View Full Version : Guess the UA/UB/UU of the civs


anandus
Feb 19, 2012, 02:24 PM
This topic slightly overlaps with New unique abilities discussion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454159) and Most Anticipated New Civilization (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454393).

Guess the units, buildings and abilities of the now known civs.
(although for broader discussion about UA's one can also have a look at the above topic).

Here are the civs in question and what's already known:
Byzantium:
UA - a 6th belief
Carthage:
- nothing known
Celts:
UA - extra faith when settled near forest
UU - Pict Warrior
Dutch:
UU - a ship that can steal gold from harbours and convert ships.
UB? UTI? UA? - Something that makes marhes fertile
Mayans:
- nothing known

Of course it's hard to guess it all, especially since we don't know what new units, buildings, techs, etc. there will be.

Now these are my guesses (I've omitted what is known):
Mayans:
UA - Faith specialists generate science
UB - Ball court, colosseum replacement, adds extra culture.
UB - Cenote, temple replacement, needs to be build near fresh water, extra faith.
Byzantium:
UU - Cataphract, knight replacement, extra combat strenght.
UU - Dromon, a ship with Greek Fire, don't know what it should replace.
Carthage:
UA - Increased income from overseas trade routes
UU - Numidian Cavalry, horseman replacement, bonus against mounted units
UU - Galloi, strong melee ship
Celts:
UB - Hórreo, a granary replacement, one additional food
Dutch:
UA - Luxury resource tiles generate one extra gold

Of course it is all guesswork and has no proper fundament whatsoever.

So, what are your ideas? Give me your guesses!

Haig
Feb 19, 2012, 02:58 PM
Byzantium:
Also been thinking for them to have Catapracht and Dromon, that would make a cool holy warriors -type Civ
Also think their unique ability, besides the extra Belief one, will boost their espionage

Carthage:
I always thought that Carthagians were a sort of crazy nomadic barbarian horde, stomping innocent roman legions with their elephants.. I was surprised to found out they were actually a quite peaceful(?) mercantile nation with a strong navy. :lol:
I bet they have

UU: Some sort of naval unit, replacing Trireme. Would have gone with those rampaging elephants but there's already two UUs of our snouted friends
UB: Replaces harbor, all luxury resources that are being worked by city generate xtra gold

Celts:
Unique Improvement, some sort of obelisks or mini-stone henges

Monthar
Feb 19, 2012, 03:16 PM
Dutch UB - Harbor replacement +1 gold from sea resources.

mitsho
Feb 19, 2012, 03:27 PM
With civ 5, it's important to think of a specific playstyle, as the three Uniques are (should be) tailored to fit together.

Byzantium

Additional Faith plus Dromon and Cataphract suits them very well. A Holy Warrior Civ as their distinct playstyle. Don't know what new effect they could give the Cataphract though.

Carthage
Commerce alone - f.e. a gold bonus on trade routes - is boring, as it is a straight bonus without altering gameplay or offering any choices. So I'd combine a gold offering UB (via trade routes) or generating UU (similar to the described Dutch one) with a Unique Ability focussing on Mercenaries, an ability to neglect your military and - when in need - quickly buy them for defense.

Celts
We already know they get Faith from Forests and that they have an early (Swordman replacing?) unique unit, so the third unknown bonus needs to be different from what the Iroquois get. Otherwise, the two civs will be too similar. Maybe a new Fort (Dunn) as a tile improvement so that they can defend them better. I am having difficulty making them distinct from the Iroquois atm.

Dutch
We know they are focused on Marshes (=fertile Coastal Regions) and Sea Travel/Commerce. They look to be a Tall Diplomatic Empire (the unique unit sounds to me as tailored to City states). Depending on what the Marsh thing is (UA or UI/UB), I would guess either a unique bank enhancing the money gain or something related to luxuries (luxuries are more easily gotten over city states when going tall as you cannot settle them all).

Louis XXIV
Feb 19, 2012, 07:26 PM
I suspect a tile improvement that can be built on hills that acts kind of like a Citadel (sort of like the Motte and Bailey from the 1066 scenario)

I suggested previously for Carthage that they have a UA that lets you purchase units cheaper. Combine that with a Cothon (Harbor producing gold), there would be good synergy. The UU would be a Numidian Cavalry. Alternatively, a Quinquereme, Libyan Infantry, etc. are all possible units.

Nyanko
Feb 19, 2012, 07:56 PM
For Carthage, I'd have the UA as Numidian Mercenaries, reduction in the cost to purchase units and their upkeep. This is due to the fact that the Carthaginians wielded a mostly mercenary army during all of its campaigns. I'd have the UU as a very cheap galley, to represent the way Carthage could field a large, cheap easy to build fleet (using serial numbers, just think, Carthage outdated Ikea by 3000 years!) during the punic wars. Honestly though I really don't want the Cothon to be the UB. They should dig deeper for something else.

CivilizedPlayer
Feb 19, 2012, 08:11 PM
Byzantine Empire could get improved walls too. The walls of Constantinople were the most advanced and cleverly designed of their time, and the sole reason why they weren't conquered numerous times by invaders.

Louis XXIV
Feb 19, 2012, 08:16 PM
Do we really need two civs with good walls?

fat_tonle
Feb 19, 2012, 08:40 PM
1. Carthage. They will probably have a horseman replacement, some devastating cavalry of Elephants or whatever cavalry/spearmen they had in Civ IV. You make those units cost less in terms of production. I like the mercenary option as well.

UU: Horseman sub
UB: Cothon (+2 gold, 50% more trade route yield over water, akin to Arabia)
UA: Mercenary Army. City states gift twice as many units OR cheaper unit purchasing. Works out either way.

2. Byzantium

UU: Catapracht
UA: 6th belief
UB: Hippodrome (Replaces circus. Produces +3 happiness and +2 culture per resource, ala incense/wine)

3. Dutch

UU: Privateer
UA: Tile improvements/gold
UB: ???

4. Celts

UA: Extra faith when settled near forest
UU: Pict Warrior
UB: ??? Dunes or whatever they had in Civ IV were pretty lame. Maybe something that combines a lighthouse and a wall for coastal cities only.

5. Mayan (Culture Civ)

UB: Ball Court, Stepped Pyramids (Extra culture/Happiness)
UA: Mayan Prophets (Settled Great People yield 50% more bonuses)
UU: Some spearman or archer crap that will be useless

Louis XXIV
Feb 19, 2012, 09:02 PM
Typically, there are more civs with 2 uus than others. However, in this expansion, that's hard to believe. Just counting civs that could have them is difficult. I think the Byzantines will have two uus. I think the Mayans and Dutch will not. The Celts and Carthage are somewhere in between. I don't expect the Celts to because no matter what you name their unit, it ends up basically the same (Gallic Warrior, Pictish Warrior, etc.). Carthage, I can think of six possibilities (Numidian Cavalry, Libyan Infantry, Sacred Band, Balearic Slingers, Elephants, and Quinquereme) , but some are relatively obscure and others are hard to find as a niche.

The tricky part is I can't think of any other civs with good options for two UU. The Zulu, Ethiopia, Sumerians, Hittites, or really any other suggestion.

anandus
Feb 20, 2012, 11:05 AM
I suggested previously for Carthage that they have a UA that lets you purchase units cheaper. Combine that with a Cothon (Harbor producing gold), there would be good synergy. Hmm.. I must say I like the idea of Carthage being able to have a unit purchase discount. Also the idea of a Cothon makes a lot of sense.
Gameplay-wise good, and historically sound. Should've thought of that before :)

Louis XXIV
Feb 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a long time and that would allow for a civ that plays uniquely, but also fits Carthage. It'll be a maritime civ (Cothon only benefits coastal cities) and it'll reflect the fact that they did rely on mercenary armies, using their substantial wealth to hire armies rather than having their citizens serve.

I'm leaning towards believing they'll give them two UUs, though, just because it'll be difficult to think of many civs with two units otherwise. But who knows?

Montov
Feb 20, 2012, 11:41 AM
The Dutch could be used to promote the windmill with an UB. Like giving it a food-bonus. Windmill is now a weak (costly) building and I like the view that Unique units/buildings are being used to promote a different strategy. Enhancing diplomacy could work as well, by receiving bonuses for Declaration of Friendships and Defensive Pacts.

Haig
Feb 20, 2012, 12:56 PM
I wasn't that excited for Carthago for the expansion, but the way you would design it, as a merchant empire with navy and mercenary army, they would be damn cool..!

Louis XXIV
Feb 20, 2012, 01:03 PM
Aw thanks. Someone tell Firaxis ;)

Asderfut
Feb 20, 2012, 02:28 PM
From what I've read, i think that the marsh-thing for the Dutch is a unique improvement that can only be built on marshes. I don't think its a UB or terraforming UA.

ShahJahanII
Feb 20, 2012, 05:06 PM
From what I've read, i think that the marsh-thing for the Dutch is a unique improvement that can only be built on marshes. I don't think its a UB or terraforming UA.

Care to post a source?

MadDjinn
Feb 20, 2012, 05:27 PM
Care to post a source?

I doubt he's got one, but then again, there's no official source that says it's a UB thing either.

We'll have to wait and see from official sources, no reviewers (who can get information wrong, especially if it's translated badly).

ShahJahanII
Feb 20, 2012, 05:29 PM
I doubt he's got one, but then again, there's no official source that says it's a UB thing either.

We'll have to wait and see from official sources, no reviewers (who can get information wrong, especially if it's translated badly).

Yeah, I can agree with that.

Dreadnought
Feb 20, 2012, 06:49 PM
To be honest, after my initial readings about the expansion, I was sure the Byzantines would get some sort of boost to espionage. I'm assuming that's not the case.

Louis XXIV
Feb 20, 2012, 08:25 PM
While western sources liked to talk about those "treacherous Greeks," Byzantium and religion clearly have far more to do with each other no matter how good they were at espionage (and allegedly assassination).

JBearIt
Feb 21, 2012, 12:07 PM
Typically, there are more civs with 2 uus than others. However, in this expansion, that's hard to believe. Just counting civs that could have them is difficult. I think the Byzantines will have two uus. I think the Mayans and Dutch will not. The Celts and Carthage are somewhere in between. I don't expect the Celts to because no matter what you name their unit, it ends up basically the same (Gallic Warrior, Pictish Warrior, etc.). .

The Celts were also known for their chariots.

Louis XXIV
Feb 21, 2012, 12:28 PM
In most cases, the weren't for combat. It seems they were more often used to transport to the battle. Otherwise, I'm not sure they stand out for chariots (the Mycenaean Greeks also used chariots, but we're not giving the Greeks chariots).

shaglio
Feb 22, 2012, 01:12 PM
Mayans:
UA - Faith specialists generate science
UB - Ball court, colosseum replacement, adds extra culture.
UB - Cenote, temple replacement, needs to be build near fresh water, extra faith.


I wouldn't go with Cenotes since they're not buildings, but naturally occuring landscape features. Besides, I doubt they'd have a civ with no UUs. Unfortunately, I can't think of a UU that they could have. In Civ 4 they had a unit that could enslave defeated military units (converting them to workers).

Also, for the Celts:
UU: Druid - Great Prophet replacement (similar to Mongolia's Khan that replaces the Great General), though what it does I haven't given too much thought to yet since we don't yet know how the Great Prophets will work. ***Have Great Prophets even been confirmed yet? I've read so many threads that I forget what's real and what's speculation***

Glassmage
Feb 22, 2012, 01:26 PM
Great Prophets is real. They allow you to get other beliefs later in the game.

Louis XXIV
Feb 22, 2012, 03:50 PM
I would presume, in the alternative, they let you build an improvement. I wonder if that'll ever be worth it.

crawf0rd
Feb 22, 2012, 05:37 PM
I wouldn't go with Cenotes since they're not buildings, but naturally occuring landscape features. Besides, I doubt they'd have a civ with no UUs. Unfortunately, I can't think of a UU that they could have. In Civ 4 they had a unit that could enslave defeated military units (converting them to workers).

Also, for the Celts:
UU: Druid - Great Prophet replacement (similar to Mongolia's Khan that replaces the Great General), though what it does I haven't given too much thought to yet since we don't yet know how the Great Prophets will work. ***Have Great Prophets even been confirmed yet? I've read so many threads that I forget what's real and what's speculation***

I don't remember them having that bonus in Civ 4. http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Holkan

chazzycat
Feb 22, 2012, 06:20 PM
for mayans i really think their UB should be a temple replacement that adds science. their temples were aligned with astronomical features and used as observatories as well as places of worship

actually i wouldn't be surprised if they get 2 UBs, with the other being the ball court.

Louis XXIV
Feb 22, 2012, 07:13 PM
I don't think they'll have two UBs. At most, it'll be a UB and a UI. I would not think of the Mayans as someone to not have any UU since they were fairly militaristic, but their units aren't all that well documented. Still, an Atlatl driven javelin throwing ranged unit would make the most sense, although I've commonly seen that referred to as part of Aztec warfare as well.

chazzycat
Feb 22, 2012, 07:27 PM
yeah, I wouldn't be surprised by that either. It's just a little boring and predictable...and I think the Maya should be differentiated better from the aztecs, who are clearly the more warlike of the two. The peaceful builder type with religion/science boosts would be a good fit, even if slightly historically innacurate.

chazzycat
Feb 22, 2012, 07:40 PM
on the byzantines - i really hope they aren't made the crusader or holy war civ. their strength was really more along the lines of burearocracy, civil service, etc. They had a strong, well organized central state, good diplomacy and espionage. And a great economy.

It would be kinda ironic actually, considering one of the Christian crusades actually conquered Constantinople and was the beginning of the end of their empire.

Louis XXIV
Feb 22, 2012, 07:48 PM
Well, they get religious bonuses, not necessarily religious combat bonuses. This indicates to me that Byzantium's strength will generally be in religion as a state institution, not for religion in holy war (although they weren't afraid to call to religious motivation for their generational struggle against the Sassanian Persians, especially when it came to Armenia).

In this way, I think it'll fit them quite well. Religion was a large part of their civil bureaucracy, especially in helping to legitimize the Emperor. Unlike in the west, where Kings were subordinate to the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople was generally expected to serve the needs of the Empire (not always the case, but in theory at least).

chazzycat
Feb 22, 2012, 08:13 PM
that would be ok, religion was certainly a huge part of the state. I've just seen a good deal of speculation that they would be a "holy warrior" type civ. just because they fought muslims a lot doesn't mean it was a holy war.

Louis XXIV
Feb 22, 2012, 08:31 PM
Basically, their ability is this:

When a religion is established, the founder can select benefits exclusively for his civ and he can select benefits that help both his civ and all civs that follow that religion. IIRC, you can choose two for each (not right away, but eventually). With Byzantium, you can choose an additional benefit (giving you 5 benefits). This means religion is more advantageous for them than for others.

I wonder if they have other benefits (such as making it easier to found a religion), but I don't have the answer to that question.

mitsho
Feb 23, 2012, 04:50 AM
The Holy Warrior Civ doesn't come from history, but from gameplay. As it seems probable that they will get two unique units (Dromons and Cataphracts), depending on the stats of those units, you will get the most out of them by chosing a military style of play. If for example, those two units would be very good on Defense, so that you could build a few of those and then neglect the other military on defense (as f.e. Korea), then the civ can be very peaceful by chosing the extra belief this way. We don't know enough on either the UA or the UU/UI/UB to tell, but the title of the thread is guess the civ and civilizations in Civ5 are more strongly customized to one playstyle than before, often not connected to actual history but more to myth, see Germany's "Cheap Barbarian Zerg Army" or France's "Wide Empire, not strong capital".

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 07:26 AM
2 UUs can also work to focus on a peaceful UA since you already have the military aspect covered. France is a good example of this.

shaglio
Feb 23, 2012, 08:45 AM
I don't remember them having that bonus in Civ 4. http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Holkan

Maybe I'm mistaking it with another civ, or Civ 3, or maybe I'm just halucinating. I swear there was a unit that could covert defeated units to workers in some iteration of a civ game.

Dreadnought
Feb 23, 2012, 09:09 AM
Maybe I'm mistaking it with another civ, or Civ 3, or maybe I'm just halucinating. I swear there was a unit that could covert defeated units to workers in some iteration of a civ game.

Civilization 3.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 09:16 AM
It was Civ3. Holkan were fairly generic, although they didn't require resources, which was nice.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 03:55 PM
Here's a random thought. The IGN article said the cultural bonuses for the Maya are tied to their calendar. What if their bonus doesn't occur based on researching a tech or doing something, but on a set turn? For example, a bunch of culture or even a free social policy on specific turns. Each calendar cycle is 52 years, which might be too short, but the long count might be appropriate. That would mean:

3114 (BCE), 2720, 2325, 1931, 1537, 1143, 748, 354, 41 (CE), 435, 830, 1224, 1618, 2012

That's 14, which is too much for a free policy, but a bunch of culture that perhaps scales wouldn't be too bad.

Eagle Pursuit
Feb 23, 2012, 04:07 PM
I'd like to see the Byzantine Fire-Ship and for the Mayans to have a UB that replaces the Observatory, can be built anywhere and provides both Science and Faith.

I'd also like to see the Carthaginians get a mounted UU (elephants of course) that can move slowly across mountains.

ShahJahanII
Feb 23, 2012, 04:15 PM
I'd like to see the Byzantine Fire-Ship and for the Mayans to have a UB that replaces the Observatory, can be built anywhere and provides both Science and Faith.

I'd also like to see the Carthaginians get a mounted UU (elephants of course) that can move slowly across mountains.

I disagree with the elephants.
Just because the Carthaginians used them, and 14 of them became famous in Hannibal's Crossing of the Alps, doesn't mean they should be the Carthaginian UU.
I still suggest Numidian Cavalry.

Gucumatz
Feb 23, 2012, 04:48 PM
Here's a random thought. The IGN article said the cultural bonuses for the Maya are tied to their calendar. What if their bonus doesn't occur based on researching a tech or doing something, but on a set turn? For example, a bunch of culture or even a free social policy on specific turns. Each calendar cycle is 52 years, which might be too short, but the long count might be appropriate. That would mean:

3114 (BCE), 2720, 2325, 1931, 1537, 1143, 748, 354, 41 (CE), 435, 830, 1224, 1618, 2012

That's 14, which is too much for a free policy, but a bunch of culture that perhaps scales wouldn't be too bad.

Now this would be cool.

MARDUK80
Feb 24, 2012, 01:08 AM
Here's a random thought. The IGN article said the cultural bonuses for the Maya are tied to their calendar. What if their bonus doesn't occur based on researching a tech or doing something, but on a set turn? For example, a bunch of culture or even a free social policy on specific turns. Each calendar cycle is 52 years, which might be too short, but the long count might be appropriate. That would mean:

3114 (BCE), 2720, 2325, 1931, 1537, 1143, 748, 354, 41 (CE), 435, 830, 1224, 1618, 2012

That's 14, which is too much for a free policy, but a bunch of culture that perhaps scales wouldn't be too bad.

Good thinking. This would be fun indeed. :goodjob:
I really liked the steveg700 idea for the Mayan UA: Cycles of the Sun and Moon: Whenever Maya is the first civilization to adopt a social policy, the empire receives a boost to science. Whenever Maya is the first civilization to learn a technology, the empire receives a boost to culture. The size of the bonus scales to the number of civ's currently in the game (more civ's = bigger boost for being first).

I would guess the official UA is something along those lines, culture:science/dates :)

Dreadnought
Feb 24, 2012, 08:19 AM
Good thinking. This would be fun indeed. :goodjob:
I really liked the steveg700 idea for the Mayan UA: Cycles of the Sun and Moon: Whenever Maya is the first civilization to adopt a social policy, the empire receives a boost to science. Whenever Maya is the first civilization to learn a technology, the empire receives a boost to culture. The size of the bonus scales to the number of civ's currently in the game (more civ's = bigger boost for being first).

I would guess the official UA is something along those lines, culture:science/dates :)

A fun one, but the problem being: if you're having a bad game, you could literally have this ability not proc even once.

Louis XXIV
Feb 24, 2012, 11:15 AM
More specifically, it'll be virtually useless on harder difficulties.

fat_tonle
Feb 24, 2012, 11:40 AM
That isn't a very good design for Mayan. Too general.

I would give them a bonuses for wonder completions. 50% enhanced bonuses for World Wonder construction.

On higher difficulties this is difficult to implement. But maybe something to help them get the wonders. A really good UB that creates excess culture early on. If you substitute monument or temples with a good UB, you can get that leg up early on.

MadDjinn
Feb 24, 2012, 11:58 AM
Here's a random thought. The IGN article said the cultural bonuses for the Maya are tied to their calendar. What if their bonus doesn't occur based on researching a tech or doing something, but on a set turn? For example, a bunch of culture or even a free social policy on specific turns. Each calendar cycle is 52 years, which might be too short, but the long count might be appropriate. That would mean:

3114 (BCE), 2720, 2325, 1931, 1537, 1143, 748, 354, 41 (CE), 435, 830, 1224, 1618, 2012

That's 14, which is too much for a free policy, but a bunch of culture that perhaps scales wouldn't be too bad.

Chances that Firaxis tied the Mayan civ (U*, whichever one) to the Mayan Calendar, the primary thing that most people 'barely' know about that civilization? hmm... could be what they usually do. :lol:

KrikkitTwo
Feb 24, 2012, 01:55 PM
I think the Mayan one might be more similar to Babylons:
1 Free Great Artist for researching Calendar (or one free social Policy?)

and one free one every X turns after that?

Birdjaguar
Feb 24, 2012, 02:22 PM
Here's a random thought. The IGN article said the cultural bonuses for the Maya are tied to their calendar. What if their bonus doesn't occur based on researching a tech or doing something, but on a set turn? For example, a bunch of culture or even a free social policy on specific turns. Each calendar cycle is 52 years, which might be too short, but the long count might be appropriate. That would mean:

3114 (BCE), 2720, 2325, 1931, 1537, 1143, 748, 354, 41 (CE), 435, 830, 1224, 1618, 2012

That's 14, which is too much for a free policy, but a bunch of culture that perhaps scales wouldn't be too bad.Most early calendars served as guides for agriculture rather than science. An agriculture bonus might fit very well for the Maya.

KrikkitTwo
Feb 24, 2012, 02:36 PM
Most early calendars served as guides for agriculture rather than science. An agriculture bonus might fit very well for the Maya.

That might be good... Calendar gives +1 food to riverside farms? (basically get Civil Service early?)

steveg700
Feb 24, 2012, 02:45 PM
Carthage
UA: As they relied on mercenaries, it sounds like they'd have a benefit at gaining units from military CS's.
UU's: My guess would be the quinquereme. Hannibal's amphibious elephants would be cool.

Maya
UA: I had an idea that I posted on the Ideas forum which folks seemed to like. Unfortunately, my timing was off as it was a week or two before the G&K announcement. Anyway, it had Maya gaining bonus culture whenever they were the first to learn a tech, and gaining science whenever they were the first to adopt a sopol. I think the idea of rewarding a civ for being the first to accomplish something makes the game feel competitive even during peacetime.
UU: Although warlike as all get out, they didn't really have standing armies, just militias drawn from the populace, so no UU would be appropriate evne if it defies the formula.
UB: The ballcourt is pretty prominent. Could be a colosseum that grants bonus production to melee and ranged units. Also, there are the "e groups" that acted as both primitive observatories and temples, so it could be a monument that grants bonus science.
UTI: The step pyramids would make an awesome cultural tile improvement, mainly because it could be built in jungles and forests. A pyramid jutting out of treetops is about as iconic as you can get.

steveg700
Feb 24, 2012, 03:06 PM
Ah, I see Marduk already mentioned my Maya idea.
A fun one, but the problem being: if you're having a bad game, you could literally have this ability not proc even once.

It is a problem, and that's the point. The UA challenges the player. You gotta go in with the plan to milk it, and choose your techs and sopols wisely.

In thread after thread when folks present their ideas for UA's, it's disappointing so how they predominantly come up with boring "bonus food for such-and-such terrain, bonus science for such-and-such buildings, bonus hammers for such-and-such strategic resources, bonus happiness for such-and-such luxury--oh, and how about some more gold from trade routes?" stuff. Reliable, consistent, and no strategy required. Play the game just like before, just with some freebies thrown in. Walk the bases until you reach home plate.

Certainly there are UA's that just hand out freebies (e.g. Russia or France). However, there's plenty of precedence for this amongst existing civ's. If you're playing Germany, Ottomans, or Songhai, for instance, you gotta go barb-hunting while they're in bloom. What are Rome's UU's worth without iron, or Mongolia's without a good supply of horses? The Incas encourage you to go hunting for mountains while Polynesia incentivizes you to find unobstructed coastlines. And Spain's the most fun of all to play IMO, because it offers a high risk/reward ratio for exploration.

More specifically, it'll be virtually useless on harder difficulties.

Why? Because on higher difficulties, you can't compete to be first at anything? No matter what choices you make, you just don't have a chance? The thing about the Cycles of Sun and Moon UA is that it isn't luck-of-the-draw like all of those UA's that require you to pray for a favorable map. Research and sopols are largely map-agnostic, and you have multiple angles to pursue. You might pursue a tech or sopol just because you don't think anyone else will go for it right away. You might go all out pursuing the Oracle or Great Library. You might keep your empire compact to retain an edge on sopol costs and find yourself snowballing science. To not have the UA proc once during a game amounts to not coming up with a strategy.

Having said all that, the other uniques that go with that UA should, of course, compliment it and give you an edge towards being first. Along with the UI, I suggested a UI (step pyramid) and UB (e group) that would give an early slight edge in culture or science.

That isn't a very good design for Mayan. Too general.

I would give them a bonuses for wonder completions. 50% enhanced bonuses for World Wonder construction.
How are bonuses to wonder completion not too general? How are world wonders part of Maya's distinctive identity? OK, there's Chichen Itza. Whate else?

What's most remarkable about the Mayans wasn't the physical works they produced, but rather the way they took their folklore and religious beliefs and used them to fuel scientific research rather than put themselves at odds with it.

steveg700
Feb 24, 2012, 03:36 PM
Here's a random thought. The IGN article said the cultural bonuses for the Maya are tied to their calendar. What if their bonus doesn't occur based on researching a tech or doing something, but on a set turn? For example, a bunch of culture or even a free social policy on specific turns. Each calendar cycle is 52 years, which might be too short, but the long count might be appropriate. That would mean:

3114 (BCE), 2720, 2325, 1931, 1537, 1143, 748, 354, 41 (CE), 435, 830, 1224, 1618, 2012

That's 14, which is too much for a free policy, but a bunch of culture that perhaps scales wouldn't be too bad.
Now this. This is intriguing.

Could wind up boring: if it's just static, consistent bonuses that occur on a clockwork schedule, then another "walk the bases" UA.

What would make it interesting is if It granted different bonsues depending on the calendar, so you'd have to time when you milk them. You have a bonus to attacking cities for a while, then maybe a penalty to attacking a city and a bonus to research.

Volapyk
Feb 24, 2012, 05:24 PM
Instead of having the bonus rely on turn/time why not have it activate on era changes, for example a free great artist every time you enter a new era. For a max of 5 free great artists.

turingmachine
Feb 24, 2012, 05:32 PM
That isn't a very good design for Mayan. Too general.

I would give them a bonuses for wonder completions. 50% enhanced bonuses for World Wonder construction.

You mean Egypt's UA? Why give two civs the same UA, and why would Maya get a +50% bonus when Egypt (for whom the bonus is arguably more appropriate) only gets +20%?

ShahJahanII
Feb 24, 2012, 05:35 PM
You mean Egypt's UA? Why give two civs the same UA, and why would Maya get a +50% bonus when Egypt (for whom the bonus is arguably more appropriate) only gets +20%?

I think h means 50% bonuses from wonders themselves.
That is still to generic and overpowered.

Louis XXIV
Feb 25, 2012, 03:33 PM
Most early calendars served as guides for agriculture rather than science. An agriculture bonus might fit very well for the Maya.

I was referencing the article, which explicitly said cultural bonuses.

King William I
Feb 25, 2012, 05:39 PM
Byzantium
UU-Varnarian? Gaurd (replaces swordsman, cheaper and stronger)
UB-Cahedral (replaces temple, generates faith)

The Dutch
UU-Swiss Mercenary (replaces Pikeman, extra strength
UU- Privateer (replaces Caravel, steals gold from port cities)
UA- Dikes converts marshes to more fertile tiles

The Mayans
UU- Holkan (replaces Pikeman, Gereates faith for unit killed)
UU- Calenar Maker?? (replaces Great Scientist, generates faith when expended)
UA- Ends at 2012 (causes unhappiness to all enemies)

Celts
UI- Henge (generates a bit of anything

Carthage
UU- Numidian Calvary (replaces horseman, cheaper)
UU- Carthaginian War Elephant (replaces horse archer, Stronger and can cross mountains without Great General)
UA- Mercenaries of the Alps March (units can climb mountains. Units are cheaper to purchase)

Louis XXIV
Feb 25, 2012, 05:44 PM
Varangian Guard and Cathedral, btw.

Swiss Mercenary is literally a Landsknecht, so I don't think that's likely.

fat_tonle
Feb 25, 2012, 07:29 PM
How are bonuses to wonder completion not too general? How are world wonders part of Maya's distinctive identity? OK, there's Chichen Itza. Whate else?

What's most remarkable about the Mayans wasn't the physical works they produced, but rather the way they took their folklore and religious beliefs and used them to fuel scientific research rather than put themselves at odds with it.

Absolutely correct.... I just can't think of something different than what we already have with Babylon/Korea, etc. All stagnant turtle civs... if you make Mayan pure culture, it becomes another India.

You want something in between all that. Then again, you don't want some early tech bonus that doesn't multiply or is useless later in the game. So a beef of culture early on, a free Artist or whatever won't give you much later in the game. And Korea already has the extra science bonus for settled GP.

Like you said with Spain, and I agree completely they are the most fun, is that you need unique gameplay. Inca can provide that. I agree with the other poster... prioritize forests.... build the Steppe Pyramids and get a science and military boost. Make another UB a culture builder. Then make the UA something that allows for greater chance of GP generation or something. It is not as revolutionary as Spain but it's the only thing that comes to mind considering the game as is.

ShahJahanII
Feb 25, 2012, 08:09 PM
Absolutely correct.... I just can't think of something different than what we already have with Babylon/Korea, etc. All stagnant turtle civs... if you make Mayan pure culture, it becomes another India.

You want something in between all that. Then again, you don't want some early tech bonus that doesn't multiply or is useless later in the game. So a beef of culture early on, a free Artist or whatever won't give you much later in the game. And Korea already has the extra science bonus for settled GP.

Like you said with Spain, and I agree completely they are the most fun, is that you need unique gameplay. Inca can provide that. I agree with the other poster... prioritize forests.... build the Steppe Pyramids and get a science and military boost. Make another UB a culture builder. Then make the UA something that allows for greater chance of GP generation or something. It is not as revolutionary as Spain but it's the only thing that comes to mind considering the game as is.

We could still make the Maya unique.
It is very possible.
Maybe something that combines culture and science would be good, seeing as we don't exactly have a civ like that (unless you count Korea).

MARDUK80
Feb 27, 2012, 04:42 AM
Most early calendars served as guides for agriculture rather than science. An agriculture bonus might fit very well for the Maya.

Yeah, the Mayan Milpa Farming system would justify the agriculture bonus. Perhaps +2Food and +1Culture from the Jungles, or something in that direction. After all Milpa system was more than just farming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milpa
"The concept of milpa is a sociocultural construct rather than simply a system of agriculture. It involves complex interactions and relationships between farmers, as well as distinct personal relationships with both the crops and land. For example, it has been noted that "the making of milpa is the central, most sacred act, one which binds together the family, the community, the universe...[it] forms the core institution of Indian society in Mesoamerica and its religious and social importance often appear to exceed its nutritional and economic importance."


I was referencing the article, which explicitly said cultural bonuses.

I think they might get both. Food and Culture from the UA and perhaps Science releated UI, like: Step Pyramid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_pyramid). "+1 Culture. Requires Philosophy. Can improve hills, plains, grasslands, forests, marshes, or jungles. Astronomy adds +1 Science."

steveg700
Feb 27, 2012, 11:35 AM
Absolutely correct.... I just can't think of something different than what we already have with Babylon/Korea, etc. All stagnant turtle civs... if you make Mayan pure culture, it becomes another India.
The ability I gave Maya specifically prevents it from playing like another city or culture civ. Instead, science and culture cross-pollenate.

fat_tonle
Feb 27, 2012, 04:28 PM
The ability I gave Maya specifically prevents it from playing like another city or culture civ. Instead, science and culture cross-pollenate.

Doesn't really add to game play.... just multiplies on top of your existing accomplishments.

They were a forest people, so maybe you prioritize that. But Iroquois depend on forests, and now Celts with this Faith bonus.

My only guess is that Maya could get a culture or science bonus from Jungle/Forest, at least giving you a focus as per the terrain you need when playing them. That is a game play change and not an add on or bonus, albeit other civs have that already.

I think we need more unique improvements. Polynesia has the best one in the game. Maybe a special farm or something, but not something unique as the Incans already have that. We don't have a science UI so here is an opportunity here. A science/military UI is good. 2+ range for archers in forests or battle combat bonus for melee units within two clicks. Whatever.

The whole adding science or culture on top of whatever doesn't seem very exciting though. What victory does that play toward? Science and culture is too OP IMO, although Faith could balance that out.

We don't really have a UA that deals with specialists. Maybe more bonuses for specialists or something. We could also have a UA that enhances GP abilities. Only Korea does that thus far. Those are game play changes.

KrikkitTwo
Feb 27, 2012, 05:12 PM
Doesn't really add to game play.... just multiplies on top of your existing accomplishments.

They were a forest people, so maybe you prioritize that. But Iroquois depend on forests, and now Celts with this Faith bonus.

My only guess is that Maya could get a culture or science bonus from Jungle/Forest, at least giving you a focus as per the terrain you need when playing them. That is a game play change and not an add on or bonus, albeit other civs have that already.

I think we need more unique improvements. Polynesia has the best one in the game. Maybe a special farm or something, but not something unique as the Incans already have that. We don't have a science UI so here is an opportunity here. A science/military UI is good. 2+ range for archers in forests or battle combat bonus for melee units within two clicks. Whatever.

The whole adding science or culture on top of whatever doesn't seem very exciting though. What victory does that play toward? Science and culture is too OP IMO, although Faith could balance that out.

We don't really have a UA that deals with specialists. Maybe more bonuses for specialists or something. We could also have a UA that enhances GP abilities. Only Korea does that thus far. Those are game play changes.

How about
UI.. Step Pyramid: in Jungle or Forest
-1 food, +1 culture +1 Science... unlocked with Calendar

Or a cultural one similar to the Babylonians science one

fat_tonle
Feb 27, 2012, 05:21 PM
How about
UI.. Step Pyramid: in Jungle or Forest
-1 food, +1 culture +1 Science... unlocked with Calendar

Or a cultural one similar to the Babylonians science one

I never viewed Mayan as a great artist type civ with all these great works and engineering feats. I think a good UI and UB would suffice in that department.

Something with extra artists is something I would give to a Renaissance civ like France. Their existing one is pretty unimaginative but culture driven nonetheless.

Babylon didn't exactly build space ships I get that, but the UA does give them an early leg up on ancient techs. Makes sense.

I don't think there is a civ worthy of extra artists. The first civilization giving us those major culture/engineering feats at least in popular culture was Egypt, and their UA reflects that.

I think the Steppe Pyramid UI is enough as far as game play. The UA would just be some bonus or multiplier. I just prefer it adds something in a way we already haven't seen.

ehecatzin
Mar 05, 2012, 08:26 PM
My idea for the Mayans:

UA: Mayapan league- allied city states generate faith, the idea behind this is that historically the Mayans functioned based on city state alliances, and were ruled by a theocracy, keep a network of CS and get great prophets.

Unique Improvement: Cenote shrine: improvement for jungle tile that generate faith, also functions as oasis.
Mayans build many of their cities around cenotes, because they were sources of fresh water, AND also sacred ,considered entrances to the underworld. Mayans should be able to thrive like no other on the jungle.

UU: Great priest a great general that generates faith for every kill nearby. That way you also get a small incentive incentive to go to war and keep up the religous expansion.

Anyway, the idea with the Mayans would be to create a tall tropical religious powerhouse, by means of cenotes , CS, and Great Priests. Imagine playing Maya, and being happy for the first time for spawning in the middle of one of those infinte jungles.

Oh and by the way, I hope they change the name of Chichen Itza wonder now, Chichen Itza its the city the Temple of Kukulcan is built on. Am I supposed to build Chichen Itza in Chichen Itza?

MARDUK80
Mar 06, 2012, 12:37 AM
My idea for the Mayans:

UA: Mayapan league- allied city states generate faith, the idea behind this is that historically the Mayans functioned based on city state alliances, and were ruled by a theocracy, keep a network of CS and get great prophets.

Unique Improvement: Cenote shrine: improvement for jungle tile that generate faith, also functions as oasis.
Mayans build many of their cities around cenotes, because they were sources of fresh water, AND also sacred ,considered entrances to the underworld. Mayans should be able to thrive like no other on the jungle.

UU: Great priest a great general that generates faith for every kill nearby. That way you also get a small incentive incentive to go to war and keep up the religous expansion.

Anyway, the idea with the Mayans would be to create a tall tropical religious powerhouse, by means of cenotes , CS, and Great Priests. Imagine playing Maya, and being happy for the first time for spawning in the middle of one of those infinte jungles.

Good ideas, like 'em :)
Not sure how the Faith system will work in G&K, but your ideas for the Maya are well reasoned. Would be a fun Civ to play with.


Oh and by the way, I hope they change the name of Chichen Itza wonder now, Chichen Itza its the city the Temple of Kukulcan is built on. Am I supposed to build Chichen Itza in Chichen Itza?


Good point! Hopefully they will consider this and the "updated" city list. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454630) As a name Chichen Itza is much better known, but in my opinion, being historically correct should be more important. Then the people would learn :)

The Maya name "Chichen Itza" means "At the mouth of the well of the Itza." This derives from chi', meaning "mouth" or "edge", and ch'en or ch'e'en, meaning "well." Itzá is the name of an ethnic-lineage group that gained political and economic dominance of the northern peninsula. One possible translation for Itza is "wizard (or enchantment) of the water."

Dominating the North Platform of Chichen Itza is the Temple of Kukulkan (a Maya feathered serpent deity similar to the Aztec Quetzalcoatl), usually referred to as El Castillo ("the castle").

On the Spring and Autumn equinoxes, in the late afternoon, the northwest corner of the pyramid casts a series of triangular shadows against the western balustrade on the north side that evokes the appearance of a serpent wriggling down the staircase. Some have suggested the effect was an intentional design by the Maya builders to represent the feathered-serpent god Kukulcan.

Gucumatz
Mar 06, 2012, 03:46 PM
Good ideas, like 'em :)
Not sure how the Faith system will work in G&K, but your ideas for the Maya are well reasoned. Would be a fun Civ to play with.





Good point! Hopefully they will consider this and the "updated" city list. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454630) As a name Chichen Itza is much better known, but in my opinion, being historically correct should be more important. Then the people would learn :)

Kukulkan is basically Quetzalcoatl.

Just like my name Gucumatz, is basically Kukulcan.

Just like Jupiter is basically Zeus (with a select few changes). They are the same god in all practicality.

========

Anyways, I really like Louis's idea.

Gucumatz
Mar 06, 2012, 03:56 PM
Anyways, instead of perhaps an ancient unit for the Maya, we could always go with a wildcard with the Cruzobs. In the northern Maya state in the late 1800s these followers of the old ways fought primarily in the name of the old religious ways and perhaps could provide a faith bonus.

Would be an interesting surprise to give a faith based early gunpowder unit to the Maya. Crazier things have happened (like having a gunpowder unit for Ethiopia in Civ 4)

chazzycat
Mar 06, 2012, 04:44 PM
We could still make the Maya unique.
It is very possible.
Maybe something that combines culture and science would be good, seeing as we don't exactly have a civ like that (unless you count Korea).

Why not count Korea...thats exactly their niche. I think religion/science is more appropriate for Maya.

ShahJahanII
Mar 06, 2012, 06:24 PM
Why not count Korea...thats exactly their niche. I think religion/science is more appropriate for Maya.

I see what you are saying.
We don't know how faith works exactly, but I totally agree with that suggestion when we do.

gaiko
Mar 06, 2012, 07:13 PM
It will be ability to end the game at Year 2012.

What else did you think it would be? :lol:

ehecatzin
Mar 06, 2012, 07:18 PM
I know Kukulcan is Quetzalcoatl, but the temple we know as temple of Quetzalcoatl is located in Teotihuacan.

Anyway you rise a valid point, the Mayans could very well get a riflemen faith based unit, perhaps with guerilla bonus? After all the Mayan population fought for decades in the caste war.

drubell
Mar 06, 2012, 08:03 PM
I personally think that Mayan UA will be free Great Prophet at Calendar + some sort of bonus with city-states.

moysturfurmer
Mar 08, 2012, 12:57 AM
based on the new screenshot, I'm guessing the Dutch UI (built on a marsh) gives you a luxury resource to trade (tulips). That way, you can mimic the tulip bubble bursting with the fact that it's effects are greatly reduced once every other civ has that resource for however many turns you sold it for.

At least I can hope.

anandus
Mar 08, 2012, 02:30 AM
I think it's a tile improvement, not a luxury.
Although I must admit, the idea of a tulip luxury sounds interesting.
But I think a tile improvement with extra food (and gold?) seems the most logical thing.

chazzycat
Mar 08, 2012, 02:28 PM
oh man, a unique tulip luxury would be friggin cool. extra gold seems more likely though, unfortunately.

CYZ
Mar 08, 2012, 02:33 PM
based on the new screenshot, I'm guessing the Dutch UI (built on a marsh) gives you a luxury resource to trade (tulips). That way, you can mimic the tulip bubble bursting with the fact that it's effects are greatly reduced once every other civ has that resource for however many turns you sold it for.

At least I can hope.

That would be... very fun but also very odd...

I think it's a UI for marshes (and maybe lakes): the Polder. Why? There is a dike and windmill (drainage), so it certainly is a Polder graphicly. They probably added the tullips just for the authentic look.

Monthar
Mar 09, 2012, 09:08 AM
Attila's Court isn't really that bad of a city name. According to this map the only known "city" was simply called Palace of Attila.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Empire_of_Attila.gif

According to every article I've read about the Huns and Hunnic Empire, every other city they controlled was a city they captured. They razed other cities.

So, my guess for the Huns or Hunnic Empire UA is:
Cannot build settlers. All units have a bonus vs cities. Captured cities come out of rebellion or are razed in half the time.

This means they wouldn't need more than 1 city name, because they'd only build a capital and are supposed to capture other cities.

CYZ
Mar 09, 2012, 09:12 AM
Attila's Court isn't really that bad of a city name. According to this map the only known "city" was simply called Palace of Attila.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Empire_of_Attila.gif

According to every article I've read about the Huns and Hunnic Empire, every other city they controlled was a city they captured. They razed other cities.

So, my guess for the Huns or Hunnic Empire UA is:
Cannot build settlers. All units have a bonus vs cities. Captured cities come out of rebellion or are razed in half the time.

This means they wouldn't need more than 1 city name, because they'd only build a capital and are supposed to capture other cities.

Hahaha, that would be awesome. Though they'd be a total one trick pony. They'd really be the barbarian civ :p

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 09, 2012, 09:26 AM
It fits with their historic M.O. and it solves the Hunnic city list problem. I think it makes for a scary/fun/challenging neighbor.

Perhaps one of their UU's is a Seige Tower replacing the Catapult which has a higher strength for defense but a range of 1.

AbsintheRed
Mar 09, 2012, 09:28 AM
According to every article I've read about the Huns and Hunnic Empire, every other city they controlled was a city they captured. They razed other cities.

Yep, I also know it this way

So, my guess for the Huns or Hunnic Empire UA is:
Cannot build settlers. All units have a bonus vs cities. Captured cities come out of rebellion or are razed in half the time.

This means they wouldn't need more than 1 city name, because they'd only build a capital and are supposed to capture other cities.

Actually this could work
Good thinking! :king:

blackcatatonic
Mar 09, 2012, 09:36 AM
Great idea. Sounds awesome - I hope the devs are reading!

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 09, 2012, 09:39 AM
Of course, if you discover Attilla is your neighbor early in the game, wipe his capital out ASAP, because you're in his sights.

bonafide11
Mar 09, 2012, 09:43 AM
Of course, if you discover Attilla is your neighbor early in the game, wipe his capital out ASAP, because you're in his sights.

Ha, I was just thinking the same thing. Finding Attilla as an AI neighbor would be a huge red flag because there is essentially no chance of peace with him. It still would be fun though and make for an original UA and civilization. I like the idea.

Louis XXIV
Mar 09, 2012, 09:53 AM
Great idea. Sounds awesome - I hope the devs are reading!

If they haven't thought of it by now, it's not going to get added. While a cool idea, that has setbacks for things like the Liberty tree.

CYZ
Mar 09, 2012, 10:06 AM
If they haven't thought of it by now, it's not going to get added. While a cool idea, that has setbacks for things like the Liberty tree.

Heck no, the only way for the Huns to get a second settled city!

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 09, 2012, 10:08 AM
Or one of their UU's replaces the Settler with something else, so Liberty gives them one of the UU's.

SammyKhalifa
Mar 09, 2012, 10:09 AM
Or one of their UU's replaces the Settler with something else, so Liberty gives them one of the UU's.

Plus I'd expect the policies to get a bit reworked anyhow (yet again). Piety at least.

blackcatatonic
Mar 09, 2012, 10:22 AM
Heck no, the only way for the Huns to get a second settled city!

Probably called "Attila's Other Court" :D

Glassmage
Mar 09, 2012, 12:49 PM
I LOVE the 1 capital city idea and capture the rest. Fun UA fun civ! :D

Morningcalm
Mar 09, 2012, 04:08 PM
It would be really hard to balance the Huns if that is their UA, but it would fit their culture well, true.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 09, 2012, 04:11 PM
I was thinking about that too. They'd get pretty screwed if they didn't get some good production and probably horses right off the bat, and being dependent on annexed cities for additional production is hell on your happiness.

blackcatatonic
Mar 09, 2012, 04:24 PM
I was thinking about that too. They'd get pretty screwed if they didn't get some good production and probably horses right off the bat, and being dependent on annexed cities for additional production is hell on your happiness.

True. For this model to work, I think they'd need to get some sort of happiness bonus - 50% less unhappiness from annexed cities, or something...

Monthar
Mar 09, 2012, 04:27 PM
That would only be an issue before they can get courthouses in those annexed cities. In fact, annexed cities with a courthouse are better than settled cities.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 09, 2012, 04:30 PM
Being unable to found new cities, they have to make their first war pretty quickly in order to grow as quickly as the other, more normal civs. Well before Courthouses are available.

Cicero63
Mar 09, 2012, 04:31 PM
That theory could be true, in the screenshots there is several Carthaginian cities and Dutch cities, yet only one Hun city.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 09, 2012, 04:34 PM
There's only so much room on a screen. The rest of their empire could've stretched to the northwest. We just don't know.

I file it under "it would be cool and works with the civ's MO"

Monthar
Mar 09, 2012, 04:37 PM
Being unable to found new cities, they have to make their first war pretty quickly in order to grow as quickly as the other, more normal civs. Well before Courthouses are available.

No more so than any other civ where the player decides to build NC before a 2nd city. After all, mathematics isn't that deep in the tree.

Plus you don't have to annex those captured cities right away. Even as just puppets, they will boost your science rate and get you to courthouses faster.

fat_tonle
Mar 09, 2012, 06:01 PM
Unable to found cities would be comically bad. Not saying you can't win a one city culture game but honestly, that plays into one dimensional Honor finisher every single time. No flexibility.

bonafide11
Mar 09, 2012, 06:04 PM
Unable to found cities would be comically bad. Not saying you can't win a one city culture game but honestly, that plays into one dimensional Honor finisher every single time. No flexibility.

If you play as the Huns, you probably wouldn't be going for a peaceful victory, just like you wouldn't be going for a diplomatic victory with Genghis Khan. It would make the Huns a unique civilization unlike other ones.

fat_tonle
Mar 09, 2012, 06:07 PM
Yeah Mongols UA is terrible because domination is probably more easy with the aide of city states to buffer and deflect the waves of enemies you have.

Then again, if you are a conservative player, you can strategically eliminate two CS's, hence garner alliances with their rival CS's. And that can play way into a diplomatic victory. Note the new "fear" option CS's will have if you threaten them with units. No reason why Mongols wouldn't get an enhanced bonus toward that. It could factor into a diplomatic win.

janboruta
Mar 09, 2012, 06:56 PM
Heck, even Japan is slated to domination victory more than to any other, given its godly UA and those delicious Samurai for mid-game rushes. Then I don't see anything bad in the Huns being warmonger, domination-centered Civ. Civ 5 brought REALLY unique UAs for civs.

Let's say the Huns can't settle more than one city. Cultural victory? Puppet your conquests or annex 1-2 at best and pop out policies like any other Civ that needs to buy cultural city states. What's wrong with that?

fat_tonle
Mar 09, 2012, 07:28 PM
So what happens with Liberty? Get another extra worker? Another unit of equal value of your choice? That policy would have to be reworked just because of the Huns, and it is not even a bad policy.

I really don't see any UU that could sub a settler.

seasnake
Mar 09, 2012, 07:34 PM
So what happens with Liberty? Get another extra worker? Another unit of equal value of your choice? That policy would have to be reworked just because of the Huns, and it is not even a bad policy.

I really don't see any UU that could sub a settler.

no, the Huns get to found one other city that way. They can't build settlers, but if they get one they can use it.

Honestly though, looking at the screens it does look like there are no other names for Hun cities other than Attila's Court, so maybe this is right.

fat_tonle
Mar 09, 2012, 07:42 PM
So Bleda's Court then....

And what about captured Settlers? Rare but possible. Obviously you'd probably go tradition with this civ anyway but food for thought.

Monthar
Mar 09, 2012, 08:26 PM
So Bleda's Court then....

And what about captured Settlers? Rare but possible. Obviously you'd probably go tradition with this civ anyway but food for thought.

Captured settlers already become workers for everyone, so that's not an issue.

Edit: As far as the Liberty goes, you just don't get anything from that one policy. It's already like that in the Korean scenario when playing as Korea, China or Japan. Even without the free settler and not being able to build settlers, the rest of the tree would work just fine. After all, this UA idea would still let them capture and keep cities others build, so they'd still get the happiness bonus from trade routes. The great person of your choice at the end would still be very useful.

Also consider how much of a benefit the reduction in rebellion/razing would be. Say you capture a city that's at 28 population when you attack. That city will be at 14 when captured. Every other civ would be waiting 14 turns to raze the city or14 turns before they can even get a courthouse in it if they annex. With this UA idea, you'd only be waiting 7 turns. Even if the city remained a puppet, that's an extra 7 turns of the citizens working the gold tiles and manning the merchant specialists slots. So your GPT would jump up a lot sooner after a capture than it would for anyone else.

CivilizedPlayer
Mar 09, 2012, 08:36 PM
UA's are designed to make your gameplay resemble that civilization a little more. For instance, India winds up with big, sprawling cities; and Genghis Khan will usually a powerful mounted army. This supposed Hun UA wouldn't serve to make you play like the Huns really were. You'd wind up with a tall, cultural civilization. Although the idea is intriguing (and would save Firaxis from having to come up with bizarre city names for the Huns), it seems unlikely.

Monthar
Mar 09, 2012, 08:44 PM
You would only end up with a tall empire if you chose to ignore most of the UA and only focused on the "can't build settlers" part. That would be like playing the Mongols and never building a Keshik or playing Siam and refusing to build Wats, or playing Babylon and never producing GSs.

seasnake
Mar 09, 2012, 08:48 PM
You would only end up with a tall empire if you chose to ignore most of the UA and only focused on the "can't build settlers" part. That would be like playing the Mongols and never building a Keshik or playing Siam and refusing to build Wats, or playing Babylon and never producing GSs.

Worse, it would be like playing Siam and attacking every city state you need while neglecting patronage. If you pick a civ you are essentially picking a playstyle.

MadDjinn
Mar 09, 2012, 09:10 PM
Honestly though, looking at the screens it does look like there are no other names for Hun cities other than Attila's Court, so maybe this is right.

You assume that was a 'normal' game and not a marketing setup image (which all of them are).

Louis XXIV
Mar 10, 2012, 12:30 AM
It's probably set up, but it's designed to be realistic and to give hints about the final game.

fat_tonle
Mar 10, 2012, 11:15 AM
Captured settlers already become workers for everyone, so that's not an issue.

Edit: As far as the Liberty goes, you just don't get anything from that one policy. It's already like that in the Korean scenario when playing as Korea, China or Japan. Even without the free settler and not being able to build settlers, the rest of the tree would work just fine. After all, this UA idea would still let them capture and keep cities others build, so they'd still get the happiness bonus from trade routes. The great person of your choice at the end would still be very useful.

Also consider how much of a benefit the reduction in rebellion/razing would be. Say you capture a city that's at 28 population when you attack. That city will be at 14 when captured. Every other civ would be waiting 14 turns to raze the city or14 turns before they can even get a courthouse in it if they annex. With this UA idea, you'd only be waiting 7 turns. Even if the city remained a puppet, that's an extra 7 turns of the citizens working the gold tiles and manning the merchant specialists slots. So your GPT would jump up a lot sooner after a capture than it would for anyone else.

So you are going to have to two shot to get to Republic.... a pretty weak policy considering the mentioned/proposed Hunnic abilities, and get a pretty worthless finisher IMO?

It's a terrible tree for the Huns any way you slice it.

guczy
Mar 10, 2012, 12:21 PM
I don't see why people are upset about a civ not getting any benefits from a SP. Japan for example doesn't get anything from populism right now.

Monthar
Mar 10, 2012, 01:38 PM
So you are going to have to two shot to get to Republic.... a pretty weak policy considering the mentioned/proposed Hunnic abilities, and get a pretty worthless finisher IMO?

It's a terrible tree for the Huns any way you slice it.

How can you say a free great person of your choice, that doesn't delay the normal generation of them, is worthless? This is by far one of the best finishers of all the policy trees.

ehecatzin
Mar 10, 2012, 05:00 PM
We went from shun for the Huns to some great ideas in just a couple of days. Im thinking that if the Huns cant found new cities perhaps they could get a UU replacing the settler, something like "hunnic horde" a UU that functions like a city but can move and resettle, (but cant grow past a certain point, perhaps they could grow like a regular city reaching Industrial or something like that).

That coupled with the idea to give Huns bonus vs cities and half conquer/raze time would help them in growing early game , and then go conquer the big cities of every neighboor in sight.

It would be great fun to push a massive Horde of army and cities to crush anyone in sight, tho would be terrifyiing to have Attila right beside you.

Anyway, Im hoping for a very unique experience with the Huns.

vonbach
Mar 10, 2012, 05:18 PM
I think they'll probably get an early horse archer as a UU.
Maybe a settler UU that can defend itself in an option.

fat_tonle
Mar 10, 2012, 06:20 PM
How can you say a free great person of your choice, that doesn't delay the normal generation of them, is worthless? This is by far one of the best finishers of all the policy trees.

Considering you get generals (quite early) with Honor, get a massive growth bonus for your entire empire with tradition, get 15% cheaper future policies with Piety, get additional GP from allied CS's with Patronage....

It doesn't compare with other finishers. Best you can do is land an Engineer and get a one turn wonder, or land an scientist that light bulbs a tech that could potentially lead to a wonder, or a quicker building/military unit.

In fact.... the Hagia Sofia alone is better than the Liberty finisher.

How anyone fails to see that Liberty is BY FAR the worst finisher as is doesn't understand the game that well IMO.

We went from shun for the Huns to some great ideas in just a couple of days. Im thinking that if the Huns cant found new cities perhaps they could get a UU replacing the settler, something like "hunnic horde" a UU that functions like a city but can move and resettle, (but cant grow past a certain point, perhaps they could grow like a regular city reaching Industrial or something like that).

That coupled with the idea to give Huns bonus vs cities and half conquer/raze time would help them in growing early game , and then go conquer the big cities of every neighboor in sight.

It would be great fun to push a massive Horde of army and cities to crush anyone in sight, tho would be terrifyiing to have Attila right beside you.

Anyway, Im hoping for a very unique experience with the Huns.

See this is an idea that makes sense. How about a settlement that can pump military units out only? Get a certain cap on number of tiles it can work... produces no additional unhappiness.... I don't know. You can mess around with it.

A +15% city attack for all units would be a beyond lame UA. One dimensional and no imagination. But essential if not allowed to found cities.

bonafide11
Mar 10, 2012, 07:24 PM
A +15% city attack for all units would be a beyond lame UA. One dimensional and no imagination. But essential if not allowed to found cities.

Hyperbole aside, it is clearly not a UA with "no imagination" as there is no current UA that resembles anything close to it. It would be the most unique UA in the game currently. While you may not care for it particularly, it would make playing as the Huns unlike playing with any other civ in the game, which takes imagination and would be fun.

King William I
Mar 10, 2012, 07:27 PM
It could be

The Netherlands:
UU: East India Ship (Replaces Privateer; steals gold from port cities without declaring war)
UI: Polder (culture and gold bonus)
UA: East India Company (gold bonus per luxury resource, happiness from luxury resouces doubled)

The Maya:
UU: Holkan (Replaces Spearman; no movement penalty from forests and jungle)
UI: Step Pyramid (faith and science bonus)
UA: Calendar Stones (free great prophet when calendar discovered, great prophet generation increased by 50%)

Celtia
UU: Pictish Warrior (Replaces Warrior; gains faith from kills)
UB: Gaelic Hill Fort (replaces Castle; twice as much defense as normal castle)
UA: Forest Temples (faith from foests)

The Huns
UU: Gothic Hairus (replaces swordsman; stonger and cheaper than regular swordsman)
UU: Horse Bowman (replaces horseman; faster than regular horse archer, can also range attack)
UA: Born From Barbarians (Barbarian units and camps automatically convert to your side upon attack)

Carthage:
UU: Numidian Calvary (replaces horseman; cheaper than horseman)
UU: Stratego (replaces Great General; allows units in radius to cross mountains)
UA: Merceanary Army (purchasing units costs 50% less)

Byzantium:
UU: Varangian Gaurd (replaces swordsman; cheaper and greater defense)
UU: Tagmata (replaces Knight; boost when fighting in friendly territory)
UA: Church of Constantinople (extra 6th belief in religion)

True_Candyman
Mar 10, 2012, 07:30 PM
If the huns can't found cities maybe their unique unit will be some kind of caravan that can transform into a camp that can only build military units.

It would work very nicely in conjunction with 15% city attack bonus, but i think instead they'll get a siege weapon that'll have a bigger bonus vs cities instead of the trebuchet or a horse archer without a bonus to attacking cities.

UA could be something involving getting better rewards for pillaging, that would be kind of cool.

True_Candyman
Mar 10, 2012, 07:32 PM
UA: East India Company (gold bonus per luxury resource, happiness from luxury resouces doubled)

This wouldn't happen in a million years. It's so incredibly overpowered.

Your hun one is also incredibly powerful and nullifies germany and the ottomans in their current state.

King William I
Mar 10, 2012, 07:34 PM
This wouldn't happen in a million years. It's so incredibly overpowered.

maybe not that exactly, but something along those lines

Monthar
Mar 10, 2012, 08:15 PM
I never specified a 15% city attack bonus. In fact if I were to specify, I'd say either start with Siege I or a special 25% bonus, so with Siege I you'd have a 50% bonus and any units that can get to Siege III would have a 100% bonus.

fat_tonle
Mar 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
Huns should get a mobile battering ram that is cheap and has no Iron requirement. If Iron is required, it should automatically get a city attack promotion. Their horse UU can be whatever, I'm sure it will be good.

I think the civs need to be even more geared toward when they were at their peak in history. Even though it is supposed to be a game where history is as you see fit, realism that is a historically accurate representation of a time or civilization is just as important. That's why I don't like abilities that are too general and do not accurately represent that civ. I'm talking about the England's, Ottomans, German's, and India's or the world.

bhavv
Mar 11, 2012, 08:00 PM
Out of all of the ideas, I'm really favoring the ideas for the Mayans, Dutch and Carthage.

How about something like:

Ballcourt - colloseum replacement, 2 extra happiness, 2 extra culture, 2 gold additional upkeep cost.
Holkan - Spearman replacement, 7 str, 2 movement points, same cost as a warrior.
UA - Something to do with the new faith stuff.

Cothon - Harbor replacement +2 gold, +1 gold from sea resources, lowered upkeep to 4 gold.
Some kind of elephant mercenary UU
Mercanary UA - 15% lower unit rush buy cost

Dike - replaces seaport, +2 food from fish, +2 gold from pearls, +1 food, +1 production from whales, +2 production from coastal oil (on top of the standard seaport bonuses).
Unique ship of some kind
UA - +2 food from marshes, +1 food in coastal cities.

Id really enjoy playing all of those.

... Also please buff Elizabeths UA by adding +10% naval unit strength, she was fun at first but has gotten weak now out compared to most others.

snipperrabbit!!
Mar 14, 2012, 12:44 PM
I bet the Huns will have a cheaper courthouse UB !

Mango Elephant
Mar 17, 2012, 08:39 PM
I bet the Huns will have a cheaper courthouse UB !

That, or two cheap and early UUs.

Pembroke
Mar 19, 2012, 11:15 AM
Unable to found cities would be comically bad. Not saying you can't win a one city culture game but honestly, that plays into one dimensional Honor finisher every single time. No flexibility.

What if they were very, very good at conquering cities? Historically the huns were feared so much that quite a few times a city would surrender without any resistance and open the gates hoping to be spared that way. That could translate to a unique ability:

Hunnic Terror: An enemy non-capital city that is outnumbered (calculated by power including defense bonuses of the city, not just unit numbers) by hun military units occupying its work area has a 50% chance of surrendering at the first hun attack against the city.

To balance this the surrendered cities will again switch sides if their original civ does the same i.e. comes with a sizeable force to liberate it. Essentially the same mechanism of hunnic terror but in reverse and works only for the original civ and only for cities that surrendered to the huns.

That would make expanding the Hun empire quite fast but make it also vulnerable for a counter-attack. It would also make you play the Huns somewhat like they did in the history, too, keeping a large mobile military that constantly travels around the Empire trying to keep the cities in line.

Would be fun, I think. :)

fat_tonle
Mar 19, 2012, 02:40 PM
So how come the Mongol bonus only cater to CS's while the Hunnic ability would cater to every opposing city? Wouldn't make for great balance. Obviously the Mongols can build more cities, but it is probably easier to capture an early CS with them instead. Huns would be too powerful with a significant city attack.

I don't think it would be very balanced considering Huns would also have pretty good UU's in all likelihood, being a warmonger.

Louis XXIV
Mar 19, 2012, 03:12 PM
Well, we don't know what their UU(s) will be, so there's no point holding that against them.

I think not being able to build settlers would actually be quite a penalty, hence the need for a stronger benefit.

nokmirt
Mar 29, 2012, 02:35 PM
Is there any information on the Netherlands Sea Beggar and Polder UUs?

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 29, 2012, 02:55 PM
Supposedly the Polder provides Tulips, a unique luxury resource. All we really know about the Sea Dagger(Beggar) is that it is a melee naval unit. It's probably a UU of the privateer.

Louis XXIV
Mar 29, 2012, 03:01 PM
We know the UU is a melee unit that lets you attack cities and steal gold. We know the UI gives a unique resource they can sell. There's something vague about getting more land, which I agree is uncertain. Their UA was described as letting them trade luxuries while still getting happiness from them.

We don't have perfect information, but that's the best of any. It would be nice to confirm if it's a Sea Dagger or Sea Beggar, though.

Haig
Mar 29, 2012, 03:34 PM
I'm curious about Carthago, will it be a militaristic or commercial
civ? Maybe a mix?

I like the idea of mercenary Ability, but maybe like:

50% cheaper purchasing units. Units purchased this way
have twice the upkeep.

That way you'd get army up quickly, and disband it if you
ran out of gold.

Louis XXIV
Mar 29, 2012, 03:57 PM
While I understand the reason in the real world why you would have them cost twice as much to keep (although I'll point out that, for the most part, they were paid in plunder so they didn't cost as much), but I also think there should be a balance need. If the ability to purchase is too good, you could balance it with support costs. That being said, late in game, such costs could be ridiculously high.

vonbach
Mar 29, 2012, 04:30 PM
I'm curious about Carthago, will it be a militaristic or commercial
civ? Maybe a mix?
I think it would be mostly commercial. They'll almost certainly
get a bonus to naval travel with maybe a -15% cost in purchased units added
being appropriate.

Beefie
Mar 29, 2012, 05:29 PM
As the developers have already said the UA for the Mayans will be calander related, I wonder what this will mean. Certain benefits for specific years??
Mayan civ is automatically destroyed if they haven't won by 2012AD :lol:

Gucumatz
Mar 29, 2012, 06:47 PM
As the developers have already said the UA for the Mayans will be calander related, I wonder what this will mean. Certain benefits for specific years??
Mayan civ is automatically destroyed if they haven't won by 2012AD :lol:

Wonder if that means I would die... So hate the stupid "2012" thing lol... Its a misrepresentation of our ancient calender and an end of the world scenario goes against everything that the ancient Maya belief stood against lol.

Basically just a Western love for "Doomsdays" placed onto our culture.

Louis XXIV
Mar 29, 2012, 10:31 PM
As the developers have already said the UA for the Mayans will be calander related, I wonder what this will mean. Certain benefits for specific years??
Mayan civ is automatically destroyed if they haven't won by 2012AD :lol:

I suggested in the past a free social policy (or at least a culture boost) every time they hit a full calendar cycle (one of those cycles takes place in 2012), but I think they occur too frequently early in the game.

awesome
Mar 30, 2012, 12:29 AM
according to this article (http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_expansion.html), pictish warriors are supposed to get faith from combat, so i doubt that the maya will also be getting it, though i realize this information may have come after people suggested that in this thread, due to the date said article was last updated. also, i'm going to go ahead and guess that the celts get +1 faith from worked forest tiles, since we're not sure of exactly how "faith from forests" works yet.

i'm also going to agree with the people saying that carthage will be a warrior-merchant civilization with a naval unique unit, though i'd still prefer a militaristic city-state bonus over a simple purchase discount.


...there is no current UA that resembles anything close to [a city attack bonus]...

not exactly true. the mongols get a bonus against city-state cities, not just their units.

Louis XXIV
Mar 30, 2012, 04:58 AM
It would also quite weaken the Mandekalu to give someone else that power with all of their units.

Beefie
Mar 30, 2012, 07:27 AM
Sorry Gucumatz, didn't mean to offend! Just making a joke on (western) pop culture.

I suggested in the past a free social policy (or at least a culture boost) every time they hit a full calendar cycle (one of those cycles takes place in 2012), but I think they occur too frequently early in the game.

That sounds like an interesting idea, but a free social policy each time might be a bit overpowered. Maybe a different boost for each cycle, depending on what they want to encourage, like for the first cycle farms produce extra food to encourage growth, second cycle increases the production of great prophets....etc
Well as it's a game they wouldn't need to represent every cycle, just what would keep the Mayans unique but balanced

awesome
Mar 30, 2012, 12:44 PM
i'm hoping someone gets a monument replacement, maybe with a point of faith

anandus
Mar 30, 2012, 01:26 PM
i'm hoping someone gets a monument replacement, maybe with a point of faithThat screams 'Stele for Ethiopia' :)

Gucumatz
Mar 30, 2012, 01:26 PM
Sorry Gucumatz, didn't mean to offend! Just making a joke on (western) pop culture.



That sounds like an interesting idea, but a free social policy each time might be a bit overpowered. Maybe a different boost for each cycle, depending on what they want to encourage, like for the first cycle farms produce extra food to encourage growth, second cycle increases the production of great prophets....etc
Well as it's a game they wouldn't need to represent every cycle, just what would keep the Mayans unique but balanced

None taken.

=======

And I still think Louis's suggestion is still the best I have heard. But would be hard to define on the description. The bonsues would obviously be scripted and would be hard to write down for a single simple UA description.

That being said it would be really cool. It could work maybe as a random chance wheel with certain boosts being more probable. Like 5-10% of a free policy, 5-10% of a Free Tech, 5-10% of a Great Person of your choice, 30-40% of a Culture Boost 30-40% for Faith Boost. So around every so many "X" turns after getting Calender you would randomly get one of these boosts.

Something like that would be pretty cool.

Montov
Mar 30, 2012, 02:12 PM
1 free Policy at Calendar would be the simplest implementation.. I hope it looks more like the great suggestions in this thread.

theadder
Mar 30, 2012, 02:53 PM
1 free Policy at Calendar would be the simplest implementation.. I hope it looks more like the great suggestions in this thread.

That's doesn't seem like enough. Unless it was coupled with something else as well? Unsure what, though.

Lord Olleus
Mar 30, 2012, 03:18 PM
1 free Policy at Calendar and double great prophet generation rate? Would mirror the Babylonians pretty well

GenjiKhan
Mar 30, 2012, 03:44 PM
1 free Policy at Calendar and double great prophet generation rate? Would mirror the Babylonians pretty well

Depending on how powerful the Great Prophet is,it might be better to change it to +50% Great Prophet generation rate instead 100% . And I think I'd be better they receive a bonus when researched Astronomy instead Calendar,since the end of Mayan's calendary is based on the movement of stars .

anandus
Apr 07, 2012, 06:19 AM
So we know that Austria is in.

Will the Hussars be one of their unique units? Wouldn't suprise me.

Art Grin
Apr 07, 2012, 06:41 AM
I think Austria is going to have the Hussar and an opera-house, replacing the theater. Another possibility is the Jäger/Grenzer, it would replace the rifleman and have faster movement speed in forests and inside friendly territory.

blackcatatonic
Apr 07, 2012, 07:04 AM
...but there's already an Opera House in the game...

Instead of that, I'd suggest a Concert Hall, replacing the Opera House, giving additional Culture and maybe a gold bonus.

Art Grin
Apr 07, 2012, 07:19 AM
...but there's already an Opera House in the game...

Instead of that, I'd suggest a Concert Hall, replacing the Opera House, giving additional Culture and maybe a gold bonus.

Oops, my bad I totally forgot there was an Opera House in Civ5. My idea was for Austria to have a better culture building than the other civs, like the Concert Hall you suggested.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 07:40 AM
I suspect Austria will have a Hussar and a cultural building of some kind. While I could see two UUs, I think there are better candidates and variety is always good (I suspect the Mayans will have a unique building, but I can't think of another that will).

anandus
Apr 07, 2012, 07:46 AM
Yeah, an opera house replacement for Austria makes sense.

GenjiKhan
Apr 07, 2012, 07:52 AM
If they have a UB to replace Opera house,I think a bonus to generate GA (instead a boring + :c5culture: bonus) would be more interesting .

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 07:52 AM
Does anyone think they'll have Budapest as a city?

Art Grin
Apr 07, 2012, 07:58 AM
Maybe, but Prague isn't so I doubt Budapest will be. Would be funny if there an achievement for the Austrians for which you need to marry both Prague and Budapest.:lol:

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 07:59 AM
Good point about Prague. Plus, they're really stripping militaristic city-states from the list so it's good to leave it around.

Monthar
Apr 07, 2012, 08:12 AM
After finally getting that video interview to buffer enough to actually watch it without the pauses, I learned that I was partially correct about the Huns' UA. They raze cities faster than normal.

Cicero63
Apr 07, 2012, 09:12 AM
What would be the colors of Austria? Austria in Civ 5 is based on the Hapsburg Monarchy, whose colors are yellow and black which are the same as Russia's in Civ. I am pretty confident that the unique units for Austria will be a Jaeger and a Hussar

awesome
Apr 07, 2012, 09:28 AM
if they go with hussar, i wonder if it'll replace the knight or the lancer. i'd prefer lancer, since it probably fits more with the time frame and there are already a million knight replacements, but nothing upgrades to lancers.

Pangur Bán
Apr 08, 2012, 08:28 PM
Not sure why the Celts would have a UB with a Spanish namae.

With the religious aspect of the game, maybe the Celts with have a religious building, maybe nemeton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemeton), symbol stone or Pictish stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_stone), or goodness forbid, stone circle. Or maybe a dun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun) like in Civ 4.

Want to know what their next UU is. Coracle? Galloglass? Druid? Highlander?

Captain Fargle
Apr 08, 2012, 09:23 PM
What would be the colors of Austria? Austria in Civ 5 is based on the Hapsburg Monarchy, whose colors are yellow and black which are the same as Russia's in Civ. I am pretty confident that the unique units for Austria will be a Jaeger and a Hussar

Austria's colours are White on Red as shown in the PAX demo.

Gucumatz
Apr 08, 2012, 10:44 PM
Maybe, but Prague isn't so I doubt Budapest will be. Would be funny if there an achievement for the Austrians for which you need to marry both Prague and Budapest.:lol:

I almost guarentee this (willing to bet on this). Had to check some hmwk before Spring Break ended. Somehow I ended on civfanatics again lol.

If it isn't an achievment I would do it anyways just for fun.

Rex_Mundi
Apr 12, 2012, 07:34 AM
I guess the Austrian civ will include some Hungarian aspects, could be a midieval unit.

A longshot would be a Hungarian inspired Knight replacement and a Husar inspired Cavalry replacement.

But they definately need something special that is culture related.

Grubnessul
Apr 12, 2012, 07:47 AM
Hungarian Hussars or Grenzers would come to mind as UU for Austria. UB, I don't know. Viennese coffee house? :p

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 12, 2012, 08:10 AM
Probably something replacing the Opera House, IMO.

SammyKhalifa
Apr 12, 2012, 08:38 AM
Probably something replacing the Opera House, IMO.

It's what I'd choose.

ehecatzin
Apr 12, 2012, 10:09 PM
After giving it some tought I came up with my guess for the Mayans, something to reflect their focus on calendars and how they used it to develop their intensive agriculture.


UA- Land of Pheasant and Deer

Gets a Free great Prophet with calendar, recieve faith every time a city grows.

UU: Atl atl, I guess its a composite bowman with bonus movement.
UI: Cenote Shrine- it replaces the Lumber Mill, +2 hammer, (another +1 after reseaching Civil Service), counts as fresh water source. Can only be built on jungle tiles.

----------

Ok the idea behind this is to have the Mayans being able to create a tall religous empire with a strong middle game.

Playing Mayans you should strive to making your cities grow, even if the faith bonus was small, it would help in spreading your religion. Free Prophet at calendar helps in this regard, plus you want to get those plantations as fast as possible anyway.

The jungle is a production hell...not for the Mayans, here's where the UI gets into play and its very important. The Mayan lumber Mill replacement, the Cenote Shrine, generates +2 hammers (to override the jungle penalty) and allows you to get that needed extra production. It also works as Oasis, allowing you to generate enough food to keep your cities growing. Spawning without rivers and hills in the middle of jungle oceans doesnt sound so bad now..wich is precisely what the Mayans did in real life.

Late game The mayans are not as competitive due to their faith focus, but can still manage, get University and your jungle tiles get even more valuable. Even if you dont spawn near jungles, the bonus faith on growth and free Prophet would be helpful.

So, what do you think?

awesome
Apr 13, 2012, 11:06 AM
i have a feeling that the maya will be getting a ball court, since the aztec and inca have had either their unit or building return in name, respectively, and i'm expecting the maya to follow that. i know the terrace is an improvement instead of building this time, but it's still called a terrace.

also, unique improvements don't replace anything.

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 11:15 AM
I suspect Ball Court as well. The bigger question is what it replaces. I could see Circus where it doesn't require horses.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
Personally, I'd like to see a Mayan Observatory that doesn't have the mountain requirement and gives a small faith bonus. It would play to their Mayan Calender theme too.

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 11:21 AM
Yeah, but do they need to double count the calendar theme?

shaglio
Apr 13, 2012, 12:34 PM
I suspect Ball Court as well. The bigger question is what it replaces. I could see Circus where it doesn't require horses.

Maybe it could replace the Colliseum (which really should be a Roman UB rather than a civ-wide building, anyway).

chazzycat
Apr 13, 2012, 01:38 PM
I think a ball court as coloseum replacement with +faith is likely. Ritual sacrifice was a big part of the game IIRC.

I would also like to see a temple/obseratory type building. I think a temple with science benefit would be better, but observatories with faith would work too.

I am really hoping they get 2 UBs though to differentiate them from the more warlike Aztecs

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 01:40 PM
We already know they have a UU, the Atlatl.

chazzycat
Apr 13, 2012, 01:43 PM
oh we do....d'oh. must have missed that :(

Gucumatz
Apr 13, 2012, 03:59 PM
I think a ball court as coloseum replacement with +faith is likely. Ritual sacrifice was a big part of the game IIRC.

I would also like to see a temple/obseratory type building. I think a temple with science benefit would be better, but observatories with faith would work too.

I am really hoping they get 2 UBs though to differentiate them from the more warlike Aztecs

I am not really a fan of an observatory for the UB. A Step Pyramid/Ball Court would be better I think. While looking at something like Caracol is cool... there really weren't many observatories.

Plus I am afraid they will butcher the Calender UA, so don't want them to double butcher it.

chazzycat
Apr 13, 2012, 04:54 PM
Yeah I think the best UB would be a step pyramid temple with a science benefit, over an observatory replacement. Wonder if they would consider giving a scientist slot in the temple. That could be cool.

Beefie
Apr 13, 2012, 05:25 PM
Do you think any other civ will get a UI like the Dutch, or is 1 in 9 enough?
And what about two unique units? We know the Huns and Carthage have two, and many suspect cataphracts will join the dromon to give Byzantine two as well.
I think the Celts will have two UUs and the rest one of each, as any ideas I can think of a unique building seem boring or better unique buildings exist (i.e In what way can the Dun be better than the Walls of Babylon, unless they give it something unrealistic like a faith bonus)

Uberfrog
Apr 13, 2012, 05:50 PM
Do you think any other civ will get a UI like the Dutch, or is 1 in 9 enough?
And what about two unique units? We know the Huns and Carthage have two, and many suspect cataphracts will join the dromon to give Byzantine two as well.
I think the Celts will have two UUs and the rest one of each, as any ideas I can think of a unique building seem boring or better unique buildings exist (i.e In what way can the Dun be better than the Walls of Babylon, unless they give it something unrealistic like a faith bonus)

I actually think a UI is preferable to a UB: both in terms of them actually being visible objects on the map, and also in that they can be more meaningfully different. With buildings, construction can often be a no-brainer, especially things like the Paper Maker ("Oh, so my library also produces gold, that's cool I guess."). The two UIs currently in-game, and the upcoming Polder are completely unique in that they don't actually replace anything at all.

Even just in terms of coolness I think, if there exist two exciting UUs, they'll include them. If not, I'd rather a nice UI over a UB. They can certainly do better than Duns.

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 06:06 PM
Let's go through the list for possible UIs.
Carthage - No
Huns - No
Austrians - Probably Not
Byzantines - Probably Not
Maya - Maybe, but I can't think of any
Celts - Possibly
Ethiopia - Possibly
Mystery Civ - Possibly

Gucumatz
Apr 13, 2012, 09:04 PM
Let's go through the list for possible UIs.
Carthage - No
Huns - No
Austrians - Probably Not
Byzantines - Probably Not
Maya - Maybe, but I can't think of any
Celts - Possibly
Ethiopia - Possibly
Mystery Civ - Possibly

For the Maya you could have the UI: Cenote and the Step Pyramid could work as a UI. I like to joke with family whenever I am in Guatemala that every other hill is actually a ruin. But really there are so many ruins and pyramids all across the Maya world that it could be a UI. Its not what people picture when they think of the Maya, but the Jungles had shrunk a great deal with the extreme urbanization our ancestors achieved.

Gucumatz
Apr 13, 2012, 09:13 PM
I wish we knew more about the scribes of our people and where codices were held. You hear the occasional story of the Spanish Priest who tried to save some of our books only for them to be burned... but I think we will still find more about our former literature.

When Flores fell to the Spaniards it was supposedly the last stronghold of our codices. Supposedly the Cruzobs who went on fighting for decades and established a new form of religion brought some of these books to Belize and I am sure as time passes we will find more of our past literature.

Its just a shame when I think about it...

ehecatzin
Apr 14, 2012, 12:14 AM
I actually tought of a UI trading post for jungles, or in tiles next to them, mainly because it would look really cool to see temples spreading beyond the city. But my idea is that the Mayans should be able to take advantage of the terrain in a tropical start bias.

Despite all their achivements in the astronomical and mathematical areas, I cant picture them as a civ comepletely focused on science, we have Babylon and Korea for that. After all they always were a Theocracy, religion was everywhere, in construction, art, the calendar, even their numbers had deities corresponding to them. Even colonial and modern mayans had the core at their resistance in faith.

I hope they take advantage of that and give them a UA to reflect that particular flavor, faith based with a side science bonus.

If they go with the ball court thats fine, but I would like to see something unique to reflect that particular flavor.

Louis XXIV
Apr 14, 2012, 08:13 AM
Atlatl might have jungle bonuses, fwiw.

Beefie
Apr 14, 2012, 10:20 AM
Atlatl might have jungle bonuses, fwiw.

While your probably right, I hope they come up with something new to differentiate it from the jaguar.

Louis XXIV
Apr 14, 2012, 10:51 AM
Allow it to reach its full range while in jungle? (i.e., selective blind fire for jungle).

Beefie
Apr 14, 2012, 11:10 AM
That could work, or something I was thinking of was maybe a poison effect where units hit by an atlatl suffer small damage per turn until they return to their own territory/cities? Might be too powerful, maybe until they heal next to a fresh water tile or unit with medic?
Or maybe even those units hit by an atlatl suffer a strength reduction penalty like the maori ability which lasts for a set number of turns.

ehecatzin
Apr 14, 2012, 11:33 AM
Allow it to reach its full range while in jungle? (i.e., selective blind fire for jungle).

That sounds like a really cool hability, you could actually manage to harras enemy guerrilla style.

shaglio
Apr 16, 2012, 09:27 AM
For the Maya you could have the UI: Cenote and the Step Pyramid could work as a UI. I like to joke with family whenever I am in Guatemala that every other hill is actually a ruin. But really there are so many ruins and pyramids all across the Maya world that it could be a UI. Its not what people picture when they think of the Maya, but the Jungles had shrunk a great deal with the extreme urbanization our ancestors achieved.

As I've said before, I doubt they'll have a Cenote as a UI. AFAIK, the Mayans didn't actually dig cenotes, they're a pre-existing terrain feature of the Yucatan landscape. Step Pyramids, on the other hand, could be a UI that generates faith (similar to Polynesia's UI that generates culture & gives a combat bonus to nearby units).

SammyKhalifa
Apr 16, 2012, 09:30 AM
That could work, or something I was thinking of was maybe a poison effect where units hit by an atlatl suffer small damage per turn until they return to their own territory/cities? Might be too powerful, maybe until they heal next to a fresh water tile or unit with medic?
Or maybe even those units hit by an atlatl suffer a strength reduction penalty like the maori ability which lasts for a set number of turns.

My guess is that they're spearmen that also have a ranged attack.

Lord Olleus
Apr 16, 2012, 09:46 AM
A composite bowman with indirect fire could be very interesting. Similar to the longbowman for England. That would be a fun unit to play with, and lead to an awesome upgrade path.

Gucumatz
Apr 16, 2012, 03:05 PM
As I've said before, I doubt they'll have a Cenote as a UI. AFAIK, the Mayans didn't actually dig cenotes, they're a pre-existing terrain feature of the Yucatan landscape. Step Pyramids, on the other hand, could be a UI that generates faith (similar to Polynesia's UI that generates culture & gives a combat bonus to nearby units).

I know that; but they did become interesting places of worship. I guess improvement wouldn't be the best term for it but caves and cenotes were used throughout Maya culture and civilization. (Which is why I think Cenotes could work as a UI)

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 16, 2012, 03:32 PM
How about instead of calling the UI a cenote, call it a Cenote Temple or something, and it's built on jungle. That way you're taking an existing, natural structure (the cenote) and building a religious complex on it which is the Tile Improvement.

ehecatzin
Apr 16, 2012, 07:29 PM
pretty much what I tought off.

I wish they gave some more info on the Maya, its worrying me that its going to be something cheesy related to 2012.

Xen
Apr 17, 2012, 09:24 AM
Haven't read through to see if its mentioned as a possibility, because I'm lazy in regards to thread reading, and won't do that. So apologies if this a rehash.

I can see the Celts (in theory) getting an Oppidum/Hill fort UB. probably a castle (or wall) replacement that is cheaper or gives faith points, or something along those lines.

Of course what I can see and what they'll do are two very different things.

Also, I want the Byzantines to have Cataphracts. Not having them would be a buzz kill to end buzz kills, even atop the leader of Theodora.

Stefanskantine
Apr 17, 2012, 10:57 AM
The Byz will get a Cataphract, it is their most iconic feature.

The rest are wild guesses:
Maya: plantation replacement terrain improvement.
Celts: either a "woad raider" type longsword replacement or a special barracks or defensive building.
Ethiopia: stele probably, implemented like civ IV

That brings us to Austria:

UB: Pastry shop. Replaces market. +2 food.
UU: von Trapp singers. Replaces worker. Build improvements 10% slower, but can enter "singing" mode that produces +2 culture per turn.

SammyKhalifa
Apr 17, 2012, 11:03 AM
Haven't read through to see if its mentioned as a possibility, because I'm lazy in regards to thread reading, and won't do that. So apologies if this a rehash.

I can see the Celts (in theory) getting an Oppidum/Hill fort UB. probably a castle (or wall) replacement that is cheaper or gives faith points, or something along those lines.

Of course what I can see and what they'll do are two very different things.

Also, I want the Byzantines to have Cataphracts. Not having them would be a buzz kill to end buzz kills, even atop the leader of Theodora.


A "Fort" IU replacement might be interesting.

Louis XXIV
Apr 17, 2012, 11:05 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think the Dunn is a possibility. Make it like the Motte and Bailey from the Norman Conquest scenario. Essentially, a fort that acts similarly to a Citadel. Limit it so it can only be built on hills.

In the past, I thought they were going to get a second UU. However, I see that others are stronger candidates, so I no longer think that's the case.

shaglio
Apr 17, 2012, 02:11 PM
I know that; but they did become interesting places of worship. I guess improvement wouldn't be the best term for it but caves and cenotes were used throughout Maya culture and civilization. (Which is why I think Cenotes could work as a UI)

I was thinking they should make Cenotes a new Jungle feature similar to Oases in the Desert and Atolls in the Ocean.

SkaisonFire
Apr 24, 2012, 12:03 PM
What do YOU think is going to be the mayan UA?

Is it going to be amazingly fun and unique?
Or just some bonus culture after a set amount of turns?

Discuss!

Sorry, we already have a thread for that :( -> threads merged.

SkaisonFire
Apr 24, 2012, 12:34 PM
That could work, or something I was thinking of was maybe a poison effect where units hit by an atlatl suffer small damage per turn until they return to their own territory/cities? Might be too powerful, maybe until they heal next to a fresh water tile or unit with medic?
Or maybe even those units hit by an atlatl suffer a strength reduction penalty like the maori ability which lasts for a set number of turns.

How about the units hit by an atlatl cant heal from fortifying or something like that?

Louis XXIV
Apr 24, 2012, 12:37 PM
That's overpowered.

SkaisonFire
Apr 24, 2012, 12:40 PM
Wasn't it confirmed that the maya follow a different calendar than other civs btw?
I really recall hearing about that somewhere.

Gucumatz
Apr 24, 2012, 04:47 PM
Wasn't it confirmed that the maya follow a different calendar than other civs btw?
I really recall hearing about that somewhere.

I have to say that would be cool. But no, all we know is there will be calender related bonuses.

And they wouldn't even have to use the Long Count. They could use the Haab. Our 365 day calender rather than the famous "2012" associated one lol :p, but could still use the appropriate hieroglyphs XD. Dreaming a bit now haha.

Also seeing as there is an achievment for the Maya if they nuke someone in 2012, I wonder if the Maya will be programmed with a high Nuke Flavor like Gandhi?

MadDjinn
Apr 24, 2012, 04:49 PM
Also seeing as there is an achievment for the Maya if they nuke someone in 2012, I wonder if the Maya will be programmed with a high Nuke Flavor like Gandhi?

Free Nuke at the end of every cycle? Make sure that you go out with a 'bang' :goodjob:

awesome
Apr 24, 2012, 08:32 PM
so that's what they meant when they said the world would end




even though they didn't

Gucumatz
Apr 24, 2012, 10:34 PM
so that's what they meant when they said the world would end




even though they didn't

Again I am fine with a degree of cheesiness. And even falsity to a degree. And even manipulation... but I don't want them to be too cheesy/manipulative/liarish :lol:

I understand it could become a fun marketing point to have something involving the 2012 hysteria. And I am more than willing to overlook it. I just hope they don't go to crazy and mess up the civ entirely to try and take advantage of a hysteria. (And by this I mean ruin the UA/UU/UB or whatever they may try and relate to the calender)

MadDjinn
Apr 24, 2012, 10:42 PM
Again I am fine with a degree of cheesiness. And even falsity to a degree. And even manipulation... but I don't want them to be too cheesy/manipulative/liarish :lol:

I understand it could become a fun marketing point to have something involving the 2012 hysteria. And I am more than willing to overlook it. I just hope they don't go to crazy and mess up the civ entirely to try and take advantage of a hysteria. (And by this I mean ruin the UA/UU/UB or whatever they may try and relate to the calender)

Pretty sure nuking a city in 2012 has nothing to do with the UX's. It's just a fun achievement. The real achievement may be forcing the game to last that long. :crazyeye:

apocalypse105
Apr 27, 2012, 06:18 AM
Care to post a source?

schreenshots

ShahJahanII
Apr 29, 2012, 11:15 AM
schreenshots
:lol:
That was over 2 months ago.
We have plenty of evidence now