View Full Version : Unit Promotions


Thunderbrd
Oct 08, 2011, 06:00 PM
So we've overcome our limitations here and have worked out how to create new promotions.

Awesome!

Being a fan of the FFH2 mod, I feel this is a huge area we could really develop out for C2C and its very deserving of such efforts.

Here are some ideas I have for new promos (and I'm not making demands here, nor am I suggesting I'd like these simply done without being prepared to help in some way... it seems as if it'd be a fairly repeatable and learnable process to figure out how to create these.):

Anti-Espionage: Let me say in this that I don't feel rogue units should be considered melee units at all but rather should be their own unit types and for lack of a better word, Espionage comes to mind even though that's the realm of the spies (and since there is overlap, perhaps the spy itself should start behaving more like these pseudo-military, hidden nationality, able to enter enemy territory, largely hidden units). Assassins and Rogues and such are early powerhouse units and provide a fun layer of play that becomes less and less prevelant as the game progresses into such units being less useful on the field and more useful in political missions. Nevertheless, there should be some Anit-Espionage promos that can be accessed by Recon, Espionage, and Animal units. I'd also think the Guard style units should find access to these. This suggests they should be defined into their own category aside from just 'melee' and 'gunpowder' as well. And once again, some anti-promos for those categories could be interesting to give access to by Espionage, Melee, Gunpowder units as well.


Anti-Recon: Anyone else frustrated there's no Anti-Recon promos? Makes Hunter units too strong against military particularly in the early stages. If a stack could take a little Anti-Recon with them, that'd make for a more balanced force. I suggest Canine units and Archery units (and gunpowder down the line) should have access... pehaps not for the slower melee units.


Anti-Hellicopter: Wow... really? Still no Anti-Hellicopter unit promos? I've thought about this one since vanilla! With the introduction of the Balloon units, this becomes all the more critical to establishing some game balance. Gunpowder and Heli units themselves should have access but NOT Armor units (though I'd think Dreadnaught units could be equipped with a reactive technology that would allow for access).


Minor City Defense for Melee and Guard Units: That's right... something between the effectiveness of Combat and City Garrison so we can feel better with the promos we're putting on units we only intend for city defense, units such as spearmen, axemen, and of course, town watchmen and their ilk.


4th City Garrison lvl: We're out of whack now, with 4 city attack levels, where's the fourth city defense level?


Bombard Accuracy: A chain of promos for improved accuracy (likelihood of hitting) of unit bombard attacks (and btw... anyone notice this only deals its damage to the unit on the round AFTER you've bombarded??? That seems a bit pointless when attacking a city doesn't it? Especially with the new city defenses...)


Bombard Damage: A chain of promos for improved damage when bombarding and successfully striking.

Has anyone noticed we have a decided lack of available promotions to bombard units and that those units don't really need any of the promotions they can get?


Surround and Destroy manipulators:
- Improved Surrounding (This unit is considered stronger than it actually is for purposes of establishing surround and destroy bonus for an allied attacking unit.)
- Improved Surround Resistance (This unit is less susceptible to the bonus granted opposing forces by Surround and Destroy - negates or limits maximum surround bonus against it.)
- Improved Surround Attack (This unit increases the surround and destroy bonus by another percentage increase when it attacks - thus at the first level, say 20%, if you've gotten your surround bonus up to 60%, it goes up another 20% of that 60%.)


Bombard Resistance: Fractionalizes the damage this unit suffers when bombarded.


Trap Damage Resistance: Fractionalizes the damage this unit suffers when it takes damage from trap buildings.


Maneater: For Attackable domesticated animal units. (for that matter, I feel each animal should have a training building that allows you to build domesticated versions of that animal to attack with - a Tiger trainer for example. heh heh.) A bonus to attack non-animal units.

I'm sure I'll think of more and I know we've had great discussions going on putting forth ideas for animals to gain inherant bonuses to terrain movement etc... something I was going to suggest long ago but never did get around to in our discussions.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 08, 2011, 06:10 PM
These mods look like interesting additions to this also. Pillage Experience Mod (BTS 3.19) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442064) and Bombard Experience Mod BTS 3.19 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=440649).

The whole promotion tree does need a look at. Far to many units appear to get promotions that are not right for the unit. For example should animal units be able to get the same level of promotions as a human or android unit?

Thunderbrd
Oct 08, 2011, 06:21 PM
Those look great!

And yeah... couldn't agree more that this is an area that could use a lot of debate, discussion and brainstorming and if nicely tuned would be a big benefit for the play experience for this mod!

Hydromancerx
Oct 08, 2011, 08:51 PM
@Thunderbrd

Since you have been gone I have personally added the following ...

- Rugged Combat I, II and III (Gives Bonuses to Barren, Scrub and Rocky Terrain)
- Wetland Combat I, II, III (Gives Bonuses to Lush, Muddy and Marsh Terrain)
- Poison Tips (A single poison promotion from the Poison Crafter's Hut)
- Bamboo Armor (A defensive promotion if you have bamboo nearby)
- Riot Control (A special promotion that law enforcement units get)

I also have some I want to add in the future such as "Rhino Hide Armor".

robomani
Oct 08, 2011, 09:03 PM
I think some promotion should be gained by each units passing in the city not just the one trained in it. Why can't my high level unit grab a bamboo armour when passing through a city that produce them. The same can be said of almost all equipment promotion (not that much now but with more and more goods more are bound to be made).

Another think should be changed is letting hunter get forest/hill 3 promo not just melee.

Thunderbrd
Oct 08, 2011, 09:19 PM
I've really been enjoying the new terrain promos Hydro! And some great thoughts from both of you in addition there. But I would think it would be really difficult in the coding to offer the promo in passing you're talking about there robo.

robomani
Oct 08, 2011, 09:27 PM
weren't they using that for weapon promo in fall from heaven? Maybe its me remembering wrong, it has been a long time since I played it.

Thunderbrd
Oct 08, 2011, 09:30 PM
The way the weapon promos work in FFH2 would differ a bit from us at the moment... I could take a look at the code down the line there but it was based on resource access nationwide, rather than the goods and subsequently qualifying building to grant a free promo to a troop built in that city method that we're employing here. Their answer might be more effective for our needs too but its still going to differ a bit from what you're saying about the grabbing in passing concept I think... I'll have to take a look down the road here.

Hydromancerx
Oct 08, 2011, 09:38 PM
I think some promotion should be gained by each units passing in the city not just the one trained in it. Why can't my high level unit grab a bamboo armour when passing through a city that produce them. The same can be said of almost all equipment promotion (not that much now but with more and more goods more are bound to be made).

Another think should be changed is letting hunter get forest/hill 3 promo not just melee.

Well it works the other way. One city produces Good (Bamboo) and then it spreads to other cities which can then build a Bamboo Armourer (if you also have a tannery) whic gives a Free Bamboo Armor Promotion.

Thus old units cannot get upgraded but new units across your empire can be built with the promotion.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 08, 2011, 11:20 PM
I see it now - your units can't move because they have bamboo, rhino and kevlar armour on. ;)

If you are going to have multiple types of armour promotions then some are going to have to replace others in an upgrade path.

little_cyclone
Oct 09, 2011, 12:04 AM
I see it now - your units can't move because they have bamboo, rhino and kevlar armour on. ;)

If you are going to have multiple types of armour promotions then some are going to have to replace others in an upgrade path.

Is there any way to incorporate FFH's promotion swap system? For example ships could go into port and adopt different "crew" (ie, promotions) that offer different bonuses. That way they wouldn't have to go into an upgrade path where theres always one superior and one inferior, they're just simply there, with different attributes, for use for different situations :)

robomani
Oct 11, 2011, 02:42 AM
I donít know if it can be done, but this is how I would see promotion.

First there would be 4 type of promotion: Practical, Technical, Equipment and Special.

Practical promotions are promotion gained though experimentation. They canít be purchased with level up, they are automatically gained when requirement are met or a little earlier if battlefield promotion is enabled and the unit win a thought fight.
An example of practical promotion would be the combat line that would be awarded for X number of victories without others prerequise. Most of the present promotion would be in this category.

Technical promotions are gained mostly by studying aka purchased with XP like now. They would be less powerful than practical promotion but would serve as prerequise for some of those practical promotions and have some non-combat benefits.
Some examples:
-Fire use 1: +20% withdrawal chance VS animal units and unit in the stack take no damage from arctic terrain if there is a forest on the tile.
-Situational tactic: +5% strength and prerequise for all anti unit promotion (shock, coverÖ) (Those are practical promotion).

Equipment promotion are gained be getting access to some building that makes them and generally given upon construction to unit that are eligible. I would make them gained on arrival in city for units eligible but already existing or better make a button that let equip the unit, maybe for gold an some turn in the city (for training) Master of mana already have that button and it will be useful if more than one of the same type of equipment is available at the same time. Like bamboo armor and (I think) Rhino Hide Armor.

Lastly the special promotions would be promotion gained by event only or that are not possible to have after unit creation like a racial promotion (We donít have racial promotion in C2C but it is possible that someday some appear in alternate timeline stuff) or anything that donít fit other categories.

I hope that it give you some ideas, if you want more promotion I have many ideas, just not the knowledge to code them and sorry if my English is not that good.

Necratoid
Oct 11, 2011, 05:27 PM
Promotion Obsoletion: I can't see my unit anymore through the forest of promotions With all the new promotions and field promotions I can't click to center on the unit image anymore... eventually it blocks out the abilities of the unit and the stack of unit types and terrian modifiers are scrolling even a stack of 1 unit off above the top of the monitor. The counter is to obsolete combat 1 when the unit get 2, but have 2 give all the abilities of Combat 1 and 2 currently.

Guerrilla and fieldsman should be mutually exclusive.

Engeneering Corps... the polar opposite of Fanatic. negatives to attacking, for a bonus on defending, also each unit with this ability adds to the regeneration rate of cultural defensive bonuses in cities. Though only when fortified.

Err... robomani... that suggests that a ships crew can only accomplish on training method ever. Also, most 'special upgrades' currently in the game are equipment upgrades... or at least material upgrades. More importantly... that is going to involve insane amounts of micrmanagement.

Nightguard
Oct 11, 2011, 10:39 PM
Completely off the topic of new promotions, but still on the topic of promotions... Currently March cannot really be taken by any units except healthcare units due to the promotion requirements. Right now, March requires Medic 1, which requires Herbal Cures, which is only available to the healthcare unit line. I know late game units are given March automatically, but it's always been one of my favorite promos, and I'd love to give it to some of my troops before I get to the modern era and have mechanized infantry.

Nevets_
Oct 12, 2011, 10:02 AM
One of the big advantages to March is that it allows strong units with healer backup to attack every turn at full strength, since they are likely to heal 30% or more and unlikely to sustain more damage than that. This makes them ideal for 'farming' xp for your Generals during a siege. I think March should have an alternate requirement of Combat III, and maybe be an alternate path to getting Blitz, since if you don't need to 'rest up' between attacks it makes sense you would be able to attack more often.

One thing I really liked about the FfH mod family was the purchasable equipment you could get after you built the Master Outfitter / Smith / etc. buildings. It would be really cool if a unit without bamboo armor, or honor, or pankrator, etc. could travel to a city with the buildings that provide those promotions and 'buy' them for some gold. This would basically represent the unit being recruited and going through basic training in his hometown, then heading to your military city for specialist training / equipment.

Thunderbrd
Oct 12, 2011, 08:39 PM
One thing I really liked about the FfH mod family was the purchasable equipment you could get after you built the Master Outfitter / Smith / etc. buildings. It would be really cool if a unit without bamboo armor, or honor, or pankrator, etc. could travel to a city with the buildings that provide those promotions and 'buy' them for some gold. This would basically represent the unit being recruited and going through basic training in his hometown, then heading to your military city for specialist training / equipment.
I really like this idea too. I always had it on the long term outlook to look for the codes that create this functionality in FFH2 and see what I could do to import it. It just makes a lot of sense.

Nightguard
Oct 12, 2011, 09:31 PM
Actually, I think the Master of Mana mod has a more refined version of the equipment system, with a whole set of additional currencies that are used to purchase and maintain equipment. I'm not sure if this is a path that would work better in C2C, but it's another implementation method that may be worth looking at.

steampunk1880
Oct 12, 2011, 11:41 PM
buy quality compasses for your ships at compass: plus one movement

buy a spyglass at optics: plus one vision

buy laser sights for your gunpowder at lasers: plus one first strike

equip arquebusiers and musketmen with paper cartridges to improve rate of fire: plus one first strike

equip them with bayonettes at military science for +25 versus mounted

the possibilities are endless. it could be basically anything that wouldn't naturally come from training.

Thunderbrd
Oct 12, 2011, 11:43 PM
And gives more use for gold coming in in excess.

steampunk1880
Oct 13, 2011, 12:25 AM
Especially if they costs hundreds if not thousands for late game equipment like it should if you're equipping an entire army division as opposed to a band of thugs with clubs.

Thunderbrd
Oct 13, 2011, 09:35 PM
One thing I've considered with that too is that for military units, we genericalize... use basic unarmed soldiers then add horses, swords etc... to really work them into a definition of what kind of unit they are. You can change appearance based on promos so it could theoretically be a really good way to go!

Nevets_
Oct 14, 2011, 10:00 AM
One thing I've considered with that too is that for military units, we genericalize... use basic unarmed soldiers then add horses, swords etc... to really work them into a definition of what kind of unit they are. You can change appearance based on promos so it could theoretically be a really good way to go!

This might be hard to do for every unit, but maybe heroes could use this system. If when you 'buy' a promotion it can change your unit's graphics, we'd need 1 hero graphic per continent per age., everything else could be represented with showing additional units behind the hero.

Example: you start out with basic Joan of Arc, you have a single medieval era European figure. You buy war horses for her and now you get a second figure on horseback behind her. You upgrade her to use a musket and she changes her figure to be a renaissance European one.

EldrinFal
Oct 14, 2011, 10:16 AM
One thing I've considered with that too is that for military units, we genericalize... use basic unarmed soldiers then add horses, swords etc... to really work them into a definition of what kind of unit they are. You can change appearance based on promos so it could theoretically be a really good way to go!

I don't think I'd care for that method. And it seems like it would require a lot of extra unit designs as I don't think the engine is designed around being able to add skins, armor, weapons, etc. like other games are.

Also think that would bust Rally Points.

little_cyclone
Oct 14, 2011, 04:25 PM
Drat, sounded like a good idea up until then :(

EldrinFal
Oct 14, 2011, 04:37 PM
Drat, sounded like a good idea up until then :(

I am certainly not the final/ultimate voice in any decision on this mod, so it's always conceivable that one of the other modders might have a differing opinion. And of course, anyone could always make their own mod-mod or module and make it available for people as an optional add-in. :)

Civ IV is a GREAT game. But it isn't designed to do anything and everything. Having said that, there IS still A LOT that CAN be done. And C2C is really in its own Golden Age right now with the excellent modders and the amount of participation at all levels.

steampunk1880
Oct 14, 2011, 08:47 PM
Example: you start out with basic Joan of Arc, you have a single medieval era European figure. You buy war horses for her and now you get a second figure on horseback behind her. You upgrade her to use a musket and she changes her figure to be a renaissance European one.

which eventually leads us to Joan the Cybernetic Warmachine

I thought it better to have techs unlock purchisable equipment upgrades for categories of units, supplanting or even replacing current experienced based upgrades so that instead of expending a level on sentry one you purchase fine spyglass in port and it does the same thing. Sonar system gives the equivalent of sentry 2 and can see submarines.

Thunderbrd
Oct 14, 2011, 11:28 PM
I'm all for equip upgrades and making those purchaseable for each unit but I wouldn't want to see that replace exp gain and upgrades from that... both are routes to power and should reflect different kinds of power at that.

WimpyTheWarrior
Oct 20, 2011, 02:06 AM
Completely off the topic of new promotions, but still on the topic of promotions... Currently March cannot really be taken by any units except healthcare units due to the promotion requirements. Right now, March requires Medic 1, which requires Herbal Cures, which is only available to the healthcare unit line. I know late game units are given March automatically, but it's always been one of my favorite promos, and I'd love to give it to some of my troops before I get to the modern era and have mechanized infantry.

Actually, as it stands (for v18), the promotion Medic 1 is unavailable. Medic 1 requires Herbal Cures, which is only available to Health Care Units. But Health Care units cannot build Combat 1 or Drill1, one of which is a pre-reqs for Medic 1.

I edited C2C\Assets\XML\CIV4PromotionsInfo.xml, and added Health care units (UNITCOMBAT_HEALTH_CARE) for Combat 1 and Drill 1.

This does not solve your problem of March, but at least it allows you to build better healers.

An option for enabling March is, in the file C2C\Assets\Modules\OrionMods\GreatDoctorHealthCare Mod\HC_CIV4PromotionsInfo.xml, find the entry for PROMOTION_MEDIC1. You'll see the entry for HERBAL_CURES as a requirement and COMBAT1 or DRILL1 as an option. You could replace either DRILL or COMBAT with the HERBAL_CURES, so that a unit would require Herbal OR combat/drill for Medic 1. Medic 1 will open March.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 20, 2011, 02:15 AM
Actually, as it stands (for v18), the promotion Medic 1 is unavailable. Medic 1 requires Herbal Cures, which is only available to Health Care Units. But Health Care units cannot build Combat 1 or Drill1, one of which is a pre-reqs for Medic 1.

I edited C2C\Assets\XML\CIV4PromotionsInfo.xml, and added Health care units (UNITCOMBAT_HEALTH_CARE) for Combat 1 and Drill 1.

This does not solve your problem of March, but at least it allows you to build better healers.

An option for enabling March is, in the file C2C\Assets\Modules\OrionMods\GreatDoctorHealthCare Mod\HC_CIV4PromotionsInfo.xml, find the entry for PROMOTION_MEDIC1. You'll see the entry for HERBAL_CURES as a requirement and COMBAT1 or DRILL1 as an option. You could replace either DRILL or COMBAT with the HERBAL_CURES, so that a unit would require Herbal OR combat/drill for Medic 1. Medic 1 will open March.

I keep meaning to get back and fix all the health promotions, but keep getting side tracked.

So what is the suggestion(s) for what I should do?

climat
Oct 20, 2011, 02:58 AM
Removing Herbal Cures from prerequisite of Medic I
Making Combat I, II, III available for Health Care units. (Heal requires Combat III)

I think these can solve the problem although it could reduce the necessity of Health Care units.

Speaking of Health Care units, terrain promotions should be available for them.

AIAndy
Oct 20, 2011, 02:59 AM
I'm all for equip upgrades and making those purchaseable for each unit but I wouldn't want to see that replace exp gain and upgrades from that... both are routes to power and should reflect different kinds of power at that.
The Master of Mana mod has an interesting mechanic there with units being able to buy equipment (one in each category) with global yields which are globally accumulated from cities working certain plot improvements (metal from mines, lumber from lumbermills, ...).

EldrinFal
Oct 20, 2011, 09:26 AM
Removing Herbal Cures from prerequisite of Medic I
Making Combat I, II, III available for Health Care units. (Heal requires Combat III)

I think these can solve the problem although it could reduce the necessity of Health Care units.

Speaking of Health Care units, terrain promotions should be available for them.

Or remove Combat requirements for Medic??

little_cyclone
Oct 20, 2011, 12:16 PM
Or remove Combat requirements for Medic??

Why not just have Medic I require Combat I, then Medic II can require Medic I, III requires II etc..

Or alternately, regular troops can only get to Medic I, then the health care units require Herbal & Medic I to get to Medic II, Medic II for Medic III and March, so as not to render them completely obsolete..

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 20, 2011, 12:39 PM
Removing Herbal Cures from prerequisite of Medic I
Making Combat I, II, III available for Health Care units. (Heal requires Combat III)

I think these can solve the problem although it could reduce the necessity of Health Care units.

Speaking of Health Care units, terrain promotions should be available for them.

Or remove Combat requirements for Medic??

Why not just have Medic I require Combat I, then Medic II can require Medic I, III requires II etc..

Or alternately, regular troops can only get to Medic I, then the health care units require Herbal & Medic I to get to Medic II, Medic II for Medic III and March, so as not to render them completely obsolete..

Well I am not going to make health care units obsolete. In fact I would like to make them more escential.

I will probably let health care units get both Combat I and Drill I and move all main heal promotions to the herbal cures line. There are a lot of heal promotions out there mostly combined with other attributes like leadership.

little_cyclone
Oct 20, 2011, 12:48 PM
Alrighty.. I'd still like to see Medic I (if possible) able to be granted to regular troops, as kind of a first aid (or even, a new "First Aid" promotion) so as to have some kind of healing ability for early era troops..

BlueGenie
Oct 20, 2011, 03:10 PM
How early troops are you taking about?
Medic 1 isn't available until Naturopathy, or rather as early as, and with that you can build your first Healthcare unit anyway.

March though should probably be looked over and made available after, say, Combat 3 or 4 and Drill 1 or 2. My two pennies worth.

Cheers

WimpyTheWarrior
Oct 20, 2011, 07:42 PM
My vote/proposal is:

1. Remove the Combat/Drill requirements from the healing promotions. Healing units can specialise in healing without any increase in combat abilities.
2. Make Herbal Cure only an option for Medic 1, along with Combat 1. This allows combat units to pick up some basic healing capabilities.
3. Restrict Medic 2 and 3 to only heatlh care units.
4. Remove lead by warlord requirement from Medic 3.

The design intent is that combat units can perform limited care, but the really big care needs a specialised unit, that ONLY specialises in medical assistance.

I have to think a bit about where March fits in......