View Full Version : New unique abilities discussion


bonafide11
Feb 16, 2012, 04:21 PM
So far we know the Byzantines have a unique ability of a 6th religious bonus. Anyone else have any guesses of what the other unique abilities (or units/buildings) may be?

I'd bet some civs will get a bonus toward mercantile city-states and religious city-states. I also could see some civ get extra influence from performing quests for city-states.

One of the articles also mentioned that some of the existing civs will have their abilities tweaked to match the expansion pack. Any ideas what these will be?

I'd guess Russia will get an espionage bonus and Spain gets a religious bonus (maybe the return of crazy religious Isabella?).

If they introduce the Zulu, I think they would be a perfect fit to have Germany's current unique ability, and Germany may get Russia's current UA. I'd like to see the Zulu, but I hope both black African civs (not counting Carthage and Egypt) are crazy warmongers. But so be it if they need to. They definitely need to add another African civ and the Zulu would be the best bet in my opinion.

This is just all speculation on my part though. What do you all think?

The_J
Feb 16, 2012, 04:28 PM
One of the articles also mentioned that some of the existing civs will have their abilities tweaked to match the expansion pack. Any ideas what these will be?


Songhai probably, because one of the articles said that all embarked units can now defend.

mitsho
Feb 16, 2012, 05:06 PM
Difficult to say when we do not know the details yet.

I would not be too sure about the Zulu's inclusion. They certainly deserve it and are a stable of civilization. But maybe they want to have something in the back for future DLC. More People will buy the popular DLCs than a new one like - let's say - Congo. Or they have modern nations as DLC: Australia, Brazil, Sweden?

Additionally, the Zulu also do not really fit into one of the new features (Religion, Espionage) nor one of the scenarios.

I'd like to see the return of Ethiopia or a new one like Congo as African Civs btw. Though the Zulu certainly do work as well ;)


PS: Also, anyone sad that they chose to ramp up Espionage, but don't say anything about the rather poor Diplomatic Victory and the useless UN (in the game)

Seek
Feb 16, 2012, 05:36 PM
PS: Also, anyone sad that they chose to ramp up Espionage, but don't say anything about the rather poor Diplomatic Victory and the useless UN (in the game)

I have some hope - from 2KGreg's post:

New City-States. With religion being added to the game, it only made sense to introduce Religious city-states which will interact with your religion in special ways. In addition, Mercantile city-states will be attractive for those of you who love to grow your civilization's treasury. All city-states will use the greatly expanded quest system, making city-states more dynamic and diplomatic victories more challenging, while decreasing the importance of gold when dealing with city-states.

It also sounds like Espionage will affect City States to some degree as well. The AI should be made more willing to spend it's gold as well.

apocalypse105
Feb 16, 2012, 05:37 PM
The netherlands will proparly get a economic bonus and a unique ship

Louis XXIV
Feb 16, 2012, 06:23 PM
Greg's quote makes me wonder if Jerusalem will be a religious city-state. I'll save this thought for the Religions thread.

I don't see any other having a Religion bonus. Keeping it with Byzantium makes sense. I'm glad they have one, though. When I thought of suggestions for them, it was like pulling teeth to think of something appropriately religious related without a religion function.

For old Civs. Songhai is the best candidate for a revision. If anyone else were to have a religious bonus it would be Spain. An argument could be made to give one to the Aztecs. If any Civ (past, present, or future) were to have an espionage bonus, it would be Russia (I'm at a loss to find a better fit, although I think it's overblown.

For new Civs. I could see a religious bonus for the Celts, but I'm highly doubtful. I've suggested some kind of Uprising type ability where units are quicker to produce during war. But that's admittedly vague.

For the Dutch, I've repeated my suggestions many times. First, I suggest no UU only a UA, UB, and UI. Second, the UA would involve automatic trade routes on coastal tiles (free automatic harbor) and a higher gold bonus for finding new city-states.

For the Maya, I have no clue. They said something Calendar-related, but that could mean anything. My guess is a science/culture boost.

CivOasis
Feb 16, 2012, 06:30 PM
Would America be a good candidate for a new UA? At the very least, they have one of the worst in the game, would be nice for a boost...

Camikaze
Feb 16, 2012, 06:33 PM
Maybe the Mayan Calendar moves Time Victory forward to 2012.

steveg700
Feb 16, 2012, 06:38 PM
Some of the features that used to fall under the halo of "culture" will now belong to religion. The Aztercs, for instance, will likely gain faith for kils instead of culture.

Siam's ability may be extended to account for the benefits of mercantile and/or religious CS's.

Louis XXIV
Feb 16, 2012, 07:13 PM
Would America be a good candidate for a new UA? At the very least, they have one of the worst in the game, would be nice for a boost...

While there are a couple bad ones (America, Arabs) and one that has been horribly undercut by DLC (England), I think this thread might be better suited to discussing whether any Civ would have a change in light of game changes, not just overall balancing. I can't see anything this expansion touches on that is suited to America with the possible exception of espionage (and no offense to the CIA, but I don't think American human espionage has had a great success record. Technological surveillance has been our strength).

ETA: I like faith for kills for the Aztecs. I wonder if that weakens them too much, though. Although it will distinguish them from the Honor tree again.

I saw in another thread that the Celts get faith for being near trees. I wonder if there's a split between the basic polytheism that the Celts have strengths with and the State-organized religion that the Byzantines excel at.

CivOasis
Feb 16, 2012, 07:21 PM
Well, I suppose the Arabs would fit a religious bonus, but their UA didn't seem very bad to me.
More realistically, what are we thinking the Mayan UA is? I hear something about culture, science, and calendars, but is that confirmed?

bonafide11
Feb 16, 2012, 07:53 PM
Maybe the Mayan Calendar moves Time Victory forward to 2012.

This made me chuckle. :lol:

As someone else said, the Arabs would be a good candidate for a UA change, and their current one could be used by someone else.

As far as the African civ, maybe Ethiopia will make it in again instead of the Zulu. I assume they'll add another African civ though just for regional and geographic diversity.

Aztecs switching culture points to faith points would be logical, but that would seem to weaken them quite a bit, though it's hard to say without knowing more about faith points.

steveg700
Feb 16, 2012, 09:33 PM
I thought America's UA was pretty weak. Then I played it. Eyes opened. +1 sight is great for early exploration, and later in the game allows you to see enemy units while you are still hidden in the fog of war. And don't get me started on how fun it is to settle a city and snatch a resource tile away form a nearby contender. Three tiles away? No problem.

England, OTOH, is a real waste of a civ. This could have been a great culture civ or even diplo/economic civ. But they don't really do much. Perhaps the emphasis on naval combat in the expansion will help them out.

But the civ that's really been undercut by patches and DLC? France. +2 culture per city isn't as big a deal as it used to be (and it never was that big, really).

But again, we shouldn't read too much into them talking about tooling with existing civ's. They just need to fix things like UB's that are temple replacements (obviously, temples will become faith buildings).

Gucumatz
Feb 16, 2012, 09:42 PM
Well I have had a ton of fun playing England in multiplayer where humans can handle naval combat, but I agree for the AI, I can't imagine naval AI being vastly improved and for singleplayer it needs to be buffed.

Along with the Ottoman's unique.

Scaramanga
Feb 16, 2012, 10:20 PM
Change the current Arab UA to be the dutch one. Arabs get faith points for every desert tile.

MadDjinn
Feb 16, 2012, 11:06 PM
Well I have had a ton of fun playing England in multiplayer where humans can handle naval combat, but I agree for the AI, I can't imagine naval AI being vastly improved and for singleplayer it needs to be buffed.

Along with the Ottoman's unique.

The biggest issue with naval combat was the .4 modifier.

If they've actually spent time fixing naval combat, hopefully they've dropped that part. It'll help the AI big time.

Mad2rix
Feb 17, 2012, 06:33 AM
Siam's ability may be extended to account for the benefits of mercantile and/or religious CS's.

Just as I guessed thoroughly.

Montov
Feb 17, 2012, 06:47 AM
The biggest issue with naval combat was the .4 modifier.

If they've actually spent time fixing naval combat, hopefully they've dropped that part. It'll help the AI big time.

What do you mean with the 0.4 modifier?

GoodSarmatian
Feb 17, 2012, 07:14 AM
ETA: I like faith for kills for the Aztecs. I wonder if that weakens them too much, though. Although it will distinguish them from the Honor tree again.

They Aztecs will be fine. Imho they're already the strongest civ with a combination of a very good UB and a good UA that has great synergy with their ability.
Aztec + Honor with Raging Barbarians will let you finish a policiy tree around turn 100 on Epic speed. If there's one civ that could do with a nerf it's the Aztecs, but since people don't like nerfs it's more likely Firaxis will buff existing civs. The Ottomans and the Arabs are both good candidates for a new religon based ability. Maybe religions founded by Arabs will spread much faster than normal.


I saw in another thread that the Celts get faith for being near trees. I wonder if there's a split between the basic polytheism that the Celts have strengths with and the State-organized religion that the Byzantines excel at.

Is this confirmed or speculation ? Faith from trees sounds mroe like an early pantheon belief than a Civ Ability.

anandus
Feb 17, 2012, 07:17 AM
Is this confirmed or speculation ? Faith from trees sounds mroe like an early pantheon belief than a Civ Ability.Confirmed:
Celts have the ability to gain additional faith when their cities are settled against a foresthttp://www.gamespot.com/sid-meiers-civilization-v-gods-and-kings/previews/gods-and-kings-brings-big-changes-to-civilization-v-6350514/

Louis XXIV
Feb 17, 2012, 08:10 AM
There's always a risk of misunderstanding, but it's certainly worth leaning towards "true" at this point.

MadDjinn
Feb 17, 2012, 08:30 AM
What do you mean with the 0.4 modifier?

On defense, a naval unit had it's combat strength reduced by a hidden modifier, after promotions were added. So all Naval units were fragile and would die very easily.

bcaiko
Feb 17, 2012, 03:41 PM
With the naval rebalance, England's UA could actually mean something. If ships can take coastal cities, I'd be wary of England's fast navy.

Still hope they get some kind of economic bonus, though.

apocalypse105
Feb 17, 2012, 05:07 PM
With the naval rebalance, England's UA could actually mean something. If ships can take coastal cities, I'd be wary of England's fast navy.

Still hope they get some kind of economic bonus, though.

yeah they should change the unique ship to a unique building that increase production because england played a importont role in the Industrial Revolution

ShahJahanII
Feb 17, 2012, 07:27 PM
They Aztecs will be fine. Imho they're already the strongest civ with a combination of a very good UB and a good UA that has great synergy with their ability.
Aztec + Honor with Raging Barbarians will let you finish a policiy tree around turn 100 on Epic speed. If there's one civ that could do with a nerf it's the Aztecs, but since people don't like nerfs it's more likely Firaxis will buff existing civs. The Ottomans and the Arabs are both good candidates for a new religon based ability. Maybe religions founded by Arabs will spread much faster than normal.


How about spreading through trade routes?
It''s politically correct, and could be potentially fun.

joncnunn
Feb 18, 2012, 12:11 AM
On defense, a naval unit had it's combat strength reduced by a hidden modifier, after promotions were added. So all Naval units were fragile and would die very easily.

I find their fragileness has a bit more to do with the inability to heal at all in netural lands (without a promotion)

GoodSarmatian
Feb 18, 2012, 05:17 AM
How about spreading through trade routes?
It''s politically correct, and could be potentially fun.

That depends on whether we'll get foreign trade routes back, and it could give people an incentive for trade embargoes against Arabia.

ShahJahanII
Feb 18, 2012, 06:16 AM
That depends on whether we'll get foreign trade routes back, and it could give people an incentive for trade embargoes against Arabia.

Actually, we could do this even within your own empire. Depends on how religion spreads. We don't know the specifics yet.

drubell
Feb 18, 2012, 08:09 AM
With the Ottomans' UA being universally considered underwhelming and the naval combat focus of the expansion, I'd be incredibly surprised if the Ottomans don't get an overhaul in their UA.

Since I think Songhai and Ottomans are good candidates to change, I wonder if Germany might get another reworking. I think that barbarian-focused UAs, while interesting, provide too little bonus (since barbarians are typically not present for the majority of a game). Barb UAs might get trashed in favor of faith-based UAs.

Lord Olleus
Feb 18, 2012, 08:16 AM
If navies are boosted, then the Ottoman's UA automatically becomes much better. Free units that let you capture cities? Doesn't sound too bad to me.

GoodSarmatian
Feb 18, 2012, 09:18 AM
With the Ottomans' UA being universally considered underwhelming and the naval combat focus of the expansion, I'd be incredibly surprised if the Ottomans don't get an overhaul in their UA.

Since I think Songhai and Ottomans are good candidates to change, I wonder if Germany might get another reworking. I think that barbarian-focused UAs, while interesting, provide too little bonus (since barbarians are typically not present for the majority of a game). Barb UAs might get trashed in favor of faith-based UAs.

Hard to say. Warlords introduced three new traits and changed many leaders, but CiV has UAs instead of traits. I don't think they'll change UAs for civs that aren't directly affected by new game mechanics -like Songhai and possibly the Otttomans- or strongly associated with them (Arabia -Religion).
That's not to say I'm against changes. I really don't like how Germany is a purely militaristic civ with a warmonger ability and two UUs.

vonbach
Feb 18, 2012, 09:34 AM
I really don't like how Germany is a purely militaristic civ with a warmonger ability and two UUs.

This is one thing I hope they'll change.

ShahJahanII
Feb 18, 2012, 05:10 PM
I wonder how they will do the Dutch.
I would really like a commerce/naval civ, but a Dutch article mentioned something about converting marshlands to "profitable fields". This may be a polder UB/UI or something of the sort.

GoodSarmatian
Feb 19, 2012, 05:18 AM
I wonder how many naval abilities they can add. We already have Polynesia and Denmark with probably good abilities (I'm not certain, don't have DLC) and England and the Ottomans with poor ones (hopefully the Ottomans will be changed). I'd rather have something commercial or cultural for the Dutch which signifies that they were always a really small country with many colonies nonetheless.
'convert marshlands to profitable fields', what does that even mean ? They can immediately do something that others can after they research masonry ? Sounds pretty poor.
Maybe that's not their ability and instead of a UB they have a unique improvement that can only be built on marshland ?
I think a fitting -though not very creative- ability for the Dutch would be a city state bouns like Siam's for Mercantile CS, if you think of city states as colonies.
Give Siam better yields from cultural and militaristic CS and give the Dutch better yields from Maritime and Mercantile ones.

anandus
Feb 19, 2012, 05:27 AM
I wonder how many naval abilities they can add. We already have Polynesia and Denmark with probably good abilities (I'm not certain, don't have DLC) and England and the Ottomans with poor ones (hopefully the Ottomans will be changed). I'd rather have something commercial or cultural for the Dutch which signifies that they were always a really small country with many colonies nonetheless.One ability I can think of, which could be a Dutch, a Cathaginian (or future Portuguese) UA is something like "overseas trade routes generate more money".
It would fit very nicely for those civs
'convert marshlands to profitable fields', what does that even mean ? They can immediately do something that others can after they research masonry ? Sounds pretty poor.
Maybe that's not their ability and instead of a UB they have a unique improvement that can only be built on marshland ?I think so, it'll be a tile improvement, a bit like Inca's Terrace Farm. When built on a marsh, you'll build some sort of super farm tile (maybe one added food, like a tile next to fresh water and Civil Service? Maybe one adde gold too?)
I think a fitting -though not very creative- ability for the Dutch would be a city state bouns like Siam's for Mercantile CS, if you think of city states as colonies.
Give Siam better yields from cultural and militaristic CS and give the Dutch better yields from Maritime and Mercantile ones.Interesting, not perse for the Dutch as such, but an interesting thought to diverse Siam's UA.
Personally I'm afraid Siam's UA will just be expanded to the other CS-types, but it'd be nice if there was a split, two civs with a somewhat similar UA, but for different CS'es.

Optional
Feb 19, 2012, 06:49 AM
I wonder how many naval abilities they can add. We already have Polynesia and Denmark with probably good abilities (I'm not certain, don't have DLC) and England and the Ottomans with poor ones (hopefully the Ottomans will be changed).Both Polynesia and Denmark have abilities that apply to land units only, but having to do with embarkation. Ottomans' ability should get better even without changing it. More ships would mean more abilities to convert and hopefully more upgrade opportunities for their free fleet. Also the Admiral will help Ottomans' fleet.
At the moment there's a gap of several ages between the trireme and the frigate, an awfully long gap, and filling that gap will help both Ottomans and England automatically.I think so, it'll be a tile improvement [the ability to transform marshes into profitable fields, ed]Why are you thinking the Dutch will get a tile improvement, Anandus, when the Dutch article specificilly mentioned buildings? It could be a kind of mill, that when built, automatically boosts output of every worked marsh tile, similar to what the Iroquois' longhouse does to forests. The Dutch are famous for their windmills, it would be only logical for the game to draw from that.
Perhaps interesting to mention also is this suggestion that got put forward in the ideas and suggestions thread in July:I'm thinking of the real life windmills that were used for water management, making the land better arable.
In the game a mill like this could be placed in a town to deal with the marshes. You would build a mill in a town that had marshes in its radius, and the effect would be that gradually the marsh tiles got transformed to ordinary grass tiles. Right now a worker with a spade does this, but it's more realistic to have a mill do this.We have to assume developers are reading these threads and sometimes will pick up something from it, maybe that has been the case here, who knows...

anandus
Feb 19, 2012, 09:24 AM
Why are you thinking the Dutch will get a tile improvement, Anandus, when the Dutch article specificilly mentioned buildings? It could be a kind of mill, that when built, automatically boosts output of every worked marsh tile, similar to what the Iroquois' longhouse does to forests. The Dutch are famous for their windmills, it would be only logical for the game to draw from that.Maybe we've read a different article?

In the Dutch article (http://www.gamer.nl/preview/247129/civilization-v-gods-kings) I read it says
Beter nog, de Nederlanders zullen een paar interessante eenheden en gebouwen hebben[...]. Daarnaast kunnen ze moeraslanden ombouwen tot winstgevende veldenWhich basically says "The Dutch have some interesting units and buildings [...]. And next to that they can turn marshes into fertile fields", which clearly implies terraforming.
Therefore I think a tile improvement on marshes.

Of course it could be both, a ship, a unique windmill ánd a tile improvement.

CYZ
Feb 19, 2012, 12:42 PM
You mean three Unique aspects? But every civ only has 2...

I doubt they will give the Dutch three when every other civ has two. The ship has been specified, so we know that for sure. And if that article is correct there will be a UB too. But wheter this UB will affect marshes or if this will be part of the UA is unsure.

I could very well imagine a poldermolen or something that gives a very nice bonus to marshes (not just turning them into grassland, which would be weak). But it could also be the UA ''recieve extra gold or food or whatever from marshes after economics''.

anandus
Feb 19, 2012, 01:19 PM
You mean three Unique aspects? But every civ only has 2...I was actually thinking as one of the three being the UA (the one that the Ottomans have now).

And the article in Dutch mentions interesting units and buildings, which I highly doubt.

Optional
Feb 19, 2012, 02:52 PM
Which basically says "The Dutch have some interesting units and buildings [...]. And next to that they can turn marshes into fertile fields", which clearly implies terraforming."Next to that" comes after the section about the ship, which you snipped out. Yeah, it could refer all the way back to the "interesting units and buildings", but it could just refer back to the just aforementioned ship. We don't know, Mr Pants is no lawyer (meaning his language is not as accurate and well thought out as that of a lawyer), his language is ambiguous, and also he's just transcribing something that came to him in verbal English. We can't be sure about anything.
Turning marshes into fertile fields by means of terraforming is something every worker of every civilization is capable of, so I think the Dutch will have something different from that, otherwise it wouldn't be unique. Buildings can add yields to tiles' features, so you can't rule out the Dutch getting a windmill that improves output from marshes without actually removing the marshes themselves.
Historically you can't really say one option is better than the other. In real life mills that pump water away have only a temporary effect. What the Dutch in real life are doing is maintaining a system of constant water management. They can reverse whatever they are doing, swamps can always be turned back into swamps, and it's interesting to note what they did during the 80-year war against the Spanish; often they deliberately flooded the lands outside their cities to thwart the Spanish. If you read the diaries of Spanish soldiers in the Netherlands in that time you'll come across many complaints about the heat. You wouldn't expect this from soldiers from a country warmer than the Netherlands, but the Spanish weren't used to the humid conditions, and of course the armour they had to wear didn't help either.
It would be nice if in Civ the Dutch could profit from the swamps due to their mills, while besieging enemies would still have the penalty from being in swamps. Although I know Civ doesn't pretend to be as historically accuate like this, it would be nice to think they sometimes nailed it on the head, even if only by chance.

GoodSarmatian
Feb 19, 2012, 03:07 PM
I really don't think they Dutch will have a windmill UB that enhances marshes because such a building would frankly suck. I mean, who doesn't clear the marshes around his cities before he has researched Economics ?
It's much more likely that they either have a unique tile improvements that can be built on marshes or they can improve marsh tiles without clearing them and get bonus yields.

ezbutton
Feb 19, 2012, 03:14 PM
For the Dutch, they'll probably bring back the levee UB which I think will replace the Watermill. I think it'd probably work in the same function as Aztec's UB but production or gold oriented.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned which UA would get the greatest buff from the embarking defense and that is Denmark and with the addition of naval units able to attack from sea they would be deadly in terms of coastal attacks.

Optional
Feb 19, 2012, 06:09 PM
I really don't think they Dutch will have a windmill UB that enhances marshes because such a building would frankly suck. I mean, who doesn't clear the marshes around his cities before he has researched Economics ?The windmill in the game just now, coming with economics, boosts the production of buildings. I've always considered 'sawmill' a much better term for that thing. I don't see any relationship with clearing marshes. For the Dutch I was rather thinking of a replacement for the granary or the watermill.
It might indeed be like the floating gardens, which increases food from lakes. That 'sucks' as well, until you know that it also adds 15% of the total food production. We don't know whether a Dutch unique building won't also have an additional benefit like that.

A term like 'improvement' is nowhere mentioned, only 'buildings' is. But whether the term 'buildings' is directly connected with the marshes isn't clear, so yes, you may speculate about what is really meant.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned which UA would get the greatest buff from the embarking defense and that is Denmark and with the addition of naval units able to attack from sea they would be deadly in terms of coastal attacks.Polynesia would benefit greatly as well. They take to the water even sooner and with a wider range.

GoodSarmatian
Feb 19, 2012, 06:31 PM
Floating Gardens are arguaböy the best UB in the game, I don't see why anone would think it sucks.
A watermill replacement that improves marshes would make sense. It comes reasonably early to make use of marshland.
'Building', well...
Our source is a google-translated article from a Dutch magazine which probably first translated an English interview into Dutch. I always assume the possibility of mistakes or inaccuracies in a translation.

Optional
Feb 19, 2012, 06:48 PM
Our source is a google-translated article from a Dutch magazine which probably first translated an English interview into Dutch. I always assume the possibility of mistakes or inaccuracies in a translation.Spot on. I think the journalist has had maybe 15 minutes or so on the phone with Dennis Shirk. The German "Computer Bild Spiele" specifically mentioned it has had Dennis shirk on the phone. But that's exactly why a value the words higher than the context, I think it's easier to mix up the exact context than to replace words.
No Google for me, though, I've only bothered reading the original texts.