View Full Version : Ancient Golden Age Alt History Brainstorming Thread


steampunk1880
Oct 14, 2011, 08:01 AM
This is a thread for proposing techs, civics, wonders, buildings and units for the proposed Ancient Golden Age alternate history and for debate on their overall design philosophy(How it is different from its contemporary regular history)

Suggestions that are not objected to in 24 hours or whose objections have been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties go up on the list. Objects on the list will be credited to their original suggesters.

When making suggestions about technologies it is helpful but NOT necessary to also suggest what tech(s) the technology may come from and what it may lead to, what civis, buildings, wonders and what units might be attached to it or provide an involved civilopedia entry but ask that you include a note about what it entails to guide people in finding appropriate connections with other suggested techs, civics, wonders, buildings and units. Suggested format below:
Tech name
Requires:
Leads to:
Wonders:
Buildings:
Units:
Special effects:
Civilopedia:
Notes:

When making suggestions about Civics it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a technology or give it an involved civiloedia entry but we ask you to include a detailed account of what the civic does. Please refer to existing civics for examples of what can and probably should be done by a civc.

When making suggestions about wonders it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a tech or to provide an involved civilopedia entry but we ask you to include other building and resource requirements, it's proposed effects, and some notes about what it entails to help people connect it to appropriate techs. Suggested format below:
Wonder name
Requires: technology/building/resource
Effects:
Civilopedia:
Notes:

Buildings are similar
Building Name
Requires: technology/buildings/resources
Effects:
Civilopedia:
Notes:

When making suggestions about units it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a tech or provide a long civilopedia entry but we ask you to include other building and resource requirements, a detailed account of the units stats including what category it is, and some notes about what it entails to help people connect it to appropriate techs and buildings.
Unit Name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/building/resource
Stats:unit type(flying, gunpowder, high tech)/strength, speed, first strikes/bonuses or penalties/free upgrades
Civilopedia:
Notes:

The object is to get as many ideas up in a coherent list as possible and worry about putting them together later.

While we are brainstorming connections can be made in the following way:
Hey I think unit X belongs under tech Y. I agree. Me too. *relevant entries have been changed*
Hey I think tech 1 should lead to tech 2. I agree. Me too. *relevant entries have been changed*

Changes to existing entries are made in a similar fashion.
Hey I think Building A is too powerful/not powerful enough and should be This Way. I agree. Me too. Let's ask/PM the original contributor if he/she has any input about the proposed changes. Everyone agrees? *relevant entries have been changed*"
Hey I think Unit Alpha is redundant/no longer fits and should be removed. I agree. Me too. Let's ask/PM the original contributor how he/she feels about that. Everyone agrees? *entry deleted*

steampunk1880
Oct 14, 2011, 08:02 AM
Technologies

_

+++++++++
Civics

_

=========
Wonders

_

steampunk1880
Oct 14, 2011, 08:03 AM
Buildings

_

+++++++
Units

Polybolos - CREDIT: steampunk1880
Requires:.../Seige Weapons Workshop, /...
Stats: Seige Weapon/ 12 strength 1 movement 2 first strikes/+25% city defense/Starts with drill 1 and 2
Civilopedia:
Notes: a repeating medium ballista used, but not extensively, by the late roman empire. A great city defender but will be murdered by your opponents' knights in the field. I was thinking this could be top of the line ancient golden age weaponry.

FromHesse
Oct 15, 2011, 05:40 PM
well i think eastern rome/byzantine empire was a late ancient age which gives ideas for this alternative era. I can't imagine what else should be in this era. If you ever have seen which technologies the ancient romans had you are really impressed i think. 10 miles/15km from my home there is a rebuild roman castellum (Saalburg) with a roman museum. I think there could be a direct technological line into renaissance era if dark ages or medieval era never had happened.

steampunk1880
Oct 15, 2011, 06:08 PM
I propose

Unit

Polybolos
Requires:.../Seige Weapons Workshop, /...
Stats: Seige Weapon/ 12 strength 1 movement 2 first strikes/+25% city defense/Starts with drill 1 and 2
Civilopedia:
Notes: a repeating medium ballista used, but not extensively, by the late roman empire. A great city defender but will be murdered by your opponents' knights in the field. I was thinking this could be top of the line ancient golden age weaponry.

@ FromHesse. And it's up to us to slowly hammer out this techological line because that's basically what the ancient golden age is all about.

Hydromancerx
Oct 15, 2011, 06:38 PM
Sound cool. Now we would just need a graphic for it.

Hydromancerx
Oct 15, 2011, 09:29 PM
For a possible Hero unit for Ancent Golden Age it could be "Daedalus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus)" the father of Icarus who made the artificial wings to fly.

steampunk1880
Oct 15, 2011, 09:29 PM
Stats? abilities? I don't want to just throw a name up there.

Hydromancerx
Oct 15, 2011, 09:43 PM
Nevermind there is already a Daedalus hero unit. Oops! Great minds think alike I guess.

Though we could always link him to the Ancient Golden age instead of Culture (Greek). Or both.

steampunk1880
Oct 15, 2011, 10:12 PM
Do more people think linking Daedelus to the Ancient Golden Age instead of Greek culture would be a good idea?

steampunk1880
Oct 16, 2011, 09:38 PM
Moving one unit to the list. Any word on what's going on with Daedalus? Need some stats that make sense and notes about where one might put him.

Hydromancerx
Oct 17, 2011, 02:04 AM
I think I am going to leave him as he is. We can always think of a new Hero for this Era.

steampunk1880
Oct 21, 2011, 12:01 AM
Why hasn't anyone suggested this? it's in the second post in the alternative timelines thread. Somebody, anybody other than me could have looked at those and suggested stats for it.

Tech

Sailroads
Requires:...
Leads to:...
Wonders:...
Buildings:...
Units:...
Special Effects: allows construction of sailroads which look like railroads but have wood or bronze colored rails; movementX6, no hammer bonus in mines and towns and stuff, costs as much as a railroad; speeds up researching railroad
Notes: Honestly wagonways and plateways really started appearing in the late 1700's and I have never heard of greek wheeled sailing ships on tracks before it appeared in the alternative timelines thread, but it's something.

Necratoid
Oct 21, 2011, 12:53 AM
What happened is they made rollers or something and literally pulled the ships across the land for miles upon miles... sailroad would be a terrain improment that allows ships to be moved across land... theough they couldn't attack by themselves and would need to be guarded or they can be destroyed like a fort with no land units.

steampunk1880
Oct 21, 2011, 02:06 AM
well if the steampunk war train can be made to only be able to travel on locomotive tracks, could flat bottomed boats like galleys and triremes be made to allow movement on sailroads over land? If so, then can there be an extremely expensive x1 movement canal improvement available with the canal system tech? I don't know how the native terrain thing works. someone would need to pick apart that Rise from Erebus modmod unit that uses it. I think it was a mobile attack fort. Also discussion on this should probably be moved to the "map improvements" thread on the second page if there isn't a better thread for discussing stuff workers can build.

Hydromancerx
Oct 21, 2011, 03:35 AM
Why hasn't anyone suggested this? it's in the second post in the alternative timelines thread. Somebody, anybody other than me could have looked at those and suggested stats for it.

Tech

Sailroads
Requires:...
Leads to:...
Wonders:...
Buildings:...
Units:...
Special Effects: allows construction of sailroads which look like railroads but have wood or bronze colored rails; movementX6, no hammer bonus in mines and towns and stuff, costs as much as a railroad; speeds up researching railroad
Notes: Honestly wagonways and plateways really started appearing in the late 1700's and I have never heard of greek wheeled sailing ships on tracks before it appeared in the alternative timelines thread, but it's something.

I forgot about those. Yeah I saw a show about them on the history channel where they used rails to pull ships over land. Mind you where were pulled by animals and not steam power. It was more of a "rutway" or "rutroad" than what we think about as a "railroad".

ca. 600 BC - A basic form of the railway, the rutway, - existed in ancient Greek and Roman times, the most important being the ship trackway Diolkos across the Isthmus of Corinth. Measuring between 6 and 8.5 km, remaining in regular and frequent service for at least 650 years, and being open to all on payment, it constituted even a public railway, a concept which according to Lewis did not recur until around 1800. The Diolkos was reportedly used until at least the middle of the 1st century AD, after which no more written references appear.

I could see a wonder called the "Rutway of Diolkos" that gives like bonus to trade or maybe ships. Something like that, which is simpler to do than a new type of road. Maybe even a free "Rutway" to all cities or something.

steampunk1880
Oct 22, 2011, 08:39 PM
Are there any objections to what little there is on the sailroads thing. If not I'll add it to the top later.

Hydromancerx
Oct 22, 2011, 09:54 PM
Are there any objections to what little there is on the sailroads thing. If not I'll add it to the top later.

I object! :p

No but seriously I think it should be a building and not a new type of road. In other words it can be like the paved road building, but called "Rutroad" and then we can have the "Rutway of Diolkos" wonder that allows for a "Rutroad" in every city on the continent.

steampunk1880
Oct 22, 2011, 10:29 PM
Good, now we have a discussion. What does this "Rutroad" building do?

rightfuture
Oct 22, 2011, 10:50 PM
I also re-recommend adding the
Antikythera mechanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

It is a real device:

The Antikythera mechanism (play /ˌæntɨkɨˈθɪərə/ ant-i-ki-theer-ə or /ˌæntɨˈkɪθərə/ ant-i-kith-ə-rə) is an ancient mechanical computer[1][2] designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was recovered in 1900–1901 from the Antikythera wreck.[3] Its significance and complexity were not understood until decades later. Its time of construction is now estimated between 150 and 100 BC.[4] Technological artifacts of similar complexity and workmanship did not reappear until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks were built in Europe.

sounds like an alternate timeline inspiring possible device if any. I recommend adding it as a technology.

steampunk1880
Oct 23, 2011, 09:54 PM
I don't think the tech Antikythera mechanism is a good idea. The mechanism in question is just one example of the thing, like calling the automobile tech "Ford Model T" Rather there could be a tech called Mechanical Astronomical Calculators and Antikythera Mechanism could be a wonder in that tech. The problem is, scientists no longer believe it was a navigation tool leaving me to wonder what, precisely, the tech and wonder would even do. It might have been just a fancy Metonic calendar.

in any case, what do you think about it requiring machinery at the very least.

and also possibly an ancient golden age equivalent to astronomy arrived at early on in the tech line (instead of at the very tail end of the age like with the middle ages tech line)

rightfuture
Oct 23, 2011, 10:25 PM
I think the Antikythera mechanism is a great idea!
It is an invention as important as the wheel and the lightbulb.
It could have inspired a technical revolution.
And the consensus is that it is an astronomical computer, use to calculate important celestial events.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=antikythera-mechanism-eclipse-olympics
http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPVCJjTNgk
The significance of this device is incredible and could have changed history.
Please look at the material if you think it isn't compelling.
Alternate timelines are all about WhatIf scenarios.
What if this technology was commonly adopted at the time it was made?
It could have changed history.

steampunk1880
Oct 23, 2011, 10:51 PM
To reiterate: the mechanism itself is a single surviving example of the technological knowledge required to create it. Not the technology itself. I do not think it was as awesome as the wheel and lightbulb because the recovery of one surviving example of the mechanism suggests that either we were really really lucky to find the only one ever made (and therefore were not popular enough to start a revolution), or that there were thousands of them made and we found one of them (and despite the fact that there were a whole bunch of them they didn't have the effect of radically transforming ancient society).

Either way, the mechanism, while a marvel of ancient engineering, was a glorified calendar for the calculation of eclipses or a tool for astronomers. The researchers agree that for navigation it was pretty useless since it would rust solid in the sea air in the space of several months to a year begging the question: What would a tech, whatever it's called, symbolizing the mass creation of such a device do in the context of playing a game of civilization? Would it have buildings that enhance science? Would it lead to or from some form of ancient astronomy? What would it do that would make you want to research it in your game of C2C.

rightfuture
Oct 23, 2011, 11:12 PM
I'm just arguing that it could have accelerated the adopting of calculating technology a lot sooner, and that could have had notable implications.

The lightbulb was just a glorified 'lamp' and when applied properly, had a pretty noticeable affect on history.

If you don't like the idea, no big deal. Just speculating on ideas. I'm bringing it up because I thought it was potentially interesting and that other people might like it.
I thought it was a decent argument; I will back off from it.

steampunk1880
Oct 23, 2011, 11:23 PM
Sorry if i come off as pushy, I'm just grilling you to put forward an idea about what kind of stuff it would do in the context of a civilization 4 game. It's good that you have ideas about stuff to put in to the various ages but its disappointing when there isn't any substance (meaning stuff like stats and ideas on how it would fit into the age, where it might lead) to these suggestions. Just throwing names out doesn't start a discussion. I think that mechanical calendars (with the antykythera mechanism as a shining example of one) would be a pretty good idea for an ancient golden age tech as an example of leaping ahead of the middle ages when it comes to astronomy. I just don't know what precisely it (the tech and the building or wonder) should do.

Hydromancerx
Oct 23, 2011, 11:42 PM
@steampunk1880

No offense but just because you add all these ideas to the beginning of your threads doesn't mean any of it will be made. All this alternative timelines stuff is going to have to wait a long time before its made and by then much of mod could change.

Please don't get your hopes up so much. Its not that there is anything wrong with your ideas, its just they are not urgent to the game. For instance the whole flammability stuff I posted back in January 2010. It took until recently for it to be made.

It also helps to learn how to mod yourself. I learned the hard way that begging for mods it not going to get you anywhere. You have to do it yourself and help contribute if you want anything done. If people help out with your ideas then that's a bonus.

I suggest you read over the thread where Afforess went step by step with me teaching me how to mod. If I can learn how to do it then you can. You can read it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354363).

If you have any questions let me know.

I expect you to be able to make a Building before you post any more alternative timeline idea. :trouble:

EDIT: In fact you should pick a building you want to make and then use the tutorial to build it. That way you are more interested in the building you are creating and you accomplished one of your requests.

steampunk1880
Oct 24, 2011, 12:33 AM
I'll get started on that right away, not a golden age thing though. I'm thinking Municipal Computing Engine.

Hydromancerx
Oct 24, 2011, 01:20 AM
I'll get started on that right away, not a golden age thing though. I'm thinking Municipal Computing Engine.

Whatever interests you. Its much easier to learn something if the end goal is something you really want to make.

Hydromancerx
Feb 20, 2012, 09:42 PM
:bump:

Yid
Feb 21, 2012, 02:44 AM
Okay, I've got a name for the Ancient Alternate Time line: Atlantis.

According to Platons myths it was a sea power, so we could give it a ship that can travel across the ocean (but not the new deep ocean).


Unit Name - Sextireme (Sea Unit)
Requires: Seafaring
Stats: :strength: 6, 3. National Unit, Limit 15, no cargo space, -50% against animal units.
Civilopedia: The Sextireme is a unique ship of ancient Atlantis.
Notes: The Sextireme can travel through ocean but not deep ocean.

Building: Orichalcum Smith
Requires: copper, gold. Tech: Copper Working.
Effects: Production +100% :hammers: for Hero Units.
Civilopedia: According to Critias, orichalcum was considered second only to gold in value, and was found and mined in many parts of Atlantis in ancient times. in Vergil's Aeneid it was mentioned that the breastplate of Turnus was "stiff with gold and white orachalc".
Notes:

mcookie83
Feb 21, 2012, 02:51 AM
Okay, I've got a name for the Ancient Alternate Time line: Atlantis.

According to Platons myths it was a sea power, so we could give it a ship that can travel across the ocean (but not the new deep ocean).


Unit Name - Sextireme (Sea Unit)
Requires: Seafaring
Stats: :strength: 6, 3. National Unit, Limit 15, no cargo space, -50% against animal units.
Civilopedia: The Sextireme is a unique ship of ancient Atlantis.
Notes: The Sextireme can travel through ocean but not deep ocean.

Building: Orichalcum Smith
Requires: copper, gold. Tech: Copper Working.
Effects: Production +100% :hammers: for Hero Units.
Civilopedia: According to Critias, orichalcum was considered second only to gold in value, and was found and mined in many parts of Atlantis in ancient times. in Vergil's Aeneid it was mentioned that the breastplate of Turnus was "stiff with gold and white orachalc".
Notes:

Kaboom! I like! :goodjob:

(Sorry... too much coffe and to less sleep! :mischief:)

Hydromancerx
May 21, 2012, 08:36 PM
:bump:

MrAzure
May 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
Sandalpunk. This term, coined by the GURPS roleplaying game Steampunk, denotes an ancient civilization, often the Romans or some other Iron Age civilization, never collapses—with scientific advancement (based on such technologies as the Antikythera mechanism) continuint at a rate relative to later modern civilizations. Sandalpunk has also been called “Classicpunk” or “Ironpunk.”

Sandal punk is a subgenre of the Steam Punk science fiction category. It focuses on the classical period or the ancient world before the Middle Ages, usually Ancient Rome, or Ancient Greece, or both, sometimes with hints of The Trojan War.


The "sandalpunk" sub-genre posits a world in which ancient civilization never collapsed into the Dark Ages and instead saw rapid technological advancement after a few key discoveries are made or developed into industrial technologies, such as Hero of Alexandria's steam engine, built around 130 BC. One such example is Inne piesni (Other Songs) by Jacek Dukaj.

GURPS Steampunk also introduced several other variations on the steampunk theme, including "timepunk" (a general term covering any historical variation on steampunk), "bronzepunk" (steampunk set in the Bronze Age), and "stonepunk" (steampunk set in the Stone Age).

In between the historical and fantasy sub-genres of steampunk is a type which takes place in a hypothetical future or a fantasy equivalent of our future where some variety of steampunk-style technology and aesthetics dominate. Examples include the Neotopia comic and even Disney's Treasure Planet film. This could also be considered a type of Retro-futurism.

Sandalpunk
(x30, y13)
Requires City Planning AND Construction AND Literature

Films
Atlantis, the Lost Continent (1961)
Conan the Barbarian (1982)
Krull (1983)
Cave Dwellers (1984)
Conan the Destroyer (1984)
Red Sonja (1985)
Masters of the Universe (1987)
The Princess Bride (1987)
Willow (1988)
The Scorpion King (2002)

http://walakanet.wordpress.com/jet-city/

Sandalpunk weapons
http://walakanet.wordpress.com/weapon-details/

MrAzure
May 21, 2012, 09:10 PM
Pandora's Box (can be a box full of poisonpowder catapulted to enemy)
Medusa Mirror Shield (really shiny shield that blinds melee enemies)
Mirror Tower (uses optics and sunlight to create laser to burn ship sails)