As with most things concerning Governors in this administration, the official Senate thread has been neglected. I am taking the responsibility of opening it now.

This thread is to be used for Senate business. Matters relating to the Laws under Senate jurisdiction will be discussed here as well as any issues concerning the Governors and their Provinces.

An election will be held to choose the Chair of the Senate. Nominations for this position will begin immediately and run until tomorrow evening (Midnight EST). Eligible candidates for the positon to Chair the Senate will be Governors only, as the Constitution states that the Senate will be comprised of Provincial Governors.

When Nominations end tomorrow night, I will post a poll in the Poll sub-forum listing the candidates. It will run for 48 hours. Between this time and the posting of the poll, it will be determined who shall be the eligible voters, The Congress or the Senate.

Untill such time when we have an elected Chairperson, Senators please feel free to discuss your issues.

Governors

North: Cyc
Southwest: Falcon02
Taliesin: Stuck_as_a_Mac
Rhineland: Goonie
Hafenland: Cheetah
Montis Abeo Gramen: Gingerbread Man
South Doughnut Coast: Ehecatl Atzin
"Sugar and Spice": Veera Anlai

You've got to be kidding me.....beat me by 6 minutes :)

Good job, Cyc! I will see if my thread can be withdrawn.

Does the chair need to be a standing governor or can it be any citizen?

It matters not in my nomination. The Senate would run smoothly with you at the helm.

I nominate Cyc.

Ill second CYC! Gotta love 16 year olds :D!

Thank you, Goonie and DZ. I accept the nomination.

I also support Cyc, he has proven to be a more than capable governor with Fanatika's interest in mind.
Now, changing the matter abit, I wish to discuss workers and their, um, ownership. If a province builds a worker, is that worker only usable for that specific province and should only move unto another one when the governor has released him. Or are workers part of the national goverment and the president has the power to use them in the nation as he/she sees fit?
I guess the real question is, who has control of workers?

EA

I believe that if a province builds a worker, it should get the chance to use it for at least one improvement. I know that would certainally get more govenors to build workers.

Well, not to change the subject matter, but...

As there was only one nominee (me), and I would have run uncontested, I suppose that makes me the new Speaker/Chairperson. Long live the Senate!

Originally posted by Goonie
I believe that if a province builds a worker, it should get the chance to use it for at least one improvement. I know that would certainally get more govenors to build workers.

But having the chance to build just one improvement seems to hardly justify the effort of building a worker, having the city that built it loose population... just to have the worker go off somewhere that in no short term helps the province that built it. There are some provinces, The Rhinelands for example, with lots of cities and therefore alot of work to be done, while others, like The South Doughnut, with just 2 cities and therefore not that much improvement to be done. Shouldn't big provinces be in charge of their own improvements while other, smaller, farther away, newly conquered cities build their workers for their own use?

EA

I'm not really sure I understand your last question, EA. I believe workers actually belong to the National Government. I don't think the Constitution clarifies who exactly the workers belong too, but it does state that the Governors are in charge of organizing tile development. Therefore, it seems that if worker action is to be done in a given Province, the governor should be setting the priorities for which tiles should be developed when and in which way. The DP is allowed to organize worker actions, but it's the Governors who decide which tiles and which improvements. There's a difference there.

I can see Gonnie's point too. And yes, more workers probably would be built if they were to do work in the province they were produced in before they were released to the State. The worker being produced in Androbius is earmarked for immediate transport to and assimilation into Kuhkaff as part of the Domestic Department's Size 12 Plan. Maybe earmarking a Worker before it is produced is the way to go about it. Say, "I need two tiles mined SW of Valhalla, so I will produce a Worker to get this done, and thenrelease it to the State (Fanatika)." What are your thoughts on a Governor doing some "earmarking"?

I think it is an excellent idea. But I do believe(as a Canadian) that at a certain point we must turn it over to the Federal govt. I believe that the stronger provinces such as Rhineland should help the small ones like SDC, that need workers, but need to build culture.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant about releasing it to the State (Fanatika). After it works one or two tiles, then a worker is realeased to the "Federal Govt.". I don't think in a deal like this that if a province produces a native worker that the DP would be allowed to swap it out for a foreign worker to do the Provinces work. This would be very hard to track and we would have to have a very trustworthy person in the DP chair. Hmmm...

hmmm...wonder where the other governors are...well, I think you understood the question quite well ;) the whole point of it was who actually has the final word on what workers do, governors or the president. I believe since the province is the one who actually built it, err, him/her, the the province should be the one who actually gets the lump sum of the spoils, sort of say. Since one of those cities will drop in population (and all that this implies) it is only decent for that province to use the worker first. Now, some provinces (larger and more established) can sustain the population drop better than others, ie recover the population quicker and build the worker quickly, while other, smaller, farther away cities tend to last longer at the building stage as well as in the recovery stage. So that worker should stay more in that province or be more usefull there before it is released into federal hands. Am I making myself understood? I'm kinda sleepy :D
Earmarking sounds like a great idea, (in PTW you can name each individual worker...) but how many actions should it do before it goes to the president? it should depend on the province and it's needs or should it be a solid, well rounded number of actions?
Now, about foreign workers..that's a whole other can of worms :lol: but also needs to be adressed, especially with our high numer of them. Do we assign them in pairs so they work somewhat more efficently? leave then to more secure provinces while national workers do more urgent work elsewhere, where jobs need to be completed quickly?

EA

EA, I believe your second paragraph is the key to this discussion. The amount of work that a Governor would be able to "earmark" a worker for is tantamount to this whole concept. That will have to be discussed by not only the governors, but by Leaders and citizens too. First, should earmarking a Worker be allowed? Second, should the earmarked work be measured in turns or improvements? This whole concept might be a tough sell to the public. As you mentioned before, the lack of other Governor involvement is very noticeable. I would like to hear from all of the other Governors on this new concept. I will put a small message in their Province thread.

hmmm...earmarking a settler...if the city is to be founded inside the province that built it, I see no problem with it, but of course, others can differ. Did you mean a settler or a worker?
I think the earmark should be measured in improvements, since some of them require more turns depending on the terrain, existing improvements, etc.
Selling it to the public..hmmm...perhaps a DP can override the worker action in an emergency. ....please define emergency :confused:
Hmmm..perhaps we should build this proposal up first here in the Senate (where it's safe, :lol: ) before we let it go into the public fangs,err..hands :)

EA

EDIT --- I use a lot if hmmmmm's
Yes, blatant spam... can't help it :D

EA

You're correct, EA. I meant earmark a Worker, not a Settler. I will change it now.

Oh, another thing, does a province has a limit on the number of workers it has at any given time? Should it? Should it not?

EA

That may be a little hard to gauge, especially with railroads being built. I would think that after Governor requests/instructions were covered by the DP, the "floaters" would be at the disposal of the DP. And that would be for roads and railroads basically, as in the North Province, over-development at this point would be harmful.

EDIT: I'm outta here. G'night.

Earmarking Proposal by: The Grand Fanatikan Senate
*All workers that are built in a province may be earmarked for 2 improvements before control is turned over to the Federal Government to be used anywhere in the nation.
*Workers are earmarked when a govenor puts worker actions for that worker under the city in which it is being built in the build queues.
*Govenors may request that more improvements be built, but this is not a guaranted right.
*For a DP to disregard any earmarking is breaking the law and shall, if proven guilty, warrant impeachment.

Presented by Govenor Goonie of Rhineland to the Grand Fanatikan Senate


Look good?

Who keeps track of which worker is earmarked and the jobs that they are due for? I don't think that there is any workable way to organize that. A possibility would be to allow the governors to specify the first job that a worker will do after it is built. No record keeping that way. As soon as the worker is finished it becomes part of the national work force.

Regarding the different aspects of control between the DP and the Governors:

Governors plan the development of their provinces. Build a mine here, irrigate there, make a road between these two cities, etc. The DP decides what work will be done. The DP must choose which jobs are done and in what order, keeping the national agenda in mind. If province development hasn't been designed by a governor the DP must also decide on how to develop the province.

So the gov's fill out the work orders and the DP fills them. If the gov doesn't fill out a work order, the DP does that too.

I agree with Shaitan. This concept would take a lot of work. My feeling is that each province should have a "Priority List" labeling the most urgent worker actions needed in the province. There should be a national Priority List as well.

This list should be based on two things: urgency of the proposed task and proximity of a worker or workers to said task. In other words, if a mine is needed in a hurry but is 7 tiles by road from the nearest worker, is it worth the loss of two turns to send a worker directly there and bypassing another need in the province?

Same would go go for a national list. An example of a national priority would be our current need to build a cross-country railway. Another may be an emphasis on mining once we reach Industrialization. Pollution will be a huge factor in the future, so this should be a national priority as well.

These lists would not only help the DP better determine the needs of our governors, but they would also work as a checklist to ensure that each province received its fair share of development.

FYI - I have asked for a Judicial Review to clarify the relationship between the Presidential and Provincial worker laws.

Great, the Senate thread is up! :D

I'm sorry I haven't posted sooner, but I had a lot to do at school :-/

I feel that the province building a worker should be able to use it for a few tasks in the province. I don't like the idea of a fixed limit, but I think the Governors should be generous and not keeping the worker to long before it is transferred to the Federal Government.

How to organise the ownership of the workers will be very problematic, as Civ 3 can't name workers.

I do have an idea that could help to solve it, though I think it won't help much: We could assign foreign workers as the property of the provinces, each nationality belonging to a province. Unfortunatly I don't see how this would encourage the Governors to make more workers.

But having just one worker action completed in the province before he goes off somewhere else seems hardly worth the effort of building him in the first place. If a province builds a worker to improve the tiles, then it doesn't seem fair to take that worker away to other places, especially when the province isn't a shield production monster and it took it some time to build him.
I agree there should be a national and a provincial agenda, but who gets to decide what should be done first and under what circumstances can the DP overide the provincial agenda, especially when those agendas aren't on the same proyect.
Assigning foreign workers the way Cheetah proposes doesn't look like a good idea, we may have 14 workers from India, but only one from Russia..who gets the russians and who the indians?
Perhaps foreign workers could work on the national agenda, as a group, and national workers in the provinces?

EA

EA, the Priority Lists would give a governor a chance to cry foul is items on his/her list were neglected for quite some time.

Take the situation we are in now for instance. While work is definitely needed across the land, our main priority as a nation should be connecting Kyoto to Padmativa by rail. This would be mostly for quick protection of our borders. That right there should be enough incentive to get any governor to sign on, IMO.

After that it would get more confusing, but with Priority Lists kept up to date, we would have a great way to monitor the progress of each province.

You have a good point, DZ, but in the first PI's I wrote this week, there was no National railroad program going as we had not discovered the use of Steam yet. The DP had workers in The North province waiting to do work, and ignored the instructions of the governor and developed other tiles, even though the Governor gave explicit reasons why that work should not be done and again requested that other tiles be developed. Please stop ignoring the fact that railroads were not part of the PI problem, ignoring the Governors instructions were.

Ok, so we begin building a priority list... how do we go about it? ho to decide what worker actions are more urgent than others? do we eartag workers to follow the list? ...by the way, can we name it Atzin's List? :king: hehehehe

EA

Originally posted by Cyc
You have a good point, DZ, but in the first PI's I wrote this week, there was no National railroad program going as we had not discovered the use of Steam yet. The DP had workers in The North province waiting to do work, and ignored the instructions of the governor and developed other tiles, even though the Governor gave explicit reasons why that work should not be done and again requested that other tiles be developed. Please stop ignoring the fact that railroads were not part of the PI problem, ignoring the Governors instructions were.

@Cyc - My apologies. :) Perhaps my saying "situation we are in now" was a bit misleading. Actually, my comments in my last post had nothing to do with the PI currently in progress, and I should probably watch how I word things during this delicate time.

I was merely illustrating how the Priority List would work, and things to watch out for.

You mean kinda like that worker we had going in Androbius, DZ?

Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin
Assigning foreign workers the way Cheetah proposes doesn't look like a good idea, we may have 14 workers from India, but only one from Russia..who gets the russians and who the indians?
Perhaps foreign workers could work on the national agenda, as a group, and national workers in the provinces?


To explain my idea a little better I would like to continue your example:
As we have 14 indian workers I would assign them to a big and undeveloped province, which would be in greater need of worker actions. The lone russian worker could be joined by the 2 roman and one persian worker we have, and we could send them to a smaller or more developed province.

I realise that this in no way is a very good solution, but it is one that is possible to organise. If anyone has a better way that can be done, I am listening.

As a Governor of Fanatika, I request that all other Governors please go to the PI threads and post your opinions. The issues in these PI's concern Governor rights and should be addressed by the Governors. Please do not let the Mods in the game overpower you. This is your chance to speak up and be heard. Your rights are on the line.

As a governor, i set bizen to build two workers, and gave them specific instructions to improve the land around bizen. What do I get?

my orders are completely ignored

Then post your added evidence in the PI threads. I posted two worker instructions and had one done, so I dont feel too badly exploited.

Yes, that's right. Off to the PI threads, both of you. The strength of the Governors of Fanatika may be dwindling from non-involvement. We don't want to let our guard down as Governors, as this will also weaken our stance as Senators.

But don't forget to continue the discussion here. Finding CT guilty or innocent is one thing, finding a solution to the problem is quite another.

I would like to continue pushing for the eartaging idea, that way, governors are secured their province improvement, regardless of the national agenda.
The national agenda will then see when that worker goes back to it's native land to do another improvement (if it indeed does return). If the province wants more improvements done and the governor doesn't want to wait his turn to come up in the n.a. (national agenda), then all he has to do is build another worker, have him ear-tagged for his 2 or 3 actions, and then release him into the nation. If he can wait, then the federal gov'ment will get to him sooner or later.
Hopefully, those governors with no patience for the n. a. will beef up the national work force and those governors with patience (or without the resourses to build worker after worker) will benefit from the workers in the n.a.

EA

I agree on the eartaging idea, but how shall it be done? We can not name workers here as in PTW.

Actually the best thing for you to do, is participate in the PI threads, so you can nip the main problem, of Governors being ignored, in the bud.

I don't think there can be any workable system for marking a worker as belonging to a province. A workable idea is to specify an action for a worker to complete when it is built. That is possible for the DP to do. Once a worker has completed an action there is no reliable way to keep them under separate jurisdictions.

Well, unless the governor has a very wathfull eye on the workers, know where "his" workers are and what are they doing.
Know when his 2 or 3 actions are up and ensure they are released to the DP. I know ptw offers the facility of naming units, but that only makes it that much more important that governors keep an eye on what's happening in their province.

EA

I've got an idea that may work WITHOUT a law change.

If some governors like the idea, I will create a thread somewhere in the forum - likely government - to ask all governors to post the priorities they have for their province. Along with those, I will post national priorities. After lists have been recieved from all governors, I would go through and create a single list of all worker needs, with more urgent ones at top.

On this list, each province would recieve 3 top priority spots. Workers would be dispatched as soon as possible to those places. Only after projects with top priority were finished, workers would be sent to those marked with next on the list.

A few notes: projects noted would me more general (i.e. 'Irrigate some tiles near Tokyo). Each project would be marked in a priority category (extreme, important, medium, etc.).

Thoughts?

I think we need more discussion on this point by the Governors, Octavian X, but thanks for the offer.

HAHA!
Finanly a Senate where stuff is discussed and the senators support each other and stick it up the other branches of Government!! I tried this about every term last game and got nowhere! Go Govs.

Anyway, for my part I think OctavianX's idea is worth a whirl. I can only think of two problems.
The first is one we almost always face with Governors, there are those who 'love to Gov' and will always present a long list of detailed worker assignments and then theres the others, you know the type of which I speak. (correct me if this is currently not true...) I think it there would have to be an established system for deciding worker actions in lieu of Gov's instructions. This must not revert to 'oh, the Dom department will take care of it' as this strips the rights and the function of the Senate and governors away.

Which brings me to my second point. The utmost care must be taken to assure the instructions of the Governors, when given, are followed as much as is possible, and no excuses are made.

Woohoo, go Senate

I could take care of the first of your concerns my coming up with a few urgent tasks in each province. That would not be a problem.

The second could be settled easily enough if Chieftess (or DP) likes the plan and agrees to abide by it.

I would like to talk about the power of the Senate. What power do we have?

Just to post a note here, Octavian. In the Turn Chat Instructions, I have listed the three tile improvements most need at this time for The North Province. Actually, the second tile listed needs two improvements to be complete and effective.

Goonie, it's really easier to read the Three Books on this matter. You can start with Article E of the Constitution. Then go to Section D of the CoL. You can find governors listed under line R of the COC. The Senate Forum is actually not listed in the Forum Organization Section of the CoS. Maybe we can get that changed this Term. There's a start! :)

The Term 6 Chief Justice has posted the following in the PI #2 thread:

If there is proof that Chieftess acted in a way directly opposed to the instructions provided to her by Cyc (or any other governor), then she should be found guilty of this charge. However, if she is found guilty simply on the grounds that she did not act fast enough, or that she performed a task that was not requested, then we will be establishing a most dangerous precedent.

What this means is that according to the Chief Justice, the DP can go into any Province and disregard the priorities that a Governor has set up, plus do whatever work the DP wants to do as long as the DP doesn't expressly do work that is opposed to your instructions. In reading this I must pass on the message that if you do have any work that you want done in your Province, that you add a statement to your instructions that says "no other improvements should be done on any tiles in this Province other than the ones I have indicated in my tile improvement priorities". By putting a statement like this in your Instructions, you are covering all the tiles you don't want worked at this time. This will keep the DP from breaking CoL D.1.E

Originally posted by Octavian X
I've got an idea that may work WITHOUT a law change.

If some governors like the idea, I will create a thread somewhere in the forum - likely government - to ask all governors to post the priorities they have for their province. Along with those, I will post national priorities. After lists have been recieved from all governors, I would go through and create a single list of all worker needs, with more urgent ones at top.

On this list, each province would recieve 3 top priority spots. Workers would be dispatched as soon as possible to those places. Only after projects with top priority were finished, workers would be sent to those marked with next on the list.

A few notes: projects noted would me more general (i.e. 'Irrigate some tiles near Tokyo). Each project would be marked in a priority category (extreme, important, medium, etc.).

Thoughts?

That is a great idea, Octavian. Very similar to the one I introduced in post 21 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=774787#post774787) of this thread. :D

Tell you what.....if the governors are receptive to it and you want to do the legwork on it, I am all for starting a thread dedicated to this issue.

Please gentlemen. Niether one of you are senate members. The senate is in the process of dealing with this situation. Please bide your time a little while longer.

I have resorted to using tile improvement instruction maps.

(You press 'Print Screen' to take a screenshot of your province, select paste in MS paint (I actually use GIMP, because it saves jpeg) and use the insert text tool to place initials that represent what I want to be done, for those who dont know how)

they really are worth doing, taking barely any time to put together. I am also building my own workers, since not once has any worker spent even 1 turn in my province all term.

See the MAG province to see them.

I suggest that every governor make a provincial instructions map, and post it in all the places you can think of. hopefully the maps will be effective.

GBM if you make your own workers, they will just take them away from you.

I think the Senate has turned into a conspiracy thread :D
New Japan is busy making workers, and for now, I'm allowing the DP to use them as he or she sees fit. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Very good, Veera. I'm proud of you. Chieftess claims to need more workers and I'm glad you're helping her out in that regard.

My sarcasm detector is through the roof :rolleyes:

Sarcasm? Not at all. Oh, btw, doesn't Chieftess own quite a few tiles in your Province? :) j/k

Does she? I haven't kept track of the land business at all since I left it two months ago.

wow...the senate thread brought Almightyjosh out of the shadows... cool.
I'm not completely sure about the list idea, what if a province builds a worker to do an improvement because the governor doesn't want to wait for his turn to come up in the list? does he get to choose other priorities to add to the list instead of the ones he/she just had done by the newly built worker?

EA

I dislike this list buisnessas well. I believe the one improvement eartaging idea was better.

"Roxanne...." Sorry listening to the POLICE!!

So should we be concentrating on the earmarking proposal then? It seems to have died down and was replaced by the "list" proposal. Let's fire up the earmarking deal again. We've got 11 more days in this Senate, let's get something accomplished.

Yes, we should. Someone give cpr to the earmarking idea. Yes, it would be harder to keep track of the workers without the name changing bit of ptw, but a good governor is supposed to know what's going on in her/his province ;)

11 days? so soon?

EA

11 days, yes. Well, this thread was neglected for the first 11 days and it's a short month.

Alright then, we have discussed the new worker produced doing one and two improvements in its Province before being released from obligation. Which one would be better for the Province? :) Which one would be better for the Nation? :) Can there be a compromise? How will the 1 or 2 improvement obligation be monitored and verified? Will all this be the Governors job? These are the questions we, as Governors need to work on.

Since the governors are the ones that will most benefit from having worker actions in their province, it must be up to the to monitor and verify those actions. After the 2 improvements have been done, then he/she no longer has any power over that worker.

EA

Guys, if I may.......

I really think that the Priority List will be more managable, as the list will be there to hold the DP accountable. Also, now that have a rail network, there is a better chance that your needs will be met.

Also, please check out my proposal in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44881) to ensure that we make the most of our Golden Age. Any questions or comments would be appreciated.

How about a mix of the two? when a province builds the worker, it get's two improvements regardless of those in the list. After that, the worker goes into the federal list system and serves the list until the end of his days. That way, provinces don't need to wait for their turn to come up in the list, while the provinces that can't afford building a worker still get their needs met.

EA

I am the new representative of the SouthWest Province.

Two improvements still means tracking what worker did what. One improvement is manageable. Worker is built, put it on the specified job.

I really don't see how any of this is all that workable. Have any of the governor's advocating these plans ever been the DP?

SKILORD awakes! Welcome SKILORD. Will you be starting a new thread for the SW Province? Coffee and doughnuts are over here and relevant issues are being discussed now. BTW, is that a mud pie on your avatar?

I think only one improvement is workable.

Oh, I agree whole-heartedly that a Worker earmarked for 1 improvemnt in the Province they were produced in is quite workable. In fact, if this were to become a Standard, I believe the DP would find it a lot easier to fulfill the Governors' requests.

Can we go with that as a proposal then? It gives some amount of concrete control to the governor without putting an undue workload for anybody tracking workers. General worker management is still the job of the DP except for this one exception.

Well, Governors EA, Goonie, and Cheetah agree with it. I think I heard GBM voice approval long ago. Let's see what the other Governors think, I'll advertise this discussion again.

What kind of Proposal did you have in mind? One for the CoS or CoL?

I was thinking COL. A subtier definition under the one assigning tile development organization to the governors.

Yeah, that's not bad, although I think a subtier under CoL C.1.G would be more appropriate. C.1.G states the President organizes worker activities. This proposal would fit more accurately under the organization of worker activities as opposed to the tile development issue.

True, especially as it somewhat modifies the blanket authority of the Pres for that item.

Sounds good to me :)

/me pops in
Fine with me. Just gimme my mines and irr, then send them off to rr the nation.

Well, that looks like four solid YES votes. So far so good. Thank you gentlemen, for participating.

@DZ - I was originally for the Priority List proposal in the begining also. But it had few drawbacks pointed out to me, so I went with the earmarking.

Some kind of priority list is still a very good idea though. The governors can rank their improvements in the instruction threads based on what is most critical.

That sounds like a very good idea to me too. I would think that would go under the tile development law, D.1.E. Would we need two separate proposals for that (along with two separate polls)? Or could we put them together in both presentations?

I don't think a rule change is needed for a provincial priority list. It's one of those things governors can just go ahead and do.

I will probably vote yes to both proposals, but if someone agrees to one and disagrees with the other, it might be better to have two.

Maybe set up a multiselection poll:
1. Yes to "Governors one task control"
2. No to "Governors one task control"
3. Yes to "Priority List"
4. No to "Priority List"

Originally posted by Cyc
SKILORD awakes! Welcome SKILORD. Will you be starting a new thread for the SW Province? Coffee and doughnuts are over here and relevant issues are being discussed now. BTW, is that a mud pie on your avatar?

1. A new thread will appear as soon as I manage to get a look at the game.

2. No it's not, actually it's the Alternate history symbol, ripped from Del Rey's Alternate History logo.

As towards the current discussion. I have always been an advocate of giving governors complete control over workers, and once even tried to get governors a small Provincial Gaurd and a set of workers to command.

I would be willing to work with the priorities list though, it seems like a more than workable plan.

Originally posted by Shaitan
I don't think a rule change is needed for a provincial priority list. It's one of those things governors can just go ahead and do.

But what's to make this a priority list if there's no rule change/addition? What's to keep the DP from doing whatever they want in a Province regardless of what's on the Priority List? I think we may need to hear what DZ had to say about the Lists.

I agree with Cyc, if the list is to work correctly, it needs a bit of oficiality to it, not just something the governors "wip up" sort of say. If it is to a national & provincial priority list, it should be offical. I also agree with the 'one action' eartaging, it seems acceptable. Count my affirmative vote in.
Welcome Skylord :)

EA

Well, OK. It looks like we have the majority of Governors participating here. First thing I want to say is that I'm very proud that all of you have voiced your opinion, and helped us through this issue.

It seems we have 6 strong YES votes, Veera is not for either Proposal, and Gingerbread Man seems to be for a strong worker stance for the Governors, but I'd still like to hear from him. That makes 3/4 of the Senate in favor of the two proposals, the first being made part of CoL C.1.G, and the second showing early support for becoming part of CoL D.1.E.

If anyone of the Governors would like to add their comment to the second proposal becoming part of D.1.E, please make them now.

I vote YES.

This will give my province the chance to get some improvements that the Japanese didn't do.

EDIT: thats on both proposals

I think it would be better to pursue the earmarking proposal and try out the priority list without legislation. I am leary of making multiple changes in the rules for the same problem, especially when both of them together could effectively eliminate another department's specified duty and the DP's ability to manage an aspect of the game.

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
I agree with Shaitan. This concept would take a lot of work. My feeling is that each province should have a "Priority List" labeling the most urgent worker actions needed in the province. There should be a national Priority List as well.

This list should be based on two things: urgency of the proposed task and proximity of a worker or workers to said task. In other words, if a mine is needed in a hurry but is 7 tiles by road from the nearest worker, is it worth the loss of two turns to send a worker directly there and bypassing another need in the province?

Same would go go for a national list. An example of a national priority would be our current need to build a cross-country railway. Another may be an emphasis on mining once we reach Industrialization. Pollution will be a huge factor in the future, so this should be a national priority as well.

These lists would not only help the DP better determine the needs of our governors, but they would also work as a checklist to ensure that each province received its fair share of development.

This was my first post on this matter. How we could work this into law is another story.

My original intent was to have the list as unofficial tasks that the DP should strive to accomplish. The progress would be measured by which tasks came off the list.

However, I think it would be unreasonable to hold governors accountable for wanting a task outside the reach of the current batch of workers. This will become less and less of a problem as we lay rails across our country.

Let me give this matter some thought, and I will give an even better evaluation sometime this weekend.

Rhineland vote = yes.

Anyone want to work with the proposal I wrote?

I must say that I believe the best proposal so far has been Ravenfire's proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44919) His proposal guarantees that provincial governors will complete the tasks they wish as well as providing the DP with a National Work Force to complete important Fanatika-wide projects. It provides the best of both worlds, and provides the governors more latitude than the earmarking or the list proposal without restricting the DP too greatly.
Although Ravenfire's labor proposal may be a bit more difficult to implement (I think it will require the passing of new legislation) in the long run, the benefits should outweight the short term problems.

As for the current earmarking proposal, I believe that it's negatives outweight the benefits: a massive increase of workers being built for the sole purpose of completing one task before the DP takes them over. It's a lot of trouble for a task that could just as easily be done by being patient and waiting for the DP to get through the priority list. Although I see where the earmarking proposal could introduce changes, I don't see where it will actually solve any problems. New Japan's vote is no on that particular measure.

The lists... A bit more workable than the earmarking proposal. And potentially far more confusing for the poor Designated Player. It will take a lot of hard work to get it working, and I believe the benefit may be pretty minimal. Again, I believe a dedicated work force would be a more plausible answer than objectively splitting our force depending upon the job. Right now, New Japan's stance on the issue of using a Priorities List is a very firm maybe... I'll need to think about it more.

Thanks again Veera, for the input, and Goonie, and GBM, and EA.

Quoting Shaitan:
I think it would be better to pursue the earmarking proposal and try out the priority list without legislation. I am leary of making multiple changes in the rules for the same problem, especially when both of them together could effectively eliminate another department's specified duty and the DP's ability to manage an aspect of the game.
_____________________________________________

Niether one of these proposals would make a "change" in our laws. They would merely solidify and clarify the existing laws. There has been a large amount of disagreement as to the meaning of the two laws in question and these additions would help not only the citizens, but the Judiciary understand just what the laws implicate. No specific duties are eliminated by these proposals and the authority of the DP has not been deminished. By extending the writings of each law, the intent of the law is more pronounced and made easily understandable to the citizens of Fanatika. I understand your hesitation, Shaitan, but both of these additions are needed at this time.

Governor Goonie, in regards to your proposal listed below, basic changes have been made to its original concept. I have put together working proposals for each idea now on the table after yours below. The first one for Worker Action - Earmarking, the second for Tile development - Priority Lists. But yours first:

Earmarking Proposal by: The Grand Fanatikan Senate
*All workers that are built in a province may be earmarked for 2 improvements before control is turned over to the Federal Government to be used anywhere in the nation.
*Workers are earmarked when a govenor puts worker actions for that worker under the city in which it is being built in the build queues.
*Govenors may request that more improvements be built, but this is not a guaranted right.
*For a DP to disregard any earmarking is breaking the law and shall, if proven guilty, warrant impeachment.

Presented by Govenor Goonie of Rhineland to the Grand Fanatikan Senate
_________________________________________________

1. It has been deemed than a single improvement is more workable than two.
2. Workers would be "earmarked for work in the Province, not the city.
3. The priority Lists would make this a redundant statement.
4. Impeachment is a "bit" to harsh. Normal PI procedures would take effect here.

Therefore, Worker Action - Earmaking Proposal (Working Copy)

CoL C.1.G (The President) Organizes worker activities.

...............CoL C.1.G.1 When a Province produces a Worker in any
...............city, that worker can be "earmarked' by the Governor to
...............be used for any one improvement in that Province. No
...............additional work by that Worker in that Province is
...............required of the DP. If additional work is to be done by
...............that Worker in that Province, then it is to be done after
...............the work the Worker was "earmarked" for. (ie, if the
..............."earmarked" work was to irrigate a grassland two tiles
...............off the road, the worker would do the irrigating first,
...............and if the DP wanted to have road to that irrigation, it
...............would be done afterwards.)

Tile Development - Priority Lists (Working Copy)

CoL D.1.E A Governor organizes tile development in his Province.

................CoL D.1.E.1 Governors may produce and post a Priority
................List for the work to be done in their Province. This list
................can contain up to three improvements that must be
................completed before the DP is allowed to do other work in
................the Province. National Priorities, such as putting in a
................trans-continental railroad or a road to access a new
................Resource or Luxury, even supplying a road to the
................Military for unit advancement in a war, can supersede
................The Priority Lists temporarily, if justified. But if the
................Governor posts his Priority List in the Turn Chat
................Instruction thread, no other kind of tile development
................or improvement may be made by the DP until these
................Priorities are completed.

OK, as stated, these are only working copies of the two proposals at this time. Please posts comments and questions about them and state your feelings in regards to the wording of each proposal or its nature.

While I agree with Veera in her support for Ravenfire's proposal, I see no way it could come to pass in the game. Fanatika has a history of unconventionalism ;) A national plan by the DP has been tried but it just doesn't work like that, or hasn't been able to work like that. We can set up national, general plans, but nothing that includes details and step by steps. Without ptw to actually name the workers I believe this is the next best thing.
Now, Veera says the DP will have more work to do under this proposal. Note that I've never said the DP should be in charge of seeing what worker does what. It has never been my intention to beef up the DP's workload, quite the contrary, it should be governors who are in charge of seeying workers do what they are supposed to do, it is, after all, their province.
If the DP does a worker action that wasn't asked for, it is up to the governor to call him/her on it, not the other way around, so why not let governors be more responsable as well? and not just let them have the power to point guilt.
I also agree with Shaitan, the less laws the better (gotta stop reading Montiesquieu :) ) but I'm affraid that without this having a smell of officiality, it could as easily be ignored as a common post could be.

EA

Governors. I am posting a statement here that the proposed amendments to the CoL dealing with your rights have had another line added to them. It is:

If a Priority List or Earmarked work action is 4 tiles away from a road, then the worker MAY build road to the worksite, but once a road is started to the worksite, then the original Work action MUST be completed before the worker is released.


Shaitan has proposed this addition and for the sake of the proposal and to reduce futher future complexity, I have made the addition. Please post your comments. It is not a major restriction and will help the passage of the amendments. The poll will go up tomorrow if no major objections are heard from the Senate.

That would be 4 or more tiles away by road. Two tiles without a road. The point was "wasting" a turn by expending full movement into a tile that was not going to be worked.

That's kind of a ridiculous statement Shaitan. Workers are moved beyond 4 roaded tiles all the time in a game. The change stands. At the begining of a game, roads can be scarce in a new Province. Although I like to build lots of roads my self, moving through a terrain three unroaded tiles is not a major sin. Priorities are just that. If the Governor sees a problem that needs attention, he or she shouldn't have to wait for the DP to build road. That can be done after the work is completed. We are only talking three tiles of road. They are not a priority. They are other tile development that are used to increase efficiency. Big difference.