Hey guys, love the progress I see here. I grabbed Koshling's source from your SVN, and did a quick diff. Wow, lots has changed/improved since my abscence.

As tempted as I am to simply do a full copy->paste of Koshling's many many improvements, I want to know, is there anything I should avoid merging? I know I have to update my python files too (ugh).

You guys have some additional gameoptions and ai's. If I just disable/hide those, there shouldn't be any problems, right?

Ciao.

All hail the king :bowdown:

All hail the king :bowdown:

I believe the DLL (compiled without the C2C switch) **should** operate fine with the AND assets, but they have diverged a fair bit now, so a period of testing would be the main need I think. You'll also need some dummy XML files (ones with no actual assets, just the relevant outer tags) for the new concepts (that AND won't use). These are the spawn system for the animals (though you might want to convert to it), AIAndy's outcome system, and the generic properties system (used for flamability and crime currently in C2C). That should all be fairly self evident from compalints that (at least a DEBUG build) will make when you try to start up with them missing from your assets (if you just view the C2C files it'll be obvious what you need)

The cultural age stuff I started at some point but put on hold after adding the XML file for it will need a dummy file as well (or deactivation of the code that loads it).

I also moved the wonder limits to the cultural level info so depending on the level of the city it can build more or less wonders. You will need to either not merge that change in or add that to your cultural level info XML and also add the Python change for the display of the wonder limit (the limits are exposed to Python directly now).

The resource limit fix in the code requires a small change in the gamefont file.

Some new features require to change Python code (e.g. building/unit sorting/filtering) but will not cause any problems if not used.

I believe the DLL (compiled without the C2C switch) **should** operate fine with the AND assets, but they have diverged a fair bit now, so a period of testing would be the main need I think. You'll also need some dummy XML files (ones with no actual assets, just the relevant outer tags) for the new concepts (that AND won't use). These are the spawn system for the animals (though you might want to convert to it), AIAndy's outcome system, and the generic properties system (used for flamability and crime currently in C2C). That should all be fairly self evident from compalints that (at least a DEBUG build) will make when you try to start up with them missing from your assets (if you just view the C2C files it'll be obvious what you need)

Okay, that's what I was hoping. :)

Dear Afforess,

Thank you for everything you did with RAND. I loved all of it.
I invested hundreds of hours in what you personally added to the game.
I never played any game in my life as much.

Speaking for a few people here, (if I might):

Would you please, please consider working with these guys here towards a united Community experience?

Both RAND and C2C would benefit highly from your combined collaboration.
I would love to see this dream team work together, even if just for a while.
If nothing else would you consider adding your two cents to C2C as well as completing RAND?
I love the progress that the C2C team has made and am excited to see what else they will dream up.
We are all stronger together.

On a similar note.

It would be amazing if the modders of different mods could be approached to contribute towards the momentum of a single community mod. (I vote C2C at the moment)

Maybe some of those who are still working on REVDCM like Glider and Zappara from ROM could be contacted to toss in a few opinions. Even if they have moved on, they might have a occasional urge to contribute or comment. It would be nice if DALE or JDOG could be contacted as well. Even if they disagree on some points, something exciting can be potentially be agreed upon. It would be interesting to see such a Dream Team to come together for a moment, for the love of CIV IV modding. I would love for this momentum to grow and see where it could go.

Maybe it is just a dream, but imagine what could happen if people could find some way to work together again and take it to the next level. It could be fun and exciting.
Anyone else feel the same?

I never thought I would see the day when Afforess would come to us and ask for help. Always thought they viewed C2C a more of the bastard child of RoM and AND that no one wants to talk about. Then again it was C2C that broke the "resource limit" barrier.

@rightfuture
There is a long history with RoM, AND and C2C. Many of the modders of C2C were moders who posted mod mods for AND. And of course much of RoM is in AND and in turn AND is in C2C. In fact Afforess was the one who taught me how to mod. Since I would bother him to death to make my modding requested. I even got some of my own stuff into AND at one point. However with little warning he kicked my stuff out and went a completely different direction.

I tried to make my add-on called HAND (Hydro's A New Dawn) which has many of the buildings and civics are now included in C2C. I became inactive for a few months and came back to find strategyonly working on Prehistoirc NWA and collaborating with Dancing Hoskuld on his Subdued Animal mod.

I asked if i could join and have some freedom to do the stuff I wanted with AND and the prehistoric ideas I had from before as well as the galactic era stuff. He said sure and the rest is history. In fact I was going to call the mod Cavmen to Cosmos but strategyonly thought Caveman sounded better (I think he made a good call).

At any rate my point is C2C was made to be the mod where "more was more" rather than "less is more" which had been Afforess' philosophy when starting RAND (which is different than AND). While I love new team members, I am not as comfortable with Afforess since I do not want C2C to go the way of RAND.

In short I hope Afforess the best in completing RAND but C2C is its own mod now.

All hail the king :bowdown:


He can travel trough "wormholes"! :D I'm playing on his marvelous plugin. Its called Spoutcraft.

(I hope its not advertisement, as it's his toy)

Dear Afforess,

Thank you for everything you did with RAND. I loved all of it.
I invested hundreds of hours in what you personally added to the game.
I never played any game in my life as much.

Speaking for a few people here, (if I might):

Would you please, please consider working with these guys here towards a united Community experience?

Both RAND and C2C would benefit highly from your combined collaboration.
I would love to see this dream team work together, even if just for a while.
If nothing else would you consider adding your two cents to C2C as well as completing RAND?
I love the progress that the C2C team has made and am excited to see what else they will dream up.
We are all stronger together.

Civilization was never meant as a modular platform, it isn't easy to write mods that simply plug-n-play with each other. The closest I ever came were gameoptions that allowed users to turn on and off different building sets.

On a similar note.

It would be amazing if the modders of different mods could be approached to contribute towards the momentum of a single community mod. (I vote C2C at the moment)

Maybe some of those who are still working on REVDCM like Glider and Zappara from ROM could be contacted to toss in a few opinions. Even if they have moved on, they might have a occasional urge to contribute or comment. It would be nice if DALE or JDOG could be contacted as well. Even if they disagree on some points, something exciting can be potentially be agreed upon. It would be interesting to see such a Dream Team to come together for a moment, for the love of CIV IV modding. I would love for this momentum to grow and see where it could go.

Maybe it is just a dream, but imagine what could happen if people could find some way to work together again and take it to the next level. It could be fun and exciting.
Anyone else feel the same?

Zappara is gone, and I am pretty sure most Civ4 mods are *completed*, and mature. I doubt I would get much response. Anyway, see the above comment about plug-n-play issues anyway.

I never thought I would see the day when Afforess would come to us and ask for help. Always thought they viewed C2C a more of the bastard child of RoM and AND that no one wants to talk about. Then again it was C2C that broke the "resource limit" barrier.

Hehe.


At any rate my point is C2C was made to be the mod where "more was more" rather than "less is more" which had been Afforess' philosophy when starting RAND (which is different than AND). While I love new team members, I am not as comfortable with Afforess since I do not want C2C to go the way of RAND.

In short I hope Afforess the best in completing RAND but C2C is its own mod now.

Too true. You guys have kept Civ4 alive long past it's lifespan, and should be commended.

Thanks Afforess. And thanks again for teaching me how to mod. Your tutorial has been very useful to the Civ4 modding community.

Well, look who's back. :king::D

I remember back when I was a lurker here avidly following the early progress of AND and have to say that Afforess single-handedly kept up enthusiasm for CIV 4 and the ROM community for a year at least.

I do agree with rightfuture that it would be nice if you pitched in your 2 cents on C2C. We could all use the advice of a master modder, even if you are too busy on RAND to actually mod C2C.

Welcome back.

Visionary Afforess,

I do hope you and Hydromancerx can find some common vision to keep moving the community forward a little. We all want a bright future for Civ IV.
Imagine what we could accomplish together if we just found a way. Both RAND and C2C could use a little shared love.

"Alone, we can do so little, together we can do so much."
-Helen Keller

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
-Margaret Mead
US anthropologist & popularizer of anthropology (1901 - 1978)

Can't we all just dream together for a moment? Who knows where that could take us? :)

@rightfuture

I am not sure what you are wanting. C2C has tons of stuff that was in AND. If anything RAND took out stuff from AND. So in a sense C2C has RAND stuff in it already. Thus Afforess has indirectly helped with C2C already. The nature of C2C is to use cool stuff from other mods and then add more. Note that RoM and AND did some of that as well such as adding revolutions, many of Vincent's mods and BUG. C2C is just the newest version of a long line of great mods. Each with great modders who spend their own time and energy to make their own great mod. If that's not coming together I don't know what is.

EDIT: I would also like to say that diversity is good for the community. If everyone was working on the same mod then there would be no choices or diversity in the community. That's not to say mods cannot use things from other mods, far from it. Each mod is like its own little experiment. IF one fails there are a bunch more the pick up where they failed. And every failure leads to learning something new.

There is defiantly enough room on this forum for both C2C and RAND to exist. If you like a well polished and very balanced game then play RAND. Its an awesome game with tons of hours of testing and many players. If you want a highly experimental game that adds new features every update but lacks that polish and balance that RAND has then pick C2C. its not to say that C2C will never become nice a polished, but we are far too busy making new stuff to worry about that, because even if we did it would not be balanced for any new stuff down the road.

In short C2C is by far my favorite mod of any game. Not just because I helped make it but because of the stuff others have made or requested over the months. So thanks to everyone who has been involved with civ4 modding, C2C could not have been made without you. :D

In short C2C is by far my favorite mod of any game. Not just because I helped make it but because of the stuff others have made or requested over the months. So thanks to everyone who has been involved with civ4 modding, C2C could not have been made without you. :D

Now that sentence alone deserves a BIG applause to everyone :clap:

And with that sentence i could not have said it any better :thanx::agree:

:cry:

i agree with hydro. i remember the time where hydro bring cool new stuff for RAND and afforess dosent want this. No problem now.

both have her good things, RAND and C2C.

i like this gigantic thing that C2C is and will be.:)

I haven't played any RoM based mod in a year or so. I'm curious to what these DLL improvements are.

I haven't played any RoM based mod in a year or so. I'm curious to what these DLL improvements are.

Um, where to start? Here are a few highlights (in the DLL specifically, though obviously that's only part of the story of C2C as a whole):


HUGE performance increase, especially at scale
Various AI improvements
Various new capabilities added that allow things to be expressed in XML rather than requiring (slow) Python (spawn system, city attribute system, outcome system)
Significant reduction in memory footprint (for given asset set)
New save format that allows loading across asset updates (i.e. - from version to version)
Resource limit fixed (unlimitted resource types can now be defined and used)
...

Um, where to start? Here are a few highlights (in the DLL specifically, though obviously that's only part of the story of C2C as a whole):


HUGE performance increase, especially at scale
Various AI improvements
Various new capabilities added that allow things to be expressed in XML rather than requiring (slow) Python (spawn system, city attribute system, outcome system)
Significant reduction in memory footprint (for given asset set)
New save format that allows loading across asset updates (i.e. - from version to version)
Resource limit fixed (unlimitted resource types can now be defined and used)
...
How is the turn time length now? Lots of nice changes I see.:D

How is the turn time length now? Lots of nice changes I see.:D

I don't get to read between turns any more. ;) Not enough time to get a cup of coffee either. I have not played past modern.

How is the turn time length now? Lots of nice changes I see.:D

Well, that's kind of an unanswerable question without knowing things about the computer, the map size, the number of AI civs, the era, ...

At scale (larger maps, later in the game) you should see turn times a fraction of what they used to be (literally order of magnitude less). At game start, when there are few units you won't notice much difference, but it gets progressively more significant as the game advances.

I don't get to read between turns any more. ;) Not enough time to get a cup of coffee either. I have not played past modern.

What? I can't get up, go to the loo, crack my knuckles, and be just in time for the turn!

:lol:

Seriously, nice work Koshling. I'm sure you noticed, but Civ4 was my first experience with programming. Coming back, I know a hell of a lot more, and stare at my code in a few places going...what? Who was the idiot who wrote that...;)

To awnser the turn time questions; it's playable. I adored the heck out of RoM, but the turn times were just brutalizing my system.

Also, as a secondary comment: the C2C team has done something purely amazing that I just discovered today; its made multiplayer games playable.

Also, Afforess! Good to see you. I think I'll be interested to play both the zaniness that is C2C and a version of RAND with the fixes of C2C backported, so I'm excited.

Thanks for the help guys, I got it merged okay.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11204889

Since the merge a player has already posted a Minidump for Rand in the Beta Test thread iirc.

@Afforess,
Can you decipher the minidumps? Or will you need help?

JosEPh

Thanks AIAndy for your reply. So I take it the PDB is part of every SVN build?

JosEPh

Thanks AIAndy for your reply. So I take it the PDB is part of every SVN build?

JosEPh

Every build of the DLL yes. The SVN contains an archive of all DLL/PDB pairs so if you know what buiod of the DLL was used you can find the matching PDB from the SVN. It's one level higher in the SVN (well a branch off from one level higher) then most people access though, so as not to burden most SVN users with the extra download on each update (the DLL is 7M, the PDB is over 50M)

Well Afforess is asking for savegames instead of the minidumps. So I guess I got my answer to that too.

Thanks for the info Koshling. :)

JosEPh

Well Afforess is asking for savegames instead of the minidumps. So I guess I got my answer to that too.

Thanks for the info Koshling. :)

JosEPh

If a bug is reliably reproducible save games are generally the best possible information. If it's not reproducible the minidump is sometimes enough to pin things down.

Well Afforess is asking for savegames instead of the minidumps. So I guess I got my answer to that too.

Thanks for the info Koshling. :)

JosEPh

I couldn't get a way to get Express Edition of 08 to read them, and my Pro version of '10 is not set up to compile the SDK.

I couldn't get a way to get Express Edition of 08 to read them, and my Pro version of '10 is not set up to compile the SDK.
I only have the Express Edition of 08 installed and it reads the dumps (I heard the Express version of '10 does not).

Bump - Let's keep it flowing both ways. C2C and AND are brothers, Afforess and the C2C ModTeam worked together to make the most of both. Now that AND (temporarily resurrected) is going to integrate C2C and K-Mod AI features for the purpose of finishing a single last complete version, and since C2C aspires to more, then lets bridge it and work together to keep C2C the best it can be!

Good time to think about K-Mod AI integration, together, and integrating the other ideas being ported into AND. Less work for all.