View Full Version : no mesoamerican religion?


vanDietsland
Feb 23, 2012, 08:41 AM
So it seems that there will be no mesoamerican religion. Why is that? What are your thoughts about this?

Johan de Witt
Feb 23, 2012, 08:46 AM
So it seems that there will be no mesoamerican religion. Why is that? What are your thoughts about this?

Isn't that bird picture a mesoamerican religion?

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 08:46 AM
No Mesoamerican religion (i.e., no Aztec and no Maya since I don't think they were directly connected), no Incan religion, no Mississippian religion, no Sioux religion, no Haida religion (and other Totem cultures), no Pueblo religion, no Greek religion, no Norse religion, no Sumerian religion, no Jana'ism, etc.

You can't possibly represent every religion in the game. I think there were plenty that were just as interesting if not more interesting than the Aztec religion.

seasnake
Feb 23, 2012, 08:59 AM
I think given the amount of information we have on the Mayan Faith and that we have the mayan scriptures (Popol Vuh) it would have made the most sense. Too bad, but you can't accomodate everything.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 09:06 AM
I think Tengriism (Johan de Witt, that's what the bird symbol is) is an odd choice. It doesn't seem to have the same organization compared to the other founded religions.

That being said, all the religions they added are current religions. I'm not sure who still worships Quezalcoatl.

OrsonM
Feb 23, 2012, 09:29 AM
Well, if I had a choice... then yeah, I'd totally be worshiping Quetzalcoatl or a solar deity. I mean it's meant to be a fun game in the end.

But there could be some clutter though...

Johan de Witt
Feb 23, 2012, 09:49 AM
I think Tengriism (Johan de Witt, that's what the bird symbol is) is an odd choice. It doesn't seem to have the same organization compared to the other founded religions.
Ah, I see. Well, 2K stated that they added two odd religions. Probably just for fun.

Well, if I had a choice... then yeah, I'd totally be worshiping Quetzalcoatl or a solar deity. I mean it's meant to be a fun game in the end.

But there could be some clutter though...
Perhaps you can change the name in-game? Otherwise, more religions can (probably) be added through mods.

Also... You can convert to Quetzalcoatl in real life if it means that much to you ;)

Green Tico
Feb 23, 2012, 10:56 AM
Ah, I see. Well, 2K stated that they added two odd religions. Probably just for fun.

Zoroastrianism is definitely the other 'odd' religion. I'm guessing the second to last one in the screenshot, next to Zoroastrianism, is some type of animist-new-world-religion that covers the bases for the 4 Native American Civs.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 11:26 AM
There is no animist religion (the closest is the Mongolian tengriism religion). However, the way they describe the pantheon (as opposed to organized religion) seems decently close. It seems possible to develop a spiritual pantheon involving animals as deities.

Uberfrog
Feb 23, 2012, 12:13 PM
There is no animist religion (the closest is the Mongolian tengriism religion). However, the way they describe the pantheon (as opposed to organized religion) seems decently close. It seems possible to develop a spiritual pantheon involving animals as deities.

Yes. My limited understanding with what we've got so far is that the early-game "Pantheon" is by way of representing the Hellenic, Mesoamerican, and Norse, etc., polytheisms, as well as various other pagan and animist beliefs. In fact we've already heard about being able to pick "Gods of the Sea" and "Stone Circle" beliefs to suit your starting conditions. This is a fair enough representation in my view.

Plus, you can rename your organised religion to whatever you like (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454629).

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 12:26 PM
Yeah, I'm impressed with the thought they've put into religion. While it still seems like a useful game mechanic, it also feels like it does a decent job of representing the changes in religion that have developed throughout history.

Much better than Buddhism always being founded before Hinduism ;)

GoodSarmatian
Feb 23, 2012, 12:28 PM
Animism and the GreeK, Norse and other pagan religions are represented by the early pantheon beliefs, but it is really disappointing that there's nothing representing a major native american religin even if they're quite obscure and hardly have any followers now.

They really could have left out Tengriism instead.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 12:30 PM
I personally think they should have left Tengriism out just because 10 is a much better number than 11.

Eagle Pursuit
Feb 23, 2012, 12:44 PM
There is still plenty to be revealed about the Beliefs.

I suspect that core tenets of other religions will be represented in the Pantheon list.

Also, It appears that you can rename your religion, much as you can rename a city. Just make the name what you like, adopt the pantheon of your choice and BOOM, your own personal cult sweeps the globe.

I really like this system. I hope there is a Fertility Goddess pantheon belief. That will be a fun concept to base a religion around. I will elevate Spring Equinox and Harvest Feasts to be the ultimate holidays of the year and wait till you hear my ideas on 'celebrating' Valentine's Day!

MaximusK
Feb 23, 2012, 01:15 PM
There is still plenty to be revealed about the Beliefs.

I suspect that core tenets of other religions will be represented in the Pantheon list.

Also, It appears that you can rename your religion, much as you can rename a city. Just make the name what you like, adopt the pantheon of your choice and BOOM, your own personal cult sweeps the globe.

I really like this system. I hope there is a Fertility Goddess pantheon belief. That will be a fun concept to base a religion around. I will elevate Spring Equinox and Harvest Feasts to be the ultimate holidays of the year and wait till you hear my ideas on 'celebrating' Valentine's Day!

Not only can religions be renamed but there is only a certain number of beliefs that you can adopt for your religion. So your right, rename the religion and adopt the beliefs you feel are in line with the religion you envision and roll with that. A simple mod will also change the symbol no doubt.

With the religions implemented there is going to be a wide range of different types of beliefs, adding new religions probably would necessitate further beliefs, and there is only so many possibilities.

AriochIV
Feb 23, 2012, 04:29 PM
Since the religions are completely customizable (right down to the name), the only thing you're stuck with is the icon. Beyond that, you can make any religion you want.

LAnkou
Feb 23, 2012, 04:55 PM
I personally think they should have left Tengriism out just because 10 is a much better number than 11.

These go to eleven!!!

Everyone knows it's better when you can go to eleven

CivilizedPlayer
Feb 23, 2012, 06:03 PM
Well Tengriism is a religion that worships animals, spirits, and the natural world. So it's similar in concept to Mesoamerican religions, even if it isn't from the same location. It's main difference is that people (albeit an extremely tiny minority) still follow Tengriism today. Which is probably why they chose it.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 06:12 PM
I don't think the Aztecs worshiped animals, unless you count one very specific feathered serpent.

MilesGregarius
Feb 23, 2012, 06:33 PM
That being said, all the religions they added are current religions. I'm not sure who still worships Quezalcoatl.

Can't say about Quetzalcoatl (who isn't natively Mayan, anyway) per se, but Mayan religion is alive and kicking among the highland Maya in Guatemala.

trueblue
Feb 23, 2012, 06:36 PM
no mesoamerican religion.

Louis XXIV
Feb 23, 2012, 06:42 PM
Can't say about Quetzalcoatl (who isn't natively Mayan, anyway) per se, but Mayan religion is alive and kicking among the highland Maya in Guatemala.

Well, the thread says Mesoamerican, so I've been picking on the Aztecs instead of the Mayans.

While the Mayan religion is alive, I don't know about kicking. Plus, it seems to be a hybrid today.

Thorburne
Feb 23, 2012, 06:43 PM
These go to eleven!!!

Everyone knows it's better when you can go to eleven

:lol:

I've never actually seen the movie, but I know what you are referring to. Good ol' Rob Reiner and Christopher Guest!

chazzycat
Feb 23, 2012, 06:55 PM
I personally think they should have left Tengriism out just because 10 is a much better number than 11.

I know, right? It seems so random. There is a pretty solid list of 10 widely recognizable world religions. Who had the genius idea "hey, you know 11 is a much better number than 10. Let's find another religion no one has ever heard of and stick it in there"

Not that I'm complaining, it just seems a bit odd.

CivilizedPlayer
Feb 23, 2012, 07:05 PM
Tengriism is good because:
1) It has a cool name
2) It has a cool symbol
Furthermore, the religions don't vary between each other. At all. And it appears that you can rename the religions anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

Gucumatz
Feb 23, 2012, 07:48 PM
Well, the thread says Mesoamerican, so I've been picking on the Aztecs instead of the Mayans.

While the Mayan religion is alive, I don't know about kicking. Plus, it seems to be a hybrid today.

Yep not kicking nowadays for sure. But back then it was a major religion. There are several different cults of the old religion though.

While everything that survived became hybridized (See Maximon aka Saint Judas, worshipping of certain specific other Saints and shrines scattered throughout Mexico and Guatemala for some of these obscure Saints picked to act as fronts for old gods, Easter Sunday ceremonies etc.) it is amazing that even some of the old culture survived after the epidemics and persecution of the old culture.

There are still shamans that carry on a ton of old practices but I am not sure the original meanings have been preserved. I have heard from my family and my father practices that people would get Shamans to do if they were sick or in need. (My dad has told me about how his mother would get a shaman to perform some sort of egg ritual and something with incense when he was a kid).

Glassmage
Feb 23, 2012, 07:50 PM
You can rename the bird symbol to Mesoamerican religion and it still fits.

billb
Feb 23, 2012, 08:00 PM
I don't think the Aztecs worshiped animals, unless you count one very specific feathered serpent.

Can't actually say they were worshiped, but they did have Eagle and Jaguar warriors.

KrikkitTwo
Feb 24, 2012, 12:37 PM
It seems you Start with a "religion". (a religion that is strictly limited to your civ though) You can then get a World religion, which you can rename and give custom benefits.

Birdjaguar
Feb 24, 2012, 01:03 PM
Can't actually say they were worshiped, but they did have Eagle and Jaguar warriors.

The Bird and Jaguar go quite well together as symbols of extraordinary greatness and world domination.

Kimuyama
Feb 24, 2012, 01:42 PM
Yep not kicking nowadays for sure. But back then it was a major religion. There are several different cults of the old religion though.

While everything that survived became hybridized (See Maximon aka Saint Judas, worshipping of certain specific other Saints and shrines scattered throughout Mexico and Guatemala for some of these obscure Saints picked to act as fronts for old gods, Easter Sunday ceremonies etc.) it is amazing that even some of the old culture survived after the epidemics and persecution of the old culture.

There are still shamans that carry on a ton of old practices but I am not sure the original meanings have been preserved. I have heard from my family and my father practices that people would get Shamans to do if they were sick or in need. (My dad has told me about how his mother would get a shaman to perform some sort of egg ritual and something with incense when he was a kid).
It's basically the same that happened to the West African Slave religion (vodou/voodoo) and the Incan Religion, keep a lot of the old stuff but disguise it as christian.

Since they allow religions to be so costumisable I really wish they'd add more symbols and not keep the number at 11. Such religions as Hellenism, Norse/Germanic paganism (a blanket term to cover a larger area than just Scandinavia, they're basically the same anyways, Thor vs. Donar/Donner), Mesoamerican (again, a blanket term, lots of similarities in the region, like the mayan Kukulkan vs. Aztec Quetzalcoatl), Jainism and Vodou.

Though, as an argument against Hellenic, Norse and Mesoamerican religions, they're basically a bunch of similar local nature beliefs, as opposed to a unifying "idea" characteristic to the religions available in the upcoming expansion.

KrikkitTwo
Feb 24, 2012, 01:49 PM
It's basically the same that happened to the West African Slave religion (vodou/voodoo) and the Incan Religion, keep a lot of the old stuff but disguise it as christian.

Since they allow religions to be so costumisable I really wish they'd add more symbols and not keep the number at 11. Such religions as Hellenism, Norse/Germanic paganism (a blanket term to cover a larger area than just Scandinavia, they're basically the same anyways, Thor vs. Donar/Donner), Mesoamerican (again, a blanket term, lots of similarities in the region, like the mayan Kukulkan vs. Aztec Quetzalcoatl), Jainism and Vodou.

Though, as an argument against Hellenic, Norse and Mesoamerican religions, they're basically a bunch of similar local nature beliefs, as opposed to a unifying "idea" characteristic to the religions available in the upcoming expansion.

And that apparently is modelled already, you can aparently add "Beliefs" to your 'local pantheon' seperate from getting a 'world religion'.

Kimuyama
Feb 24, 2012, 01:52 PM
Are you saying one can have a local belief AND a world religion?
That would be quite neat, and accurate, not even christianity is the same in every region of the world, even though it has the same unifying idea everywhere.

KrikkitTwo
Feb 24, 2012, 01:53 PM
Are you saying one can have a local belief AND a world religion?
That would be quite neat, and accurate, not even christianity is the same in every region of the world, even though it has the same unifying idea everywhere.

Well the world religion Might replace the local belief, I'm not sure.

But the local belief gets customizable bonuses.