I'm back from my Civ hiatus! :) I got sick of peaceful games like SC4 and RTS games like AoM, and the beauty of Civ has called me back. ;) Since I haven't played in a while, I don't want to make this a variant or anything, and not a very high difficulty level. So...

Civ: Greeks. I wanted to do a peaceful Civ.

Victory Conditions: All conditions on, but only Conquest will be accepted.

Map: Large map, Continents.

Opponents: Random.

Level: Monarch. Hey, its my first game in a while! :p

Rules: The usual exploits are forbidden. The only variant rule (and its not even that odd) in place is that we cannot be at war with more than one civ at a time. MPPs are allowed, but if we get drawn into a war (our ally is attacked) we cannot attack offensively. If another Civ attacks you, you are only allowed to defend your own territory or to recapture cities you lost in that war. So, in short, the only offensive attacks you can make are on civilizations you attacked. We can bombard (artillery, planes, etc) enemy territory and enemy cities that attacked us (they made the declaration of war) but we cannot capture. If we attack the civ, we can bombard, capture, raze, nuke, anything.

Version: PTW, 1.14f. Hope that clears it up. ;)

Roster: Me--->Playing Now
Cromagnon--->On Deck
Swiftsure
Sultan
Aggie

(Licker will get the 6th spot if he ever changes his mind)

I should have a pic of the map up soon, as well as the save.

Well, here is the starting position. At least we have a river. Why couldn't the RNG give me a wonderful start on my first game back? Oh well. At least we can pump out Settlers...right? ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4.jpg

And here is the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4_4000BC.sav

I'll play 40 turns later today, and then we'll do 20 from there.

Sorry, haven't done this in a while. ;) Here is the usual link to the save:

Just a quick question...

How can you control how many civs you are at war with? If you have multiples declare on you, or pull in additional civs on you what can you do?

The no MMPs I understand, but only one war at a time seems beyond your control. Now if it means only declaring on Civ at a time I can follow that, but you're still gonna wind up (probably) having more than one war against you at a time.

Originally posted by licker
Just a quick question...

How can you control how many civs you are at war with? If you have multiples declare on you, or pull in additional civs on you what can you do?

The no MMPs I understand, but only one war at a time seems beyond your control. Now if it means only declaring on Civ at a time I can follow that, but you're still gonna wind up (probably) having more than one war against you at a time.

You're right. An oversight by me. So, how about this - if another Civ declares war on you, you must not make any offensive attack in their territory. You can only defend your own territory or attack cities that you lost during that war. So, you can only conquer cities when you declare war.

Oh, and licker - are you in? :)

Hey, CGannon, I haven't yet played a SG, but I'm a Monarch player, and would be interested in your game.

Just to clarify this rule:If another Civ attacks you, you are only allowed to defend your own territory or to recapture cities you lost in that war. So, in short, the only offensive attacks you can make are on civilizations you attacked.
I assume you mean "if another Civ attacks you while you are at war with someone else,, you are only allowed..."

Edit: Is this PTW?

Originally posted by cromagnon
Hey, CGannon, I haven't yet played a SG, but I'm a Monarch player, and would be interested in your game.

Just to clarify this rule:
I assume you mean "if another Civ attacks you while you are at war with someone else,, you are only allowed..."

Edit: Is this PTW?

Nope, even if you are at war with no one, and someone attacks you, you can only regain lost cities in that war and defend against their attacks. Only wars WE initiate can be profitable in terms of gained territory.

And yes, its PTW, its in the title. ;) Hope that's not a problem.

Now that I think of it, this is drifting more towards heavy variant than one minor rule...;) :lol:

Just added a little note about bombarding in the rules, as that will probably come up eventually. I'll play my 40 if licker or cromagnon say they will play...

:wallbash: on the PTW thing. D'OH! PTW is definitely not a problem. :D

So the only way to win (as conquest is the one of our choosing) is to declare war on a civ, and proceed to wipe them out, then switch to the next civ, etc.

I assume alliances are allowed, and that we don't have to be the one who wipes out the civ? And no particular rules on declaring war 'with honor,' or anything like that?

ps. If you want someone with more SG or Monarch experience, I don't mind being bumped off, but I'm up for a game.

Glad to see you back CG, i'm in

Originally posted by cromagnon
I assume alliances are allowed, and that we don't have to be the one who wipes out the civ? And no particular rules on declaring war 'with honor,' or anything like that?


Yes. In fact, MPPs will be allowed, but they wouldn't be smart to use - if we get drawn into a war, we can't fight! :crazyeye:

Alright. I'll play 40 turns later today. Cromagnon, you're on deck until licker responds.

Glad to see you back CG, i'm in

One can't ignore Civ3 for TOO long. ;)

Well I'd love to play a SG at some point, but my schedule for the next month has week long gaps in it that preclude any gaming of any type (well I guess craps and black jack count).

I don't think I can reasonably say I'm in for this one, although it does sound interesting. And the war conditions you are setting up are typically how I play my SP games anyway so it'd be a good fit for me I guess.

Oh well, next time, and good luck with it :)

Originally posted by licker
Well I'd love to play a SG at some point, but my schedule for the next month has week long gaps in it that preclude any gaming of any type (well I guess craps and black jack count).

I don't think I can reasonably say I'm in for this one, although it does sound interesting. And the war conditions you are setting up are typically how I play my SP games anyway so it'd be a good fit for me I guess.

Oh well, next time, and good luck with it :)

Sure you don't want me to put you on the bench? It might not be over by then...

Anyway, I'm off to play right now. :)

Alright, here are my 40. I wasn't really happy with them, as the RNG screwed me over with two consecutive diseases, but its alright. The report:

(1) Athens founded on river, worker goes of to irrigate (obviously). Warrior started to scout. Pottery researched, bumped up to 100% at 18 turns.

(2-7) Nothing. Worker finishes irrigating and roading tile.

(8) Contact with the Americans! We trade Bronze Working and Alphabet for Masonry, Cermional Burial, and 10g. They have Pottery, but I don't ask; we're going to get it in 6 turns anyway.

(9) Warrior built, border expand. Some nice incense to the south sighted. Before exploration, we seem to be in a patch of desert surrounded by grassland and plains. Not bad.

(10-15) Nothing but exploration.

(16) Pottery discovered, Iron Working going on min sci at 40 turns, 6g/turn. Athens riots; the Hoplite hasn't been built yet, as we grow much faster than we build.

(17) I decide to switch the Hoplite to a Settler. I can just feel us lagging behind in growth. We'll leave Athens undefended for now. Lincoln is somewhere to the South, but he isn't a military threat just yet.

(18-22) Nothing.

(23) Disease kills a citizen in Athens, dropping it back to two. Damn flood plain.

(24) Disease hits Athens AGAIN! :mad: Its down to one now, I don't think it will be at three by the time the Settler is done...we'll have to wait and see.

(25-29) Sorry these turn numbers may be off. I can never count it right when there is long periods of nothing. :o

(30) Barb hut popped. Warriors attack us across the river, but we live. A black border seen to the west!

(31) The black border is across a channel. Can't even see the city. Normally I'd post a warrior here to get a good look, but we need our *sole* warrior to explore. I hate having one scout, but the disease really hurt our expansion.

(32) Athens riots again. Sorry. Note to teammates - Athens will riot whenever it hits size three without an MP in there. Sorry...

(33) Shaka greets us! (He's the black border.) We trade Burial for 10g and Warrior Code.

(34-38) Nothing.

(39) Settler built in Athens, shipped off to the western patch of grassland.

(40) Final turn. A barb is seen in the west. Sparta built. A few notes: Try to build another warrior in Athens to explore to the East and North. After that, I think churning out Settlers and Hoplite would be fine, with a few workers in between. Our southern most warrior should explore, obviously, to the South. If we can, try to play middleman between the Americans and the Zulu - the chances of the Zulu contacting the Americans is slim, so we can use that. :yeah: I was going to make a dotmap, but it would be pretty much worthless until we clear up that dark area immediately south of Athens and immediately west. Just use your judgement. ;)

Here is the save:

It's good to see I'm not alone in the bad luck department, but that doesn't bode well for the team. :p

It sounds like Athens is going to have shield problems until we get out of despotism and develop the land, so we may have to forego the granary.

Still at work, I'll take a look tonight and probably play 10 turns tomorrow, so this is a tentative Got It.

Originally posted by cromagnon
It's good to see I'm not alone in the bad luck department, but that doesn't bode well for the team. :p

It sounds like Athens is going to have shield problems until we get out of despotism and develop the land, so we may have to forego the granary.

Still at work, I'll take a look tonight and probably play 10 turns tomorrow, so this is a tentative Got It.

You're playing 20 turns overall, you know that...right? ;) And yes, I think Athens is going to be very low on shields, its really a settler city...and I HATE to have that as my capital. *sigh*

Gotcha, 20 turns it is.

By the way, I almost always use my capital as a settler city, but I usually have a better shield output than this.

We'll see if Sparta can generate the soldiers it was so famous for. :evil:

I'll join in but I have to warn you I still frequently get my a$$ kicked at monarch levels.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I'll join in but I have to warn you I still frequently get my a$$ kicked at monarch levels.

Hey Sultan. I didn't know you played SGs. Anyway, I've found that I can win at Emperor and occaisonally at Diety levels in SGs - because you have such a short term (20 or 10 turns) its really the players as a whole. So don't worry, I'm sure you'll do fine. :D

Not to worry, SB. I often get my butt whooped on Monarch as well. Sink or swim...

This is an excellent opportunity for some of the more experienced players to critique my choices and plays, so don't be shy! I can take the abuse! :cry: :)

Sounds like a fun game with people who find monarch still a challenge! Can I join?

(Thanks for the tip CroMagnon :) )

Sure Aggie. Licker sounds like he really can't anyway.

You know, I intended this to be game where some vets can help me get back into the groove...and suddenly I'm the vet! :crazyeye: Its alright, I'm doing a German game right now to refresh my memory...;)

Current Lineup:

Cromagnon--->Playing Now
Swiftsure--->On Deck
Sultan
Aggie
Me

Pre-turn, 2190 BC, Despotism, IW in 17, 0% Science.
Largest problem: A barbarian warrior right next to Athens! :eek: It must have slipped under CGannon's radar. It's going to either run away with our women, or kill off 3 shields of our warrior. Nothing I can do about it. No changes.

[1] (2190BC) Warrior in the south has 1 hp, fortify.
IBT: Minoan warrior kills one pop point in Athens. Probably the best outcome for us.

[2] (2150BC) nothing.

[3] (2110BC) Warrior south explores

[4] (2070BC) more exploration

[5] (2030BC) I see American borders to the SE.

[6] (1950BC) explore south

[7] (1910BC) Athens warrior -> Settler (I switch one FP tile to a BG, so we get a settler in 15, not 30), and Spartan hoplite -> hoplite. Warrior moves toward NE, hoplite to get rid of some of the black near us.

[8] (1870BC) Worker will work near Sparta for now to increase production.

[9] (1830BC) Southern warrior hits Cape Horn.

[10] (1790BC) More exploration

[11] (1750BC) Dilpo check shows Zulu has the Wheel, I trade Alphabet and 11 gold for this, and sell Wheel to Lincoln for all 25 of his gold. Horses revealed south of Sparta.

[12] (1725BC) Southern warrior fights a barbarian in camp and loses. Thanks, RNG! :p

[13] (1700BC) There are spices to our NE.
IBT We catch a glimpse of a yellow warrior who runs away.

[14] (1675BC) Sparta hoplite -> hoplite (builds every 7 turns for now). Athens grows to 3, I make a tax collector until MP gets there (IW in 3, so scientist doesn't do anything).

[15] (1650BC) Still no sign of that yellow warrior.

[16] (1625BC) Yellow is Egypt, they have no tech and 10 gold, but 4 cities. Diplo check shows that America has IW, horseback, and Mysticism. He must have another contact. He wants all 275 of our gold for any of them. I hold off, since our other neighbors are dirt-poor.
IBT some barbs running about, nothing too close to cities.

[17] (1600BC) We discover IW, and I queue up Writing -> Literature. Iron is on a hill right next to Athens. This is good not only for Swords, but also increased shields in Athens. I put a hoplite there, and turn the taxman into a hill laborer, so settler comes out in 3.

[18] (1575BC) I send the worker toward Athens. There it can do one of two things: a) work the iron hill to hook it up, and b) road to the spices south of Athens, which we'll expand to in 3 turns.

[19] (1550BC) I put the worker on the iron hill first.
IBT Barb warrior attacks our north warrior on a mountain, redlines it :mad: but we win and promote.

[20] (1525BC) Sparta builds hoplite -> Barracks. Athens builds settler (finally) -> Settler (this can be changed, but I think we'll grow enough). I see some Egyptian borders to the NE.

Diplo situation: Zulu 11g, -IW, -Masonry (polite)
Egypt 35g, -IW, -Alphabet (polite)
America 35g, +Horseback, +Mysticism He wants 270 and 230 gold, respectively (Cautious)
Not sure what to do here. I imagine we'd need Writing (37 turns) to find America's contacts and discount the techs. I really don't want to blow our budget on one 3rd tier tech.

My suggestion is to send the hoplite and settler to the south of sparta to claim the horses and cattle (build on the river).

Our exploration sucks, due to premature warrior lossulation. However, we have 3 luxuries within reach, if our settlers ever get cranking. Spices to the NE near Egypt, Incense to the south, and Ivory to the extreme south, near America.

Here is the game. Good luck! http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4_1525.zip

And a screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG1525SS.jpg

BTW, I think it's a good habit to post screenshots (if any) on a separate post from the timeline, as it stretches the window way to the right.

Originally posted by cromagnon
A barbarian warrior right next to Athens! :eek: It must have slipped under CGannon's radar.

Oh, I saw it. It was either our settler or ransacking our town...I let him ransack it. But, of course, it was your regime's fault. ;) :lol:

Good turns cromagnon. I was ready to criticise you for not building a settler in Sparta, but I'm guessing you are using that city as all production to feed Athens? If so, I don't mind. :)

BTW, I think good policy would be to squeeze in another settler city to the SW of Athens. Not right now - we need some more productive cities first - but sometime soon. Those babies will give us workers and settlers forever. :D

Swiftsure-->Up Now
Sultan-->On Deck
Aggie
Me
Cromagnon

Sparta could put out a settler, but it's not a growth powerhouse. I think Athens will do fine for now as a settler maker, until we find something better. Meanwhile, Spartan hoplites (every 4 turns) can defend our empire. We can soon use it to produce swords.

We ought to use our defensive advantage to make a land grab early. Yes, I see the spot you mean SW of Athens, but we can save it for later. Just north of our two cities is a pretty sweet spot with a BG, wheat, and two gold mines. Again, we can grab that a bit later too. I think grabbing 2-3 luxuries would help us immensely.

Watch Athens when it grows, Swiftsure. It will automatically work the FP tile, which would be a waste, since Athens needs shields. Either the BG or Iron Hills would be better.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Sparta could put out a settler, but it's not a growth powerhouse. I think Athens will do fine for now as a settler maker, until we find something better. Meanwhile, Spartan hoplites (every 4 turns) can defend our empire. We can soon use it to produce swords.

With hoplites every four turns, it should pretty much be able to cover our entire empire. :D

[b]
We ought to use our defensive advantage to make a land grab early. Yes, I see the spot you mean SW of Athens, but we can save it for later. Just north of our two cities is a pretty sweet spot with a BG, wheat, and two gold mines. Again, we can grab that a bit later too. I think grabbing 2-3 luxuries would help us immensely.[/b

:goodjob: I agree. With no apparent civs to the north, we can focus on getting the incense to the south. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't settle now - that grassland is our core - but I think we should settle the grassland and then the incense. Much later we can do the massive jungle clearing project, but that's a long way away.

I might make a dotmap later today, to better express what I'm trying to say.

Sorry, if I didn't make it clearer. Egypt IS to the NE, and actually closer to us than America is. I think the NE grassland is at great risk of being snorked up by Cleo.

Then again, the Cattle/Horses spot is too sweet to give up.

BTW, what do you press to zoom out a bit? I gave up after a little while.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Sorry, if I didn't make it clearer. Egypt IS to the NE, and actually closer to us than America is. I think the NE grassland is at great risk of being snorked up by Cleo.

Then again, the Cattle/Horses spot is too sweet to give up.

BTW, what do you press to zoom out a bit? I gave up after a little while.

Oh OK I see. Then that grassland should get our top priority, IMO. America isn't that much of a threat on that cattle spot, right? They aren't even visible on the map...

Its Z BTW. Very useful for making dotmaps.

Don't expect me to do screenshots. I don't do screenshots. I will keep extremely accurate notes though.

We probably don't need screenshots every time. The notes are more important. Screenshots are more eye candy for the lurkers. Except CGannon's dotmap. ;)

What kind of schedule are we on? Strict 24 hour 'got it,' or more flexible? I'm a bigger fan of the former, especially since I'm going away on the 11th of March, and would like to get as much of the game in as possible.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Except CGannon's dotmap. ;)[/b

Hey, its coming along, give me time. I just need to get a little Civ time free, that and a giant government sponsor. ;)

[b]
What kind of schedule are we on? Strict 24 hour 'got it,' or more flexible? I'm a bigger fan of the former, especially since I'm going away on the 11th of March, and would like to get as much of the game in as possible.

24 hours for the got it, 48 hours from the got it to to play. That's how my games usually work, and it works out fine. If you don't give the got it by then - if you are AWOL - you get benched and skipped automatically next time you are up until you post in the thread.

I run a tight ship. ;) :D

I want this game done by Thursday, ya hear?

Here's the dotmap. Feel free to comment, I'm sure I screwed up with the placement somewhere. Its not like I'm making this the official - think of it as a suggestion. Green is immediate future, Yellow is soon, and Red is long term. ;)

EDIT: Hmm, I'm having some trouble uploading it. I'll try tomorrow.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I want this game done by Thursday, ya hear?

Are you crazy? :crazyeye: Try in a month. SGs always take a while.

Had already played prior to the discussion on city placement and decided to go for Cattle/horsies.

1500-1425 not much,settler/hoplite heading to cattle

1400 arabian scout appears,tech prices come down but i decide to wait

1375-1350 Nada

1325 sparta builds barracks and starts hoplite. Thermopylae founded starts hoplite

1300 our contact has been sold to spain and celts and this starts a series of 11 trades which results in us having contacts with the ottoman and japan as well as writing,mysticism and horse riding

1275 we establish embassies with abe,cleo and abu

1250 -

1225 sparta builds hoplite and starts a worker

1200-

1175 sparta builds worker and starts a hoplite

1150 athens builds a settler and starts another, i think long about where to go but decide to go SE where we can see an american worker

1125-

1100 iron is now connected

1075 thermopylae builds hoplite and starts worker

1050 sparta builds hoplite starts worker. corinth founded starts worker

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4-1050AD.SAV

Nice trading, swiftsure. I agree that priority should be the SE, but the grassland to the North also. The grassland shouldn't be too hard to do - it only fits about three cities - but there is alot of plains down there. And irrigated plains are very good. ;)

Sultan-->Up Now
Aggie-->On Deck
Me
Cromagnon
Swiftsure

Beatiful work on the placement of Corinth, Swiftsure! And I wish I could have seen the trading you did, because I didn't expect us to have a huge treasury and good gpt afterward. I guess waiting paid off.

I was going to give you a hard time about the placement of Thermopylae (which does not give us access to horses until we build a temple/library), but it does give more room in the middle to put a few cities. I'm more of a swordsman than horseman player.

Good news! The lake is freshwater! Irrigation won't be a problem down south. My ideal would be to grab the spices to the NE, and the huge ivory patch to the south.

Sultan, as Athens grows in 2 turns, you'll need to do some micromanaging to increase SPT.

CGannon, feel to use the dotmap I sent you by PM, if you want to save yourself some time.

Post yours, cromagnon. I'm still having trouble with Uploading mine, and yours was made on the updated map, while mine isn't. Just a quick question: on your dotmap, is the space inbetween the cities implyed as being filler cities, or will it got to waste (unused)?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4Dot.jpg
Some comments:
Egypt is probably headed toward us. The red dot cuts her off somewhat and gets us spices. I included the hot pink
dot, as I didn't see Iron in her diplo screen, which suggests that we could deny her that resource as well as grab
some more spices, even though the jungle sucks (for now). But pink is a lower priority for me than Red.

The dark blue dot is on an ivory mine. America has only one or two ivories, and I doubt that there will be more ivory
elsewhere in the world. This spot would give us some trading power.

If we go for dark blue, we're likely to lose white to America, which I included to cut Lincoln off. I put it on the freshwater
tile, although it could also be placed SW one tile. I would rather go for dark blue than white.

The other three dots are relatively well-protected, and less of a priority for me, although they would make pretty
good cities. There's also room for one or two more cities just south of Athens.

My inclination would be to go for red, then dark blue. Maybe switch Thermopylae's worker for a settler to grab blue and red simultaneously (especially since we already have a hoplite to the south)

After bieng rejected by a regent game of always war, i want ot join this.

Skill level:
Highest Difficulty done: Cheiftan
Ability to meet the chalange:Exceedingly High
Total games played: 3
Total finished: 0 (worigm on one now)
Fav civ: Greek

As you see many wodul call em a n00b. But i belive if given a chance on ANY difficulty level i woudl prevail as i must. No game can deny my supreme gaming prowess. I await your descision.

PS

I am on 56k so if the game EVER goes above 350kb i will have to consider dropping. I can still play long as it is under 800kb though. IF ti goes above 800 zip it if possible.

I would be happy to play my turn but when I click on Swiftsure's link all I get is a page of squares and wierd dashes?

I see, netscape couldn't handle it but it worked in IE- back in a flash///

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I see, netscape couldn't handle it but it worked in IE- back in a flash///

Come join the superior forces of Opera! ;)

Sorry widdowmaker, but you'd make the seventh player on this SG. I usually only allow 4-5. We have the 6th spot reserved for licker, and you'd make number 7. With that many players, the game will go very slow.

I might make a training game, on Warlord or Regent, would you be interested?

Wait, he can probably have my spot after this round or the next- I am going to be on a long holiday from Thursday till three mondays from now...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Alexander_of_the_Greeks,_570_BC1.SAV

Damn that was tuff figuring out the upload system.

Okay, the reign of the worst leader ever:

1025 BC- sending units toward barbs.

1000 BC- Sparta builds a worker, who joins the irrigation team. Starts work on swordsman.

975- Warrior takes out a barb camp.

950- Thermopylae builds woker, starts on temple (but I'll change my mind later... I wanted to expand the sphere of influence to get the horses in). The irrigators now begin road south.

925-nothing

900- spearman takes barbarian camp by the elephants in the south. He's elite.

875- settler built in Athens, temple started there.

850- Irrigation at Thermopylae under threat from barb horseman, settler goes north with spear guard.

825- Corinth builds worker, starts hoplite, Sparta builds swordsman, starts next one.

800- Celts build oracle, swordsman kills a barb threatening the iron mine.

750- Elephant area spearman takes barb camp. Horse appears to threaten thermopylae- oops, I've left the spearman recuperating near the road workers. Settler and spearman reach the site of their city, after maneuvering around an egyptian settler. Chinook horseman pillages Thermopylae settler work, I change it to hoplite.

730- Delphi built in the woods on the coast below two spice deposits. The spice is ours and a coastal border with Egypt is secured. Work on second hoplite started there.

710-Barb appears and destroys irrigation south of Corinth.

690-barb killed attacking Corinth. The people wanna improve my palace, I choose to build the ground first so you guys can work out the architecture.

670-second swordsman built at Sparta, third on the way.

650- Contact Arab scout. As we have over a thousand bucks, I decide to spring for Mapmaking (210 gold plus map) and Mathematics (140 gold). The road between Thermopylae and Sparta is complete. Another barb camp on the west coast is dispersed.

630- Swordsman reaches Corinth to explore SE. Egyptians build El Armarna in the thick growth above Athens.

610-my darkest hour. A barb horseman appears from the shadows and kills two workers south of Thermopylae.

590- nothing.

570- a bad end to the Bhargash administration. Civil disorder in Sparta (I've set an entertainer to fix it), swordsman reaches thermopylae, the road to delphi is almost built, spearman coming north to Thermopylae to escort future settler (south to elephants seems the best idea), one worker unnassigned above Athens.

Good luck to my successors.

I am most certainly interested in a TDG. As for a seventh spot. DAMN THAYTTS ALOT!. Jsut keep me in mind if you need soemoen else.

OK, got it! I'll play tomorrow.

The situation looks very grim. We are last in the histograph and behind in tech :eek: I think we should have focussed on growth much more...

Sets all towns to settler and then ques hoplite right after that.

That will make htme grow! thats if i was playing. lol

Being last in the histograph is no surprise.

What I was surprised about, getting the game 60 turns in, was the utter lack of temples. I never play like that. Temples grow borders and stave off early unrest.

I declined to pop rush anything on my watch, I would have if it were "my own game"... I don't know if I'm cut out for this kind of a game situation...

It's all a learning experience, SB, and there's more than one right way to do things. That's part of the fun of a SG, you experience different peoples' strategies first-hand. Just look at Charis' Arab SG, and you can see the stark differences in style between Sirian and Charis, most often to humorous effect. I'm usually way behind until the Industrial ages too.

You can certainly go for temples, and there are certain places where this would be useful. Athens, as a settler factory wouldn't have much use for a temple, as it hardly ever gets above pop 3.

And there's nothing wrong with rushing, as long as you don't abuse our humble citizens into detesting you, which is hard to imagine. :)

So play the game as you would. Check here for words of encouragement or advice, but ultimately, you're the :king: for those 10-20 turns.

Sultan, I didn't mean to criticize. Sorry if it felt that way. Just see it as a suggestion from my site regarding the first couple of turns... Your save was the first I looked at in this SG.

And all of you: please don't spare me either. If I'm wrong, I like to know about it ;)

EDIT: I'm not a very disiplined CIV player myself. In my own games I often don't micromanage if I think that the difference is negligible. Also I tend to be a bit sloppy with the city placement. Much to dispair of the more advanced SG-ers if I would do that in their games as well...

This game is turning into a challenge. Let's try to make the best of it, considering that conquest is the only option :D In my book that should be a late conquest, because now we need:

- To expand
- Excellent relations with our AI opponents

Pre-turn: Decide to let Athens build the temple: pop-rush would cost too many shields. Sparta switched to settler. Luxury increased to 20%

Turn 1 - 550BC: Trade Philosophy and Code of Laws with American. I pay World Map and 285g

IT: The Cetls want territory map and 43 gold for peace. I decline. They declare war!! Since I don't know were they are on our world, I take obviously a gamble...

Turn 2 - 530BC: Sparta builds settler. Starts hoplite. Corinth builds hoplite. Starts settler.

Turn 3 - 510BC: Thermopylai builds settler. Starts another.

IT: The Americans build the Colossus and the Iroquois the Pyramids...

Turn 4 - 490BC: Pharsalos built NW of Athens. Start with worker. I decide to build as much as possible in a 'tight build' pattern, considering we are on a standard map...

IT: our swordsman beats an attacking barb horseman.

Turn 5 - 470BC: Athens finishes temple. Starts settler. Knossos built NE of Thermopilae.

IT: our swordsman beats an attacking barb horseman, part 2...

Turn 6 - 450 BC: Zzzzzzzz

IT: Mecca, Arabia builds the Great Library... 2nd super wonder for the AI in my turn.

Turn 7 - 430BC: Sparta builds hoplite. Starts settler.

Turn 8 - 410BC: Killed a warrior in a barb camp: 25 gold to our treasury

IT: Two barb attacks were unsuccesful.

Turn 9 - 390BC: We discover Literature and start Polytheism. A little comeback in the tech race... Again 25 gold from a barbarian camp

Turn 10 - 370BC: Zzzzzzzzzzz

IT: Our Arab friend wants 370 gold for world map! The same amount for currency. I decline for now...

Turn 11 - 350BC: Athens builds settler. Start another settler. Switch Pharsalos to settler.

IT: A barbarian uprising near Sparta is announced. Obviously two AI civs entered the middle ages - already!

Turn 12 - 330BC: Argos built in a bad position between Delphi and Athens. Sorry guys. It has shielded grasland and I felt Delphi couldn't be too isolated... Argos starts with a hoplite.

IT: As expected, 8 barbarian horsies near Knossos. Defended with a hoplite.

Turn 13 - 310BC: Thermopylae builds hoplite and starts settler. A swordsman kills one of the barbarian horsemen.

IT: We kill 6 horsemen and our swordsman gets promoted to elite. However 8 other horsies appear from the south!!

Turn 14 - 290BC Sparta builds settler. Starts hoplite.

IT: Spices near Delphi connected. Our swordsman survived 6 horsemen, but the seventh meant his death...

Turn 15 - 270BC The Celts want 220 gold for peace. I decline.

IT: Killed another 3 barbarians. But a new group appears from the south...

Turn 16 - 250BC: Mycenae built north of Sparta. Starts worker.

IT: Four down... one barbarian horseman left.

Turn 17 - 230BC: Zzzzzzzzzzzz

IT: The brabarians aren't a problem anymore. But the Celts appear north of Delphi!! One Archer, two horsemen and one warrior!

Turn 18 - 210BC: I decide to make peace. It costs me 200 gold. Sorry people... I haven't had any experience in this situation, since I normally am one of the strongest civs. Guess they knew our weakness... Athens builds settler and starts another. Knossos builds settler and starts hoplite.

IT: The Japanese offer currency for 350 gold. We don't need it yet. I give them our worthless world map to please them. The Celts retreat.

Turn 19 - 190BC: Corinth builds settler. Starts hoplite.

IT: New barbarians at the horizon...

Turn 20 - 170BC: Zzzzzzz

For the next player: I thought that the tech race and the cultural race aren't our most important problems at the moment. I built as many settler/hoplite combinations as I could. Beware, two settlers are undefended around Athens. Shouldn't be a problem, but don't get them out of your sight. Buying tech from the AI is quite cheap, but consider whether you really need it. And let the workers mine our shielded grassland.

170 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4-170BC.SAV)

Way to crank out the settlers, Aggie! :goodjob:

Remember valor of our Spartan Swordsman! May many more come forth to avenge his death! :die:

War with the Celts? :eek: I guess by the rules, we are only allowed to defend ourselves against them, as we did not initiate the war. Moot point, as Aggie made peace with them in the nick of time. The disadvantage of cranking out settlers is that you go undefended for a while.

I haven't looked at the SG or a SS, but my suggestion would be to slow down on settlers (maybe one more if there's room), and beef up our defense and offense. After all, we are the Warmongering Greeks... :evil:

We should also decide on our first victim. Preferably someone with a few more techs than we have, so we can extort them, as we are behind.

Edit: Also, America has wines which we don't have; I don't think Egypt has anything of significant value, but may be an easy early target.

Originally posted by cromagnon
War with the Celts? :eek: I guess by the rules, we are only allowed to defend ourselves against them, as we did not initiate the war. Moot point, as Aggie made peace with them in the nick of time. The disadvantage of cranking out settlers is that you go undefended for a while.

I haven't looked at the SG or a SS, but my suggestion would be to slow down on settlers (maybe one more if there's room), and beef up our defense and offense. After all, we are the Warmongering Greeks... :evil:

We should also decide on our first victim. Preferably someone with a few more techs than we have, so we can extort them, as we are behind.

Sorry for the :smoke: regarding the Celtish war. I should have seen that they lead the histograph...

About the settlers: We CAN still build 3 or 4 cities, but I guess you're right, we could stop then...

About war: we are in a better position now. I suggest to check if one of our neighbours lacks iron and horses: they can be our first victims...

Don't worry about the histograph guys, you're ALWAYS behind in the first era. Humans naturally start out bad, but then they catch up.

I agree about toning down the settler production. I'll have to see the map to make a full decision, but we seem to have been really cranking out those settlers, perhaps spreading ourselves too thin.

About our first victim: again, I can't make a good decision until I see the map (you guys CAN post screenshots ;)) but I guess it would probably be the Americans or Eygpt, someone nearby.

Me-->Up Now, I GOT IT
cromagnon-->On Deck
Swiftsure
Sultan
Aggie

Finally: widdowmaker, you're the backup for Sultan when he leaves. I'm sure you'll do well. :)

Horrible news. I was just about to save - I was literally on the end of turn 20, when the game crashed. It might be for the better - after all, war raged around us, we lost a city to the Americans, and there was a two-archer invasion of our territory. We were in Anarchy too. :lol:

This time, I WILL NOT refuse that deal by Spain! That got us into the whole mess....

Well, back into the breach my friends. I'll be back in half and hour, I have to play again now...:wallbash:

CHEATER!!!

Hey, hey, don't jump on my back yet. I have yet to check to see if there are any autosaves left - my mom hijacked the computer. Anyway, I SWEAR that the game DID crash. I'm pretty sure there will be an autosave, but I have to check.

Trust me, I hate cheating. ;)

sure ting cg. i will folow this. ( i am 16 no gf and no life. civ 3 and nwn are my best freinds.)

Yes use the autosave which there will be when you get there.

PS- If your mom "hijacked" the computer, how are you writing this???

Don't accuse me of cheating, Sultan. ;) I recovered an autosave from about turn 16 of my 20 turn set. I made the same mistake of taking the Hoplite out of the city that would be razed by the Americans. Just resettle it with the Hoplite/Settler that I took out. We are in Anarchy, switch to Monarchy ASAP. Good luck, cromagnon!

(1) I trade Lincoln 340g for his World Map. It was definetely worth it, as the entire continent is crystal clear now. Plus, since Lincoln will probably be our first target, we need to know his entire map. I trade Brennus about 6gpt and 600g for Polytheism and Currency. We now seem to be only behind tech by one - Construction. Looking at the map, I think we should fill out our patch of land, link up our borders with America, and then go warmongering. I think now there are still too many holes.

(2) Note to the rest of the team: If there is a wandering unit (like the Hoplite in this turn) please leave a note about where he is going to go. I have no idea. How did we get a swordsmen all the way up to the Celtic lands? That's a LONG way to walk...:crazyeye:

(3) Delphi is frozen at pop 2, and we are building a settler. I switch off to worker. We are awfully short on workers...alot of our cities are still unconnected. This is one of the disadvantages of SGs - sometimes an inherited empire just feels...off...like its not in your style. Oh well, I'll play on. ;)

(4) Celts declare war on the Egyptians. The Spanish make a demand. I have NO clue where Spain is, to be honest. I pray she isn't close and say no. She delcares war, but a quick scan and Spain is too far away to do any damage. Phew. Worker built. America builds another city, they are getting awfully close. I decide that, after the next wave of cities are built (should be in a few turns) we are going for all out war preperations. :D America is large, so it will be a LONG war, but we'll a little over double our size if we win---err, when we win. ;)

(5) Ephesus and Thessalonica founded, filler cities. Crap, Ephesus missed the incense - but no worry, its inside our territory anyway, and after a Temple, we'll have it. We are in desperate need of workers, so I switch the settler in Athens off to a worker - no where that city could go anyway, except in the crappy jungles to the north. Crap!! I do the stack movement for a settler/hoplite stack, and the hoplite doesn't move! I wish there was some way I could have seen that...and there is a warrior nextdoor. Damn it!

(6) Zululand declares war on Egypt (yeah, right Shaka). Spain drags Arabia into the conflict. The Sh*ts hitting the fan for me. Why did I have to reject the Spanish demand, out of pride? Arabia is close enough to send a trickle of units over. War preparations on the way. I know we can't attack Arabia, but we CAN build up some extra Hoplites. I break out the whip in Sparta as a barb is awfully close. UGH what a horrible set of events for me! :wallbash:

(7) I trade our WM, Poly, 102g, and 2gpt for Currency. We now have tech parity. :yeah: Zululand jumps down our throat! Spain has now dragged Arabia and Zululand into the war. Zulu isn't a threat, but Arabia is - a stack of Spearman and settler comes marching towards us. Um, wait, they're not a threat. Rhodes founded, a filler city in the desert, grabs us another incense. Long term preperations: Every city will build its current build, at which point we'll start the great war preperations. Major cities will build swordsmen, minor cities anything. Border cities will get two Hoplites. Workers will connect all our cities. Minor cities with enough pop will churn out workers, as our terrain is badly underdeveloped.

(8) Spain declares war on the Egyptians - I hope those warmongers get their arses kicked. The current war situation, as WWI has broken out: Spain, Arabia, Zulu, and the Celts vs. Egypt and us. The only real threats to Egypt is Spain and the Celts, and the only real threat to us is the Arabs, who are still pretty minor. This looks like a fake war, with little combat, except on the Spanish-Egyptian border.

(9) Nothing really. Workers work. An Arabian warrior (Elite) approaches. He'll die on our doubly defended city.

(10) Nothing really. Production. The war buildup phase is almost here, although it will mostly be in the next set of 20.

(11) The Arabian warrior fortifies in our territory. Strange AIs. Just a note: its better to irrigate Plains, IMO, so the cities can grow. A massive (2 workers, lol) irrigation project begins to bring water to the far city of Corinth.

(12) Hey, we gained Monotheism somehow. I don't even remember entering Medeival times, and there was no popup...

(13) Zip.

(14) War prepations begin! In a display of the amazing production power of the Greeks, one swordsmen is built, and another is set to be made in 60 years! The people cheer! Seriously though, I'm surprised at Athen's producing power - swords every 5 turns, rightup there with our powerhouse cities...

(15) Riders on the storm...:D

(16) Arabia declares war on the Eggies. Funny, I thought they were at war already. The Ottomans, our primary trading partner since WWI erupted, has Monarchy but not willing to deal. Damn, I hate Despotism.

(17) Hoplites built round the nation.

(18) America declares war on us! The Arabs brought them in. A lone horse heads into our territory. Damn man, I've forgotten the dogpile effect during my hiatus. You know what really sucks about this - we can't attack America until they make peace with us. Our war preperations should be done in 20-30 turns, lets hope they make peace quick. Ah, sh*t! Knossos is undefended! Damn we ARE spread too thin. Nothing I can do, either.

(19) Knossos burned to the ground. A settler/Hoplite pair I had headed to the desert aboutfaces to rebuild Knossos. A stray archer and that evil horse are roaming in our territory...not really threats though, as our front lines have Hoplites, and occaisonally two.

(20) Cleo takes our Monotheism for Monarchy! Revolution coming up baby...! A stray swords (coming back from Ottoman lands) is killed by an American. Cromagnon, you inherit an empire in ruins. OK, so I'm exaggerating. We lost one city, about to be rebuilt, we are in Anarchy, about to come out, and there is a one horse invasion of our territory. Big deal. :)

And the save:

CG4 - 170AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4-170AD.sav)

Good luck cromagnon!

cromagnon UP NOW
swiftsure ON DECK
Sultan
Aggie
Me

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
PS- If your mom "hijacked" the computer, how are you writing this???

Laptop with a wireless network in the house. Its a beautiful thing, but no Civ on it, and no save file. :)

Good job getting us to tech parity. We'll extort the rest.

Note to teammates: Do NOT leave units on auto-move, and do NOT automate workers! :nono:

You know what really sucks about this - we can't attack America until they make peace with us. Our war preperations should be done in 20-30 turns, lets hope they make peace quick.
We'll need a ruling on this, CGannon. Technically, we have not declared war on anybody yet. The rule states:
we cannot be at war with more than one civ at a time. MPPs are allowed, but if we get drawn into a war (our ally is attacked) we cannot attack offensively. If another Civ attacks you, you are only allowed to defend your own territory or to recapture cities you lost in that war. So, in short, the only offensive attacks you can make are on civilizations you attacked.

One interpretation is that we are being attacked by America, and therefore can not retaliate except within our own territory/cities.

The other interpretation is that we have not yet declared war on anyone (we have not chosen a target), and that we could make peace with the other civs, and (de facto) declare war on America, making it our only target.

Also, if you take the rule literally, it means you have to make peace with others before you can attack someone else. Let me know what you think.

I'll GET IT tonight, and see what I can do. :cool:

Originally posted by cromagnon

The other interpretation is that we have not yet declared war on anyone (we have not chosen a target), and that we could make peace with the other civs, and (de facto) declare war on America, making it our only target.


Here's an example that is kind of fitting at the moment: we can be at war with the whole world. Every country attacked us except America, who we attacked. We CAN make offensive attacks on America, but no one else. We're limited to one OFFENSIVE war at a time, but unlimited defensive wars.

Does that clear that up?

PS - I had to break the bank to get tech parity...;)

Originally posted by cgannon64
(12) Hey, we gained Monotheism somehow. I don't even remember entering Medeival times, and there was no popup...


We are scientific...., therefore we get a new tech. And it's a bug in patch 1.14 that no pop-up appears....

I am REALLY sorry about that hoplite. I thought that I switched all automation off. And don't worry: I did NOT automate workers...

Recap of the situation: We are at war with the Americans, Zulu, Arabs, and Spanish.
We are missing Republic, which several others have, but because we are in anarchy, no one will sell it to us (no gpt). Treasury is 250, -8 gpt. Anarchy to last another 3 turns. We have no embassy (and can't build one in Anarchy) with the Ottomans, so I can not sign a military alliance with him against the Americans (being America's closest neighbor, they would draw off some heat from us).
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4Grim.jpg
(170AD) Inherited Turn: Switched Thessalonica, Pharsalos, Delphi, Athens, and Thermopylae to Barracks. Argos and Sparta switched to swordsmen. We need veteran troops, and fast! Warrior in Argos upgraded to sword I set workers to build roads, rather than irrigate, as we need to move troops around quickly.

IBT: Arab warrior redlines our vet sword on a hill and dies, but our sword falls to an American sword. 4 Arab warriors approach Corinth.
American horse attacks hoplite in Ephesus, and dies, triggering our Golden Age. Another horse attacks, killing our hoplite and capturing Ephesus and 10 gold!

[1] (190AD) Eretria founded in the ashes of Knossos, connecting horses. Move swords to retake Ephesus.
IBT: Of course, the Americans sign the Ottomans on in the war against us. :mad: 4 spanish horses approach our northern city of Delphi, but the only thing they'll take for peace is Delphi. The Arab SoWarriors moves away!

[2] (210AD) No one will sign peace with us, and we have no embassies with the Celts or Japanese to take some of the heat off. Swordman takes back Ephesus without harm or promoting.
IBT: Celts demand (and get) 27 gold and territory map from us. Ah, I see why the Arab warriors went back - to pick up a swordsman friend. :p

[3] (230AD) We are now a Monarchy! :goodjob: Income is 52gpt, I leave Engineering at 10%, due in 39. Mycenae switched to horse. It would cost 100 gold to build embassy with the Celts, leaving us with 55, which wouldn't give us anything to deal with.
IBT: I thought hoplites were supposed to be good defenders... Spain takes Delphi with the first horse, only taking two damage. :mad: American archer kills one of our swords fortified in a forest. I think I insulted the RNG's mother yesterday. Good thing I started building a horse, because an American spear pillage it.

[4] (250AD) Argos builds sword -> sword, which fortifies there as the Spanish horsemen approach from the hills.
IBT: The Arabs attack with 4 warriors (first) then a sword, promoting both our hoplites in Corinth to Elite! :saiyan: Spain attacks Argos, and our hoplite there wins against all 3, promoting to elite.

[5] (260AD) Fortify a sword at Ephesos, which I stupidly left under-garrisoned, and is surrounded by American troops. Argos Sword goes to reclaim Delphi, which has a spear in it already. Crap. I just noticed that sea is NOT freshwater, only a tiny isolated bit of it near Corinth is. I build an embassy in Entremont,, but Brennus want 32 gpt, and all 143 of our gold for an alliance vs Spain. I rush Barracks in Corinth, sword in Sparta, and horse in Mycenae.
IBT: Spanish horse kills our sword. Sword in Ephesos survives a warrior attack and promotes to vet.

[6] (270AD) Sparta Sword-> Sword, Mycenae -> Barracks. Sword takes out the pillaging American spear, and promotes to elite.
IBT: Spanish horse (the same that took Delphi) kills our elite hoplite in Argos, and plunders 9 gold. Americans assault Ephesos, burning it to the ground.

[7] (280AD) Rush barracks in Thermopylae.
IBT: I was wondering when this would happen - Egypt signed on the Greek dogpile. :mad:

[8] (290AD) Athens sword -> sword. Horse takes out an American archer near Eretria and runs back to heal. Workers run for their lives. Brennus won't do any alliance, even if I micromanage to get 46 gpt. So, I build an embassy in Kyoto, and give Tokugawa Monotheism for an alliance against Egypt.
IBT: Eretria survives a horse attack. Shaka gives his list of ridiculous demands. Bye, Shaka.

[9] (300AD) Move workers around
IBT: OK, now I'm convinced - hoplites suck. Elite hoplite in Eretria loses to an American horse. American archer takes out our horse stationed there. Arabia moves another stack of swords near Corinth, Spain moves some troops back to protect Argos, as I threaten it with a sword.

[10] (310AD) Athens builds Sword, which kills a Spanish Archer. Northern sword kills the horseman that single-handedly took Delphi and Argos.
IBT: Corinth's two elite hoplites fall to two Arab swords. A Spanish horse takes out our sword (she seems to have reinforcements streaming in). Arabs land a spear on our west coast. Thermopylae survives an archer attack.

[11] (320AD) Athens goes into disorder. Big OOPS. Swordsman loses to a sword near Corinth. Sparta builds a sword, which promptly loses to the Arab spear.
IBT: Thermopylae survives 2 archers. Arab spear moves toward worker-bait. Spain has horsemen just outside Athens, threatening our iron. :eek:

[12] (330AD) Thermopylae builds a hoplite. Pharsalos builds a sword, which finally kills the Arab spear.
IBT: Spain goes for Pharsalos and loses a horse.

[13] (340AD) Sword kills American archer, but falls into the lap of a swordman. Research now set to zero.
IBT: Thermopylae survives a horse. Our elite sword falls to America's sword. So far no sign of Egypt.

[14] (350AD) Two of our swords kill two Arab ones. Spain wants all 250 of our gold and 20 gpt for peace; Arabia wants 250 and 10 gpt. Let's see if I can slap him silly a bit more.
IBT: Spain kills one hoplite in Pharsalos. America wants 250 and 31gpt for peace. No way.

[15] (360AD) A sword kills an Arab spear and threatens an American settler/spear. Workers connect Rhodes. Spartan sword moves to Pharsalos. I set the trap for the Arabs...
IBT: They didn't go for it. I should have used more bait. :p Spain retreats to heal, and starts on Sun Tzu's.

[16] (370AD) Pharsalos sword takes out a Spanish horse on a mountain. Sword takes the spearman and puts the two 'liberated' workers to run away. I move two swords to threaten Corinth. Peace is still expensive.
IBT: America takes back the two workers. Don't know how I missed that. An American sword takes out a vet hoplite at Thermopylae without taking a scratch, and a mini SoD threatens the city. Will Thermopylae survive the onslaught?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4Thermo.jpg
To be Continued...

[17] (380AD) Pharsalos goes into disorder. :blush: One of our swords loses to a spear, another one kills it and promotes to elite. Our swords do a miserable job against Corinth, losing to a sword there. I take back the workers.
IBT: America attacks, but Thermopylae holds! It's down to one hoplite now. The Ottomans approach.

[18] (390AD) Pharsalos is rioting. It lost too many policemen. Unfortunately, this will probably cost us the city. I set another trap for Arabia. I rush a sword in Pharsalos.
IBT: Kyoto builds Hanging Gardens. Thermopylae's elite hoplite loses to an archer who takes no damage. :mad: Spanish archers approach.

[19] (400AD) I kill three Arab units, promoting one sword to elite. I get peace for 173 and 6 gpt. I take out an American spear near Athens, and move two swords to the mountains near Pharsalos.
IBT: Ottomans attack Thessalonica and are repelled. One of our swords in the open survives a sword and is elite. Spain moves toward Mycenae. Everyone is building Sun Tzu's except us). Our Golden Age ends next turn.

[20] (410AD) I shuffle the hoplite from Sparta to Mycenae, so it is now undefended (for the next 2 turns) with an American galley just offshore. I put a swordman there for MP. Our mountain watch cuts into the warrior/archer stack.
IBT: Spanish archers assault Mycenae, but it comes down to one hoplite, who promotes to elite. America lands a horse next to Sparta. Next player: When you attack it with the sword, make sure to take into account disorder in Sparta.
America wants Thessalonica for peace. Spain will take all 196 of our gold and 22 gpt (leaving us with 10 gpt) for peace. I'm tempted to take it, given how poorly our hoplites have fared against attackers of strength 2. I sign a peace treaty with Egypt, which is down to 4 cities, thanks to the Celts. Ottomans want 196 and 2 gpt, but are not enough of a threat for now. Neither are the Zulu, whom we can get peace with for a tech or two.

Many civs are up four techs on us, Theology, Engineering, Feudalism, and Republic. We don't have enough money to buy alliances with anyone.

My suggestion is to crank out swords until we can do enough damage to Spain to get peace, then concentrate on America to get our cities back.

The main problem we fell into (besides a couple of stupid mistakes on my part, and an unfriendly RNG) is the dogpile. I've survived a mass-dogpile, but only when I had an island mostly to myself.
Good luck!

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4_420.SAV

ps. Hoplites SUCK! :)
pps. Screenshot to follow...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4SS.jpg

Oh my God! I suddenly don't feel too bad about my play!!! This looks like a short one!!! :lol:

Got it...... it aint over till the fat lady sings......my god theres a crowd of fat ladies singing outside my window.

Good Lord this is horrible! It seems any SG branded 'CG' is doomed to have bad luck. What's with the RNG? I've never seen any this bad...so many loses in Horses v. Hoplite situation...:crazyeye:

This game is NOT over folks, definetely not. Peace will come within the next 20, I can feel it. Our military is growing, as we've been ALL military in the last 20 moves. We just need to shift this steam from defense to offense. The worst part is that we have to make peace with America somehow, and THEN declare war again.

To be honest, this is the worst dogpile I have ever seen, except from reading some Diety games. :crazyeye:

Swiftsure-->Up Now, you have the save, right?
Sultan-->On Deck
Aggie
Me
Cromagnon

WHY DID I REFUSE THAT DEMAND OUT OF PRIDE????? :wallbash:

Oh, and don't ask why I'm on at 7:35 AM. Lets just say I forgot some printing to do...:lol:

Oh, and if we lose this...there will be a revenge in CG5, with all of you invited back. :)

Don't worry, I've never lost an SG yet, only quit do to lack of participation...:crazyeye:

CG, Will get save when i get home tonight, 7.35, its 1pm here i,ve been at work for 6 hours already!

First business peace with abe and Isabella and then get corinth back off Abu.

Spain before America? the've both got 2 of our cities but spain have to come a lot further to get to us and if we can get an alliance with brennus it would be even more differcult for them to get us.

What's with the RNG? I've never seen any this bad...so many loses in Horses v. Hoplite situation...
Well, it wasn't ALL the RNG... It didn't help, but I could have played a lot better. For one thing, three cities going into disorder is no good, especially when another hoplite may have helped save Thermopylae. Second, I was hasty (emboldened by the GA) in attacking; in retrospect, I should have built up a horde of swords, then attacked. I lost some needlessly by attacking unsupported.

On the other hand, I did have two things going for me. a) the Golden Age, and b) the Arabs at Corinth and Spanish at Mycenae attacked first with warriors then swordsmen, even if they were in the same stack. This tended to promote me more than usual (although it didn't end up helping).

Again, Swiftsure, watch Sparta for disorder, as without MP it will certainly happen. Good luck!

Sorry for the brief report but RL is really cutting into my actual playing time. I wont give details for turns when we are just fighting (every turn) but just when important events occur.

430ad-
440ad- japan demands t/m and 23gp which i refuse. guess what they declare war. the spanish town in the jungle adjacent to pharsalos is razed.
450ad- elite sword retakes argos,enough for now and pay spain 180gp for peace,trade peace for lit with zulus and peace for 20gp with ottomans. only at war with america and japan now. change pharselos to settler, a risk but it would be good to get that old spanish town site.
460ad Abu has 2 sword outside retaken argos and we only have one sword defending,he demands t/m and 20gp, we wrap it in pretty paper and give it to him. we have a long memory.
470ad-
480ad- we kill an american spear and capture his escorted settler
490ad-
500ad- pharsalos completes settler and restarts swords. settler and hoplite head into jungle
510ad-530ad just war
540ad- a lot of gallic swords appear on our argos border, decide to send brennus gift of 1gpt and pray. troy built and starts hoplite
550ad- a lot of japanese MI appear close to troy but toko accepts 4gpt and 110gp for peace
560ad-590ad build swords and kill abes troops
600ad-5 swords move adjacent to eretria and 7 swords move from thessalonica
610ad- brennus likes presents this time we give him t/m and 19gp
Our swords attack eretria we lose 1 sword but reduce the defenders to 1 spear. The last attack is lead personally by general pyrhus. after the battle i send him back to athens for R & R
620ad- eretria falls but the people have been under the evil americans to long and they resist our benevolent ways.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4-620ad.SAV

Abe will now offer a straight peace deal but i (sorry) we want thermopylae back and we have a lot of swords approaching it. Pyro is sitting in athens... any ideas.

Great (partial) recovery :goodjob: No research, everything on military.... seems like the perfect choice in this situation. Also thanks for making peace with most AI...

I vote for an army. But, if we want to build Sun Tzu, let's be quick, because the AI's will cascade to it, since Leo was just built by Brennus... But please use the leader immediately. We can always get a 2nd one...

I've got the save, will get thru this in about an hour... I'm going to wait a little bit to start to hear a bit more about the Army vs. Sun Tzu debate.

In my mind, Sun Tzu is essential for Warmongering- this world looks pretty Pangeaic to me, and to have a safe house in each successive conquest seems impressive.

If I get an army built, I will probably not use it very well...

Excellent work, Swiftsure. :goodjob: I was hoping that one of the 3-4 elite swords I left you would produce a leader, as my luck was poor.

I would go for a swordman army. After all, Conquest is our goal! :saiyan: As far as Sun Tzu's goes, we have barracks in just about every city, and our empire is relatively small; although I like that wonder, I think a victorious army would do us better with HE and MA.

I say take back Thermopylae and Eretrios, make peace with Abe, and build up our military a bit. The only problem with attacking the Arabs (and taking back Corinth) is that we can't really make any headway in our war with them, as they are to far away.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
In my mind, Sun Tzu is essential for Warmongering- this world looks pretty Pangeaic to me, and to have a safe house in each successive conquest seems impressive.


It's always good to stay positive and consider the future effects of the wonders :) But a victorious army is also great, because we will be able to build Heroic Epic, to get a better chance to get leaders...

Thanks for the tidy summary, Cro Mag, and further opinions, Swiftsure. A swordsman army it is. Not my playing style but then I've been known to hold leaders for centuries...

I'm looking forward to getting our cities back and winning acclaim!

I say Sun Tzu. An army would contain swords, and we are going to get Knights and MedInf very soon, so the swords would be obsolete. Sun Tzu is VERY imporant - vet defenders in every new city is a great thing to have.

My vote is Sun Tzu. We WILL be getting alot of leaders, remember! ;)

Nice work BTW swiftsure. :goodjob:

Oh, great King Bhargashopoulos! Please allow me, your humble servant, to gingerly submit to you that during your glorious and illustrious reign over us and our people, you are the all-mighty, all-powerful, and all-knowing. We (CGannones, Cromagnonopoulos, Swiftsures, and Aggiopoulos) are but mere advisors whose wisdom pales in comparison to yours!
:D

Don't forget to make a sacrifice to the RNG. ;) :D

The Rise of Greece

630 AD- Riding in on a platform of "Restore the Pride" the Sultan's first decission was allow Pyrrhus to rally an army of 2 swordsmen who went out from Athens' walls to dispatch a lurking American spearman. Tho' it took them to their last 2 hit points, we killed the cretin and immediately production was switched in Athens to the Heroic Epic.

-between turns, the Celts built the Art of War, proving the Sultan was wise not to waste the leader trying to get what he would have missed by a half turn.

640 AD- Troy builds spearman and barracks are lined up for it. The army retruns within Athens' walls to rest their wounds. A mass of our swordsmen are outside Thermopylae. Our first parly with Abe he offers 60 gold for peace. We laugh. (I want feudalism).

650 AD- Thermopylae is won back with the loss of but one elite swordsman. With 3 resisters, we make worker the first build there. Two swordsmen die in killing 3 mideival infantry as the column moves south to "convince" Abe.

-between turns; Ottomans offer wine for incense. We take the deal.

660 AD- Swordsman ki9lls a medieval infantry outside St. Louis. Another dies getting a longbowman out of Thermopylae's gardens, a second kills him. Our healed army moves south to menace detroit. Abe will give 250 gold for peace but isn't budging on tech.

-between turns; Japan and America sign a military alliance against us. 2 Greek swordsmen and 1 American medinf die fighting outside st. Louis.

670 AD- 3 Swordsman take St. Louis for Greece, giving us 2 ivory. Stretched thin, we now take a deal for Peace with America in which we pay him 20 gold a turn. The best we could negotiate; I wanted to quell revolt.

-between turns barracks at Argos done, to build hoplite.

680 AD- Isabella gives 5 gold per turn for Ivory. Workers all over working on roads.

690AD- I hurry a hoplite at Thermopylae. Flushed with succes, I am considering an attack on the Arabians in Corinth and Yayama.

[b]The Fall of Greece[b]

Between turns, Thermopylae flips to Americans. They also build the Sistine Chapel.

The Sultan is aghast- regaining Thermopylae is part of my mandate.

700AD- no news
710AD- repositioning forces
720AD- repositioning forces
730 AD- repositioning forces.
-between turns; Temple in Sparta is built (a decision to try and encompass incense in our borders. I find our lack of faith disturbing.) Troy barracks done, hoplite underway. St. Louis produces cash rushed hoplite.

740AD- our army, now 3 swordsmen strong, moves into the Detroit region. Other swordsmen force moves into Thermopylae.

750 AD- We declare war on America- the purpose is regaining our city. I don't know if this violates Gannon's rules but I would welcome you guys tossing out my turn and playing it over from Swiftsure's save- you'll see why in a moment.

We take Thermopylae, send a hoplite from Thebes south to support a detroit invasion.

-between turns; Spain joins Japan in alliance against us. Massive Japanese forces arrive just north of Troy. American Forces east of St. Louis repelled.

760 AD- Stalemate outside of Detroit, I repel froces at St. Louis. I make peace with Japan for 92 gold + 9 gold a turn- they would have smoked Troy. I enlist the Celts in an alliance against Spain for a further 24 gold a turn.

-Between turns; The KNIGHTS arrive. St. Louis is taken back, knights everywhere, Aquaduct built at Pharsalos, I do a horseman there next for mobility.

770 AD- Two hoplites die, trying to remove the last hit point from the last knight defending Detroit.

-Between turns, the army is killed outside detroit, Thessalonika falls to a knight charge by the Americans. Civil disorder breaks out all over.

780 AD- Hoplites get the Thessalonika knight down to last hit point. Our last chance to take or raze their new forward base.

-between turns; many workers captured who were building the connecting road from Thessalonika to Detroit when the last hoplite nearby goes down under knight chage.

790 AD- our one horseman (why so few?) cuts the road south of Thermopylae hoping to slow a knight rush.

-between turns; knights reach Athens vicinity.

800 AD- Knights killed by swordsmen at Eritrea.

Between turns: Thermopylae retaken by knights. A feint with diverted hoplites saves Athens from virtually assured destruction. Eritrea falls to Knights. Disorder rampant again; what kind of settings are these where you aren't asked to deal with it immediately?

810- Two hoplites move into reinforce Athens.

820 AD- workers are on the run back towards Sparta, probably will be caught by knights on the off turn. Heroic Epic two turns away in Athens. America won't talk, but Spain will do a free peace treaty IF you want that. 23 gold, -1 per turn, no tech advance my whole turn. :( We are hopelessly backward, depleted militarily, doomed to extinction.

Where did I err? Reopening war with America certainly bad idea, but should I have taken the 250 gold and not St. Louis? As often happens, my reach exceeded my grasp.

I'll upload the game now, but remember, I won't be offended if you want to ignore my terrible reign. I will not be taking another turn- if Greece survives a whole nother round, let the new guy have my spot. :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG4-820ad.SAV

go for it

Don't worry about it Sultan. We won't replay your turn, I'm against that.

Lets have a vote: Do we resign here, or do we play on? I'd be willing to do both, but if we resign, I would make a CG5 with all of you invited back.

Aggie -> Up Now
Me -> On Deck
Cromagnon
Swiftsure
Sultan

It's almost midnight in Amsterdam... And I won't have time in the next two days... in think. I WILL be able to post here, from my work... CG, I could switch places with the next player or I could skip this round... What's your suggestion?

@Sultan: maybe it's just because you aren't a natrual war-time president ;) Don't feel too bad: some of us inspired you to declare war to the Americans...

Originally posted by cgannon64
Lets have a vote: Do we resign here, or do we play on? I'd be willing to do both, but if we resign, I would make a CG5 with all of you invited back.[/i]

Doesn't matter to me either. Never ended a SG beofre, win or loss...

I think I have learned some lessons in this game until now:

- Give the AI civ a tribute when you're far behind (I can also be blamed...)
- Expand in the early game. Build cities. More cities means more income, shields, tech...
- Use Military Alliances before the AI uses them. We could have stopped the initial (Spanish?) attack by geting a MA with their neighbours. Spain would never have reached us. Or was this against the rules?

Do you all agree and any other lessons learned here?

I would add, from my games, (granted, only won once on Monarch level):

Things I always knew:

1.You can't do it without temples, guys. What the hell?! Temples grow borders, which slows attackers. Temples mean you have the option of moving out a defender when you need back up.

2. In symmetrical warfare, horsemen are more useful than swordsmen.

3. You have to play to the Civ's strengths. Greece is scientific and (commercial? I don't even know) for a reason.


Things I learned this time around:

1. At monarch level, you get even less slack. Come with everything you have in battle or don't come at all.

2. Secure cities and make sure culture flip won't happen (by building TEMPLES and using worker/settlers to get grumpy foreigners out) before you move on to the next war.

3. You can fall behind in tech, but you can't fall so far behind that you don't have pikemen when they have knights.

Whether you guys scrap this or not, I'm out of town for a week and a half. It was fun, but stressful indeed. I'd be eager to try again at a future date, thanks to Cromag for inviting me and everyone else for putting up with me.

That makes cromagnon up, but he also gets to cast his vote if we scrap this or not.

What I've learned: Temples. Sultan has a point, we needed them.

Always give into demands. I used to hate doing this, and had lots of success not giving in, but on Diety (and apparently on Monarch too :rolleyes: ) the AIs will dogpile you in a second.

Attack 100%. Our attack on America has halfhearted, and came back to bite us in the arse. (No offense Sultan.)

EDIT: While we aren't putting the lid on this game yet, you are all cordially invited to CG5. Look a few threads up. ;)

That was pretty well-played, SB. The only thing I would have done differently (and otherwise I would have done pretty much the same things you did) is not to re-declare war so quickly on America. While we're Warmongering Greeks, we're not under mandate to 'immediately retake' our lost cities.

Temples take too long to build for this civ; we'd do better with libraries (less time, more culture), being scientific. However, taking time to build temples reduces your land-grabbing potential, and you really need 5-6 good solid cities to get anywhere.

I agree with Aggie's points 100%. Sultan, your points are quite valid. The culture flip was a piece of bad luck, IMO, coupled with the fact that I lost the city in the first place, which shouldn't have happened. Horsemen would have been nice, but it wasn't an option, because of where we placed our southern city. I'm more into swords, because of their 2 defense. The major problem with horsemen is that while they may be able to take a city, they can never hold it, and they usually outpace their defending buddies.

FYI, I re-played the game after my first submission, and got dogpiled again, although to a lesser extent as I was looking out for it. The AI was extremely aggressive in grabbing land toward us, and being in the middle of everyone, we had to defend two fronts.

CGannon, it looks like you're up. I usually retire if I'm being badly crushed, but it seems like there may still be some hope.
Perhaps a militaristic civ for us newbie warmongers next time?

ps. I just noticed that alternating players from US to Europe makes the game go pretty quickly. We ought to try to preserve that.

pps. Sultan, I'd rather be stressed during a game than bored :)

I think we should call this game quits. Even if we manage to escape this dogpile with a few cities intact, war, let alone conquest, would be impossible at that point.

You guys want to join CG5? Its emperor, but a much better Civ, IMO...

So the game is ofificially closed. Damn. What a loss. I'm depressed. My grand comeback too. :cry:

There, there, CGannon. There will be other triumphs... :thumbsup:

Originally posted by cromagnon
There, there, CGannon. There will be other triumphs... :thumbsup:

Like CG5? *Hint Hint* *Ad Ad* ;)

@Cromag= yes, the redeclare was a bad idea, furthermore, I should not have been remotely thinking about starting a second offensive during my watch, not with the successful reclaiming of all our cities from the Americans + grabbing St. Louis and the elephant trade. The fact is, I moved the last defender out of Thermopylae (to go south to prepare against Arabs) the turn before it flipped back to the Americans, totally my bad :O .

Libraries over temples? I know libraries need building, but temples sooth agitation in addition to growing borders. I am a mad pop rusher during despot ancient, always pop for all my temples and libraries in the old cities.

One unit won't make a huge difference in a flip. I'm trying to find the article where it said something to the extent of "you need 4 units for every foreign citizen" in a city.

Like I said, when you're :king:, you're the boss. You make changes as you wish, and we all learn! :goodjob:

whats this! giving up already? we coudl make a comeback! maybe. I vote we redo sultans turn. Yes it is cheating. Yes i am not liking it. But (no offense) sultan screwd up big tiem with nto lettign the war die down a bit. And if you dont midn i woudl liek to join your next sg. *sigh* i jsut hate quitting.

whats this! giving up already? we coudl make a comeback! maybe. I vote we redo sultans turn. Yes it is cheating. Yes i am not liking it. But (no offense) sultan screwd up big tiem with nto lettign the war die down a bit. And if you dont midn i woudl liek to join your next sg. *sigh* i jsut hate quitting.
Widdowmaker, you have a great deal to learn about Succession Games and etiquette. I can not find a single SG in recent history where one of the players was told he "screwd up big tiem." There are more subtle and humble ways of suggesting that things could have been played better. Also, part of succession games is that you accept other people for all their glory, luck, and faults. There really is no such thing as "replaying someone's turn," because then it's not a succession game.

My suggestion to you, given your limited playing experience, is to play a couple of Monarch or Emperor games on your own to get a feel for what the games are like, because they are totally different from Chieftan or Regent games. Gone are the days of being the world leader and the tech king from the start. As many others have noted to you in other threads, it's just not the same game.

If you really want to play a succession game, start one yourself at whatever difficulty level you feel will give you a challenge. I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers on the forum who would love to play a Regent or Monarch game, if one opened up.

A couple things I want to add:

- Our starting position was bad: disease that drops the population of Athens at the start is killing: not being able to build settlers and have your empire expand. The iron was nice, but too late to recover fully...

- Greece is a GREAT civ. Hoplite has the best defence in the ancient times. Commercial is great and scientific also has nice advantages. That wasn't our problem imho.

- The library has the same cultural effects as temple and also boosts research. Scientific civs build libraries cheaper. Therefore scientific civs are better of building libraries. Unless they're religious as well...

- You can also win by conquest with a peaceful start. It might have been best to peacefully keep up with the AI first (very possible at monarch, I usually am 1st or 2nd after the ancient times) and go to war starting with knights...

- Monarch is a level on which you still can outresearch the AI. Key is to trade and keep up at the start (Great Library helps a LOT!) and get ahead in the middle ages.

- Emperor sounds like a very big challenge for people that just lost a monarch game...... :(

- I also think that the culture is important. But I choose to have the following situation: one or two cities working as a settler factory (building settler all the time). These cities start with a granary for growth. Other cities can first build a defence, then a worker and then start improvements, like granaries and temples. I feel that the temples/libraries are especially important at the border of the empire.

I like to join CG5! My only question is: are WE ready for emperor?

ok I downloaded this game just to see how hopeless the situation is and make some comments.

Firstly, I think Sultan is being too hard on himself. The game was not in a strong position; it was not his fault that things went sour on his watch. A succession game is played by a team. You win as a team or lose as a team. You can't replay someone's turn anymore than the Lakers can get Kobe Bryant to shoot Shaquille O'Neal's free throws for him.

I think you guys should have stuck it out to the bitter end. I played a few turns from your game, and knights vs ancient age units isn't pretty, but I did survive until Lincoln was willing to talk without losing any more cities.

I don't think your starting position was bad. Any starting position which is on fresh water and has potential to get more than 2 food per turn per tile under despotism is a good starting position. Disease isn't nice, but the floodplains food bonus more than makes up for it. With bonus grassland, a wheat tile, and iron nearby, the starting position is a strong one.

The Greeks are a great civilization. They have strong traits and a good unique unit.

You guys didn't develop well enough. There were still flood plains near the capital that weren't irrigated in the latest save. This should have all been done before 2000BC. The first thing you have to get going in a game is your food base. Food means population, population means power.

What's more, a granary in Athens should have been its first improvement; likely before the first settler. In the save game, Athens is a size 8 city. It should have been sitting as a size 12 powerhouse for ages by that point.

If a granary had been built in Athens, and the floodplains irrigated, it could have pumped out many settlers during the age of expansion, then shot straight up to size 12 before construction, should have had a library built in it exploiting the scientific trait, which would have guaranteed you guys a strong research base.

With the hills near Athens, after the government change, it would have a very strong production base too, being able to churn out a swordsman every 2 turns.

I saw a comment about lack of temples. Unless people are unhappy, forget about temples. You guys are scientific! Scientific civilizations get cheap libraries, and you're struggling for research. Libraries also produce more culture than temples.

Also, you guys switched to monarchy. Monarchy isn't a good form of government, even if you fight alot. See GM1; we're almost at war there, and yet we're in Republic and doing well. The benefits of Republic over Monarchy are immense.

I hope you guys don't mind my unsolicited advice. I'm considering starting a training day game sometime soon; any of you would be welcome to join...

-Sirp.

Hi Sirp! Your unsolicited comments are greatly appreciated, and well-noted. I agree with all your points, but I made a conscious decision not to build a granary in Athens. My thinking was "Athens has plenty of food; it needs shields, not growth." I figured, what's the point of growing if you can't produce anything and everyone's unhappy? We should have used the Lux slider bar to keep people happy until luxuries were hooked up.

Thanks for looking into the game, and I would greatly appreciate any help from you or others in the future. And thanks for the invitation too!

Sirp, I also want to thank you. Great tips!

What I meant with bad starting position was that we weren't able to produce a lot of shields from the start and in the early game we had a disease, which slowed down growth. Overall it wasn't too bad. I agree...

Hey guys just checking in.

I don't think I'm being too hard on myself- because the fact is, I had us in a position where we had regrown a bit and vastly improved with the capture of St. Louis' two ivories, and I went overboard. The flip of Thermopylae sucked, maybe it wasn't my fault but I don't think it was a coincidence that it happened immediately after I moved the last defender out. Regardless, even with that flip, thermopylae was no where near as important as St. Louis, I should have been happy, done what I could to advance us to Feudalism (it could have been bought if I wasn't trying to bribe off Japan and the Celts, I'm sure of it) and built reinforcing defenders in the towns I did have.

I'm tempted to play the turn from its begining and try that approach.

Temple vs. Library- I just don't see it as "either/or"; temple is necessary to keep discipline and library to advance research- which we had turned off entirely. Maybe I don't know how to play Monarch well (in fact, that's a given) but I am sure I wouldn't ignore temple building and jump ahead to library. Otherwise when you need cathedrals you have to go back to temple?

I too would have preferred avoiding Monarchy altogether which I always do in my games. I would have preferred maximum idiot setting (show all moves, ask before building, show all shields and food, all pop ups please).

This was my first succession game and I enjoyed the need for recording turns, it has me thinking about ways to make it more thorough. On the other hand, I was not so good about reading thru all the details of the other players' turns, something I would want to do in the future to see how things got the way they did.

Thanks everyone.

It's all one great learning experience. What I've noticed from reading the SG's of more advanced players is that they use the luxury slider extensively to deal with unhappiness, rather than temples. While I agree with you that temple and library would have been great, we did need to expand quickly, as Egypt and America were so near. And as far as cathedrals go, by the time you need cathedrals (large cities), you can build a temple pretty quickly, so it's not a huge difference.

Your point about Monarchy should be rephrased: would you rather be in Monarchy or Despotism during your golden age (because they occurred nearly simultaneously). I'm no fan of Monarchy either, but it's better than Despotism (yes, there are times when pop rushing is useful). Unfortunately, Republic wasn't available to us.

I too enjoy recording what I do (and think) in the hopes that other players and lurkers will point out flaws in my thought process. Such constructive criticism is always welcomed by me!

It was fun having you, SB, and hopefully we can see you soon in another game.

If the snow keeps up in the Blue Ridge, my trip will be off and it will be real soon!

Some more unsolicited comments/advice:

- Definitely use the luxury slider early in the game. There's basically no excuse for any specialists in the first 50 turns of the game. Getting the extra food/shields is of paramount importance.

- Getting the tech to get pikes wouldn't have helped. Hoplites are already 1/3/1, just like pikes, and cost less shields.

- I think it's extremely important to play out a loss (or two or three) to the bitter end. Reading reports of some of the "greats" in the SG scene (Sullla, Sirian, myself (if I may say so), Zed-F, etc.), we've ALL played out games we thought were hopeless. You learn so much more that way than in games where you're perpetually ahead or even. You also learn that situations that seem hopeless often aren't....

- Sultan, feel free to use Cntl-P and change the settings. One of the beauties of SGs is that you can customize to your own settings, see what others do, maybe learn something along the way, etc. Just because the person before doesn't have, e.g. zoom to disorder, set, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

- Early game revolts, especially in your capital, are very expensive. Preventing those can be worth an awful lot of units/shields/cities later, as the exponential effect of the game takes hold. Watch your capital, especially, like a hawk.

- There is almost never such a thing as too much population. Early, your capital seemed to always be size 1-4, which means that it could either get food or shields but not both. If it had a granary and was properly managed, it could've bounced between size 4 and 6, growing rapidly and having shields. You could've produced an extra dozen warriors, probably, to go along with the same number of settlers. People = power! "Plenty of food", BTW, to me means 7 extra fpt (growing every 3 turns without a granary under size 7). I don't think Athens had that....

- Temples are not necessary. Nor are they necessarily bad. You can win with them or without them. Just thought I'd point that out. But if they're important for your style, start them and/or comment on why you think they're needed. Team play and all.... :)

- Jungle, on the other hand, is quite good. Not settling the jungle is pure :smoke:, IMO. Under that jungle is VERY good land. Yes, it takes time to develop, but if you never get started, you'll never finish either. Plus, coal and rubber make jungle lands very attractive.

- Don't waste squares close to your capital. Your dot maps were ... distinctly sub-optimal, IMO. Yes, taking into account fresh water and luxuries is important, but so is planning for maximal efficiency of your land. The whole point of a dot map, for me, at least, is to see how my current top-choice city location might or might not fit into an overall scheme of having a very productive core of cities.... In that regard, I think the one dot map I saw here was not fully-developed.

- No one player is ever fully responsible for a SG loss, IMO. I can imagine it happening (blatantly giving away all your cities, self-destructing all your units, etc.), but it's certainly not the case here. I recommend not beating yourself up. [Of course, I don't really consider this an SG loss, just an abandoned game...see my earlier point about "the bitter end"]

I'm sure I could say more, but this was what came to mind immediately....

Arathorn

These are awesome advices guys, makes it worth doing, even more.

Arathorn, I think I will try to play it out to the end as per your good advice. I just hate games where they don't finish you off!

*As for Hoplites being the best defender of the ancient age, I'd have to say that Numidian Mercenary seems better in my mind.

I don't see library/temple as 'either/or' either. However, what I was saying is that you were lamenting a lack of temples, apparently due to the lack of culture you had without them. My point is that since you're scientific, libraries are cheaper than temples, provide more culture than temples, and usually have a higher benefit than temples.

Sure, you build temples at some point, but when you want your initial border expansion, you use libraries to get you there if you're scientific, since they almost always have better cost/benefit than temples.

If you're not scientific, then temples are cheaper, and they will take over as your first preference for border expansion. If you're religious, then you'll get true bargain temples.

I usually build temples in most cities, even as a scientific civilization, but only when I really need to. Cathedrals aren't always needed, it depends how many luxuries you have. As for colloseums, they are a dubious investment indeed.

Oh and yes, I hate intense micro-management and keeping every city out of civil disorder as much as the next guy, but, when you're real small, civil disorder really bites. If you just have your capital, and your city goes into disorder, then you've essentially just lost one turn to all your rivals. Once you start playing past Regent, you're already behind the game from the start, you don't want to get further behind.

I can understand your reasoning behind not building a granary in Athens. However, I do think it's still a mistake. Even on a high food start, population/food is a major limitation on building settlers. If you build a granary, you have your capital oscillating between 4-6 population, as Arathorn mentioned, it can produce a settler incredibly fast, and you'd have settled far more land.

Your capital is by far your most valuable asset early in a game. Continually reducing it to size 1 or 2 is a big mistake: you lose out on commerce, production, and if the population is smaller than the number of bonus food tiles, you lose out on growth too.

-Sirp.

I've taken to not building my first settler until the capital is built and at least size 4, usually 5 (by then a barracks and/or temple and a defender are in place). It leads to a speedier recovery rate. I still don't always build granary in the first city, as I tend to try to use the first city to get the Great Library and the second city with granary for settlers.

Nice comments, Sirp, its good to hear someone else besides us comment on this.

I get the feeling we did resign too early. But I think its too late to restart now. Plus, I don't know if victory would be possible after our implosion, and even if it was, it would be so much work that it wouldn't be fun.

This game surprisingly hurts less than my other discontinued games. When things like CG1, 2, and 3 were stopped, I was really pissed. Why? Because we were winning, and because I really liked the variant rules on all of them. But with this one, the variant rule was pretty annoying, and we were losing. It all adds up to make this SG not much fun.

I agree that we didn't use the lux slider enough. Also, our start wasn't that bad. The problem was the dogpile, RNG, central location, basic mistakes, and slow expansion, IMO. Expansion not only inlcudes building new cites but defending them, IMO. And we certainly lacked the latter. :p

Good to see a postmortem on this game though, I'm learning alot. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I've taken to not building my first settler until the capital is built and at least size 4, usually 5 (by then a barracks and/or temple and a defender are in place). It leads to a speedier recovery rate. I still don't always build granary in the first city, as I tend to try to use the first city to get the Great Library and the second city with granary for settlers.

This reminded me on something I forgot in my post:

I noticed that, in this game, people (including myself!) didn't do my favorite expansion method: Building two defenders BEFORE the settler, and then stacking a defender with the settler, leaving one at home. I noticed that I didn't do this all that much, and obviously other people didn't because it might not be their style.

I'm just wondering what you guys think about this. Think its a good strat, or does it slow growth too much?

I've learned more from this thread than the past 8 months of lurking around the regular general forum.

EDIT: yes, I try to do that same strategy, Gannon- I've lost too many settlers to sudden barb appearances.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I've learned more from this thread than the past 8 months of lurking around the regular general forum.


:goodjob: And you'll learn more if you play in more SGs! ;)

Hint, hint. ;)

I'd love to do it, but I am leaving town tommorow afternoon, can't play till two mondays from now, and if you thought I screwed up on Monarch, you should see my talents on Emporer level!

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I'd love to do it, but I am leaving town tommorow afternoon, can't play till two mondays from now, and if you thought I screwed up on Monarch, you should see my talents on Emporer level!

Ah, don't worry about it. I understand that you are going away. I'm sure that you would be able to master Monarch and take down Emperor in a few more games though. I was in your position (starting to beat Monarch) a few weeks ago. Practice makes perfect. I also suggest reading Sirian's and Charis' reports - those pretty much shot me up from Warlord to Monarch, to be honest. :)

If you are interested, here is some yet more unsolicited advice on your game. (Although I'm sure you'd rather it hadn't happened, posting a losing succession game here draws those of us with tons of experience like bees to honey. I couldn't help myself from reading through the entire thread and trying to figure out what happened. :))

- As noted by Sirp and Arathorn, population is always to be desired in the early game. Granary is practically a necessity on a large map size; with it, you can reach the magical +5 food/turn barrier and produce a settler every 4 turns. That would have helped you out, naturally. And just so you know, whenever disease strikes it always hits on consecutive turns and takes away 2 population. You guys were not extraordinarily unlucky, in other words. :p

- Why only one warrior to scout? I use two normally, and for a large map would go with more than that. I'm curious as to what Athens was building between turns 17-39; what was going on there? If the city was stuck at one or two shields, you could always have mined a desert tile to get 2 shields from it.

- If you think riot control on Monarch is bad, try playing some games with Emperor/Deity unhappiness. ;)

- Leaving no unit whatsoever in your capital is not smart. You got sacked by barbs in the early game, OUCH! But if it had been another civ, your game would simply have ended. I learned this lesson when I played a tiny map once and started next to the Zulus. My warrior was out scouting, and the Zulus simply had a warrior walk into my capital in 3500BC - game over! More military in the early game is a good thing to have.

- From what I can see, this wasn't that bad of a starting postion. You've got floodplains for high growth, two bonus grasslands for balanced production, an iron hill for bigtime shields, and are on a river. There are three luxuries relatively close, a wheat tile to the north, and a cattle to the south. That's not so bad! The GOTM5 starting position or the RBE2 starting position - now those were BAD. Not mining the bonus grasslands at Athens early on to get some shields to go with the food coming from the floodplains was a sub-optimal move as well.

- The early game philosophy of having Athens build settlers and Sparta build military units was a very good one. Trading in the early game was solid as well. You didn't do anything wrong in those areas.

- The first dotmap is, as mentioned by Arathorn, somewhat less than ideal. The cities are spaced too far apart, and there is a great deal of land near the core going wasted. Putting Thermopylae so far away from the capital in a spot where it would be under cultural pressure as soon as it was founded was not a good move. Can't say I'm surprised that it flipped on you.

- The real problem is just that early expansion was too slow. Others have already mentioned what would have helped, but it's clear that by 1000BC you guys were well behind the 8-ball, so to speak. Losing workers and tile improvements to barbs can seriously hamper your development as a civ; more military would have been helpful to prevent this. I think that a lot of your problems went back to the first turn, where Athens didn't produce anything for a very long time. This slowed down the growth of everything in your entire civ - talk about pressure on the person who plays the first turn! :) That's why I try to let different people play the first one in my games, so that more people get that experience. It's a lot of responsibility.

- Refusing demands is an interesting issue. While no one WANTS to give in to the other civs, it's usually a good idea to do so if you are in a strategically weak position. From your game saves, that certainly would appear to have been the case when you got into "WWI". Any war can be dangerous for you if the AI civs start jumping in on you one after the other. They can sense how weak you are (since they know what units are in your cities) and won't hesitate to declare war. The best way to break up the dogpile is to sign peace with any civ that will talk to you; easier said than done, of course, but you managed this pretty well for a while.

- Generally speaking, you were too quick to attack the AI civs when in war and thus threw away a lot of units in counterattacks. The Hoplite is THE best defender in the game before the Industrial Age in terms of cost; you would have benefited much more from building a ton of hoplites and simply securing all your cities against attack. For that matter, where were the city walls? They only cost 20 shields, no maintenance, and increase the defensive bonus of your cities by a full 50%! That makes a BIG difference. Same for catapults; building some would have REALLY helped out a lot. Try looking at how the RBP5 Defiant Nationalists approached warfare when drastically outnumbered at all times for some good information on fighting wars.


As others have mentioned, there is nothing wrong with losing a game. I have always learned more from the games in which I struggled badly playing from behind or lost entirely than from the ones in which I dominated from start to finish. My favorite two games were GOTM5 (my first Monarch game) and GOTM7 (my first Deity game). Both featured rough starting positions (MUCH worse than what you had here) and relentless AI opponents crammed right into the player's face at all times. I was in last place on the histograph for 90% of both games. But I stuck around, built up my civ slowly, played it smart, and won both games in the end. As much fun as some of my more recent games have been, they have never been as sastifying as those first wins on high difficulty levels. (I have written up both games if the curious reader is interested; the link for them is here (http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/games.html).)

This game is NOT lost; I think you can play on and still win this one. Defend what you have, make peace, and then rebuild your civ. Spend the Middle Ages catching up and then use the Industrial Age to blow past your opponents in production. From there, conquest will be a long and slow process, but it could be done. I don't know whether the team is interested in such a grueling ordeal, but it's well within the range of possibility. :cool:

One thing that might benefit you is taking a look at my training day game which I ran last year - which wa