View Full Version : Rocket Artiller vs Gun Srtillery?
Nov 06, 2011, 02:11 AM
I don't know a great deal about modern warfare so I would like some advice about the difference between rocket and regular artillery.
a) What are the real life differences; especially in relation to how they are used.
b) How can they be differentiated in game.
c) Is the progression of gun artillery to rocket artillery realistic given that many countries are still producing new gun artillery.
d) What settings do you use in your own games?
EDIT: Oviously the title of the thread should read: Rocket Artiller vs Gun Artillery?
Nov 06, 2011, 04:15 AM
I suppose a way to differentiate would be to have on with a high ROF and medium damage and the other with a higher damage but lower ROF. Rockets could have higher range too? Gun artillery should be much cheaper too.
Nov 06, 2011, 04:48 AM
I suppose a way to differentiate would be to have on with a high ROF and medium damage and the other with a higher damage but lower ROF. Rockets could have higher range too? Gun artillery should be much cheaper too
Rocket artillery is used for area indirect fire. It is used for saturation fire. artillery gun can be used for either direct or indirect fire and are generally more accurate. This would also include anti aircraft weapons. One of the most accurate and deadly artillery pieces during WW II was the German 88mm AAA. It was designed as an AA gun but was used with devastating effect as an anti tank weapon and as direct fire weapon against infantry masses as well as fortifications.
Nov 06, 2011, 06:40 AM
Hey Nick, multiple rockets can be more inaccurate, but like the Guardian said, can saturate their targets. They have similar ranges to gun tube artillery. Guns can be very accurate with good gunners, a radio, and some math. Guns are still the primary means of fire support. One advantage of rockets is their salvos can go out quickly, and much of artillery's deadliness is in the first few moments before everyone jumps for cover.
As for Civ3, I'm using Quinzy's method in one game: high ROF and lower bombard for multi-rockets, and lower ROF anf higher damage for artillery. The base Civ3 way of artillery upgrading to MLRS in the modern era isn't 100% accurate, but it works for what Firaxis was shooting for.
If you want both, you might consider having long range rockets-think Scuds in the Gulf War. These are very long range, inaccurate, and good against airfields, command centers, and other things that aren't moving. If you check the cruise missile flag, they'll work just like cruise missiles in the game: destroyed after using and target aircraft first. If you keep them with artillery settings, they will attack ground units first. This can be nice because with enough range, the dimwit AI will actually use these things from the cities where they hide their artillery.
Nov 08, 2011, 01:12 AM
A while back I wanted to represent the modern use of cruise missiles on ships so I increased their bombard range to that similar as cruise missiles in the game. Added them to subs, too. This was in addition to their normal attack and their ability to carry other items like nukes, aircraft and land units. The same missile representation can be done with land units, either straight artillery units or perhaps with other AI flags set also. I have not tried the latter, but the former, others have gotten the AI to use land artillery with blitz, a higher move factor and a higher bombard range.
Rockets tend to carry larger warheads than shells so their bang on arrival is much larger. As others pointed out, these are area saturation weapons, but not very accurate against individual targets. Their effect is usually greater, when used in quantity, that regular artillery, since a lot more can arrive at the target at one time. Their downside is long reload time. Shot off all at once, or in a few salvos, rockets are quickly gone and it then takes a while to load up the launchers again. Regular artillery can keep up a more steady bombardment. Another difference is artillery rockets use HE blast, rather than velocity more than regular gun artillery, so a well protected fortification, or ship, can resist rocket fire better than it can gunfire. Ballistic missiles and high speed cruise missiles can mimic this aspect of gunfire, with their higher velocities, but the usual artillery saturation rockets are smaller and arrive at the target with lower velocities.
In game mods, I tried representing this difference by giving rocket artillery a higher bombard factor than regular artillery, but a lower rate of fire number. I also adjusted the hit points of units according to the unit's resistance to this difference in attack types. More hit points to represent more armor and better resistance to HE. This gives the rockets a larger chance of inflicting damage, but with less chance of each individual shot killing a unit with higher HPs set (If the unit's HPs are greater than the attack ROF, an attack can not kill it. So if I want a unit to be immune from destruction from the attack of another in one on one combat, I give the unit more HP than the ROF of the attack of the other.). With lethal artillery set and the use of multiple units firing at the same target, this is very powerful, and can represent saturation attacks, and destroy units that would be resistant to the attack of a single unit.
With gun artillery given a lower bombard factor, but higher ROF, the individual artillery attack has more "staying power" to cause deeper damage to the unit (shave off more HPs), but less likelihood of hitting in each micro round of the combat resolution, so that while a hit is harder to obtain, the damage can be worse and the unit can possibly die from a single encounter.
I also used this idea to differentiate between attack bombers and strategic bombers. To do this, I also adjusted the amount of damage needed to destroy buildings and lower pop in cities to work with this. By giving strategic bombers a high bombard, but lower ROF, they are less likely to destroy units (and unable without lethal set), but more likely to knock out buildings and lower pop in citiy attacks (since buildings and pop do not have HPs). Tactical bombers are given a lower bombard, but higher ROF. They can destroy units easier, but their lower bombard in relation to buildings and pop, makes them less likely to hurt cities.
Hope this makes sense. It's easier to set in the editor than describe on a forum.
Edit: I've tested this stuff using the Combat Calculator and by putting units against one another in test scenarios, but I have never tried it in a full game.
Nov 08, 2011, 07:23 AM
Thanks guys for taking the time to give well thoughout answer. I certainly understand the differences between rocket and gun artillery better now.
It's funny that there seem to be too totally opposite veiws regarding bombard and ROF levels for the two types of artillery in game.
scratchthepitch, before your post I was going to go with the method Quinzy first mentioned but what you said actually makes a lot of sense. I think I might try out your method.
Nov 09, 2011, 06:39 AM
Artillery has always been a hitch in Civ3. Very nice thread that I hope will evolve.
Consider modern day variants as mentioned.
1)Rocket Artillery MLRS as the M270 (perhaps add coll. damage, part from higher ROF)
2)Long range Artillery as 155mm HOW as the M777
3)Self-Prop artillery, British AS-90 (perhaps these should have a small defensive value to make their difference)
4)Then the issue of having Lt artillery units 105mm HOW (M119), perhaps cheap to built, perhaps airdrop or not wheeled (can then be moved by helicopter).
5)Adding to this could be Mortar units with just 1 square range and very mobile. However very very few units in the DB has been made. I think a few WW2 Mortar units, but thatīs it.
The values to play with is of course
airdrop or just wheeled or not
perhaps even charm
I hope all you great modders can really put your minds to this.
Nov 09, 2011, 06:55 AM
I think I might try out your method.
If you do, could you provide an update on how it worked out? If you have the time. Any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Nov 09, 2011, 09:37 AM
Sure , but it won't be for a while as I'm just in the initial stages of unit planning and it will be a while before I impliment all the units in the epic mod I'm working on and start testing. But I'm trying to work out stats as I go and which units to include which is why I started this thread.