[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations [Archive]

colonialfan

Nov 07, 2011, 10:32 AM

Hi guys,

I've been doing a little research around native civs, and the additional native civs we are talking about adding to the game. From an ethnograpical point of view there are 15different cultural areas in the america's, 10 in North America, (Artic/Subartic/Northeast/Southeast/Plains/Great Basin/Plateau/Southwest/Northwest/California) 2 in Central America/Caribbean, (Mesoamerica/Caribbean) and 3 in South America, (Andean/Amazonian/Cono-Southern). I will address all 3 areas with possible suggestions that would maintain an air of historical accuracy but also I hope improve gameplay.

South America

We currently have the Inca, Tupi, Shuar & Tehuelche and are considering adding the Guarani. I think 5 tribes in South America is sufficient, however I would suggest the following changes:

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

Central America/Caribbean

We currently have the Aztec & Maya in Central America and the Arawak in the Caribbean. We are thinking of adding the Zapoltec to Central America. The only change I can think of is:

1. Add the Caribs to the Caribbean. The area was named afterall for them, and it might be fun to have two tribes in the Caribbean. (Non essential suggestion.)

North America

Here is where culturally speaking it gets a bit mirky. We currently have the Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux and Apache, representing 10 cultural regions. The Huron and Inuit have been suggested as additional tribes. Here are my suggestions:

1. Combine the Artic and Subartic cultural area.
I know not historically accurate, but that way we can spread the Inuit over a wider area and don't have to create a seperate subartic tribe.

2. Add Algonquians.
Technically I know this is a misnomer, as there is no Algonquian tribe, they are more of a loosely based cultural and language group, but we do have the six tribes of the Iroquois confederacy generalized as the Iroquois, and I think adding Algonquians would accomplish several things:

a) It adds some balance to the Northeastern woodland area. The Huron although a seperate tribe and not part of the Iroquois confederacy are a Iroquoian cultural/language group.

b) The Huron typically sided with the French, whereas the Algonquains south of Canada, sided with the English. The Iroquois, tended to try and play the European nations off of one another. The Hurons, Iroquois and Algonquians were often at war with one another. If this can be reflected in the game somehow you would have an interesting dynamic.

c) It adds greater accuracy. The Iroquois inhabited an area around the southern end of the great lakes and what is now northern New York state and a small area close to the Chesapeake. The Huron occupied an area east of the great lakes, stretching close to Quebec. Geographically these are not huge areas. Algonquian tribes had land along the eastern seaboard from Nova Scotia to Virginia, west of the great lakes and swaths of Southern Canada.

3. Combine Great Basin/Plateau/Northwest/Californian cultural areas & add Shoshone-Ute tribe
For the same reasons as combining the artic & subartic regions. We have the Sioux scattered over the great plains, and the Apache in the southwest, but from the plains westwards we have nothing. I think we need to put another tribe in here. I suggest the Shoshone-Ute. Granted I've merge two tribes but these two seem to have the most prominent cultural reach in the region, and to add even more tribes would fill the continent up too much, we want some open land afterall.

With some of these changes we would have a very different kind of gameplay within each area, for example:

South America

Inca
Tupi
Guarani
Shuar (Jivaro)
Tehuelche (Mapuche)

Somewhat large native tribes, spread over quite an expanse of territory, but with the exception of the Inca's, not very technologically advanced.

Central America

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec

Somewhat smaller tribes with less territory, but highly advanced for native civs.

Caribbean

Arawak
Carib?

Less advanced civ(s), spread across a chain of islands, each village isolated and vulnerable.

North America

Iroqouis
Algonquian
Huron
Cherokee
Sioux
Apache
Shoshoni-Ute
Inuit

Less advanced, but a mix of some smaller tribes, with smaller closely packed territories, and other larger tribes spread out over large distances.

The biggest hurdles I can envisiage is the creation of 2-3 new tribes with Leaderheads, graphics, buttons, and all the other techincal stuff that goes with that, but I am sure we could modify some already existing civs. Once we decide what civs we are going to have and how many, I can provide any missing biographical information, and try to generate a list of villages (if known) and great generals.

Comments/feedback?

raystuttgart

Nov 07, 2011, 10:57 AM

I've been doing a little research around native civs, and the additional native civs we are talking about adding to the game.

Great. :)

From an ethnograpical point of view there are 15different cultural areas in the america's, 10 in North America, (Artic/Subartic/Northeast/Southeast/Plains/Great Basin/Plateau/Southwest/Northwest/California) 2 in Central America/Caribbean, (Mesoamerica/Caribbean) and 3 in South America, (Andean/Amazonian/Cono-Southern). I will address all 3 areas with possible suggestions that would maintain an air of historical accuracy but also I hope improve gameplay.

I really appreciate your enthusiasm and accuracy but please let us not make things too complicate. ;)

Let us stay with 3 regions for now.
(Maximum of 5 is reasonable at all.)

1. Most players would not understand anyways.
2. Implementation efforts.
3. Problems with the implementation of my algorithm.
...

So for now, let us stay with:

North America
Central America
South America

South America

We currently have the Inca, Tupi, Shuar & Tehuelche and are considering adding the Guarani. I think 5 tribes in South America is sufficient.

:thumbsup:

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

Ok. :goodjob:

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Ok. :goodjob:

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

Sounds good. :)

Central America/Caribbean

We currently have the Aztec & Maya in Central America and the Arawak in the Caribbean. We are thinking of adding the Zapoltec to Central America.

Yes, that is the current plan. :)

The only change I can think of is:

1. Add the Caribs to the Caribbean. The area was named afterall for them, and it might be fun to have two tribes in the Caribbean. (Non essential suggestion.)

We could do that of course, but adding 4 more Native Nations is already an awful amount of work.
(Good Leaderhead, UnitArtStyles, CitySet, Buttons, Texts, Historical Data...)

Please let us focus on 4 Nations first.
When those are finished, we can consider adding even more.

Currently we have our first 4:
(Or do you want to have other 4 Native Nations first ?)

Inuit
Guarani (we could reuse them from AOD II)
Zapotec (we could reuse them from AOD II)
Hurons

North America

Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux and Apache, ....
The Huron and Inuit have been suggested ...

Yes, Hurons and Inuit are the 2 most desired to be added currently. :)

1. Combine the Artic and Subartic cultural area.
I know not historically accurate, but that way we can spread the Inuit over a wider area and don't have to create a seperate subartic tribe.

Please let us not do it. :(

1. Everybody understands the name "Inuit".
2. "Arcitc" would not sound nice.

2. Add Algonquians.

Technically I know this is a misnomer, as there is no Algonquian tribe, they are more of a loosely based cultural and language group, but we do have the six tribes of the Iroquois confederacy generalized as the Iroquois, and I think adding Algonquians would accomplish several things:

a) It adds some balance to the Northeastern woodland area. The Huron although a seperate tribe and not part of the Iroquois confederacy are a Iroquoian cultural/language group.

b) The Huron typically sided with the French, whereas the Algonquains south of Canada, sided with the English. The Iroquois, tended to try and play the European nations off of one another. The Hurons, Iroquois and Algonquians were often at war with one another. If this can be reflected in the game somehow you would have an interesting dynamic.

c) It adds greater accuracy. The Iroquois inhabited an area around the southern end of the great lakes and what is now northern New York state and a small area close to the Chesapeake. The Huron occupied an area east of the great lakes, stretching close to Quebec. Geographically these are not huge areas. Algonquian tribes had land along the eastern seaboard from Nova Scotia to Virginia, west of the great lakes and swaths of Southern Canada.

Generally yes. :thumbsup:
But again, let us focus on 4 Nations and then eventually add more.

3. Combine Great Basin/Plateau/Northwest/Californian cultural areas & add Shoshone-Ute tribe
For the same reasons as combining the artic & subartic regions. We have the Sioux scattered over the great plains, and the Apache in the southwest, but from the plains westwards we have nothing. I think we need to put another tribe in here. I suggest the Shoshone-Ute. Granted I've merge two tribes but these two seem to have the most prominent cultural reach in the region, and to add even more tribes would fill the continent up too much, we want some open land afterall.

Not sure ...

Actually if adding more Natives (than Inuit and Hurons) to North America, there would be many other names comming in my mind before.
(Commanches, Cheyenne, ... which is pretty much what you are talking about with "Shoshone" but the names are more commonly known.)

But ok, I guess, we could simply talk about it, once we have finished the first 4 and want to implement another Native Nation.

The biggest hurdles I can envisiage is the creation of 2-3 new tribes with Leaderheads, graphics, buttons, and all the other techincal stuff that goes with that, but I am sure we could modify some already existing civs. Once we decide what civs we are going to have and how many, I can provide any missing biographical information, and try to generate a list of villages (if known) and great generals.

I already started working on that. :)
(Collected many leaderheads and graphics and also started talks to other modders ...)

Comments/feedback?

Great work. :goodjob:

raystuttgart

Nov 07, 2011, 11:05 AM

South America

Inca
Tupi
Guarani <-- could be reused from AOD II
Shuar (Jivaro)
Tehuelche (Mapuche)

Central America

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec <-- could be reused from AOD II
Arawak
Carib <-- let us talk about it after we added the first 4, not really sure

North America

Iroqouis
Algonquian <-- let us talk about it after we added the first 4, but generally yes
Huron <-- think I already have a good leaderhead
Cherokee
Sioux
Apache
Shoshoni-Ute <-- let us talk about it after we added the first 4, not really sure
Inuit <-- currently talking about it with TAC-team

--------------------

General Problem:

We really need to keep the 3 areas generally in balance.
Otherwise the algorithm for "Geographically Correct Placement" I implemented will create strange results.
(Which is more important for me, than historical accuracy ...)

So this is ok:
(example)

North: 5
Central: 5 or 4
South: 5

This is also ok:
(example)

North: 7
Central: 4 or 5
South: 7

This is not ok:
(example)

North: 8
Central: 5
South: 5

raystuttgart

Nov 07, 2011, 11:35 AM

Could we agree on this general plan ? :)

1) Adding 4 new (Priority 1)

Inuit (in creation/preparation)
Huron (in creation/preparation)
Guarani (reused from AODII)
Zapotec (reused from AODII)

--> Getting 15 Native Nations with 6 / 4 / 5 distribution, which is pretty balanced

North America: 6

Iroqouis
Huron
Cherokee
Sioux
Apache
Inuit

Central America: 4

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec
Arawak

South America : 5

Inca
Tupi
Guarani
Shuar (Jivaro)
Tehuelche (Mapuche)

2) Eventually adding further later (Priority 2)

We could discuss which ones, if we are still motivated to create further Native Nations after the 4 mentioned above. :)
(We should still try to stay somehow balanced with North <-> South.)

Robert Surcouf

Nov 07, 2011, 01:45 PM

This seems good to me! :p

raystuttgart

Nov 07, 2011, 03:08 PM

What about this leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11029888&postcount=12) for Inuit ?

raystuttgart

Nov 07, 2011, 03:34 PM

Changing Shuar to Jivaro
Changing Tehuelche to Mapuche

Basically I see no historical inaccuracy that would make it "necessary" to change anything here. :dunno:
Also, both Nations already have enough Citynames and Great Warriors.

Yes, we could do so of course. :)
And true, in both cases we would have a bigger ethnical group. :thumbsup:

However, this is only very low priority to me, to be honest.

@colonialfan:
I do not know how important this is to you, but I would suggest we first focus on creation of our first 4, before we start reworking these 2.
Would that be ok ?

Robert Surcouf

Nov 07, 2011, 11:08 PM

What about this leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11029888&postcount=12) for Inuit ?
I like it, of course... Could I buy his coat? :mischief:

Changing Shuar to Jivaro
Changing Tehuelche to Mapuche
Well historically, Colonialfan must be right... I had never heard about Shuar and Tehuelche. And yet, I've heard about Jivaro and Mapuche.
But I agree with Ray, this would slow us down at first...

Have you ever done Xml edditing, ColonialFan, by the way?

raystuttgart

Nov 08, 2011, 09:04 AM

I like it, of course... Could I buy his coat? :mischief:

--------------------

By the way:

I had been talking to the TAC-team.
They like my feature "Geographically Correct Placement" and might integrate it in TAC.
If they do so, they might eventually also create Inuit already in TAC.

I think that there will be some cooperation between TAC and Religion and Revolution on that topic.

--------------------

I will present a Leaderhead for Hurons in the next days. :)
(I have 2, maybe 3, candidates for that one.)

So basically we would have all Leaderheads for our first 4 Nations. :thumbsup:
(Inuit, Hurons, Guarani, Zapotec)

The next step will be to find / create UnitArtStyles and CitySets.
(Buttons and Teamcolors I already have.)

If we have that too, they would be ready for integration if we have all texts and data.

I would really like to integrate our 4 new Native Nations in Release 1.

raystuttgart

Nov 08, 2011, 09:11 AM

After our first 4:

Without going into details or even really working on those, we could think about possible candidates.
(As I said, I think we should still focus on the first 4.)

I would like to keep the regions balanced. :)
We should add in next phase of our "Further Natives Nation"-Programm:

max. 1 in North
max. 2 in Central
max. 2 in South

My favourite Variant:
1 North / 1 Central / 1 South

@colonialfan:
So what would be your suggestions / favourites ? :)

colonialfan

Nov 08, 2011, 08:50 PM

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your feedback, its always good to have another pair of eyes go over your ideas to see what sounds good, bad, superfluous, ridiculous etc.

Before I start, let me say, I should have sent an attachment of the ethnographical cultural map I was working from and to which some of my comments were based. If I'd done that some of my comments may of made more sense. Sorry.:blush:

Geographical Regions

I absolutely agree that we should have just three regions, North America, Central America/Caribbean & South America. When I mentioned other areas like Plateau, Northeast woodlands, Plains, Amazonian etc, I was merely referencing cultural areas. So for example when I suggested combining Artic and Subartic for the Inuit, I was advocating that we simply combine those cultural areas so the Inuit could inhabit both, not create a new geographical region or rename what we already have. Sorry again for the confusion.

Changing Shuar and Teheulche

If they already exist as they are, and do not need any changes, I can happily live with their current names. I am not sure too many people are going to scruntinize the name of a tribe, as long as that tribe exists/existed.

Leaderhead for Inuit

I like it.:)

Number of native civs

I did not even think about how this might affect the algorithms. Gameplay absolutely has to be the first priority.

Adding Further native civs

I'm all for it, but like you said we should probably concentrate initially on the first 4 we have chosen. As to my prefered varient for distribution for any future tribes, I'd also have to go with 1 North/ 1 Central / 1 South.

In terms of favorite tribes, are we basing our choices on tribes most players would of heard of/be somewhat familiar with? If so we might struggle with Central American and South America tribes, as they are well less known as their North American counterparts. But my favorite choices would be:

North America
Algonquian. They are on the east coast and they are more pertinent to the time period of the game, than western tribes.

Central America/Caribbean
I guess it would depend on the map size. For larger maps I'd go with the Caribs, to make the Caribbean area more fun. On a smaller map maybe a tribe south of the Aztec/Maya/Zapoltec region, something like the Guaymi or Miskito.

South America
This is a tough one. We have the Inca along the Andes, the Tehuelche and Guarani are in the southern part of the continent and the Tupi and Shuar are in the Amazon area. Maybe a tribe that is centrally located, something in the Bolivian region perhaps? I'd have to look into it a bit more.

colonialfan

Nov 08, 2011, 08:52 PM

Hi Robert,

Sorry I've haven't done much XML work. I've just tweaked a few things here or there.

raystuttgart

Nov 09, 2011, 01:12 AM

I absolutely agree that we should have just three regions, North America, Central America/Caribbean & South America.

Actually with the implementation I did, we could already have 5 regions without changing the code.
(Far North, North, Central, South, Far South)

But for now, I would like to stay with 3 regions to keep it simple.
(North, Central, South)

If they already exist as they are, and do not need any changes, I can happily live with their current names. I am not sure too many people are going to scruntinize the name of a tribe, as long as that tribe exists/existed.

So ok, let us leave them as they are for now. :)
(We could reconsider at another point of time, of course.)

Leaderhead for Inuit

I like it.:)

Great. :)

Number of native civs

I did not even think about how this might affect the algorithms. Gameplay absolutely has to be the first priority.

It is not your duty to think about the algorithms. :)
It just wanted to explain a little, why we should keep the regions in balance.

Adding Further native civs

I'm all for it, but like you said we should probably concentrate initially on the first 4 we have chosen. As to my prefered varient for distribution for any future tribes, I'd also have to go with 1 North/ 1 Central / 1 South.

Great. :)

In terms of favorite tribes, are we basing our choices on tribes most players would of heard of/be somewhat familiar with?

We simply choose, what we feel fits best. :)
Familiarity is also an aspect of course ...

North America
Algonquian.

Central America/Caribbean
Caribs

South America
I'd have to look into it a bit more.

Alonquian and Caribs are fine for me. :thumbsup:
(I think I might even already have leaderheads for them, too.)

About the South:

In AoDII and other Mods there already exists Toltecs.
They are a little too mythical for my taste.

But eventually we could reuse them for another Civ.
So if we find another Civ that is similar to Toltecs, then reusing (leaderhead and UnitArtStyles) could be simple and save us a lot of work.

raystuttgart

Nov 09, 2011, 06:16 AM

Are the leaderheads here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11029894&postcount=13) (from AODII) ok for Guarani and Zapotec ?

colonialfan

Nov 09, 2011, 04:29 PM

Are the leaderheads here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11029894&postcount=13) (from AODII) ok for Guarani and Zapotec ?

Guarani leaderhead looks good to me, maybe a bit buff but otherwise fine.:)

As for the Zapotec leaderhead I could not find any period illustrations to compare it with. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do this, but the one thing I would change on the Zapotec leaderhead is removing the beard. Men in Native American cultures are not known for an abundance of facial hair.

raystuttgart

Nov 10, 2011, 01:46 AM

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do this, but the one thing I would change on the Zapotec leaderhead is removing the beard. Men in Native American cultures are not known for an abundance of facial hair.

I myself cannot do modifications on leaderheads.
But I will ask one of the modders I know that are able to do this if they could remove the beard for us. :)

colonialfan

Nov 10, 2011, 04:15 PM

I myself cannot do modifications on leaderheads.
But I will ask one of the modders I know that are able to do this if they could remove the beard for us. :)

Sounds good.:) If they cannot, I was wondering if we could use the leaderhead of Ce Acatl Topiltzan, the Toltec leader from the 1492 mod, as a possiblility? We have no plans to use the Toltecs as a civ, and at the risk of sounding culturally ignorant and insensitive, (which is not my intention) there are not too many physical distinguishments between the appearance of the Maya, Aztec, and Zapotec, for people to scrutinize over. No more than there would be between, say, English, French and German peoples of that time.

raystuttgart

Nov 11, 2011, 01:34 AM

I was wondering if we could use the leaderhead of Ce Acatl Topiltzan, the Toltec leader from the 1492 mod, as a possiblility?

It is the same as in AODII for Toltec.
Maybe that is the better solution anyways. :)

So ok, let us take this leaderhead for Zapotec. :thumbsup:
(I think it really fits a lot better.)

raystuttgart

Nov 11, 2011, 02:03 AM

Ok guys, :)

here 2 suggestions for leaderheads.
(I know they are not very perfect, but really good leaderheads are pretty rare. :) )

I would suggest this one here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306593&d=1321002162) or this one here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306602&d=1321004706) for Hurons and this one here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306594&d=1321002162) for Alonquin later on.

This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305285&d=1319751104) leaderhead I had presented before could be use for some other North American Civ (Shoshone or Navajo maybe) sometime in the future.

raystuttgart

Nov 11, 2011, 02:11 AM

This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306595&d=1321002580) leaderhead I would like to use for another Central American Native Civ.

This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580) leaderhead could be used eventually for the Caribs ?
(Otherwise also for some South American Native Civ.)

Also, if we get the beard removed from this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306288&d=1320686785) one, we could use it for South American Native Civ.

raystuttgart

Nov 11, 2011, 02:37 AM

Ok, here 2 more leaderheads I like, that could be used for South America or Central America.

raystuttgart

Nov 11, 2011, 02:49 AM

Ok guys,

that is pretty much it. :)

As I said, I had collected and checked more than 30 leaderheads ...
Most of them I had thrown away directly because they were simply very low quality.

The ones I have presented in this thread (12 in total), are the only ones I know of, that I feel we might use.

Index:

1. Inuit (http://www.civforum.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=639552&d=1320584011) <-- I think, this is accepted
2. Guarani (http://www.civforum.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=639481&d=1320575117) <-- I think, this is accepted
3. Zapotec (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306592&d=1321000810) <-- I think, this is accepted
4. My Favorit for Hurons (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306602&d=1321004706) (although quality relatively low ...)
5. Alternative for Hurons (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306593&d=1321002162) (higher quality but less atmospheric)

6. A South American Native Civ (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306288&d=1320686785) (beard should be removed)
7. Navajo or Shoshone (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305285&d=1319751104)
8. Eventually Alonquin (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306594&d=1321002162) (although quality relatively low ...)
9. Eventually a Central American Civ (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306595&d=1321002580)
10. Caribs ? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580)
11. Eventually a Central American Civ (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306598&d=1321004237)
12. Eventually a South American Civ (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306599&d=1321004237)

If you do not have other suggestions, we either try to use them, or we start asking around for creation of totally new ones.
(I think that other modders might be willing to create on or maybe two new leaderheads,
but not the amount of leaderheads we are going to need in total ...)

I would rather try to use the leaderheads we find ourselves and maybe ask for small modifications.
We will need a lot of favours with graphics anyways from other modders ...

colonialfan

Nov 11, 2011, 04:32 PM

Hi Ray,

Thanks for doing a great job with looking into some leaderheads.:goodjob: I've also been doing a litle digging around and found a few, but first lets discuss yours.

Leaderheads

1-4. :D I think they are a good representation of the different civs we want to use.
5. Not sure about this one. Looks like a Roman with facepaint to me.
6. Already talked about this one.
7. Good find. This one is generic enough to represent several western tribes in NA.
8. Struggling with the bearskin. Would not be my first choice for Algonquian.
9. I think this one look a little cartoon like.
10. Great! Its very different, not sure if the Caribs used body paint, but I like it.
11-12 - Solid representations of SA native civs.

Nice work Ray.

I found three additional leaderheads.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306676&stc=1&d=1321052080

I thought this might be a good represntation of the Algonquians. Slightly similar to the Iroquois but different enough.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306677&stc=1&d=1321052080

Maybe a Central American Civ?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306675&stc=1&d=1321052080

No the best quality, but a potential North American western Civ?

I think you are right about trying to use pre-existing leaderheads, and ask modders for small alterations if need be. If we are lucky some nice modder out there might be willing to accomodate us a bit more...

Comments/feedback?

raystuttgart

Nov 12, 2011, 02:11 AM

@colonialfan:
I cannot see any screenshots / images in your post ... :dunno:
(Could you try to correct ?)

Robert Surcouf

Nov 12, 2011, 04:15 AM

Hi Ray,

Thanks for doing a great job with looking into some leaderheads.:goodjob: I've also been doing a litle digging around and found a few, but first lets discuss yours.

Leaderheads

1-4. :D I think they are a good representation of the different civs we want to use.
5. Not sure about this one. Looks like a Roman with facepaint to me.
6. Already talked about this one.
7. Good find. This one is generic enough to represent several western tribes in NA.
8. Struggling with the bearskin. Would not be my first choice for Algonquian.
9. I think this one look a little cartoon like.
10. Great! Its very different, not sure if the Caribs used body paint, but I like it.
11-12 - Solid representations of SA native civs.

Very good job indeed Ray! :goodjob:
1-3: I like them !
4-5: Leaderhead n°4 is better than n°5... But the perfect Huron leaderhead would be 4 and 5 merged together... n°4 has the correct hair cut, but seems a little "big" to me. If we could keep n°5 head... without the painting... For now let's use n°4
6: Without his beard would be great
7: :goodjob:
8: Why not. It's better than nothing... But quality is very low indeed.
9: Cartoon like indeed. Is it bad?
10-12: Ok!

raystuttgart

Nov 12, 2011, 06:37 AM

Is it only me, who cannot see the screenshots in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11040463&postcount=37) of colonialfan ? :confused:

Writing Bull

Nov 12, 2011, 10:15 AM

Is it only me, who cannot see the screenshots in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11040463&postcount=37) of colonialfan ? :confused:I can't see them. ;)

Robert Surcouf

Nov 13, 2011, 10:18 AM

I don't see them either, don't worry !;)
Colonialfan will probably send them again...

colonialfan

Nov 20, 2011, 04:17 PM

Hi guys,

Hopefully I have corrected the problem from my earlier post.

Algonquian Leaderhead.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/hiawathafinal_2Pq.jpg

Although a little similar to the Iroquois, this one is pretty accurate representation of the Algonquian peoples.

Possible Central American Leaderheads.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/itzcoatl_SCc.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/pachacuti_57z.jpg

Perhaps not the most accurate but a good alternative.

Possible Western North American Leaderheads.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=279160&d=1295202534
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg

First one is good quality, and it might be nice to have a female leaderhead. Not sure about the second one.

raystuttgart

Nov 21, 2011, 02:22 AM

Algonquian Leaderhead.

I like the leaderhead, actually I think we should eventually use it for Hurons.

Hurons have higher priority than Alonquians.
We could use the other one (we originially had for Hurons) for Alonquians and also keep searching until then.

Possible Central American Leaderheads.

The first looks too similar to one already existing.
The other is ok.

Possible Western North American Leaderheads.

Yes, they are good leaderheads. :)
(The female one is from melcher by the way.)

:goodjob:

Robert Surcouf

Nov 21, 2011, 05:38 AM

I like the leaderhead, actually I think we should eventually use it for Hurons.

Hurons have higher priority than Alonquians.
We could use the other one (we originially had for Hurons) for Alonquians and also keep searching until then.
I agree! It's what I was looking for!

The first looks too similar to one already existing.
The other is ok.
I agree!

Yes, they are good leaderheads. :)
(The female one is from melcher by the way.)
:goodjob:
Good job Colonialfan... and Melcher Kürzer!

raystuttgart

Nov 21, 2011, 06:53 AM

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/hiawathafinal_2Pq.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/pachacuti_57z.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg

@colonialfan:
Could you please send me the downloadlinks to these leaderheads ?
(I would like to take a look at them ingame.)

colonialfan

Nov 22, 2011, 07:51 AM

@colonialfan:
Could you please send me the downloadlinks to these leaderheads ?
(I would like to take a look at them ingame.)

Here you go Ray.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10315&act=down

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12412&act=down

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14129&act=down

I think you and Robert are right about using the Hiawatha leaderhead for the Huron, (as it is a more pressing Civ at the moment) and possibly using the Huron leaderhead for the Algonquians. I will continue to look through other leaderheads and see what I can find. Perhaps we can find something that would be a closer fit for the Algonquians, but atleast we have a backup.

raystuttgart

Nov 22, 2011, 08:26 AM

Perfect. :goodjob:

raystuttgart

Nov 30, 2011, 10:01 AM

Hi guys, :wavey:

I have checked the 3 leaderheads ingame.

This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=308233&d=1322672472) one I really like. :thumbsup:
(I really think it is our best choice for Hurons.)

This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=308235&d=1322672472) one and this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=308234&d=1322672472) one are ok, too.
(So yes, we could use them for other Native Civs.)

@colonialfan: :goodjob:

KJ Jansson

Dec 02, 2011, 04:59 AM

Hi Ray!

This question is primarily addressed to you as to one of the developers of the TAC mod.

At the moment I use "TAC 2.02b_inoffiziell" as a basis. However, when I use a usual map-scripts from vanilla CivIVCol I see such situation with native civilization distribution. Please, see three images.

- Apaches (instead of South-West USA) appears near Norther Polar Circle:
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6116/apachesnearpolarcircle.jpg

- Tupi (instead Brazil) - on Nord
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2292/tupionnord.jpg

- Tehuelche near Equator instead of Patagonia (South America, South Polar Circle)
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2469/tehuelchenearequator.jpg

etc. I can restart "TAC 2.02b_inoffiziell" mod and the geographical locations of native civilizations will be different, however again WRONG.

What was done by TAC team to fix the real locations of native civilizations and exlude the chaos? Really rather strange to observe practically undressed Apaches or Tupi near ice on Nord or warm dressed Tehuelches between palms.

I suppose this is the first question that should be somehow solved before we start to add any new civilizations.

To prevent such chaotic distribution of native civilizations I see only two ways.

1. To create something similar to [TAC] Kartenszenarien (http://www.civforum.de/showthread.php?t=57113)

This is the ideal solution. No changes in source codes are required. We will take a blank America map and just add all available native civilizations. Here all native civilization will be located exactly in the correct places.

Something similar was already made in "TAC America v.1.03.ColonizationWBSave" map. However, I found one serious mistake. Tehuelche (or Patagons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehuelche_people)) are located on this map on Nord of America (near Northern Polar circle), but must be located on southern part of American continent, near Patagonia (South America, South Polar Circle). Why? Probably, because on the used map Patagonia region is very small, I don't know.

NeverMind (http://forums.civfanatics.com/member.php?u=58357) published a set of very detailed blank maps for CivIVColonization (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13030), including the excellent America map. I tested this map on "TAC 2.02b_inoffiziell" and found no troubles. Maybe this blank map could be used a basic for such scenario?

I repeat, this is the absolute solution because all resources could be located on blank map in correct places, too. I choosed exactly such variant in my development of "1492: Global Colonization" mod.

2. to introduce two tags
<iMinLatitude>X</iMinLatitude>
<iMaxLatitude>Y</iMaxLatitude>
in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml. Something similar to iMinLatitude/iMaxLatitude tags in CIV4BonusInfos.xml.

Technically looks that this is rather easy to do. But, maximum that I could reach on this way is a good zonal distribution of native civilizations. Really each native civilization was located in the narrow region of 10 degree wide (because Y - X = 10). However the distribution of native civilizations along a meridian (from nord to sud) was again CHAOTIC. Moreover, such distribution I could obtain only on the blank map, for instance America from NeverMind collection. The standart mapscrips (A_New_World.py, Caribbean.py) give only usual mixture of native civilizations. My attemps to extend the my program on MapGenerator results in the crash during initialization process. Thus, here I cannot see what I can do more.

Maybe something was already done in next "TAC 2.02c" or "TAC 2.03"? You know TAC mod development much better.

raystuttgart

Dec 02, 2011, 05:34 AM

KJ Jansson

Dec 02, 2011, 06:01 AM

Hi KJ,

my new feature "Correct Geographical Placement of Natives" is not included in TAC 2.02b.

But it will be included in TAC 2.02c (and of course later on in TAC 2.03).
(Also in our next internal Preview, once I have "Native Raids" completely done. :) )

koma included it in TAC and improved it to be a game option.
(see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11057746&postcount=314) and here (http://www.civforum.de/showpost.php?p=4417907&postcount=729) some explanation in the German Forum)

This topic / problem is solved. :thumbsup:
(I really think I did a good solution here. ;) )

Great! Thank you for your information. I will see.

However, how about to create Scenario based on larger America map with such parameters?

BeginMap
grid width=115
grid height=150
top latitude=60
bottom latitude=-60
wrap X=0
wrap Y=0
world size=WORLDSIZE_HUGE
climate=CLIMATE_TEMPERATE
sealevel=SEALEVEL_MEDIUM
num plots written=17250
num signs written=0
Randomize Resources=false
EndMap

raystuttgart

Dec 02, 2011, 06:17 AM

However, how about to create Scenario based on larger America map with such parameters?

Sure, it would be nice to have large scenario maps. :)
(I have opened a new thread for those discussion.)

Androrc the Orc

Dec 18, 2011, 05:11 PM

Are the leaderheads here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11029894&postcount=13) (from AODII) ok for Guarani and Zapotec ?

I traced back the origin of the Guarani leaderhead in the ColGold mod (and subsequently Age of Further Discovery) to this mod:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12737

It attributes the leaderhead to Tecun Uman (which is a strange name, since the only Tecun Uman I know of lived in Guatemala). The leaderhead is more representative of the Guarani than of Mesoamerican Indians in any case.

Apparently the leaderhead was made by the creator of that modmod himself:

[...]

Graphically reworked Tecin Uman , leader of the guaranis

[...]

So we know who to attribute it to in the credits. I still wish I'd know what images he used as a base to do that leaderhead though, so that we could know the exact leader it should belong to.

raystuttgart

Jan 19, 2012, 02:30 AM

Ok guys, on the weekend I will integrate Guarani and Zapotec. :thumbsup:
(We can add all missing texts and graphics later on.)

colonialfan

Jan 19, 2012, 04:01 PM

Ok guys, on the weekend I will integrate Guarani and Zapotec. :thumbsup:
(We can add all missing texts and graphics later on.)

Ray,

I can have the text for the Guarani and Zapotec to you by this weekend. Hopefully for Saturday, but if not definately Sunday.

raystuttgart

Jan 20, 2012, 06:06 AM

I can have the text for the Guarani and Zapotec to you by this weekend. Hopefully for Saturday, but if not definately Sunday.

Great. :goodjob:
But as I said, it is no problem to add the texts / generals / cities, later on.

colonialfan

Jan 21, 2012, 10:30 PM

Hi guys here is the text for the Guarani & Zapotec.

Guarani
311729
311730
311731
311732

Zapotec
311733
311734
311735
311736

Let me know if you want any changes.

raystuttgart

Jan 22, 2012, 01:56 AM

Hi guys here is the text for the Guarani & Zapotec.

Thanks. :goodjob:

raystuttgart

Jan 22, 2012, 08:59 AM

Hi guys, :)

our Priority 1 New Native Nations are generally implemented. :thumbsup:
(Graphical and text improvements still outstanding.)

So this is our current list of Native Nations:

North: 6 Nations

Apache
Sioux
Cherokee
Iroquois
Inuit
Hurons

Central: 3 Nations

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec

South: 6 Nations

Arawak
Tupi
Inca
Tehuelche
Shuar
Guarani

raystuttgart

Jan 22, 2012, 09:07 AM

Currently I am thinking about adding even more New Native Nations. :)

These are the leaderheads I would really like to use:

Link 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305285&d=1319751104)
Link 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580)

Leaderheads with good quality that might be considered, too:

Ling Good Quality 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306598&d=1321004237)
Link Good Quality 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=279160&d=1295202534)
Link Good Quality 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306599&d=1321004237)

These leaderheads could theoretically be used, but quality is relatively low:

Link Acceptable Quality 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306602&d=1321004706)
Link Acceptable Quality 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/pachacuti_57z.jpg)
Link Acceptable Quality 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg)

This one for example is simply too bad quality:

Link Too Bad Quality 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306594&d=1321002162)

Karl-Heinz

Jan 22, 2012, 11:55 AM

Link 2 is already in TAC. Orkeke is the leader of Tehuelche.

raystuttgart

Jan 22, 2012, 12:07 PM

Link 2 is already in TAC. Orkeke is the leader of Tehuelche.

I am currently talking about the Leaderhead graphics only. ;)
(I am not talking about Nations or specific Leaders.)

I used the existing structure and simply gave Orkeke other graphics to test these.
(By doing so, I have tested about 20 different leaderheads.)

Currently our choices for adding further Native Nations are a little bit limited by the fact,
that not too many good Native Leaderheads are existant and no team member could create new ones.

Thus it might be a good approach, to find Nations for existing Leaderheads, instead of Leaderheads for Nations. :dunno:

raystuttgart

Jan 22, 2012, 12:29 PM

@team:

Do you have any suggestion, how to use the graphics I have posted here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11207583&postcount=61) ?

Could we use Link 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305285&d=1319751104) for Navajo ? (as intended by the creator)
Could we use Link 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580) for Caribs ? :dunno:

Would any leaderhead fit to Shoshone or Ute or Comanche or Cheyenne ? :think:
Would any leaderhead fit to Alonquin ?
Is there any South American or Central American Native Nation, that comes up to your mind, where we could use one of the leaderheads ?

raystuttgart

Jan 22, 2012, 01:58 PM

Some more leaderheads I found:

Nanyi Hi (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16341) <-- high quality but female leaders are not that easy considering authenticity
Atototzli (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14384) <-- female leaders are not that easy considering authenticity
Salamasina (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14048) <-- a little too "comic-like", female leaders are not that easy considering authenticity
Pacific (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13924) <-- :dunno:
Cochise (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11771) <-- relatively low quality, but still ok
Smoke Jaguar (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316) <-- could be interesting
Geronimo (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10122) <-- very low quality

colonialfan

Jan 22, 2012, 04:23 PM

@team:

Could we use Link 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305285&d=1319751104) for Navajo ? (as intended by the creator)
Could we use Link 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580) for Caribs ? :dunno:

Would any leaderhead fit to Shoshone or Ute or Comanche or Cheyenne ? :think:
Would any leaderhead fit to Alonquin ?
Is there any South American or Central American Native Nation, that comes up to your mind, where we could use one of the leaderheads ?

Link 1 would be fine for the Navajo.
Link 2 would be acceptable for the Caribs, there is some evidence that they used body paint. It could have been blue?

As for Shoshone or Ute, Link Acceptable Quality 3, would be the closest physical representation.

The best physical representation for the Comanche and Cheyenne would be the links for Cochise or Geronimo.

A generalized Algonquin representation should be similar to the ones used for the Huron and Iroquois. With that being said, Link Acceptable Quality 1 would be the best match, but Link Good Quality 2, would also work. (If we use the good quality link, don't worry about the gender issue, I'll find the needed biographical information for an Algonquin female chief.)

Link Good Quality 1 and Acceptable Quality 2, would best represent Central American civs. Olmec, Toltec, Mixtec and Nahua all spring to mind.

raystuttgart

Jan 23, 2012, 01:42 AM

Ok, then let us do this:

Next 3 New Native Nations:

Alonquin (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=279160&d=1295202534) (North)
Navajo (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305285&d=1319751104) (North)
Caribs (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580) (Central)

Then:
(We need to balance out the North again by adding 2 Nations in the South and one in the Central would be good, too.)

Mixtec (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306598&d=1321004237) (Central)
Southern 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13924) (other Background of course)
Southern 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306599&d=1321004237)

@team:
Is everybody ok with this ?

@colonialfan:
Could you make some suggestions for "Southern 1" and "Southern 2" ?
Also it would be great, if you could start collecting the data for the next Native Nations (Alonquin, Navajo, Caribs). :thumbsup:

---------------------------------------- <-- To my opinion, we have used up the best leaderheads at this point.

Then Maybe:

Comanche (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11771)
Shoshone (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg)
Cheyenne (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16341)
Northern 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306602&d=1321004706)
Southern or Central 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316)
Southern or Central 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14384)
Southern or Central 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/pachacuti_57z.jpg)

colonialfan

Jan 24, 2012, 04:53 PM

@colonialfan:
Could you make some suggestions for "Southern 1" and "Southern 2" ?
Also it would be great, if you could start collecting the data for the next Native Nations (Alonquin, Navajo, Caribs). :thumbsup:

Sure. I'll start on them as soon as I've finished off the text for Denmark. Do you want me to gather information for the Algonquin, Navajo & Caribs, before I start on the Tehuelche and Shuar? I don't mind either way, whatever works best for the team.

As for other southern tribes, might I suggest the Muisca and Cambeba. The Muisca lived in Columbia and some of their practices were largely responsible for fueling the stories of "El Dorado." I thought that might be a nice touch for the game and besides we do not have a tribe from Columbia represented yet.

In regards to the Cambeba, not that widely known after the 16th century, but when Francisco De Orellana travelled down the Amazon in the early 1540's, he mentioned that they had large expansive villages and were a civilization of some note.

raystuttgart

Jan 25, 2012, 11:16 AM

I'll start on them as soon as I've finished off the text for Denmark.

This weekend I will be busy with "Rebuild Horses" anyway. :)

But generally, work on whatever you want to do first.
(Denmark or New Native Nations or ...)

Do you want me to gather information for the Algonquin, Navajo & Caribs, before I start on the Tehuelche and Shuar?

What do you want to do for Tehuelche and Shuar ? :confused:
(I thought we said, we leave them as they are for now. See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11033875&postcount=27))

As for other southern tribes, might I suggest the Muisca and Cambeba. The Muisca lived in Columbia and some of their practices were largely responsible for fueling the stories of "El Dorado." I thought that might be a nice touch for the game and besides we do not have a tribe from Columbia represented yet.

In regards to the Cambeba, not that widely known after the 16th century, but when Francisco De Orellana travelled down the Amazon in the early 1540's, he mentioned that they had large expansive villages and were a civilization of some note.

Sounds good. :)

colonialfan

Jan 25, 2012, 04:44 PM

What do you want to do for Tehuelche and Shuar ? :confused:
(I thought we said, we leave them as they are for now.

I meant text wise. Their bio's need a little beefing up, but I can put them on the backburner and do the other civs first.

raystuttgart

Jan 26, 2012, 01:36 AM

I meant text wise. Their bio's need a little beefing up, ...

Ah ok. :)

However, it would be great, if you could do New Nations first, so I can integrate them and KJ could take a look at graphics when he got some time to do so.
(Denmark, Alonquin, Navajo, Caribs, ...)

colonialfan

Jan 26, 2012, 03:41 PM

Will do.:)

I should have all of Denmark finished (Denmark Bio, Danish Monarchy, Hans Egede & Jen Munk) by this weekend. I'll start on the Navajo and Caribs next as they should be pretty easy and quick to do. The Algonquins might take a bit longer as Algonquin is the name of a language group rather than a specific tribe. But I'm sure I'll find an Algonquin speaking tribe with a female leader that has a sufficient bio.

raystuttgart

Jan 26, 2012, 04:32 PM

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 06:26 AM

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

Well historically, Colonialfan must be right... I had never heard about Shuar and Tehuelche. And yet, I've heard about Jivaro and Mapuche.

I abolutely agree with this, Jivaro and Mapuche are more fitting names
Also it's not too much work to change the text of the already existing civs

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 06:34 AM

I also agree with conolialfan, that keeping the simmetry in the number of southern and northern natives is not that realistic
North America is significantly bigger (both territory and easily inhabitable areas), and has way more different styled regions

AFAIK you guys currently have:
Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Inuits, Hurons, Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, Arawak, Tupi, Inca, Tehuelche/Mapuche, Shuar/Jivaro, Guarani

With the addition of Navajo, Comanche, Algonquin, Carib it would get as complete as it could be IMO:
North: Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Comanche, Inuit, Algonquin
Central: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec
Caribbean: Arawak, Carib
South: Inca, Tupi, Mapuche, Jivaro, Guarani

I'm against having lesser known central or southern american tribes just for the sake of having more, or for completing the simmetry between north and south native numbers...

EDIT: Instead of the Algonquin an even better idea might be the Cree. The area is more or less the same, and it can also be implemented as a loose federation. The same way the Algonquin would be or the same way the Iroquois are...
Or if you already have the base work done for the Algonquins, maybe adding both is not a bad idea either ;)

EDIT2: The Comanche is definitely worth including. They had the biggest horse and mounted culture among the north american natives
But while I am not exactly a fan of either the Comanche or Sioux, the Comanche are still fairly well known. (In Texas, Oklahoma, etc. The Texas Ranger arose due to the Comanche etc.) Its just that the Comanche were a more interesting civ. As seen by their map their raids went all the way from Mexico to the Eastern U.S. At their peak there were more than 2,000,000 horses in Comancheria and developed as the biggest horse based civ in North America.
Here is a map of Comanche control and extent of raids in their empire/nation.

http://oieahc.wm.edu/wmq/Apr10/hamalainen.html

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 07:20 AM

Upon reading a little more, maybe adding the Chibcha for SA would be very fitting:
...Chibcha ethnic group, famous for their use of gold, which led to the legend of El Dorado. At the time of the Spanish conquest, the Chibchas were the largest native civilization between the Incas and the Aztecs.

They were also made for Civ V in a very good fan-made mod: Native American Civilizations
It's worth to check the image made for them, IMO it's one of the best: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17370

So my more or less final list would be:
North: Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Comanche, Inuit, Algonquin and/or Cree
Central: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec
Caribbean: Arawak, Carib
South: Inca, Tupi, Mapuche, Jivaro, Guarani, Chibcha

raystuttgart

Feb 25, 2012, 07:35 AM

Woah AbsintheRed, slow down. :)

1. Changing Nations that are already 100% completed and integrated. (Talking about Shuar and Tehuelche.)

A) They have been made by my former team (TAC) and I have respect for all the work they put in them.
Since we base on TAC, I don't want to change things like that without good reasons.

B) It is a lot of work !
Background Texts, Diplomacy Dialogs, Great Generals, City Names, Leaderhead Balancing, Flags, UnitArtStyles, ...
Not to forget all the work for translation.
I really would not like to do that, without really really good reason.
Also, we have massive amounts of work already for finishing up our other New Native Nations.

2. About - at least rudimentary - balancing Natives (North, Central, South)

This is generally necessary !
Otherwise you will get totally strange distributions of Natives during random maps.
The Feature "Historically Correct Placement of Natives" would create extremely strange results.
Sorry, we will not create totally inbalanced list of Natives.

3. Most of all we are currently limited by the availability of good leaderhead graphics.

There are not many good leaderheads left and we will use these first, of course.

4. Thanks for your hint about Chibcha. :thumbsup:

I never heard of them, but I will check.

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 08:01 AM

Woah AbsintheRed, slow down. :)

Why? We should rather get faster ;)

1. I only meant a name change there
Shuar is part of the Jivaro culture group
Tehuelche is also very similar to Mapuche, but you are probably right, a simple name-change wouldn't work here

2. AFAIK you guys already planned to add the Algonquins, Najavo and Caribs
Maybe even the Comanche eventually
So actually I only made one new north american suggestion, while making a south american too ;)

With 10 north and 6-7 south american natives would it still cause problems for your "Historically Correct Placement of Natives" feature?

3. Finding the perfect art is usually a huge problem, I certainly know that as a fellow modder :/

4. Hope you will like it too
Initially I was against adding them as I never heard of them either, but quickly changed my mind

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 08:12 AM

This is colonialfan's post from a couple months ago

South America

We currently have the Inca, Tupi, Shuar & Tehuelche and are considering adding the Guarani. I think 5 tribes in South America is sufficient, however I would suggest the following changes:

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

I very much agree with him, and don't think it would too much work
Btw the Mapuche and the Tehuelche are not as directly related as the Shuar and Jivaro (Shuar being a small tribe part of the Jivaro native group)
So another option would be to keep the Tehuelche and simply add the Mapuche

This would be good for the north-south balance too
If you decide to add the Chibcha too, you could get 7 good south american natives

raystuttgart

Feb 25, 2012, 08:19 AM

In the next steps we will add 6 more:
(This is definitely planned.)

North:
Alonquin, Navajo

Central:
Caribs, Mixtec

South:
2 more, where colonialfan will make a first suggestion

At that point, we will be balanced again. :)
After that we will see. :dunno:

Thanks for your input. :thumbsup:
(Maybe Chibcha could be used for one of the 2 Southern Native Civs. :dunno:)

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 08:36 AM

You are not really open to suggestions, are you? :D
Not even if we are more-or less agree ;)

The diffs: As I said, I would definitely add the Comanche to North America in the next step, they are fairly important
I would consider to have both the Cree and the Algonquin, even if they are close
The 2 South could be Chibcha and Mapuche (so we keep the Tehuelche in)
Shaur renamed to Jivaro
Also, I'm not really fond if the Mixtecs, that area is already very crowded
Though I can certainly live with having an extra civ there too, so compromise here :)

This makes a complete list both region and culture-wise:
North (10): Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Comanche, Inuit, Algonquin, Cree
Central (4) + Caribbean (2): Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, Mixtec + Arawak, Carib
South (7): Inca, Tupi, Tehuelche, Mapuche, Jivaro, Guarani, Chibcha

Now my input is complete ;)
Naturally feel free to accept and decline anything, these are only suggestions of course

raystuttgart

Feb 25, 2012, 08:47 AM

You are not really open to suggestions, are you? :D

I am open to suggestions. :)

But as I said, the next 6 Native Nations are planned.
Although it is still relatively open, which 2 Native Nations we will add in the South.

-> Navajo, Alonquin, Caribs, Mixtec, Southern 1, Southern 2

As long as the team does not object, we will do it like that.
(Many considerations have been put into that: Balancing, personal wishes of team members, availability of Leaderheads, ...)

After that we will see. :dunno:
The team will discuss then, which other Native Nations we will add.
Your input might be considered then. :thumbsup:

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 08:58 AM

As you can see, I don't really have more suggestions, the list starting to feel complete
So good job on it overally!
The only missing important civ is the Comanche as I have already stated a couple times

Btw, one minor nitpick: I see you consistently use Alonquin, in all 5 pages of this thread
It's Algonquin (or Algonquian)

raystuttgart

Feb 25, 2012, 09:04 AM

So good job on it overally!

Thanks in the name of the team. :)

The only missing important civ is the Comanche ...

They might be implemented in a following turn. :)

It's Algonquin (or Algonquian)

Sorry for that.
We will have it correct, when we implement them. :thumbsup:
(Don't worry, colonialfan - our specialist here - will correct me here, if I do something wrong.)

AbsintheRed

Feb 25, 2012, 09:29 AM

Here is another peice of information about the Cree, if you eventually think about adding another sub-arctic native group:

I fully support the idea to add the Inuit as a tribe, we need a logical choice for arctic regions.

Other ideas might be the Algonquin (which are a tribe by themselves but could also represent a broader group such as the Cree and other related peoples) and if there was interest, the Cree could be added separately (they're a very large and significant group throughout large parts of Canada, even to this day).

Take a look at these maps:

Algonquins (not including most Cree)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Anishinaabe-Anishinini_Map.PNG
Cree

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Crimapo.png

colonialfan

Feb 28, 2012, 09:56 AM

Hi guys, here are the next two native civs. Sorry for the delay, my internet was down over the weekend.:eek:

315030

315031

315032

315033

315034

315035

315036

315037

315038

As you can see I've added the bio's for two Algonquian leaders. I couldn't decide what one would be better, maybe the group in general has a preference? Female Algonquian leaders are few and far between but these two seemed to be the best representation and had the most reliable documented info.

Also as Algonquian, pertains to a language group rather than a singular tribe, I've tried to include a few names of villages and leaders from the more prominent tribes, such as Blackfoot, Cree, Abenaki, Shawnee, Cheyenne, Wampanoag, Powhatan, etc. Although in the game they will be represented by the one leader.

Any comments/feedback/changes let me know.

AbsintheRed

Feb 28, 2012, 10:34 AM

I see you more or less included the Cree here
I guess this excludes them as a separate NA civ

Anyway, what do you think of the remaining southern natives?
I'm really curious on your opinion after the conversation we had with raystuttgart

raystuttgart

Feb 28, 2012, 11:31 AM

Hi guys, here are the next two native civs.

Great. :goodjob:
I will add Navajo, Algonquian and Caribs in the next days.

Sorry for the delay, ...

No problem. :)

colonialfan

Feb 28, 2012, 07:40 PM

Hi Absinthered,

Thank you for your interest and feedback.:)

I see you more or less included the Cree here
I guess this excludes them as a separate NA civ

You are correct. Ideally the team would like many more native civs represented but we are constrained by several factors. Firstly, the game needs to be balanced in terms of numbers of tribes within the different continents to avoid potential bugs and other problems. Secondly, there is a lack of good leaderheads out there that would adequately represent native civs. Thirdly, the maps in the game are only so big, and we don't want to overcrowd things.

With that being said, Algonquian seemed to be a more representative choice for a North American civ. We could use them to represent several native civs and given their widespread locales, could place them in numerous ares on a historically accurate map.

Anyway, what do you think of the remaining southern natives?

I believe we both suggested the same tribe. You referred to them as the Chibcha, whereas I referred to them as the Muisca. But they are essentially one in the same. The Muisca were a Chibcha speaking people. I like this choice as at the moment, we really don't have a tribe from the area of Columbia represented and with the Muisca some of their practices were largely responsible for fueling the stories of "El Dorado."

The other tribe I was thinking of were the Cambeba. We have the Guarani and Tehuelche in the south of the continent, the Tupi in the east, the Inca and Shuar in the west, and possibly the Muisca in the north. Geographically, it would be nice to balance thing out a bit and have a central based tribe, and although not that widely known after the 16th century, when Francisco De Orellana travelled down the Amazon in the early 1540's, he did mentioned that the Cambeba appeared to have large expansive villages and were a civilization of some note.

I'm really curious on your opinion after the conversation we had with raystuttgart

I'm not sure what particular conversation you are referring to? But I will try to address the major points you have made.

1. Jivaro & Mapuche
Historically these names would be more accurate, but the team has decided to leave the Shuar and Tehuelche as they are. What with the additional work we have for other features this absolutely makes the most sense right now. I will at some point beef up the bio's on both tribes and mention the wider groups to which they belong.

2. Balancing
Again from a historical point of view, there should be many more tribes in North America than in Meso or South America, but for the sake of balancing we have to equal this out more than is probably desired. Essentially the game has to be playable with as few bugs and gliches as possible.

3. Comanche
Personally I am not too keen on adding the Comanche. We already have the Apache and Navajo, who and I hate to make such a sweeping generalization, were not too culturally dissimilar and who resided in the areas close to Comanche territory. I think three similar tribes in the same area might be a bit boring for the player? Just my opinion.

4. Chibcha & Mapuche
Already answered the Chibcha question. As for the Mapuche being the other South American tribe, I still prefer the Cambeba for the reasons I have given.

5. Mixtecs
I agree that given the smaller area of Meso-America, 4 tribes might make things a little crowded, but its that balancing issue again.

6. Algonquin/Algonquian
Before the final release we will make sure that the term Algonquian will be the only one in use, and no other spelling or variation such as Algonquin or Algonkin will be used.

I hope I've answered everything for you. If not fell free to post any other questions, feedback or suggestions.

raystuttgart

Feb 29, 2012, 01:15 AM

@colonialfan:

Mixtec (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306598&d=1321004237) (Central)
Southern 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13924) (other Background of course)
Southern 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306599&d=1321004237)

Could you please start preparing Texts / Bios for these then ? :thumbsup:
(No need to hurry, maybe in the next couple of weeks.)

So I understand we have:

Mixtec -> Central
Cambella -> South

For the 3rd one (also South):
Feel free to choose one yourself as long as it generally fits to the one good leaderhead we have left.
(I fully trust you here. :) )

AbsintheRed

Feb 29, 2012, 01:52 AM

@colonialfan
Thanks for the detailed answer on everything!
I can more or less accept all the reasoning behind these decisions
I didn't hear about the Cambela previously, but they sound like a good addition

Btw, What's the exact relation between Tehuelche and Mapuche in your opinion?
I had read different things about it on different sources
Could they both be implemented in the same time, or is it closer to the Jivaro/Shuar and Chibcha/Muisca case?
Also, what's your opinion on including the Pueblo?

raystuttgart

Feb 29, 2012, 02:01 AM

Also, what's your opinion on including the Pueblo?

Current thougths about really implementing a new Native Nation most of all depend on having a good quality Leaderhead. :)
When having found one of these, we start brainstorming about the Native Nation, that might fit to it.

So without further good quality Leaderheads ... :(

AbsintheRed

Feb 29, 2012, 02:04 AM

Current thougths about really implementing a new Native Nation most of all depend on having a good quality Leaderhead. :)
When having found one of these, we start brainstorming about the Native Nation, that might fit to it.

So without further good quality Leaderheads ... :(

Actually I was curious about the historical/regional reasons, whether they would be a good choice or not based on those
I'm already too familiar with the fact that finding suitable art can be real a pain :mischief:

raystuttgart

Feb 29, 2012, 02:17 AM

Actually I was curious about the historical/regional reasons, whether they would be a good choice or not based on those
I'm already too familiar with the fact that finding suitable art can be real a pain :mischief:

Our "decision making process" simply is very different. :)

1. Good quality Leaderhead

2. Brainstorming which Native Nation might fit
(Also considering aspects like balancing the regions.)

Having a good quality Leaderhead really is the most important factor currently.
Discussing everything else does not make sense without that. :dunno:
(These discussions would be just hypothetical without any real target ...)

Karl-Heinz

Feb 29, 2012, 03:01 PM

Maybe you could resurrect this indio empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimú_culture
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimú-Kultur

colonialfan

Feb 29, 2012, 09:27 PM

@colonialfan
Thanks for the detailed answer on everything!

You are welcome, I'm glad I could help.:)

Btw, What's the exact relation between Tehuelche and Mapuche in your opinion?
I had read different things about it on different sources
Could they both be implemented in the same time, or is it closer to the Jivaro/Shuar and Chibcha/Muisca case?

The relationship of the Mapulche and Tehuelche is primarily a linquistic, and a somewhat cultural one, quite similar to the linquistic connections between the differing Algonquian tribes. The Tehuelche adopted the Mapulche language and some of their cultural practices, though still retained their political autonomy. You could have the Mapulche and Tehuelche implemented at the same time, though the reason I initally suggested Mapulche was that they could be used to represent several tribes in an area, rather than one specific tribe as is the case with the Tehuelche.

Also, what's your opinion on including the Pueblo?

I have no strong objections to the Pueblo being included. However, it is another tribe in the southwest, where we already have the Apache and Navajo, and currently our leaderheads are somewhat limited. Personally I'm leaning towards a tribe from the great basin area, as that area has no representation as of yet. I was thinking of maybe a tribe like the Shoshoni or the Ute. If you have any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

colonialfan

Feb 29, 2012, 09:41 PM

Maybe you could resurrect this indio empire.

I have reservations about resurrecting an empire that had already ceased to exist before the Europeans reached the America's.:( That's why I've stayed clear of the Hopewell or Adena cultures. Besides we already have the Inca and Shuar on the western side of South America. However, if there are team members who really want this civ included, I'll research what I can on them and compile the historical and biographical texts.

Schmiddie

Feb 29, 2012, 11:58 PM

I think we should try to keep the historical evolution of the tribes/cultures in America. If the empire has ceased to exist before the Europeans reached America...so let the empire RIP... :)

colonialfan

Mar 01, 2012, 07:41 AM

@colonialfan:
Could you please start preparing Texts / Bios for these then ? :thumbsup:
(No need to hurry, maybe in the next couple of weeks.)

Will do. The Mixtec might be a bit challenging, as we have another female leaderhead, but I'll see what I can dig up.

For the 3rd one (also South):
Feel free to choose one yourself as long as it generally fits to the one good leaderhead we have left. (I fully trust you here. :) )

Thank you, I appreciate it.:D

On a completely seperate note, I think we should eliminate of one of the leader bio's I have provided for the Algonquian. I personally don't mind what one, but every other native civ has just one leader and I think we should remain consistent.

raystuttgart

Mar 01, 2012, 07:47 AM

On a completely seperate note, I think we should eliminate of one of the leader bio's I have provided for the Algonquian. I personally don't mind what one, but every other native civ has just one leader and I think we should remain consistent.

Of course, Algonquian will also get only one leader. :)

Schmiddie

Mar 04, 2012, 11:21 AM

Hi colonialfan,

ray asked me to design the buttons and flags for our three new tribes

- Algonquian
- Navajo
- Caribs

We need a logo for every tribe, right? I made a short research through the net and found - in my opinion - 2 easy and fine logos regarding the Algonquians and the Navajos:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=315313&stc=1&d=1330884848

The left one (the eagle) for the - Algonquian and the square for the Navajo. To my understanding both have a historic reference (please feel free to correct me :D ).

But I have no idea what logo we could use for the caribs. Do you (or anyone else) have an idea?

@ ray / all

Is the current color in the game for the tribes are already fixed?

If not, what colors should we use for the 3 tribes?

I would prefer something with green for the central tribes (caribs), something with brown for the north american plains tribes and with blue for the tribe around the great lakes / east coast of north america. This would be in line with the existing colors in the game.

Please feel free to discuss my suggestions.

AbsintheRed

Mar 04, 2012, 11:39 AM

I like them both, AFAIK suits them perfectly!

raystuttgart

Mar 04, 2012, 11:43 AM

Hi Schmiddie,

thanks a lot for taking care of Flags and Colors for Natives. :thumbsup:

I implemented only "placeholders" for both.
(So feel free to change both, colors and flags.)

These are the currently implemented new Native Nations:
(There will be more ...)

Inuit
Hurons
Zapotec
Guarani
Algonquian
Carib
Navajo

I suggest the following:

You and colonialfan take lead of the topic.
(Do whatever you two feel right.)

Of course the rest of us will give feedback. :)
But it will probably be easier for us if you present us some ingame screenshots after you have created first versions. :thumbsup:

Some infos about XML:

CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml --> Assign player colors and flags (<DefaultPlayerColor> and <ArtDefineTag>)
CIV4ArtDefines_Civilization.xml --> Define Flags
CIV4PlayerColorInfos.xml --> Define Player Colors

AbsintheRed

Mar 04, 2012, 11:49 AM

The relationship of the Mapulche and Tehuelche is primarily a linquistic, and a somewhat cultural one, quite similar to the linquistic connections between the differing Algonquian tribes. The Tehuelche adopted the Mapulche language and some of their cultural practices, though still retained their political autonomy. You could have the Mapulche and Tehuelche implemented at the same time, though the reason I initally suggested Mapulche was that they could be used to represent several tribes in an area, rather than one specific tribe as is the case with the Tehuelche.

Yeah, including them both may be not perfect, but still a viable option if you want to have more natives in the south (when keeping the north-south balance)

I have no strong objections to the Pueblo being included. However, it is another tribe in the southwest, where we already have the Apache and Navajo, and currently our leaderheads are somewhat limited. Personally I'm leaning towards a tribe from the great basin area, as that area has no representation as of yet. I was thinking of maybe a tribe like the Shoshoni or the Ute. If you have any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

I don't have anything against the Shoshoni or the Ute, just thought the Comanche are much better known, and fairly close geographically to these tribes
Probably that's not the perfect solution either, as you said the Comanche are somewhat close to the Navajo too
On the other hand, you already have Aztecs, Zapotecs, and Mixtecs in a much smaller area...

Anyway, your knowledge is far deeper than mine in native american civs, so these are merely a few thoughts from me in the subject

AbsintheRed

Mar 04, 2012, 12:04 PM

Just a quick sum-up if I may

So you currently have (or already decided on including):
North: Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Inuit, Algonquian
Central + Carib: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, Mixtec + Arawak, Carib
South: Inca, Tupi, Tehuelche, Shuar/Jivaro, Guarani, Muisca/Chibcha, Cambeba

Other natives that came up:
North: Shoshoni, Ute, Comanche, Cree, Pueblo, Cheyenne
South: Mapuche

Am I missing something?

raystuttgart

Mar 04, 2012, 12:10 PM

Am I missing something?

No, it pretty much seems complete. :)

After colonialfan has created bios for the next 3 Native Nations and I did basic implementation, we will have 21 Native Nations.

After that we will do brainstorming again.

A lot really depends on finding good quality leaderheads, as already mentioned. :)

Schmiddie

Mar 05, 2012, 04:56 PM

I had a look into the colopedia.

Is it right that we also need buttons for the other new native nations:

Inuit
Hurons
Zapotec
Guarani

???

In the colopedia they have all the same nation button (the leaderheads are ok).

raystuttgart

Mar 06, 2012, 04:18 AM

Is it right that we also need buttons for the other new native nations:

Yes.
As I said here, we need to improve graphics for all new Native Nations. :)

For now most important:

-> Flags
-> Playercolors

And after that:

-> buttons of Leaderheads
-> UnitArtStyles

In the colopedia they have all the same nation button (the leaderheads are ok).

As I said, I only used "Placeholders", so other team members could improve graphics.
(I am really bad with graphics. :( )

AbsintheRed

Mar 06, 2012, 08:08 AM

There is someone in the Civ V forum who is very eagerly supports the Chachapoya
He seems a little biased, but nevertheless it may be another idea for a south american native civ
I don't know much about them myself, but will quote a couple posts from one of the threads:

Ok well I can do that quick here are some images:

Possible Buildings/Improvements:

http://www.fertur-travel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/revash3-300x225.jpg

http://www.fertur-travel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/revash3-300x225.jpg

A picture of a Chullpa: (A Cliffside Mausoleum). Very important and distinct, mumification appears at its earliest in the Andes in these Mausoleums. They tended to be built on the edges of cliffaces/rugged terrain and are extremely hard to reach.

The Chachapoyan burial places are quite exquisite.

Here is a picture of Chachapoyan Sarcophagi which show both their Amazonian and Andean roots:

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/latinam/chachapoya1.jpg

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/latinam/chachapoya1.jpg

====================================

The Chachapoya were also famous for their forts/city construction. Their forts allowed them to fight against both northern invaders and the Inca for centuries. Their round forts can be seen easily via a google search, but here are some links/pics too.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3468476-Kuelap-Chachapoyas.jpg

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3468476-Kuelap-Chachapoyas.jpg

http://images.travelpod.com/users/keelaurow/thumbnail.xlarge.1.1309707848.artist-rendering-of-what-kuelap-looked-like.jpg

http://images.travelpod.com/users/keelaurow/thumbnail.xlarge.1.1309707848.artist-rendering-of-what-kuelap-looked-like.jpg

Now Chachapoyan unique units will/would be harder to implement. They however were famous for their maces and slingers. (Their slingers were more feared than Incan Slingers ever were) The problem is slingers are already in game.

That leaves us forced to use something with their maces.

I can't give you any great pictures for a Chachapoyan Mace Warrior (Or give you a better name really) but here are some pictures from a couple of documentaries:

http://www.natgeoprogramming.com/images/categoryimages/file/inflightimp-1909.jpg

http://www.natgeoprogramming.com/images/categoryimages/file/inflightimp-1909.jpg

http://tabulorasa.info/uploads/posts/2011-02/1298189748_e64a1601-7cd2-458a-ab99-082672503ec8.jpg

http://tabulorasa.info/uploads/posts/2011-02/1298189748_e64a1601-7cd2-458a-ab99-082672503ec8.jpg

==========

And here is a picture that could be used for the Chachapoyan Standard/flag/Symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Abisco_or_Pajaten.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Abisco_or_Pajaten.jpg

===========

Some pictures that could help I hope if you did want to make a mod of them in the future.

============

Some possible cities could include but are not limited to:

Kuelap, Revash, Huancas, Purun Llacta, Yalape, Olan, Leymebamba, Chilchos, Gran Vilaya, Condors Lagoon, Congona, Jalca Grande, Macro, Yamon, Rentama, Iyacyecuj, Meseta, Chachapoyas, and not all cities are listed here (While I know some about their culture, I am still by no means an expert).

The leader would be limited to one of their latter leaders before their end at the hands of both Incan revenge/Smallpox/Spanish conquest; Blas Valera.
Yes as a civ the Chachapoya were EXTREMELY important for centuries controlling the majority of trade in the region. Their cities were large (like Maya City State large), were important militarily (fighting the Inca for hundreds of years/along with trade, the Huari, Spanish, etc.). A lot of the mountain fort styles from the Inca are believed/theorized to have been borrowed from the Chachapoya.

The only reason the Chachapoya are so unknown despite former accomplishments, former influence, population, religious center (bodies from all over the Andean region were carried to Kuelap to be buried), architecture, etc... is because their sites were almost never excavated.

Only recently has real excavation been happening on the Chachapoyan sites. The sites are also far more remote than any Incan site limiting excavation. The writings about the Chachapoya from the Spanish were often times gotten from Incan sources and focused primarily on their wars and final destruction. They have also never been popularized in public (except via a rolling boulder in Indiana Jones).

====

Hopefully with the new wave of excavation of some of these Chachapoyan sites, the "People of the Clouds" will become better known to the public.
...
And when you say influence on the world, the Chachapoya had plenty. (You have to consider their world was Pre-Colombian mostly). They controlled trade that came through north of the Andes, in/out of the Amazons to the Andes, had trade with Easter Island, influenced the Inca and the other subsequent cultures in the region greatly via engineering, mumification, roads, having important religous centers that people came from miles to, etc. Oh not to mention they helped the Spanish in the revenge in destroying their rivals the Inca?
Not sure how much of this is actually a fact
But they do seem interesting based on this

Schmiddie

Mar 06, 2012, 10:49 AM

Androrc the Orc

Mar 06, 2012, 11:57 AM

Yes.
As I said here, we need to improve graphics for all new Native Nations. :)

For now most important:

-> Flags
-> Playercolors

And after that:

-> buttons of Leaderheads
-> UnitArtStyles

As I said, I only used "Placeholders", so other team members could improve graphics.
(I am really bad with graphics. :( )

Most of those graphics are already available in ColGold:

Flag DECALs:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/FlagDECAL_Guarani.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/FlagDECAL_Huron.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/FlagDECAL_Inuit.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/FlagDECAL_Zapotec.dds

Civilization Buttons:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/GuaraniBTN.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/HuronBTN.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/InuitBTN.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/Zapotec.dds

Leader Button:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion%20and%20Revolution/PytajovaiBTN.dds

Schmiddie

Mar 06, 2012, 01:51 PM

Thanks for that, its very usefull

Schmiddie

Mar 06, 2012, 03:41 PM

I have changed the colours for our new native nations.

Please note: This is not final. Maybe there are further little changes necessary to adjust the new colours with the buttons/flags I will make the next days.

But it is a first tendency (also nearly in line with the buttons above).

Feel free to test my changes.

colonialfan

Mar 06, 2012, 07:54 PM

Hi Schmiddie,

Great work on the symbols you found. :goodjob:

The Navajo one is very good, and consistent with popular Navajo tribal patterns that they used, i.e, diamond shapes. As for the Algonquian you are correct that the image of the bird is important. As with the majority of native civs in the America's and especially north America, the veneration of animals was culturally common and significant. The only concern I have with the image you supplied is that it is very similar to the one used by the Cherokee civ. There are no hard and fast rules that say we cannot also use a bird for the Algonquian, but if we are going to use a bird we should probably try to find a different looking one. Other options could be to use a patterned symbol of some kind or use another animal, an elk (or its horns), a bear, or a snake perhaps.

As you are aware native civs did not have flags or banners, like their European counterparts, and native american flags are the product of the late 19th early 20th century. So as along as an image fits culturally (and I use that term very loosely) we can use a variety of images.

In regards to the Inuit and Hurons, I believe KJ did some work on their flags. The images he used, especially for the Huron are correct, you can find them in the Leader Bio's, Civ Info, Text, etc. thread, posts #4 & #15. I haven't spoken to Ray about this, but I am assuming that we will be using the pre-existing flags that come with the civs in TAC. I haven't scruntinized them too closely but from what I saw those flags appear historically acceptable.

I've taken the liberty of including a few bird variants for the Algonquian and included a few other animals just to give a visual idea, we don't have to use any of them.

315469

315470

315471

315472

315473

315474

315475

I've also added an a few crude images I found that represent pictorial glyphs found in Caribbean caves. I doubt they were made by the Carib (they are far too early), but we could perhaps use them or something similar, just for variety sake.

315476

315477

Also I found a Zapotec image, that might be useful.

315478

Unfortunately I cannot seem to view the flags Androrc put in his post, so I cannot comment on them. If I cannot open them I might assk you to save tham as an attachment and post them in the thread so I can view them.

Hope this gives you some ideas, and please feel free to throw in your own ideas and suggestions, the more the better.

colonialfan

Mar 06, 2012, 08:19 PM

Schmiddie

Mar 06, 2012, 11:55 PM

Thanks colonialfan for your input. I will finish the buttons today.

But I have a problem with your links... If I try to open the images, I get this info:

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Can you check please? :)

colonialfan

Mar 07, 2012, 11:09 AM

Hi Schmiddie,

Here are the images from yesterday, I'm not sure why they did not open but anyhow here they are. Again they are pretty basic and sadly quite generic, but I included them just to give you an idea of the kind of images that would probably would have been plausible, in terms of shapes, colors etc. Ideally we will be able to find much better images.

Algonquian Images

315530315531315532315533315534315535

315536

Carib Images

315537315538

Zapotec Image

315539

I still cannot view Androrc's images. If you can view them, is there any way that you could post them in the thread as an attachment to view? They might be better than what we currently have and save us a lot of digging around for other images.:)

Schmiddie

Mar 07, 2012, 12:43 PM

edit -

Robert Surcouf

Mar 07, 2012, 02:51 PM

I don't believe my eyes :eek:

You really are good. (I mean both of you, Colonialfan for the flags and Shmiddie for the icons)

Great work! :goodjob:

Schmiddie

Mar 07, 2012, 04:32 PM

Hi Folks,

I told you I wanted to finish the buttons AND flags today...hm, I had to lern, that it will take some time to make "the perfect" (I'm a perfectionist) buttons and flags for the new nations.

Here are the flag and the button for the zapotec (next will follow). Please don't wonder about the unit graphic, we will change them on short notice:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=315549&stc=1&d=1331163042

And here are the buttons I have already finished and implemented in the game (they are not uploaded at the moment):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=315551&stc=1&d=1331163979

First Row: (Portugal and King and Shuar are not new), but: Inuit, Zapotec, Huron and Guarani and Algonquian.
Second Row: Caribs and Navajo.

Flags will follow.

colonialfan

Mar 07, 2012, 05:07 PM

AbsintheRed

Mar 07, 2012, 07:13 PM

Yeah, IIRC we used the same buttons for Inuit, Zapotec and Guarani in Age of Further Discovery
Good job on them nevertheless, I really like this composition!

Schmiddie

Mar 07, 2012, 11:59 PM

Fantastic job Schmiddie.:goodjob:

The buttons and flags look great. I especially like the Zapotec and Guarani ones, and the Carib image on the green background really pops.

I only have one tiny suggestion.:( The Huron placed a lot of veneration on the turtle, above most other animals, so much so that it represents their nation today. A turtle would be more accurate for them, but if it is a lot of work to change the flag and button, as long as the rest of the team is okay with it, I can live with the bird image for the Huron as well.

Again great job, I can't wait to see the flags and buttons for the other civs we develop. Let me know if you need suggestions for further cultural image designs.

Thank you.

No problem, we can change the logo for the Huron. But the turtle is already in use for the Arawak at the moment. Do you have an alternative for the Arawak? :)

Furthermore, we must check the need ingame unit graphics and graphics for the camps of the new native nations. At the moment there are only placeholder, but I think we don't need to change a lot of because the placeholder are already usefull. But If you could give some impressions... :)

Schmiddie

Mar 08, 2012, 03:32 PM

Hi Folks,

here are the first 6 flags (please ignore the unit graphics), the hurons are missing because we have to solve the problem with the turtle first. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=315623&stc=1&d=1331245807

Upper Row: Algonquian, Navajo, Inuit
2. Row: Zapotec, Guarani, Caribs

The flags are in line with the nation colours...

colonialfan

Mar 08, 2012, 05:37 PM

No problem, we can change the logo for the Huron. But the turtle is already in use for the Arawak at the moment. Do you have an alternative for the Arawak? :)

How about this one, its the Taino flag of the Antilles. I little bit modern but we might be able to get away with it?

315632

Furthermore, we must check the need ingame unit graphics and graphics for the camps of the new native nations. At the moment there are only placeholder, but I think we don't need to change a lot of because the placeholder are already usefull. But If you could give some impressions... :)

Sure, happy to help. I know KJ did some work on the Inuit camps that were really good. I'll try to dig up some more images of the other civs camps for you. But here is some to be going on with.

Algonquian/Huron Carib/Arawak Navajo

315633 315634 315635

raystuttgart

Mar 09, 2012, 06:04 AM

Hi Folks,
here are the first 6 flags.

Flags and Colors are very good, to my opinion. :goodjob:

But on the screenshots it seems like the flags cut through the units. :(
(Is this also the case with TAC flags ?)

Schmiddie

Mar 09, 2012, 10:56 AM

Flags and Colors are very good, to my opinion. :goodjob:

But on the screenshots it seems like the flags cut through the units. :(
(Is this also the case with TAG flags ?)

Thanks and yes, thats true - wow eagle eye! :D (I did not notice it until you did).

The flags "cut a little bit through the units". But that is also in TAG. The reason is, that TAG uses 3 units instead of 1 unit (three warrior are shown instead of only one in vanilla). So it should be also in the vanilla version, but you don't see it because there is enough space left and right to the flags from the (one) unit. But I think it doesn't matter. It is only visible - a little bit - if you zoom very close to the units. And the picture illustrates this problem considerably higher than you will notice it in the game...

The only way to solve this would be to use only 2 units instead of 3 - or we find a way to erase the flags a little bit from the units...(don't know if this would be possible).

raystuttgart

Mar 09, 2012, 10:59 AM

The flags "cut a little bit through the units". But that is also in TAC.

Ok, no problem then. :)

But I think it doesn't matter.

I agree. :thumbsup:

I was just wondering.
(I never noticed that in TAC but I usually don't zoom in that close.)

Just continue your great work. :goodjob:

orlanth

Mar 09, 2012, 06:37 PM

I really like the flags and icons, good job!

I bet the problems of flag cutting off could be solved by adjusting XML/Units/FormationInfos , (although I don't know the details of how that file works myself.)

raystuttgart

Mar 10, 2012, 01:20 AM

I bet the problems of flag cutting off could be solved by adjusting XML/Units/FormationInfos , (although I don't know the details of how that file works myself.)

I think Schmiddie is right.

It is no real problem because you will probably only notice when zooming in very close.
I did not notice this problem at all until I saw Schmiddie's close-up screenshots.

I believe we can live with that. :)
(At least for now.)

Schmiddie

Mar 14, 2012, 02:46 PM

Hi Folks,

I go on with the unit graphics of the new nations.

I started with the caribs. Most likely my result is not historical (colonialfan :confused:), but the warrior look like their leader (head)... :D

Feel free to discuss the caribs

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316127&stc=1&d=1331757963

AbsintheRed

Mar 14, 2012, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure what's the team's opinion on this, so it's only a question about your plans:
Is it necessary for you to have a different unit skin for all the native tribes?

IMO some close civs could easily use the same graphics
For example Arawak and Carib; Zapotec and Mixtec. Or if you decide to add the Mapuche then the Tehuelche and the Mapuche too
I'm sure Colonialfan can say which are the most appropriate civs to share unit graphics

raystuttgart

Mar 14, 2012, 03:05 PM

I go on with the unit graphics of the new nations.
I started with the caribs.

I really like it. :goodjob:
:clap:

As I said, the best way to my opinion, is to have the units look generally similar to the leader.
Thus it is relatively easy to match Unit <-> Leader / Civ.

Is it necessary for you to have a different unit skin for all the native tribes?

Not totally necessary, but really great to have. :D

AbsintheRed

Mar 14, 2012, 03:18 PM

Not totally necessary, but really great to have. :D

Even if it's not too historic?
I mean, I can't really imagine the Zapotecs and Mixtecs having totally different looks, just because their leaders are represented differently in the mod
Also, in this case: I really like the graphic Schmiddie, awesome work on that!
But I'm not sure if this total body paint is accurate for a caribbean tribe

Schmiddie

Mar 14, 2012, 03:38 PM

We will have different unit graphics for all native nations.

But...don't worry. The problem is already solved. :)

We use similar "nif-packs" for similar nations. Hence, the nations WILL look similar (haircut, weapons etc.). We will just modify the colours a little bit and maybe make some little improvements (if I will be able to use blender and nifskope... lol). The caribs maybe are an exeptional case... ;)

And the same with the city graphics of the native nations. We will use similar graphics for similar tribes (e.g. Huron / Iroquois; caribs / arawak). But I will try to implement some different but typical tents or houses to make them unique.

AbsintheRed

Mar 14, 2012, 04:01 PM

raystuttgart

Mar 14, 2012, 04:12 PM

But I'm not sure if this total body paint is accurate for a caribbean tribe.

We already had that discussion, when choosing the Leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306596&d=1321002580) for caribs. :)

Generally we will try to be historic. :thumbsup:

agaro

Mar 14, 2012, 04:42 PM

Generally I support historical accuracy, and logical constructions.

But the Carib guy gives me such a big smile every time he comes on my screen - I vote to keep him no matter what. In fact when I work out how I am going to add him as my avatar.

And if his braves look similar, even better. Where do I buy the spin-off merchandising action figure?

orlanth

Mar 14, 2012, 05:03 PM

Yes I also like the custom graphics. :king:

Here are a couple units I came across in Fall Further that could have potential use for the mod (one is a native warrior, the second could fit as a bandit or pirate if you alter the mask.)

colonialfan

Mar 14, 2012, 05:20 PM

I'm not sure if this total body paint is accurate for a caribbean tribe

Perhaps not their total bodies, but I went through some very early Spanish colonial archives, (Sadly I don't know Spanish so I am at the mercy of the skill and aptitude of the translation :() and I did find a few vague references (a few words literally) that mentioned body paint being seen on a few Carib warriors. Or at least the Spanish assumed they were Carib warriors. Unfortunately, they neglected to mention to what extent the warriors were painted or what color.

I would imagine the Caribs would have been painted for intimidation purposes rather than camouflage, so it would be logical it would have been a bright color like a blue, red or a yellow, very much like ancient Celtic, Gual and Germanic warriors were painted.

Schmiddie

Mar 14, 2012, 05:28 PM

Thanks! Especially the native is usefull (at the moment). But the unit needs to be modified. At the moment it doesn't work accurate.

AbsintheRed

Mar 14, 2012, 05:45 PM

Perhaps not their total bodies, but I went through some very early Spanish colonial archives, (Sadly I don't know Spanish so I am at the mercy of the skill and aptitude of the translation :() and I did find a few vague references (a few words literally) that mentioned body paint being seen on a few Carib warriors. Or at least the Spanish assumed they were Carib warriors. Unfortunately, they neglected to mention to what extent the warriors were painted or what color.

I would imagine the Caribs would have been painted for intimidation purposes rather than camouflage, so it would be logical it would have been a bright color like a blue, red or a yellow, very much like ancient Celtic, Gual and Germanic warriors were painted.

Probably it wasn't a full body paint, at least it seems very unlikely to me
But yeah, you convinced me
It sounds reasonable enough to use it that way in the mod :)
Especially since Schmiddie's units look way too badass to be left out ;)

orlanth

Mar 14, 2012, 06:26 PM

Thanks! Especially the native is usefull (at the moment). But the unit needs to be modified. At the moment it doesn't work accurate.
Probably the .kfm files used from Civ4BTS need to be included as well (and maybe some in Assets/Art/Shared , if the nif references some .dds files from there).

The best resource I have found for unit nifs in Civ4Col is Deliverator's tutorial at
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=317419

Using these steps most imports seem to be successful. However, I've still encountered a number of nifs that don't seem to import and I can't figure out why. :confused: For example many of the new unit nifs made by Saibotlieh on civfanatics I was unable to import. Has anything like this happened to you so far?

Schmiddie

Mar 15, 2012, 12:53 AM

Especially since Schmiddie's units look way too badass to be left out ;)

:D :thanx:

Probably the .kfm files used from Civ4BTS need to be included as well (and maybe some in Assets/Art/Shared , if the nif references some .dds files from there).

Yes, I know. But I don't have Civ 4 or Civ4BTS. So I used the files from other units already included (and based upon a corresponding model like the aztec), but even so they don't work.

Maybe you can share the corresponding missing civ4BTS files (animation, kfm)? Then I will try the tutorial...

Schmiddie

Mar 15, 2012, 01:46 PM

I made some further improvements regarding the graphic of the caribs.

I hope you see the difference... I used the graphic of the leaderhead, now the warrior looks much better...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316127&stc=1&d=1331757963

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316204&stc=1&d=1331840767

raystuttgart

Mar 15, 2012, 02:24 PM

Could the hands of the units be blue, too ?
(It would look much better to my opinion.)

Otherwise the unit-graphics for Carib look really great. :goodjob:

Schmiddie

Mar 15, 2012, 03:11 PM

Hm, I think they look more realistic (don't know why...) if they are not blue...

I had an idea regarding the Algonquian graphics: The 4 standard graphics for natives are not used in the game, since we use own graphics for every native nation, right? But that are nice graphics. I would like to use this graphics for the Algonquian nation. They look a little bit different, but that should not be a real problem - the Algonquians are a family of different tribes.

Does that suit?

raystuttgart

Mar 16, 2012, 12:33 AM

Hm, I think they look more realistic (don't know why...) if they are not blue...

Ok. :)

Does that suit?

It would be easier for us to give feedback, if we had a screenshot. :)

AbsintheRed

Mar 16, 2012, 04:55 AM

Could the hands of the units be blue, too ?
(It would look much better to my opinion.)

I would also go with blue

agaro

Mar 18, 2012, 06:27 PM

Approved! Again perhaps not historically accurate but she adds to gameplay.

Her Royal Hotness also comes with her own personal boudoir music, good choice whoever is responsible.

Schmiddie

Mar 19, 2012, 01:02 AM

Approved!

So, the team wants blue hands back? :confused:

raystuttgart

Mar 19, 2012, 02:57 AM

So, the team wants blue hands back? :confused:

For me, blue hands would look better. :)
But it is just a minor thing and if you prefer to have brown hands ...

Basically I would say:
You are the creator of these graphics and as long as it is only about minor things, we leave the choice to you.
However, we will still give feedback, of course.

raystuttgart

Mar 19, 2012, 02:59 AM

Approved! Again perhaps not historically accurate but she adds to gameplay.

We simply sometimes have to make small compromises.
Also, the person and her bio are historical correct, as colonialfan has selected her.
Graphics might not be 100% correct but I also don't see big problems there ...

... good choice whoever is responsible.

Currently I am taking care of music (including diplomacy music for leaderheads).
But it is only my first suggestions and if anyone would like to improve, go ahead. :thumbsup:

agaro

Mar 19, 2012, 07:37 AM

One thing that I have always thought a bit strange was that the Natives travel around with the leader's name on them instead of their tribe's name.

The fact that some of the new leaders' names are quite long and unusual makes it a bit hard to remember which tribe the natives actually belong to.

Then the village tiles and surrounding land are designated with the tribe's name.

Perhaps the associations will get a bit easier over time. And I can see that having the leader's name makes it easy to remember who you want to talk to about the group of natives.

But I just thought I'd throw it out there to see whether anyone else wondered if there might be another option.

raystuttgart

Mar 19, 2012, 07:43 AM

Perhaps the associations will get a bit easier over time.

Let us leave that, as it is. :)
As you say yourself, you will get used to it. :thumbsup:

colonialfan

Mar 19, 2012, 04:52 PM

Approved! Again perhaps not historically accurate but she adds to gameplay.

Her Royal Hotness also comes with her own personal boudoir music, good choice whoever is responsible.

I'm confused.:confused:

I thought we were using the Awaikta leaderhead from Melcher as the Algonquian leader as she best represented the Algonquian in terms of physical characteristics, dress, background, etc, etc.?

316535

Are we now using this one instead?:cringe:

316536

Schmiddie

Mar 19, 2012, 05:20 PM

Hi Folks,

Here are the first 5 new graphics for the native nations.

Please note:

a) I mostly used graphics from the civfanatics/colonization community (free download section or other mods) or the standard game and improved or modified them. A special thanks already goes to bernie14 and Melcher for their fantastic units and/or graphics...
b) In the game they will be visable as usual (three warrior instead of one etc.)
c) I have tested them and they work well

I know, some of them look a little bit different (within one nation), but I think it doesn't matter... :)

And please...bee amicable, I worked 4 hard days and nights for this result ... :lol:

1. Caribs

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316546&stc=1&d=1332198988

2. Navajo

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316548&stc=1&d=1332199005

3. Hurons

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316547&stc=1&d=1332198988

4. Algonquians

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316545&stc=1&d=1332198988

and last but not least...new graphics for the Sioux:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316549&stc=1&d=1332199005

agaro

Mar 19, 2012, 08:56 PM

I'm confused.:confused:

I thought we were using the Awaikta leaderhead from Melcher as the Algonquian leader as she best represented the Algonquian in terms of physical characteristics, dress, background, etc, etc.?

316535

Are we now using this one instead?:cringe:

316536

I'm not surprised to hear you say that and I think you are probably correct.

Can we use the other one somewhere else?

agaro

Mar 19, 2012, 09:00 PM

Here are the first 5 new graphics for the native nations.

And please...bee amicable, I worked 4 hard days and nights for this result ... :lol:

Excellent work Schmiddie. I haven't seen the Hurons in a game yet, I expect they will turn up sometime.

raystuttgart

Mar 20, 2012, 02:31 AM

I'm confused.:confused:

Sorry, maybe I took the wrong leaderhead graphics. :dunno:
(I have a lot of them lying around ...)

I did not notice, until you said so. :blush:

Edit:

I have just checked melcher's downloads.
Seems like I have really accidently used the wrong one ...

I will correct. :thumbsup:
(And use the one we originally wanted.)

Edit 2:

Maybe we can use the one I accidently configured for one of the other 3 upcoming Native Nations ... :dunno:
(South American or Central American)

raystuttgart

Mar 20, 2012, 02:34 AM

Here are the first 5 new graphics for the native nations.

Excellent work. :goodjob:

Schmiddie

Mar 20, 2012, 01:49 PM

Folks, May I ask for a little petition?

If we change a leaderhead or another button which is already in the colonization atlas, please let us use the atlas as well for the changed button, or we will lose the overview...

I will amend the button for the changed leaderhead above...

If you don't want to work with the atlas, don't hesitate to ask me to change a button...

raystuttgart

Mar 20, 2012, 02:05 PM

If we change a leaderhead or another button which is already in the colonization atlas, please let us use the atlas as well for the changed button, or we will lose the overview...

Ok. :)

I will amend the button for the changed leaderhead above...

Great. :thumbsup:
But simply leave the old button in there, too.

If you don't want to work with the atlas, don't hesitate to ask me to change a button...

I have never been a big friend of the "atlas-concept", but it is no problem for me to work with them ...

Schmiddie

Mar 20, 2012, 04:44 PM

Ah ok. I have also no problem working without the different types of atlas, but I thought we could reduce the necessary files (download content) by using this feature.

Schmiddie

Mar 20, 2012, 05:13 PM

orlanth

Mar 20, 2012, 07:38 PM

They look perfect! Great work. :thumbsup:

raystuttgart

Mar 21, 2012, 02:40 AM

Very nice. :)

Robert Surcouf

Mar 21, 2012, 01:47 PM

Wow! I'm impressed. :bowdown:
Could you teach me how to do that? ;)
It would only take 4 years !:old:

Schmiddie

Mar 21, 2012, 04:32 PM

And here are the Zapotec...now only the Inuit are missing

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316661&stc=1&d=1332370954

Please note:

I made a huge update and have uploaded all new native graphics.

Feel free and test them! It was a huge update and maybe I reached not all files...

colonialfan

Mar 21, 2012, 05:02 PM

Sorry, maybe I took the wrong leaderhead graphics. :dunno:
(I have a lot of them lying around ...)

No problem Ray, I just wanted to clarify the leaderhead.

I will correct. :thumbsup:
(And use the one we originally wanted.))

Great. I would be a pity not to use such a fantastic looking leaderhead.:yeah:

Maybe we can use the one I accidently configured for one of the other 3 upcoming Native Nations ... :dunno:
(South American or Central American)

Perhaps. Although if we were going to use the leaderhead for one of the upcoming Native Civs, I would have to change at least one the civs to match the leaderhead. The leaderhead is good but I think it would need some tweaking to make it a better fit for a native civ?

colonialfan

Mar 21, 2012, 05:04 PM

I made a huge update and have uploaded all new native graphics.

What can I say except WOW!!!!!!!! Fantastic job.:worship:

agaro

Mar 21, 2012, 07:02 PM

Perhaps. Although if we were going to use the leaderhead for one of the upcoming Native Civs, I would have to change at least one the civs to match the leaderhead. The leaderhead is good but I think it would need some tweaking to make it a better fit for a native civ?

What about using her for Queen Isabella of Spain - it would be good to have a female European monarch and Isabella certainly encouraged western exploration. The leaderhead as it is looks more European than NewWorld native.

agaro

Mar 21, 2012, 07:29 PM

I posted previously that the foreign advisor screen is looking too crowded and doesn't allow you to see all the information clearly - I can't seem to find that post now.

I used the custom game set up to add a few more AI's to try and get all the Europeans to appear at once, as well as most of the natives. It didn't really work because I got both french players etc.

However it was useful to see what is going to happen - the foreign advisor screen became so crowded that the tiles even overlapped.

As far as I can see we are going to have 27 tiles - i.e. 6 European Nations + 6 Monarchs + 15 Native leaders.

I have started to think about new formats for this screen. Is there anyway we can code a 27 x 27 grid table:
- with little symbols in each box, indicating the relationship between the person at the top of the column and the person end of the row.
- then when you rollover the box you get a popup telling you the detailed relationship between the pair,
- of course the table would have a blank diagonal line down the middle because each nation would not have a relationship with itself.

colonialfan

Mar 22, 2012, 03:55 PM

What about using her for Queen Isabella of Spain - it would be good to have a female European monarch and Isabella certainly encouraged western exploration. The leaderhead as it is looks more European than NewWorld native.

That might work. A crown or something might have to be added, but I think it would be less work making her look like a European monarch than a Native American. It's spmething to think about for a future release.

raystuttgart

Mar 23, 2012, 03:41 AM

The leaderhead is good but I think it would need some tweaking to make it a better fit for a native civ?

Ok, then let us forget that leaderhead for now. :thumbsup:

raystuttgart

Mar 23, 2012, 03:43 AM

What about using her for Queen Isabella of Spain

Queen Isabella of Spain already exists as completely working leadherhead to my knowledge.
Why should we take efforts to convert another leaderhead. :dunno:

Karl-Heinz

Mar 23, 2012, 03:12 PM

What about using her for Queen Isabella of Spain - it would be good to have a female European monarch and Isabella certainly encouraged western exploration. The leaderhead as it is looks more European than NewWorld native.

We had thought of this. But all texts ingame are for male kings. We would have to change the whole texts + translations. Therefore we did not implement Isabella.

raystuttgart

Mar 23, 2012, 03:56 PM

But all texts ingame are for male kings.

Good point. :thumbsup:
(I guess, we better leave our kings as they are ...)

Schmiddie

Mar 23, 2012, 04:41 PM

I will make another huge update tomorrow or this night. I have improved a lot of units and will finish the work for the inuit...

Schmiddie

Mar 23, 2012, 10:45 PM

Here we are...the Inuit:

Warrior:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316866&stc=1&d=1332564078

Armed Warrior:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316867&stc=1&d=1332564078

I'm not totaly satisfied with the graphics, but I think it is a good compromise. I didn't find typical Inuit cloths, so I had to use this headpiece (wolf).

raystuttgart

Mar 24, 2012, 02:59 AM

I am not sure about the headpiece wolf. :dunno:

Wouldn't it be possible to give them a simple cape as headpiece. :think:
(Like their leader Tuglawina has.)

Otherwise they look great. :goodjob:

Schmiddie

Mar 24, 2012, 04:00 AM

Ray, as I said...If I have one, I will give them a simple cape... ;)

I scanned all forums here and tried to find civ 4 graphics via google, but I was not successful until now.

This is the reason since I used the wolf... maybe I could create one via blender, but this will need some time

raystuttgart

Mar 24, 2012, 04:09 AM

Ray, as I said...If I have one, I will give them a simple cape... ;)

Oh, I thought something like a cape would already exist.

But ok, let us leave it like that for now. :thumbsup:
It is not necessary to put massive amounts of work into something if a compromise works, too.

Schmiddie

Mar 24, 2012, 04:20 AM

Maybe you have one in your bing arsenal of graphics? It must not be a col 2 graphic, civ4 would be also ok

raystuttgart

Mar 24, 2012, 04:36 AM

Maybe you have one in your bing arsenal of graphics?

I will upload parts of my collection of units. :thumbsup:
(Migth take a bit ...)

Could the cape of this munk (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316883&d=1332585386) be used ?

Or maybe the one from the spy ?
(Very early version of a unit I had once planned for a later release ...)

Schmiddie

Mar 24, 2012, 02:22 PM

I made completely new graphics for the inuit, but at the moment they are buggy.

However, they look a little bit like Asians...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=316912&stc=1&d=1332620499

Im not certain regarding further nations. Are there still other nations on the list?

raystuttgart

Mar 24, 2012, 03:03 PM

I made completely new graphics for the inuit, but at the moment they are buggy.

Simply leave the ones with the wolfskin. :thumbsup:
(I got used to them and start to like it. :) )

Im not certain regarding further nations. Are there still other nations on the list?

Yes, currently colonialfan is working on the bios of our last 3 planned Native Nations.
For Release 1, we will not have more.

Schmiddie

Mar 24, 2012, 03:05 PM

Maybe we can implement new graphics with release no. 2 also for the inuit... :-)

raystuttgart

Mar 24, 2012, 03:17 PM

Maybe we can implement new graphics with release no. 2 also for the inuit... :-)

As I said, just implement the Inuit as originally intended with the wolfskin. :thumbsup:

After that, take a break from creating graphics for our new Native Nations. ;)
(We still have enough time until our release and you could do something else meanwhile.)

Schmiddie

Mar 24, 2012, 03:39 PM

Yes, the UNIT graphics are finished... :D

But maybe the city graphics of the new native nations need also an update?

raystuttgart

Mar 24, 2012, 04:54 PM

But maybe the city graphics of the new native nations need also an update?

If you are interested, that would be great. :)

orlanth

Mar 24, 2012, 08:17 PM

That sounds cool Schmiddie. Maybe you can find some good resources here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328300

colonialfan

Mar 25, 2012, 10:34 AM

Here are the first two of next three native civs.

Mixtec

317026
317027
317029

Due to a lack of information, I had to use the biographical data of an 11th century Mixtec queen. Any codices containing information after this date were long ago destroyed by the Spanish.:(

Muisca

317030
317031
317032
317033

Here is a picture of the Muisca and the leaderhead we are using. Not a perfect fit but not too dissimilar.

317034317035

raystuttgart

Mar 25, 2012, 11:06 AM

Here are the first two of next three native civs.

Great. :)

When the bios for the 3rd one are available too, I will implement them. :thumbsup:
(It is faster / easier for me, to do all 3 at once.)

colonialfan

Mar 25, 2012, 11:08 AM

Here is the final new native civ.

Omagua(Cambeba)

317046
317047
317048
317049

The Cambeba, are primarily referred to as the Omagua, so I think it best to stick with that name. However, their appearance is quite different from that of the leaderhead. we are using.

317053317054

To cover this I I have included another tribe, the Machiparo. They were negihbors to the Omagua, although not as well known. Their appearance would better fit the leaderhead we have selected, but the biographical data is much more scarce. It was was pretty thin for tyhe Omagua to begin with.

Machiparo

317050
317051
317052
317055

Whatever tribe we go with, Omagua/Machiparo all we have to do is change the background of that leaderhead to look more like a tropical forest. Personally I think Machiparo is a better fit appearance-wise, but I could go either way.:)

raystuttgart

Mar 25, 2012, 11:09 AM

Ah great, all 3 are ready. :goodjob:

Personally I think Machiparo is a better fit appearance-wise, but I could go either way.:)

Ok, then I will implement Machiparo. :)

colonialfan

Mar 25, 2012, 11:10 AM

Hi Ray, I accidently gave you the wrong leader text for the Mixtec. I've removed it from the post. Here is the correct one.

317056

Sorry. :blush:

raystuttgart

Mar 25, 2012, 11:12 AM

Sorry. :blush:

No problem. :)

colonialfan

Mar 25, 2012, 11:31 AM

Hi Schmiddie,

Here are some potential flags for the Mixtec, Muisca, and Omagua/Machiparo.

Mixtec
317057

Muisca
317058

Omagua/Machiparo
317059

Just to give you an idea of the kind of things that may have been on flags.

raystuttgart

Mar 25, 2012, 11:34 AM

Great. :)

raystuttgart

Mar 25, 2012, 11:41 AM

I was thinking a little about Mixtec. :think:

Would this male leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316) eventually fit better (although it is pretty cliche-like) ?
(Instead of this female leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306598&d=1321004237) which we have currently planend.)

Just thinking ...

AbsintheRed

Mar 25, 2012, 12:32 PM

I would keep the female LH art
Also, the biography colonialfan just put together about that 11th century female leader is pretty nice

raystuttgart

Mar 25, 2012, 01:59 PM

I would keep the female LH art

That is probably really better. :thumbsup:

AbsintheRed

Mar 25, 2012, 04:05 PM

colonialfan

Mar 25, 2012, 04:32 PM

I would keep the female LH art
Also, the biography colonialfan just put together about that 11th century female leader is pretty nice

:thanx:
It took some time to piece together the few snippets of info I could find on her. Mixtec codices are more of an interpretive record than a literal one, hence the rather vague details in the leader bio.

I agree that the female leaderhead is probably a better choice. We could use the male leaderhead, but the most appropriate leader to use would be Lord Eight Deer, who was also an 11th century king. Sadly there is no biographical data on Mixtec leaders much after this date, as any reference to them in Mixtec codices were destoryed by the Spanish. :sad:

Its not ideal to use a leader who died nearly 400 years before the game starts, but I'd rather use that than make someone up.

colonialfan

Mar 25, 2012, 04:51 PM

I checked the Omagua/Cambeba texts, and they are also nice
It would be great if they could be added as well, as a separate civ
The only problem is that they share the general list and the city list with the Machiparo
Colonialfan, maybe you can add a couple distinct names to the Omagua city list?

Sadly, there is less information on the Omagua/Cambeba & Machiparo, than there is on the Mixtec. There are two big problems with the documentation of this area. Firstly, the Spanish were not too great at keeping accurate or detailed records, understandably so if you spend most of the time paddling for your life. Secondly, what they did record they often misunderstood or got backwards, confusing the names of tribes/villages and leaders or using them interchangably.

So far, these guys have been the hardest to research. A lot of information was completely contradictary. Some sources claimed the Machiparo were part of the Omagua, others claimed the tribes that attacked the Orellana expedition were not the Omagua at all but a completely different tribe, the list goes on and on.

You are right about the village names. In fact the list I provide is not entirely accurate in terms of being Machiparo or Omagua. (The same goes for the generals names. Its a mix of leaders I found referenced in several sources.) The list of village names are a composite of Amazonian village names I could find in the general area that existed before the arrival of the Spanish. After the Spanish arrived what villages that were not abandoned or destroyed were renamed with European names.

If I get some spare time, I'll try to do a little more diging around and see what I can find.

AbsintheRed

Mar 25, 2012, 04:56 PM

Oh I see, doesn't seem like an easy task to research on them. In this case, the job you already done should be even more appreciated ;)
What about the Yanomami then? I may be wrong, but AFAIK they are from more or less the same area
Wouldn't it be easier to find some appropriate names and background for a native tribe that's still alive?

colonialfan

Mar 26, 2012, 09:11 AM

Oh I see, doesn't seem like an easy task to research on them. In this case, the job you already done should be even more appreciated ;)

Thank you again. The research was a little tough but it was fun.:crazyeye:

What about the Yanomami then? I may be wrong, but AFAIK they are from more or less the same area
Wouldn't it be easier to find some appropriate names and background for a native tribe that's still alive?

They are from a close location, slightly north of the Omagua and Machiparo. The biggest issue with the Yanomami is that there was I believe, no documented contact with them before 1929. That would make it really tough to produce a leader bio that would really fit the game. You would have to go on oral tradition and legends. However, I see no reason why the names of some Yanomami villages could not be used. Afterall, most of the names for the Tupi villages are either regional names or names of sub tribes within the greater Tupi family.

raystuttgart

Mar 26, 2012, 09:21 AM

Schmiddie

Mar 26, 2012, 11:22 AM

@team:

Before we go into further discussions about other Native Nations, I think we should clarify the following:

Will we add further Native Nations at all ? :dunno:

Please consider, that

1. We have already added 10 new Native Nations.
(... after the 3 that are currently in work are implemented.)

2. There are not really many good quality leaderheads for Natives around anymore.

3. At some point we should have our list of Native Nations "stable", so work on maps and scenarios can start.

4. Our mod is massive in size because of all the graphics we add.

---------------------

So I suggest one of the following 2 alternatives:

A) We stop adding further Native Nations.
B) We will add 3 more. And if we do, we do this in Release 1.

But after that, I think we should stop adding Native Nations ...

---------------------

Which variant, do you guys prefer ? :)
(Personally, I am fine with both variants.)

I agree with ray's suggestion.

a) As ray said, we already have a lot of new and wonderful native nations in the game. I think a lot of player do not need more native nations obligatory.

Maybe we can consider the idea of new nations after we habe done all other work and suggestions we would like to do.

b) We already have some big nations - espacially North American nations - implemented which stand not only for a tribe but for a family of similar tribes (Sioux, Apache, Iroquois, Algonquian...). If we implement more and more nations in the future, there maybe comes the point we become inconsistent with this approach and maybe we will implement tribes which already belong to a family of tribes who is already implemented.

c) The more tribes we implement the harder it will be to find adequate graphics...

raystuttgart

Mar 26, 2012, 11:27 AM

@Schmiddie:

So which variant do you prefer ?

A) Stop adding more
B) 3 more - which will definitely be the last

Schmiddie

Mar 26, 2012, 11:32 AM

I prefer A)

at this point of time. After we have finished ALL other work...maybe we fancy to play with the idea of new native nations...who knows :D

raystuttgart

Mar 26, 2012, 11:42 AM

After we have finished ALL other work...

Finished ALL other work ... you mean after relrease 10 ? :)

Schmiddie

Mar 26, 2012, 02:07 PM

@team:

Our 3 new ships are fully implemented now.
Curious to hear your feedback. :)

@Schmiddie:
Thanks for fixing the Europe Screen Graphics. :thumbsup:

Now I am back implementing "Last planned 3 new Native Civs".
(Muisca, Mixtec, Machiparo)

I will probably have them implemented until the weekend. :thumbsup:
(Then Schmiddie can take over again, considering graphics.)

I thought we were talking/discussing to stop implementing new natives?

:dunno::think:

raystuttgart

Mar 26, 2012, 02:21 PM

I thought we were talking/discussing to stop implementing new natives?

Maybe there was a misunderstanding. :dunno:

I talked about stopping or continuing after the 3 currently in work.
(Mixtec, Muisca, Machiparo.)

1. We have already added 10 new Native Nations.
(... after the 3 that are currently in work are implemented.)

--> Then we will have the 10 Native Nations I was talking about.

They are planned and decided since quite some time ...

We should really integrate the 3 colonialfan has prepared. :thumbsup:

Main Reasons:

A) Balancing of Nations
B) colonialfan has put a lot of work into it.
C) We still have good quality leaderheads for those.
D) I have started working on them myself already

--------------------------

However I wanted to know what to do after that. :)
(Because there were a lot of discussions about other currently unplanned Native Nations going on.)

A) Stop brainstorming and planning further Native Nations
B) Do brainstorming for 3 more which would be the absolute final ones

--> Here decisions seems to be clear to me: A)

colonialfan

Mar 26, 2012, 05:09 PM

Personally I think option (A) seems to make more sense. Especiaslly if we are to focus on the first relaese of our mod. I can concentrate on reviewing the interactive language aspect of each nation. Alternatively, I could continue to put my history background to good use and research other things for the team (such as units, professions, etc.,) and compile any needed colopedia info for them.

However, if the team consensus is for option (B), I am more than happy to continue working on researching further civs.

raystuttgart

Mar 27, 2012, 01:40 AM

If the team really wants Variant B, I would be willing to implement, of course. :)
(Variant B: Brainstorming / Planning 3 more absolutely final new Native Civs - after the ones currently in work.)

3 more - after the ones currently in work - is the absolute limit to me.
(We would have 24 Native Nations in total then.)

But then I would also want to do it in Release 1.
(I really think we should finish up this topic in our first Release.)

However, I would also be fine, if the team said, that 10 new Native Nations (21 in total) is enough.

:dunno:

AbsintheRed

Mar 27, 2012, 05:34 AM

I know I don't get a vote, as I'm not a team member
But I would prefer to have a few more native civs, there are still a couple fairly well-known civs to choose from:
(bolded are the ones I would choose from)

North: Shoshone, Ute, Comanche, Cree, Pueblo/Anasazi, Cheyenne, Seminole
South: Mapuche, Omagua/Cambeba, Chachapoya, Yanomami

Another option is to include a couple very important cultures, which were extinct by the time Europeans explored the continent
This is a game with lots of what-ifs after all:

The mound-builders of the Mississippean culture in North America
Olmec or the semi-mythical Toltec in Central America
Nazca and the Moche in South America

raystuttgart

Mar 27, 2012, 05:45 AM

I know I don't get a vote, as I'm not a team member

You are still free to give your opinion. :)

But I would prefer to have a few more native civs, there are still a couple fairly well-known civs to choose from:

We already have 10 new Native Nations, meaning 21 in total !
(3 of them currently in work.)

The arguments for not adding too many more Native Nations are heavy however.

-> Balancing
-> Performance (because of all the new graphics)
-> Screens (Diplomacy)
-> Availability of good graphics
...

As I said, if the team really wants to, we could brainstorm and discuss max 3 more from my side.

For everything else, I will put my veto.
(Like every team member can do.)

So the choices are:

A) Stop
B) Brainstorming / planning 3 additional, which will be the absolute final ones

Eventually a team member might even put his veto on variant B.

We will see. :dunno:

Schmiddie

Mar 27, 2012, 05:53 AM

I said I would prefer A) but I'm open minded.

I have some nice graphics, especially fo North American Tribes we could use. 3 more tribes would be ok. More tribes would be difficult...

raystuttgart

Mar 27, 2012, 06:16 AM

Schmiddie, coloniafan and myself would do the work for further Native Nations.
All 3 of us are pretty much open minded for both variants.

Thus I suggest the following compromise:
(If there is no veto from any team member ...)

If colonialfan should create bios for 3 more Native Nations before Pre-Release-Testing of Release 1 starts (in a few weeks), we will implement these.
These 3 will however be the absolutely last Native Nations we will add.

@colonialfan:
If you want to, make a first suggestion for the last 3 Native Nations.
If the team agrees, you could create bios for these.

@team:
Everybody ok with that compromise ? :)
(If not, simply tell it.)

colonialfan

Mar 27, 2012, 04:40 PM

If colonialfan should create bios for 3 more Native Nations before Pre-Release-Testing of Release 1 starts (in a few weeks), we will implement these.

I can get three native civs to you by mid April, say the 14th, depending on what civs we choose.

@colonialfan:
If you want to, make a first suggestion for the last 3 Native Nations.
If the team agrees, you could create bios for these.

Sure. Just a few questions.

1. What continents do we want them from? I don't want to cause balancing issues.
2. What leaderheads do we have left available?

Schmiddie

Mar 27, 2012, 04:47 PM

Maybe one of the north, one of the central and one of the south?

For the north I like one of these: Shoshone, Comanche, Cheyenne

But this is only my personal view, the team may decide.

AbsintheRed

Mar 27, 2012, 05:05 PM

If it fits the balancing, I would suggest 2 north and 1 south
There are not too many good candidates left in the central area

raystuttgart

Mar 28, 2012, 02:29 AM

Ok, guys we still have these leaderheads

Low Quality 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/pachacuti_57z.jpg)

Acceptable Quality 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306602&d=1321004706)
Acceptable Quality 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg)
Acceptable Quality 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11771)

Good Quality 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16341)
Good Quality 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14384)
Good Quality 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316)

---------------------
I would also suggest:

2 North, 1 South <-- Should be ok for our Balancing
or
1 North, 1 Central, 1 South

Schmiddie

Mar 28, 2012, 05:26 AM

If we don't find a propper leaderhead for the North, we could change an existing one...this should be no big problem.

2 North and 1 South is ok for me.

raystuttgart

Mar 28, 2012, 08:09 AM

2 North and 1 South is ok for me.

For me both variants would be ok, too. :)

A) 2 North, 1 South
B) 1 North, 1 Central, 1 South

I guess, we first let colonialfan make suggestions and then decide based on that. :thumbsup:

agaro

Mar 28, 2012, 06:48 PM

I want to ask about a screen - I think it is called Military Advisor - the one with all the leaderheads along the bottom, a big map and a list of individual units down the left had side.

With all the new natives tribes we are using more colors - more shades of the same primary color and darker shades than we were previously.

This screen is used to indicate where all the tribes are located - you select a leaderhead and their area (or units) appear on the full map as colored squares. The map terrain on this screen has the same shading variations as the main map:
- your own cultural area (and a little around it is bright),
- areas you haven't explored are blacked out, and
- areas you have explored, but are away from your area are in between (let's call them greyed out).

The issues I have with this screen concern the greyed out areas of the full map:
- when you select a leaderhead with a dark color shade the units area are barely visible, sometimes I have to select the leader on and off a few times to pick up what is changing.
- when you select several leaderheads with similar color shades the units / areas aren't very easy to distinguish from each other.

My question:
Is it possible to make the greyed out area of the map lighter/brighter so the colors stand out more? (of course without interfering with what information lists on the left hand side as individually visible units).

raystuttgart

Mar 30, 2012, 05:01 AM

@Schmiddie:

Your changes to colours and flags are wonderful. :goodjob:
I also like the new background of Serpent Quechquemitl. :)

Could you also take a look at the background of Machipara, please ?
(It looks a little bit too much like a tropical island.)

raystuttgart

Mar 30, 2012, 05:39 AM

@Schmiddie:

I found a mod (http://www.civforum.de/showthread.php?70606-Das-neue-Mittelalter-Mod-Willkommen-auf-dem-Schlachtfeld-der-Ehre), that seems to have some graphics for Natives, that might be useful.

Especially the one with the eagle-like headpiece might be interesting. :dunno:

see here:

http://www.civforum.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=507355

colonialfan

Mar 30, 2012, 03:47 PM

Hi guys,

I've done a little research for the three remaining civs and come up with a few options, based on balancing , appropriate looking leaderheads, geographical placement and available biographical/cultural info.

I've included a map to help explain my choices. It it is very crude and the placement of civs is only a rough approximate but it gives you a general idea.

317654

Option 1 - 2 North American Civs / 1 South American Civ

North American civs

1. Shoshone - They could occupy the great basin area that is currently unrepresented.
2. Naz Perce - Could be used but are the least similar to the leaderheads we have.

317655
Would be a better match for the Shoshone than the Naz Perce

317656
Would be okay for the Shoshone, if the background was changed. Maybe a grass background instead of desert.

3. Cheyenne - Could be used but they are an Algonquian speaking tribe.:(

4. Pawnee - Would occupy another area not yet represented. We have a pretty good leaderhead for them and they were bitter rivals of the Sioux.

317657

5. Comanche - Again would occupy an unrepresented area, and we have a leaderhead for them. Downside is they are geographically quite close to the Navajo and Apache and culturally are not too dissimilar either.

317658
Could be used for the Comanche

South American Civ

This one was a little harder due to really no good leaderheads to fit any remaining civ. However, let me run something past the group. We could use a non contacted civ. That is a civ where there has not been sufficient outside contact with. I was thinking of the Toromona.

7. Toromona - They were allegedly the protectors of the Inca, and guardians to the city of Paititi, the mythic unfound city where the Inca sent their remaining treasure for safe keeping. They also met and drove back the Spanish in several battles, defeating them badly enough to prevent any kind of Spanish occupation of their lands. In fact they are still listed as a non contacted tribe. They also occupy an area not yet represented. It adds a bit of variety to the civs!

317659
Could be used for the Toromona. No-one really knows what they looked like and this guy looks bad-ass enough to kick some butt.

If the team does not want to pursue the Toromona civ, then I would suggest either the Cambeba or Mapulche, although neither one of them fits with the leaderhead.

Option 2 - 1 North American Civ / 1 Central American Civ / 1 South American Civ

If we pick one of the North American Civs, and a South American Civ, then I suggest the Guaymi as a Central American Civ.

6. Guaymi - They are not that well known but they are further south than the other civs in that area, helping to space out an already crowded section of the map.

317660
Could be used for the Guaymi

Personally I could go with either option, and I'm open to any suggestions. If somebody really wants a civ represented from those mentioned above please speak out.

If we choose option 1, then I would suggest the Shoshone and Pawnee for North America and Toromona for South America. If we choose option 2, I would pick the Shoshone for North America, the Toromona for South America, and use the Guaymi for Central America.

Let me know what you guys think.

Schmiddie

Mar 30, 2012, 07:08 PM

As always colonialfan... I suppose you are right, but I can't open all your attachments... :dunno:

raystuttgart

Mar 31, 2012, 01:13 AM

I suppose you are right, but I can't open all your attachments...

Me neither. :(

@colonialfan:
I suppose you wanted to link the leaderheads I had listed.
Could you please try to link them again. :thumbsup:
(Using hyperlinks instead of ATTACH.)

However, from what I read in colonialfan's post and considering our available leaderheads, I would go for these 3 Civs:
(Variant: 2 North, 1 South)

Shoshone (North), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg)
Commanche (North), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11771)
Toromona ( South), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316)

Schmiddie

Mar 31, 2012, 02:58 AM

Should we try to find a better leaderhead for the shoshone? ...this one is, hm...insufficient...:rolleyes::dunno:

raystuttgart

Mar 31, 2012, 03:25 AM

Should we try to find a better leaderhead for the shoshone?

Sure, go ahead. :thumbsup:
It would be fantastic, if anybody finds better ones. :)

I simply couldn't find any other good leaderheads for Natives anymore ... :(
(I have been searching the forums up and down many times.)

Schmiddie

Mar 31, 2012, 10:56 AM

Hi Folks,

I have uploaded/finished the graphics for Mixtec, Machiparo and Muisca, but I didn't make screenshots.

Feel free to test and discuss the graphics

raystuttgart

Mar 31, 2012, 11:07 AM

I have uploaded/finished the graphics for Mixtec, Machiparo and Muisca, but I didn't make screenshots.

Feel free to test and discuss the graphics

Great. :)
(I will test tonight.)

Edit:
The new unit graphics are very good again. :goodjob:

colonialfan

Mar 31, 2012, 02:01 PM

As always colonialfan... I suppose you are right, but I can't open all your attachments... :dunno:

Sorry guys.:blush: I've reloaded the attachments, you should be able to see them now.;)

Schmiddie, you are right about the Shoshone leaderheads. They are not ideal but the two we have are the best we could find. They are closer to the Shoshone than many other tribes in that area. I think if we went with two other tribes like the Comanche and Pawnee, we would have a huge area of the map not represented. Just my opinion.

If the background of the Nanyehi leaderhead was altered and her clothes changed from blue to a brown color, then she would be a much better fit for the Shoshone, but then again if you can find a more suitable leaderhead, that would be fantastic. :D

raystuttgart

Mar 31, 2012, 02:16 PM

If the background of the Nanyehi leaderhead ...

The leaderhead for Nanyehi itself is pretty good.
But somehow I hestitate to introduce more female Native leaders. :dunno:
(I would really prefer to use male leaderheads if possible.)

@colonialfan:
Is this suggestion ok for you ?

Shoshone (North), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg)
Commanche (North), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11771)
Toromona (South), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316)

If yes, you could start preparing bios. :)

Meanwhile we could still be searching for a better leaderhead for Shoshone. :thumbsup:
(Or should we really take the Nanyehi leaderhead for Shoshone ?)

Edit:
The map showing the areas of our Native Nations is fantastic. :goodjob:

colonialfan

Mar 31, 2012, 04:14 PM

The leaderhead for Nanyehi itself is pretty good.
But somehow I hestitate to introduce more female Native leaders. :dunno:
(I would really prefer to use male leaderheads if possible.)

@colonialfan:
Is this suggestion ok for you ?

No problem Ray. I have bio's for both male and female Shoshone. The bio's for the males are actual Shoshone chiefs. The female bio is for Sacajawea (of Lewis & Clark fame). I can do a male bio, that's okay with me.:)

Meanwhile we could still be searching for a better leaderhead for Shoshone. :thumbsup:
(Or should we really take the Nanyehi leaderhead for Shoshone ?)

We could look for a better fit, but I'm not sure what we will find it, I think we have pretty much exhausted the leaderheads. Schmiddie might find something we have not. If we go with the Nanyehi leaderhead, at the very least the background would have to be changed as we are looking for a Northwest background, not a a Southwest background. Ideally her clothes should be a more earthtone color as well.

Edit:
The map showing the areas of our Native Nations is fantastic. :goodjob:

:thanx: Like I said it's just a crude representation of native civ placement. If we need a more detailed one, let me know. In the meantime I'll start working on the last three native civs.

AbsintheRed

Apr 04, 2012, 03:48 AM

Is the 3 more civs rule set into stone?
If there is good leader graphic, why don't add all 4 or 5 popular candidates from colonialfan's list?

IMO SaibotLieh's female leader works great for the Shoshone (with different background of course)
The early version of the Hiawatha leaderhead seems perfect for the Pawnee
While Capo's Cochise leaderhead is also great for the Comanche
The Toromona will work great with that LH
I also really like the idea of a southern Central-American civ, and the LH fits the Guaymi perfectly

So, personally I would like to see all these 5 civs, to a total of 26 natives:
Shoshone, Comanche and Pawnee from the north
Guaymi from central
Toromona from south america

raystuttgart

Apr 04, 2012, 04:26 AM

Is the 3 more civs rule set into stone?

That is what we have agreed to. :)
(Even that was a compromise.)

There will not be any more than that, sorry.
(24 Native Nations in total is enough.)

Please accept the team's decision to that. :thumbsup:
(In modmods everybody will be free to do whatever he likes.)

AbsintheRed

Apr 05, 2012, 01:12 AM

Fair enough
I just thought that at least the Guaymi would be nice, as you lack of central american civ
There are not many good candidates, and they are from a fairly different area, also fairly distinct from the directly mesoamerican civs
Anyway, 3 civs it is

Schmiddie

Apr 09, 2012, 12:07 PM

Hm, It is not easy to find a leaderhead that fits with the new tribes. I made an extensive research in the last days but did not find a better leaderhead.

I can understand ray...:D

Did we already make a decision which tribes shall be implemented?

I would prefer Shoshone and Pawnee in the North ... :)

raystuttgart

Apr 10, 2012, 01:22 AM

Did we already make a decision which tribes shall be implemented?

I would prefer Shoshone and Pawnee in the North ... :)

No real "decision", but 10 days ago I had suggested this:

Shoshone (North), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/cuaht_moc_2_NFy.jpg)
Commanche (North), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11771)
Toromona ( South), leaderhead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10316)

Nobody objected and I think colonialfan is already preparing these Native Nations. :dunno:

AbsintheRed

Apr 10, 2012, 02:17 AM

Gucumatz

Apr 10, 2012, 02:52 PM

Absinthered,

Thank you for your post on the Chachapoya, the information was very interesting.:)
I briefly considered this civ, but decided against them in the end, due to two points. Firstly, they were conquered by the Inca, in the second half of the 15th century, before the Spanish arrived, and so were a subjucated people under Inca rule by the time Pizzaro and the conquistadores entered Peru. Secondly, we already had the Inca and Shuar civs in that area. If you are playing on a fictional map, this does not apply and is no problem, but if you are playing on a historical map, it might make things a little crowded. I know we have several civs in smaller areas like in Meso-America, but ideally I would like to have at least one tribe in the major geographical regions on each continent.

Like the Mapulche, the Chachapoya are certainly a future civ to consider, and both these civs would be great to pursue if someone was interested in making a South American Mod.

If you come across any other civs you think might be useful or appropriate, please feel free to mention them, the team is always open to suggestions.

Guess I was the biased person quoted in the original post. But a few things factually inaccurate here. The Chachapoya were in fact still around when the Spanish came. They were among the people that helped in the conquest of the Inca.

In fact there have been Spanish Wares found in Chachapoyan cities and among bodies. The Chachapoya were historic rivals of the Inca but were a more Northern Civ and also had Amazonian territory so they would encompass more of the map.

The Chachapoya are believed to have succumbed to disease and then a final purge by their historic enemies. There is folklore about how after the diseases came a great priest/witch came and destroyed their cities and there is evidence of massive fires being set to Chachapoyan cities after the Spanish Arrival.

Gucumatz

Apr 10, 2012, 02:55 PM

I also suggested a Comanche Civ a long time ago on the Suggest a Civ thread:

Not sure if this is the proper place to put it but I will post it here too if it can be made of any use:

Comanche info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche
Extent of control, power, territory of Comanche http://oieahc.wm.edu/wmq/Apr10/hamalainen.html
Timeline of Comanche History http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Timeline.htm

Civilization: Comancheria
Leader: Quanah Parker

Unique Ability: Comanche MoonEvery unit killed gives a set amount of gold (Stacks with Honor abilities). Pillaging a luxury resource gives you that luxury's bonuses for a set period of time or until resource is fixed.

Unique Building: River Camp (replaces Stable): +20% (+5%) Mounted unit production, Mounted units start with 15 exp (+15), Pastures provide +1 Production and +10% Defense bonuses.

Unique Unit: Comanche Raider (Replaces Horseman) 11 str (-1) , +5 (+1) movement. Promotion Tu Motso: Every strategic resource pillaged adds +1 strength to your units who use that resource for up to 35 turns (or if the resource is fixed)

Schmiddie

Apr 10, 2012, 04:27 PM

The Pawnee and the Guaymi can always be added as extra civs though ;)
There is already fairly good suggested LH graphic for them
Also, a native civ have only a few unit types, and all of these civs have only one LH
So the additional graphic is minimal, thus a few more native civs won't have any significant impact on the game peformance

I respect your team decision if you guys are totally against adding more civs
But I myself don't really see any reasons not to add at least these 2 natives
LHs are at least ok for them, and they fit perfectly geographically, just look at colonialfan's map

Hi,

please believe me that I also like additional native civs, but it IS a lot of graphic work to do. I will need approx between one and two days / a weekend to create the graphics (ingame unit graphics, buttons, flags, civ color and maybe city style) for two new nations, if the graphics shall have a propper look (what I always want to), be unique and fit with the other unit graphic styles. When we create a new native nation the graphics should look a little bit different to the other nation graphics. This needs some time to do...

Therefore I'm completely against further new native nations after we have implemented the last 3 new native nations we currently talk about.