View Full Version : Human migration


Midgard Eagle
Oct 26, 2011, 03:27 PM
Just wondering, will you at any point code some kind of migration (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=444334)into your mod? That is, city population growing or decreasing based on factors such as happiness, health, food supply, safety, military situation, etc. of the cities of you and your rivals?

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 26, 2011, 03:38 PM
I just added Orion Veteran's Immigration mod in yesterday evening my time. However it is based on a unit.

Edit: There are some interesting ideas in both your thread and TheLopez's mod.

ls612
Oct 26, 2011, 06:28 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm confused. How is this different from the current orionveteran immigration module? :confused:

Midgard Eagle
Oct 27, 2011, 08:27 AM
How is this different from the current orionveteran immigration module? If you read my link, my idea is for migration to be a background process you have little to no control over yourself, like trade routes. Orion's modcomp seems to allow you to build Immigrant units at your discretion to reduce population in a city, sort of like when you whip people to produce units or buildings faster. In reality, at least in modern, free countries, migration isn't something government-controlled -- people move to and from cities and countries as they please, not because they a letter from the State telling them to pack up and leave.

Hydromancerx
Oct 27, 2011, 02:54 PM
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocrapture/Installer/campbuildingunit.jpg

https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocrapture/Installer/campchoosingresearch.jpg

I think we should allow for nomadic buildings like this in early game (at nomadic lifestyle tech). They can can be found in the RoH mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8884497&postcount=72).

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8632/civ4screenshot0014lr9.jpg

Also The History of Three Kingdoms (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11540) has a similar thing. Except it just enhances resources and can spawn units.

Perhaps we could use one or both.

BlueGenie
Oct 28, 2011, 06:53 AM
If you read my link, my idea is for migration to be a background process you have little to no control over yourself, like trade routes. Orion's modcomp seems to allow you to build Immigrant units at your discretion to reduce population in a city, sort of like when you whip people to produce units or buildings faster. In reality, at least in modern, free countries, migration isn't something government-controlled -- people move to and from cities and countries as they please, not because they a letter from the State telling them to pack up and leave.

I don't agree with this. People move to and from countries by invitation all the time. BIG examples are:
North America: During the colonial times lots of people in Europe were encouraged to go across the ocean to live in North America.
For slavery lots and lots of Africans were shipped over to North America by force. This was then encouraged by many governments in North America.
Australia: Unwanted elements from mainly England were shipped over to Australia.
Europe: Since the industrial age several countries in Europe have invited people to immigrate to them because of lack of certain types of working people, be it labour, engineers, or just a general lack of people able to work.
This last I should know since both me and my oldest friend came over to where we live because of that, in two separate waves.

Cheers

Midgard Eagle
Nov 03, 2011, 05:57 AM
I don't agree with this. People move to and from countries by invitation all the time.Not sure what to reply, because I don't know if you disagree with me in the first place. Yes, people are often encouraged by governments to move, which is why I said there should be policies the player can decide on, like restricting or encouraging immigration, or trying, for example, to keep unhappy people from leaving a given city. These policies could work on a city or national level, so that you could, for example, say, "I'm going to run a civic and national policy that allows fairly free migration, and I will encourage my people to move to this city I just took so that they will weaken the Japanese culture there. I will try to discourage movement into my city of Bjørgvin, however, because it's currently overpopulated and doesn't need even more people settling there".

If what you disagree with is whether or not there should be a Migrant unit... it's just mostly that I see potential for abuse. Just slap down a new city near or in your enemy's territory (for example, at the site of a freshly razed city), bring lots of Migrants along with the Settler, and voila, instant Pop 8 powerhouse on the frontline. I feel that if you're also going to have this level of control, creating Migrants should work like whipping or drafting, that is, you'll have to meet certain requirements (City size, civics and whatnot) and suffer one or more penalty (unhappiness comes to mind). Perhaps there could also be a limit to how many migrants can settle down in a city simultaneously.

BlueGenie
Nov 03, 2011, 06:29 AM
Not agreeing with government having little or no control over immigration and emigration.

Right now building an Immigrant costs one pop. For a large city that's rather steep and would count as a "penalty". A 47 City gains more from those 7 pop than an 8 city, in terms of science, gold, culture, GP rate, trade, and so forth.

Cheers

EldrinFal
Nov 03, 2011, 02:40 PM
Both methods have value.

1) Immigrant as Unit

Pros

Strategy element in the hands of the player: choosing to build, where to send, etc.
Could be limited to certain number of units at a time if need be


Cons

Possible abuse as mentioned with stacks of Immigrants if not limited



2) Immigrant as Background Function

Pros

Realistic in the sense that cities don't typically BUILD Immigrants (then again, they don't tend to build Settlers either!)
Immigrants could automatically flock to cities that are happy, healthy, and generally offer attractive reasons to live there
Aggressive strategy option to make enemy cities unattractive causing citizens to emigrate.
Cities with enemy troops (when at war) nearby may experience emigration more often as people flee to safer cities.


Cons

Happens automatically, removing some strategic element from the player's hands.
Could end up not being able to grow cities in harsher areas because citizens keep fleeing to better cities

Thunderbrd
Nov 03, 2011, 08:32 PM
I think BOTH are active in a true RL model. I've always wanted to see some migration happening at an automated level between cities and even across borders. (could finally give a good reason to have truly closed borders as the USSR did/does (do they still?) )

Hydromancerx
Nov 04, 2011, 04:32 PM
Perhaps al this stuff should be linked to the Immigration Civic in some way. Possibly disallowing migrant units with closed borders.

EldrinFal
Nov 04, 2011, 04:50 PM
Perhaps al this stuff should be linked to the Immigration Civic in some way. Possibly disallowing migrant units with closed borders.

I think at the moment there is a "Requires Civic" tag for units, but not a "Civic Disallowed" tag. If we just wanted the units allowable with say, Open Borders, the unit could be modified to require that Civic.

Hydromancerx
Nov 04, 2011, 06:28 PM
I think at the moment there is a "Requires Civic" tag for units, but not a "Civic Disallowed" tag. If we just wanted the units allowable with say, Open Borders, the unit could be modified to require that Civic.

That sounds good.

Thunderbrd
Nov 04, 2011, 07:38 PM
That would only disallow foreign migrants, and what state sends their migrant units to another state? Such civic choices should play into an underlying system that is happening under less than perfect control of the player. Revolution stabilities might even be able to be called in to function in such a system even if Rev is technically off. The concept would be to consider why people move and to create an automated process to represent this. The unit represents the state telling people to move.

Dancing Hoskuld
Nov 05, 2011, 04:06 PM
That would only disallow foreign migrants, and what state sends their migrant units to another state? Such civic choices should play into an underlying system that is happening under less than perfect control of the player. Revolution stabilities might even be able to be called in to function in such a system even if Rev is technically off. The concept would be to consider why people move and to create an automated process to represent this. The unit represents the state telling people to move.

You mean "10 pound poms". In the 1960s immigration to Australia was encouraged by both UK and Australian governments. If you could come up with 10 pounds you could immigrate.

Praetyre
Nov 05, 2011, 10:12 PM
There's also forced migration to account for, such as the Trail of Tears and the various relocations in the USSR. Of couse, one very important thing you'd need to have (both for this to make sense and for the whole immigration mechanic to be even remotely realistic) is that immigrants should carry their culture with them. The rate at which they assimilate would depend upon civics, order, wealth and what have you, and you could potentially end up with massive disorder if you had two feuding cultures occupying the same city.

Thunderbrd
Nov 06, 2011, 02:28 PM
There's also forced migration to account for, such as the Trail of Tears and the various relocations in the USSR. Of couse, one very important thing you'd need to have (both for this to make sense and for the whole immigration mechanic to be even remotely realistic) is that immigrants should carry their culture with them. The rate at which they assimilate would depend upon civics, order, wealth and what have you, and you could potentially end up with massive disorder if you had two feuding cultures occupying the same city.

That's right... refugees and their ability to take their cultural remnants with them... that's something that could/should be considered somehow. The destruction of Sumeria to the 'black wind' was what led to the birth of Greek, Hittite, Aryan, Norse, and even possibly Japanese cultures as refugees found their ways to survivable lands and brought their beliefs with them, corrupted over time by the effect of a sudden return to oral tradition on a (perhaps the first) society based on the written.