View Full Version : Deconstruction of IGN article


Pouakai
Feb 16, 2012, 10:31 AM
http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/121/1218810p1.html

Mentions that the bizarre tank seen in the Combustion tech is referred to as a 'land ship'

Religions can be built on terrain, so nearby mountains can be benefited through religion

Religious policy 'Tithing' means all cities of the faith, regardless of civilization, generate gold for you.

Founder belief 'Just War' gives a 20% boost to military units

Civilizations with conflicting policies (I.e. Freedom & Autocracy) will have diplo hit

Spies can steal technologies

Spies can rig elections, which appears to boost your favour in city-states while penalising others

Spies can initiate coups.

Units have a lot more health, meaning "They can't be blasted off in one turn"

WWI-era Bi-Planes and Tri-planes (Undoubtedly the two units on Flight)

Melee naval units, these can capture cities

All embarked units can now defend themselves (Presumably new UA for Songhai now)

Mayan civilization gets Calendar-related Cultural bonuses

New Privateer Unit

anandus
Feb 16, 2012, 10:38 AM
Founder belief 'Just War' gives a boost to military units20% to be precise.

The_J
Feb 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
:thumbsup: great, I've updated the overview with some of these info :).

Pouakai
Feb 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
Added, I also added the Privateer which was mentioned

forty2j
Feb 16, 2012, 11:14 AM
Units have a lot more health, meaning "They can't be blasted off in one turn"


This is interesting. I had thought the more health was a solution to the spearman vs. airplane and "minimum 1 damage" problem.

Gamewizard
Feb 16, 2012, 02:36 PM
Well hopeully tanks can "blast-off" spearmen in one turn still.

Hammer Rabbi
Feb 16, 2012, 04:17 PM
i wonder if the melee naval unit can clear a barb hut if they can take a city by water. some naval unit should be able to disembark to clear one but not wander around and scout by land.

steave435
Feb 16, 2012, 04:43 PM
i wonder if the melee naval unit can clear a barb hut if they can take a city by water. some naval unit should be able to disembark to clear one but not wander around and scout by land.
Naval units can enter coastal cities, but they can't enter land, so almost certainly no.

Camikaze
Feb 16, 2012, 05:22 PM
This is interesting. I had thought the more health was a solution to the spearman vs. airplane and "minimum 1 damage" problem.

Could be a bit of both. If they've made it a finer grain, then presumably the minimum damage won't be 10.

Hammer Rabbi
Feb 16, 2012, 06:47 PM
Naval units can enter coastal cities, but they can't enter land, so almost certainly no.

im fairly pessimistic about it, but 10 guys on a trireme and you cant send 5 of them on land to pillage and clear a hut? quite irritating really. i think it should only apply to huts within range of an attack and even be a movement cost without actually having an animation of guys pillaging it.

they did say that would drastically change naval combat. as it is people mostly play pangaea so they dont have to specifically tech for sea units. getting to the Ren era for Rationalism and Freedom is the biggest use of that whole line.

and if all embarked units can now defend i wonder if the submarine bug will be fixed or if their utility will be nerfed. i only use them for 1-shot removal of embarked units and passing under ice.

NotSure
Feb 16, 2012, 06:50 PM
This is interesting. I had thought the more health was a solution to the spearman vs. airplane and "minimum 1 damage" problem.

I think it addresses both problems too. Another thing that occurred to me (probably was obvious to others) was, if it takes more turns to resolve combat, that obviously benefits the side with more forces. So, those early rushes that we would laugh at and defend with a couple of archers and a warrior, might be more of a threat? Will be interesting to see.

CivilizedPlayer
Feb 16, 2012, 07:52 PM
Why would it benefit the side with more forces? It seems to me (purely speculating) that it would benefit the defender. The longer combat lasts, the longer the attackers have to stand in range of the defender's cities.

NotSure
Feb 17, 2012, 12:46 AM
Why would it benefit the side with more forces? It seems to me (purely speculating) that it would benefit the defender. The longer combat lasts, the longer the attackers have to stand in range of the defender's cities.

Units last longer, so they can withstand the ranged and melee damage of a smaller defensive force but still have enough HP to deal killing blows to that smaller force. The larger force would also have enough HP left to rotate out (if in really bad shape) or siege a city. Unless I'm missing something longer combat is a problem for a player with very light defenses.

AriochIV
Feb 17, 2012, 12:52 AM
A word of warning... a lot of the early Civ V previews (IGN's in particular) were WILDLY inaccurate when it came to details.

Revoran
Feb 17, 2012, 12:53 AM
Religions can be built on terrain, so nearby mountains can be benefited through religion

What is this supposed to mean?

NotSure
Feb 17, 2012, 06:38 AM
I noticed I didn't mention one of the reasons I assumed the greater HP scale would benefit superior numbers. I assumed (based on the articles) that units would also inflict a lower percentage of damage. I assumed that promotions and bonuses, such as the new "just war" bonus (which sounds like a great idea) would become overwhelming if the scale remained the same. So, basically, I'm making a lot of assumptions.

When I saw some of the details about the reworked combat system the first thing I thought was how this could impact the AI tendency to try early rushes. Then this brings me back to reality...

A word of warning... a lot of the early Civ V previews (IGN's in particular) were WILDLY inaccurate when it came to details.

Sound advise.:)

apocalypse105
Feb 17, 2012, 06:46 AM
I hope its true that diplomacy will improve

Camikaze
Feb 17, 2012, 06:57 AM
What is this supposed to mean?

'Built' as in 'based on', I would say, rather than literally constructed on that physical location. From the article:
For instance, if you live amongst a series of mountains you might pick a pantheon of gods that take them into account. Having gods that complement your geography could result in national benefits, such as making stone quarries both a natural resource and a site with religious significance that generates faith.
So like a yield modifier, I guess. For instance, the one in the screenshot it 'Religious Idols- +1 Culture and +1 Faith for each Gold and Silver'. Presumably there's also one that gives + something to mountains, or + something to stone quarries.

Thorburne
Feb 17, 2012, 03:15 PM
Some of the details about the customizability of religion seems to open the doors wide open for a fantasy mod.

if you live amongst a series of mountains you might pick a pantheon of gods that take them into account.

Can you say "Dwarves"?

nokmirt
Feb 18, 2012, 04:51 AM
The bizarre tank looks like a British Mark IV.

Seek
Feb 18, 2012, 09:21 AM
Not from the IGN article, but I haven't seen this commented on, and this seems like the best place for it, so..

In the interview with Dennis Shirk (http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cbs-News-PC-Civilization-5-God-Kings-Interview-Shirk-7318992.html) on the German site, he mentions that "There will be events in the game, the actual historical roots and friendship between peoples historically easier or more difficult." ("Es soll im Spiel Ereignisse geben, die tatsächliche geschichtliche Wurzeln haben und Freundschaften zwischen Völkern historisch erleichtern oder erschweren.")

Can any German speakers shed any light on this? Was he just talking about normal game events, or are there going to be Civ4-style, capital-E Events added?

I wish the original interview was available.:sad:

The_J
Feb 18, 2012, 09:40 AM
:dunno: can't really get any other info out of the original text, so we don't know :dunno:.

Thorburne
Feb 18, 2012, 06:14 PM
Not from the IGN article, but I haven't seen this commented on, and this seems like the best place for it, so..

In the interview with Dennis Shirk (http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cbs-News-PC-Civilization-5-God-Kings-Interview-Shirk-7318992.html) on the German site, he mentions that "There will be events in the game, the actual historical roots and friendship between peoples historically easier or more difficult." ("Es soll im Spiel Ereignisse geben, die tatsächliche geschichtliche Wurzeln haben und Freundschaften zwischen Völkern historisch erleichtern oder erschweren.")

Can any German speakers shed any light on this? Was he just talking about normal game events, or are there going to be Civ4-style, capital-E Events added?

I wish the original interview was available.:sad:

Unfortunately, my German is so rusty I couldn't even read about 98% of that line. What I am assuming it is referring to is the CS quests as they have commented that they have expanded on those. They stated that they wanted to make the CS diplomacy more than just whoever is the economic powerhouse wins the CS's. In a way, the CS quests took the place of the Random Events from Civ IV: BTS.

(I still think that they should have incorporated the CS diplomacy mod into the game. ;) )

Trias
Feb 19, 2012, 09:00 AM
Civilizations with conflicting policies (I.e. Freedom & Autocracy) will have diplo hit


So we are back to the AI make choices based on things that have nothing to do with there own interests. Sad.

Gucumatz
Feb 19, 2012, 10:48 AM
Es soll im Spiel Ereignisse geben, die tatsächliche geschichtliche Wurzeln haben und Freundschaften zwischen Völkern historisch erleichtern oder erschweren

There should/will be events in game that have historical roots and friendships/relations between peoples will become better or worse from these events (Sounds like more to me between major civs there may be random events/modifiers).

Thats my rough translation. Not sure if it helps you.

AriochIV
Feb 19, 2012, 12:01 PM
I liked events too. Civ V could really benefit them, as right now it's in desperate need of something to break the "Next Turn" button mashing monotony when you're not at war.

justkilled
Feb 19, 2012, 12:52 PM
I made a rough back translation of the interview from ComputerBild Spiele

Disclaimer: my english could be improved. And the german interview is already pretty messy anyway. So please don't shoot me for any things lost in translation (or english grammar ;) )

[Interview Starts]

CBS: The expansion is named "Gods&Kings". Is religion back in the game?

DS: That’s the case. But the fans will see, that we use this element totally different than in the previous installment. (FYI: Religions were last included in "Civilization 4")

CBS: Different in what manner?

DS: At the beginning each player builds a kind of pantheon - an early religion. With this he can archive up to three "believes", which are one time bonuses. If a player settles in a highland terrain, he would choose a "believe" which leads to each quarry being a place of religious worship. In this manner he earns faith.

CBS: What can I do with faith?

DS: Sooner or later the player will receive a great prophet which will announce a world religion. With this you receive two additional "believe"-slots, which will be mighty. The 30 pantheon believes are good, but the 20 world religion "believes" are much more powerful. The five which the player chooses are only available to him. Each "believe" is unique and after being taken it is locked for the other players.

CBS: Does a religion disappear if the founding civilization is destroyed?

DS: No, it doesn't work this way. World religions spread without boarders. There is even one "believe" which allows the player to tax every believer - even the population of foreign countries.

CBS: What additional changes are included in the expansion?

DS: The diplomacy changes considerable. There shall be events which have their roots in the real history and will make friendships between the peoples easier or harder. The religion will also play a role in this. Starting at the age of renaissance spies with amazing capabilities will be available for the use against opponents.

CBS: Which capabilities do they have?

DS: The coolest ability is option to see the basic direction another reign will take and to see, what the leader wants to build and what troop movements he plans for the next 20-30 moves. With this knowledge you can counteract a war or prepare for it. For this however you need a superspy.

CBS: And how do I get one?

DS: With experience. Spies level up, each successful action gives points and the spy will get better. If he dies, one starts with a new one having no experience. So you should deploy them carefully.

CBS: The city states were a new element in "Civilization 5". Is there some enchantment for this feature ?

DS: Yes. There are new types of cities, e.g. a religious. And we will hinder the simple improvement of the influence through gold payments. The cooperation with the city and the accomplishment of favors will be more in the focus. You have to play harder to turn a city into a friend or an ally.

CBS: Usually there is no expansion without new civs and military units. Are you keeping this tradition?

DS: Certainly! Nine new civilizations are included in the expansion, e.g. the Maya, the Kelts and Carthage. Regards military there will be a lot going on at the sees. We got the impression that we had to improve here. There are melee-naval units, siege from the sea is possible and with the admiral there is a new leader in the game.

CBS: You have excluded spies and religion from "Civilization 5" - core elements in "Civilization 4". Now they are coming back. Why?

DS: The fans have decided. In the new installment they praised the differences of the civilizations, e.g. that India can be played pretty well with just a few cities, while Russia goes for rapid expansion. This differences, this individuality is what we want to increase with the addition of religions and espionage. But like I said at the beginning, both elements are used differently than in "Civilization 4".

AriochIV
Feb 19, 2012, 03:15 PM
So it appears that a Pantheon is a proto-Religion that gets one Belief from a separate pool, and the formal "Religion" is founded when you get your first Great Prophet, and then adds new Beliefs from a separate pool.

Thorburne
Feb 19, 2012, 07:40 PM
DS: At the beginning each player builds a kind of pantheon - an early religion. With this he can archive up to three "believes", which are one time bonuses. If a player settles in a highland terrain, he would choose a "believe" which leads to each quarry being a place of religious worship. In this manner he earns faith.

I wonder if the symbols shown are selectable from a larger group that you can use to represent your religion? Or if there are more religions than are shown. From the way the above statement sounds, each religion is created at the start of the game and each Civ has its own religion. With only eleven religions shown, what would that mean for playing games with more than 11 Civs?

Also, I did notice that it looks like you can rename the religion in the one screenshot.

Edit: I just read the rest of the above interview and I think I am more confused.

Louis XXIV
Feb 19, 2012, 07:52 PM
Everyone has a generic pantheon. However, you can found an organized religion. The organized religions give better bonuses, but there are fewer of them. In some cases, you might only be a follower of an organized religion instead of a founder.

nokmirt
Feb 19, 2012, 08:11 PM
He mentions the idea that some people will get along others will not. Does religion have a fundamental say in all this? Or is it that some people are just too different in their deep seated roots, which will make them not be friendly to each other, or certainly test their relations? An interesting thought. Worthy of all the speculation.

"There shall be events which have their roots in the real history and will make friendships between the peoples easier or harder." So some relationships are going to influenced by real history. I wonder what these events are? Hmm!

fat_tonle
Feb 19, 2012, 08:33 PM
Yeah I don't get it....

So you get to choose one of 6 categories or pantheons with 5 beliefs each and you build off that for your unique "ancient" religion? Or can you select from any 30 beliefs???

And for the major religion. Let's say I get a Prophet first and found Buddhism or Hinduism. What bonuses would I be getting from that? Is that a pool of 20 something bonuses that I can choose from to customize that religion? Or can I only choose from one of five categories (and 4 respective traits) comprising those 20 custom traits?

anandus
Feb 19, 2012, 11:44 PM
As I understood it the very first belief is the Pantheon, a primitive form of religion, which you can choose from a pool of twenty pantheon beliefs (according to IGN). These will be tied to resources or your environment and suc.
Then after a while you will get your first prophet, which will allow you to choose your religion and another two beliefs. After even longer you'll get a second prophet to allow another two beliefs.

It is as of yet unknown of the different type of beliefs (founder, follower and enhanced) share the same pool of beliefs to choose from or if they'll have their own pools.

AriochIV
Feb 20, 2012, 01:28 AM
As I understood it the very first belief is the Pantheon, a primitive form of religion, which you can choose from a pool of twenty pantheon beliefs (according to IGN). These will be tied to resources or your environment and suc.
Then after a while you will get your first prophet, which will allow you to choose your religion and another two beliefs. After even longer you'll get a second prophet to allow another two beliefs.

It is as of yet unknown of the different type of beliefs (founder, follower and enhanced) share the same pool of beliefs to choose from or if they'll have their own pools.
The small size of the scrollbox available for the Founder Belief choices (looks like 8 or 9) does imply that Founder, Follower and Enhancer Beliefs are pulled from separate pools.

steave435
Feb 20, 2012, 02:30 AM
The small size of the scrollbox available for the Founder Belief choices (looks like 8 or 9) does imply that Founder, Follower and Enhancer Beliefs are pulled from separate pools.

I'd say it indicates the opposite since which ones are available is probably filtered based on the religion you've created. If you go with Christianity, you don't get the same options as if you go with Hinduism.

Deggial
Feb 20, 2012, 02:40 AM
If you go with Christianity, you don't get the same options as if you go with Hinduism.

I disagree completely! Im totally convinced, that firaxis will *not* fall into the trap of religious prejudice! In fact, they will avoid this like... well... hell!

So, being able to pick your own benefits out of a common pool - based of *your own* perception of a religion (or maybe just needs gamewise) - is fine. But there will *not* be any "typical" benefits for different religions.

And for good reason!

anandus
Feb 20, 2012, 02:52 AM
I'd say it indicates the opposite since which ones are available is probably filtered based on the religion you've created. If you go with Christianity, you don't get the same options as if you go with Hinduism.That would make no sense at all, the whole point of a game like civ is to play different hypothetical scenarios.
I think it'll be a 'create your own religion'-thing and tha the religion names are there more for show.

I don't think there are a lot of people that'd like the religions to mimic true religions.

Also the fact that beliefs are unique (once you choose a belief no one else can take it) definitely implies the beliefs are spread out over all religions.

Besides it would be too much work. say 8 beliefs, times 11 religions, then they'd have to make 88 beliefs, next to the 20 or so for the pantheon.

steave435
Feb 20, 2012, 03:02 AM
What would the point of having a set number of religions be if nothing differentiate those religions from each other?

anandus
Feb 20, 2012, 03:03 AM
What would the point of having a set number of religions be if nothing differentiate those religions from each other?Flavour.

Thorburne
Feb 20, 2012, 04:59 AM
Just an aside note, I went to IGN and was a bit disturbed by something. While some may not consider it a big deal, I noticed that the "Buzz" ratings for Civ 5: G&K and X-COM: EU were very low (What? and ZZZ respectively). The FPS X-COM was even higher than both with a solid and that has been pushed back to infinity.

I just want to encourage members here who have an IGN account to be sure to go over there and follow both G&K and EU so that we can show the IGNers and gamer wannabees the whatfor! ;)

Long live strategy games!

Back to the previous topic, I think that there will be some differences that seperate the religions, even if it is just special buildings (like the Shrines from Civ IV). There could even be some simple bonuses that help differentiate the religions a bit. They don't necessarily have to be stereotypical, but can relate to the accepted differences between the religions.

Camikaze
Feb 20, 2012, 05:06 AM
What would the point of having a set number of religions be if nothing differentiate those religions from each other?

Will there would be something that differentiates them; it'd just be different difference in every game. If there were more religions, they'd have to come up with more beliefs to have enough to go around.

Louis XXIV
Feb 20, 2012, 06:14 AM
What would the point of having a set number of religions be if nothing differentiate those religions from each other?

Well, they start as a blank slate, but they diversify themselves with things you select.

nokmirt
Feb 20, 2012, 06:41 AM
I disagree completely! Im totally convinced, that firaxis will *not* fall into the trap of religious prejudice! In fact, they will avoid this like... well... hell!

So, being able to pick your own benefits out of a common pool - based of *your own* perception of a religion (or maybe just needs gamewise) - is fine. But there will *not* be any "typical" benefits for different religions.

And for good reason!

It would have nothing to do with prejudice, just reality based on each religions seperate beliefs, which each religion is built on. Each religion would be important to the "believers", yet would of course have to be different from each other. There has to be wonderous variety and diversity here. The prejudice argument is getting very old. Keep that to real life, where it is just an excuse for animosity. In the game keep religions diverse and different, which is how they should be. So therefore benefits should be in some respects different, not all though. Otherwise you might as well just have one all encompassing religion. If thats the case just leave it out.

Now imagine I found Judaism and it develops from my choices into a clone of Islam, wouldn't tha be disconcerting. Especially if the player is Jewish? LOL! I shouldn't think too much, but this does strike me as funny. Joking aside the best thing about religions is that they differ. To regard them as anything else calls mankind stupid, which it is not because look at all of the wonderous possibilities and thoughts brought on by one's beliefs. Religion is a guide for you through life. Even if you do not believe in god, you believe in something that drives you on. This is how I see it.

anandus
Feb 20, 2012, 06:48 AM
It would have nothing to do with prejudice, just reality based on each religions seperate beliefs, which each religion is built on. Each religion would be important to the "believers", yet would of course have to be different from each other. There has to be wonderous variety and diversity here. The prejudice argument is getting very old. Keep that to real life, where it is just an excuse fo animosity. In the game keep religions diverse and different, which is how they should be.But the religions in game are diverse. By definition, as no two religions will have the same belief.
The "believers" would be able to roleplay their own religion by choosing the beliefs that they think would fit in well with their own religion :)
Well not only believers, of course, also people who would like to play a 'realistic religion game'.
You can make a religion just like you think it ought to be, or the exact opposite if that's what you want.

Deggial
Feb 20, 2012, 07:00 AM
It would have nothing to do with prejudice, just reality based on each religions seperate beliefs, which each religion is built on. Each religion would be important to the "believers", yet would of course have to be different from each other.

Yes, but what exactly differs Christianity from Islam? Spoken in game terms, of course (say: bonuses). Who will decide, how to implement each religion? Don't you see the minefield, here?

Now imagine I found Judaism and it develops from my choices into a clone of Islam, wouldn't tha be disconcerting. Especially if the player is Jewish?

After all, the said jewish player may develope "his" religion exactly as *he* think it should be (if he pretends to roleplay and not only maximize game benefits). So, if he creates a second islam - it's *his* choice!

In the game keep religions diverse and different, which is how they should be. So therefore benefits should be in some respects different.

But this is exacly how it will be! Remember? A bonus taken will make this bonus unavailable for all other religions.
So: everything we want - without the danger of offend anybody!

I'm fine with this approach!

--

Edit: anandus was faster...

nokmirt
Feb 20, 2012, 08:38 AM
Yes, but what exactly differs Christianity from Islam? Spoken in game terms, of course (say: bonuses). Who will decide, how to implement each religion? Don't you see the minefield, here?



After all, the said jewish player may develope "his" religion exactly as *he* think it should be (if he pretends to roleplay and not only maximize game benefits). So, if he creates a second islam - it's *his* choice!



But this is exacly how it will be! Remember? A bonus taken will make this bonus unavailable for all other religions.
So: everything we want - without the danger of offend anybody!

I'm fine with this approach!

--

Edit: anandus was faster...

Just as I said. So there is no need for you to be prejudice. Now is there? I mean what I said is fairly straight forward. Its not very difficult to understand that I was joking in the 2nd paragraph. Wow!

nokmirt
Feb 20, 2012, 08:42 AM
But the religions in game are diverse. By definition, as no two religions will have the same belief.
The "believers" would be able to roleplay their own religion by choosing the beliefs that they think would fit in well with their own religion :)
Well not only believers, of course, also people who would like to play a 'realistic religion game'.
You can make a religion just like you think it ought to be, or the exact opposite if that's what you want.

It would have nothing to do with prejudice, just reality based on each religions seperate beliefs, which each religion is built on. Each religion would be important to the "believers", yet would of course have to be different from each other.

Exactly what I posted there are no buts about it. Where did this but religions in the game are diverse, come from??? I said that in my quote. [Each religion would be important to the "believers", yet would of course have to be different from each other.

Now we all know in the game religions have to be different. My second paragraph of my original quote, reinforces my ideas about how I see religion. But it should not deter the fact that in the game religions are to be different. I just simply stated that there will be no need for prejudice. Thats all.

In any case there will still have to be some differences in apparent religions. They cannot be just different by name. I wonder how these will be portrayed. Shrines, buildings, omens? There will have to be something. Maybe relation wise. Christians and Moslems get a diplomatic hit when trying to be friends. Things like that. No one knows its all speculation. Prepare for the Crusades! Or Buddhism against Confucianism an even worse friend maker! I cannot wait to see how they approach this. However they do this, it will make at least someone mad, because they can't just leave things within a game perimeter, they have to associate this kind of thing with real life. Truly people it is just a game. :mischief:

Deggial
Feb 20, 2012, 09:05 AM
Just as I said. So there is no need for you to be prejudice. Now is there? I mean what I said is fairly straight forward. Its not very difficult to understand. Wow!

Sorry if I didn't understand you right or if I wasn't abel to make my point as clear as I wanted. Obviously enough, I'm no nativ speaker.

First of all, I don't think I did write anything about *me* being prejudiced. (Where does *this* come from? Additionally, reading your reply to anandus, I got the impression that we shouldn't differ at all, so why the offense? Maybe I *really* missed your point?)
What I *tried* to say is, that any premade bonus only can be based on prejudice, as a simple "+1 happienes" (or whatever) can *never* reflect the deepness of a religious belief.

All of this is an academic discusion anyway, as the designers decided to take another approach.

But just for the sake of being concrete: *What* sort of game bonus do you think as appropriate for real existing religions without being inexcusable superficial at all?

Please, don't take this as a personal offense, as this is *not* intended at all! I just wonder, which choices could the *game designers* do, without annoying anybody?
Hey, people are annoyed here, only because the leaders don't speak the correct language! What do you think will happen with "premade religious bonuses"? (As you said yourself: Somebody *will* go mad!)

--

Edit: your joke was recognized as such. (The LOL was a strong indication for this. ;) )
Anyway, it was sort of a chain link in your argumentation chain and therefore worth a reply.

anandus
Feb 20, 2012, 09:19 AM
In any case there will still have to be some differences in apparent religions. They cannot be just different by name. I wonder how these will be portrayed. Shrines, buildings, omens?Well, they'll have different symbols, and maybe the pictures for the temples will look different?
There will have to be something. Maybe relation wise. Christians and Moslems get a diplomatic hit when trying to be friends. Things like that.As being both Abrahamic faiths you'd actually expect a diplo-bonus ;)

nokmirt
Feb 20, 2012, 09:24 AM
Sorry if I didn't understand you right or if I wasn't abel to make my point as clear as I wanted. Obviously enough, I'm no nativ speaker.

First of all, I don't think I did write anything about *me* being prejudiced. (Where does *this* come from?)
What I *tried* to say is, that any premade bonus only can be based on prejudice, as a simple "+ 1 happieness" (or whatever) can *never* reflect the deepness of a religious beliefe.

All of this is an academic discusion anyway, as the designers decided to take another approach.

But just for the sake of discussion: *What* sort of game bonus do you think appropriate for real existing religions without being superficial at all?

Please, don't take this as a personal offense, as this it is not intended at all! I just wonder, which choices could the *game designers* do, without annoying anybody?
Hey, people are annoyed here, only because the leaders don't speak the correct language! What do you think will happen with "premade religious bonnuses"?

No its my fault I should have explained my points better. I take no offense whatsoever and hope I gave none. I think the diversity should probably end at buildings. A mosque for Islam, and a church for christians for example. But the rest should be up to the player and the AI civs to decide. AI civs will play a role in creating religions within the game as well.

As far as premade religious bonuses. I feel they will help your civ grow and prosper. If your going for a culture victory, you'll try to engineer your religion to help in that goal. Choosing "believes" that enhance culture (If I understand how this works correctly, which I do not I am in the dark, but truly find it interesting.). Or at least that would surely be one strategy.

I also think it would be interesting if somehow there was a chance a neighboring religion could influence your own and vice versa. Some aspect of theirs kind of molds with yours over time. Or the complete opposite, where the religions deter each other and cause diplomatic problems. Relations and diplomatic history certainly could have an active role in how religions develop, and how they are viewed abroad.

Well, they'll have different symbols, and maybe the pictures for the temples will look different?
As being both Abrahamic faiths you'd actually expect a diplo-bonus ;)

Your right of course that could be the case. This will surely be an addictive game, because no game played will be the same as the one before it.

Louis XXIV
Feb 20, 2012, 09:30 AM
No its my fault I should have explained my points better. I take no offense whatsoever and hope I gave none. I think the diversity should probably end at buildings. A mosque for Islam, and a church for christians for example. But the rest should be up to the player and the AI civs to decide. AI civs will play a role in creating religions within the game as well.

Well, that's also just flavor, right? I assume a Mosque and a Church would have the same benefits? In that case, I wholeheartedly endorse the idea. The only question for Christianity is do you want a Church, Cathedral, or Basilica.

There are a few religions that might be more difficult. I'm not sure what the building for Tengriism is, for example.

Deggial
Feb 20, 2012, 09:58 AM
I think the diversity should probably end at buildings. A mosque for Islam, and a church for christians for example. But the rest should be up to the player and the AI civs to decide. AI civs will play a role in creating religions within the game as well.

As far as premade religious bonuses. I feel they will help your civ grow and prosper. If your going for a culture victory, you'll try to engineer your religion to help in that goal. Choosing "believes" that enhance culture (If I understand how this works correctly, which I do not I am in the dark, but truly find it interesting.). Or at least that would surely be one strategy.

Well, obviously we *do* mean the same thing! Maybe it was just a different understanding of what a "premade bonus" will be?
*My* understanding: Christianity *always* gets +1 happiens, Islam *always* 10% fighting bonus and Judaism *always* +1 gold/turn (or something alike). You see why I think, something like this can only be based on prejudice?

I really think, this would be incredible awful and I'm happy about the way more flexible approach of "Gods & Kings" - just as you, obviously. Tailoring your religion to your needs is so much more fun - and less biased.

Cheers,
Deggial

ShahJahanII
Feb 20, 2012, 10:19 AM
Well, obviously we *do* mean the same thing! Maybe it was just a different understanding of what a "premade bonus" will be?
*My* understanding: Christianity *always* gets +1 happiens, Islam *always* 10% fighting bonus and Judaism *always* +1 gold/turn (or something alike). You see why I think, something like this can only be based on prejudice?

I really think, this would be incredible awful and I'm happy about the way more flexible approach of "Gods & Kings" - just as you, obviously. Tailoring your religion to your needs is so much more fun - and less biased.

Cheers,
Deggial

I was confused with the 2 of you for a while too :)
But I agree with both of you.
The names of the religions don't matter. I will probably always pick Tengriism (cool logo) and name it Pastafarianism (for fun).

nokmirt
Feb 20, 2012, 10:25 AM
Well, that's also just flavor, right? I assume a Mosque and a Church would have the same benefits? In that case, I wholeheartedly endorse the idea. The only question for Christianity is do you want a Church, Cathedral, or Basilica.

There are a few religions that might be more difficult. I'm not sure what the building for Tengriism is, for example.

I am not sure what Tengrism building is either. Perhaps the Tenri shrine or something. All of these buildings should look different yes, but give the same benefit. So yes the buildings are just for flavor. That would be the best way, this way people can identify the building with the religion.

An interesting idea would be for these buildings to upgrade over time. Eventually going from humble religious buildings up to a cathedral or great mosque. Or as tech is researched certain religious upgrade buildings become available. The player can choose to build them or not. But at each level the distinct buildings for each religion are equal to each other.

Well, obviously we *do* mean the same thing! Maybe it was just a different understanding of what a "premade bonus" will be?
*My* understanding: Christianity *always* gets +1 happiens, Islam *always* 10% fighting bonus and Judaism *always* +1 gold/turn (or something alike). You see why I think, something like this can only be based on prejudice?

I really think, this would be incredible awful and I'm happy about the way more flexible approach of "Gods & Kings" - just as you, obviously. Tailoring your religion to your needs is so much more fun - and less biased.

Cheers,
Deggial

Indeed the base religions should start out equal. The player then decides what bonuses to choose. Perhaps through exploring villages some religious bonuses could be found, so there is some randomness as well. The point is too keep everyone happy and in that I whole heartedly agree with you. And cheers to you as well.

I was confused with the 2 of you for a while too :)
But I agree with both of you.
The names of the religions don't matter. I will probably always pick Tengriism (cool logo) and name it Pastafarianism (for fun).

Great idea! LOL!

AriochIV
Feb 20, 2012, 11:42 AM
The whole reason all Religions were identical in Civ IV is that Firaxis was terrified of giving them specific attributes, because they were afraid of angering people... religion is a touchy subject. The new G&K system solves that problem beautifully, by letting the player pick his own attributes. It allows for religions to be customized without risking anger over "My Religion is underpowered, you Infidel Firaxis slime! Why do you hate my religion??!?!"

steave435
Feb 21, 2012, 02:02 AM
But just for the sake of being concrete: *What* sort of game bonus do you think as appropriate for real existing religions without being inexcusable superficial at all?

Please, don't take this as a personal offense, as this is *not* intended at all! I just wonder, which choices could the *game designers* do, without annoying anybody?
Hey, people are annoyed here, only because the leaders don't speak the correct language! What do you think will happen with "premade religious bonuses"? (As you said yourself: Somebody *will* go mad!)

No bonuses for the religion, but they could tie different beliefs to different religions (for example, something referring to heaven won't be available to the Hindu or Buddhist, while nothing referring to nirvana or reincarnation will be available to Christians or Muslims) and those beliefs have different bonuses.

Aussie_Lurker
Feb 22, 2012, 04:21 AM
My only problem with the religion systems is that the beliefs of that religion are *fixed*-something we've *never* seen historically. I hope that-at the least-the Piety Policy "Reformation" might allow you to change *some* of your beliefs.

The other thing that worries me is Piety itself-because you can have Free Religion *and* Theocracy at the same time, it just doesn't make any sense. I wonder how they plan to deal with issues like this!

Aussie.

mitsho
Feb 22, 2012, 04:45 AM
Well, that's a design choice they made for Civ V and it's only fair that they stick with it. Talent/Skill Trees are something that can be found in many contemporary games and the thinking behind is that it's better gameplay to let the player build something over the course of the game instead of changing it when you want it. The one exception I see is Diablo 3 going the exact opposite route, so maybe that will change again for Civ 6 ;-)

But let's try it first, right. I get your criticism, but I guess that's a point where gameplay trumps realism, and one shot bonus seem to be more fun than long-term ones. And short term bonus are a problem for switching... Also you can argue that Religious Dogmas actually build upon each other, even when reevaluating and changing themselves...

I can see Reformation as having a one off bonus of allowing you to change once as that might be fun and completely in tone with the name of the policy. But that's a balance issue and this social policy might be highly specialized and maybe every policy should have some general worth...

I do think Piety will be completely overhauled. Reformation does make sense as a policy, but f.e. Mandate of Heaven doesn't work as a name anymore. Theocracy is debateable. There needs to be a culture tree and they imho need some space for espionage-related policies. It's too early to tell anything on that I guess.

Louis XXIV
Feb 22, 2012, 06:45 AM
My only problem with the religion systems is that the beliefs of that religion are *fixed*-something we've *never* seen historically. I hope that-at the least-the Piety Policy "Reformation" might allow you to change *some* of your beliefs.

Actually, it's not fixed. It expands (you add more abilities by accumulating faith points).

I don't know how the Piety tree will fit in. The names themselves might have an awkward at best fit since both are independent representations of the same historical thing. However, if we're talking about place in the tech tree where the reformation took place, you'll see religion declining in importance for your game.

AriochIV
Feb 22, 2012, 11:00 AM
When they say that the importance of Religion will decline in later eras, I think they're talking about the impact it will have on Diplomatic modifiers. The actual bonuses provided by Beliefs seem just as strong in the late game as they are in the early game.

And yeah, I would expect the Piety tree to be substantially reworked.

KrikkitTwo
Feb 24, 2012, 05:00 PM
My only problem with the religion systems is that the beliefs of that religion are *fixed*-something we've *never* seen historically. I hope that-at the least-the Piety Policy "Reformation" might allow you to change *some* of your beliefs.

The other thing that worries me is Piety itself-because you can have Free Religion *and* Theocracy at the same time, it just doesn't make any sense. I wonder how they plan to deal with issues like this!

Aussie.

Your society has Theocratic Traits, and Free religious traits. (Just like you can have an Aristocratic Oligarchy and Universal Suffrage Democracy all at the same time)

As for religious beliefs (or rather benefits) being fixed... the fact that they get added on should help that (ie You found Christianity with one prophet and then later enhance it with the Martin Luther Prophet).

Its possible the "enhancement" benefit may be specific to each civ... ie a non founding civ can choose to enhance a specific religion that it follows.

MadDjinn
Feb 24, 2012, 05:44 PM
Randomly picking quotes from the last few pages (for no other reason that to do that):

Yes, but what exactly differs Christianity from Islam? Spoken in game terms, of course (say: bonuses). Who will decide, how to implement each religion? Don't you see the minefield, here?


2ndary issue is "at what point in history?" Both of those religions have had 'good' times and 'bad' times.

Oh, and that's another one: Catholics or the various Protestants? That's likely far more of a minefield.

I seriously doubt Firaxis would step into that minefield as it would make the game 'political' rather than just a game.


The names of the religions don't matter. I will probably always pick Tengriism (cool logo) and name it Pastafarianism (for fun).

Definitely. May even make it into the first LP once I figure out the system.

When they say that the importance of Religion will decline in later eras, I think they're talking about the impact it will have on Diplomatic modifiers. The actual bonuses provided by Beliefs seem just as strong in the late game as they are in the early game.

And yeah, I would expect the Piety tree to be substantially reworked.

I agree.

Buccaneer
Feb 24, 2012, 06:10 PM
MadDjinn, do you think we need the extra happiness and gold bonuses that any of the generic religions (plus modifiers) give you? Do you see any penalties or trade-offs of opportunity costs by choosing such? What do you think all this extra gold and happiness would do in the course of a normal civ game at the higher difficulties?

MadDjinn
Feb 24, 2012, 06:27 PM
MadDjinn, do you think we need the extra happiness and gold bonuses that any of the generic religions (plus modifiers) give you? Do you see any penalties or trade-offs of opportunity costs by choosing such? What do you think all this extra gold and happiness would do in the course of a normal civ game at the higher difficulties?

Don't know yet, would have to see their changes first.

There could be yet to be announced 'negative' effects of having a religion.

Or maybe they rebalanced the entire system to incorporate these changes, so that you might need religion to do more. (ok, haha, kinda unlikely given previous patch changes)

But, for hypothesis sake, if nothing in vanilla related to the 'gold economy' or 'happiness' changes and all of this is 'piled' onto it, then it would make the game more of a 'casual/arcade' game and not a strategy game. But I'm sure some people would disagree with that statement. :rolleyes:

Buccaneer
Feb 24, 2012, 08:03 PM
Don't know yet, would have to see their changes first.

There could be yet to be announced 'negative' effects of having a religion.

Or maybe they rebalanced the entire system to incorporate these changes, so that you might need religion to do more. (ok, haha, kinda unlikely given previous patch changes)

But, for hypothesis sake, if nothing in vanilla related to the 'gold economy' or 'happiness' changes and all of this is 'piled' onto it, then it would make the game more of a 'casual/arcade' game and not a strategy game. But I'm sure some people would disagree with that statement. :rolleyes:

But...but...think about the roleplayers. Yeah, that's it.

Seriously, I really hope they add consequences of actions (choices).

ShahJahanII
Feb 25, 2012, 05:43 AM
Definitely. May even make it into the first LP once I figure out the system.


An LP with the expansion!
Any particular civ you are planning on doing, or do you need more information?
Glad I gave you a new idea.

MadDjinn
Feb 25, 2012, 07:17 AM
An LP with the expansion!
Any particular civ you are planning on doing, or do you need more information?
Glad I gave you a new idea.

Likely the first one will be religion focused, since that seems to be the new system. Or at least, find some way to tie religion into it.

Swedish Berserk
Feb 25, 2012, 07:27 AM
About the diplomacy system. In CIV IV diplomacy was great with the +/- system is that diplomacy system making a comeback in this expansion?

D712
Feb 25, 2012, 08:34 AM
http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/121/1218810p1.html

Mentions that the bizarre tank seen in the Combustion tech is referred to as a 'land ship'

Religions can be built on terrain, so nearby mountains can be benefited through religion

Religious policy 'Tithing' means all cities of the faith, regardless of civilization, generate gold for you.

Founder belief 'Just War' gives a 20% boost to military units

Civilizations with conflicting policies (I.e. Freedom & Autocracy) will have diplo hit

Spies can steal technologies

Spies can rig elections, which appears to boost your favour in city-states while penalising others

Spies can initiate coups.

Melee naval units, these can capture cities

These are what I've been looking for.

I wonder what is meant by "land ship".

Thank god for the religion benefiting land, because mountains seem to be for pure decoration as of now. The EP should make them actually useful.

SPIES! Back in Civ 4, I never used spies. They didn't seem beneficial. But with City States and their tricky diplomacy, this gives me much more incentive to spy on my neighbors and risk war.

And my favorite is the melee ships. For so long I'd have huge gunships bombarding a city that's at zero and have to wait until I could get a land unit to the falling city. This will make things much easier (hopefully).