For the next RBP game in the warmonger trilogy, we're going to
try a pretty difficult variant - Mounted Oscillating War (MOW).
We're looking to the MOW the grass of slower moving civs by
showing the superiority of speed. Mounted units hitting hard for
a limited objective then demanding peace. On Deity level.
Many good ideas were kicked around, ranging from an extremely
difficult 'Perpetual Oscillating War' (POW, always in a war),
to basic OW (which suffered the same problem as Always War, that
your first war comes too early and AI has too much of an advantage.)

Here's the rules for MOW:

*Our only attackers are the 7 fast units: Chariots, Horsemen, Knights,
Cavalry, Tanks, Mech Inf and Modern Armor.
* Foot units are looked down upon (silly grunts), too slow, and never
ever allowed to leave the city they're built in. This allows MP and
defense but they can't show their face in public. (Attacking a stack such
that you can't 'move' is thus ok. Warrior from a hut must beeline home)
* Artillery is too slow to keep up with us. It may be built for defense,
but cruise missiles and air/naval support will have to do. Consider
quick moving explorers to pillage down rather than bombard down a city.
* The idea is to have a war with every civ on the planet, if possible,
and with as many different types of units as possible (A real war is intended, not
just a psuedo-war. Chariots will be the toughest, and horseman not much better.)
The wars are recommended to be brief, around 20 turns, but not required.
* The Wheel must be the first tech researched, at full speed,
if you don't start with Wheel (see below)

Our civ? The Ottomans! (Other civs might be better actually, but these
guys should do quite well. Plus, I've never played them :P ) There are going
to be a few small changes, introduced after testing. We'll start being able
to build Scouts, and with Wheel instead of Masonry. Note we don't get a scout at
the start, but we can build them. Without the former our recon will be so poor
that we'll end up hopelessly behind in tech instead of just way behind. The latter
is so that we can have a chariot war (could never pull that off in test games)
The other small mod - use of the Watercolor Tileset. You don't
have to do anything special, it's installed with PtW automatically.

Civ: Ottomans (Industrious/Scientific, UU: Siphali 8/3/3 100 shields, some mods too)
Map: Standard, Pangaea (70%), 5 billion, normal temperate climate, sedentary barbs
Foes: 7 foes, none with a fast UU
Victory: Cultural and Space are disabled (No Russian space wins here :P )
Style Points: 1 for each civ we have a war with (7 max), 1 for each different
fast unit we use as best unit in a war, 7 max). 1 bonus pt for Conquest win.
So we're not handcuffed too much by the rules as far as warfare, but how many
style points can we snag? All 15? :hammer:

Roster: The following expressed some OW interest --
Anarres, Arizona_steve, Gothmog, JMB, Reagen. Also, RBP2 and RBP5 ended
recently (gulp), so there might be a few from there who want some revenge?!
I wouldn't mind a roster a little bigger than usual here, up to seven,
as long as the game moves along quickly. We'll be tighter on the time-limit
and skip rules for this game. If you're interested, please confirm here if
you want to join the MOW game. If you've gotten into another game already due
to my delay in starting this, my apologies - don't overcommit yourself.

=========

I'm going to go just a few turns, then pass right off. I made sure the map
was a true pangaea, and that there were horses nearby, but that's it.

We start on a river spot next to dyes with two BG next to us. On settling,
there are horses, a wheat, and a cow in the outer part of range, nice!
We start to road and irrigate toward the wheat, and send the scout south.
He very soon sees a hut and hits it for... a settler!! :P
Finally, a non-horrible start in one of my deity games.

Before you know it, it's 3450 BC. And we hit a hut for Ceremonial Burial.
Rome has Alphabet and Warrior Code, and lacks the Wheel. Unfortunately he
just learned Bronze. Legions. That's one civ to hit earlier rather than later!

That's enough to know the start is just fine, so I'll hand off.
Consider the two current build items as placeholders, pick what you want.
We're able to build rax and/or chariots at the capital.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-3500bc.jpg

Save file 3450bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-3450BC.zip)

Turn lengths will in general be 10turns, but our next leader can go 19 turns.
Roster and order to be finalized shortly.

Charis

I am interested.... if you'll have me ?

EDIT : I had a look at it :eek: and this way above my level sorry.... :(

Sounds exciting and I'd love to join, but....I'm already in enough SGs as it is, so I'll have to reluctantly pass.

I'm sure it'll be lots of fun, and I'll follow it closely.

-Sirp.

The game design looks good. I might have been tempted to give it a go, but I've been wrapping up commitments without taking on new ones lately, as I expect to be up to my eyeballs in MOO within a week. :)

Good luck.

- Sirian

Charis,
Just wanted to say I will be watching this game with great interest. Alas, my caliber of play isn't good enough to participate......yet. The Defiant game was a great read. Congrats to all of you for sticking to the variant rules in the face of overwhelming odds. :goodjob:
Matt

Foot units are looked down upon (silly grunts), too slow, and never ever allowed to leave the city they're built in.

OUCH - to insane for me. It looks like every city I capture that is hopelessly corrupt has to build its own defence without even being vet.

Charis, I wasn't listed, but I'm feeling like getting a win, with something a bit more straight-forward, after the RBP5 experience. I like pushing boundaries, but I like a bit of feeling good, occasionally, too.

Good luck with this one! I'll give moral support.

Arathorn

Charis, looks tough. I agree with LK that having to build a defender in corrupt cities will be a problem. But that just means lots of razing I guess. I was wondering how you would get into a Chariot war too, I never could in my tests either. Good luck, even with wheel it will be difficult. I am in two SG's right now (my limit), but if one finishes and there is still room here I'll ring you up again.

Looks tempting, but I've been itching to try a deity always war game, so I just started one (DAW1).

I think its going to be very tough to sqeeze a chariot war in there. That's such an important time to get settlers out and there's not much time before horseman appear.

I'll be watching closely and cheering you guys on. Good luck.

Charis, have you tried this at a lower level with success? I like the anti-infantry concept, espcially after playing the Inf2 game. Too bad this is a diety game. I think this game at Monarch would be difficult! Hmm, may have to try it. Maybe HOT3???? :lol:

Good luck! :)

Hotrod

Are there nothing but mice here? I will join you Charis, even if it means going down in flaming horse droppings. That is of course if you still want to press on.

I think AW is probably an easier variant than OW, as the AI is not quite adapt at bieng at war the whole game. However that initial beating can hurt.

Charis, if ou want me, give me until Tuesday before you add me in. I need to finish LK39 and get QSC-C2 posted.

Charis, I like the idea quite a bit and would love to give it a try. But the timing is simply not good for me, with two succession games running already and a fair amount of RL work to be done. Then there's this thing called MOO3 coming out this week that I have some small interest in trying out... ;)

Good luck finding a roster - how difficult can it be finding more people interested in trying a crazy variant on Deity? :crazyeye:

Charis,

I am still interested, but like Sulla, the timing really isn't good for me... (2 SGs at the moment (although, RBE6 might finish reasonably soon), my quals in ~ 2 weeks, and a trip to Japan in ~ 4 weeks).

If you get a large enough roster so that 1) the overall time commitment won't be too much, and 2) there would be enough people to take over when I go to Japan, I would still like to play...

JMB

Meldor: I would play if it were anything but deity essentially. Definetly and interesting concept but deity is not something I am experienced enough to join.

Hotrod

If enough spots are open I'll take one.

Since I think that mobile units are the way to go for conquest and ocillating war is one my prefered ways of waging fairly constant war, I should be right at home. ;) I must admit though that I would drop the rax at the capitol and go for a settler factory (5+ food available), letting all the new cities pickup the tab for military production and workers for connectivity .

I'm in pretty much the same boat as JMB. If enough people join such that the turns don't come fast and furiously, I'm in. Remember my standard disclaimer from the (P)OW discussions -- I'm a builder, not a warrior, at heart, so please be patient with me. :)

I would like to suggest that if we are going for all 15 style points that we consider the situation so that we don't stumble 'coming out of the blocks'.

This is deity, horseback riding could come very early by popping a hut or the quick pace of techs that will occur on a panagea. I would suggest that we not build barracks initially and immediately build as many chariots in new cities as we can before we get horseback riding (well once we have about a dozen this plan could be relaxed off). If a newly formed city can't get a road hooked up quick enough we would have to settle for a spearman (maybe warrior and a worker) that would then be used for MP. An early war should be waged mainly against warriors and archers, quick and clean. The capitol could stop spitting out settlers once we have a half dozen cities or so and then it could refocus on infrastructure and military needs. Once we do aquire horseback riding we could switch production over to barracks and switch over to more conventional methods.

Any comments?

Excellent comments, CB, in fact, I think I'm going to put you first in the line up :P The lack of cheap barracks, compared to the cost of chariots, and their low attack value, makes them about the only unit where you lose too much speed building rax first. I was thinking that if we had a brief chariot war where we whacked a pair of workers and a settler pair on turn one would be ideal. It would be a major blow to a neighbor AI, and we could fight a skirmish war on territory of our choice away from our cities, while we wait for them to talk. It would take a moderately small number of troops to do well, could happen VERY early, and would not ruin our expansion too much at all. I think we should start with the intention of going for all 15 pts, but not suicide to do so if events speak against it. It would probably make sense to have several scouts out there as well, to help keep us up or even ahead on tech, despite a lower number of cities. Perhaps go for HBR in 40 after the current reseach to 'block' it from huts, maybe even taking HBR as the spoils of our first war. In fact, it would be interesting if we could get the horse-based techs as peace concession from our wars - HBR (Chariot war), Chivalry (a late Horseback war), and Mil Tradition (a late Knight war).

@Lee -
>>> Foot units are looked down upon... and never ever allowed to leave the city they're built in.
>OUCH - too insane for me.

I take that as a compliment, thank you :hammer:
Look at it from the other side. This was close to being an *only* mounted unit game, but the use of real defenders in the city their built in is a concession TO sanity.

@Arathorn - I sure do hear you! If I hadn't said I would do this and held people off, I would have chosen something easier. In fact I'm likely to join a builder game with high fun value rather than challenge. (If you do have comments on our starting strat and/or chariot and horse wars on deity, speak up man)

@hotrod - I've tested it partially on emperor (quite doable) and slightly on deity where I won an initial skirmish war and didn't have time to test it later in the game.

@jmb - I was going to say hop in but then took a closer look at what you've got coming. Ouch! Study up on those quals man, and have a good trip :P

@sulla - I'm also looking forward to trying Moo. This might be the last SG I'll host in a while, to give that a fair shake. 'Beyond' that depends wholly on just how good or bad Moo3 turns out to be. I'll of course press on with any ongoing civ committments/SG's.

So far the roster is shaping up to be:
Charis, Cartouche Bee, meldor, skyfish, and reagan.
I would still like one or two more (partly to not overload reagan), and will consider there to still be open spots. Any others who've not responded should do so - whether immediately or if another SG finishes soon.

Much thanks to the others who chimed in and posted their well wished :love:

Charis

Some bits of advice:

- Build your initial city and at most ONE more before going towards war. Later cities cost WAY more in development time and lost shields than they provide for a long time (through the ancient age, usually, at least). In my no-tech experimental games, I found this to be critical to get going fast enough.

- Cities are better tribute in early wars than techs. Techs are easier to get through a zillion means than cities. Take as many cities for peace as you can possibly get. The earlier you attack, the more cities you can get, too. (I *think* the AI uses nearby resources/luxuries, happiness, city size, buildings, length of time in city, and total city culture as its main determining factors in valuing a city for peace.) Since you'll be building so few cities initially, these tribute cities will be important producers, you hope.

- Expect to autoraze and not capture. The AI will defend its capital with too many units to take easily (think 6ish good defenders) and will whip any other threatened city mercilessly. This actually helps with the cripple mentality, but it's not so useful for building yourself up.

- Horsemen do just fine against pikes, if you attack wisely and in numbers. Don't knock yourself out to get your 2nd war done ASAP.

- Overall, early you want fewer bigger cities. More cities leads to better overall strength, long-term, but short-term it's not as powerful. Your capital, especially, needs to hit 10 spt ASAP (ideally at size 5 or 6 and then doing a worker/settler immediately before/upon hitting size 7). Initial build order -- scout, granary (depending on food situation -- T-hawk's the master of knowing when to do this, IMO), chariot*4 or so, then maybe a settler, then chariots, with a barracks maybe thrown in sometime it fits shields best....

- I think blocking HBR with min research is a good idea -- maybe don't even get it in 40 turns. Hope/pray for good luck from huts -- much MUCH harder on deity than on emperor, however.

That's all I think of now.
Arathorn

OK, I got it.

I know it's tempting to allow the capitol to start producing 10 shields per turn ASAP and do a real real early war. My concern is the risk from counter attack (with zip for defense) and how much cash we have to spend to keep a growing city that size out of disorder on deity. However, if the early rounds develop in a way that a cheap war comes on a silver platter, I'll adjust accordingly. :) For now, I'm going to go for the settler factory, that city should be able to pump out a settler every four turns and those cities should be able to pump out a couple units each and then a rax. When we run out of prime sites we can let the capitol get up into the 15+ shields per turn (look at all those bonus grasslands), pump out horsemen every 2 turns. If we could position ourselves to be able to rush the Great Library and Sun Tzu, it will be a cake walk, but there are a few miles between here and there. ;)

I think we should go for a tighter build than normal. On diety, I think we will be close enough to AW to need the closer build.

Also, since we will not be able to shift defenders to help protect hard pressed cities artillary could be a big key to not losing them due to back RnG rolls. don't be afraid to pop-rush defense if needed.

I agree with Meldor on the dense build. Not ICS per se, but dense, not more than 3 tiles from one city to the next. Doing this to the extreme, with ICS and chariots in fact, has been covered in a post by Aeson...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20422

There are elements of it that are a different flavor of cheese (eg scout resource blocking), but it makes some good points anyway. He mentions capture of Pyramids and SunTzu as key elements, if you don't rush the latter with a GL.

In this game, I'm not against being cheap, as I tend to doubt strats like this commonly mentioned are really useful at deity. Just keep clear of exploits, and don't "needlessly" burn our rep.

Charis

EDIT -- I was thinking about it after the post, and Skyfish's edit matched my concern. A deity variant game is too deep, although it may not be too long before he gets there, if he keeps at it :P
That means an definite opening for a deity-lvl player. (I wonder how full the plates of Jaxom or Anarres are, or if they've been bloodied too much recently :P )

3450
Istanbul orders up a homeland scout to further recon efforts around the capitol and future city sites.

3400
We meet a Carathagian warrior. This prompts a round of trades, we get alphabet and 20 gold for the wheel from the Romans. Wheel and CB for Masonry and 10 gold from Carthage. Roman trades us pottery for masonry. Istanbul is now changed to produce 5 food per turn for growth.

3350
Zzzz.

3300
Istanbul scout -> warrior, yup, MP! Meet Spain trade warrior code for wheel.

3250 -5
Homeland scout going to the east finds a stack of 6 Carthage warriors. <gulp> Glad we are friends.
Meet France, trade wheel and 10 gold for a worker.
Lux 30%

3200
Yep Carthage has about 10 warriors running around like ants.
The deserted hut.

3150
Istanbul warrior -> warrior, yup, another MP!
Edrine scout -> worker in 5 turns.
Lux 20%
Trade 3 techs and 85 gold for 2 workers.

3100
Pop hut for Mysticism

3050
Sell Mysticism to France for 105.

3000 -10
Hook up dyes.

2950
Sell wheel to England for 60.

2900
Edrine worker -> spearman.
Lux 10.

2850
Rush the granary for 2 pop.!
Meet Scandinavia, they need alphabet but they have nothing.

2800
Istanbul granary -> settler

2750 -15
2710
We trade mysticism and 30 gold for worker from Spain.

2670
Lux to 20%. Roman now have iron working so they can start making legions.

2630
2590
We trade mysticism and 40 gold for worker from Romans.



Edrine should change to a chariot as soon as the road is finished. I really think that we should pound out the settlers and at least get the prime spots, it will go fast from here. I've left the workers in groups that make functional use of the industrious trait; roads in one turn and mines in two turns.

I've marked likely spots for cities with white dots. The 4 most southern spots are making use of rivers for trade and defense. I've got a settler (no warrior escort? they can't leave home) over by the most east site, this is to position a city for an attack on Carthage. The city to the far west with 2 haystacks and 2 game in range should also be a fairly high priority site and it lends to the ability to acquire the ivory in that area.

[Edit:] As per my notes that follow, the dot east of Edrine should be discarded. We will have enough defense issues without allowing the AI to attack us from mountains and hills, if at all possible.


RBP6 2590BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6_MOW_2590_BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Osman2590BC.JPG

I am interested in joining. As far as experience/ability is concerned, I am winning regularly on emperor and am moving up to diety. The combat and political rules for this game are not too far from how I like to play anyway.

It has been a few months since I was in a SG, but want to get back into them. So if you would have me, I would love to join.

Ridgelake

I will assume I am next and will begin playing tonight unless told otherwise.

Looks like I jumped the gun, unless everyone is MOOing around. :)

I'm going to throw out a few more ideas for discussion.

Since we have so little latitude with defense, I think we should avoid building cities next to mountains and hills in the future. So on my dot map disregard the dot east of Edrine. That would have probably been the last city I would have built on that map sequence anyway. The idea behind no cities beside mountains and hills is that when we defend with our offense we can maneuver on clear land as much as possible and use terrain to our advantage as much as possible. Remember in clear land we can let an opposing stack walkup to us, hit them and then move out of their range.

I still think we should try and get 6-8 cities and at least 10-12 chariots before we get horseback riding, then build barracks (unless for stack defense in a war).

Once our nucleolus of cities is established, the capitol can switch over to military production or infrastructure.

Meldor, you're correct, tnx.

Current roster and order:
Cartouche Bee
Meldor
(Skyfish)
Reagan
(Ridgelake)
Charis

Skyfish, I wasn't trying to boot, but was interpreting your post. For you and Ridgelake, if you consider the game parameters carefully, and think that you can handle it, you both are in. This game is supposed to me 'medium difficulty' (as far as deity variants go!) and was at one point intended to have a flavor that encouraged good players who haven't necessarily had a lot of deity military experience to play alongside folks who know no fear taking it to the deity AI. With CB and Meldor on board, we're in good shape in that department! :hammer:

The roster might yet see one more addition, to avoid overload of some of the busier players here, or to bring on someone who wanted to play but needed to finish another SG first.

Thanks,
Charis

BTW CB, I think there will definitely be some 'MOO'ing going on tonight and the next few days, myself included :P

On defense, one thing that will help is to get roads built around the cities, even if we don't improve the tile. This will allow our "fast" defenders to hit first and get back to a RAX without leaving themselves exposed. That way we can hit slower units 2 squares away and still retreat to safety.

Yes, meldor, when in doubt 'hit and run'. Flush units out of cities into the open so you know what your up against. If the AI isn't sending sortie's out to harrass you when your at war with them then they are starting to get into lack of unit trouble.

Charis, I thank you for the opportunity to join. I know that this game will be the most challenging that I have attempted to date. But I think that I should be ok, particularly given the extra time and attention afforded a 10-20 turn SG versus a solo game. If I make too many weedy moves, I will step out so that I don't further polute your good game.

Thank you again,

Ridge

2590 BC (Pre-turn)
Nothing to change.
(I) Carthage begins the Colossus. I hope they finish it for us.

2550 BC (1)
Change production in Edrine to our first chariot.
(I) The Vikings begin the oracle for us.

2510 BC (2)
Bursa is founded on river to the east, begins our second chariot. Lux back up, we are at 7.1.2. Scandinavia has IW now. Workers are building a road toward the site with the three game and 2 wheat.
(I) Nada.

2470 BC (3)
Woker movement
(I) Nada

2430 BC (4)
Spain shows up with writing, however it is tto expensive right now to do any deals. Go to 6.1.3 for one turn until settler pops next turn.
(I) Istanbul finishes the settler and starts another. Edrine finishes our first Chariot and starts another. We enter our golden age....No? WEll ok maybe not.

2390 BC (5)
Settler on the way to western most spot.
(I) Nada

2350 BC (6)
We trade Lizzie 119g and contact with Carthage for Writing. Writing to Scandinavia for IW. Start research on Math. A Roman warrior is getting close to the empty city of Bursa so I wake up our loan Chariot and send him that way. We have iron outside of Edrine. I won't hook it up yet. MM Istanbul for Settler in two and growth in two.
(I) Nada

2310 BC (7)
The chariot arrives at Bursa and fortifies.
(I) The Roman warrior now acts disinterested.

2270 BC (8)
Settler reaches his new home. Rome and Scandinavia both have HBR now.
(I) Istanbul completes a settler and starts another.

2230 BC (9)
Iznik is settled at the two wheats. The new settler heads south.

2190 BC (10)
Worker movement.

The settler is one step away from his new home. We might want to put the next one by the ivory and then backfill the last two.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6_MOW_2190_BC.zip)


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RPB6-2190BC.JPG

Is Skyfish in or out?

I got it !

Pre-turn : no change.
1-2150 : Only Rome and Viking up one tech on us and it's HBR, hum no thanks I'll pass on that one...workers move to irrigate wheat in Iznik moving settler towards the Ivory, there is a roman pair going towards the Ivory and I want to get there first, next settler will go to that site Meldor was after.
Lux go up to 20%.
2-2110 : no deals possible. Keeping Edrine and Bursa on Chariots.
ibt : english building colossus
3-2070 : moving workers to build road to our Ivory town. Still no new techs on the market. Move lux to 30% for one turn before settler.
4-2030 : still no deals, it is getting unpleasant as we have close to 250g and I am sure we will have to cave in to a demand from an AI. Settler produced.
Lux back to 10% we make 14gpt.
5-1990 : 2 settlers moving into position next turn, still no deals. Carthage is still down Mysticism and Pottery !
ibt : there comes the demand Carth wants Mysticism, instead of money. Everyone has it so why not, you can have it Hannibal. He is now Polite towards us.
6-1950 : Keep all scouts on fog busting duty, will generate good money when Map Making comes around. Vikings has Philosophy at 2nd civ price, no thanks, nothing else is available
for a "2fer".
Spain, Carthage and France are struggling, Rome, Vikings and England are ahead.
7-1910 : Establish Izmit (on Ivory) and Uskudar (on river in forest between Edrine and Iznik).
England has Math ! Still too expensive for just Philosophy, will see what else comes.
8-1870 : moving around. England still has a monopoly on Math. Ivory connected.
ibt : Carthage completes the Colossus !
9-1830 : OK now there is a deal on the table : Buy Map Making from England for 195g + 6gpt. Then exchange MM + 60g to Rome for Mathematics and Philosophy.
So again we are only behind HBR and still have 46g and 13gpt.
10-1790 : Settler is now in place for next city. Carthage is very much behind and we should again expect a demand from them soon.
There is cultural pressure on Bursa, I would change it to a Temple in a solo game but leave that up to next leader.
The site CB marked between Edrine and Istanbul is still free and should be settled ASAP with our next settler, we now need some tighter build.
I would then combine a forrestry operation Istanbul with building barracks, as most good sites will be established and we should have a our Chariot war sooner rather than later ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW,_1790_BC.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-1790bc.jpg

Skyfish, I think I would have placed Izmit, 2 squares over to the west, so that it could work the two bonus grassland and have access to the Ivory. That other settler if placed where your heading him is going to mean that we miss out on the one game square, until we have some culture over in that area. Those bonus squares are important to get in deity, cause they erode some of the AI advantage at this level. Every bit helps. :)

The culture pressure at Bursa at this point in the game is really not there, none of the neighboring Carthage cities have any extra culture at this time. If we were about to make a huge dive at Carthage, a temple might help us roll their territorial borders but it may eventually just be easier to take cities from them by force rather than fence with culture.

For Izmit : indeed it is not the ideal site but I got pressured by the Roman settler, I was not in the right position, and the chance was too big to lose the site entirely :(
I had no real choice as to where I could establish Izmit.
As for the 2nd settler, I just misread your dot map and intended him to be by your dot, not where it is now.

Hopefully the next leader can correct this !

I won't be able to play/post until very late tonight or sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, and with the caveat that I haven't had a chance to view the game file, I think this may be a good time to decide on our first target. I presume that much of my turn will be dedicated to setting us up for war and that we'll declare either at the end of my turn or during Ridgelake's turn.

What's good about attacking Carthage? Well, they are close, are connected by roads, are building right on top of us, appear to be in a weaker position than Rome, and are isolated such that we should be able to hold our territorial gains easier than anything we'd get from Rome. What's bad about Carthage as a target? Time we spend fighting them is more time our neighbor to the south, Rome, has to build its strength. Oh yeah, one other thing -- NuMes.

What's good about attacking Rome? They are reasonably close to us and it would be nice to have the extra border cushion between them and our core cities. We could also use the war as an opportunity to somewhat slow down one of the most powerful civs. We may be able to catch them without (m)any legions, too. What's bad about it? Time spent fighting Rome is time Carthage will have to dig itself out of its power deficit. We'll also open our rear to attack from Carthage. We do not yet have a southern road network. It likely would be easier for Rome to bring Carthage in as an ally than vice-versa (because of the apparent power difference). Oh yeah, one other thing -- Legions.

So, how did we manage to end up next to two 3-defense-unit civs?! My preference is to go after Carthage first, but I'm not dead set on that. What's everyone else think?

I was wondering if it makes sense to discuss who our chariot (and horse) victims will be. The three closest civs are Carthage, Rome, and France. Some things going through my mind are the UUs of Carthage and Rome.

The Numadian soldiers of Carthage and the Legions of Rome are both 3 def units. Killing those guys with 1 attack units will be...challenging. Likewise, a win by one of those units will kick off their GA. Any attack on these guys will have to be very quick or we could very easily get buried. Though getting these civs to burn their GA now might not be a bad plan....as long as its in peace.

So my thinking is that we should go after France with the chariots. It will be slower to respond (further away), will have lower def units, and wont give their economy a GA boost. Then after we get horses, we go after either Carthage or Rome.

Your thoughts?

Definitely Carthage....if it was choice between those 2 !
If I remember corrrectly Charis' remarks, the wars can be very short and we are going for this first war just for the style point and complying with our variant.
On the other hand, the ONLY advantage of Chariots are the 2 tile move right ?
So my idea would be to actually go and hit France with one big Chariot SoD knowing :
1. they don't have 3-defence units
2. no horsemen to come hit us back in a big way or quickly enough.

:D

edit : hey I just posted the same idea as Ridge at the same time, cool at least my idea is not that crazy ;)

Reagan, it looks like we cross-posted :)

I was also wondering if we should try to plug the hole between Izmit and Pisae. I suspect that the Romans will likely fill it before we can get a settler there, but its worth considering after filling the hole south of Bursa.

IMO, so please treat this as discussion.

I think we should build only one more settler at this point and make that city north of Istanbul. Then Istanbul can build a barracks, chariots and after the war a temple. Don't worry about open space, if the AI fills it, it just gives us targets, let's not give them to many easy targets.

Carthage should probably be the first target, let's not get way out of position, we don't necessarily have to take a city, but it's still early and we should be fighting mostly warriors. Charis had mentioned watching for a warrior settler pair, that is probably a good target and then finesse them. We should have about a dozen chariots before we get into a skirmish cause there will be some reprisals at this range.

After we end a 5 or 6 turn war we should then upgrade all the chariots to horsemen and look at a next target.

I also think this is a good point to stop building warriors, lets stick to the more defensive upgrade path for MP's.

Originally posted by Skyfish
For Izmit : indeed it is not the ideal site but I got pressured by the Roman settler, I was not in the right position, and the chance was too big to lose the site entirely :(
I had no real choice as to where I could establish Izmit.
As for the 2nd settler, I just misread your dot map and intended him to be by your dot, not where it is now.

Hopefully the next leader can correct this !

OK, I just saw how your roads connected to that city and figured that was your plan from the 'git go'.

CB's right -- we're probably going to be facing a lot of warriors in the Roman/Carthaginian border towns. If the chariots next to Bursa have movement left, they should be able to move next to the two Carthaginian cities to see how they are defended. Can someone check on that and post the result so we can better refine our discussion? I will duplicate whatever moves you make so as not to create any implication of cheating. BTW, an attack on a settler/defender pair, rather than a city, would be just fine by me.

I just don't see an attack on France as being strategically sound. We would be sending most of our units far away from home, where they would be unable to help with homeland defense (remember, our foot soldiers can't leave the city) and would be extra turns away from upgrading to horsemen after the war concludes.

A few random thoughts:

- I see your point about attacking France now, CB and Reagan.
- Any idea who/where the last civ is?
- Rome is really hemmed in between us, France and Spain.
- Embassies with France and Spain might be worth a thought before we tangle with Rome. I don't know how affordable it would be to bring those civs into a war with Rome, but it would sure open up a lot of fronts for Rome.

I agree with CB about not building more cities at this point.

What I saw from Carthage during my turn, reagan, is that they had loads, literally dozens of warriors and spears in their territory :eek: .
There is a settler/warrior pair right by Istanbul right now...

The repraisal from Carthage could be quite devastating, whereas the one from France will be easily manageable, that is why I had the idea of going after France.

I think the last civ is actually on an island :crazyeye:

Originally posted by Ridgelake
A few random thoughts:

- I see your point about attacking France now, CB and Reagan.
- Any idea who/where the last civ is?
- Rome is really hemmed in between us, France and Spain.
- Embassies with France and Spain might be worth a thought before we tangle with Rome. I don't know how affordable it would be to bring those civs into a war with Rome, but it would sure open up a lot of fronts for Rome.

Who the last civ is can be determined by looking at the F10 screen. The answer to "where is civ X" when most of a pangea map is uncovered is: probably castaway on a deserted island somewhere. If so, their relative strength can range anywhere from super-strong (left to their own devices on a big island with fertile ground to settle) to pathetic (tucked away on a very small, desert/tundra-filled island). Sending a boat or two to look for them can often prove to be lucrative from a tech/contact trading standpoint.

We need to be extremely careful about signing alliances, especially when in "skirmish" mode. Unless we're going to punt our reputation, which I think would be extremely foolish, we would be locked into a twenty-turn war if an alliance is formed. Our chariot and horesemen "wars" should prove to be extremely short and will not lend themselves well to alliances.

I would not sign anything with either France or Spain they are very weak and would not help at all...As you say reagan it would lock us down for much too long.

Originally posted by Skyfish

There is a settler/warrior pair right by Istanbul right now...



We should shadow that little bugger. Try not to let him start a city, maybe even surround him or escort him over to a place where we want a couple workers. :D Once we have our dozen chariots, start the war. Take the settler warrior combo, then let them come to us and pick them off when we have a clean shot and an escape route. We should at least have a barracks or almost complete barracks in Bursa, before we pull the trigger. But we should be able to control this situational war.

By chopping that forest down in Istanbul we could have a barracks there in just 3/4 turns, the Bursa barracks is just 5/6 turns away if it switches now.
CB : when you say 12 chariots is that counting the 4 or 5 of them we have now as MP in some of our villages ? or you mean a moveable tile of aro. 12 ?
I would say it would take us another 15/20 turns before we get that many...

Originally posted by Skyfish

CB : when you say 12 chariots is that counting the 4 or 5 of them we have now as MP in some of our villages ? or you mean a moveable tile of aro. 12 ?


Well I'm still thinking along the line of my post at the top of this page. Shadowing the warrior settler with maybe 3 chariots just gives us a guaranteed 'good' target to start the war. With Carthage having at least 10 warriors you don't want to defend with just 6 chariots in Bursa. I think we have to go down the road a bit further and see how the game develops.

As it's been noted we are sided by two fairly well heeled UU units. We need to pick the time and place of wars with care and a high degree of probability for success. Reagan has a good idea about putting out sorties to determine enemy strengths. Then act based on the intelligence that we gather. Carthage just started a wonder so their main city is occupied in a non war effort building, that is something that we can use to our advantage in a war also, they are tied up for a while. [Edit:] I see Carthage finished that wonder, so they will really be rocking in commerce. Colossus and a deity AI could mean trouble on the tech front.

Some really good discussion here!

I agree with most points made here. Rome later with Horses or Knights, the legions are too tough unless they have none and we could steal their only Iron. France makes a lot of sense if we want a small skirmish to net say two workers and a small tribute payment. It might also mean French blood that the Romans can smell.

Carthage will be coming after us, period. They have no other one to expand 'against.' They're most definitely either target one or two. If we killed enough warriors and kept the pressure in their territory rather than defending, we could hurt them quite a bit and even demand a city for peace. That would be near ideal, setting them up to be wiped out at some point, giving us the whole northern part of our continent all to ourselves.

So I wouldn't oppose either France or Carthage, depending on the specifics of the situation - settlers and counterattacks.
btw, if you 'pull defenders' out of a town to get your 12, Rome will either demand tribute or (worse) just attack. That doesn't mean "don't", just be aware.

If I had to pick, that *warrior* settler pair (as opposed to a NuMe-settler) seems too juicey to pass up.

Good luck Reagan
Charis

(0) 1790 – I do not intend for the following to sound harsh, but after surveying our situation I see some issues. We have two native workers. We have a city not connected to the road network. We have three workers ready to do lumberjacking duty on a non-river forest when a river forest is immediately adjacent and will be needed for irrigation to the limited-to-one-food-for-now city. They’ll have to be moved next turn. The Istanbul cow square is mined, which costs us a MM opportunity that would increase our income. It's not a big deal, but little things like that add up over time. Once we stop building settlers it won't matter as much, so I likely won't change it now. We’re running 10% luxuries, which is 100% more than we need. We’re also running 10% science, which is likely fruitless, because (1) there’s no way we’ll get Construction in forty turns before one of the other civs gets it and (2) there’s certainly no way it’ll take forty turns for Code of Laws to be researched and we’re not going to want to delay the start of Republic research while we wait for our min. science research on Construction to conclude. Therefore, science is cut to 0%. We start with 59gp in our treasury. After a round of map trades, we now have 124gp and knowledge of the full world map. We could also trade our map for HBR, but that would keep us from building chariots. :( Bursa and Edrine swap to spears to serve as MPs so their chariots can move into battle when the time is right. Izmit switches to spear from warrior so it can take advantage of the lumberjacking that would have otherwise been wasted. Carthage has NuMes in its border cities. D’oh! Now that we know the full map, we can see that “border city” is a loose term because those are actually primary cities for Carthage. They are really packed in and are out of real estate. They may very well bring the fight to us soon.

(1) 1750 -- Joanie’s warrior moves to our preferred new city spot. We’ll wait until he passes by. Carthage’s settler pair is heading north of Istanbul. Fine. That’ll make the city easy pickings when we declare war on Carthage now or in the future. Another settler pair is getting ready to cross our territory, so we can pick them off later if we so choose. Carthage starts Oracle.

(2) 1725 – Istanbul: settler->worker. Uskudar: warrior->spear (chariot pre-build).

(3) 1700 – Joan demands IW and I give it to her (she has no money anyway). Bursa: spear->chariot. Aydin founded, starts warrior MP.

(4) 1675 – Vikes complete Oracle. Istanbul: worker->chariot. Edrine: spear->chariot. Iznik: chariot->spear. Carthage founds Rusicade north of Istanbul. :smoke:

(5) 1650 – The Americans (good ol’ Honest Abe and crew) are separated by one coastal square to the southeast of our landmass. They could have a pretty good sized homeland, given all of the fog over there. It’s too far for us to send a boat and hope to establish contact before anyone else does. Instead, I park our scout as close as possible and hope to make contact with a passing American ship. It’s pretty tight, but Antalya is established on the coastal river square west of Iznik.

(6) 1625 – zzz

(7) 1600 – Istanbul: chariot->chariot. We get the FP build suggestion. Bursa: chariot->chariot. I was/am sorely tempted to build a galley in Bursa and see if we can actually win the race to find America, while earning some gp selling our map each turn. Lizzie has CoL now. Iznik actually gets the lumber shields (even though Izmit was using the square at the time), so Izmit swaps to warrior.

(8) 1575 – Izmit: warrior->spear. Aydin: warrior->chariot. The Carthaginian settler pair turns around and heads home. Ladies and Gents, we have our first target! Our chariots begin moving into position. Bursa keeps its chariots in town for offensive defense.

(9) 1550 – Istanbul: chariot->chariot. Edrine: chariot->spear. Iznik: spear->chariot.

(10) 1525 – Lizzie completes the Pyramids. Carthage’s settler pair starts moving southeast (away from us) and we have ten chariots with two due next turn, so the time to strike appears to be now. Charge! After one dead and one redlined chariot, the third one takes out the steroid-enhanced warrior and captures two Carthaginian slaves! Unfortunately, previous sorties showed that Rusicade is guarded by a NuMe, so I’m leaving it alone and figure the rest of the chariots will be used for attacking defense.

Looking forward: Carthage has a warrior drifting around just outside Izmit in the plains within the forest “U,” so I left a chariot down there. After Istanbul completes its chariot, it should swap to barracks to take advantage of the lumberjacking. Be careful of fighting across the river at Bursa and make sure not to leave any chariots on the border. So long as Carthage brings warriors at us, we are going to get a free shot at them as they cross into our territory. That’s where our fast units will be handy. If they have a lot of horses and/or use NuMes on offense, we might be in some trouble, so I hope my starting the war wasn't :smoke: .

Question: now that we’ve begun our chariot skirmish, is there any rule prohibiting us from trading for HBR and then beginning a horse-building program while still at war with Carthage? I intentionally held our cash in reserve pending resolution of this question. If it’s within the spirit of the rules, we might want to upgrade some of our chariots and start building horses as soon as the rax completes. That could be the difference between simply holding our ground and potentially taking Rusicade. If this plan isn’t OK, then we need to spend some cash and establish embassies with everyone but Carthage.

Good luck and have fun, Ridgelake! :hammer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6MOW1525BC.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/mow1525bc.JPG

It was my impression that to get the style point we just can't engage horsemen in this war. We could go for HBR and then just battle with the chariots that we have. it seems to me that we suld be building on the cheap here and then upgrade after the war, assuming we can win the war, we save the style point.

But we may have to drop the style point anyway and focus on ways to win this war so it will really just be up to Ridgelake to see what can be done with the situation. If any sort of sustained attack is mounted against Bursa without a barracks we may not be able to heal quick enough to fend it off. To attack Rusicade we have to divide our forces, so if you go that route be real careful, it might be better to play this out with Rusicade as the prize.

Now that I look at it more closely, I agree with you about the prohibition against using horsemen in this war/skirmish if we want the style point. Given that, I vote in favor of continuing to produce chariots, not going after targets outside our territory (those NuMes are just too tough), and making peace w/concessions (HBR, for starters) when Carthage will talk. Then we can upgrade to horsemen and take on Carthage again after the treaty expires.

Overheard at a sauna in Istanbul...

'Hey seargeant, "What is the difference between a consultant and a solution provider?" The sgt thinks about it carefully and answers, "A consultant gives advise or sets a direction, but seldom leaves anything in place for the one who actually has to lead the project and figure out what to do. Usually, as soon as a difficult decision is actually made, he has left town." The young soldier nodded, and wondered why a despot on his very last day in office would declare war, then leave town... ;)

The sgt went on to say, "There is more to a war than good timing. You need objectives, need to know WHY you're going to war, what you hope to achieve, and how you'll know when to stop."

A nice turn reagan, but an awkward handoff at best. :P
(I wouldn't have given Joan squat either, given that she was in the running for most likely target)

I would try to hit Rusicade, and quickly, with enough forces that it dies in one turn. It should fall (an autoraze) quickly, leaving us able to focus full on the 'front'. (Re-reads the part where a NuMe is there. If just one, a regular, and we have vets (do we?) you would want to hit it with about 9 and expect to lose 3-4.)
You might want to hit that long warrior standing outside of Leptis Magna. You would even see what guards Magna.)

For a chariot war, chariots must be the 'highest' fast unit we use. But it's gravy, not a rule, so use what you need to. Ideally, razing a city, getting two workers, killing some warriors and pillaging some roads will get us a peace inside 10 turns and demand HBR as a concession. That would be stylish :P

It seems to me that after this, with Carthage furious, economically strong, and with no room to expand, always a second front we would need to worry about even if we chose another target, we go back in subsequent wars and wipe them out completely. It might be a second war with horses doing more than superficial damage, then a decimating war with Knights.

Good luck,
Charis

Point of reference, zachiel posted a stack combat calculator. on his website, Zachriel.com.

12 regular chariots going up against 2 fortified NuMe, has a 76% chance of sucess. If you attack with 8 on 1, you have an almost 88% chance of sucess which is quite high. If you attack with 8 on 2, you have an about 42% chance of sucess which is quite low.

It would be nice to come out of the war with 20 or so chariots which would then upgrade to a nice squad. 20 regular horsemen have a 100% chance of beating down 2 fortified NuMe, or legions. ;)

[edit:] Looks like some changes to the calculator settings changed the results of my original post so, I've edited according to the current results of the calculator. Note, if you start an attack (perhaps with sortie to investigate;)) as you learn how many defenders are actually present you can get an idea if you should continue the attack or not.

Nice story, Charis. :)

Our objectives/desired achievement and when to quit: (1) to knock out out the settler pair while they were in our territory, (2) to get our debilitating "chariot war" out of the way so we can start using more powerful forces, (3) and to fight well enough thereafter to get a concession (i.e., when to quit).

Why now? The settler pair was departing away from us and towards Carthage. I wanted to strike while they were still on the road net so as to allow our surviving chariots to return home quicker.

I understand your point and agree the handoff was somewhat awkward. I'm still pretty new to SGs and am apparently still not completely familiar with the etiquette/nuances of this format. Should I have stopped in the middle of my tenth turn and posted the game with the intent that we all vote on where to go from there?

It's great that we're talking strategy and I hope we continue to do that. :goodjob:

By the way, we are in the process of building our first barracks, so we don't have any vets yet.

I would advise against chasing that warrior outside of Leptis. He's a veteran and fortified on a forest tile, which means it'll likely cost at least 1-2 dead/redlined chariots and, even when one wins, we'll have an injured chariot in Carthage's territory, which will be very likely killed inter-turn. I'd prefer we amass a few more chariots, allow the injured to heal, fight a defensive war within our own borders until we get more chariots, sue for peace/HBR, then do a mass upgrade. We should have 4-5 more spare chariots by that time and, according to CB's helpful post, should be able (at a minimum) to knock out Rusicade's defenses with horses.

Does the calculator take into account that the NuMe will likely upgrade to Elite status following our multiple attacks ?

Originally posted by Skyfish
Does the calculator take into account that the NuMe will likely upgrade to Elite status following our multiple attacks ?

Yes, it also takes into account all defensive modifiers and you can even blitz with tanks. It can really help a warmonger know how much forces to take to a battle and if you underestimate the number of defenders in a city, when to bail and fight another day. :)

I have the file and will try to play by Sunday night, at the latest.

Without opening it up yet, my thought would be to try to take out Rusicade ASAP, and then brace for the onslaught in Bursa. Sue for peace (with extraction) as soon as they acknowledge our envoy.

I agree with Charis that The NuMe Factory will be the desired opponent for the next several wars. Cleaning up that front will help immensely when we take on the world. A nice FP in the middle of their territory would also be a nice addition.

Having looked in the file, I dont think that we can adequately hit Rusicade now and still defend Bursa from the dozen + warriors/spears that will soon be descending upon us. I am going to focus on more of a defensive war and try to sue for a quick peace.

Sultan Ridgelake I is awoken by one of his servants.

“Sir! Wake up! The previous Sultan has departed and you are needed to lead us!”
“Great! Lets go see what is happening in our lands. Call in the advisors immediately!”
“Sir, the general is waiting for you right now. We are freshly at war with the Carthaginians. I will summon the others immediately.”

Ridgelake goes to meet with the general. “Give me a report on our war status!”

“Sir, we just captured a settler and warrior escort. We have 3 chariots awaiting orders on what to attack next. We have 2 more wounded ones that can be available soon. We have several more under construction. In Bursa, we have 3 chariots and a spear. On the western front, there is an undefended town with foreign troops only a 2 days’ march away. And there is a Carthaginian warrior just outside of our area of surveillance.”

“Tell me about the Carthaginian forces to the east.”

:”Well Sir, there are over a dozen warriors and spears swarming around in their territory that we know of. There have also hooked up their horse farm, so they likely have a number of horses as well. We are uncertain whether they have their iron source hooked up yet.”

“So you are telling me that there are probably over a dozen troops that are going to attack Bursa or another of our towns in the next few days? And we have no barracks, no walls, and only 1 spearman and 3 chariots in Bursa right now?”

“That is what I am telling you, Sir.”

“Okay, here is what we are going to do. That chariot that Bursa is producing right now, change that to another spear. Start on walls next and see if we can get that up before the onslaught comes. Then lets start a barracks and see if some leather incentive might help us build it. In the mean time, send out one of the chariots for intelligence. Also, scramble one of the wounded chariots back to Edrine so that it is not completely naked of offense. Also, this chariot can go to the hills to the east and scout out that area before moving forward to pillage some. On the western front, move the chariot from Izmit to Izmik so that it can cover both Izmit and Antalya. Now, see if the other advisors are available.”

In comes the domestic advisor. “Reporting for duty, Sir!” “Well, give me a report then.”

“Well, we have made a lot of progress at improving our lands. But we have not had enough labor to get everything as we want it. There are still a number of citizens working areas that have not been improved. “

“Well, you know what to do, go do it! Now send in the foreign minister!” I reply.

In strolls a darling little number with swaying hips and sultry red lips and a beret. “Perhaps I can persuade you to start some embassies. This will help my spy network and also improve our relations with the other nations.”

“Haven’t I met you before, like maybe in Civ 2 or something? Oh never mind. I don’t need persuading, I need facts. So you also say that both Lizzie and Ceasar have Code of Laws. Lets wait for another tech to become available and see about trading for both of them. I will consider your embassy request.

And so Ridgelake I begins his reign as Sultan of the Ottomans.

IT 4 warriors descend upon our scouting chariots. One is taken down without scratching the attacking warrior. 5 warriors are just outside of our lands right now. Another warrior comes out of Rusicade to Istanbul. Carthage (and the Vikings) start building the Great Lighthouse. :)

By Izmit, the French, roman, and Viking warrior turn away from the undefended Anyalya. The Carthage warrior appears out of the fog.

1500 BC (1) Move the scounting chariot across border to Lepis Magna to pillage. Move chariot from Iznik back to Iznit.

Our newly made chariot in Istanbul take 1 HP off the warrior before it retreats. I scramble a Bursa chariot which kills the warrior and promotes J Our first vet unit! I move the old redlined chariot and the new Istanbul chariot towards Bursa.

IT Lizzie demands our territory map and 36 gold. I am tempted to send her away, but she might bring in closer friends to start a new front. I cave but will spend our gold on embassies to lower the demand threat.

We lose our sortie chariot. 4 regular warriors show up outside Bursa with 4 more just outside our borders.

1475BC (2) Sell WM around for a few gold.

Establish embassy in Rome for 33 gold. They have no iron hooked up (no legions) and 2 horses. Rome is size 2 and only has a temple. Only a couple of defenders as well. No luxuries. They do have a worker which I buy for WM and 120 gold.

Embassy in London for 53 gold. No strat resources. Only pyramids built there. A couple of defenders and a settler in town. They are building a worker, so lets keep an eye open for a purchase opportunity.

Embassy in Paris for 43 gold. Horses and a lux. 2 defenders, building a settler. A temple.

We are down to 107 gold so I hold off there. I want some currency available for a tech swap when the time comes.

Carthage not acknowledging our envoy yet.

I don’t attack the carthage warriors yet. I want to see if they will impale themselves on our spears, over a river.

IT All of the carthage warriors run to Leptis Magna. The 4 stack is just outside of our territory. I wonder if they are moving towards Edrine? It is about to finish its second spear. I will move it to barracks next. Our chariot is scouting and can give us good warning of a warrior SOD comes that way.

1450 BC (3) Istanbul completes another chariot. I start a barrack to take on the trees that are about to be cut down. Due in 4 without the trees.

Bursa will complete its walls next turn. I seriously consider tempting fate and switching to a rax. But I want to be safe rather than sorry.

No new techs out there. So I buy the English worker for 115 gold and WM.

I attack the stack of 4 warriors with 2 chariots. We split wins, with our loss dieing instead of retreating.

IT Walls complete in Bursa, Rax started. Forrest harvested by Istanbul and applied to the rax. It is a bonus grassland J. Spear complete in Edrine, rax started. I think they are coming this way. The stack moved in that direction.

Vikings complete the Great Lighthouse in Bergen.

Spain shows up with Currency. We cannot buy it yet.

1425BC (4) I send a 2 chariot sortie into Carthage to pillage. 2 roads down. I see that they are trying to road their iron.

Sell WM around for a few gold. Lizzie will sell us CoL at 3rd civ for 14 GPT and 43 gold. I decline right now.

IT Here come the carthage warriors. 10 of them. 6 towards Edrine, 4 towards Istanbul. We did scare away the worker on their iron mountain. A carthage galley is seen outside Rusicade.

1400BC (5) I swap Edrine from rax to walls. Due in 3. This will be perfect timing for their mini-sod. Our scouting chariot attacks their mini-sod on grassland outside Sabratha, wins and promotes. He retreats backwards towards Edrine with his remaining movement.

Our pillaging two chariots get one more tile and collect the worker who had been on iron mountain. There is no realistic way that I can get him out of carthage without being recaptured. So I disband him.

Sell WM around.

IT. A warrior from Leptis Magna attacks our pillager and loses. We are redlined, though. The warrior sods retreat. I guess they don’t like being pillaged.

The galley moved through Rusicade and towards Aydin. Aydin chariotà chariot. Istanbul rax -> chariot

1375BC (6) Move chariots to scout the warrior sods. I also pillage some more. I now have broken the roads so that the Carthage cities are in pairs. Leptis Magna and Sabratha are unhooked from the rest of the nation, as is Utica and Hippo.

Sell around WM. Still cant buy Currency. Carthage wont acknowledge our envoy.

A chariot picks off one of the 4 warriors outside Leptis Magna and promotes.

Edrine switched back to Rax.

IT Vikings start great wall.

Carthage impales 2 warriors on a harassing chariot and promotes him to elite. An archer attacks him and forces a retreat.

Galley moves 2 squares N of Aydin.

1350BC (7) More pillaging.

Vet chariot takes out archer.

Tradewise, things heat up. Ragnar shows up with construction, currency and CoL. Spain does as well. England and Rome have currency but not construction.

So we buy construction from Spain @ 3rd for 100gp plus 25 gpt. Construction to England for currency, 65 gold and TM. Construction to Rome for CoL and WM. They have no gold. They would have thrown in HBR, but we still want chariots.

Carthage will talk to us. They offer a 6gpt and worker. They wont give up Rusicade. They will give up the worker and HBR if we kick in a bit of gold. I decide to wait because I want to attack one of their NuMes to set off their GA. Then I will get peace.

IT. Three of our pillagers are attacked and we lose two. I will use 1 to start their GA

Spanish and English start the GW.

1325BC (8) To set off their GA, I attack Leptis Magna with a regular chariot. It kills a NuMe.

Vet chariot at Sabratha against NuMe loses without scratching it. Their GA should be started now.

I pillage as much as I can.

Peace treaty signed with HBR, a worker and 1 gold coming our way.

I sell around our WM.

Iznik horse - > temple
Istanbul horse -> marketplace
Edrine rax -> temple
Aydin horse -> spear
Uskardar horse -> spear

IT Carthage is ticked that we have men in their land. No kidding. They get sent home. I take the opportunity to sell our WM.

Rome is getting a bit antsy. They have about 6 troops in the area of Edrine. Not sure that I like the look of this…..

1300BC (9) Sell around WM. No new techs out there.

Upgrade 3 horses.

IT Rome moves its troops. There are about 4 units in the open area between Edrine and Bursa.

1275 (10) Sell around WM. No new techs out there. We still need embassies in Spain and Vikingville.

As much as I tried to catch up, we are still working some unimproved tiles in our out-cities. Istanbul is set to grow next turn and will go into revolt, I believe.

Carthage is sufficiently weakened that we should be able to clean them up fairly quickly with horses. They are weak and very disorganized. I don’t know that they have any workers left and need a lot of tile improvements after my pillaging.

Good luck to the next leader. J
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6MOW1227BC.ZIP

Nice turn Ridgelake! I've never thought of purposely trying to trigger an opponent's golden age when they can't use it to their advantage...

JMB

Well you saved the style point. :goodjob:

I wish we had the cash to upgrade all our units right away, maybe in 7 turns or so.:(

Doubt I would have bothered with a 25gpt trade for an ancient tech when we need cash for upgrades and our goal is conquest, so pointy stick research is a good byproduct of war.

Doubt I would have gone out of my way to trigger a GA for a deity opponent that is already quite alot stronger than we are.

Temples not barracks? The other by product of wars are Great Leaders and we could use one pretty soon.

Anyway, you were stuck with a tough position so it's no wonder we are going a bit sideways now. I hope someday we will have more fast units than slow (hiding) units so we can MOW.

Here is a picture of Carthage.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/pbp6mow1275bc-carthage.gif

CB, my thought on the GA trigger is that they can do it now, when we are at peace. They are also fairly crippled due to the pillaging. I would much rather have them take their GA now, than in 20 turns when we hit them again with horses.

Overall, France and Carthage are the weakest civs. Carthage is our target for the next war or two. They will have a hard time catching up tech wise. If we waited on the pointy stick research, we may well be pretty far behind at that point. I know that it was expensive, given the time. But I would rather be at tech parity with Republic due up next, than waiting heaven knows how long for our pointy sticks to uncover the knowledge.

That was my thinking. But as you are far more experienced of a civ player than I am, I will accept your :smoke: comments and try to learn from them.

On another game note, I think that Spain will get the contact with America first. I saw a boat go by about 3 or 4 turns ago that I forgot to mention in the report.

But, if you look over at Rome they have not hooked up their iron. Right now would be the time to fit a war in with them, before we go back to Carthage.

Giving Carthage a Golden Age with all those cites for the next 20 turns of peace won't make it any easier next time we go after them.

On the other hand, all that pillaging that you managed will most certainly alter their plans. :lol: That was nice work!

I saw a boat go by about 3 or 4 turns ago that I forgot to mention . . . .

You saw an American boat go by? If so, did you drop in and say "hi" to Abe? In other words, did the scout I posted across from the American border not manage to make contact with America? There was nothing much left to scout for, so I left him there to catch an American ship passing by. Did Spain's borders expand and give us the boot or what?

Ridgelake,

Interesting write-up with an in-character report, good play, nice weakening of Carthage, and our first pair of style points? Excellent job with the pillaging too. Way to go, welcome to Realms Beyond! :) I see I chose wisely in expanding the roster :goodjob:

I liked the firing of the GA myself. With improvements down and while we're not at war with them, I too prefere it now than later. *IF* they're currently in despotism, or if they go into anarchy in about 10 years, I give it two thumbs up.

Cartouche made some good comments, but was more expressing an alternate view than making a weed call. In fact, CB raises a good issue about Rome. If they're STILL ironless, they're begging for a smack. I'm up next, but will probably not get to the game until tomorrow night, so I'm open for further input. I think timing-wise, hitting someone with a big horse assault just before Chivalry, and taking that as a peace concession, would work well. A horse rush before Pikes would be even better, but I can't see having the military might to do that in time. We need vet units, and lots more of them, SOON. Our number of cities is good, especially for deity, at this stage of the game. If we can get a defensible position and an offensive force together, we'll be in good shape against any opponent.

In games with a LOT of ancient war I've mixed results with 'bite-sized' wars. In my Celtic 5CC they were very valuable in keeping 'close' with the AI and with snarfing local resources I wanted in my land rather than AI land. In the Korean game, we 'won' every early war but did no lasting damage in any of them, and ended up fallilng so far behind we never did catch up.
I think Rome could stand a "mini-war" where we, for example, stole their iron and 'won' and got a minor concession. But for Carthage, we don't want a small concession, we want ALL THEIR LANDS, probably no later than with Knights.

Roster:
Cartouche Bee <<-- On Deck
Meldor
Skyfish
Reagan
Ridgelake
Charis <<-- UP

Thanks,
Charis

PS in EDIT --
BTW, I've upgraded to PtW v1.21f. (By necessity for an upcoming RBCiv epic). Hopefully others are planning to do so soon if they have not already?!

Charis is right I'm not making smoke calls, probably sounds like it but it's just the brevity of my writing. If we don't communicate at all then I doubt we gain near as much from the experience, and learn how to approach the SG as a team. I've found that when I negotiate for peace, that usually, the negotiation goes better if I've won the last battle(s) (the more damaging and successive the wins the better). So from my experience, I wouldn't risk losing a fight just before going to talk peace because I think it cuts my profit margin from the war.

Originally posted by Charis
..........I liked the firing of the GA myself. With improvements down and while we're not at war with them, I too prefere it now than later. *IF* they're currently in despotism, or if they go into anarchy in about 10 years, I give it two thumbs up.I have to agree with this one. Given the condition they are in , they will spend a good bit of their GA building workers and trying to get improvements. We jshould watch very closely and buy every worker we can from them.

Originally posted by Charis
.........In games with a LOT of ancient war I've mixed results with 'bite-sized' wars. In my Celtic 5CC they were very valuable in keeping 'close' with the AI and with snarfing local resources I wanted in my land rather than AI land. In the Korean game, we 'won' every early war but did no lasting damage in any of them, and ended up fallilng so far behind we never did catch up.I think the problem with the Korean game was starting in the middle of the jungle. We were always fighting to try and stay close. Almost every war was fought in our territory and only of limited scope. Here I think we did some serious damage to Carthage and they will be slowed quite heavily.

Originally posted by Charis
I think Rome could stand a "mini-war" where we, for example, stole their iron and 'won' and got a minor concession. Another mistake of the Korean game was allowing Russia to go untouched for the better part of the game. We most likely could have never taken them on, but having that strong of a neighbor was too much to handle. Knocking the Romans down a notch before turning on Carthage again would do us better in the long run. Trim them so we have time to grow.

Originally posted by Charis
But for Carthage, we don't want a small concession, we want ALL THEIR LANDS, probably no later than with Knights.If we get some promotions out of the war with Rome, hitting Carthage will get easier. It sure would be nice to have that whole end of the landmass, especially if we can keep anyone else from assuming a dominant position.

Originally posted by Charis
BTW, I've upgraded to PtW v1.21f. (By necessity for an upcoming RBCiv epic). Hopefully others are planning to do so soon if they have not already?! I have a couple of SGs that have foreign player in them and they aren't able to patch as yet. If needed, I will do what I did last time. I will install the game on a second PC and have both patches running at the same time.

I am in Europe and unable to patch right now...
It is still unclear if there is compatibility for SP games on the 2 versions.
I hope not being able to patch is not going to prevent me from participating in the SGs I am in PLUS the RBCiiv Epic coming up :(


ps : by the way let's go after the Romans...maybe after 10 turns of building up forces.

I think, in this instance, triggering the Carthage GA could be a good thing, especially if they burn a lot of it while in Despotism. I also agree that we may need to turn our attention to Rome very soon. The presence of two 3-defender neighbors was a lot of the reason I started the war with Carthage -- to get the chariot skirmish out of the way (yea, Ridgelake, for completing our objectives!) so we could have some bigger offensive weapons sooner. There are two primary tough times in a game with these variant rules. We just passed one of them by fighting a war solely with chariots. The other is going to come during the time between Replaceable Parts and Rocketry. Even with their 8-attack, Sipahi are going to have a tough time denting fortified infantry units in large cities. So, we need to make sure we gain as much ground as we can before that post-RP period.

I, too, have upgraded to 1.21f.

A few comments:

@Reagan: The boat was Spanish. I still have the scout on the lookout. If it were American, we would have had enough gold to upgrade all of our chariots during my turn.....

@Charis: Thank you for the welcoming to Realms Beyond :) I do appreciate that. I hope that I am able to live up to your roster expansion choice.

Yes, Carthage is under despotism. And I dont see that they have the resources to acquire republic any time soon either. They are behind CoL, currency and construction, and they have no gold. Plus, they are going to burn their GA with mostly very small cities working unimproved tiles. Their lack of resources will help when we go to war with them again, as they will be unlikely to be able to pay for a dogpile on us.

As for Rome, their capital was not hooked up with iron. I don't remember if the rest of their lands are still unhooked. As for attacking them, it would be nice. But right now, we need a lot more troops and a lot of infra. They were the more powerful nation before our war started against carthage. And we did lose some troops in that battle. So right now, we are weaker than Rome. Not as weak as if they had legions, but still weaker. We could probably fend off their immediate attack with horses on warriors, but I am not sure that we are ready to get after them hard right now.

@CB: I do appreciate the insights that you are making. Part of why I wanted to join this game is that I knew that I would be playing with better players than I am and would learn accordingly.

As for the last attack and suing for peace, what I did was lose an attack, and then follow up with 3 more pillages. So I did get in the last "assault", but it was not against troops.

@Lurkers trying to learn: One of the things that seemed to help in the war was that I (somewhat inadvertantly) made Carthage yo-yo their troops between the Edrine front and the Bursa front. As is mentioned in other threads, the AI will go after the most immediate threat. When I showed the chariot scout coming from Edrine, it made their whole army retreat to cover that "threat". That left the door open for me to send more troops from Bursa into their lands to pillage. I also showed a chariot to them in the unclaimed area west of Leptis Magna. With "threats" (real or imagined) coming at them from 3 different directions, the AI never got coordinated in their attacks. They yo-yo'd back and forth and around while giving me the chance to pop in, pillage, or nibble at their stack before moving away.

All in all you had a good set of moves Ridge, as both Charis and CB said it was homegrown-free. Kudos to you !

As you have 20 turns of peace with Carthage,do you think it would be worthwhile to sign an ROP with them and plonk a unit on their iron as resource denial?

No that's "dishonourable",
we're playing under RB rules which are explained on this site :
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Alot of good comments!

Rome, may be stuck between a rock and a hard place, hopefully they have been just futzing around too much. Next time we meet Carthage in battle, things will be alot different since we won't be limited to chariots. Hope they build alot of galleys so they can get away. :)

As you have 20 turns of peace with Carthage,do you think it would be worthwhile to sign an ROP with them and plonk a unit on their iron as resource denial?

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, as effective as it would be, that is an exploit (not simply dishonorable) and is not an option for us. We'll have to MOW the opposition despite their access to iron. :hammer:

Thank you,Skyfish,I have now printed out the rules.8 pages of small type.:crazyeye:

Originally posted by Reagan


Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, as effective as it would be, that is an exploit (not simply dishonorable) and is not an option for us. We'll have to MOW the opposition despite their access to iron. :hammer:

Not only an exploit but we might get lucky and have Carthage declare war on us in the next 20 turns. :) If they were sending settler/defender pairs though our country before, they might just keep it up and get belligerent. Saddle Up! :lol:

One more thing that I should mention. The Carthage galley has sailed west of our lands. They may well be dropping a settler between us and France. Maybe we should send out the chariot in Iznit to see if they do, in fact, drop a settler out there.

Edit: If I were to rank the other civs right now, I would put Spain, England and Scandanavia at the top with Rome a shade below. Then I would put us, followed by France and finally Carthage.

At last check, Rome was out of gold. Put another way, they are not the 900 pound gorilla that we are making them out to be. They are clearly dangerous, with their deity advantage and their legion potential. But they are not the top AI civ right now.

England and Spain have the most gold and are likely going to research the next tech. For some reason, the Vikings always seem to come out strong in games that I am in. France, like Carthage, is behind CoL, currency, and construction.

Originally posted by Ridgelake
One more thing that I should mention. The Carthage galley has sailed west of our lands. They may well be dropping a settler between us and France. Maybe we should send out the chariot in Iznit to see if they do, in fact, drop a settler out there.

Good, they are being smart! That will be their new capitol. :)

Playing around, I drew up a tentative dot map for our Carthaginian FP area.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-FPdotmap2.gif

The FP would go on Red Dot. This would be centrally located, on a river, next to the iron.

I was reasonably content with the location of Carthage, Theveste, and Leptis Minor.

I had thought about razing Leptis Magna, but that would leave open the light blue circles.

On the northern part, Utica should be raised. I also think that Hippo should be raised and moved 1 square SW to the yellow dot. Doing this would allow us to work all of the tiles on the northern part of the land. If we decide not to raze Hippo, then we would lose the two orange circles by Utica.

Sabratha is in a poor spot. It will have no access to greater than 2 unit food squares until after railroads. Thus, it would not be able to work both gold mountains in its radius. Moving it 1 square to the SW will give it access to a cow. This move will also reduce overlap with Leptis Magna.

Finally, on the pinkish dot, I propose that put in a city. It would work the pink circle tiles, including 5 grasslands and 1 gold mountain. Yes, it is shoed in between a lot of things, but just working those tiles, so close to the capital and FP, will make it a reasonable contributor.

Overall, this area can be a very strong commercial base. It will be a touch light on shields, but with a 5 billion age continent, there wont be a lot of hills and mountains overall.

Thoughts?

I have not looked at FP placement too much yet but...

I would probably put it in Edrine. This would allow all the cities in this area to still be productive. Later I would probably relocate the palace closer to the front (more continent central) to help prevent culture flips.

Charis 'Osmon' Turkis came to power at an exciting time in Ottoman history.
We had just won our first war, and were beginning to demonstrate the great
superiority of mounted units. We were likely to see another war against them
at some point, or perhaps the Romans or the French would ask for a whooping
first!? Carthage was wasting it's GA in despotism, building workers and other
very basic goods.

Some ideas floated around by the various advisors: Hit Rome before they get iron,
hope for some promotions (and maybe a leader?!) Others suggest now is the time
to build infrastructure. Yet others, horses. One advisor even had plans for a
forbidden palace site :P So many good ideas, which to pursue?

Osmon took stock of his nation. Eight cities, a rax and granary in the capital and...
that's *IT*? Many cities are working on improvements though. Wow, Edrine is fairly
corrupt for being so close to the capital. It swaps to courthouse, as do Iznik and Antalya.

I'm confused on our research path. 40-turn for Republic is open, but we're at NO research
at all, towards Polytheism. Then I looked around diplomatically. Parity with Rome?
And Vikings, Spain and England, and THREE techs up on France and Carthage?! Wow! Good
job guys :) I turn research back on, at 10%, towards Republic, the most expensive
and useful tech. We'll buy Polytheism when two other civs have it, and enter the Middle
Ages and get a free tech. (Monotheism likely under old patch, let's see now!)
Before seeing how well we were on tech, I was thinking to forsake infrastructure and
have a huge horse buildup. Now Osmon has set his course... a reign of solid building
to position us for a horse-based war to demand Chivalry tech, followed by a Knight-
upgrade and war against the 'other' neighbor.

BTW, the 'gorilla' on our continent is England. They're not only number one now,
but they have the pyramids and will grow the fastest by far. We're number one in population
but last in land area. I would probably go for a few more settlers except since we plan for
war it will be more efficient to build our existing cities strongly then take a few
small cities from the AI. Let them settle the junkier lands surrounding our nice core.
There is however, one very tempting site. The river spot right next to Rome's iron
and some wheat as well. Alas our culture is as weak as Rome's and it would be a serious
flip risk.


[0] 1275 BC - Bursa would lose too many shields letting the rax finish. It is swapped
to Temple. Uskudar needs to grow, and it swaps to a granary. Aydin swaps off spear
to rax (I dislike regular troops)

(IBT) The Romans move *THREE* mil units North of Antium. Coming for us? Or Carthage?!

[1] 1250 BC - Istanbul grows and hits the nice 15spt mark, but is close to unhappy.
This and each turn I look for new trade deals, and sell our map around.

[2] 1225 BC - French are building the Great Library. IBT Rome moved several MORE units,
They're either moving towards Bursa, or Carthage. I upgrade a few chariots, to
be ready if they want trouble. It looks like France researched lit and traded it to
Vikings or Spain for two techs. They still lack construction. They also have a worker
to spare. We trade Construction for Literature+WM+worker.

[3] 1200 BC - There we have our answer. Rome has declared war on Carthage! Sweet!!!
Our two nearest neighbors are going to weaken themselves, in an even match.
Actually, this is pure weed for Rome. Archers vs Numes, in the Carthage Golden Age?
And Rome's iron remains unhooked. Even if Rome gains ground, it will be far from
their core and their captured cities will be easy prey to us! Keep an eye on this
war. If it ends by Roman offensive forces all dying, it might be a good time for us
to pounce. But them them beat themselves senseless for a while first :p
Spain starts Great Library too. It will be obsolete before they finish it?!

Bursa feels frisky, and swaps off temple for marketplace. Izniks grows itself unhappy,
so I pull a citizen for scientist duty.

(IBT) Rome kills 6 Carthage units, loses 4. Nice. We see the Carthaginians land
a nume-settler in the desert-ivory zone to the far NW.

[4] 1175 BC - Buildin'. (IBT) Two vs two losses visible.

[5] 1150 BC - Istanbul finishes market, starts temple. We get an embassy with the
Vikings. Trondheim is 3spt, slowly building a colloseum, with one lux. (And Oracle!?)

(IBT) Fairly quiet. The NW Numes do settle. Not too far from iron.

[6] 1125 BC - Aydin starts our first galley. Almost all civs are near flat broke,
except Spain with almost 600g. (IBT) Carthage loses two units.

[7] 1100 BC - Just about everyone is trying Great Lib now. Spain alone has Polytheism.

[8] 1075 BC - Another French worker for sale. WM+5gpt+10g buys it.

[9] 1050 BC - Istanbul hits 20spt at size 10, woo. Library will be done in just 2.
Edrine courthouse is done, now much more productive. Uskudar finishes granary,
starts library for some culture and expansion.

France now has Polytheism too. Spain and England have the Republic. We're still
31 turns off. We could buy Poly to get into next age, but I think waiting would be
fine to let other civs get something to trade us for our free tech.

Antalya double whips a courthouse. Izmit whips a library.

[10] 1025 BC - I would say Carthage has repelled the Roman invasion. I'm seeing more
Carthage troops and less of Rome. Plus Sabratha yet stands. Will Antium come under
pressure?

Iznik's's courthouse is done, it starts a temple.

[11] 1000 BC - To even up the years I go one more...
We complete our last embassy, in Spain. Madrid has Great Wall due in 4 turns,
at 10spt, with three lux and iron, four spears defending.

To our next leader, watch the Rome-Carthage war and keep your eyes open. Consider
our middle age jump (Poly purchase), our govt plans (self-research Republic or use
free tech to buy it?), and whether to keep the build up going a bit more, or swap
over to rax and lots of horses. There's a NW scout on iron. Two folks just founded
cities not far. He's not meaning to blockade it. Move if a road comes next to it.
Rome *STILL* has not connected it's Iron!?!? In fact... there are a lot of workers in
the fields. You might shift over some chariots and capture about four on first round,
if you do decide to hit them. (I'm not convinced the time is ripe yet.)

Save file 1000BC RBP6 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-1000BC.zip)

Roster: (BTW, this turn WAS played in the new PTw patch, 1.21)
Cartouche Bee <<-- UP
Meldor <<-- On Deck
Skyfish
Reagan
Ridgelake
Charis

Good luck!
Charis

Got it!

And upgraded.

I was stationed at Edrine, an mere outpost established to spy on our enemies. Orhan and Murad had been gathering information from far off lands and making deductions on a variety of actions our neighbors had been performing. They had come to the conclusion that the Romans were a society bent on destruction, they spent time training for war and were seeking resources of iron to equip their growing armies.

I was wakened by some commotion down in horse paddy, I rose and drew my saber. The blade sung in the cool crisp air as if it were already raging in battle. Down in the paddy the stallions were snorting smoke rings off to the distant fires of the nearby Roman camps. It had begun, our enemies were bent on our destruction and we were solely unprepared for the war. We were about to be stung by the most ominous weapon of war, surprise without means of defense.

I called up my messenger to spread the word far and wide. Each township is to provide a barracks to provide the veteran troops we require to meet the enemy. We were about to engage a plan to thwart as many enemies as possible.

We ask that Carthage remove their troops from out lands. They declare war.

975BC - Carthage lands NuMer by Aydin, I'm in no mood to horse around so the new vet horsemen there takes it out with 1HP loss to the Horsemen. We take out another Numer near Bursa and lose a horseman. We also attack the swordsmen near Bursa and knock him down to 1 HP. Science 10%

950BC - Carthage and Rome make peace. We smoke a swordsmen and archer.

925BC - France declares war on England. England builds the Great wall. We smoke another swordsmen. Lux 10%, we have war happiness. :)
France gives us Poly for an Alliance against England and 3 GPT. We get Engineering all hail 1.21f
Spain gives us Alliance against England, Republic, ROP (for that scout we have eyeballing the Americans), 7 gold.
Scandinavia Alliance England, 150 and furs for Engineering.
Who says being number one is the best, England!

900BC - Smoke swordsmen and archer at Aydin. They are sending troops to Erdine. Another swordsmen goes down at Bursa, guess those 3 catapults are helping now.

875 BC - We meet the Americans with our scout, thanks Reagan! They know almost nothing! We sell them the contacts they don't have and that uses up their cash. I establish an embassy with the Americans. We give them Philosophy and mathematics for Alliance against England. Maps also yield ROP with Scandinavia.

IBT Spain pulls Rome in against England. Carthage impales a swordsmen and NuMer on Edrine. Spanish are building Hanging Gardens

850BC - No counter attacks just jockey troops around.

825BC - English are building Sun Tzu. We rally horsemen to Istanbul with plans to rush Rusicade. Carthage is ready for peace but I want that site back and at least one city concession for this war. England has Feudalism so I drop science to 0%

800BC - We lose 1 horsemen taking out Rusicade. Istanbul will build a settler next turn to build a city. Carthage is not ready to capitulate. They must be whipping the snot out of their cities, Carthage it's self is down to a size 2. We might be best to just keep laying the boots to them and end this thorn of a problem.

775BC - Rome is pumping units over to hit on England (I've seen at least 10 units charge off into the sunset). We smash Utica, lost a horsemen gained the city and 4 workers.

750BC - Konya is established. repel 3 swords over at Utica. Well the troops need rest and we got three more horsemen next turn if you want them. If we rest up, we could pull together about 15 horsemen and just pound Carthage. By the time we finish them off the Romans might just about be to England (and sorely out of position) and no they don't have their iron hooked up yet. I did not change governments cause I needed the production for war. We are getting a little power spike but that is just caused by the war effort.

[Edit:] You might want to let Carthage keep that iron hooked up, rather beat on swordmen than NuMer's.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-750BC.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Osman750BC.JPG

I see it and will play it after LK42 so I can patch after that......

CB redefines the word 'warmonger' :eek:

:goodjob:

I figured a shift to war would come, but didn't expect it on turn 0 before getting a few more vet horses. I *really* like the move you pulled on England! Dogpiling the growing superpower and getting Polytheism and Republic for it? Woohoo!

Not only that, but two more style points (war with England and a horse war). We really should do *something* over in England, both for reputation and for style. Perhaps a free scout could pillage a tile or two?

Meldor will have an interesting call to make. Peace with Carthage or a near wipe-out. They have nothing to give, and likely will have nothing of value, ever. Cities - if they won't give cities there's not much point to peace. Razing Carthage and taking all their cities in our core for peace, leaving the one tiny city to the west for their new capital would be ideal. I also agree that once Rome is gassed and has all units out of position, it would be inconceivable not to hit them, hit them hard, and permanently deny the iron they so foolishly refuse to hook up.

Charis

That English dogpile was a thing of beauty :lol:

I am surprised with how quickly Carthage was able to re-develop their lands, while in war with Rome and us. Even so, I think we should eliminate them now. Their GA is over and they are gassed. Lets remove this front and focus on the West. The thought of hitting Rome with all its troops out of position is...yummy :p

:lol: Thanks.

After a bit of reflection, Hippo with the harbor might be a good target (we got some lux trade going on and would add some security on that note), plus a city or two for war concession would be a nice end. Timing out for the hit on Rome. But things change and I'm sure meldor will handle it.

We do have a couple of scouts out toward England, the one that spotted the Americans is just up between France, Rome and Spain. ;) In case we want to spit our tongue out at England. :lol:

Will pillaging get the style point for England? To quote the rules:
A real war is intended, not just a psuedo-war.
It would seem we would need to seriously attack them and not just send wimpy scout (non-mounted units) to attack. I think this game will allow us to get in our style point against England, even if we leave this one as a psuedo-war.

Well we could send a horse over but getting all those civs at war against England is not really psuedo-war, they are taking a measureable hit.

Meldor is right. The intent was that "WE", as a people, go mano-a-mano with a civ, not just that the foes are involved in a war.

The scout or horse with an attack or pillage will salvage our reputation however. If we end an alliance w/o hitting England at all we'll be (partly) considered liars. We will have to consider how we'll bring England to the peace table too, as we don't plan to pay for peace.

You're also right, we'll have a chance later to hit them for real.

Hippo looks like a good target. For some reason I like Sabritha too, as it gives us a "east coast" harbor and envelops Carthage.

Charis

OK, I'm too heavy to walk on rice paper, so I've learned to float. :) We have to at least pillage in the next 11-12 turns for the alliance. Then, if we can't get England to pay to end the war then that situation will call for a tango, so maybe the situation will look after itself. ;) A bit of smack down on the Romans on our way over to bloody England's nose?

Originally posted by Charis
......Hippo looks like a good target. For some reason I like Sabritha too, as it gives us a "east coast" harbor and envelops Carthage.I was thinking Hippo, Carthage, Theveste, Liptis Magna, Leptis Minor, and Sabrinth :hammer:

But if you would rather not.......

Of course it all depends on the flow of the game. I will see if we can send at least some units south to help out all the alliance partners. Now which again do I pillage and which do I plunder?

Originally posted by meldor
I was thinking Hippo, Carthage, Theveste, Liptis Magna, Leptis Minor, and Sabrinth :hammer:

But if you would rather not.......

Of course it all depends on the flow of the game. I will see if we can send at least some units south to help out all the alliance partners. Now which again do I pillage and which do I plunder?

hehe If I'm not careful, I'll let you guys convert me from a builder to a warmonger! [plasma]

Originally posted by meldor
I was thinking Hippo, Carthage, Theveste, Liptis Magna, Leptis Minor, and Sabrinth :hammer:

But if you would rather not.......

Of course it all depends on the flow of the game. I will see if we can send at least some units south to help out all the alliance partners. Now which again do I pillage and which do I plunder?

I was afraid to suggest it. Rome can't hook up that iron too quick cause they have not even started yet so, 9 turns with one worker minimum, might want to just capture the worker on turn 8 though, declare war first of course. :D You might just be finished rounding the horn about then. :) Sorry about the English liability, war is hell.

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee


I was afraid to suggest it. Rome can't hook up that iron too quick cause they have not even started yet so, 9 turns with one worker minimum, might want to just capture the worker on turn 8 though, declare war first of course. :D You might just be finished rounding the horn about then. :) Sorry about the English liability, war is hell. Liability? The worst thing would be if Carthage or Rome could get someone in on their side. You took care of that neatly. As long as no one expects a full style point for the English war, it won't be a problem....at least before I start.

Being European I can not patch to 1.21 :-(
Can I really only play if I run 1.21 ?

Ouch, didn't realize that Skyfish.

I don't know if the versions are save compatible or not. Go ahead and try to load the gone with your older version and see what happens. When is the new European Patch due?

Charis

1.21f games won't work with 1.14f games at all. The file format is different.

AFAIK, there is no published release date for any non US patch. :mad:

BTW, the game looks great. I hope to get some free time at some point to join in an RBE game. :)

anares is unfortunately correct. I verified this myself while downloading the patch. I tried loading epic 25 on the old version, and it gives an I/O error immediately, but loads fine now that I have the new version. The only good news out of that is you can be absolutely ceartian everyone playing your epic is playing on the current patch Charis.

It is country dependant on who the patch will work for outside the US though. Aparently it does work with the aussie version. However, If you try to patch and it doesn't work for your country, you will wind up having to completely reinstall the game according to the comments of those that have tried.

On a happier note, it's great to see the RB crew on the path to breaking the losing streak. I downloaded the save after CB's turn the other night and looked it over and it looks :). From what it looks like to me, your 3 neighbors are fairly weak by comparison to the others, which should make things easier. Hopefully I'll be feeling up to getting back into one of these soon.

@ Charis and meldor: Isn't it nice to get a non jungle wasteland for a starting position for a dieity waring varient heh.

@ CB I was similarly afriad to mention that rome still hasn't hooked up that iron yet and looks ripe to be had considering they have also impaled an awful lot of units vs Carthage.

Originally posted by ToddMarshall


@ CB I was similarly afriad to mention that rome still hasn't hooked up that iron yet and looks ripe to be had considering they have also impaled an awful lot of units vs Carthage.

:lol: Yes, we kind of have a 'target rich environment' (Top Gun) considering we are going into the Middle Ages with horsemen on deity. Rome is definantly an easier mark, Carthage would go down easier with knights. I 'm glad we have this many options at this point cause I'm not worried about style points from knights and up. :)

Hope we can get you in a game soon, when you want.

750 BC (Pre-turn)
Troops need a little rest. Lincoln get Poly and Ivory, we get silks and 14g. The Vikes get Ivory, we get 5gpt and 27g. Normally, I would have saved at least one of these to trade for tech, but Carthage has 2 furs nearby and we should have them shortly. Spain does have Monarchy, but that is the only tech we are down, except what england has on us. Carthage will give up Leptis Minor or Sabratha but not both.
(I) An archer kills a wounded horse near Edrine. Two swords show up out of Leptis Magna. Istanbul and Bursa complete a horse and start another. Antalya finishes its Rax and starts a Library. Livy says the most powerful nations are the Vikings, English, Americans, Spanish, French, Romans, us, and in last place the Carthaginians.

730 BC (1)
Cat in Edrine knocks the archer to 1 hp. Kill it with a redlined horse so it can't move onto the mountain and threaten our workers. Kill 1 NuMe and 2 swords near Leptis Magna but lose one horse doing it. Swap Uskundar to a settler.
(I) Lose a horse to a sword counter. A sword and NuMe appear near Utica. Aydin completes a Horse and start another. The English start the Hanging Gardens.

710 BC (2)
Pound the sword near Utica, take him out with a Reg Horse, but no promotion. Kill another sword near Leptis Magna. Kill one of the NuMe's guarding Hippo, but the other one holds at 2hp. The Vikes and Spanards have both Monarchy and Feudalism but no good 2fer yet.
(I) The Vikes start Sun's. Two more swords appear out of Leptis Magna. We hit the NuMe in Hippo, but they rushed a second one. He didn't get to fortify, and the puny ground unit falls to our elite riders. The city is ours with a free slave.

690 BC (3)
Get Feudalism from Vikes for 585g and 12gpt, Joanie get it and 1gpt for Monarchy. Kill a sword between Hippo and Utica.
(I) Horse completes in Bursa. In a strange move, the Roman workers roading towards the iron finish irrigating the square next to it and leave.

670 BC (4)
Not much.

650 BC (5)
Nail three swords but lose two horses.
(I) Madrid completes the Great Library. No new swords appear from Carthage.

630 BC (6)
Rest and movement. A quite turn. We have enough money to last eight turns of anarchy, so I pull the trigger. We get 6 turns. Not the best, but could be worse.
(I) One sword appears out of Leptis Magna.

610 BC (7)
Kill the sword and auto-raze Leptis Magna. Game GPFs and I restart....twice. We wind up with 3 more slaves.
(I) No reponse from Carthage.

590 BC (8)
Move settler into place.
(I) Spain and England declare peace.

570 BC (9)
Adana formed.
(I) Carthage and Scandanavia sign an alliance against England.

550 BC (10)
The troops are resting.

Carthage will give us peace for Leptis Minor, Sabratha, and 72g. England will give us peace straight up but we have 4 turns of alliance to go. We have two more turns of anarchy before Monarchy. The Romans have just this turn moved workers up to road the iron. It might be best to take what we can from Carthage and move everything down to hit Rome.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBP6-MOW-550BC.zip)