Click Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10985107#post10985107) to begin Game 3 of the GotM: VEM Edition. As fair respect for your fellow competitors, do not read the Spoiler threads before starting the game.

This thread is to discuss what happened in your early game - strategies, other civs, resources, events of the game, and so on. Please DO NOT post spoilers here about gameplay during or after the Renaissance era. Visit Spoiler Thread #2 to discuss the late game and post your final victory save.

Settled in place; scout, scout, worker, settler (I think). Went left side of Liberty first. Settled second city way south near the wine next to Monty. Built Colossus here, which took a long time but was able to speed it along by settling 2 more cities east of the capital on the 2 other Silk resources, sold the silk to Ramses and Askia, bought walls and watermill in the second city. Around this time Ramses finished Stonehenge, a good sign that the AI was ready to play. Destroyed nearby barb camps for city-states. Happiness was becoming an issue so I opened Piety before taking the connected city happiness bonus in Liberty. Monuments in all cities will give more happiness once I open that policy.

I prematurely started a war with Monty around turn 100 when I had units camped outside his borders. I greatly underestimated his Jaguars and lost 3~4 units in the process. I've pulled back and am waiting for 3 Satrap Courts to finish to go on a massive GA Immortal spam-fest. Monty finished the Great Wall so the GA movement increase should negate that problem.

Askia backstabbed me prior to the war with Monty, leaving me with 2 excess silks and no one to trade them to. I really hope there is another continent out there deprived of silk.

I don't really have a definite victory condition in mind yet.

My second city was off to the right, amid much jungle. Managed to grab Stonehenge and the Great Library in my capital, which was a great start. Unfortunately Suli came along and settled close to El Dorado, but i sneaked in with a settler and stole it off him before he could expand to it. Everyone seemed to be hating on Monty, and he had prviously decleared war on me, so I joined in and wiped him out. Science was a good advantage, although a long war with Askia was getting annoying, as I hadnt scouted out his area, and he was too far away.

Suli had settled much of the North, and Egypt the South, so I gave up expanding. Suli offered a war on Egypt, so i thought, why not? Turned out pretty well, except it sent me deep into unhappiness, so I had to call a peace. Science was well above everyone by this point, Although there seems to be a civ ahead of me in points D:

I settled on the silk, and built scout/scout/worker/stonehenge. Worked pretty well, second city was far SE near El Dorado. I did not get the great library, but I did get Pyramids and the Great Wall. (which saved me from a fairly early attack from Askia's cavalry) Askia settled for peace and we have been friends since. I fell 6 techs behind Sulaman, but caught up 3 techs by building the Porcelain tower and making 6 research agreements! The game is close, but I am ahead on points.

By the way, this game had a much higher level of difficulty because of all the marsh and jungle. Very hard to get around until you make Vanguard troops - even with a golden age move advantage.

I decided to play differently this game than I usually play, namely, no Liberty policies. I settled in place and stayed at one city until the NC, after which I settled 2 more cities - one 4-5 tiles east and another 4-5 tiles SW. I have built quite a few wonders so far including the GL, Oracle, CI, HS, PT and ND (bulbed with the HS GE in city 3). My policy choices have been all of Tradition (Legalism for temples after building monuments in all cities), several in Piety (left side) and will go all of Enlightenment now that I am in Renaissance (used a GS to speed my tech up into Acoustics). The ability to take both Piety and Enlightenment (previously mutually exclusive) was too interesting to pass up. I have stayed small and tall in order to keep my policies flowing since I eventually want all of the above 3 trees plus a good chunk (if not all) of Freedom.

Military-wise I have only built one Immortal, and basically all of my units are gifts from allying two militaristic CS. The CS gifts are fantastic as they start with 2 promotions. So far they have given me one swordsman, two archers (I upgraded them to Xbows), one Xbow, one knight and one chariot archer (I upgraded to a knight). Plus I have my original warrior (upgraded to swordsman) and one built Immortal (upgraded to pike). These units have been more than adequate to take out a lot of barb camps for CS influence, plus defend against an early DoW by Askia and a current war started by Monty. The 2 knights alone were able to wipe out most of Monty's army. My plan will be to build a few more units, take out Monty and annex his capital, since it is coastal (I need to get out and find the other civs and CS). Then I will likely go for a science victory, staying friendly with the other civs if possible. I currently have DoF and open borders pacts with Egypt, Ottomans and Arabia (the only civ I have met from the other continent so far), and an RA with Ottomans (I need to sign RA's with more civs now that I have the PT and am starting into Enlightenment policies).

I agree that the jungles and marsh are rough going. It is taking a long time to get tiles improved and I probably should build more workers. But eventually all of that jungle will be great for science and gold (after TPing). Population growth has not been a problem, but I have been running unemployed citizens for more production. I need to build universities ASAP. GS are coming out very fast and I have 4 stored up already. Currently on turn 135 (I think I hit Renaissance around turn 125, shortly after finishing the PT).

One thing I haven't figured out yet in VEM is whether to use some of these GS to settle Academies rather than to bulb to speed up teching. Would it be smart to build Academies on jungle tiles, or better to just TP those (assuming taking Enlightenment and Freedom policies)?

I popped one GS so far and planted him on one of the river marsh tiles. I'm using all jungle as villages to get the science bonus from Enlightenment.

I popped a GE and tried rushing Hagia Sophia, but after using the GE there was still 7~10 turns left to complete and it was completed by another Civ before I could finish it! What a waste! So frustrating!

What turn did you try to build the HS? I hard built it in my capital around turn 105-110 or so. A bit late because I built both the Oracle and Chichen Itsa first, but I still got it no problem. I used the free GE from the HS to speed build the Notre Dame in a secondary city (which built it in one turn because I had decent production there), and then I hard built the PT in my capital.

The CI is awesome with Darius of course. My current natural GA is 28 turns long (perfect for taking down Monty) and I will be close to another natural GA when it finishes (due to building the Satrap's Courts). Plus I have the Piety policy I can take which is a free GA plus 25% reduction in time to GA, and I likely will build the Taj Mahal right after researching the tech. Perpetual GA is the bomb.

I'm missing not having the Liberty policy or Pyramids for increased worker speed though. Taking 11-12 turns to clear a marsh and build a farm, or build a village on a jungle is maddening. Those guys are definitely working overtime and I had to hard build a few more workers so as not to be working too many unimproved tiles.

I'm having a horror game so far.

I got the pyramids early and put the settler to the east to get two more silk. The extended river to the east made me decide to go for four cities along its length to capitalise on the extra food from civil service. Went for civil service and got chichen itza. Also got a settler on the east coast at the river mouth to get el dorado and another silk just after askia DOWed me, killed some of his troops, then took white peace. Shortly after that Monty DOWed me, so rushed all my troops (mostly scouts upgraded to vanguards to deal with the horrible jungle/marsh terrain), killed a number of his troops and white peaced as well.

Ramses had a settler wandering where I wanted to infill with my fourth river city, so I asked him not to settle and he agreed. Suleman sent a wave of settlers out and I also asked him to not settle, and he promptly settled a trash city right on my borders. So I DOWed him and took the city- its placement isn't perfect but it could fill in the fourth position. Should have probably razed it....oh- managed to get the hagia sophia. Had my first GE sitting around with no wonders on my wish list so put in a manufactory in my capital instead.

What is puzzling me is that despite reaching all the landmarks I had aimed for in my plan I am last in science, culture, gold and yet to have my first happy golden age (just about to come). I suspect I won't be able to catch up, but will give it a go and see what happens. Getting universities everywhere and satraps courts is my current aim.

I suspect making friends with everyone was a very bad idea. Probably should have just gone for Ramses and Suleman and ignored the war mongers. Settling on nothing but silk has been problematic as well for happiness-maybe settling to the west on the southern wine and northern incense would have been better. I am at ~400AD and haven't finished a single policy tree, so a cultural victory isn't going to work. Being so far behind in science means a science victory isn't likely either. Given the others are running away I think I have to aim for a military victory once my golden ages start rolling. Suleman is first on the list since his territory is isolated from other hostile civs, and askia and monty will keep each other busy in the south.

I am starting to suspect that play testing a civ has been a big part of my problem. I seem to be following what worked in other games too rigidly, resulting in me missing all the cues from the landscape and geopolitics. This suggests that leader and unique traits are less important that the circumstances you find yourself in........

I decided to play differently this game than I usually play, namely, no Liberty policies. I settled in place and stayed at one city until the NC, after which I settled 2 more cities - one 4-5 tiles east and another 4-5 tiles SW.

I'm missing not having the Liberty policy or Pyramids for increased worker speed though. Taking 11-12 turns to clear a marsh and build a farm, or build a village on a jungle is maddening. Those guys are definitely working overtime and I had to hard build a few more workers so as not to be working too many unimproved tiles.

I settled exactly as you did, but took a mix of Liberty and Tradition, because I wanted to keep the capital building other stuff, and wanted extra, faster workers given the circumstances. I'm not at all sure what the best approach would be, and look forward to a comparative discussion.

One thing I haven't figured out yet in VEM is whether to use some of these GS to settle Academies rather than to bulb to speed up teching. Would it be smart to build Academies on jungle tiles, or better to just TP those (assuming taking Enlightenment and Freedom policies)?

My rule of thumb is no Academies after T125. With regard to jungle tiles, I would take the same attitude I always do: are they worth saving for later? If so, plant the Academy on grass. (I had no Academies this game, and did save the jungle tiles for science.)

What is puzzling me is that despite reaching all the landmarks I had aimed for in my plan I am last in science, culture, gold and yet to have my first happy golden age (just about to come). I suspect I won't be able to catch up, but will give it a go and see what happens. Getting universities everywhere and satraps courts is my current aim.

I suspect making friends with everyone was a very bad idea. Probably should have just gone for Ramses and Suleman and ignored the war mongers.

I am starting to suspect that play testing a civ has been a big part of my problem. I seem to be following what worked in other games too rigidly, resulting in me missing all the cues from the landscape and geopolitics. This suggests that leader and unique traits are less important that the circumstances you find yourself in........

I feel very similarly with regard to my own science standing at the 40% mark, and explore it more in my own game comments below. I'm not sure why multiple DoF's wouldn't be a good idea (more science) unless it backfired on you.

I'm not sure there's a downside to playtesting in general. I tend to follow certain patterns, and my finishes stay in a certain range, no matter what the (appropriate) civ or circumstances. That said, this is a very unusual start, and it's quite possible that anything particularly specific that you learned didn't apply.

I started by building a Scout, Worker, Scout, while researching Mining, then Calendar. My thinking was that getting a Worker producing asap easily outweighed the advantage of a second scout 14 turns earlier. This proved to be correct. I doubled down on the need for early workers by stealing an Aztec worker on T15 – the earliest war I have ever been in. This also paid off, as the Aztecs never attacked and eventually paid a modest sum for peace.

I researched the early techs then beelined for Civil Service, while building a monument and granary. Any thought of going for the Pyramids or the GL evaporated as they were both snatched up surprisingly quickly. I took Tradition, then went for Collective Rule and built Pasargadae on T50, on the hill two tiles below the silks south of Persepolis.

By then I had met the rest of the civs, and was friendly with all. There was no way I was going for a domination victory on terrain like this, even with the Persian GA speed advantage. I decided to focus on Science, and built Susa on T83 5 tiles east of the capital. My plan was to stop building there and acquire ports at the expense of the Aztecs. But when Songhai declared war on T78, I made peace with the Aztecs and focused on fighting Askia outside Susa. This was pretty easy – he had levies and archers vs my immortals and one archer.

I built Chichen Itza on T98 while pushing south toward the Songhai border. Askia agreed to peace on T115. By then I was researching Printing Press, which got me close to all the techs I’d need to take the Aztecs. I triggered my first GA with a Satrap’s Court on T119 – and then Montezuma obliged with an admittedly risky DOW on T126.

My pikes, swords and crossbows switfly demolished his army, and once I had two trebs I took his two-city on T155. By now Songhai and Ottomans were both very strong, and I had met the Mongols and Arabs. I had RA’s with everyone and built the Taj Mahal. This is a very unusual difference between my game and most of the others. I had essentially no opportunity to compete for the Pyramids, GL, or HG.

I then focused on gold and science while researching Astronomy. I also built two additional cities on the peninsula south of the former Aztec capital, to pick up all those luxuries. Maybe because my population was relatively low, I was surprised to find myself 5 or 6 techs behind my two neighbors. But it wasn’t that low – 13, 10, 10, 9, 6, 2 and 1. I’ve built science buildings and employed specialists, and have lots of RA’s. Because of how I approached the social policies as Persia, I now have completed Liberty and all of Tradition except Oligarchy and Landed Elite. (Ceremonal Rites went to Opera Houses; I played it conservatively taking Legalism and Monarchy to have an edge getting those two crucial Wonders. Still, I’ve noticed that my science-victory performance has dropped significantly – maybe by 50 turns since whatever version was around last spring. I can’t figure out whether I’m doing something wrong. One big difference is that I have been exploring not beelining for the NC over the last few months.

My plan now is to build up these cities as quickly as possible, but am debating whether to dip into Commerce before Rationalism. My guess is that I won’t, as long as the gold I have stays high. I’m pretty sure I can afford to ignore Patronage. In the meantime I’m readying my army for a two-frontwar with Askia (Susa and Teotihuacan), who is bound to come after me next.

As someone mentioned, the map is wonderful, with its highly strategic mountains and unusual amount of rough terrain.

I came to the same conclusion regarding Academies. They are not worth settling later. I put one down on a grassland tile and it was giving me 2:c5food: and 10:c5science:, which was increased to just over 20:c5science: with the 110% multiplier in my capital at that time. It doesn't sound bad, but using the GS to hasten a tech instead would have given me an instant 1200:c5science: (about half a tech at the time), which would have taken me 60 turns to accumulate from the Academy. Not to mention that without the Academy I would have been working another tile with more :c5food: and/or :c5production:. The Academies really need to scale up with increasing era for them to be worth using (unless you settle one very early, like after Writing when playing Babylon).

Science victories seem to take much longer in VEM (by design?). In vanilla I can usually reach a science victory by (or below) turn 260 or so even on Deity. I'm not going to come close to that in this game in spite of the fact that my science rate seems to be progressing as I would expect (I am over 500:c5science:/turn on turn 200). One reason of course is that both RA's and GS's aren't as powerful as in vanilla.

Another interesting thing is that the AI seems to be able to keep up in tech much better in VEM on King difficulty than in vanilla (where I would be way ahead in tech by this point). This makes the game more interesting at least - I have been neck-and-neck with Siam for tech lead the whole game. Now if only the AI's military strategy and use of :c5gold: could be improved. That would make the game much more challenging.

Science victories seem to take much longer in VEM (by design?). In vanilla I can usually reach a science victory by (or below) turn 260 or so even on Deity. I'm not going to come close to that in this game in spite of the fact that my science rate seems to be progressing as I would expect (I am over 500:c5science:/turn on turn 200). One reason of course is that both RA's and GS's aren't as powerful as in vanilla.

As late as the arrival of Korea, I was winning some science victories with Korea, Babylon and even the Aztecs in under 250 turns. At that point I began playing more for domination, and when I've tried science again since, have experimentally steered away from my standard Tradition/NC-first approach. As I mentioned, I'm doing much worse. It could be the change in approach, and I'll play a game with Babylon in the next couple of weeks to test it definitively. I don't know if anything in the game other than the RA mechanic has changed since - maybe less specialist slots?

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Another interesting thing is that the AI seems to be able to keep up in tech much better in VEM on King difficulty than in vanilla (where I would be way ahead in tech by this point). This makes the game more interesting at least - I have been neck-and-neck with Siam for tech lead the whole game. Now if only the AI's military strategy and use of :c5gold: could be improved. That would make the game much more challenging.

This is a recent improvement. The AI's science bonus increases with each era. As expected, it's made them much more competitive.

For some reason I am unable to ask Sully to stop attacking one of my CS allies. We have a DoF so he should immediately stop if I ask (at least that's what happens in vanilla). He is not at perma-war with them as this is the first CS he has attacked all game. As you can see in the screenshot linked below, the option is available to propose that he make peace with Venice, but when I click it does not show up in the proposal window.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594701250454755481/3FBB54E0DB740808C9A659F723F5CA28217479CA/

My girlfriend is playing the GotVEM right now, and the same thing happened to her.

Earlier she erased the prior VEM mod via the ModBrowser, then later discovered that it was still in the folder. She deleted it from there as well, but I assumed this (and other kinks, like question marks instead of some names), were due to the game having been corrupted from the start.

But if you're having the same problem, then I wonder if it has something to do with 119 ...or the map script, somehow?

Glad you're enjoying the highly strategic terrain! I also found it very fun in my test games of this map. :D Starting in a massive rainforest is slow at first, but the terrain is excellent once marshes are cleared and mines/lumbermills built. There's a ton of foothills available for production along the mountain ridges.

Trade mechanics such as peace deals and such are largely in the game core, and out of our hands.

It was very strange. Sully got the CS down to a sliver of health and then made peace! I guess he had a change of heart. I've never seen that before.

It was very strange. Sully got the CS down to a sliver of health and then made peace! I guess he had a change of heart. I've never seen that before.

I've seen it, but rarely. Since the human player didn't influence the change of heart, I have no what did.

Tried again after my dear partner stuck a screwdriver through the motherboard during an upgrade (really know to backup everything elsewhere before I let them loose during GOTM again!). But I think my first try was doomed by that stage anyway...sigh

Second time around things went much smoother- didn't try and force my expansion down the long jungle river. Headed east and west with the pyramids settler and liberty policy settler. Later took the north west position for the incense. Filled liberty, opened honour and piety. Barb farmed, got a dozen or so CS allies. Having Hanoi in particular was very useful to block Askia from expanding or DOWing. I conquered Suleman by 0AD and left him a couple of trash polar cities. He kept sending out settlers so ended up staying at war after a brief peace. Settled to the double silver to his East.

Took out Monty and Ramses by about 1000 AD (wonder mountain in Egypt!) then quickly took Askias capital at T200.

Just heading out to explore the world, mostly to culture farm barbs. Opened enlightenment and finding it isn't overpowered when paired with piety. Culture seems to be going very slowly despite building lots of culture buildings. Has there been a change in policy cost recently????

A conquest victory is possible but I think I feel like filling up my continent and growing cities while going for a science victory. Two science on trading posts (plus golden ages) is too good to pass up. Only just about to settle el dorado at this late stage (NWs aren't that amazing to settle without luxuries).

I've been in perma golden age as well. I'm actually finding that you could easily pass up the chichen itza, GA extending policies and taj mahal with Persia. If you finish the game with another 100 turns of GA waiting to roll it seems a bit of a waste of resources.

It definitely seems that Persia needs some more adjusting to make them interesting. I didn't notice the immortals healing all that fast (though vanguard medics are lovely for battle strategy). Perhaps the Satrap's court needs a happiness bonus instead of a direct GA bonus? This would provide better synergy with the piety policies that link happiness and culture. A plain happy bonus would be a bit dull- maybe something like a happiness boost for surplus luxury resources in the city? This would add something unique to Persia in seeking out city spots with multiple luxuries within reach.

Apparently I just suck at Non Coastal Starts because I couldn’t do a thing with this game.

I have played this game 4 times so far. The first time normal. The 2nd game I said well I’ll have a little bit of an advantage but I will try and play as if I would normally and not try and deliberately take advantage, 3rd game I said screw it I’m just going to go for the good stuff just to see if I can beat this, 4th time I decided I would try a One city challenge to see if I could slip under the radar.

Believe it or not I got closest with the 1 city challenge. Suleiman won with a science victory about 4 policies short of my Cultural victory in that game.

In all of the games basically I fell so far behind in tech that I could not compete, by turn 200 I was 15 – 17 techs behind the leaders. In all four games Askia declared war on me very early in the game and would not concede until very late in the game if at all. Hundreds of turns of inactivity yet every ten turns or so he would pop up and give me some ridiculous terms for peace involving everything I own. Basically from Ancient times through to Industrial I was at war in all 4 games. The one time he decided to give me a straight up peace deal the next turns he was asking for a declaration of Friendship (after 150+ turns of war that he declared).

Suleiman gobbled up every inch of free space there was whether it had a luxury on it or not and never ever had problems with happiness or keeping his populations down. All of the Civs except Monty had at least one or two cities that had higher populations than me even when I was doing the one city challenge and concentrated on pure population growth.

I was never able to gain a positive income of more than about 200 gold per turn even when I had a Golden Age going, thus I was never able to get more than one City State on my side for more than 30 -50 turns at a time. It was just pathetic. I don’t think I was able to complete even one CS quest.

----------------------------------------
Some weird things that I noticed. Dublin and Stockholm were both just to the west of the starting location, in all four games they set a quest for a Barbarian camp that was off the coast behind Monty when there were two camps at that time that were closer to them and harassing them.

Secondly, in one of my games when I was at war with Askia I lost somewhere near 12 – 15 or more population in my capitol. I am guessing it was due to starvation, but I don’t really know. I had just Micro’ed my city and turned on a 4 hammer hex to hurry the building of a knight I am pretty sure at the time I was not starving, but can’t be 100% sure of that. I think my pop at the time was like 22. Then I admittedly got caught up in the war with Askia and didn’t go back to check on my city for 10+ turns. But when I looked next it had a population of 2. I had no warning or anything?
Once you hit starvation do you lose a pop per turn until you hit 1 pop? Why isn’t there a notification that says, "hey shmuck you may want to go check on your city! You just lost a point of population and this will continue until you get over there and get them some food!"

Either way this seems harsh. Not right. I thought you were supposed to go through food the opposite way that you gain it. So you need to lose so many excess food before you lose a point of population.

Askia’s UU is super powerful. In my first three games I was doing fine right up until the point he started pumping those Horse Axemen out. I had somewhere near 8 immortals that had been upgraded to pikes and then even to muskets that had 3 or 4 promotions on each of them standing besides several Long swords and I had to throw sometimes 5 units to kill even 1 of his. Where he seemed to kill me by hitting me with as few as two units and him losing maybe 4 hit points per attack. He just ate through my massive ranks until I had nothing.

------------------------------------------
Lastly, I keep reading about people who can win Science victories in 250 turns, and Culture victories in less. I would like to see someone who can do this actually post some of these strategies in the VEM forum so that I can see what the heck it is that I am doing wrong. Would like to see strategies for this particular start as well, as far as what hexes you improved to what, and what your populations were at what turn, so that I can compare.

Everyone always seems to have gold to burn, population to burn, and happiness and I can’t seem to get far out of the box.

Super Frustrated.

In all of the games basically I fell so far behind in tech that I could not compete, by turn 200 I was 15 – 17 techs behind the leaders. In all four games Askia declared war on me very early in the game and would not concede until very late in the game if at all.

On King level, this happens only because your population's not growing fast enough. Make it a priority with a food focus, granaries, water mills, etc.

I was never able to gain a positive income of more than about 200 gold per turn even when I had a Golden Age going, thus I was never able to get more than one City State on my side for more than 30 -50 turns at a time. It was just pathetic. I don’t think I was able to complete even one CS quest.

I often have similar results when I focus too heavily on production instead of gold or, again, population.

Once you hit starvation do you lose a pop per turn until you hit 1 pop? Why isn’t there a notification that says, "hey shmuck you may want to go check on your city! You just lost a point of population and this will continue until you get over there and get them some food!"

That's how it works. There used to be a warning for it. And you are supposed to get a notification of some sort from City Notifications, if you have the option checked.

Lastly, I keep reading about people who can win Science victories in 250 turns, and Culture victories in less. I would like to see someone who can do this actually post some of these strategies in the VEM forum so that I can see what the heck it is that I am doing wrong. Would like to see strategies for this particular start as well, as far as what hexes you improved to what, and what your populations were at what turn, so that I can compare.

Let's talk about a science victory in this game in about 300 turns. You could do that by focusing on a Tradition/NC start, then focusing on Chichen Itza (not essential), Porcelain Tower (more important), Taj Mahal (less essential), and Statue of Liberty (shaves turns off SS build times). You wouldn't need more than 4 cities, which are very easy to nicely situate on this map (east and south of the capital, then further south for a coastal city). Build them asap after the NC (south, then coast or east).

The focus should be on growth and some defense. Build the granary and water mill in the capital, try to become allied with Stockholm and Dublin for growth and defense. To do this sell the silk asap and then expand south for the other one. Balance the speedy building of necessary buildings versus a default focus on food.

Delay your first GA (easy enough with this expansion) until you have Chichen Itza. Then near-perpetual GA's along with Villages will give you both the gold and science to win in around 300 turns.

@Duncan

Could you post your specific strategies in your attempts so that we can better offer advice? What was your build order? Tech order? Policy choices? How many cities did you settle, and where and when? When did you build the NC? How quickly did you get to Education and build universities? Did you build any wonders and when? Did you sign DoF's, open borders agreements and RA's? What tile improvements did you prioritize? Did you build many Great People? Did you use specialist slots?

I was also running at around 200 gpt for the mid-late game, but was able to easily support 6 CS allies (2 each of militaristic, cultural and maritime) even though I got into bidding wars with other AI's for some of them. Admittedly, I was able to do quests for some (like build them a road, discover Arabia for them, discover a new natural wonder, clear a barb camp. etc.). Sometimes you just have to get lucky with the quests.

The AI seems to do a decent job of teching in this mod. I think it is because RA's and GS's are more fair and not heavily biased toward human players like in vanilla. In vanilla, human players can game the system easier by hoarding GS's to use more strategically and by tech blocking for optimizing RA's. So outpacing the AI in tech in VEM requires conquest/expansion or high growth (population = science) as well as proper strategies with respect to city and tile improvements, social policies, tech choices, etc.

The AI seems to do a decent job of teching in this mod. I think it is because RA's and GS's are more fair and not heavily biased toward human players like in vanilla. In vanilla, human players can game the system easier by hoarding GS's to use more strategically and by tech blocking for optimizing RA's. So outpacing the AI in tech in VEM requires conquest/expansion or high growth (population = science) as well as proper strategies with respect to city and tile improvements, social policies, tech choices, etc.

The AI also got a era-based science boost recently.

Generally I start Scout Monument Scout... Or Scout Warrior Monument Scout... depending on the immediate threat to my area. I generally start by improving luxuries then food tiles before any mines or villiages. Typically I put farms on rivers and villiages away from rivers. I usually keep my woods and forests unchopped for mills and typically I put mines on hills. Overall letting the surounding area dictate what kind of focus I am going to have in any given city.
I generally try not to settle any area that doesn't have at least one luxury resource.

I typically get the Openers for Liberty and Tradition then go for the free Settler/Worker and the 4 free Culture buildings.

In the first two games I went wide. Settling all over the map. Was trying to balance happiness out right from the very start. (Seems in this newer version of VEM few of the Civs will trade fairly). There was only the Silk nearby to settle on.

I went for happiness techs and made Coluseums and Circuses a priority.

Overall I seemed to be gaining, until Askia got his UU. Once that happened he was unstoppable. Wiped out Egypt, Monty and then me in succession.

In my third game I built a couple of cities then attacked Monty and wiped him out early. Not to mention I settled right next to him, then settled in his siland area. Thought that was a pretty good start but then Askia showed up with his UU's and I was all done again.

--------------

In my one city challenge I grabbed Oracle and The Great Wall early so I could claim as much land as possible before anyone settled near me. I barely explored that map with just a splash of the other Civs showing.

Generally I start Scout Monument Scout... Or Scout Warrior Monument Scout... depending on the immediate threat to my area.

I typically get the Openers for Liberty and Tradition then go for the free Settler/Worker and the 4 free Culture buildings.

In my third game I built a couple of cities then attacked Monty and wiped him out early. Not to mention I settled right next to him, then settled in his siland area. Thought that was a pretty good start but then Askia showed up with his UU's and I was all done again.

I think that's too long to wait for a worker - especially in this game. You won't need the land the monument's culture gives you before the worker's done improving something in your inner tiles.

Your policy mix is good, but you could try a straight Tradition opener if you want to play conservatively and achieve the sort of Science victory you mentioned.

In retrospect it sounds as if the Mandekalu Cavalry was a bigger problem than everything else. When facing a likely enemy like this, a defense pact with the Ottomans or Egypt can also help. It's not likely to backfire because they're not likely to drag you into a war with anyone else in the midterm.

Diplomacy aside, though, you should be able to hold them off with a mix of drill-promoted muskets/longswords backed by crossbows and a medic. The range units are key to softening them up.

Wow....I guess it's a bit of a relief to see I wasn't the only person who didn't find the start to be a doddle.

I think I made the same problem of pushing my early cities too hard on production focus and crippling my population development. Strategically attacking Suleman early I think makes the most sense given he is geographically isolated- it means no counter attacks from neighboring civs when your focus shifts later on.

All that open jungle/river space cries out to be settled, but if you push too hard to expand into it there are no extra luxuries to balance out the unhappiness. I am only now populating the eastern end of the jungle river in the 1750s- and now with a horde of spare workers and the cash to buy culture and food buildings the cities are growing so fast that there was little penalty in waiting a long time. I had forgotten how well VEM balances out late cities. I am also putting settlers out to island cities on new luxuries (and also to be in position to attack Siam later if they get close to a science victory).

Jungle/marsh starts are very demanding on workers, so I think the pyramids and faster worker policy in Liberty are essential as well (moreso than anything about golden ages- Persia already has GA points to burn there).

All that open jungle/river space cries out to be settled, but if you push too hard to expand into it there are no extra luxuries to balance out the unhappiness.

I chose to settle on the silks and then trade them away for other luxuries and concentrate worker time on roads and trading posts on the jungles. I did end up expanding too fast and dipped into some happiness problems, but once I fixed that problem the extra gold and science sure paid off.

I agree - it sounds like you tried to REX too fast, which would be difficult on this map due to the lack of unique luxuries plus the rough terrain making it slow to improve your cities. I would suggest fewer cities to start, but having at least one to the east in the tangle of jungle and rivers is a good plan as a buffer against Askia. A city over there is virtually impregnable by cavs with that terrain. The key for defense would be to have a few crossbows plus your Immortal pikes (or some of the defensive units like levys fortified on rough terrain to guard your ranged units). I have found the the AI doesn't really use cavs very well, particularly on rough terrain. Certainly not as effectively as human players. Askia DoWed me fairly early but could never get close to my eastern city with 4 crossbows guarding it (all gifted to me from militaristic CS and promoted to rough terrain). But in my case Askia was also at war with Egypt and getting the worst of it, so he was never much of a threat.

Funnily enough on my replay Askia didn't DOW me at all. I think it was either from having Hanoi as a long term ally right on his doorstep, or attacking Suleman quite early and making him realise I was a force to be reckoned with.

Does the AI take into account the number of enemy CS allies near it before DOWing?

I find it funny that no one else found Askia to be a problem in this game. I have now played 4 times and have started a 5th and he basically declares war on me very early, (turn 60 in this past game), then never ever gives me agreeable terms no matter how much I crush his troops early on. Don't know how he can afford to send 5 troops at a time to the other side of the map and still compete. I am planning on building many crossbows once the Medevil era hits this time around to deal with his UU's.
-----------------

So 5th game. I decide to follow Txurce's advice and go straight for the National College. Founded my Capitol city in place then Bee Lined for NC. Managed to get the Great Library on the way. I checked Info Addict and it seems I had an early production lead, and since I was hitting the next era at the same time as most of the others I figured I had a 1 or 2 turn advatage on that wonder.

After I finished the GL I founded another city next to the Incencse on the Western coast. That set me back about 10 turns on the NC until I got the second Library in place but managed to get that in as well.
----------------
Advice Please:

So now it seems as if I have a good start. Askia is Bee-lining to the Medievil era to get his UU's and has all ready declared war on me as usual. Sulemain is expanding to the east coast, Monty has taken a couple of eqypts city's. (His best start so far).

I just founded my 3rd city just east of my capitol. Dublin and Stockholm are just barely hanging on as Ally's even though I am spending all of my gold on that.

The question is, once you get the good NC start, where do you go from here?

I was in first or second place points wise right until I finished the NC and Askia declared on me. Since then I have started building defensive units and have dropped severly to second to last place again. I currently have 4 workers, 2 out of three cities connected, All of the luxuries camps and Quarries set up. I have a bowman, swordsman, Immortal, Charriot. earning about 25 gpt. Spending all of that on Dublin and Stockholm. Have no RA's (can't afford). Open borders with just about everyone. Selling all of my Luxuries as soon as they come available.

I find it funny that no one else found Askia to be a problem in this game. I have now played 4 times and have started a 5th and he basically declares war on me very early, (turn 60 in this past game), then never ever gives me agreeable terms no matter how much I crush his troops early on. Don't know how he can afford to send 5 troops at a time to the other side of the map and still compete. I am planning on building many crossbows once the Medevil era hits this time around to deal with his UU's.

Some of this is a matter of perspective. I was more or less in the same position with Askia in both games I played. But I didn't view it as a problem - more as an easy way to promote my units, as long as I didn't get too greedy. It gets trickier once he has his UU, but 2 or 3 well-positioned crossbows by your eastern city should stop him. (The blitz promotion for crossbows is probably my favorite.)

Also keep in mind that he's more likely to seek peace once he's at war with someone else (which will happen), if you have a decent-sized army. With a couple more unit builds and the Dublin contribution, you should get there.

So now it seems as if I have a good start. Askia is Bee-lining to the Medievil era to get his UU's and has all ready declared war on me as usual. Sulemain is expanding to the east coast, Monty has taken a couple of eqypts city's. (His best start so far).

I just founded my 3rd city just east of my capitol. Dublin and Stockholm are just barely hanging on as Ally's even though I am spending all of my gold on that.

The question is, once you get the good NC start, where do you go from here?

I was in first or second place points wise right until I finished the NC and Askia declared on me. Since then I have started building defensive units and have dropped severly to second to last place again. I currently have 4 workers, 2 out of three cities connected, All of the luxuries camps and Quarries set up. I have a bowman, swordsman, Immortal, Charriot. earning about 25 gpt. Spending all of that on Dublin and Stockholm. Have no RA's (can't afford). Open borders with just about everyone. Selling all of my Luxuries as soon as they come available.

The 4 workers and your army mix are great. You may want to build another Immortal or two, although Dublin tends to give these units (and levies). If you don't intend to take any cities, skip siege units until much later, if at all.

In terms of beelining, in an ideal world I'd aim for the PT (via the HS or not), then also CI and TM, before moving on to Scientific Theory and Biology. The tricky part here is whether you can afford to tech Education before moving to the lower half of the tree. Astronomy isn't as important, given that you aren't planning on expanding, and can already sell your luxuries to the high number of civs on your continent. You'll meet the other civs in plenty of time anyway, thanks to your coastal city.

Raising your population is key to more gold, especially once you start building Villages. Once your happiness can handle it, I'd consider a fourth city south of the capital, to take advantage of the two cattle and hills, as well as snagging that silk (if you don't have it already). And of course build Satrap's Courts for the GA gold, then banks to augment along with aqueducts and, eventually, universities.

Your eastern city is also a good launch point for quests. With a little luck you'll gain a free alliance.

I would not be the least concerned about score, since that is heavily biased toward wide empires. If you build some wonders your score will improve, but will eventually be far surpassed by the heavily REXing AI. All that really matters is your tech position. By the end of my game I was near the bottom in score, but I was 5 techs above the score leader (Siam) and more than 10 techs ahead of the rest of the pack. I was in Modern Era long before some civs even made it to Industrial.

My advice would be to improve several mine and river farm tiles in each of your cities if you haven't already, then focus on improving river jungle tiles first with villages (science and gold). Beeline Education and build universities ASAP, then build your Satrap's Courts, banks, etc. When you have enough production in each city to build things in a reasonable time frame, start to focus on population growth. Don't neglect structures like walls, etc. since they give you free food and help you defend. Build granaries, aqueducts, hospitals, etc. And don't neglect culture buildings either. I found that the combination of Tradition, Piety, Enlightenment and Freedom was fantastic for a tall, science and culture-focused empire.

Thanks for the advice. I will give it a go this afternoon and see what happens.

Txurce is telling me to go Saatraps, Banks Aquaducts then Universities, RedRover57 is saying Beeline to Universities.

Well we'll see what happens I guess.

Thanks for the advice. I will give it a go this afternoon and see what happens.

Txurce is telling me to go Saatraps, Banks Aquaducts then Universities, RedRover57 is saying Beeline to Universities.

Well we'll see what happens I guess.

Aqueducts are researched well before any of those. I presumed you would build at least one Court to launch your big GA before you research Education (and others as and if needed to keep it going). I always build universities before banks - but if your queue hasn't hit universities yet, you need the gold, and have researched Banking, you may want to build a bank first. Given the GA's multiplier effect, this makes more sense for Persia than it does for other civs.

I find it funny that no one else found Askia to be a problem in this game. I have now played 4 times and have started a 5th and he basically declares war on me very early, (turn 60 in this past game), then never ever gives me agreeable terms no matter how much I crush his troops early on. Don't know how he can afford to send 5 troops at a time to the other side of the map and still compete. I am planning on building many crossbows once the Medevil era hits this time around to deal with his UU's.
-----------------


In my game he declared war on me early too, but he was willing to make a draw.

As late as the arrival of Korea, I was winning some science victories with Korea, Babylon and even the Aztecs in under 250 turns. At that point I began playing more for domination, and when I've tried science again since, have experimentally steered away from my standard Tradition/NC-first approach. As I mentioned, I'm doing much worse. It could be the change in approach, and I'll play a game with Babylon in the next couple of weeks to test it definitively. I don't know if anything in the game other than the RA mechanic has changed since - maybe less specialist slots?

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

I've also noticed that science wins take much longer in VEM, presumably because RAs are significantly weaker. I also assumed I was just doing something wrong because I can almost never get a science win before getting culture or diplo by default.

I actually can't remember much about my start because it's been close to a week ago and I didn't write it up at the time.

A few highlights:
I think I started scout, scout, worker, and policies liberty+free settler, then into tradition for happiness and wonder production. I didn't build any settlers until after the liberty settler policy. For some reason I seemed to have a lot of happiness problems the entire first half of the game or so.

I can't remember my tech order, but my first settled city (Apparently unlike everyone else) was NW on the coast on top of the incense. I only built two more settlers, which were both east on the river. I did manage to get Stonehenge to expand out my borders early (so slow with all the rough terrain normally), but I think the GL would have been better if I could have snagged it.

Askia declared on me relatively early even with no apparent cause, but a couple archers with my scouts dispatched everything he could send at me.

I actually can't remember much about my start because it's been close to a week ago and I didn't write it up at the time.

A few highlights:
I think I started scout, scout, worker, and policies liberty+free settler, then into tradition for happiness and wonder production. I didn't build any settlers until after the liberty settler policy. For some reason I seemed to have a lot of happiness problems the entire first half of the game or so.

I can't remember my tech order, but my first settled city (Apparently unlike everyone else) was NW on the coast on top of the incense. I only built two more settlers, which were both east on the river. I did manage to get Stonehenge to expand out my borders early (so slow with all the rough terrain normally), but I think the GL would have been better if I could have snagged it.

Askia declared on me relatively early even with no apparent cause, but a couple archers with my scouts dispatched everything he could send at me.

For good early Happiness, you could try the Liberty policy that gives 1 happiness per trade route and -5% unhappiness per citizen combined with the Honor policy that gives happiness per garrison.

For good early Happiness, you could try the Liberty policy that gives 1 happiness per trade route and -5% unhappiness per citizen combined with the Honor policy that gives happiness per garrison.

The Liberty happiness policy is weak early on. I would rather go into Piety as soon as its available for a quick 3 happy and then grab the monument, temple, monastery (which are buildable in all cities) happy policy if its still a problem.

The Liberty happiness policy is weak early on. I would rather go into Piety as soon as its available for a quick 3 happy and then grab the monument, temple, monastery (which are buildable in all cities) happy policy if its still a problem.

I forgot about Piety, but I was talking about "early early". ;)

Also, Tradition gives +1 happiness per wonder or was it +2? Useful too, since almost everyone goes for atleast Stonehenge. Building first Pyramids, then Stonehenge and Great Library assures a good early game, atleast it did for me in this GoTM.

I forgot about Piety, but I was talking about "early early". ;)

Also, Tradition gives +1 happiness per wonder or was it +2? Useful too, since almost everyone goes for atleast Stonehenge. Building first Pyramids, then Stonehenge and Great Library assures a good early game, atleast it did for me in this GoTM.

I had the +1 happy/wonder policy and the piety opener and still had to slow my growth (which probably hurt my science). I wonder if I should have gone for theaters sooner.