI will research one or two techs at worst. Pick the one that will be researched by the AI that is iin the tech lead or is scientific. These will usually be the same. You will be several turns behind the AI as you are not pumping all that you can into the research. Once the first two AI's get the tech, you can then purchase it from them for very little cash. For instance, in my game I purchased several techs in the 20-40 gold range and these were not first tier techs. You can then turn around and get your money back and more by selling this tech to the slower AIs. You can also use this to get the same 2-for-1 deals when the AIs research down tow differnt pathes. This strat slows down the pace of research because I am not researching things the AI isn't. This gives me more time to play the farmers gambit, and extends the life of the units you can purchase cheaper at those lower techs.

However, I will admit that this strat is probably no one that will win this contest, as too much is placed on the fact that you have more tech and not what your tech level is in relation to your neighbor. It also slows down contact as the AI does not really research writing as early as a human will (as they are not interested in 2-for-1 deals). The slower contact will also slow the tech pace and hurt the score of my game. If we were going for space launch, I would agree that a faster tech pace would be the optimum way to proceed.

More than one way to a skinny cat.....er, something like that....

Charis

Feb 17, 2003, 10:28 AM

Good point Meldor. If you can predict what the AI will go for, or go slow enough they get there first anyway, that's a good one. As for speed of the game, another good point. You probably want to speed up the research some if Navigation is *required* to go get the other continent, *if* you can wipe out your own continent with Knights (or Swords :hammer: ) OTOH if you don't need that to get across, slowing the tech race is better -- the thing to avoid is anyone ever getting rifles, or if you're really doing well, slowing the pace that foes get gunpowder, so your Knights do well longer.

The thing to note about your research suggestion is that you *want* to get beat to the tech you're researching. For most games/folks, seeing the turn count drop just as your about to get to a tech is painful, as you lose the chance to sell it for a lot of cash. On this difficulty and map, none of the AI seem to have much cash anyway :P

Charis

meldor

Feb 17, 2003, 02:10 PM

As I said, it really only works in the first age. There are six pathes to go up the tree to start. Once you get to the Middle Age there really are only two pathes. It make this strat less of a good thing as the AI will follow both pathes and there is little you can do to slow this down. The research you add at this level doesn't do much for you. You are also more likely to need all the money you can to keep things upgraded as needed and to rush all of the buildings that suddenly appear.

AS with all strats, this one needs to be taken with a grain of salt. If you are on a small island map or a continent map and you are on the side with the fewer AI contacts, then you need to hasten research so you can gain contact before you are too far behind.

I actually have come to were I like to steal techs later on. It costs about the same amount of money, and the money doesn't go to the last person you want to enrich. It keeps a big AI from getting bigger, and you have the tech.....of course, you may have to pay the hard way if you get caught and they declare. That assumes of course you have the money on hand, which at deity can present some problems. At this level, unless you have a really bad start (like we had in our last SG, poor Korea) you should have cash problems. Some of us even have to make up strange variations just to keep it interesting. :eek: :lol:

And, yes, my intention is to take out at least the Aztecs with the sword. I would like to take out two but I may run out of time as I expanded more than I thought I would be able to. America's stagnation really helped the farmers gambit, but left less time for pointy stick expansion.

Borealis

Feb 17, 2003, 05:26 PM

Hmmm... in my game, the Aztecs are the strongest, having conducted a successful war against the Iroquois already- Hiawatha isn't eliminated yet, but is reduced to his much-whipped capital.

As far as the RBE 'seed corn' policy, this game was an excellent demonstration of why we have it... America has incense in its capital's cultural radius, and plains, but has done nothing with either of them and can so only build a settler with one shield. X-man, who should have been isolated, easy meat for Abe, is remaining competitive due to not selling any workers.

flexo

Feb 18, 2003, 07:10 AM

Well all I can say is that I don't look prime for a domination victory in the next (and last turn). Report 3 is ready but I'm waiting for the stats of round 2 before publishing that (I have learned my lesson).

There have really been no fighting in the two first turns. None that I know of at least. Could have happend something in the darkness but nothing in my view (or by me).

cracker

Feb 19, 2003, 04:17 PM

Here is the data summary table for all games up to 1525bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC_C2table1525bc.gif

Hotrod has jumped out into the lead on the strength of a lucky contact surge getting contact with the other continent without the benefit of galleys and this also aids in his ability to trade and research techs even more favorably.

Three the three top Emperor players so far (flexo, Hotrod, Justus) are having very strong games that are taking different paths to the top of the rnaking.

Zenga is the strongest technology player in the regent group with Nightfang and Skyfish close behind but in general the Regent group is legging behind the Emperor group in technology development even though their research is cheaper. Does any one have a clearer understanding of why this would be so??

We can begin to see the purpose of the Charis gambit in this game because he has the largers and most power single city and is only a few turns away from completing the Pyramids.

We are beginning to reach the top-out of the early positioning phase so we will see some radically shifts in power position in the coming turns as the different player begin to pursue their different paths to domination. One thing that does not clearly appear in the data is that in general the Regent worlds have fewer total cities in place across all civilizations and in general represent a much weaker combined progress by all the players (AI+Human) towards the objectives of civilizing the world in some way.

Justus II

Feb 19, 2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by cracker

Zenga is the strongest technology player in the regent group with Nightfang and Skyfish close behind but in general the Regent group is legging behind the Emperor group in technology development even though their research is cheaper. Does any one have a clearer understanding of why this would be so??
[/B]

I think the reason is at least partly due to what you mentioned in the last paragraph, the AI are not as developed in the Regent game, and therefore are not able to trade techs as well. I know that all of my techs have been as the result of trades, except the first (Pottery), and then Mathematics, which I researched at 40 turns specifically for trading purposes. However, if the AI didn't have all the other techs, I wouldn't be able to make that kind of progress. That has continued to hold true for the next 30, BTW, I again used one tech to trade for multiple from the AI.

hotrod0823

Feb 19, 2003, 07:01 PM

More on Research:

It appear that going Math vs. Writing will grab more bang for the buck. Flexo and Justus were the only 2 go for Math instead of Writing or Iron Working. By using Math each was able to grab writing from the AI and get a jump start on Currency in Flexo's case and Polytheism for Justus.

Has the questioned been answered though? Yes Math will improve the QSC score but as Meldor pointed out the goal is Domination and by not researching ahead of the AI you effectively slow the progress of the research and will allow your army to grow and use your archers and horseys vs spears instead of pikes. Meldor may be behind in Tech points but realitive to the AI in his game may be in exactly the right tech position to effectively wage war.

Hotrod

meldor

Feb 19, 2003, 08:53 PM

sorry for the short report but the deadline was pretty quick this time. My luck, or lack of it has continues as I have only been able to buy two slaves the whole game.

It was a peaceful builder turns and we are finally poised to strike.....

1275 BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc1275.zip)
1025 BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc1025.zip)
775 BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc775.zip)

Justus II

Feb 19, 2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by hotrod0823
More on Research:

It appear that going Math vs. Writing will grab more bang for the buck. Flexo and Justus were the only 2 go for Math instead of Writing or Iron Working. By using Math each was able to grab writing from the AI and get a jump start on Currency in Flexo's case and Polytheism for Justus.

Has the questioned been answered though? Yes Math will improve the QSC score but as Meldor pointed out the goal is Domination and by not researching ahead of the AI you effectively slow the progress of the research and will allow your army to grow and use your archers and horseys vs spears instead of pikes. Meldor may be behind in Tech points but realitive to the AI in his game may be in exactly the right tech position to effectively wage war.

Hotrod

I would say it is a matter of timing. I know in my case, I have been able to eliminate America, and on the verge of eliminating Persia (I still have to submit my turns), using swords vs. spears. I am not worried about the tech pace, because I knew I would be done with them well before feudalism, and besides, I knew they didn't have Iron available. My goal now is to get to Chivalry as quickly as possible, to use knights and overrun the rest of the continent. The best way to do that is a combination of research and trading to get the AI to fill out the rest of the ancient age techs for me.

As someone said earlier, the ancient age has multiple, divergent branches, and researching down each of them takes a lot of time. In effect, I have researched two and gotten the rest traded to me. The real 'tech race' will be if I can get Chivalry before the Aztecs and Iroquois get Feudalism, it is possible but tricky. (You may see my plan in the final set of turns). Odds are it will be close, but as slow as the AI is about upgrading units, I will still have a window of advantage, during which I usually try to take out their iron supplies. By slowing down the pace, it would be swords vs. spears again, but they move slower, so I don't think its an advantage.

Like I said it depends on the situation, and on the UUs involved, if I was the Persians, or the Iroquois, or someone else with a great offensive ancient UU (Celts) I might very well drag out the ancient age, but I look at the Spartan Hoplite as basically an improved Pikeman, thats available earlier, not as helpful on offense.

flexo

Feb 20, 2003, 12:53 AM

saves #3 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo-qsc-q2e-report-3.zip)

FLEXO QSC Q2E REPORT 3

** THIRD REPORT START **

1500 bc 1
Utica worker cuts forest for a few turns of work on hoplite. Worker at Theveste completes mine, moving down. Aztech city Teotihuacan culture expands! must build some more culture or i'll be in flip-o-rama land.

1475 bc 2
Settler done.

1450 bc 3
Leptis Minor has a riot.

1425 bc 4
Hippo builds a hoplite. Utica builds Hoplite, send it to Leptis Magna.

1400 bc 5
nothing ...

1375 bc 6
nothing ... just movement. looks like the americans think they can just move a warrior and settler thru my land to the free spot beyond Magna. I'll let them waste there time cause i'll beat them to the spot.

1350 bc 7
settler in position for next city.

1325 bc 8
Found Rusicade. Carthage settler done. Moving it to spot americans want. Running out of "free" land to settle. Time to start infrastructure.

1300 bc 9
move move move

1275 bc A
Theveste builds hoplite (temple next). Americans doesn't appear to be going in the direction I suspect. Think they are going beyond the Aztecs then.

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc1275.sav **

1250 bc 1
Sci > 90% currency in 1t.

1225 bc 2
Law in 7t (sci 90%). "last" settler in place. Utica changes que to temple.

Trade:
[Ame] Currency > Map making, World map, 44 gp.

the others are weak! I should crush them! Time to build a force to put the fear of god in them. Will start as soon as I have a temple and barrack in Carthage.

1200 bc 3
Found Oea. Aztecs are working on that Colossus thing to.

1175 bc 4
Hippo reaches pop 4, change to settler and rush it.

1150 bc 5
moving settler, I want to place it next to the aztec mine. Utica > change que back to sparta for defence of the new city.

1125 bc 6
looks like Lincon has the same plan, but thanks to my roads i'll get there before he does.

1100 bc 7
wood is chopped by Leptis Minor creates a Hoplite. have to move some people around in the capital to prevent riot.

1075 bc 8
settler and protection hoplite moves into position. code of law done, philosophy next. carthage temple built. glory glory halleluja!

1050 bc 9
Colossus is built in Persepolis (he starts great lighthouse). Found Hadrumetum ... ahh free iron :)

1025 bc A
Aztecs start construction of the great wall.

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc1025.sav **

1000 bc 1
Riot in Carthage, crap! Worker (american) connects horses by Sabratha.

0975 bc 2
Sci > 80% Polytheism in 8t. The Aztecs wants it all for Construction so no deal there.

0950 bc 3
St. Augustine completes his Largest nations list:
1. Carthaginians : 2. Chinese : 3. Germans : 4. Iroquois : 5. Aztecs : 6. Persians : 7. Greeks : 8. Americans.
Sabarath builds a Hoplite.

0925 bc 4
Americans are building pyramids. Moving my troops.

0900 bc 5
Barrack built in carthage. Upgrade a warrior to swordman. Time to build my army of Spartans to divide and conqure.

0875 bc 6
watered a square near Theveste. Moving to mine the iron near Carthage.

0850 bc 7
Iroqouis build the oracle in Salamanca, everyone changes to Pyramids.

0825 bc 8
Rusicade|Carthage builds hoplites.

0800 bc 9
Utica builds Hoplite. Sci > 10%

0775 bc A
America looks like a tasty target, no iron, four cities, both incense and spice.

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc0775.sav **
** THIRD REPORT COMPLETE **

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo_QSC_C2e_bc0775.jpeg

The situation at 0775BC. Me having a looksie at my first target.

flexo

Feb 20, 2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by hotrod0823
[B]More on Research:

It appear that going Math vs. Writing will grab more bang for the buck. Flexo and Justus were the only 2 go for Math instead of Writing or Iron Working. By using Math each was able to grab writing from the AI and get a jump start on Currency in Flexo's case and Polytheism for Justus.

Actually I had to research writing myself. But I suspect the AI had started to since I manged to figure it out quite quickly.

flexo

Feb 20, 2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Justus II

Like I said it depends on the situation, and on the UUs involved, if I was the Persians, or the Iroquois, or someone else with a great offensive ancient UU (Celts) I might very well drag out the ancient age, but I look at the Spartan Hoplite as basically an improved Pikeman, thats available earlier, not as helpful on offense.

I have a feeling this might have been my undoing. I looked at the spartans and saw an all in one troop. Both good on offence and defense. There was a shield difference between the good troops (swordman, horseman, spartan) at the time. But not enough of a difference so they all took two or was it three turns to build in Carthage.

I think it might have been wiser of me to build a large army of swordmen/horsemen instead. But I tried another route. This might lead to my fall from the top 3.

Charis

Feb 20, 2003, 02:01 AM

Charis' Timeline 3 for Turns through 70, 80, and 90

[61] -1500 : Finish Rax at Utica, start Hoplite.
[62]..[65] : Exploring and waiting. Things are quiet with two towns.
[66] -1375 : Aztecs and Iro now have Map Making too. Persia still lacks it.
Our Hoplite at home heads out to stalk a barbarian. Only a river
prevents our worker from having to scurry immediately. He continues
out to hit the camp. If the AI had any sense, they would attack Carthage NOW
[67] -1350 : Quietly, without fanfare, we complete the Pyramids in Carthage. The question
is: what next - Settler, Hoplite, or Oracle?! We make an odd choice, the latter.
Our hoplite clears the east camp. Painfully, I *see* Corinth across the sea!
But our sightless AI friends have not made contact!
[70] -1275 : Yet more quietness. Utica is at 6spt, working on husky units. *SAVE*

[72] -1225 : Just as our Hop gets home, another camp shows up. All but Iro now have Code
of Laws. We get that from X-man for WM+7gpt, trade it and 2gpt to Iro for MM.
If we end up with Great Lib this is wasteful, but will accelearte tech pace.
It also doesn't hurt relations.
[73] -1200 : Before I can get there, a jaggie clears the camp. Now all but Aztecs have
Philosophy. That one I'll wait on.
(IBT) Persia gets uppity. They demand TM+45g. TM is silly, I just sold them
WM. Unfortunately the have a vet warr next to two workers. I pay insurance :P
[74] -1175 : We buy WM's except from Abe who won't sell. He must be sailing. Utica -> Sword.
These fools STILL can't see Greece.
[79] -1150 : Everyone has Math but Abe. It's a 2-fer, but I pass, with loftier goals.
[80] -1025 : Not much happening. Literature due next turn.

[81] -1000 : Literature due next turn, we're first there. Swap from Oracle to the
Great Library!? Ah, that's our plan. Well, part of it. GL due in 9. We shut off research.
[85] -900 : Our scouts are getting back home. A warr upgrades to a sword (reg)
Our workers start building roads to OTHER civ's cities :P
(IBT) Athens completes the Oracle. It's a good thing we got Literature just in time!!
Perseopolis insta-completes the Colossus. Others cascade to the Lighthouse.
[88] -825 : Incredulous they STILL don't see Greece, I make an embassy with Iros, in case
by some oddness that would matter for communications due to some bug. But no, they're
just clueless explorers. If Allgheny and Corinth would each build a temple their
borders would touch! My warrior could be there in 14 turns, but would get booted.
Persia can sell horses for ivory if I throw in 2gpt. I do that and switch a sword
due in 1 in Utica to a horseman. If Abe goes to war that deal will fall, but it's
a pure 'per turn' one.
[89] With GL due next turn I can sell Literature. Or so I thought. JUST now Persia starts
Great Library and all but Abe have the tech, and America is broke. Sloppy...
I sell it for his map.
[90] -775 : Great Library in Carthage. We're on track for a 20K win. OOops! Wait,
we're trying to dominate, right?! :P I'll likely hit bottom score at turn 90.

Turn 70 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc1275.sav)
Turn 80 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc1025.sav)
Turn 90 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc0775.sav)

Charis

Karasu

Feb 20, 2003, 02:14 AM

Sorry, folks.
I have been lost in hyperspace for the last three days and could not even touch my computer, so I missed the deadline.

I'll see if I can catch up for the last one.

flexo

Feb 20, 2003, 03:15 AM

@Charis.
I had that contact problem to if you see my small screenshot. I see a city on the other side by the Iroquis. But they are just to daft to send a boat or troop there to actaually make contact. Sailing there myself isn't an option (I don't even have any galleys)

@Justus2
What is up with your population? Are you slipping them viagra or something? They must be at it like bunnies, you are about 10 pop ahead of everyone.

ok .. some round #2 analyzing ...

Noone has any new workers. What happend to the slaves? Did you all decide to set them free or did they make the ultimate sacrifice for your glory?

We can see that certain players are amassing large numbers of warriors and gold for the swordman upgrade (mainly JustusII).

Everyone had built atleast on barrack (karasus and meldor built 2/3) except myself who hadn't gotten around to that just yet.

Everyone (except Charis) doubled, trippled or more their number of towns.

The techiest of us all appears to be Hotrod, myself & justusii

Half the players have constructed Spartan Hoplites, not a single horseman even thou everyone has horseback riding (except borealis and meldor). I would have expected more of them on the map by now.

Justus II

Feb 20, 2003, 07:42 AM

I will be posting my next set of turns later this morning, but I think that will answer Flexo's question. I have a LOT more slaves, let's just say the swordsman upgrade paid for itself! ;)
My population increases have mainly been from irrigating all the floodplains, and using Carthage to crank out settlers.
@Charis: a 2cc? Is that a new twist? But 2 wonders in the same 30 turn block is quite impressive, especially without a GA.

hotrod0823

Feb 20, 2003, 08:18 AM

I have played to 775 and will post later tonight.

Justus II

Feb 20, 2003, 08:41 AM

This was a very busy set of turns, a lot going on. About half-way through I started losing track of which worker was doing what, I had a lot more than I usually do this early. I think I still covered all of the major projects, though. Also, some of this might be considered “Spoiler” info, since it involves things happening on the other continent, so if you haven’t gotten that far yet, try not to let it influence your play.

Seventh Set of 10 turns
1500 Nothing produced, but I switched Theveste to Spartan, and Rusicade (as a prebuild, I was hoping to get map-making when I finished Polytheism, and I wanted to have a galley ready to go). I also cracked the whip to get the barracks done in Sabratha. My warrior from Sabratha attacked and killed the barb. Slave1 started a road to connect Sabratha, S3 moved NW to irrigate another floodplain N of Leptis Minor. Now that the road is connected with the Aztecs, I trade Ivory and 80g for Spices. There are two persian settler pairs near Hippo, and an American. Witht the extra luxury, I adjust taxes to 2.8.0, Polytheism in 4, breaking even.
1475 Utica finishes Warrior, Sabratha completes the Barracks. Both continue building warriors. I send my western warrior back to the coast, in case we get any ‘visitors’ from the other continent. Worker1 finishes the road in the forest, moves to the iron N of Carthage. Worker2 moves S, will be building a road to Oea through the jungle. Slave2 moves to join Slave4 in cutting the forest at the southern fur. Slave3 starts irrigating, Slave5 finishes the mine, starts a road 2SW of Sabratha.
1450 Carthage finishes a Settler, Leptis Magna finishes a Worker, both start on Spartans. The settler heads NW, toward the coast near Theveste. The warrior from Sabratha moves N, spots the barb camp. Work1 starts to mine the iron (no road yet), Wk2 starts the jungle road, and our new worker, Wk3, moves S/SW from Leptis Magna. I adjust science down to 70%, making 2pt.
1425 Utica cranks out another vet warrior. My warrior from Sabratha is killed attacking the barb camp! L I pull another warrior from Sabratha to head N, and my new warrior from Utica is also headed that way. Slave1 finishes road, moves into Sabratha.
1400 Worker3 starts to irrigate SW of the horse. Sl1 moves NE, Sl5 moves S to join Wk2 in the jungle. We have learned the secrets of Polytheism. I start on Monarchy, done in 21 turns at 80%. No one has any techs to trade yet, so I hold on to it.
1375 Utica completes warrior. Hadrumetum is founded 2E of Theveste, on a hill on the coast, and starts on a Temple. Sl1 starts building a road on the bonus NE of Sabratha, and Sl3 finishes the irrigation, starts a road.
1350 Carthage finishes a Spartan, starts on a temple. Sabratha finishes a vet warrior. Sl2 and Sl4 finish cutting the forest on the fur at Hippo, and with a crack of the whip Hippo will now finish it’s temple next turn. My warrior kills the barb camp, but no promotion. Work2 finishes the jungle road, moves S to the grassland. Wk3 finishes irrigation, starts road. Sl2+Sl4 start a road on the fur. Iroquois, Aztec have Map Reading, which is tempting, so I can get a galley going, but I decide to hold out a couple turns, I really want to get at least 2 techs for Polytheism.
1325 Utica gets a warrior, Hippo finishes the temple, starts on a Spartan. I whip Leptis Minor to rush their temple, which should expand to get the iron. Work3 finishes a road, moves SW.
1300 Leptis Minor gets it’s temple, starts on a Spartan. Several roads are finished, including connecting the 2nd fur. Most workers/slaves are mining the tiles they are in, I send Sl3 E to road the 3rd ivory. I check the AI, Aztecs now have Literature, Iroquois don’t! Time for some dealing. A quick check shows the Americans also have both, and all 3 have some gold, but the Persians have no tech or money. I start by trading Poly to the Aztecs for Literature, their world map, and all 49 gold. Then I turn to the Iroquois, and trady Poly and Lit for Map Making, world map, and 58 gold. The Americans give me wm plus all 45 of their gold for Poly, and since I feel sorry for the poor Persians, I sell them Literature for their map. Lincoln moves to cautious, but Xerxes doesn’t appreciate it, he is still annoyed. I can’t trade the fur with anyone but the Aztecs, and they don’t have anything left to give, so I wait, I figure I can use it when it comes time to renegotiate the spice contract. I switch Rusicade to galley, and rush it to be done next turn.
1275 Utica completes warrior, Theveste finishes Spartan, Rusicade gets Galley, and Oae completes a worker. The galley, with a warrior, heads west along the coast. Work1 finishes mining the iron, starts a road, it is almost time to get aggressive. Wk2+sl5 start to mine SE of Oae, Wk3 starts to irrigate 2SW of horses, Sl2/Sl4 are mining the fur.
End of seventh set of ten turns: I now have 4 workers plus 5 slaves, 15 warriors, 2 spartans and a galley, and a total of 10 cities. Monarchy is 15 turns away. I have 463 gold, breaking even at 2.8.0, and a score of 315. The Iroquois are second with 223, 0g, 5 cities, polite. Aztecs are still polite, 211, 0g, 5 cities. America is now cautious, 0g, 4 cities, and 181 pts. Persia is annoyed, 0g, 3 cities, and 166 pts.

Eighth Set of 10 turns
1250 Worker4, from Oea, starts cutting the forest to the S. Sl3 starts a road on the 3rd Ivory.
1225 Utica and Sabratha finish warriors. Wk3 starts a mine S/SW of Rusicade.
1200 Carthage finishes a Temple, starts on a Library. Leptis Magna finishes a Spartan, starts on a library. The Iron is connected, I upgrade 10 warriors (9 vet) for 400g. Wk2/sl5 move N to clear jungle NE of Oea. Wk1 moves N towards Theveste. Sl2/Sl4 finish mining the fur, split up to work the bonus tiles S and W of Hippo. (This is where I started to lose track of the workers).
1175 Utica kicks out one last warrior, who gets upgraded. My two stacks of swordsmen move out from Utica and Sabratha toward Oea. My galley has reached the straits, I land a warrior on the opposite shore, pick up my sentry warrior after sinking a barb galley. I can see a barb camp, and Greek borders, but no contact yet.
1150 Sabratha finishes its last warrior, starts on spartans. My galley makes contact with Greece. They are backward in tech. Alex is cautious, has 4 cities, 9 gold, has access to wine, but lacks Math, Lit, MM, HBR, and Poly. I start by offering Math, I get contact with the Germans, wm, and 9g. Germany is worse off, annoyed, only 3 cities, 5g, and doesn’t even have alphabet. I trade Alphabet and Poly for contact with China, wm, and 5g. Mao is the big dog on this continent, he is cautious, has 9 cities, 77g, access to wine and dyes, but lacks math, lit, and poly. I trade Math for his wm and 77g. I wish I had traded all math, or all poly, but I didn’t know germany couldn’t take math until it was too late. Anyway, I have contact with everyone and all their maps, but I made sure NOT to trade my map or any contacts with my continent, I should be able to broker for a while. I am still leading in score, with 357, China 271, Iroq. 240, Aztec 229, Amer. 192, Germ. 189, Persia 172, and Greece 163. Looking at the map, there are some unclaimed luxuries on the other continent, I think I will want an outpost city over there soon. There is also some unexplored land S of Germany. I switch Leptis Magna to a settler, and Rusicade to a galley (I can whip it in 5 turns, just in time for the settler). Persia starts the Great Library.
1125 Warrior on the new continent destroys a barb camp, 25g. Work1 finishes irigating plain SW of Theveste, moves NE. Sl1 starts building a road on horses S of Sabratha. I check and China and the Aztecs have Philosophy, I thought about trading the furs to Aztec for it, but China doesn’t have literature, so I trade with Mao, plus his wm. Persian and American settlers are still roaming around my lands, I kick the Persians out, but I have a warrior and a sword ‘escorting’ the americans, N of Sabratha.
1100 WAR! I declare war on Lincoln, my warrior takes out his warrior, turning the settler into two slaves. 9 Swordsmen cross the border S of Oea, adjacent to New York. Work3 finishes a road near Rusicade.
1075 Persians start on the Oracle, finish the Colossus in Perseopolis (Good, I was planning on heading that way after the Americans anyway). Carthage finishes Library, starts on a settler, Theveste and Hippo finish Spartans. The battle of New York: first vet sword kills the first spearman, losing 1hp, second vet repeats, and New York is mine! I install a new governor, start on a temple. Meanwhile, some of my other swords attack 3 other warriors who were headed to the defense, killing all three, 2 vets lose 1hp each, no promotions L. I also move a warrior from Hippo S to a mountain to keep an eye on Boston. Several slaves finish mines, I send one S to NY to start building roads.
1050 Utica finishes Spartan, heads S toward Hippo (I’ll need him later). Our exploring galley spots land SW of Greece, I land my warrior, and it is Slave Island! A decent size island of unclaimed land, but I see at least 3 barbarian workers standing around?!? This is interesting! I rest wounded swords, crush the resistance in NY, and head to Washington.
1025 Leptis Magna finishes settler, and I rush the galley in Rusicade. I also move the Spartan from Leptis with the settler to Rusicade. Another warrior gets upgraded at Sabratha. Knowing I am getting ready for a revolution, I mm most of my cities to either complete their production in 3 turns, or mm for growth. I establish an embassy in China for 37g, Beijing is working on Pyramids in 56 turns, (5 shield/tn), have iron, horse, 2 luxuries, but no buildings. I drop my science to 5.5.0, still get Monarchy in 3, +10gpt. My swordsmen are moving to Washington.
End of eighth set of ten turns: I have a settler, 4 workers plus 7 slaves, and 12 swords, 6 warriors, and 6 Spartans, a galley, and a total of 11 cities. My score is 397. China is second with 299, 9 cities, polite. Iroquois have 258, 6 cities, polite. Aztecs 247, 6 cities, polite. Americans 200, 3 cities, at war (furious). Germany 197, 3 cities, annoyed. Persia 178, 3 cities, annoyed. Greece 174, 4 cities, polite.

Justus II

Feb 20, 2003, 08:42 AM

Sorry, this stretched into two posts.

Ninth Set of 10 turns
1000 Carthage builds settler, starts on the Pyramids. Settler moves to NE corner of our continent. 2 vet swords take on warriors NE of Washington, one loses 1hp but becomes Elite. Galley2 sets sail with a settler and spartan. Slave starts road on gold mountain. Warrior on new continent continues moving toward the dye on the north coast, warrior on Slave Island captures a slave, sees 2 more and some iron. The first galley continues west, finda another small island. Wk+Sl start cutting forest S of Oea. Spice deal with Aztecs expires, I trade Ivory and Fur for Spice and wm.
975 Jungle cleared near Rusicade. I move up a total of 7 vet swords adjacent to Washington. Between turns, an archer comes out and kills a sword, losing 2 hp.
950 Monarchy completed, start on Currency, at 40. I hold off on the revolution. Leptis Minor and Sabratha each complete spartans. On the new continent, I spot a Chinese settler with an archer, moving right to my planned city spot. Warrior on Slave Island gets another one, uses them to continue exploring. The Battle of Washington: First vet takes on a spear, -2hp but wins. Second vet kills the spear and becomes elite. Third vet dies trying against another spear, fourth vet defeats spear#3, and a fifth kills spear#4, winning the city. I get 2 slaves, move them NE to work on a road. I have to starve the city down, since it is not connected to any luxuries, both citizens unhappy (and one resistor, who don’t look too happy either). Another sword finishes the archer, and I move another into Washington. Now that I have taken America’s cultural center, I can afford the anarchy, so I start to revolt. I am trying to time this so I can have my spartans at Boston and trigger my golden age as soon as the anarchy is over.
925 One of my Slave Island workers spots a hut! Carthage needs an entertainer, as population grows even in anarchy. Not much else happens, wounded swords rest, a couple more move into Washington to quell resistor.
900 The hut is deserted, no big deal. I capture another worker. China has built their city where I was going to sent my settler, now I am thinking of settling on Slave Island, so I send galley along the south coast. Swords start moving to Boston, vet Spartan moves SE of Hippo, and a regular spartan with him, toward Boston.
875 Ugrade another warrior, settler builds Cadiz at NE corner. Now it dawns on me that if I use a slave to create a colony on the incense, it will also connect Washington to the road network (doh!), so I do.
850 An American archer tries to slip out of Boston, and my elite sword picks him off.
825 The anarchy is ended, Hannebeline is proclaimed Queen of the Carthaginians. It is time to show these worthless Americans what the Spartans are made of. First, my warrior from the mountain attacks Boston, to soften a spear, he dies after inflicting 1hp. Then a vet sword attacks his fresh spear, and is killed, the spear is promoted. Another sword kills the vet spear. First Spartan attacks wounded spearman, but is killed, inflicting 2hp but promoting him to vet. He now has an archer defending, and my vet Spartan attacks, killing him and triggering the Golden Age of Carthage. My last sword goes for the kill on the crippled spearman, and dies, leaving him with an Elite L. Boston still holds out. With the GA, it is time to manage my cities. I need gold to rush tmeples etc. in my new cities, so I shift science down to 20%, Currency is now in 20 turns, but I am making 65gpt. Theveste and both Leptis’ switch to Libraries, Rusicade starts a temple. Pyramids will be done in 16 J!
800 Hadrumetum finishes a Spartan. The final assault on Boston is down to the wire. My vet sword is killed, but costs his elite spear 3hp, then my vet Spartan attacks, loses 2hp but prevails, and Boston is destroyed. Hmm, I am going to need settlers, I switch both Leptis’ to settler, will be done in 3 turns. America has only Philadelphia left, so I check to see what they can offer: Code of Laws and Construction. Good techs, but I’m sure Lincoln didn’t research them himself, so I check around to see who has what. Only Iroqouis have both, Aztecs and China have CoL, and Persia has Construction. China also has 52g, no one else has more than 10. I don’t want to give up a lot for them, if I can avoid it. The Iroqouis have built a city on the W tip, and the border already is touching the other continent. It is only a matter of time before some Greek wanders up to it and makes contact, so I might as well start trading them in while I can. I don’t want to trade my map, though, since it would reveal the location of my islands! I start with Persia, since they were somewhat backwards, and trade them Philosophy, Map Making, and contact with China for Construction. Then I traded the Aztecs contact with Greece and China for Code of Laws. Since China had gold, I went there next, and gave them contact with the Iroquois for 50g+wm. I gave the Iroquois contact with the Greeks for wm+4g. Finally, I noticed my western neighbors were both annoyed, so I gave the Aztecs and the Iroquois contact with the Germans as a gift, it improved the Aztecs to cautious. I switched New York, Theveste, Hippo, Rusicade, Hadrumetum, and Cadiz to courthouses, although some of them may change.
775 Since I got the techs I wanted, I decide to finish Lincoln off. My elite sword takes out his first spear, a vet takes out his second, losing 3hp, and another vet kills his last archer, and Philadelphia is destroyed. I will definitely need more settlers. I start a couple of remaining swords south, I have 6 in the vicinity, and another coming, plus a couple Spartans. It won’t be long before I pay Xerxes a visit. I have changed my mind again, and want to settle a city on the 2nd continent after all. Slave Island has no luxuries, and the AI are pathetic at building harbors when I want to trade, so I decide to build a trading city on the south coast, between Greece and Germany, and use the slaves to build roads to connect to them so I can trade. Because the straits are only one tile wide, all coast, I won’t even need Astronomy to connect, just rush a harbor in my new city (and complete one at home). My new city can then build a settler to go back to Slave Island and start populating it. I send my first galley back to the island to pick up a couple of slaves, and my earlier warrior is moving south to check out the unexplored wilderness S of Germany. Currency is due in 17 turns, at 20%, and I have 216 gold +71gpt.
End of ninth set of ten turns: I have 4 workers plus 13 slaves (6 are on the island), as well as the 1 settler on the galley. My army consists of 8 swords, 4 warriors, and 9 Spartans, and the two galleys. I now have a total of 13 cities, and my score is 478. China has 353, 11 cities, Iroquois have 297, 7 cities, Aztecs 283, 6 cities, Germany 209, 3 cities, Persia 197, 3 cities, Greece 194, 4 cities, and they are all annoyed. America has 195, but they are dead ;).

Save Files (all three) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_bc775.zip)

Given time to rest up, and move into position, I should be ready to invade Persia in 5-6 turns. I definitely want the Colossus, although corruption will be bad, and even if I get a Great Leader, I probably wouldn’t put the FP down there. I am hoping someone will get currency before I do, which is why I am researching it slowly. I am hoping to spend most of my GA getting into one of the middle age techs, and building a bunch of courthouses to reduce corruption now, while I have the extra shields. I want to get trade established with the new continent, those two extra luxuries will come in handy, especially once the Pyramids is done. I am curious where the other two luxuries are (gems and silk), if they are not S of Germany then there must be other islands out there, and I will need to do some more exploring. I might even make a run at the Great Lighthouse, although most of my good cities are not on the coast.
Note: Actually, after thinking about it, I decided not to, if the luxuries were across sea tiles, I would need astronomy to connect them anyway, so no sense rushing to get them, I will just focus on getting the trade with the new continent.

The Kingdom of Carthage, 775BC

Justus II

Feb 20, 2003, 08:58 AM

The Kinngdom of Carthage, 775BC
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_bc775_post.jpg

Not sure why I can't get the screenshot to show up.

Charis

Feb 20, 2003, 08:59 AM

Justus, wow, great job!

Your approach was one I was considering taking, as what seemed to be nearly optimal. I had something else I wanted to try though - you'll see in the last report whether it's 2CC or something else. :P
In any case, I'm almost certain you'll end up well ahead of me, probably both in QSC and in domination speed. Others are showing some good games too, so it could be a really rough field!

@flexo - My guess is that most folks are thinking in terms of offense-defense pairs, i.e. swordsmen plus hoplites are a very powerful combination, able to kill anything in your path and having not much that can kill you. Horses, on the other hand, with attack 2 and moving to fast to stay covered by the Mercs, seem to me a poor choice - at least for the first war or two. Now... if you're planning to pump tons of Horseman and do a mass upgrade to Knights, that's a whole different strat. The Knights have enough defense they are their own offense-defense pair :P I think guys like Justus are thinking in terms of their home continent crippled with Swordsmen with one or more civs wiped out, then Knights to domtinate the other continent. Waiting until Knights to control your own continent will not end up in the fastest domination win.

Now if we were the Zulus instead of the neoCarthaginians, the Horseman+Impi pair makes more sense than swords.

@hotrod / more on research
My comments on not wanting to slow tech, but to speed it, had implicitly in my mind the chance that there would be a continent not reachable until Navigation, in which case the sooner you get there the better. If that limitation is not a factor, 'differential
advantage in tech or production is much more important that tech speed, and yes, longer windows of opportunity, Knights before Muskets, Swords before Pikes, are a good thing.

Charis

flexo

Feb 20, 2003, 10:36 AM

@Justus2
Very impressive. I think you'll pull away even further in the next chart. My CIV was just becoming ready for going to war at the end of this tripple turn.

I seriously doubt I'll manage to pull of a domination victory in the last 30 turns. I would say as much as it is impossible and not going to happen.

@Charis
Yes that was my guess. Since this lasts 30 turns longer than a normal QSC one should be able to reach Chivalry and make a mass upgrade of knight and brutalize the entire continent in a few swift and bloody turns. But it doesn't appear that someone has started going down that road judging from the second stat compilation.

unrelated:
What happens after report4? Game over or do we play on until domination is achived?

Justus II

Feb 20, 2003, 10:51 AM

I dont think Domination was possible in this 120 turn timeframe, with this map, I have finished my turns, and can tell you I am not even half way there, according to mapstat. There is a lot of land on the other continent. But I thought the idea was to be positioned for an early domination, not necessarily to accomplish it in 120 turns. BTW, Chivalry is within reach, but I was forced with the decision of max science to get it by 170bc, or back off a couple notches to make enough money to afford the upgrades. I will go into more detail when we get to the last set of turns.

hotrod0823

Feb 20, 2003, 02:39 PM

@flexo: Following the lead from QSC - C1: most of us played to space launch with a breif update over the last however many turns. I see now reason not to do that here but at Cracker pointed out the QSC loses a bit of meaning much past 1000 BC and may not be a true indicator of early domination. If we play until domination and compare finish dates with the early QSC scores up through 120 then maybe we will have a better idea of how QSC score is related to domination victory.

Hotrod

hotrod0823

Feb 20, 2003, 06:25 PM

1525 BC (60): Opt for a warrior in Carthage. Maybe my settlers will come quicker if I go bigger. :(.

1500 BC (61): Settler/warrior pair head south of Carthage.

Trade Abe Lit and 40 gold for Mapmaking.

1475 BC (62): Hippo builds warrior starts temple.

1450 BC (63): Carthage builds warrior starts settler. Leptis Magna builds warrior starts settler. Form embassy with Iroquios and China. Change research to code of laws.

1425 BC (64): Found Leptis Minor south of Carthage start temple. Trade Persia Math for World map and 20 gold.

1400 BC (65): Get Iroquois Maps and 10 gold for lit.

1375 BC (66): MM carthage for settler and growth.

1350 BC (67): Build first spartan hop start another. Not much else to speak of.

1325 BC (68): Carthage builds settler starts another.

1300 BC (69): Settler heads West to the jungle.

1275 BC (70): more settler movement. Code of laws due in 4. NO one with trade me Polytheism.

1250 BC (71): Carthage MM.

1225 BC (72): Found Sabratha on the West coast start warrior.

1200 BC (73): Leptis Magna builds settler starts worker. Carthage builds settler and starts what will most likely be the last for a while. Research at 20%, CoL next turn.

1175 BC (74): Learn CoL and trade it to Bizzy with 35 gold for Polytheism. Working on Currency at 70% - 1 gpt.

1150 BC (75): Move a few units around. Sell Greece Code of Laws for 50gold and WM.

1125 BC (76): Found Rucicade on the West coast. start warrior. MM Carthage to go 2/2.

1100 BC (77): Hippo builds temple starts barracks. Increase research to 90% to get currency in 11 turns.

1075 BC (78): Carthage builds settler starts worker. Found Oea South of Leptis Magna.

1050 BC (79): MM Carthage to go 2/2.

1025 BC (80): Continue moving settler to final spot before the military buildup begins :hammer:. Finish a hop start another.

1000 BC (81): Carthage builds worker starts barracks. Some worker movement. Hop heading to Leptis minor.

975 BC (82): Sabratha builds warrior starts temple. Found Hadrumetum in the woods North of Washington. China and Germany have Currency it is due in 3 turns.

950 BC (83): Leptis Magna builds worker starts barracks. Increase lux to 20%.

925 BC (84): Hippo builds barracks starts Hop. Currency next turn. Foresty at Oea to get furs online finally.

900 BC (85): Learn Currency start on Republic due in 28 turns at 60%.

875 BC (86): Utica builds another Hop, pause to build a temple. Rusicade builds warrior starts temple.

850 BC (87): Carthage builds barracks start hopilite. Iroquios build Oracle. Furs are online reduce lux to 10%.

825 BC (88): Theveste builds hopilite starts archer. Trade Abe Poly, Currency and code for Construction. Trade Bizzy construction for 50 gold and maps. Greece got Monotheism ofcourse and will not trade.

800 BC (89): Carthage and Hippo build Hopilites and start another. China declared on Germany.

775 BC (90): Trade Maps with Monty. Republic is due in 16 turns at 80% and -3gpt. Bizzy and Greece have feudalisma and Monotheism. Is it possible Bizzy got Feudalism free and traded with Alex. :hmmm:. Trade Construction to China for 40 gold and WM. If he is going to keep Bizzy in check at least they should both be equals right???

The saves:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_1275BC.zip

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_1025BC.zip

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_775BC.zip

Borealis

Feb 21, 2003, 12:04 AM

1525 (60): :sleep:

1500 (61): Carthage keeps building warriors every turn.

1475 (62):

1450 (63):

1425 (64): X-man tries sending a settler straight through our territory, and I tell him to scram. He does. Utica swapped to temple due to nearby Persian settlement and plenty of troops elsewhere.

1400 (65):

1375 (66): Carthage stops building warriors and starts a temple as it is now size 6. Lux tax to 10%. Theveste and Leptis Magna keep building warriors.

1350 (67):

1325 (68): Iron is hooked up! Production swapped to spartan hoplite in Theveste and Leptis Magna to free up the warriors there from defense and MP duty. The Americans appear to be wanting to send future slaves through our territory in the form of a warrior-escorted settler.

1300 (69): Warriors upgraded for 480 gold. Abe's warrior ordered out.

1275 (70): American settler+warrior pair ordered out again. Later I look at this and realize that I forgot to save... sorry. :blush:

1250 (71): American settler+ warrior pair ordered out again. Why won't it auto-declare war?

1225 (72): American settler pair goes home- Abe backs down.

1200 (73):

1175 (74): With 11 swords and a hoplite at American territorial borders, I declare war and take a worker. Production in Carthage swapped to sword- I don't want a GA unless the Americans start it by attacking the hoplite I have in the sword stack.

1150 (75): Philadelphia auto-razed at size 1.

1125 (76): Settler + warrior pair captured near Boston, providing workers. These warriors are wounding my swords more than they should... the RNG doesn't like me.

(IT): Persia wants an alliance vs. the Iroquois and I refuse- if they kill Hiawatha off, I'll get blamed, and Hiawatha might sell me cheap tech. It's in my interest to keep him around.

1100 (77): Boston has been whipped to size 1. Our force heads for Washington. Iroquois worker + HB riding bought for 90 gold. Salamanca has been taken and Hiawatha is reduced to 1 city not far away... he's gone. Workers hook up road connecting to Aztec captial- I trade him Ivory + 2 gpt + 3 gold for Mathematics. He turns Gracious.

1075 (78):

(IT): American archer suices to swords fortified on hill for healing. Persia signs peace with Iroquois- possibly he took some of the gold I traded with Hiawatha.

1050 (79):

(IT): Persians start Colossus.

1025 (80):

1000 (81): Washington is captured! One swordsman is lost, and two others wounded.

975 (82): Washington's resistance ends and it riots. Entertainers there.

950 (83):

(IT): American archer and warrior suicide attacks (odds really against their favor), and the Aztecs wipe out the Iroquois.

925 (84):

900 (85):

875 (86): Sapper team moves south as the Americans have no roads. We want to reduce them to the city near Theveste and extract major tech concessions before taking them out.

(IT): Aztecs start The Oracle.

850 (87): Carthage swaps to settler as it looks like Abe will whip his people down to where we can't take their cities. Boston auto-razed with 1 sword lost. Interesting- we can now trade with Persia, but we don't have anything to trade- I send an Iroquois worker to make a colony to change this.

825 (88): More sword healing and movement, to allow Atlanta to get to size 2.

800 (89):

775 (90): Aztec cultural boundary expands, and Hippo whips a temple for 1 citizen. Theveste swapped to settler, and Philadelphia auto-razed, despite the Super-warrior there that defeats one warrior and redlines the second. Atlanta falls, producing a Great Leader! :party: Checking diplomacy, Abe has only the one city left- New York- which can wait 20 turns for what I can get from him now: Map Making, Code of Laws, World Map, 157 gold, and 2 gpt. A Greek city is revealed on a nearby continent, but no one has contact- Alex must have founded after the exploration. We are now completely caught up in tech, with Polytheism due in 2 turns, and 580 gold +25gpt in the treasury.

Here are the saves (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC-C2e_saves60to90.zip) I have... my apologies for the late submission- two midterms in the past few days meant more time at computers that couldn't play Civ3.

flexo

Feb 21, 2003, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by hotrod0823
@flexo: Following the lead from QSC - C1: most of us played to space launch with a breif update over the last however many turns. I see now reason not to do that here but at Cracker pointed out the QSC loses a bit of meaning much past 1000 BC and may not be a true indicator of early domination. If we play until domination and compare finish dates with the early QSC scores up through 120 then maybe we will have a better idea of how QSC score is related to domination victory.

Hotrod

Well I'm game with that. But I have to get my new computer up and running first (but that should be durring this weekend).

My fourth round is done. I didn't achive the domination goal (duh! like that would have been possible).

flexo

Feb 21, 2003, 05:14 AM

Interesting, most here appears to have started doing battle with the Americans durring the third round (myself being an exception to that).

Haven't looked thru all the timelines but was america the first target for everyone? Might have been with that no iron, few cities and two different luxuries.

Justus II

Feb 21, 2003, 07:32 AM

In my case, America only had one, Persia had the spices, and America didn't even hook theirs up yet! But they were also the most aggressive, sending multiple settlers etc. Whereas the Aztecs loved me, they were polite, and once I built the road, they traded me their spices, so I kept them around (until the 4th round...)

flexo

Feb 21, 2003, 08:34 AM

In my game america had snatched them both. Persia must have had a really sucky time out there on the edge. America had hooked up both their spice or was it incense (the one just north of washington in the hills, there where two of them). And then the one down at the edge (think that was the location of New York in my game).

Arizona_Steve

Feb 21, 2003, 09:20 AM

(61) 1500BC
I find the offending barbarian camp. Fortunately I'll get my next city built before it becomes a problem.

(62) 1475BC
Hippo is founded - our first coastal city would you believe?
A number of things complete. Ultica gets it's temple and will switch to military.
Theveste and Carthage both train archers to defend them. Finally, all cities have a defender in them.

(63) 1450BC
This time the Aztecs demand 20 gold. So far I have caved into all demands, but military is slowly moving up the priority list.

(64) 1425BC
America has discovered mapmaking, but not brokered it around.

(65) 1400BC
Mapmaking has been sold around to the Iroquois and the Aztecs. Max treasury and max gold/turn brings us to "close to a deal".

(66) 1375BC
(67) 1350BC
With an Aztec city being built on one of my wanted sites, and Persian settlers on their way to another, I decide to begin building up my military for an assault on the weakest civ, which looks like the Americans.
I begin by switching Carthage over to a barracks.
A barbarian horseman comes out of the camp and attacks the warrior at Hippo. It loses.

(68) 1325BC
(69) 1300BC
(70) 1275BC
Our first Spartan Hoplite has popped out of Ultica. Another is started.

Arizona_Steve - 1275BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_1275BC.zip)

(71) 1250BC
I begin by building some embassies.
The Aztecs are building The Oracle and have 14 turns to go.
The Iroquois are also building The Oracle, and have 18 turns to go.

(72) 1225BC
Big trading round. America has contact with the Germans, Greeks and Chinese.
I get contact with Germany for 28 gold + 8/turn.
I get the Iroquois world map in exchange for Contact with Germany.
I sell contact with Germany to Persia for their entire treasury of 35 gold.
I sell Contact with the Aztecs and 3/turn to Germany for contact with Greece.
I sell contact with the Iroquois, Persians and Aztecs, together with 35 gold + 4/turn to Greece for contact with China and Map Making.
I sell contact with the Iroquois, Persians and Aztecs to China for their World Map.
I sell our World Map to America for 20 gold + their World Map.
I sell our World Map to the Aztecs for 70 gold.
I sell our World Map to the Iroquois for 75 gold.
I sell our World Map to China for 50 gold.
I sell our World Map to Greece for 70 gold + their World Map.
Carthage builds a barracks and starts cranking out Spartan Hoplites.

(73) 1200BC
Ultica grows to size 4 and is MM'd to 5 shields/turn.
I MM Leptis Magna to 6 shields/turn to speed up it's temple.

(74) 1175BC
Carthage grows to size 5, but I can't quite MM it to 10 shields/turn. Luxuries go to 10% to stave off riots.

(75) 1150BC
I see some techs have been swapped around, so another round of trading ensues.
World Map + 150 gold to America for Mathematics and a worker.
World Map + 70 gold + Mathematics to Persia for Polytheism.
Polytheism to Greece for Code of Laws, their World Map and 6 gold.

(76) 1125BC
(77) 1100BC
Carthage gets two defenders and starts a temple to allow it to go to size 6 without luxury tax.

(78) 1075BC
Carthage hits size 6 and achieves the magic 10 shields/turn.

(79) 1050BC
I upgrade a warrior to a swordsman, to give the AI something to fear.
I also switch Ultica over to a courthouse, as it is losing 3 shields/turn to corruption.
Persepolis completes the Oracle.

(80) 1025BC

Arizona_Steve - 1025BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_1025BC.zip)

(81) 1000BC
Leptis Magna has completed its temple, and starts a barracks.
Hippo completes it's temple and starts a harbor.

(82) 975BC
Carthage and Theveste both complete temples and start a swordsman and a barracks respectively.

(83) 950BC
The Aztecs complete the Oracle and that confuses me because I thought it was completed by Persia. Turns out that Persia are the proud owners of the Colossus.

(84) 925BC
(85) 900BC
(86) 875BC
(87) 850BC
Leptis Magna now has a barracks and begins cranking out Spartan Hoplites.

(88) 825BC
(89) 800BC
(90) 775BC

Arizona_Steve - 775BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Arizona_Steve_QSC_C2e_775BC.zip)

Borealis

Feb 21, 2003, 09:26 AM

In my game, America didn't have enough workers to snatch the spices and incense, and Persia had to string cities out along the west coast. Persia grabbed the horses near Washington, so Abe had no iron or horses, making him a natural target. He also had a tech lead and plenty of money, which I relieved him of, more than making up my upgrade costs. :satan: This would have been a much different game under RBE rules, with all those early workers unbought, and the Americans doing much better- I think I mentioned at one point that in my game, when I built an embassy, Washington showed two productive citizens working flood plain tiles and a clown, since the incense nearby hadn't been hooked up yet.

Although I'm behind the group in general, and in a worse position overall due to the strong Aztec presence- I don't think anyone else had the Iros eliminated as fast- I'm doing well on a personal level when being trapped on an island with 5 AI, two of them 'pushy types.' :P

I'm going to practice with a few Carthage games once I finish the Rome game to get used to the Numidian Merc's cost. Normal hoplites are so much more useful, and I think I'd almost rather build more workers and get cheaper libraries than have to deal with that UU. Unless we get a GOTM-Babylon style start, and have to fight for our lives from the beginning, I'm going to almost solely use warrior+settler pairs until I get a good military factory going.

flexo

Feb 21, 2003, 10:20 AM

So in your game the Aztecs and Iroqs fought? Interesting. In my game no fighting at all. Well ... until I decided I need more space .. and luxuries ... and the others where to puny to resist me :)

cracker

Feb 22, 2003, 10:33 AM

I am unavoidably pulled away with other commitments today and may not get the next data table completed and up until sometime on Sunday. I apologize for the delay.

This game has some very interesting aspects that we can compare between the Regent and Emperor progressions and it will be interesting to ask each player in the end to summarize what they think they may have learned on two levels: 1) individual play issues 2) big picture issues that help understand the differences between Regent and Emperor.

flexo

Feb 24, 2003, 05:15 AM

It is monday now but still no posts of the last 30 turns. Are we all waiting for the report to post or are we just waiting for someone to open the flood gate?

flexo

Feb 24, 2003, 06:04 AM

OK I can't guarantee that I'll be online anymore today so i'm going to post my fourth report (I noticed that alot of players had done it in the regent game, so I concider it as safe).

edit:
ok i removed it again ... waiting for the cracker ...

Karasu

Feb 24, 2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by cracker
I am unavoidably pulled away with other commitments today and may not get the next data table completed and up until sometime on Sunday. I apologize for the delay.

This game has some very interesting aspects that we can compare between the Regent and Emperor progressions and it will be interesting to ask each player in the end to summarize what they think they may have learned on two levels: 1) individual play issues 2) big picture issues that help understand the differences between Regent and Emperor.

I'm glad to see that someone else too is busy with real life events. I am having a generally horrible time, and in spite of the feelings of guilt for not being able to complete something I had started, I really won't be able to follow this SG.
I will try to stay tuned to the thread anyway, in case things start getting better...

meldor

Feb 24, 2003, 03:33 PM

I was waiting for cracker to give the word to start posting them.

Justus II

Feb 24, 2003, 08:06 PM

I was waiting also, I have it ready, but will see if we can discuss the last set of turns first.

hotrod0823

Feb 24, 2003, 08:09 PM

I have the turns completed upto and beyond 120 - far from domination but interesting no the less. I would prefer to wait for the latest info and some more discussion. I am interested to see when the wars began and who started what etc. etc. :hammer:

Hotrod

Skyfish

Feb 25, 2003, 12:30 PM

Over at the Regent thread we posted our last turns, it's still interesting to talk about those moves even if cracker's not posted the results.
Some of us over there maanged to get control of the entire starting continent, I was really wondering if any of you had managed to get that far... ;)

Justus II

Feb 25, 2003, 01:34 PM

I will post my saves/timeline tonight, I have a meeting after work. I got about 2/3s of the home continent, and one city on the next. However, the rest should fall quickly!

cracker

Feb 26, 2003, 01:25 AM

My apologies again for lagging with the data tables. Most of the regent players are already uploaded to 170bc and as soon as we get the Emperor level synchronized I will update to that level.

Here is the data table up to turn 90:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC_C2table0775bc.gif

We should note that Zenga and Hotrod have surged into the middle ages ahead of the other players and Justus and Singularity are dropping through anarchy into Monarchy in preparation for disemboweling their neighbors.

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 10:17 AM

I don't want to shortchange the discussion of the last series, but I do want to get my next set of saves posted so Cracker can work on the next table. I will post the full timeline later (it is already written up, but I don't want to distract from this discussion). Cracker was right in that I had undergone 5 turns of anarchy, but by 825BC the anarchy was over and I was in Monarchy. That is also the turn I kicked off my Golden Age, which runs through most of this next set of turns.

This was a key part of my strategy, trying to hold off my Golden Age until I was out of despotism. It is always hard with an early UU, and even trickier with a defensive UU, because it is hard to prevent the opponent from attacking. I didn't build many Spartans early because of this, and kept them mostly in my interior cities. Luckily the Aztecs never attacked, or I would have been faced with the decision - Defend with my best unit, or retreat to avoid GA?!? The 2-attack of the Spartan did make it easier to time the GA, instead of having to wait for someone to attack me. I just made sure I had several available when the turn came, and was hoping to treat them like elites, use them to pick off a wounded defender. Speaking of elites, I had no GLs, and only a couple of elites, even after destroying America and Persia. I guess I have been spoiled from playing Rome in the GOTM, I tend to play militaristic anyway, and I am used to getting leaders, or at least more elites to try for leaders with. I have had to build wonders the old fashioned way. I built the Pyramids by hand, although the GA helped a lot, and am over half way done with Sun Tzu.

Save Files (All Three) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_bc170.zip)

Obviously I did not hit domination, in fact I'm not sure it would have been possible in this timeframe. I have over half of the home continent, and am not even half way to the domination limit. According to Mapstat, I would need 821 tiles, I have 327. I think even if I had the whole starting continent, it would not be enough. I am closer on population, with 111 of 151 needed. With Knights next turn, the Aztecs should fall quickly, they have no iron anymore. My plan from here would be to take the remaining 3 cities on this continent, then prepare for war with the Iroquois, who may put up more of a fight. They do have iron, and will have had the opportunity to build some pikes, and the mounted warrior is a decent UU, better for their counterattacks than the Jag warrior. I will probably play on, at least to 10AD which should finish off the Aztecs. A fifth set of 30, going to 230AD, might be enough, at least enough to finish the continent and make an invasion. Still no great leaders, I was hoping for one for the FP, which I would like to build somewhere between the Aztec and Iroquois lands. That, plus Sun Tzu, should give me plenty of productive cities to crank out knights as a jump-off to invade the other continent.

The Known World, 170BC
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_QSC_C2e_bc170_Mini.jpg

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 10:20 AM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_bc170_Mini.jpg

Sorry about that, here is the correct world map. Note my trading outpost city on the other continent! It was a hassle, but worth it. ;)

hotrod0823

Feb 26, 2003, 10:20 AM

Too bad this isn't a space race game :lol:!

This round I finally figured out why I was lagging in the number of cities. Carthage is setup nicely for a settler factory but I wasn't using it effectively. Going 2-4-2 was costing me turns ! I threw in another warrior and increased to a 3-5-3 roation with some minor MM to get the settlers out quicker. It may have only shaved 1 turn off but it resulted in more settlers overall for me.

Having played the next round and beyond I am not so sure that getting to the Middle ages first is a benifit or not in this domination game. I don't have an swords yet :hammer: but war is on the brink and they will arrive soon enough. Can't see the benifit of upgrading my warrior MP's just to have them sit in cities idle.

I am surprised to See Justus II lack of Mercs. Is it due to cost or do you just know that the AI will not be attacking and only offesive units will be needed?? I have been trying to get 1 Merc. per city minimum. They are expensive for such an early unit but in reality more effective than pikes without any resource requirements and they can attack if necessary. On second thought is it just to delay the Golden Age??

Enough rambling - :)

Hotrod

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by hotrod0823

I am surprised to See Justus II lack of Mercs. Is it due to cost or do you just know that the AI will not be attacking and only offesive units will be needed?? I have been trying to get 1 Merc. per city minimum. They are expensive for such an early unit but in reality more effective than pikes without any resource requirements and they can attack if necessary. On second thought is it just to delay the Golden Age??

Enough rambling - :)

Hotrod

You posted as I was putting my post up, but yes, primarily the second thought ;) I didn't want to have them only to run from an approaching enemy saying "don't come near me, we are still in anarchy!!!" :crazyeye:
They are also more expensive, I tried to picture them as an early pikeman, not an improved spear, because of the cost. Great overall unit, but you have to put them into the context of your strategy. Very useful to accompany swords, they can absorb those infuriating archer attacks, and with a 2 attack can actually be used to finish off a wounded defender if you start running out of swords.

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 12:39 PM

Actually, after looking at the new chart, I noticed a mistake, I actually had 9 Spartans in 775BC, but it looks like they got left off the chart. The other unit numbers are correct. I'm not sure if that means they were left out of the point totals. But I did delay building them until late in that set of turns.

Also, my contacts are at 210, I assume this means that I lose the points for America, since they were destroyed? I understand the logic if that's the case (less opportunity for trading, selling tech, etc), just wondering if that's the case.

hotrod0823

Feb 26, 2003, 06:00 PM

Rounds 10-12

775 BC (90): Change nothing.

750 BC (91): Carthage builds a horse starts a temple.

730 BC (92): Hadrumetum builds a warrior starts a temple.

710 BC (93): Greece and Germany are ahead by Mono and Feudalism and will not trade. Monty has MOnarchy and will not trade.

690 BC (94): Missed Utica happiness issue and they revolt. Up lux to 20%. Hippo builds a horse and starts another.

670 BC (95): Nothing doing.

650 BC (96): zzzzz

630 BC (97): Carthage builds temples starts horsey. Aztecs in the territories hmm maybe war will go north instead of south.

Aztecs declare and attack a city guarded by a Spartan hopilite. We are in our Golden age!.

610 BC (98): Change to a military focus, archers, hops and horseys.

590 BC (99): Attack Tlaxcala and kill 1 spear the second kills my Hop. Lose a warrior to an already wounded spear moving toward our horses.

570 BC (100): Capture Tlaxcala. Start a temple.

550 BC (101): Form up a stack south of Calixtiahuaca.

530 BC (102): Move stack into Calixtiahuaca territory. Learn Republic but can't afford to revolt yet. Start on Engineering.

510 BC (103): Capture Calixtianhuaca, killing 2 spears an archer and a jag. Losing none. Start a temple.

490 BC (104): German makes a demand and doesn't like the answer. We are at war with Bizzy.

470 BC (105): Few more horseys and a new hop are built. Continue with military. Attack and Wound a spear in Teotihuaca.

450 BC (106): Teotihuaca is down to a jag for protection, pillage the Aztec horses moving a stack towards Texcoco.

430 BC (107): Attack and Capture Teotihuaca and get my first great leader. Consider in FP site and will hold for a few turns to see if I can end this war quickly.

410 BC (108): Decide to hold off on an FP site and elect to take the pyramids. Rush with the leader in Utica.

390 BC (109): My archers and horses have run up against pikeman and now is a time for peace at least with the Aztecs. We get Feudalism and a worker. Revolt and draw 5 turns of anarchy.

370 BC (110): Units will have a few turns to formup into stacks in the south. :hammer:.

350 BC (111): Anarchy, not much to say.

330 BC (112): Nada.

310 BC (113): more of the same

290 BC (114): New Republic of Carthage. make Peace with Bizzy and get 14 gold out of the deal. Declare war on Abe and capture a worker.

270 BC (115): Whoops! Massive revolts in each city up lux to 20%. Can't take New york yet. lose 1 sword.

250 BC (116): Capture New York Easily, start a temple.

230 BC (117): Attack Phil and lose a horsey. Phiy still standing.

210 BC (118): The spear in Phily must be eating something good. Can't beat those spears :(. Engineering next turn.

190 BC (118): You guessed it Phily is still standing. Lost another heathy vet horsey.

170 BC (120): Lose a 2/5 sword this time at Phily. MOving another stack into the territory.

Here are the last saves: Missed the middle 2 by 1 turn but 170 BC is correct

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_550BC.zip
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_350BC.zip
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hotrod_QSC_C2e_170BC.zip

hotrod0823

Feb 26, 2003, 06:08 PM

And a pic of my Mini map

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hotrodqcemini170bc.JPG

Charis

Feb 26, 2003, 08:39 PM

Here's my timeline and saves for turns 100, 110, 120
(And yes, I was waiting patiently for Cracker's turn 90 table)

[91] -750 : We Master Math and Philosophy.
[92] -730 : Our horse is riding over to Corinth :P
[95] -670 : Ack!!! With our horse ONE TURN from meeting Greece, the clueless Iroquois
FINALLY have contact with them, and the Chinese. :rolleyes:
[97] -630 : We contact Greeks ourselves. They also have contact with Germans. Everyone
has all contacts. No one lacks tech. When I master a new tech I'll trade for contact.
[99] -590 : IBT The Iro declare war on the Aztecs!! Sweet!! That will draw the big green
army up north, and I'll get to munch on the tender underbelly shortly!
Also IBT Lincoln establishes an embassy :P
[100] -570 : All our lands are fully improved, Utica is size 6, when 7 I'll add a worker
back in and shoot for 10spt there. Our military is now: 7 Hoplites, 4 Sword, 4 Horse.
The Aztecs are toast. We'll take from 3 to 5 cities, and the Iro will eat the rest.
The only real issue - I don't want a despotic GA. The WHOLE point of waiting this long
AND of getting the GL was to go to our first war when we revolt to a new govt. *SAVE*

[103] -510 : Largest nations of the world: China, Iro, Greeks, Germans, Aztecs, Amer,
Persians, Carthage.
[104] -490 : We add a native worker to Utica, letting slaves keep doing labor. Corruption
is higher than I like, so we swap to a courthouse.
[106] -450 : I just notice a nasty little problem. Aztecs keep whipping their cities
near me down to size one 8-\ And no culture of course, meaning they're auto-raze
sites, or if they manage to grow, very unhappy sites. Sigh.
[IBT] We master Republic and Construction, woo!!! Revolt now? Sure! Time: 1 turn!!
Ye-haw! We got a 'min' value of 2, cut off one for revolting immediately at tech,
partly due to the fact our empire is so small. We'll soon be ready to fight!
[107] -430 : Aztec worker for sale for WM+24g. Persia lacks Republic, Greeks lack both.
I give Persians Rep for both communications, WM+65(all) gold. Germany is rather
backwards and I give them Math for their WM. To speed up research a bit, I give
Republic to all the other civs for whatever pittance they can pay.
[109] -390 : Texcoco hits size 2. Time is too short, in fact I've probably waited too
long as far as QSC is concerned. I need now as many cities as possible in the last
11 turns. I'm going to need to hit two civs, not just one. Persia has a city very
near us, with their others quite far away, and they're weaker than America.

We declare war on the Aztecs, honorably, then move up into position. Trying to use
only as many troops as needed, we pull some over toward west and Persia. (IBT) Nada.
[110] -370 : At Calix, reg sword beats spear and promotes, vet sword beats spear and promotes
to elite. Unfortunately, city is autorazed. At Teo, vet horse retreats, then a vet
sword loses 8-| Insuffificient force to continue. At Texcoco, one horse treats,
another wins after turning red. Vet sword loses to reg spear. 8-|
Our Hoplite presses on vs the hurt spear and wins, setting off our Golden Age.
Hmm, there's a jaggie left underneath. Feeling too bold now, we declare war on
Persia. We capture two workers off the bat. Our horses hit Antioch. One wins vs
reg spear, one loses - promoting it. Another horse rides out of Carthage and wins,
put again, there's a warrior underneath preventing the city capture. We add an
American worker to Utica and can easily get 20spt now in GA. (Making 30 shield units,
however. May need to add another, we'll see after courthouse is done next turn.)
Carthage is at 30spt :) *SAVE* (IBT) Nothin'
[111] -350 : Vet horse hits Texcoco, which has a newly whipped spear. We win. Then
a UU battle, our Merc vs the Jag. We win, capture the city AND the settler within :P
At Antioch, elite horse beats the warrior, and we capture the city, claiming horses.
Four workers captured. Utica adds another American. At Tlatelolco we lose a horse
and win one. A spear left.
[112] -330 : Healing and moving.
[113] -310 : At Teo, horse goes red immediately, but comes back to win. Second wins,
but there's a third spear. We have one more healed horse who goes, and wins. That
city had culture and is captured. It's barracks is intact. Just opposite the city
was an archer and settler moving up (but we can't reach them).
Carthage hits size 12 and we peel off a settler (1 turn) Utica goes the other
way, adding unhappy Persian workers to hit 30spt. With both size 12 anyway, our
lux slider is at 20% anyway, so we can handle this unhappiness for now. They'll
assimilate later, right?! :P
(IBT) lots of movement! A persian archer attacks our sword in the open and promotes
him :P That Aztec archer-settler move OFF a mountain next to our troops. And
a Persian settler pair heads to the old site of Calix, where our new settler will go.
[114] -290 : Fortunately we can still hit 30spt with Carthage as size 10. We whack the
Aztec archer-settler. At Tlatelolco a vet horse loses to reg spear, then an elite
one captures the city. There are a few Aztec archers loose nearby. We pop both.
(IBT) We master Polytheism. Great Lighthouse completed by Persia.
[115] -270: Vet sword barely wins and promotes vs spear at Arbela. Vet hoplite defeats
a Persian horse in the open. Just outside the Aztec capital we find an archer-settler
begging for our horse to get him. We comply for two more workers. We had not intended
to push all the way to their capital, but with resistance so light... we send out
a pair of vet swords to join the horses :hammer:
By our capital vet sword defeats the spear-settler pair. Two more workers.
Our settler was planning to take old Calix site, but instead we'll do two cities,
one closer, one further.
(IBT) Persia wants to talk peace, but won't offer anything. We'll take Arbela then
see, soon enough. Aztecs hit our forward horse with an archer, winning but exposed.
China start Great Wall. China completes Great Wall in Nanking? (Great Leader??)

[116] -250 : We hit that archer and kill him. Another horse loses at Teno.
Abe has currency, so when someone else gets it, we'll be in Middle Ages.
A Persian warr had sailed up to Tlatelolco, so we take it out with a horse.
At Arbela we lose a vet horse but two elite swords take the city.
With wars about to end and the people of Carthage yearning to expand further,
we pause for a settler from both Utica and Carthage.
(IBT) There's currency, we're in Middle Ages. Score has been spiking up, with power,
and our culture (due to the wonders) is tops in the world. Silly world ranking lists
us last however. We get the 'Forbidden Palace' msg.
[117] -230 : Elite horse picks off a stray Aztec archer. (Still no leaders, boo)
We move a large stack up to Teno. Leptis Magna is founded on the SE edge, coastal,
next to the iron. Theveste is founded on a disease ridden flood plain NW of Utica.
[118] -210 : Horse fails to soften Teno, retreating. Elite sword wins, no leader.
(We would probably rush our FP right there in Teno if we got one :P ) Hoplite
defeats a spear. Now just an archer left. Hmmm, use our wounded elite horse? Sure.
Still no ldr, but the city is ours. Hmmm, an archer on the back side. All we can do
is pull another 1hp horse into the city to keep it from falling.
With Tenochititlan in hand, Aztecs have just two more cities. May as well take one
right now for peace. Oh??? They have TWO? One is on a remote island next to a
German city?! We'll need to rush a hoplite there next turn.
[119] -190 : Both cities celebrate peace by popping a settler and starting a marketplace.
First things first, we blow 240 cash to rush a Hoplite in each tribute town.
BTW, we have a 'strong military' compared to every civ on the planet except avg vs
China. We found Hippo on the horses SE of Carthage. Back near Arbela, elite sword
beats a loose Persian horse. Two elite swords climb the mtn to Susa.
(IBT) Sweet, just in time. We master Monotheism from the Great library :P
[120] -170 : The last turn...
Leptis Minor founded to claim iron and be a mini-worker town. Similarly Sabratha.
The attack on Susa... STILL no leader, but we do win both and capture it.
Now it's time for peace. He gives Susa and all his gold (wasn't willing to part
with wonder city Pasargarde). As a symbolic gesture, we then buy a worker from him
and add him into Carthage, for we are benevolent... not a Genghis! :hammer:

Our power and score are now highest of any civ, although ranking score is low. Culture
remains dominant. Carthage is the 'top' city. We've gone from 2 to 17 cities in the
last 11 turns. We're ranking number one in *everything* except mil service and disease :D

America only has six cities and a weak military, and the Iro were actually hurt badly
by the Green machine. This continent is easily mine to take. And with the short channel
crossing not requiring Navigation, this game will be a quick domination win.
It should score highly in QSC as well due to the Pyramids. That was the plan from the
start, to have two uber cities cranking out a war machine fueled by the Great Library
that would capture towns, directly or in tribute, which would each have a granary.
One strat that might have worked much better would be to build a strong core and
military and *capture* the Pyramids. But if the other continent did so, you're stuck.
(Note - these comments are BEFORE seeing other people's last turn uploads and notes.
After looking at turn 90 though, I have the feeling I'll be dead last and Justus
will be on top - I look forward to reading the final notes)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis-QSC-C2e-170bc.jpg

Turn 100 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc0570.sav)
Turn 110 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc0370.sav)
Turn 120 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Charis_QSC_C2e_bc0170.sav)

I'll comment more on what I was trying, and why it didn't quite work out as well as hoped, after seeing other results. OTOH, I do have the Great Library and the Pyramids, and basically have STOPPED all research from now until my Knight domination later.

Thanks,
Charis

meldor

Feb 26, 2003, 10:48 PM

650 BC - War with America starts, We capture New York.

610 BC - Washington captured.

570 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc570.zip)

550 BC - Great Library finishes.

490 BC - Boston destroyed, America is no more.

390 BC - War with Persia.

370 BC - Destroy Tarsus.

370 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc370.zip)

350 BC - Susa is destroyed.

230 BC - Capture Pasargadae.

170 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Meldor_QSC_C2e_bc170.zip)

Within a couple of turns I will cature the Persia capital which has both the Colossus and the Great Lighthouse. The Aztecs have the Great Pyramids and the Iroquois built the Great Wall for me.

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 10:54 PM

Before going to next turn: After reviewing my last set of turns and my situation, I adjusted production in a few cities: Oea switched from Temple to Harbor, Sabratha switched from Harbor to Spartan, and NY switched from Courthouse to Settler.

Tenth Set of 10 turns
750 Nothing produced, but I pay 228g to rush temple in Washington. I see a Persian settler moving north with a spear toward the former site of Boston, and an Aztec settler heading south. I was going to invade Persia next, so I decide to risk war early rather than wait for them to settle, I threaten them to leave and they declare war. I also up science to 60%, will have currency in 5 turns, at +30 gpt.
730 Persia mustn’t have taken me seriously, a second settler w/warrior moves N of Susa. Iroquois finishes the Oracle, starts a cascade. Persia is building Pyramids and Great Library, with only 4 cities, looks like this will be easy. Washington completes Temple, starts on a Courthouse, Utica and Sabratha produce Spartans, and both Leptis’ finish settlers, changing to Libraries. I quickly take out the Persian settlers, my elite sword kills the warrior, losing 2hp, and a spartan kills the spearman, losing 1. I now have 4 more slaves, which I set to work building roads near my future cities (the old Boston and Philly sites). The Greeks settled a new city (Delphi) on the coast just as my galley approaches, looks like I am headed to the mountains S of Germany, where I also see a barb camp.
710 Not much happens, I land my settler and spartan in hills SW of Berlin. I am using my other galley to ferry workers to the smaller island, where they can then be picked up by the first one and transported to the continent. My swordsmen are moving on Susa.
690 Theveste finishes Courthouse, starts on Library, Oea finishes Harbor, starts a Galley. A quick check shows no new trade options, why can’t the AI figure out how to build a harbor? My settler founds Cirta SW of Berlin, the Spartan kills a barb horse, losing 1hp. Germany expels my warrior, who was trying to move S to link up w/Cirta, actually pops him out on the southern border, but he is furious, so I give him Literature, to bring him back to annoyed. Persia sends an Archer out from Susa, inflicts 1hp on my sword, but dies.
670 Utica, Sabratha pop out Spartans, Sabratha switches to a Sword. I capture another barb slave, load 2 more on my galley. I launch my assault on Susa, first vet is killed by a spear, who loses 2hp but is promoted. Second vet kills the second spear. My elite then finishes off the wounded spear, and Susa is mine! I start on temple. The Aztecs now have 2 settlers moving south through my territory, I don’t want to risk a war right now, and my settlers have a slight lead, especially if I can delay his a little. Montezuma, who had been polite for the first couple of millennia, is now annoyed, so I sell him construction for the paltry sum of wm+14g, and even gift him 1gpt, to buy some goodwill, but no sign of change. Our Spice deal will be up in 5 turns, but by then Susa should be able to connect to the spice in the forest, and I won’t need the Aztec spice. Still, I’m not ready for a two-front war.
650 Currency! I enter the Middle Ages, and start on Feudalism at 10%, +82gpt. My palace expands again. I pillage the Persian’s last source of Incense, more as an annoyance. I change Leptis Minor back to another settler. My Spartan near Cirta disbands the barb camp for 25g.
630 I spend 28g to rush a settler from NY, and 232 to rush the temple at Susa. My first settler arrives and founds Nora S of the old Boston site, starts on Temple. My army is moving along the road W to Pasargadae.
610 NY and Leptis Minor complete Settlers, Susa finishes the Temple and starts on Courthouse, Utica gets a Spartan and Sabratha a Sword, both start on Spartans. I capture another slave on Slave Island. My second settler founds Rusaddir 4N of Washington, which fills in an open area, the Aztec settlers turn around after this turn.
590 Oea finishes a Galley, starts on another, to explore this coast and look for any signs of islands. I build Sulcis 3S of New York. I attack Pasargadae, my first vet sword kills a spear, losing 3hp, my elite attacks the second spear and dies, inflicting 1hp, my next vet sword kills off the spear, and the city is mine. I start on a temple. I am now down to 4 vet swords, with a couple of regulars coming over from Susa, but I do have 3-4 Spartans in the area. I don’t want to stall out before I take Persepolis. China lands a settler on the small island SW of Greece.
570 Hippo finishes Courthouse, starts on a Library, the resistance in Pasargadae ends, working on a temple. I rush a temple in Cirta for some culture, for 216g. I switch Theveste to Marketplace, done in 2. My workers are roading and irrigating throughout the American and former Persian lands. I bring science up to 80%, Feudalism is due in 8 turns, with +7gpt. I establish an embassy with Germany, they are at war with the Greeks. Berlin is working on a settler, pop 4, no buildings. I give Germany Mathematics, my plan is to gift either Greece or Germany up to the Middle Ages, while holding back the optional techs, then use them to get Monotheism when they get it for free, unless Persia gets there first.
End of tenth set of ten turns: I now have 4 workers and about 20 slaves, 3 warriors left, 8 swords, 14 spartans and 3 galleys, and a total of 19 cities. Feudalsim is 8 turns away, the Pyramids are done in 4.
I have 24 gold, making 7/turn at 2.8.0, and a score of 568. My rivals are as follows: China 411, 12 cities, Iroq. 328, 7 cities, Aztecs 318, 7 cities, Germans 220, 3 cities, Greeks 216, 5 cities, and Persians 211, 2 cities. All are annoyed except Germany, who is polite, and Persia, who is at war.

Eleventh Set of 10 turns
550 Cirta finishes the temple, Utica and Sabratha finish Spartans, both switch to library. Aztecs have monarchy, so its time to shop it around, China is the only one with money, they will pay 50g and wm. I also trade Aztecs incence, for 9g and wm, this was a mistake, I wasn’t thinking but I would be attacking them in less than 20 turns. My rep was already pretty bad, no one would do gpt deals, either way. I was trying to look back, I vaguely remember giving Lincoln a 1gpt gift, maybe it wasn’t expired when I attacked. Anyway, too late to worry about it now, besides, sooner or later they will all be furious with me!
530 Lost spices, but Susa’s culture expands, perfect timing, I now have my own spice. Theveste finishes a market, starts on library. I send an extra spartan to Carthage to keep the peace. Workers start to cut two forests near Susa, toward a courthouse.
510 The Battle of Persepolis: First vet loses 2hp before killing a spear, second loses 1hp and kills his, finally the third loses an hp, becomes Elite, and finishes the final spear. I now have Persepolis, and the Colossus! Unfortunately, corruption is so bad, that it is all wasted. I start on a library, may eventually buy a courthouse too, but not now. I make a peace deal with Persia, but they have nothing to offer. I make a mistake, I give them currency, but they will not sell me Monotheism (duh!) they’re still furious. So I pay 43g to get an embassy in Athens, they are building Pyramids (right, in 43 turns), and have a barracks. I give them Code of Law, Polytheism, and Currency, and voila’, they now have monotheism. I put together a package of ROP, Literature, Monarchy and 3 gpt, and they give me Monotheism. I’n not usually a big fan of ROPs, I get paranoid, but they are on another continent, and besides it looks like I am going to have to build their road network for them if I want to trade. While I am at it, I trade Germany MapMaking for an ROP. Iroquois are already in the middle ages, Aztecs are not. Looks like they will be my next target. There is still a gap of territory between their capital and their southern city, so I switch Leptis Minor to a settler, maybe I can squeeze in there and build a base.
490 Carthage completes the Pyramids! Start on market, done in 4. Oea finishes another galley. I sell off the granary in Carthage. The Aztec borders expanded, just after I had my great idea, so I switch Leptis back to library. I board a spartan on the galley near Cadiz, and send all my swords and some spartans from Persia to Leptis Magna. Time to go after the Aztecs before they get Feudalism.
470 Greeks and Iroquois both land settlers on Slave Island, just as I am loading the last one on a galley, they can have the land, I got all the workers! The first few boatloads have landed and are building roads from Cirta to the germans, these last few will land near Delphi to build roads connecting the Greeks to the Germans, so I can trade with both. Saldae is founded between Pasargadae and Susa, near the wheat, filling in the last major gap in my half of the continent, starts on a courthouse. I back science down to 50%, feudalism in 3 +41gpt.
450 Leptis Magna finishes the library, starts on a market. The Aztecs complete the Great Library in Tenochitlan, Beijing cascades and finishes the Hanging Gardens, everyone else is building the Great Wall or Lighthouse. This was significant, but it didn’t quite hit me yet.
430 Hippo finishes library, switches to market. I finally need an entertainer in Carthage, as pop hits 10. I now drop science to 40%, still finish next turn, +64 gold.
410 I now understand Feudalism, start immediately on Chivalry, scheduled for 14 turns. Carthage finishes the Market, now everyone can go back to work, I start building Sun Tzu, done in 22 turns. Utica and Theveste finishe librarys, switches to horse, Oae finishes a spartan, starts on library. Rusiddar finishes a spartan, starts another. The Golden Age is officially over, but I had a good run. I pump science up to 70%, Chivalry will be done in 9, but only plus 5gpt. Sun Tzu is now scheduled to take 28 turns, still acceptable, especially since the cascades should be finishing soon, so no one else will have a head start.
370 Sabratha finishes library, also starts horse. Workers clear forest near Cirta, will be rushing a harbor soon. China gives me 30g and wm for an ROP.
End of eleventh set of ten turns: I still have 4 workers and about 20 slaves, 2 warriors left, 9 swords, 18 spartans and 4 galleys, and a total of 21 cities, my score is 688. My rivals are as follows: China 472, 13 cities, Iroq. 358, 9 cities, Aztecs 349, 7 cities, Germans 237, 4 cities, Greeks 237, 6 cities, and Persians 201, 1 cities. Aztecs are cautious (as well they should be), Iroquois is annoyed, the three on the other continent are all polite, and Persia is still furious.

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 10:54 PM

Twelfth Set of 10 turns
350 Before I start, I switch Leptis Magna to sword, and Oea to Spartans. I drop tech back to 50%, Chivalry back to 9 turns, but +19 gpt, I figure it won’t do much good to get the tech and not have any money for upgrades. I am still moving forces toward the Leptis’, in position to strike the Aztecs. I had been hoping to wait for Chivalry, but as I looked back over my notes, it sinks in that the Aztecs have the Great Library. That means that I don’t just have to beat them before they get Feudalism, I have to beat them before ANYONE gets Feudalism. That, and the fact that I can drop to 0 research once I have it and catch up on some gold, makes me decide to attack them ASAP.
330 Utica, Theveste finish horses, Rusicade finishes courthouse, starts on Spartan. I pay 236g to hurry the harbor at Cirta, I am connected to Germany, time to start trading.
310 Cirta finishes the harbor, I can trade! Germany has dye, but I am going to wait until I take care of some other things first. Iroquois finished the Great Wall. I am ready so I declare war on the Aztecs, capture 2 slaves near Tlatelolco. Also, the two hoplites land on the north coast, to pillage his northern iron source. Another Spartan from Leptis moves to pillage the southern source, just in case he gets Feudalism from the GL during the war. Now I return to diplomacy, and I can’t trade with Germany??? It says I need a sea route? I haven’t had this happen before, but I finally figure out, since I can only make coastal trades, the Aztec cultural borders are blocking my route to Germany!! They extend across the coast on both sides of the continent. I adjust my plans, Tlatelolco will have to be one of my early targets now.
290 Oea finishes Spartan. My swords and spartans are moving in towards Tenochitlan. I start moving some horsemen and a couple of straggler swords toward Tlatelolco.
270 Leptis Minor finishes library, which should help culture near the front, and starts on Spartan. Sabratha builds horse. An Aztec swordsman from Tenochitlan kills one of my spartans!
250 Leptis Magna completes a sword, Utica and Theveste finish horses. Time for the main attack, my first vet loses 3hp but kills a spearman. My second is killed, but wounds his spear twice. My elite sword loses 4hp before killing the wounded spear. I have to send in another sword against a wounded swordsman, but I am victorious. Tenochitlan and the Great Library are mine! Now I notice a strange thing, I can trade with Greece, but not Germany. Aztec culture still blocks the coastal waters. I am really puzzled, until I realize the Greeks have built their own harbor. Apparently the culture blocks me from trading with my own harbor, since I am at war, but the Greeks can trade, since they are not? The Germans are connected to Cirta, but not to Greece yet. Strange, but I’ll take it. They will trade me Wine for Horses, Ivory, Incence and wm. It seems like robbery, but for a new luxury (my fifth) it is worth it. I also start sending workers to build roads connecting Greece with Germany, and also connecting Cirta with China, just in case.

Between turns, the Aztecs launch a counterattack, jag warriors kill 2 of my swords and capture a worker near Theveste. Also, an archer takes out another of my swords. I shouldn’t have moved all the spartans into Tenochitlan, but I wanted to quell the resistance as fast as I could. They will pay for this.

230 One swordsman takes out a jag, becomes elite. A spartan finishes off the archer, and a horse from Utica kills the jag that stole my worker, but the worker is gone. A spartan finishes off the last jag, becomes elite. One of these turns, don't remember which one, I use a captured Aztec slave to build a colony on the spices SW of Teo. Didn't need them, I already have them from Persian lands, but it is an instant road that connects the city, should help reduce unrest with the luxuries coming in.
210 Hippo finishes market, starts on horse. My people expand my palace again. I attack Tlatelolco, regular sword kills one spear, becomes vet, then a vet horse loses 3hp before withdrawing, knocking 1hp off his spear. Another horse attacks and loses 3hp before killing his spear, and finally another horse kills his last spear, capturing the city. I was right, the culture border is gone, and now I can trade with Germany! I offer iron, horses, and currency for Dye. I hate to equip the Germans, of all people, like that, but they are on another continent, and Cirta is pretty defensible, surrounded by mountains, so I think I am safe. Besides, if they attack me, they lose their resources.
190 I learn the secrets of Republic from the Great Library. This is decision time, do I push to finish Chivalry before the QSC ends, or hold off so I can do more upgrades. I have three cities finishing horses next turn (4 after I mm Sabratha). If I leave things as they are, I will finish Chivalry next turn, but only have the money to upgrade 2 horses, and those 4 cities will switch to knights. If I wait, I will have more horses, and more money to upgrade with. I decide to hold off, and drop science to 30%, getting Chivalry in 2 turns, but going to +43 gold.
170 Hadrumenten builds a courthouse. Utica, Theveste, Sabratha, and Rusicade all finish horses. I have 269 gold, and can drop science to 20% and still finish, giving me 65 more gold, enough for 4 upgrades at Utica. Teoutican should fall the turn after. Carthage will finish Sun Tzu in 14 turns.

End of Twelfth set of ten turns: I still have 4 workers and 24+ slaves, 2 warriors left (at Cirta), 5 swords, 10 horses, 18 spartans and 4 galleys. I have a total of 23 cities, my score is 817. My rivals are as follows: China 531, 13 cities, Iroq. 392, 9 cities, Aztecs 370, 4 cities, Greeks 263, 6 cities, Germans 237, 4 cities, and Persians 189, 1 city. Aztecs are at war, Iroquois is annoyed, the three on the other continent are all polite, and Persia is still furious.

The Glorious Kingdom of Hannabaline, 170BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/JustusII_C2e_bc170_cut.jpg

Justus II

Feb 26, 2003, 11:16 PM

Some comments on the other timelines posted:

Hotrod: Sounds like the other continent was far mor advanced than in my game, any idea why that was? I practically had to drag them into the middle ages, yet they were there and had a couple of techs by the same timeframe (actually earlier, 710BC) in your game. Did one of them get the Great Library, or Colossus? You made contact much earlier with them, IIRC, maybe the trading helped them advance though the ancient age quicker?

Charis: I was wondering what the 2-city strategy was, but 15 cities in one block of turns is fast. Definitely increased the value of the Pyramids. Also, you are getting much more value from the Great Library, I captured it in time to get probably 3-4 techs, especially since I wanted to research Chivalry myself. I have a couple of questions though, does it always save a turn if you revolt from the box on discovering a tech? I wondered if that made a difference, but thought maybe it was just my imagination. If so, I probably cost myself a turn this game. Also, is it empire size that determines the length of anarchy, and if so is there a way to predict it? I know the earlier I did it the shorter it seemed, I thought it was related to time/tech/ maybe size, maybe random, and maybe just my imagination that I am more impatient with a large empire ;)
Timing the GA and government change is always one of my most difficult decisions in the ancient age (when I have an ancient UU), but I really think too much of the GA is wasted in despotism. Also

Meldor: Capturing the Lighthouse is more useful than the colossus I think, unless you are going to put an FP down there, the colossus was corrupted away to nothing in my game. The lighthouse will help in exploring for islands though. Even though the other civs can be reached without astronomy/GLH, I could only access 6 luxuries, I'm guessing the other two are hidden on some deserted islands like the Slave Island. Lighthouse would help to find them.

flexo

Feb 27, 2003, 04:03 AM

ok reposting my fourth timeline ...

** FOURTH REPORT START **

0750 bc 1
Tenochtitlan builds the great wall. Carthage puts out another Hoplite. Sci > 80% Construction in 10t

0730 bc 2
I take a look inside america, and is asked to leave. I leave.

0710 bc 3
Nothing much happens. So Monty doesn't want to sell me Construction but a few turns later he has sold it to everyone (that had nothing good). Gotta love them foreign aid packages the AI sends to eachother.

Trade:
[Ame] Construction + WMap + 3 = Ivory + Philosophy
[Azt] Spices = Philosophy + 10g + Ivory (not so good deal, but i need the happiness)

Sci > 100% Feudalism in 14t (-4 gpt : 304 in hold)

0690 bc 4
Made a misstake there to lower luxery, riot in Carthage. But the people love me anyway and build me a small hut.

0670 bc 5
Leptis Minor|Carthage builds Hoplites.

0650 bc 6
nothing but movement.

0630 bc 7
Utica builds Hoplite.

0610 bc 8
Sabratha|Rusicade|Carthage builds hoplite.

0590 bc 9
A look reveals that the Iroquois knows three other civs.

0570 bc A
Athens builds the Pyramids

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc0570.sav **

0550 bc 1
Carthage|Hippo builds hoplites.

0530 bc 2
nothing.

0510 bc 3
Oea|Leptis Minor builds hoplites.

Iroqouis start building Great Library so time to sell it before it becomes completely worthless.

Trade:
[Azt] Litterature > 53g + world map
[Ame] Litterature > 24g + world map

0490 bc 4
Carthage builds hoplite. Magna culture expands. I declare WAR with America after they refuse to give me free lux.

0470 bc 5
Utica|Theveste builds hoplite. Lux > 80%.

Attack on Boston: (attacker vs defender)
Swordman (0/3) vs Spearman (1/3) - loss
Swordman (1/3) vs Spearman (0/3) - win
Spartan (1/4) vs Spearman (0/1) - win > ** GOLDEN AGE **
Spartan (0/3) vs Warriror (1/3) - loss
Spartan (2/4) vs Warrior (0/3) - win
Spartan (1/4) vs Warrior (0/1) - win > ** ELITE **

Capture Boston, Capture two Settlers (or was it one settler, two workers, I didn't see). New american workers move up to cut down the jungle around Leptis Minor.

0450 bc 6
Persepolis builds the great lighthouse. Sci > 100% Engineering in 11t. Rusicade builds Hoplite.

Going out on a limb here: Leptis Magna change TGL > Sun Tzu. (TGL finished in one, Sun Tzu in 20t).

I could score some easy point by building the library, but I don't really need it. We are already in the second age. All I will get from it would be mon+rep+mono+cav+the+education. Out of which I really only need Cav to rule the world (i hope). If I switch to Sun Tzu I get veterans and one turn healing all over the continent (once it is mine). I could probably finish the TGL and still manage to build Sun Tzu. But if I change now I'll get it sooner.

0430 bc 7
Carthage builds Hoplite. Upgrade what I think is my last warrior (found standing guard in Leptis Magna).

0410 bc 8
The people love me and build a second floor on my hut. Sabratha build hoplite.

Outside Boston:
Swordman (1/3) attack American Warrior (0/3) - win
Spartan (2/5) attack Archer (0/3) - win
Spartan (1/4) attack Archer (0/3) - win

0390 bc 9
Carthage in Riot! as it moved to size 10. Oea builds worker

0370 bc A
Carthage|Leptis Minor builds Hoplite

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo_QSC_C2e_bc0370.jpeg

** SAVE: flexo_QSC_C2e_bc0370.sav **

0350 bc 1
Utica|Rusicade builds hoplite. Hadrumetum rush temple (1 citizen).

Swordman (1/3) - Archer (0/3) outside Boston. > Veteran

0330 bc 2
Hopelite defends himself outside Boston > Veteran promo.

Carthage build hoplite. Haderumetum builds temple.

Battle of Philly'
Swordman (0/3) - Spearman (1/3) - loss > Veteran
Spartan (2/4) - Spearman (0/3) - win
Spartan (0/4) - Spearman (2/2V) - loss
Spartan (0/3) - Spearman (1/2V) - loss > Elite
Spartan (0/4) - Spearman (1/2E) - loss
Spartan (3/3) - Spearman (0/1E) - win
Capture Philadelphia.

That was a slaughter I hadn't hoped for. Stupid american spearman sure did manage to hang in there.

0310 bc 3
Theveste builds hoplite.

0290 bc 4
Forest choped at Oea. We lost our (aztec) spice supply. Carthage|Hippo builds hoplites.

Swordman (3/4) attack Archer (0/3) outside Philly - win

Attack on the american capital.
Spartan (4/5) - Spearman (0/3) - Win
Spartan (2/4) - Spearman (0/3) - Win
Spartan (0/4) - Spearman (2/3) - Loss
Spartan (3/4) - Spearman (0/2) - Win
Spartan (0/3) - Warrior (3/3) - Loss
Spartan (0/3) - Warrior (2/3) - Loss

CrAP! I didn't manage to take the city. Not good. Please don't let him have a barrack in town.

0270 bc 5
Resistance in Philadelphia has ended. Riot in Leptis Minor|Sabratha. Bring Lux > 10% to try and prevent further war riots.

Spartan (2/5) kills warrior (0/4)
Spartan (2/4) kills spearman (1/3)
Washington has fallen to the Spartan Hoplites. Liberate 1gp. Capture one settler. I use one of the workers to build a colony in the mountains.

0250 bc 6
Carthage|Sabratha|Rusicade hopelite. Washington resistance come to a quick end. Sci > 60%.

0230 bc 7
Sci > 90% (Invention in 14t) (-6gpt 258g treasury). Utica|Leptis Minor builds Hoplite.

Trade:
[Azt] Engineering > Spice, 3 contacts, WM, 30g
[Gre] Engineering > WM + 81g + 6gpt

The new civs had monoteism and republic. But they want Feudalism for it. Fearing a wonder cascade i'll hold it.

Spartan (0/3) attack Spearman (3/3) by Rusicade, dies and enemy gets veteran promo.
Spartan (0/3) attack spearman (3/4) and dies. PHUCK!
Spartan (3/3) attack spearman (0/4) - Victory! Finally.

0210 bc 8
Carthage builds hoplite. Movement with my hoplites to close in on New York.

0190 bc 9
Nanking in China builds the Great Library.

Battle for New York
Swordman (0/4) - Spearman (1/3) - Loss
Spartan (2/4) - Spearman (0/3) - Win
Spartan (3/3) - Warrior (0/3) - Win
Spartan (4/4) - Spearman (0/1) - Win

New York razed (crap! didn't want that). Capture 3 workers and one settler. Leptis Minor change to Settler and Hurry it (1 citizen).
Americans are not wiped out. I Wonder where they are?

Spartan (3/3) defends from a archer (3/3) attack
Archer (1/3) kills named Spartan.

170 bc A
Carthage builds Hoplite. Leptis Minor builds Settler.
Spartan (3/4) kills Archer (1/3).

** SAVE : flexo_QSC_C2e_bc0170.sav **
** FOURTH REPORT COMPLETE **
** END OF QSC2 Q2E **

Game over. No domination. I thought I had wiped the Americans here but apparently they had managed to escape with a settler on a galley. I continue to play for domination but not having such a detailed timeline.

No last screenshot but it was basically the same as 370bc except I had taken Philadelphia and Washington, accidentally razed New York.

For the interested the future conquest order was Persia > Aztec > Iroquois > Greek > German > Greek (didn't manage to completely finish the off).

Report 4 save files (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo-qsc-q2e-report-4.zip)

flexo

Feb 27, 2003, 04:26 AM

The other continent lagged in tech until I changed Great library to Sun Tzu, the library was built a few turns later by the chinese. This might have been a reason why the ai:s took alot longer to smack down later.

I built lots of spartans. Why? Well I thought they had ok attack stats, great defence. An all in one troop. Sure they are more expensive than swordmen but they didn't take longer to produce (in most cities it took as long to create them as a swordman or a horseman) so i built my army of them until I was nearing chivalry when I switched to nearly all horseman (later upgraded to knights). The extra attack point of the swordman might have helped me out, but for some reason I didn't go down that road.

@Charis,
Most impressive city explosion in the end. I'd be looking forward to reading what was your master plan.

Borealis

Feb 27, 2003, 05:17 AM

Very limited 'timeline' for these turns, as the flu has made getting to the computer difficult, but I wanted to upload the saves to not slow down cracker's final calculations.

775 to 570 BC:

Aztecs start the Pyramids. Leader sent back to Carthage, as it is defensible, and we leader-build the Pyramids there in 710 BC as I won't have a good FP location for a while. Polytheism is discovered and Monarchy is researched at max. Persians build the Colossus, and start the Great Lighthouse. X-man treads too heavily on my cultural boundaries and I prepare to obliterate him.

Leptis Minor, Sabratha founded.

570 to 370 BC:

510 BC War declared on Persia. Arbela and Susa captured on next turn, along with many foreign workers. Pasagardae autorazed due to size and culture. Rusicade founded on former Pasagardae site. Aztecs get communications with Greeks and Germans, and the tech lead- after trading it becomes clear that they alone possess Currency. I get into a decent position by shopping Polytheism, which no one else has, around, getting communications and maps. Monty is now in the Middle Ages, but lacks governmental tech- he's either researching Republic or waiting for someone else, as Polytheism went for a good price. We will have Monarchy in 3 turns, and hopefully the Gardens soon after. I might wait to revolt, as the Persian archers near Hippo might trigger a GA I don't want.

370 BC to 170 BC:

Persians do indeed trigger the GA, and I decline to renew the peace treaty with Abe. He only has archers, which will slow my worker development until my swords return from their successful assault on Persepolis, capturing the Colossus. X-man has nothing useful to give me, so I wait on peace. I revolt immediately when I get Monarchy, not wanting to waste the GA on despotism with scattered cities... drawing 4 turns of anarchy! :D Neo-Carthage becomes a Monarchy in 250 BC. Great wonders started in Carthage and Theveste, as no one else is building, providing a good window of opportunity to grab some. Galley with American settler on it destroyed in 190 BC, eliminating Abe from contention. The other continent is now in the Middle Ages, and Monotheism is held by 3 civs, making it good to buy when I get the gold. No one has Literature- I might pick it up for trade value after I get Feudalism, but with domination as the goal it's best to leave it as both Germany and Greece would get cheap Libraries and faster tech, making them more difficult to conquer. We have three luxuries, with a fourth online as soon as New York expands culturally, and are currently selling Ivory to the Aztecs- this deal can be cancelled as soon as a significant number of swords get up there. After the GA, production will switch to horses for a knight upgrade.

The zipped saves are here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Borealis_QSC_C2e_lastturnsetsaves.zip). No screenshot as being on dialup via the family's only phone line limits online time.

hotrod0823

Feb 27, 2003, 08:43 AM

Justus: I don't recall if they built the Collossus or the GL, I know the pyramids were still around for my last set of thirty and I grabbed them with a Great Leader during my first war with the Aztecs. When I made initial contact I did pull all the AI to parity. That was how I was able to get all the contacts the same turn, by trading contacts (something I normally don't do), and tech for contacts. It also helps that the 2 scientific civs are on the same continent. I know that I traded the last Ancient tech to Germany and pushed them to the Middle ages. The Germans free tech was different than Greece and all of a sudden they traded and I was down, Monotheism and Feudalism. Pulling the AI along is probably :smoke: in a domination game.

Justus II

Feb 27, 2003, 08:51 AM

That's interesting, that they got different free techs, I didn't realize until the last GOTM that that was even possible, when someone (DaveMcW I think) posted about it. Now I try to check for that. I don't believe they did in my game though. As for pulling the AI up, I think there are times it is good, and times not. If you have the GL, it can help to bring them up to your level so they can research for you. I did it, selling/gifting the last few techs to the greeks so I could buy monotheism, but I was already closing in on Feudalism, and wanted to go straight for Chivalry.

flexo

Feb 27, 2003, 11:24 AM

Getting another free tech. I have only had that happend to me once while playing a scientific civ. Only once durring well more than a year of playing. So it doesn't happend all that often.

Justus II

Feb 27, 2003, 12:06 PM

I remember reading in one of the posts, it is like 90%+ to be the standard (top-line) tech, but it can happen. Worth checking on, I guess.

Skyfish

Feb 27, 2003, 02:16 PM

Justus, you are totally right Dave used it in GOTM15 to get avery fast Space win.

Justus II

Feb 27, 2003, 10:43 PM

I thought it was him, I just couldn't remember where I read it. I think even someone from Firaxis commented on it, saying it was intended to be truly random, which tech was free, but got a glitch in programming, and almost always picks the first tech, but on occasion other ones get through.

Singularity

Feb 28, 2003, 04:10 AM

Yup I read that it was a glitch, and the next patch for both civ3 and civ3x will have a fix for that - making scientific civ's much better IMO.

Cudos to your endgame Charis! I never would have thought it possible to expand that rapidly in an emperor game from only 2 towns in thirty rounds.

Reading some of the emperor timelines here, while playing the same map on regent, truly has given me plenty of new angles on opening game strategy. Scouting, initial production and citizen micromanagement being the most valuable insights.

I'm very interested to see the last chart as the different strategies will only come into effect around now - with unit choices, goverment and who attacked where first. I've allways had a passive play starting strategy in civ, more reacting to what my neighbours do or do not - than forcing them to my strategy. Actually I've never been in a game where all the civs where either cautious or annoyed at me before late in the modern ages.

The rush of taking a leap of faith early in the game has actually made this game much more exciting than I thought it could be.

flexo

Feb 28, 2003, 05:03 AM

@Singularity
Looking at some of the regent maps and timelines, it appears you had an easier time when it came to combat. Several of you had conquered alot (ok some of us had to, me almost being the exception only capturing america).

Justus II

Feb 28, 2003, 08:27 AM

I am looking forward to the final tables also, though I will be out of town until Sunday. I hope to finish this game through domination, to see how much longer it would take, but with GOTM XVII starting, I will have to squeeze in the time!

flexo

Feb 28, 2003, 09:27 AM

I have already reached domination victory, but for once I am going to hold off until we have seen the last data compilation by cracker before going down that road.

It took a while but it worked.

cracker

Feb 28, 2003, 10:29 PM

Here is the final data table up to and including turn 120.

When you look at the table, note that I have added a second set of totals and subtotals where the Technology research costs have been equalized to the Regent Level tech costs. This is not 100% a fair comparison because in reality the Emperor players did have to deal with the effects of these increased costs in most cases.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC_C2table0170bc1.gif

I still plan on doing some more data analysis on these games but I am being called away by several last minute acts by our friends in the software biz.

Good luck to you all in Gotm17-Carthage.

flexo

Mar 01, 2003, 01:36 PM

ok some final thought here then before I start my gotm17 tomorrow.

What should I have done differently?
1. Started war earlier. I got over taken by everyone that did.

2. Perhaps not built so many spartans, 33 might have been a bit to many, but with that golden age i was producing them every second turn.

3. Still think I made the right decision in not building the GL, instead going for Sun Tzu. Even thou this led to that China got a tech boost out of this world. Which made the others got boosts to.

I had a good start but then I hit the wall, I peaked to soon ;(

Anyway this was great fun, I'd love to do it again.

-------------
here is my domination save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/flexo-qsc-c2e-domination.zip)

And a quick timeline for it, with out much details just the important highlights.

250 ad > chivalry
270 ad > wipe out persia
900 ad - war with iroquouis, the chinese had attacked me a few turns earlier.
1000 ad the last aztec city is captured
1040 I controll the start island.

(iroq had escaped with one city out on the small middle island)

1530 germany is history
1535 last greek city captured.

only me and china left now.

DOMINATION VICTORY
1540 AD

score 4916

good for me cause the chinese already had replacable parts
and industrialization. Which wouldn't have been a funny combo
for my Cavalry.

I changed to Monarchy once I got it. Then I never bothered
to change gov. I didn't need the science boost vs war riots.

meldor

Mar 02, 2003, 12:46 AM

Just for the record, my game finished with Domination in 1340 AD and 5841 points.

The slow tech pace was maintianed as no one, including me made it out of the Middle Ages. I was the closest, as I was researching the last tech as the game ended. Next came the Chinese wfo were 3 techs behind me.

flexo

Mar 03, 2003, 09:11 AM

I knew I should have tried to slow down the tech pace ... I was kinda shocked seeing that China was 2 techs I didn't have (more worrying was that they where replacable parts and industrialisation). Luckily I triggered domination that turn so I didn't have to take Mao out.

Very few comments to the last stat round. Everyone playing the new GOTM or what?

@Meldor, ok so 200 years earlier = ~900 points.
Which way did you go? Did you go over to China, or did you go up the island and over at the grecco-german side?

I'm thinking the first (china) might have actually been the best since my core production facilities where there. If I had just built a port there I think I could have shipped them over faster.

Naturally I went the other way, first I went to the "small" island with 5-6 cities on it and took them out, then I tried to squeeze the greece (and that took some time), then the germans, followed by the greek cities that where almost surronded by the chinese. Then it was sweet domination! :)

How exactly do you slow down the tech pace? OK no research at all on your behalf (just get the bare essentials and then go for gold), or perhaps 10% research for that slow learning process. Declare war on the others so they build troops requiring gold, ie less gold for research. With hold contacts from the enemy if possible. Are there more ways?

Justus II

Mar 03, 2003, 09:32 AM

I am still playing it out, at 350AD, have the home continent minus 1 hostage persian city. I stopped research after Chivalry. I think I will go for the Germans next, avoiding the Greek Hoplites. Germany plus the small island should be enough for domination, or pretty close.

hotrod0823

Mar 03, 2003, 09:50 AM

Flexo: I don't want to speak for Meldor but I think that from his early round he made the choice to follow the AI up the tech ladder rather than go a different path and trade 2:1 deals for tech like the rest of us. Chosing to research IW vs. Math or Writing for example. Trading Tech for Tech gets you much needed techs quicker to move throught the ages faster but also pulls the AI allong quicker allowing pikes and knights that much sooner. By not pulling the AI you can prolong the horse/swords vs. spears period and the Knights/pikes.

From the getgo Meldor was behind in tech by choice and was able to use that to his advantage. I haven't finished the game yet, hope to this week. My game is in the Middle ages and I am fighting Aztecs pikes with knights. I think it is only 30 AD or soo I can't remember exactly.

QSC score may not be a true representation of speed to domination.

Hotrod

flexo

Mar 03, 2003, 10:11 AM

@JustusII
Don't know how large Germany is in your game but that starting island was in my game divided by china (about half, greece and germany shared the other half).

I had to take half that island + small island + start island for victory. The only mini island I didn't take was one far into the dark that china had found. Could have been more islands out there in the dark I guess, I never did get a full map.

@Hotrod
Yes, researching what the computer is researching, that is a good one to. Then they don't get that knowledge bonus for others already having the tech. All you have to do is to predict what they will research, or research something you know that they have.

hotrod0823

Mar 03, 2003, 10:21 AM

Follwing the AI will also decrease your cost for that tech giving more money for upgrades, rushed projects etc.

flexo

Mar 03, 2003, 10:30 AM

Yes. So to add to the points what have I learned from this:

# Trying to rush the tech tree is not always the best way to go.

Could be cause previously I have run mostly peaceful games with little war and heavy on defence. Think it is only in the last 3-4 GOTMs I have been trying to expand my war mongering ways. Max tech research is something that has just hung in there since then I guess.

meldor

Mar 03, 2003, 12:13 PM

I did two things that helped slow the tech down. First, I followed them in research staying behind them by not going all out. This allowed me to buy techs at 2nd civ prives pretty cheap and then trade them for the other techs I didn't have that would have been passed around pretty quickly. I therefore made back the money I spent on my "useless" research and kept the tech pace slower. The second thing I did was too pre-build for the GL and then snag it. This allowed me to totally turn off research untilthe Chinese finally sold Education. I then began following them up the tech tree and when I finally attacked them, I went ahead as all of their research came to a stand still.

My conquests went a different direction than I had originally intended, but I changed it once I got a world map and got the complete picture. The first to die were the Americans. The second were the Persians. Both of these civs were taken out using swords, and there weren't any horses running around the landmass. I switched to horsemen to take out the Aztecs as I knew that Knights were just around the corner. The Persians were nice enough to kick off my GA by attacking with an archer right after I had switched to republic. I hand built the FP in Washington, as this gave me a big poost quicker. I had planned on moving the palace slightly north at a later date but didn't get a leader to be able to this until after it didn't matter. IIRC, I only got 3 leaders the whole game and two were used on wonders and one for a knight army. Persia was left with one city in the Iroquois lands and they gave me a city on one of the islands. The Aztecs were left with one city on one of the islands and also gave me a city there.

At the end of the Aztec conquest knights came in. I had more than enough money to upgrade my 20+ knights as I was spending nothing on research. I immediately went after the Iroquois and kicked them of to another city on one of the islands. I also got a city from them down there as well. About the time I had finished off the Aztecs, the Chinese had finished the Germans and started in on the Greeks. I gave the Greeks plenty of support to slow the Chinese down by giving them critical techs and supplying them with free luxes. By the time I had finished off the Iroquois and the last Persian city (they had lost their island city to the Aztecs) I was ready to hit the Chinese. The Chinese had taken their complete island but they had not built up the culture so their were gaps in their lands.

I loaded up Caravels and shipped over all of the knights that had taken out the Iroquois and Persians. I took all new knights and put them in a city to the east with caravels ready to ship them to the other end of China (the developed end). I thought I was going to have to wait for some agreements to expire, but China got nervous with 20+ knights and 5+ Muskets in their midst. After they declared war, I took the nearest city and let the Chinese attack. This did two things. It allowed me to rush a barracks and Harbor, and they pulled all of their troops east to attack me while I waited to upgrade to Cav. Once Cav hit, I upgraded all the knights in the new city. I also upgraded all of the knights waiting to be loaded. My new Cav with the Knight army proceeded to take all of the former lands of Greece and then the units on the caravels landed at the other end. Attacking from both ends finished the Chinese off. Unfortunately, they came sueing for peace and I hit the wrong button when they were down to 4 cities. I then was going to be forced to wait 20 turns to finish them off. (I know I could have reloaded but I hate to do that for any reason, call it a random event). The caravels that were ferrying troops across to China then set sail for the islands. The Iroquois were down to one city, the Aztecs down to 2, and the Greeks held two. The closest was the Iroquois so I proceeded to take their only city. The interturn gave me domination. So, my misclick added about 5 turns to the game geting the troops to that one city. (+/-5 as I wasn't paying attention to border expansions in cities were I was rushing temple and libraries).

So, as a short answer after that, I left the piddle on the islands and hit the Chinese from both ends. Something the AI can't handle.