I keep getting dominated in everything because the AI spams cities like mad. :( I try to focus on science and wonder building, putting my cities in ideal spots, but the AI just crams its in and by the medieval age is way ahead of me in everything. I can't complete a single wonder anymore, even when I try to rush with a Grate Engineer ... which is another consternation ...

Great Engineers seem utterly worthless by this point in the game ... since regular workers can build Manufactories, all GEs can do is initiate wonder or hurry production, and by medieval-era Wonders, that's not even a quarter of the production. :( Am I missing something with Great Engineers?

Yet the AI seemed to instantly build a wonder from the Industrial era ... the very turn it entered the Industrial era. How the heck did it do that!?

I keep getting dominated in everything because the AI spams cities like mad. :( I try to focus on science and wonder building, putting my cities in ideal spots, but the AI just crams its in and by the medieval age is way ahead of me in everything. I can't complete a single wonder anymore, even when I try to rush with a Grate Engineer ... which is another consternation ...

Great Engineers seem utterly worthless by this point in the game ... since regular workers can build Manufactories, all GEs can do is initiate wonder or hurry production, and by medieval-era Wonders, that's not even a quarter of the production. :( Am I missing something with Great Engineers?

Yet the AI seemed to instantly build a wonder from the Industrial era ... the very turn it entered the Industrial era. How the heck did it do that!?

First of all - what difficulty are you playing on? Also, the only way to really counter the AI is to more or less match them in the amount of cities they build. With chopping and policies, you should be able to get out a city every 15-20 turns. Worker manufacturies aren't straight up great people manufactories either, they've been scaled according to the mod. And GE, even if they don't hurry later wonders, still give you a solid boost towards them, which is still stronger than either a mod or vanilla manufactory.

It can be difficult, and I'd suggest lower difficulties if you're struggling, as the AI expands slower, both in how many cities they build, and in how fast they grow.

Prince, which is the same difficulty I play Thal's mod and vanilla.

So the only way to beat the AI in this mod is to practice ICS like it does? :(

Prince, which is the same difficulty I play Thal's mod and vanilla.

So the only way to beat the AI in this mod is to practice ICS like it does? :(

Thal's mod is more or less tweaked vanilla, while nights is a completely different animal, and similar styles of play won't necessarily work. The AI is terrible at expanding in vanilla CIV V, and that's not the case in nights. While you'll be able to compete if you have maybe at least 60% the amount of cities an AI has, 3 cities probably won't cut it (and to stay competitive while going tall, you'll really need to play the CS and RA game).

Nights is modeled more on managing a grand empire, not on competing scientifically with 3 cities. Bigger is essentially better, and even in vanilla this is the case, its just that the AI is too pathetic to take advantage of its bonuses. Rather than having half the world unsettled in 500 AD, I took the mod in the opposite direction - which essentially is what the standard was in Civ up until CIV V, where now population = science, which means that ICS will always be the optimal strategy.

Is it possible to cut out (or halve) science= population from Civ 5, and just leave science up to those generated by buildings and tile improvements?

Obviously you'd have to make the base rates of the buildings increase science output quite a bit, and include a few more science type buildings, but if its possible it might be a way to move away from the ICS strategy being the only viable one.

That said, even in the other civ games if you were playing with only a handful of cities it took quite a bit of skill to pull off, its just even harder in Civ 5. At least in this one you will be getting tons of social policies with so few cities...

Thal's mod is more or less tweaked vanilla, while nights is a completely different animal, and similar styles of play won't necessarily work. The AI is terrible at expanding in vanilla CIV V, and that's not the case in nights. While you'll be able to compete if you have maybe at least 60% the amount of cities an AI has, 3 cities probably won't cut it (and to stay competitive while going tall, you'll really need to play the CS and RA game).


Sorry to pop in the discussion but how did you mod AI expansion. I try to look files but didn't find them. I have been doing same thing (see my AI mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=415397)). My approach can be summarized next lines:


At defines:
<!--early REX-->
<Update>
<Where Name="AI_STRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION_NUM_CITIES_LIMIT"/>
<Set Value="5"/>
</Update>
<!--early REX-->
<Update>
<Where Name="AI_STRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION_NUM_UNOWNED_TILES_REQU IRED"/>
<Set Value="7"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Name="FLAVOR_EXPANDGROW_COEFFICIENT"/>
<Set Value="4"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Name="AI_CITY_SPECIALIZATION_EARLIEST_TURN"/>
<Set Value="6"/>
</Update>

At AIEconomicStrategies:

<Update>
<Where Type="ECONOMICAISTRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION"/>
<Set CheckTriggerTurnCount="1"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="ECONOMICAISTRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION"/>
<Set WeightThreshold="-5"/> Side note not sure about this
</Update>

At AIEconomicStrategy_Flavors:
<Update>
<Where AIEconomicStrategyType="ECONOMICAISTRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION" FlavorType="FLAVOR_EXPANSION"/>
<Set Flavor="30"/>
</Update>

At AICityStrategy_Flavors:
<Update>
<Where AICityStrategyType="AICITYSTRATEGY_CAPITAL_NEED_SETTLER" FlavorType="FLAVOR_EXPANSION"/>
<Set Flavor="60"/>
</Update>

Is it possible to cut out (or halve) science= population from Civ 5, and just leave science up to those generated by buildings and tile improvements?

Obviously you'd have to make the base rates of the buildings increase science output quite a bit, and include a few more science type buildings, but if its possible it might be a way to move away from the ICS strategy being the only viable one.

That said, even in the other civ games if you were playing with only a handful of cities it took quite a bit of skill to pull off, its just even harder in Civ 5. At least in this one you will be getting tons of social policies with so few cities...

The mod actually did this when it first started out - Citizens only provided 0.5 science each. The problem with this is that you need way more science buildings, and AI runaways were far more common-stance, because if an Civ missed constructing a few of these buildings, they'd be behind the eight ball right from the start.

Sorry to pop in the discussion but how did you mod AI expansion. I try to look files but didn't find them. I have been doing same thing (see my AI mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=415397)). My approach can be summarized next lines:


At defines:
<!--early REX-->
<Update>
<Where Name="AI_STRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION_NUM_CITIES_LIMIT"/>
<Set Value="5"/>
</Update>
<!--early REX-->
<Update>
<Where Name="AI_STRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION_NUM_UNOWNED_TILES_REQU IRED"/>
<Set Value="7"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Name="FLAVOR_EXPANDGROW_COEFFICIENT"/>
<Set Value="4"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Name="AI_CITY_SPECIALIZATION_EARLIEST_TURN"/>
<Set Value="6"/>
</Update>

At AIEconomicStrategies:

<Update>
<Where Type="ECONOMICAISTRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION"/>
<Set CheckTriggerTurnCount="1"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="ECONOMICAISTRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION"/>
<Set WeightThreshold="-5"/> Side note not sure about this
</Update>

At AIEconomicStrategy_Flavors:
<Update>
<Where AIEconomicStrategyType="ECONOMICAISTRATEGY_EARLY_EXPANSION" FlavorType="FLAVOR_EXPANSION"/>
<Set Flavor="30"/>
</Update>

At AICityStrategy_Flavors:
<Update>
<Where AICityStrategyType="AICITYSTRATEGY_CAPITAL_NEED_SETTLER" FlavorType="FLAVOR_EXPANSION"/>
<Set Flavor="60"/>
</Update>


I tweak much of the same code. Some important ones you're missing include:

TargetNumCities in the CIV5Worlds.xml (increase these values by at least double).
AI_STRATEGY_MINIMUM_SETTLE_FERTILITY in GlobalAIDefines.xml (lower this value).
AI_STRATEGY_AREA_IS_FULL_PERCENT (raise this to 100%).
FLAVOR_EXPANSION for Settler -> raise this amount.

There's also the fact that in the mod, you start off with much higher happiness, and this is also closing off other options the AI would normally be focusing on instead of settling, (but I doubt you'd want to add happiness to Civs at the start of a game).

I tweak much of the same code. Some important ones you're missing include:

TargetNumCities in the CIV5Worlds.xml (increase these values by at least double).
AI_STRATEGY_MINIMUM_SETTLE_FERTILITY in GlobalAIDefines.xml (lower this value).
AI_STRATEGY_AREA_IS_FULL_PERCENT (raise this to 100%).
FLAVOR_EXPANSION for Settler -> raise this amount.

There's also the fact that in the mod, you start off with much higher happiness, and this is also closing off other options the AI would normally be focusing on instead of settling, (but I doubt you'd want to add happiness to Civs at the start of a game).

Thanks for info. The TargetNumCities is really new to me. Others I have been messing around. I think the values are quite good for me now maybe coming back to expansion in future. But I will move next to diplomacy and try to make thing a bit more better in that area.

I am fine with happiness which I see as a speed modifier in game (Not possible to all time make settlers; without happiness hit this game would be infinity settler spamming). AI can handle happiness issues quite well.


Joltis

Is it possible to cut out (or halve) science= population from Civ 5, and just leave science up to those generated by buildings and tile improvements?

Obviously you'd have to make the base rates of the buildings increase science output quite a bit, and include a few more science type buildings, but if its possible it might be a way to move away from the ICS strategy being the only viable one.

That said, even in the other civ games if you were playing with only a handful of cities it took quite a bit of skill to pull off, its just even harder in Civ 5. At least in this one you will be getting tons of social policies with so few cities...

The trouble is the pretty much linear relationship between pop and science. 12 pop 1 cities will produce the same science as 1 pop 12 city. When in reality 12 pop 1 cities would produce virtually no science, while a size 12 city would produce more science.

So, how about using the formula: science = pop of city/total number of cities in civ + bonuses + % mods.

That way ICS civs would be slowed down science wise, while still being able to out produce and out gold everyone else. And tall civs would still be able to keep up.

I hope that makes sense:confused:

The trouble is the pretty much linear relationship between pop and science. 12 pop 1 cities will produce the same science as 1 pop 12 city. When in reality 12 pop 1 cities would produce virtually no science, while a size 12 city would produce more science.

So, how about using the formula: science = pop of city/total number of cities in civ + bonuses + % mods.

That way ICS civs would be slowed down science wise, while still being able to out produce and out gold everyone else. And tall civs would still be able to keep up.

I hope that makes sense:confused:


I would like to state that I have yet to play this mod, but have been reading up so that I will have some idea what I am doing this weekend when I begin a new game. I am also relatively new to Civ5 in general. However, I can understand what you are saying about wanting to essentially disincentivize rapid ICS spread as a way to out tech a tall empire and I do believe that your point is valid. However, an easier way would be just to fix an integer number on it to scale it around based on population, so maybe start out at 1/4 science per pop and scale up to near 1 as pop grows (before bonuses). That would essentially look like Science = PopCity/(PopCity + X) where X is a constant. For this, let's say that X is 3. Your example would then yield 12 * (1/4) for the wide empire or 3 Science. The tall empire would yield 12 * 12/13 of a science or about 11 Science. Obviously this number can scale differently depending on the constant, but I do think it makes your example scale with pop in a city a little bit better. Unless of course you start to factor in transmission of scientific ideas across different locations as a way to speed up scientific ideas based on different platforms for observation. :crazyeye:

Scrap what I said early. What we need is a logistic curve, or s-curve, as defined by the equation: P(t) = 1 / 1 + e(power of)-t. Where P=science and t = pop

the output of this equation would then need to be multiplied by the pop of the city, or maybe a figure derived from the pop and number of buildings in the city. That way a more developed city will produce more science than an undeveloped one.

I'm running into the same issue. I'm just getting spammed endlessly with enemy cities
and units. I can never gain a real edge. Great engies are also pretty pointless.
Oh yes the not able to build wonders without a certain government types get
obnoxious real fast. Still its an interesting mod.

Scrap what I said early. What we need is a logistic curve, or s-curve, as defined by the equation: P(t) = 1 / 1 + e(power of)-t. Where P=science and t = pop

the output of this equation would then need to be multiplied by the pop of the city, or maybe a figure derived from the pop and number of buildings in the city. That way a more developed city will produce more science than an undeveloped one.

That could work - but it's something that'd require .dll access.

I'm running into the same issue. I'm just getting spammed endlessly with enemy cities
and units. I can never gain a real edge. Great engies are also pretty pointless.
Oh yes the not able to build wonders without a certain government types get
obnoxious real fast. Still its an interesting mod.

The AI more or less expands at the rate they did in previous Civ games. CIV V is an exception, in that the AI just fails to expand, in many cases on even the highest difficulty settings. Mechanics like increasing social policy costs were put into place to discourage expansion, (and traits favoring tall empires) - were even put in place to promote this play-style. There's one problem with all of this: it doesn't work.

A large, sprawling empire will always dominate small/tall empires - especially when population = science. A slider from the previous games would actually do a better job of promoting tall empires... Rather than have the AI expand at a snail's pace, they expand at a competitive rate in Nights, and with less happiness bonuses than in vanilla CIV V. Coming from CIV V, their rate of expansion might seem too fast - but with practice, it's easily possible to keep pace, (although on Deity it will be very difficult). On Emperor/Immortal, to keep pace with the AI, you'll probably have to get Settlers out every 15 turns or so - which is entirely possible with proper policy/tech choices, and effective use of chopping and specialists.

Having to expand like crazy just to match the computer is just silly.
I like wide empires myself but theres a limit. Another issue is the techs
the computer has no issues at all with science while you do. Theres so
many techs that you get mired in a tar pit of techs while the AI just spams
settlers and units. Or wonders. It just leads to a giant stalemate at best.
Getting swamped at worst.

Having to expand like crazy just to match the computer is just silly.
I like wide empires myself but theres a limit. Another issue is the techs
the computer has no issues at all with science while you do. Theres so
many techs that you get mired in a tar pit of techs while the AI just spams
settlers and units. Or wonders. It just leads to a giant stalemate at best.
Getting swamped at worst.

Having to expand like crazy at the higher difficulty levels isn't crazy, it's how CIV V should've been designed in the first place based solely on the fact that it's always optimal to have as many cities as possible. As for techs and science, again - it's not difficult to keep pace with the AI with proper use of policies, tech paths, and expansion. If you're having trouble keeping pace scientifically, adopt Rationalism early on, invest in science specialists, build mines, sign some RA's - and focus on recruiting barbarians to provide your early military power if possible.

As a newcomer to the mod, you probably haven't played all that many games yet - and with all due respect, you can't expect to just jump in and dominate - this isn't vanilla CIV V. :crazyeye:

I kind of feel the same way though, Markus. I've tried several games with the mod now, and I find I can never really keep up with the AI - I can keep up in some aspects if I focus on that, but other areas inevitably suffer.

I've repeatedly read comments like "it's possible to do X with proper techs, city placement and policies", but the flipside of that, and this is important, is that if you DON'T play with absolute efficiency you'll get swamped due to the crassly cheating AI. There's no room for mistakes. And that's not a good thing.

I've played vanilla, and yes it is too easy to beat the AI. But in NiGHTS, it is too hard. I can't enjoy the game this way.

I kind of feel the same way though, Markus. I've tried several games with the mod now, and I find I can never really keep up with the AI - I can keep up in some aspects if I focus on that, but other areas inevitably suffer.

I've repeatedly read comments like "it's possible to do X with proper techs, city placement and policies", but the flipside of that, and this is important, is that if you DON'T play with absolute efficiency you'll get swamped due to the crassly cheating AI. There's no room for mistakes. And that's not a good thing.

I've played vanilla, and yes it is too easy to beat the AI. But in NiGHTS, it is too hard. I can't enjoy the game this way.

What difficulty are you playing on? Between chopping, free policy workers, (and settlers), barb recruits, and specialists, you can change things up a lot and still stay ahead of the AI.

Lowering the difficulty would be my best advice, as there are players beating the mod on higher difficulty levels. Granted i've played the mod a lot, but I can easily vary up my playstyle and have 7-8 cities up after 100 turns while fielding a competitive army and maintaining a top science score on emperor and immortal.

The AI also gets less tech and happiness bonuses than in vanilla CIV V.

Once again your answers aren't exactly helpful.

Warlord, most of the time, which is difficulty 3.

In one game where I shared a small continent with China, playing as Iroquois, I thought I was doing reasonably well, getting 4-5 cities up against Wu's 2, and I was ahead in score too, but then she declared war on me (because I boxed her in with 2 cities). Although I'd gathered up some barbarian units by then, I was still vastly outnumbered and outclassed, and I lost my nearest city. And never mind the other AIs, most of them were far ahead of me points wise at that point.

I reloaded an autosave to see if I could save my city, in which I succeeded, but I was unable to turn the war around. Wu's cities had grown much faster than mine and she had built walls around them (strength close to 30). I basically couldn't touch them at all, not even with multiple siege weapons. Since the continent was pretty much full by then I was basically at a stalemate.

Now, it should be clear I'm not the best player around. I tend to pick techs that are easy to research and policies that will benefit me the most at that particular moment, because I can't anticipate what I will need later very well. Still, it felt very much like my enemy got advantages that tended toward the unfair. I'm hoping that, in time, the AI can compete without relying on such drastic bonuses.

This is the issue I found it just turns into a stalemate at best. As far as I've seen this mod just isn't balanced.

Once again your answers aren't exactly helpful.

Don't know what to say, vonbach, other than lower the difficulty level. Playing on marathon or epic will make the game easier, as will playing without CS's and on smaller maps. Its had over 100,000 downloads, and overall there have been more complaints about the mod being too easy as opposed to being too difficult.

When I get home from class I'll post some early strategies that might help out those of you that are struggling, but I won't be lowering the overall difficulty anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong though, I think your effort in making and maintaining this mod is great and, by it, you've done a lot of people a favor. I'm a big fan of game modding in general, so I quite respect anyone who spends time and effort on making mods in the way you've done. It just doesn't seem your mod is for me, at the moment.

Can you fit through doors with that head?
If the mods not balanced its the programmers
fault not the players. Sorry I've heard the
"L2P N00B" routine before.:rolleyes:

The mod is not entirely balanced.

That said, it is VASTLY superior to vanilla, and I can attest to the fact that time, patience, and learning will improve your score with time. Just like any other game. NiGHTS is essentially Civ v5.5, imo, and so cannot be treated as a simple mod. You're playing a new game, give yourself time to learn.

I was frustrated with the mod at first, too, but if you keep grinding away at it, you'll find strategies and patterns emerge. I wont list any of my play strategies, as I play on Prince, and am still learning myself, but be assured that the mod is fairly well balanced- not ENTIRELY, no game ever really accomplishes that. But it comes close enough to be completely playable and FUN!


Edit:
Vonbach, I think your pride is the real issue here if you take someone advising you to lower the difficulty as them being arrogant or brushing you off. It's entirely plausible that you simply haven't given yourself enough time to learn the mod. Insulting the author for what can only be seen to be your own lack of competence really is quite inappropriate and childish. If you don't like it, either leave constructive criticism, or move on. No need to get vitriolic.

Can you fit through doors with that head?
If the mods not balanced its the programmers
fault not the players. Sorry I've heard the
"L2P N00B" routine before.:rolleyes:

What Teholb said, the mod isn't entirely balanced - and neither is vanilla Civ V. Its currently too easy to get gold and buy city states, which makes the mod too easy, if anything, on higher difficulty levels.

Having said that, this mod currently has a development team of one, and I balance working on it along with a full time job and school. Its not perfect by any means, but that doesn't negate the fact that you're clearly inexperienced at playing it based on your comments and based on the fact that there are people out there that can dominate the mod at immortal, while you struggle on lower difficulties.

What Teholb said, the mod isn't entirely balanced

Then balance it.Vonbach, I think your pride is the real issue here if you take someone advising you to lower the difficulty as them being arrogant or brushing you off. It's entirely plausible that you simply haven't given yourself enough time to learn the mod. Insulting the author for what can only be seen to be your own lack of competence really is quite inappropriate and childish. If you don't like it, either leave constructive criticism, or move on. No need to get vitriolic.
No the issue is the author is being arrogant and insulting to me.
Constructive criticism is what we are trying to do. We got told
essentially to L2P N00B. Sorry its not a helpful answer.

Then balance it.
Oh, so you already created a lot of mods and know how easy that is?
I am playing a game on Marathon currently and I think it's almost perfectly balanced. Not so much on lower speeds but negligible to win a game in this awesome mod.
No the issue is the author is being arrogant and insulting to me.
Constructive criticism is what we are trying to do. We got told
essentially to L2P N00B. Sorry its not a helpful answer.
After reading that I had to read all previous posts again and I have to say that the only one who is insulting is you. Markus tried to be helpful all of the time and there are no more simple tips to win a game, except perhaps that you download the "IGE" mod. With that you can cheat and gain all advantages you want, maybe that reflects your playstyle.
I already tried a lot of mods and when I didn't like one of them I tried another one instead of complaining how much better the author could do. Constructive criticism yes, but not what you do. NiGHTS is the best mod out there even though it is still in beta stage and I would refuse to play civ without it.

Criticism is what we were trying to do. I'm tired of fighting
with you people. Honestly if you don't want to hear it, fine.
Its pretty much the only issue I've seen with this mod to be honest.
Other that its a good mod. I especially like the UB the civs have.
All I'm looking for is a normal difficulty game with this mod really.

I tried responding here and wrote something too long to fit. If you're having trouble try playing like me. How to Break Civ NiGHTS (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11284307#post11284307).

A large, sprawling empire will always dominate small/tall empires - especially when population = science.

I second this, and that's a very good point. Honestly, ICS is only a problem in vanilla Civ V because of the bizarre way that the base game implements happiness. The fact that it's empire wide isn't a problem, but the fact that high populations prevented you from expanding makes no logical sense. The ICS strategy takes advantage of this idiocy, meaning that an empire that caps growth at 4 or 5 people per city and spews out settlers will mop the floor with one that tries to model actual history and increase it's population naturally.

In NiGHTS, the problem isn't anywhere near as serious as far as I can see. My general strategy, and one that almost always works, is to expand in the beginning with an emphasis on growing my borders and gaining resources. I can space them pretty far apart and do just fine. Once I've expanded geographically a good deal, I find that I've got a metric ton of excess happiness after a while, so I just start plopping new cities down wherever it makes sense within my borders. Due to NiGHTS' abundance of specialists, you don't have to worry too much about unemployment like in older Civ games.

Basically this mirrors reality. More cities = more business = more productivity = more beaurocracy/micromanagement. When there are more workers than there is work to be done, specialists are created, which in reality increases the number of intellectuals and people in "service" industries. Practically, this means that a few tall cities will produce more science (and be easier to manage), but must not neglect their defenses, because a civilization with a ton of cities can crank out more military units. Makes sense to me.

Have I mentioned that I love NiGHTS? In fact, I love it enough that I'm not buying Gods and Kings until NiGHTS works with it. Keep up the good work!

I want to start by saying I love the mod and appreciate the work done on it. I play for several hours, every day.

With that said, I agree with some of the earlier comments. I have started a game on warlord (easy) with Austria (free apothecary) several times. I immediately get a scout, worker, settler, then start stonehenge. Rush to feudalism, get the free settler in social policies and have 3 cites pretty fast. Meaning, 3 free apothecaries gaining science. After this point, I try to maintain expansion while trying to grab a wonder when I can. Eventually, some area suffers, as you can only build one item per city at a time. I have games, where I'm leading the board in science, and researching with a goal (not just scattershot), and the AI has the wonder built before I even get the tech.

Early wonders don't come cheap (turn-wise). And I'm not saying they should. However, it is quite mathematically impossible for the AI to spend 30+ turns building a wonder, AND have the massive troops that it has, AND build the buildings required to support those troops with happiness and gold. Oh yeah, AND somehow finding time build settlers/workers to keep pushing out more cities.

The way the AI jams the cities so close to each other, they have to be sharing work tiles. By sharing work tiles, this should limit their pop limit, hammers, food, gold on a per city level. A less efficient city should not be able to pop a wonder 5-8 turns after getting the tech for it. It should take longer, as they don't have as many tiles to work. For example. The AI city working 11 tiles because it is jammed so close to other cities, should easily be beat to a wonder by a city working 18 tiles, given equivalent terrain. In the case of the AI expanding so fast, keeping city size smaller and cramming them close together, the AI would have to be way ahead in science so it could start the wonder, well in advance, of a Civ building large cities.

Just got back to playing Civilization Nights. (Celts, prince level, normal speed, continents) It was very challenging, it seemed like England just kept beating me on most of the Wonders. Fortunately, I spread to 6 cities and had enough units that the AI left me alone. I invested heavily in the patronage tree, and had almost all of the city states as allies, when England completed the UN. They also had 48,000 gold in reserve. Noone else had much gold, so I allied with 1 more city state and declared war on England. Cheesy, but effective.

Going to play on warlord level, next game.

I second this, and that's a very good point. Honestly, ICS is only a problem in vanilla Civ V because of the bizarre way that the base game implements happiness. The fact that it's empire wide isn't a problem, but the fact that high populations prevented you from expanding makes no logical sense. The ICS strategy takes advantage of this idiocy, meaning that an empire that caps growth at 4 or 5 people per city and spews out settlers will mop the floor with one that tries to model actual history and increase it's population naturally.

In NiGHTS, the problem isn't anywhere near as serious as far as I can see. My general strategy, and one that almost always works, is to expand in the beginning with an emphasis on growing my borders and gaining resources. I can space them pretty far apart and do just fine. Once I've expanded geographically a good deal, I find that I've got a metric ton of excess happiness after a while, so I just start plopping new cities down wherever it makes sense within my borders. Due to NiGHTS' abundance of specialists, you don't have to worry too much about unemployment like in older Civ games.

Basically this mirrors reality. More cities = more business = more productivity = more beaurocracy/micromanagement. When there are more workers than there is work to be done, specialists are created, which in reality increases the number of intellectuals and people in "service" industries. Practically, this means that a few tall cities will produce more science (and be easier to manage), but must not neglect their defenses, because a civilization with a ton of cities can crank out more military units. Makes sense to me.

Have I mentioned that I love NiGHTS? In fact, I love it enough that I'm not buying Gods and Kings until NiGHTS works with it. Keep up the good work!

Thanks MetalPhilosophe - there've been a few changes in G+K's, but I think the overall experience is probably better balanced now than in vanilla, (although I kind of wish religion/faith was more than a rehash of culture/policies).

I want to start by saying I love the mod and appreciate the work done on it. I play for several hours, every day.

With that said, I agree with some of the earlier comments. I have started a game on warlord (easy) with Austria (free apothecary) several times. I immediately get a scout, worker, settler, then start stonehenge. Rush to feudalism, get the free settler in social policies and have 3 cites pretty fast. Meaning, 3 free apothecaries gaining science. After this point, I try to maintain expansion while trying to grab a wonder when I can. Eventually, some area suffers, as you can only build one item per city at a time. I have games, where I'm leading the board in science, and researching with a goal (not just scattershot), and the AI has the wonder built before I even get the tech.

Early wonders don't come cheap (turn-wise). And I'm not saying they should. However, it is quite mathematically impossible for the AI to spend 30+ turns building a wonder, AND have the massive troops that it has, AND build the buildings required to support those troops with happiness and gold. Oh yeah, AND somehow finding time build settlers/workers to keep pushing out more cities.

The way the AI jams the cities so close to each other, they have to be sharing work tiles. By sharing work tiles, this should limit their pop limit, hammers, food, gold on a per city level. A less efficient city should not be able to pop a wonder 5-8 turns after getting the tech for it. It should take longer, as they don't have as many tiles to work. For example. The AI city working 11 tiles because it is jammed so close to other cities, should easily be beat to a wonder by a city working 18 tiles, given equivalent terrain. In the case of the AI expanding so fast, keeping city size smaller and cramming them close together, the AI would have to be way ahead in science so it could start the wonder, well in advance, of a Civ building large cities.

The AI do settle much quicker than in vanilla, but I've also made it so that the rate at which they settle is accelerated if they start off on weak terrain, (tundra/desert) - so if you see an AI early on with 5 cities to your 3, all of his cities are mostly small and/or weakly defended (although their rate of expansion has been slowed a bit in G+K's, and I think I've found a good middle ground now between rates of expansion in IV vs V).

Just got back to playing Civilization Nights. (Celts, prince level, normal speed, continents) It was very challenging, it seemed like England just kept beating me on most of the Wonders. Fortunately, I spread to 6 cities and had enough units that the AI left me alone. I invested heavily in the patronage tree, and had almost all of the city states as allies, when England completed the UN. They also had 48,000 gold in reserve. Noone else had much gold, so I allied with 1 more city state and declared war on England. Cheesy, but effective.

Going to play on warlord level, next game.

It can be challenging - especially if you have an AI that's also playing the wonder game. I've had it a lot where I'd be continually beaten by like 3-5 turns on various wonders. Although I'd prefer this to vanilla, where if you really want to get Stonehenge or another early wonder, you'll get it. Likewise with city locations, I found that after playing vanilla CIV V (and vanilla G+K's), if I really wanted a city location, I would get it. The AI just wouldn't be able to beat me to it - and that really took a lot of the tension/strategy out of the early game for me.

On the diplo-front, once the .dll comes out, hopefully something can be done about the UN so that it doesn't come down to just how much gold you have. :crazyeye:

i dont rightly understand how can you have any problems at all on lower difficulties; hell, even on immortal I outrun all AI civilizations by production, science, gold, and expansion. Of course you need to have a decent start with production-boosting tiles near the capital at least.

After the last game, when I've earned about 50k gold to turn 190, I feel like I''l be able to handle a large deity map as well. Even though my experience with NIGHTS is little I can safely say, that in many ways it's a lot easier to play than vanilla g&k

i dont rightly understand how can you have any problems at all on lower difficulties; hell, even on immortal I outrun all AI civilizations by production, science, gold, and expansion. Of course you need to have a decent start with production-boosting tiles near the capital at least.

After the last game, when I've earned about 50k gold to turn 190, I feel like I''l be able to handle a large deity map as well. Even though my experience with NIGHTS is little I can safely say, that in many ways it's a lot easier to play than vanilla g&k

A lot depends on the map, the civs and starting resources. I've been trying "not yet another earth maps pack" on "large europe" as Arabia with the usual CS settings (and I gave up on that as you only have one (1) CS near you) and various other settings -- the best I've had so far is all goes well into @ 1850 and then some AI or other pulls away in points and more importantly in science which I believe they mostly get from their CS.(and of course Austria being on the map marries everyone -- they should call her the "whore of Babylon" :))

So if you are having an easy time or if you want something different I'd suggest that map. :)

But I confess I don't like to war and there must be something in warring to stop the AI from science as well as expansion which is what they seem to do amongst themselves but I'm not really sure if it works the other way 'round.

PS I haven't played vanilla since it came out or G&K vanilla as I thought the original was very disappointing and have only played this mod as I think Nights is closest in spirit to what the Civ series is.:)

PS -- use all the civs, I think 19 on that map :)

Having to expand like crazy at the higher difficulty levels isn't crazy, it's how CIV V should've been designed in the first place based solely on the fact that it's always optimal to have as many cities as possible.

You're certainly correct that Civ V is designed in a way that makes ICS ideal. But why is that necessarily a good thing? I would hope that one of the things you could do with a comprehensive mod like this one is add some real tradeoffs that mean ICS is not the best-and-only strategy for every situation.

Certainly, making it so that the AI does ICS too makes the game more challenging. But I still don't feel like it's the ideal solution.

YMMV, of course.