That's why they pay you the big bucks, Reagan, the weight of the decision is in your hands! :hammer:

You have a choice between "very good" and "very good". With domination as a goal going Sipali vs Pikes is really, really hard to pass up. I would go for an Abe boot and Vike smash, but even that will likely take less than 20 turns. I would definitely not trade with England and force too much peace there. Oslo is the first goal, and if we have spare turns of peace before hitting that, we can go for more. Whether to hit lizzie a bit (Oslo) or hard would depend if they had rifles by the time we were ready to strike. A chance to hit them with just muskets would be hard to pass up too. Olso and Trondheim are 'must get' cities in my mind.

A small number of univ in our very best cities certainly wouldn't hurt, as Todd suggested.

I'm not scared with England pulling ahead in tech. We get almost no benefit from slow moving rifles (MOW baby!) while I would really really hate to see France get rifles quicker. As far as I'm concerned, we've traded for all the tech we need in this game.
Printing press doesn't lead to the next era, encourages a democracy that they canNOT stay in, and sucks their excess gold away from upgrades or techs leading to nationalism (I speak of the benefit of trading PP to France and Abe)

Good luck, you'll do fine with either path!
Charis

@ Charis

You don't think Abe could stay in Democracy? He went to Monarchy because he got it first, and didn't have Republic when the revolt ended. The AI seems to consider Monarchy not worth revolting out of for Republic unless it is a religious civ (and doesn't grasp its basically a religious civ on Dieity for revolts), but will definately revolt up to Democracy at the first chance. I can't really see him losing enough units in a war "way over there" to get him draged out of it.

France got draged down into it because of war wearyness with the Vikes I'm sure. Ummmm, I did mention that huge knight SoD and those half a dozzen cavalry on their way to Scandanavia didn't I? Once the Vikes are gone, they wouldn't have a wearyness problem anymore, and would also revolt up to Democracy. France is very UNlikely to make peace with the Vikes now. AI monarchies are much more in a fight to the death posture than AI republics are in my experience, probably because they don't have to deal with wearyness issues.

When faced with a choice, France went to Monarchy to "finish the job", while England "chose wisely" and stoped with a nice wonder city.

We wouldnt be attacking France for 38-40 turns. Odds of them not getting 3 - Magnetisim, ToG, Nationalisim- techs in 40 turns is almost zip. They WILL have rifles before we hit them. So will England.

Monarchy isn't THAT bad :P

I'm not saying we need to research Nationalisim at max (if it isn't our freebie), only that we should have it in 38-40 turns because France should be actually capable of SOME counter attack (above mentioned munted units), and rifles and conscription ability should be enough we have nothing to worry about. I doubit we do anyway honestly, but why risk it? It would also be nice to have a railnet. Our UU moves fast indeed, but it never hurts to get it to the front sooner.

NOTE: It IS possible that France wouldn't have rifles in 18-20 turns if anyone thinks that should revise our thinking and hit France first. I think we should stick with the program because I wouldn't count on them not having it by then.

@ Raegan: When it comes down to it, you have to make the best choices you can based on the flow of the game. We can suggest what we would do first turn in your position, and what we would LIKELY do ASSUMING things played out as we expected, but only you know how things are ACTUALLY going. You don't ALLWAYS have to stick with the program if you see a better opportunity.

Example: My first SG turn ever, the preturn concensus was if we got a leader, use it to make a Gallic army. Well, I ALMOST did, even moved him almost into one of our cities to form it, but suddenly we got peace with EVERYONE, and it suddenly occured that the city I had extracted him from was a NEAR PERFECT site for the FP, so sent him back there and I rushed it instead.

Also, we were doing min science towards Republic with like 13 turns to go, and the concensus was we wouldn't buy it since it was close to in. But I saw an opportunity to get a HUGE discount for it for peace (I think, or possible it was a tech deal), and we were in our GA, and religious so a 1 turn Anarchy and like 1/3 of our GA in Republic possible, so I deviated from the program and took the deal.

I was worried what everyone would think about me deviating from the plan, but everyone was like, yeah, nice going! As long as you play the situation at hand, and don't make any TERRIBLE decisions, no one is going to be upset. Just do your best :)

(0) 550 AD – City review: Hopelessly corrupt Ankara swaps to a worker. Pompeii swaps to worker. Izmit will rush its university in two steps. Ravenna shaves one turn off its marketplace build with a partial rush. Zaragoza gets more food added to its diet, swaps to worker production, and contributes a scientist to our cause. Kafa and Sinop keep building settlers, but not to found new cities. Instead, we’ll add them to our core cities, some of which are woefully behind in population growth. We’ll have the wines and spices online in the early turns of our war with France and have no need for them right now. Diplo efforts: Swap WM around for 45gp. Military: upgrade Hippo’s knight to assist homeland defense. Upgrade Salmanca’s knight, as well as the 1 hp knight in Toledo (which restores him to full health). We have warriors in some cities. If anyone got frisky and dropped a couple of units into our main core via boat, we’d have a really tough time defending ourselves. I’m going to leave him and a few more sipahi back home for protection. Moving our troops into position to attack America reveals two knights and a sword just outside Zaragosa. Rather than dance around with them or leave troops behind for protection, I go ahead and cancel our existing deals with America and declare war. The American troops are in perfect place for us to stage for an attack on Stockholm next turn and Santiago two turns later. Two knights, one sword, and one MDI later, our troops are poised outside of Stockholm. I turn the “always build previously built unit” option on because I think we’re going to be primarily producing sipahi for the rest of the game.

IT – Ragnar offers to renew peace. There’s no choice – either take it and wait twenty turns to attack or declare war now. We’re out of his territory and have no deals with him, so we declare war. France wants to renew our RoP, so we do so. The cheese eatin’ surrender monkeys are moving a lot of troops into Viking territory.

(1) 560 AD – Printing Press completes and we swap to Magnetism, due in 40. Carthage: univ->sipahi. Ditto for Adana and Pisae. Pompeii: worker->worker. We defeat Stockholm’s lone spear and take the city. We whack the lone ‘zerker that came out of Copenhagen IT. Joan MAs with us against the Vikes and kicks in 40gp as a bonus. Unfortunately, she instructs her troops to block the road outside Toledo, slowing us down by a turn. France blocking military action? Never!

IT – nada, ‘cept France is moving troops towards Copenhagen, too. English start Newton’s and Mag’s.

(2) 570 AD – Edrine, Iznik, and Izmit: univ->sipahi. Antium: univ->rax. Hippo: market->duct. Uskudar: sipahi->sipahi. Konya: market->sipahi. Add a “right wing” to the palace. Our troops are ready to hit both Copenhagen and Santiago next turn.

IT – Copenhagen’s mighty pike holds against the French attack. Unfortunately, the :saiyan: French troops block our progress yet again.

(3) 580 AD – Rome: market->sipahi. Utica: harbor->sipahi. Thveste: rax->sipahi (see a trend here?). Sabratha: duct->rax. Thankfully, our troops have three movement points and can reach Copenhagen from their Santiago staging area. After losing a vet to a steroid-enhanced pike, we sweep the city clean and capture the Hanging Gardens. Copenhagen begins a library. Now it’s our turn to block the French, as I move some troops so that we’ll have the sole shot at Aarhus next turn. Santiago falls without a whimper and promotes our attacker to elite! Lizzie now has both ToG and Magnetism. Magnetism research dialed up so it’s due in three turns.

IT - America lands a motley force of three units next to Santiago. The French quit their bumbling and leave us a clear path to Aarhus, which frees up troops to hit the American landing party.

(4) 590 AD – Antium: rax->sipahi. Leptis Minor: market->duct. The palace’s right wing gets a breezeway. Our troops lose a total of one hit point wiping out the Americans. We lose one sipahi while taking Aarhus (with the rax intact) but promote another to elite. Abe will make peace, which is fine. He wants 59gpt to swap luxuries, though, so I pass (we don’t need any more).

(5) 600 AD – Ravenna: market->duct. Joan has . . . Magnetism (d’oh!). I don’t see any need to give her PP just to get it one turn earlier, so I pass. We stay one step ahead of Joanie and take Stavanger (with its rax) with no losses.

IT – Vikes send a musket (!!!) out of Trondheim to defeat a 1hp French knight.

(6) 610 AD – Magnetism comes through and we start ToG. Veii: market->sipahi. Cumae: market->sipahi. Sabratha: rax->sipahi. Aydin: bank->courthouse. Bursa: Mag’s-> courthouse. Seven sipahi are outside Trondheim, but the French have troops there, too.

IT – grrrrr. I hate the French! They take Trondheim with their last longbow. :(

(7) 620 AD – Neapolis: rax->worker. Ravenna: duct->sipahi. Our troops are now outside of Bergen, but so are the French.

IT – Did I really say I hate the French? Well, I :love: the French. They throw some cavs at Bergen, kill all but one of its muskets, then run out of gas. :)

(8) 630 AD – Bursa: courthouse->sipahi. Vikings? Who dat? Bergen is ours and Ragnar’s ugly mug departs from the diplo screen.

(9) 640 AD – ToG comes through, we get Steam Power!, and Newton’s is built in Istanbul. Nationalism, which <gulp> England already has, research begins at lone scientist. Our new cities complete libraries and begin muskets (to free their sipahi). Aydin: courthouse->sipahi. Oh by the way, Maniac’s Minstrels strike up the band – check out the map to see why. [dance] :band: [dance]

(10) 650 AD – Sabratha: courthouse->sipahi.

I’m too tired to give much forward looking analysis at this point. :sleep: Just be sure our scientist stays in place despite the worker building, as the workers in the south complete their tasks we need to build our military railnet as quickly and efficiently as possible before building other rails, and get us in a good position to take on Lizzie before she gets a bunch of rifles. We have several sipahi ready to move across France, but I kept them home for a few extra turns in case Joanie got frisky. We need some more near Oslo, too, it appears. We should MA with both France and America when we declare on England, IMHO. That is especially true for Joanie, who is annoyed with us and who has a lot of units circling in Trondheim like hungry sharks looking for a meal. I did not give a hard scrubbing to the worker allocation in our cities this last turn, so you might want to micromanage before continuing.

Good luck and have fun, Ridgelake!

P.S. Now that we have some science improvements and a more edge-u-ma-cated populace, can we please start properly spelling the name of our wonderful civ’s unique unit?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-660AD.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/mow660ad.jpg

I see it and will try to at least get started tonight.

Ooooo....the picture just came in..about a minute after the thread loaded. Let the minstrels play on! :dance:

Charis: how about that oft-overlooked benefit of Nationalism -- mobilization? If you're nearly done the game, mobilizing would be a good way to finish it off. Rails + mobilization would be as good as or better than rails + factories, requires less tech (at least if you get the usual nationalism freebie) and doesn't require an infra build period. Rails + factories + coal plants + mobilization would be even better, of course, esp. if your economy lets you rush some of them.

Poor Ridgelake doesn't get to do anything but sit on his hands and build up military for 8 turns? This is horrible! He doesn't get to feel the power of the MOWer humming in his hands? I would pity the poor AI that feels his anger on the ninth and tenth turn. Maybe if he stands on the border and makes silly gestures at them the English ground troops will loose their heads and attack. We can only hope!

That's a great point, Zed. We're very close to the point of having no need for more infrastructure in our core. I've never mobilized before, so this may be a dumb question, but wouldn't it preclude us from building cultural buildings (e.g., a library) in the cities we conquer? If so, that'll make it impossible to expand our borders until we make peace. Of course, if we choose the conquest route we can just raze the opposition's cities instead of keeping them. :hammer:

Edit: Also, through the use of interim rushing, we can shave a few turns off the sipahi builds in our core cities before we build factories and/or mobilize. We certainly have the cash to do a measured amount of such rushing.

Mobilization is a great tool for warmongers. It gives you the boost to militery builds and it allows you to build some non-military units (settlers, workers, but not at expanded rates). You cannot build any culture buildings and are restricted on the wonders you can build as well. I usually pause my warmongering about here to grab ToE Hoover's and installl factories befroe I mobilize and finish things off.

Warning, be carefull not to exploit the bug.

I will go find the mobilization thread and post the link here for all to ponder.

Catt's Fundamentals of Mobilization Revealed (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_mobilization.shtml)

About mobilization:
I've noticed a bad bug: if, when mobilized, you build an allowed project that doesn't yield the shield bonus (eg, a worker), then that city won't get the shield bonus back during that period of mobilization.
What's the exploitable bug you're mentionning, Meldor? The possibility of using mobilization time production to accelerate a project not allowed during mobilization?

Originally posted by Arutha
About mobilization:
I've noticed a bad bug: if, when mobilized, you build an allowed project that doesn't yield the shield bonus (eg, a worker), then that city won't get the shield bonus back during that period of mobilization.
What's the exploitable bug you're mentionning, Meldor? The possibility of using mobilization time production to accelerate a project not allowed during mobilization? It allows you to get infinite shields from any city. One must actually be careful not to exploit it. If you want the details, go to the bug reports.

Well done, Reagan :hammer:
Hoorah for Steam Power, too :P

Wow, Abe sure did come to the table quickly.
It's too bad Nationalism is 40 turns off. If we had it now we could mobilize during these 8 'waiting turns', hammer England quick and hard, and when we take peace, we pop out of mobilization. Then rush a library or temple in each captured city, queue up any other non-military item, then remobilize towards France. You de-mobilize anytime you come to peace with anyone, not just when you 'have no wars going on'.

I can't see the map right now, and why the minstrels are playing. My only concern was that France has Trondheim, instead of us.

One other off the wall concern. What if there is a large sea-only island out there? It would throw off our view of how much land is needed for domination. So when the AI starts to travel the seas, be ready to buy their maps (for cash, no more gpt deals without extremely good reason)

One minor point, Reagan... you said that the Viking peace was cancelled "IT." It's a *really* bad idea to let that happen, and totally unnecessary. It gives the AI first attack for free, and put us 'one turn behind' in a war where we then got pushed further behind the troops of France. When a peace treaty gets ready to expire, in "existing deals" it counts down (3), (2), (1) then there is one turn with no duration listed. THAT turn YOU must act! If you plan to let the peace continue, you have to do it on your turn to demand any concessions (ie if they are a less powerful nation.) If you plan to return to war, do it on your turn so that you can be SURE you have no units in their territory, so that you can get an alliance if needed, and not to let the AI get first attack or have a free round to rush defenders or move units into position.

So keep a close eye out when peace deals expire and don't let them ride to 'in between turns'. That's just an FYI, you had a great round :D

Charis

The minstrels are playing because we can build the Iron Works in Edrine (our Forbidden Palace city). It's due in six more turns.

We have enough Golden Age-powered income to research Nationalism at a pretty good clip. We won't have it in four turns, but we'll likely have it before we go to war with England if we want to cut off our cash flow. I can see some value to doing that, but see a lot of value skimming turns off our sipahi builds with our cash and being able to build factories as soon as Industrialization comes in. Those aren't mutually exclusive, however, if our England war is expected to be short. Let's not underestimate the defense value of rifles (or muskets for that matter) when we think about how quickly we'll be through with England.

Thanks for the heads-up about the peace deal expiration. I understand how the countdown works regarding deals but was under the impression that, like with RoP deals, the AI will sometimes allow a deal to stay in place even after it expires. I recognized that the deal had no "turns" left on it but (mistakenly?) thought there was a possibility that the deal would remain in place. In any event, I am certain that it had no impact on the timing of our acquisition (or lack thereof) of any Viking cities. France already had troops deep into Viking territory (they were already at war when I inherited the game) and were at least one step ahead of us. We were really lucky to get what we did from the Vikes, actually, because France had such a head start.

RBC6-mow Ridgelake III

660AD (0) Spend about an hour looking over the map and talking to the advisors. We have 7 turns left on our deals with England. So I need to arrange the onslaught of England at that time. I trade TMs with England to get the latest road info. With our ROP with France, we can cut off the north half from the bottom half the first turn. Pillaging their horses on the first turn should also kill their cav making ability. Cant do anything about their rifles, though.

Rush libraries in Bergin, Aarhus, and Stravanger so that we can rush muskets in a couple turns to free up our Saps.

Oslo has 6 units outside the city. Not sure (yet) how many are inside. We will need at least 10 to attack it.

MM a bit. Zaragoza will starve down and make a settler to move over a space to get wines………

The 8 Saps outside of Neapolis are sent to the Hastings area

Wake a ton of workers who were chopping jungle and get them ready to rail.

IT Renew our spice deal with France for furs plus 27gpt. Abe moves a caravel outside Stockholm.

670AD (1) build railnet. Move Saps over towards England.

680AD (2) Buy a couple workers from France.

690AD (3) Rush a few muskets in our southern cities to free up more Saps for Oslo.

700AD (4) zzzzzzzzzzz

710AD (5) Lizzie shows up with Steam. Rush buy a few Saps so that they can move into position on turn 7. Military railnet is close to complete. Wines hooked up outside of Seville.

720AD (6) WLSD starts in a number of cities from the new wines. Ironworks completes. Without much help from rails, Edrine can now pump 75spt.

Investigate Oslo. It has 1 rifle, 2 muskets, a cannon.
Investigate Warwick. Same defenses. England has 1 coal, salt, iron and 2 horses. They have 7 lux, only 1, except 2 wines.
Investigate Oxford: 3 muskets, and they are on a hill.
Norwich is not worth investiaging. It has a spear showing.

We have 28 Saps ready to hit Northern England from the South and 4 more from the North. 16 Saps are about to hit Oslo.

IT Joanie demands dyes….I give it to her.

730AD (7) Cancel all agreements with Lizzie. Her response, “Three Words: Increase Your Medication”. :lol:

Declare war. Here comes some medication, Lizzie! :hammer:

Dial up Joanie. She joins in for some gems.
Dial up Abe. He joins in for furs and dyes.

Attack on Oslo:
Sap v rifle. Cannon misses, 1 damage, retreat.
Sap v rifle. 2 damage, retreat.
Maniac Marshall Sap kills rifle without a scratch!
Sap v musket. Dead musket w/ 2 damage.
Sap v 2/4 rifle. Dead rifle w/ 2 damage.
Sap v cav. Dead cav, and we take OSLO AND SUN TZU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [dance]

Clean up 6 cavs, and longbow, losing 2 Saps. Leaderfish on the longbow, but none.

Leaderfish on a 1hp cav and we get SULEYMAN RIDGELAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [dance]

Attack on Norwich.
Sap take damage from catapult, kills spear.
Sap kill next spear and we collect Norwich. Capture 2 workers.

Sap SoD moves to Warwick.

Question is whether to make an army with leader or use it to rush Suffrage after some research. It can be had in 5 turn @ -63gpt. Time for Sultan Ridgelake to go to sleep. To be Continued Tomorrow.
:)

Looks like a really nice Turn Raegan. :). It's a shame we got the Hanging Gardens just in time for it to expire :lol:.

Did we not bring England into the Viking war? Probably makes no diffrence but it might have slowed their research rate just a tad.

About deal expiration: The AI WILL continue to allow a deal to keep going turn after turn w/o renegotiation as long as the deal is still in their favor.

Aparently France felt that it wasn't worth 1gpt for RoP on the one, and the reason the Vikes renegotiated peace is that we were getting 15gpt for peace.

I believe the AI allways renegotiates all peace deals where they gave you anything, even a lum sum or tech.

I haven't seen the save yet, but I would suggest the following as a possible alternative to the England war (i'm not saying it is the best, I'm saying its something to consider):

Get Nationalisim at best pace. France wont take 28 turns to get Nationalisim (Monarchy = Lame but not THAT bad), but probably WONT have it in 8 turns.

Rush any culture buildings needed NOW. When Nationalisim comes in, upgrade our boarder guards to rifles as much as possbile and draft some conscripts where possible, then mobilize and declare war on France. Drag England and America into the war wither via MA or MPP, whichever is better.

After Nationalisim, I wouldn't bother to research any more if we really do plan to cripple England. We are going to need that money to rush rifles.

What about domination you say? Ah, thats the beauty of it. We wont trigger it if we don't rush libraries :). Once France is gone, we can demobilze, rush our libraries and take on England (with our American buddies. Obviously we would NOT mobilize for this war because we WOULD want to rush libraries.

I really think a French or English war wont be the same kinda cake walk every other war has been for us. Going after France NOW would let us take on muskets instead of Rifles. They seem to have watched us and grasped the concept of MOW too. No one else we fought, NO ONE, had a single mounted unit if i recall. I know I saw none.

Did anyone but me even see any enemy unit attack a city of ours? I had two longbows counter attack Veii. We have gotten by so far with pitiful home defense because our speed advantage has kpet the war entirely on enemy turf and allowed us to do almost all the counter attacking.

I really don't think we have too much to worry about with EITHER plan as long as we don't get cocky.

We don't have to go with this plan, but it is something to consider.

Edit: Hmmmmmmmm. Never mind any of this now lol. Seems I was quite a bit tardy posting this idea (one that only just occured).

Wow, looks like you are really giving the :hammer: to England. Hope Lizzie is researching Communisim :lol:.

Take good care of that Maniac Marshall unit. It has a special place in my heart :).

I take it we didn't get Nationalisim yet? I really wish we would get that tech soon......

I vote Make an Army. I wouldn't worry about Sufferage. We still have the other Army right? Once we get a 3rd one we can build the Pentagon in Erdine.

Maybe I was wrong about the English not being a cakewalk.

If we are going to capture English cities rather than raze/replace, don't forget to starve them. These cities are a serious flip risk for us, unlike Rome, Spain, and the Vikes cities were. We could also use that leader to move the palace somewhere to help fight flips as an option, though it's getting kinda late in the game for that now methinks.

I vote to use the leader for an army, then build another army with the academy, then build the Pentagon. We'll need four-unit armies to take some larger cities because we don't have the benefit of artillery support.

I agree with Todd that it's too late in the game to think about swapping our palace location. With rails and a pangea map, we'll have troops to the front lines in the first turn or two after they are created and we'll be in a position to re-take cities that flip.

Todd, I had a similar thought to yours. Attack France now while they don't have rifles. I went against that for several reasons:

1) We needed a real war against England. Hitting France and taking a lot of it may well push us to domination.

2) France DOES have a powerful military right now. My hope is that they will burn a lot of units on attacking mainland England.

3) I really like the idea of hitting France from several directions at once. This will be a lot easier to do with us holding Northern England.

4) England was the tech leader and was in republic. They are now in a world of hurt for luxuries (only 1 native, I think) and there is almost no way they could stay in republic while getting hammered on the war front. This will kill the tech pace.

On the army vs suffrage debate. Having slept on it, I think going for suffrage may be the better move. Not necessarily for Suffrage, but for industrialization and factories. Our ROP with France expires in 2 turns. We will need to renew it to support our English war. Thus, we cant hit France for 22 more turns, realistically. This would give us enough time to build factories in all of our major cities. I think we will be able to extract Nationalism from England after this war. So when we hit France in 22, we will have both mobilization and factories to produce Saps.

With the military academy about to finish, we can also produce our own armies. So we have another source for those.

Thinking a bit further, getting both factories and another army is not mutually exclusive. There is nothing to say that we cant research industrialization and still produce an army with the leader. I think that we should at least research ind. The debate is suffrage vs 1 extra army and some turns shaved off the pentagon.........

I think its getting kinda late in the game for industrialization myself. By the time we build those factories, well never get the build cost back out of them I'd think, or only just, and it would delay reinforcements for a while.

By the time we get arround to attacking france, I'd suggest we just raze/repleace their core while taking their colonies. With a railnet, we should be able to get settlers right where we need them quick.

Originally posted by Ridgelake
1) We needed a real war against England. Hitting France and taking a lot of it may well push us to domination.



:confused:
This is a confused lurker. I don't understand the worry about hitting France and domination. Is there something about this variant that forces you to play the game longer then needed?

@LKtender:

Style points. Cf first page.

Lee, we need to take at least one city from every opponent, and hadn't taken one from either England or France till now. We are now walking through France via RoP to take out the only remeaining research power which is England (they also had a colony with Sun Tsu's in it we wanted).

Problem was, if we had hit France first, we might have hit domination (highly doubitful if we had held off rushing libraries) before we could take one of Englands cities. So the plan is, hit England hard for 20 turns, then turn arround and ally with England against France. Once we take one of those French cities, we can do whatever we want the rest of the game as far as who we war on.

Edit: Annother reason I'd vote for the Army, especially if we are going to be able to cripple Englands research, is that if things get bad enough on the happynes front, WE can allways drop to Monarchy to finish it. This is a last resort of course.

Also, don't forget, It is rapidly nearing the point in the game where our rep will no longer matter. The only commodity we need to import is Abe's silks. As long as we didn't take tech or Cities for them, peace treaties can be broken. Hopefully we wont need to worry about this, and can just eliminate Lizzie from the map in 20 turns of war.

Originally posted by ToddMarshall
I think its getting kinda late in the game for industrialization myself. By the time we build those factories, well never get the build cost back out of them I'd think, or only just, and it would delay reinforcements for a while.

Todd, I think selective factories would be a big help. Edrine, for instance, may well get to 100spt with factories giving us a Sap per turn versus one every 2. I doubt that it would take long for similar turn jumps in other cities (1/2 from say 1/3) to pay for themselves in terms of the overall shield cost of factories....

I am basicially trying to think in terms of 100 shield increments, the cost of our Saps. With mobilization approximating GA in terms of shield production, we should be able to get a pretty good handle on which cities will get the best benefit from factories. In terms of # of turns per Sapahi. These numbers will change a bit when the production bonus of rails kick in, but we can still get an idea.

@ Ridgelake - You may be right. I don't really know the city situation since my last turn, and that makes it hard to judge because production was inflated by the GA, and I didn't have rails. My thought was that it would be 5 turns worth of income spent we could have used to rush things, and that most of our cities would spend too long building a factory to make it back, but if you could make signifigant jumps in time in a number of cities such as Erdine, then yes, it would be worth it.

Well, we can add some figures to the calculations.

It will take about 4000 - 4500 gold to research Ind.

IIRC, it is 5 gold per shield for rushing. So this translates to 8 or 9 Saps.

Factories are 240 shields to make, according to the information here. This is 3 turns for Edrine to build with a touch of rail help. Or 1.5 Saps. So it would take Edrine, alone, only about 20 turns of building 1 Sap/turn to make up the 10 Saps that were "cost" to get us here. Will this game go for 20 more turns? I think so. And this analysis has not considered improvements in our other big shield producers.

Sounds good to me. The real reason it will make it worth it is because Erdine can reach 100 shields, doubling its production rate.

If this game doesn't go 20 more turns i'll be REALLY impressed with Charis and CB :lol:

Edit:

Our ROP with France expires in 2 turns. We will need to renew it to support our English war. Thus, we cant hit France for 22 more turns, realistically.

Actually, if England crumbles and dies first, we can as long as we make sure to move all units out of france first to avoid RoP Rape.

If England is dead, or virtually so, our rep won't mean squat, and it isn't an exploit to declare war on somone you have an RoP with as long as you don't have units in thir territory.

It is unlikely that England will crumble fast enough to make it worth considering, but that is out there.

Let's try the problem from a slightly different direction:

Cost of research 4500 Turns 6
Cost of factory (rushed) 1200 Turns 1
Total cost 5700 Turns 7

Cost for rush builing 12 Saphs 6000 Turns 12

We can build 3 saphs naturally while the research is continuing so in the same twelve turns, we would only be down 4 saphs which would then take us another 6 turns to make up. Leaving us at the 18 turn point with 15 saphs either way.

The question would be how many cities do we spread the cost of the research across. If we had three cities that could reach 100 shields with rails and factories and mobilization then the figures would be as follows:

Cost of research 1500 Turns 6
Cost of factory (rushed) 1200 Turns 1
Total cost 2700 Turns 7

Cost for rush builing 6 Saphs 3000 Turns 6

We could again build 3 saphs during the research leaving us at the end of 8 turns only 3 saphs down which would take 5 turns to catch up. At the end of 13 turns we would have 10 saphs either way.

If the city goes from 1/3 to 1/2 then we would be down 4 saphs coming out of the seven turns and it would take us 24 to make it up leaving us at turn 31 with 14 saphs either way.

However we slice it, it doesn't look like it would be worth it unless we could pull 100 shileds in at least 3 cities. I think Edrine is the only city that has a hope of this unless we get hospitals a nd a lot of rapid growth.

Rush US and build two armies would be my suggestion. It really shouldn't take more than 40 turns to finish this one off.

Meldor,

Your analysis is a good one, capitalizing on the conversion rate of 5 gold per shield. But I think that another way of interpreting your results shows that it would be beneficial.

Applying the total research cost to Edrine shows that the break even time is 18 turns. After that, we are better off with the factories. With this game expecting to go more than 18, it is worthwhile. All by itself with no consideration of other cities.

Since the reasearch has been fully allocated to Edrine, the other major producers, Istanbul and Bursa, should not bear that cost in their analysis as well. It really comes down to a straight payback analysis on the factory cost alone. That analysis would be like this: 2.4 Saps to rushbuild the factory (1200g). Moving from 1/3 to 1/2 gains an additional unit every 6 turns. Six times 2.4 is 14 to 15 turns. The payback period is 15 turns going from 1/3 to 1/2 and the research cost allocated to Edrine.

Now lets look at going from 1/4 to 1/3. This increase gets an extra Sap every 12 turns. So double the payback time from the above analysis to 30 turns.

Overall, at least 3 cities benefit in less than 20 turns with the research cost allocated. Therefore, I think we should do it.

A couple of other items pop to mind: 1) We have not considered the effect of coal plants. 2) I found a flaw in the logic of my previous analysis in that I was assuming GA/mobilization production for Edrine to build its factory. Our GA won't last too much longer, so the high-production period wont last too much longer. I suppose we could use a palace pre-build starting in a turn or two to get Edrine's factory online the same time as Ind comes on board. But regardless, I may have underestimated the factory production time with the GA expiring. I still think that we should be able to reach 100spt when not in GA, however.

(Lurker FYI) The cost of rushing is only 4 gold per shield (/Lurker FYI)

Bah, this is a sign of how totally we are kicking AI but in this game when we are arguing about if it is worth researching Industrialization on Dieity!!! We have it won either way :lol: However:

One reason I still think its not worth it is we are assuming all that gold will be going to rushing our UU :nono: We need that gold to rush libraries and grunts (either the cheaper muskets or better defending rifles.)

My research suggestion is shut off research for now. Watch Lizzie to see if she ever gets close to giving us Nationalisim for peace/ppress/alliance vs the french and whatever else we can toss her way.

If she doesn't get close to giving it to us by one more turn than the diffrence between our time to research and the time we want to switch sides research Nationalisim for the French war unless it looks likely the French wont have it by then, and shut it back off is my reccomendation. Doesn't matter though, because Charis wont research Nationalisim or anything else this game I'm pretty sure :lol:.

It doesn't matter what we do as long as we keep playing at such a high level.

Originally posted by ToddMarshall
Bah, this is a sign of how totally we are kicking AI but in this game when we are arguing about if it is worth researching Industrialization on Dieity!!!

But its FUN ARGUING about whether it would be better! :lol:

I am still going to do it. I just want to see Edrine kick out a Sapahi per turn.

I am quite sure the Lizzie will give us Nationalism to go away when we can talk. She is in a world of hurt for luxuries and will be down at least 4 cities and a wonder by the time we can chat.

:spank:

I'm sure she'd give us practically any other tech, but the AI values Nationalisim so amazingly high anything is possible. If she takes the "I'd rather die than give you Nationalism" approach, I guess she'll just have to die. :lol:

This continues to be one of the most enjoyable "intra-turn analysis" games I've had. I'm glad Ridgelake enjoys the discussion as long as Marshall :goodjob:

Charis <-- UP
Cartouche Bee <-- On Deck
meldor <-- If it gets past here its due to a large island

I'll take a close look at the situation, but if my (away from the map) instinct that the game won't last more than 40 turns seems right after looking at the situation, I'll fire every researcher in our civilization. And I'm currently leaning army instead of Suffrage. An Army of Sipahi's :eek: I should call it "The Nutcracker!" :hammer:

Got it,
Charis

PS I have no intention whatsoever of breaking a peace treaty or any other treaty. Along with exploit-free and honorable is the middle ground of "reputable," and that usually means a lot more to me than shaving a few years off the win date. (That's not a comment on others' views, just my own thought on it)

@ Charis How can you "got it" when Ridgelake still had 3 turns to play and no save is posted :eek: I hope you aren't playing the save from Raegan's turn :(

I also like the army because if it comes right down to it, we could just run lux tax at this point imho, or even :eek: drop to monarchy like the rest of these clowns if we hit level 3 or 4 wearyness. I doubit we need to worry about wearyness till we attack France as we are fairly insulated from English counter attack and thats where you usually get wearyness issues (cities being temporarily taken and units croaking are the main causes other than bombarding, which we won't be doing at all).

btw, I think the game will get back to me. We just started on England, and can not start on France till, I think, CB's 7th turn if we won't go after them till the alliance runs out. We also caved to a Dyes demand 1 turn before the alliance started, so at least not till his 6th turn, even if England ceases to exist. I doubit CB and meldor can claim enough of France and rush enough libraries to get it over before I get it.

@Ridgelake - What you siad is true. If Edrine can justify the expense itself then yes, the others would only have to justify their factories. One of my favorite htings to rush with a leader late in the gaem is a factory. Especially if the game is ending with mostly warmongering.

Actually.... Ridgelake should only have 2 more turns to play. Raegan lists 650AD as turn 10, Ridgelake lists 660AD as turn 0 and 730AD as turn 7......:confused: I thought something seemed a little off there......

:spank:

Oops. Good thing he didn't post a save. :P
I figured that since the last report of action was almost two pages back it had to be someone else's turn, then checked the roster and saw I was next. :lol:

Good luck on the rest of your turn, Ridgelake :D
Charis

I figured that since the last report of action was almost two pages back it had to be someone else's turn, then checked the roster and saw I was next.

Nah, its just an indication that at least one person in this SG never knows when to shut up :lol: I do think all the comminication by everyone has been a key to our success as a team though. I hope everyone agrees that its better to communicate too much than not enough. If not, then I'm sure you are sick and tired of my posts by now :p

Never say in two words what sounds better in 5. So says the oracle. :worshp:

Seriously, I think these are the types of games that make the best reads. Its like picking the minds of 4 good players and me. :jump:

Actually you can pick the brains of Charis, Raegan, Ridgelake and CB, and, ummmm don't forget about skyfish so thats 5 good players :lol:. The interisting thing to me is I've seen so many people do things in ways that I wouldn't have done, yet I can see their reasoning. I must admit I've never even considered leader rushing a factory before.

I really think this team has benifited by having people with diversified approaches so that NO area wen't negleted.

PS: Hows those last 2 turns coming Ridgelake? I'm dying to see the save :).

Ahh...yes, Sultan Ridgelake awoke for a bit more action. Here is how it went.

IT England takes Bescanon. The French take advantage of our ROP and move a bunch of cavs on our railnet from the former Viking lands.

740AD (8) Golden Age ends.

Attack on Warwick

Sap on vet Rifle: Cannon hits, take 1hp and retreat
Sap on reg Rifle: rifle wins w/1 HP, Sap dies
Sap kills ¾ rifle.
Sap kills reg rifle
Sap dies to reg cav
Sap kills 1hp rifle
Sap kills 2/3 cav. Warwick is raised. Capture 7 workers :lol:

Attack on recently captured Bescanon
Sap kills cav without scratch.
Sap kills vet cav
Sap kills 2/4 cav, we take Bescanon. I keep it since it is basically French.

Get an elite cleaning up the 3 cavs outside Bescanon.

IT we lose 3 Saps to cav counters. France moves a ton of units towards England.

750AD (9) Attack on Oxford.

Sap retreats vs vet rifle w/o damaging it.
Sap dies to vet rifle but redlines it.
Sap kills reg rifle
Sap kills reg rifle
Sap dies to redlined rifle and promotes it.
Sap dies to yellow elite rifle but redlines it.
Sap kills rifle and promotes to elite. We raise Oxford!

Kill Cav between Bescanon and Nottingham.
Stupid French are blocking road for reinforcements.

Suleyman Ridgelake, Maniac Marshall and another Sap join up in the army!

IT No counter from the English. French move a bunch of troops. Canterbury falls to the French.
760AD (10) I move workers. Pillage English horse outside Nottingham. That should kill any counters. I will leave most of the offensive force for Charis to have some fun. I had thought about moving down the west coast of England. But now that I see how weak they are, maybe we should hit London hard and capture the Pyramids and Great Wall. Not that these will do us much good.

Note to Charis, there are 4 settlers on route to the former English areas. Two of them are in galleys and 2 just disembarked. This was the fastest way to get them so far west. There is also about 10 Saps in Oslo. They were left there with the French attacking in mind.

Our 20 turns of ROP have expired, but Joanie has not asked to end it.

Here is a map of England as it currently stands
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rpb6-mow-660ad.JPG

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rpb6-mow-760_AD.SAV)

Hummmmmm, either you played 11 turns or Raegan did because the turns should be ending in X50. Not that it matters at this point I suppose. I'm gtting killed at scrabble atm, so ill look at the successes in a few. and edit my comments in below this.

A few of things occured to me overnight.

First, Bescanon should be starved down. It is all French and they have stronger culture and a much closer capital.

Second, our next leader should rush Suffrage. I used our leader on an army to get the pentagon coming faster. But I can forsee us losing a ton of troops when we go up against the French. I don't know if we will lose any cities to them, as we know where all their forces are right now, and will have the initiative. But we will lose a heck of a lot of units fighting them. I would much rather stay in republic than go through anarchy to get to monarchy.

Third, I have not fully thought this through, but it might be worth looking at moving the palace to Rome. The former Roman area is more shield heavy than our mainlands which are more commerce related. I am not saying we should do this, but it is worth investigating. Related to this, I think Edrine will be able to hit 100spt with a factory, while not in GA/mobilization. Unfortunately, Bursa and Istanbul will be lucky to hit 1/2 while in mobilization.

Fourth, do we dare attack mainland America, with transports coming online in 2 turns?

Fifth, I think that England may not last the full 20 turns of our MAs. Do we want to keep them alive with only 1 city (maybe Brighton) so as to extract Nationalism without having to research it?

There were a couple more things, but I cant remember them right now. Have fun, Charis! :hammer: :spank:

Edit: I remembered one of them. After Bescanon's borders expand, we should have some silks online, our last lux......:band:

Edit again: I was focusing the workers on getting various cities over production thresholds such as 50spt = 1 Sapahi every 2 turns, 34spt= 1/3, 25spt = 1/4, 20spt = 1/5, 17 spt = 1/6, 15 spt = 1/7, 13spt = 1/8, 12spt = 1/9, and 10spt = 1/10. As you can see, only a few shields per turn on the margin can make a big difference in our overall production.

Edit a third time: Our knight army is probably our best defender. It currently has 2 knights in it. I think that Oea, the last Carthage city has a knight in it. It might be worth dragging him out to join this army and use it as our roving defender. Its probably not worth attacking with, having only a 4 attack rating, but its the same def rating as our Saps.....

Edit a fourth time: Edrine does not yet have a bank. Probably not worth building one, but you might consider it.

I looked at it last night and came up with the following conclusions and or noticed the following things.

1) Starve Besnacon :lol: I don't think the French ever made a cultural improvement there so it isn't real likely to flip. In fact, I bet if you look, our cultue is basically equal to or slighty better than France's now.

2) France actually revolted back up to Republic? Wow. Amazing. That's not something that happens often, and not a good thing as they will for sure get nationalisim now. Maybe when they get it though, we can trade them something like Printing Press and Steam and cash on hand for it, then they'll research Communisim :).

3) Nice of France to keep us at RoP for nothing. Hurry up and rush replacement cities before France starts carving up England so we can keep it that way :lol: If they do ask for renewal, tell them no. We don't need the RoP anymore. We have as many troops in England as we are likely to need, and we have some ships to import a few more if we need to. CB will be proud, we are a naval power now ;).

4) Two turns to Indust...... finish getting it at this point, then never research again.

5) Just kill England. I can't believe how pathetic they are. It isn't worth keeping them alive for ANYTHING including tech. I'd LIKE to see us raze every city they have except London and either Dover or Liverpool which I would simply capture last. I think we should capture London just for the pride of owning The Pyramids and ? (can't think which other wonder it has). Then when we hit France we can capture Trondheim for Sistine and The Oracle, which would give us ownership of all wonders other than Leonardo's which is in Paris.

6) When we go for France, take all their Spanish and Viking cities in a blitz and rush libraries. When we hit the Core, just raze and replace. I have full confidence in Charis and CB having a plan in place to both cut off their saltpeter and slaughter their cavalry in the early rounds.

Responding to Ridgelakes ideas......

Sufferage? We don't need sufferage do we? We can use the lux slider even through stage 3 and wont collapse. I'd rather rush an army and the pentagon than sufferage.

Too late to move tha Palace. Not even worth it. Any gains we would get from this would be marginal if they exist at all. I wouldn't do it until leader 4 (Army-Pentagon-Sufferage-Palace), and i wouldn't put it in Rome, I'd rush it somewhere close to paris to fight flips. Not really a point discussing this, we WONT pull FOUR leaders.

Attack America? Why? They suck I'm sure with no money to upgrade many units, but it would be a logistical problem that would only slow our win in my opinion. If somone can produce and carry out a plan that would be faster than wiping out France, great, do it, but, unless we want to forget domination and go for conquest, I wouldn't. Besides, they have a much larger navy than us I bet.

No reason to extract ANYTHING from England. If we wanted it bad enough, we could research it. Just kill them. We don't need Nationalisim. The exception would be if we decide we want to go for conquest (why?). Then I'd stop at Brighton and extort it.

Edit: btw, nice turn. I think LIZZIE is the one who is needing some extra medication now :hammer:

1 week for threadjacking, and nationality trolling. Please don't disrupt other threads, especially with the Iraq war topics. Your posts were also spammish in nature.

The Ottomans continue to MOW down the opposition. Again it's an interesting time
in history, at war with ..., and with various factions calling for war vs France,
sustained war with England, or perhaps a build up phase towards factories.

I must say, England does look pretty pathethic and juicy. And as Marshall pointed
out, when hitting France, blitz the viking lands, capture and library, and raze and
replace the main French cities. I'm definitely not going to stop vs England before
one city just for Nationalism. Not only do I not think we need it, I don't want to
make it cheaper for France to get. I don't plan to get Suffrage unless we're swimming
in leaders - due to our high lux levels and lack of hospitals - we're fine in Republic
thru game end. Hitting America? Rifles?

Trade, deal and mil situation:
England (7 cities) at war, they won't talk yet (silly Liz)
France (19 cities) - 17 turns alliance and selling gems, 10 turns spices
America (9 cities) - 17 turns alliance with English??? Bah!! :smoke:
No intel? We need spies! Oh ya, no Espionage yet :P

My hands are tied. Tightly. Pulling in Abe was unnecessary. With two
ongoing alliance we're stuck with war vs England whether we want to switch
targets, or not. One key goal for this reign... no new 20-turn deals.

Our shield situation? Eep! We *rot*! A hefty 68 spt in Edrine, and our next best,
our very own capital, is at 28! Then 23, 21, 21, 20. At that pace we'll be buying
all our Sipahi, even if they got factories. Only Edrine is a candidate for real muscle.
Essentially none of our income is from other civs, so once research is stopped,
our income is about 510gpt. That's 1.25 per turn. Edrine is 0.5 Sipt (Sipahi per turn),
while our next four cities combined are 0.8 Sipt. Combined that is 2.5 Sipt nationally.
(Factories in these four towns would increase us by 0.4 Sipt) Sun Tzu is great, btw,
as we can rush those Sips in any city we want.

Other comments...
No bank in Edrine?
Istanbul... Mil Academy? Hmmm. That's a nice thing to have but... armies are 400 shields.
That's about 15 turns just for one. I'm tempted to switch it to Suffrage and hand
build that wonder in ~15turns, and let Edrine build the Academy in about 4 turns with
a factory first, then just 4 more turns to crank an army. But we can rushbuy to speed
up an army.
Speaking of army, I don't like them on defense in this game, so I add a Sip to our
knight army and plan to add another after Pentagon, and upgrade our last knight.
Wow, our culture is about 33% greater than France's! It's just lower than England.

Ah, I see I have many active units this turn. Grazi, Ridgelake. Let's boogie...

:rocket: Shock and awe ... :ar15:

Bap!! I'm finished. Turn is done!! But the upload isn't working... so until I
can upload the file, how about a poll on how things went?

A) Warmongers delight, England wiped off the planet?
B) Builder's delight, core output over doubled and several factories?
C) Univeral Suffrage built?
D) Coal plant in Edrine?
E) An extra leader and our fourth army?
F) Pentagon?
G) All of the above?
H) All the above, plus we've taken half of Abe's cities?
I) All the above, we've achieved domination?
J) None of the above?

Charis

Server is up, here is the turn...

[0] 760 -

Madrid, as set, will riot. It's given an entertainer.
Carthage, our Colossus city, swaps to Bank.
Our workers arrive en masse at Edrine to finish railroading its hills and mountains,
which I think will be needed to cross the 100spt mark. Next they'll hit Istanbul
and other big cities. A few corrupt and distant cities are swapped to workers. We
have lots of railroading and mining to do to optimize our assets. Besancon is
starved a bit and a library rushed, also one in Mugla. A musket is rushed in Oslo.

Now time for the troops. We don't have enough on-hand to ensure Notthingham
so I move up enough that it should fall next round.

(IBT) English Cav out of Notthingham kills a Sip then returns to city
The French impale themselves at York. Oops, not a full impale, in the end
they do take the city. 8-\
Mil Acad completes in Istanbul, we start prebuild for factory

[1] 770 - Pisae is improved to 25spt. Istanbul hits 'magic' 34spt. BTW, there were
many un-railed bonus grass tiles there, yet other non-BG tiles had mines. Use
ctrl-shift-M to see the uncluttered map to make sure you get those BG's first :D

Nottingham... 3 retreats each doing dmg, then a win, loss, win, and win for the city.
(I was right, we needed about all I brought up to take it in one round of combat)
It's razed. With England's high culture and huge cities, raze/replace is the plan.
That captures 7 workers, and there is one more we now snag behind the city.
We're going to need some settlers and quick. Four are rushed.

I look back now and see on turn 6 of Ridgelake's turn, he gave in to a Joanie
demand for dyes. 8-o She better not pull that nonsense on the hammer's watch! :hammer:
(At the time, that was probably best, but her lease on life is definitely up in
16 turns, less if she gets uppity like that again)

Some Sips are so far from England, they might not get there before they're gone.
So I start to line up a few next to strategic spots vs France. If they make demands
or for any reason come to war, they're going to be hurting on the very first round.
In particular, 8 Sips sit outside Trondheim.

As far as the war plan vs England, I'm going to let France go after London and
Liverpool, and divert my attack force and army to the rear, toward Brighton and
Newcastle, and work my way BACk toward France. That way when England is gone,
i) our troops will be in position, ii) France will be weaker for having to take on
some of their toughest and most cultural cities.

(IBT) The French do nothing but set up a wall of troops blocking my troops
getting to the war front. (Chokes back an urge for a non PC comment...)

[2] 780 - Denizli is founded on an English ruins.

I can't pass this one up: We pillage the coal at Newcasle! :lol:

Industrialization has arrived. Research is shut down. Likely permanently unless
Cartouche wants hospitals or something. Edrine and our top 8 cities, who are all
getting some irrigation re-mined, are put on factories. Why? The handcuffs.
I just don't NEED a ton more Sipahi now vs England, and I can't strike France anytime
soon, so my focus this reign will have a big infrastructure component, but one
that I hope will give us an immediate military gain.

(IBT) The only battle is longbow out of Newcastle, forcing a Sip retreat.

[3] 790 - Uskudar is improved to 27spt, will hit 50 with coal plant and courthouse.
Bursa hits 30spt, ditto. Antium likewise tuned to 28spt pre-Factory.

Bolu is founded on another English ruin. Urfa is founded right near Seville.

That knight army? The Sipahi was on top and attacked first, he slew one rifle
at Newcastle, then due to army blitz ability, slew a SECOND, and took the city!
England is crumbling *so* fast here, just two turns after saying raze/replace,
I'm switching now to capture and hold mode. I don't expect England to last til
the end of my turn!?

Wasting no time I hit Brighton. We lose one, then win one. Then, with the extra
attack bonus of the Sipahi over the Cav, I push again, and win one more. Still
one rifle left.

I'm sad to report that France has just received Nationalism. 8-|
If England had been wiped out first, their cost would have risen again to
first civ cost.

Massive fighting seen at London. *FIVE* rifles die, as they defeat three unseen
attackers. Mid-battle I remember London has Pyramids, and realize that *we*
must capture the city. Fortunate... I have an ARMY and a wad of Sips *right*
next to London :snicker:

[4] 800 - Edrine's factory is done. 92spt. It needs the coal plant (just 2 turns)
Right now, Suffrage from scratch would be 9 turns (we do NOT need it).

Bingol is founded, also right on the French border, in a large gap.
Riza also founded, another tight squeeze city.

To speed up Istanbul's factory, I swap-buy bank-swap back. JUST short on shields,
so I disband a warrior there to get it due in 2 instead of 3 turns.

At London, the top defender is a hurt 2hp rifle. Our elite Sip hits him, and...

Salim!!! A great leader! :P
(Note to self: Suffrage? Army? Factory?)

The city is now only defended by a few conscripts. We lose one Sipahi, but capture
London, and the Pyramids and Great Wall :hammer:
On the other side of the city are SIX French cav. For once THEY were a turn late :)

Our army, still free, hits Dover. Twice. We defeat two rifles, but get knocked
down to 3hp in the process. At least there's an internal promotion.
The attack is pressed... one Sip retreats, but another TAKES Dover!

England is down to just Liverpool and Brighton.
If it weren't for the alliance with Abe I would take peace, and Nationalism.
Er... no? She'll give NEITHER Nationalism nor Brighton????? She's crazy!?

Our units attack Brighton! First... Suffrage is rushed in London. It would
take way too long for the leader to run home (and be exposed too many rounds),
plus there's good denial value in Suffrage. At 800 shields, it's a good rush.

Besides. I want to *dominate* the deity AI's here! Chalk up another wonder! :hammer:

Brighton just had a hurt unit and a conscript. I was hoping for another leader,
to post-justify the US rush, but not this round :P The city is ours. (Liz STILL
values Nationalism too high to give up. She won't survive another round.)

Last action - I move troops next to Liverpool IN THE WAY OF THE FRENCH!
I think I'll make the route to the one spot they can attack from long enough
that just a few cav can hit it and weaken the city, but not capture it!?

(IBT) Bingo! :P Three cavs die and one wins, and NINE others make it TO
Liverpool but can't reach it. Paybacks are heck, Joanie :lol:
The people are so impressed they add on to the palace.

Abe tries to sink an English ship that got out of Brighton, but lost. Oh my, I hope
there is no settler on a ship?

[5] 810 - Suffrage completes in London. Our top ten cites are now 'optimal' (for size 12)
with no wasted food and max shields, all worked tiles railroaded. If we don't
get hospitals these don't need to be tweaked or improved any more. Adana and Konya,
cities 11 and 12, start getting attention next.

At Liverpool the first two weak rifles fall. Then another elite hits 'em...

Ma.. Ma... Mehmed the Great!! :P Come to papa! Liverpool is captured, and the
English are GONE! I would love another dozen Sipahi in range, cancel the RoP and
slaughter the nine cav out in the open, but we're still preparing for our final
and brutal assault on France. Not yet, says General Charis to his men... Soon...

What to do with THIS leader? Again, he's got a long and perilous trip home.
Instead I think I'll build another army, enabling the Pentagon.

There seems to be no impact on the ending of the alliance. Both remaining civs
will take gpt and aren't too annoyed. We now have no deals going with Abe and
I'm not about to change that! If he and his lil Musket defenders want trouble,
they can have some! Four galleons of sipahi would eat him alive. If we get to
France before Abe goes insane, we can ally with him vs Joan.

Zonguldak is founded SW of an English ruins, and another settler heads NE of it
to found another city, closer to France.

[6] 820 - Istanbul completes its factory. Now at 54spt, there's no point for a plant.
It'll do a bank quickly, then either army or continuous Sipahi production.

Edrine finishes its coal plant. 111spt :P Pentagon due in 4.
Kirklareli is founded in a gap near Norwich. The spices are due online next
round next to Besacon, so I rush a harbor there for a non-France pathway.

Karabuk is planted in a large gap near York. For once I don't crowd a French city :P
Peppermint is formed in a tiny gap near York and Canterbury.
Bovine Ferrous Hill is founded near Olso. On a hill near cow and iron (duh)
Gump is founded in a forest near Chartres, as a buffer to more core cities like Izmit.

Two libraries in English area are rushed.

(IBT) France patrols around aimlessly. One minor (?) issue - they have a *TON*
of troops, even though ours are superior.

[7] 830 - Sivas is founded, near but not crowding York, buffering Besacon.

[8] 840 - Bursa's factory is done, now 43 spt. Uskudar is 40spt. Both need a coal plant.
Yogurt is founded south of... York! (Yah, yah, it looks like a cultural push,
but I'm not looking for York to flip. We're going to capture it in the upcoming
war. It's a buffer town between French border and London.)

English channel is founded west of Dover, at a choke point.
BTW, when you're rushing as many things as I'm trying to rush - muskets, libraries,
and factory speed-ups, 500gpt sure doesn't go very far!

(IBT) our first pollution... at Istanbul.

[9] 850 - Antium comes in at 42spt after factory. Yet another coal planter.

(IBT) A new source of saltpeter arrives at Uskudar.

[10] 860 - The Pentagon completes and Edrine can now get to what it has been
designed to do... crank one one Sipahi per turn until the game is over :hammer:

Pisae finishes factory, now 37spt, leaving as is for Sip/3.
Utica hits size 12 and also 20spt.

I go through the corrupt cities and put a number on taxman duty. I should have
done this earlier! Income jumps from ~563 gpt to +617 :P

I 'top off' our 3-member armies with Siphali. One is in Yogurt, another in London.
There is a settler awake on a gap spot in SW Vike territory. He can settle there,
or move elsewhere.

The French deal buying Spice just now ended, where we trade Furs+27gpt for it.
With the spices at Besacon we don't need that, so I canceled it.

Our shield count in top cities: 111, 54, 43, 42, 40, 37, 31, and in one turn also 36,34.
That's double what we started with, and we've increased the Sipahi output by almost 3/turn.

To our next leader, le Bee du Cartouche -

- There's a spare settler in Edrine now, and one in Besancon.
America has a monopoly on silks. Trade for some if/when you hit france, or go
get some yourself (i.e., raze/replace New York, before they get rifles!)
- Decide what to do with the unmoved settler, I was intending to settle that spot.
- There's an *empty* army in London.
- Just west of Neopolis is my 'spare' stack of Sipahi - 9 of them. There are also
several 'dissuaders' scattered in French territory, sitting on mountain tops or
resources, if Joan loses her mind. Draw them back for a clean declaration.
- You have 696g to spend on rushing this turn, I withheld my hand.

* There is no *REAL* deal with France anymore!! There is an ROP which is going on
until we cancel it, and we 'owe' France dyes for 6 more turns. These dyes were from
demanded tribute, and we got nothing for it. If you need 6 turns to finish plants,
rush libraries and muskets and amass your troops, that's fine, but if you're ready
to strike before them, I certainly wouldn't fault canceling a tribute deal.
(Do remember that an America strike now would still require us hitting France for
the last style point -- just in case you we thinking they would be easier)

** The more I think about it, the tougher this war is actually going to be!?
- We have a TON of cities that are within one turn of being hit by cav.
- I think we're going to see some serious casualties. We've not had war weariness
all game, but lose some buffer cities and units, and it will skyrocket.
- Some of those 'stacks' of Sipahi you see are one Sip covering 12 workers
(so declaring war this round would be horrendous)
- France has a TON of units.
- Most of their cities have upgraded to rifles already.
- All their cash is going to useless things, while we can rush, and our productivity
is much higher, due to factories and rails.
- Rushing some fringe libraries would decrease how many cities we need to capture.
So I wouldn't recommend slowing things down or waiting 20 more turns to attack, but
taking the six turns of the remaining deal to get more Sips built and get troops into
position might be wise.

Situation map, focused on England: (edit - I had wrong link)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP6-MOW-860ad.jpg

Looking at the area, it's really hard to tell, but I would say that we don't have to
take TOO many cities to get a domination win! Viking lands, rushed libraries, and
a handful of more towns should do it. Alas, there's a lot of units to kill.

Save file 860AD RBP6 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-860AD.zip)

Roster: (Someone went one over, so we're at xx60 AD turns)
Cartouche Bee <<-- UP
Meldor <<-- On Deck. I predict a win here around 1000AD or so.
(Skyfish)
Maniac
Reagan
Ridgelake
Charis

Good luck!
Charis

PS Answer was (G) All of the above :P

PPS in EDIT the other link is some photohop playing around to try to see how much % of land+seacoast we have for domination... Seems close, but it probably is +/- 10% accuracy

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-area860ad.jpg

My vote is G
Are you guys sure you are playing deity here? These reports read like a monarchy game!

Great turn, Charis Osmon! :hammer:

For those who could not get the picture of England, try this one :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp6-mow-860ad.JPG

Well, I must admit, that is an awsome looking turn even for you Charis :)

I figured England wouldn't last the full 10 turns, but wow, they only lasted FIVE. I was amazed they were so weak militarily. I guess they impaled a lot of units in all those wars we kept draging them into :hmm:.

** The more I think about it, the tougher this war is actually going to be!?
- We have a TON of cities that are within one turn of being hit by cav.
- I think we're going to see some serious casualties. We've not had war weariness
all game, but lose some buffer cities and units, and it will skyrocket.

Yeah, I totally agree, which is why I hoped we would have Nationalisim by now :lol:. France has Leo's too (their only wonder other than the ones in Trondheim), so they will upgrade a LOT of muskets to Rifles and probably draft some conscripts when we start rolling..... I think their horsed force is probably close to ours in count, but having less cities than us, probably have less grunts. They were in monarchy for a LONG time too, so expect 3 defenders pre core city rather than 2 :(. Then again, I though england would take TWICE as long to take as they did.

I really don't think the outcome is in any doubit, though. We WILL win no later than my turn at the latest, because we can attack their weak colonies, employ a strat to eliminate their resources and dry up their cavs, and we can definately outproduce them.

Great turn Charis!



@ Lee, it feels like a level between monarch and emperor.....

Rome was a joke. Never had iron, never made a mounted unit...... other than their gpt, they looked like a REGENT civ :(, The only thing that kept Carthage alive so long were all those NM and that city a million miles away in English lands, Spain and Scandanavia wared with each other for so long they were both a totally gassed joke by the time we got arround to them, and, well, I don't understand Lizzie. She should have been much stronger.

btw, I believe CB said he was out till sometime monday, so don't panic if he doesnt "I got it" till then. He said we could skip him, but I really don't think we should if he can get it in the next 48 since this is the endgame now.

I think one of the biggest boosts we got was our being able to keep the AI fighting each other rather than us. Because we were strong militarily from teh start, the AI never went through the usual pick on the human phase. We have been able to play them all like puppets on strings.

One thing that this shows is that it is easier to win with a bold warmonger strat than with a meek builder one.

Yeah. Basically, from the time when France declared war on England way back before we even attacked Rome, we managed to turn this into an allways war situation for every AI without ever being the target. Carthage never had peace till they had only one city, France, Spain, and Scandanavia maybe had 10 or so turns of peace in the last from the time we started on rome till now or their death. The only civs that had extended peace periods in the last 100+ turns are England and America.

We got good breaks, no doubit. Rome being so weak, and the AI vs AI wars seemingly right when we needed them, but none of that would have mattered if we hadn't used these to our advantage and squzed every last drop of blood out of virtually every situation that came up.

@ meldor - I tell you what, I'm going to be building a lot more early military my next 1 or 2 sp Dieity games to test how that affects the flow of the game for me.

Oh no, the game has become so much of a forgone conclusion that we can't even find anything to spend time debating........

Oh no, the game has become so much of a forgone conclusion that we can't even find anything to spend time debating........

:lol:

Eep, we can 't let tht happen!

Two very debatable topics at this stage -
i) when to hit France and how badly this is going to hurt
ii) whether OW on deity is very good, very bad, or depends a lot on the game conditions

On number 1, my initial thoughts due to the sheer power-feeling of ROLLING over England was "quick strike, capture five cities and we're alread over the top for domination, game over". But as I think about it, that got replaced with "if we hit them anytime in the next 10 turns, the mid-turn response from a gazillion cav is going to be to lose twice as many cities as we take and we'll see our precious Sips get wasted by the outnumbering cav" Other than 'quick' finish, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain from having a building span, build-up of Sip and a rushing of many libraries, lasting, oh, about 20 turns (the discovery of Replaceable Parts the only upper limit)

On number 2, may I offer the counter-example Oscillating War game of RBP2 the Warmongering Koreans? I had wanted to (cough) see the game won before (cough) a post-mortem on oscillation. The settler from hut in other games has proven to be nearly a full drop in difficulty, but frankly, the outcome has been like something intermediate to Monarchy to Emperor. The 'playing' of the AI one against another was also HUGE. What was a *surprisingly* small issue was our Mounted Unit restriction. We could have gone 'fully Mounted', totally disallowing slow units, as it turned - with almost no impact. Another thing to keep in mind - we didn't oscillate in the true sense of the term. We hit Carthage, then re-hit them, then pummelled them. Then we hit Rome and rolled them over, then Spain, until their back was broken. This is VERY different from the 'technical' war victories in RBP2 (as amazing as they were, defeating countries with literally a dozen times our offensive power in some of the wars). I'll have to go back and study the first half of this game more carefully - I seem to remember at least two occasions, both times I think on Cartouche Bee's watch, where I went "omg, wth did he do???" about the aggressiveness of the war declaration, going for immediate action instead of a build-up phase I was 99% sure was critical (it was not). The speed at which the AI showed themselves to be gassed was almost beyond belief here. This overall strategy could be termed "Serial Dogpile Ongoing War" (SDOW)

btw, as suggested recently, let's wait for CB's return to let him get his turn - it's too big a point to skip him (and too much CNN to watch to have to push)

Charis

Well guys I am back from a long trip and gee what a quick progress ? :eek:
This was a masterly played game :goodjob:

To Charis :

On point 1 : IMHO everytime we have overestimated how powerful our opponents would be, let's not fall for it again :hammer:

On point 2 : I do believe OW is an absolutely great tactic, the best actually, destabilizing the AIs to the maximum and and when you say
I seem to remember at least two occasions, both times I think on Cartouche Bee's watch, where I went "omg, wth did he do???" about the aggressiveness of the war declaration, going for immediate action instead of a build-up phase I was 99% sure was critical (it was not). The speed at which the AI showed themselves to be gassed was almost beyond belief here.
That is precisely the point that is crucial in this strategy : the AIs are not expecting such high early agression and are not "programmed" to counter such threat. Imagine that YOU as human and extremely experienced was surprised, what was the piece of circuitry's reaction ? Unfathomable ? Flabbergasted ?
Looks like they went in Panic mode, changing build orders every turn, rushing the worng things everywhere at the worst time, changing their mind about where to hit us.

Having studied some of his games and reading his posts, I believe that Cartouche is a specialist at this tactic and hopefully he will share with us some more of his past experiences...

Meldor's point about us not being chosen as bullies because of our mil strength is excellent and probably the key to this game.

p.s : This patch issue is preventing me for playing anything right now (like RBE25 and 26 !) is terrible :mad: :cry:
Was in US last week and almost bought a US version of Civ3 + PTW just to be able to join for some last minute action here...

Skyfish, Lee is starting a new LK that is deity on the 1.14 patch.

Charis, the big thing in RPB2 was the jungle start. If we could have put down 5 cities with the speed we did in this game.... :hammer:

@ Skyfish - Well, I don't think we over estimated Rome. With no iron/horses/culture I expected them to be awful. Maybe my "sudden" attack on them was surprising to some too, because it looked like I went in with minimal buildup, but.... they were terrible, and if they got iron and upgraded that big army to legions/pikes/mdi they would have been a tough opponent insead of a tame one.

@Charis/meldor The jungle killed us that game. Everything worked against us really. We NEVER had an opportunity to attack Russia seriously, nor to get them piled on. We were exactly the wrong size too. Just big enough our lux didn't bring enough in trade, but too small to become any factor. Don't discount the fact that was a small map too, which further speeds the AI tech pace.

btw - what is next on your list Charis? I've been limiting myself to 1 SG at a time, and if your next idea is as good as this one, I'd like to join again. I wouldn't be averse to too many diffrent ideas.

One thing that occurs is that if we revisit this theme full tilt on ONLY MOW units is that the Zulu would make almost the perfect civ for this if they were moded to start with bronze and the wheel, and all units between impi and mechs were disabled for them, or possibly the aztecs with all units beyond jags disabled, and set to upgrade to mechs for us at computers. I would actually favor the latter idea. Immagine trying to squeeze in both a jag war and a chariot war!

Edit: After giving it more thought, I think the Aztecs would work best if we redo this theme, and wouldn't even need to change starting techs, but simply mod chariots out of our buildable units since jags are just 1/2 price chariots. We could allow the catapult line still, but say we can never move them from their home city until we reach radar artilery, which we could mod to 2 movement for all civs (why the heck can't this unit move 2 anyway??).

That would leave the following lines as our only land units:
Jag -> Mechs
Horsemen -> Knights -> Cavs
Tanks -> Modern Armor
Cats -> Cannon -> Artilery [All stuck within the city built/captured] -> Radar Artillery (moded to 2 move and therefore usable in the field.)
Explorers.

If anyone thinks that the cat/artillery would be too much to allow, note our best defensive unit is the Jag until knights, then the knight/cav until tanks :eek:.

I thought CB said he would be back by monday, but when I looked back, he didn't specify when he would return. I would like to suggest we wait until either tomorrow night or thursday afternoon for him, and if he hasn't surfaced by then, perhaps we could swap him and meldor if meldor is ok with that and has time to play. If not, then we could wait till sunday night or monday.

I'm willing to wait till next monday for him to show up if everyone else is, becase the game is almost ceartian to end either on meldor's scheduled turn or at the latest on mine.

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
I don't know if I'll be back in time for my next turn so skip me if you have not heard from me.

The above was made on March 15.

Maybe we should push CB back in the order with Meldor taking the next turn. I would hope that CB would be back after Meldor gives it a go. Meldor, do you have a preference?

If Meldor is available, he should go ahead and take it now, swapping turns this round with Cartouche Bee.

Charis

I am up in two other SGs at this time. If CB has not posted a "got it" I can probably get it tomorrow night, unless someone else is chomping so badly at the bit. I would prefer if CB had a shot at playing a last turn if for no other reason than to reward the excelance of his play.

I agree. You won't hit domination if you swap unless you want to barge ahead before the tribute deal runs out, which may not be wise, and may not anyway. I definately can't see you hitting it in 4 turns, which would still give him a chance to play, and possibly be the one who played the winning turn (which seems like a reward to me actually). So I'd say, finish up your other SG's, then if no sign of life from him by the time you could play, just swap. I would be next in line and am in no real hurry to play, especially as i may not see annother turn anyway. I'll wait till the cows come home or until the conecsus wants me to "get it over", but will NOT play any earlier than tuesday next week as he deserves that long. I'd call it 50/50 at best that it goes more than 20 more turns.

OK, I got it but I have to check back to see what's going on. I'm a bit surprised at seeing the French doing so well. I thought we would have hit them by this point. I'll post back later before I start my turns.

Looks like we have had some real good turns by everybody, we don't have many opponents to deal with any more. :lol:

Welcome back, CB :)

Yea! WB.

The French have just been too useful/powerful to bother with until last basically. They droped to Monarchy for a long strech and so made themselves the best trading partner, built a LOT of cavs (or upgraded a lot with Leos) and also the fact they boardered everyone on the contenent made them ROP of choice.

Go get'em CB, you get an extra :worshp: and :jump: if you can finish it before my turn.

If he finishes it on his turn it will be a STUNNING victory for us.

Well, I think that France was a lot weaker than was generally thought. We hit domination in 910AD, it's too late to make the full report, hopefully I can get that up tomorrow night. It was just a short war of attrition.

Here is the win notification screen for now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/MOW-Domination-910AD.JPG

Unreal guys!
Congrats on a mind blowing win.

I don't think I have won domination this early in an emperor game.

Congratulations on this win :goodjob:

A great Game and a great read (especially the discussions :D )

:worshp: Congrats again :worshp:


Rowain

Wow, a great victory. :)

General CB led us to utter Domination.
Not surprising.
:goodjob:
An extra :worshp: and an extra :jump: as Meldor would say ;)

By the way, Lee, this was a Deity game, not an Emperor.
What a great finish date.
Don't wanna brag too much but I did say we overestimated our opponents everytime (OK almost everytime Todd) :D

Only disappointment of course was not too be able to take more turns because of that damned patch...:cry: :mad: :cry:
you still always made me feel part of the team I really appreciated that, thanks to all of you. We need to team up again very soon.
:cool:

Holy cow. It only took FIVE turns? Geez. I really did figure they would take a lot more cities with counter attacks than it looks like they did. Maybe we got some 3 front confusional things to mess them up? Still dang impressive. I must say I overestimated how much land was needed for domination like I usually do. Terrific job everyone.

Originally posted by Skyfish
By the way, Lee, this was a Deity game, not an Emperor.



That was my point about the game. I realized that it is deity. That was a comment on how good of play this game. You beat deity more decisively then I have beaten emperor.

@CB

:worshp: :worshp:
:jump: :jump:


@Lee, look at the players, the only slacker was me. :lol:

OMGWHTTF??!!! :hammer:

Wow, way to go CB! You know that 'errant' jpg I attached instead of a map last page? That was an attempt to figure out how much area we had, and it showed we were *real* close to domination. So close, I thought I did a poor job creating the image, but I couldn't have been too far off.

So I guess those factories were indeed overkill?? I look forward to the full report (including... score?). And please don't forget an upload of the save on the turn *before* the win.

Great job everyone!!

Cartouche Bee
Meldor
Skyfish
Maniac
Reagan
Ridgelake
Charis

:hammer:
Charis

I have to say that it was quite an honor to play beside such skillful teammates. I learned quite a bit from each of you.

:beer: I raise my glass to each of you!


[party]


Ridge

PS I also want to send a thank you to Sullla, if he is still around lurking and not MOOing. It was his training game months ago that brought my skill level up to where I can think about trying a diety game.:)

@Charis, I'll also do some screen shots of the graphs and such since we have quite a few people who can't open PTW 1.21 files. (BTW, the game score was 9700 -9800, exact value will be in the report.)

Those last 50-60 turns of the game where everyone just plowed through the AI was the real reason that this finished this quick. The game summary replay really shows how we mobilized our power and swept up the AI to victory. By leveraging off our different styles it produced a strong fairly balanced game where we could capitalize on a number of situations that arose.

:goodjob:

9700-9800?! Holy cow, thats MY all time high...

Preturn:
Since Charis stated that I could break the Dyes tribute I carefully consider war ASAP. We have some real good targets that we can hit and get an upper hand on the first strike. We are stronger than France according to the military advisor (I think most people don't use this advisor enough) so I move all our units out of France so I can declare war. I want to target all the Cavs that I can see so I keep that in mind when I move the units out (I over studied this as you will see later). Looking at the map really implies that domination is not far off, so, I will not raze any cities that I take. If we trade some cities, so be it, I want to wear them down dramatically and quickly. I figure that they will come back at me with pretty much as much as they can muster.

With domination in mind, I rush libraries in Riza, Peppermint,Sivas, Newcastle. (If I were to do this again, I'd have looked at spots where I should have rushed muskets but I was over confident.)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP6-860-preturn.JPG

860
After picking off a few Cavs, it's clear that York is really a good target to clear the way to take all the French units in that area so our two populated armies do their job and take out 3 riflemen and a Sipahi takes the last cav defender out. The city is kept for logistical reasons. ;) Picking off the areas French produces another leader, which I later used for another army. I pick off as many cavs as I can hit before looking for other targets. My main purpose is to inflict damage from every angle that I can.

:weed: I found a unit that I failed to move out before declaring war, the unit is not used for any war purposes and once found was moved out of the French territory and then back in, so technically a ROP but the unit was not used in any ROP manner (the rep damage is done though).

Rather than push to take cities I go for worker snatching and placing units for future pillaging targets. I know that we have too many targets to defend so I use this fact to allow the French a chance to counter in a way that will leave me with a chance to cripple them.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP6-860-endturn.JPG

IBT
Yep we lose Bingol and Pepermint where I had brilliantly rushed a library in. :( We also lose about 5 more Sipahi in the French counter attack, they lost about 3 cavs. I would say that the French probably have no more than 6-8 cavs around and lose.

870
I would like to be able to reunite our forces. I decide to take Canterbury to reach out toward the west. Then, I check for stray cavs, for easy picks at targets. Avignon guarded with musket is the next easy target. Valencia size 6 next target. Pillage (Saltpeter, iron and mines) to provide another ever growing problem to the French decline. Bolu, Denizli, Liverpool rush library. York rush Musket. Found Van and Bingol. I want to keep pressing toward a domination so that if the French faulter on a counter attack take a crack at meeting the required criteria.

IBT
The French raze Bingol,Gump and Sivas. They take out a few more of our units but our advances are still gaining ground over the French counter attacks. The French are losing about 2 -1 units and we are definately out producing them.

880
We already have war weariness setting in from out losses and large number of units on french turf (the first real sign of a deity game). So raise the lux tax to 20%. We finally get our chance to separate the French from the saltpeter. Found Cankiri, Iskenderun and Tunceli.

IBT
Van is razed. That's pretty much it, they are running out of steam, I feel this was the turn that France wilted.

890
We take Seville. We pick and rest units, the northern route to link our cities looks like a quicker route now, so I line up Lyons for a hit. Lots of boring worker moves, the previous players did such good jobs I got tired of looking in cities for spots to fix, so I just did mostly make work projects.

IBT
Cankiri is captured, this city should have been auto razed, maybe we built on the spot enough the game engine decided to just leave it there.

900
Cature Lyons, Hastings, and Cankiri. Sivas is founded. By this time I'm getting tired of moving workers with the end this near so I start automating them (another sin but we don't need more frosting). We have a settler in postion to tie up the space between Lyon and Avignon.

IBT
Not enough counters to stop our domination.

910
Domination. Score 9637

How expensive was the war? We started with 59 Sipahi and ended up with 52 Sipahi.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP6-MOW-900AD.SAV

Thanks for letting me join the team, guys! All I did was tag along. Great game! :goodjob:

[dance] :band: [dance]

Hmmmm, now that tis one is over, I need annother SG..... looks at Charis who must be able to find some spare non MOO time for one (right?). I mean, what am I going to do if I don't have somewhere to spam with all my (sometimes bad) ideas?

Anyway, thanks for inviting me in to fill the roster hole created by the patch, and lets all get togeather for an SG again soon eh?

@meldor Stop undersetimating your contributions. You were very solid and a great help to the team :)

-Maniac

Not only do we given deity one the *soundest* thrashings I've ever seen, but the players are wrangling over who can claim to be the biggest slacker! :lol:

73hrs, 50min, 32sec - about equal to the in-forum discussion time :P

Replay shows our expansion was excellent.
We had one of the better starting locations, Carthage one of the toughest, and
Rome one of the most crowded. England had a good starting location positionally,
Carthage entered GA in 1225BC at end of one of our first wars. Oh my we pounded them
badly. And Rome too, sheesh. Spain got a GL in 50BC. Then a second one in 90AD, we
getting our first in between. France enters GA in 210AD. Ah, that's how they did so
well vs the Vikings. We had 7 Leaders overall. The histogram is extremely telling,
it lacks the all-too-common 'pause', this one is nearly a straight exponential
curve, with no let up.

It's not in HOF due to being started as a 'mod' (for gfx, initial scout, and
Wheel instead of Masonry, all due to not being allowed to use slow troops),
but if you would like it in there, open up HighScores.cv3 and paste this line in:
Osman_MOW_(RBP6) 20 9637 5 0 1

(I did -- ) That's a new high score for me :goodjob:

Hey Marshall, is your doc ok with you playing SG's? :P
I'll re-check the SG ideas thread and see what's next on the agenda. My free time hasn't been sucked down much by Moo, rather by RL (family and work project). But I was down to just this one SG, so I need to start another one too.

Charis

PS Well after my turn and post/comments, I was dying to see what French was like. I let the RoP expire and said 'Get lost' when they told me to leave, just to see what would happen. If you let the French and all their cav get first attack... brutal. I lost about 5 cities first round, and a lot of Sip, and I think they could have taken more if they wanted to. We would have outproduced still, but that wasn't pretty. Just goes to show the value of not waiting until the enemy attacks you first in Civ 3.

Yea :) Sign me up and slot me last in the rotation if you start one.

I HATE the expansion phase, and it's my weakest point, and playing last in SG's lets me avoid doing much of this hehe. Thats one reason I leaped at Epic 16. I get much more pleasure at "fixing" a work in progress, though I can't say there was much fixing to do with this roster :)

Actually, I don't care what my Doc thinks, only what my gf thinks, and she is fine with it, and I've even convinced her to give the game a try (she allways said it was her ambition to rule the world, well, now is her chance I told her :)), and I may run a TDG at some point.

:wavey: :jump:

If we get another one under way sometime in the future, we should try to devise some way to make it last at least further into the Industrial Age. :cooool:

If we start in the middle of the jungle we could do that :lol: In the other 3 SG's I've played (RBP1,3,6) the crew was just too good to let that happen.

Sign me up as well, Charis Kon.

I believe the Defiant Nationalist variant should be given another try as Revenge is calling !

Originally posted by Skyfish
I believe the Defiant Nationalist variant should be given another try as Revenge is calling !

Uh oh! ;)

If we get another one under way sometime in the future, we should try to devise some way to make it last at least further into the Industrial Age.

If that isn't a *DEFIANT* throwing-down-the-gauntlet comment, CB, I don't know what to call it! :hammer:

Another sign of a game that went very well, folks are signing up for the follow-on game when we haven't even picked it yet -- that's a great vote of confidence :P

I would love to hear from CB and others in this game, what thoughts do you have for a Defiant Nationalist game with respect to:

- What Civ? rematch Japan? Celts? Rome? Germans?
- Compared to RBP5, what would you do different? (Mainly 'taking the threat to be real and deadly at all times, more military build-up and less infra, less hopeful plans for expansive offensive wars, I'm thinking)
- are any rules tweaks needed (I'm thinking no, not in essence, lest we avoid the true challenge of it)

If such a game didn't make it out of the Industrial Era I would be utterly flabbergasted and impressed.

Charis

As for a civ, I think Japan is the right choice. Militaristic obviously. Religious to help with quick gov changes to help with war weariness. Good UU that would set off our GA at a good time.

The Celts would be similar, but their UU is expensive and would likely force a pre-mature GA.

Rome has commercial over religion. Less corruption would be good, but anarchy periods may well tie our hands for treating war weariness. The side benefit of religion is cheap temples......

Germans, why would we need science? :) This is not AW, is it? Well, maybe it would be close. Perhaps a worthwhile consideration. Their UU is late though.

The Vikings might be a thought as well, depending on the map type. We got such a big benefit from popping a settler this game, that may well be a major key to our success in the next one.

Shrug. Those are my thoughts.

Well, the Chinese could also be a good choice. Militaristic + Industrious is turning into my favourite combo. Plus, the UU is great and well-timed.
Also, it would make sense as a sequel to last game... The Defiant Nationalists of Japan may be dead, but their spirit lives on and has infected their victors!

I'd be interested in playing the defiant game if you give it another shot. How about if you change one rule, though -- you don't have to be defiant about rival units that are in jungle squares. :lol:

I just read the rules for RBP5, this looks like a logical step up in difficulty. (Stops us from the alliance dogpiles anyway).

Like Ridgelake says, I think the Celts are out cause their unit is too expensive (a nice unit otherwise).

I'd say skip Japan, only to add variety to the series, otherwise a real nice choice (one of my favorite civs).

I'd vote for Rome next, but Sirian has his infantry variant running.

That leaves the Germans, which would mean that we don't get our UU till the late Industrial Age, which might be very appropriate unless we finish it up before we get our UU. :lol:

Other ideas: Aztec, China, Egypt, Mongols and Zulu.

Aztecs (probably a better choice for Deity can be made), Egypt (my pet), China (could be awesome), I've never played the Mongols and Zulu (early advantages).

I'd say we should use a civ that you have not used in the RBP series and one that you don't have reserved for a later scenario.

Originally posted by Charis
RBP5 - Defiant Nationalists of Japan (Succession game)
.....
The proposed "Defiant Nationalist" rules are:
* No giving in to tribute, ever. That includes never paying for peace.I don't think we did this at least that I can remeber? Did we do it early?
* May never sign mutual protection pacts, military alliance, right of passage, or embargoWe did do the RoP but only to get at the others.
* Any troops in your land must be told to leave immediatelyI don't remember this being a problem except maybe the Romans ealry on.
* No capturing of foreign cities or demanding cities in tribute (flips/propaganda are ok)This one we did, but a lot of the later were raze and rebuild. I guess we would have had to raze Sun's.
* No qualms about dastardly actions in the best interest of our nation
(e.g., steal tech, military blockades, wars of aggression, neutral pillaging...)Did we need to be dastardly.....oh yeah, the French....
* If an AI razes one of your cities, it must be eliminated (timeframe up to you)We would have blown this one as we didn't eliminate the French before the end.
* Foreign workers may never be added to your cities.I don't think anyone did this one either, did we?
* Nationalism should be learned ASAP upon entering Industrial eraCan we trade for it?
* Every city size 7+ at this time, and subsequent cities reaching size 7 for first time,
MUST draft a unit for defense of that city. (So eventually, a conscript in every 'city')This would have been pretty late in the game, but OK we could do that. Would it be the same if we pop-rushed one before we left despotism?

Seems like it shoud be pretty doable.

I would go more for the Chinese as we could then get revenge for both RPB2 and RPB5. Keep them cultural linked so to speak.

I like the Chinese for the DefNat game. They have a great combo of abilities and a really nice UU.

Definitely Chinese....

But just to offer a different alternative it seems to me the DefNat is a very defensive game in the beginning, because the main problem stems from Deity ROP (TM), you will have to wage an early war and that could really cripple your expansion in the beginning. Reading RPB5 it seemed the team was a bit enthusiastic about going and waging war in ennemy's territory. I would play it DEFENSE big time in the beginning, stay nicely locked up in walled cities and play a war of attrition.
Of course everyone must be real sick of Carthage atm but they have a great UU for this Defence perspective so of course....it's gotta be the Greeks !
:)

I would have to disagree on the Greeks, it would result in too early of a GA. Even the Chinese GA might be a little too early but it is better than the Greeks (if we us the UU). I think the key to this one is exactly what we did the this time, early military and don't take any sh.....stuff from anyone else. If they don't pick on us, we pick on them.....

I'd like to see another rule added:
We can't buy workers for gold and/or GPT. You can receive workers as part of a total trade deal but no straight worker for gold or GPT deals. [Part of a distain for foreigners rule.]



Sounds like the Chinese are getting the thumbs up and I think it's a good choice also.

On the Golden Age, I think early Golden Ages are waaaay under rated. That early boost of productivity should provide a crest that you can ride through the rest of the game. In my book, GA, the sooner the better.

Geez, I go to bed and the crew picks a theme allready :lol: I'ts probably too late for this now, but I had an idea for a rather diffrent sort of game for either 7 or 8 (since it looks like 7 is a landslide in favor of defiant).

Difficulty: Dieity or Emperor Plus
Map: Small/Temperate/Flat/Pangea/optimal # of cities for corruption changed to 12 from 14
Opponents 5 - No scientific Civs, otherwise random.

Varient Rules:
We may only build One city ever.

We may obtain up to 5 more cities maximum (enough for fp), but must propaganda/flip/capture them, they must be capable of joining boarders with one of our current cities on first boarder expansion which must be done asap by rushbuy or whip, even if it isnt ordinarily a prudent thing to do, and the city may work no citizens until it has a trade route and joined boarders with the capital.

Once we take ownersip of a city, it is our city and may never be abandoned or replaced. If it is razed, then we just have to plug along with no more than 5 total cities the rest of the game. If it is captured, we must make every reasonable effort to recapture it.

I know this doesn't sound too tough, but the kicker is that we are going for space ship victory, with all but culture enabled. (Might be impossible on Dieity with these restrictions, which is why I suggested Emperor plus as an alternative)

Many people expressed either public or private interest to me in a builder style for the next game (or maybe the one after it since defiant seems fairly settled on now), so this was my idea to do that and to promote a game we KNOW would reach the modern age (unless we lost). I have won this varient (barely) on Monarch, so I know it is doable on that level.

For defiant, I'd prefer Egypt because to me, Religious and Industrious are the 2 best civ traits at this level.

Remember, as far as UU's go, you can allways build them until you get a GA, so we just wouldn't use those chariots till we were ready to pick off a weakened eneny for our GA, after which we get some cheap upgrades :).

I do think we should DEFINATELY use an industrious civ. With all the restrictions we have imposed, we will need all the advantages we can get.