View Full Version : Late Spring 2012 is too soon


snapple232
Feb 16, 2012, 05:06 PM
'Late Spring' by any reasonable definition means late April or sometime in May. That's in barely 3 months. Remember what happened last time when Civ 5 was released just 7 months after it was announced? It turned out to be buggy, imbalanced, and rushed.

Impatient people will be happy that the expansion is coming out so soon, but people who want a title that'll live up to the Civilization franchise should find this worrying.

Pazyryk
Feb 16, 2012, 05:14 PM
I would find it more worrying if they announced it 9 months out, or 1 month out. Either would be bad marketing. Do you really think they started working on it today?

CivOasis
Feb 16, 2012, 05:16 PM
They announced something was "in progress" back in November, just not what it was. We all thought it was a new DLC or patch, at the time.

snapple232
Feb 16, 2012, 05:20 PM
I would find it more worrying if they announced it 9 months out, or 1 month out. Either would be bad marketing. Do you really think they started working on it today?

Obviously I don't think they started working on it today. Given that the last major patch was in August, that means they've likely been fully developing it since the summer. If it comes out in May, that's a ~9-10 months of real development time. Considering how rushed Civ 5 felt when it came out, I can't say I trust that they'd put out a high-quality expansion pack within that time frame. It's not a knock on the developers, I'm just saying I wish (and I'm sure they did too) that they had more time to work on this.

Camikaze
Feb 16, 2012, 06:39 PM
They've probably been working on it for quite a while. I would hope, though, that they'd be willing to delay it a week or two if necessary to ensure a stable release.

Venger
Feb 16, 2012, 07:53 PM
Hell, you know much of this stuff was pre-integrated into the base product way back when - you don't think the game engine was designed for a religion integration down the road? Of course it was.

My hope is this is Civ5 1.0.

flp_ndrox
Feb 16, 2012, 08:01 PM
'Late Spring' by any reasonable definition means late April or sometime in May. That's in barely 3 months.

My guess is early-mid June, right before Q3. That's what a lot of the speculation has been elsewhere.

Helmling
Feb 16, 2012, 08:04 PM
Come on, it's obvious that there hasn't been a DLC or major patch in a while because they've been focused on this. It looks flippin' awesome, too. I'm in complete fanboy mode.

Crap, there goes my summer.

Gucumatz
Feb 16, 2012, 08:09 PM
Yep, final summer before college here, time for some fun!

Gamewizard
Feb 16, 2012, 08:34 PM
It is likely that all of this was on the drawing board since day 1. They had to decide a long time ago (before the game was ever released) how they planned on making a game that would turn the most profit without pissing off the consumer. I believe they purposefully omitted the contents of the expansion from the base game in order to get the game out quicker and on schedule. Now I'm not saying that I believe the expansion contents were complete back in October 2010, but surely the ideas were there in a rough, unplayable form.

This method of releasing a base game and slowly adding on through DLC and expansions allows for large user feedback (some would argue it is paid beta testing, but I think that is just spoiled, elitist talk). The base game sales figures surely proved to the suits of 2k that Civilization deserved more resources thrown its way and that an expansion based on consumer feedback would turn a nice "second wind" profit.

CivOasis
Feb 16, 2012, 08:37 PM
I'm not so sure the religion isn't new - that's probably what most people are thinking, but the indication given out to the modders seems to indicate that the stubs were actually leftovers from CivIV.

Helmling
Feb 16, 2012, 08:40 PM
It is likely that all of this was on the drawing board since day 1. They had to decide a long time ago (before the game was ever released) how they planned on making a game that would turn the most profit without pissing off the consumer. I believe they purposefully omitted the contents of the expansion from the base game in order to get the game out quicker and on schedule. Now I'm not saying that I believe the expansion contents were complete back in October 2010, but surely the ideas were there in a rough, unplayable form.

This method of releasing a base game and slowly adding on through DLC and expansions allows for large user feedback (some would argue it is paid beta testing, but I think that is just spoiled, elitist talk). The base game sales figures surely proved to the suits of 2k that Civilization deserved more resources thrown its way and that an expansion based on consumer feedback would turn a nice "second wind" profit.

I don't think so. I think the lack of religion was part of Schaeffer's vision for the game. He's gone, so CiV:G&K is no longer constrained by that vision.

Pro2A
Feb 16, 2012, 10:02 PM
Lets hope they find a way to bring government back and change polices to laws for that type of government.

MadDjinn
Feb 16, 2012, 11:02 PM
I don't think so. I think the lack of religion was part of Schaeffer's vision for the game. He's gone, so CiV:G&K is no longer constrained by that vision.

That's really poor wild speculation that can't be substantiated.

I'm not so sure the religion isn't new - that's probably what most people are thinking, but the indication given out to the modders seems to indicate that the stubs were actually leftovers from CivIV.

All we knew from the XML was that 'flavours' for religion were left in, but no other code used it (at least the LUA code anyways).

Given the vast quantity of other left over parts in the files, it's not surprising.

Either way, it's 'new' now.

As per the OP - Consider the last 'major' patch was really last July. A DLC and a few minor patches happened, but nothing huge.

vexing
Feb 16, 2012, 11:50 PM
Remember what happened last time when Civ 5 was released just 7 months after it was announced? It turned out to be buggy, imbalanced, and rushed.

the civ 5 release pretty much had to happen in september to get proper christmas market share. at least there isn't that pressure for this expansion.

given that they've ironed out most of the major problems with the base game, i don't see how it's possible the expansion release could be quite as bad... and they'll hopefully continue to push out patches post expansion release, after the entire player base has beta tested for them =p

Helmling
Feb 16, 2012, 11:55 PM
That's really poor wild speculation that can't be substantiated.



Not so much speculation. In his interviews, he always plugged the "one thing in/one thing out" philosophy for the design of the game. From what we're seeing about the expansion, that doesn't seem to have guided the design. We're getting quite a few entirely new elements--or well, new implementations of elements that were abandoned from Civ IV.

Clearly Civ V was designed to appeal to a broad market by tightening the focus and scope of the game design. Maybe the design team for G&K figures that this is for the hard-core base, the people who want more features and all the increased complexity that goes with them.

Okay, so that is speculation, but not so much "wild" and...hey, what's with the "poor" crack anyway?!?

; )

anandus
Feb 17, 2012, 01:24 AM
'Late Spring' by any reasonable definition means late April or sometime in May. I don't know what your definition of spring is, but here in Europe spring ends around the 22nd of june (midsummer's day), so 'late spring' seems to me to be somewhere in june :)

Nevyn
Feb 17, 2012, 06:54 AM
I don't know what your definition of spring is, but here in Europe spring ends around the 22nd of june (midsummer's day), so 'late spring' seems to me to be somewhere in june :)

Where in Europe is that?

A meteorology definition of when spring becomes summer is when the daily mean temperature over a week reaches 10 degrees Celsius. That means spring can turn into summer, can turn into spring and then back into summer.

So in Sweden there are also official dates for summer. In Stockholm summer is the period between May 13 to September 29. In Malmö - May 13 to October 12. In Kiruna - June 18 to August 16 (city founded on tundra).

But I think the whole idea with saying 'late spring' is to not make any commitments to dates. =)

anandus
Feb 17, 2012, 06:56 AM
Where in Europe is that?

A meteorology definition of when spring becomes summer is when the daily mean temperature over a week reaches 10 degrees Celsius. That means spring can turn into summer, can turn into spring and then back into summer.Here in the Netherlands the summer starts on the summer solstice, around the 22nd of june.
That's the astronomical summer, and the most used term of 'summer' when speaking of dates.

Teodosio
Feb 17, 2012, 07:31 AM
'Late Spring' by any reasonable definition means late April or sometime in May. That's in barely 3 months. Remember what happened last time when Civ 5 was released just 7 months after it was announced? It turned out to be buggy, imbalanced, and rushed.

Impatient people will be happy that the expansion is coming out so soon, but people who want a title that'll live up to the Civilization franchise should find this worrying.
Oh my... how do you know in what state the expansion currently is? :crazyeye:

Perhaps it is already complete and beta tests are running, perhaps one year would be needed to properly finish it... in any case the announcement itself isn't proof that the expansion is still at an early stage of development.

Cheers :)

Camikaze
Feb 17, 2012, 08:09 AM
A meteorology definition of when spring becomes summer is when the daily mean temperature over a week reaches 10 degrees Celsius.

:lol:

Here in the Netherlands the summer starts on the summer solstice, around the 22nd of june.
That's the astronomical summer, and the most used term of 'summer' when speaking of dates.

But I think the whole idea with saying 'late spring' is to not make any commitments to dates. =)

Here March 1st is the start of autumn and June 1st is the start of winter. But don't 2K (and American in general) go with the solstice? I seem to recall that from last time around. :dunno:

Fern
Feb 17, 2012, 08:19 AM
Impatient people will be happy that the expansion is coming out so soon, but people who want a title that'll live up to the Civilization franchise should find this worrying.

Considering the fact that this expansion is going to be released after about 1 and a half years after the game's release date, I would say it's a lil' bit too late. But better late than never! ;)

About the quality, well, we only can tell once we get a copy.

MadDjinn
Feb 17, 2012, 08:20 AM
:lol:


Here March 1st is the start of autumn and June 1st is the start of winter. But don't 2K (and American in general) go with the solstice? I seem to recall that from last time around. :dunno:


Yes.

Summer 'starts' officially on the Solstice. Sure it's warm before then, but that's the official time. Which does mean 'late spring' can be June.

forty2j
Feb 17, 2012, 08:31 AM
Most companies would go with the quarter, rather than the season. "Late Q2" would mean almost the same thing, but be much less subject to interpretation.

In the USA, when we say summer.. well, the calendar says solstice through equinox (~June 22 - Sep 22), but colloquially we tend to mean Memorial Day through Labor Day (~May 28 - Sep 4).

duckstab
Feb 17, 2012, 09:01 AM
Most companies would go with the quarter, rather than the season. "Late Q2" would mean almost the same thing, but be much less subject to interpretation.

In the USA, when we say summer.. well, the calendar says solstice through equinox (~June 22 - Sep 22), but colloquially we tend to mean Memorial Day through Labor Day (~May 28 - Sep 4).

As most people around here probably know, I'm in the software business, and release planning generally does adhere to the Q1..Q4 convention. That can mean different things because some companies have their fiscal year start in the middle of the year. But if they're saying "late spring" they've probably just translated whatever term they use for the quarter that ends on June 30. Hence I'd expect a May or June release.

Also, a mostly irrelevant point. The Memorial-thru-Labor convention isn't universal, even in the US. It was pretty common when I was growing up in the northeast, but down here in Texas summer is something like May 1st thru September 30th meteorologically, but probably late May through late August culturally, mapping to the school year.

Sherlock
Feb 17, 2012, 11:41 AM
Will this be a retail box, or dload only?

Would be nice if it included the DLC.

Manifold
Feb 17, 2012, 11:53 AM
here are three new screenshots
http://www.gamestar.de/index.cfm?pid=1674&pk=47855&fk=94438&i=1

1. new civ the celts with a new unit the machine gun
2. Religion screen
3. Espionage screen

EDIT: ups too late:(

bonafide11
Feb 17, 2012, 12:50 PM
The truth is, the game will definitely have some balance issues and bugs when it first comes out. Every game and every expansion pack always does. As excited as everyone was for Beyond the Sword, it was plagued by balance issues and bugs at first as well. It took a few patches to fix it. Considering they likely only have a handful of testers, in a game as complex as Civ V, they won't figure out every little issue on their own. It's when thousands of hardcore users play it a ton and then find one common game exploit and share it with everyone else, who also abuse it then. While people joke that early players are free game testers, it's not completely inaccurate, and it's not Firaxis's fault either that thousands of testers will discover an issue that their testers won't. It's nice that Firaxis listens to the community and releases patches to fix those issues. But regardless of when the game is released, don't expect it to be a completely polished product on its first release.

Morningcalm
Feb 17, 2012, 01:13 PM
Hmmm....only 3 scenarios, when there are 9 new civs. I hope the new scenarios are more substantial in their changes to the game than the ones we've gotten through DLC, or we'll still be looking up to Beyond the Sword as an example of the best official scenarios for a Civ game.

OrsonM
Feb 17, 2012, 01:41 PM
I don't know whats the big deal, everyone knows in the entertainment industry that you announce things like 3 days in advance, tops. To tell people, you know, several months in advance in order to build word of mouth and expectation is just amateurish.

Every single big project in the entertainment industry has been announced in a similar rushed style:

Empire Strikes Back: About a week in advance people knew the new Star Wars sequel was coming. George Lucas however demanded that no information was posted on which theaters would screen the movie, to keep things interesting.

Aliens: James Cameron just told his nephew some stuff about the movie like 22 hours before release. Little Timmy Cameron was able to schedule one banging press junket that day (all his kindergarten classmates made it).

The Matrix reloaded: 15 minutes before premiere the Wachowskys placed a lemonade stand outside the theater with a sign that read "Lemonade and The Matrix Sequel, 5 cents"

Gladiator: About 3 weeks before release just one ad was placed for the movie in "Welsh Shepperds 74", a British snuff magazine. Director Ridley Scott was alarmed to find out the ad took an entire page, for which it was changed to a single line after Sheep Model credits.

Return of the King: Peter Jackson just broke into a screening of The Notebook, tackled the projectionist and replaced the movie. Results were mixed, with most people believing The Notebook to be a sappy drama that turned into an epic action movie somewhere in the middle.

crazyundead
Feb 17, 2012, 02:26 PM
I wished they had extensive beta testings and release quality products much later than announced, maybe 2K gaming should follow Blizzard's example.

Arlborn
Feb 17, 2012, 04:44 PM
As long as they don't mess it up they can take as long as they want by me, just as long as they don't mess it up.

I didn't get into Civ5 much(a busy year also contributed to that though) and this is exactly what I was waiting to finally get into the game like I did get into Civ4(hundreds of hours spent on it, not counting all the time spent on this forum) so I sure hope they don't mess it up. With that said, as others said a June release seems likely and considering that they may be working on this for months already it seems like a fine developing time for an expansion.

dexters
Feb 17, 2012, 06:48 PM
I wonder if the XP will include the DLC civs to catch late adopters up to the game

I also wonder what their DLC strategy will be going forward given we're getting so many new civs in the package.

More Civs right after XP might be overkill.

Chibiabos
Feb 18, 2012, 12:21 AM
Anyone else think the expansion is the reason the patches have ground to a virtual halt (less frequent and less substantive, with quite a few bugs seemingly ignored)?

dexters
Feb 18, 2012, 02:50 AM
Anyone else think the expansion is the reason the patches have ground to a virtual halt (less frequent and less substantive, with quite a few bugs seemingly ignored)?

That was kind of obvious that they had shifted resources away from patching sometime in the 2nd half of last year. We just didn't know when the XP was coming if at all.

vexing
Feb 18, 2012, 03:41 AM
...
that's some hilarious stuff.
we should find some more source images

Anyone else think the expansion is the reason the patches have ground to a virtual halt (less frequent and less substantive, with quite a few bugs seemingly ignored)?

what bugs?

nokmirt
Feb 18, 2012, 05:46 AM
They have been working on this for some time. I doubt this was just started. The hush hush about it makes me believe thats the case.

forty2j
Feb 18, 2012, 09:20 AM
I wonder if the XP will include the DLC civs to catch late adopters up to the game

I also wonder what their DLC strategy will be going forward given we're getting so many new civs in the package.

More Civs right after XP might be overkill.

Seems pretty clear that the vanilla DLC will not be bundled with the xpac..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Louis XXIV
Feb 18, 2012, 09:55 AM
Anyone else think the expansion is the reason the patches have ground to a virtual halt (less frequent and less substantive, with quite a few bugs seemingly ignored)?

They do have a large patch coming up according to recent announcements.

Mivo
Feb 19, 2012, 07:37 PM
I actually like short-termed announcements for expansions. Three months is long enough to build up hype and milk it for a while, but not long enough for people to think, "Okay, well, I'll check back in half a year." (And after a year of no announcement, the "Is the game dead???!" threads start.)

For a base game it's different, though I agree with the others that the time of an announcement rarely ever reflects on the time of already done development. Civ5's problem may not chiefly have been "not enough time", but "the wrong people".

Drago Askani
Feb 20, 2012, 12:49 AM
I wonder if the XP will include the DLC civs to catch late adopters up to the game

I also wonder what their DLC strategy will be going forward given we're getting so many new civs in the package.

More Civs right after XP might be overkill.

Dear god I hope they dont include the dlc for free. That would be a slap in the face of all of us that bought them. You want them, you buy them.

Bechhold
Feb 20, 2012, 01:32 AM
I would think, like many others, is that it has been development for at least 6-7 months. What matters is how long they have been doing Play Testing, QA, Debugging etc.

Deggial
Feb 20, 2012, 04:23 AM
I agree, Bechhold. Usually, working at an expansion starts right after release of the main game.

What I fear about the three month of speculation time, are the expectations that will skyrocket as usual. There are already strong incidences for this here at the forum: Many threads are started and find their willing audience that are *not* based on facts we alredy know, but on what people *hope* willl be in the expansion.

And - as we all should know - too high expectations necessarily lead to disappointment. So, there is some danger in a too early proclamation. Personally, I would have prefered a closer timeframe between announcement and release.

Mivo
Feb 20, 2012, 10:58 AM
Dear god I hope they dont include the dlc for free. That would be a slap in the face of all of us that bought them. You want them, you buy them.

I doubt it. As you said, it would be a pretty short-sighted move and unnecessarily upset the very customers who didn't mind shelling out extra money.

What I expect is an inexpensive bundle as a way for people to "catch up", or maybe an individual price reduction for the old DLC. I'd not mind that, and I did buy all the DLC, even the unimpressive cradles. Then again, the stuff is cheap as it is for people who spend dozens or hundreds of hours with the game.

MadDjinn
Feb 20, 2012, 11:04 AM
I agree, Bechhold. Usually, working at an expansion starts right after release of the main game.

What I fear about the three month of speculation time, are the expectations that will skyrocket as usual. There are already strong incidences for this here at the forum: Many threads are started and find their willing audience that are *not* based on facts we alredy know, but on what people *hope* willl be in the expansion.

And - as we all should know - too high expectations necessarily lead to disappointment. So, there is some danger in a too early proclamation. Personally, I would have prefered a closer timeframe between announcement and release.

I don't mind the extra time in the public eye before the release.

If they're still in testing mode, or maybe finishing bits and pieces, the community could randomly come up with ideas that would be very simple to add in. Given that they've seemed to at least read some community sites looking for suggestions, that wouldn't surprise me. More complex, or less realistic/directional ideas would still be ignored for the Xpac release, but they might still consider it for later.

Louis XXIV
Feb 20, 2012, 11:06 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't mind a bundle. Even as someone who bought them, that wouldn't bother me. Although, with steam sales, it's mostly the same thing.

Bechhold
Feb 20, 2012, 02:40 PM
I'm sure they are still in development but also, I would hope, play testing right now. For example, the UI I'm sure can/is still being tweaked which is why I don't understand why people are freaking out about certain screenshots.

RuntimeError
Feb 20, 2012, 04:45 PM
Not so much speculation. In his interviews, he always plugged the "one thing in/one thing out" philosophy for the design of the game. From what we're seeing about the expansion, that doesn't seem to have guided the design. We're getting quite a few entirely new elements--or well, new implementations of elements that were abandoned from Civ IV.

Clearly Civ V was designed to appeal to a broad market by tightening the focus and scope of the game design. Maybe the design team for G&K figures that this is for the hard-core base, the people who want more features and all the increased complexity that goes with them.

Okay, so that is speculation, but not so much "wild" and...hey, what's with the "poor" crack anyway?!?

; )

I'm pretty sure Schaffer said that in theory there was a spot in Civ5 design that Religion could fit, but it couldn't be the same system of Civ4. They needed time and more work to come with a well-thought mechanic, and they decided to leave it aside at the time.

And for the main topic, sure there was balance, multiplayer and AI issues, but the singleplayer code as stable enough for nowdays standards. Civ5 at launch wasn't buggy. I bought at day one and never had a CTD or any serious bug, same to several friends of mine, just the red spots over tundras.

Skwink
Feb 20, 2012, 07:56 PM
Where in Europe is that?

A meteorology definition of when spring becomes summer is when the daily mean temperature over a week reaches 10 degrees Celsius. That means spring can turn into summer, can turn into spring and then back into summer.

Calendar late spring wold be in June, because Calendar Spring ends June 22.